Connor: Where were you in Iran or the world during the Revolution? Ghahremani: I was in the United States.

I was teaching at Northwestern University, Chicago and busy raising my small children. Connor: When was it that you wrote your book? Ghahremani: I started writing it, if you can believe it, 24 years ago. And in the process of writing that, and rewriting it and changing it, I wrote three other books but I wanted this to be the first one out. And the reason I had to rewrite it, of course, is because of current events and the fact that the ending constantly changed. Ben: Now about the Revolution, I noticed in the first few parts of the book, we realized that in the household they weren't allowed to talk about the Shah, or the dad didn't want them to talk about the SAVAK. Did all people feel that way like the SAVAK really were everywhere it seems? Ghahremani: Yes. The rumor was that if you were five people anywhere, one of you could be a SAVAK member. So you could imagine how careful we were. And we would hear stories of people who got into trouble just saying something in a taxi or any public place, and were reported. Connor: So can tell us about your inspiration for the book? Ghahremani: The inspiration for the book was mainly because I left iran in the early 1970s. And so I was not part of the movements and yet I was very close friends with someone who was. And, I do know for a fact that she does not want her voice to be heard and never did do anything about it. So I felt guilty about not having helped any of my friends that I had left behind and writing the book served that purpose. I felt that I could be their voices and let the world hear what they went through. That was the main inspiration but I also have three adult American children who would never know the truth unless someone who'd been there and knew it spoke up. And I wanted them to see that. Ben: So the SAVAK, I know, flew under the colors of being the peacekeepers of the country, they were the ones who watched the country, but was it more mostly founded because the Shah really was almost paranoid about a revolution happening? Was it his way of keeping the people in check, but at the same time having people see they were just there to protect the.... Ghahremani: It was really was just that. It was. The operations of savak were very much similar to Homeland Security as we have it now. And we have it now because we are in a way paranoid of being attacked again ever since 9/11 and that is a legitimate fear to have. The Shah had had several attempts on his life; he had been sent to exile once and came back. So he knew about all the parties that were working against him and the only way to keep them under control was to be informed of their activities. And so anything you did political would get you involved with

SAVAK and nothing else would, thats why our families didn't want us to even be involved in politics or know what is going on or express an opinion, for our own safety. Connor: Like you say ignorance is the best way to kinda protect your population and keep yourself with a strong iron fist ruling. Ghahremani: Thats what they said. I don't think ignorance is any good but that is, that was, the belief. And mind you, it is an ongoing process except that because SAVAK was an acronymnow with the Islamic Revolution adding a few more words in Persian its SAVAMA, the same acronym. And SAVAMA is so bad it makes SAVAK look good. So the process continues because history does repeat itself. Ben: So from that since the SAVAK was so awful and so terrible, but the new group that was implemented is just as bad if not worse, is their signs that maybe something like the Iranian Revolution can happen again? Ghahremani: Nothing lasts forever and as someone who loves her country I am hoping for a change. And thats why in my book, I use the metaphor of the red poppies. They are, in a way, the nation because they are beautiful. Theyre very vulnerable. They do have a hidden danger in them. They can easily be destroyed but you give them one good rain and they are back. And I can always hope for that rain. But, since I have not lived in that country for nearly forty years who am I to judge or predict. Ben: From the Iranian Revolution, was there any changes that were beneficial to Iran that really did help the country, really did help the people, because I know, under the Shah, there was a massive divide in the wealth? Has that changed or is that still the same as it was, if not worse? Ghahremani: As far as wealth and material things go, no, it has gone from bad to worse; in many aspects it has gone from bad to worse. However, if I want to be fair about it, yes. There has been a good too. And the good is that people became aware that what they think matters. What they do matters. Still to this day, it doesn't matter enough to make a huge change but before you could say it was a nation of lambs. They just did as they were told. And now the same people who were working- people who in my book you will see, they are the servants in the house or the farmers in the village, and they were doing nothing but obey the owner, they are not like that anymore. They go to school. They get educated; and they know that what they think or do makes a difference. Another good aspect has been, and I attribute that mostly to the Internet, because of the Internet and because of the world wide web, that little bubble- the glass bubble where my family raised me- has burst. So you can no longer keep a young person in total ignorance because all they have to do is a click of a button and they can see the world outside. And also education because of that has become a major priority because people, not for a good reason, they don't necessarily go to school to stay there and help the country but they go there as a means of opening a door to get out, finding a way to freedom for themselves. So the literacy has gone from 16% to, I recently heard, 72%, while the population has tripled. And so, this a major, major step. And one other aspect that has nothing to do with the progress

of the country probably, is that because of all the sanctions that the Islamic government brought about, anything that had to do with the West, people seem to delve into their own culture a little bit more and they seem to be more into poetry and Persian arts, and things like that. Ben: I noticed in your book it talks about the Little Black Fish. Ghahremani: Yes. Ben: I looked it up and its about this fish that is talking to its mom that it wants to find the end, like explore the new world. Why was this book, just being a childs book I believe, why did it have this negative connotation? Why did people fear that after reading that they would want to start seeking freedom? Ghahremani: When you don't want people to know anything about the outside world, the mere idea of a little black fish wanting to know an ocean is a hint. But, primarily this was translated that way because the author of the book was one of the strong oppositions to the Shah. So, he had a message in his book. But when I read it, I didn't think the message was that strong. And if you read it today, you will look at it as a very innocent book. Ben: We did look at it, and it was just like I want to go explore the lake, like find an end. Gharemani: Exactly. And to look at it in the free world, its a joke. Because actually, when you read it, you will see that the little fish never did anything wrong, never really dared to oppose anyone. He just went and explored and was scared away and went back. But, the mere idea was what they were afraid of. Tt was a seed that could be planted in peoples minds. Connor: Do you think the government today is as hyper-sensitive about an exterior thought process like the little fish? Gharemani: They are past that stage because they cannot ban such books, cannot limit, as I said, that glass bubble is no longer there. But, they are paranoid about it.They are. And I promise you, that even in this country, many of their informers are all over the place so that- I mean, talk is cheap, they are not worried about that. But, lets say tomorrow they find there is actually an organization whos doing something and investing time and money in overthrowing the government,they want to know about it; because they are afraid that the way they took over there are many people against them, so Im sure they know that there will be other who want them down. Connor: Do you think a tool like the Internet can be essential in that? Gharemani: The Internet is very important because the Internet is the way they communicate. Lets say someone your age wants to know how it is to live in the free world. Before they couldnt do it. Before you had to physically be there to talk to those young people. Now,as I said, with the click of a button,that window opens and they can see. You know a lot of young

people in Iran see movies for instance- the latest movies, the same time as you and I do because they have ways of hacking the computer and getting it illegally or buying it in the black market. They will do anything; which is understandable. They need to know what is going on in the world. Ben: Today with the new government because they came into power and then to suppress it, what is the stuff that they kind of look for now? What is it that is punishable? Because I know they cant prevent the talk, they cant prevent people from finding out but what is it that they really are looking for? What is it that they really want to prevent? Gharemani: The one thing that the government has tried to impose on people are strict Islamic rules. And Iran was fast progressing towards the open world, and I grew up living the same lifestyle as I am living here, maybe not with as many amenities available to me but the lifestyle was very much the same- going to the beach, or going swimming, or going dancing was not uncommon, it was just a way of life. But now, all of these are forbidden. Music is forbidden. Mixing of boys and girls is forbidden. You can only be seen with a member of the opposite sex if they are blood relatives of yours, or if you are married to them. So there are a lot of things that young people want to do and they are not allowed. And if they are seen doing that, then they are captured and many times imprisoned. Ben: Was this sudden change from under the Shah to now- was that sudden change a factor that caused many people to get upset about it? Gharemani: That was a major factor but it wasnt the only thing. Nothing as far as people could see, nothing improved. Their economic situation became worse; their international relationships became worse. Job security became worse. There were many, many other factors that even if their freedom had stayed the same as before, they still would have objected to it. Its the same everywhere; because especially now that they have a choice who they select when the voting is hacked, when somebody tampers with votes and who you want does not get selected. When the religious authorities push their opinion and act in a dictatorship manner, then people object and when they object, they are captured. The only difference is previously, the courts that tried these people, at least superficially, were very elaborate, whereas now they go by the order of the superiors. So if the Supreme Leader, the religious leader, says this person must be killed, they are killed no matter what the court says. Connor: Do you think this kind of strong arm rule, politically and religiously, do you think the youth would rather submit to that as just the way it is as life in Iran today? Or be more rebellious as the youth tends to be? Gharemani: At the moment they are not rebellious because they have seen too much of a loss. They have seen the Iran-Iraq War, and they are not willing to go into another war. But the ones I have spoken to that is what they wish- a change. And as I said, because I have not been inside the country in so many years, what Im telling you is at best a calculated guess.

Ben: With the Iranian Revolution, what was the major turning point where people really believed that this was going to happen, this change is going to come, and did they ever expect that someone like Khomeini would ever take- that religion would ever become part of the government? Did they ever expect this to happen? Gharemani: No. The fact is that the Islamic Revolution, I dont believe, would have had a chance if lets say people could see a clip of todays life before it happened. But what happened they thought- there are many good Muslims, I am not one, but there are many good ones, despite what the media tries to tell. Like all religions there are good and there are bad. And the ones you see acting up and sabotaging and the terrorists and all that, those are frustrated people. Its like saying the person who went and started shooting in Newtown is a typical Christian American; that is not the case. So, what they were hoping for is that the same way that Christianity over the years went from a very strict religion into a more modern practice, that someone would come and do the same about Islam- that they could practice their religion while still living a normal lifestyle like the rest of the world. Because in the old days, for instance, in Christianity, you couldnt go to a church is you were a woman with your hair showing. You would have to have a hat or a shawl or a scarf; or, I dont know if you have read the Scarlet Letter, but a woman who committed adultery was sentenced to being stoned to death. Now that is not practiced today because we have come a long way and those rules are abandoned but the religion is regularly being practiced. People do to church without their hat or scarf and people who have any kind of wrongdoing, whether it be adultery or robbery or whatever, they are punished accordingly but not more than they should be. So people were hoping that this is what was going to happen. Ok, my grandmothers religion was good enough for her but its not good enough for me these days, so someone is going to come and change those rules so that I can remain a Muslim. Little did they know that when the new regime takes over, not only will it be their grandmothers religion but it will be practiced in the fashion of ten generations ago or thirteenth centuries ago, where again a man can marry four wives and a woman cannot show anything but the round of her face, and many many rules that can be religiously allowed if they go back thirteenth centuries but that is looked down at with todays lifestyles, so they started rebelling. But the reason they didnt know that is because of the messages they kept getting from France, where Ayatollah Khomeini was in exile. The message that came were so promising that people mistook it for being the ideal leader, who is going to take them to the twentieth century. It didnt happen. Connor: So, at that point in the Revolution, it very much- well, before Khomeini came on the stage, it was very much a Revolution against the Shah, and after Khomeini came back to Iran, it became more, the motive was shifted a bit when he kind of took over as leader of the Revolution. Do you think it was kind of the point of no return, a turning point in the Revolution, all those people in the streets really- some who might have supported Khomeini, some who might not, do you think it was just a-- there was too much of a following at that point? Ghahremani: There was. And let me tell you that when I say that people wanted a modern Iran, those werent the majority. The majority were the working class and the under privileged who did grow up with the same kind of religion of my grandmothers. Who did look down on people

like me who went out without a scarf. And who thought this is wrong that Islam shouldnt be like this. And so those whole people whole heartedly supported Khomeini. Its not to say that he ruled and everybody was against him actually the majority supported him. But, the majority don't forget were the illiterate at the time. When I tell you literacy was 16%, the opposition was some of those 16% and the supporters were the remaining 84%. So he enjoyed a majority support. It was the intellectuals and the highly educated that opposed him and they weren't strong enough in numbers to do anything, especially because the government killed many of them and imprisoned the rest and those who could, they fled the country. So no one was remaining to oppose him. Ben: We have seen today, at least with the Green Movement, we have seen signs of the people of Iran now getting their voice back. Could a new revolution possibly take place or will it be shut down? Ghahremani: It can take place if those who are opposed are supported. The problem is, put yourself in that situation that you are a teenager living in Iran who wants things changed. You are against a very strong army, you have no money, and you have no right to find others who think alike. So there has to be help from outside, but who's going to that I dont know.