INTERFACES

Ramachandra Guha
in Conversation with
S Manikutty and Anil Gupta

S Manikutty: After doing a doctorate in Management, how did you become a historian? Ramachandra Guha: My doctorate was not in Management. IIM Calcutta had developed a Fellow Programme in Social Sciences away from the management stream unlike the conventional FPM which involves two years of course work in management, followed by a thesis. IIM Calcutta has always had a very strong social science tradition. There was a special stream comprising economics, sociology, and regional development, i.e., geography. It still exists, but they dont often get good students. My doctorate was from a management institute but the management component of my education was minimal. S Manikutty: What was the thesis on? Ramachandra Guha: My thesis was on the study of the conflict between the peasants and the state over forest resources in the Himalayas. It started as a sociological analysis of the Chipko movement. But then it became a long range historical study of conflicts over the commons. S Manikutty: In your book, India after Gandhi, you have outlined many ideas of India. Which one is your idea of India? Ramachandra Guha: My preference is for the constitutional ideathe one contained in the Indian Constitution. This upholds democracy with pluralism, that is, the right to vote, the right to free movement, the right to free association, the right to live anywhere in India, the right to speak any language of India, the right to practice the faith of ones choice or follow no faith at all. I think, the Constitution guarantees all of that. So, it is a pluralist democracychallenged, however, by the idea that India should be a Hindu theocratic state on the right, and a Marxist revolutionary state, on the left. A final idea of India is that there is no India at all, and that we are actually 25 nations artificially held together. So, my idea of India is the liberal plural constitutional India. S Manikutty: How do you compare this with Sunil Khilnanis..

THEMES Indianness Value System Gandhian Philosophy Management Education Entrepreneurship

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Anil Gupta: If you look at Ramachandra Guha: Our views are My idea of India is Shankaracharya who travelled into very similar. I would agree with four parts of India, and understood Khilnani that Tagore, Gandhi, and the liberal plural the pulse of each one of them, and so Nehru, despite their differences constitutional India. to say, required that one had to go within, were the three visionaries four dhams to fulfil ones dharma. who realized that we could not constitute India except as a plural federal democracy and in Would not that create a notion of oneself with what was called India or Bharat? that sense it is that idea of India that I uphold. S Manikutty: What Khilnani talks about is at once an old idea and also a relatively new idea. He talks about the Aryans coming and creating the basic idea of Aryavat and extending it downwardsthe Mauryan empire. But they were not looking beyond their own kingdoms. Truly, the idea of India is one which really came after the British overpowered everybody and everybody was in the same misery. So everybody had the awakening that we belong to one nation. Ramachandra Guha: I think, there is a sacred geography that the Hindus share with the Catholics. They have Rome while the Hindus have various pilgrim spots. But that is purely a cultural construct. It has no political meaning. If one is going from Karnataka to Badrinath, he/she would be passing through 25 different states. Thus it has no political meaning. I think, the uniqueness of Gandhi was that he bypassed that sacred geography. Otherwise it would have created polarization between Hindus and non-Hindus. By the time Shankracharya was here in the 8th century AD, there were virtually no Muslims, Christians, Parsees, or Sikhs. What Gandhi did was to create an alternate idea of India which was based on a modern democratic idea of citizenship implying that the people who inhabit this territory can speak the language of their choice as well as follow the faith of their choice. He said choosing a particular language or religion was a private issue. He wanted to make sure that Hindus and non-Hindus remain united.

Ramachandra Guha: I would put it slightly differently. I would say, I disagree with those who feel that there was always an India, because I dont think so. I think there were many different kingdoms and fiefdoms in the pre-British period. Even the Mughal empire at its zenith did not control more than 40 per cent of what is now called India. We, in South India, had never even had the remotest whiff of the Mughal empire. The British gave an artificial unity to India. They did it artificially and accidently through their own strategic and commercial motives. It S Manikutty: The interesting thing is that he was both was Gandhis great contribution to endow the people of religious and secular at the same time. He was never far this territory who had been given an artificial unity, with from his Ram and Gita and was very clearly a Hindu, a moral and political purpose. He showed how we could even though he chanted Quran verses in his prayer meetcome together despite differences of language and reli- ings. Yet nobody thought of him as a representative of the Hindus at any stage of imaginagion and build a nation that was inclusive and diverse. I think, the most I disagree with those who tion. Everybody looked up to him as an Indian. remarkable thing about Indian nafeel that there was always tionhood, as defined by Tagore and Ramachandra Guha: Indianness Gandhi, is that it does not demonize an India. I think, there would be a better term than Hinduany other nationalism. Pakistani nawere many different ness. You are right about Gandhi. tionalism is against Indian nationalkingdoms and fiefdoms in After all he was assassinated by a ism; Polish nationalism is against Hindu who felt he was not Hindu the pre-British period. Russian nationalism; British nationenough though he lived and died a alism, historically, was pitted against Even the Mughal empire at Hindu with the name of Ram on his France. But the greatness of Gandhi its zenith did not control lips. Though he was clear in his perwas that he could oppose the British, sonal faith, he did not impose that more than 40 per cent of but not demonize the British. His best personal faith on others of different friend could be an English priest what is now called India. faith. One of the most interesting and C F Andrews.

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little known aspect of Gandhi is that one of his followers was an atheist called Gora who was a social worker from Andhra Pradesh. We know about his interactions with the Christians and Muslims, but he was broadminded enough to incorporate an atheist as a Gandhian. S Manikutty: But what is the essence of this Indianness. How would you define Indianness?

Ramachandra Guha: I think, the greatness of Gandhis Indianness lies in its not having a clear, definable essence. Because once you pin down nationalism to a religion, a language, a territory or an enemy, there is a problem. Let me refer you to the American politicial philosopher Samuel Huntingdon who is very worried about the Hispanic immigraRamachandra Guha: Absolutely. I tion into America because he felt that totally agree with you. I would just it would dilute the essence of what it add two things. One is that Gandhis means to be an American. I think the greatness of Gan- ideas were, as you say, transcending the national bordhi is that he refused to reduce nationalism to a single ders and having affiliation with members of the human essence because we are too diverse a country. Take some- family wherever they were. I think it has two very imone like Sonia Gandhidespite all the efforts by her portant roots. One is his experience in Africa when he opponents to call her a foreigner, no one really thinks lived for 23 years, in another continent not just in anshe is a foreigner. We may oppose Sonia Gandhis poli- other country. The other is actually the influence of cies or her leadership, but no one opposes her because Tagore on him. I think that Tagore made him a true she was born in Italy. We all accept her as an Indian. universalist. During the First World War, Tagore gave a Sonia Gandhi could not have become series of lectures on nationalism. the President of America because she They were delivered in Japan and the What Gandhi did was to was not born there, or the Prime MiUS warning the people against the nister of Israel because she is not a create an alternate idea of European style nationalism. That inJew. So, I think, the greatness of Ganfluenced Gandhi a lot. You can see India which was based on dhi was that he refused to pin down this in the letters between Gandhi and a modern democratic idea Tagore, because Gandhi comes back Indianness to an essence, because once you take an essentialist apof citizenship implying to India at that time. proach in such a large diverse counBut there is a very interesting exthat the people who try, you begin to divide people. change between these two great Ininhabit this territory can dians on the relevance of the English Anil Gupta: He brought the element speak the language of their language. While Gandhi said that Inof universal citizenship in the Indiandians should not use English, Tagore choice as well as follow ness. By being an Indian, your idenfelt that it is important to communitity is not just that of belonging to a the faith of their choice. cate with the world too; otherwise we nation state. He never advocated or
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The most remarkable thing about Indian nationhood, as defined by Tagore and Gandhi, is that it does not demonize any other nationalism. Pakistani nationalism is against Indian nationalism; Polish nationalism is against Russian nationalism; British nationalism, historically, was pitted against France. But the greatness of Gandhi was that he could oppose the British, but not demonize the British.

justified commitment to a territorial India alone, but a conceptual, inclusive or philosophical India, if one may say so. He always talked about the loyalty to basic human values (in which he synthesized Buddhism, Ruskin, Hinduism, Jainism, Catholicism, etc.). In that sense, the essence of Indianess lies in human values and not in nationalism. He was aware of the hazards of nationalism as he had seen in the Second World War and he never nurtured them. We are committed to the physical boundaries and ones loyalty to the country is judged by his/her ability to subscribe to the values which are cherished within those boundaries. Human values cannot be judged within those physical boundaries. Dont you think so?

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would be isolated. Gandhi conceded the point. The influence of Tagore on Gandhi is actually greatly under-appreciated. Particularly, with regard to what Anil said, about transcending national boundaries, Tagore had a great influence on Gandhi.

Anil Gupta: There is one more instance of influence. When Gandhi gave his statement about the earthquake being a consequence of sins that people in Bihar had committed, Tagore reprimanded him. Gandhi went to Shantiniketan, had a long dialogue with Tagore, and at the end they said, we agree, but we dont agree because Gandhi was not convinced. He remained in a dilemma. What Tagore did was to sow a seed of doubt in him. This way he was also trying to separate personal morality from social morality. Tagore later called him Mahatma and Gandhi became Mahatma Gandhi. S Manikutty: You have made an assertion that whenever a country has been formed on religion, it has never led to unification, even though it is actually supposed to do so. In fact, it has always led to disintegration. For instance, Pakistan and some other countries probably tend to become inward-looking. It was not the case with Indians. Though they were also inward-looking in some sense, they didnt feel threatened by it. Who can really destroy our essence, let them all come. Like Gandhi said Let the wind blow..Many of them had to keep their windows shut. They did not want to have the contamination. Ramachandra Guha: Even the quote of keeping my windows open comes from the Tagore-Gandhi exchange. It was Tagore who told him to keep his windows open. There was this inner confidence in those Indians. Gandhi and Tagore were never insecure about their Indianness. That is why they could embrace the rest of the world. Those of us who are insecure tend to shout the loudest about Indianness calling someone else a deshdrohi or a traitor. That has always been the case. But to add to your ex-

The greatness of Gandhi was that he refused to pin down Indianness to an essence, because once you take an essentialist approach in such a large diverse country, you begin to divide people.

amples of states based on religion, I think one state that is going to face more and more problems is Israel. Because they have a large and growing Arab population; if they insist on identifying themselves as Jewish, it would create this kind of division. I think, we are fortunate not to have gone down that line.

S Manikutty: Basically our plurality in itself is our strength rather than a weakness, because nobody can identify with anything. At least, we have something to identify with, i.e., commonality.

Gandhi and never insecure about their Indianness. That is why they could embrace the rest of the world. Those of us who are insecure tend to shout the loudest about Indianness.calling someone else a deshdrohi or a traitor.

Ramachandra Guha: When you say the Christians have their Bible or the Muslims have their Quran, I think Indians have the Indian Constitution. We do have a text and the text says that regardless of what language you speak, what religion you practice, or where you live in India, you have the same rights. There has been an attempt to define Indianness in terms of not just religion but language too. Recall the riots in Tamil Nadu in 1965 against the imposition of Hindi. That is a very important moment in the evolution of Indian nationhood. Today the South Indians accept Hindi when it comes to them through the Bombay films or the TV serials. But they would not accept the Central Government imposing Hindi on them. So we are open to cultural exchange, open to learning somebody elses language, but we dont like anything enforced on us. The American way where to be American you must learn English, you cant speak Spanish is not our way. Thats something which is the bequest of people like Gandhi and Tagore were Tagore. S Manikutty: If you look at Indias development now, do you really think there is a basic problem that it is moving forward economically? There is actually no question about that, but if you see the underlying value systems and the development of character, it is really not taking off in that sense. For instance, I didnt go to a particularly great school. But all the teachers were very devoted. Their
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value systems were absolutely priceless. They were very clear as to what we should do. Today, that is not always the case, starting with the teachers to the students and everybody else. If you look at the underlying values and the way they understand, it seems to be a rootless growth which is taking place. Do you agree and does it worry you?

Ramachandra Guha: Indeed, it worries me. Again, if you go back to the period of the National Movement, the remarkable thing about that movement was that so many millions of Indians imbibed a spirit that transcended the boundary of ones personal self, caste, family, religion, and linguistic group. That selflessness seems to have disappeared from the large sections of our society. Either we have embraced once again what was there before, which was the particularities of caste and family and village (if you look at our politics, the handing down of political party from father to son) or we have embraced a kind of aggressive western hedonism and individualism. Me, myself that kind of an attitude which you might see in some of your students. I think that is a loss. We are doing well in many parts of our society but the kind of public spiritedness, a sense of sharing, of solidarity which was so visible among us not just the teachers and doctors, but even among the politicians and the civil servants is disappearing. We are facing some kind of crisis of values.

We are doing well in many parts of our society but the kind of public spiritedness, a sense of sharing, of solidarity which was so visible among us not just the teachers and doctors, but even among the politicians and the civil servants is disappearing. We are facing some kind of crisis of values.

eration or a little younger than that? We dont really bring up the children in the way they should develop.

Ramachandra Guha: I think this is a product of a complex society undergoing a complex journey. Ours is a traditional society becoming a modern society, a feudal polity becoming a democratic polity, a village-based civilization becoming increasingly an urban civilization. In the course of this journey, it is natural to have dislocations, breakdown of families, pressures on parents to work more, to work harder and hence to neglect children. At the same time, many aspects of the social changes taking place are to be welcomed. For example, we dont want a reversal to the caste system and the practice of untouchability.

Anil Gupta: Going back to freedom struggle, one of the unique aspects of the Gandhian experiment was that you could participate in the freedom struggle by burning the foreign made clothes in your street. There was no need for you to go to a particular point or place to protest. Of course, it was very important to understand that you buy (foreign made cloth) and burn. You were not supposed to loot and burn. He was very clear about following the principles of market autonomy. But look at it today, as you mentioned, you have to protest at the Boat Club in New Delhi. You even have centralized arena of articulation. Why should it be necessary for me to go to the Boat Club to protest? Why cant I protest at my own S Manikutty: Who is to be blamedthe teachers or the place and yet be heard? Today you are not likely to be heard. Therefore this tendency to cenparents? For instance, our parents tralize a lot of space which Gandhi used to talk to us, tell stories, and inOurs is a traditional had decentralized. Dont you think still certain values in us. Gandhis this is a tension of the modern state mother used to tell him the stories of society becoming a we need not have to go through? Ramayana, Harishchandra, etc., modern society, a feudal which shaped him. These days the Ramachandra Guha: This is a very polity becoming a parents dont do that the same way. important point. We have to decenThey devote some quality time but democratic polity, a tralize. To make ourselves heard that is like you say, nothing much one village-based civilization now we have to go to the centre. The way or the other. Because they thembecoming increasingly an Salt Satyagraha was far away from selves dont have the time to develop. Delhifrom Ahmedabad to Dandi. urban civilization. So, they dont develop their children And yet it shook people in Delhi. either. Is this a problem of our genVIKALPA VOLUME 33 NO 1 JANUARY - MARCH 2008

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Today, in Gujarat, you have to go to Gandhinagar to protest; in Madhya Pradesh, you have to go to Bhopal. Anil Gupta: Why shouldnt this be thought about as a part or aspect of our polity where we need to do some correction in the nation building process?

Ramachandra Guha: It may be the fault of our institutions. Our political elite is so detached from the ordinary peoples lives, confined in their fortresses, in their capitals that we have to go there in order to reach them. If you look at Gandhi, the way he walked among the people made the difference There is now a lack of feeling and sensitivity among our political leaders.

Our political elite is so detached from the ordinary peoples lives, confined in their fortresses, in their capitals that we have to go there in order to reach them. If you look at Gandhi, the way he walked among the people made the difference

places do get heard. But how many people realize that? There are 170 districts today by the assessment of the Home Ministry of the central government where the writ of the government does not run. And, the growth in these numbers has happened in the last 10-15 years in which the growth has also taken place. So while the economic growth has received so much of attention, the growth of the regions beyond the purview of the central government, affected by the Leftist violence (due to continued poverty and neglect) has not received this kind of attention.

Anil Gupta: It is in the media too. Look at any TV channel. They will be addressing the so-called intellectuals within the central capital. There is something in the whole society. On the one hand, economic development is generating more decentralizing influence, with state governments taking decisions without referring to the centre. That is one of the positive sides of the economic development. On the other hand, politically, we are getting centralized. Every Party high command is an important consideration now. Is there a tension there? Ramachandra Guha: I think, the media is a very important force, which can play a positive role and in fact, has historically played a positive role in India. However, it is now undergoing a crisis. The major papers and TV channels have been taken over by a cult of glamour and celebrity. There is very little good reporting going on. Many of the issues in the countryside are not covered at all, e.g., the Naxalite insurgency in Central India. Anil Gupta: There are about 170 districts affected by Naxalism not reported by any newspaper. Places like Nandigram, Singur and many other

Ramachandra Guha: Nandigram was reported because it was so close to Kolkata and because of the contradiction between the Left Front policies in West Bengal and elsewhere. But actually because of Naxalite insurgency, countless people have been affected, in fact, much more than in Nandigram. In Nandigram, some 10,000 people were displaced but in Chhatisgarh, 200,000 people might have been displaced. But no reporter is covering it. So, I think, we should not let the media so easily off the hook. They are not doing their job.

S Manikutty: I talked earlier about the deterioration in values and economic development taking place without the simultaneous link or balance. This can have two kinds of explanaThe media is a very tions which are very different and important force, which have different implications. One of them is particularly the economic libcan play a positive role and in fact, has historically eralization1990 onwards, when the GDP started rising much faster and played a positive role in people got the opportunities to beIndia. However, it is now come materially well off; there was a lot of mobility everywhere, not only undergoing a crisis. The in the top, but in case of everyone. major papers and TV The villages that you see today are channels have been taken very different from the villages I have over by a cult of glamour seen in the 1990s. The alternate explanation is that, it and celebrity. There is is basically in Indira Gandhis time very little good reporting that things took a different turn, because she did two things. Firstly, she going on. never really thought of an ethical
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kind of framework, and secondly, she centralized everything. The party disintegrated at the lower level and simply went to pieces. There was no one who could command anything at the lower level because everything was decided by the top. So, the non-responsiveness started from there. These two together formed a deadly combination as everybody could do what they pleased so long as they had a comfortable equation with the top.

Ramachandra Guha: Very true. In terms of the deterioration of the institutions, Indira Gandhi has to take a large share of the blame. What she did to the Congress Party was imitated by others. She and her colleagues also damaged the bureaucracy by creating over-committed civil servants and a committed judiciary. Luck- Anil Gupta: Although after 1980, when she came back, ily, in case of committed judges, she failed, but in the she changed a bit. case of committed civil service, she Ramachandra Guha: But because of succeeded. There must be a wall beher essential insecurity as a human tween the executive and the legislaFor all those leaders like, being, she could not trust others in ture. Civil servants, district judges, Patel, Rajaji, Azad, the Congress Party. There was someand irrigation engineers cannot and Rajendra Prasad, Nehru, thing deeply insecure about her in the should not be identified with parties sense that Gandhi, Nehru, and Patel Jayaprakash Narain, or politicians. No public institution could trust people. The insecurity led can function on the basis of nepotism Kriplani, Kamaladevi to the centralization of power in her and favouritism. But the system has Chattopadhyay there party. been corrupted by the politicians; were so many remarkable they all have their favourite IAS ofS Manikutty: You also mentioned ficers. leaders below the level of that one of the explanations as to how Gandhi politics was a India developed on a different path, Anil Gupta: To be just a devils adreally is to do with the fact that it has vocate, there was one thing that she quest, a journey of a number of visionaries at the top. did right. If you look at her respect understanding of the Jawaharlal Nehru was not the only for scientific and technical leadership people they were living one whereas Pakistan does not have and the access and the autonomy that anybody of that caliber or greatness. she gave to them to be able to take with and leading. Then what constitutes the essence of momentous decisions affecting this a visionary, how is it that these vicountry and its geopolitical aspirations in the contemporary world. You can trace it to the sionaries developed at that time? It is a remarkable pedecisions that she took. Whether it was agriculture, nu- riod because we produced so many great leaders in such clear physics or space. Look at any sector of science and a short time, neither before nor later. technology. I remember, when after the 1971 War, beRamachandra Guha: I think, they were all nurtured by cause of the Sevenfleet that had come to the Bay of BenGandhi. They were all given their space. These people gal at least they were threatening to she took the grew over a period of time. Just as Gandhi was openscientists off the planes going to the US for various kinds minded, willing to learn from Tagore, Nehru was an of training. The best period of Indian science was when aristocrat from Cambridge. But then he mingled with she disconnected with the West and people had to be on the peasants; he travelled in eastern UP and in South their own. I would say that period of isolation gave treIndia. Rajaji was a Brahmin but he also declassed himmendous confidence to people in the scientific commuself. They had many years of preparation. Jinnah never nity at least to commit mistakes and learn from them.
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Ramachandra Guha: She definitely had several positive contributions. Apart from the nurturing of scientific institutions you mentioned, her contributions to the expansion of rural credit were also commendable. The agricultural boom was possible only because of the nationalization of banks. I would like to add one more thing. I think in many ways she had this inclusive spirit that Gandhi and Nehru had. She was not a Hindu, neither was she a North Indian. She could communicate with the people in the South; she could communicate with the minorities in the North East. In that sense, she transcended these limitations of caste and region and was an inclusive Indian.

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moved outside his law chamber and his political party. He could never assimilate with ordinary people, travel in a 2nd class compartment, go to the villages. I think, for all those leaders like, Patel, Rajaji, Azad, Rajendra Prasad, Nehru, Jayaprakash Narain, Kriplani, Kamaladevi Chattopadhyay there were so many remarkable leaders below the level of Gandhi politics was a quest, a journey of understanding of the people they were living with and leading.

Anil Gupta: One has to be fair to Pakistan. There were a lot of reformists even in Pakistan. In fact, Akhtar Hamid Khan and many other reformists did admirable social reconstruction work in Pakistan. All said and done, the fact is that their per capita income was higher than ours, let us not deny that. In fact, the per capita income of Pakistan for most part of history has remained higher than ours. So they did not do too badly. They did not do too badly even in terms of entrepreneurial process. It is true that Anil Gupta: Economic development is only one aspect. even today they have much larger feudal gentry, with There might have been one per cent extra development. people who have 500-1000 acres. What happens in Bihar Most of the time what we need to build upon are the happens there in Punjab even in fertile areas. Whereas opportunities. There were opportunities for us to supin India, fertile area land reforms have taken place rea- port Bangladesh and Pakistan, to contribute to their insonably well except in some parts of Bihar. You may stitutes, and get students from there. Something that is say Pakistan may not have had great visionaries but it is happening now should have happened much earlier. We not true that their economic situation and their institu- should have invited their youth to come and study in tions were totally corrupted. Otherwise how would they our institutions. Indian greatness cannot survive in achieve so much of development that they could sur- vacuum if countries around us are collapsing. We have pass India in terms of their per capita income. It is true failed in recognizing our Gandhian essence. that the situation today is totally depressing. The miliRamachandra Guha: This proposal could have come 30 tary rulers in some sense or the other have used instituyears ago. Even now it is not too late. Why doesnt a tions for their narrow interest, as it is happening proposal come that in every IIM and currently. It is a pity but I dont think IIT, 5-10 seats a year will be allotted the people per se in Pakistan are any Indian greatness cannot to SAARC countries on a propordifferent from the Indians. Their assurvive in vacuum if tional basis? I think it will add enorpirations, their ability to deliver mously to the image of these countries around us are things, are the same. If you go to the institutions. US or the UK, Pakistani entreprecollapsing. We have failed neurs there are no different from us. Anil Gupta: It will immediately genin recognizing our Dont you think so? erate tremendous respect from comGandhian essence. mon people who want a fair and

Pakistan may not have had great visionaries but it is not true that their economic situation and their institutions were totally corrupted. Otherwise how would they achieve so much of development that they could surpass India in terms of their per capita income. It is true that the situation today is totally depressing.

Ramachandra Guha: I think, such institutions, like the IIMs and the IITs were not created in Pakistan. There were isolated visionaries like Akhtar Hamid Khan who, however, was influenced by Gandhi. But they did not have the numerous institutions which nurtured so many good entrepreneurs, scientists, and lawyers in India. Somehow tertiary education was very badly neglected in Pakistan. You wont find a single good college except may be the Lahore University of Management Sciences which is new. Thats all. In contrast, we have a reasonably good number of medical and management colleges. So, I think, our professional class is much deeper. In Pakistan, you need to be a feudal elites child, like Imran Khan or Benazir Bhutto, to go to Oxford. In India, even an ordinary person can become an entrepreneur, e.g., Dhirubhai Ambani. In that sense, social mobility has been much greater here.

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the students that profit maximization equal opportunity. Here we are talkWe are pushing our is the motive and equations and all ing about looking at the world in difthat tell you how to achieve it. Eveferent ways. Harvard brought people students too much into rybody talks of production. Even from all over the world and indoctrianalytics and not letting Organizational Behaviour, really nated them. Many other institutions them deal with speaking, is a team building exercise did that. I think now India has time uncontrolled chaotic but still it is not meant for anything to create or craft elite mindset which builds nation in a participative, inclu- situation which is what the other than profit maximization. They are all meant for better organizational sive, and entrepreneurial manner, Indian society is all performance. They cannot be reconand not just in South East Asia but aboutchaos and action. ciled with more nonlinear thinking even in Africa. Chinese are going to where you can incorporate in them Africa and almost taking over the Somehow, we are not the ideas of thinking differently and entire infrastructural development. A letting them see the getting a holistic picture. This would superpower must have the quality of unpredictability, the involve teaching of humanitiesnot relationships and decisions to create just literature and history but even a superpower. And what are we douncertainty, and the performing art. Why not have one ing with Africa, South East Asia, or opportunities which may course where everyone is made to South Asia? We are not contributing arise out of disorder. learn drama and how to act. When as much to the creation of common you try to act as someone else, you public good. We have some of the best academic institutions in the world. We are still get- really imbibe what is meant by getting the emotions and ting people who can apply their way through in private try to see the others point of view. Even music or any of institutions in India. So, we are getting the upwardly the fine arts can become a part of the curriculum. Do you think we can develop better leaders and not necesmobile meritocratic youth of various countries. sarily better managers by these methods? S Manikutty: Coming back to management education, which is our business here, I am just looking at the way Ramachandra Guha: There are two aspects to this. One in which we are training our managers. They are some- is a deeper understanding of the society and polity in times very bright and innovative, but by the time they which they live in which is what this ISPE course* does. get through these two years of Post-Graduation in Man- The other is cultivation of the emotional and assertive agement, not much of it remains. They are trained to parts of your intelligence and not just the analytical or think in a very incremental and linear fashion. This pre- quantitative parts. There is an excellent institute in vents them from being innovative. They would make Bangalore called the Indian Institute of Information good managers; they would know how to overhaul sys- Technology. They asked me to address their students. I tems, find what is wrong etc., but they would not be wanted to know what I should speak about because they able to provide a visionary leadership because they stop are even more focused than your MBA graduates they thinking out of the box. They really do not have incen- are into information technology, code cracking- thats tives to take the kind of risks that are involved in mak- all. I told them that if they ask me, I would tell them to read more history, sociology, politics. ing new type of things. I am not The greatest achievements of the hutalking about the 15-20 managers The strength lies not in man mind are reflected in music, litwho in any case do that. I am talking being great but in seeing erature, fine arts, and pure science. about the vast majority. greatness in others. From Try and cultivate at least an appreThe underlying sense of values is that point of view, we ciation for music, literature, and arts. again a big question mark. I personYou cannot do everything. Maybe ally think that many of the problems should bring the arise because of our emphasis on Gandhian essence to analytical abilities being developed * Indian Social and Political Environment, a first management education. continuously. So, on day one, we tell year course for which Ramachandra Guha had
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Ramachandra Guha: It is a very narrow functional productionist view of Anil Gupta: Prof. Manikutty raised a very valid point. There is a book, Abol Tabol, written excellence. by Sukumar Ray, father of Satyajit Ray. It is a book on S Manikutty: Many people talk about the typical absurd, nonsensical poetry which has been read by alIndianness which is reflected everywhere including our most the entire generation of Bengalis. Im also using it management education. They talk about people basically in a Second Year course. My feeling is that you are absolutely right that we are pushing our students too much being autocratic and feudalistic by nature. This is a part into analytics and not letting them deal with uncon- of the Indian culture. They are probably more prone to trolled chaotic situation which is what the Indian soci- corruption. There is corruption everywhere but here it ety is all aboutchaos and action. Somehow, we are not is of a different magnitude altogether. Then there is this letting them see the unpredictability, the uncertainty, chalta hai attitude which has been quoted by everybody which basically means that we dont want excellence. and the opportunities which may arise out of disorder. We are quite satisfied with things as long as they dont The strength lies not in being great but in seeing greatharm our work. There is also an inherent lack of disciness in others. From that point of view, we should bring the Gandhian essence to management education. The pline which was observed by the Singapore Prime Mingreatness of Gandhi was that he saw greatness in others ister when he visited India. He didnt say India lacks it, and continued to nurture it no matter how difficult it but certainly meant that when he said that Singapore was. You said earlier that he brought a lot of outstand- has it when he was asked why India and Singapore deing leaders. Today we are not generating a spirit of lead- veloped so differently when India probably was ahead ership and a managerial profile where you say your job of Singapore in 1950. Are these really the underlying cultural factors in India and its institutions? is not just to be great yourself. Your job is to see greatness in others. How do you build up on that? How do Ramachandra Guha: I think, it is to do with the chaos you spot people who are chaotic, who are not following and anarchy. We are such a diverse complicated society the rules, who are possibly crossing that we cant be run in a regimented the boundaries. I think, the decline or All along we thought that way like Singapore. I find the Singadescent in the polity at large is also parents were the source of pore analogy unconvincing because affecting the descent in terms of genof the sheer scale. But I think it is true eration of ideas. We are not encourmoral values. Here are that we do tend to take short cuts. The aging people to nurture ideas which lack of long-term vision, the chalta hai young people who have are at variance from ours/others. attitude which you mentioned earnow gathered enough There is some decline of the demolier, is very prevalent in our univerunderstanding of life, to cratic profile of a person. We are also sities. It is less in the IIMs. Our producing people who are probably the extent that if they have academics by and large do not believe more autocratic. How many times in personal or institutional growth. In to follow a path which is have the students defied us or have most of our universities, they would right and if the parents are do a Ph.D. and then rest on those lauhad the courage to defy us on issues where they thought we were wrong not likely to provide that rels. They will not be growing all the and they were right. We are generatdirection, then they would time. They wont be doing original ing enough pluralism in the educaresearch. So, I think, in our profesignore the parents rather tional world. Our institutions of sional classes, security is paramount education are not showing enough than ignore the path. rather than setting targets for oneself.

you would follow only Hindustani classical music. Still, I believe that music, art, and literature are the three great and godly expressions of the human imagination. We should all have some exposure to them.

We are such a diverse complicated society that we cant be run in a regimented way like Singapore.

variation and I agree with you that this is a reflection of a larger political institutional decline which we are now trying to mirror in the garb of excellence.

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They try to achieve the targets set externally by somebody else. But they themselves dont set targets for their own improvement.

Anil Gupta: I want to share one experience which is very contradictory and I would contradict myself in the process because that is enjoyable. In the last three years, a strange trend has emerged. About 15 to 20 students narrated incidences where they did not consult their parents in dealing with a particular ethical dilemma because they feared that their parents would ask them to compromise. All along we thought that parents were the source of moral values. Here are young people who have now gathered enough understanding of life, to the ex- S Manikutty: Nothing less than perfect would do. That tent that if they have to follow a path which is right and is seen even in some of the artists when they paint. Dance also does not permit any kind of deif the parents are not likely to provide viation. They are absolutely perfect. that direction, they would ignore the One of the problems with parents rather than ignore the path. Anil Gupta: Let me play the devils our young people today is advocate again. Are we saying that There is also a positive side to that that I have not come across this their lack of commitment in these forms of creative expressions strange phenomena earlier. It is a reto institutions. They join a where compliance of rules, or concent development of a sense of confiformity to the boundary is of essence, place and within three dence of being able to make their own we still continue to excel but wherway, to decide what is right and difmonths, they want to ever innovations are required or perferent, and to take that path even if it mitted, we seem to falter? move. They take a new might not get the approval of the job and from the next day Ramachandra Guha: Innovations are elders of the family. So we need to be also happening in classical music. optimistic about this class of youth. start looking at Previously there was a rigorous Look at the number of people who naukri.com. gharana tradition. Now you can be in are making their career in music. your own gharana but also borrow Compare that with the 60s and 70s. from some other and enhance your Let us accept that we do not have many young people in our institute who are going for the career of their reputation. I think it is not excellence versus innovation. choice. Probably in our institute, our induction system It is not simply following a set tradition and excelling in is such that, we are not getting too many of those young it. There is some amount of innovation happening. people who are experimentalists. In our society, at large, S Manikutty: It may not be true that there is an underthese are not conceived of as a career. lying cultural foundation of chalta hai, corruption, and Ramachandra Guha: Like making a career in photography, travel, mountaineering, etc. You need to be daring. S Manikutty: It is also to do with opportunity. Because underlying this is the fundamental yearning for good performance, good ethical value which is probably stifled by the system. There is no chalta hai attitude in our classical music tradition. Even half a note or frequency less or more wont do. Ramachandra Guha: There is a rigour in music. It is a 14-15 hours hard work in a day. Amitav Ghosh said
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something some years ago that struck me that our classical musicians strive for excellence and achieve it. I think they are the greatest of Indians. We talk so much about our cricketers and entrepreneurs; our classical musicians are much greater. Sometimes even after 1415 hours of riyaaz everyday for 20-30 years, their gurus dont let them give a public performance. They cant do it till they are perfect. I think in many ways, they are our exemplars. Because of professionalism, excellence, and search for perfection, in many ways our classical musicians should be the role models for our management students.

lack of value. It may be the institutional environment which is really breeding these kinds of attitudes. Ramachandra Guha: I think an artist is possessed by something. It is something different. It is from within. Anil Gupta: Musicians and dancers excel in their profession because of the passion for performance at their own terms. You may want appreciation but not approval. Ramachandra Guha: A classical musician does not set out to obtain success and wealth. It may come acciden-

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tally. In 25 years, you may become M Anil Gupta: Look at it slightly difI know of young people S Subhalakshmi, if you work very ferently. Let us understand that towho have taken a break hard and have some luck. But young day when it comes to entrepreneurpeople dont want it that way. I am ship, inventions, innovations and from their career, who not an expert on the job market but trying out new things, our sample is travel and do different one of the problems with our young too small. We are making these judgthings. In our generation, ments based on a very small section, people today is their lack of commitment to institutions. They join a place less than a fraction of a per cent of the young people could and within three months, they want the elite, which has a lot of opportunot muster so much of to move. They take a new job and nities. That is not the case all around. courage. We are still very Let us accept that. But there are peofrom the next day start looking at naukri.com. I think this rapid turnover organized and elitist in our ple who are able to pursue their own is also prevalent in the voluntary seclonging or cause. The number of peoperception. tor. They want to be with some good ple who are today trying to work in NGO but also want to have all of them the civil society is going up. You in their CV. If you have five NGOs in five years in your mentioned this point that civil society is much more CV, it would mean that you have not understood and buoyant today. So while we still dont have Rockefellers imbibed the culture of any of them. Where did this come and the big philanthropists at this moment in this counfrom? This was not the case before. In fact, long-term try, large corporations which may have comparable commitment to institutions used to be the norm. wealth to the richest people in the world do not contribute even a fraction of their wealth for social or common good. So, it is not the leadership which is showing this. This is one area where the leadership is very weak. But the bottom line is that the base is very strong. Thus, it is Ramachandra Guha: This was not seen only in the fam- actually a very flat pyramid in the civil society. Our civil ily-based organizations but even in professional organi- society is not being led by icons. There are large number zations, e.g., working in Hindustan Levers for 25 years. of springs of small initiatives around the country where Do you see a problem here? people are trying to do their bit. Some of them do belong to professional class. You have understood the proS Manikutty: It is essentially because of the opportunitest movement in the ecological sectors, have looked at ties available. Job market is very much a buyers marthe struggles in the post independent India. From that ket. They keep going to naukri.com because they know vantage point of view, how do you see these trends? that employers looking for talent are also looking at Look at how people are able to now defy and oppose. naukri.com. They are offered higher salaries and thereLook at the kind of response people are showing in case fore by changing jobs frequently, in the first six to eight of Right to Information. So, for the moment, getting away years, they really get catapulted to a pretty senior posifrom the totally elite class, look at the large number of tion. It is also a perception that unless you do this, you young people who are trying to take really dont get along fast. But havthings in their stride. They are totally ing got there, i.e., after six to eight There is a problem with contrary to the chalta hai attitude. years, they dont change so freus. The teachers have to They are not succumbing to comproquently. But the real problem is that take the responsibility. We mising with it. What do you think? there is no commitment to any instiare not providing new tution of any kind and there is no Ramachandra Guha: I think here also underlying sense of values that they there is a crisis. From what Prof. icons of social can develop. I dont know what you development. Our choice Manikutty said, maybe in the corpofeel but can the values in an organirate sector, you need to make rapid of icons is also very zation be developed by a leader who moves. But in civil society, you have himself is moving every three narrow. to work with the institutions. I know months? Anil Gupta: There was a lot of loyalty in the organizations- the kind of loyalty and values that the familybased organizations nurtured..

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some brilliant people who have come As teachers, we are doing no leader here. I cant identify an individual. There are such efforts beinto the civil society six to eight years too much of teaching and ing undertaken by people. All around back and I also know Anil Gupta, Ela the country, I have seen this happenBhatt, Chandi Prasad Bhatt and diftoo less of education. ing. If one out of 1,000 seeds scattered ferent kinds of civil society people of Were not really by Premjibhai has grown, he has a different generation. What I admire developing people, we are planted 4 crore trees. This has been about people of your generation or just grooming them for achieved by one man in Upleta in older is the long-term commitment. I Saurashtra. How many of us know know some young brilliant people some particular kind of of him? So I would say there is a probwho have come back from the United trade apprentice scheme lem with us. The teachers have to take States and started NGOs in on a large scale. the responsibility. We are not providBangalore. They come to me for ading new icons of social development. vice. I tell them to spend the next five years in Bangalore. But before I realize, they are advis- Our choice of icons is also very narrow. ing the Prime Minister in Delhi. Then they are going to Ramachandra Guha: Our choice of icon would be someShanghai for some international conference. All these must come 20 to 30 years later. They should first prove one who has returned from the US and worked rather themselves on the ground. This is not an isolated exam- than someone who has grown from the ground. ple. M N Srinivas, the great sociologist, used to say that Anil Gupta: There are people who continue working media attention is the enemy of scholarship. Media at- without bothering about any recognition. Lakhs of check tention is also an enemy of civil society activism. This dams were built by the civil society in Gujarat. We kind of itch is noticed more amongst our younger civil changed the profile of drought in the state. Gujarat has society activists which I find worrisome. Rather than suffered so many drought in the past but today in most being noticed after 20 years after building a really of the places, water is not a problem anymore. We are good institution that has had an impact they want becoming too narrow in our choice of icons and baromimmediate recognition. It is a great reason for concern eter of values in our society. to me. S Manikutty: As teachers, we are doing too much of Anil Gupta: Let me take the side of the young people. teaching and too less of education. Were not really deDont you think that every generation has this famous, veloping people, we are just grooming them for some familiar remark about the previous generation? I know particular kind of trade apprentice scheme on a large of young people who have taken a break from their ca- scale. reer, who travel and do different things. In our generation, the young people could not muster so much of Anil Gupta: Two or three terms back, I asked a doctoral courage. We are still very organized and elitist in our student to look at the puncture repair shops outside perception. Youre talking about professionals who come IIMA as a part of the activities in a course on institution to you. Lets look at the large part of our society where building. I told him to see how many times does a puncture go wrong at the point where it in a village or a small town, people It is not as if history will was earlier repaired. Never, he try to do something for the larger good. In Pune, there was a road help you become a better said. So I said, Isnt it a Six Sigma story? Go and find out. where elderly people used to go for manager or prevent you So, he went around and tried to a walk. They saw that there were no from committing the find out as to how this excellence has trees on the side of the road. So, each been achieved. He found that most one of them decided to carry a pot of mistakes of your of these people repairing punctures water and plant a sapling on the side predecessors. I think it were from Kerala. I asked him to go of the road. There is a whole avenue should just be a part of and find out the first person who that has now come up with the efforts modern liberal education. came to Ahmedabad and created this of the morning walkers. There was
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with literature or music. It is not as if excellence. He located that person. India is still a work-inhistory will help you become a betVaibhav, the student, found that progress. There is a ter manager or prevent you from these workers were from the rubber committing the mistakes of your plantations in Kerala. They knew grandeur to the political how to handle rubber. Their appren- experiment, because never predecessors. I think it should just be a part of modern liberal education. tice system was so rigorous that they before in human history would not let any chalta hai attitude Anil Gupta: The very fact that the have we tried to create a there. A puncture had to be right book you wrote recently on post-inevery time because a person might unified nation out of so dependent history and as you menhave to drive for another 50-100 miles many diverse parts and tioned that most historians somehow and may not find a puncture shop on believe that history ended with indedone it democratically the way. Look at the contribution of pendence, this is something which the puncture repair shops. Dont you when 70 per cent of the you dont find in other countries. There think these are examples of excellence population were illiterate. are many countries where people do at the very grassroot level which we Western observers never write about contemporary issues. are missing out. Look at the growth in the automobile sector. It is the expected India to survive But, in India we did not have that tradition. So, by doing that, havent you highest in the world. Would this as a democratic nationtherefore also provided people a platgrowth have been possible without state. formto understand that while we these puncture repair people? A can learn from the long past, we can roadside mechanic who fixes your vehicle whenever there is trouble might have never un- also learn from the recent past and there are things which dergone training in any company. So, we are probably we can still correct. You are making history as an acnot appreciating the contribution of the so-called road- tionable agenda rather than an agenda which has to be side class or underclass which is providing better serv- only appreciated and not done anything about. ice than the world-class facilities. Ramachandra Guha: I think, India is still a work-inS Manikutty: I would like to conclude by saying that progress. There is a grandeur to the political experiment, we will really have to look at a very different way of because never before in human history have we tried to teaching. We look at very open-ended examples and create a unified nation out of so many diverse parts and dont put a model on the board. We probably cant put a done it democratically when 70 per cent of the populapuncture fellows model as a process model there. But it tion were illiterate. Western observers never expected is there and one has to understand it. One has to under- India to survive as a democratic nation-state. Our parents and many of the middle class stand the ambiguity, relationship, people were also skeptical. The probWe are not and history. In fact, I would conclude lem with India, they said, is univerby asking you why should MBA stuacknowledging that sal adult franchiseonly educated dents learn about history in your workers or other sections people should vote. But our experiview? of the society and ence has shown that the skepticism Ramachandra Guha: I have a rather was misplaced. So I think that it is a organizations have as modest view of this. It is simply to work in progress, a unique political much right to participate enlarge your understanding of the experiment. To understand how it is human imagination. The more you in the process of building unfolding and what directions it may learn about our societies and cultures take, I think our contemporary hisagenda and the vision of and time periods, the more you aptory is a good guide. the future, as the leader preciate the diversity of human conAnil Gupta: You are pointing, who would give the ditions. I see a very modest role for though in a subtle manner, that you history. I think it is a part of our genvision. are not normative and prescriptive. eral education and enlightenment as

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You are pointing to directions where there is a need for attention, need for learning, listening, and being a bit more patient. Ramachandra Guha: People will take away their own messages from my book. To go back to the point, which Manikutty started with, that they are competing ideas of India, there is a certain liberal plural inclusive democratic idea of India enshrined in the Indian Constitution. Thats the one that history seems to show that it is necessary for India to uphold to survive. Anil Gupta: Your book in that sense gives a new fuel to that idea. Ramachandra Guha: I hope so. If you look around us the way Pakistan broke up, Sri Lanka is in a civil war because of the Sinhala language imposed on Tamil I think, they can learn a few things from us. S Manikutty: Not only that. Even organizations have pluralistic societies. A manager wants uniformity, but the leader wants diversity. Ramachandra Guha: That is an excellent point. I would say to extend from an organization to the nation, a dictator wants homogeneity and a democrat welcomes diversity and dissent. S Manikutty: Diversity has many versions. We are looking at diversity of caste, creed, etc. How you manage

that is lot tougher than imposing a system and issuing a circular. Anil Gupta: Which also means that in references in the Organizational Behaviour class, in the 70s and 80s, were a lot of radical people Charles Perrow and many others who were talking about an organization from the workers point of view. They said that when a consultancy report is written, why is it given only to the management? What about the workers who dont get access to them? Very interesting questions were asked. Those questions were legitimate. Since they are all constituting the organization, they also might like to know what was diagnosed by the management consultant and whether it got the essence of the problem of the organization or not. We are probably not bringing this kind of perspective in our class. We are not acknowledging that workers or other sections of the society and organizations have as much right to participate in the process of building agenda and the vision of the future, as the leader who would give the vision. The leader would articulate it but we all contribute to that. So, in that sense, the perceptive synthesis has to emerge, but it generally does not. Again it boils down to the teachers as providers of the pluralistic perceptive and in that sense this book contributes a great deal to our understanding of that pluralism. You have been reasonably critical of different icons but didnt allow your bias too much. Everyone has a viewpoint but there has been a reasonable degree of reference to those multiple voices. I wish the teachers could do the same thing.

Ramachandra Guha is an Indian historian and a biographer whose research interests have included environment, social, political and cricket history. He is also a columnist for the newspapers The Hindu, The Hindustan Times, and The Telegraph. Born in Dehra Dun, Guha studied at The Doon School and St. Stephens College, Delhi. He has an MA in Economics from the Delhi School of Economics, and a Ph.D. in Sociology from the Indian Institute of Management, Calcutta, with a dissertation on the social history of forestry in Uttaranchal, that focused on the Chipko Movement which was later published as The Unquiet Woods. Between 1985 and 2000, he taught at various universities in India, Europe, and North America, including the University of California, Berkeley, Yale University, Stanford University, and at Oslo University, and later at the Indian Institute of Science. Since then, he has moved to Bangalore, and has been writing full time. He served as Sundaraja Visiting Professor in the Humanities at the Indian Institute of Science, Bangalore, in 2003. He is a managing trustee of the New India Foundation, a non-profit body that funds research on modern Indian history. Guha has been the recipiVIKALPA VOLUME 33 NO 1 JANUARY - MARCH 2008

ent of several awards including the MacArthur Research and Writing Award, RK Narayan Prize, and others. He is the author of a bestselling history of independent India titled India After Gandhi, published by Macmillan and Ecco in 2007. e-mail: ramguha@gmail.com S Manikutty has specialized in Business Policy and Strategy in his doctorate and teaching. His areas of interest include strategic management and competitive strategy, leadership, global competitiveness of industries, corporate governance and strategies for family businesses. He is the Chief Editor of Vikalpa, the journal published from IIM, Ahmedabad, and the Regional Editor, Asia and Pacific of European Journal of International Management (EJIM). He is also a member of the Editorial Board of International Journal of Innovation and Incubation published by the Chinese Business Incubation Association, Taiwan, and the Associate Editor, Journal of Asia Entrepreneurship and Sustainability published by St. Paul University, Quezon City, Philippines. He is a regular reviewer of papers for the

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Academy of Management Annual Conferences in the Business Policy and Strategy (BPS), International Management Division (IMD) and the Management Education Division (MED), has served as a reviewer for the journals Family Business Review and Vikalpa. e-mail: manikuti@iimahd.ernet.in Anil Gupta is a Professor in the Centre for Innovation, Incubation and Entrepreneurship (CIIE) and Centre for Management in Agriculture (CMA) at the Indian Institute of Management, Ahmedabad. Prof. Guptas mission include expansion of global and local space for grassroots innovators to ensure recognition, respect and reward for them; blending excellence in formal and informal science; protection of intellectual property rights (IPR); ethical issues in conservation, and protection of biodiversity. For linking innovations, investments, and enterprises, he helped in setting up SRISTI

(www.sristi.org), GIAN (www.gian.org), National Innovation Foundation ( nif.org.in); and creating knowledge network and culture of innovations in various formal and informal enterprises at different levels from shop floor to top management. Among the numerous honours conferred on him are included the Padma Shri for distinguished achievements in the field of management education, Bharat Asmita Acharya Shrestha National Award 2006 in recognition as the Best Management Teacher, Asian Innovation Award Gold from Far Eastern Economic Review, and Pandit Iswar Chandra Vidyasagar Lecture from the Asiatic Society, Kolkata. He was also adjudged as one of the fifty most influential people in the field of intellectual property rights around the world and was the joint recipient of Science-in-Society Award instituted by The Indian Science Congress Association. e-mail: anilg@iimahd.ernet.in

Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom. John Fitzgerald Kennedy

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