12/7/12

A gunsmiths tale of 82G accuracy work

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Benton Gun Club > Club Matches > Rifle Matches > Old Friends Rimfire (Moderator: Travelor) > A gunsmiths tale of 82G accuracy work

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Travelor
Mode rator He ro Me m be r Posts: 528

A gunsmiths tale of 82G accuracy work

on: April 11, 2011, 08:12:59 am

The below comments are from Heffron Firearm Classics ( http://heffronfirearmclassics.com/default.aspx ) news and announcement postings ove time as they worked with the Kimber 82G rifles. Don't read the first few paragraphs and send your rifle in, read them all as they are no longer working on these rifles. 12/8/09: THE KIMBER 82 GOVERNMENT AND SOME LUCKY R&D: Have you ever read about the Kimber 82 Government? For those of you who do not know, this was a rifle that the government contracted several years ago. The idea was to replace some of the aging Winchester 52's and Remington 40x's. The CMP has them now. They are selling them for $600 each, which on the surface seems like a very good buy for a 10+ pound .22 target rifle with a bull barrel and decent trigger. The problem is the accuracy; believe it or not. I wouldn't have believed it. I have shot some Kimber 82's and they were very accurate. An 82 target grade rifle should be even better shouldn't it? Well, for some reason or reasons, it wasn't. I have read reports that have claimed rediculously poor accuracy of like 1 1/2" or 1" at 50 yards. I would expect that out of a lever action .22; not a tripod-heavy target rifle! I bought one of these from a local gun store and a couple of friends bought theirs directly from the CMP. I equiped mine with a Bausch and Lomb 12x with an adjustable objective. Before I went too far, I adjusted the trigger (I got it down to about 1 1/2 pounds) then cleaned and lubed the rifle. I double checked all of the stock screws to make sure they were tight. I stepped out back and got down to business. I was disappointed. I guess I can't say that I wasn't warned, but the accuracy was not anywhere near what it should have been. The best load was the Aguila 40 grain standard velociy and it shot a mediocre .66 at it's best. This is within what Kimber's guarantee was at the time, but c'mon; these rifles are huge and heavy and they are Kimbers. Can't they do better than that?
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My two friends came by with their newly acquired Kimber 82 Government rifles. The one rifle liked Federal Gold Match and would shoot them into a circle easily under 1/4" all day, but not by much. The other rifle did not really seem to like anything. Once in a while it would throw a group under 1 inch, but not very often. Considering the weight, size and pedigree of the rifle, even the best one should have done a little better. Immediately, I got curious. What is causing this? I read the blogs out there about this rifle. Nobody has seemingly unlocked the mystery. Everyone says the same thing: "It looks fine, everything looks fine, but it won't shoot". This was indeed a head-scratcher. I made a list of "things to try to make the Kimber 82G shoot". I knew that the answer was somewhere, but I was about to get lucky. It did not take long to unravel the mystery associated with these rifles and it's relatively easy to fix. Let's face it, I really did get lucky. There wasn't much R&D here. The answer is? The crown. Why a rifle as highly touted as this would have a sub-standard crown is anyone's guess, but it does. I have discovered that there are two problems with it: 1) the bore and the barrel's outside are not true to one another, so turning the crown on a lathe is an accuracy disaster waiting to happen and 2) the crown, as it is from the factory, was not cleaned as it should have been; it needs a good lapping. In other words, the crown lacks uniformity dimensionally and it also lacks friction uniformity. With all three Kimber Model 82 Government .22 Rifles the results were the same: after cutting a new crown using a bore-centered system followed by precision lapping group sizes consistantly ran .175 or less with their favorite ammos, depending on winds, bore cleanliness, shooter error etc. Some groups were literally one tiny little hole; period. Mystery solved. Isn't that something? I have to say that it kind of blows the mind that companies like Winchester and Remington had this figured out 60-70-80 years ago with 52's, 37's, 513's, 75's, 40x's etc. and then a modern-day target rifle is made with this issue. I really do like the Kimber now. It functions well. It does what it should do now. Why it was not done in the first place, who knows, but it was a simple fix. There are lessons to be learned in this for all rifles. I have read about people trying bedding, free floating, not free floating.......all kinds of stuff with these 82G's and to no avail, but not crowning because the crown always looked "O.K.". If you have a Kimber 82 Government with accuracy issues, contact us. This is something we can fix and the price is very reasonable at $50.00 plus shipping. This simple fix creates a whole new rifle! Until next time. Easy does it. -Mike Here I found a Kimber 82 Government. Overall, it was in pretty good shape and it had a set of rings on it. The trigger felt like it was a very crisp and clean 1 1/2 - 2 pounds. The price? $350.00. After some negotiation I left with it for $335.00. I thought this would be an interesting project for shooting, R&D etc.... and R&D expense of $335.00 does not happen every day. I jumped on it. Merry Christmas to me, Merry Christmas to me........ When we got home, driving in an ice storm, it was about 10:30 at night. I
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figured that I was already sleep deprived so a little more wouldn't hurt. I turned on the floodlights that aim "downrange" and I shot a few groups. All groups were 5 shots at 50 yards. These are the best groups: AMMUNITION Eley Target 40 grain Federal Gold Match Remington 36 grain Golden Bullet GROUP 1.22" 1.46" 1.19"

Well, not the best groups. In fact, for an 11 pound target rifle with the Kimber name on it, downright pitiful. I have read about this from too many people to count. It seems like 3 guys will have rifles like this and 1 will get an 82G that will shoot .1's - .2's. Several weeks ago, I wrote about a group of 3 of these rifles that did not shoot like they really should have and after some tuning, became tack-drivers. This is really a shame. The barrels are of very high quality, the trigger is pretty darn nice and the 82 action was a precision device. Now I realize that there are people saying "Glass bed the action" or "The barrel must be touching the stock" to which I say; "No". I did check to see if the action screws were tight. I did clean the barrel. As I have discussed before, old Winchester 52's, A, B, C, D.....you pick it, old Remington 40x's and 513T's would bore one-hole groups with zero bedding, barrel laying right in the stock. This is not the answer. The problem lies in the barrel, somewhere. I examined the crown under a microscope. It did not look very good. Quite honestly, it looked like it was cut with a dull tool and lapped with...........nothing. I recrowned it using the self-centering system, then lapped it. It was time to shoot more groups. Again, all groups were 5 shots each shot at 50 yards. These were the best groups: AMMUNITION Eley Target 40 grain Federal Gold Match Aguila Target 40 grain GROUP .43" .45" .34"

Obviously, much better, but there are still no trophies to be won with groups like this. There had to be another issue. By now, it was about 1:00 AM and I was tired and out of coffee. The time and come. I had to make more coffee. I cleaned the barrel, then ran a bore scope through it. I came up with 1 other issue. The throat. It had much lead stuck to it. I cleaned and cleaned and cleaned. I got the lead out so to speak. I went out and shot more groups. This time, because I suspected another issue, I used only Aguila Target 40 grain. I kept shooting groups one after the other. All groups were 5 shots at 50 yards. Here are the results: Group Group Group Group Group
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1 2 3 4 5

.19" .24" .39" .41" .44"

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A gunsmiths tale of 82G accuracy work

See the trend? I decided to clean the barrel again. I examined the chamber/throat area with the bore scope. No question in my mind, it was a little rough. It accumulated lead and quickly. It would accumulate it quickly enough that it was getting leaded before the first group was even complete. I lapped the throat. I used lead and various grades of diamond abrasive. I spent some time on this. I wanted it done well. After I was done, I shot some fowling shots, then examined the barrel again. There was no lead in the throat area. Excellent. It was time to shoot some groups, after all, it was now 2:45 AM. All groups were shot with Aguila 40 grain, 5 shots each and the distance again was 50 yards. Here are the results: Group Group Group Group Group 1: 2: 3: 4: 5: .12" .17" .15" .14" .11"!!

Bingo. Have I found the secret to these rifles? It is appearing so. It seems that we have a rifle that was intended to replace aging Winchester 52's and Remington 40x's and Kimber, for whatever reason neglected to do the fine finish work AKA: tuning, that a fine match rifle needs. The next day, in day light, I shot one group all day. I didn't measure it, but it was at least as small as any of these, possibly smaller. I read about people restocking these, bedding them, replacing the barrels all kinds of stuff. Folks, they need to be meticulously tuned. This is an awesome revelation. There will be a tuning package available soon for these. 4:00 AM, time to hit the hay. 7/14/2010: KIMBER 82 GOVERNMENT DISCONTINUED: After MUCH discussion with HFC employees, HFC customers and taking our experiences into account, I have made the decision to discontinue services on the Kimber 82 Government Rifle. This was not an easy decision and I regret having to do it. I have many reasons however. After tuning a large number of these, we have found the following: -VARYING THROATING: Before serial number 4,000 the throats were not correct at all. After that, they appeared to be acceptable. We have discovered that it's not so much that they were cut correctly after #4,000, it appears that more of them were cut correctly after #4,000. We are discovering chamber and throat depths that are all over the map. -FUSSY WITH AMMUNITION: While Eley Standard Velocity HP and Eley Tenex are typically the best shooters in these rifles, some of them are VERY picky and it can be maddening to find the right ammo. -MACHINE REST vs. STANDARD: Before shipping, we check these in a machine rest. They do meet our standards or they don't ship. We are finding that the TYPE of rest makes a larger-than-normal difference with these rifles. We have customers who say the rifle will not group, after we just finished shooting it! For whatever reason, these rifles are very critical about WHAT they are rested on. How a 12 pound rifle can be this fussy, I will never know. We want consistency. We demand it. Consistency keeps our customers happy. I have many customers that are happy with these. I have some
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A gunsmiths tale of 82G accuracy work

customers that are not happy with these. We are unable to overcome some of these issues, due to the original manufacturing inconsistencies associated with these rifles. It is for this reason, that we will no longer offer service for the Kimber 82 Government. I don't WANT to do this, but the issues associated with these rifles are often too much to overcome without spending unrealistic amounts of money to correct them. We will continue to offer support for the rifles we have out there. Please communicate with us regarding any issues. KIMBER 82 GOVERNMENT IMPROVEMENTS: It is amazing how there is never a dull moment. Am I hacking on my personal Kimbers? Yes. Have I bought more Kimbers? Yes. I wish to get to the bottom of this. We have been examining fired bullets to see what is happening. On the Kimbers that throw funny groups, we have observed that the rifling is not parallel with the bullet. This happens when the bullet is not entering the rifling in a true fashion. The bullet still spins, nose wobbling the whole way, then it leaves the barrel to wobble itself right into a wobbly group. We are working on a throating system that we can hopefully machine in all of the Kimber 82 G's in a uniform fashion that will eliminate this problem. A while back, we found several Kimber 82 G's that had the same kind of throat and these throats worked well so we proclaimed that the "post S/N 4,000" was the way to go. Now we have seen several that vary so much I am unsure as to how things could vary this much within one state, let alone one factory. Currently, the research looks promising, with some of the lessons learned from the dedicated 22 long rifle forcing cone bleeding into this project. I will keep you posted. KIMBER 82 GOVERNMENT: The mystery continues, BUT an interesting discovery has recently been uncovered. I will warn you up front; this almost seems too simple, but I believe and have at least semi-proven that there is something to this. I took a Kimber 82 Government that was recently acquired. It shot groups in the 1 " range. When fired without the stock, by clamping the barreled action in a specially designed vice, groups were in the inch range. First, I pillar bedded it. Upon completion, it shot groups in the 1 " range. (Hey..If the screws are tight in a wood stock; you have a receiver-tostock "crush fit" so to speak and for a rimfire, its not going to get much better than that.) The barrel was tuned. The old crown (which looked like hell) was removed and our HFC AccuCrown was put in its place. The throat was inspected for uniformity and was found to be acceptable. The throat was polished. The entire bore was lapped. The barrel was then pressurecleaned and then lubed. After break in, the barrel was fired outside of the stock, by clamping the barrel in the specially designed vice. 5 shots at 50 yards showed a 1 hole group. The stock was reinstalled. The groups were then around 1 inch, much like it was before, although slightly better. The NEXT step is where the "learning experience" comes into play. I did not see this happening and I have theories which I believe to be very viable concerning this. While the barreled action was in the stock, I tied it to with sandbags. I used tie-down straps that ratchet. going to move. This is how we test them before they result? A one-hole group. Well, I can only come to 1
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the LEAD SLED along This rifle was NOT leave here. The of 2 conclusions:
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1) I, and some of my customers are crappy shots (which I dont buy.) Or 2) There is some other thing at play here. Something involving Geometry and/or Physics. Here we go The first thing I will mention is the height of the rifle in the forearm area. When comparing it to the height of a beavertail Remington 40X or beavertail Winchester 52, this thing is TALL. So lets say the rifle is tipped while resting by .01" under fire, while the bullet is in the barrel. Performing the measurements between a beavertail forearmed 52D and a Kimber 82G (regarding height from the bottom of the forearm to the center of the bore) our hypothetical .01" tip under fire would create a shooting error of around of an inch at 50 yards. On the Kimber, due to the increased height, would create a shooting error of around 1 1/8" at 50 yards. This is the first theory. Now, the second theory. If you examine the forearms of many, many target rifles, the bottom of the forearm is parallel with the barrel. Not so with the Kimber. When you shoot, unless the rifle is strapped into place, it WILL move backwards somewhat. It also will move backwards WHILE the bullet is still traveling down the barrel. As the rifle slides backwards, its original sighting height changes, because its forearm is angled in relation to the barrel. So unless you, as a shooter are able to have it slide rearward the EXACT same amount every time you pull the trigger, your elevation will change from shot to shot. Think about it. Measure it. It is actually quite surprising. So, what we have is a tall forearm to barrel relationship with a narrow-tipsy forearm that is not parallel with the barrel. What a combination. It certainly explains why they shoot here on the LEAD SLED and why they dont on some peoples sandbags, including my own. Quite frankly (and I hate saying this because I try to avoid stock-work like I try to avoid the dentist.No offence John W.) But, the forearm really needs to be, at the very least made so its not so tall. A little width wouldnt hurt either. Maybe with some milled aluminum? I will continue working on this. Concerning throat dimensions, I have found 3 different throats on these. They are not random in dimension, they are just 3 different match-style throats. The potential still exists with these rifles, but some modifications that are seemingly needed were not entirely predictable in nature. SURPRISE!! Again, no "Black Magic" or "Zen" here, purely Geometry and Physics. I will most certainly keep you posted. KIMBER DROPPED: As you may have read, I have been losing hair over the Kimber 82 Government project. Not too long ago, I wrote about some new throating that saved otherwise poor-shooting rifles. Since then, 3 more have come through. Out of the 3 rifles, 1 worked better, the other 2 were virtually unchanged. Crap!!! For a company our size, we have invested massive money in this project. It is a very sad thing. These rifles have great actions, and so on. Some of these, despite our best efforts and research beyond research, struggle to
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shoot as well as a Marlin Model 60 Semi-Auto. We have discovered that the "hopeless" ones have barrels that measure more along the lines of a 22-250 rather than a 22 LR. Rather than the 1 turn in 16" they SHOULD have, we have found some with 1 turn in 17.5" and other variations. That can't help any. How rifles can vary this much from sample to sample simply amazes me. No wonder they went broke. I really don't mean to rail on a single company, but if I had a dollar for every Kimber rifle (new or old) with an accuracy problem, I would be a very wealthy man, (Nah. I wouldn't be wealthy; I would just have more classic guns!) I have seen centerfires and rimfires that are poor shooters for the money spent. I have also seen some Kimber rifles that shoot great. The variations in accuracy are virtually endless. My point? After investing deeply in R & D for the Kimber 82 G project, it seems that right when we think we have it figured out, a new batch of serial numbers is released by the CMP and along with that, a whole new batch of problems. It is unfortunate, but we are officially abandoning the Kimber 82 G project and will no longer offer service for them. I sincerely apologize, but how can anyone keep up with this?

Last Edit: April 11, 2011, 08:18:44 am by Travelor Ge orge Tone y No one care s how m uch you k now until the y k now how m uch you care .

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