The fundamental cardinal principle in creation is that every desire is fulfilled

-Sadguru Sri Sivananda Murthy

[Sadguru Sri Kandukuri Sivananda Murthy is an embodiment of love, very compassionate. With his countenance marked by the aura of divinity, the 70 year old Sri Guruji is a pillar of strength for many scholars, scientists, statesmen and luminaries from the top echelons of the nation. Living in the company of a select group of disciples in "Anandavanam (abode of bliss) in Bhemunipatnam, Andhra Pradesh, Sri Guruji gives spiritual solace to many a seeker. He was initiated by his grandmother into the Sivapanchakshari at the tender age of seven. Sri Guruji had his early education in Vizianagaram and was for a while in the service of the Government of Andhra Pradesh. In the course of an exclusive interview with T.R. Dutta, T. Padma and D.V.R. Murthy, Sri Guruji spoke on several aspects of spiritualism. The second part of the interview is presented here. -Editor]

The fundamental cardinal principle in creation is that every desire is fulfilled. That is exactly the risk we are running. If our desires were to be filtered and judged by some one and only safe desires are granted wed have a happier life than we have now.
The subconscious mind is the seed of the next life. Without reason no one is born in this world. The reason is the compulsion of the samskaras from past lives. This life today has a past and a future. It is a link in the chain of lives.
To a Guru a disciple is a soul to be guided in the spiritual path not a cog in the machinery of society. By trust, by implicit faith and by the absence in his own mind of fears and reservations, a disciple will be able to derive maximum guidance from his Guru. When a man becomes a sanyasin, his father has to bow down to him, but a mother never has to offer pranams. Without the permission of the mother a man cannot become a Sanyasin. What more evidence do you need for womans superior status ?

The communication I have in mind is not at the verbal level. It has to be at the level of loving hearts. In terms of basic physiology has man gained anything by the prayers of Science and Technology? Has it helped him to pre-empt a heart attack?

Q: A:

Can we get a Guru by praying for one? Sincere prayer to God for a Guru will always be answered. It is important to remember however that a Gurus outward appearance, habits, way of talking or dealing with people need not conform to our preconceived notions about how a Guru should look or conduct himself. Our mental image of a Guru may be that of a solemn looking man who eats and talks sparingly and keeps aloof from day to day problems and concerns. If we have such childish notions, we will be shocked to find a Guru who is jovial, who smokes or who heartily partakes of the food offered to him. Outward behaviour should never be an index for the evolved state of a Guru. There are no hard and fast text book rules that a Guru should follow, that a Guru should get up from sleep at 4 a.m. meditatefor three hours or observe mounam on certain days. I am not saying that a Guru should not do these things. Far from it. All I am saying is that by themselves they do not qualify one to be a Guru. A Guru is not bound by any rules, He is totally independent of all regulations and regimen and in some cases, even traditions.

Q : Guruji how powerful is prayer ? Is praying to God a sign of psychological weakness? A: I will answer the second part first. No, it is not a psychological weakness. It is a mustering of inner reserves of strength. Regarding the power of prayer, there need be no doubt about it. In fact your worry should be, What if my prayers are answered rather than what if my prayers are not answered. The fundamental cardinal principle in creation is that every desire is fulfilled. That is exactly the risk we are running. If our desires were to be filtered and judged by someone and only safe desires are granted wed have a happier life than we have now. Buddha always used to tell his disciples Remember that every desire that you have in your mind shall be fulfilled and for the sake of fulfilment of desires which you might have forgotten you will take a rebirth. Hindus believe that Karma is responsible for rebirth. Buddha goes a little deeper and traces rebirth to desire because the source of Karma is only desire.

Q: A:

What if the desire is to have a Guru? Well, if the desire is to get a Guru you are bound to get a Guru. That is an inexorable law. The Guru comes to you only when he decides what should be done with you depending on the stage of evolution you are in. You see, every soul over every birth is slowly evolving. Because you are continuous your existence is continual. There are two ways of living active or conscious living when our senses or indriyas actively respond to the world around us; in the other type, the senses, though withdrawn into consciousness and arenot active as in the former, are still slaves to desires. Desires are very much present though not fulfilled.

Q : What about forgotten desires? Where do they go? A : The subconscious mind is the store house of all desires, not just the desires of this life time only the whole sum total of the past desires and past samskaras lie encapsulated in the subconscious mind.

Q: A:

Is it the subconscious mind which gives rise to rebirth ? The subconscious mind is the seed of the next life. Without reason no one is born in this world. The reason is the compulsion of thesamskaras from past lives. This life today has a past and a future. It is a link in the chain of lives. Let us look at your earlier question about finding a Guru Your question is itself an index of the level, that is, the stage you have reached in your evolution. At what age in your life you come across a Guru, as a youth, a middle aged man or an old man is an indirect revelation of the sincerity of your yearning for a Guru now and in past lives.

Q:

Is there no guideline that can tell one if the Guru he has found is a Sadguru or the right Guru for him?

A : Yes and No. A Guru who, after demanding all types of service from you, spends all the time only in discussing commercial matters, never spiritual interests, cannot obviously be a good Guru. But then, this could be a form of testing you also. The test is a test of your sincerity, of your commitment to truth. Take the story of Jabali. He was the son of Jabala. Jabala was the name of Jabalis mother. In our ancient India it was quite common to have the mothers name as ones surname. Sata karni was known as Goutamiputra Satakarni. People used to introduce themselves as the son of such and such a mother - e.g.. Son of Vasishti introducing himself as Vasishtiputra. Any way are we not calling ourselves even now sons of Bharatha Matha? Jabali onceapproached a great Rishi for jnana bhiksha, education and the Rishi wanted to know his gotra (lineage) and his fathers name. Jabali went home and asked his mother to tell him the name of his father. The mother honestly confessed to him that she served as a servant in several homes and that she really did not know who his father was. She said it openly, and Jabali repeated the answer when he went to the Rishi the next day. The Rishi appreciated the boys truthfulness and told him, you are truthf ul and that amply qualifies you to pursue Brahma Jnana. With these words he accepted him as a student and thenceforward Jabala came to be known as Satya Kaama Jabala.

Q : What are the qualities of a disciple that will be appreciated by a Guru? A : To a Guru a disciple is a soul to be guided in the spiritual path not a cog in the machinery of society. By trust, by implicit faith and by the absence in his own mind of fears and reservations, a disciple will be able to derive maximum guidance from his Guru. If a Guru were to tell a disciple, I will give you a weeks time. Note down on a white paper all the sins committed by you from childhood, he should do it immediately. He should know that it is only to offer therapeutic healing that the Guru is demanding confession of sins and certainly not to use the facts as a cudgel to hold over him, or emotionally blackmail him into perpetual obedience.

Q : Why is woman gifted away in marriage ceremonies? Is it not relegating woman to an inferior status in society ? A : The word used in marriages is Kanya danam A daughter is given to another family for the continuance of that family group. Who is inferior here? The brides father is data giver. This is kanyadanam. The receiver is the bridegroom whose family has forever to be grateful to the data. This is a danam that cannot be excelled. It is rightly said Dasa poorvesham Dasaparesham Even the gift of a kingdom is inferior to the gift of adaughter because progeny redeems ten generations of pitrus, ancestors. And ten generations of successors. A bride is a would be mother. Mother in our culture is the most sacred person. Every father is a receiver of charity the charity being his wife, the mother of his children. We have therefore, to remember that spiritual values are involved in Kanyadanam. A wife is not partner in a social contract. She is essential for a husbands spiritual upliftment.

Q : But is it not always the man, the father, who as provider is feared and respected? A : May be. But, beyond need-based obedience, the real position of reverence is given only to a mother. When a man becomes a sanyasin, his father has to bow down to him, but a mother never has to offer pranams. Without the permission of the mother a man cannot become a Sanyasin. What more evidence do you need for womans superior status ?

Q:

How relevant are these traditional values in the present age of Science and Technology?

A : Values are not era-bound. That is why they are called values and not policies or expediencies. They are timeless. Science and Technology have come into our life about four to five centuries ago. They have indeed revolutionised our material living, but not our moral living or emotional living. All the nations in the world today are racing towards achieving the optimum in this materialism. Ordinary people are content with hankering after gadgets of Science and Technology that offer them an apparently more comfortable way of life. The politician, the commercial man and the scientist each has his own vision of the future of science. Finally, whatever be the objectives motivating its widespread application, and whatever may be its triumphs, Technology is bound to reach a dead-end. The saturation point will be reached and people will realise that it is not ableto give them inner peace or fill the void they are experiencing in their lives. Only spiritualism and the espousing of spiritual values will restore harmony in homes and in society.

Q : Has not Science and Technology lessened the distance between nations and improved communication? A: Is globalisation of vision and voice a true definition for communication? Telephones and televisions help you to see and talk to people who are thousands of miles away from you. Soon you may be able to see your grandson in USA even as you are talking to him on the telephone. The communication I have in mind is not at the verbal level. It has to be at the level of loving hearts. In terms of basic physiology has man gained any thing by the progress of Science and Technology? Has it helped him to

pre-empt a heart attack? Has it helped him to control digestion? A man suffering form a liver disorder may at best receive marginal benefit in the form of a palliative for pain. But thats all. People are still dying, people are still falling sick, people are still indulging in immorality. The real value of physical happiness, of physical perfection have not been achieved by this method. So, logically speaking, every intelligent man, every thinking man, would want to apply his mind to the limitations of the achievements of Science and Technology. Scientists may find what is inside the electron, proton or the photon. Fine. But what next? Mans landing on the moon is a historic event. But unless and until knowledge has a direct bearing on improving the quality of mans day to day living, of refining his moral sense, of helping him to live harmoniously with nature and with fellow human beings, it will only be sterile knowledge. This is the reason why modern man is making a U-turn to go back to ancient values, to learn more about purposive living, about the importance of morals, of togetherness of a family, of values like respecting elders and showing proper regard for the sanctity of marriage. I think we are not very far from that time. We will reach this stage within two decades at the most. l

Q. Recent developments like Transcendental Meditation and Pranic Healing are said to be particularly adapted to our times. Is there a validity to these techniques? How far will they help modern man? Ans. Transcendental Meditation and other techniques have helped men in dealing with mental turmoil. They are certainly to be commended for they have successfully wiped out dependence on drugs for achieving a kind of tranquillity. For this reason people have taken to these techniques. But, when all is said and done, they are peripheral to Yoga Sastra. They do not go deep enough into Yoga Sastra, nor do they serve the ultimate purpose of Moksha. Yoga provides an approach to Moksha, though some schools of philosophy do not endorse this view. As a Sastra, Yoga itself claims to deliver the soul. So, when Patanjali reduced the Sastra into certain aphorisms, what he did was codification of the theory and practice. Today, the Yoga of Patanjali is not studied in depth, nor is it pursued for the ultimate goal of Moksha. What many people seek is some tranquility. Instead of turning to drugs which produce some side effects, they are following these natural techniques which bring about a change in their consciousness. On the other hand, Yoga enables one to cleanse and transform consciousness totally.

Q. We have learnt that mans consciousness can be elevated or used as a means of improving himself. Is there some ancient method that can still be applied by man, individually, or in the family or a group ? Ans. In fact, that is the very purpose of Yoga Sastra, viz., elevating mans consciousness far beyond body consciousness. Limitations of body consciousness have to be crossed. That is the first step. We have a consciousness that is confined to and by the body. When consciousness is made to cross the boundaries of sex and body, you have a universal consciousness, an awareness that is essentially transcendent.

Q. Many Westerners are coming to India in search of this elevation of consciousness. They would like to have a guru, an Upadesa or a Mantra. What, then, Guruji, is your advice to these earnest seekers ? Ans. For consciousness elevation, the guidance of a Guru is indispensable. Here, I would like to sound a note of warning. Many practitioners of Yoga, after a little progress tend to believe that they have reached perfection. Under this delusion they think of themselves as adepts and undertake guidance of aspirants. The danger here is that they cannot guard themselves or their disciples against the many pitfalls in the path of Yoga. There is a special danger of entering the realms of hallucination and of hidden fears and suspicions surfacing. Sincere prayer for a Guru is the best path. Total surrender to him ensures safe and steady progress. Let me tell you about what a Guru is not. The true Guru is not interested in collecting lots of money, is not publicity conscious, nor does he institutionalise himself. No Guru is really interested in worldly prosperity and the prospect of being recognised by the World. He speaks little, expects nothing, does not try to impress you. These are the basic qualities of a Guru. But, well, even these things can be pretended sometimes. That is why I advise constant prayer to God.

Q. We seek guidance of another kind too for our problems. A ready solution is offered by the Astrologer. How far can we depend upon Astrology ? Ans. Astrology is a different subject altogether. If you want to know something about Astrology, you must know its basis. You had a past, you indulged in some karma. So it is destined to give you some result in this birth. On this assumption Astrology is based. What kind of karma did I indulge in the past, in the last birth and what kind of results is it going to give in me this birth? - That is the basic question. So with this in mind, you try to figure out from the planetary configurations the kind of good or bad you are likely to face during a particular period. Predictions, as you call them, do not simply involve textual knowledge of Astrological rules. Human experience is very complex and contains great variety. No two human beings are alike. Happiness and sorrow can be delineated by configurations of the subhagrahas or the asubha grahas. Textual knowledge is not enough. The Astrologer has to understand the very nature of life first and try to find out the quality of life indicated by the planetary configuration and then speak about it. An immature Astrologer who has not understood life, but who has thoroughly studied Astrology, may be able to predict a few events, but the essence of the event is lost. What kind of impact an event may have on your consciousness, is to be looked into. For that there might be a remedy. This apart, the predictability of the future itself should be proved first. That is a Vedantic question.

Q.

What use is Astrology to one on the Yogic Path ?

Ans. The Yogis attitude to life is quite different from that of the average man. A Yogi is prepared for good or bad. He is even capable of changing his future by his yogic power. But, would he care to do it ? If he is a Jnani, he would submit to destiny without protest. He would

allow destiny to take its course and not use up all his powers to live 10 more years What do I get ? This is the question a Yogi puts to himself. The answer is, except being a burden to others, I would get nothing out of it. As an old man. I cannot earn money or digest food I like. Ten more years of old age does not benefit me or others. This wisdom guiding our worldly life is the threshold of Jnana. The values long ago established in our Aryan culture imparted this wisdom.

Q.

How, then, do we go about in regaining this wisdom ?

Ans. It is impossible to define what is Aryan culture in a few sentences. We have to go back to the Puranas and filter them carefully rather than read them merely as stories about the bad deeds of other people. Let us attempt to understand their message to us. For example, in the Mahabharata if you take it as an epic and not a purana, whatever misdeeds were indulged in by people were frankly narrated. Truth is important. Whether future generations find it respectable or acceptable was not their concern. They did not care about it. Veda Vyasa, the son of Parasara, was born to an unmarried woman. No attempt was made to conceal it. But to-day we do not even declare our income properly to the income tax authorities. What kind of truth can we tell about ourselves?. This is the bane of modern life. We are, to put it mildly, not able to recognise truth. I dont hold a brief for Veda Vyasa or Parasara. I dont have to defend his actions, because he does not himself care to defend others. We have to carefully note the inherent concept of dharma. For Veda Vyasa it is Dharma. To me it is not Dharma. My level is different. It depends upon the level of the individual. Dharma varies from context to context from person to person, yuga to yuga. Dharma is not like a steel rood which is not flexible. Dharma is highly flexible. For example, to kill somebody in some context may be Dharma. In the same way in another context to save somebody may be Dharma. Both are Dharma. That is why the entire Mahabharata centres round the issue of Dharma. The Mahabharata is also a Dharma Sashtra designed for our benefit. Absorbing this dharma is a lifetimes study and gives direction and growth to ordinary life. I do not know how to declare what dharma is, how to define it. The appropriateness of thought, word and deed is Dharma. That is all there is to it. Even telling a lie may be Dharma sometimes. The context decides it. - the purpose for which you have uttered the truth or the intention with which you have uttered the untruth. Suppose, late in the night, some girl runs to my house and says: some goondas are chasing me, sir, give me shelter. I give her shelter and the goondas come and inquire about her. Should I not tell a lie? It is simple. A rigid application of a principle is not dharma. Dharma is a great flexible principle.

Q.

Guruji, what is your message for the present generation ?

Ans. One has to look back and understand the past, if one is not to simply repeat it. We have to analyse the experiences of our ancestors so that, we can have a ready made guide for our future. Much time, labour, and suffering are saved. What people seem to think is

that their ancestors are unwise and they themselves are wiser. This is exactly the pitfall into which every modern man is falling. Simply this kind of arrogance is the result of Science and Technology. They have made man arrogant. He has lost his humility. He has lost his wisdom, the capacity to look back into the lives of his ancestors. My grandfathers experience is more valuable than anything else for me, if I wish to utilise it. My grandfather was a Zamindar. He indulged in certain pleasures, and lost his popularity and his wealth. There is a lesson for me in it. Why should I personally go through the whole thing again ? Whether it is Sri Ramas time, or your grandsons, human nature is the same. Mans desires are the same; his senses are the same. His difficulties are the same. . We have been exposed largely to foreign accounts of our country. The need of the hour is

History, a sense of our past, our heritage, and our culture. We need to look at our country through our own eyes. This is what I wish to impress on our young men and women. Our

forefathers accepted the truth and presented the truth, however, unflattering it might have been. This is the spirit in which we must re-read our epics and Puranas.