BerlinWallInterview

Interviewers:LenaandLieselKemmelmeier

Interviewee:FlorianKemmelmeier

FlorianKemmelmeierwasraisedinGermanyduringtheColdWarandisaBerlin
resident,tourguidefortheBerlinWall,andGermanhistorianandanthropologist.
Interviewer:HowdidtheBerlinWallcausethoselivinginBerlin(specificallyin
theEast)toencounterproblemsbothintheireverydaylifeandwiththeir
families?
Florian:Tostartwith:ManyEastBerlinershadbeenworkinginthewesternpartofthecity,so
whenthewallwaserectedon11August1961,manycouldsimplynotgettowork.Those
Easternerswhohadstayedovernightatafriend'sorafamilymember'splacehadthedifficult
choiceiftheyshouldstaythere(sometimesleavingparents,children,partnersetc.behind)or
gobacktotheEasttocontinuetheirlife.TheeconomicandgeneralsituationintheDDR/GDR
hadbeenandcontinuedtobeworsethanintheWest,soupto1961manyEasternershad
movedtothewesternpartsofGermany(whichwasthekeyreasonfortheGDRgovernmentto
buildthewall,inordertopreventitsowncitizensfromleavingthecountry),whichwasnolonger
possibleafterwards.OnlyretiredpersonswereallowedtovisitrelativesintheWest.Allothers,if
theywantedtojoinrelativesintheWest,hadtomakeachoiceforlife.Iftheyappliedforleaving
theGDR,itwasnotcleariftheywouldbegrantedpermission,andsincetheyweresuspectofa
sortof'treason'totheGDR,theyoftenexperienceddiscrimination.Noteveryoneofcoursehad
familyintheWest.ForthevastmajorityofGDRcitizens,theonlypossibilitytogetabroadwas
todosometourisminCzechoslovakiaorHungary.

I
nterviewer:HowwastheBerlinWallanexchangepointforpeoplewithdifferent
ideasorpeoplefromdifferentplaces?

Florian:Basically,Iwouldsaythewallwasnotanexchangepointandrathertheprohibited
exchangeamongpeople.
Imean,onecouldsaythattheSovietUnionandAmericantanksfacingeachotherat
"CheckpointCharlie"(oneofthefewcrossingpointsintheBerlinWall)inOctober1961meant
oneofthepeaksoftheColdWar,showingbothsideshowclosetheywereto'realwar'(which
wouldmostcertainlyhavebeenanuclearwarofmutualannihilation).
Ontheotherhand,onemaybecouldsay,thatontheWesternsidethewallbecamea
symbolfortheinhumanityofthecommunistregimesandthereforebroughttogetherallkindsof
anticommunistinitiativesontheWesternside,aswellasartistspaintingonthewall,for
example).TotakealookattheBerlinWallwasalsoastandardprogramforinternationalguests

ofWestBerlin.ButIamnotsurewhetherthisshouldbecalled"exchange",maybethewall
becamearatherasymbolofselfaffirmationinallthis.

Interviewer:HowdidtheBerlinWallimpacttheworldandpeopleincountries
otherthanGermany?

Florian:Thisisdifficulttosayforme.IwouldsayingeneralthattheBerlinWallwasimportant
notthatmuchbecauseofthepracticalconsequencesofthese150kmofwallaround
WestBerlin,butratherasasymbol.BerlinplayedanimportantroleinthecontextoftheCold
War.Definitelyinmostpartsoftheworldthe'hotconflicts'duringtheColdWar,inwhichthe
confrontationofthetwosuperpowersUSandtheSovietUnionplayedacrucialrole,werefar
moreimportant(andcloser)thanBerlin,justtakealookatKoreaorVietnaminAsia,orKongo
inAfrica.However,oneofthequestionsoftheColdWarwas,howcountrieswoulddevelopand
iftheywouldjointheWesternortheEasternCamp.TheBerlinWallinthisregardmighthave
cementedakindofstalemateinthemiddleofEurope.IncountrieslikePolandor
CzechoslovakiaitmayhavebecomeadditionallyclearwiththeconstructionoftheBerlinWall,
thathopestofindfreedom,democracyorasortofpeacefulreunificationofEuropewerein
vain.OnecouldaddthatmostofGermanysneighborsdidnothaveanyinterestatalltohavea
strongandundividedGermanyasaneighbor,theexperienceofWWII(onlysome20years
ago),whenGermanyhadattackedthemwascertainlyalltoofreshtomany.
Asasideremark:Between1955and1969theofficialWestGermanpolicywasthatif
anothercountrywouldrecognizetheGDRasastate,diplomaticrelationswithWestern
Germanywerecutoff.InconsequencealmostonlycountriesthatwereintheSovietledbloc
recognizedtheGDRasastate.

Interviewer:WhywastheU.SsoinvolvedwiththeBerlinCrisis?

Florian:KennedysupposedlysaiduponlearningabouttheconstructionoftheBerlinWall:A
wallisbetterthanawar.TheUSfearhadbeenaboveall,thatthespecialstatusofWestBerlin,
whichwascontrolledasaresultofWWIIbyallfourAlliedpowers(US/British/French(/Soviet)
wouldbejeopardized,andevenworse,thatthetinyislandofWestBerlin,surroundedby
communistEasternGermany,couldbeeasilytakenbyanattackoftheSovietArmy.Andthis
wouldhavecertainlyhavehadagain:rathersymbolicallythanpracticallyfarreaching
consequencesfortheColdWarledallovertheglobe.TheUSthereforethreatenedwith
massive(nuclear)retaliationincaseofanyattack.Bytheendofthe1950stheUSwasno
longerthedominatingsuperpower,theSovietUnionhadcaughtup,beingforexamplefirstin
sendingasatelliteintospace(whichcreatedthesocalledsputnikshockintheWest).Soto
keepBerlinfreewasveryimportantasasymbol,allthemoresincetheUSandWestern
militarywascomparativelyweekincomparisonwiththeSovietUnion.ForBerlinersthememory

ofKennedysspeechin1963withthefamoussentence:IchbineinBerlinerisveryimportant,
becauseKennedysaidthatBerlinwasasymboloftheFreeWorldwhichshouldbedefended.

Interviewer:WhathappenedafterwardsbecauseoftheBerlinWall?

Florian:DefinitelytheBerlinWallcontributedinthelongerruntorisingfeelingsofdissatisfaction
amongthecitizensoftheGDR.Manyfelttrappedandcomparedtheirsituationtotheoneof
Westernerswhichtheycouldlearnaboutforexampleon(Western)televisionwhichcouldbe
receivedinmostpartsofEasternGermany.Inthe1980sthesloganDieMauermuweg(sth.
likeThewallneedstofall)waspartofthepeacefulprotestswhichledonthebackdropofa
reformpolicycarriedoutunderGorbachevintheSovietUniontothecollapseoftheGDR
regimein1989.TheWallwhichinEasterntermswasalwayslabelledAntifaschistischer
Schutzwall(sth.likeantifascistprotectionwall)pretendingitwasdirectedagainstintruders
fromthewest(andnotagainsttheowncitizenstryingtoleavethecountry,asitwasinreality)
hadbecomealsoasymbolofthehypocrisyofthegoverningpartyelitesintheGDR,thatpeople
wereprotestingagainst.

Interviewer:WhatwastheBerlinWall'shistoricalsignifigance?

Florian:IwouldsayitsortofsymbolizedandcementedthestalemateoftheColdWar.Andit
symbolizedaswellthepoweroftheGDRregime.ThefalloftheWallon9November1989(i.e.
thatpeopleallofasuddenweregenerallyallowedtoleavetheGDR)wasTHEcentralevent
duringthecollapseoftheGDRin1989.Thedissolutionoftheotherremainingcommunist
regimesinEuropecanbeseenatleastpartiallyasaconsequenceofthis.Inthisregard,the
WallsymbolizedtheColdWarinternationalorderinEurope,anditsfallmadecleartherewould
beanewone.

Interviewer:WhatdefinedEastBerlin/EastGermanyandWestBerlin/West
Germanyastwoseparateworlds?

Florian:Firstofall,ofcoursethepoliticalsystem(onecouldsayalotmoreaboutthispoint).
GenerallyalsothebetterlivingconditionsintheWest(notjustfinancially),butontheotherhand
forexampletherewasnounemploymentintheEast.Infactthetwoworldswereseparate
becausetravelingtotheothersidewassortofdifficult(forWesterners)orallbutimpossible(for
mostEasterners),buttheworldsremainedalsosortofintermingled.Therespectiveotherside
playedanimportantroleinpolitics.Untilthe1960sforbothGermanStatessaidthatthe
legitimateGermanstatewasthemandthattheywouldstriveforreunification.Inthebeginning
ofthe1970stherewasmutualrecognitionasseparateentities(theBRD/WestGermanyandthe

GDRsignedatreaty).ForkidsofmygenerationintheWestgrowingupaschildreninthe
1980s,itwassimplynormalthatthereweretwoGermanStates,wesawEasternersratheras
ForeignersthanasCompatriots.Iremembermypersonalfirstexperiencewithsomeonefrom
theEast,wheninourschool(IthinkIwas11,itmusthavebeenin1989)aboyfromtheGDR
whosefamilyhadmovedtotheWest(IamnotquitesureifitwasbeforeorafterNovember,
duringthesummermanypeoplehadfledviaHungary,wheretheborderwasnolongerstrictly
controlled)appearedinourSportclass.Ididnothavemuchcontactwithhimwemetonly
duringsports.Hehadasportsdresswhichseemedtousveryoldfashioned,talkedafunny
dialect(probablySchsisch/Saxonian),hishaircutwastouscompletelyoutofdate,soIwould
assumehisstartamongusotherswasnotaseasyasthat(poorhim!).TousintheSouthwest
ofGermanyheclearlycamefromaseparateworldwhichwehadneverknownmuchabout
before,norwerereallyinterestedin,somethingwhichwasrathertypical(unfortunately).
However,incontrasttosomeofmyfriends,IfeltrealjoywiththepeacefulrevolutionintheGDR
andtheGermanreunification