Sunteți pe pagina 1din 12
evens Ques 2 cients bata Lonnie A-BAT CH ga Sheet (arana Sen Van H cegeeag A Rshc ie snug Eins Sp ab Ech ny pg SC eo cen Tei ad et ta ek ak a ecm ny gay cae lea ns NARESH od mk” A tin) 8 lc ch Mago 1B) wea ST GO 1 tal pte a Bawa es 1 Ee oy name my (© 18 Hwan Aca en Ct Saat re gaa Tempus ex Machina: A composer's reflections on musical time’ Gérard Grisey Die cal, et ales USA tame) ii lec re on ton ep ogre ly ix Ge ens n sith say, ay af ‘Spotl nen: realy De compe “The skeleton of time Detinton By selon of tne we mean the temporal avisions that the composer es to ogavin sounds Without Set ineditelydscoribe o best “butely seal bensth the "esh of ime", es ileasuuctue sonethe [Eer'mtae an attraction for fentath century compose, no doubt tena ini relative spicy ives us di llsion of operations ‘iceney. Tre wnt easement fortis inasrutareischeonamel tie time © the secad hythos and durations “Two approaches to ey tho: maybe denied A by seating to 9 given pul, the meter, sn the form ofa pide atesce put nt tees fla ethyl ting of Seana Sars jada te Each shpthm ie percoved ns gusktasverelasonahp formule (cn Uwe bos ot the bent) but aso in as qeasiauee ‘Staton -o mtr {onger or shore than the Best 20a ey pian lames pe a ea age ing of Df fran. Each srs i perce qoaratively by i tatonsh to'preceding and successive durations Tar the Con the ryt Wel of Mastisen snd of the serait shot In aca ico pls allows the peeorm conductor to count and exe hese Cura tba tony exist ana way of working ted hat so percept rs. The sore eomiplx tho dvatons(aombutatons of fastons of te ai te smote eur Appeciion of thas only slate longer or sorter than > Question: Does indian muse acheve « ajnihess of wo ‘js the frst taking nto arent thy the macrstuctares lah he second dealing ith mythane subdhusions rapid ombinations of fang andl short notes]? ©) To rem consistent ith the se ofthe ssoad syste, it seem Srlly that our quantitative perception could extend fo theft of ‘fgyatone that pres of musi compres, but ve oa fee daraioss Sejm! to the en eo ain the proses of perce ‘Gre ean aap imagine sn ong sy in hic the meter tall woul Hactate cnstanty The moving reference point Seca e (te bjecie and eyiien is aboihed in fvor of fetution i the Fig, apenas cny peers pcan Fangs ‘Twentieth century comps tke those ofthe fourteenth and teenth enaares have apecsnie caneerably about dura. They have ‘pple to ime dhe proportions ent! to thove one inden spat hsepts prime nunbers (Olver Meniaen, the golden secon Bela Barish) ke oonaes saeo (KarhesSoektnusen) Newtonian Bnomils ean Claute Reet, aod alo stochastic procedures nets {hoary af gine anni Nena. SThnugh asefl a mths of working, seh speculations sil al far short of sour a perelved Tey fume eis we ou els ded ap ensign th hee of and “etek in pain at same teroetal avatars ofthe twendeth century. SS"Tke roton of smooth (aumeasured) ant sre (nase) fine sere iy Pen Be C17) emery the en 8 ondeator Bem of any Phenomenol swarenes ves ‘in dikresce between Boe hesld wp peacy fy ameter ace Stavitakys defiion, 195), fone prefers, dy a vrs pale mln by the coponeriuaina = abd smooth te, witha» piles if te sytoe wbichoveday Hae thee proce destroy al Reting of pevouiciy? P19, ©. icon & Co, Man, le | ie eo HEY TB el a @ “Thee expen ‘GappfrUesoncestran by K Stockhausen (1949): the tempi have a poe actual importance. Who perceives thes "Eos for occ by Gages (989) The tempos only importance igs point of velerened, mesa simply fr concuctors an musicians Wit pores i? ‘Online eter had Sinan fr sx woos by Stockhausen (1968) shows ns that oly some elementary, ven pinay cyte give us the ey sen pcg te temo hen ye iherelve the pulses not expressed we el remember that only 2 few simple iiytnntemeke the pecepien ofa vsteal pulse posse, tnereas ors cago forthe sake of abiguiy and the hese ‘Rehngel pure duration, witout ageftece pot elt cane ‘eeu olny srs drain cow ote contend wh ace ig a ce apprebenion af he dsaon hes oe go En mare lative Perhaps because of thi he empl in my muse seldom have a since value. Move ot, they sore fo compressor expand 3 ‘mesial tequence, and iti thetore the ford duraion ot te Sryence which & seucturly Inprtast aad not the dal of Somnchines, however, tempi which Beume the bass of an wemeniary pena stucture the on 2 pnenomenwiogial vals ce Mp: 1 ove, Tanpusex Macon fr x percustrists O58. by Let move onto any avatar: o Te non of segradble ant nos-retrgracble eth (Olivier Meciaen, 16 Salta of sym yet and says ty Ge, outer, 71} Agaty, auch dnc, whatever Ha Ypottiona value” has to peepee vale. Te shows the level of Shop eG bidding pace wor es fod ha a wopia this pti and state vernon of time was, everable iit alte wh te ne sy: ones Sori a memory hut les presence that lows hn €© apprehend ihe rami see the moment eppeasl ‘less pthapo ovr superman were itd enabled ih to construct teeny he ‘foe, desi them as syaumetioa oF not ‘Grunts ts were once again the Business ony ofthe spect ww ren sere! We an sce cesiy that, The the distinction between smooth end steed tie sath atone oly ase a pepe ate Ime insted pumber of cases that Sve yet Yo be defined tus ease, Sly show nd spe shythmie cls ould make such a assifeston Posse "Wat a pital view of musical time = bu also what adhropocentisn theceivinchis nage ofan at teeter of ine atstene bed the Oa memory that aha econ Angers ition mene 28 ey ote of he wok whch es eng Oe igh sy tat Truly Copernican reyoiton romaine tbe fought im ease “Poet tthe eso sythunicsymeety: i fo Tong coguences of trations. te sonssion of sjmcry lr unrest tenonetholess sees {Dvn thot thee muse sll st mean of creating such 9 sensation. Since the plese of musie and th hntene ae wo ents i time, we it hale to inagine 2 oho tat wd ty th aera Thnuctues mses ey tot hi tang he menor ee rete ‘Uhvortanaey, we iar fm procesing tbe paycvensousti data fr such an opeiton, but ite not stbansable that we ight erentually With sequences of short dration,s would soem tat we are more apt to reaygice u aymmetey By groupings ater ta 2. genuine Sfivmet'y. i he way that we do aot perceive site fequencies But ROG ep te norman so des the Sak py Yo Letustikebetaoningegveee: JJ JDJ) wewmutiesopoy IT 13 Jad oa dst Mid onarot S12 3 J because once we pecsveit we wouldattach the short mote fo preceding Trosmeprstor MIDI whichwegroupaprion: JJ) JIS JT ‘pene ofthe perceptible importance of the repetition of the ist group andaot: JJ) 1d)) Repti ore ston than inversion o symone snatibeanincortuinsasesanistthe perception ofthese For example, the sequence J KY ST TT yg wonderin seem moresymncactinshein aguas SH this reflection Ihave sipped unawares nto the areas tha form top subject ofthe next secon. Back Wen Yo ur skeleton! te su a plat Caegocies In place of the arbitrary and gnerty dualistic eateores which have ‘Etdnase nn attanpe to claiyGurasons shoring enayiney ‘onolicaona valde, syrmetyasyouneny, 1 aubete sae of ‘mpl =o doube qty aie but which has the aaa every tothe phenomena of rst ness they se peceved nd alow sotnuty to be gpd "rioeaton theory, such a tht pecented by Abraham Moles (1968) could be of asbtanc hee rom he klowing ale we cn construc cn th cu be und inthe cation obra ey es eg ofan an tore y ihe xn fat fy a no hr, 2) Period 1) Continuoosdynamic 1 continous aceeration 23) Senta deceleration 9 Disconinaoudynamic 1}. sceleration cr deederaton ity sages or by eon 2) Sisal acceleration Sovelenatin rsximar predicabiity ORDER average predictability ght preditatity Statistical DISORDER Somplee rdision ppnpreictabty af durations srovmam dione) © Smooth iyi ence seroproitbilty efre going over the cements the able pointy pin it should be impde daar that all sounds can be given 8 duration BY duration ‘husisane have ton of itended lening men, auch othe ‘Bye pn oar aa en Cann ofa ns ‘Rinyes tn tine, sowed guay and ubyat, om more generally, the “Sil um a cee oe scone os mack mal a ne Canriythmicaly express Tn she course of sing the present exay, Staphen MAdams dew ay ton te ety Te at hat ie Lee a eget {ane by infdmtion tony aa very Ueto do wi the epee of ‘Suc andthe way in whlch tho sevtuing iv cts endestood iy the nse. ts rue that perciving the degiee of compe is nicer a8 snple no aslinea ase prveding able might ouggest, Between terete Serle an te porealy unpeedtble the dee of sxmpesty enw to follow oneor several carves vohose peaks) ave emily #he Acampo or aac te 28 result of the mush contint and the perceptual eapachies of eich feruon, One of the most arduous take fr the composer will De to [termine upto wnt pot complex sacking allot perception in onaogeeve way. On either skle of sacle a point see two ples of ‘oreo ve tos ick os stort 3 ora, ut this hreshold is ot any ss depenent up the compote subject and esponsi Ryo te compere 2) Periodic 1) We do not consider periodicity 2s wither basi material nr asthe anit UUyshmstancture but the moet spe, most 2relnble phenomenon: i Rimptng fo se ava seat pnt of releence forthe pereption of thine ands a imacoldal sud fr Ee pores of pitches but not tall the pio undation of « herrciga systems We would have sell {he dine atitede fo sassonunee, However, ag. Abrahamn ‘Moles ‘Rptsins so well “the notin of hythm fe isked to that of expecaon {te ile ct poy ee pe nah 2 felling or oa com telly equsdetant tee, We have al Sikeet tow the pero of fe synthesise or computer in its peste Teduraancy merely induces boredom and natention The whol arto he compose’ who works in an clinic tudo, analog ‘r egal consis of making shi excessively redundant ates mee Bene 2)40 1973, wit respect ta work alle simply Pind, introduce the Fotlon of fuze pense "Tae involved componigeviodie events which fluctuate slighty round constant, dnalogots te the pero of our heartbeat, ‘renting of focatp. The rate of deviation con be almost inaudible Trt fate players ell “osling) om is more asked, perceived oa Slat festa the porndity ek. expectaion aroused in the mse ‘RElgatay Tnsed with grat eathusasn that here Tas dealing wa ae ef te acas of reseich creed out at HRCAM by Davi Wessel paychoscouticin ane compost. Dats say in Rome Tas given torsade sodion made by @ ten of Sevan mebeologit tn the Grek tenes of Paest “Tae measurements of te pisces crved i the cofered cei ‘Bowed an apa ay in th rpean Th engt of e jews sae i Leanember hy, between 29 and 29 cee ‘Question: What amount wf sstetatic or satis! phase der (Ghee mut be programmed ta make ledrone goody “ive ‘Shout ses destoying the fing of periods tell "The paychologicl imporance of perociey no longer has to be Extend Paychoamalys teaches us hat heute 8 repetition i somite on mal ine 24 J the connection 1 would mention Meare who with bis nfalng psychologel init goreays ia Di Enirung wes don ‘Sena a character a the eight of a nowvtic dln: Osmn sce Arla No IS “und die Hee achnore us scharen 29, schiren,schnarenshndret "| iy ald: dhe sounds ist and rap of obese. fhythmie of harmonic periodicity, “having bsen tpn wily mabe indetty haunting y fr very aos The Scene of pc wan ding he Ft ere ‘he could dream of nokodarned opeces (jcinegzadbey. Varese, Boats. To the conta, sepive (minima) ace in Bone way fnibocled the sur ofthe epee bec Ts type of evi Sir io thoes fund in nuterowe Atdcan nat apd a sate 0 tance Uy annialting tine. We sal see inter on how this hypo ver ‘Nelier ofthe above sages apes as, Peiodicy is epee it saws pause the sire folding he sumpetson el ne ae someting, a redundancy heal to ou powers of comprehension ‘When the’ musica sucture demands it we yoo It fr ha ne sites, avuding both ejecdon and obsession ‘The misca dscouse ist tum eta, caught in 1) Continuowedy namic 1) or he perception of duratins,logarthni cartes ceetily have an Lupo equa fo tne harmonic speiea which deersine fhe ave oe 4 pltch The porepeon ofthe daralons i aeually governed bythe aise ibe as hat By phen and ites the law of Werffechnen, which say be roa expressed a: Se blog ‘Whore 5 is the sensation (or the paychologial dinension), Bs the ‘ucistion (rth payin mension) and constant wale whic “Conditions the selstonahig baoon ao agmenttion aS and given Sugmentaton of ‘Seaton therefore vale ogy asthe logarithm of exciton, As every muscan has er able to se for ml, 10 malta an ‘equvaien! sensation otsiererce whatever the duration cine ist Mae Songer cilrence betweer long serstons than fsetweeen shor Shutions. adatom, the agonaneous aecleration of = mia I Says ofthe garth type 2) To make the transtion from peradsty (of. Fig-3) to aceoration oF Seceieration ii oly necesmay to ado subatt 3 factor tea ven ‘rston(artnede progeemitno the nt nocosl order ete ig 4) Sete nally or dive his duration bya actor (gems proprecson ces) vier eet A Th ovder to visual tse acelertions and decleraions, we These “ewees brig grat ei to the tomporal distabution of sounds wii soon fh degre of tension na thd of the roar eplocing te onder of events by the onder smoyhect bere to correspond nthe sain of bbe, to spect wth Alierent degen of harmonic. (ch inva specs ae pro Ieee hy ceta instearpents—the pana, foresample bat cam alse be fesduees clceonealy by method such ae teeeney modulaan). the, fancy Wiese promreatond whi crentte the evokston of the sound 2) Payehologially th acceleration of durations teinforces the progres «arin faing of sound that takes place in ur embry the ingest vests memorized soe alo te cares Thvough acceleration thelpesent = made more dense, hc a0 of ine at fal ps [sider aly rpeted towards something which he teow, The aroW offs oo olga! time Sea tat of use tte sited oper, cause complet es of memory stluces svt oe expectancy inthe von of the present. Flere I funetions ‘Shauocing of fongtianers, the most salen densities Clr the SUSE Wal decent the latin pull mane se te arom of tase! tne had somehow sted in the appeate cieeton. But Fcnuse curlers ake pesives dat the stow of his own blag tine hod nochange oct, he wl slat indie beeen ese sees af tine going 8 wpponte Bat concernant directions 8 eevog guise” The fexnporlsrscare othe fi ses fo be SEES a Smensous slowing down, the events Becoming fever Shs fst see sows, Tas Elm should aloe seen for ontiy at event behtoor of te pep py. ligting ete) praters photogta Empucealy we have observed that we tolerate along acceleration felted by a shoe decelrstion eather then is opposite (9 short vcleratifllowed by 2 ong desertion). Ry [sit mater ofa frm that relates tous physiol? Os peehaps is presely this double sonee of tine ani the You of expecation, wedi the raefacion of vents Keeps ut suspended, that we can only rats for» tes te, By cantante vrigo induced PY To concn, ete rmemler that acelezation and docleration, jst hice pened, ove pt of our daly experience vide ard ep rrySnyllame whch cdeesne the dite phases of ie subject eo ‘On the other hard, art sience, chronobiology is inthe proceso revealing a sree of fenposl inages ofan corte 9 te purely Poel caatomicl Sanger te certain thot msn el have sack &e iain about thew ulile pects daily dual socterna, [aes Where te Mshotd ot perception Benen pee fy om the one han! and aeeloraton or deeseration onthe oe? it ther wey wha tne srs percept aclerton L ©) Discontinuoussyname To avsid oo great x predictability - something for which one might iredspecea (oupprosion of certain creas of harmonies) arin ects composed of coaiplety inhwnnonic, nd therefore arp ‘ESSE porte els and exam 1) Asceleations and. declerations by step. which skip entiew ts ofthe curve in order to immediately introduce te sate Of Sound gst as tn beat ater moment 7 ono eng neve 2) Slalistica accretions and decelerstions which procted fram ively or aepaively osentod discontinuity i. 8 ve Gesblt of a tempoial sequence thus detemnined rensins overated wectovlly whatever ti staetcnl meandonnga, Exclu ded Tram te ploba frm, pure chance ls thus mite, he back in Sowne way; the general dynamism taker over. I does not follow iwevet, iat oft perception Is automaticaly abe to work out the tlentaton of sucha sequence, Ifthe wave fs too ong, of Hf the tins uf the lferences in uations oe in thythmic enalties is too lage. we il pay greater attention to the surprise of the Tmomert ton tothe seual sense ofthe sequence Exossve Prcsent moment. prevent isin king any Hird wf menos Glew and pata mute inoue memo? ‘Of couse al Types of vaperinpostion of diffrent cures com Epconiisy a dynamism and sass; "unstabe: anl pepe tay sew ply. lew ore cnepamer the prance of uncen “ih geet it gun bv mono Se npr Questions 1st speci reaionships must the sound contents # and ¢ he ave 0 tha a ae perce, oh ss 9 imps ‘tiscomtinety fut an clu, a compression five tn we? Sec fens in getigy which perm the immediate secon Ereton of te conduty f oppo tata 2) ind aw defining a zelaonshiphetwan the total duration of fhe sequence and Ihe sange af the Matta vations of mic Ueto oe pereive nd memoee dearly the pie ad neji aes enc, Wie etl at wich ie perorpon of is vector detnavely aves way tthe porepan The caconsinsity ofthe present noone mee 1) Statistic! Like wera white age of derations (CF 10), ee probable Aistnboton of vast se of durations leaves Us no possibly of Fredo Tne degree of corer ss at ts muacimem. Aolate [EsScainity nl nly hold oarasenthn frames hte He diven if i posibe to color wth a tle crengy sh a zen of| frequency of White noisy ete. pae hints abou ‘Geoibiy Yo ogi es” of cot, 1) Simooth “Yo dhis plete we ean ald (non) zhythm,seamlessnes or lack of al tenporl civsion. tis “aamlesanes hie absence of euretians om ‘oon Figure 10 Waite wise” of drwlons. The rating of durations for frets utara, 15 nd 3) at approsiely 031, O14 038 nd EPSecmes epee, Amp fttion on maine 257 liner be ently percept, the thythans bing only operative a an te percep nd conceptos, 9 rare cae ofthe fb sone of any rent sigh wound or ythmic sence a OTS oT a AGA age HRT] SEEN such woul pale andt or yin otha Conclusion “The catego hat we have just defined do no have tobe miting, Like Imuslal parameter they ae only florence fr the readey, a ort oF gm hich perc cu to tackle the posiew of duratann We can Ste fat hance ths Cpe tether datos Side aonng whith we Wil docover sew ‘Obes and 30. Oh {Rlcniye WE have on the oer hand, walt Jett aide all ‘Sintnily ystems seized bythe somone which df all cai Sen: Such a shema is never afned exo music ely which is Minty mere comple Tome coslyappooach tis mosial ely, we wil pats of the vaet of tne whee coun, ike Heng il wl come fo iub snd ‘velop the tenpral elton wih te density and complet "Yo tow fi chapter on tempor secures Tam temp to paraphrase St. Just CRevaution must atop atthe perfaion of Fepncs? by sing tht sacar, whatever is comply, maa op a ihe priya he mesa ‘The flesh of time Denton Having rest lant he quantitative agpest of sical eine in oder (Ct complety, herean ome gullies fora more gual ave approach what call eve fash of tne Its crt the cine thst have offen advanced explorations i the sinecton of hte presnt secon. In fac scmed to me vitally Insponleb efet om sructores of musical ine without moneda) toching on phenomenological st poychologleal aspect ‘he dish tare lee stacanowledfod pt of ic! composition. siete tut wo understand such pees "et i upto the musician” "Tai at be learned” cor perbaps “sa mate of inultion. Lomeve if re Bt indy i he ination of the usin we believe equybiny thal this ca be developed ss patently ase Se tr good ram, subs and tore nebulous tn the preceding con, itibhene saucston of approaching the tment perception oF Lane us ceationips wits the sound material The same temporal seleton thay be envelope and therefore pore eieremy atoning to Ue Wray on uh the volames and weights of the tse fesse Uisebuted. Toa eter eter than for he skeet oie, ve wl be tet tite 1 the ety of any tempore! tate fom ne Degree of prenaliiity By induding sot cal’ the sound bat, moreover, the sltferences Peecetve tf sounds, he el mater ofthe composer becime™ ine flgeee of proditalty cv beter the degre of "pretatbliy™ So, 19 invence fhe Gegiee’'of presudiliyy ter come beck fo composi, Imunol tne iy Wat ines pepe tne 8 cpp Kartheing Stockhausen had ead anisipated he importance of ‘hs by efor cetin works (Car for bur ores sd fou those, 1971) what ho called the agree of change (Veteran ‘grad (1969, 1967, 1971, 1979). Ths olin all the eet Soleo of information theory 1 beteve thatthe composer wo wants a giv ume a mused value snus focus on thi points no longer he sage sound hee deny wiley tne tt rather he dfltence rack of dfereace beeen tne sou anti eighbor tn oer words the sion from fhe rownto the unknown andthe amount of efonnation tt ec sound ‘Scanttamucc Ins conponton dane Olver Marason sd fat trap necesary fo havea eat hwo sudo ance and «sun in Under tit tte bo mu! Vz Nalkoy wrote nti sublet "Maybe the only thing that ins 4 sense of Times yt fot te reament bet ofthe eh bt oe spa beter two sch en he ay gop between Beck beats The Feder tetewat (OL YP “This rings back to “composing around spac", rather tke scalps fet Henny Me whose halla not esa nto fe snes fos gave round whch the sous a mrclted tlt magne asc event, A, flowed y anther even, B eteon Aan 5 exis what one cis he deny of Ie presen 2 Senay" whith i sot 4 conan! but which expands and contacts cording tothe even tr eee of te ference betwoun and 8 ‘ually in ober words the sound 8 entey predate une ‘eis fron staan speed ont, ne ound cal Siferent and virally uapeaictabl, tne toss ilerent speed ‘here snuet ext Hoke In time, analogons (0 what aapane postengen cll ar post. Chrpmomettc Woe i never obit, Aung fist a tine 29 ‘Ene omer hand. a sees of exiemely predictable sound events seen nhich beige us doses the infernal sovctuce of sour “Fae Galle ie expand ou audory scaly to perceive the picwphnic saiceralrty formulated by quartam physics which here is "a ration ad wiciphony Asa rout of the exrome expansion of ne, be ave athe very heat GF dound whose mute revealed by the effet of an inordinate mepeatcatn at eine of the dynamism of gb satan when with our cam veel 1 the ntral dyramiam of sounds lke the eye % 2 SEES we" become dea to every mooapioic event, oF more iy all forma of latanehips aking these evans: mead, Eivmony, aafultion, thythmie gente ete» 0 shor, all thet Fedtional Western msi propose! ‘et on frag oorslves ike he hor of C-Castaneta’s work (1975) content the water atthe age of the res, then progressively Realy raised tothe se ofthe molecules of water unt we our Fee iaccctes we would cetanly be sarmanded by av uabesrd of landscape, at would we sill fel the force which sweeps these rola of water out 10 sa? “the ely of pescepton suggests that, for the pensive, there rust be a hid Oe anal musch scours, put of One can find pes of he ons in wadtionat, snusie To merton only fw a W, A. Mora Symphony No 40k G minor (K 50) ist movement bar Sheed then 4-25 J. Bras, Pano Concerto No 2 in B Bat major (op $3) Tet movement Rar 238-248, then 245-20 A truciner Symphony Noo Istinovement bars 49-588 Sr movement ba 31-2 then 121-129 Wagner Dos Rheingold Pred What continues 40 altel me i the posbity in dhe future of spoging stare wich nage at a ge pe fen Change im see Te san of sed posit —for which ne can ays InieSiutt rcontinacn “costes mew dineton of sounds dap, cr he Segre of proxi Niort ts play ofthe zoom Jens Gack ane fort ean in tr become situa and garerate new yan of sound forces lave (a he spatial density of sounds and the? duro. Fone ated fo nd an equivalence in electzaie music one would have to mention seveeraton, bet ith al the ention hocesary for so simplistic an analogy, sine the conta hat the onspset of trent mie mains ove his id of depth ‘enot commensurate with a potentiometer: ean ac at only on the spect content but on the Gin ofthe plienstmenan, Digital reverbeaton in a moee complex way, perhaps begs Us a more Sete conta f thew phenome object and process ‘rom naw onitisimposibeo think of suns defined objets which Sermunuayierchangeate: They sie me eer a force fede ven

S-ar putea să vă placă și