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I made my first encounter with Evangelicals when I did my Master degree at Asian Institute of Technology, Bangkok, Thailand. Directly I was appealed by their zealousness and love to Christ, Scripture and evangelism. While they are not the first Protestants I met in my life they looked different in term of zealousness and eagerness to live and to share their faith. At the same time I also sensed their dislike or even hate to Catholicism. I remember on my first day in the institute (all students stay in the provided dormitories inside the institute) I was introduced to one former Catholic turned Evangelical from the Philippines. He gave me strange look upon knowing my Catholic upbringing, as if I did something terribly wrong. Nevertheless after some time I decided to join Bible study with one Evangelical let me refer him as my evangelical mentor. He is Navigators trained person and former student who then worked at the Institute and was one of the leaders of the Evangelical Fellowship (AITCF) in the campus . For those who do not know the Navigators, it is Christian ministry founded by Dawson Trotman (1906 to 1956) with the
http://vivacatholic.wordpress.com/rediscovering-catholicism/[7/26/2013 4:31:49 PM]
aim to train and to equip Christians for evangelism. The goal is to make (obedient) Christians (1) place Christ at their centre of life, (2) have fellowship with another Christians (Evangelicals), (3) witness to nonChristians, (4) pray and (5) read/study Scripture. Through my evangelical mentor I was introduced to memorizing verses of the Bible. The first verses I memorized were Assurance of Salvation (1 John 5:11-12), Assurance of Guidance (Proverbs 3:5), Assurance of Victory (1 Corinthians 10:13) and Assurance of Forgiveness (1 John 1:9). As I spent more time with him, more verses I managed to memorize. I was not aware that gradually he transformed me into evangelical Christian. There was hardly any opposition from my side, despite of many years of Catholic upbringing. I was like empty or blank sheet on which my mentor wrote without having to erase anything. What happened to me is common to many Catholics who make friends with Evangelicals in fact Catholics are their easy and favourite target of their evangelism. Most Catholics are not trained to defend and to explain their faith and therefore become easy prey of their evangelism. They are favourite target because they, though being nominal or cultural Catholics, are already equipped with fundamental beliefs that Catholics and Protestants share like Trinity, Divinity of Christ, Virgin birth etc. - the Evangelicals do not have to start from zero to convert them. I was aware that my evangelical mentor expected me to join their fellowship on Sundays, and I was really attracted to do so. One (and the only) thing that hindered me was their arrogance, especially those who were former Catholics. By arrogance I meant they acted as they were special and better quality Christians. While I agree they knew more about Bible and they expressed their relation with Christ in their daily life, I didnt like the way they looked down at those who were not Evangelical, be they Catholics and non-Christians. My evangelical mentor is not former Catholic but he nevertheless openly expressed his anti-Catholicism to me. At one time he said Catholics worship idols because Catholic churches have statues inside. He told me that purgatory was unscriptural and that the Bible says all Christians are saints, or the title saint does not belong to only selected persons as according to Catholic Church (now I know that he was wrong, the Catholic Church does acknowledge communion of saints on earth, in heaven and purgatory). I was defenceless; my knowledge about my faith and Scripture was not enough to argue with him. He expressed his arrogance by saying countries with Protestant majority are wealthier than those with Catholic majority like the Philippines, Mexico and South American countries. He belongs to group of Evangelicals who believe that if you are Evangelical or at least Protestant, God will bless you materially (not all Evangelicals or Protestants share this view). His worst statement was when he said South Africa, then was still under apartheid, was blessed by God because they were governed by Protestants (Dutch Reformed Church). I call it worst statement because it made me look at him in different way in other words I stoped looking up at him as a role model. I always dont like arrogant people. I am not saying all Evangelicals are arrogant in the course of time I met Evangelicals who show respect and love to others and who do not look-down at others. Despite all of these negative things I continued having weekly meeting with him for one-to-one Bible study until I completed my Master program. While I never joined their fellowship (they did put my name as member but I attended their Sunday service only couple times) he managed to turn me into Evangelical. I believed in distinct Evangelical beliefs like salvation by faith alone, that we do good works because we are saved and not for being saved, that the Bible is the only and highest authority and I only read Protestant Bible (66 books). Obviously as good Evangelical I ignored Virgin Mary and stopped saying Rosary. After completing my master program I got scholarship to continue my study at the University of Tokyo , Japan. My Evangelical friends made sure that I made contact with local Evangelicals they gave me names and addresses and even contacted and informed them about my arrival. So I joined evangelical fellowship of foreign students in Tokyo we met once a month for fellowship and Bible study. At the same time I hopped from one church to another, mainly because somebody from that church invited me. Then I faced another new challenge, this time from my Muslim friend. He gave me booklets written by the late Muslim apologist from South Africa, Ahmed Deedat . By Grace of God I managed to overcome this challenge it even strengthened my faith in Christ and in Gods words. The other thing I learnt is you get distorted view if you learn Christianity from non-Christian source. Then I realized that all the time I myself only listened to what my Evangelical friends told me about Catholicism. No matter how sincere they are, they are not reliable source of information. I made up my mind to start learning about Catholicism. Yet itwas not easy to get reliable source on Catholicism in Japan (then there was no Internet). Anyway I started attending Masses at Franciscan Chapel Centre in Roppongi , Tokyo. I went there on Saturday evening and on Sunday morning I attended Protestant service. Then one day I met a friend who invited me to his church. It was a small church with only few members as compared to Tokyo Baptist church in Shibuya , my Sunday (Protestant) church that time. But what shocked me was not their small size but their
attempt to steal me from Tokyo Baptist church. They encouraged me to switch to their church. The pastor told me that he used to be a member of Tokyo Baptist church until he discovered that the pastor (then Pastor Richard Horn) did not believe the Bible is Gods words. This was quite serious allegation! I did not bother to check whether the allegation was true or not after all I was not an official member of Tokyo Baptist church even though I attended their Sunday worship regularly. But I kept on asking myself why they did that? At that time I naively thought all Protestant churches are same, i.e. they believe and teach the same thing. Their different names (or denomination) are just names, something like franchise names in business. Thus MacDonald and Burger King have different names but they sell the same (or more or less same) hamburgers (BTW I dont like fast-food). Anyway I decided to examine the beliefs of different Protestant churches. To my dismay I discovered that although all of them declare that the Bible alone as their final and highest authority, they disagree with each other on its interpretation. They use the same Bible (66 books) and claim they are guided by the same Holy Spirit, yet they produce conflicting teachings. This happened not recently but it has been going on and on since Reformation. At the end what they practise is not sola scriptura (Latin for Scripture alone) as authority, but their interpretation of the Bible alone as authority. The Reformers seized the authority to interpret Scripture from the Catholic Church and passed it to whoever can read the Bible. While it may sound appealing and certainly looks more democratic, it is the source of the establishment of many churches with contradicting teachings. Many Evangeliclas told me that they do not need (Catholic)) Church to interpret the Bible for them they have the Holy Spirit who will guide them on one to one basis. It sounds good but if the Holy Spirit guided Martin Luther to teach that Baptism regenerates and is applicable to infants, the same Holy Spirit will not guide others to teach Baptism is only symbol and applied only to adults after they profess their faith in Christ. Something is wrong here! Which one of these churches I should belong to? How do I know I choose the correct one? An evangelical or Bible only Christian will answer that I should choose the one who place the Bible as the final authority and Christ as the centre. Unfortunately there are many who make that claim and yet they disagree with each other. Their disagreement is not restricted in nonessential matters like whether Christian men are allowed to dance with opposite sex or not, but even in serious matters like whether our salvation is assured or conditional, whether Christ died for all or only for some, whether Baptism is necessary for salvation or not etc. Others might say to choose church that will make you feel comfortable and will help you to grow spiritually in other words use your own judgment, but how do we know we make correct judgment? Then the words of Christ in the Gospel gave the answer: And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the power of death shall not prevail against it (Matthew 16:18, RSV). I knew I must return home, to the Church Christ promised to be built on Peter. I never look back. I did not transform into Catholic overnight it took me years to finally dismantle what my evangelical mentor painstakingly built in me. I spent time investigating and studying what the Catholic Church really teaches, especially on essential issues like salvation, justification and Scripture and to this day I am still learning as there are still many things within Catholicism I still do not know. From what I already learnt (and I can say with confidence I have sufficient knowledge) please read my brief posts on salvation in Catholicism and Justification: contrasting Catholic and Protestants position. I also spent some time investigating formation of books of the Bible, especially those of Old Testament under Old Testament category you can find what I wrote.
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Tom October 30, 2007 at 12:16 pm This was so refreshing to hear. I felt alone in my dealing with the barage of insults from the bible only crowd. I began to feel unarmed to argue my faith. Keep up the good work. Reply
tiber jumper November 3, 2007 at 10:09 pm Beautiful story, articulating your personal experience with sola Scriptura was truly eye opening. Keep up the great work. The Church is gaining more and more Catholics like you! To the Glory of God! Reply
arnold January 21, 2008 at 5:39 pm The catholic church is founded by christ a hundred million churches,heresy,persecutions,Blasphemy and stupidity can never destroy his Body. on judgement Day the catholic church will be vindicated and all the lies and deceptions of its opponents will be revealed. Reply
candidsoul888 September 23, 2011 at 3:19 pm Little correction, please and know that Im not doing this out of arrogance or pride, since humility is one of the authentic signs of sanctity: The Catholic Church, being the Mystical Body of Christ, Himself [and in that body are incorporated those faithful to her teachings] will be sitting in judgment against all those heretics and deceivers who opposed and mock Him in His Body. Reply
Mark July 1, 2008 at 8:04 pm Sad story.
Fell for the oldest Catholic argument in the book. Protestants are all different therefore I must go back to the one true church. Last time I checked, there was way more diversity in the Catholic church. It just happens they have an authoritative head who can claim unity despite the obvious. Just have a read of the Catechisms remarks on Mary, all of them (theres lots), then read every single reference to Mary in the 66 Books. Thats just one of hundreds of reasons why Ill never go near the Catholic Church. Rule 1. The Church is never wrong. Rule 2. If you disagree, see rule 1. Dont think, let the church think for you. Dont read the bible yourself, let us read it for you. Dont come to Christ for yourself, let the priest go for you. We write Gods Words today, tradition is Sacred of course. If the church is infallible, why did they utterly condemn Protestants to anathema hell at Trent, but recently say that well be OK? Christ will never be ruled by a church. Amen. Reply
Rohini December 26, 2009 at 8:41 am Thank you Vivator. You are a true apologist. You managed to say everything I always knew to be true! I had a similar journey as you because in my family, we were cultural Catholics, though God-fearing. I was never taught properly about the riches of grace in our wonderful Roman Catholic Church and drifted into Protestantism because I was so attracted by their emphasis on the personal love of God. That is one thing I really appreciate about the Protestants. Also, I am a verbal learner and I loved the emphasis on the Word of God. It took me a few years to discern their heresies. But again, I have to thank them because they confused me so much so as to make me want to explore the riches of my own Catholic faith I love the Word more than ever now because 2 days at a Charismatic Catholic Retreat in Mumbai gave me a peace that 10 years of Bible reading and Protestant interpretation could not do. In fact, I was confused beyond imagining and may have put many people off Christianity during those years. The reason Im writing this is to express the answers to common Protestant challenges in a coherent manner (and without getting into an oral quarrel which just leaves bad feelings). Ive experienced the less than respectful attitude of the Protestants towards the Church, I remember their contemptuous looks whenever the word Catholic was mentioned, all of which has played on my mind and pushed me to get to the bottom of the whole Truth which I have done in a very objective way, if I say so myself. I used to challenge my priests and my family members with the same questions and knew all the answers typically given by the Catholic Church but this retreat gave me such integrated Scriptural knowledge and an experiential knowledge of TRUE teaching. Protestant preachers are fond of talking about authority (usually to serve their own interests). Well, Martin Luther and Henry VIII evidently didnt think obedience was so important. The stakes were HUGE but they thought nothing of tearing the Body of Christ into fragments for their own selfish ends. No wonder they are called wolves in sheeps clothing! Martin Luthers problem was that he had a troubled relationship with his father, he was superstitious and neurotic and could not BELIEVE in the abundant channels of Gods grace that the Church administered. If he had lived in this century he would have been diagnosed with OCD, going to Confession sometimes several times a day!! I cannot imagine how he could be taken seriously by so-called Reformists. Every pastor who defects to start a new denomination
cannot have much use for obedience to authority. Who appoints this authority anyway? It is self-appointed! Ive experienced both Catholicism and Protestantism and I know without a shadow of a doubt which one is the TRUE CHURCH: Catholicism WORKS! It is not a Church of works! If, by works, you mean ongoing sanctification, then, yes, it preaches GRACE which gives us the OPPORTUNITY to REPENT through the sacrament of reconciliation, i.e be washed clean. Heaven was opened for us; It was accessible to us, Christ did not win us an unconditional pass to eternal life. Run in such a way that you may obtain the prize. Repentance must be coupled with BELIEF or FAITH and then, produce fruit. Faith without works is dead. Catholics do not try to EARN salvation; no one can! Salvation was Gods initiative but there must be an ongoing response to His gracious initiative. Good works are meant to be a grateful response to His grace, not a duty and a burden. Gods justice cannot just sentimentally overlook peoples sin and say Oh now, lets dress them up in white robes and make them look pure and holy! Christs grace is to give us the opportunity to grow in sanctification through the sacraments and prayer and the Eucharist. Protestants take salvation for granted; their presumption of salvation as a one-time event is masqueraded as humility. How can you deny Christs saving work? they ask, appalled. The Catholic position does not deny Christs saving work, it doesnt want believers to fall into presumption. Only witness the sad decadence of nations that have embraced this heresy the permissiveness of the European and American society and political system are proof positive of the consequences of twisting the Gospel for ones own convenience. Making God out to be a sentimental fool who is not concerned with our attitudes or behaviour after accepting Christ as Lord and Saviour is no better than Muslims believing the silly notion that God in His Infinite sentimentality, miraculously substituted Jesus with some other person on the Cross! DO CATHLICS BELIEVE IN THE WORD OF GOD? EVERYTHING has a scriptural base in the Catholic Church if you sincerely want to know the Truth, read Rome Sweet Home by Scott and Kimberley Hahn and Francis Beckwiths Return to Rome. Do CATHOLICS WORSHIP MARY AND THE SAINTS? NO! We do not worship Mary nor the saints. We only worship the Triune God. MAry is to be venerated and revered in her role in Gods plan of salvation. When we say the Rosary, we are repeating SCRIPTURE i.e the HOLY SPIRITS WORDS through ELIZABETH and the ANGEL GABRIEL. This sanctifies us; it gives us a dose of grace. Also, the Rosary is a plea asking Mary to pray FOR us, much as you would ask someone in your prayer group or your mother to pray for you. We are praying TO God WITH Mary. Im amazed how much the Protestants go ON and ON about Abraham, David, Jacob, Gideon, Esther, Ruth etc all of whom were very important in Gods long relationship with Israel. How can they, then, IGNORE the role of Jesus mother?!?! Mary our spiritual Mother (not divine), was given to us by Jesus Himself and our older brothers and sisters, the saints are Catholics who serve as an example through their life of prayer and penance in cooperation with Gods grace in their sanctification (remember, we have to work at it with fear and trembling). They are Gods gracious means of enabling us in our own sanctification. Protestants take the verse about being saved by grace and not through works as an easy way out of the tension of the narrow path. The narrow gate we have to walk is the tension between our flesh and our spiritual lives in Christ. Its something Luther would not handle and the Enemy tempted him to lead the Body of Christ to be torn apart. It continues to be torn apart by quibblers and charlatans everyday. There are 5 new denominations every week! If you have the intellectual and spiritual honesty, i.e, if you want to make an HONEST SEARCH, attend a Catholic Bible Study (done by Word Ministers, clergy or lay people), all your doubts and questions about the Church instituted by Christ Himself will be wiped away. There is never any Protestant bashing at the Catholic Church. There is only patient longing for the Prodigal to come home. I challenge doubtful and stubborn Protestants to undergo Bible study from a Catholic source with respect, suspending prejudice and judgment, just as I did with Protestantism. If the Catholic Church were eager to get numbers, She would admit people without any lengthy initiation like RCIA. But She insists on Her members knowing the whole Truth and the scriptural basis for it. Not so, however, for Protestant megachurches! You can church-hop much like a job
which is what it is to most Protestant preachers. There are sincere people among them, of course, but they have, as my friend Vivator says, a confused individualistic interpretation which breeds confused congregations who keep looking for answers and trying to get more faith so they can get God to bless them or more commonly still, to bless their finances. Regarding individual Bible Interpretation: It is inconceivable that God means for every individual to interpret the Bible for him/herself. That would mean 6 billion plus churches, all living unto themselves. That would be chaos and as you can see, it IS! I mean, the Protestant phenomenon is fertile ground for charlatans and prosperity gospel preachers. The Hmm, what can God do for me today? gospel is especially rife in the United States of America. Individualism is the scourge of the 20th and 21st centuries; it is what has bred Humanism which is the big enemy of Christianity. Civil rights to abort the unborn? Are civil rights above Gods law? The Protestant church has created a monster which it cannot handle. Honestly, if you take the Bible out of context, you can make the Word say anything you want It to. And you do! Protestant America has made a God in its own image a Capitalist Republican, with the US as His favourite, sanctioning any number of righteous wars against hapless nations like Vietnam, fighting Communism by force and guile rather than through prayer and diplomacy. Regarding the Sacraments: The next disagreement with the Catholic Church is that we have rituals. They are only rituals for people who are lukewarm or who see them as such. Is Bible reading a ritual? It can be. I have had miraculous physical healings not once but TWICE after Confession (one of the best things about the Church), even though I may have told my friends the same weaknesses and failings a thousand times. The sacraments are abundant channels of Gods grace! The priest administers Gods grace. Why have Protestants robbed their church by taking away the sacraments?!? Its a mistake to think that one has to be intellectual and clever to be redeemed. Even unlettered people who dont understand the Bible but come in simple faith, can be sanctified through the sacraments. It is not sola scriptura nor sola fidelis. The Separated Brethren have done themselves a great disservice and it saddens us. And by removing holy pictures and statues, icons etc, you are pretending that we are not human beings, humble creatures with senses! Gods grace is imbibed through our eyes, our food, our ears, our hearts and so on, not just our intellects. One person may feel closer to God through the sight and fragrance of candles or a work of art like The Pieta. Or a beautiful painitng or stained glass window. Creation for the Creator is a wholesome tenet! Everything can be holy. Idol worship refers to FALSE idols, that is worship of creatures. This does not refer to legitimate pictorial representations of the Lord and the Apostles, His mother, the Holy Angels, and the saints. We are not worshipping these statues, they are an aid to our creaturely senses. I may add that Protestant churches are the bleakest, most sterile looking buildings I have ever been in. Why does the Roman Catholic Church make such a big deal about Divorce, Euthanasia,Contraception and Abortion? Have you ever stood up for the unvarnished and unpopular Truth? And what has been your experience afterwards? It has become politically correct to bash the Roman Catholic Church. People only throw stones at fruit bearing trees. When unbelievers ridicule or reject Christians because of our zeal, we have no problem in believing that we are being persecuted! Thats exactly what the Catholic Church suffers. Which Protestant denomination would be so unequivocal about grave issues like abortion and contraception, euthanasia and other Pro Life concerns? Or divorce, for that matter? It would be too afraid of losing members, maybe even the pastor himself. Or herself! Proud people mock at the Roman Catholic Church, but they have a grudging respect for Her all the same because She is more concerned about safeguarding the Truth than pandering to half baked populist Christians. Do Catholics worship the Pope? The shocking thing is that people have dared to say that the Pope is the anti-Christ because the Roman Church is a Church of works! How prejudiced and how ignorant! The Pope is a fallible human being but he IS infallible ONLY in the matter of safeguarding faith and guiding morals.
He can lose his temper. He is fallible. He can complain in suffering. He is fallible. He goes to Confession to a humble ordinary priest every week. God in His wisdom may decree something which to our human understanding may not seem democratic or humanist. However, when it comes to setting out the CODE of TRUTH and MORALS and FAITH, the Pope is Gods infallible instrument, through the Holy Spirit and the authority vested in him by Christ Himself. Paedophilia in the Church: The Church is made up of human beings. Priests are fallible. That does not mean they are not channels of Gods grace. The point is, the Church is for sinners to be redeemed and a priest can be redeemed if he truly repents, humbly accepts Gods grace and works on his own sanctification. The priest is consecrated, not like Protestant preachers who marry and divorce numerous times. Talk about immorality! Celibacy can be a struggle but not everything that is a struggle is to be conveniently done away with. You face it honestly and work through it. Paedophilia and pornography are everywhere, not just in the Catholic Church! The Church is not trying to come up with some doctrinal innovation every other day, or a nuanced spiritual principle which gets God to make your life more pleasant, prosperous or exclusive. In other words, it is sincere, and not trying to sugarcoat the TRUTH. (The Protestant Prosperity Gospel is a travesty of the Good News) Mostly, those preachers come back to what they know best sowing and reaping, tithing and harvesting a big raise, or huge growth in business etc. Mike Murdock is one example. Their belief is that Jesus Christ fully endorses capitalism and the American Way. Money Money Money!!! Its an obsession because Protestants dont have the sacraments, they measure Gods favour by how wealthy and prosperous one is. Hence Benny Hinns big mansion and private jet, Joyce Meyers big mansion, flashy clothes and private jet, and various others. Its the American Way! Protestant preachers tell you youre not blessed because you dont have enough faith and if you sow in their ministry, youll be blessed; do you mean that one can measure Gods favour through worldly prosperity? You got that job because you had Gods favour? So the other guy who didnt get it and goes to the same church as you, and more often, didnt, because he doesnt? Mary,the Mother of Jesus, was favoured but I doubt she was very rich. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3. The Roman Catholic priests almost always tell us about compassion for the have-nots. It was Pope John Paul II who made endless efforts to bring down Communism in the USSR through prayer and diplomacy. That was just one of this charismatic and holy mans contributions. I could go and on about him. In short, the main difference between Protestant and Catholics is that the first denies the Cross of Christ and the second embraces it to reach Christ. Suffering may be allowed by God because you have faith! He wants you to accept His Will, whether it seems pleasant or unpleasant to you. Its not always name it and claim it. Resignation to Gods Will is something that sanctifies us. For the record, I consider myself to be an Evangelical Catholic God bless you. Reply
RJP July 19, 2013 at 8:45 am I would caution readers here with this warning: You will rarely, if ever, see Vivator admit to error in this blog.
* He claims not to censor comments unfairly, but he does again and again. Thus you the reader will not always see good rebuttals to his comments. * It is obvious that Vivator has never studied logic. The number informal logic fallacies that he commits here is staggering and would require an entire book to document. * He censors comments if they are too sarcastic but has no problem telling a writer that you dont have to be a rocket scientist to know that. * Spend time here and you will see how intransigent Vivator is even in the face of overwhelming evidence.. Examples: - He chastises a reader for stating Romes doctrine of indulgences, claiming the practice is an archaic one. The reader provides clear evidence that the practice continues and Vivator says nothing. - He belittles the biblical (he says Protestant) idea of imputation but wont admit that the treasury of merit imputes merit to penitents. - He ridicules Calvinisms doctrine of predestination, and will not, even with Catholic citation sources, admit that Thomas Aquinass doctrine of predestination is virtually identical. - A reader cites Irenaeuss support of sola scriptura and this is ignored. - A reader raises the issue of how the ancient church fathers side against Romes interpretation of Matthew 16:18 thou art Peter and upon this rock.. and its alleged support for the papacy, and Vivator abruptly closes discussion on the topic. - A reader tries to correct Vivators mischaracterization of Luthers position on works and Vivator does not allow the posting, and continues to falsely portray Luthers true position. I would be very careful about the information presented here. If someone can be wrong on so many issues, isnt it at least possible that his reasons for returning to Roman Catholicism might also be wrong? It seems to me that he is trying to reconcile the faith alone doctrines he learned from evangelicals with his newer Catholic understandings but this simply cannot be done. Ill be very surprised if this comment sees the light of day. And I would be very surprised if Vivator would have returned to Rome had he known the full extent of theological problems within Catholicism. Reply
vivator July 21, 2013 at 9:12 pm Do you ever notice that some newspaper and magazine may have reader corner (or something like that) where readers can write on certain topics published in newspaper/magazine? First the readers are not under any obligation to write something. The newspaper/magazine reserves the right to publish or not to publish they are not under any obligation to publish every letter from the reader. There is not censorship here you totally use the wrong word. By using the word censor you (and those with the alias Sc59) admit that those unpublished comments contain obscene (adult only) or sensitive materials that need to be censored. I experienced the same thing my comments on other blog are sometimes unpublished but unlike you I am not mad at all. Why should I? It is childish and immature behavior. I do recognize that the owner of the blog, like the publisher of newspaper or magazine, reserves the right to publish or not to publish my comment. I do not and never invite you or any reader to visit my blog and there is no obligation to leave any comment. You visit my blog and leave your comment freely or in your terminology you were unconditionally foreordained from eternity to visit my blog and to leave comment which means there is nothing you can do.
Anyway you do give me good feedback I am too sarcastic. Have you checked antiCatholic blogs? There are many out there. Do they do the same? if I do not respond to any comment it does not mean I cannot answer it. First I am not under any obligation to answer any comment and SO ARE the readers. You accuse me doing something NOT according your standard or concept but why on earth I should follow your standard or concept? Whom you think who you are that I should listen to you? I am not under any obligation to make anyone satisfied with my answer and neither are you. When I decided to return to the Catholic Church I did not become Catholic overnight. It took some time to learn and to realize how my evangelical friends misunderstand Catholicism something that you are still doing now. Finally I NEVER try to reconcile the faith alone doctrines I learned from evangelicals with my newer Catholic understandings. They are things that both can agree and there are things that both always disagree just read my post on comparing Justification as according to Catholic Church and according to Reformers.
RJP July 22, 2013 at 7:39 pm You write: why on earth I should follow your standard or concept? Whom you think who you are that I should listen to you? I am not under any obligation to make anyone satisfied with my answer and neither are you. Yes, I have a standard and a concept one pulled from scripture: and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. Indeed the name of my Savior is synonymous with the very idea of truth (John 14:6). Because I am a slave to Christ, I am also a slave to trut not a slave to a church, man, or system. True, my standard is not the worlds standard. I am not surprised at the charge of angry and childish and immature. Because truth isnt contradictory, I expect contradictions to be reconciled with intellectual honesty, from myself and you because there are impressionable minds reading this blog. If I spend three to five hours writing a thoughtful response to one of your posts yes, I expect you to show it. Especially when I see the kind of comments you do allow. So I think it is important to let people know your style before they spend time reading your blog or posting to it. When preparing for my Catholic confirmation, I was the one who put up my hand and asked the teacher But how do we know, at age thirteen, whether we are of the true faith? All I remember of the reply: Those people who leave the Catholic religion (for another faith) do so before they really know their OWN religion..they should know their OWN religion before they leave I never forgot that challenge and decided to make it one of my lifes goals. You claim I misunderstand Catholicism I assure you I understand it well. In fact, I dare say that if I dont understand it then there are millions who dont understand it. Perhaps it deserves to be misunderstood with all of its contradictions, man-made traditions, and conflicts with scripture. Perhaps that is why your evangelical friends misunderstood it. In fact, I think you misunderstand Catholicism. The Catholicism I know is the one I learned growing up in the church and is quite representative of the popular understanding not the ivory tower version you discovered later in life. For instance, you claim a version of Catholicism that is not merit-based but the popular understanding I grew up with and know today is the same one all my Catholic
friends know, the one all my Catholic relatives know which is the same one that says salvation IS merit based. The reason this idea of a merit-based salvation is so popular is because it happens to agree with official Catholic teaching. The Catholic Catechism says your system is merit based, and The Catholic Encyclopedia says your system of salvation is merit based. So for you to say that Catholicism is not merit-based shows me you are a victim of your own misunderstanding regarding Catholicism. What you can never undo is what you learned as an evangelical.
vivator July 22, 2013 at 8:10 pm You quoted John 14:6 but you totally missed 1 Tim 3:15 that says the foundation of pillar of truth is the church. Inspired by the Holy Spirit Paul would not write about your church established fifteen century later by men. You also missed the scriptural truths that Christ made divine promise to be His Church to the end of age, to send the Holy Spirit to guide in truth and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against His Church. Scripture nowhere says those promises are valid until the Roman emperor Constantine legalized Christianity or until fifteenth century. What you found and to which you rely on now is your own truth, not biblical truth. For sure many Catholics misunderstand or are ignorant of the teachings of the Church simply because they rely on what they hear from other, not from official teaching of the Church you are one good representative sample, this explains why you are easily misled just like lamb in the slaughter house. You are wrong to say that I never undo what I learnt when I was evangelical I already threw away all evangelical teachings not in agreement with those of the Catholic Church.
vivator July 5, 2008 at 2:05 pm I do not deny that there are Catholics who disagree with the teaching of the Church, say on contraception and extra-marital sex, but unlike Protestantism and/or Bible-onlysim, we have universal authority, as you yourself admitted. You dont have that still you rely on the authority of your church/denomination, after al you believe that your church teaches biblically according to your interpretation of Scripture, dont you? While you wont admit it indirectly you believe that your church/denomination is infallible. Scripture refers the Church as Christ Body and Bride. You cannot have Christ and reject His Church at the same time. To this day the Catholic CHurch never changes her teaching on Justification she never accepts Justification by faith alone, which you abide. Reply
raj April 20, 2011 at 4:38 pm The fallacy of equivocation is when one uses the same term in a different sense. http://www.fallacyfiles.org/equivoqu.html Vivator does this with the meaning of the word church. When the New Testament uses the word church it isnt referring to the Roman Catholic church. To assume otherwise is also to
commit another fallacy, begging the question. http://www.fallacyfiles.org/begquest.html Reply
Will May 2, 2011 at 9:11 pm Perhaps Vivator, you could tell us on why this papal decree does not apply to you: Pope Alexander IV (1254-1261) in Sextus Decretalium, Lib. V, c. ii: We furthermore forbid any lay person to engage in dispute, either private or public, concerning the Catholic Faith. Whosoever shall act contrary to this decree, let him be bound in the fetters of excommunication. Looks to me like your universal authority isnt so universal, and that you have privately interpreted and opposed a clear papal directive. Reply
vivator May 3, 2011 at 6:09 pm You confused church discipline with dogma the former is changeable while the latter is not. Example of the former is fasting before Eucharist, at present Catholics are required to fast one hour in the past it is used to be longer. Other example is priest celibacy in the western Catholic Church. Eastern Catholic Church allows married men to be ordained priests to this day, so did the western Church in the past we even had married Pope. Whether the Church will change it or not depends on Pope decision. The decree you quoted is found in 1909 Catholic Encyclopedia (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05034a.htm). 1917 Code of Canon Law, canon 1325 still forbade Catholics to engage in debates or conferences with non-Catholics without dispensation. Since it was church discipline, it was superseded by later papal decree. Thus the late Pope Paul VI wrote (emphasis in bold added): The Sacred [Vatican II] Council exhorts a ll the Catholic faithful to recognize the signs of the times and to take an active and intelligent part in the work of ecumenism. Catholics, in their ecumenical work, must assuredly be concerned for their separated brethren, praying for them, keeping them informed about the Church, making the first approaches toward them. The attainment of union is the concern of the whole Church, faithful and shepherds alike. This concern extends to everyone, according to his talent, whether it be exercised in his daily Christian life or in his theological and historical research. (Unitatis redintegratio, 4-5) For complete text of Unitatis Redintegratio click http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vatii_decree_19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html Thanks to http://catholicus-maximus.ning.com/ for the information.
Pingkian July 15, 2008 at 3:40 am

Hi There. I am butting in. I dont intend to be rude or hostile or negative. If I sound that way, it is not my intention. Im hurt to read the comments and replies before my own. I stumbled onto your blog b/c you had commented on mine first. Im hurt because you (a Catholic) and the others and the protestants are all individuals who believe (Im assuming, please forgive if Im mistaken) that Jesus of Nazareth is the only begotten Son of God who became flesh so as to live a sinless life to be the spotless Lamb of God who took away the sins of the world. You all believe that He died, was buried, and was risen, and lives as Lord or lords. You all confess that you are sinful and need Jesus in your life as Savior. Many believers under the vast umbrella of Christendom have a common belief in these and other essential teachings. Praise God! Yes? Many more believers under the vast umbrella of Christendom have variations in their beliefs that contradict and clash, but are non-essential doctrines and dogmas. Yes? We can nitpick at each others doctrines until the cows come home (weird saying). But in the end, we will see many people in heaven that we argue and event hate (yikes) and we will be embarrassed because we will all probably find that we got a lot of things wrong. But the great thing is that we got the important stuff right. Amen? So, I think we different people who believe and follow the Lord Jesus Christ in different ways, people who call on the One True God, are being watched by the majority of the world who are lost and are under the blinding veil of sin and the devil. They are the ones we need to minister to. The lost are the ones we need to share Christ with. They are the ones we need to target with our blogs. They are the ones that scoff at all of us because we preach Christ, yet we pull each other down. If a Hindu, or Muslim were to stumble onto this blog, after reading your posts (good stuff by the way (this from a protestant-bibleonlyist) . If they begin to ponder and become interested and drawn to Christ by your post and continue to read the comments, and see that Christendom is quarreling amongst itself, how then will they think of what we each say? John 13:35 By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another. I URGE YOU AND, THE REST, NOT TO GLORIFY YOUR DENOMINATION OR CHURCH OF CHOICE OR BIBLE OF CHOICE OR WHATEVER. BUT GLORIFY GOD. DELETE THE COMMENTS PEOPLE PLACE THAT ARE FRUITLESS. KEEP THE GOOD. Reply
Andrea Ludwig July 19, 2008 at 9:05 am It was interesting to read about your spiritual journey here. I do not agree that Jesus ever said on this rock {Catholicism} I will build my church. Incidentally, no one taught me to dislike Catholicism. I just came to my own conclusions while reading the Bible and being led by the Holy Spirit. He promises to lead us into all truth. Reply
Andrea Ludwig
July 20, 2008 at 9:34 pm I would like to formally apologize for being arrogant, though, in my past discussions with you. I walked right in to that one, didnt I? Meaning, you state here that you hate the arroagance of born again Christians, and I was certainly arrogant and adamant about my beliefs. I am still adamant but I can lose the attitude. =) Reply
Bob Nagel July 30, 2008 at 12:28 am I stumbled upon this blog and I have to say, thank you for writing this piece. I too had a very similar situation (to a lesser degree: I never attended their Sunday service, only their Friday night worships) this past year, as a sophomore at college. Navigators challenged my comfort in the Catholic way, if by undermining my core confidence in the Church and faith. The common phrasing was, its a relationship, not a religion. I began questioning this idea by saying, why not both? This problem was not all-encompassing, as you noted, since there were wonderful people in Navigators who really had a tolerance for different opinions. Of course, God always provides a lesson from tempation, as I have become obsessed in learning all the ins-and-outs of the Church, the beliefs, the reasoning, the Tradition, the Magisterium, etc. All of this has brought me closer to God, and I cannot be any more happier than I am tonight. Thank you again, as I had been searching for someone who had dealt with a similar experience and found peace in the Church as a result. Reply
jeegie312 March 2, 2010 at 11:19 pm its a relationship, not a religion. re-legio =to tie (bind ) again, it is actually our relationship with GOD. religion and relationship is all the same play of words.. Reply
Samson October 22, 2008 at 11:55 am First of all, i used to be member of The Navigators when i was in undergraduate. The problem with The Navigators is because their teaching is somewhere between orthodox protestantism and revivalism movement, so in most of the part of this world, their position always stucked between those two giant protestant body. Actually many protestants see The Navigators teach some ecumenical missionary/evangelism, in that sense its not surprising if there are many catholics join The Navigators as i had seen back then in my college days. So , my first opinion about this blogger story, that she aboviously knows little and shallow about protestantism. And she depart from very weak stephold to be her/his to be stabbed back to her/his protestantism as far as accoding his/her own claim.
Catholics would never have problem with The Navigators. The superiority of The Navigators method lies in their simple, discernable and very practical for layman to grasp the essence of christian faith, which is very crucial and critical phase for every baby-faith to have strong ground to grow, e.g. the assurance of salvation. Secondly, about diverging interpretation of scriptura solaist amongst the alleged protestantism movement, once again, the blogger posed a false problem, not only in fact there are myriads of catholic orders, cults, subcultures and genres, but also catholicism in the 21th centuries shows its compromities with most popular ideologies and movements, from evolution darwinism, socialism, and even nazi-ism. Then why should bother with protestantism ? Anyway it is the blogger attempt to separate Reformation paradigma sola fide-sola gratia-sola scriptura-sola cristo-sola ecclesia, into an impulsive notion of peticularization of sola scriptura, which most catholic scholars will doom it under sola scriptura is not biblical condemnation. Lastly, in modern protestantism such as Karl Barth, Kierkegaard and so on, bible is not regarded as the revelation of God, BUT, it refers to The True Revelation of God, vis a vis, only JESUS is The Only True Revelation of God. In this sense and perspective there is NO discripancies amongst JESUS-onlyist believers. Only Holy Spirit can move person to JESUS-only faith, and the SAME SPIRIT gives every believer very distictive and unique gift and manifestations. This THE SAME SPIRIT is what Jesus means as THE FOUNDATION of His church (please re-read the full account of matthew 16:18, Peter was moved by Holy the SAME Spirit to be Jesus-onlyist, the SAME SPIRIT that move and call new believers in this modern days). THIS IS THE ROCK, the very foundation of UNIVERSAL church, every where even in the planets out of this earth, the UNIVERSE, the SAME SPIRIT can call a soul to be JESUS-onlyist. .. why bother rome or even jerusalem . ?? Reply
vivator October 22, 2008 at 9:28 pm Dear Samson, Thank you for your feedback. Let me clarify first that I am a male. While I never claim I know everything about either Catholcism or Protestantism, before you conclude that I know little about Protestantism, I recommend you to read my posts on Justification, salvation, baptism. Any Catholic who join Navigators will be eventually driven away from Catholic Church, regardless whether the person who invites him/her has such intention or not. My evangelical mentor, being Navigators trained person, used their technique to implant and cultivate versesProtestantism in me. If you have no problem with different interpretation of the Bible then it is your problem. Because we are humans with freedom Catholics may individually disagree on some teachings or practices but very few will go and establish their own churches if they do they are no longer part of the Church. Compare it with Protestant churches even those with the same generic name, i.e. Baptist or Anglican, may not believe the same thing. Scripture refers the Church as Christ Body and Bride, not Bodies and Brides. A Body does have parts and members, each has distinct function but they act as one (1 Cor 12) if one part suffers the whole Body also suffers. Protestant and Bible only churches, while all profess to be Christ centered, they dont act together as one Body (even if they belong to the same denomination). Reply
Nathan Lee Lewis December 23, 2008 at 12:22 am
Great site and great mission Vivator! Please lets dialogue. I almost came to the Catholic Church before finding Orthodoxy. I love The Coming Home Network and became friends with Jim Anderson there. Reply
Jim S February 15, 2009 at 9:14 am The Lord called me to lead a bible study in a convelescent hospital. There are both Catholics and Protestant believers. A while back one of the residents stated boldly; The Roman Catholic Church is the only real church of God Then another resident added, no the prodestant church is the real church of God. Then one of my favorites in the group, quitely yet firmly declared: There is one God, and one Church. This 100 year old women named Frankie said it so well. By the way, I was brought up in the Catholic Faith, became an athiest. The Lord saved me in 1988. I have been an evangelical since. I am strongly considering worshipping in the Catholic faith. Why ? Many reasons. But perhaps the main one is simply that I feel called by God. He has revealed to me the changes made in the Catholic Church that He has implimented. Without comprimise. The Lord is saying to my spirit that I will be used for His Great Commission in a more fruitful way in the Roman Catholic Church. Is there only one church ? Yes. Does that mean that all beleievers are in the Catholic Church only ? No. For this one man, it simply means the Lord of hosts will forgive us our sins if we will humble ourselves undo belief. The very faith to believe is from Him, although God has always exspressed himself in humanity. The best example of this is that He came in the humanity of Christ. God has always used humanity, starting with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, all the way to right now. God will continue to use us in His great commission to save whom ever He will save. The part of that equation that we cant seem to grasp is that He would want that none would perish, and that all would have everlasting life. Did our Lord and Savior not die for all ? Ofcoarse He did. Faith comes from hearing the Word of God. Does God use us to spread the Word ? Does God embrace that there can be many dem=nominations of Christianity ? Was it His will for these numerous groups of beleievers ? Perhaps not ! Although He works all things for good for those who Love God, according to His will and purpose. His purpose is that we would have unity and Love to reach the lost. As for this one man, I simply believe He is calling this one man to worship in my Catholic roots, for Him to work through me I pray that all beleievers will have the unity in the Spirit. Let us dowse the flames of the evil one. He has always and will always divide us, if we fall for his lies. When I say us, I mean all beleivers. The body of Christ is the Church. Plus nothing. If our enemy can divide us in our Love, he will prevail. Let us reflect on: 1st. Corinthians; Knowledge puffs up, but Love builds up. Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth, It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails Brother Jim Reply
Tod Zechiel February 22, 2009 at 6:29 pm Actually, the Navigators now have a Catholic ministry for Catholics teaching doctrine from the Roman Catholic church. It is called the Navigator Catholic Discipleship and is run by Navigator staff Mr. Richard Cleveland. Please see his website http://www.emmausjourney.org/
I would anticipate that the Protestant arm of the Navigators will eventually have some type of sensitivity training toward Catholics as more Navigator staff become familiar with the tension you describe above. Reply
Mike March 1, 2009 at 1:44 am Just passing by.Btw, you website have great content! _________________________________ Making Money $150 An Hour Reply
Michele July 28, 2009 at 8:01 am Wonderful witness Reply
black hattitude October 17, 2009 at 6:15 am hello, thanks for the great quality of your blog, each time i come here, im amazed. black hattitude. Reply
Roger November 2, 2009 at 11:26 pm I hope that it is not too late for you to re-examine the basis for your return to Rome. After all, objective truth both historical and Scriptural, ought to be more important than ego and the confirmation bias. You wrote: Then the words of Christ in the Gospel gave the answer: And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the power of death shall not prevail against it (Matthew 16:18, RSV). I knew I must return home, to the Church Christ promised to be built on Peter. I never look back. Given then the importance of this pivotal interpretation for you (that Peter is the rock upon which the church is built)- had you given any thought to whether this interpretation passed the doctrine test established by the Roman Catholic Church itself? For the benefit of your readers, here is that test for correct doctrine: Furthermore, to check unbridled spirits, it decrees that no one relying on his own judgment shall, in
matters of faith and morals pertaining to the edification of Christian doctrine, distorting the Holy Scriptures in accordance with his own conceptions, presume to interpret them contrary to that sense which holy mother Church, to whom it belongs to judge of their true sense and interpretation, has held and holds, or even contrary to the unanimous consent of the Fathers, even though such interpretations should never at any time be published. The Council of Trent, 4th Session, the Canonical Scriptures, Rockford:Tan (1978), pp. 18-19 The First Vatican Council, meeting in 1869-70, reaffirmed Trents position: And as the things which the holy Synod of Trent decreed for the good of souls concerning the interpretation of Divine Scripture, in order to curb rebellious spirits, have been wrongly explained by some, we, renewing the said decree, declare this to be their sense, that, in matters of faith and morals, appertaining to the building up of Christian doctrine, that is to be held as the true senseof Holy Scripture which our holy Mother Church hath hel and holds, to whom it belongs to judge of the true sense and interpretation of the Holy Scripture; and therefore that it is permitted to no one to interpret the Sacred Scripture contrary to this sense, nor, likewise, contrary to the unanimous consent of the Fathers.Philip Schaff, Dogmatic Decrees of the Vatican Council, as found in The Creeds of Christendom, Vol II, New York:Harper (1877), p. 242 These two decrees dogmatically affirm that: 1) Only the Roman Catholic church has the authority to accurately interpret Scripture. 2) No one, not even the RCC herself, is to hold an interpretation contrary to the unanimous consent of the Fathers. This means Rome has given us a standard, an authoritative Roman Catholic standard, which we may use in judging the RCC. By this standard then we can examine the doctrine of Petrine supremacy, and learn that no unanimous consent of the Fathers exists for this dogma. In fact it is quite the opposite, the early church Fathers almost universally interpreted the rock of Matthew 16:18 to be Peters confession of Christ or Christ himself, rather than Peter. William Webster did a thorough study of this in his book The Matthew 16 Controversy. Reply
vivator November 4, 2009 at 8:09 pm Dear Roger, So now you agree that no Catholics can make their own doctrine. You are wrong to say that eraly church fathers universally interpret the rock in Matthew 16:18 to be Peters confession of Christ or Christ. below is what Irenaeus, bishop of Lyon wrote in around 170 AD, showing primacy of Church of Rome: Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil selfpleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre-eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere. The blessed apostles, then, having founded and built up the Church, committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate. Of this Linus, Paul makes mention in the Epistles to Timothy [2 Timothy 3:21]. To him succeeded Anacletus; and after him, in the third place from the apostles,
Clement was allotted the bishopric. This man, as he had seen the blessed apostles, and had been conversant with them, might be said to have the preaching of the apostles still echoing [in his ears], and their traditions before his eyes. Nor was he alone [in this], for there were many still remaining who had received instructions from the apostles. Irenus, Against Heresies, Book III, Chapter 3.2-3 Extracted from Anti Nicene Fathers, Vol. 1 Reply
Mike June 11, 2010 at 9:38 pm I did a little homework on this, reading William Websters: Scripture and the Facts of History Compel Me, a Former Roman Catholic, to Remain a Committed Evangelical Protestant. You should be able to find this with a Google search. A few excerpts: Johann Joseph Ignaz von Dllinger taught Church history as a Roman Catholic for 47 years and was one of the greatest and most influential historians in the Roman Church of the 19th century. He sums up the Eastern and Western understanding of Matthew 16 in the patristic period in these comments: In the first three centuries, St. Irenaeus is the only writer who connects the superiority of the Roman Church with doctrine; but he places this superiority, rightly understood, only in its antiquity, its double apostolical origin, and in the circumstance of the pure tradition being guarded and maintained there through the constant concourse of the faithful from all countries. Tertullian, Cyprian, Lactantius, know nothing of special Papal prerogative, or of any higher or supreme right of deciding in matter of doctrine. In the writings of the Greek doctors, Eusebius, St. Athanasius, St. Basil the Great, the two Gregories, and St. Epiphanius, there is not one word of any prerogatives of the Roman bishop. The most copious of the Greek Fathers, St. Chrysostom, is wholly silent on the subject, and so are the two Cyrils; equally silent are the Latins, Hilary, Pacian, Zeno, Lucifer, Sulpicius, and St. Ambrose. Of all the Fathers who interpret these passages in the Gospels (Matt. xvi.18, John xxi.17), not a single one applies them to the Roman bishops as Peters successors. How many Fathers have busied themselves with these texts, yet not one of them whose commentaries we possess Origen, Chrysostom, Hilary, Augustine, Cyril, Theodoret, and those whose interpretations are collected in catenashas dropped the faintest hint that the primacy of Rome is the consequence of the commission and promise to Peter! Not one of them has explained the rock or foundation on which Christ would build His Church of the office given to Peter to be transmitted to his successors, but they understood by it either Christ Himself, or Peters confession of faith in Christ; often both together. Or else they thought Peter was the foundation equally with all the other Apostles, the twelve being together the foundationstones of the Church. (Apoc. xxi.14). Roman Catholic historian, Yves Congar, readily acknowledges that the early Church fathers are not supportive of the teaching of Vatican I and that a consensus of the fathers is nonexistent regarding its dogmas. And from Irenaeus, Webster adds: Irenaeus, the second century church father, says: We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith. How did Irenaeus know what the apostles taught and preached orally? He has a record of it in
the written scriptures. What the Scriptures and Irenaeus are telling us is that the Church is built upon the gospel as it is defined in the written word of God: For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek (Rom 1:16). In Him you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvationhaving also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise (Eph 1:13). Reply
Mike June 16, 2010 at 9:19 pm Did some boning-up about Irenaeus and learned that he held many non-Catholic positions. Irenaeus criticized they who gather their views from other sources than the Scriptures as heretics. He believed in sola scritura, for both the material and formal sufficiency. Irenaeus believed that Scripture and the churchs unwritten tradition are identical in content. Irenaeus rejected the Apocrypha. Irenaeus believed in the perspicuity of Scripture. Irenaeus did not hold the Roman Catholic view of tradition as a second source of revelation, nor did he believe tradition was divinely authoritative. Whew! Now I see why the Pope himself has written that the early church fathers are dangerous grounds for support on many questions. Reply
vivator June 18, 2010 at 7:30 pm Mike, refer to my post on 18 June to read my response
vic April 22, 2011 at 9:54 pm Hello Vivator, I hope it is mere oversight on your part to falsely accuse Roger of making the claim that the early church fathers universally interpret the rock in Matthew 16:18 to be Peters confession of Christ or Christ. His actual words were almost universally. You did not address his main point, instead changing the subject to Petrine primacy. What of his main thrust, that the Vatican pronounced No one, not even the RCC herself, is to hold an interpretation contrary to the unanimous consent of the Fathers. And for the sake of intellectual honesty is it true that the majority of Church Fathers did NOT believe the rock was Peter? Thank you. Reply
vivator April 23, 2011 at 9:25 am Hi Vic, Why dont you investigate yourself whether the majority of Church Fathers believe the rock in Matthew 16:18 to be Peter confession of Christ? Some of their works in English are available online or at many libraries. The rest remains untranslated, which you can access at 217 volumes of Patrologia Latina (in Latin) and 166 volumes of Patrologia Graeca (in Greek). Do not rely either on Catholic or non-Catholic source (like Webster book) but examine and satisfy yourself.
LetYesBeYes January 15, 2012 at 2:03 pm This should help: The Patristic Exegesis of the Rock of Matthew 16:18, The Most Extensive Documentation of the Patristic Understanding of the Rock of Matthew 16 in the English Language, Spanning the Third to the Eighth Centuries. Compiled by William Webster http://www.christiantruth.com/articles/fathersmt16.html
vivator January 15, 2012 at 6:26 pm Thank you for the comment. I did read Webster other book The Church of Rome at the bar of history. For those who did not bother to double check his claims what he wrote is pretty convincing, i.e. when he defended Protestant 66-book Bible as legitimate canon. Because I did some study I found out he covered up facts that did not support his hypothesis. In short his works are neither historically reliable nor trustworthy. You may read what I wrote about his hypothesis that the canon of the Bible is the 66 books of Protestant Bible in: http://vivacatholic.wordpress.com/2010/07/18/how-reliable-william-webster-study-oncanon-of-old-testament/
LetYesBeYes January 16, 2012 at 9:42 am Wikipedia describes how John Henry Newman coined the term poisoning the well to describe a rhetorical device where adverse information about a target is pre-emptively presented to an audience, with the intention of discrediting or ridiculing everything that the target person is about to say. This is what youve done here: the issue was the Rock of Matthew 16 then you switch to the subject of canonicity, where you have an apparent difference of opinion with Mr. Webster; thus amounting to a red herring argument too.
Is this the level of reasoning I can expect from Catholic apologists? Should we hold you to the same standard whereby allegations of error on your part should discredit everything else you say? Nevertheless I looked at your critique of Websters work on canonicity http://vivacatholic.wordpress.com/2010/07/18/how-reliable-william-webster-study-oncanon-of-old-testament/ and found it unpersuasive. Aside from the difficulty of following your writing: no quotes around the Webster citations, awkward syntax, etc., one has to slash past a number of logical errors: hasty conclusions, arguments from silence, equivocations, and anachronisms, to mention a few. This makes one wonder whether your aim is simply to defend your Roman Catholic presuppositions, or whether you truly seek the objective truth.
vivator January 16, 2012 at 6:57 pm If Webster is not reliable and not trustworthy in his works on canon of Scripture, what makes you think I have to believe in what he wrote on papacy? You defended him because what he wrote meets your agenda while mine does not. You are fully entitled to have your opinion and so am I. Discussion is closed.
Roger November 5, 2009 at 6:48 pm Dear Vivator, You write: So now you agree that no Catholics can make their own doctrine. Actually, no. What I said quite plainly is that Rome establishes doctrine but that individual Catholics make their own private interpretations of those doctrines, thus the cafeteria-style Catholicism practiced by so many. You say Im wrong about the earliest interpretations of the rock in Matthew 16:18 by quoting Irenaeus, with no reference at all to the rock of Matthew 16. There are over forty early church fathers who interpreted the rock of Matthew 16 differently than you do, from Augustine and Athanasius to Gregory the Great, and Jerome, and Origen. I do see that Irenaeus of Lyons believed in the second century that Peter and Paul had been the founders of the Church in Rome and had appointed Linus as succeeding bishop. Your quote, to be fair, is more about a (purported) papal succession than to a Petrine primacy. Regarding Petrine primacy, it is eminently important to know the early church fathers interpretation of the rock in Matthew 16. If your interpretation of the rock is correct, it seems reasonable to expect many or most of these early church fathers to agree with you. Am I to understand that you prefer to see this your way, against the clear teaching of the Council of Trent and Vatican I not to interpret Scripture against the unanimous consent of the Fathers?
Reply
vivator November 5, 2009 at 9:32 pm Dear Roger, It seems you missed this sentence: For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre-eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere. Irenaeus wrote not only about apostolic succession but also the primacy of Church of Rome. You riased the issue of different interpretation of rock in Matthew 16. In fact Catechism of the Catholic Church # 424 says: On the rock of this faith confessed by St. Peter, Christ built his Church. and # 881: The Lord made Simon alone, whom he named Peter, the rock of his Church. Reply
Roger November 6, 2009 at 7:30 pm Dear Vivator: Your argument in support of Petrine primacy is conditional upon the final clause: ,inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere. Your citation is about succession, a hotly contested succession, as this citation from Wikipedia states: Regarding the Roman Catholic interpretation of Matthew 16:18-19, Jaroslav Pelikan writes, As Roman Catholic scholars now concede, the ancient Christian father Cyprian used it to prove the authority of the bishopnot merely of the Roman bishop, but of every bishop, referring to Maurice Bevenots work on St. Cyprian. FYI: Wikipedia uses the Irenaeus quote under the rubric of Apostolic succession. So the argument stands, you cannot show a unanimous consent of the Fathers regarding the interpretation of the rock, and apparently the matter is still not settled: CCC #424 says: On the rock of this FAITH confessed by St. Peter, Christ built his Church. CCC #552 says: Christ, the living Stone, thus assures his Church, built on Peter, of victory over the powers of death. Because of the faith he confessed Peter will remain the unshakable rock of the Church. CCC #881 says: The Lord made Simon alone, whom he named Peter, the rock of his Church. Which is it? Peters faith? Peter himself? It cannot be both: things that are different are not the same. Reply
miniRJ May 1, 2013 at 6:41 pm Roger you are correct The evidence is overwhelmingly against Romes interpretation of Matthew 16:18-19. Pretty well
strips them of their biggest scripture support for the papacy http://web.archive.org/web/20080724090630/http://www.christiantruth.com/fathersmt16.html Reply
vivator November 6, 2009 at 7:34 pm Dear Roger, If your knowledge is based on book written by former Catholic and Wikipedia then no wonder you have negative perception on the Catholic Church. Irenaeus ststement is crystal clear in showing the primacy of Church of Rome you dont need to be rocket scientist to do tha. There books written by Catholics that provide historical supports of papacy but if you already make your mind not to accept it, you will never accept it. Discussion is closed on this matter. Reply
Rohini December 27, 2009 at 3:09 am Thank you Vivator. You are a true apologist. You managed to say everything I always knew to be true! I had a similar journey as you because in my family, we were cultural Catholics, though God-fearing. I was never taught properly about the riches of grace in our wonderful Roman Catholic Church and drifted into Protestantism because I was so attracted by their emphasis on the personal love of God. That is one thing I really appreciate about the Protestants. Also, I am a verbal learner and I loved the emphasis on the Word of God. It took me a few years to discern their heresies. But again, I have to thank them because they confused me so much so as to make me want to explore the riches of my own Catholic faith I love the Word more than ever now because 2 days at a Charismatic Catholic Retreat in Mumbai gave me a peace that 10 years of Bible reading and Protestant interpretation could not do. In fact, I was confused beyond imagining and may have put many people off Christianity during those years. The reason Im writing this is to express the answers to common Protestant challenges in a coherent manner (and without getting into an oral quarrel which just leaves bad feelings). Ive experienced the less than respectful attitude of the Protestants towards the Church, I remember their contemptuous looks whenever the word Catholic was mentioned, all of which has played on my mind and pushed me to get to the bottom of the whole Truth which I have done in a very objective way, if I say so myself. I would challenge my priests and family with the same questions and knew all the answers typically given by the Catholic Church but this retreat gave me such integrated Scriptural knowledge and an experience of the Holy Spirit. Protestant preachers are fond of talking about authority (usually to serve their own interests). Well, Martin Luther and Henry VIII evidently didnt think obedience was so important. The stakes were HUGE but they thought nothing of tearing the Body of Christ into fragments for their own selfish ends. No wonder they are called wolves in sheeps clothing! Martin Luthers problem was that he had a troubled relationship with his father, he was superstitious and suffered from a guilt neurosis which is basically unbelief and denial of Christs saving work.. HE was the one who refused grace through the sacraments and the doctrine of sanctification along with them. If he had lived in this century he would have been diagnosed with OCD, going to Confession sometimes several times a day!! And the fruit of this schism he ran off with a nun and had four kids. Every pastor who defects to start a new denomination cannot have much use for obedience to authority. Who appoints this authority anyway? It is self-appointed!
Ive experienced both Catholicism and Protestantism and I know without a shadow of a doubt which one is the TRUE CHURCH: Catholicism WORKS! It is not a Church of works! If, by works, you mean ongoing sanctification, then, yes. The Protestants have twisted the words grace, faith and works altogether, to create a loophole where none exists. The Catholic Church preaches GRACE which gives us the OPPORTUNITY to REPENT. Heaven was opened for us; It was accessible to us, Christ did not win us an unconditional pass to eternal life. Run in such a way that you may obtain the prize. Repentance must be coupled with BELIEF or FAITH and then, produce fruit. Faith without works is dead. Catholics do not try to EARN salvation; no one can! Salvation was Gods initiative but there must be an ongoing response to His gracious Initiative. Good works are simply the fruit, a grateful response, as it were, to His grace, not a duty and a burden. Gods Justice cannot sentimentally overlook peoples sin and say Oh now, theyve accepted My Son so I will dress them up in white robes and make them look pure and holy! Christs grace is to give us the OPPORTUNITY to grow in sanctification through the sacraments and prayer and the Eucharist. Protestants take salvation for granted; their presumption of salvation as a one-time event is masqueraded as humility, a deadly and false humility. How can you deny Christs saving work? they ask, appalled. The Catholic position does not deny Christs saving work, She doesnt want believers to fall into presumption. Would you, as a Judge, have clemency on a person who misused your mercy and grace? Only witness the sad decadence of nations that have embraced this heresy the permissiveness of the European and American society and political system are proof positive of the consequences of twisting the Gospel. Making God out to be a sentimental fool who is not concerned with our attitudes or behaviour after accepting Christ as Lord and Saviour is no better than Muslims believing the silly notion that God in His Infinite sentimentality, miraculously substituted Jesus with some other person on the Cross! DO CATHOLICS BELIEVE IN THE WORD OF GOD? EVERYTHING has a scriptural base in the Catholic Church if you sincerely want to know the Truth, read Rome Sweet Home by Scott and Kimberley Hahn and Francis Beckwiths Return to Rome. Do CATHOLICS WORSHIP MARY AND THE SAINTS? NO! We do not worship Mary nor the saints. We only worship the Triune God. Mary is to be venerated and revered in her role in Gods plan of salvation. When we say the Rosary, we are repeating SCRIPTURE i.e the HOLY SPIRITS WORDS through ELIZABETH and the ANGEL GABRIEL. This sanctifies us; it gives us a dose of grace. Also, the Rosary is a plea asking Mary to pray FOR us, much as you would ask someone in your prayer group or your mother to pray for you. We are praying TO God WITH Mary. Jesus grew in obedience and though God is Sovereign, Jesus can never refuse Mary anything. The prayer of a righteous man availeth much. When she asked Him to turn water into wine, she precipitated the public ministry of Jesus, which she knew would lead to the Cross. Such is Marys concern for us, such is her selflessness. Whether spiritual or temporal, our petitions and prayers of thanksgiving get an extra special touch when presented to God through her. Im amazed how much the Protestants go ON and ON about Abraham, David, Jacob, Gideon, Esther, Ruth etc all of whom were very important in Gods long relationship with Israel. How can they, then, IGNORE the role of Jesus mother?!?! Mary our spiritual Mother (not divine), was given to us by Jesus Himself and our older brothers and sisters, the saints are Catholics who serve as an example through their life of prayer and penance in cooperation with Gods grace in their sanctification (remember, we have to work at it with fear and trembling). They are Gods gracious means of enabling us in our sanctification. Protestants take the verse about being saved by grace and not through works as a verse which denies the thunderous cry of the rest of Scripture. The narrow gate we have to walk is the tension between our flesh and our spiritual lives in Christ. Its something Luther would not handle and the Enemy tempted him to lead the Body of Christ to be torn apart. It continues to be torn apart by quibblers and charlatans everyday. There are 5 new denominations every week! If you have the intellectual and spiritual honesty, i.e, if you want to make an HONEST SEARCH, attend a Catholic Bible Study (done by Word Ministers, clergy or lay people), all your doubts and questions about the Church instituted by Christ Himself will be wiped away. There is never any
Protestant bashing at the Catholic Church. There is only patient longing for the Prodigal to come home. I challenge doubtful and stubborn Protestants to undergo Bible study from a Catholic source with respect, suspending prejudice and judgment, just as I did with Protestantism. If the Catholic Church were eager to get numbers, She would admit people without any lengthy initiation like RCIA. But She insists on Her members knowing the whole Truth and the scriptural basis for it. Not so, however, for Protestant megachurches! You can church-hop much like a job which is what it is to most Protestant preachers. There are sincere people among them, of course, but they have, as my friend Vivator says, a confused individualistic interpretation which breeds confused congregations who keep looking for answers and trying to get more faith so they can get God to bless them or more commonly still, to bless their finances. Regarding individual Bible Interpretation: It is inconceivable that God means for every individual to interpret the Bible for him/herself. That would mean 6 billion plus churches, all living unto themselves. That would be chaos and as you can see, it IS! I mean, the Protestant phenomenon is fertile ground for charlatans and prosperity gospel preachers. The Hmm, what can God do for me today? gospel is especially rife in the United States of America. Individualism is the scourge of the 20th and 21st centuries; it is what has bred Humanism which is a BIG enemy of Christianity. Civil rights to abort the unborn? Are civil rights above Gods law? The Protestants have created a monster! Honestly, if you take the Bible out of context, you can make the Word say anything you want It to. And you do! Protestant America has made a God in its own image a Capitalist Republican, with the US as His favourite, sanctioning any number of righteous wars against hapless nations like Vietnam, fighting Communism by force and guile. THAT is SELF-IDOLATRY; Roman Catholic priests never talk about money at all! It was Pope John Paul II who made endless efforts to bring down Communism in the USSR through prayer and diplomacy. That was just one of this charismatic and holy mans contributions. I could go and on about him. Idolatry is NOT the innocent representation of our Lords face and person. And neither are the Democrats any better; I would venture to say that humanists are the Anti-Christ. I cant even begin to address the 10,000 Protestant interpretations of the Book of Revelations and other books of the Bible which mostly star the USA as the worlds defender and hero and Israel as the helpless heroine. I mean, please. Get over yourselves. Regarding the Sacraments: The next disagreement with the Catholic Church is that we have rituals. They are only rituals for people who are lukewarm or who see them as such. Is Bible reading a ritual? It can be. I have had miraculous physical healings not once but TWICE after Confession (one of the best things about the Church), even though I may have told my friends the same weaknesses and failings a thousand times. The sacraments are abundant channels of Gods grace.! The consecrated priest administers Gods grace. Why have Protestants robbed their church by taking away the sacraments?!? Its a mistake of the Protestants to think that one has to be intellectual and clever to be redeemed. Even unlettered people who dont understand the Bible but come in simple faith, can be sanctified through the sacraments. The Separated Brethren have done themselves a great disservice and it saddens us. It is not sola scriptura nor sola fidelis. And by removing holy pictures and statues, icons etc, you are pretending that we are not human beings, humble creatures with senses! Gods grace is imbibed through our eyes, our ears, our hearts and so on, not just our intellects. One person may be inspired through the sight and fragrance of candles or a work of art like The Pieta. Or a beautiful painting or stained glass window. All of Creation for the Creator is Gods original purpose! Everything can be holy. Idol worship refers to FALSE idols, that is worship of creatures or worship of self. This does not refer to legitimate pictorial representations of the Lord and the Apostles, His mother, the Holy Angels, and the saints. We are not worshipping these statues, they are an aid to our creaturely senses. I may add that Protestant churches are the bleakest, most sterile looking buildings I have ever been in. There was this wonderful anthropologist on TV who explained that primitive tribes would adopt an animal as their mascot because they saw in that animal, characteristics that they felt they had and that made them successful. As strong as an ox, or graceful as a horse or sly as a serpent or wise as an owl, etc. That was the beginning of nature worship which is nothing but self-idolatry. That sounds exactly like what the American idea of God is. A Republican, wheeling
dealing Capitalist who wants your tithes. Humorously, he said that is the tithing system were in the New Covenant, the hymn books all over the world would have to be changed: One tenth to Jesus I surrender, one tenth to Him I freely give. Why does the Roman Catholic Church make such a big deal about Divorce, Euthanasia,Contraception and Abortion? Have you ever stood up for the unvarnished and unpopular Truth? And what has been your experience afterward? In the world, it has become fashionable and politically correct to bash the Roman Catholic Church. People only throw stones at fruit bearing trees. When unbelievers ridicule or reject Christians because of our zeal, we have no problem in believing that we are being persecuted! Thats exactly what the Catholic Church suffers. Which Protestant megachurch would be so unequivocal about grave issues like abortion and contraception, euthanasia and other Pro Life concerns? Or divorce, for that matter? It would be too afraid of losing members, maybe even the pastor himself. Or herself! Proud people mock at the Roman Catholic Church, but they have a grudging respect for Her all the same because She is more concerned about safeguarding the Truth than pandering to half baked, populist Christians. Do Catholics worship the Pope? The shocking thing is that people have dared to say that the Pope is the anti-Christ because the Roman Church using that same old misinformed line about Her being a Church of works! How prejudiced and how ignorant! The Pope is a fallible human being but he IS infallible ONLY in the matter of safeguarding faith and guiding morals. He can lose his temper. He is fallible. He can complain in suffering. He is fallible. He goes to Confession to a humble ordinary priest every week. God in His wisdom may decree something which to our human understanding may not seem democratic or humanist. However, when it comes to setting out the CODE of TRUTH and MORALS and FAITH, the Pope is Gods infallible instrument, through the Holy Spirit and the authority vested in him by Christ Himself. Paedophilia in the Church: The Church is made up of human beings. Priests are fallible. That does not mean they are not channels of Gods grace. The point is, the Church is for sinners to be redeemed and a priest can be redeemed if he truly repents of his sin, humbly accepts Gods grace and works on his own sanctification. The priest is consecrated, not like Protestants who marry and divorce numerous times. Talk about immorality! Celibacy can be a struggle but not everything that is a struggle is to be conveniently done away with. The Church is not trying to come up with some doctrinal innovation every other day, or a nuanced spiritual principle which gets God to make your life more pleasant, prosperous or exclusive. In other words, it is sincere, and not trying to sugarcoat the TRUTH. The Protestant Prosperity Gospel is a travesty of the Good News. Mostly, those preachers come back to what they know best sowing and reaping, tithing and harvesting a big raise, or huge growth in business etc. Mike Murdock is one example. Their belief is that Jesus Christ fully endorses capitalism and the American Way. Money is an obsession because Protestants believe there is no spiritual obligation left on earth, since they believe there is no need to grow in grace, they have figured out what to do with their time on earth grow RICH, PROSPER! They measure Gods favour by how wealthy and prosperous one is. Hence Benny Hinns big mansion and private jet, Joyce Meyers big mansion, flashy clothes and private jet, Creflo Dollars Rolls Royce, (a sign of Gods favour) and various others. Its the American Way! Protestant preachers tell you youre not blessed because you dont have enough faith and if you sow into their ministry, youll be blessed; Can Gods favour be measured through worldly prosperity? You got that job because you had Gods favour? So the other guy who didnt get it and goes to the same church as you, and more often, didnt, because he doesnt? Mary,the Mother of Jesus, was favoured but I doubt she was very rich. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3.
In short, the main difference between Protestant and Catholics is that the first denies the Cross of Christ and the second embraces it to attain fuller union with Him. Suffering is not the enemy. It may be allowed by God BECAUSE you have faith. He wants you to accept His Will, whether it seems pleasant or unpleasant to you. Its not always name it and claim it. Resignation to Gods Will is something that sanctifies us. I have seen the chaos and confusion and contempt and exclusivity of the Separated Brethren and I have seen the enduring devotion and humility of the Roman Catholic Church. YOU SHALL KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUIT. For the record, I consider myself to be an Evangelical Catholic God bless you. Reply
Will May 2, 2011 at 8:24 pm Vivators answer here in a nutshell shows the difference between Roman Catholicism and biblical Christianity: A purported interpretation by Irenaeus used to supersede the words of Christ. (even words of Christ as interpreted by a majority of EARLY church fathers). Reply
vivator May 3, 2011 at 4:52 pm When you wrote biblical Christianity, which one you are talking about? There are myriads of churches or denominations out there who claim that the Bible is their only authority yet they dont teach exactly the same thing.
Jim S. December 27, 2009 at 9:45 am WOW, Vivator I have need for clarification. Rohini, you said much Half baked populus christians. Lets not go on bashing. To stand firm for the Catholic faith is of God. The rest ! Well ??? I agree the protestant christians tend to bash more than the catholic. There is one God and One Church. Was Luther of God ? Yes. Was Luther and the Pope then and every pope since falable ? Yes, you said so yourself. Are we to say that only Catholic believers are of God ? Absolutely not. What we can say is that God would want that none would perrishOne God, One Church. You were pretty hard on the evangelical church. I understand that you are tired of the persecution for the Catholic Church. Oh well, condider it pure joy my brotha from anatha matha. You say your an evangelical Catholic, praise god. Keep in mind there are other believers to view and read your comments. Are they to draw neared to our Lord ? Or will they cause more division? Vivator;
As for my calling back to the Catholic faith, well ? I am a bit afraid to make the jump back to the Catholic mass. I find myself intimidated about the lack of my understanding of the mechanics of the service. Also please exspain what it is about the Sacraments that Rohini was discussing that I and my family may be lacking ? In Christ, Jim S. Reply
vivator December 28, 2009 at 10:21 am Hi Jim, Thank you for the comment. There are a number of things you raised in your comments. First about bashing evangelicals sorry if you feel that way and I can assure you I dont have that kind of intention. My intention is to share my thoughts on issues that divide us. Many evangelicals misunderstand Catholics belief and thats what I want to clarify it is OK with me if they disagree with Catholic teaching as long they disagree with what the Catholic Church really teaches, not with what they think she teaches. Is the Pope infallible? Yes, but under certain condition, i.e. not every word He says/writes will be infallible you can read Catechism of the Catholic Church # 888 to 892. Are only Catholics believers in God? Certainly not, you may read Catechism of the Catholic Church # 836. As about mechanics of the Mass and Sacraments, I would like to recommend you to read book by Thomas Howard: (1) Evangelical is not enough: Worship of God in Liturgy and Sacrament and (2) If your mind wanders at Mass. Reply
Hayzeus November 14, 2011 at 2:21 pm Hello vivator, Sorry, wasnt sure where to place this question: I wondered if you are a member of Opus Dei or any other RC fraternal organization(s)? Thank you!
vivator November 14, 2011 at 6:41 pm I am member of Knights of Columbus but not member of Opus Dei (numerary, supernumerary or associate).
Tod Zechiel February 13, 2010 at 3:05 pm Vivator:
Your website is one of the best Catholic apologetic sites Ive read. Given your past tension with the Protestant ministry of the Navigators, I took the liberty of referencing your site on the Navigators Facebook. See my post on 13 Saturday 2010 http://www.facebook.com/Navigators? v=wall&viewas=1827649144 Since the Navigators now have a Catholic ministry with Catholic staff and doctrine, I believe your site may help the Navigator Protestant staff understand the tension between Protestant and Catholic students within their respective ministries. Reply
Rohini June 14, 2010 at 2:18 am Let me paraphrase: The early Church Fathers did not agree that Peter was the appointed successor to Christ on earth; rather, Christ was building His Church on the fact that He was the Messiah and or/ that Peter confessed this truth. Id be willing to agree that the papacy is not infallible. However, the early Church Fathers collated the Scriptures that you call the infallible Word of God. How do you explain this? Why does anything have to be infallible? You dont trust yourself. Thats why there is so much confusion; everyone wants to be right and make the other fellow wrong. Its because people have a misdirected aggression towards others when anger should be pointed to the ridiculous Im right, youre wrong or Im wrong youre right dominance/ submission model. Christ said Im OK, Ive just made you OK Go ahead and enjoy yourself and enjoy Me. Please aim for psychological soundness rather than being theologically right; this is all just neurosis. Reply
Mike June 16, 2010 at 8:54 pm Rohini, I assume you wish to be right regarding your own comments? If not, why should one take what you say seriously? It is okay to believe in absolute truth. Christ did, He was no relativist: I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. And He was certainly not ridiculous to make such a dominant claim. Reply
Rohini June 18, 2010 at 1:56 am So Ireneus said Scripture and unwritten tradition are identical? There you go! Reply
raj April 20, 2011 at 5:13 pm Correct; when Scripture and tradition diverge you get heresy. Here is an example of where the Catholic cooperative (God and man) idea of salvation diverges from the biblical idea of salvation: Galatians 3:3, Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Will you bet your eternal life on the interpretations of men in Rome, or the clear Word of God that says salvation is started and completed by God alone. Galatians 3:10-15. Reply
vivator April 20, 2011 at 8:28 pm Dear Raj, Judging from the issue you raised I guess you are monergist. , You believe God saves us without our cooperation thats why you reject Catholic belief that God saves us with our cooperation or known as synergism. Contrary to what you wrote synergism is not Tradition but it is rooted in Scripture. In Revelation 3:20 while Jesus took the initiative to knock at our door, it is up to us to open the door to welcome Him or not note the conditional statement starting with if. In the parable of the wedding banquet (Matthew 22:1-14) the invited guests were able to reject the invitation and those who accept may be thrown out if they dont wear wedding gowns. The parable nowhere says the king will provide wedding gowns for those accept the invitation. I checked Galatians 3:10-15 it says something else, perhaps you want to cite from Philippians 1:6: And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ (RSV). Is this the verse that you think supports monergism? Well, I dont see the word alone or only in that verse, even in Greek, hence it does not support monergism. As an analogy, any good father will complete his duty to raise his children until they become mature and independent. Yet this require his children cooperation they may refuse, say by running away from home and joining the wrong crowd. If you need example of Tradition I can provide one: Apostolic succession. Catholics believe that the apostles appointed bishops as their successors and pass to them the authority they received from Christ. This will answer the issue you raised in your other comment. Because of this apostolic succession Catholics can claim that the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Christ. I wrote a number of posts related to monergism you can read them by clicking category monergism in my blog.
Rohini June 18, 2010 at 2:12 am Thank you Vivator. You are a true apologist. You managed to say everything I always knew to be true! I had a similar journey as you because in my family, we were cultural Catholics, though Godfearing. I was never taught properly about the riches of grace in our wonderful Roman Catholic
Church and drifted into Protestantism because I was so attracted by their emphasis on the personal love of God. That is one thing I really appreciate about the Protestants. Also, I am a verbal learner and I loved the emphasis on the Word of God. It took me a few years to discern their heresies. But again, I have to thank them because they confused me so much so as to make me want to explore the riches of my own Catholic faith I love the Word more than ever now because 2 days at a Charismatic Catholic Retreat in Mumbai gave me a peace that 10 years of Bible reading and Protestant interpretation could not do. In fact, I was confused beyond imagining and may have put many people off Christianity during those years. The reason Im writing this is to express the answers to common Protestant challenges in a coherent manner (and without getting into an oral quarrel which just leaves bad feelings). Ive experienced the less than respectful attitude of the Protestants towards the Church, I remember their contemptuous looks whenever the word Catholic was mentioned, all of which has played on my mind and pushed me to get to the bottom of the whole Truth which I have done in a very objective way, if I say so myself. I would challenge my priests and family with the same questions and knew all the answers typically given by the Catholic Church but this retreat gave me such integrated Scriptural knowledge and an experience of the Holy Spirit. Protestant preachers are fond of talking about authority (usually to serve their own interests). Well, Martin Luther and Henry VIII evidently didnt think obedience was so important. The stakes were HUGE but they thought nothing of tearing the Body of Christ into fragments for their own selfish ends. No wonder they are called wolves in sheeps clothing! Martin Luthers problem was that he had a troubled relationship with his father, he was superstitious and suffered from a guilt neurosis which is basically unbelief and denial of Christs saving work.. HE was the one who refused grace through the sacraments and the doctrine of sanctification along with them. If he had lived in this century he would have been diagnosed with OCD, going to Confession sometimes several times a day!! And the fruit of this schism he ran off with a nun and had four kids. Every pastor who defects to start a new denomination cannot have much use for obedience to authority. Who appoints this authority anyway? It is self-appointed! Ive experienced both Catholicism and Protestantism and I know without a shadow of a doubt which one is the TRUE CHURCH: Catholicism WORKS! It is not a Church of works! If, by works, you mean ongoing sanctification, then, yes. The Protestants have twisted the words grace, faith and works altogether, to create a loophole where none exists. The Catholic Church preaches GRACE which gives us the OPPORTUNITY to REPENT. Heaven was opened for us; It was accessible to us, Christ did not win us an unconditional pass to eternal life. Run in such a way that you may obtain the prize. Repentance must be coupled with BELIEF or FAITH and then, produce fruit. Faith without works is dead. Catholics do not try to EARN salvation; no one can! Salvation was Gods initiative but there must be an ongoing response to His gracious Initiative. Good works are simply the fruit, a grateful response, as it were, to His grace, not a duty and a burden. Gods Justice cannot sentimentally overlook peoples sin and say Oh now, theyve accepted My Son so I will dress them up in white robes and make them look pure and holy! Christs grace is to give us the OPPORTUNITY to grow in sanctification through the sacraments and prayer and the Eucharist. Protestants take salvation for granted; their presumption of salvation as a one-time event is masqueraded as humility, a deadly and false humility. How can you deny Christs saving work? they ask, appalled. The Catholic position does not deny Christs saving work, She doesnt want believers to fall into presumption. Would you, as a Judge, have clemency on a person who misused your mercy and grace? Only witness the sad decadence of nations that have embraced this heresy the permissiveness of the European and American society and political system are proof positive of the consequences of twisting the Gospel. Making God out to be a sentimental fool who is not concerned with our attitudes or behaviour after accepting Christ as Lord and Saviour is no better than Muslims believing the silly notion that God in His Infinite sentimentality, miraculously substituted Jesus with some other person on the Cross! DO CATHOLICS BELIEVE IN THE WORD OF GOD? EVERYTHING has a scriptural base in the Catholic Church if you sincerely want to know the Truth, read Rome Sweet Home by Scott and Kimberley Hahn and Francis Beckwiths Return to Rome.
Do CATHOLICS WORSHIP MARY AND THE SAINTS? NO! We do not worship Mary nor the saints. We only worship the Triune God. Mary is to be venerated and revered in her role in Gods plan of salvation. When we say the Rosary, we are repeating SCRIPTURE i.e the HOLY SPIRITS WORDS through ELIZABETH and the ANGEL GABRIEL. This sanctifies us; it gives us a dose of grace. Also, the Rosary is a plea asking Mary to pray FOR us, much as you would ask someone in your prayer group or your mother to pray for you. We are praying TO God WITH Mary. Jesus grew in obedience and though God is Sovereign, Jesus can never refuse Mary anything. The prayer of a righteous man availeth much. When she asked Him to turn water into wine, she precipitated the public ministry of Jesus, which she knew would lead to the Cross. Such is Marys concern for us, such is her selflessness. Whether spiritual or temporal, our petitions and prayers of thanksgiving get an extra special touch when presented to God through her. Im amazed how much the Protestants go ON and ON about Abraham, David, Jacob, Gideon, Esther, Ruth etc all of whom were very important in Gods long relationship with Israel. How can they, then, IGNORE the role of Jesus mother?!?! Mary our spiritual Mother (not divine), was given to us by Jesus Himself and our older brothers and sisters, the saints are Catholics who serve as an example through their life of prayer and penance in cooperation with Gods grace in their sanctification (remember, we have to work at it with fear and trembling). They are Gods gracious means of enabling us in our sanctification. Protestants take the verse about being saved by grace and not through works as a verse which denies the thunderous cry of the rest of Scripture. The narrow gate we have to walk is the tension between our flesh and our spiritual lives in Christ. Its something Luther would not handle and the Enemy tempted him to lead the Body of Christ to be torn apart. It continues to be torn apart by quibblers and charlatans everyday. There are 5 new denominations every week! If you have the intellectual and spiritual honesty, i.e, if you want to make an HONEST SEARCH, attend a Catholic Bible Study (done by Word Ministers, clergy or lay people), all your doubts and questions about the Church instituted by Christ Himself will be wiped away. There is never any Protestant bashing at the Catholic Church. There is only patient longing for the Prodigal to come home. I challenge doubtful and stubborn Protestants to undergo Bible study from a Catholic source with respect, suspending prejudice and judgment, just as I did with Protestantism. If the Catholic Church were eager to get numbers, She would admit people without any lengthy initiation like RCIA. But She insists on Her members knowing the whole Truth and the scriptural basis for it. Not so, however, for Protestant megachurches! You can church-hop much like a job which is what it is to most Protestant preachers. There are sincere people among them, of course, but they have, as my friend Vivator says, a confused individualistic interpretation which breeds confused congregations who keep looking for answers and trying to get more faith so they can get God to bless them or more commonly still, to bless their finances. Regarding individual Bible Interpretation: It is inconceivable that God means for every individual to interpret the Bible for him/herself. That would mean 6 billion plus churches, all living unto themselves. That would be chaos and as you can see, it IS! I mean, the Protestant phenomenon is fertile ground for charlatans and prosperity gospel preachers. The Hmm, what can God do for me today? gospel is especially rife in the United States of America. Individualism is the scourge of the 20th and 21st centuries; it is what has bred Humanism which is a BIG enemy of Christianity. Civil rights to abort the unborn? Are civil rights above Gods law? The Protestants have created a monster! Honestly, if you take the Bible out of context, you can make the Word say anything you want It to. And you do! Protestant America has made a God in its own image a Capitalist Republican, with the US as His favourite, sanctioning any number of righteous wars against hapless nations like Vietnam, fighting Communism by force and guile. THAT is SELF-IDOLATRY; Roman Catholic priests never talk about money at all! It was Pope John Paul II who made endless efforts to bring down Communism in the USSR through prayer and diplomacy. That was just one of this charismatic and holy mans contributions. I could go and on about him. Idolatry is NOT the innocent representation of our Lords face and person. And neither are the Democrats any better; I would venture to say that humanists are the Anti-Christ. I cant even begin to address the 10,000 Protestant interpretations of the Book of Revelations and other books of the Bible which mostly star the USA as the worlds defender and hero and Israel as the helpless heroine. I mean, please. Get over yourselves. Regarding the Sacraments:
The next disagreement with the Catholic Church is that we have rituals. They are only rituals for people who are lukewarm or who see them as such. Is Bible reading a ritual? It can be. I have had miraculous physical healings not once but TWICE after Confession (one of the best things about the Church), even though I may have told my friends the same weaknesses and failings a thousand times. The sacraments are abundant channels of Gods grace.! The consecrated priest administers Gods grace. Why have Protestants robbed their church by taking away the sacraments?!? Its a mistake of the Protestants to think that one has to be intellectual and clever to be redeemed. Even unlettered people who dont understand the Bible but come in simple faith, can be sanctified through the sacraments. The Separated Brethren have done themselves a great disservice and it saddens us. It is not sola scriptura nor sola fidelis. And by removing holy pictures and statues, icons etc, you are pretending that we are not human beings, humble creatures with senses! Gods grace is imbibed through our eyes, our ears, our hearts and so on, not just our intellects. One person may be inspired through the sight and fragrance of candles or a work of art like The Pieta. Or a beautiful painting or stained glass window. All of Creation for the Creator is Gods original purpose! Everything can be holy. Idol worship refers to FALSE idols, that is worship of creatures or worship of self. This does not refer to legitimate pictorial representations of the Lord and the Apostles, His mother, the Holy Angels, and the saints. We are not worshipping these statues, they are an aid to our creaturely senses. I may add that Protestant churches are the bleakest, most sterile looking buildings I have ever been in. There was this wonderful anthropologist on TV who explained that primitive tribes would adopt an animal as their mascot because they saw in that animal, characteristics that they felt they had and that made them successful. As strong as an ox, or graceful as a horse or sly as a serpent or wise as an owl, etc. That was the beginning of nature worship which is nothing but self-idolatry. That sounds exactly like what the American idea of God is. A Republican, wheeling dealing Capitalist who wants your tithes. Humorously, he said that is the tithing system were in the New Covenant, the hymn books all over the world would have to be changed: One tenth to Jesus I surrender, one tenth to Him I freely give. Why does the Roman Catholic Church make such a big deal about Divorce, Euthanasia,Contraception and Abortion? Have you ever stood up for the unvarnished and unpopular Truth? And what has been your experience afterward? In the world, it has become fashionable and politically correct to bash the Roman Catholic Church. People only throw stones at fruit bearing trees. When unbelievers ridicule or reject Christians because of our zeal, we have no problem in believing that we are being persecuted! Thats exactly what the Catholic Church suffers. Which Protestant megachurch would be so unequivocal about grave issues like abortion and contraception, euthanasia and other Pro Life concerns? Or divorce, for that matter? It would be too afraid of losing members, maybe even the pastor himself. Or herself! Proud people mock at the Roman Catholic Church, but they have a grudging respect for Her all the same because She is more concerned about safeguarding the Truth than pandering to half baked, populist Christians. Do Catholics worship the Pope? The shocking thing is that people have dared to say that the Pope is the anti-Christ because the Roman Church using that same old misinformed line about Her being a Church of works! How prejudiced and how ignorant! The Pope is a fallible human being but he IS infallible ONLY in the matter of safeguarding faith and guiding morals. He can lose his temper. He is fallible. He can complain in suffering. He is fallible. He goes to Confession to a humble ordinary priest every week. God in His wisdom may decree something which to our human understanding may not seem democratic or humanist. However, when it comes to setting out the CODE of TRUTH and MORALS and FAITH, the Pope is Gods infallible instrument, through the Holy Spirit and the authority vested in him by Christ Himself. Paedophilia in the Church: The Church is made up of human beings. Priests are fallible. That does not mean they are not channels of Gods grace. The point is, the Church is for sinners to be redeemed and a priest can be redeemed if he truly repents of his sin, humbly accepts Gods grace and works on his own sanctification. The priest is consecrated, not like Protestants who marry and divorce numerous times.
Talk about immorality! Celibacy can be a struggle but not everything that is a struggle is to be conveniently done away with. The Church is not trying to come up with some doctrinal innovation every other day, or a nuanced spiritual principle which gets God to make your life more pleasant, prosperous or exclusive. In other words, it is sincere, and not trying to sugarcoat the TRUTH. The Protestant Prosperity Gospel is a travesty of the Good News. Mostly, those preachers come back to what they know best sowing and reaping, tithing and harvesting a big raise, or huge growth in business etc. Mike Murdock is one example. Their belief is that Jesus Christ fully endorses capitalism and the American Way. Money is an obsession because Protestants believe there is no spiritual obligation left on earth, since they believe there is no need to grow in grace, they have figured out what to do with their time on earth grow RICH, PROSPER! They measure Gods favour by how wealthy and prosperous one is. Hence Benny Hinns big mansion and private jet, Joyce Meyers big mansion, flashy clothes and private jet, Creflo Dollars Rolls Royce, (a sign of Gods favour) and various others. Its the American Way! Protestant preachers tell you youre not blessed because you dont have enough faith and if you sow into their ministry, youll be blessed; Can Gods favour be measured through worldly prosperity? You got that job because you had Gods favour? So the other guy who didnt get it and goes to the same church as you, and more often, didnt, because he doesnt? Mary,the Mother of Jesus, was favoured but I doubt she was very rich. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3. In short, the main difference between Protestant and Catholics is that the first denies the Cross of Christ and the second embraces it to attain fuller union with Him. Suffering is not the enemy. It may be allowed by God BECAUSE you have faith. He wants you to accept His Will, whether it seems pleasant or unpleasant to you. Its not always name it and claim it. Resignation to Gods Will is something that sanctifies us. I have seen the chaos and confusion and contempt and exclusivity of the Separated Brethren and I have seen the enduring devotion and humility of the Roman Catholic Church. YOU SHALL KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUIT. For the record, I consider myself to be an Evangelical Catholic God bless you. Reply
Rohini June 18, 2010 at 2:15 am HOW OLD IS YOUR CHURCH? HOW OLD IS YOUR CHURCH? THIS IS A MOST INTERESTING QUESTION!!! THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION WILL ASTOUND MANY OF YOU! If you are a LUTHERAN, your religion was founded by Martin Luther, an ex-monk of the Catholic Church, IN THE YEAR 1517. If you belong to the CHURCH OF ENGLAND,
your religion was founded by King Henry VIII IN THE YEAR 1534, because the Pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to re-marry. If you are a PRESBYTERIAN, your religion was founded by John Knox in Scotland IN THE YEAR 1560. If you are a member of the CONGREGATIONALIST, your religion was originated by Robert Brown in Holland IN THE YEAR 1582. If you are a BAPTIST, you owe the tenets of your religion to your founder, John Smyth, who launched this denomination in the city of Amsterdam IN THE YEAR 1605. If you are of the DUTCH REFORMED CHURCH, you recognize Michaelis Jones as your founder, because he originated your religion in New York IN THE YEAR 1628. If you are a PROTESTANT EPISCOPALIAN, your religion was an offshoot of the Church Of England, and your offshoot was founded by Samuel Seabury in the American Colonies in the 17th Century. If you are a METHODIST, your religion was launched by John and Charles Wesley in England IN THE YEAR 1744. If you are a UNITARIAN, then Theophilus Lindley is the founder of your church, in London IN THE YEAR 1774. If you are a MORMON (LATTER DAY SAINTS) your modern religion was started by Joseph Smith in Palmyra, New York, IN THE YEAR 1829. If you worship with THE SALVATION ARMY, your sect began with Willian Booth in the city of London IN THE YEAR 1865. If you are a CHRISTIAN SCIENTIST, you recognize that your religion was begun by Mrs. Mary Baker Eddy IN THE YEAR 1879. If you belong to one of the religious organizations known as CHURCH OF THE NAZARENE, or PENTECOSTAL GOSPEL, Or HOLINESS CHURCH,
or PILGRIM HOLINESS CHURCH, or JEHOVAHS WITNESSES, Or any of the MULTIPLE THOUSANDS OF STOREFRONT CHURCHES, then your religion is one of the thousands of new sects founded by men WITHIN THE PAST 150 YEARS! If you are a ROMAN CATHOLIC, Then you know that your Church was founded IN THE YEAR 33 BY JESUS CHRIST, THE SON OF GOD, AND IT IS STILL THE SAME CHURCH!!! Reply
raj April 16, 2011 at 1:38 pm Really original there Rohini when you use other peoples material, maybe you should cite your sources. To Vivator: How do you decide what to keep and what to delete? I am told that you delete good hardhitting posts that disagree with you please tell me that isnt true. Especially as you allow posts from windbags like Rohini to stand. Reply
vivator April 16, 2011 at 3:18 pm Dear Raj, I do not delete comments from those who disagree with me pls browse all comments, you will see a number who disagree with me. I did reject some comments (I think less than 6 after four years), if they are written using sarcastic words. I also decided not to continue discussing with a person if I feel it does not lead to anywhere.
Rohini April 17, 2011 at 11:13 pm Actually, I dont know what the source is: I got it as a forward on the internet and I wanted to share it.
Sc59 April 1, 2013 at 5:20 pm word is getting around that you are not being honest here If you are in the right then let your readers decide.
vivator April 2, 2013 at 5:33 am Can you be more specific here? For sure I am NOT perfect I do make mistakes and am not consistent occasionally but this blog is not about me. Those who cannot argue may sometimes attack me personally like calling me liar, condemn me to hell etc. They are entitled to do so but they miss the point.
Sc59 April 2, 2013 at 5:52 pm Yes GTY ring a bell? Was a pretty good response you ignored. And no more pointed than many of your own postings.
vivator April 2, 2013 at 6:52 pm To answer your inquiry: 1. I am on vacation now and have limited and non-secure access to Internet and no access to my resources. 2. Any blogger reserves the right to publish or not to publish any comment without giving any reason. Some bloggers set rules to leave comments (which I dont) any comment not in line with those rules will be rejected. Thus it is NOT a matter of honesty but a matter of right. 3. I can recycle what I already wrote again it is not a matter of honesty but a matter of right.
Rajesh Louis November 20, 2010 at 2:58 am Blessed are the people who worship Jesus on this earth, being called for Eternal Salvation rather than Eternal Judgement How happy are we, that we love Jesus from all our heart , mind and soul , we have already placed a reservation in heaven.
Jesus is also very happy with everyone that more and more people are coming to him , but seems more confused now. It is being very tiring, now a days in heaven, all the angels and saints have been put to work by Jesus. The heaven has already been divided into thirty three thousand sections and work still in progress to build more. St John is showing that the church is indeed the Bride of Christ (Revelation 19:7-9), but we have 33000 churches now - Show quoted text Jesus is already being condemned by the satan to have more than 33000 brides wherereas this is very controrary in the bible. The Bible the most spiritual book for all the christians has become the most controversial book for all the christians. Oh no ! what is this , fights are taking place in heaven . Is it between Jesus and Satan ? i exclaimed. No no , somebody murmured..this fights are of every day now. Even Jesus does not know what to do now. His one of the apostles, St Peter it seems is not been allowed to enter in one of the sections in heaven. oh marvellous ! even his mother is not been allowed to enter in some sections oh wat is this The holy spirit is confused now..he has been highly called by some communities high & low. Feeling very sorry for St .John the baptist , He is sitiing alone with his community away from the apostles & Jesus. The whole heaven is filled with chaos, different types of worships going on.Jesus really does not know , where to go ????????? The early christians and the saints are being criticized very heavily for their oral traditions & Beliefs. Had it not been their oral traditions , the bible would not have been there and there would been no conflicts amongst the christians. The early christians are complaning to Jesus about the internet, languages, his mother and his qoute to let Peter to be the head of his church . They are constantly complaining about Jesus Hyperboles in his speech maily the ROCK has become the major issue. Satan is seen slowly creeping towards heaven gates, while Peter is busy negotiating with one of the communities in heaven. Oh, he is on a friendly visit to Jesus, asking his permission to give an advise to him for the current scenario in Heaven. why not have elections here in heaven ! satan exclaimed .which community is the bestit shud be a democratic christian community. Communities are excited , to prove themselves righteach one preparing to be true , but disgracing
the other. Satan seems very happy now..but Jesus is crying bitterly .his body is continously being divided. Sources say that Jesus has to die again now.Even God is unhappy , his only son is being sent to earth to die again & again. The whole heaven is filled with enmity now ..communities are fighting for the body of christ. Hey i cannot believe what i just saw in heaven, contradictory to the first line mentioned in this letter. Blessed are the people who worship Jesus on this earth, but are being called for Eternal Judgement rather than Eternal Salvation Ohhhhhhh it was a very horrible dream , but good it was only a dream.otherwise the number would have increased to 66,000. What are we doing brothers & sisters and why we are doing it .this is the question asked to each one of us. The body of Jesus is being contionously divided and the blood of Jesus is being scattered like a blood of a lamb slaughtered at a butchers den. Is this is what Jesus really wantsNoooo . Be CAREFUL rather , Cos at the day of Eternal Judgement. Jesus might say. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works? Matthew 7:21-22 Quoting from the Bible itself , which has been the major tool for some communities to DIVIDE AND RULE Salvation thru Faith is a grace of GOD , but is it Faith , the only instrument to have salvation . hmmmm than there should be only one commandment in the Bible. LOVE THE LORD GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART , MIND AND SOUL . But Jesus has given a second commandment also LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOUR ALSO AS U LOVE YOUR SELF. It seems the second commandment is not applicable for some communities. The question is The devil also believes and has faith in Jesus that thru his sacrifice on the cross , Jesus has redeemed the world , so is devil granted a place in heaven. The answer is noooo..The devil inspite of having faith in Jesus cannot do GOOD WORKS which is essential for our salvation and that is the second commandment of Jesus. Faith and Good works are neccessary for our salvation. We live in a modern world and man is filled with constant ideasbut we still live on traditions. It is traditions that we come across historical truths..the passover festivals were held both in the old testament and new testament. The successions of the apostles were needed to build the church, had the succession not needed ,than Mathias would not have been succeeded in Judas place . Let us come togather to reunite the body of Jesus with a common doctrine, with a common worship and be humble in our behaviour for not everyone is called to interpret his own beliefs but rather share the same belief which is universal.
The time has come that we shud pray for the lost sheeps in the world who have gone away from us ,bcos it is only the holy spirit to convince these sheeps to come into truth and not humans to convince them. As Jesus said If they dont listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if one rises from the dead. Lk 16:19-31 . Reply
Tereese March 23, 2011 at 5:28 pm God Bless you Viator What a great witness for the Catholic Faith. And for what its worth you cant argue with those who dont want to see or hear no one wants to be wrong. The only concern should be What is Gods will? and the two commandments Jesus left us with. Catholics dont really need to argue with Protestants but they do need to pray and suffer, love and die for them offering it all up to Jesus on the cross. There is one comment you said about Protestants being wealthier than Catholics and I find that is the case with most Protestants. They believe the way the Jews of old did if you are wealthy and healthy God has blessed you and if not you are cursed. In fact, I would go so far as to say our Protestant brothers and sisters are very much Old Testament Jewish in their beliefs. Now before you jump on me for anti Jewish remarks understand that I know Jews are our big brothers and they were the foundation for Christianity but understand these foundational Jews believed in Jesus and they are the ones that established the ritual worship based on their traditions that are still in place in the Catholic Church today Jesus as a Jew would be very much at home in the Catholic Church WHY??? Because we still worship in many of the ways the Jews used to worship and also and mostly because of the CROSS! A stumbling block for our Protestant Brothers and Sisters as well as our Jewish brothers and sisters. Like I said, Catholics need to pray, suffer, love and die for them and we will all be happy together in heaven. Love to you all Reply
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