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BORD BIA SESSION 3 THE ARTISAN AND BRAND IRELAND

John Were here to talk about provenance, premiumisation and employment, can I put those into plane speaking. Provenance is making a reputation from what you do, premiumisation is making money from having a reputation and what you do and employment is making jobs. I had a little tour of a number of micro, the new wave of micro breweries in Ireland just last week, working on a paper and to see both the nascent talent coming through which is so exciting and to see the companies, just to single one out in particular because Ive seen them from the mid 90s when the Carlow brewing company started and to see a company now in a huge new start of the art premises in Bagnelstown exporting to 20 countries is to see what provenance, premiumisation and employment can actually mean to Ireland and to our future. So Im not going to say anymore than that, to introduce the main paper is somebody who genuinely needs no introduction to everybody in this room, everybody knows, thanks to her sterling stoic and hard work over many years now, Una Fitzgibbon from An Bord Bia is going to make the presentation on brand Ireland, so thank you very much. Applause Una Fitzgibbon Thanks John, this is a presentation about an umbrella brand for the Irish food industry, as per the Bord Bia pathways report and adopted more recently and is a recommendation formally in Food Harvest 2020. The presentation aims to outline first of all what we mean by brand and by umbrella brand for Irish food. What an umbrella brand could do for Irish food, the proposed food brand Ireland proposition which is being developed and which is work in progress. A work in progress visual identity for food brand Ireland and the next steps were proposing on this project. The presentation will also provide some insights to stimulate debate between the panel and audience here today, in particular around aspects of the artisans contribution to the brand and the brands contribution to the artisan. So were going to start by defining what we mean by a brand and on purpose the word brand here in the title of this slide is in inverted commas because people have very different interpretations of what the word brand actually means. What we mean by brand is reputation, nothing more and nothing less. An umbrella brand is a collective reputation for everybody, a unified reputation. And this food brand Ireland is a brand that will communicate the collective reputation of the industry. It is not about a device to go on product. A Colas, a companys or a countries reputation is what its know for, what it stands for and what its famous for. In the way that other people perceive it and not how it views itself. The context of nation or country branding is important and the essence of Irelands nation image is something thats very well documented and food does not stand alone on the perception stakes.

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You can see here that food is only one element of the perception stakes in terms of the branding of Ireland as a nation, other aspects include industry and foreign investment, tourism and culture as well as our food. But we know that reputations matter, in fact they matter a lot and reputations can be built on and changed in customers minds for enhanced returns and new sales or added value. For food from Ireland what matters is what customers think of food from Ireland and then how that thinking can be influenced for greater returns. And when we use the word customer we mean that in its broadest sense including consumers, trade customers or business that we sell to and opinion formers such as media. But in order to build reputations for greater return first of all we need to know where the reputation is right now and what others think of us right now. Many of us will have views on how we think we are perceived right not and certainly Pathways told us that Ireland is at an enviable starting point in the race to produce exactly the type of food that a growing number of consumers are demanding. It is universally associated with the colour green and its land evokes natural. And certainly Bord Bias research over the years supports this general perception. So its important also though to understand that firstly the recognition of Ireland globally and particularly in very distant markets may not be high and by inference an awareness of what were known for, what were famous for or what we stand for may also not be significantly high in very distant markets. We know because trade customers have told us that at a trade level across Europe that were green and natural and there is a growing need to continually prove our green credentials. That proof is in evidence, evidence is data recorded over time that proves performance. Food Ireland needs an evidence backed umbrella reputation or brand, a reputation with teeth, a reputation that can prove itself, a reputation that can prove that it is green and natural, a reputation that is not green washing. And so the first step in developing food brand Ireland was extensive customer research to find out and validate what the real perception of Irish food and drink actually is currently and what its potential reputation could be. The research brief was to focus on the emotional brand resonance territory or the upper territory in this slide. And to stretch that territory for areas of credibility and distinction. To say were green from Ireland is highly credible, whether or not its distinctive in the world versus other nations is another question. And so many hours of research was conducted in over 6 countries as well as inter culturally on line to establish exactly where the Irish food reputation is now and to establish where it could potentially go or be stretched to in consumers minds. Materials were developed in the form of visual images and narrative or stories and used in research to explore current and potential territories that food from Ireland could feasibly occupy. Images and words that resonate with food from Ireland were fully explored. The research

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was conducted by Point Blank, an agency with experience in consumer product areas and in sustainability and green brand research. With brand development input from Zero Gs Ciaran OGaora and Noel Tolan brand consultant who is on our panel this afternoon. And here are some very top line distillation of the research results that came through from the research exercise in the 6 countries and inter culturally on line, its not written down and Im going to give it to you verbally. Customers showed strong resonance with Irelands warm convivial, amicable people. With her abounding nature and green fields, untainted pure and free of pollution. They showed a earning for Irelands heart of green, theyre longing for a purity lost in the industrial world. Their desire for the simpler life, their search for respite from the bustle of modern living, a longing of innocence. The building blocks of an Irish food philosophy which speaks to the heart of green emerged well in research. Ireland is or can be renowned for its richness of nature, its pure raw ingredients and its unique island location. And Irelands farming family and tradition lies at the centre of a highly credible heart of green. Fresh, unspoilt, tasteful, down to earth, simple, pure, authentic, artisan, honest, natural, resourceful, wholesome, traditional are all words which had a very high resonance with food from Ireland in research. Yet some of these words if used need to be used with care as for example in the world traditional, we have the dichotomy of simplicity but also old fashioned. There were also some perception issues or what we refer to as gaps which emerged from food from Ireland research, for example there is a perception that Irish weather is cold, wet and uninviting which implied for some perhaps. (laughter). This is important, implied for some a major challenge to Irelands ability to farm food due to what is perceived as adverse climatic conditions. The same climatic conditions causing some to believe that Ireland has a food culture of resorting to heavy foods to weather the tough climate. There is a misunderstanding here as Irelands temperate climate is in fact a unique resource for great natural fertile and fruitful farming conditions. Food culture was generally perceived as lacking, largely due to consumers not having experienced the cuisine of Ireland directly and linked somewhat to this misperception of climate. Another issue was the perception by some of Irish food as close and perhaps no different to British food. But the sense of great discovery or surprise when images and narrative and research conveyed the variety and diversity of food from Ireland as well as an evolving food culture is a potential very strong point for food brand Ireland. And we believe that communications which accentuates the perceived strengths of Irelands food brand reputation while closing the perceived gaps that exist can only make the marketing and sales of Irish food easier and potentially more profitable. The full detailed research results and not the distilled version that Ive just given to you was shared on an inter agency basis with tourism Ireland, Failte Ireland, IDA and Enterprise Ireland to ensure

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compatibility with sister agency brand development. In addition a brand model rooted in this research was developed in consultation with 20 food farms from industry. A brand proposition then and a work in progress visual identity was developed. So from the model and research a full brand proposition was devised and a work in progress visual identity developed and Im going to take you through the brand proposition now. Food brand Ireland is the term given to describe the unique attributes that differentiate food and drink from Ireland as a desirable choice for buyers and consumers around the world, it has been developed by focusing on the needs, beliefs, tastes and perceptions of these customers and matching them with Irelands unique functional and emotional brand strengths. Food brand Ireland represents a shared reputation for food and drink producers in Ireland, people who recognise that provenance distinguishes their products and offers something unique and desirable to international consumers who appreciate pure ingredients and great food and drink. Irelands reputation for remarkable food and drink does not exist in isolation and we have to recognise the participation of other functions such as culture, tourism and sustainability. But it beholds us through this brand to close the gap that exists in the perception stakes from a harsh cold climate to a temperate mild climate. From food producers only which was a major part of this research, where were viewed as very strong producers of elemental ingredients and primary products to discerning lovers of great food. From British to distinctively Irish, from generic to unique, from a narrow range which is the perception and then theres discovery and surprise of diversity. And from a food industry producers only to a food culture. In essence food from Ireland offers the opportunity to discover the remarkable character of pure ingredients and great food and drink. Simply put, place plus culture equals remarkable. Remarkable, the word in terms of its sensibility means an entry point to a conversation. In terms of a visual identity the brief for the visual identity was to develop an identity that could work across all food and drink sectors, i.e an umbrella brand which reflects the personality of food brand Ireland more than an industry, that it is in fact a culture. It should be uniquely Irish and not mistaken for English or British and needs to work graphically across a broad range of media and at different scales. We didnt want to use national emblems because the EU dont like us to, from a state aid rules perspective. So a huge amount of work has gone in to the development of a visual identity. The visual identity developed is one that reflects country of origin and not accreditation or certification. And dont forget that food from Ireland is remarkable.

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The concept of using a map as an identifier was developed, as you can see the model of 100% pure New Zealand uses its map in its percentage mark there. And the map is also used by both Failte Ireland, Tourism Ireland and the IDA in their innovation work. So the identity for food from Ireland was developed initially around the concept of words that represent place, or sense of place in food. It was then evolved into a bubble for conversation but reflecting the words that people say or talk about when it comes to food from Ireland. And eventually then a change in the script or font to be clearer and an evolution to the concept of taste Ireland so that you get a distinctly different font between the bubble conversation font and the font under taste Ireland or just Ireland but always remarkable. Remembering as well that this is work in progress and that it needs sign off and it also needs sensibility testing in various markets. What matters for brands and reputations are not visual identities and thats not to negate in any way the amount of work that has gone into the development of this visual identity to date, but it would be a mistake on our part to obsess over the visual identity when better time is spent obsessing over a vision and a strategy for this brand. Time spent this afternoon having a stimulating conversation around a vision and strategy for this brand would be very worth while. A stimulus for the session, I just want to return for a few moments to Pathways for Growth, as a check in on first principles for strategic clues. If you remember Pathways for Growth said Ireland has an enviable agricultural situation that almost every other country would kill for. It has abundant fertile land, lots of water and miles of coastline. All situated in close proximity to a collection of 400 million affluent people. It is one of Europes largest dairy and beef exporter and home to several world class firms and 100s of artisans. All this comes at a time when the global demand for food is projected to increase by 70% over the next 40 years. A brand is an established reputation with a customer, it is an asset in 3 ways, customers are willing to pay more for a brand compared to an unidentified product, customers are more willing to stick with their favourite brands even in the face of innovative products from competitors and customers are more willing to try innovative products from a favoured brand. In our vision Pathways said Ireland adopts a strategy of developing a world class agriculture industry by 2016, it gears up to deliver on the promise, come see us, were open for inspection. The message to the customer, whether a consumer, retailer or food company is that it has nothing to hide and indeed has a lot to share. A community that has a long history or artisan culture and fine food. If customers, consumers are concerned about how their food is grown and where it is grown, they can come and see. This has the added advantage of being consistent with what the tourism industry wants. The reason for waiting until 2016 is that it is a mistake to make a promise that isnt true. In preparation for living up to the claim of being open for inspection, food and agriculture companies must take to heart the need for sustainability and transparency in food production. The government invests in research to validate the environmental and nutritional benefits of grass fed production as well as in research to define the critical

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consumer aspects of sustainability and to support sustainability improvements such as reducing total greenhouse gas emissions from agriculture and food sectors. Investments are made to ensure that all Irish food is 100% traceable so that a consumer can at least in principle find out where her meal was grown and go see the very farm. This is the brand promise, we are natural and we can prove it. So the building blocks of the brand are developed and rooted in comprehensive research, the strategy is open for development and is likely to involve some crucial elements depending on how far wed like this brand to go and what our aspiration for food brand Ireland is. At its crudest level the brand is about developing the next sale, at its aspirational level however a vision could be greater than this and has the potential to contribute more. Food is one step removed from the jobs piece with the potential to employ more people. Food represents natural qualities of Ireland as a country and is a great source of creativity, innovation and entrepreneurialism. Food from Ireland is green, untainted and fresh and is a good positioner in this sense for Ireland Inc. Food is relevant, important and vital to health and wellness, to sustainability, to visitor experience, to pride of place, to the delivery of a green heart. Food is unique to Ireland and is not just another thing that we make and sell. While a strategy needs to be developed in full for industry buyers, consumers and the Irish public and potential partners can get involved, much will depend on the vision for this brand. Certainly under the principles of the strategic choice of remarkable as the entry point to conversation we see this as a facilitation of numerous stories of remarkability within their own food field, facilitated and empowered by Bord Bia and not a singular story told only by ourselves. The next steps in this project are a brand activation review with industry which will involve consulting 10 firms along the value chain from ingredient to consumer with differing marketing resource levels, with narrow and broad geographic presence to establish their potential touch points for brand activation. Aspects of the visual work seen here will be tested at Anuga, the trade fair in Germany. Bord Bias board will sign off on a broad brand strategy and visual ID, only after which a tag line development and sensibility testing will happen. There will be a series of presentations to industry and to producers and there will also be a brand activation review with potential partners. All working towards a draft implementation plan for the 3 year period 2012 to 2015. And thats my presentation, thank you. Applause John

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Thats great Una, fascinating work, what Im going to ask now ladies and gentlemen would be if our panel will very briefly introduce themselves, who they are and what they do, briefly and then were going to throw, I might ask the first question and then were going to throw it open to the floor for the Q&A. Noel Ive spent a lot of years in marketing and branding, Im basically a consultant, I kind of come at this debate from 3 different perspectives, the first perspective was I spent the weekend in Ballymaloe, so that has completely of course, that forms all my opinions. No seriously I worked in the tourism business, I was heavily involved in tourism brand Ireland which was one of the worlds first nation branding campaigns. And Im currently involved in a number of other countries, including one at the bottom of the pile, a place called Haiti. So if you think weve got issues you should try branding Haiti. Thats one angle, another angle is the whole fast moving consumer goods business, I worked for Proctor and Gamble for many years. The Irish angle on that one was I was head of marketing at Baileys which is probably one of the worlds most successful agricultural products that happens to come from here. And the third angle is I was a director of a company called SSP which is in the food service business and it runs restaurants around the world in transit locations, in something like 600 airports. The interesting bit there is that SSP has to run every kind of restaurant from Michelin Star restaurants right down to McDonalds, Pizza Hut, etc. So that kind of food service angle which is another interesting way to look at this. So thats my perspective. John Thats great Noel, thank you very much indeed. John Mulcahy My name is John Mulcahy from Failte Ireland, Im responsible for whats called trade engagement, visitor and trade engagement but it really means run the tourist offices and organise media visits and I also have a strong active interest in the food area that Failte Ireland is covering as well in that it touches a lot of points around the organisation. So Im here representing Failte Ireland today. John Great John, thank you, Margaret. Margaret Jeffers My name is Margaret Jeffers and I set up a company, a marketing organisation should I say called Good Food Ireland 4 years ago to link agriculture, food and fishermen with the hospitality and tourism sector because I believe by marketing those 2 sectors that are the 2 biggest industries in this country, that we can bring the food of our country to the international visitor. And I, through my work every day Im becoming more and more reassured of that vision and I hope that culinary tours and economic opportunities for food producers and hospital sectors that embrace local food, that there will be an economic spin off for them in the future. And it is early days but through my 4 years of working with that, I feel that we need to have a great understanding between that food

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sector and our hospitality sector. So this is what I hope I will be able to bring today to this whole food tourism initiative and talk that there is opportunity. John Great, Margaret thank you very much, Graham. Graham Roberts My name is Graham Roberts from Connemara smoke house in county Galway and were just a small family producer of traditional smoked salmon. Weve evolved over a number of years, my parents started the business back in 79 and Ive grown up with it. In terms of how weve evolved, we have continued to be a food producer, our main market being directly at smoke house, on line and a few small local shops. But how weve evolved as well, we also now do tours of the smoke house, where we explain to people how we do what we do so that they can get an insight into whats behind the traditional production and sort of a lot of what we go through we would point out it can be loosely applied to all kinds of food production. And I suppose the thing for us thats most important is quality and happy customers and you know without that youve got nothing and I suppose something John touched on earlier, were kind of hitting all parts of what this particular piece is about. weve got 7 people employed which doesnt sound like a huge amount but in a small rural community its quite a lot. All of those people have young families, so the spin off from that is one part of it. The people that we attract in to the area, the tourism side of it, theres a huge uptake on that in terms of people coming to see and learn about what we do, thats another spin off from that. And you know I suppose essentially thats what its all about, is happy customers. One thing thats very, very important and its actually something last night when we arrived here, the welcome that we received here, we felt genuinely wanted and the girls that we chatted to at reception were genuinely interested in our journey arriving here and its something that I feel very strongly about, we all have a responsibility to take pride in what we do and portray that enthusiasm and passion for what we do to everybody that comes through our doors and its something I think thats very, very important and thats me in a nutshell on what we do. John Very good, thanks Graham, Graham is too modest to mean he is of course a Rick Stein food hero now, but he might tell you about that latter. Aoife Caraghy My name is Aoife Caraghy and I have worked in the food industry for over 20 years, initially in restaurants, most of that front of house, very proud of the fact that I was a waiter for 16 years, something that I think is actually very undervalued in this country. So Ive been writing then for about 10 years, 5 of which was full time in food and wine magazine. When I used to tell people that, unlike when I was a waiter and I used to tell people I was a waiter, theyd kind of glaze over, when I told them that I was a food writer theyd say oh do you go to review restaurants and that was a lovely part of my job but actually for me the really exciting part of my job in food and wine was hearing the stories of the artisan producers and the small, the guys who were really creating a new food

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culture, that to me was really exciting and retelling that story. So that was a big part of my job there. Ive been freelance now for the last year and in that time Ive set up a food blog called Holy Mackerel which was just really a tool for me to keep in touch with the business and what's going on. Ive also been involved in setting up a food collective called For Food Sake which hosts food discussion nights and its just about trying to get together industry people, Graham was one of the panellists, several other people here have been other panellists, Una was another one, so people from the industry to talk about different aspects of the industry and open it up to a general consumer as well and weve also included some producers within that. So we bring the producers along, let them showcase their food, its a good incentive to get general punters along if they think theres free food involved, it always kind of bumps up the numbers you know. So thats basically where Im coming from. I suppose the way I would see my role as, in the press is actually a continuation of my role as a waiter which was to be a conduit between the consumer and the creators of the food, whether that be the chefs or the producers of the cheese that Im serving or the person thats created the wine. And one thing that I learned really, really early on which I think is just worth thinking about in terms of this brand Ireland is the importance of a story in our food experience. And I learned very early on how useful a story is in selling food and drink and that you can have all the kind of, the practical technical knowledge say of a wine but actually if you have a little bit of a story about where that wine is from, who made it, a sense of place to give to somebody, thats their hook to remembering their experience of that wine and its the hook to kind of lead them in. So I suppose Im in the business of looking for stories as a journalist, looking for good stories and what's fantastic about artisan producers is that they have very interesting stories to tell. But what's important is that theres a truth behind the story and I suppose its just what Una said, about you know we cant make the mistake to make a promise that isnt true. So I think thats the kind of important thing. John Fantastic Aoife, like a typical journalist now youve pre-empted me because what I wanted to ask Nolan was this, I mean Una came up with a lot of fairly extraordinary language there, you know Ireland equals remarkable, and the green heart, but as Aoife mentions, you know Una said towards the end, the important point is that you dont make a promise that isnt true. So if we go down this path, are we making a promise that is true? Noel Well remarkable, if you think about the idea of remarkable its almost an invitation to consider, were not actually really making a promise, were starting a conversation and I think thats the important thing because remember some of those blocks you saw and its sometimes hard to read that stuff, you know oh Irish food is British food and even the British researcher in that session Aidan remembers said you know and thats about the worst description you can give any food and this is a real issue for us, you know and those of you, especially in the artisan space that have to go out to places like Germany and say Ive got cheese, Im from Ireland, you know its a hard sell. So weve got to work at closing those gaps and you know the other gaps being, you know the island thing, well to most people in Europe if an island is in the north its cold and nasty and of course

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it snows, if an island is in the south its good and its Mediterranean and I can get it. So we have to be very clear about the weather issue, the mild thing is really important that we get that story and we put all of this together in a story as you say or more accurately in a series of stories. You know you think of what the French wine guys have done in terms of terroir and in terms of telling stories about different places. Thats probably the game that were in and we think remarkable is a way to start that. Ill just say one other thing is, you know Ive been at 100s of sessions like this in different countries around the world, around you know identity and marketing and everybody has an opinion about logos etc, the logo is the least important thing here, the most important thing is how we put it all together and how the industry actually works to change the reputation that is out there and that is a long term serious exercise. The marketing, the logo part of it is only a kind of a stitching together if you like. In the end this is about behaviour, behaviour of everybody in the room and the other industry sectors as well, thats really important. John Very good Noel, thank you, I wonder now if we have questions from the floor please can people wait till we have the microphone and then just say your name and where you come from and then ask the question, have we got the roaming mike there. Brid Torrades going to cover the fact that most of our animals are being fed GMO product, sourced product or do we change that. John Might as well start with the hard questions first. (laughter and applause). Ruth Clearly our reputation is for grass fed, pasture fed, clearly the marketing opportunity is for pasture fed particularly. In America now theres huge talk around pasture fed, grass fed. Extensive grass based rearing of animals is something that Ireland is renowned for, whether or not, you know whether or not food is organic, there are organic options from Ireland as well but the majority, I mean wed a have to say that the majority of our beef certainly is grass fed except for maybe winter feed or a certain period of the year. And it would be considered natural in that sense. But at the end of the day that is a consumer issue, I dont know if you want to. Noel Yeah I think its important remember that we dont, unlike a Coca-Cola where theres, you know theres a company, its owned, there are rules, you sell the sticky black stuff and you make a lot of money and you have to do it according to the rules. When it comes to a nation and reputation youre never going to get everybody to actually do exactly the one thing, there are a series of options underneath that. What were concentrating on is what is the reputation that we want to develop abroad and at home and that accommodates exceptions, of course it does. You cant control everything, do you think

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in France for instance they have the one system for anything, even for wine. So again well never get everything right, well never get everybody the same way, nor do we want everybody the same way, we want a reputation for that kind of breadth and remarkability and some of that can actually be debates, that you can funnel all the time and start a conversation, so its ok to have exceptions. And by the way there are certain, you know entities within the industry who will be off brand, who will not want to talk about actually coming from Ireland and thats ok too, we cant control everything but we can influence our reputation. John But if we have a sort of appellation controlee system that allows people to sing the benefits of their own terroir. Noel Exactly. John Then we can have a boarder umbrella with the green heart underneath it rather than a specific set of rules. Noel Yeah and the broader umbrella is that there is diversity, now come and talk to me about the diversity, its kind of a clever way to get around it. John Ok very good, gentleman with his hand raised there. Michael Ewing Michael Ewing from the environmental pillar, my name was called only a couple of times, having put input when I actually didnt speak at all, this time I actually am going to speak. The emphasis on truth, right, we just had a response to a question about GM which was basically a fudge, Id like to ask the same question in relation to incineration, we have an issue in this country of reputation, of clean green agriculture, now if we have incineration going on in rural areas, which is in progress of happening, how can we still say we have clean green. Something like 80% of the people in Europe have already said they dont want to eat GM produce, nobody wants to eat dioxins, so where is the truth in this, thank you. Applause John Ok thank you very much, John Im just wondering just in relation to those feedbacks, I mean were talking about the green heart and issues like that and obviously issues such as dioxins, genetically modified organisms and so on, are germane, do they occur in your field of operation within Failte Ireland, do you get feedback from those, what is peoples position seem to be.

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John Mulcahy I think you do get some feedback but I think in the main people tend to be generalists, you know for tourists and visitors coming here, theyre coming here for a good time and so they want to make the best time they can. And I think for them its relative, its relative to what theyre experiencing in Germany or in France or in other parts of the world. And in that context were ahead of the posse, so if were ahead of the posse then we should take full advantage of that and deliver on the promise. And if were making the promise then its incumbent on all of us to delver on that promise and in terms of food I think theres a certain level, I mean not everybody is into food, theyre not all gastronomes or culinary tourists or gastronomic tourists or even interested in food, maybe they havent been reached, maybe its just food is fuel. But for all of them if the food on the plate at the end of the day doesnt seem to reach some personal magic line then it becomes an issue, lousy food last night, therefore terrible hotel or lousy food in the restaurant, bad service and the whole thing grows. Whereas if it meets a sort of, I hate to use the word, a minimum hygiene factor, a minimum level where yeah that was ok, actually had a great day. So what Im saying is that its relative and really the key bit here is delivering on the promise and for me food where they do it 3 times a day is the key area to do that. If we tick that box everything else will follow in behind. John Very good, lets take the next question from the floor. David Toomey David Toomey from University College Cork, Una great presentation thank you and very ambitious. Just one of the things thats been said already, you know that obviously perception is reality but perception isnt necessarily the truth. How are we going to deal with the issue where so many companies in this country, large and small are importing raw materials and in our companies, by our people, are assembling food and its going out both in Ireland and on the export market in the guise of being Irish, how are we going to cope with that part of the challenge, because I think thats fundamental to the overall ambition that we have. John Does that relate to the green heart Una or to food brand Ireland. Una Fitzgibbon I think it is important to point out that, you will have seen a slide in that presentation which has quality assurance certification underneath this idea of the emotional level, the emotional resonance. And there is work being done there in terms of certification to ensure that the product is authentically Irish and coming from the elemental foods of farms from Ireland which is currently there. Our quality assurance mark is being developed into a sustainability assurance scheme, so this is part of that presentation included trade direction that were getting around sustainability. So the quality assurance mark over time will become an environmental assurance standard and there was mention in talk earlier today, some of the earlier panels about this idea for reward for

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environmental standards, the animal husbandry standards in Ireland are generally of a higher standard than European standards and were renowned for that. So the sustainability mark allows us to commence a journey of sustainable food production which will be important to consumers going forward. It didnt come up very strongly in consumer research at the moment but we know that over time that will be an issue and perhaps some of those environmental issues can be met over time through the sustainability assurance of our food which is going to be fundamental. John Is it up to the producer in those circumstances to put across that story, is that how theyre going to make a point of differentiation. Aoife Caraghy I think that its a very powerful thing for the producer to put across the story and I can think of, well for example I know Bridgette Curtain in the audience here today has really made a point of doing that in the UK, saying were Irish smoked, Irish salmon, that is. John So good they named it twice, Irish smoked, Irish salmon. Aoife Caraghy Yeah but I suppose maybe thats part of deciding what it is that you want to communicate and really kind of making that your core message, that your going to focus on getting out there through the media and so on and that if you as a producer are clear in yourself about what it is you're trying to communicate then the people that are trying to help you in that will be able to pick up on that and your core message will carry through. John Very good, can I just throw, just playing devils advocate here now, for some food producers in the audience hearing the Bord Bia research in Unas paper there, can I ask some people just for their immediate reaction to it, just very quickly, do you feel its something that would be very useful to you, is it something that could be productive in your work, let me as Bridgette Curtain down there now because shes just been mentioned and then we can ask somebody else. Bridgette Curtain Thank you, yeah I mean its essential, but on the point of Irish smoked, Irish organic salmon, we would compete on the market place against French smoked Irish organic salmon or Canadian smoked Irish organic salmon so its very, very important to fully, I came up with this together with a Portman and Mason buyer because I told her about the difficulties of labelling laws and I think its essential that labelling laws and where anything come from, whether its fish or meat or cheese, whatever, its very, very important, its so important for us as producer and its essential I think from the consumers point of view. So double labelling like that, just to ensure and make people understand that its Irish smoked, Irish organic salmon, its essential you know and it just tells the story.

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John Very good, thank you, sorry Raymond, I dont think your a producer, I just want to ask one other producer and then Ill take a question from Raymond ORourke, sorry gentleman over here. John Harrington John Harrington Kush Shellfish, perception I have and Id just like to get the panels view on it, just a bit of background first, we launched the first organic mussel on the market 2 years ago and at the time it was seen as sort of an unusual enough step. And back to this mornings first presentation by Dr. ine Macken, we did what I think the middle agriculture will be trying to do, was we approached the processing sector and asked if they would process for us, we would give them a cheque and we would go and sell. And initially I approached 5 processors and 1 of them said yes and the other 4 said no, who do you think you are. And the other 4 then came back afterwards and said oh well wed like to reconsider and is the contract still open. I think an important point that I see through the presentations this morning, through the 3 presentations is that when you go back to Dr. ines point in the morning, I think its very important because if you come to Ireland on holidays or if you are in Ireland, if you take the adjacent farm to this hotel, the one north, south, east and west around the hotel, theyre outside of this room, theyre outside of this reality and the only way they can get in on this reality is through what Dr. ine was saying this morning, which is if they are brought in to sell Wicklow lamb or Wicklow beef or Wicklow milk or whatever, and if thats available on the table in Wicklow and theres Kerry lamb is available in Kerry and Clare is available in Clare etc and then certain areas will have strengths in areas and it will travel. Because in the first instance when you go to get brand Ireland out into the market place, it is only really through the strength of the cumulative voice of Ireland, its only through if more and more people participate in it and if you think about it, what she said this morning is very correct, you have the multinationals involved, Kerry Group etc, and then you have the artisan and your using 90% of the population, they dont have a voice and that has been because the people who own the stainless steel, the processors in most cases control the marketing, they only do the marketing so youve a very small number of people relatively speaking marketing. And by turning that on its head and that processing sector becoming a service sector to the food industry you fundamentally make a chance and I think that that is what weve done in Kush Shellfish, it seemed to be strange at the start, people said we wouldnt pull it off, we did. And weve got listings in the 4 (inaudible 5.40) multiples, in co-op in Switzerland and (inaudible) in Germany in one year and the result has been because the buyer is meeting the producer, they dont care whether I have stainless steel or not, thats not relevant to them, they want to know do I have a pair of oilskins. John Great, well done. Applause

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John Margaret, your hearing from people travelling around, is this what they want, they want the Wicklow lamp in the Wicklow hotel and the Kerry lamb in the Kerry hotel and so on. Margaret Jeffers Yes absolutely and I agree with that gentleman whole heartedly. In what I do every day, Im not going after the mainstream tourist, Im going after the food lover specifically and though I completely agree that tourism is where it is, exactly as John has said, right now, I think that food needs to look at what the food tourist is going to want in 10 years time. And that is not mainstream and I meet people and the gentleman that mentioned GMO and I know thats just an example, I think we need to look at what food tourists are going to want in 10 years time and it isnt mainstream. And that is my concern and you know when I set up Good Food Ireland, the industry was saying to me you know were way ahead, were pioneering, were not ready and we could be going out with the wrong promise, yes absolutely because were far from a food tourism destination, however there is a great number of people delivering a food tourist product that is 100% compatible for an international food lover coming to this country. And that is what I just want to do and that is why we are selective, we have no choice but be selective and to be able to deliver on our promise as a marketing organisation. So its to look at these people and to learn from these people who are naming the Wicklow lamp on their restaurant menus, who are engaging more and more with food producers and artisans and for artisans to try to get to understand the hospitality sector more so and to tell their story. And this morning it was, farm diversification was all talking about telling a story and you know as an artisan producer I see that every day your core priority is just making your produce and getting it on a shelf and collecting the money. But the story in what I promote every day isnt just your food, its you the person, because were a tourism proposition, so Im continuously telling the story of the people that make or grow or produce that food or indeed the chef that cooks it and thats the story. So dont ever underestimate your story and tell your story to the hospitality person, the chef especially and let him use your story as an economic marketing opportunity for his restaurant and every day were educating on that. and its the lack of understanding between the food sector, agri sector and the hospitality sector is where Im finding every day industries falling down. So the more and more that there is a cohesive join up between our 2 government departments and our agencies to deliver to what I call a food lover or an international food tourist, the more successful well be but I firmly believe that we have to look at a long term vision, not short term and our agri sector is currently driving that. John Very good Margaret, sorry Frank down here at the back and then this gentleman here after that. Frank Shinnick Frank Shinnick Fermoy cheese. I was in south Germany, Bavaria last week and at a Slow Food event, big market, we got invited out there, it was all raw milk producers and we were competing with Swiss, people from Austria, France and we did it on a very low budget, another cheese maker and ourselves and I was amazed, you know the people who

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came to our stand, mainly because they were in Ireland on holidays maybe 20 years ago and they just came to the stand because they were in Ireland on holidays and they saw, you know this is sort of a natural, more natural than they are in Germany for sure, you know cows are out. And the second point is that the television people were there as well and my wife is German so she speaks fluent German and the other woman is Irish, shes milk but shes German Silka Crop, they wanted an interview but they picked me because I had broken German and they wanted a story from an Irish person, that could speak German, mightnt be absolutely top class German but at least I was able to speak on television. And the story they wanted to hear because I threw out a few lines to the guy before the interview, what I would like to say and what they clamped on was our cheese has a much more yellow colour and we found this out last year when we were in Germany as well, a much more yellow colour than German cheese or Austrian cheese or even Swiss cheese because of the carotene and this is the story they latched on to. John And what's the cause of the colour Frank. Frank Shinnick Free range, theyre out on grass and theres more carotene in the grass. John Thats what I was going to say, its the grass. Frank Shinnick Sales rocketed the day after, people came to see the yellow colour cheese, it was amazing you know. John Very good, I think a lot of farmers have cottoned on to this over the last 20 years particularly the specialists in the United States, they dont call themselves farmers any longer or for example beef producers, they call themselves grass farmers because the grass is everything. Dermot Seabre Dermot Seabre here, Im just representing the north east food group, the artisan food group here. Id just like to say a word on what Margaret Jeffers was talking about there and I cant emphasise enough what I believe in how food artisans can actually develop their own provenance and one of those is actually through food trails, weve set one up, or should I say Ive set one up there, its been going for a few years but more in an educational trail. The full circle of how its actually come around, Ive got now tourists from Canada booked on, tourists from south Africa booked on them, they cant believe what's happening out here in the little region that were from in particular. But how it works, coming on a tour, meeting the actual artisan and the hospitality bit comes in here, its unbelievable, their feedback is usually more about the person that theyre meeting, who is passionate about the salmon that they smoke or they carve, the cheese that they produce or the honey that they produce. And then the feedback that they get after that, I

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just cant emphasise this enough for more trails to happen, for more artisans to get on board if you can, I know hospitality can be a bit difficult in times but the feedback I get is Ive got 2 more clients out of this, Ive got 2 more, maybe it was a chef who was suddenly educated about what's on their doorstep and one of the comments that usually comes out is I cant believe it was on my doorstep and I never knew. John My doorstep, yeah good point. Dermot Seabre Or from the tourist I cant believe. And just to make a last point, Id like everybody to maybe understand how the artisans in the first place produce quality, we never think of that question, how do they actually produce quality, how do our chefs and our parents and our future people, how are they going to understand quality and its about education and its about taste, its about Bord Bia and its about organisations like Euro-toques getting together and actually telling the educators, do you know what, your going to have to use local produce, your going to have to use the artisan, this is what quality is, youve got to taste it, youve got to understand what real taste is. If the future of our artisans and the food is about quality, all educators in every aspect have to use that quality food. John Good point, very good, now just on that point because Graham Roberts is involved in what to me is one of the most interesting things to have happened in terms of food trail, the Western Greenway up in Mayo, Graham you might just tell people just briefly about that and have you seen any impact from it, I know its early days yet. Graham Roberts Its early days yet, but I mean I suppose since we started doing tours and visits and you know theres been a huge uptake on people coming to learn about what we do. And the reaction at the end, slightly different ways but essentially all the same message is wow, we didnt realise, you know we didnt understand thats what's behind it. So I mean from a producers point of view its a fantastic opportunity to actually say look this is us, this is what we do. But also on a wider scale its a fantastic opportunity to be able to create something, like something thats good for an individual business is also good for the locality and the whole community and vice versa. So I suppose in that sense its been a very positive uptake and ongoing, I mean theres continual enquiries, you know can we come and see what you're doing, one of the things, one of the initiatives that weve taken on ourselves as well and something I just mentioned briefly earlier, all of us can do, is just literally into our local schools, primary schools, things like that, just go along and do something active, not talk to the kids because you know as Lorcan said I think, you know 5 minutes its gone over their head but touch and taste and you know get them involved and you know thats where it starts as well because if they get enthusiastic, if kids get enthusiastic about food from a young age, its a great start. And its one of the things that would be really high on my list of priorities is getting that message across to people. Again Im very lucky in the background that I come from with food, my mother is one of these people who you can open the fridge and theres nothing there and suddenly shes

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got a 4 course meal prepared from sort of left overs and bits and pieces. So Ive grown up in that environment and I have an appreciation for food and you know not wasting anything. So I think its very important that we get those messages across to people as well, you know that food is special, its to be appreciated and you know understand whats behind it. So I suppose those food trails and food tourism if you like is a great way as well to get that message across but also create an economic activity around it as well. So yes its great to be able to get that message across but its also creating employment as well and thats a really good thing. John Have we got almost a point of consensus here, I mean if were using the term remarkable in terms of beginning a conversation and people seem to be agreeing that people telling their story is actually the gold standard of Irish speciality food production, I mean is that, I just wonder does anybody, Ollie down the back there, is that the sort of direction that food brand Ireland needs to be focused on. Ollie Moore (?) Yeah well I suppose, the thing I suppose is maintaining identity for specialist or regional or you know unique products and having an umbrella brand and how is that going to play out because that is very important because on the one hand its going to be difficult to differentiate the small individual artisan producers if you have an umbrella brand. So I suppose maybe if Una could maybe even elaborate a little bit on what the plans are for maintaining identity and at the same time branding Ireland collectively, like what would the identity be of the individual producers and the individual regions as well possibly. John Very good, Raymond I know was going to ask a question earlier on. Raymond I just wanted to allay peoples fears a little bit, Denis and some other people here on origin labelling, there was a proposal that went through the European parliament and the European council very recently so there will be mandatory origin labelling for lamp, chicken, pork, fish in the future, it will be coming out, take about 18 months, 2 years and Ill be working with the Irish MEPs to ensure that theres a definition of substantial transformation, which is the very issue that Denis is talking about. So I think in that context origin labelling is done, its going to, were going to have to do it. So in that sense I think its very pertinent what Una and the brand Irish food is, I think its perfect in the sense that it can bring up all the industry but by promoting very much the top brands and the top people and my one question was in the sense of, you know Ive always been talking about PDOs and PGIs, and Una and Noel, would you see a PDO, PGI story linking in with that, being a perfect example of kind of how to really tell a true story which some people are worried about here. John Very good Raymond, thank you very much.

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Noel. Ollies one first maybe, that sounds far too technical for me to answer, Ollies one, you know you are the artisan group, in a way what we felt, this would be the easiest one to understand if you like, this would be the easiest stakeholder group because what the promise is, is if you like that theres a remarkable series of stories, what you talked about, the trails, what Margaret has talked about, you know the more stories there are the better is the brand proposition. So the brand proposition isnt if you like, you saw that diagram that had, you know the big monolithic message or a series of stories and the proposition actually is that there is a series of stories and that they are remarkable. So its kind of in your hands and like Im the consultant here, unlike these 2 guys who are the state agencies, so I can be very straight with you, youve got an incredible proposition. You just need to do it. Unless somebody has a better idea and if theyve got a better idea you need to do that. But you know dont worry too much about whether its 100% perfect its like we said its all relative. it seems to me youve got an incredible proposition it is a way to close the gap that we talked about, the perception gaps that are there and there are very few places that could probably tell it the way that you could tell it. So I would say you know get on with it, it looks like it could be done. John Good excellent. Sorry your question on? Una Fitzgibbon The question on PDO PGI, there is a commitment under food harvest to develop the PDO PGI area and well be working in partnership with the department of agriculture in that area to see what can be done to elevate the numbers of applications in PDO PGIs which is slightly more challenging in northern part of Europe as we are aware compared to Mediterranean countries with effectively invented the scheme to protect their own brands. But basically PDO PGI is protected products around traditions and we are going to take quite a detailed look at that and see how it can be integrated into this process. John Great Una thank you, Ruth go ahead?

Ruth Certainly the artisans who are here and all around the country have fantastic propositions and if anything theyve been used as the poster campaign for Irish food and been held up as the example for the Irish food industry. So I'm wondering in terms of brand Ireland what is going to fit under this brand and where quality and taste will come in. I'm just putting the question out there could this branding be detrimental to our artisan producers. I mean you take a coffee company for example they sell coffee into various cafes some of them actually have to go in and ask cafes not to use their branding because they make their coffee so badly. If I was a fantastic artisan producer I wouldn't want to be sold under the same brand as a factory farmed chicken or pig. So thats my, I just want to very quickly mention education again and ask if theres a long term vision to sell Ireland on the basis of you know an umbrella brand that is quality based surely education has to

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come into that vision and how are we planning for the future in terms of chefs, food producers and farmers. John Good question yeah Aoife I wonder if you have anything in relation to that? Aoife Well one of the points that just in terms of the umbrella brand from my perspective as a journalist and it kind of links in with the question that Olly raised about how you put forward the specific stories while still having the umbrella brand. if I'm writing for, which I'm currently writing a story thats going to be for an American audience, American readership and they want me to write about the best of foods and for me the exciting thing is the artisan producers. so I'm thinking okay great I'm going to think about, choose producers, smoked salmon producers and so on, the problem I came up against was I needed at the end of that, its one thing to talk about the exciting stuff thats going on but I need to be able to give a call to action. And so for me I contacted all these people and said do you supply on line, actually there was only a handful of them that I'm able to say to that American audience these guys can be ordered on line. Its not coincidence probably that those couple of producers are actually here today as well. Because they are producers that are engaging and they are ready and open for business in that way. but I suppose my point is I'm limited in who I can show case where as if theres a brand that I can actually take examples of and then go if you want to access people like this then this is the brand to look for. So its about the individual stories illustrating what's going on the ground. John Graham do you want to add to that? Graham I was going to say as well just sitting here taking all of this in you might say well what ties all this together, I suppose one of the things is the artisan producer is never going to be a multinational supplier nor does he/she want to be. And the commodity producer is always going to be producing too much just to provide for the food tourism side of things. And so its really, how it all ties together things we were talking about earlier like cows on the road, for me its cows on the beach. Its such a popular photograph in Connemara you know, the cows coming home on the beach, lying down on the sand whatever. And without those images you know thats, that part of the farming is a little bit beyond the artisan producer but without that you know its part of the tourism attraction to the artisan areas potentially. And so there can be a synergy if you like in the sense that what goes on in other areas can attract people to the artisan and some of what the artisan does can attract people to the commodity. And the middle of the road as well. John Could I bring in Noel on that point now I mean the point there does something like this umbrella threaten the image and the authenticity of artisan producers. I know I'm not supposed to have opinions but just before you answer that the Swedes have a simple

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model on this, its a three masted ship. You have to have a jib, you have to have a main sheet and you have to have a spinnaker and the spinnaker is your artisan and the jib is the medium size and the main sail is your large scale industry. You need the three of them to get the boat to go really quick. And they recognised that twenty years ago, its one of the things that in a lot of Nordic countries has driven their agriculture very, very successfully. theres no tension there between the three sails, if any one of the sails isnt working you slow down. So just on that point? Noel Yeah I think thats it really I dont see the threat at all. I see its a choice, remember our whole proposition is a surprising range of so you pick what you want, you might be the average guy thats coming through on a tour or you might be the super gastro guy or the chef, why dont we have the French chef competitions in Connemara. Thinking like that so you that you really get the story out there. Then your own rules frankly work them out, you work out the rules. The marketing isnt going to change the rules. You got to decide what is the reputation that you want to farm and if the reputation is, if thats the logic then go and start proving that and doing it. But that kind of position does accommodate very well, I would have thought it accommodates artisan particularly well because you are the great example of different divergent surprising jewels of food that people need to go and discover. Hence it hits tourism and it hits food almost together and both build on each other. Ruth I just would like to add to what Noel is saying, I think the artisan has a huge opportunity here because this brand will be embraced by tourism as well. So it will raise the profile of our island as a food destination through tourism and also through the purchasing of Irish food. The artisan not the commodity and the big operator, the artisan is the one that has the best opportunity because you are the characters. And when you look at tourism and the breakdown of the tourists coming into this country over half of them are culture seekers, so they want to learn about the country and its people. And you talked this morning all about farm diversification and culture and farm heritage and your third and fourth generation, many of you, so this is your story. I think now if you are not already embracing food tourism in a very small way to start it off and just you know dabble in it and I know many of you out there who are my members are doing it. Its just to start getting into that because it will become an economic benefit for you and Graham and you know and Brigetta and people like you are the forerunners of this and have been doing this for twenty years and doing it successfully and now a fantastic brand like Cashel Blue is opening a cheese dairy, this is incredible but they are recognizing opportunity and I actually believe in my small wisdom that in twenty years time you will be making more money form tourism than you will be selling your artisan produce. John An interesting point there, Ill run another interesting statistic by you from an American academic who has just written a book called Now you see it I cant remember what her name is but she says 65% of the jobs that our children will be doing if they are coming

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towards the end of school in ten years time dont exist at this point in time. 65%, so lets make that true of food. So this gentleman here. Question Thank you John, David Tiernan here from the Tiernan family farm Glebebrehan cheese, I'm just listening to all angles of it here today, we had one group of people talking about the taste and the flavour and weve Bord Bia now talking about the story Una Fitzgibbon there which is fantastic. But I think to really successfully do this they all have to be merged together, one of these isnt going to stand on its own and do the business for us. The next point I would like to make is artisan, I must have heard it about five-thousand times today, you know, and people would probably hold me up as an artisan producer but I'm not an artisan producer, I'm doing what my grandmother did seventy years ago. John That makes you an artisan David. David Tiernan No, not necessarily what I'm doing and what an awful lot of other people are doing here today is we are doing with food is what should be done with it. And not you know, we just get fed up of producing the best quality of food and then handing it over to the multinationals to make a fortune out of it. So lets not forget that, artisan can be an overused word, all I want to do is make a living, you know, the same as other people here. And I think its a combination of everything thats been said here today is whats going to be important. And what happens here today is absolutely useless unless we are back here in twelve months time to show tangible results from what happened here today. Because Ive been, like that gentleman there, Ive been to quite a few of these and you know they can be very self congratulatory really and truly. Youve people looking and all marvellous artisan producers you know I dont feel that way. I just want to make a living out of producing food and getting it as directly to the consumer as is possible. (applause). Sorry, one more point here, there is a general perception out there that what are producing is no good unless somebody adds value to it, take the point of the example now about raw milk. Why are we not allowed or well we are allowed at the moment but I would like to see a full debate on this issue before anybody does anything about it, a full open public debate. Thats all I want to say. John Very good thank you. Just on that point I mean some of the buzz words that Una was presenting there were farming, family and tradition. People looking for a respite from the pressures of modern life and looking for a simpler life that they can access that through a piece of Glebebrehan or a nice glass of raw milk in my opinion. So thats the value of it, you dont have to do anything to it or go for added value, the added value lies in the brand but you are an atypical Irish farmer because youve got a farm with a brand. So the problem for so many farmers is they are commodity farmers without an individual brand and that to me is one of their difficulties. So how are we going to take todays good news and turn it into fame and a modest measure of fortune for everybody. Anybody got any practical suggestions as to how we should move forward from today?

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Question Helen Gees from Gees Gourmet (?) in Abbyleix. Id like to exactly say what David is after saying, we are here, we are saying homemade, handmade, taste, flavour and really and truly without a Leader and Leader funding I would not be here today. Because twelve year ago we got funding from Leader and now Leader cant fund anybody because of food, they cant, and that to me is a huge disadvantage for anybody wanting to get into food because it does cost money no matter how you go about it. And theres another this is as farmers we are basic farmers and my husband is I'm sure cutting corn if it stays fine today and the cereal hasnt come into the play you know talking about dairy and beef and cereal always seems to be put on the hind tit (laughing). It is, its the bad word really because you can import cereals much cheaper than we can produce them, we are not getting enough for our cereals either. And there was another thing about education and educating small children and all this education in the middle today, I feel really retailers seem to be educated more than anybody. Like I said to Darina we should have about one-hundred Darinas and another hundred of you John, going around telling people how good all artisan producers are because when I go into a shop and look to get on a shelf they just say back well we dont have elastic shelves Helen. You know, where are we going to put your stuff? That to me is a huge massive problem for all artisan small producers. And to grow, you must grow to survive now. John But is one of the keys to growing then for a specialist producer who wants to get to the market to have a diversity of outlets, farmers market, specialist shops, mass market retailers, multiples and so on? Helen Yeah and you have to deal with them all at this stage because small shops are just falling. They are getting thinner on the ground and like Musgraves going to take over Superquinn now thats another bigger player that you have to deal with and thats where I see that you have to deal with these people. But they are looking for such high profit themselves and forget you know this is a handmade, we are stirring jam all day and like I said to some person here at dinner, we need to stir up this debate a little bit more here this evening. But thats where I see you know educating theres no agri-buyers here from the multiples and thats who id like to see here today and see whats their impression of a small artisan producer. And where do they see us going in the five years time. John Good point, yeah, Una how would you see that? Weve five minutes to go if we can have one comment from everybody just to conclude. Una Fitzgibbon Thats where I feel the unification of the individual stories is very important because that gives you the sound level in terms of the voice to be heard by the multiple retailer, well to be heard by the consumer and to get the consumer franchise in terms of multiple retail commitment. But the other big opportunity for people in terms of food tourism is

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eventually ecommerce. And selling on line to the visitor who comes to visit and so on, but also perhaps this opportunity that was mentioned earlier in terms of the Ring of Kerry where the hospitality sector is actually serving Ring of Kerry lamb in the Ring of Kerry. So developing those local sustainable models will be important to close that circle. Noel Yeah same thing, I mean again I would say its in your hands, you can put the pressure, the minister is coming up here in a few minutes so you can keep the pressure going with him. But locally, working together locally its like in tourism it was eventually realized maybe ten or fifteen years ago that if people worked together they can create a real product. So the diving school with the bicycle hire guy with the local hotel with the car hire guy you put them together and now youve got a product. It seems to me thats the kind of language you are using. And working with the tour guys is clearly an easy way. The other thing I would say is I think you should, I dont know how you do this but the idea that the local hotels are not selling their own local product is absolutely scandalous and I think there should be huge pressure put on locally to remind those guys that every time they dont do that they are devaluing their own proposition. And thats an education thing, that has to be done and done at highest level to make this happen. John But john Mulcahy is going to be going and standing on a few heads then are you John? John Mulcahy I think we are doing it already, I mean we are starting and we are starting with food in tourism rather than food tourism. You have to start there because of the sandwich in the pub is crap well you have to deal with that. So certainly in my area where you bring in a couple of journalists a year and you bring them off and show them the best you have and then they come down for breakfast the following morning and they get rubber eggs and hairy bacon, it beggars the mind. So weve got to work (laughing). But Ive got to go back to Aoife and what was said earlier it is about ecommerce, the food in tourism is worth 2bn a year but thats limited and at the rate all producers are appearing and all of the new products you know theres a big pie but its going to have to be sliced up. But the thing is these days with Ryanair and everything else you cant take that stuff home with you, so when you go home you want to share your experience, traditionally it would have been look at my photographs, now you want to be able to take out the bottle of French wine or the slice of Irish cheese or the piece of Limerick ham or jam or whatever it is and bring that with you. You cant bring that with you so the major market is as soon as I get home I'm getting onto the website and I'm going to order it in so I can have a dinner party and show everybody the products I found. John So Margaret when you are introducing people youve got to get their email right. Margaret Absolutely, got to read email. I suppose when I look around the room and I see an awful lot of food producers what I find is that dont underestimate the lack of knowledge that

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the hospitality sector has of your product because there is a massive lack of knowledge. And dont just go into them and say buy my cheese or buy my meat give them the story because they will only, if the chef is working under GP and hes the accountant as you talked about this morning and he doesnt see the vision himself hes not going to understand it. So give him the story to be able to go back as well to make the case for him to buy your product that is cheaper than the Dutch bacon that hes buying for his breakfast every day. So dont just go in and sell your bacon give him the story, tell him why that ring of Kerry lamb is so special and why that local Killarney hotel should be buying the Ring of Kerry lamb because there is a story. And just please dont underestimate that because I see that every day. And then to the hospitality people and the chefs that are in the room, I would say dont underestimate the lack of communication of the lack of understanding between you and your sales and marketing team because I have spoken to chefs Recording ends abruptly at this point.

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