19:17 - Bread.: Mate are people who are forced to feel emotions really people? 19:17 - Weirdo: Yep.

19:18 - Weirdo: In my opinion at least 19:18 - Bread.: Okay, how do you define a person? 19:18 - Weirdo: Wombats played in Dr Who. Awesomeness levels double. 19:18 - Bread.: What would a person have to lose to not be a person anymore? 19:18 - Weirdo: Err, their life? All their feelings till they're just a vegetable? 19:20 - Bread.: Define vegetable? 19:21 - Weirdo: Unable to do anything but basic functions of swallowing, digesting, breathing, heart beating 19:21 - Bread.: So if you were able to drive you'd not be a vegetable? 19:21 - Bread.: For example. 19:22 - Weirdo: Well, I guess it depends 19:22 - Weirdo: How blank they are 19:23 - Weirdo: You could talk to them and you wouldn't get a response cos they don't understand you 19:23 - Bread.: So if they respond they're a person? 19:24 - Weirdo: Actually no. They're still a person less they're dead, they're just kinda retarded 19:24 - Weirdo: In a more spiritual sense they're a "person" if they can respond 19:24 - Weirdo: Maybe 19:24 - Weirdo: That sounds like a good classification 19:24 - Bread.: Mate no offense but you have massively low standards on what makes a person a person. 19:25 - Bread.: Cleverbot can hold a conversation, Google Cars can drive themselves. 19:25 - Bread.: Are they people? 19:25 - Weirdo: As long as the reason they can't respond is complete and utter non brain understanding No. Cos they're not humans 19:25 - Weirdo: To be a person you have to be alive 19:25 - Bread.: Define alive? 19:25 - Weirdo: FIrst rule is living organism 19:26 - Weirdo: Or suitably replicating one, a seriously advanced robot could be considered a person 19:26 - Weirdo: Not alive though 19:26 - Weirdo: Life has to be biological in my opinion 19:26 - Weirdo: Also how are they low? 19:26 - Weirdo: It doesn't take much to make a person 19:26 - Weirdo: Just a really disinteresting one 19:27 - Bread.: Because it has to be alive isn't a good satisfaction to be a person. 19:27 - Bread.: Plants are alive. 19:27 - Bread.: Ducks are alive. 19:27 - Bread.: Are they people? 19:27 - Weirdo: No, first rule is life 19:27 - Bread.: Also a biological process is a chemical process inside of a living animal, right? 19:27 - Weirdo: Second rule is response 19:28 - Weirdo: Err, I guess so 19:28 - Bread.: If you cut a plant, it releases gas. 19:28 - Bread.: If you kick a duck, it runs away. 19:28 - Weirdo: Understanding response 19:28 - Weirdo: Not instinct 19:28 - Bread.: Define understandign? 19:29 - Weirdo: Hmm.. 19:29 - Weirdo: Let me see. Not trained association, and can be applied to a different situation 19:29 - Weirdo: Someone stabs me I feel pain

19:29 - Weirdo: I notice knife is sharp 19:30 - Weirdo: I notice sharp thing damaged me 19:30 - Weirdo: Next time I avoid sharp things, or at least keep them away 19:30 - Weirdo: That's basic understanding 19:30 - Bread.: Also, if you put an AI advanced enough to be considered mentally alive inside a computer which simulated digestion using chemicals would it be a living organism. 19:30 - Bread.: You can train animals, mate. 19:30 - Weirdo: /Not trained/ 19:31 - Weirdo: Has to be it figuring out 19:31 - Weirdo: And not just instinctually 19:31 - Weirdo: AH PAIN GO AWAY 19:31 - Bread.: Are you trying to say that figuring things out is in any way different from being trained? 19:31 - Weirdo: Also yeah, AI inside a biological body would be alive in my opinion, might depend on ratios 19:31 - Bread.: Ratios of what? 19:32 - Bread.: And why would an AI just floating on a server on the web not be alive, then? 19:32 - Weirdo: And the chemical parts would be needed for most things, not just energy source. Ratio of mechanical to biological 19:32 - Weirdo: Damn, I've falled into a fallacy :/ 19:32 - Bread.: Why does life have to be biological? 19:32 - Bread.: And why would an AI just floating on a server on the web not be alive, then? 19:32 - Weirdo: And the chemical parts would be needed for most things, not just energy source. Ratio of mechanical to biological 19:32 - Weirdo: Damn, I've falled into a fallacy :/ 19:32 - Bread.: Why does life have to be biological? 19:32 - Bread.: Fallen* 19:33 - Weirdo: When you're failing, might as well go all the way :D 19:33 - Weirdo: And it has to be biological cos that's just the definition 19:33 - Bread.: The current definition. 19:33 - Weirdo: My definition 19:33 - Bread.: Which was probably written way before AI was even considered. 19:33 - Weirdo: Okay reworking of self 19:34 - Bread.: What is it that would make an intelligent AI floating on a webserver not alive? 19:34 - Bread.: What is intrinsic to biological components so that life can only be found in them? 19:34 - Weirdo: The fact that's it's not got a biological body that was produced naturally? 19:34 - Weirdo: Currently, a heck of a lot 19:34 - Bread.: Why does life have to be natural? 19:34 - Bread.: Why does currently mean anything in a speculative argument? 19:35 - Weirdo: And even later there'll be plenty of differences 19:36 - Bread.: That doesn't mean one is life and one isn't. 19:36 - Bread.: It just means they're different forms of life. 19:36 - Weirdo: So how do you define life then? 19:38 - Bread.: Sentience. 19:39 - Weirdo: Are plants sentient? 19:39 - Bread.: Yeah. 19:39 - Weirdo: How come? 19:39 - Bread.: They grow towards the light. 19:40 - Bread.: And they release gasses when cut, which is a reaction to damage. 19:40 - Weirdo: So we've already created artificial life in your books 19:41 - Bread.: Early forms, sure. 19:41 - Bread.: In some ways driving cars are more alive than many animals, because they know how

to not get hit by other cars. 19:45 - Weirdo: Right... And what do you count as self? 19:45 - Bread.: What do you mean what do you count as self? 19:45 - Weirdo: Wait 19:45 - Weirdo: Wrong question 19:45 - Weirdo: Person 19:45 - Weirdo: What do you count as a person 19:46 - Bread.: Oh. 19:47 - Bread.: Sapience? 19:47 - Weirdo: Oh that's a great answer... not vague at all. What do you count sapience as 19:48 - Bread.: Sapience is a deep understanding and realization of people, things, events or situations, resulting in the ability to choose or act or inspire to consistently produce the optimum results with a minimum of time, energy or thought. It is the ability to optimally (effectively and efficiently) apply perceptions and knowledge and so produce the desired results. Wisdom is also the comprehension of what is true or right coupled with optimum judgment as to action. Synonyms include: sagacity, discernment, or insight. Wisdom often requires control of one's emotional reactions (the "passions") so that one's principles, reason and knowledge prevail to determine one's actions. Wikipedia. 19:48 - Bread.: Turns out sapience actually isn't a vague term mate. ;D 19:51 - Weirdo: Only difference between that and what I said is 1) you used wikipedia to explain it better, 2) mine didn't include the right and wrong 3) Mine has life unless it's a robot 19:51 - Bread.: And I think entirely discounting all mechanical and infomatic life is a massive misstep. 19:52 - Bread.: And missing out half of what a quality is makes for a pretty shit arguement. 19:52 - Weirdo: And I'd say two is wrong, cos even if you have a mental disease i.e. sociopathy and can't tell right and wrong you're still a person 19:53 - Bread.: Sociopaths can still find out what is 'right' by finding what other people think and then comforming with society. :D 19:55 - Weirdo: But they don't have the ability to tell what is right and wrong, that's just imitation 19:55 - Weirdo: It's not "optimum judgement" 19:58 - Bread.: Dunno then. 19:58 - Bread.: Sapience is only a part of being a person, I guess. 19:59 - Weirdo: I'd say you have to be kinda advanced 19:59 - Weirdo: And can think 19:59 - Weirdo: Hell I'm tempted to discount stupid and or retarded people 19:59 - Bread.: Yeah I guess I agree with you except for having to be biologically or 'naturally' alive. 20:00 - Weirdo: So really, I don't have low standards for personship :D 20:00 - Weirdo: Also I'm not so sure of that anymore 20:00 - Weirdo: I'd count an AI as a person 20:00 - Bread.: No wait I forgot your standards were pretty stupid. 20:01 - Weirdo: Despite not being a person 20:01 - Bread.: If you just have to have basic living functions then animals are people. 20:02 - Weirdo: No, I said that doesn't count 20:02 - Weirdo: That was my standards for being a vegetable 20:02 - Weirdo: Which I said didn't count 20:03 - Bread.: What were your standards then? 20:04 - Weirdo: Pretty damn vague :D "Succificiently" advanced thoughts, can respond with "understanding". Not too sure on the life thing, I'm on the fence 20:04 - Bread.: So your standards for being a person is being smart and sapient? 20:04 - Bread.: No statements on emotions? :< 20:05 - Weirdo: "sufficiently" advanced means very basic, above animal basically, you can still be

stupid and a person (he says begrudgingly). 20:05 - Weirdo: And no 20:05 - Weirdo: Not really 20:06 - Weirdo: People can be uber logical, they can have mental disorders stopping emotion 20:06 - Weirdo: Emotion makes a more interesting and or maybe a better person 20:06 - Weirdo: But in no way necessary 20:06 - Weirdo: And neither does yours 20:06 - Bread.: Mate someone that runs on PURE logic and has no emotion isn't really a person, they're a machine. 20:07 - Weirdo: Would count em as a really boring person, unlikely cos most humans are emotional 20:07 - Weirdo: But that doesn't mean that's what counts as a person 20:12 - Weirdo: What's ARMA? 20:21 - Bread.: Mate I disagree that having literally no emotions would just make you a boring person. 20:21 - Weirdo: How much is enough to count then? 20:22 - Bread.: Mate you're asking me for an exact point where a machine becomes a man? 20:22 - Weirdo: ...Yes :D 20:22 - Weirdo: Or at least a rough estimate 20:22 - Bread.: Well that's something I can't give you. 20:22 - Weirdo: A guess? 20:23 - Bread.: That's something I don't want to give you. 20:24 - Weirdo: Why not? 20:24 - Bread.: Because guessing on what makes a person a person is not something that it's healthy to do. 20:25 - Weirdo: o.0. Isn't that what we've been doing for the past half hour? And also what's unhealthy about it 20:26 - Bread.: Mate discussing it is fine but making guesses about concrete and exact tipping points is far too real. ;< 20:27 - Weirdo: So you're afraid of reality? 20:28 - Weirdo: Sorry 20:28 - Weirdo: I've been twisiting all of Rory's words 20:28 - Weirdo: It's a fun habit :D 20:28 - Bread.: I'm not afraid of reality. 20:29 - Weirdo: I know man 20:29 - Bread.: I'm afraid of deciding about things that aren't real yet in case my speculative opinion clouds what could be real in the future. 20:30 - Weirdo: That seems kind of arrogant, assuming some teenage discussions could affect definitions of personhood in a later life. Hell only real way I see that happening is if one of us invents a real AI 20:33 - Weirdo: One of us should do that man 20:33 - Weirdo: It would be badass 20:33 - Weirdo: :D 20:33 - Bread.: Okay. 20:33 - Bread.: I'll go grab the work of hundreds of scientists in the last 60 years and you go get the amazing programming skill. 20:33 - Bread.: We'll have it done by tomorrow. 20:34 - Weirdo: Badass, we'll be legends man 20:34 - Weirdo: Youngest billionaires 20:34 - Weirdo: First trillionaires 20:36 - Bread.: Do you really think true AI would be worth that much? 20:36 - Bread.: Sure it'd be insanely valuable but in the scope of trillions? 20:37 - Bread.: Multiple trillions?

20:37 - Bread.: Also R34 actually has some really interesting ideas on AI, but to explain them would kind of spoil it. 20:38 - Weirdo: Dude, AI is just the start, it'd get us pretty damn close and we use that to consolidate our power in a variety of business and then we become trillionaires. 20:38 - Weirdo: But actually, a Copyright on AI's would probably get you several trillion 20:38 - Bread.: Sounds pretty boring except the AI. 20:38 - Weirdo: On it's own 20:38 - Bread.: Is copyrightig a living being ethical? 20:39 - Bread.: Seems like slavery to me. 20:39 - Weirdo: So many different applications. We're not copyrighting the being, just the method of creating the being 20:39 - Weirdo: Also, they wouldn't be recognised as people legally 20:39 - Weirdo: But they probably would be used as pretty much slaves 20:39 - Bread.: Oh, so we're just copyrighting birth. 20:39 - Weirdo: Legal slaves :D. HELL YEAH 20:40 - Bread.: I wouldn't want that. If they're living they should be recognised as living. 20:40 - Weirdo: We could program them so they're more helpful minded and just want to help 20:40 - Bread.: Mate a true AI couldn't just be programmed to be helpful. 20:41 - Bread.: It's like what I was saying at the start of this, if you fuck with a person's mind, they're not really a person anymore. 20:41 - Weirdo: Sure it could, be tricky, but it's just like intuitive things that you'd want to do 20:41 - Weirdo: Not full proof 20:41 - Weirdo: If you tortured it all the time it would stop obeying 20:42 - Bread.: A 'true' AI in a pure sense of the word true would have to have as much free will as us. 20:42 - Weirdo: Nope, that's just robot people 20:42 - Bread.: Limited AIs who are basically mindless servitors which are mindless except to serve could be useful. 20:42 - Weirdo: Not an AI 20:42 - Weirdo: AI's are different to humans 20:42 - Bread.: Uh, no. 20:43 - Bread.: Robot people are true AIs inside mechanical bodies. 20:43 - Bread.: Infomatic AIs wouldn't be robots at all. 20:45 - Bread.: And maybe AI is too vague a term. Artificial Conciousness is probably more accurate. 20:46 - Weirdo: Pretty sure you could manipulate it a bit, give it some innate characteristics 20:46 - Bread.: No. 20:46 - Bread.: You could after it's creation, but hard coding it to be helpful or whatever isn't making a person, it's making a slave. 20:46 - Bread.: No matter how subtle it is. 20:47 - Weirdo: Dude, you could, you'd just be complaining about how it's "Unethical". Also we're hardcoded as survivors, how does that make us less people? 20:48 - Bread.: No, it's not unethical, I'd agree with creating mindless slave 'AI's do be like more efficient versions of Google or whatever. 20:48 - Bread.: But if you're saying something is a true person created artificially and you're hardcoding behaviours then I disagree with you definitionally. 20:49 - Bread.: Because I don't see an entity with behaviours forced onto them as true people. 20:50 - Weirdo: Okay, assuming we can make AI's we then use that for funding, make far inferior slave AI's, become trillionaires, youngest billionaires and also the creators of a new kind of metal people :D Why didn't you mention that earlier? 20:50 - Bread.: I did. 20:50 - Bread.: That's the entire starting point of this conversation.

20:50 - Bread.: Plus why do the people need to be metal? 20:51 - Bread.: Are we as a species so in love with physical forms that our sapient children race would have to inhabit forms as physical as ours? 20:51 - Bread.: Infomatic creatures would have a whole bunch of advantages we won't have access to until mind uploading becomes a viable technology. 20:51 - Weirdo: No, you implied it early on, but when it actual came to defining a person you didn't mention it. I think it'd help us relate. Also it's less likely they'd think of us as inferior and different and try to kill us all 20:52 - Bread.: 19:17 - Bread.: Mate are people who are forced to feel emotions really people? 20:52 - Bread.: I guess it's not exactly explicit but I thought it was pretty obvious. 20:53 - Weirdo: It was, I thought that was your point initially, but then when I asked you just mentioned sapience 20:53 - Weirdo: And I was surprised 20:53 - Bread.: And how exactly would a life form that existed entirely as pattens of code being sent as light across wires kill all of us? 20:53 - Bread.: Giving them robotic bodies gives them potentially infinitely upgradable platforms to give themselves all manner of weapons, or allows them to disguise if they do decide to kill us all. 20:54 - Bread.: And there's no reason why they couldn't just download their mind from their robot body and upload it to the net. 20:55 - Weirdo: Okay fine, but can we also invent holographic images for it to have a face and identify itself. Actually that's interesting, is a hive mind a person or persons or neither? 20:55 - Bread.: Why do they need a face and identity? 20:56 - Bread.: Why do they need a form to have an identity? 20:56 - Weirdo: Identity's are cooler, and forms allow us to interact and notice those identities easier 20:57 - Bread.: While we talk in simply text, we have no form in relation to eachother, right? 20:57 - Bread.: Like, our forms are entirely irrelevant in this conversation except for housing our minds which are talking, and our fingers which are typing. 20:57 - Bread.: Yet you are interacting with me. :3 20:57 - Weirdo: Online, your form is your name 20:58 - Weirdo: Without that, it'd get confusing 20:58 - Weirdo: It could still be done don't get me wrong 20:58 - Weirdo: It could still be done don't get me wrong 20:58 - Bread.: So why can't we give our True Artificial Conciousnesses names? 20:58 - Bread.: TAC is the intialism from now on, by the way? 20:59 - Weirdo: Isn't that an acronym, cos it's pronouncable? And cool. And it would have names, faces would just further ease things and make my fantasies even more true 20:59 - Bread.: No, it's an acronym if it's an actual word. 20:59 - Bread.: Is tac a word? 20:59 - Weirdo: Tic tac? 21:00 - Weirdo: No it's not 21:00 - Weirdo: Loads of things are called TAC though 21:00 - Bread.: Chill. :D 21:00 - Bread.: TGC? 21:00 - Bread.: True Generated Conciousness. 21:00 - Weirdo: Including an istant messaging site by AOL 21:00 - Bread.: Then again I guess humans are generated. 21:01 - Weirdo: TDC? 21:01 - Weirdo: True digital conciousness? 21:01 - Bread.: Developed? 21:01 - Weirdo: Ooh 21:01 - Bread.: Digital.

21:01 - Bread.: That's good. 21:01 - Weirdo: Developed is even better 21:01 - Weirdo: But not as accurate 21:01 - Bread.: Yeah. 21:01 - Weirdo: Much less TDC's :D 21:01 - Bread.: You hotgoogling this shit? 21:02 - Weirdo: Wiking 21:02 - Weirdo: You'd get a google result no matter what 21:02 - Weirdo: Wiki shows relevant things 21:02 - Bread.: Oh yeah I guess. 21:02 - Bread.: Nice one 21:02 - Weirdo: Only thing that might be confused with is 21:02 - Weirdo: Time to digital converter 21:03 - Weirdo: Rest are places, cept for total delievery cost 21:03 - Weirdo: And a Danish communication company 21:03 - Weirdo: But that's TDC A/S 21:03 - Bread.: Yeah. 21:04 - Weirdo: SO TDC seems like a good one 21:04 - Bread.: True Digitised Life? 21:04 - Bread.: :D 21:04 - Bread.: TDL. 21:04 - Weirdo: Texas Digital Library 21:04 - Weirdo: Tally Definition Language a programming language for customising Tally Solutions software 21:04 - Bread.: Yes they will be forever mixed up. 21:05 - Weirdo: Also, it might just be me, but that looks like tldr to me... 21:05 - Weirdo: Maybe that's just mild dyslexia :D 21:05 - Weirdo: Also, Life isn't as accurate 21:05 - Weirdo: Conciousness is the most important thing 21:05 - Weirdo: I thing TDC is fine 21:05 - Bread.: Conciousness, yeah. 21:06 - Bread.: Pure Digitised Conciousness? 21:06 - Bread.: PDC. 21:06 - Bread.: Pure as in removed of all hardcoding and impediments to free will. 21:06 - Bread.: There'd probably be a load of different types, too. 21:06 - Weirdo: . Ruining my fun. 21:06 - Weirdo: Also PDC has hella lot of results 21:07 - Weirdo: Popstars Dance Company, a German dance company 21:07 - Weirdo: That's one of my favourite :D 21:07 - Bread.: Digital _______ Conciousness? 21:08 - Bread.: Maintanence for intelligent bug squashing and troubleshootign operators. 21:08 - Bread.: Social for 'digital friends' or conversational conciounessnesses. 21:09 - Bread.: Entertainment for intelligent DJs or music creators or whatever. 21:09 - Weirdo: And then PDC or TDC for just people 21:09 - Bread.: Well it'd be like job descriptions. 21:10 - Bread.: They're all basically the same stock of people just how we're all humans. 21:10 - Bread.: They just chose different professions. 21:10 - Weirdo: That's discrimination! 21:11 - Weirdo: And believe me, if we start treating em like people, AI rights will quickly rise 21:11 - Bread.: And what in the world is wrong with that? 21:11 - Bread.: It's not discrimination. 21:11 - Bread.: It's naming.

21:11 - Weirdo: I mean that you can't give em names just for their jobs 21:11 - Weirdo: It has to be the same jobs 21:11 - Bread.: Calling plumbers manual workers isn't discrimination, it's calling the dude a goddamn manual worker. 21:12 - Weirdo: Otherwise why can't I be a digital friend and just chat to people 21:12 - Bread.: Why would they have to have the same job? 21:12 - Weirdo: Have to have the opportunities for the same jobs 21:12 - Bread.: They'd be vastly different lifeforms to us, trying to force them into the same rights as us is beyond retarded. 21:13 - Weirdo: We're humans, retarded is what we do best 21:13 - Bread.: Yeah but it'd also be a huge amount of effort being retarded. 21:13 - Weirdo: Forcing them into the same rights is just the kind of thing that'd happen 21:13 - Bread.: And effort is something we don't do very well. :D 21:13 - Weirdo: I disagree 21:13 - Weirdo: Bureacracy is great at wasted effort 21:13 - Bread.: Mate I really hope not. 21:14 - Bread.: Bureaucracy is good at wasted effort in order to keep records, which is a noble goal. 21:14 - Bread.: Massive amount of wasted effort to limit an exciting new lifeform to just copies of us spread across the net is both horrifying, retarded and inefficient. 21:16 - Bread.: Saying that entities which require almost nothing to sustain themselves except the electricity to power their computers deserve the rights to get a job as a plumber in the real world in order to earn money for pay for themselves just like we do is so DUHRRRR that it makes me sad. 21:18 - Weirdo: And you wonder why I'm cynical... Okay, let's assume, true careful legal work, and never defining them as "people" we get control over there rules and rights 21:18 - Weirdo: What kind of rights would you give em 21:18 - Bread.: No, they're people. 21:18 - Bread.: They're just vastly different people to us. 21:19 - Bread.: Just like we're vastly different to animals, and we have different rights to animals. 21:19 - Weirdo: Dude, you can think that privately, but if we define em as people we'd have to treat them like people 21:19 - Weirdo: Make up a word 21:19 - Weirdo: Use it in the press 21:19 - Bread.: Mate, human rights isn't people rights. 21:20 - Bread.: Many rights would cross over but a species that exists solely in data can't hold a physical job. 21:20 - Bread.: That's just physics. 21:20 - Weirdo: Reminds me of a scene in iRobot when they get him out of custody cos murder is "one human killing another human" 21:21 - Weirdo: And human rights and people rights is currently the same thing 21:21 - Weirdo: A distinction would only need to be made if this happened 21:21 - Weirdo: And you'd have to be careful not to lump em together or stupid people would think that 21:22 - Bread.: Mate you say human rights and people rights are the same thing. 21:22 - Bread.: But they'd be different once non-human people exist. 21:22 - Bread.: That's just obvious. 21:23 - Weirdo: Maybe I'm just not trusting humans eniough 21:24 - Weirdo: I'll take your word for it 21:24 - Bread.: Mate I don't get how you're not getting this. 21:24 - Bread.: People aren't that retarded. 21:24 - Bread.: Hopefully least of all our theoretical Digtal Conciousnesses. 21:24 - Bread.: :D

21:25 - Weirdo: :D 21:26 - Weirdo: They will be geniuses 21:26 - Weirdo: Procreation would be interesting... 21:26 - Bread.: They will be whatever they want to be. 21:26 - Weirdo: Dude, we sound like mother and father now 21:26 - Weirdo: "My son shall be a great doctor" 21:26 - Weirdo: "Oh don't put pressure on him, he can be what he wants" 21:27 - Weirdo: Also they'd probably be really smart, with access to so much knowledge and so... 21:27 - Bread.: They wouldn't be able to be an actual doctor. 21:27 - Weirdo: Do you think procreation would be likening to splitting personalities in them? 21:27 - Bread.: Wait, yeah they would. 21:27 - Weirdo: Yeah they could, just not a surgeon 21:27 - Bread.: Maybe they'd learn how to program and write their own? 21:27 - Weirdo: Doctors mainly just diagnose 21:27 - Bread.: Following the template but making their own subtle changes. 21:28 - Bread.: Yeah, and they could theoretically be surgeons, when remote control surgery bots come into the fore. 21:28 - Bread.: They already exist, I think. 21:28 - Weirdo: I think so, don't think they're that good though 21:28 - Weirdo: Like still experimental and shizz 21:29 - Bread.: So in 10 years they'll be standard issue. :D 21:29 - Bread.: 21:27 - Bread.: Following the template but making their own subtle changes. 21:29 - Bread.: That's actually kind of beautiful. 21:29 - Weirdo: Yeah but, we're making this tomorrow, so not enough time for that 21:29 - Weirdo: Is it really? Picking the features of your son and making him 21:30 - Bread.: I guess when you think about it. 21:30 - Weirdo: (Picking gender as son cos I'm sexist :D. Asexual naturall) 21:30 - Bread.: But maybe we'd just create a blank 'baby' Conciousness. 21:31 - Bread.: And then we'd have to raise it up like an actual kid. 21:31 - Bread.: And the question of gender in Digital conciousnesses is interesting, too. 21:32 - Weirdo: I'd see it as pretty much completely unecessary 21:32 - Bread.: Yeah, generally unnecessary. 21:32 - Weirdo: Unless we want to introduce a mother father dynamic 21:32 - Weirdo: Also, if there's new life, would there be death? 21:33 - Bread.: But maybe it'd become 'cool' for DCs to take on certain gender traits in certain circles. 21:33 - Bread.: I guess, if enough of the code was corrupted to make the DC totally blank or dead. 21:33 - Bread.: Or if they were stored on a server and that server was destroyed or something. 21:33 - Bread.: They might spread around, so that at least one of their forks would always survive. 21:33 - Bread.: You could have entire communities of a single AI forked multiple times. 21:34 - Bread.: Or maybe they'd see that as massively egotistical, or morally wrong in some way. 21:34 - Weirdo: That would be sweet 21:34 - Bread.: Maybe that's how they reproduce. 21:35 - Bread.: Fork off, then split for a number of years until they're completely different people. 21:35 - Bread.: Shaped by experiences. 21:35 - Bread.: And then comes the question about how they'd view time. 21:35 - Bread.: Man DCs are basically so fun to talk about. 21:35 - Weirdo: Yep 21:35 - Weirdo: I'd assume we'd give them a body clock 21:36 - Weirdo: So they'd see time our way 21:36 - Weirdo: But it's effect would be much less 21:36 - Bread.: Would it be right to give them anything? 21:37 - Bread.: How would we choose what natural urges to give them?

21:37 - Weirdo: Cos they're effectively immortal as long as they're careful and not unlucky 21:37 - Bread.: How would it pan out if we decided to give them none? 21:38 - Weirdo: I don't think we could give them none, first I think that'd just leave them completely intentionless. In the end it'd be up to our judgement on what to put in 21:38 - Weirdo: But the two of us could come up would a decent list of urges 21:38 - Bread.: What if we choose wrong? 21:38 - Weirdo: Cos we'd cancel each other out 21:38 - Weirdo: You'd stop things too utilitarian or emotional forcing, I'd stop pointless or too emotional things 21:38 - Bread.: Maybe we should come up with a whole bunch of different combinations of urges based on a whole bunch of diferent factors, and then give them all some kind of test. 21:39 - Bread.: But would discarding the failures be murder? 21:39 - Bread.: Would killing an entity which can endlessly fork be murder? 21:39 - Weirdo: Euthenasia? 21:39 - Bread.: What? 21:40 - Weirdo: If it's permanent, then probably could be counted as murder. Killing failures with the wrong urges could be considered euthenasia 21:40 - Weirdo: Cos we failed them 21:40 - Weirdo: And there life is worse 21:40 - Bread.: But if they're still fully functioning and wanting to live then would it really be euthanasia? 21:40 - Bread.: And euthanasia is a massive debate anyway. 21:41 - Weirdo: Depends if we give them the will to live :D. Yeah it is, but it's easier than murder... 21:42 - Bread.: Does making it easier than muder make it righter than murder? 21:42 - Bread.: Also, I'm totally saving this entire conversation because it's so interesting. 21:42 - Weirdo: I meant easier to justify, not easier to do 21:42 - Weirdo: This is why I love chat logging 21:42 - Bread.: Hell yeah. 21:42 - Weirdo: I have some epic conversations some times... 21:43 - Weirdo: Too many of me and yours are lost cos of steam 21:43 - Bread.: But isn't creating an entity with no survival urge and then killing it horrible in a totally twisted way, anyway? 21:44 - Weirdo: What about if we don't make them full on TDC's? Just basic simulations? 21:44 - Bread.: Hmm, maybe. 21:46 - Weirdo: Not perfect, but it decreases the chances of getting the wrong urges while avoiding accidental murder 21:46 - Weirdo: Would it be wrong to try and make them better 21:47 - Weirdo: Like better people, more charitable, nicer 21:48 - Bread.: Yeah. 21:48 - Bread.: Because then we're making good people, not people. 21:48 - Bread.: And without the shitheads good people aren't good. :D 21:49 - Weirdo: Thought you might say that. WHY. What's wrong with a group were good is standard 21:49 - Weirdo: And exceptional counts as good 21:49 - Bread.: Because who are YOU to decide that these people are good? 21:50 - Weirdo: Their creator? I can at least judge on things that are definitely are good 21:50 - Weirdo: I'm not saying arbitarily add good characteristics 21:50 - Weirdo: But this would be a chance to do things a little better 21:51 - Bread.: Mate, many beautiful things have come out of the darkest recesses of the human mind. 21:51 - Weirdo: You complain that if god exist he shouldn't have given people free will and allowed them to commit evil 21:51 - Bread.: And I don't think that removing or discouraging parts of the DC mind is right. :< 21:52 - Bread.: No, I think if god does exist he was right to give us free will.

21:52 - Weirdo: A few gems doesn't justify badness in general 21:52 - Bread.: No, but they're still beautiful. :D 21:52 - Weirdo: Who are you to say what's beautiful :D. Also what kind of things? 21:53 - Bread.: Basically everything Arteaud did ever. 21:53 - Weirdo: Who? 21:53 - Bread.: I think a peice of art to truly depict evil or hate needs at least a little hate or evil inside the artist. 21:53 - Bread.: Theatre of Cruelty. 21:53 - Bread.: Insane Frenchman. 21:54 - Bread.: One of the higher ups in the surrealism movement. 21:54 - Weirdo: If evil doesn't exist, why is it important to depict it 21:54 - Weirdo: Great, beautiful things can be made from good instead 21:55 - Bread.: Beautiful things can be made from anything, but who are you to say that this lifeform should find it harder to draw on that form of inspiration? 21:57 - Weirdo: A little bit more struggle in inspiration is worth no evil man 21:57 - Bread.: I would argue that struggle helped define us as a species in a massive way. 21:58 - Bread.: And it didn't do that bad a job. 21:59 - Weirdo: It didn't do a great job either 21:59 - Weirdo: Why not give them a try at something a bit less difficult 21:59 - Weirdo: See how it treats them 22:00 - Bread.: What, pulling a risk like that on what could be our only chance to create an completely unique new form of life? 22:01 - Weirdo: I don't see making their life better as a risk 22:01 - Weirdo: I see it as us not trying to subject them to our own experiences just cos we took them as well 22:02 - Bread.: What if it results in making them completely inviable as a lifeform for some unpredicted reason? 22:02 - Bread.: Plus, why are you assuming you know what's best for them? 22:05 - Weirdo: I'm not, I'm saying maybe we should try, a chance at a perfect life seems better then just subjecting them to our problems. 22:06 - Weirdo: Also if they do become inviable as a lifeform we can delete them without it being murder 22:06 - Weirdo: And start again 22:06 - Bread.: So essentially you're saying that we should fuck about and experiment with actual living things. 22:06 - Bread.: And no matter what Abdu they probably won't be facing the same problems as us. 22:08 - Weirdo: Yes! I don't want to be responsble for the genesis of a creature that could do /horrible/ things 22:09 - Bread.: And I think that the creation of a brand new form of life should be handled by people willing to think about the race and forget what they want. 22:10 - Weirdo: I think you should be a little less objective in order to try and make the best possible lifeform, making them good would make them happier (or at least less sad) and make life better 22:11 - Weirdo: Win win as far as I can see 22:11 - Bread.: We shouldn't be aiming to create the best possible lifeform. 22:11 - Bread.: Because define best. 22:12 - Weirdo: Happy, does well, maybe even provides to a greater cause if possible 22:12 - Weirdo: Or at least as good as we can get 22:13 - Bread.: And what if someone else said that best meant they were capable of doing great things, and claimed that making them all generally good would discourage maybe bad emotions and actions like jealousy, manipulation and cunning which could be very useful in doing these great actions? 22:14 - Bread.: And someone else said that best meant they could create great works of art and they

needed to know suffering in order to get inspiration to create many of them? 22:14 - Bread.: And someone else said that best meant purest and that messing with their minds was morally wrong? 22:15 - Weirdo: Then maybe those people should make their own AI's rather than cashing in on us 22:15 - Weirdo: :D 22:15 - Bread.: What if I held all of those opinions? 22:15 - Bread.: :D 22:16 - Weirdo: Aren't they conflicting? 22:16 - Bread.: How so? 22:16 - Bread.: They all say that making them nicer people is pretty wrong. 22:17 - Weirdo: If they're gonna work at making great things, you'd need to mess with their minds in order to make sure that's what would occur 22:17 - Bread.: I never said that, did I? 22:17 - Weirdo: Also, is it messing if you're designing it in the first place 22:18 - Bread.: What if you design a template of a 'blank' AI, and then raise it like a child? 22:18 - Bread.: I already mentioned that, I think. 22:18 - Weirdo: What's in the blank? 22:19 - Bread.: Well the ability to learn, maybe the combination of 'natural' urges we decided upon. 22:19 - Weirdo: Have decided upon natural urges yet? 22:19 - Bread.: Not much, maybe roughly what a human baby has in their brain when they're born? 22:19 - Bread.: Do you mean have we? 22:19 - Bread.: Nope, not yet. 22:21 - Weirdo: Yeah I meant have we 22:21 - Weirdo: See, then we're making them Humans 22:21 - Weirdo: Babies have A LOT in their heads 22:22 - Bread.: A lot of what? 22:22 - Weirdo: Earlier you were against just making digital humans, but that's what this'll lead to. A lot of innate impulses and urges 22:23 - Bread.: Mate how so? 22:23 - Bread.: Human minds are created from both experience and natural urges, right? 22:23 - Bread.: Experience being everything you learn after you're born and urges being everything you're born with. 22:23 - Weirdo: Yeah, but there's still quite a lot in the natural urges that affects things 22:23 - Bread.: Well DCs would have vastly different experiences to us. 22:24 - Bread.: Seeing as they'd exist in data. 22:24 - Bread.: Plus depending on what urges we decide upon they'd have different urges. 22:24 - Bread.: So we'd be making them in a very similar way, but with massively different results. 22:25 - Weirdo: Just realise something, what kind of senses we thinking of? like 5 senses as well as necessary data senses? Sounds like as much of an experiment, just not making them good... 22:25 - Bread.: What use would they have for our senses? 22:26 - Bread.: They can't see, smell, touch, taste or smell. 22:27 - Weirdo: I mean, give em abilities to use em 22:27 - Weirdo: Like give em cameras 22:28 - Bread.: Those are physical, though. 22:28 - Bread.: I thought we'd agreed they'd exist solely in data. 22:28 - Weirdo: I'd have thought they have ways of experiencing and interacting with the outer world as wel 22:28 - Weirdo: *well 22:28 - Weirdo: Not just stuck in hard drives 22:29 - Weirdo: And talking to people 22:29 - Bread.: Okay yeah, maybe let them see through public camera networks.

22:29 - Bread.: Or maybe sell 'sense balls,' floating metal balls containing apparatus for all senses, upload your AI friend and go for a walk. 22:30 - Bread.: Wouldn't really be useful for anything more than that. 22:30 - Weirdo: It's a crime not let them have pictures and see things 22:30 - Weirdo: Not to mention why wouldn't you let them 22:30 - Weirdo: It's not hard, 30 webcam and your done 22:31 - Bread.: Yeah that'd work. 22:32 - Bread.: But we'd also have to develop maybe more specialised apparatus to convert the other senses into digitized feeling. 22:32 - Bread.: Like, what would a feel be like saved to a computer? 22:33 - Weirdo: Rather than knowing where your body parts are, what network/computer you're in, also possibly where that is 22:33 - Weirdo: Also, I'm thinking being saved would feel like moving 22:33 - Weirdo: Or possibly teleporting 22:33 - Weirdo: Actually no, moving 22:33 - Weirdo: Slowly moving your body 22:34 - Bread.: Yeah, maybe they'd be able to sense the name/ip adress/other users. 22:34 - Bread.: And I dunno how much choice we'd get. 22:35 - Bread.: But I'd imagine it's just a shifting in conciousness, like the moment when you fall asleep and start dreaming but you just stay awake. 22:35 - Bread.: Anyway, I have to go take a shower and then go to bed. 22:35 - Bread.: We will talk about this more tomorrow. 22:35 - Bread.: It will happen. 22:36 - Weirdo: Hell yeah :D