Transcript: BBC Question Time, 22 October 2009

DD: … Tonight, finally they face our audience, the voters. Welcome to Question
Time.
[credits]

And with me tonight, Jack Straw, the Justice Secretary, formerly a Home and
Foreign Secretary. The Conservative Shadow Minister for Community Cohesion,
Sayeeda Warsi, recently named the most powerful Muslim woman in Britain. The
man narrowly beaten by Nick Clegg to the leadership of the Liberal Democrats,
the party’s Home Affairs spokesman, Chris Huhne. The leader of the British
National Party, Nick Griffin. And the American-born playwright and deputy
director of the British Museum, Bonnie Greer.

Well, good evening and welcome, and as always the panelists haven’t seen the
questions in advance. Let’s have the first question from Peter Logg, Peter Logg.

Logg: Given that the second world war was fueled by the need to disarm
oppressive and racist regimes, is it fair that the BNP has hijacked Churchill as its
own?

DD: Is it fair that the BNP has hijacked Churchill? Jack Straw.

JS: Its certainly not fair, and one of the extraordinary things about the second
world war and the first world war, was not only that we fought Nazism in the
second world war and defeated it – a party and an ideology based on race, just
like another party represented here today, based on race, fundamental to its
constitution. And its that difference by the way, the fact that the BNP defines
itself on race, which distinguishes it from every other political party I can think
of. And what is common of every other political party that I can think of,
regardless of their political differences, is that they have, each have a moral
compass, and they show respect, a recognizable moral compass for them, based
on longstanding cultural and philosophical and religious values of Western
society. Nazism didn’t, and neither I’m afraid does the constitution of the BNP.
The other thing I’ll say is this. We only won the first world war, and we only won
the second world war, because we were joined in those wars by millions of black
and Asian people from around the world.

[applause]

[02:41 CAPTION: follow on Twitter @bbcquestiontime]

My constituency’s twinned with a little town in Northern France called Peron.

[02:52 CAPTION: text your comments to 83981 normal rates apply digital TV
press red button; ceefax page 155] It was massacred in the first world war at the
battle of the Somme. Hundreds of people from East Lancashire, lads from East
Lancashire, were killed. If you go the Peron military cemetery, just outside Peron,

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you’ll find 577 young men buried there. 257 of those come from East Lancashire.
They’ve got names like Ainsworth and Barnes. The others, more than half, have
Indian or Pakistani-sounding names., like Mohammed Khan, from the 18th Kings
Own Lancets, or Sheikh Mohammed. These people died together to fight for us.
And that’s why having a multiracial society, and ensuring that race-based politics
has no place in our society, is fundamental for decent British values, which are
held by most people in this country.

DD: Nick Griffin, you said that if Churchill were alive today, his own place would
be in the British National Party. Why did you say that, and why did you hijack his
reputation?

NG: Um, I said that Churchill belonged in the British National Party because no
other party would have him, for what he said on the early days of mass
immigration into this country, for that face that, quote, they’re only coming for
our benefits system. And for the fact that in his younger days he was extremely
critical of the dangers of fundamentalist Islam, in a way that nowadays would be
described as Islamophobic. Er, I believe er that the whole of the effort in the
second world war and the first is designed to preserve British sovereignty,
British freedom – which Jack Straw’s government is now giving away lock, stock
and smoking barrel to the European Union – and to prevent this country being
invaded by foreigners. Finally, my father was in the RAF during the second world
war, while Mr Straw’s father was in prison for refusing to fight Adolf Hitler.

[boos]

DD: Wait a minute, what’s that got to do with the issue? What’s that got to do
with the issue?

NG: Mr Straw was attacking me, and I’ve been relentless attacked and demonized
over the last few days, and the fact is, my father was in the RAF during the
second world war. I’m not a nazi, I never have been.

DD: The man there.

A1: Erm yeah, I’d just like to say to Nick Griffin about the whole issue of Europe
and how you’re against, seem to be against Europe, when 80 percent of our trade
is with the European Union…

DD: Ok, we make come to that later. We’re talking about race issues at the
moment. You sir.

A2: You see, I think its an absolute disgrace that you can’t even take on board
what Jack Straw’s just said. You’re organization has been going for over nine and
a half thousand days, and its only in the past month or so that you’ve actually had
your hands behind your back and been forced to look at accepting people of a
different ethnic and racial background. And for just one minute could you not
think about the benefits that parents, that my parents brought to this country,
and other parents from an Asia, from an Indian, from a Pakistani have brought?

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No. All you’re thinking of doing is trying to, sort of, erm, poison politics [NG
shakes head], yes you are, poison politics, and poison the minds of people in this
country. The vast majority of this audience find what you stand for to be
completely disgusting and reprehensible. Completely disgusting!

[applause]

DD: Do you want to answer that?

NG. Well, without a shadow of a doubt, I’m sure you can appreciate that if you
look at some of the things I’m quoted as having said, in the Daily Mail today and
so on, I’d be a monster. Those are outrageous lies.

DD: Which is the untrue quote that’s been said about you? The holocaust denial
possible?

NG: The vast majority of them, far too many to go into, er but er…

[laughter]

DD: Alright…

CH: Let let me

DD: Denying the holocaust for instance, did you deny the holocaust? Yes you did.

NG: I do not have a conviction for holocaust denial.

DD: But you did deny it? Why are you smiling? It’s not a particularly amusing
issue.

NG: I, I was very critical of the way in which the holocaust was, and is, in fact,
abused, to prevent serious discussion over immigration.

DD: Just, you say you were misquoted. Ethnicity: “I want to see become…”
[applause] Wait wait, please, ethnicity, “I want to see Britain become 99 percent
genetically white, just as she was 11 years before I was born”. On race, right,
mixed marriages: “Its sad when a unique human genome type becomes extinct.”
Islam, we’ll come to it later. You say you’re misquoted. All I’m saying is, I can’t
find the misquotation, and apparently nor can you.

NG: No, a misquotation in the Mail today said I think black people walk like
monkeys. That is an outrageous lie, and I appreciate you being extraordinarily
angry about a statement like that. I never said such a thing, I never said such a
thing.

A2: Its not false statements.

DD: Ok, if we can go round the table, Sayeeda Warsi.

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SW: If I can go back to the question that was asked, I think that any political party
which erm has the values of the BNP, does not share the values of Churchill and
of our armed forces, and therefore its disgusting that they should use those
images. And, er, I think that if I can follow on from what Jack said, er, there were
many many people from different coloured backgrounds, different religions, who
fought alongside British soldiers to fight facism. Er, I have my own my history
own family. Both my paternal and maternal grandfather fought in the second
world war, and at a time when my forefathers were fighting facism, the BNP’s
forefathers were celebrating nazi Hitler as a hero. And I think today, as we talk
about how Churchill is viewed by the BNP, I’d like to refer to one quote, I’m going
to have to have some bleeps in. This is from Mark Collett, who’s the BNP’s
director of publicity [NG: no he’s not], and er he basically said this. Churchill was
an f-ing xxxxxxx who led us into a pointless war with other whites, i.e. the Nazis,
who were standing up for their race. He says things like that about Churchill in
their party and they dare use Churchill’s image in their election leaflets, its
disgusting.

[applause]

DD: Bonnie Greer

BG: Listen, I’m not a politician, I don’t know anything about politics, my
background is culture, and I’m a historian. Nick and I both have undergraduate
degrees in, wait, do you have an undergraduate degree in history?

NG: In law

BG: Right in law. OK the problem with this Churchill thing, is the problem with a
lot of the history of the British people that er Nick Griffin has on his website. You
see Churchill, if you look at the constitution of the BNP (I know its, I know you
have to change it now, which will be interesting) that er, know you can laugh but
if I was a BNP member I’d be scared, um

[laughter, applause]

BG: The thing is, um, Churchill’s mother was an American. Now there is hints in
her side of the family that they were also possibly Mohawk Indian. Now if all of
this was brought together, Mr Churchill couldn’t have actually been a member of
the BNP as it was constituted, that’s the absurdity of the whole thing. And you do
have to ask yourself a question: What kind of so-called political party is based on
an idea of indigenous people? It just doesn’t exist.

[applause]

DD: Ok, I’ll go to you Chris in a moment. The man in the yellow pullover in the
very back row please.

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A3: As I recall, a senior member of the shadow cabinet under Ted Heath was
called Enoch Powell, and his views were almost identical to Mr Griffin. And that
gentleman actually shoed Ted Heath in to Number 10 with those views.

DD: Ok. Chris Huhne?

CH: Well let me answer that directly because I think it’s interesting. What we’re
dealing with here with Nick Griffin and the BNP is a politics which is as old as the
hills. It’s a politics of finding people to blame, to scapegoat, and that’s exactly
what Enoch Powell did in the rivers of blood speech, and I don’t think he’d
recognize this country today. If you think that one in two of all Afro-Caribbean
children under the age of 16 either have a white father or a white mother, that’s
how far this country has changed since Enoch Powell made that speech.
[applause] We had this we had this in the 1930s against the Jews, in the 1960s
against the blacks, and now Nick Griffin’s playing the same only game, hatred and
fear, peddling hatred and fear against a minority that actually has to defend
itself. And I think that’s outrageous, its completely against the traditions of this
country, and I think frankly Churchill would be rolling in his grave. There are
three parties represented on this panel who can say something about Churchill’s
legacy. He was a Liberal for many years, he was a Conservative for many years,
and of course he led a government that was composed of Labour ministers. But
one thing he was never, was actually a facist, and what we have in Nick Griffin –
and I would like his view, see if he’s been misquoted on this because this was
video footage, there’s no evidence of him being misquoted – this is his technique:
“Perhaps one day” – he’s going to try to be very moderate today – “Perhaps one
day, once by being rather more subtle, we’ve got ourselves in a position where
we control the British broadcasting media, then perhaps the British people might
change their minds, and say yes – every last one must go, every single member of
an ethnic minority.” And this is the man who when we’re talking about fighting
fascism, this is the man who said, “Yes, perhaps Adolf went a bit too far.” Now
which “bit too far”, Nick Griffin, did Adolf Hitler go? Was it in gassing the Jews,
was it in bombing British cities, where, where he’s now trying to get votes?

[applause]

DD: Ok, Nick Griffin

NG: That is just another one of those lies

DD: Sorry, which lies?

NG: I’m talking about the one Adolf went a bit too far. I never said such a thing. I
am the most loathed man in Britain in the eyes of British Nazis. There are Nazis
in Britain, and they loathe me because I am the man who has brought the party
from being yes frankly an anti-semetic and racist party, to being now the only
British political party in the clashes between Israel and Gaza stood fullsquare
behind Israel’s right to deal with Hamas terrorists.

2:58

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CH: Well answer this point about the video. Because there is no question of you
being misquoted on that, its on video, and you are saying…

DD: Wait a moment, wait a moment, there’s another point about this video which
I’ve seen, anyone can see it, its on YouTube, and you were there with the
American Friends of the BNP, and you were there with the head of the Klu Klux
Klan [NG: No] David Duke, he’s there in the picture standing beside you. And the
interesting thing to me is [NG shakes head] – its there, its there, I’ve seen it [NG: I
can explain it] – alright, he’s in disguise perhaps [laughter], but this is the key
point and it goes to the heart of the programme tonight and what you’ve been
saying and what Chris Huhne’s been saying about changing the views of the BNP.
What you actually said, which is what he quoted, is that “Perhaps one day the
British people might change their minds”. But if you put that, i.e. getting rid of all
coloured people from Britain, as you sole aim to start with, then you’re going to
getting absolutely nowhere. “So instead of talking about racial purity, we talk
about identity. We use salable words: freedom, identity, democracy, nobody can
come and attack you on those ideas.” But the truth is, what you were saying
there, that’s just the start of the story, and when we’ve won public support, then
we can go to our proper agenda.

CH: Absolutely.

[applause]

NG: I was, I was, I shared a platform with David Duke, who was once a leader of a
Klu Klux Klan organisation, always a totally non-violent one incidentally

[laughter/howls]

[4.25 follow on Twitter @bbcquestiontime]

BG: Nick, Nick, Nick, excuse me, don’t go and talk about the Klu Klux Klan,
because I know…

NG: It’s a vast a vile organization

BG: I can tell you all about Davide Duke, we don’t have time for that

[4.42 text your comments to 83981 normal rates apply digital TV press red
button: ceefax page 155]

NG: But, further to David Duke, he detests where I stand, he regards me as a sell
out. I’ve shared a platform arguing, and when you’re trying to win people over to
a more moderate position [BG is gesturing] you have to go some way to start
with where they come from. That for instance is the way the Labour party and
others ended up with Sinn Fein in government.

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DD: So you were saying these things not because you meant them but as a way of
winning him over? In other words, you wanted to win over a racist to your view,
and you said “we start by being moderate”.

NG: Not to win over him, I’m trying to win over youngsters he’d otherwise lead
astray. But can we reframe this whole question…

DD: But the point about this is why should anybody trust what you say, why
should anybody think its more than a façade?

NG: Why should anybody trust any politician, all of us [gestures along the panel]

JS: Could I just come in here, because we’ve seen in the last week and we’ve seen
this evening, the moment anybody puts an uncomfortable quotation to Mr Griffin
he says it wasn’t like that, I didn’t say that. Well most of us have actually seen
these things on YouTube, I saw Mr Griffin saying this on YouTube [NG nods] – oh
you did say it? – out of his own mouth. Time and again. They’ve even published
their own manual, its called the BNP Language and Concepts Discipline Manual,
er, which starts off Rule 1, “The BNP is not a racist or racial party”. Well no other
party has to say they’re not a racist or racial party. Secondly, just one second,
“Don’t hesitate to repudiate bad aspects of the BNP’s past.” And this, I’ll tell you
what it reminds me of, its reminds me of Dr Strangeglove. This guy is the Dr
Strangelove of British politics.

[laughter, applause]

DD: Ok, I want to go to members of the audience. The person in, the woman in
the second row at the back there, please, yes.

A4: Hello, I’d like to here from Mr Griffin in a little bit more detail about his
policies of repatriation.

DD: We’ll come to that, alright? I promise you it’ll be our next topic. The person
there in the brown pullover on.

A5: Brown? Its green. Er, I wonder what Mr Griffin’s venomous tongue would
like to say about, because he’s said he’s brought the British National Party away
from racism, well why has it taken many years of legal action and the Equalities
Commission to force you to change your entrance policy, from erm only white
members?

DD: Ok. And the woman here on the right.

A6: Erm, I’m interested to know how you define an ethnic minority when its
commonly known that the human race is believed to have started in Africa, so,
essentially, all of us are an ethnic minority. [applause]

DD: The person in the blue shirt, up there, at the back. I’m just taking some
comments here. The person in the blue shirt with spectacles on, yes, you sir.

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A7: Sir Winston Churchill…

DD: No, you’ve got a white shirt, but fire away.

A7: Sir Winston Churchill put everything on the line so that my ancestors
wouldn’t get, y’know, slaughtered in the concentration camps. But here says a
man who says that’s a myth, like a flat world was a myth. How can you say that?

NG: I, can I, answer those three points, very briefly? First of all, I cannot explain
why I used to say those things, I can’t tell you, anymore than I can tell you why
I’ve changed my mind, I can’t tell you the extent to which I’ve changed my mind,
because European law, because European law prevents me… [jeers]

CH: This is rubbish.

JS: There is no law here that stops you explaining yourself.

CH: And we refused a European arrest warrant on precisely this on a holocaust,

from a country that does require holocaust denial to be an offence, and we
refused that.

JS: And as Justice Minister, I can tell you, if you want to explain why you don’t
believe it… go on.

BG: Nick, go on, tell us! You got it!

DD: You have the freedom now to explain it.

NG: But unfortunately the French courts and the German courts …

JS: I’ll sort that out for you as well!

BG: He’s the Justice Minister!

JS: Come on!

DD: I have a question. Have you actually changed your mind, or are you only
saying you’ve changed your mind because the law makes it illegal to be a
holocaust denier?

NG: I, I, I have changed my mind. A lot of its about figures, and one of the key
things, yes, yes, one of the key things that has changed my mind is British radio
intercepts of German transmissions about the brutal mass murder of innocent
Jews on the Eastern front during anti-partisan warfare, which changes the
figures very dramatically.

JS: But that requires some intercepts…

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NG: Can I get back to the other points…

JS: What about Auschwitz? People have seen with their own eyes in Auschwitz.
You didn’t need subsequent radio intercepts to find out people were gassed at
Auschwitz. [applause]

DD: We’re going to move on now, we’re going to move on. We’ve, we’ve, we’ve
spent a lot, twenty minutes on that first question. There are many many other
questions and many issues to be raised, many of them inevitably centred on the
BNP, and I want to take the following one from Tariq Ali, please.

TA: Why is Islam a wicked and vicious faith?

DD: This is a quotation that, er, you [NG] made, twice, I think, about er Islam. It
was wicked and vicious. You confirmed it the other day. You start off: Why is it a
wicked and vicious faith?

NG: Because it treats women as second class citizens. Because it says that women
victims of rape should be stoned to death for adultery. And because it orders its
followers to be harsh to the unbelievers who live near to them and it ordains, as
a religious duty, the murder of Jews, as well as other non-Muslims. That’s in the
Quran, there’s no point shaking your head. There are good points about Islam,
for instance it opposes usery, it wouldn’t have let the banks run riot in the way
that the Labour Party and the Tory Party have done. There are good points, but it
doesn’t fit in with the fundamental values of British society: free speech,
democracy, and equal rights for women.

[quiet applause]

DD: So what’s your policy on Islam?

NG: My policy with Is, my policy with Islam, is a truce with Islam. I’m not the one
with the blood of 800,000 Iraqis on my hands after an illegal war, whereas Jack
Straw is. I’ve never hurt a single Muslim. I believe that the West should stop
trying to de-Islamicise the Middle East, and should leave foreign countries to run
their own affairs. We shouldn’t have gone into Iraq, we must never go into Iran,
despite that’s where the Tories will take us, in due course. We should leave them
alone, but if Muslims are staying in this country it is with the understanding that
this country must remain a fundamentally British and Christian country.

[quiet applause]

DD: Sorry, can you just, can you just explain, if Muslims do stay in this country,
what must they do?

NG: They must acknowledge that Britain always has been and must remain, and
its right that it should always remain, a fundamentally British and Christian
country based on Western democratic values and not on the eternal values of the
Quran.

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DD: Sayeeda Warsi

SW: From that very interesting answer I can’t work out whether he despises
Muslims or he thinks they’re his best friends. Erm, he’s obviously, Mr Griffin’s
obviously a confused man, er, because on the one hand he says he doesn’t believe
in or abide by lots of values that he attributes quite wrongly to Islam. Erm, and
yet it was Mr Griffin who was on the front cover of a magazine along with Colonel
Qadafi, Ayotollah Khomeni and Louis Farakan and himself, calling himself the
new alliance. It was also Mr Griffin who shared a platform with Abu Hamza,
many of you may know him as Captain Hook, most Muslims know him as a nutter
from the East End of London and therefore not even part of the faith of Islam.
And yet Mr Griffin considers him to be a sheikh, i.e. a Muslim scholar, and he
believes that he and Abu Hamza have similar views. Mr Griffin is a thoroughly
deceptive man who comes on here and tries to sell whatever message. He’s no
friend of Islam, he’s here to demonise Islam, just as he demonises Christianity,
because, you know, there is nothing Islamic about the likes of Abu Hamza and
others, who actually preach extremism in the name of that faith. Mr Griffin
preaches extremism in the name of Christianity and brings that faith into
disrepute as well.

[3.20 applause]

A8: I’d like to say to Mr Griffin, travelling is all about education, educating your
mind, understanding things, and I’d like to know how much travelling you’ve
done around the world, because that is one sure way of understanding another
culture or religion. How much travelling have you done Nick?

NG: I’ve been around Europe, to the United States, I went to Libya long before the
members of the Labour government recently and I said to representatives of
Qadafi that before he does anything else he should stop funding the IRA, which
might be why…

JS: You wanted him to fund you instead.

SW: Yes, you did.

DD: The man with the spectacles on over there.

A9: Thank you very much. I won’t attack you Nick, but I’m a a proud to be a
British Bangladeshi Muslim who has stood for parliament before in order to
serve the British public, erm, and I understand the importance of dialogue
between communities. However, I find that you’re refusing, you’re isolating
people like myself, the Muslim community, by refusing to engage positively.
Instead you are misrepresenting er Islam and scaring people about
Islamification. Surely, er, if that is, if you fear, er, Islamic laws or sharia laws,
surely you should be going after the Christian, the indigenous Christian
community, because you’re advocating Christianity. In the last book of the bible,
in Revelations, it does say in two places that when Christ comes back his rule, er,

10
will be like a rod of iron, and nations will be smashed like potted clay. So why
isolate Muslims and not target Christianity?

[applause]

BG: Well everybody, we can all lay out stories out, and talk about how we see
Britain, that we know what Britain is. This doesn’t really matter to Nick, not
really Nick not really. What matters to Nick is his own vision of this country,
which is this little tiny potted bits of history [?????] He starts his history round
about 700AD, er, where is the rest of British history? Where is the Romans?
There’s a reason the Romans aren’t there: because they were a multicultural
society. Anybody could be a Roman citizen, and there were armies here of
Africans, of Asians, and Europeans, and when Rome left, those people were left
behind. Now what happened to them, do you think they hooked up with your
indigenous ice age Britons?

5.51
NG: Well…

DD: I’m going to move on to another point, as I think we’re getting a bit off beam
here (no I’ll come to you Jack in a moment). Just to say before we do, you can
follow this pro…you can follow us on twitter, BBC Question Time. You can text us
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[6.14 bbc.co.uk/questiontime]
Johnny Lyall please

JL: Can the recent success of the BNP be explained by the misguided immigration
policy of the government? [applause]

DD: Jack Straw. Can the recent success of the BNP be explained by the misguided
immigration policy of the government?

JS: I don’t think it can. I just want to… we mentioned Enoch Powell earlier, he
came out as Sayeeda said and Chris did, remarked with this terrible speech about
rivers flowing with much blood, a 1968 speech. 1960 he was Minister of Health,
and he launched a campaign to recruit Afro-Caribbean people from the West
Indies to come to this country to fill vacancies in the National Health Service. I’ve
seen the press notice, he went out there, er, and so it wasn’t a Labour
government that was responsible for …

DD: Yes but you’ve been in power now for nearly 12 years so let’s deal with the
present Jack Straw and not go back to Enoch Powell.

JS: Well no…

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DD: Let’s deal with the question. Is the rise of the BNP, which has happened very
recently, is that because of your government’s policies? That’s what Johnny Lyall
is asking so can you answer that?

JS: The BNP is a transmogrification from the National Front, the National Party,
the British Union of Fascists before this. As, er, as Chris has been pointing out,
we’ve long had fringe parties in British politics defining themselves against the
other. Originally it was the Jews, then it was against the Irish, then it was against
the Afro-Caribbeans, now it happens to be against the Muslims. As far as
immigration’s concerned, my point is, that we’ve had a long history of
immigration into this country. I scarcely know anybody, certainly, I’m not one of
them, who can say they are true British or true English, because we’ve all got all
kinds of mixtures inside myself…

DD: Are you saying there’s no worry about immigration in this country, is that
the point you’re making? I can’t make out what you’re saying.

JS: Of course there is a worry, but I also say to you, and the latest figures show,
there’s been a net reduction in the increase in immigration to this country. The
outflow because of the downturn has been greater, and so, we are seeking
actively to control the numbers better. So for instance we’ve introduced the
points based system for work permits, and asylum numbers have come down
about a third from where they were. But on the issue of whether we can pull up
the drawbridge and stop people coming into this country, can we stop people
who come from a different country who then are British citizens from marrying
who they wish to choose from wherever it is in the world – certainly not. Er,
because, one of the great strengths of this country is its diversity, and for the
future – and of course I understand this, I understand it very acutely in my own
constituency, where now 30 percent of the population are of Asian origin – that it
can be very disturbing to people when they see change in front of their eyes, and
we are dealing with that…

DD: Sorry, can I try just one more time, Jack Straw, Jack Straw, can I just try one
more time to either answer the question no or yes [JS: I answered the question
at the start], that the rise of the BNP, and the reason that Mr Griffin is on this
panel tonight is because of their success in the European parliament as you well
know, and they got two seats in Europe, is that because of failings by your
government over the last 12 years to reassure people about the scale of
immigration, or not?

JS: I don’t believe it is, if you want to know why – and I said this right at the
beginning David – if you want to know why the BNP won in the North West and
in Yorkshire in June is a lot to do with discontent with all the political parties,
particularly over the issue of expenses.

SW: Jack, I think there are certain things that mainstream political parties need
to be honest about, and I think that answer is not an honest answer [applause].
There are a whole series

12
SW: There are a whole series of issues which are affecting people who vote for
the British National Party. I come from Dewsbury where at the last election we
had the largest BNP vote of anywhere in the country. I campaigned and I
canvassed and I met many many people who voted for the BNP. And there are
real issues around poverty, around deprivation, around lack of social mobility,
and immigration. It is an issue. There are many people who feel the pace of
change in their communities has been too bad, er, has been too fast, and that the
government has not properly resourced those particular areas to respond to that
change. Now we can do one of two things. I’m not prepared to have the debate as
the BNP would like to have the debate on immigration, which is all about black
and brown people. This is not a race debate. This is a debate about resources,
and the mainstream political parties have a responsibility to take on this debate,
to actually tackle the issues, the underlying issues that are making some people
vote for the BNP. Because I’ve said this before, and I’ll say it again. What the BNP
are, they’re activists and their members, I don’t think there’s any doubt about it,
Mr Griffin has proved that by his evasive answers today. But there are many
many people out there who vote for the British National Party who are not racist.
There is lots of statistical evidence to prove that. And therefore what we have to
do is go out and say to those people, as mainstream political parties, is we are
prepared to listen, we are prepared to deal with this, and you do not have to turn
to a racist, fascist party who have there own agenda to deliver the solution to, er,
on your concerns.

DD: But what are you [applause], what precisely are you prepared to do?

SW: Well there are a number of things that we have to do. First of all I don’t think
the people of this country say we don’t want black of brown people, what they
say is, we need a cap on the number of people who are coming here. We need to
know year by year how many people are going to be coming, we need to know
year by year how many people are leaving, we need to know that those people
who should not be here are removed properly, we need to know, we need to, we
need…

DD: Who’s saying “do it”?

A3: Just do it! You just lost 40,000 people in the system! Where are they?

SW: Sir I would say to you, I would say to you the Conservative Party policy is
very very clear. We would have an annual cap, we would have an annual limit.
We would look every year, we would speak to industry, we would look at our
resources, we would look at our needs. [JS: That’s exactly what we’re doing]. But
what we would not do, what we would not do, hold on a minute what we would
not do is pull up the drawbridge, because Britain should have the brightest and
the best from around the world and we should welcome them because they make
a contribution to our society. [applause]

DD: The man over there who, I want to come to you, the man over there with the
moustache, then I’ll come to you with the striped tie.

13
A9: Wasn’t it the Conservative Party who joined the EU, who’s landed us with all
the migrants from other countries coming in at the moment? It was the
Conservatives’ doing, not the Labour’s doing, wasn’t?

DD: So the European Union immigration’s what worries you sir. And you sir at
the front here, the gentleman here.

A10: I agree more with the lady on the panel, I’m sorry I’ve forgotten your…

DD: Sayeeda Warsi]

A10: Er

DD: Well there are two ladies, Bonnie Greer and this lady here.

A10: I remember Bonnie’s name. But I think the problem is, Labour has failed
with immigration. People are disgruntled about that. There are all these reports
that you read, things you see in your own communities, and an easy way to vent
your anger is a cross in the box for the BNP. And a lot of the people that did vote
for the BNP did it I imagine out of anger and a feeling of “what else can I do”, and
they’re not racist people I imagine, so…

DD: Nick Griffin is nodding, saying people voted for him not because they
pursued his policies but because they were frustrated with…

A10: Sorry Nick but [NG: In some cases yes] I would imagine that’s the case, and I
welcome the Conservative Party’s policies on this.

DD: Hold on a moment, let’s just here some more points. The person in purple
there, in the middle.

03:48

A11: I would, I would say that er, I would answer no personally to the question.
The reason being that everyone really here knows that Nick Griffin’s mission is
to give the BNP more credibility and pull this, sort of, veneer of respectability on
top of the party. So he’s going to he’s going to wrap his slimey arms around any
bandwagon going to give him a bit more credibility and make everybody nod
their heads even if its, sort of, hollow.

DD: And the person in the middle, the one in the middle there, yes.

A12: Thank you, er, I agree with everything that Baroness, erm, Warsi said, but
also as well I think the public, erm, who are voting for the BNP do need to be
educated about what Nick stands for. He’s basically a wolf in sheep’s clothing as
he’s demonstrated this evening. How does someone who’s non-racist and all
these lies he’s been saying that’s been said about him, end up going to the Hitler,
what were you celebrating his birthday or something not too long ago? [NG

14
shakes head] And also as well, going back to what Baroness what the Baroness
said, the parties must listen, because one of the things, I’m sitting here and every
time Jack Straw or somebody says Afro-Caribbean, I’m cringing. [JS: Sorry]
African-Caribbean. [light applause]

DD: Hold on, ok, no don’t yet. Chris Huhne.

CH: Well, let me come back to the question, has immigration, have the failure of
immigration policy, helped the BNP? I think there have been undoubted failures
of immigration policy. I think there’s been some really shambolic delivery of
immigration policy over the last few years, for example our border control,
which was a process begun by the way by the Conservative government,
continued by Labour, our border control no longer is able to count people out.
We issue nearly two million visas every year to students and other people,
people on short term visas, and we don’t know whether they’ve left. Its
absolutely unbelievable. And the first thing we need to do is to make sure we get
back control over, er, over our borders. And the other thing, I think the
government made a frankly unbelievable mistake in its projections of what was
going to happen when … we are one of very few European countries who decided
we were going allow everybody from the new Central and East European
member states in. The government projected it would be 56,000 people would
come here, it ended up being 766,000. That is probably – I’m a bit of a
connoisseur of bad government forecasts – but that was probably one of the
worst government forecasts on record.

DD: And had they, no hang on, wait, wait, had they know that would be the figure,
what could they have done to change it? We’re part of the European Union which
you support, you

06: 30

CH: No, no, no, that’s absolutely wrong David. What happened was most other
European countries decided to have transitional arrangements whereby they
didn’t allow immigration, free immigration from Central and Eastern Europe
[DD: For how long?] for ten years. But the point is that that if a Denmark, Ireland
and the UK, er we decided we wanted to go ahead and open our borders
immediately. Well obviously if we couldn’t go, well on the basis of the
government forecasts which were entirely wrong. Now let me come back to the
final, the final point.

DD: Not let’s deal with, Jack Straw says you wanted this to happen.

CH: We we looked, we looked…

DD: But you voted for…

CH: No I didn’t, I wasn’t in the parliament. We looked at this forecast on the

assumption that the government’s forecast was correct. It was unbelievably
inaccurate.

15
SW: But but the Conservatives Par…The Conservative Party was the only one to

DD: Hold on, let’s not go any further down the European road, ok no

CH: There’s a rather important point here about the success of the BNP, because
the evidence on the success of the BNP is very simple. Its not primarily about
immigration, its about people feeling disconnected from the political system and
we’re the only party in Burnley who’s been able to halve BNP support over the
last four years, we’re actually now running the council, and we’ve done that by
listening to people, and the problem’s frankly there aren’t enough Liberal
Democrats out there doing what we did in Burnley to turn back the BNP, because
we’re the only party who’ve [????] them.

DD: Ok, ok ok ok. [applause] Nick Griffin.

NG: I think its ra… I think its rather surprising to have a Lib Dem masquerading
as an anti-immigration party, but Jack Straw was actually right on this when he
said that no its not the Labour Party’s fault, it’s the fault of the entire political
elite, which has imposed an enormous multicultural programme, experiment, on
the British people, without so much as a bye or leave, all we’ve got out of it is tax
bills, its transformed our country to the extent that the government’s own
figures, interpreted by the demographers…

BG: Nick who are the British people? Who are you talking about?

NG: Can I finish and then come back to that?

BG: Yeah yeah I’d like to know.

NG: Ok. The government’s own figures, according to demographers at Oxford

University, show that the indigenous British, the people who’ve been here…

JS: The whites, the whites?

NG: Skin colour’s irrelevant, Jack.

[Booing]

JS: What do you mean by indigenous? You mean white!

NG: This gets to the very point.

BG: Wait may I ask you a question because you…

CH: Why are you against mixed marriage if skin colour’s irrelevant? Why are you
against mixed marriage?

DD: Wait wait. If you all attack on different fronts we’ll get nowhere.

16
NG: Yes.

DD: Just finish what you were saying please.

NG: We’ve reached the absolute limit on numbers. No one here – Jack Straw
wouldn’t dare go to New Zealand and go to a Mauri, “what do you mean
indigenous?” He wouldn’t dare go to America, go to an American red Indian, a
Sioux or whatever, “what do you mean indigenous? We’re all the same.” The
indigenous people of these islands are the English, the Scots, the Irish and the
Welsh.

JS: The whites.

NG: The colour is irrelevant. People who have been here overwhelmingly for the
last 17,000 years. We are the aborigines here. That’s … I’m sorry if you laugh, if
you want to look at the scientific evidence, online or whatever, read read the
books by various scientists, the simple fact is the majority of British people are
descended from people who’ve lived here since time immemorial. [audience
shouting!] It is extraordinarily racist, its extremely racist when you seek to deny
the English. You people [jabs finger at Straw] wouldn’t even let us have our name
on the census form. That is racism, and that’s why people are voting British
National Party, because we feel shut out in our own country. There have .. guided
tours of the Lake District have been cancelled because only English people, white
people, were going on them. Erm

[panel all shout over him, shambles]

NG: ????? groups turned down 106 recruits because they were white.

DD: Listen, let’s get back to the question…

CH: This is another made up fact…

DD: the question, the question, all right made up facts, the question was about
immigration policy. Can the success of the BNP be explained by the misguided
immigration policy which the, the immigration policy which you call the greatest
act of genocide against the British people in history, according to your website.

NG: [nods, looking down]

DD: “The immigration invasion. An act of deliberate, calculated genocide against

our ancient race and nation.” So successive governments are committing
genocide against their own people – is that your theory?

NG: I’m afraid that’s the case. That’s certainly how it looks. From the ordinary
grassroots position, when all the political elites celebrate all the multicultural
diversity and an ever open door…

17
SW: Do you know the definition of genocide?

NG: Yes I do, and its about, its about destroying … the United Nations definition
says its about destroying a nation by …

SW: How appalling that you use the word in that way.

NG: not allowing children to learn about their own culture.

SW: How appalling Mr Griffin that you use the word in that way.

[applause]

DD: Right, Bonnie Greer, Bonnie Greer, Bonnie Greer

BG: Right, the term indigenous. First of all, there was an ice age here. There were
no people here in the ice age, because they couldn’t live in the ice.

DD: Let’s not go too far, Bonnie let’s not go too far back.

BG: Hang on, no, no! This is the point…

DD: We’ll be here all night if we start at the ice age.

BG: No, David, no. Nick Griffin calls his party for indigenous ice age – am I wrong?

NG: The people, largely descended, the people who came when the ice had
melted.

BG: Ok, when the ice melted, 17,000 years ago, people came up from the south
didn’t they? They couldn’t have come from the north. Where would they have
come from? The south. And you know this because you have a 2:2 in history. All
of us [applause], all of us, all of us are descended from Africa. You wouldn’t
disagree with me on that would you? Ok, now the only, the only people who were
here on this continent, and I’ve got a lot of books in fact I brought a lot of stuff for
you to read Nick because you need it, the, the, the only people who were here –
and I call them people – were the andodols, those were the only people who
were on the European continent. Now if you don’t believe that you can come to
the British Museum, we’ve got lots and lots of information for you. Because I
really wish you would come, because the history you’ve got on your website is a
joke.

[2.28 follow on Twitter @bbcquestiontime]

Its wacky, and anybody, anybody who is seriously upset by it…?

DD: You in the white shirt there. Oh no, you’ve spoken already. No no, you
haven’t. Speak up then.

18
[2.42 text your comments to 83981 normal rates apply digital TV press red
button: ceefax page 155]

A12: This is a question to er Dick Griffin, oh er beg your pardon Nick.

[laughter]

DD: No, no, he’s made a mistake

A12: You’re committed to reversing, erm, you’re committed to stemming the

flow and reversing the flow of immigration into the UK so we revert back to a
white Britain. Where do you want me to go? This is my country, I love this
country [03:01 bbc.co.uk/questiontime], I’m part of this country. You know
what? I was born here, I was educated here. You would be surprising how many
people here, we could have a whip round to get you a ticket and your supporters
to go…

[wild applause]

… to go to the south pole. It’s a colourless landscape, you’ll find.

DD: You want to answer him?

NG: Yes, thank you. Erm yeah. Our immigration policy is I think supported by 84
percent of the British people at present who, according to a very recent opinion
poll, said they were worried about immigration.

BG: Which opinion poll Nick? Well there you go.

NG: It was in the papers only the other day. And this included two thirds of
settled ethnic minorities in this country, also saying immigration’s out of control,
its time to shut the door. I look … our policy is that …

DD: What he said was, where do you want me to go, was his question.

NG: I’m very happy for you to stay here. What we’ve said is its time to shut the
door because this country is overcrowded, that criminals, bogus asylum seekers
and people who aren’t loyal to this country should be deported, and everyone
else can stay.

SW: There’s no such thing as, there’s no such thing as a bogus asylum seeker. You
are an asylum seeker, you are an asylum seeker, that’s a legal term.

A13: I’m amazed that you still pander to the left. Immigration is a major issue in
this country. Its because of your policies, in this regard, that the BNP have risen.
Do you knot accept that the government has an issue about this, and has to tackle
it square on?

04.38

19
JS: Well, what I’ll accept, sir is this. Of course this is an issue which is exploited on
the far right, and given the constituency that I’ve represented now for 30 years,
of course I’d understand that, but what … I’m not going to go around and say, and
I hope you’re not either, is to say that, suddenly – I come from immigrant stock,
you may or may not, I’m third generation Jewish émigrés on my mother’s side –
because you’ve got to have a fair, I’m very happy to have a fair and open debate
about this, but as Sayeeda said, and she was agreeing with me, we don’t want to
pull up the drawbridge. We are … I accept entirely people’s concerns about the
pace of change, and I’ve seen that in my own constituency. What we have to try
to do with that is ensure there are the resources put in places. I also understand
the degree to which various myths about immigrants are perpetrated by people
on the far right. If you go round and talk to people …

SW: But Jack the system…

A13: But you won’t tackle it. They fill the gap, they fill the gap you’ve left behind
because of a simple policy.

DD: Let me, Jack Straw, Jack Straw, let me just put to you a quote from your own
Labour Frank Field, a much respected speaker on this issue, who in today’s Daily
Telegraph said, “a fightback against today’s BNP will only begin when our party
leaders pledge that our population will not breach the 65 million barrier”, 70
million being predicted. Do you support that idea?

JS: No I do not.

DD: And why not?

JS: I’ll tell you why, because Frank is a good friend of mine, and an old friend of
mine, but I don’t happen to believe that putting a cap on population is possible.
Why isn’t it possible? Because then you also have to put a cap on the number of
children people have. You also have to decide you’re going to have to be very
very authoritarian: you can come into this country. What we have done sir, and
we have responded to the concerns very significantly, for example by tightening
border controls, by producing kind of checks on people going out as well people
coming in.

DD: But no caps is what you’re saying?

JS: And and and what we’ve also done is introduce the Australian points-based
system for work er work visas.

SW: But Jack none of these systems are working. That gentleman is right.

JS: I’m very sorry, they, these systems are working, and what [SW: they’re not]
for example they’re doing with respect to work permits and I’ve seen that with
my own constituents, is that getting a work permit is now much more difficult,

20
and we can adjust, as Chris was saying, the numbers each year by changing the
points , so the system is working.

SW: Jack until we start having an honest debate…

JS: We’re having an honest debate.

SW: You have to start having an honest debate, you’re in denial, and that
gentleman is right.

DD: Alright, Nick Nick Nick Griffin, he says it is working. Do you think its
working?

NG: Er, I don’t think its working. We see with your own eyes what’s going on in
towns and cities all over Britain, the place is changing at a huge rate, and the
ordinary public simply do not want it. Its time the elite learnt that.

DD: Ok, the man with the blue tie, in the pale blue tie there, in the blue suit, yes
sir.

A14: Yes why do we let in thousands of immigrants into this country when we
have rising unemployment?

DD: Why what?

A14: Because, why do we let in [huge applause] … We have rising unemployment

in this country?

A15: I work with migrants, refugees, er, Nick Griffin should probably visit my
workplace. I have a student who was a qualified doctor in her country, and she
worked proudly as a cleaner in this country. I have other students attempting to
learn English so that they can contribute positively in this country, and are
taking on jobs that some English people, according to Mr Griffin’s definition of
English, are unwilling to take, some foreigners unwilling to take.

DD: Ok, I’m going to move on now because er believe it or not we’ve only got
under ten minutes left and I didn’t want this whole programme to be about the
BNP. Shalina Nuelavera please.

SN: Should the Daily Mail have published the Jan Moir article on Stephen Gately?

DD: Should the Daily Mail have published the Jan Moir article on Stephen Gately?
The Boyzone band member who died suddenly, and the Daily Mail Jan Moir
published an article, a great number of people, I think over 22,000, to complain
about it. Bonnie Greer.

BG: One of the qualities of democracy and the most important, maybe, is that we
have freedom of speech and freedom of expression. If we don’t have it, we’re
doomed. I didn’t like the article. I thought it was nasty, I thought it was cruel, I

21
thought it was inaccurate. I don’t know where this woman was coming from
when she wrote it and I despised it. But she had the right to write it, and the
newspaper had the right to print it. That’s called democracy, it ain’t pretty, but
it’s the least evil we human beings can make.

DD: Chris Huhne? [applause]

CH. Well like like, like Bonnie I entirely defend the right of Jan Moir to write what
she wrote and the right of the Daily Mail to print it. But I don’t, didn’t approve of
it, I thought that she was quite wrong, and I thought that she was quite wrong
because to say that someone has “brought on themselves” – which is effectively
what she was saying – er a sleazy lifestyle, and er as a result of that has died. I
thought that was frankly in extremely bad taste, she didn’t know what was act…
what was happening at the time, it was intruding and speculating on all sorts of
things er which she cannot possibly have had any knowledge of, and what she
was essentially doing what giving vent to the most crude type of homophobic
prejudice, and I don’t think there’s any place in a civilized society for that. It’s a
very similar prejudice to the sort of prejudice that we’ve previously been talking
about er against er ethnic minorities. Because what we have to remember is that
all of us sometimes find ourselves in a minority. All of us. It may be people on the
right defending Countryside Alliance marches against erm er, against fox er
against banning fox hunting for example, it may be people on the left. All of us
find ourselves in a minority, and we need to respect each other’s rights, and that
was an article which did not respect the gay community, and really undermined I
think their civil rights and was a very very retrograde step.

[applause]

DD: One of the things she wrote was that Gately’s death was a blow to the “happy
ever after myth of civil partnerships”. Sayeeda Warsi, you’ve written about the
promotion of homosexuality undermining family life, so presumably therefore
you’re against the teaching of homosexuality in school, you were against the
scrapping of Section 28. What’s your view about this issue, and are you in favour
of civil partnerships?

SW: No, no, I mean if I can go back to the question er which was asked…

DD: Should it have been published, yes, we’ve got a bit beyond that now…

SW: Well I actually think that newspapers do have the right to publish articles,
but I also regularly say that journalists and newspapers sometimes have a
responsibility not to, and I think that journalists need to taker er that
responsibility quite seriously. And one of the ways that I was brought up erm as
as as a young person was that er when somebody dies we say that er that they
are hopefully resting in peace, and therefore once they have gone from this
world, to take their name in vain and so say the things that were said in that
article is not acceptable.

22
DD: Do you support that part of it that talks about the blow to happy ever after
myth of civil partnership?

SW: Er no I don’t, I think the whole article was very distasteful…

DD: You’re in favour of civil partnerships?

SW: I I think people who want to be in a relationship together, in the form of a

civil partnership, absolutely have the right to do that.

DD: Ok, Nick Griffin?

NG: Erm, I’m against the teaching of homosexuality to primary school children.
I’m against the teaching of any sex to primary school children, I think that’s
wrong. But, I believe the freedom of the press, as Bonnie said, is the absolute
foundation stone of our democracy, so the Mail can publish what they want, but I
also believe that in the case of someone like Stephen Gately who died, it is better
to abide by the maxim, “the dead said nothing unless good”, and I think it was
wrong.

DD: Ok, was was what she said about the – “under the carapace of glittering
hedonistic celebrity the ooze of a very different and more dangerous lifestyle has
seeped out for all to see” – isn’t that rather in line with your view, that people
find homosexuals, creatures, repulsive, you said, about homosexuals?

NG: I’ve said, a lot of people find the sight of two grown men kissing in public
really creepy. I understand that homosexuals don’t understand that, but that’s
how a lot of us feel. A lot of Christians feel that way, Muslims, all sorts of people,
[boos from crowd] I don’t know why, that’s just the way it is. And we, we
[rubbish!], I took a party [rubbish! You’re a disgrace!] I took a party that ten
years ago which said homosexuality should be outlawed, people should be
driven underground and persecuted. The British National Party policy now is
what people do in the privacy of their own homes is absolutely up them, and the
state has no right to interfere. But nor do militant homosexuals, not all of them,
do militant homosexuals have the right to preach homosexuality to
schoolchildren. That is perverse [shouting from audience].

DD: Ok, you sir, yes?

A15: Do you reckon the head of the Christian sect here in Britain agrees with
your views? [American accent]

NG: There is no particular head of a Christian sect.

DD: Jack Straw.

JS: While the Daily Mail and other papers are free to publish within the law, and
they were entitled to publish this, I think it was odious, it fans homophobia, and
my belief is we’re only going to have a decent society if we respect people’s

23
differences. That’s the truth of it, and to suggest er, poor Stephen Gately’s death
suggested civil partnerships should be abandoned, are now, as it were, to be
abandoned, is as ludicrous as suggesting that because some marriages end in
difficult divorce, there’s something fundamentally wrong with the er institution
of marriage. Of course that is utter nonsense, and I celebrate the fact that civil
partnerships have been introduced, and that people who are gay and lesbian are
able to honour their relationship in public through a ceremony. Why not? I think
that’s really good. [applause]

5.25

DD: Ok, I’ll take one point from the person, the person at the very back there,
alright, yes. Quick point if you would.

A16: Hello, as a person in a civil partnership, and a homosexual, I can tell you Mr
Griffin that the feeling is mutual.

[laughter, applause]

A16: And in respect of that, and the fact the Daily Mail published it, I take a great
deal of comfort that is was so widely reviled, and good on the Daily Mail for
publishing it because it has shown that the British public aren’t in favour. Mr
Griffin you’re in a very small minority.

DD: Ok, [applause] we’re er, we are coming to the end of the programme, we’ve
only got a few minutes left. I want to go back to this programme itself, and
whether this programme was the right programme for Question Time to put on,
with a question from Pat Conarghty please, Pat Conarghty.

PC: Might this programme be viewed as an early Christmas present for the BNP?

DD: Can this programme be viewed as an early Christmas present for the BNP?
The words of Peter Hain, the Welsh Secretary, who attacked us consistently for
having Mr Griffin on the panel. Has it been a Christmas present for the BNP? I
suspect its for the audience to decide, but Chris Huhne you start on this.

CH: Well clearly, er, it is. It is a Christmas present for the BNP. But, I think that
when a party gets to a certain stage in our democracy and elects people at
national level as the BNP has done –and we have precedents for this from the UK
Independence Party and the Green Party – I don’t want the BBC and our
broadcasters to decide who should be allowed to say something and who
shouldn’t. I think it has to be respected.

DD: Ok. Bonnie Greer? Bonnie Greer?

BG: My dear great mother in law, er, who I was the first black person she ever
met, my late father was the second black person she ever met. This woman was a
true Brit, total common sense. Please don’t tell me looking at a television show

24
would have her take this man’s party to her bosom. The British people have got
too much common sense.

[applause]

DD: Ok. Sayeeda Warsi.

SW: I don’t think I can put it any better than er Bonnie, but I don’t this has been a
Christmas present. I think if you look at the reaction of this audience, and you
look out there in the British public they’re absolutely appalled by the values of
Mr Griffin. But in a way, I’m glad that this programme has taken place, because
actually Mr Griffin hasn’t been able to put forward his normal PR version of who
he is, but he’s been exposed for what he really is.

[applause]

DD: Ok, over there.

A17: Isn’t it alarming though that it took the BBC to invite Mr Griffin onto TV for
the likes of Peter Hain to come forward and say his party is not lawful, when he
was running for parliament back in June?

DD: Nick, Nick Griffin, do you regard this as an early Christmas present? I saw
you saying “thank you auntie” for being invited on Question Time.

NG: Er, actually that’s another word put into my mouth by journalists. I didn’t say
“thank you auntie”, I don’t regard the BBC as auntie, I regard the BBC as overall,
as part of a thoroughly unpleasant ultra-establishment, er, which as we’ve seen
here tonight doesn’t even want the English to be recognized as an existing
people. I think its wrong. But, but…

BG: You never answered the question.

NG: But the BBC, all they’ve in the end done, as Chris said really, all the BBC has
done is followed the rules that they set some years ago. We’ve crossed the
threshold. It would have been wrong to keep us off any longer. So the BBC has
just done what they had to do, and er I’m sure its been a large audience, possibly
of interest to some people, so what’s the problem?

DD: Jack Straw?

JS: I think this has actually been a catastrophic week for the BNP. [applause] And,
because, for the first [rubbish!] for the first time the views of the BNP have been
properly scrutinized. People are going onto YouTube, going onto the web, finding
out the true views of the BNP, and its, what we see here is a fantasizing
conspiracy theorist, a man who defines his politics by race rather than by moral
values, and the British people will have nothing to do with that. Now,
particularly, they know about it.

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[light applause]

DD: ok, so, I’m sorry to those of you trying to get in, I’ve got to stop because our
time is up, it’s the end of our hour of Question Time this week. So, next week,
Llandidno, on the panel Jacqui Smith, the former Home Secretary, and the
broadcaster and [tape cuts]

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