STATE OF MICHIGAN

IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR THE COUNTY OF OAKLAND

LILLIAN SONG,
Plaintiff,
v

Case No. 2012-803495-DM

WILLIAM MOORE,
Defendant./
EMERGENCY MOTION HEARING
BEFORE THE HONORABLE LISA LANGTON
Pontiac, Michigan - Friday, February 20, 2015
APPEARANCES:
For the Plaintiff:

VINCENT D. GIOVANNI (P26442)

26111 West 14 Mile Road, Suite 201
Franklin, Michigan 48025-1171
(248) 851-2280
vgio@aol.com

For the Defendant:

EMILY E. LONG (P69607)

Long Law, PLLC
3910 Telegraph Road, Suite 200
Bloomfield Hills, Michigan 48302-1461
(248) 409-0520
emily@longlawpllc.com

Guardian Ad Litem:

KERI MIDDLEDITCH WIGOD (P63088)

Alexander Eisenberg Middleditch &
Spilman, PLLC
600 South Adams Road, Suite 100
Birmingham, Michigan 48009-6862
(248) 358-8880
middleditch@aemslaw.com

Transcript Provided by:

Accurate Transcription Services, LLC

Firm # 8493
(734)944-5818

Transcribed by:

Krista S. Michels, CER #8490

TABLE OF CONTENTS
PAGE

WITNESSES
None

EXHIBITS

RECEIVED

None offered.

Pontiac, Michigan

Friday, February 20, 2015 - 2:33 p.m.

* * * * * *

THE CLERK:

All rise.

Oakland County Circuit

Court is now in session, the Honorable Judge Lisa Langton

presiding.

803495-DM.

8
9

Calling Moore v Moore, case number 2012-

MS. LONG:

Good afternoon, your Honor, Emily

Long on behalf of Mr. Moore, who is present to my left.

10

MR. GIOVANNI:

Good afternoon, your Honor,

11

Vincent Giovanni on behalf of Lillian Song, formerly

12

Lillian Song-Moore, who is seated to my right.

13

THE COURT:

14

MS. MIDDLEDITCH:

15

Okay.
Good afternoon, your Honor,

Keri Middleditch, Guardian Ad Litem for the minor child.

16

THE COURT:

Okay.

Were here on an emergency

17

motion to suspend plaintiff mothers parenting time.

18

Long?

19

MS. LONG:

20

THE COURT:

21

MS. LONG:

Ms.

Yes, your Honor; may I proceed?

Yes.
Judge, I did file an emergency

22

motion.

It was drafted today.

I apologize to the Court

23

somewhat for my casual appearance.

24

defense coun--or plaintiffs counsel as well as the GAL as

25

much notice as possible.

I tried to give

I spoke with both of them via

3

telephone this morning.

The basis of our motion is principally, the

exhibits that were admitted at the beginning of plaintiff

mothers proofs in the hearing that the Court has

continuing before it in the custody matter.

received an actual copy of those, Judge.

received a copy of those prior to them being admitted.

-we had some limited voir dire.

I just

I had not

I have not had the opportunity to cross-examine

10

on them.

11

upon my notes and recollection of Ms. Songs testimony

12

that I made the factual allegations that I did.

13

Specifically--

14
15

Mr. Giovanni laid the foundation and its based

MR. GIOVANNI:
Judge?

May I interrupt for one second,

Have you read the pleadings?

16

THE COURT:

17

MR. GIOVANNI:

18

I-

Ive read both the pleadings, yes.

Okay.

So, I just want to pro--

proceed from that understanding.

19

THE COURT:

Yes.

20

MR. GIOVANNI:

21

THE COURT:

22

MS. LONG:

Thats all.

Yes, I did.
Specifically Judge, my recollection

23

of Ms. Songs testimony, because I--and I remember

24

specifically asking this because I was so concerned about

25

the actual content of the photographs, was how long have

4

these photographs been going on?

of the first photograph that Mr. Giovanni had entered had

a 2013 in front of it.

she was photographing the rectal/anal region of the minor

child in question, Joshua Moore, when he was received from

fathers care and then, when he was again, delivered to

fathers care.

8
9

And I believe the date

And Ms. Songs testimony was that

The thrust of that, your Honor, was that there

was some sort of injury or otherwise that Ms. Song was

10

attempting to document that was worsening in my clients

11

care as opposed to in her care.

12

beyond simply the graphicness of the photograph, is that

13

based on that, and some of these photographs, as Im

14

looking through, you literally see a hand.

15

fingers that are--that are spreading apart the young

16

childs bottom.

17

The concern I have,

You see

Taking that testimony as true that this child

18

was being photographed on that frequent of a basis, from

19

2013 until today, even if you assume for the sake of

20

argument that it didnt happen every single time, we are

21

talking about an extraordinary number of photographs of

22

this childs rectum.

23

I can say as an officer of the Court, I forwarded a copy

24

of the email to Mr. Giovanni, as well as Ms. Middleditch.

25

And I spoke--I had the opportunity,

The pediatrician who testified, Dr. Forman, I

5

spoke with him via telephone today and asked him whether

or not he had the opportunity to ever review such

photographs.

4
5
6

MR. GIOVANNI:

Object to any conclusions or

statements he might have made to counsel.

MS. LONG:

Well, I can--I can--or Judge, then

Id ask the Court to query of the doctor.

I certainly

didnt have time to get an affidavit from him today.

can state as an officer of the Court what he told me, or

10

Id ask the Court to telephone him.

11

contact information and asked that he--his staff be

12

instructed to pull him out of a room if the Court would

13

prefer to hear it from him.

14

He did provide his

But irrespective, I think the content of these

15

photographs speaks for itself in conjunction with Ms.

16

Songs testimony.

17

to the GAL.

18

investigations.

19

does not appear to have been--have been handled by any

20

professional whatsoever and this is a situation where we

21

have multiple photographs of a young boys bottom.

This is something that was not reported

It was not reported to CPS despite multiple

It was not handled by a doctor and it

22

And hes not just an infant, Judge.

23

a circumstance where hes an--an infant whos subject to

24

the type of disastrous diapers that we can all relate to.

25

This is a little boy who is going to be five years old

6

This isnt

soon and is on multiple times per week being photographed

rectally by his mother.

inappropriate.

I think its abusive and I think that it

needs to stop.

I recognize that Mr. Giovanni offered in

his response of pleading that there was an offer that--

that Ms. Song would refuse or would discontinue doing this

until the Court reached a decision on the pending motion.

I dont believe thats satisfactory.

I think its completely

Ms. Song has demonstrated historically not--some

10

noncompliance with Court orders.

11

enough testimony before it now at this point to recognize

12

that some of the delays that have been attributed to other

13

facets of the motion thats pending before the Court is as

14

a result of Ms. Song not utilizing the safety net that the

15

consent judgment of divorce put in place to protect this

16

child, specifically Ms. Middleditch.

17

The Court certainly has

The fact that Ms. Middleditch was not aware of

18

any of this is again, of utmost concern.

Even if she

19

wasnt going to tell the doctor, even if she wasnt going

20

to tell CPS, the childs representative should have been

21

aware of these concerns.

22

be taking these photographs, these concerns should have

23

been voiced to professionals.

24

voicing this to professionals, in the absence of the

25

people who this should be reported to being--having it

If she was concerned enough to

And in the absence of

been reported to, I think that that belies any assertion

that this was done for a legitimate purpose and because of

that, I believe the safety of the child is at issue.

I believe it is harmful to be photographed

repeatedly in this sense and the Exhibit A that we

attached to our pleading demonstrates that literally after

Court, after we were here on Wednesday, Ms. Song exercised

her evening parenting time that was designed in the

consent judgment for them to be able to have dinner

10

together and that a rectal exam of some sort was

11

performed.

12

she did communicate that in writing to my client that--

13

evidencing that it was again, examined on Wednesday just

14

hours after Court.

15

Whether it was photographed, I dont know, but

And for those reasons, Id ask the Court to

16

grant my motion pending ultimate disposition.

17

Court next Friday on this issue.

18

THE COURT:

Okay, thank you.

19

MR. GIOVANNI:

Were in

Mr. Giovanni?

Your Honor, I think that counsel

20

has mischaracterized, not only what was done, but the

21

nature of what was done. There is nothing wrong with

22

photographing this child to document a medical condition.

23

If she had published these to someone else or shown them

24

to someone else, thats a different story.

25

existence of the photographs is only for the purpose of

8

The mere

showing that the child was not being properly treated and

being neglected.

Now what Ms. Moore--or Ms. Song should have done

in terms of notifying others, you might want to recall

that she had notified others about injuries the child had

suffered because she was concerned about possible

infliction of injuries by her husband.

him of that, but she made the authorities aware of that.

That was a--those are potentially abuse allegations and in

10

She didnt accuse

fact, they were investigated.

11

Now, this problem that were dealing with here

12

that exemplified by these pictures is a less serious issue

13

because its a matter of neglect.

14

couldnt get responses from the authorities because it

15

didnt seem to, apparently to them, exhibit abuse, would

16

suggest that, I would think that the responsiveness of--of

17

the authorities would be significantly less in a neglect

18

situation.

19

And the fact that she

Now, you have to remember, I think, and take

20

this--an argument throughout this case, that this case has

21

to be seen in the context and in my--my answer to my

22

motion, my client has been communicating with Mr. Moore.

23

And there have been communications which, I havent

24

reviewed everything possible because a limited amount of

25

time, but I have discussions in Our Family Wizard where

9

she was bringing to his attention the fact that the child

was constantly sore and red after he had--red after he has

been with you in this location.

I have emails between the two parties on August

10th of last year, on Aug--August 9th of last year, August

8th of last year, September 22nd, September 21, September 23

of last year, September 20, September 19, February 19 of

this year.

Moore, was the problem is potty training and Im going to

And the responses she got, basically from Mr.

10

take care of this problem with the application of

11

ointments and salves, like A&D, as he--as he said, but

12

he--but he--he didnt address the problem when she pointed

13

it out to him appropriately.

14

The problem kept on happening and in fact, when

15

he said he was giving him the A&D ointment, the problem

16

still continued to appear.

17

numerous times during the course of the marriage that--

18

during the course of the pendency of the divorce that he

19

would make her pay for having divorced him.

20

in a situation where she anticipated there would be future

21

litigation over events relating to this child and she

22

predicted that pretty well.

23

My client has been threatened

She was un--

These photographs are not published to anyone

24

else.

They are photographs of--of neglectful treatment.

25

They are relevant to this litigation.

10

I think--I--in

fact, I viewed their protestations as deflecting the fact

that they clearly illustrate neglect on the part of Mr.

Moore.

advance, I probably would have said, You should call

Middleditch or--or deal with it with Dr. Glickman (ph),

but I think you--my client indicated that she ad--

addressed this issue with Dr. Glickman; is that correct?

I--if I, you know, if I had known about these in

MS. SONG:

THE COURT:

10

Two peds.
(Indiscernible).

MR. GIOVANNI:

Okay.

So, there--there is

11

nothing neglectful, abusive, repulsive, disgusting about

12

these photographs except that they illustrate neglect.

13

And your Honor, theyre appropriate to the circumstances

14

of this case.

15

treating the complaints of my client correctly.

16

would ask you to review these emails before you make a

17

ruling so you can see that there was discussion between

18

the parties about this problem and in spite of those

19

discussions, it kept on reoccurring.

20

They are in response to Mr. Moore not

And I

My client has noticed in several instances in

21

the past related to this child that Mr. Moore lacks

22

empathy, which he will testify to on Friday next, and it

23

hasnt been put on the record yet.

24

concerned about his ability to deal with the child in--in

25

light of his phobias and delusions, also about his lack of

11

She has always been

empathy for the child.

her from the very beginning.

problem keeps reoccurring.

These instances were a concern for

Hes been unresponsive.

The

Its extremely critical to this litigation.

The

fact that we have photographs is not inappropriate and my

client would also testify, if we take any testimony today,

that these pictures were only taken in conjunction with

the necessity of treating this child.

in the sense that, Okay, its time to pull your pants

They were not taken

10

down, were going to take your pictures.

She took these

11

pictures and--and also, in--they took these pictures in

12

conjunction with applying palliative treatments to the

13

injury this child had suffered from the rash.

14

This child came back from parenting time

15

complaining of soreness and rawness in his bottom.

16

also would testify that she made efforts to avoid--

17

MS. LONG:

She

Judge, Im going to make the same

18

objection.

Counsel didnt want an offer of proof from me

19

and I--I mean, this is beyond an offer of proof, so--

20

MR. GIOVANNI:

21

not here, my client is.

22

Honor.

23

even know these pictures were being taken by deafening--

24

theres a way you can turn off--

25

Well, excuse me.

All right?

The doctor is

Im sorry, your

She made efforts to make sure the child didnt

THE COURT:

How do we ever know that, so-12

MR. GIOVANNI:

THE COURT:

She--she would testify to that.

Well, all right.

Lets move on.

The pictures are the pictures, so--

MR. GIOVANNI:

I understand, but the point is,

is that she--she--she made efforts, and she would testify

under oath she did, to avoid the child being aware of the

pictures being taken and that they were only taken at the

time that she was applying treatments to the childs rash.

THE COURT:

10

MR. GIOVANNI:

11

between the parties?

12

THE COURT:

13

Okay, thank you.

Would you like to see the emails

No, Ive read--were they--are they

part of the exhibits?

14

MR. GIOVANNI:

15

part of the exhibits.

16

the--

17

THE COURT:

Well, Im not sure they are all

I was asked my client to produce

And the--and the emails indicate

18

that they--she was talking about her concerns with the

19

rash?

20

MR. GIOVANNI:

Yes.

On August 10th, she said,

21

His butt is constantly red and sore after he has been

22

with you.

23

THE COURT:

Ive read a number of those, so--

24

MR. GIOVANNI:

25

THE COURT:

Okay.

--Im--Im aware of those.

13

MR. GIOVANNI:

THE COURT:

MS. LONG:

4
5
6
7

Okay, your Honor.

Okay, thank you.

Any--

I have some response.

I dont know

if the Court wants to hear from the GAL first?

THE COURT:

Ill--Ill hear your response and

then, Ill hear the GALs.

MS. LONG:

Judge, I--I think that one of the

concluding things that Mr. Giovanni said is the most

important and the most--well, its the most important

10

because he said its--it was only associated with the

11

necessity of treating the child.

12

This had nothing to do with treating the child.

13

from the pediatrician.

14

It absolutely was not.

We heard

There was no testimony elicited by Mr. Giovanni,

15

who certainly had the opportunity to do so, to discuss

16

when we were talking sub--for a substantial period of time

17

with Dr. Forman about potty training and it being an

18

issue, there was no question, there was absolutely no

19

question posed by Mr. Giovanni to Dr. Forman regarding Ms.

20

Songs continued complaints regarding diaper rash.

21

was absolutely no question posed by counsel to CPS.

22

There

These people, and I be--its--its--its my

23

belief, based upon that, Judge, that this has never been

24

brought to anyone elses attention.

25

because to my knowledge, having been rep--having

14

And I believe that

represented for my client--my client as long as I have,

that I believe, based on my experience, that a 3200 would

have had to have been filed.

has not been done.

represent that to the Court and--and I think it is--its

simply a function of the obligation of a mandatory report,

if faced with these type of photographs.

8
9

And to my knowledge, that

I believe that Dr. Forman would

I do not know how a child of this age, were not

talking about an infant.

I dont know how a little boy of

10

four years old cant tell that a photograph is being taken

11

of his bottom when his mothers hand, 2-12-15, I assume

12

thats his mothers hand that is completely over his

13

bottom spreading his--his rear end apart.

14

how its possible that you can honestly say that that

15

would be taken without the childs knowledge.

16

THE COURT:

17

MS. MIDDLEDITCH:

I dont know

Ms. Middleditch?
I would like the record to

18

reflect that I have not been provided these photographs,

19

nor have I seen these photographs.

20

brought to my attention via Mr. Moore and his counsel

21

after the testimony came out of Ms. Song in my absence

22

after the testimony that I provided to the Court.

These photographs were

23

I would indicate at no time did mother raise any

24

concerns about a habitual rash or rectal irritation during

25

my tenure on the case.

At no time did she bring some

15

concerns to me that she felt that something was happening

to Joshua while in his fathers care with respect to his

bottom or rear end.

as are described by both attorneys, have been taken as

often as they seem to suggest, certainly even after a

dinner, which is absurd to me, find--I find that that

actual action is very abusive.

8
9

I frankly think that if the pictures,

When I previously testified before the Court,

none of this had been brought to my attention.

Frankly,

10

CPS has been involved twice since my tenure on the case.

11

This was never brought to Child Protective Services

12

attention.

13

that mother didnt come to me and voice these concerns to

14

me.

15

concerned that mother doesnt recognize the magnitude of

16

her actions on this child.

17

If there was any real concern, I cant imagine

I--I think this is actually reprehensible and I--Im

Had I known this, I would not have made the

18

recommendation I did previously with regard to maintaining

19

the equal parenting time arrangement.

20

enough given the email that I received from Mr. Moore

21

articulating the email he received from Lillian after the

22

Wednesday parenting time that I want to forward that email

23

on to Dr. Margerum, Lillian Songs therapist.

24

concerned that she doesnt recognize the gravity of her

25

actions in my view, or the impact on her child and at this

16

I--I am concerned

Im

1
2
3

time, Im recommending supervised parenting time.

THE COURT:

Okay.

questions of the GAL?

MS. LONG:

THE COURT:

MR. GIOVANNI:

Does anyone have any

I do not, your Honor.

Mr. Giovanni, any questions?
Ms. Middleditch, I have a

question or two.

MS. MIDDLEDITCH:

MR. GIOVANNI:

Sure.

I do think at--I do understand

10

the pos--is it your position that its a problem for you

11

that you werent acquainted with this problem before

12

today; thats correct, right?

13

MS. MIDDLEDITCH:

Yeah, I--I--I, not only me,

14

but not--Child Protective Services, the pediatrician, any-

15

-anyone that would have been able to assist this child

16

outside of either party.

17

MR. GIOVANNI:

All right.

So, my client has--

18

has produced photographs, which are detailed photographs

19

of the childs bottom.

20

MS. MIDDLEDITCH:

Okay.

21

MR. GIOVANNI:

22

I believe there are 20?

23

photographs of severe--in my view, severe rashes on the

24

childs bottom, which she testified occurred at the time

25

that the child arrived from his fathers parenting time,

Theres a series of photographs,

Less than 20, where Ms. Song took

17

all right?

MS. MIDDLEDITCH:

THE COURT:

Okay.

I think she testified that they

arrived from when she picked the child up from school and-

6
7

MR. GIOVANNI:

Yeah, when the pa--at--at the

conclu--

THE COURT:

--no, not directly from father.

MR. GIOVANNI:

Right.

At the conclusion of

10

parenting time, the child showed up--at the conclusion of

11

the fathers parenting time, her testimony is the child

12

showed up with these bad rashes.

13

initial pictures, for purposes of your consideration, show

14

rashes; does everybody agree with that?

15

agree that they show rashes?

16

THE COURT:

17

MS. LONG:

18

chance to read this.

19

copy.

And all the--all the

Would the Court

Some of it.
I--I just--I dont--I havent had a
This is the first time Ive gotten a

20

THE COURT:

Well, just ask your questions.

21

MR. GIOVANNI:

All right.

So, they all sh--

22

well, all the--the initial pictures show rashes and

23

subsequent pictures at the conclusion of her parenting

24

time show amelioration of--or disappearance of the rashes.

25

So my question to you is, how would you suppose that a

18

person such as Lillian, who was concerned about neglect by

the father, how would she document such neglect other than

by taking pictures?

MS. MIDDLEDITCH:

Well frankly, had she talked

to me, I would have advised her to take the child to the

pediatrician to have someone independently review that.

dont think you photograph a child multiple times, how

many times is not clear to me, but its obvious at least

20.

By everybodys account theres at least--or

10

approximately 20 photographs, but if theres some sort of

11

severe rash and it keep reoccurring, which is not so

12

typical on a four-year-old child, and this is not a child

13

in diapers, theres already been some information from

14

both myself and Im sure the parents have heard this from

15

the school directly or his daycare thats hes having some

16

potty training problems.

17

I am no expert, but it seems to me that this

18

regression in potty training where he would not, to quote

19

what the school told me, he would not make a poop on the

20

potty at school.

21

inspecting his anal area, sounds like on a weekly basis

22

for quite some time and--and photographing it, I think

23

could have contributed to that.

24

my proposal would have been if she were seeing this and it

25

were a chronic problem, I would have thought she would

And then, I hear that mother has been

19

Again, Im no expert, but

have sought out advice of a pediatrician and brought it to

the GALs attention.

inappropriate or abusive behavior going on by father, she

was cal--had contacted CPS previously, she would do that

again or law enforcement.

And if she thought there was some

MR. GIOVANNI:

Does it matter to you that my

clients position today and in her answer to the motion

and testimony she was offering any; is that--the pictures

only occurred in conjunction with necessary treatment of a

10

child complaining of a severe pain in the bottom because

11

of the rash?

12
13

MS. MIDDLEDITCH:

Im not sure I understand your

question.

14

MR. GIOVANNI:

In other words, the pictures

15

werent taken by themselves.

16

were only taken in conjunction with the treatment of the

17

rash?

18

MS. MIDDLEDITCH:

Her position is the pictures

And so, my position, I guess

19

as the Guardian Ad Litem, is if there was something

20

medically necessary; why didnt she get the assistance of

21

a pediatrician to take a look at this kid and document

22

this chronic problem and not take a picture and check it

23

every three weeks, but to go to a pediatrician?

24

you know, three times a week, excuse me, and go to a

25

pediatrician and have that independent evaluation done?

20

Or every,

MR. GIOVANNI:

Well, you understand a

pediatrician, the--the parties both had a belief as to why

this was occurring and in fact, the belief is a reasonable

belief based upon the idea that the child is defecating in

his pants and the condition was likely a result of that.

So, its not like theres any, shall we say mystery, about

how this is occurring?

8
9

MS. MIDDLEDITCH:

Okay.

Then, if she thinks

that the child is being neglected in Mr. Moores care,

10

then she needs to document that by doing the pediatrician.

11

Otherwise, they need to be using their A&D or Desitin or

12

whatever ointment or cream, whats prescribed and move on.

13

I dont think we look at the childs anus after every

14

parenting time exchange or the day that theyre exchanged

15

and take photographs.

16

fact, I--I think could have actually been very harmful to

17

Joshua.

18
19
20

Thats not the remedy.

And in

It certainly didnt help.

MR. GIOVANNI:

What about if Joshua is not aware

of it?
MS. MIDDLEDITCH:

Theres--I--I dont know that

21

Joshua is aware of it or not.

I--I didnt know, so I

22

didnt talk to him about this, but I would be hard pressed

23

to believe that a child whos getting ready to go to

24

kindergarten and doing well by all accounts at the daycare

25

would be unaware of it.

Certainly, hes aware that

21

someones inspecting his anal area multiple times a week,

which is not normal.

MR. GIOVANNI:

But we have a--we have a--an

acknowledged problem between both parties and that is a

recurring rash caused by lack of potty training, okay?

have the parties discussing it with each other and both of

them agreeing that A&D ointment is the appropriate

treatment, correct?

We

And lastly, we have my client testifying that

10

its a recurring problem after the fathers parenting

11

time, which she has documented with photographs.

12

has--she is indicating that she has made efforts to make

13

sure the child doesnt know these photographs are being

14

taken, including silencing the--the cameras clicking

15

noise.

16

recurrent problem, Im not understanding why you would

17

recommend that she have supervised parenting time,

18

assuming that she would agree to take no further pictures?

19

Now, she

And in light of all that, with an acknowledged

MS. MIDDLEDITCH:

Because I think that she

20

should have recognized that that was problematic behavior

21

to begin with and--and short of him blindfolding him and

22

putting earphones in so they couldnt see or hear what was

23

going on, I just dont think its plausible to believe he

24

didnt know this was happening.

25

And its not just the photographs.

22

The fact

that she was literally checking him, even after a three-

hour visit with Mr. Moore is very disturbing because my

understanding is, based on what everyone is saying, is

this has been going on for over a year.

MR. GIOVANNI:

Well, you sa--well, I understand

youre still--I completely understand your position about

her not reporting it to others, but why is it disturbing

for her to be--be checking the child if the child is

repeatedly coming back from the fathers visitation with a

10

sore behind and--

11
12

THE COURT:
couple times.

13
14

MR. GIOVANNI:

--and repeatedly complaining

about it?

15

THE COURT:

16

over and over again.

17

I--I think shes answered that a

Were just asking the same question

MR. GIOVANNI:

Wait a second.

Ms. Middleditch

18

and the Court can--can preclude this if the Court chooses,

19

but let me phrase the point.

20

THE COURT:

Okay.

21

MR. GIOVANNI:

The point, Ms. Middleditch, is

22

that youve just testified that it was unusual that she

23

would check the childs bottom and I posited to you that

24

the child was complaining, the child was raw, it

25

repeatedly kept happening.

Why wouldnt she check his

23

bottom?

2
3

MS. MIDDLEDITCH:

Why--why--why wouldnt she

take him to the pediatrician?

4
5

You said it was concerning that she did.

MR. GIOVANNI:

Because--well, my--my--youre

acting like--

MS. MIDDLEDITCH:

Why--why didnt she make

another report to CPS?

to me the--the insinuation is she thought that either

William was neglecting him or abusing him, one or the

10

I mean, because clearly it seems

other.

11

MR. GIOVANNI:

Yes.

You asked me why not report

12

it and Im--my--my answer is, from my clients point of

13

view, its a recurrent problem acknowledged by both

14

parties with a causal relationship with not being potty

15

trained and the parties agreed as to how it should be

16

treated.

17

not treating it properly.

18

The problem was it appeared that Mr. Moore was

MS. MIDDLEDITCH:

Well, or perhaps the problem

19

was that mother was checking it so often and taking

20

photographs that it caused additional anxiety to the child

21

and it just exacerbated the potty training problem.

22
23

MR. GIOVANNI:

Well, thats speculation; is it

not?

24

MS. MIDDLEDITCH:

25

MR. GIOVANNI:

No question, its speculation.

Yes.
24

MS. MIDDLEDITCH:

MR. GIOVANNI:

No question.

So if the--why isnt it--why is

it not satisfactory in your mind of Ms. Moore is told by

the Court this is inappropriate and shall not do it again

and she agrees?

6
7

MS. LONG:

THE COURT:

Right.

Lets--do you have any more-

-do you have any other questions?

10
11

Thats been asked

and answered.

8
9

Objection, Judge.

MR. GIOVANNI:

Did I ask that question before?

I--I dont believe I did.

12

THE COURT:

All right.

13

MR. GIOVANNI:

Lets--all right.

Ms. Middleditch, just a last

14

question.

15

and Im asking you why, if Lillian is told by the Court

16

this is not appropriate in the Courts point of view and

17

should not reoccur and she agrees, why is that not a

18

satisfactory solution?

19

Youre recommending supervised parenting time

MS. MIDDLEDITCH:

Because I dont think she

20

recognizes the--the--I think it was a poor judgment call

21

and Im concerned that she wont continue to make poor

22

judgment calls until we can address this with Dr. Margerum

23

in her therapy.

24

MR. GIOVANNI:

25

THE COURT:

All right, thank you.

Anything further?
25

1
2

MS. LONG:
that, Judge.

I dont have any questions based on

Thank you.

THE COURT:

MR. GIOVANNI:

All right.

No, your Honor.

Well, unless you

want to hear from my client under oath?

THE COURT:

MR. GIOVANNI:

Anything further?

I dont think so.

Accepting what we--we have said

and as fact.

THE COURT:

I will accept what youve--youve

10

indicated that she--her beliefs were as represented by

11

her, okay?

12

MR. GIOVANNI:

And that what she did is a true

13

fact, in terms of treating it, in terms of--of trying to

14

avoid the child seeing it--

15

THE COURT:

Thats--if thats what--I--she

16

doesnt need to get on the stand from--to say that because

17

I believe she would just say that, so I do believe that.

18

MR. GIOVANNI:

Okay.

Theres one more thing,

19

Judge, I thought of that--Dr. Glickman, according to her,

20

has advised her that if shes unable to bring the child in

21

and theres an injury, a rash or something, that she

22

should just photograph it and would document it and she

23

could send it to him.

24

advice that photographing was appropriate and I want the

25

Court to know that; is that correct, Ms. Moore--Ms. Song?

So, she had some professional

26

MS. SONG:

Yes.

MR. GIOVANNI:

MS. LONG:

All right.

No--nothing further.

Judge, not to belabor the point, but

I did, as an officer of the Court, represent what my

communication was with Dr. Forman.

records, who is the partner of Dr. Glickfield and he told

me this would be reportable.

THE COURT:

MR. GIOVANNI:

10

Checked the medical

Okay, I understand.
Judge, I--I--thats been thrown

on the table, but I want to say that--

11

THE COURT:

Im going to--

12

MR. GIOVANNI:

--what Dr. Forman might say if he

13

were here, might have to do with the severity of the rash

14

being reported rather than the pictures themselves.

15

THE COURT:

Okay.

Well, the--the first thing

16

Im going to say is that I do find these pictures

17

disturbing, so I didnt want to, when you handed them over

18

to me yesterday, I wasnt going to look at them.

19

very surprised that mom was taking these pictures.

20

indicated that she--that she took--only took them in--in

21

conjunction with care and treatment.

I was
Youve

22

Well, theres several pictures of here where

23

theres no rash and why would she take a picture then?

24

All right, so I--I--Im not finding that a--

25

MR. GIOVANNI:

I can--I can answer that

27

question, your Honor.

THE COURT:

No.

Im--Im not--Im done with

hearing from the parties.

I dont believe they were taken

in--just in view of--of treatment, I dont believe,

considering the age of the child, that he was completely

unaware of this.

it--it is, and I think the GAL reflected this in her

concerns, that knowing that the child has regressed now

from potty training, it is not out of the realm of

As a parent and using my common sense,

10

possibility that it could be because he is inspected every

11

time he comes to his moms house and every time he leaves

12

moms house in a way that, to me, just cannot be

13

unavoidable that this child thinks is normal.

14

Or if he does think its normal, it certainly

15

could be a big reason why--exacerbate his stress over

16

this.

17

his emotional--that can cause him immediate emotional harm

18

to this child.

19

pleadings that you indicated that plaintiff anticipated

20

that she would be taken back to Court at some point by

21

defendant in retaliation to the divorce; thus, plaintiff

22

believed it was necessary to document the minor childs

23

condition so that she could respond to anticipated

24

accusation.

25

I think it is--I think it is an immediate threat to

I--I also found it interesting in your

This is completely for her protection, not in

28

the best interests of the child.

she might be accused of something so shes going to put

this child through taking these pictures, which I didnt

look at until right now.

they were taken.

been taken for some time.

theyre sitting on her phone somewhere.

about that.

So, shes anticipating

I am more than concerned that

I am more than concerned that they have

I am more than concerned that
Im concerned

If she felt that this child, you know, theres

10

lots of protections in this case for Ms. Moore.

She has a

11

GAL.

12

whatever reason, she didnt want to go to CPS, she could

13

have contacted the GAL.

14

her advice and counsel on how to proceed from that.

15

GAL is very versed in this and she was put into place so

16

that Ms. Moore, Im sorry, Ms. Song would have a voice to

17

speak to that wasnt her husband.

18

do that.

She--if she is concerned about that, and for

19

GAL would have been able to give

The

And she has failed to

She did not raise--you know, we did have the

20

pediatrician here.

We did have the CPS workers here.

21

had our GAL here.

22

surprise to them that mom is taking these pictures.

23

think there is an impact on this child.

24

concerned.

25

poor judgment in my opinion.

We

Theyre all telling us, this is a

I

I am very

I think it is more than--at best, it is very

29

It is, at best, very poor

judgment.

I am going to suspend parenting time until the

completion of this trial.

supervised parenting time, she can work with the GAL to do

that and whatever is satisfactory with respect to

supervised parenting time--whatever is satisfactory to the

GAL with respect to supervised parenting time, I will

approve.

If she wants to set up

I do not want the child to be told that he is

10

not seeing his mom in the same--in the same manner.

11

dont want anything negative said about mom about why

12

theres a change in this right now.

13

have to consult with the GAL as to best approach that, but

14

I dont want any negative com--any negative comments to be

15

heard by this child as to why were changing this.

16

Its--I mean, youll

And I would counsel your client about where

17

these pictures are and how theyre protected.

I am not

18

going to allow these pictures to be made part of the

19

record.

20

pictures.

21

possession of counsel at this point and we will keep ours

22

in possession of ours.

23

next Friday.

I dont want any additional copies made of these

I would prefer that the pictures be only in the

And well continue with hearing

Does anyone have any--

24

MS. LONG:

Ill prepare an order, Judge.

25

MR. GIOVANNI:

May I approach with counsel?

30

THE COURT:

MS. LONG:

THE COURT:

MR. GIOVANNI:

5
6
7

Im sorry?
Ill prepare an order.
Thank you.
May I approach with counsel,

Judge?
THE COURT:

Yes.

Ms. Middleditch, youre still

on--on the line?

MS. MIDDLEDITCH:

Yes, absolutely.

(At 3:07 p.m., bench conference was held.)

10

(At 3:07 p.m., bench conference concluded.)

11

THE COURT:

All right.

Ms. Middleditch, were

12

going to transfer you to my chambers.

13

MS. MIDDLEDITCH:

14

THE COURT:

Okay, thank you.

15

THE CLERK:

All rise.

16

(At 3:08 p.m., proceedings concluded.)

17

Okay.

* * * * * *

31

STATE OF MICHIGAN

COUNTY OF OAKLAND

)ss.

I certify that this transcript is a true and accurate

transcription to the best of my ability of the proceeding in
this case before the Honorable Lisa Langton, as recorded by the
clerk.
Proceedings were recorded and provided to this
transcriptionist by the Circuit Court and this certified
reporter accepts no responsibility for any events that occurred
during the above proceedings, for any inaudible and/or
indiscernible responses by any person or party involved in the
proceeding or for the content of the recording provided.

Dated:

August 9, 2015

___/S/ Krista S. Michels____________

Krista S. Michels, CER #8490

32