Alfattal e Qualitativeresult International Faculty Mobility To Fatih 160226

International Faculty Mobility to
Fatih: The Push and the Pull

Prepared by: Eyad Alfattal
Introduction
The impacts of globalization on higher education are observable in
internationalization initiatives of colleges (Altbach, 2004; Bauman, 1998;
Chan & Dimmok, 2008). Not only do colleges recruit international students,
but also colleges endeavor to attract qualified faculty from all over the world
(Thomas & Malau-Aduli, 2013). While it has been reported almost half a
century ago that colleges are in constant competition for international
expertise (Caplow & McGee, 1958), continuing advancement in technology
and transportation has been making faculty international mobility more
common than ever (Herbert & Abdi, 2013; Lawrence, Celis, Kim, Lipson &
Tong, 2014).
Some of theoretical work on higher education faculty international
movement has employed work from migration theory such as that of the
push-pull model (Lee, 1966; Yan, Yue & Niu, 2015). This model divides
motives affecting mobility into push factors and pull factors. Push factors are
those motivators that encourage faculty to leave their college and home
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country, while pull factors are attractions that embolden movement to

specific destinations (Allison & Long, 1987). Pull-push factors can, in turn, be
divided into social, economic, and security related factors and can have
negative or positive influences on mobility decisions (Yan, Yue & Niu, 2015).
For the purpose of this assignment, I employ the push-pull model in its
short version discussed above while I qualitatively analyze a few pages of a
discussion forum in the Chronicle of Higher Education website. The forum is
on a faculty mobility to a college called Fatih University in Istanbul, Turkey;
and it includes push and pull stories. In the following sections, I provide a
brief description of the measures and the data analysis methods employed.
Then, I present the results and discuss findings.
Measures
The thread selected for this assignment is Avoid Fatih University at All
Costs, within Working Abroad, within Careers of the Chronical of Higher
Education
Forum.
(http://chronicle.com/forums/index.php/topic,29236.15.html). The thread was

created on September 14, 2006; and at the time the thread was copied for
analysis on February 15, 2016, it contained eight pages of discussion. The
first three pages were included in the analysis for this assignment, Appendix
I.
Data Analysis
The main post and discussion pages of the forum were copied to a
Microsoft Word file (total 38 Ward pages). Next, data were coded in two
cycles using theme analysis methods. According to Ryan and Bernard (2003)
themes come both from the data (an inductive approach) and from the
investigators prior theoretical understanding of the phenomenon under
study (a priori approach) (p. 88). Hence, the first cycle is top-down as it
employs structural coding in order to locate conceptual phrases repressing
a topic of inquiry to a segment of data that relates to a specific research
question (Saldana, 2009, p. 66). The topics of inquiry, or priori themes,
corresponded to the push-pull model themes: (1) Social, (2) Economic, and
(3) Security Related. The second cycle of coding was bottom up as it looked
for any additional and freely emergent themes other than those identified by
the first cycle of coding. Hence, inductive and deductive thinking were
employed (Creswell, 2014), while trying to make sense of data and build the
themes of faculty international mobility.
Both cycles of quantitative data coding employed Ryan and Bernards
(2003) procedure of theme identification where the researcher approaches
participants responses while posing the following question: What is this
expression an example of? (p. 87). Using Microsoft Word 2013, the first
cycle used three-color codes to mark expressions relevant to the theoretical
model employed: (1) blue for economic factors, (2) green for social, (3) red
for security factors. The second cycle of coding investigated expressions that
were left from the first cycle without color-coding. Key phrases were
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underlined; then, through cutting and sorting processing technique,

expressions were grouped into themes (Lincoln & Guba, 1985).
Results
A variety of sources of influence shape international faculty mobility
decision. Faculty considering employment offers at Fatih University in
Istanbul, Turkey are pulled to and pushed from Fatih University by a number
of factor domains. International faculty compare alternatives, as well as
investigate work conditions before they make their final decision. The
following exploration reports on the main themes found in the data, and
suggested previously in the literature, economic, social, and security related
factors. The discussion below combines economic and security related
factors under one them, as these were found to be linked in the testimonials
provided by participants. I shall call this combined theme Peace of Mind.
Furthermore, a new theme that I shall call Ideology emerged in the
analysis.
Peace of Mind: Economic and Security Related Push and Pull Factors
Faculty who are dissatisfied with the economic conditions relevant to
their employment at colleges in their home countries consider moving
somewhere else. These are pulled by a number of financial incentives in
destination countries and colleges. Dervish shared that many schools want
to attract foreign expertise, and they try to compensate [] with higher pay
and perks like free housing (p. 22). Dervish believes that while housing rent
may cost a faculty over 35% of their monthly salary in the US, these monies
can be saved if faculty lives and works in Turkey. Similarly, Elisejanes
reported on the economic factors for faculty to move abroad and illustrated
some details relevant to Fatih University faculty package. Take for example
the benefits currently granted faculty in addition to the excellent standard
financial ones: free lunches, including coffee and tea provided all day long
(yes, during Ramadan too); free transportation in nicely appointed university
mini-buses virtually door to door; onsite child care; a housing allowance (p.
4). Hence, as per Elisejanes testimonial, not only are housing costs
compensated for, but also other major expenses are covered such as
transportation, daily lunch, and childcare. With the fact that Faith University
offers a full health insurance, major costs are covered and faculty have much
of their salary to save.
On the other hand, moving to Turkey with a family that has children
may not be an easy decision. Turkish public schools teach in Turkish, and
there are only few private schools in Istanbul and Ankara that use English for
instruction. Devon shares that he [] cannot tell you what to do, but
moving family to Turkey may be too risky. If children are still in school, most
universities there will not foot the bill for children's education (p. 3). In fact,
tuition fees at English speaking schools in Turkey are extremely high as they
were establish for children of diplomats and the wealthier Turks at the first
place. The tuition fees for these schools are about $25,000 annually. This is
an extremely high expense especially for a family with more than one child.
Furthermore, Dervish alerted that there was no tenure track at Fatih
University, which is an important Peace of Mind factor in faculty decision to
accept employment. There is no tenure track at Fatih University. I saw in 2
different places where it advertised that it did have tenure. It does not. Nor
does it have permanent positions there for foreigners (Jtsmr, p. 13). This
was asserted by numerous posts in the forum where Donny70 expanded that
that there is no tenure track for foreign professors at Fatih University is
hardly surprising. There is no tenure track anywhere in Turkey for foreign
professors. The government has decreed that all foreign university staff can
only be offered one-year renewable contracts (p. 16). Hence, while faculty
may be pulled by Fatih generous employment package, faculty are pushed
away by the Turkish government foreign employment policy. Tenure, which
has economic and security related factor dimensions, seemed to be of
extreme influence on faculty mobility decisions to participants in the forum.
Social Push and Pull Factors

Social push and pull factors reported in the forum seemed partially
related to the Peace of Mind theme discussed above. The interaction of these
themes was constant throughout the forum discussions. If fact, while I
discussed the economic burden of faculty wanting to move to Turkey with
children at school age in the Peace of Mind theme above, this topic also has
a social dimension. A faculty needs to consider their social ties and
commitments in relation to their moving decision. Faculty also need to see
whether they can integrate and fit into the new society where they are
moving.
A number of contributors to the discussion reported on Turkey as a
beautiful country with a society welcoming to foreigners. Local faculty in
Turkey also embrace and support internationals. Elisejeans for example
thought that []the graciousness, warmth and generosity shown not only
to one another but also to the "foreign" faculty indistinguishably sets the bar
of collegiality at least as high as I have ever encountered it at any US
university (p. 4). Elisejeans refers to her feeling of inclusion and respect as a
foreign scholar at Fatih and she compares her self-perception there to that
she felt during her employment in the US. She believe that she is
appreciated and treated in a collegial manner at her college in Turkey.
Other stories on collegiality at Turkish colleges were reported in the

forum. Clyde, for instance, reported on an international conference that she
helped organize at Fatih where prominent scholars from around the world
were invited to participate. All those who attended, especially our guests
from Purdue, later wrote to thank us for having them (of course, we were
grateful to them for coming), and many went so far as to suggest that the
conference, and the opportunity to come to Turkey, actually changed them
(p. 3). From this testimonial, it seems that Turkish faculty have a positive
attitude to foreigners visiting or working in Turkey. In addition, foreign
scholars find the opportunity to visit Turkey and interact with its people a lifechanging experience.
Social integration and the feelings of being loved and respected
described by Clyde and other participants were not constant throughout the
forum, however. Some participants reported on their experiences where they
felt less welcomed and had suspicions about the functions and operations of
Fatih University. These suspicions were mainly due to the affiliation of the
university to a religious Muslim organization that adopts the theology of
Fatulah Gulen. Opinions of participants seemed to be influenced by their
position of Islam in general and Gulen movement in particular. Furthermore,
those positions affected how faculty perceived their experiences working for
Fatih University. This dimension of faculty choice and mobility decision was
repeated numerous times and even became the dominant topic of discussion
suggesting that it merits to be approached as an entire theme in its own

right that I call Ideology.
Ideology Factors
Ideology concerns the ways in which what people think, say and do
interacts with society. While influenced by ideological systems, not only do
people construct their self-perceptions, but also they establish their roles and
positions in the social environments in which they live. According to Simpson
(1993), ideology [] derives from the taken-for-granted assumptions,
beliefs and value-systems which are shared collectively by social groups (p.
5). Hence, ideology is derived from the cultural, religious, and political
domains in which people live.
Faculty decision to work abroad can be influenced by their own
ideology in relation to the ideology of the host college, as well as the
ideology of the society in which that college exists. In fact, data showed that
participants have repeatedly focused on the religious affiliation of Faith
University. This theme was so important and controversial to the degree that
the forum discussion turned into a warzone with participants overtly or
covertly working for particular agendas. The moderator of the forum even
found herself forced to delete posts that included personal attacks.
Overall, discussions on the theme of ideology suggest that it is likely
for faculty to feel misplaced if they had strong ideological positions
inconsistent with Fatih identity. For instance, Jtmsr reports her discontent that
students are allowed to do their Muslim prayers on campus at Fatih. She
reports that this University is a conservative and hyper-religious institution
[] there's prayer on campus with an imam present every Friday (p. 14). A
similar negative position of ideological and religious differences was
repeated by Jtmsr in a number of locations in the forum. She tells that many
of them [students] were from very religiously conservative families (with
money) who would not hesitate to stop your lecturing in order to go pray (p.
43).
Evidently, the Muslim beliefs, cultures and social norms are very
different from those of Jtmsr, who not only felt different but also
uncomfortable. A more accepting and moderate position was held by other
participants in the discussion. Selam thought that Fatih is a welcoming place
[] to practicing Muslims who in the governmental sector in Turkey (i.e. the
largest employer) and the public universities are not allowed to pray five
times a day as required or wear the hijab if they wish (p. 35). For her, the
right to do prayers and the right to dress in different ways were basic human
rights that were allowed in Fatih, yet they were denied in many other Turkish
institutions. Selam views this as a positive, towards-freedom ideology.
Discussion & Conclusion

Faculty are qualified individuals who are sought after locally and
internationally. It seems that in todays world geography can hardly limit
faculty activities. Due to advents in technology, for instance, faculty in the
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US can teach online classes for a college in Japan from the comfort of their
home. More common, however, is faculty international mobility. Faculty are
incentivized to leave their home colleges and work abroad mainly through
generous employment offers.
Results of the analysis above showed that faulty are pulled by peace of
mind factors. This can partly be achieved through the employment package
offered by Fatih University in Istanbul, Turkey. Their faculty have relatively
high salaries, health insurance, free meals, and free transportation. However,
tenure is not provided which seemed to be a significant condition for faculty
to make their decision to leave local employment and work abroad. In
addition, English language schooling for faculty children is too expensive to
be afforded in Turkey.
In terms of social and ideological factors, faculty discussed differences
between Turkey and the west as the former is a Muslim country, whereas
some scholars prefer secular societies such as those in Europe. While there
have been stories of faculty feeling welcomed and integrated into the
academic and social lives during their work experiences at Fatih University,
this particular college had religious affiliations that created a number of
suspicions. Faculty with strong ideological beliefs that reject Muslim ways of
life may not find Fatih the best career destination.
References
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Allison, P. D., & Long, J. S. (1987). Interuniversity mobility of academic

scientists. American Sociological Review, 52(2), 643652.
Altbach, P. G. (2004). Globalization and the university: Myths and realities in
an unequal world. In National Education Association (Ed.), The EA 2005
almanac of higher education (pp. 63-74). Washington, DC: National
Education Association.
Bauman, Z. (1998). Globalization: The human consequences. New York:
Columbia University Press.
Caplow, T., & McGee, R. J. (1958). The academic marketplace. New York:
Basic Books
Chan, W. & Dimmok, C. (2008). The internationalization of universities:
globalist, internationalist and translocalist models. Journal of Studies in
International Education, 7 (2), 184 204.
Creswell, J. W. (2014). Research design: Qualitative, quantitative, and mixed
methods approaches. Thousand Oaks, CA: Sage Publications, Inc.
Lawrence, J. , Celis, S. , Kim, H. , Lipson, S. , & Tong, X. (2014). To stay or not
to stay: Retention of Asian international faculty in stem fields. Higher
Education, 67(5), 511-531.
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Lincoln, Y. S., & Guba, E. G. (1985). Naturalistic inquiry. Beverly Hills, CA:
SAGE Publications.
Ryan, G. W., & Bernard, H. R. (2003). Techniques to identify themes. Field
Methods, 15 (1), 85 109.
Saldana, J. (2009). The Coding Manual for Qualitative Researchers. London ;
Thousand Oaks, CA: Sage.
Simpson, P. (1993) Language, ideology and point of view. London, UK:
Routledge.
Thomas, S. L. & Malau-Aduli, B. S. (2013). New International Academics
Narratives of Cross-Cultural Transition. International Journal of Higher
Education, 2(2), 35-55.
Yan, G. , Yue, Y. , & Niu, M. (2015). An empirical study of faculty mobility in
china. Higher Education: The International Journal of Higher Education
and Educational Planning, 69(4), 527-546.
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Appendix I: Data Analyzed

Topic: Avoid Fatih University at all costs (Read 131943 times)
devon
New member
Posts: 10
Avoid Fatih University at all costs

on: September 14, 2006, 2:55:47 pm
There have been some inquires as of the month of April regarding Fatih
University in Istanbul Turkey. Having known many persons who worked at the
university as professors, I must say AVOID this university at all costs. It is not
what it appears to be. The university has a very high turnover in many of its
departments. More recently, I know of 3 professors who were disgracefully treated
by the administrators there as well by with other foreign staff. I had an application
pending there in 2004 but turned it down after having visited the school where I
quickly learned that Fatih University is a propagandist, fundamentalist institution
basing its moderate Islam around the theology of Fatulah Gulen.
The Chronicle has a tendency to publish announcements from this university as
do other academic online sources. One of the principal reasons to avoid this
institution is that they lie about what is offered and play games of changing the
language around. For ex.:
1: There is NO tenure track at Fatih University even though it has been advertised
often as such and still is. There is no tenure, in fact, at all in any of the universities
in Turkey. Foreign teachers are given year-to-year contracts that can be non
renewed at any time.
2: It is my understanding that Fatih University has consistently abused the
contracts of its foreign staff time and time again.
3: Fatih University has a very strong religious enviornment and couches a secret
community of followers of Gulen on campus which has given many of its foreign
staff the creeps! No Turkish person in his right mind would teach there unless
they support the secret community.
4: Fatih University is not popular at all in the country of Turkey because many feel
it is an impediment to the country's secularism due to its fundamentalist and sectoriented beliefs.
5: Fatih University is primarily a religious university desguising itself as an
institution of higher learning. It is NOT an institution of higher learning.
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6: It is a conservative outfit designed to promulgate a conservative, Islamic model

by admitting students from conservative, Islamic families most of whom are
wealthy.
7: Fatih University is constantly advertising positions because their foreign staff
are constantly leaving them! They can brag about their impressive website, but
beware!!....
8: About 4 years ago, Fatih University has previously got into trouble by allowing
female students to wear religious scarves to which the Ministry of Education there
forbade them to allow new students, all based around the belief that Fatih
University secretly wants to introduce "Sharia" slowly into the society. This is why
this university is suspect, highly suspect, because of its conservative, appearing
moderate, Islamic model.
There are many professors who taught there who can provide any example you
want about the lying, cheating, chicanery practiced by the institution. Sure
enough, Istanbul is a complex and beautiful city but if you are an academic
seeking a longer career in academia, being in Turkey may not be the best choice.
The assistant professorship gigs there are not permanent, and certainly are not
known to be! I know personally a professor who worked 12 straight years at
Sabanci university. After his 12th year, they let him go. 12 years of adjuncting and
no security!!!
If anyone is interested in going to Turkey 1 or 2 years should be enough. Then
get out.
Logged
bibi67
Re: Academic Jobs in Turkey?
New member
Posts: 3
Reply #1 on: September 19, 2006, 2:37:03 pm
Hello,
I am about to apply to positions in two universities in Turkey (Fatih in Istanbul and
Bilkent in Ankara). The positions seem interesting, but its very hard to tell from the
description or the web-site what the job conditions will actually be.
After reading this extremely dismal description of academic jobs in Turkey (and
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particularly at Fatih), I was wondering if anyone else could comment on these two
universities. Ideally, someone who has worked there.
I am thinking of moving to Turkey with my family for a number of years. This
would not be a "one-year" thing. Am I being unrealistic?
Thanks a lot
Logged
devon
New member
Posts: 10
Re: Avoid Fatih University at all costs

I am about to apply to positions in two universities in Turkey (Fatih in Istanbul and

Bilkent in Ankara). The positions seem interesting, but its very hard to tell from the
description or the web-site what the job conditions will actually be.
Yes, be careful with what you read about universities in Turkey. It is probably best
to visit there first and then decide. But I have found that most universities there
tend to be the same. Even students from other countries who come to study in
Turkey are amazed at the low level of education there. Unfortunately, they are
correct.
After reading this extremely dismal description of academic jobs in Turkey (and
particularly at Fatih), I was wondering if anyone else could comment on these two
universities. Ideally, someone who has worked there.
I am thinking of moving to Turkey with my family for a number of years. This
would not be a "one-year" thing. Am I being unrealistic?
I have worked in Turkey at one of the universities there. Fatih, however, is not
what is purports to be. Anybody with any commonsense would be wasting her
time there. You see, this is the snag: North American/European academics tend
to be trained more rigorously than their Turkish counterparts, and, I've seen and
heard this time and time again, when they come to a Turkish university to teach,
they are amazed at the high-school level mentality of the students and the
teachers. It is a joke. I've had students to text message their friends while
lecturing, get up and walk around the class, demand breaks, talk all while I was
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lecturing. To be fair, this is a trait in the Eastern part of the world.

I cannot tell you what to do, but moving your family to Turkey may be too risky. If
your children are still in school, most univeristies there will not foot the bill for your
children's education. Yes, Turkey can be beautiful, but you have to be realistic.
There is no tenure track system in the country. It is from year to year. If you can
live like that as a professor, then fine. However, keep in mind the capricious
nature of Turks and their ultimate attitude toward the "yabanci" or foreigner.
But steer clear of Fatih University, please. There are too many horror stories
associated with the school and the people. Have some respect.
Try Bilkent, better reputation
Logged
elisejanes
New member
Posts: 1
Fatih University
Fatih values its faculty highly and foreign faculty retentions almost double every
year (Fatih is only just over a decade old). Take for example the benefits currently
granted faculty in addition to the excellent standard financial ones: free lunches,
including coffee and tea provided all day long (yes, during Ramadan too); free
transportation in nicely appointed university mini-buses virtually door to door;
onsite child care; a housing allowance.
Undoubtedly faculties will vary from department to department, but in my own the
graciousness, warmth and generosity shown not only to one another but also to
the "foreign" faculty indistinguishably sets the bar of collegiality at least as high as
I have ever encountered it at any US university.
As to the scurrilous accusation that Fatih is a thinly veiled fundamentalist
madrassa, nothing could be further from the truth. Fatih adheres scrupulously to
the statewide secularism in force since the founding of the republic in '23---I
myself was carefully advised NEVER to bring religiosity into the classroom under
any circumstances. Having experienced the buckle of the Bible belt for three
years previous to my move to Fatih, I know fundamentalism first hand: Fatih
doesn't even register on the Richter scale compared to that prior locale's
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frighteningly right-wing conservatism.

Fatih is a delightful place, in my view, an enriching experience, and a great relief
from the consumerism pervading US campuses ever more every year.
Last Edit: November 29, 2006, 5:13:19 pm by moderator
devon
New member
Posts: 10
Logged

In response to Elisejanes: Not wishing to disregard your testimony but I, nor my

spouse, who has also taught in Turkey and knows Fatih University, cannot speak
to anyone who has been, as you say, "ousted" for false credentials which wouldn't
surprise anyone, anywhere with any knowledge of this university.
Like Akita University whose problems we also know, we know of several
professors who have had "negative" experiences at Fatih University who have
written us concerning these experiences, one such person who was a part of the
Computer Science Department there. We know of many other professors who
have taught at "blacklisted" universities where there was routine abuse of some
form.
That your experiences do not bear any witness to what these people have
experienced is a matter of differentiation, and I respect that.
However, that does not in any way alter the negative and abusive experiences
form those foreign faculty we have personally heard from concerning Fatih
University. We have encouraged these people to approach various academic
organizations in and out of Turkey to state their cases/experiences for the benefit
of the uninformed.
As relates Fatih University, what we have heard, by post and phone, is that the
students are not very good and that administration is unprofessional. ANY aspect
of misrepresentation from a university ought not be encouraged and is
unprofessional and unacceptable, FULL STOP!
Logged
clyde
New member
A little humanity and less colonialism please

Reply #5 on: September 30, 2006, 3:49:43 am
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Posts: 3
Dear all,
I have been at Fatih for two years now. Last year, I organized an international
conference on the humanities for the departments of American Culture and
English Language and Literature where our distinguished, international guest was
Dr. Susan Curtis, scholar of American Studies at Purdue. She came with the chair
of American Studies, Bill Mullen, as well as a number of graduate students in
American Studies from Purdue. Other participants included a scholar from
England and a former student of mine from the American University of Central
Asia (where I taught for a year before coming to Turkey). The conference,
organized around the theme of "Building Bridges and Crossing Borders:
Transdisciplinarity and American Studies."
All those who attended, especially our guests from Purdue, later wrote to thank us
for having them (of course, we were grateful to them for coming), and many went
so far as to suggest that the conference, and the opportunity to come to Turkey,
actually changed them. Presently, myself, Susan Curtis, and Metin Bosnak (my
chair at Fatih) are hoping enough essays from the conference will be submitted to
publish a conference publication of high academic quality. We will do our best, of
course, and time will tell. This is one side of the university that bears repeating.
Teaching at Fatih clearly requires more of foreign faculty, to be sure. The issue is
not one of how good or bad the students might be--some are very good, some
falling in the middle, and the usual percentage at the bottom. Rather, the issue is
really one of how good, bad, or ugly (in come cases) foreign faculty have
behaved. Any one of my Turkish colleagues, or adminstrators, could write a very
damning review of foreign faculty, and in the two years that I've been at Fatih I
have witness some rather unprofessional behavior that would justify such a
broadside. Perhaps they should tell THEIR side, but have more grace?
What I can say, is that I am a member of a large, international department of
qualified and sincere people who want to try and create something better, and in
collaboration with the local culture and faculty. This requires an investment of
one's time and a degree of sacrifice in which the long view is the thing. Rather
than attack each other, as "Other," something in the spirit of the western
education that I got (in which nothing is quite as cut and dried as Devon suggests)
and the "eastern" education I'm getting (in which there is clearly an openness to
new ideas and western methods) is required. Let that be a better guide to one's
decision to come to Turkey and/or work at Fatih.
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At this juncture, I feel fortunate to have found both, actually.

Sincerely,
Dr. Clyde R. Forsberg Jr.
American Culture and Literature
Fatih U.
Logged
devon
New member
Posts: 10

Reply #6 on: October 01, 2006, 8:28:49 pm
It is a productive idea requesting others to share should they choose, any

unsavoury experiences they may have had at Fatih University as it is a
"blacklisted" university.
To my mind, a foreign individual who is working at Fatih University who reports
her or his experience at that university is predictably going to provide unctuous
praise. They can do nothing otherwise because they are in a very vulnerable
position and are only seeking to secure their jobs. Placing a list of individual's
names who work at Fatih University is probably a mistake for they may be
perceived as collaborating with any of the abuse from that university.
They are many different establishments and individuals who are reading this
thread with interest some in Turkey and elsewhere.
We wish to continue to extend to those who have spoken out against Fatih
University to provide their views here in this public fourm which would be of most
benefit to those who are thinking of employment there which includes those 2
individuals presently there who have informed us that there continues to be active
worship on the campus settings every Friday which I believe is against the
Turkish constitution.
We also extend to those journalists at Cumhurriyet and Hurriyet two liberal
Turkish newspapers to inform the public here of what they may know of Fatih
University. Any information about Fatih University most welcomed from the
Turkish Ministry of Education would be of interest to readers of this thread.
Logged
20
bibi67
New member
Posts: 3
Re: The Gulen movement

Since we are among academics... I would like to suggest some readings on Islam
in Turkey and particularly on the Gulen movement - which is the religious
movement Fatih university is affiliated with. Hopefully, this should allow a more
informed, less Orientalist and anti-Muslim debate.
Turkish Islam and the secular state : the Glen movement / edited by M. Hakan
Yavuz and John L. Esposito (Syracuse, N.Y. : Syracuse University Press, 2003)
Hakan M. Yavuz, Islamic political identity in Turkey (Oxford: Oxford University
Press, 2003).
Logged
devon
New member
Posts: 10

Quote from: bibi67 on October 04, 2006, 6:35:33 pm
Press, 2003).
Dear bibi67,
To my mind, the issue as relates Fatih University is not one of an Orientalist's
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prism, ignorance, tolerance, intolerance or even prejudice vis-a-vis Islam; that is

too clipped a liberal and Western angle. The issue rather concerns what has
come to be unprofessionalism and egregiously overt unethical gestures and
behaviours perpetuated by this university primarily towards its foreign staff.
Fehtullah Gulen's ideology is not what is at issue. However, there are many
Turkish officials, intellectuals and politicians who will argue you that it is. Let me
encourage you to find as many Turkish professors and nonacademics-unaffiliated with Fatih University--for their commentaries if they are willing to give
them to you. Suffice it to say that foreign professors at Fatih University would be
unwise to provide you or anyone with anything other than rose-tinted accounts.
They are cautious.
If you would take a glance at some of the posts here on the same CHE forum
pertaining to AIU (Akita International University), you could gather an
understanding as to how some universities can and do manufacture fear and lies.
I know of some individuals having worked at AIU who have horror stories they can
relate to you.
Also try contacting Dr. Yavuz. It is my understanding that he is accessible and can
give his view of Fatih University.
NB: Dr. Yavuz's book is about Gulen and not Fatih University
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aandsdean
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Quote from: devon on October 05, 2006, 3:52:34 pm

Quote from: bibi67 on October 04, 2006, 6:35:33 pm
Press, 2003).
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Dear bibi67,
To my mind, the issue as relates Fatih University is not one of an Orientalist's
prism, ignorance, tolerance, intolerance or even prejudice vis-a-vis Islam; that is
too clipped a liberal and Western angle. The issue rather concerns what has
come to be unprofessionalism and egregiously overt unethical gestures and
behaviours perpetuated by this university primarily towards its foreign staff.
Fehtullah Gulen's ideology is not what is at issue. However, there are many
Turkish officials, intellectuals and politicians who will argue you that it is. Let me
encourage you to find as many Turkish professors and nonacademics-unaffiliated with Fatih University--for their commentaries if they are willing to give
them to you. Suffice it to say that foreign professors at Fatih University would be
unwise to provide you or anyone with anything other than rose-tinted accounts.
They are cautious.
relate to you.
Also try contacting Dr. Yavuz. It is my understanding that he is accessible and can
give his view of Fatih University.
NB: Dr. Yavuz's book is about Gulen and not Fatih University
Devon, in your first post you wrote:
"3: Fatih University has a very strong religious enviornment and couches a secret
they support the secret community."
It's kind of hard to see how, if this is your position, Gulen's ideology isn't the
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issue. Also, you refer to "moderate" Islam and "fundamentalism" in your opening
paragraphs of your first post in a way that's not really coherent, and also bears
importantly on your current denial that the issue is with Gulen.
I have absolutely nothing to do with Fatih University, by the way, but am very
interested in Turkish society and culture and have followed the Gulen movement
with interest. I personally think that his kind of Islam is to be nurtured and
cherished rather than denigrated.
As far as I can tell, Yavuz's position on Gulen is pretty much wholly positive. I
can't imagine, if he found something sinister in the Gulen-influenced Fatih
University, that it wouldn't show up on some level in the Gulen book, and it
doesn't.
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taikibansei
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Quote from: devon
relate to you.
The AIU thread so far contains negative posts from two current employees, not to
mention other contributions from people who know current employees and/or
have specific concerns about the advertised working conditions. Moreover, the
number of foreigners working full time at Japanese universities is small enough
that there's a good chance at least some of the posters know (and trust) each
other. (At the very least, I feel confident I know Concerned8, and indeed I am
looking forward to his next outburst.)
With regards to Fatih University, you are the only one so far writing in criticism of
it. Furthermore, five of the eight concerns listed in your initial post appear to be
the same (i.e., your issues with this particular religious movement). To me, these
are crucial differences between the two threads.
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Reply #11 on: November 29, 2006, 11:50:33 am
Some posts were deleted because they contained personal attacks and off-topic
material. Please be civil and stick to the subject. Thank you.
Moderator
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jtsmr
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Posts: 244

Reply #12 on: November 29, 2006, 5:06:37 pm
Quote from: moderator on November 29, 2006, 11:50:33 am
Some posts were deleted because they contained personal attacks and off-topic
material. Please be civil and stick to the subject.
Thank you for bringing a sense of decroum to what is otherwise a very serious
topic that many think others should know about. It is important to keep this file on
Fatih University active as I strongly feel that in the near future people will need to
come to it. The information thus far shared about Fatih University has been noted
and is filed by many, many people. Unfortunately, this includes names. I still say if
you can't take punches, don't throw them.
In terms of the infractions listed by devon, I would like to answer them since I
have worked at Fatih University just only a few months ago:
Quote from: devon on September 14, 2006, 2:55:47 pm
The Chronicle has a tendency to publish announcements from this university as

do other academic online sources. One of the principal reasons to avoid this
institution is that they lie about what is offered and play games of changing the
language around. For ex.:
1: There is NO tenure track at Fatih University even though it has been advertised
often as such and still is. There is no tenure, in fact, at all in any of the universities
in Turkey. Foreign teachers are given year-to-year contracts that can be non
renewed at any time.
That is correct. There is no tenure track at Fatih University. I saw in 2 different
25
places where it advertised that it did have tenure. It does not. Nor does it have
permanent positions there for foreigners. The contracts are year to year for them.
That is true. You really never know if you're coming back. Fatih University is
attempting now to indicate in very vague language that if offers a 1 to 2 year
appointment there. Most serious academics certainly want tenure and would only
accept a 1 to 2 year appointment if they already have it.
2: It is my understanding that Fatih University has consistently abused the

contracts of its foreign staff time and time again.
This is also true. The central problem with Fatih University is that it will change its
response to any question from minute to minute, even if the answer is staring you
right in the face. There have been 3 professors before me in the same
department, a 4th one in another department, whose contracts were "reinterpreted" and which "re-interpreted" them out of getting money owed them.
One professor, accused of being a member of the CIA, worked there and is still in
Turkey and can be contacted as he is more than willingly to expose the lies of
Fatih university.
3: Fatih University has a very strong religious enviornment and couches a secret
they support the secret community.
Again, true. What most contributors to these exchanges on Fatih Univ. don't
understand is that Fatih University is not a secret toTurkish people. They already
know about the controversial and negative reputation of the university. Of all the
universities in Turkey, Fatih University is perceived as propagandist and a gentler,
kinder fundamentalist outfit. There is a network of adherents to Gulen's
movement there, as the university was founded via the movement's money. I
knew Turkish professors there who talked of religious meetings and the like on
and off campus; I know what I'm talking about. Also, you have to understand that
people who are hired at Fatih (who are Turks generally) are leaving other facilities
that are controlled or owned by the Gulen movement. There are approximately
over 500 such organizations. And as already stated, I have been communicated
with by a very prominent author that Fatih Unversity is the equivalent to an Oral
Robert's or Jerry Falwell University, take your pick.
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4: Fatih University is not popular at all in the country of Turkey because many feel
it is an impediment to the country's secularism due to its fundamentalist and sectoriented beliefs.
Of course, it's an impediment! It was founded by a hyper-religious organization! It
is not popular; the image of this university is too tainted.
5: Fatih University is primarily a religious university desguising itself as an

institution of higher learning. It is NOT an institution of higher learning.
6: It is a conservative outfit designed to promulgate a conservative, Islamic model
by admitting students from conservative, Islamic families most of whom are
wealthy.
You have to be careful about teaching at a university with a very strong religious
identity, anywhere! The essential reason why is that certain kinds of parameters
can and are placed around the research interests of professors who are either
atheists or religiously non-practicing, all of which may reflect negatively on such a
university's image of itself. And you want to keep something as potentially
explosive like sexual orientation to yourself. Declaring an unpopular sexual
preference at an over-religious university like Fatih Univ. could be suicide.
Another reason why this University is a conservative and hyper-religious
institution is not only because there's prayer on campus with an imam present
every Friday. But as a Western professor, it would behoove one to watch one's
footing. There's a film course of American cinema offered on campus, for
example, that might explain the reality there. About 3 years ago, a professor
shows his class the film American Beauty; the students are appalled at what
apparently is a masturbation scene in the film. Some storm out of this professor's
class, slamming the door and uttering threats. I've not seen the film in so long
that I forget where such a scene is. However, the students run to the Chair's and
the then Rector's offices complaining of being shown and taught immorality. The
professor is reprimanded and is told, as I was told as we all were, to "fast forward"
through any such scenes. Well, it happened again. A teacher who's posted
recently on this subject showed his students the film The Believer, a film about a
young self-hating Jewish man. There is a 60 second "kissing or skin" segment
that surprised the students enough to run to the Chair's office with greivances.
The Chair referred to the film, in one meeting, as pornography.
When I taught the course, I had literally to take off my blazer and cover the TV
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when a brief nude scene or love making or kissing appeared. Even if it were
germane to what was being discussed. I did this with the films Crash, 1984 (the
1984 version) and others. We all censored for our students such scenes, an
action we thought was ridiculous. But because we wanted our jobs, we complied.
It was very difficult lecturing and observing your moral footing at the same time,
hoping that the students would approve you and not run and make up some
unlikely story about you before the Chair or the Rector. It was all so foolish.
7: Fatih University is constantly advertising positions because their foreign staff

are constantly leaving them! They can brag about their impressive website, but
beware!!....
Yes, the staff do rotate more than it should it the 6 year stint of this university. I'm
not sure devon was referring to this professor. But a young man and his wife
arrived at the university the same year as I did teaching in computer science. He
left without a word in December without administering final exams or telling
anyone about his departure. I felt sorry for him because he was often perplexed
by the behavior of the students i.e., the extreme laziness, the shouting and
demanding for breaks, the truancy, the lack of English (Fatih purports to be an
English instruction university; it is. But the students and admins barely know the
language). Another professor, Russian, came last year, saw the erratic and
whimsical behavior of the university and got back on the plane for Moscow!
Judge for yourself.
8: About 4 years ago, Fatih University has previously got into trouble by allowing
female students to wear religious scarves to which the Ministry of Education there
forbade them to allow new students, all based around the belief that Fatih
University secretly wants to introduce "Sharia" slowly into the society. This is why
this university is suspect, highly suspect, because of its conservative, appearing
moderate, Islamic model.
This is true. In Turkey, everybody knows this. At this point in the discussion on
Fatih University, you have to be smoking crack in order to apply there. One of the
posters asked "why don't the foreigners who work at Fatih University speak about
these problems, if they're that bad? etc." Duh! The answer is so obvious. They're
afraid. And, as they say, you can't prove a negative. This is not directed towards
anyone in particular, but many of them have already endangered their academic
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careers through such a complicity. I know this for a fact.

But as I continue to maintain, if you lack integrity or an ethical side, you lack
conscience. Which is why it's so important to create a discussion around the
university in question, regardless of who participates or what is said. And sure,
you can't make somebody possess integrity, be ethical or have a sense of fair
play. We can already cite those who pay wonderful lip service to claiming such
like your Mel Gibsons, Ted Haggards or Mark Foleys, people who present a
deliberate mask of PCness for whatever personal self-interests while harboring
that something so sinister.
I appreciate the moderator stepping in here on this subject of Fatih university.
Because a lot of important lessons have been learned and delicate points made.
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donny70
New member
Posts: 48

Jtmsr, these are the same arguments again. They are weak. Here is why.
1. That there is no tenure track for foreign professors at Fatih University is hardly
surprising. There is no tenure track anywhere in Turkey for foreign professors.
The government has decreed that all foreign university staff can only be offered
one-year renewable contracts. This applies to all universities. Clearly, this is not a
satisfactory situation. But you are implying that only Fatih university does this.
That is misleading. Why should Fatih be singled out and criticised for having to
follow the edicts of the government?
2. If staff contracts have been abused, that is certainly bad. But why do we have
to rely on jtmsr's "understanding" of the situation? Why have these professors not
spoken out, here or elsewhere? If they have left Fatih, they have nothing to fear.
And, in any case they can post anonymously. I keep coming back to this point and
Devon and now jtmsr keep evading it. People can post completely anonymously
anywhere on the internet. They therefore have nothing to fear. So why is there
nothing against Fatih University except what is here from Devon and jtmsr (and i
believe jtmsr mentioned that some of Devon's comments were from him?) The
only conclusion can be that nobody wants to post because there is realy not
much to complain about?
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3. Most of these points boil down to the idea that Fatih University is religious. So
what? There are Mormon Universities,Baptist Universities, Cathlic Universities.
Should we be damning the Cathlic University of Leuven as a dangerous cultish
operation? Why should we care about this?
4. Fatih University is not popular in Turkey. Really? So why have no Turks posted
any condemnations here or elsewhere? Are they all scared of Fatih University?
So terrified that even if they're not at all connected to Fatih University they're not
prepared to adopt an anonymous alter-ego to speak out? Again, the conclusion is
clear. No-one is speaking out because nobody has anything substantial to
complain about.
5/6. Having to fast-forward through sex scenes in front of devout muslim students
is hardly cause for alarm. You would have the same situation here in the Bible
belt. And would you show sex scenes to, say, a group of eleven-year olds?
People always have to show discernment in deciding what's appropriate for the
students they're teaching. I am no friend to religious people. But these students
are entitled to their beliefs and are entitled to have those beliefs respected in the
education process.
And really, were you surprised to find Muslims in Turkey?
7. Students are lazy, non-attending, rude, with bad English. Whose fault is this?
Another perspective is that you and this other fellow failed to motivate your
students, failed to make your classes interesting, failed to adjust your teaching to
the comprehension levels of the students. Teachers need to take responsibility
too. Whingeing about the students doesn't seem a very positive approach to the
job. You are a teacher, and your job is to teach the students that you have.
8. Fatih University did indeed get into trouble for allowing students to wear the
headscarf on campus. The Turkish government was condemned by Human Right
Watch for this undemocratic action. Students can wear headscarves on US
campuses. Does this mean the US has Sharia law? What you call sharia law here
really sounds the same as democratic freedom.
The bottom line is that these accusations about how terrible Fatih is have no
support elsewhere. Jtmsr's claim that people do not criticise the university
because they are scared doesn't wash. The internet and this forum provide total
anonymity. You can create a whole identity for yourself. You can claim to be
Fatulah Gulen's apostate twin brother if you wish. Yet, despite the claims about
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private messages and emails, nobody, either within Fatih University or from
outside it has used the anonymity available on the internet to speak out. The only
conclusion that one can draw from this is that nobody is speaking out because
there are no significant criticisms to make.
I have previously shown myself willing, jtmsr, to engage positively with serious
substantial points that you might want to make against Fatih or other Turkish
universities. But I find deeply frustrating this repeated resort to vague menaces
about there being Muslims at a Turkish University and mutterings about secret
gnostic anti-Fatih cabals with detailed information about Fatih who would tell all if
we could only find them on the Tibetan mountainside where they are no doubt
hiding in fear of the overwhelming wrath of Fatulah Gulen.
Please pardon my sarcasm, but your first post really gave me hope that you
would show us something concrete. As it stands, it looks like you had a bad but
untypical experience and Fatih University is otherwise in the clear. If you can
really provide more information - and not just claims about the silent majority who
are speaking only to you, please - I would be glad if you could do so.
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jtsmr
Member
Posts: 244

donny70,
This is not to be flippant. But I just deleted my response to your counterargument. It just seemed counter-productive. You seem like a bright young
man/woman. Keep vigilant.
In time, in time...
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expatwannabe
New member
Posts: 4

Quote from: jtsmr on November 29, 2006, 5:06:37 pm
And you want to keep something as potentially explosive like sexual orientation to
yourself. Declaring an unpopular sexual preference at an over-religious university
31
like Fatih Univ. could be suicide.

Why would this be suicide if Turkey is a secular Muslim country the way some
have described? Is there a kind of discrimination against homosexuals in Turkey,
at your university? I know homosexuality is illegal in other Muslim countries if I'm
not mistaken.
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jtsmr
Member
Posts: 244
oreintation
Quote from: expatwannabe on November 30, 2006, 4:39:55 pm

Quote from: jtsmr on November 29, 2006, 5:06:37 pm
And you want to keep something as potentially explosive like sexual orientation to
yourself. Declaring an unpopular sexual preference at an over-religious university
like Fatih Univ. could be suicide.
Why would this be suicide if Turkey is a secular Muslim country the way some
have described? Is there a kind of discrimination against homosexuals in Turkey,
at your university? I know homosexuality is illegal in other Muslim countries if I'm
not mistaken.
Well, I didn't mean it literally. Declaring any kind of controversial sexuality could be
problematic even here in the US. Even though, I hate to make superficial
comparisons between being African American and homosexual; I do know that
being African American is more problematic in the US than in Turkey. But that
wasn't your question, was it? Homosexuality is omnipresent even in Muslim
countries, sad to report. Read Malik Chebel, Algerian psychoanalyst/Islamic
scholar. You might also check out Islamic Homosexualities that provides a
cartographic, historico-literary look at same-sex practices in the East.
In Istanbul you have many, what I would call "gay-identified" people.
Hmmmm.....this is difficult to explain. There are many transvestites in the Taksim
area of Istanbul, most of whom look like Big Foot in drag; and there are many gay
clubs. But there's no overt dialogue on the subject, no talk shows a la Oprah on
the issue, no Ellen Degenereses or Rosie O'Donnells. There is progress. Though
Istanbul was host to the 1st annual Gay Film Festival a year ago, homosexuality is
not a politicizing agent in the East.
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Being openly gay at a religiously-identified school like Fatih could en"gender"

serious karma.
Discretion is advised. Good question, btw.
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jtsmr
Member
Posts: 244
Re: Fatih
Reply #17 on: December 05, 2006, 2:28:33 pm
Returning again to this Fatih discussion/posting: I keep forgetting how staunch

and devoted to Turkish secularism the Turks truly are. I nearly fell off my living
room couch Friday evening when Fatih university was profiled on The News Hour
with Jim Lehrer! Those of you not familiar with this PBS news broadcast should
know that it is not only acclaimed (Jim Lehrer as well) but respected for its
balanced reporting.
In light of the Papal babel reported everywhere last week of the Pope's visit to
Turkey, in particular Istanbul, the question of secularism and Islamic
fundamentalism in Turkey is once again revisited. In recent months, for example,
a young radical Turkish Muslim burst through a high administrative court and shot
four judges, killing the one who was a staunch defender of secularism. And if
you've been reading you'll know that a month ago a 92-year-old teacher was
found not guilty for something she said about women who wear the headscarf.
These issues seem like nothing to those of us who live in the West as we take
freedom of expression and the like for granted. The Lehrer report highlighted
interviews with some of Turkey's elite like famous artist Bedray Bekrim, I think is
his name, and of course Guller Sabanci and spoke as well to other, lesser known
Turkish personalities about Turkish secularism and the need for it and its purpose.
Then Fatih university is spotlighted as representing a university with a
conservative, religious agenda, not focused on secularist notions, though two girls
were interviewed about their views on the wearing of the headscarf. It was
curious to see the Dean of Arts & Sciences interviewed in "the Red Room" on
campus saying that "secularists were intolerant." Secularists intolerant? What
seems like a contradiction of terms is a curious conservative Muslim argument
that finds itself comfortably at home along some PC perspectives as can be seen
in some of these exchanges.
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The problem that Turks have (the ones I know and the ones profiled on this
program) with renegade universities like Fatih is that it threatens the secuarlism
that Turks have established over 80 years ago. Even the American Ambassador
pointed out the fear of a "creeping fundamentalism" that many Turks feel exist in
Turkey at this time. And Fatih Uni. is perceived as a block to any secularist
progression.
Westerners, especially Americans, tend toward ignorance when attempting to
understand other cultures and ought to stop thinking that they have dibs on
everything. As one trollish post indicated "we have a Bible belt in the U.S." and
that "we have Mormon, Catholic and Protestant universities" so why can't they is
the kind of arrogance that put us in Iraq! It's that myopic, arrogant viewing that
refuses to take other cultural practices into consideration and how these practices,
such as democracy, free speech or secularist behavior, may DIFFER among other
cultures. We have it, so why can't They?? is bias that ignores the larger issue
which, in this case, is that any Western practice of secualrism is not going to look
the same elsewhere not to mention in a country like Turkey with 3 coups in the
last 40 years or so, related in one way or the other to the threat of secularism
there, and with a new Republic that many believe to be threatened at any moment
by any radical, Islamic movement.
Once this is properly understood, then it's easy for any eyes to see how a Fatih
univ. is perceived as a potential danger to the Turkish infrastructure. The Jim
Lehrer report, btw, took no side but presented what I thought was an impartial look
into the matter of secularism in Turkey today.
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dervish
New member
Posts: 4

I am a US-trained academic working for many years in Turkey (I am not Turkish)

and I have experience at a few different kinds of institutions -- though no
connection past or present whatsoever with Fatih University.
I find the Fatih-bashing here a bit outlandish -- and the supposed insights into
Turkish culture, politics, and academic life possibly even more so.
34
Fatih is not the best or the worst institution in Turkey. But "a potential danger to
the secular infrastructure"? Please. When Fatih was first emerging on the scene
there was the predictable panicked reaction from the stauchly secularist elite,
descrying the establishment of an "Islamist" university and foretelling the doom of
secularism in Turkey, but eventually the dust settled, the sky did not fall, and
everyone went on about their business. The reason you've seen no comments
from Turks on the boards is because nobody gives that much of a hoot about
Fatih. It's a second-tier private university with a religious affiliation... . Academics
in Turkey, like their U.S. counterparts, tend to be left-leaning and secularist, and
it's not hard to get them to bash on religion and religiously-grounded institutions
like Fatih. But there are also those who are sympathetic, or who -- even if they
aren't all that sympathetic -- think there's a place for institutions like Fatih in the
system. Some like it, some hate it, but honestly I don't think most people spent
much time thinking about Fatih University.
I've known a few people over the years who worked at Fatih or collaborated on
research projects with people from Fatih. Most of them seemed happy enough,
though I don't doubt that Fatih -- like most Turkish universities, even top-notch
places -- can pull shenanigans of the type described in previous posts.
This leads into the larger point about academic life in Turkey...
As others have noted, non-citizens cannot obtain tenure-track ("kadro")
appointments at Turkish universities as a matter of government policy. However,
many schools want to attract foreign expertise, and they try to compensate for the
lack of tenure with higher pay and perks like free housing. Despite the year-toyear contracts, there are quite a lot of foreigners who want to work in Turkey -especially Istanbul -- and most are happy to go along with these terms. If they
marry a Turkish citizen or stay long enough to obtain citizenship, they are then
elligible to become part of the kadro -- it's about citizenship. I would also note that
nowadays lots of young Turkish citizens educated in the U.S. and Europe want to
return to Turkey to work, and they too are sometimes willing to teach year-to-year
in order to get their foot in the door if they can't immediately find a tenure-track
spot.
In the last ten years I've seen lots of people -- both foreigners and Turkish citizens
-- leave tenure track jobs (or even tenure) at top R1 schools in the U.S. and
Europe to take less secure jobs here. I'm also seeing more and more Turkish
citizens (I'm avoiding saying 'Turks' because not all Turkish citizens are ethnic
Turks) take their Ivy and top-R1 Ph.D. degrees and return to seek positions here.
35
Most are very happy -- though as I said above, even the best schools can pull
dirty tricks and they all have their share of disgruntled former faculty. There's a
vibrancy to intellectual culture here. There are always interesting people coming
to speak, museum exhibitions, concerts, conferences. Young people (and for that
matter, older people too) care about politics, art, and film. The faculty are diverse
and many are doing really interesting research in Turkey on a wide variety of
topics. They include people from places you might not expect -- there are, for
instance, a number of Greeks on the faculties of top schools.
For all these reasons, the comments made above about Turkey not having any
academic or intellectual life to speak of struck me as incredibly bizarre. Living and
working here has its frustrations -- for both Turkish citizens and foreigners -- but it
is incredibly intellectually invigorating, and getting more so as the academic scene
and cultural life of the country become ever more international and open to the
outside world. Turkish students can be every bit as whiny and spoiled as their
American counterparts, but most of them do care a great deal about the world
around them -- and that can be really refreshing, even if their English is not so
great. They see Turkey changing fast and they want to be a part of that and they
feel empowered to affect its direction.
Of course, people here have different ideas about what that direction might be.
For the religiously inclined students at Fatih it may be an Islamist vision of the
future guided by the philosophy of Fethullah Gulen. Other student populations
look to the EU, or find inspiration in the populist socialism of Latin America.
Before closing, I want to shift gears just briefly and respond to the previous
poster's comments on gay culture in Istanbul, which primarily reveal that he/she
does not speak Turkish.
Gay culture in Turkey is certainly not part of the mainstream media the way it is
now in the U.S. -- but let's not get too self-congratulatory, people, this is pretty
recent in the U.S. as well, and not entirely un-controversial! Still, there most
definitely are serious discussions and debates about gay identity and gay rights in
the public sphere. A few of the more serious national newspapers have run major
reportage series on this topic in the past couple of years, and figures in the gay
rights movement are occasionally interviewed on issues-oriented talk shows on
TV. And then of course there are web sites, blogs, zines, and so on that are
consumed primarily by young activists. There is a major gay rights organization
based in Istanbul that publishes a newsletter, maintains list-servs, runs
counselling hotlines, hosts Pride events each year, and publishes occasional
36
surveys on issues relating to gender and sexuality. There are academics doing
research on related topics at some of the more progressive universities.
Turkey is no gay paradise. Outside of a few cosmopolitan enclaves in Istanbul,
Ankara, and the beach resort towns attitudes toward homosexuality are pretty
conservative. Homosexuality is NOT illegal here, but there are fewer legal
protections for gay people, and most do feel the need to stay closeted at work.
(To what extent this is the case at Fatih University I couldn't say -- my guess
would be that you could find more welcoming places to be out, though I don't think
Fatih's secularists critics are way ahead on this issue either.) In conservative
provincial cities, there have been some ugly scenes when gay rights groups tried
to hold public events or open gay bars. But again... before we start in on the
commentary about intolerance to homosexuality in the Islamic world, let's
remember that similar scenes are not so far in the past in our own society.
Remember Matthew Shepard? And by the way, if you read the Turkish press on
this topic it is striking (at least to me) that the ultra-macho right-wing-nationalist
homophobia is usually way more virulent (and violent) than the Islamist varieties.
Well, I hope at least someone has stuck with me to the end, here. I want to close
by circling back to the OP's original question: Bilkent is one of the top universities
in Turkey, and I think it's fair to say that it measures up on a world standard.
Fatih, less so, though I know people who have been happy -- and have heard of
people getting screwed over -- at both. Turkey is, in my experience and that of
most people I know, a good place to work as academic, and an incredible place to
live and travel. It can drive you crazy at times, but it never gets old and it
continually defies your expectations. The only piece of advice I would offer is that
it really does make a huge difference if you make that extra effort to learn the
language. You don't have to, and for the most part nobody will expect you to... but
even a modest command of Turkish will open doors that you otherwise wouldn't
even know existed.
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donny70
New member
Posts: 48

Reply #19 on: December 07, 2006, 9:31:25 am
Quote from: jtsmr on December 05, 2006, 2:28:33 pm
As one trollish post indicated "we have a Bible belt in the U.S." and that "we have
Mormon, Catholic and Protestant universities" so why can't they is the kind of
arrogance that put us in Iraq! It's that myopic, arrogant viewing that refuses to
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take other cultural practices into consideration and how these practices, such as
democracy, free speech or secularist behavior, may DIFFER among other
JTMSR, there is nothing trollish about my posts. They make substantial points
and pose genuine questions. I would be glad if you could try to address the issues
without dropping in this kind of unworthy slur.
I take a different view on imperialist arrogance. The idea that some cultures are
just not ready for proper freedom is patronising. It is the logic that the US
government uses to prop up undemocratic oppressive regimes such as we find in
places like Saudi Arabia. People should be able to act freely wherever they are in
the world, regardless of religious affiliation or lack of it. If Turkish secularists deny
people the right to wear the headscarf, for instance, this is intolerant. Similarly, if
religious groups attempt to force people to wear the headscarf then this is also
intolerant. Both kinds of behaviour should be equally opposed in all
circumstances, be it the case of headscarf bans in places like Turkey or France,
or women being forbidden to drive cars in Saudi Arabia.
This only fits with the interests of "conservative muslims" when it is they who are
discriminated against - are you saying that they should not have the same rights
as other members of society? You may no doubt think me naive, jtmsr. But if
support of universal human rights is naive, then groups such as Amnesty
International and Human Rights Watch share my foolishness.
I also believe that the best way to discourage fundamentalism is to give
people the democratic right to express themselves freely. It is when this is taken
away that people turn to extremism. (Of course, we should also be careful to
distinguish between "religion" and "fundamentalis": I care for neither, but they are
not the same.)
I hope this was not too "trollish" for you.
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Logged
jtsmr
Member
Posts: 244

Quote from: dervish on December 05, 2006, 6:24:36 pm
I am a US-trained academic working for many years in Turkey (I am not Turkish)

and I have experience at a few different kinds of institutions -- though no
connection past or present whatsoever with Fatih University.
Then what's the point?
I find the Fatih-bashing here a bit outlandish...

Could that be that you've no connection and/or experience with the subject?
Fatih is not the best or the worst institution in Turkey. But "a potential danger to
the secular infrastructure"? Please. When Fatih was first emerging on the scene
there was the predictable panicked reaction from the stauchly secularist elite,
descrying the establishment of an "Islamist" university and foretelling the doom of
secularism in Turkey, but eventually the dust settled, the sky did not fall, and
everyone went on about their business.
Get real! Though Turks may not be writing about Fatih (and this has already been
discussed) there is a valid concern about this university housing a questionable
ideology. Why would Gulen, for example, move to PA, USA if part of that sky did
not cave in? Most people know that there was a rumour a few years back that
Gulen suggested that his followers, be they wherever, seek to infiltrate Turkish
culture with Gulenist ideology. It was a mere rumour for which he was not found
guilty, I'll add. Though, he supposedly left Turkey for such accusations. No, I'm
not saying that Al-Qaeda wannabes are littering the campus at Fatih, but there is
definitely a strong religious presence on that campus that do make more than a
few foreigners self-conscious and Turks wary. To dismiss this as nonsense is,
again, myopic.
This leads into the larger point about academic life in Turkey...
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This is not about Turkey, let me repeat: this thread is NOT about Turkey, but the
practices of one university there in Istanbul called Fatih university. Learning the
language, however, is the best advice anyone could give for living in on any
foreign soil. It will certainly open doors. I have found, in my experiences, many
westerners in Turkey to be somewhat Turkophobic. I know some who've lived
there for years yet don't speak the language. Sad. I mean, what a wonderful
opportunity to meet people of other races, languages and culture.
Logged
jtsmr
Member
Posts: 244

Quote from: donny70 on December 07, 2006, 9:31:25 am

As one trollish post indicated "we have a Bible belt in the U.S." and that "we have
Mormon, Catholic and Protestant universities" so why can't they is the kind of
arrogance that put us in Iraq! It's that myopic, arrogant viewing that refuses to
take other cultural practices into consideration and how these practices, such as
democracy, free speech or secularist behavior, may DIFFER among other
I take a different view on imperialist arrogance. The idea that some cultures are
just not ready for proper freedom is patronising. It is the logic that the US
government uses to prop up undemocratic oppressive regimes such as we find in
places like Saudi Arabia. People should be able to act freely wherever they are in
the world, regardless of religious affiliation or lack of it.
Man, what are you babbling about? Look at that last sentence: pure schlock!
drivel! You're MAKING MY POINT!!!! Why the hell do Americans go on and on
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and on and on--like that damn bunny!--about freedom, free, freedom, free when
they lack it in their own country!?? Especially with the current despotic
leadership!!? Americans don't care about anybody else in the world, on this 3rd
rock from the sun, but themselves! Pardon the harshness. But your youth betrays
you. Let me help you out: You're making the assumption that you know what to
"act freely" is, means, looks like, especially for those of another culture, one much
older than your own, btw. People should be able to act freely is a phrase that
annoys me because Americans intrinsically believe They know how people
should act or what's good for them!
Let me try to dilute those spacious skies and amber waves of grain that are
creating a glaze over your eyes: People are inevitably responsible for themselves.
Period! Something like that. You are blind to the unfair entitlement that you are
imposing onto other cultures when you write such polyannaish BS. And this
entitlement proposition is certainly not inclusive of all Americans as many are NOT
free to act, may you be reminded.
Quote from: donny70 on December 07, 2006, 9:31:25 am
I also believe that the best way to discourage fundamentalism is to give people
the democratic right to express themselves freely. It is when this is taken away
that people turn to extremism. (Of course, we should also be careful to distinguish
between "religion" and "fundamentalis": I care for neither, but they are not the
same.)
I'm not going to allow the above American recipe to excite me. I am not. And I
don't want to stray to far from the subject here in terms of questioning motives of
Fatih university and the issue of secularism. But as I do with my students, I will
leave you with some ideas to ponder:
1):How might an understanding of the history of religious fundamentalism in
Turkey impact views on Turkish secularism today?
2): How have state-sanctioned views of secularism or community-sanctioned
views of religious fundamentalism impacted ways in which both are discussed?
3): How might Turkish secularism be protected in a society where people have
routinely been silenced or imprisoned for political or religious speech violations?
These I just thought of that might come close to the subject thread here about
Fatih university/secularism/religious fundamentalism. And, again, this thread is
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NOT about Turkey as it is about one university engaging in lying, I was lied to and
cheated, and questionable behavior. And "dervish" made a point of mine as well.
Many Turks have more of a familiarity with Fatih university so can, therefore,
easily avoid it. But foreigners who may unwittingly become interested in Fatih
need to have some critique of the school before getting there and realizing it is a
waste of their time.
Logged
donny70
New member
Posts: 48

Why the hell do Americans go on and on and on and on--like that damn bunny!-about freedom, free, freedom, free when they lack it in their own country!??
Especially with the current despotic leadership!!? Americans don't care about
anybody else in the world, on this 3rd rock from the sun, but themselves! Pardon
the harshness. But your youth betrays you. Let me help you out: You're making
the assumption that you know what to "act freely" is, means, looks like, especially
for those of another culture, one much older than your own, btw. People should
be able to act freely is a phrase that annoys me because Americans intrinsically
believe They know how people should act or what's good for them!
jtmsr, don't worry about being harsh: as long as you are addressing my arguments
I won't take offense. Anyway, comments about my callow youthfulness or my
"babbling" are more entertaining than anything else.
I did not claim that everyone in America is free. My point about freedom as
something that should be available to all (note "should", not "is") applies to the US
just as much as anywhere else. To say people should be able to act freely is not
to claim that I or anyone else know how they should act. It is to say that they
should be free to decide how they personally should act and what they should
believe. That applies everywhere. In many places, including the USA and Turkey,
it is not the situation. That does not invalidate it as a goal worth pursuing.
And jtmsr, I don't question that you were lied to or cheated at Fatih. Your story
about how you left has the ring of truth and I sympathise with the situation you
outlined. It sounds like you were treated in an underhand and shabby manner. But
I question whether that warrants the rather large conclusions you draw and the
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books on this stuff. I wonder why it is that people take them more seriously than
you?
You are clealy--how did you put it?--"US trained." Americans are always reminding
some audience of something they're doing. Most professors are working or writing
on something in Academe, dervish. And very few of our colleagues often give a
damn what that something might be.
Good luck in your research.
Logged
jtsmr
Member
Posts: 244


(and I classify those who are Armenian, Kurdish, Cypriot, Greek, Laz who share
the same Altaic language, as Turk/Turkish/Turkic)
ummmm, right... None of these are Turkic / Altaic languages.
Armenian - Indo European, independent branch
Kurdish - Indo-European, Persianate, actually includes several mutually
untelligible langauges. The Kurdish languages most spoken in Turkey are
Kermandji and Zaza.
Greek - Indo European, independent branch
Laz - South Caucasian
And hmmm.... you're quoting out of context. The point made wasn't a delination of
racial orgins or linguistic etymologies rooted in the ethnicities stated nor was it to
question who was or has become a Turkish citizen. The point, in fact, was rather
simple: there are people of many different ethnic origins living in Turkey who
speak what we call Turkish and who identify themselves as Turkish. I do have
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Turkish friends, for example, who will argue you that Istanbulites do not speak
true Turkish. That is spoken in Anatolia, so they say.
addendum: I have always loved Kurdish people (always will) because I find them
ethincally similar to African Americans in many ways. And my Kurdish colleagues
are varied: though they all know Kurdish, they prefer to speak Turksih when they
can and, though Kurdish, consider themselves Turkish, politically.
Logged
selam
New member
Posts: 1
Fatih Not A "Religious University"

I had been following this discussion since it began in October. It came to my

attention because I googled Fatih University for information about their 2007
summer language and culture program. I attended this program last year, and
was incredibly impressed with the quality of the teachers. Hence, I planned to
attend their program again, as did many of the other Americans in last years
program. The discussion that began in October as the moderator indicates, has
been exceptionally virulent. Unfortunately, as far as I can determine, the
messages that have been edited and deleted have been to the detriment of those
foreign instructors who were defending the university against detractors who have
voiced orientalist and anti-Islamic views that seem to have little to do with
employment issues at Fatih. I must say that it is a misnomer, especially from an
American academic perspective, to call Fatih a religious university. It is as
religious as the major state university at which I teach: that is, many of its students
are faithful to their religion. At my university, we have many student clubs
focusing on religion including Jewish, Muslim, and various Christianities but
no one is required to profess a faith to work at or attend the university. This is
exactly the case at Fatih: some (not all) students and instructors may be religious,
but the university itself is not. Hence, it in no way is akin to Bob Jones University
in the United States or even to Catholic universities! Fatih is a welcoming place,
as I understand it, to practicing Muslims who in the governmental sector in Turkey
(i.e. the largest employer) and the public universities are not allowed to pray five
times a day as required or wear the hijab if they wish. Practicing Muslims face
many other forms of discrimination in these sectors of Turkish society, so much so
that they are compelled to emigrate (often to the United States) to practice their
faith. As liberal academics, we decry laws against wearing headscarves in
Western European countries such as France (and possibly other countries), as we
should, but we remain silent when even worse discriminatory laws are the norm in
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a supposedly Muslim country (the majority of the people in Turkey are faithful
Muslims, but the ruling class including the intelligentsia is aggressively antireligious). Moreover, evoking Fethullah Gulen as some sort of demagogue is
profoundly provocative and, as some of the deleted posts pointed out, potentially
participates in a dangerous anti-Islamism. Gulen, as objective Western scholars
(John Esposito of Georgetown University, for one) confirm, is a moderate Islamic
voice who emphasizes dialogue and tolerance. He is a thoroughly trained scholar
in the classical Islamic sciences and deeply imbued in the spiritual practices of
Sufism. Rather than bandy his name about in the ignorant way this discussion
has, those reading this list (presumably with some education) should go to
amazon.com and order his books, many of which are in English. If you are
against Islam, you will be against Gulen. However, if you are at all open-minded
and tolerant, he has much to teach us.
Logged
jtsmr
Member
Posts: 244

Quote from: selam on December 17, 2006, 7:16:41 pm
Hence, I planned to attend their program again, as did many of the other
Americans in last years program.
You go right ahead.
Quote from: selam on December 17, 2006, 7:16:41 pm
The discussion that began in October as the moderator indicates, has been
exceptionally virulent. Unfortunately, as far as I can determine, the messages that
have been edited and deleted have been to the detriment of those foreign
instructors who were defending the university against detractors who have voiced
orientalist and anti-Islamic views that seem to have little to do with employment
issues at Fatih. I must say that it is a misnomer, especially from an American
academic perspective, to call Fatih a religious university.
You must? The Dean of Arts & Sciences referred to Fatih Univ., as a "religious
university."
What is an "American academic perspective"? And is it contagious?
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For one thing, it's amazing to read your generalizations, especially considering the
variety in every aspect within the country. I don't know if you've been to
universities such as Bilkent, METU or Bogazici. The level of education in these
universities is very high. Among the people I know who graduated from METU all
got accepted to good universities in Europe and the US, including Princeton, MIT
and Stanford. It is extremely common for METU and Bilkent (my alma mater)
graduates to continue their post-grad studies in Europe and the US, especially in
science and engineering.
Quote
You see, this is the snag: North American/European academics tend to be trained
more rigorously than their Turkish counterparts
I've been a student in one of the top universities in Turkey and two of the top
universities in Canada. I can confidently say that this is not true (at least for the
better universities in both countries).
Quote
However, keep in mind the capricious nature of Turks and their ultimate attitude
toward the "yabanci" or foreigner.
This is very odd since I've met dozens of foreigners who have been to Turkey and
you are the first one to talk so negatively about a nation that is known for its
hospitality. More interestingly, I can think of many negative adjectives (extremely
hot-tempered, overly patriotic and prideful etc.) but "capricious" is certainly not
one of them. I'm really curious what kind of people you met?
Quote
... I've seen and heard this time and time again, when they come to a Turkish
university to teach, they are amazed at the high-school level mentality of the
students and the teachers. It is a joke. I've had students to text message their
friends while lecturing, get up and walk around the class, demand breaks, talk all
while I was lecturing. To be fair, this is a trait in the Eastern part of the world.
Here in Canada I observe the same high-school mentality of university students in
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every undergrad class. I think it has more to do with the current generation.
Lastly, your unfortunate experience at Fatih University is hardly a representative

of the academic vibe in Turkey and in stark contrast with my experiences in METU
and Bilkent.
Logged
nkt777
New member
Posts: 2
I knew I forgot to reply something. Thank you musti for reminding me.
Even students from other countries who come to study in Turkey are amazed at
the low level of education there. Unfortunately, they are correct.
Actually when I first came here, I was totally amazed at the low level of education
in US in comparison to Turkey. Of course undergrad education at METU might
have raised my standards too much.
If you are talking about graduate level, then you might have a point, because most
Turkish universities regard training the undergrads as their foremost duty, even if
they offer advanced degrees.
Turkish high school students are better in maths and science compared to US
students. I have seen more than half of an MIT undergrad class being unable to
go through a math problem that would be a piece of cake in my (Turkish) high
school. Or maybe it is just that the younger generation is deteriorating as I'm not
sure how are high school students of today doing in Turkey. Anyway, Turkish
undergrads end up having an edge in their background education in this way. I am
not sure if it is still that way but in my time (last decade), students going abroad for
undergrad education were regarded as rich, lower end students who couldn't get
into the Turkish universities.
Then in undergrad, compared to Americans, Turkish universities are much better
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in what they do. But that is because what they do is not the same as what
American universities are trying to do. Their aim is to prepare professionals, not
researchers. If you give a Turkish engineering undergrad a design problem, he will
solve it properly. If you tell him to go find a technical paper about the problem, he
might ask you where the technical papers are, or if he can look for a published
code or engineering standard instead. The education system is different.
Quote
You see, this is the snag: North American/European academics tend to be trained
more rigorously than their Turkish counterparts
That makes no sense whatsoever, because top Turkish universities require their
academics to have spent at least a portion of their PhDs in North America or
Europe (usually the entire PhD). So they all have the same training.
Quote
However, keep in mind the capricious nature of Turks and their ultimate attitude
toward the "yabanci" or foreigner.
What exactly is the "attitude"? Could you describe for my curiosity.
Quote
... I've seen and heard this time and time again, when they come to a Turkish
university to teach, they are amazed at the high-school level mentality of the
students and the teachers. It is a joke. I've had students to text message their
friends while lecturing, get up and walk around the class, demand breaks, talk all
while I was lecturing. To be fair, this is a trait in the Eastern part of the world.
And I have seen students eat, drink, make out, take off their shoes and put their
feet on the desk (towards the lecturer) during classes in USA. Comparing the
average level of respect one would expect from the students in Turkey to in US,
Turkey stands higher.
The problem is, an instructor's status in the eyes of the Turkish students tends to
be more precarious. You might have to earn their respect in the first couple of
weeks. This is a tricky business. If throw in a few jokes and try to be friendly, they
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Logged
shahrezade1
001
New member

Reply #36 on: January 28, 2007, 2:12:03 pm
Posts: 13
There is no state dept warning. Turkey is at least as safe as the U.S.
Logged
jtsmr
Member
Posts: 244
Quote from: shahrezade1001 on January 28, 2007, 2:12:03 pm
There is no state dept warning. Turkey is at least as safe as the U.S.
Echoing Sharezade, it's not a bad idea to keep check with your Embassy about
such matters. You can always go online at any time. Turkey, now and again, has
these kinds of flair-ups. But so do France and England. Then there's the
question of earthquakes in Turkey. You can also check online for this as well.
As long as you're not in the way of the rioting and rioters, or waving any kind of
Western flag to demonstrate protest or support, you should be fine if visiting. Just
as advice: respect the locals ;0
Logged
helpful
Re: advisory?
Distinguished
Senior
Member
Posts: 10,848
Quote from: expatwannabe on January 26, 2007, 2:59:05 pm
Does anyone if there's a warning traveling to Trukey because of the recent
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assasination? HOw safe is it for foreigners?
Just be careful if you have an Armenian name.
Logged
notaprof
Not a
Distinguis
hed
Senior
Member
Posts:
11,817
In addition to the State Dept site to monitor safety in Turkey or any where else, you
may want to also check the British, Canadian and Australian versions of the same
thing. Other countries will likely have similar versions of advice to their own citizens
but I picked these because they are in English. I think you get a fuller idea of the
situation if you read more than one country's assessment because the reports can be
quite politicized. The US may have a travel warning for one country while none of the
others will.
Australian Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade.
http://www.smartraveller.gov.au/
British Foreign & Commonwealth Office
http://www.fco.gov.uk/servlet/Front?
pagename=OpenMarket/Xcelerate/ShowPage&c=Page&cid=1007029390590
Canadian Foreign Affairs and International Trade
http://www.voyage.gc.ca/dest/ctry/reportpage-en.asp
US Department of State
http://travel.state.gov/visa/americans/americans_1252.html
Logged
Quote from: infopri on December 28, 2013, 1:30:13 pm
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Be the Teflon.
jtsmr
Re: advisory?
Member
Posts: 244
Quote from: helpful on January 29, 2007, 10:27:35 pm

Quote from: expatwannabe on January 26, 2007, 2:59:05 pm
Does anyone if there's a warning traveling to Trukey because of the recent

assasination? HOw safe is it for foreigners?
Just be careful if you have an Armenian name.
LOL!! Your posts, helpful, consistently provoke laughter! Your statement may not
be intentionally funny but it does bring to mind the nature of dialoging on such
gentle topics like the Armenian genocide, Kurdish independence or Cypriot
goings-on. More than a few Turks have more than a few opinions on these
subjects, Fatih University notwithstanding.
Logged
thankyou
New member
Reply #41 on: February 18, 2007, 2:37:03 am
Posts: 2
Hello
- well I just was jumping around on the internet. and i came to this forum.
I read quite a few of the posts.
and my interest is--that I worked at fatih university in 2000 and 2001.
because i skimmed many articles-i'll just give my comments.
First off I am not religious nor would i be consider conservative.Actually I was
probably the most different thing that entered that university---(not in an absurd
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colleges/universities in America that are protestant affiliated such as, among

hundreds of others, Monstreat College, whose motto is Christ-centered, Studentfocused and Service-driven.
The difference is that these institutions do not have to HIDE any religious
affiliations they may have. It's stated in their mission statements and even
employment announcements. Even Lithuania Christian College does the same.
Fatih University does, in no way, indicate its affiliation to a conservative and/or
moderate Islam. It cannot, in fact, advertise as such as far as the law allows. If
there are people, Turkish or no, who would feel uncomfortable in any Islamic
ideological setting, they should be informed by the institution that such an
ideology exists before allowing foreign faculty onto their campuses. It's a fair
opportunity that would give people a chance to decide.
Here is a site where those not familiar with the scarf controversy at Fatih can
read. But it's part of the Fehtullah Gulen site; so it may not be entirely objective:
en.fgulen.com/content/view/715/14
This has already been stated but I and others were constantly asked if we were
"Muslims" or "married." Of course, these questions are illegal to ask in some
circles. But being asked such questions can make anyone wary, if not nervous.
This happened at Fatih University. So there was proselytizing, even from student
to student.
Quote from: thankyou on February 18, 2007, 2:37:03 am
However--unless they are whipping you-- berating you name calling-trying to

convert you-- or some other unmentionable atrocities-- whats the problem--if you
don't like it -don't teach there-- If you want to get into a political or religious
debate--or even one of ideology-- then join a group or enter politics.
If you fear job security-- well in most cases and work -everywhere in the world
nothing is guaranteed-- so be prepared.-just in case-MY job was as a teacher--and that is what I did.
thankyou, there was and still is, politico-religious talk at Fatih University, more
among its Turkish staff than not, as there is worship on campus. The problem is
not about "not teaching there" if you don't like it. The issues here have been
clearly delineated. But to reiterate some: Fatih advertized, more than once, TT
positions at its institution when there are none. But it was too late for some of us
because we'd already arrived at the university only to hear the bombshell.
There's a strong Muslim coiterie on campus as well. The point isn't that "there
62
shouldn't be such things" but rather let your prospective academic candidates
know WHO you are instead of finding out the Janus truth at the 11th hour. And the
stories, of tacitly encouraged plagiarism, lying, consulting with the Chair
constantly because you don't like a teacher and rampant plagiarism--did I mention
that already?? And the poor foreign instructors struggling psychologically to adapt
to the endless s*** . . . That is the point! Fatih University is flouting the law, and
this disrespect of the law makes the jobs of their foreign faculty vulnerable. Fatih
University is not an honest institution with its foreign faculty and has developed
more of a blacklisted reputation because of it. It has a long way to go.
There are other issues that I've not gone into for obvious reasons. But as already
been stated, persons interested in Turkish academics should seek institutions with
better reputations.
Logged
thankyou
New member
Reply #43 on: February 20, 2007, 12:04:48 pm
Posts: 2
No--I am not a troll--just expressing a view--which I am sure is not all knowing.

And I was there a while ago-things could of changed. But -to agree with some
points-- yes--some (only noticed it in a few--but could see it hidden in others)did
seem zealot like in their view, function AND OTHER-- i TRIED TO LET IT
ALONE--AND HOPE-- but i saw only a minority of students and teachers-- and
the heavy view I found came through some students-not instructors(but then
again i wasn't really in the fold-)--- However--I still enjoyed my time there-and yet i
can also see why others wouldn't or may not- that is all I can say-- but then again I
also like walking in thunderstorms without hat or umbrella-- cheers
Logged
jtsmr
Member
Reply #44 on: April 02, 2007, 4:52:14 pm
Posts: 244
63
Quote from: thankyou on February 20, 2007, 12:04:48 pm
No--I am not a troll--just expressing a view--which I am sure is not all knowing.

And I was there a while ago-things could of changed. But -to agree with some
points-- yes--some (only noticed it in a few--but could see it hidden in others)did
seem zealot like in their view, function AND OTHER-- i TRIED TO LET IT
ALONE--AND HOPE-- but i saw only a minority of students and teachers-- and
the heavy view I found came through some students-not instructors(but then
again i wasn't really in the fold-)--- However--I still enjoyed my time there-and yet i
can also see why others wouldn't or may not- that is all I can say-- but then again I
also like walking in thunderstorms without hat or umbrella-- cheers
Sorry for responding so late. Walking in thunderstorms sans umbrella is a useful

metaphor to describe working at Fatih University. There were, and are, a few
ideological, zealots who are part of the Fehtullahcillar at the university who always
took a dim view of anything American or Western. The things I heard.... I know of
one hu who would quizz me anything Bush, Zionist any chance he got, poor thing.
The students are the living dead at this university. I've gotten more active
attention and participation from autistic students I've taught. And that's the truth!!
I feel for the Western teachers there. But I'm told many are actively looking
elsewhere, bless their hearts.
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International Faculty Mobility to

Fatih: The Push and the Pull

country, while pull factors are attractions that embolden movement to

(http://chronicle.com/forums/index.php/topic,29236.15.html). The thread was

underlined; then, through cutting and sorting processing technique,

Social Push and Pull Factors

Other stories on collegiality at Turkish colleges were reported in the

suggesting that it merits to be approached as an entire theme in its own

Discussion & Conclusion

Allison, P. D., & Long, J. S. (1987). Interuniversity mobility of academic

Appendix I: Data Analyzed

Avoid Fatih University at all costs

6: It is a conservative outfit designed to promulgate a conservative, Islamic model

Re: Academic Jobs in Turkey?

Reply #1 on: September 19, 2006, 2:37:03 pm

Re: Avoid Fatih University at all costs

I am about to apply to positions in two universities in Turkey (Fatih in Istanbul and

lecturing. To be fair, this is a trait in the Eastern part of the world.

frighteningly right-wing conservatism.

Last Edit: November 29, 2006, 5:13:19 pm by moderator

Re: Avoid Fatih University at all costs

In response to Elisejanes: Not wishing to disregard your testimony but I, nor my

A little humanity and less colonialism please

At this juncture, I feel fortunate to have found both, actually.

Re: Avoid Fatih University at all costs

It is a productive idea requesting others to share should they choose, any

Re: The Gulen movement

Re: Avoid Fatih University at all costs

Quote from: bibi67 on October 04, 2006, 6:35:33 pm

prism, ignorance, tolerance, intolerance or even prejudice vis-a-vis Islam; that is

Re: Avoid Fatih University at all costs

Quote from: devon on October 05, 2006, 3:52:34 pm

Re: Avoid Fatih University at all costs

Quote from: devon

Re: Avoid Fatih University at all costs

Re: Avoid Fatih University at all costs

Quote from: moderator on November 29, 2006, 11:50:33 am

The Chronicle has a tendency to publish announcements from this university as

2: It is my understanding that Fatih University has consistently abused the

5: Fatih University is primarily a religious university desguising itself as an

7: Fatih University is constantly advertising positions because their foreign staff

careers through such a complicity. I know this for a fact.

Re: Avoid Fatih University at all costs

Re: Avoid Fatih University at all costs

Re: Avoid Fatih University at all costs

Quote from: jtsmr on November 29, 2006, 5:06:37 pm

like Fatih Univ. could be suicide.

Quote from: expatwannabe on November 30, 2006, 4:39:55 pm

Being openly gay at a religiously-identified school like Fatih could en"gender"

Returning again to this Fatih discussion/posting: I keep forgetting how staunch

Re: Avoid Fatih University at all costs

I am a US-trained academic working for many years in Turkey (I am not Turkish)

Re: Avoid Fatih University at all costs

Quote from: jtsmr on December 05, 2006, 2:28:33 pm

Re: Avoid Fatih University at all costs

Quote from: dervish on December 05, 2006, 6:24:36 pm

I am a US-trained academic working for many years in Turkey (I am not Turkish)

I find the Fatih-bashing here a bit outlandish...

Re: Avoid Fatih University at all costs

Quote from: donny70 on December 07, 2006, 9:31:25 am

Re: Avoid Fatih University at all costs

Quote from: jtsmr on December 07, 2006, 3:43:24 pm