A 372 97/46 py Kung es jazzforschung jazz research 16 1984 Herausgeber: Institut fiir Jazzforschung an der Hochschule fiir Musik und darstellende Kunst in Graz und Internationale Gesellschaft fiir Jazzforschung (IGJ), beide Leonhardstrae 15, A-8010 Graz Schriftleiter: Alfons M. Dauer Franz Kerschbaumer Editors: Institut fiir Jazzforschung at the Hochschule fiir Musik und darstellende Kunst in Graz, in cooperation with the International Society for Jazz Research, both located Leonhard: straBe 15, A-8010 Graz. Editorial supervisors: Alfons M. Dauer Franz Kerschbaumer Akademische Druck- u. Verlagsanstalt Graz 1984Ilse Storb, Essen / FGR AN INTERVIEW WITH DAVE BRUBECK Recorded on April 25, 1980 in Providence, Rt 1.8.1 First, I would like to ask you about your piography. Which musical influences did you have during your childhood and during your youth ? b.B.: The main influence in my youth was my mother She was a pianist and she was largely selftaught, although she did study in England and had very good teachers. She was between thirtyfive and forty when she went to Europe and studied with them, She taught my prothers who are older than me. Howard is eleven years older, and Henry fourteen and a half. Henry was a drummer in Gil Bvans' band when he was young, so that I heard that terrific musician when I was very young: When I was five years old, reer crher vem ye Jocehand one aan vio every Tuesday night. He played Jazz drums and classical violin. Howard didn't play any Jazz, he played classical music. T started very young to play and 1 developed in a different way because everything my mother tried to teach me T already knew because I heard her students playing all day long. 4.8.1 What kind of music was this ? D.B.: Typical young beginners’ music. My mother taught me harmony when f was very young, but not much classical music. Tn fact, in my life Tt did not even play one minute of good classical music. {.8.: Not one Beethoven sonata ? p.B. No, never. For sure, I played Bach chorals just to study them, that is, just the construction of the music. 1.$.: And the preludes and fugues by Bach ? b.b.t Never. Maybe study them a little. and then, when I was eleven years old, my mother didn't make me play any more. But I always played Jazz to study it. T.8.1 Did she play Jazz ? p.B.: No, she played classical music, She played Chopin and Bach, the typical Buropean music. 1.8.2 Brahms, Schumann, Debussy ? p.B.: So I heard all the good music. $.S.: And what about your father ? p.B.: He played harmonica, He wasn’t @ musician, he was a cowman, 2 champion rodeo rider. I wrote piano music called "Reminiscences of the cattle Country", because when I was eleven 1 moved to a 35,000 acre cattle ranch, where my father was @ manager: We then moved to Amador County which means “Love of Gold" in spanish ~ not looking for gold, the 143gold rush was in 1849. I wrote a piece called "Sentimental" in 1949 about the Gold County. I went to college to become a Veterinarian, but after the first year I dropped out and wanted to be a musician. So I went to the conservatory without being able to read music. My mother hadn't taught me to read, as often I had just known the music, from listening to it. 1.8.: So you came to Jazz by your brother's music, since you heard a lot of it in your house ? ~ Raymond Horricks, in his book "Jazamen from Today" - I'm not sure whether you know it -, wrote some 30-40 pages about you, and he tells us about the lessons you took with Arnold Schénberg. He says there were two lessons, and then you stopped, or he stopped it !). D.B.: There is a story about Schénberg. I.S.: A funny one ? D.B.: I think so, because we had an interview, and he said, "Well, come back next week and bring me something you have written". So I wrote a very simple piece for the piano, nothing too complicated. I was in the Army at that time, World War Two, 1942. So he said, "That is all right, but why did you write this note and why did you write that note", and I said, "Well, why not ?", and he said, “You have to have a reason for every note you write". So T said, "Because it sounds good, that is my reason". And he said, "No, that's not a good reason, there must be other reasons, too". Then he started to tell me something about his theories and how 1 should approach writing, because you move from this note to another note, and I said, “Why should you say that music should go from this note to another note in these periods ?" And he got very angry with me and he said, "Come here", and he took some keys out of his pocket and he opened his studio and said, "There are all the Beethoven Symphonies and there is all the such and such misic, and you can ask me any piece of music, and I can tell you every note of it". And he said, "I know more about music than any man alive. Therefore I can tell you why you should write the way I want you to write". And that was the end of our association ! ~ And then, T decided, after the war, to study with Milhaud. I tried to make up my mind whether I should study with Schénberg or not, and what is so funny at the time is that you don't know you're living in a period where big choices are being made. It was at that time that me was: really at a crossroad, whether to continue with a kind of tonal centre or to be atonal. My teacher was Darius Milhaud, who lived absolutely in polytonality. And he didn't like Schénberg's music at all, and I am pretty sure, Schdnberg wouldn't like his. But Milhaud told me an amusing story. He said, "I can't stand any musical system with mathematics, and if you don't have a tonal centre, you rob the audience of one of the greatest things in music, modulation". He said, "They can't get anywhere, if they have never been anywhere". 145T.S.: This reminds me of Debussy. When you said, you told Schénberg, "It sounds good, that's the reason why": do you know that Debussy gave the same reason to his professors at the conservatory in Paris ! I remember this incident from the work for my doctorate which was about Claude Debussy. He told them also, "I try it at the piano, and when the colours and the sounds are good, and nice to my ears, then I like it - that's the law, that's how I like to do it, and I don't respect any rules in music!" D.B.: Well, here is the story I wanted to tell you, and unfortunately Milhaud isn't around to confirm it because he is dead, but his widow may know the story. Milhaud told me that he conducted "Pierrot Lunaire" in Italy, three performances. Schdnberg came to two performances, sat all the way through and complimented Milhaud at the end. And Milhaud knew that the copyist had forgotten to transpose the B-flat clarinet, and it was B-flat, and every note that the clarinet played fell off. It's an interesting story. He didn't want to tell Schénberg, he wanted to see whether he would notice it - and he didn't. 1.8.2 In your interview with the people of "Our Sunday Visitor" you said that Milhaud told you young composers, "You have to think about your own musical background ~ of your own country". Even in his book "Music with= out Notes", where he also mentions you, - it is about his life, it is something like an autobiography -, he says that he always asked his new students, "Where are you coming from, are you a Jazz musician ?" So he tried to find out the social and the musical background and context of everybody, by which he again differed from Schénberg, who was a more abstract and more mathematical character. How long did you study with Milhaud ? D.B.: You have to remember that I still couldn't read music, so that made everything rather strange. I was in Milhaud's classes off and on for years. And the pieces that I wrote for my lessons have just been pub- lished. Just from hi the Dave Brubeck Octet. Five of us, of the eight, were in his composition composition classes. He was really responsible for class. He asked, "How many Jazz musicians are here ?" So we raised our hands and he said, "From now on, all of your compositions should be written for this instrumentation, well, for those who play Jazz." So we added Paul Desmond to that group of five, and Cal Tjader, and others who were not students of his class. The bass player was a student, I guess, but the trombone player wasn't a student, but five out of the eight were. And then he asked us to play a benefit concert at Mills College, and that was our first concert with the Octet, He encouraged us as Jazz musicians, and he told me that I could never become a typical composer from a European point of view. I.8.: Is that what he told you ? 146ves, it was too late in my life for that, and I wasn't trained at But you wanted to be that ? Oh yes, but he said, "You'll be a composer - = but not a classical composer ? No, no, I didn't say that. I said, "In the Buropean classical tradition". I.8.: And you didn't want that ? D.B.: Oh, if I could have had it, I would have been very happy. He said, “Don't worry about that. You represent America. You are in a much better position, because you don't have this European background". I.S.: Did you study harmony, counterpoint, analysis with him 2 D.B.: It was just a composition class. Privately I studied these things for two or three years. I.8.: Two or three years. ~ How do you consider this time, the time with Milhaud and the early Octet ? D.B.: Oh, it was great ! I have just listened to these recordings again, since they have just been re-released by the Book-of-Month-Club. My earliest record is part of that three Album set 7), 1.8.1 And then there came the Quartet ? D.B.: No, then came the trio I.8.; Right, the Trio, in San Francisco - D.B.: Which played for about two years. Many people still seem to think everything happened in the Quartet. But it first happened with the Octet, then in the Trio and then there was the Quartet. That's right. And the Trio lasted two years. And the Trio was the rhythm section of the Octet. And the nucleus for the Quartet. But the Quartet played for many years, from 1951 to 1967, a very long time. Not quite as long as the Modern Jazz Quartet, but almost as long, I think. D.B.: Yes, and we were before the Modern Jazz Quartet. I.8.: And playing with Paul Desmond must have been a very inspirational thing for both of you, I think. You changed the drum player several times, and the bass player, too; but you were always together with Desmond, all that very long time. D.B.: Yes, even after the Quartet broke up, in '67. I.8.: Oh, even after that ~ D.B.: We were together from 1946 until he died. 1.8.1 Now, I would like to ask you about your larger compositions. Do you prefer to compose or to play with a group, such as the Quartet, or do you like both ? Do you feel more as a composer ? D.B.: I feel more as a Jazz musician, that's more what I am, that's 147where I come from. But sometimes I feel that I can do a specific thing, like the "Mass" last night ( - the second performance of the mass "To Hope" had taken place the day before in Providence, RHI - ). If someone else, some really great composer had been given the same assignment, 1 don't know whether he would have been very much better than I - at that specific assignment. I know that I can compose, and sometimes I think 1 can get to the heart of the problem as fast as someone who is more trained as a composer, and sometimes I am better because I don't know the exact situation. 1.8. What do you think is "the heart of the problem" ? D.B.t Emotion, Sometimes I can capture the feeling as well as somebody who is much more trained than me. t-8.: You mean much more trained in the way of compositional techniques ? D.B.: Just like Duke Ellington often got to the heart of a problem much better than somebody trained. Like Louis Armstrong, too. Ls. That means probably communication. You think of the people you are writing for, when you write, Is that right, or do you write a composition for composing only ? Because this is what numerous composers do, nowadays. D.B.: That's one of the things Milhaud drilled his students with: Never approach composition from an intellectual point of view only ! 1.8.1 Which composers in Jazz, and which pianists influenced you most ~ t've asked you that once before, when we first met in New York, in 1972. D.B.+ Probably first by a Fats Waller record, he is my first influence 3) in Jazz °); and then art tatum on piano, and a woman named Cleo Brown I worked with and she had a great influence on me. 1.8.2 A Jazz musician ? D.B.: Sure, yes. She recorded in the old days for Decca. I think she was from the Midwest. She had been hospitalized for a while and stayed in California, where I was going to college. after she got out of the hospital, she worked in Stockton and that's where the "College of the Pacific" is where I went to school. And so it came that 1 opened for her. Sometimes I had to play her first set,’ because she was always late, and t would wait and wait and wait, and the people would want to hear her. Some nights she came two hours late and people were lucky that she came at all. She was a tremendous pianist. And she was the one that introduced me to Art Tatum. I.S.: Did you ever have lessons with Art Tatum ? D.B.: No, T just listened to him. I also knew Nat Cole before he was well known, just when his Trio was getting famous, before he was a singer, you know. And he was a great pianist. It's too bad that he became so success~ ful as a singer, because he was also fantastic, really wonderful on the piano. T knew many pianists when I was young, that were great. I knew 148Eddie Beale, do you know him ? He was wonderful. I used to like his play~ ing. And I could tell you so many people that you wouldn't know. There was this fellow, he was a Hungarian, I can't think of his name now, but he played very fast Boogie Woogie. We all listened to him. And he was known in every city of the world. That was the most fantastic pianist I knew. So when you say, "Who are my greatest influences", there are guys that have never been recorded, that I still remember. Duke Ellington was my biggest influence among composers of Jazz and arrangers. A friend who was a bass player for Duke took me into Duke's dressingroom and I couldn't open my mouth. I never even talked to him, couldn't say a word, couldn't open my mouth. 1.S8.: But later on you met him again; I think several times. D.B.: I first talked to him when we were riding the same band bus. I had to talk to him and he helped me. He helped me to get my first job. I.S.: That's rather exceptional, isn't it ? Not everybody would do it ~ help another one. There is always more competition, though. D.B.: He always helped me, and said wonderful things about me. And now I am a Duke Ellington Fellow at Yale Univ sity. He said to his son, Mercer, “Dave was always close to me and I want to see that he becomes a Duke Ellington Fellow". I.8.: From a European aspect, one speaks of composition on one side, and improvisation on the other. In your interview, you mentioned improvisa~ tional dances and compositions. What do you think is the difference be- tween improvisation and composition D.B.: Composition, according to Igor Stravinsky, is selective improvisa~ tion. I think that was one of the greatest sentences that I ever read in my life. Because it states that when you are composing, you are an im~ provisor. It says that, although you write things down, your mind works very much the same as a Jazz musician's mind. It took Brahms years to write the next note; you can't wait that long on stage. So that's why Stravinsky says, “Composition is selective improvisation". You are im~ provising in your mind when you are writing, and you say, "That's not good", and it might take days before you pick the next notes. A wonderful thing, that the German people would understand about composition, is to read Thomas Mann's "Doctor Faustus". There you will get an understanding for Jazz improvisation. He speaks about something very close to it, he says that the composer, only when the flash comes, is composing. Now, Jazz is so radiant because you hear it immediately when you are excited, and you don't have to wait for the copies, or for the musicians to murder it or improve it. I have had both experiences, where the conductor was so sympathetic that he made my music better than I imagined when I wrote it. Sometimes the conductor can become so inspired that I think he is a Jazz 149musician. And then, in public, we can see this inspiration, this feeling that you also see in a Jazz musician. I.8.: What is important in the approach to music, especially in the relationship between classical music and Jazz ? D.B.: Sometimes I hear a Jazz composition that is more classically written than a classical piece. So for that reason, I put music into two categories: improvised and written, rather than "Jazz" and "Classical". It's sometimes a folk musician, a gipsy guitarplayer or a violinist, who gives you a classical violin piece or a classical guitar piece: what happens if you write it down or record it ? Is that piece than still a gypsy folk piece, or is it a classical piece of music which is impro- vised ? The man who wrote Mozart's biography said, if he had one last wish on earth, he would want "To hear Mozart improvise once more", But I thought, why didn't this man say, to "hear him write his next Symphony KV No. 8.000 ?" He didn't say that, perhaps, because he thaught that Mozart's improvisation was much better than his composition. Now, where are we here, right now, in our country ? Take Charles Ives, a gr eat American composer, who lived only some 20 miles from here. Well, his improvisation was fantastic, and who is to say that it was very far from what a good Jazz pianist is doing ? Or what Moza did, or what Stravinsky did before they wrote their music down ? For me, my own playing one night is more classically influenced and the next night it will be a situation where I want to play the Blues, and I got a great review as a Blues pianist. One time in the fifties, there was a blindfold test with a lot of great Blues piano players, and I got the best remarks from Willie the Lion Smith, and yet, people don't think of me as a Blues piano player. If I am in the right environment, I can become very "bluesy", it depends on where the emphasis is, whether it is more African or more European, and it depends on the night you hear it. It can be completely different. I.S.: How is your reaction to different musical styles: Western Classical, different Jazz styles, Bebop, Blues ? Do you prefer some of them, and which are they ? D.B.: I prefer what's going on now, which is a summation. when I first started playing, people classified me as West Coast School, but I didn't think we were West Coast School, or cool. I don't believe we had anything to do with it. I've just listened to some of my old recordings and they sound very hot swinging, and there they call me "cool". 1 will never know why. I.8.: Perhaps, because you were so commercially successful - no ~ ? D.B.: Sometimes Milhaud is called part of the "French Six"; but they did never consider themselves as a "school", they were friends and most of 150them admired Satie, but they never said they were a "school". So often there are things started, which make no sense to the people they are referring to. 1.8 either. So, if I understand you right, you are familiar with many kinds I remember, Debussy didn't like to be called an impressionist, of musical styles: European, American, Brazilian, African, Asian - would you like to be in relation with all, with everything ? D.B.: If I write a Mexican Christmas Cantata, like "La Posada", I need the Mexican style; if I write Jazz of Japan, I make use of some influence from there. It depends on what work you are just doing. 1.8.: Did you ever study Japanese music ? D.B.: dust by hearing one gets the feeling. I wrote that Album “Jazz Impressions of Japan" while we were there on tour, We were there maybe ten days - just impressions, looking round in the city, I was just listening. 1.8.: The concept of "time" is very important for music in general, and for Jazz music especially. I believe Max Roach made some experiments with time, right ? There is something written about it by Leonard Feather. But you are especially known for these things, experiments in time. In Jazz research there is always that big discussion about what is beat and what is off-beat, what is swing, drive, polyrhythm ? Do you think it is impor tant to have an exact terminology, to have strict rules D.B.: When [ first started using polyrhythms, no one had played those rhythms, and people got very confused as no one expected it, because usu- ally there was a strict 4/4. So the other musicians didn't know what I was doing, and yet I tried to explain to them that in African music there are polyrhythms, And Mozart wrote a piece in polytonality, that was con~ sidered as a piece of music for children, I forgot the name of it. 1.S.: That is "For Fun", KV No. 522 4). In addition there are poly~ rhythms in "Don Giovanni", that is you have a waltz, a minuet and another dance, three different tempi, three different rhythms at the same time. D.B. wanted to do it, I liked to play this way. when you listen to the old Octet, you'll hear a lot of polyrhythm, and it has been a rather humor~ What's why I never considered what I was doing as new. I just ous situation since the critics thaught we couldn't play anything in the same tempo. They weren't ready for what we were doing at all. I.8.: Which critics ? D.B.: Good ones, who had studied music and were playing music themselves. But they still didn't know what we were doing. Many critics know only certain people in Jazz, their favorites. And if someone doesn't sound like them they get very disturbed. But it is right, Max (Roach) wrote time experiments on the Bast Coast. When T first made Jazz waltzes, I sihad never heard a Jazz waltz, I just wanted to do it. I recorded "Alice in Wonderland", I believe in 1949, and most people think Bill Evans made the first recording, about ten years later. "Some Day My Prince Will Come" is also a waltz, and people think Miles Davis started that, but his version is also very much later. But then, again much later, I discovered that Fats Waller's "Jitterbug Waltz" had preceded " lice in Wonderland". So it is somehow dangerous to think that anybody did anything first. But in my own mind, I had never heard Jazz in 3/4 time until I made "Alice in Wonderland". Some of the things in the old Octet, in 1946, we got into waltzes against 4/4, Tt must have been very early for those two things to be going on at the same time in Jazz. And into seven: we were playing things in seven in 1946. 1 don't think, Max Roach would have done that earlier. And when people say that he did, he would laugh at that. 1.8.1 Perhaps we should ask him, as it is rather interesting for a research project I am performing presently. But again, what about termi- nology ~ don't you care about terminology ? D.B.: No. One of the first things I wanted to do, was to write polytonal and polyrhythmic Jazz. T did it, and T had no other Jazz musician to talk to about that. 1 was doing it on my own. I had Darius Milhaud years be~ fore, but 1 wanted to do it in Jazz. I think I was doing it even before T studied with Milhaud, and T was attracted to Milhaud because of that, but there is no way to prove it >), 1.S.: Do you mean you wanted to play polyrhythms and polytonality be: cause you had already done all the other things ? You wanted new ways to express yourself ? What about theoretical studies ~ did you study harmony, perhaps Schénberg's ? D.B.: No, T couldn't read music. I.8.: So you learned all these things from Milhaud, and on your own ? D.B. Bven after T had been in Milhaud's class, I could write but couldn't read, which is strange. 1.8.: I saw your name in the directory of the Berklee College. Did you ever teach there ? Do you have private teaching experience ? D.B.: When I graduated from college, I had to promise the Dean of the conservatory that I would never teach, or I wouldn't graduate. But I had a few private students. I.8.: This is again similar to Debussy. He couldn't pass his exam in harmony. He failed three times to get it; probably he was too progressive, and not conservative enough. He didn't like to teach, either. He is said to have told his fellow students, "Go to the director and tell him that t spoil your ears" ©), Influences of other musical idioms, Japanese, Burasian, Brazilian, are very important, and are also part of your work. How important do youconsider this part ? D.B.: Very important. Again from Milhaud, who taught me that I should always listen all over the world to all the different music, just like he did. He wrote many things when he was in Brazil at the embassy. He taught us that we should always listen to everything, except music with a system, a mathematical system. He didn't think of that as a way to approach composition. He said, “Always go to the deepest part in your mind, emotionally; always try to find a melody that a man on the street can whistle", and he said, the hardest thing to do is to write a good melody - "It should live". He thought Mendelsohn's "Songs without Words" were good examples of good melodical ideas. And he was absolutely serious when he said, he didn't like a system. He didn't tolerate it in composi- tion, but he did expect it in playing. The Riemenschneider Chorals Bach Book was the Bible in the class. He was very strict on that. But he never carried it over into a composi~ tion part. You just used it as a training. When I write something for the church T really think of him a lot before I say, "Well, this is all right", and if Milhaud were to look at it, he would probably take out that part of it. Although I know he wouldn't interfere, it's still the influence. Milhaud didn’ like the diminished chords, and he carried that over into my mind. I didn't use them for a long time as he had a very strong in~ fluence on me. I : The discussion about meaning in music, about semantics, let's talk about that. Alain Daniélou is director of the “Institute of Comparative Musicology" in Berlin, he had a conference about Non-European Musi. directed by Mauricio Kagel from Argentina, during which I served as a translater. they had a big argument about semantics in music and non~ semantics, whether music is only a mathematical form of sounds or not. They talked a lot about Xenakis, a Greek electronic composer, and as to whether such a music can have any semantic meaning. Daniélou, who studied Indian music, is convinced that musical semantics come from India. And rom his point of view, Xenakis' music is not music at all, really, be~ cause it lacks semantics and is purely mathematical instead. D.B.: A friend of mine studies this question also, and he says that music is getting more and more tonal again. He is an American teacher and works with a computer. He gives numbers to all the operas and to every detail jn them, and his computer tells him how long the pieces are and gives hi all sorts of statistics. He has all the statistics and information on all musical operas in his computer, and he says that's why he knows what's going on in music, And that there is a definit preferance for tonal music. I.S.: What do you think is the reason that we don't like mathematical and technical music anymore ? 153D.B.: There is absolutely a trend back to tonality. And I tell you, some of the greatest American musicians have been saying this for years. One is Leonard Bernstein, and he is still alive, the other is Aaron Copland, and he is still alive, too. Tonality will always be a very important way of communicating with the audience. I feel sad for the "geniuses" who are bored with tonality. Once a composer said to me, "Why aren't you using electronic techniques ?" And I said, "I don't understand the Bartok string quartets yet. Why should I use slide-rules and all these things, when tonal music has been so well written ?" If T had such a big knowledge that I could understand every part of the compositions that Stravinsky wrote, and everything Charles Ives did, and Milhaud, then I would say there is nothing left for me here. I am in a happy situation because 1 hear something new in the "Brandenburg Concertos" or in Bartok, and T understand much more, each time I listen. 1.8.: Many composers seem to think that compositions today should be bluntly new, as if they were research works. For instance, Stockhausen, what he makes up in his studio is, I think, more often less music than research. He researches new material for music. What is to be done with the voice, or with instruments, that is, I believe, his idea to get new material. - What are your musi cal impressions about African mi D.B.: African music is absolutely fascinating. The first African music I ever heard was from the records of the Dennis Roosevelt Expedition to the Belgian Congo - and I heard it in the forties 7), African msic has a lot to do with the way I started thinking polyrhythmically. A very funny thing occured when I was riding on horseback: I started thinking polyrhythmically against the noise of the horse's feet. That's why I say that even before I met Milhaud, I was already thinking in polyrhythmic ways, and that who could explain to me what I was already hoping to be able to do. An~ s why I was so attracted by his music. He would be the one other thing about Milhaud was that he loved Jazz musicians to be in his class, and he encouraged this when all the conservatories didn't allow it. They said, Jazz musicians didn't need to practise in practice rooms. And when we were practising there they came and told us it wasn't al~ lowed. I went to college from 1938 to 1942, and at that time one had to practise as a Jazz musician in the basement or in a cellar, had to work in a joint or something. Now it is all reversed. There are no longer joints to work in, and many colleges. give degrees in Jazz. I.8.: There is something similar going on in Germany, now. There is not really much of a Jazz education there, only two conservatories offer Jazz classes. In Cologne, they have an American trombone player, Jiggs Whigham, as a Jazz teacher, and in Hamburg you have Hermann Rauhe. I myself conduct Jazz classes for music educators at the university in Duisburg. isdD.B.: Milhaud said that Eric Satie when he heard Jazz, said, "Jazz cries out its soul and nobody cares". And you see, the point which Satie meant is that Jazz saved European art. Milhaud said that improvisation derived from Jazz in the twenties; it changed the Buropean attitude to life and art. Later on in his life he didn't believe that as strongly as when he told us that in his class in the forties. Europeans had forgotten about improvisation until they heard Jazz, except for the organists who were still keeping the classical tradition of improvisation alive. Poetry be~ gan to be improvisational again, and the theatre improvisation started, and one of the greatest influences on the various technical over-stylized art forms in Europe came from Jazz musicians going there. Milhaud thaught so, and we were also surprised to think that Jazz did something so impor- tant for Buropean art, and he said, "Never abandon Jazz if you are a Jazz musician". Bvery American composer has Jazz in his compositions somewhere, just as Bartok has Hungarian folk musik in his work. Stravinsky is full of Russia folk music, and Milhaud would sing parts of “Petroushka" to illustrate the point. His point was, that all the great artists, the great composers have their roots in folk music. One of our greatest danc- ers in America, Aqnes de Mille, said, “Everything we do on stage is re~ lated to folk dancing", American dance like Jazz took it a step further. And this is why I appreciated Milhaud so much because he said, "Be proud of the fact that you are a Jazz musician, and use it in your composi~ tions". I What could be the reason for so many composers to despise Jazz, or not to write Jazz ? D.B.: I don't know the reasons in Europe, because I am not a European. But I know the reasons in this country. Originally we were mostly con~ trolled by Puritanical thinking, even though people came here to escape from control. Our country was dominated for many years by rigid patterns brought over from Europe. It took a long time to develop new ideas. Al~ most everything was copied from Europe, where there was Bach, Mozart, Debussy, Shakespear, very traditional. Milhaud was one who came here and told us to forget Europe to a degree and said: "Be American, be your~ selves, be connected with your roots in Jazz". And he told us, the greatest American composers were Ellington and Gershwin. When Gershwin composed “Porgy and Bess", it was not produced as an opera in New York, ana I don't think it's ever been done there in its original form. Much of what you hear spoken in "Porgy and Bess", now, the recitatives in the original, when people heard that, they said, "Oh, it's Jazz, it's a Blues opera. It isn't important". This is why you still have to wait if the man on the street will sing some of the songs; and if he does that, 155it's related to the roots of the country, and then it is meaningful. rf it really expresses man, it will become universal. If you understand yourself and your own roots, your work will project beyond you to a uni+ versality. In Milan, Italy, one of the birthplaces of the opera, it prov- ed to be a good opera and very rewarding to be put on stage. But not when Gershwin was alive, and not when he wrote it. Only after the poor man had died and had suffered greatly from the critics. I.8.: You seem very concerned with the relation to the audience. Does that mean that you write not only for yourself, you want to really reach the people. Am I correct ? ae the next thing I am thinking about is, if I am writing, say, for a ballet Always. At first it must reach me. Then, when it has reached me, on stage: Is it a dance ? Will it make the audience move with the dancers in their minds ? Will they all be able to communicate ? Communication is what I consider the most important thing. When I write for a ballet, T See the ballet in my mind, of course. It might be completely different from what the choreographer will do, but to me, I have a vision of it in my mind. One has some of the feelings of what the choreographer will do, Sometimes with the rhythmic play, although sometimes the message will be different. 1.8.1 As for "Points of Jazz", when you wrote th ballet, did you have many discussions with the choreographer, Dania Krupska ? And were these during your composition or after the composition ? D.B.: She told me just what she wanted, and in the last ballet the score. I had 35 minutes of music, so I went to a rehearsal memorized the first movement. But 1 couldn't remember the next things they did. When I came home I wrote the first movement with the thought of how many steps they tock, knowing just two bars, 35 steps, 30 this and 20 that, and I matched that all to music. Then I called them and said, "I can't remember the feeling of the next movements because I for- got them". 1.8. Did you write the ballet according to the motions ? You could have 2 D.B.: For the next four movements they used a TV camera. And I had to used choreographic writing, like Laban's match every step to the music. I will never do that again, it drives one crazy. But I did it and it's not a good way to work. 1.8.: Now, I have a question about your way of cooperating with groups and orchestras. How do you manage that ? There are different ways, like ene explains a piece before it is played, "We do this and we do that", or one just starts and lets it develop... D.B.: In my groups, in all the groups I had, I always avoided discussion. Although in my mind I am always looking: do 1 have the balance with the 1s6people and with the quartet ? It is difficult with four individuals. Paul Desmond, he was lyrical. And in a group with him T am less lyrical to make it balance, and more rhythmic. Paul loved ballads so much that he would concentrate on playing during them most of the time. For me, Jos pee ry en aee end he eci lle cene Wri nt was notes s interested in counterpoint, he always wanted to play the Blues, and we even did Blues in 5/4 to get a bluesy feeling 8). 5.8.1 How is your relation to critics ? pe eatery enc 2 lol 1 fetney vice. aboutscqmecn= 7 1 either good or bad. I hope, towards the end of my career, they will have had a good look and not judge me on one night. 1.8.: Do you read reviews about yourself ? D.B.: If somebody sends me a pad review, I don't like to read it. Once in a while, criticism can be a great performance itself; but often critics are unfair, and tasteless, too. ES ————_— and now they are envious; it's a very human factor, although it is not the best motivation ? D.B.: There is that famous quotation from G.B.Shaw, who said, "1 am the most proper critic. I know, because I am a very good writer and a very good musician" >). 1.3.1 As I am working on Jazz research, T have to think a lot about anal- ysis, method, and the like. What are your ideas about method, technology, terminology in Jazz ? D.B.: T analyse when I listen to a recording. I don't do formal analysis, 1 don't like it. I prefer the emotional way. Phen, it's something beyond our mind. And I can understand a musician, how he did this and how he did that. 1.8.: There are so many definitions of the word "Jazz"... D.B.: The word has changed. It has got more significance and respect. It is not a great word yet, but it has become a lot better. 1.8.1 There are only very few women in Jazz, 1 wonder why ? b.B.: 1 know a number of female Jazz pianists, I mentioned cleo Brown, and there is Mary Lou Willians 7°), 4.8.: But in comparison to men, there aré not many instrumentalists, T mean. b.B.; I know many who quit because they had to stay home. T can think of many girls who play very well ~ they give it up. The places where Jaze je played are often very rough. There are very tough environments, and in the ola days there were knife and gunfights. One of my bass players worked in a city outside Chicago, and he was completely run by the Nnderground world, And so many of the joints where I played were under 187ground places. Now we do see highschool bands and college bands where there are lots and lots of girls. 1.8.: Yes, I saw one in Montreux. A big band only of girls, froma university. This is not necessary, but it is possible today. D.B.: I have seen it, too. And I think it is because the environment has become like in classical music. You can see many women playing in symphony orchestras. I.S.: The Berlin Symphony Orchestra does not employ women... D.B.: But in our country one can see women in the string and woodwind sections. There are female conductors as well, for instance Sarah Caldwell in Boston. It is changing - in the old days, females were rare, except at the piano. I.S.: Do you see any relation between drugs and creativity ? D.B.: I don't like drugs. For years I worked in a club, but I didn't take a drug in six years. I was in that club in San Francisco and the owner said oa fried of mine, “Brubeck doesn't spend any money at the bar like other musicians" + That was a period in my life where I was trying to prove that you didn't need anything but your own mind to play. Many of my friends said they needed Marihuana. Once you need things stronger than Marihuana, you do art needing other drugs. Marihuana alters the time sense. I have played with Marihuana smokers. I knew it immediately, they got more and more brave, they played longer and longer solos, not being aware of doing so. One very famous musician I worked with could not pick up the right tempo, he played too fast. So I would say that it is better not to use any chemical things, You can get a natural high within your own brain. Let your mind work, and when you really have a good time these things happen naturally in your mind. Nature has provided all this. You don't need any additional things in your mind and in your bloodstream. os -1 Laughing is good for health, say the doctors. D.B.: Yes, to be joyful. And when I play, I laugh many times, I am happy. 1.8.: Yes, you look very happy today. - Now, let's talk about your "Mass". When I went to the rehearsal I was quite surprised about the simplicity of some of the rhythms. But then I heard the chords developing, and the rhythms getting stronger and stronger, so I thaught this is perhaps a te rhythm, but the dynamics grow more and more. And the sound is getting tighter and tighter. And when I talked with your wife, she told me that you are trying in this way to get into immediate communication with the hnique like the one Ravel used in his "Bolero", It's always the same people, most of the people. And therefore you write melodies which the people can sing. But after you have reached the audience you build rhythmical counterpoints which are more complicated than the original 158melodies. Do I understand this right ? '!? D.B.: This was the most difficult of all the pieces I had to write under commission, because the commission said that the congregation must be able to sing the piece. And in our country the Catholics are the worst confession for singing, since they don't have good choirs like the Protestants and the Methodists. And in addition, their congregation is not used to singing. The Lutherian congregation is very used to singing. So to fulfill the commission, I had to write in a rather simple way. I would try to make it more interesting for the organ, and the sections where the choir and the congregation were joining together. I had to write a "Mass" that would satisfy me musically to some degree, and yet something that could be sung by the average congregation of a Catholic church. Now, I had heard children singing a mass, and the children sang better than the adults. So that probably meant the adults in the church had not sung for years, while the children sang. Hardly any composer can be simple and musical at the same time. I know ways to make my msic simple, so that people will remember it, and exactly that was the assign- ment for this specific mass. I..: On the other hand you had to be traditional as well as contempo- rary, which is also rather difficult. I believe you wrote the traditional parts in the Gregorian tempo, and the contemporary ones in 5/4, for in- stance the "Hallelujah". Do I remember this right ? D.B.: (sings the "Hallelujah") ~ The professionals get lost in the 5/4 tempo, but young college kids don't. You see the problem ? Maybe, that's never been done before. And the solos I had to write for the priest 7 Twas lucky, that priest could sing. I.8.: Oh yes, he had a pleasant voice. Footnotes: 1) Raymond Horricks, "Jazzmen a'aujora'hui". Buchet/Chastel, Paris, 1960. 2) “Barly Fantasies". Program Contents and Sequence selected by Dave Brubeck, 1980. Book of the Month Club, Inc., 485, Lexington Avenue, New York, N.Y. 10017. 3) Thomas "Fats" Waller, “There's Honey in the Moon Tonight", Victor 25891, recorded July 1, 1938 was mentioned by Brubeck during the conversation. 4) Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, "Bin musikalischer SpaB", KV No. 522. 5) Darius Milhaud made use of both polymetre and polyrhythm e.g. in “La Création du Monde", Editions Max Eschig, 48, rue de Rome, 1596) ua) 8) 9) 10) 11) 160 Paris VIIIe, 1923. Maurice Emmanuel, in "Pelleas et Mélisande", Editions Mellottée, 48, rue Monsieur le Prince, Paris VIe, 1950. The Dennis Roosevelt Expedition into the Belgian Congo, Commodore DL 30005. cp. "Far more Blues" from the album "Time Further Out", p. 71. Copyright by Derry Music Co., 1962. Distributor Charles Hansen, 1860, Broadway, N.A. George Bernard Shaw started his professional career as a music critic writing for a local paper under the pseudonym "Corno ai Bassetto". Mary Lou Williams died in may, 1961. "To Hope", a celebration by Dave Brubeck, A mass in the revised Roman ritual. Wilton, Connecticut, oct. 1981. MCMLXxIX, St. Francis, Music, co-published with "Our Sunday Visitor", Inc., commissioned by "Our Sunday Visitor", Inc. (Bd Murray), 200, Noll Plaza, Huntington, Indiana, 46750. Set for: Priest (Tenor solo), Female and male cantor, Congregation, SATB Chorus, Handbells, Celeste, oOrgan/Piano accompaniment. Also available on rental: Full score and parts for Brass Quintet, Percussion and Strings. Cp, also: Ilse Storb, Dave Brubeck, Komponist und Pianist. Jazz Research 13, 1981, pp. 9 ~ 43.