The Ladder Theorists Handbook

The Ladder Theorists Handbook For a while now Ive been collecting and organizing good posts from
the ladder theory forums, and any other good information related to how relationships work. Now that the ladder theory forums database got wiped [or setback to December 2005] I thought I would compile a pdf file of everything I had so at least it wasnt a total loss. This was the first pdf file that I ever made, it consisted of me converting all the .txt files I wanted to include into .doc and then converting those to .pdf, importing them into adobe acrobat and lastly adding a bookmark for every segment. Ive been wanting to do this for a while, but now that the forums officially died I got motivated and did it all in around 4 hours. I hope whoever reads this makes the best out of it, who knows maybe Ill decide to update it every couple of months incase the forums go down again or just to have a nice compilation of things. Ill see how the others react to this and maybe we could vote on what parts should be on it, well see what happens, enjoy. _________________ Answering the questions nobody asked -D.lu Dlusion Chingon Joined: 01 Oct 2003 Posts: 170 Location: Guadalajara, Mexico
http://intellectualwhores.com/ladderintro.html
Introduction to the Ladder

The ladder theory is a theory of adult male/female interaction. It has its basis in many years of sociological field testing. it was first conceptualized in 1994 in Exeter, CA. My acknowledgements to Jared Whitson for his role in formalizing the theory.
photograph courtesy of Philip Greenspun NOTE: Please do NOT contact Philip Greenspun regarding this site. He took this photo, and I found it and used it. He is not associated with this site. If you have questions or comments on ladder theory see my contact info or you can use the webmail form provided: here
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Foundations of the Ladder Theory
Foundations of Ladder Theory

Sally: We are just going to be friends, OK? Harry: Great, friends. It's the best thing...You realize, of course, that we can never be friends. Sally: Why not? Harry: What I'm saying is - and this is not a come-on in any way, shape, or form - is that men and women can't be friends, because the sex part always gets in the way. Sally: That's not true. I have a number of men friends and there is no sex involved. Harry: No, you don't. Sally: Yes, I do. Harry: No, you don't. Sally: Yes, I do. Harry: You only think you do. Sally: You're saying I'm having sex with these men without my knowledge? Harry: No, what I'm saying is they all want to have sex with you. Sally: They do not. Harry: Do too. Sally: They do not. Harry: Do too. Sally: How do you know? Harry: Because no man can be friends with a woman that he finds attractive. He always wants to have sex with her. Sally: So you're saying that a man can be friends with a woman he finds unattractive. Harry: No, you pretty much want to nail them, too. Sally: What if they don't want to have sex with you? Harry: Doesn't matter, because the sex thing is already out there, so the friendship is ultimately doomed, and that is the end of the story. Before we get to the core of the ladder theory let's introduce a few lemmas. Lemma 1:Every time you meet someone you give them a quick mental rating. Just how this is done is based on your sex, like so:
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It should be noted that this is not an entirely conscious process. To make it clear here's an illustrative example of what really happens:
q q
Bob Meets Jane Then Bob Meets Connie
Now the ladder theory description goes like this: 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. Bob Meets Jane Bob sizes her up based on the above criterion Bob puts her on the ladder Bob meets Connie Bob sizes her up based on the above criterion Bob puts her on the ladder above Jane
You can recognize this has gone on because Bob says " I'd like to fuck Jane, but not as much as I want to fuck Connie" I think that everyone has heard this or something like it enough times for us to accept it as axiomatic and move on. You might be thinking, " Well what about Jane and Connie?" We'll get to them next.
The Rating System: A Short Aside

The graphs on the previous page were not thrown together arbitrarily--they represent years of field testing. I say this because this is invariably the section I take the most flak for. Although almost all guys who have not had the manhood stripped out of them know this intuitively. As far as intellectual whores can determine, the average female bitch has a rating system that works like this:
So the breakdown looks like: Money and Power: 50% Attraction: 40% Things Women Say They Care About But Do Not: 10% (this includes intelligence, sense of humor, honesty, sensitivity etc. )
As to the first point, that of money. Well most guys know that women dig guys with money. Would Donald Trump be fucking models if he wasn't rich? That question is rhetorical. Now I don't even believe this is wrong, I think it is just nature. But I also think women who are this way (and it is almost all of you) should be honest and admit that they are basically whores, and stop saying bad things about the socalled "actual whores" who are just trying to earn an honest living. Most women read this and say something like, "Well I'm not the average woman because..blah...blah... not true...blah blah...my boyfriend/lover/husband/masseuse was poor...blah...blah." If you thought something like this you are very likely the average woman. If you read it and went "Hmmm..." and then you went back to doing physics, then you have a case.
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Looks are not to be discounted. I see many girls revert to about a seventh grade emotional level when they see some guy at the club, or some guy from a crappy movie. I think everyone has seen this phenomena, and it seems to have become an alarming trend in women of increasing age. The attraction category is broken down further in the next section. This is a change from previous versions of the ladder theory that included looks here instead of attraction. I feel this is a more accurate depiction, as evidenced by experiment and peer review. The last 10% was my effort to give women the benefit of the doubt. A common question men ask of women is "Tell me what you want in a man?", which is like asking how many guys she's slept with, an invitation to be lied to. Because she'll almost invariably answer with some combination of
q q q q
sense of humor intelligence sensitivity emotional stability
As far as I can tell this is mostly rubbish. But in an effort to be fair I have included this, since there seem to be a few rare cases of this. Just none that I have ever seen. Another thing to watch out for is the code words women use. Here is a translation guide for dealing with women. Says: I want a man who is motivated and has goals. Means: I want a rich man Says: I want a man who knows how to treat a woman. Means: I want a rich man Says: He's from a really good family. Means: He's from a really rich family. I'm sure you get the point. Let's move on.
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The Inner Structure of the Pie Chart
Deconstructing the Woman's Pie Chart

It was previously thought that the pie chart was fundamental. New advances in Ladder Theory have brought us to a more complete understanding. We have made new advances in the inner structure of the woman's rating system and now present it here. First let's look at the rating system in Classical Ladder Theory
Now this is a fairly accurate description, and is essentially accurate. It misses a number of fine points. By defining the 40% block as "looks" the theory had originally assumed that looks were influenced by factor's other than just phyical attraction. For example, a guy who is a complete asshole to a woman seems to somehow look better to them. It soon became apparent from peer review that the term looks was inappropriate and has been replaced by the more accurate "attraction". The new chart then looks like this.
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Previously it had been assumed that looks was fundamental. That is, that it could not be broken down any further, and that a score was assigned based on whatever biological principles made women attracted to men. Through extensive research we have been able to discern the inner structure of attraction. A chart will illustrate a very close approximation of the inner structure of attraction for the female. Commentary to follow.
Physical Attraction/Looks - This is still a big factor in attraction. This is self-explanatory. Competition - I almost titled this section disinterest. The two are closely related. We can only pursue what runs away from us. A man who is devoted to something else besides the woman is autmatically more attractive. Any intellectual whore who has ever listened to a girl complain about how her boyfriend-ran-off-with-a-slut or how her boyfriend-is-really-not-dumb-he's-just-streetsmart-and-he- hasto-sell-weed-to-support-his-baby's-mama or he's-really-nice-even-though-he-ignores-me-and-hits-mesometimes-but-you-don't- know-what-he's-like-when-we're-alone or he's-not-emotionally-availablethat's-why-I-like-talk-to-you-until-it's-time-to-go-fuck-him while he himself is sitting right there and would like nothing better than to be with her but of course is sitting solidly on the friends ladder knows this intuitively. Ultimately, almost all guys learn this truth for themselves: The best way to never score with a woman is to show too much interest in her. Women seem to especially like it if you are more devoted to your bad music, biker gang, forearm tattoo or marijuana. These all seem to work wonders. There are some interests you can show in a woman that will help you to fuck her: a healthy interest in destroying her self-esteem and in fucking her friends more than her seem to work wonders. Note that the following topics of disinterest have been field tested and shown conclusively not to work: Unix, literature, poetry, international politics, and sodomy. Novelty - Let's face it, if you're like every other guy who works a normal job and tries to live a good life, you're probably like just about every other guy. Chicks don't dig this, and why would they? Who wants someone who is just like everyone else? Something different is more attractive. Like someone who does not have to work during the day like most people because they have lots of money from business or
selling drugs. Or like someone who has stabbed a man and went to prison for it. Different and a veritable ticket to getting laid.
Deconstructing money/power
"Power is a great aphrodesiac" - Notorious Asshole and War Criminal Henry Kissinger "A woman's test is material. A man's test is a woman...if a man could fuck in a cardboard box, he wouldn't buy a house." - Rabbi Dave Chappelle It was previously assumed that money was a fundamental unit of attraction to a woman. Further investigation has revealed a better understanding of this very important piece of the woman's rating system. The piece which was formerly labelled money has been replaced by a money/power paradigm. The two are almost always intertwined in a way that makes them hard to distinguish, so I don't think it productive to make a chart of how they breakdown exactly. One almost always follows the other in any case. What is important to know about the money/power piece is that previously it was thought of as static. Now we know that the money/power piece of attraction displays time-variance. That is, the amount of money needed to get maximal "points" in the money category varies according to the age of the woman. When a woman is younger her perspective is different as to what makes a lot of money. As she gets older the amount of money neccessary for full points increases. For a girl of 16 full points for money might be obtained by having access to a car and beer money. When she is in her early college years, a nicer car and enough money to join a fraternity is probably sufficient. As she advances into her twenties what we consider to be the normal money chart will begin to manifest itself -- that is, she'll want the richest man she can get. At no point that we can discern does money ever not become a factor. Take any guy. Take a woman that has that guy. In no circumstance that is known would she not rather have a guy just like that, but with more money. Actually, maybe in one circumstance -- when the guy has enough money to buy her basically everything she wants. This is self-evident, I should think.
Dreams of a Final Theory

I think is very very close to a final analysis of how a woman's rating system works. If you are very attractive, rich, and novel and show no interest in her she is almost guaranteed to want to fuck you. Indeed, isn't this the very definition of Alpha Male? In this way we have derived from our theoretical framework an idea that agrees with observation and experiment to many degrees of accuracy. It also provides a frameowrk for the Logic. Strive to be attractive, novel and aloof and you will go far.
Construction of the Ladder

Now for the core of the theory. Since everyone you meet has a rating, it is only natural to stack them up on a ladder. Let's look at the ladder of some example man.
So it should be self-evident, if you are following this at all, that the people you want to have sex with the most will be at the top of the ladder. Descending down to the bottom of the ladder we pass the following people: 1. The people we really want, who may even be out of our league, are on top 2. Then come the people we like 3. Moving further down we pass the people who we would fuck if we were intoxicated and would admit to doing it later. 4. At the bottom are the people we would fuck drunk, and would lie about doing it later. Clinging to the bottom are the girls that are wolf ugly. These are women so ugly you would chew your own arm off to get away rather than fuck them. Usually fake teeth, or the loss of several hundred pounds can move a woman up from wolf ugly.
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Now let's take a look at what the typical woman's ladder looks like:
The first thing to notice here is that a woman has not one ,but two ladders. This is becasue in addition the normal ladder, a woman also has a friends ladder. The friends ladder is where a woman puts guys that she considers "just friends". More to the point where she puts guys who don't get to have sex with her. The problem arises because a woman never lets a guy know which ladder he is on. Obviously there is a huge difference, or gap between these two ladders. It is in this gap that kisses of death are delivered and intellectual whores are made. All a man can do is "go for it" and make a move on a girl; ask her out, try to kiss her, write her a love note or whatever. If he's on the good ladder fine. If he is on the friends ladder this is a case of ladder jumping. The man is trying to jump the gap from the friends ladder to the real ladder. The girl has two choices at this point: she can let him on the ladder and all is well, or, more likely, she can kick him in the head, and off the ladder. If you look you'll see that below the ladder is the Abyss(what was it Nietzsche said about a man being on a rope stretched over an Abyss?....well it's worse than he thought; there is no rope.) So the man falls into the Abyss. The Abyss isn't really as bad as it sounds. Mostly it's a period of self-loathing, embarrassment, and of course utter awkwardness with the girl in question if they are talking at all. To fully illustrate the point I'll now examine some common scenarios and their ladder theory explanations. For purposes of these examples Tom will be our boy and Jane will be out girl. Scenario 1: Tom meets Jane. She's pretty and seems interesting to talk to. Tom and Jane start haging out
and talking more and more. Tom develops an attraction to Jane, and one day tries to kiss her. Jane tell Tom she doesn't think of him that way and she wants to remain friends. The next few weeks contact between the two falls off. Jane starts fucking an outlaw biker. Ladder Theory Explanation: Tom met Jane. Tom was immediately placed on the friends ladder. Tom didn't know this. Tom tried to jump ladders. Jane kicked Tom in the head rather than let him on and sent him hurtling to the Abyss below. The oulaw biker was not on her friends ladder (they never are) but rather on her good ladder.
Scenario 2: Tom meets Jane. She's cute and seems smart. After an appropriate amount of time he asks her out on a date. She acccepts and they have what seems to be a perfectly nice date. Tom thinks he has a chance with Jane. He asks her out again. She says no, either explicitly or by never returning his phone call. Tom has no idea what the Hell just happened. Jane starts fucking an unemployed alcoholic. Ladder Theory Explanation: Jane misrepresented which ladder Tom was on. He thought he was on the good ladder because of her acceptance of the date. Mistake. This led to an unintentional ladder jump. He was kicked into the Abyss. In this situation, Jane often wants to stay friends becasue you are so interesting and funny or some shit like that. If this happens you are most likely an Intellectual Whore. I'm sorry. This is most likely to be a ninja-bitch.
Scenario 3: A girl says any of the following to you:

q q q q q
"You're like a brother to me" "You're like a big teddy bear" "I feel like I can talk to you about anything" "You're so nice" "Can you help me with my homework"
Ladder Theory Explanation: You are on the friends ladder. So Sorry. You can see that a lot of problems can be avoided(though sadly not problem two) by declaring as soon as possible to a girl that you will not be friends under any circumstances. You can explain that she is too attractive or you can be blunt and say you don't want to bend your "friends" over a table and fuck them, but would rather play poker and go to the races with them, thus disqualifying her from friendship. As long as you are clear. This may scare a girl away. But if it does what would you want with such a skittish little twit anyway? Next we'll explore some of the consequences of the ladder and applications in every day life.
Hidden Variables
Hidden Variables in the Ladder

The Ladder Theory is assumed to be correct for all classical phenomena. There do seem to be some "hidden" variables that modify the Ladder to some extent. These variables do not affect the rating system, nor do they affect the fundamental theorems of the Ladder. They do, however, modify how we act with regard to the Ladder. These are the hidden variables that have been identified. Religiosity: While most people, even people who believe in God, will have sex before they are married and thus fall under the rules of the ladder, some people are so religious they will not have sex until they are married. This is of course a silly and anachronistic practice, but it does occur. In this case, the Ladder should me modified as follows: change instances of 'would have sex with' to be 'would like to have sex with.' This works because while religious people have the same impulses, they choose to deny them as opposed to embracing them. Drunkenness: Of course when drunk we do things we wouldn't do otherwise. Usually when sobriety sets in, there is a return to the tenets of the ladder theory. In most cases, it should be noted, repressed Americans use being drunk as an excuse to do what they wanted to do anyway, so one should be very careful in applying this variable. For example, I'm drunk as I type this, but I would have typed it anyway, even though I might fall back on that excuse if there are a lot of typos in there or it doens't stand up to peer review. Do not let me get away with this. Loyalty: A lot of people have asked about the significant others of friends and if they are special cases of the Ladder. They are not. These are not your friends. These are virtual friends. For example, a friend of mine is fucking a girl. I like her, she's great, we get along, etc... But when they break up she is dead to me. Or if the friend leaves the picture the normal rules of the Ladder apply. So are we really friends? Of course not. We are conditional friends. This does not affect where she goes on the Ladder. Think of it like this: the Ladder is a rating system, and I'll rate her along with everyone else based on how much I would like to fuck them. A note for guys: if your friends girl offers you a piece you should hit that shit, because he shouldn't be laying up with no ho. Ideally you should tape it also, because most guys will believe the person they're fucking. Desperation:
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Hidden Variables
What desperation does is shift downward the line of quality that one would consider for fucking. There is a line on the ladder that is the quality of the last person you were fucking. Since one of the purposes of life, if not the purpose, is to move up the ladder, you want someone above this line. Sometimes you can't find someone above this line. This leads to a virtual shift in the line downward as one gets more and more in need of a fuck. But in terms of what a person wants, nothing changes -- you'd leave your desperation fuck for someone else with the requisite ladder attributes.
Hidden Variables and Sanity

Note that all known hidden variables are indicative of an altered consciousness of some kind. At the 'limit of sanity' the Classical ladder's rating system still applies. So I don't feel that these change the core theory, but explain times when the theory is not able to be applied because your perception is wrong.
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Yes Virginia, They All Want to Nail You
Back to the Beginning: Yes Virginia, They All Want to Bang You.
You'll note that a man has one ladder while a female has two. The man is lacking a "friends ladder." The man's ladder reflects the conventional wisdom that a man generally only wants one thing. That's because the conventional wisdom is correct. This leads us back to the conclusion that many women I have explained this to find so distasteful:
IF A MAN FINDS YOU ATTRACTIVE YOU CANNOT BE FRIENDS

Many women want to argue this point and say things like " I have lots of guy friends." Maybe. There are exactly 3 cases Intellectual Whores has identified whereby a guy and a girl can be friends: 1. The guy is gay 2. The guy does not find you attractive. 3. The guy already has a woman much higher than you on the ladder Even Nietzsche knew this. Most guys know this intuitively. Most girls doubt. I have a challenge for all of you girls who still doubt. Pick a guy who does not meet any of the criterion on the above list that you think is your friend. Then ask yourself this question: If you were both alone at his place one night, and you excused yourself to the bathroom and came out naked and asked him to have sex with you would he: 1. Tell you he doesn't want to risk the beautiful friendship you have created with messy physical entanglements. 2. Comply Remember this only works if you are honest with yourself. Number one is of course something that guys hear all the time. Intellectual Whores refers to it as the Kiss of Death. It is more likely that he will jump you eagerly.
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Consequences of the Ladder

Toward a Meaning of Life
Convieniently, the ladder theory answers the oft asked question, "What is the purpose of life?" The purpose of life is to move up the ladder. The person you are with now should be better (higher on your ladder) than the person you were last with. Okay it's not perfect but if you have no direction in life, trying to fuck hotter and hotter chicks or richer and richer guys is as good a place as any to start. In addition to giving a good base toward a meaning of life there are a few other things that ladder theory explains.
Topping out the Ladder:

Have you ever seen a guy that was not particularly attractive, rich or muscled yet was with a lovely woman? For most guys the most common reaction is envy, something like "Hey I'm not all that muscled, attractive or rich either. Why can't I be fucking a girl like that?" We at intellectual whores used to feel this way about "stump factor" as well. But then ladder theory was discovered and we realized that it was more rational to pity this man. Ladder theory tells us that the purpose of life is to move up the ladder. When their relationship ends, he will probably never be able to get another woman as good as the one he is with right now -- the rest of his life he'll likely be striving in vain. In effect, he's doomed the whole rest of his life to meaninglessness unless he marries this girl. This of course is just trading one type of doom for another.
Ladder Disparity
The ladder is obviously a two-way process. When Bob meets Jane he puts her on his ladder and she puts him on her ladder. It often happens that one person is a lot higher on your ladder than you are on theirs, or vice versa. The leads to a situation that looks like this:
Notice that Bob has Jane very low while Bob is very high on Jane's ladder. He is most likely rich and she is most likely ugly. Anyhow this is a classic case of disparity. If we connect the two points we can make a right triangle. The resulting hypotenuse "c" is the magnitude of the disparity.
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Common shorthand among ladder thoerists is "Well, she caught him fucking a stewardess and didn't leave him but what do you expect for a level 5 disparity." The position of being high on someone else's ladder while having them low on yours is referred to as being in the "upper" or "power" position. This is good and leads to different things depending on who is in the power position. If the man is in the upper position the disparity is a measure of how long the woman will put up with him cheating, using her physically without committing, or paying his rent and all his bills. If the woman is in the power position then it is a measure of how much the man will spend money on her, fetch her things at midnight, and listen to stories about other guys she is fucking.
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Manifestations of The Ladder
Manifestations of the Ladder

Classical Ladder Theory admittedly treats relationships as binary, in the sense of sex or not-sex. There are in-between cases, which I feel the Ladder addresses. In this section we will take some common scenarios and see how they are explained within the framework of ladder theory. The first two, cuddle bitches and friends with benefits, were proposed in an email I received so I have dealt with them first.
On Cuddle Bitches
Cuddle Bitches
cuddle bitch(n) - a guy who never gets to sleep with a girl but gets to have intimate moments with her like cuddling, spooning, or otherwise being affectionate. Usually this will occur in private. She probably considers him a really sweet guy, which is the kiss of death. First off, cuddle bitches are bad, bad things to be. Maybe the worst thing to be. I mean, being an Intellectual Whore is bad, but being an Intellectual Whore who has to endure blue-balls is bordering on criminal. As to how it fits into the framework of the ladder. Basically this is just a guy who has a very high position on the friends ladder. So far up the friends ladder that he gets the dubious honor of getting to provide all the intimacy that a girl is missing when she's off fucking guys who basically don't care about her like outlaw bikers and band members. So he gets to be the proxy father/confessor/friend/teddy bear for her, depending on what she is missing at the time. Perhaps the only consolation of this is a ladder jump to the real ladder seems statistically a little more likely to succeed. Of course, when one is that high up the fall is dreadful indeed.... How do we know this? Well, if a woman had a nice loving boyfriend then he would be doing all the cuddling and whatnot and likely wouldn't stand for a woman maintaining a stable of cuddle bitches. Unless he's completelty pussified, in which case she's likely fucking some other people anyway. For guys unacquainted with Ladder Theory, it is even worse. The cuddle bitch often thinks he is on the good ladder as opposed to the real ladder. So he gets all excited about his position instead of realizing he is being completely used. So this poor tool is really setting himself up for a fall at that point. Note: This does not apply if cuddling under the influence of mushrooms, for the express purposes of avoiding hypothermia, or if the woman is a whore that you've recently paid for sex. Cuddling is perfectly acceptable and probably non-sexual in these circumstances.
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Friends With Benefits:

This is the case where you get to sleep with a woman or have some sort of intimate physical relations without any sort of committment. All we can say to this situation is: bravo! This is the optimal condition to be in--with as many women as possible. A lot of people try to use this condition as a criticism of ladder theory, so I'll state again here that this fits perfectly in the framework of ladder theory. A woman has two ladders, but the second one is the 'guys I would have sex with' ladder, NOT the 'relationship ladder.' So 'friends with benefits' is a complete fucking misnomer, since you are not actually 'friends', you are quite more than that. The Ladder Theory only states what makes a woman want to have sex with a man, it does not take the puerile view that women don't want to have sex, or that they have to be somehow tricked into it. If you are a 'friend with benefits', then you are on the Real Ladder. Congratulations. If you get replaced, you haven't been demoted ladders, you have merely been replaced by someone higher than you on the Real Ladder. That being said, usually women are more interested in long-term relationships than men, and consent to this form of relationship because there is ladder disparity in favor of the male. A lot of women say that they are just having sex, they like it as much as men etc... While the second statement is undoubtedly exaggerated, there is no reason to think that women don't want to have sex just as much as men. Which if course only makes it worse if a woman doesn't want to have sex with you.
Of Female Footstools
Judging by the amount of mail I have gotten about it, a LOT of guys are using the tactic of making friends with the less-than-attractive friend of a girl they want to fuck in order to score points with the girl higher up the ladder. I have never found this to work very well for me personally, but it does not require an addendum to the Theory, and can be explained within the framework of Classical Ladder Theory. Let us call the woman you are using to score points with the woman you want to fuck the 'footstool.' The woman you are trying to fuck we will call the 'target.' There are two basic situations here. One is that you would fuck the footstool. This is the easiest one. If you would fuck them then you're not really friends. The other is that you wouldn't fuck the footstool. If we look at the ways that men can have female friends we find if you wouldn't fuck them or if you are fucking someone better. In this case the target is by definition better, or else the target would be the footstool. So the whole thing is explained by the Ladder Theory already. Of course the very idea of calling someone you are merely using to fuck someone else a 'friend' is a little ridiculous also.
One interesting thing about footstools is it is about as close as a woman can usually get to knowing what it is like to be an intellectual whore.
Exes
Exes are not a special case in the ladder. Usually when someone gets broken up with it's because the other person thinks they can do better on the Ladder. Or already has. If you didn't think you could do better why would you leave the one you were with? The usual pattern for exes is to try to be friends, realize it's not going to really work, and then become more and more distant toward each other over time. In any case, if you continue to fuck for a while, then you continue to fuck. You wouldn't have had a relationship with them if they were not on the real ladder, so if it's convienient there's really no reason not to. If you are friends, then the normal rules of how men and women can be friends applies. But it should be said, that many exes try to be friends because it seems like some shit they should do, when in reality one of them is hoping they will get back together or at least continue to fuck.
Answers to Common Criticisms

Criticism:You're just bitter. Answer:Maybe I am. But ladder theory made me that way, my bitterness did not make ladder theory. Attack the theory, not the person behind it. And why does everyone always say I'm bitter just because 99.999% of chicks are bitches? Criticism:I have lots of male friends who would never think of me that way blah blah blah. Answer:Your friend doesn't find you attractive, or he's currently doing better, or he's gay or you're wrong. Criticism:That's not true Answer:Yes it is. Criticism:So a woman is a bad person just because she won't sleep with you? Don't you hang out with people you don't want to sleep with? Are women supposed to just fuck every guy who wants to fuck them so they won't be bitches? Answer:Yes, I hang out with people I don't want to sleep with, but they're all people who don't want to sleep with me either. So there's equity. It's not that I think women are bad people for not wanting to sleep with me. It's moreso that: 1. I have plenty of friends already 2. I will never be able to truly be friends with them because my perspective will be colored by my desire to sleep with them 3. If they are not cool then they are probably just attractive and why would i want to hang out with them if they won't sleep with me? If they are cool then the desire to sleep with them will only intensify the more I hang out with them so I am really only torturing myself emotionally to hang out with them and pretend that that is all I want. Why would I or any guy want to put himself through that?
Criticism:Do you expect to get laid when you have this whole site devoted to how much you hate women? Answer:First off, this is a forum for my narcissism. As to hatred of women -- if that's what you think then you are clearly projecting your guilt about being a bitch onto me. Not a single woman who wasn't a bitch has ever complained about misogyny at this site. I can prove this on an abacus. Criticism:In the section on ladder disparity you make reference to the 'hypotenuse.' The ladders however, are metaphorical constructs, and are not a defined distance apart from each other so this term is misleading.
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Answer:It seems that way at first, but that's because you have failed to understand the topology of Ladder Space, which should of course should be so obvious that a formal proof is not required. Idiot. Criticism:You must have been terribly hurt, or had a terrible relationship with your mom or [insert pseudo-Freudian amateur psycho-babble analysis here] Answer:See my answer to the first criticism. Also, why doesn't anyone ever assume that my mother was so great that I have never yet found a woman to live up to her standard and thus became bitter? Criticism:You must have too much time on your hands, and you must not be getting laid, to write all this stuff. Lighten up, and [insert one of: grow up, get laid, or get a life.] Answer:Depends on my mood. For a good mood: Who says I don't get laid? For all you know I've only had 4 rejections in 25 years. Not bad on the whole. Also, I'm just presenting the world as I see it. I never said I was angry that women all want rich guys. Indeed, it gives me an incentive to save money. To the contrary I don't have enough time. Like Keats, I am afraid my pen, or keyboard as the case may be, will not have time to glean my teeming brain before I shuffle off this mortal coil. Assuming you are correct, though, how would that change the ladder theory? For a bad mood: Right, some kind of life it must be if you're spending time writing missives about the virtues of women friends to guys who have websites. You obviously got married too soon or are a pussy whipped little bitch who knows he can't pull off what women really want so you spin these little defensive theories about how you should be nice and sweet and kind, and I'm sure it occasionally gets you some very boring women. As for me, I'll be partying with a couple of hookers who are VERY honest about what they want and suck a good dick. Just please raise your mewling little brats not to talk in movie theatres, and not to bother people trying to do something creative with their snivelling.
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A Common Ladder Misonception
Appendix A: Removing a Little Cognitive Dissonance

Common Misconceptions And Frequently Asked Questions About the Ladder Theory How can a woman want rich guys and outlaw bikers? Isn't this a contradiction? The Rich Man/Biker 'Paradox'.
One problem often brought to my attention as a 'contradiction' in Ladder Theory is that it postulates that women want rich men as well as Outlaw Bikers, who are generally the opposite of rich men in every way. This leads to insightful analysis like 'well, how can they want both? your theory sucks.' I can see how one could come to this conclusion since I state that women want rich men and Outlaw Bikers, but Outlaw Bikers are typically are not rich, barring drug dealing activity. The best place to start is to reformulate the question in another form. Given the high percentage of female attraction attributed to money/power, why isn't every woman fucking a wealthy man? When we state the question in this way the answer becomes clear: scarcity. To belabor the point, if all men were equally wealthy or powerful then there would be no distinction between them, and this variable would be eliminated from the Ladder. Since rich men are scarce, they are more in demand. Since they are high up on a lot of women's ladders, they are able to have women that are high up their own ladders. Despite the common misconception that males are out to fuck anything that moves(although they might be out to fuck anything really HOT that moves), they have a Ladder and a ranking system of their own. A lot of people make the mistake of assuming that men never exercise judgment regarding whom they fuck. If that was the case, it would be like a game of tag -- whatever women gets there first and promises to lick his balls wins. Not the case. What many people forget about the Ladder is that men have Ladders and ranking also. A woman can't have any man she wants. Sometimes a man doesn't want a woman because he's had much better, or he just doesn't find her attractive. If we put the following question to a female honestly, the answer will be yes almost all of the time: "I like that person now, but would I prefer that they were as they are plus more attractive or more wealthy?" Well why wouldn't you want someone just as they were but with a little more money or a little better looks? There is one instance, that is when gaining those things would put them high enough on the ladders of others that you could no longer compete. We know that if someone improves themselves drastically they will move on to better people unless they feel a very acute sense of loyalty. All women want a hot, rich man. That is not possible for all women. There are a shortage of rich men,
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A Common Ladder Misonception
and a definite shortage of hot rich men, since if a man is rich he doesn't have to bother to look good. So if most of the men in a woman's life are of basically average looks and similar income, what is going to win out? Novelty, and power, which many outlaw bikers possess. By the description of attraction in the Ladder Theory it only goes to follow that if a woman can't have a rich man, that she'll gravitate toward an Outlaw Biker. Note also that the time-relative nature of the money variable predicts that a woman will be more likely to want an Outlaw Biker when she is younger, since the Outlaw Biker is usually lacking in money. This appears to be consistent with observation.
Can't the two ladders be represented as just one big ladder for women?
A lot of people have suggested that women really only have one ladder, or men really have two, and both are completely missing the point of the 1-2 ladder scheme. Yes you COULD say that guys who women won't fuck are way down on their only ladder and you COULD say that guys have a separate ladder for women they wouldn't fuck. The point of saying women have two ladders and men have 1 ladder is to illustrate the fundamental difference in outlook between men and women. The point is that for men, there is a ranking that takes place based on the pie charts and women get put on the ladder and that's it. How much do I want to fuck her is the fundamental unit of a man's thought. A woman on the other hand, seems able to recognize atrributes in a man that would make her want to fuck him and yet still not fuck him, either because he is too good a friend, or because she just 'doesn't see him that way' or by some strange mystery of human chemistry. So the metaphorof the two ladders is to illustrate this fundamental difference in thought.
Are you serious or is the site just satire?

Nothing is just satire.
What about homosexual/bi-sexual/trangendered/spongecake fetishists?

I pretty much reject those labels. I think it's more of a spectrum with 1 being something like perfectly straight, and 10 being perfectly gay. I am about a 2.5. Therefore I don't feel qualified to write about h/b/t/ s relationships. If someone who is more gay than I wants to, I'll be glad to post it if it isn't a total piece of shit.
I don't understand how my situation -- [ insert situation XX ] -- fits in with the ladder theory.
Try harder. Ask your friends. Ask in theIW Forums. Ask your friends again. Then email me. And don't expect a response.
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Appendix B: Some Songs That Reflect Ladder Theory
Musical Intonations of Ladder Theory

These are some songs that seem to represent Ladder Theory well. intellectualwhores.com takes no responsibility for the quality of these songs. Some of them pretty much suck. But they illustrate the theme. All of these songs are available for download at the intellectualwhores ftp site(ssssshhhhhh....don't tell the RIAA). Instructions can be found here Cake - "Italian Leather Sofa" Sam Kinison - "The Bitch Song" Just listen to it. It's fucking funny. Cake - "Friend is a 4 Letter Word" To me, coming from you, Friend is a four letter word End is the only part of the word That I heard Call me morbid, or absurd But to me, coming from you, Friend is a four letter word To me, coming from you, Friend is a four letter word End is the only part of the word That I heard Call me morbid, or absurd, But to me, coming from you, Friend is a four letter word When I go fishing for the words I am wishing you would say to me I'm really only praying that The words you'll soon be saying Might betray, the way you feel about me But to me, coming from you, Friend is a four letter word She doesn't care Whether or not he's an island. She doesn't care, Just as long as his ship's coming in. She doesn't care Whether or not he's an island. They laugh, they make money. He's got a gold watch. She's got a silk dress And healthy breasts That bounce on his Italian leather sofa. She doesn't care Whether or not he's a good man. She doesn't care, Just as long as she still has her friends. She doesn't care Whether or not he's an island. They laugh, they make money. He's got a gold watch. She's got a silk dress And healthy breasts That bounce on his Italian leather sofa. She's got a serrated edge That she moves back and forth. It's such a simple machine. She doesn't have to use force. When she gets what she wants She puts the rest on a tray
Jets To Brazil - "Starry Configurations"

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In a zip-loc bag. starry configurations am just a receiver divine recombinations am just a recordist She's got a serrated edge receptionist - unhappy medium That she moves back and forth. receptionist - unhappy medium It's such a simple machine. excellent accommodations am just a bellboy She doesn't have to use force. beautiful surroundings am just some gravel When she get what she wants or peat moss, what have you She puts the rest on a tray or peat moss, what have you now? In a zip-loc bag in the freezer. why must you treat me like you do? She doesn't care don't you know it's all for you Whether or not he's an island. dear infatuation, you do not see me She doesn't care, die here beside you in see-through obscurity Just as long as his ship's coming in. governess, fancy less, we'll sound the alarm She doesn't care and drum up some simpleton for you Whether or not he's an island. to eat these apples from your eyes They laugh, they make money. emptiness fills room He's got a gold watch. your love's bud goes full bloom She's got a silk dress you don't love me And healthy breasts aren't thinking of me That bounce on his Italian leather sofa. why am I waiting for you to see I'm alive storybook ending am just a ledger hardly worth a mention or the paper Ben Folds Five - "Song For the Dumped" it's written on and cried upon and kissed once by wax So you wanted to take a break? but still you treat me like you do Slow it down some, and have some space? with everything I've done for you Well fuck you too! striking like a bird of prey along your notepad now Give me my money back, give me my money the only year that turns your way back, you bitch. my dear diary: it's just you and me tonight I want my money back. you don't love me You fucking whore! [*and don't forget] aren't thinking of me Wish I hadn't bought you dinner, right before you you don't love me dumped me on your front porch. aren't thinking of me tonight Give me my money back, give me my money why am I waiting for you to see I'm alive? back, you bitch. I want my money back. You fucking whore! [*and don't forget] Declan MacManus (Elvis Costello) performed by And don't forget to give me back my black T-Shirt. Paul McCartney So you wanted to take a break? - "The Lovers That Never Were" Slow it down some, and have some space? [**Well fuck you too!] I Have Always Needed Somebody Girl, Give me my money back, But I Close The Doors To Keep Out The World. Give me my money back, give me my money But For You, I Would Be Here All Alone,
Locked In A Photograph. All Of The Clocks Have Run Down. Lover Beware. We'll Be The Lovers That Never Were. I Hang Patiently On Every Word You Send. Will We Ever Be Much More Than Just Friends? As For You, You Sit There Playing This Game, You Keep Me Waiting When All Of The Clocks Have Run Down, All Over The World. We'll Be The Lovers That Never Were. For As Long As The Sun Shines In Somebody's Eyes , I Believe In You Baby, So Don't Tell Me Lies. For As Long As The Trees Throw Down Blossoms And Leaves, I Know There Will Be A Parade Of Unpainted Dreams. And I Know Dear, How Much It's Going To Hurt If You Still Refuse To Get Your Hands Dirty. So You, You Must Tell Me Something,...I Love You, Say Goodbye Or Anything. All Of The Clocks Have Run Down. Time's At An End. If We Can't Be Lovers We'll Never Be Friends. For As Long As The Sun Shines In Somebody's Eyes, I Believe In You Baby, So Don't Tell Me Lies. For As Long As The Trees Throw Down Blossoms And Leaves, I Know There Will Be A Parade Of Unpainted Dreams. A Perfect Circle - "3 Libras" threw you the obvious and you flew with it on your back, a name in your recollection, thrown down among a million same.
back, you bitch. I want my money back. I want my money back. I want my money back. I want my black T-Shirt. I want my black T-Shirt. The Descendents - "I'm The One" i'm the one i've been here for you all along i'm the one who's shoulder you've been cryin on nice guys finish last no one knows as good as me we're just good friends and you come to me for sympathy you tell me that i'm not your type still you call me late at night everytime he picks a fight after all he's said and all he's done i'm the one i've been here for you all along i'm the one who's shoulder you've been cryin on he's a total dick that's the truth and you know i'm right from everything you say theres no way he'll ever do you right you love a man who treats you wrong you think you'll change him but you're wrong he'll use you he'll say so long after all he's said and all he's done i'm the one i've been here for you all along i'm the one who's shoulder you've been cryin on i'm the one who wants you more than anything you don't feel the same way
difficult not to feel a little bit disappointed and passed over when i've looked right through to see you naked and oblivious and you don't see me.but i threw you the obvious just to see if there's more behind the eyes of a fallen angel, the eyes of a tragedy. here i am expecting just a little bit too much from the wounded. but i see through it all and see you. so i threw you the obvious to see what occurs behind the eyes of a fallen angel, eyes of a tragedy. oh well. apparently nothing. you don't see me. you don't see me at all. DMX - "What These Bitches Want" Aiyyo, I think about when a nigga didn't have (YEAH) and a nigga told a joke, and the bitches didn't laugh See now I do the math, I see if you got this and this and this to some cats, that nigga's the shit (aight?) And that's all they fuckin with, but see these bitches don't know If these bitches ain't for real, these bitches don't go Knock on door, no show, I'm sleep tryin to creep wit yo' best friend, put it in, dig deep Frank Sinatra (Russ Columbo) - "Just Friends" Just friends Just friends Lovers no more Just friends But not like before
you made it clear to me but i'll stand my ground and maybe you'll hear what i've been sayin after all i've said and all i've done i'm the one i've been here for you all along i'm the one who's shoulder you've been cryin on i'm the one i've been here for you all along i'm the one who's shoulder you've been cryin on i'm the one Good Charlotte - "Boys and Girls" Educated With money He's well dressed Not funny And not much to say in Most conversations But he'll put the bill in Most situations Cause he pays for everything Girls don't like boys, girls like cars and money Boys will laugh at girls when they're not funny Paper Or plastic Don't matter She'll have it Vacations And shopping sprees These are a few Of her favorite things She'll get what she wants If she's willing to please His type of girl Always comes with a fee Hey, now, there's nothing for free
To think of what we've been And not to kiss again Seems like pretending It isn't the ending Two friends Drifting apart Two friends But one broken heart We loved we laughed we cried Then suddenly love died The story ends And we're Just friends We loved we laughed and we cried Then suddenly love died The story ends And we're Just friends Kool Mo Dee - "They Want Money" I'm drivin' Benz 190 2.5 and you know where to find me Driving down the highway Girlies behind me Jockin' blindly No need to remind me Who I am I know you know me Stop screamin' and yellin' and pointin' I'm low key No I ain't got no time for a picture But slide your number And I'll get wit ya You wanna ride Ya shouldn't of said that You played yourself And I know where your head's at Drive my car don't make me laugh You better settle for an autograph Or a hug and a kiss on the cheek maybe But I ain't trying to make no baby Forget all the silly rumors you heard Here's the deal so spread the word
Girls don't like boys, girls like cars and money Boys will laugh at girls when they're not funny And these girls like these boys like these boys like these girls The girls with the bodies like boys with Ferraris Girls don't like boys, girls like cars and money Let's go! Hey, hey! Girls don't like boys, girls like cars and money Boys will laugh at girls when they're not funny And these girls like these boys like these boys like these girls The girls with the bodies like boys with Ferraris Girls don't like boys, girls like cars and money All of these boys, yeah get all of these girls Losing their souls in a material world All of these boys, yeah get all of these girls Losing their souls in a material world All of these boys, yeah get all of these girls Losing their souls in a material world All of these boys, yeah get all of these girls Losing their souls in a material world Bowling For Soup - "Suckerpunch" Here she comes again with another boyfriend, introduces me and says,this is the sweetest guy I've ever known. Couldn't say a word I never say a word, she wraps her arms around my neck. You are the sweetest guy I've ever known.And I say again this is the last time. There she goes again,she says I'm her best friend. We're better off this way she says. You're still the sweetest guy I've ever known. The smell stays on my shirt I can't say a word and swallow this lump inside my neck. You are the sweetest girl I've ever known. And I say again this is the last time. (chorus)When you left before I didn't care too
much,cause I just wished you'd go away (go away No, yeah) And I see you now and it's just too much. It I ain't got no girlfriend takes my breath away. Just like a sucker punch. No, I ain't buy no car Here she comes again with another boyfriend, No, introduces me and says,this is the sweetest guy I ain't got no babies I've ever known. Couldn't say a word I never say a A lot of ladies word, she wraps her arms around my neck. You Naw, they want money are the sweetest guy I've ever known.And I say And I can see'em a mile away again and I said before and I say once more this is And when they push up the last time. I just smile and say Back up off me (chorus) Smell the coffee You're screamin' and plottin' Just like a suckerpunch (x3) get up get up And I'm killing you softly Watchin' you melt from the second I kiss ya Hear dollar signs in your careless whispers The Offspring - "Self-Esteem" I know the game it's old and lame You're holdin' a flame for my name and my fame I wrote her off for the tenth time today Livin' like Givens schemin' on Tyson And practiced all the things I would say But she got lucky cause he was a nice one But she came over But I ain't nice and I don't play that I lost my nerve If it ain't tax I don't pay that I took her back and made her dessert You think you're in cause you turn me on Now I know I'm being used Here one minute and the next you're gone That's okay cause I've got no self esteem I made rhymes We make plans to go out at night I made cash I wait till 2 then I turn out the light Why get married and you take half All this rejection's got me so low No, If she keeps it up I just might tell her so I ain't got no girlfriend When she's saying that she wants only me No, Then I wonder why she sleeps with my friends I ain't buy no car When she's saying that I'm like a disease No, Then I wonder how much more I can spend I ain't got no babies Well I guess I should stick up for myself A lot of ladies But I really think it's better this way Naw, they want money The more you suffer The police I'm givin' them fits The more it shows you really care Right? A young brother in a Benz legit Now I'll relate this a little bit I don't sell no drugs and take no shh That happens more than I'd like to admit Park my ride and the ladies hit Late at night she knocks on my door So many ladies the cops had a hint Drunk again and looking to score They took me in cause they thought I pimped Now I know I should say no Jetted from the station back in a flash
They had nothing on me but cold cold cash Ladies they all wanna get with The man with the money So they wanna get with The microphone master And ride shotgun So people can see ya And think I got one No sorry nothin's happenin' Moe Dee's single while he's rappin' If girls keep lyin' and crashin' my party Ya'll gonna make me hurt somebody No, I ain't got no girlfriend No, I ain't buy no car No, I ain't got no babies A lot of ladies Naw, they want money
But that's kind of hard when she's ready to go I may be dumb But I'm not a dweeb I'm just a sucker with no self esteem The Ataris - "Your Boyfriend Sucks" You're better off without him, don't call him... He's breaking your heart. He's hanging with your best friend and your waiting there, It's tearing you apart. He lied to you a thousand times, When I was there he kept you waiting. And I'm still here waiting there To catch you if you fall. I don't know why I care so much When I shouldn't care at all. Finally got the nerve to tell you How much you mean to me you said that I was your best friend, A real sweet guy, but that's all I'd ever be.
IW Glossary of Terms
IW Glossary of Terms
Kiss of Death -- A friends speech ending in a hurtling trip to the Abyss. Specifically when a woman tells you something along the lines of "I think of you as a friend." It always results in a rejection of some sort. Bitch -- 99.999% of women. Note for men: I know they are. Note to women: yes, you are in this group. More accurately it is a woman who is not honest about whyshe won't sleep with you. Or sometimes, just a woman who won't sleep with you. And of course women who won't admit the basic truth of Ladder Theory. God -- Something you should profess belief in if you think it will help you bang some bitch. Outlaw Biker -- The prototype of everything women say they don't want but really do. And you will know him by his forearm tattoo, 'street smarts,' weed connection, domestic violence convictions, and the fact that the women you are an intellectual whore to are always complaining about him to you before they go off to fuck him, or leave you in a bar to go home with him. Intellectual Whore -- This is defined here Intellectual Pimp -- The woman that a man is an intellectual whore to. Asshole -- 99.999% of men. Note to women: I know they are. Note to men: I know you aren't really, and that it's just an act to get women. Essentially it is a man who acts like a man. Sesquipedalian -- a really cool word. It means long-winded, polysyllabic, or verbose. See the word describes itself...isn't that neat?
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Are You Too Whorish?
Am I Too Intellectually Whorish? A Quiz.
Check Each one Below That Applies To You, and Find Out if You Are 'Too Whorish' For Your Own Good Quiz brought to you by Quinine, MANipulation, BooRadley, and fuctupshit of the Intellectual Whores Forums 1. 2. 3. 4. I keep making dates with her even though she's stood me up at least once. I've gone out with her on more than one occasion that I considered a date without stating clearly that I had asked her on a date. I've gone on more than 2 dates with her and haven't kissed her yet. I've spent more than $100 on her (gifts, dinner, movies, lending her money for whatever reason, etc) and we haven't had any sort of sexual contact (kissing doesn't count, nor does cuddling). I fantasize about her breaking up with her boyfriend in order to go out with me. I tell myself (and others) that her boyfriend is no good for her and that she deserves someone better. She's been unable to go out with me when I've called to make plans with her, and she hasn't offered an alternate date. I spend a lot of time thinking up extravagant dates to show her how cool, interesting, worthwhile, nice, romantic, or whatever I am. She's reacted coldly to a kiss or other casual physical contact at least once (this includes giving you the cheek when you lean in to kiss her goodnight). She's told you that she's waiting for something particular in order to break up with her current boyfriend but that she won't cheat on him before then. You've been certain that something you've planned for her (a date, a gift, a really off-the-wall surprise, etc) is going to win her over. She blew up at me and I convinced myself she just "needed some space." She has been rude or disrespectful to me in some way and I haven't called her on it because I understand that she is a free spirit. I have been playing email/telephone tag with her. I know she has a busy schedule. I have written a lengthy email to her to show how much I value her personality. She consistently interrupts me or ignores me in favor of her friends, but I understand: her friends are important to her too. I have done her favors that she has not reciprocated in any way. I have a good heart.
5. 6. 7. 8. 9. 10. 11. 12. 13. 14. 15. 16. 17.
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Are You Too Whorish?
18. 19. 20. 21. 22. 23. 24. 25. 26. 27. 28. 29. 30. 31. 32.
I have tried to convince her that I really like her for her mind. I take orders from her or change my mind just to please her. I spend more time talking to her on instant messengers than I do talking to her in real life I spend more time talking to her on instant messengers than anyone else I have known her and hung out with her for several months and haven't done anything remotely sexual with her but want to I often end up with "blue balls" after encountering her She will undress in front of you and not think anything of it and say things like "Ah, sometimes I forget you're a guy! teehee!" You have asked her to help you find a girlfriend and she replies with "I really don't know any girls " You somehow end up doing all the inviting and she never reciprocates She breaks away from hugs quickly You spend any time more than a few minutes talking to her on instant messengers. You go out of my way to do things for her. You get sweaty and remember you didn't put on any deodorant around her. You trip over myself and act like a tard around her. She puts on make-up in front of you (as opposed to putting it on *for* you before she sees you).
Clue Me In
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moreonwhoredom.html
Whoremasters: The Pathology of the Intellectual Pimp

For every intellectual whore there must be an intellectual pimp. An intellectual pimp is defined as a woman that a man is an intellectual whore to. Here we will examine the relationship of a man to his intellectual pimp. We will examine the pathology of the intellectual pimp and enumerate the most common types of intellectual pimps.
Intellectual Whoredom is (usually) a Victimless Crime

Listen: Women who keep intellectual whores are not bad people. Unless they are not clear that they will not sleep with their intellectual whore and thus keep him enthralled by a false implied promise of future sexual activity. Then they are bad people. So I guess many of them are bad people. But if a grown-ass man knows that he has little to no chance to fuck and still lets himself become an intellectual whore, he has nobody to blame except for himself. Especially if he's read the Ladder Theory. Many intellectual whores get something out of the relationship--if they're masochists. Many of them are holding out for their intellectual pimp to realize how good they would be together. Those are called fools, and deserve every minute of mental anguish they suffer. Some men are so pussified they are unable to summarily dismiss a woman from their life if she won't sleep with him, even though this is usually the appropriate course of action. You probably only met her because you wanted to fuck her, why keep her around if you can't? Some women are interesting enough to keep around, or maybe are useful as footstools, but I almost never meet them. In any case, if she felt no obligation to fuck you, you should feel no obligation to keep her as a friend, which calls for much more time and energy.
Why Do Women Want Intellectual Whores?

Emotional Reasons "...becasue every guy you met since you was 16 has been trying to fuck you. Every time a man's being nice to you that's all he's doing is offering dick." Rabbi Chris Rock Lemma 1: Although they may not have been aware of it at the time, women who are even moderately attractive have had guys trying to fuck them since practically the day they hit fucking age. This is no surprise given society's obsession with youth and the general horniness of males. Women who aren't aware of this soon find it out however. If there is a woman over 16 who still thinks that guys she doesn't know come up to her and start making conversation because they think she looks like an interesting person she was probably raised by wolves or something. On a related note, this is probably why beautiful people tend to be boring. They never had to be interesting -- being beautiful was always interesting enough.
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moreonwhoredom.html
Lemma 2: As women age they become less and less attractive to men. Sure some mature women are still sexy, and plenty of people might like to fuck Goldie Hawn, but most women don't have the advantage of on-demand plastic sugery, full-time makeup artists, dieticians, flattering camera angles, and having 'looking good' as a job requirement. There simply are no old women that normal guys are really attracted to. Lots of women want to fuck Harrison Ford, Sean Connery, and Jack Nicholson. There is not a woman as old as any of those people that a guy would fuck on the grounds of being attracted to her. Sad fact of nature. Lemma 3: Women don't generally want to think of themselves as or be regarded as whores. It's a sad fact of socialization that women who like to have a lot of sex are called bad names. Whores are great, and we would do well to work toward making the words 'cocksucker' and 'whore' and 'slut' nonderogatory. Women eventually get tired of being wanted just for their body. Unless they're really ugly, in which case they'd probably be happy to be wanted for anything. That is why the easiest girls to score with are always the kind of ugly/fat best friends of really hot women. They get no attention from guys when they have to compete with their hot friend, but they can always get attention by putting out. It's kind of sad, but in terms of easy, a not-attractive-girl-with-low-self-esteem-and-a- really-hot-best-friend is about the safest bet you can make. Back to the matter at hand. Just like intellectual whores get tired of only being wanted for their minds. Even the hottest woman entertains fantasies of a man who really really wants her for her mind, her personality, all of those inner attributes that really make her who she is. She knows that she can use her body to get what she wants, every woman knows that on some level. The success of such will depend on how nice her body is of course...Christie Brinkley can use hers to catch real-estate moguls. The girl down the street may just be able to get into clubs for free, or get a drink bought for her. At some point all but the shallowest women will want to know that they are good for something besides fucking, and so the intellectual whore is born. Gay guys and straight women are no good for this, a person who is not sexually attracted to you can't give you any kind of validation that you are wanted for your mind. If I only talk to you because you are no good for fucking, that's not as good a bolster for the ego as my knowing you are hot and not wanting to fuck you because I like you too much. Also women don't like each other very much. Obviously it can't be someone they are fucking. If you get someone you are fucking to listen to your story about how your father was emotionally distant or get them to go to the ballet with you, there's always the possibilty that they wouldn't have if you weren't fucking them. So what does that leave? Straight men who will actually listen to them and can be entertaining, smart, or funny. Straight men that will buy them food, be their emotional crutch, and go with them to places their
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boyfriends won't go. The intellectual whore offers both a useful service and a form of validation that no other person can match. A guy that puts up with all of the bullshit for none of the reward. A guy who does things for you and is so nice. A guy that clearly is a non-sexual being, he just likes you for you, that's why he listens to your shit for hours on end, and goes places with you, and gives you advice about guys, and loves the films of Bergman and the books of David Sedaris and Dave Eggers. And he likes you for you. You're cultured and intelligent. You can fuck as many outlaw bikers as you want -- you're not a shallow whore. Really. If you were, why would this sweet guy do all that for you...you really are worth more than the power you hold between your legs...no really you are....really. To recap: Usually a guy who would do all manner of things for a woman would have to be fucking her. Sometimes they find a guy who is willing to do shit for them even though he is not getting laid. This is like a guy finding a girl who wants to have sex and then leave. They basically get to feel like they are worth something more than the sex they have to offer, because here is this guy who is so sweet and all that crap who doesn't want to fuck them (they think).
Material Reasons: Some people are just users, and 'will use any scumbag for whatever I want....that just makes me smarter than you.' as one lovely young lady put it in an email to me. Sometimes it's just nice to have someone who will go get you coffee and go to a movie with you so you don't have to go alone. So there are material benefits to certain intellectual whores as well.
A Few Common Types of Intellectual Pimps To Look Out For

There are undoubtedly more archetypes than this one, but here are a few of the major ones to look for. 1. The Hot Woman: This is a woman who knows that she is attractive and that guys want to fuck her. She probably has a boyfriend or a stable of steady Outlaw Biker fucks. You were probably trying to fuck her and got tossed onto the friend ladder. Advantages as Intellectual Pimp: Hot women have busy social lives. Because of this, they are usually not very demanding on an intellectual whore's time. Also, it looks good to be seen with them. Try to get a picture of you with your hot Pimp and then tell other women that was your fiancee who died. Disadvantages: Because they are used to having their ass kissed, when they do require your time, they are generally more demanding. You'd think they would have hot friends you could go after, but hot women of course see all other hot women as threats and often as not will put you off-limits to their hot friends. Also, if you don't rank highly on her ladder, what makes you think that you'll be high up on the ladder of her hot friends? This usually leads to being around hot women that you still can't fuck.
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Ladder Jumping Prospects: Make sure to get your last rites administered before you attempt this ladder jump. 2. The Ugly Friend: This is a woman that we should all empathize with on some level. This is the woman who has a hot friend. She herself is not hot. This usually leads to guys talking to her so they can try to fuck her friend. Eventually she learns that she can get attention from guys by putting out, since she'll never otherwise get attention when with her hot friend. Of course some guys won't fuck her still because they think it will jeopardize their chances with the hot friend. Advantages:Not being hot, they are easier to say 'no' to. Also you don't feel so bad about not fucking because you probably don't want to very much anyway. You can try to fuck the hot friend to amuse yourself. Disadvantages: Even when you don't want to fuck someone, you still want them to want to fuck you. Many men can't handle the ego blow of a girl they don't find attractive not wanting to fuck them. Ladder Jumping Prospects: Say 5 Hail Mary's and 4 Our-Fathers before attempting this jump.
3. The Innocent: This is a woman who has led a sheltered life, watched too many Sandra Bullock movies, or is just an idealistic soul who refuses to see what is right in front of her. Advantages: She'll generally not suspenct any nefarious activity from you, and thus is less guarded around you. Since you're such good friends you can initiate a lot of physical contact with her before she gets uncomfortable. Disadvantages: If she has a boyfriend she's probably actually loyal to him, believing in romantic principles as she does. She probably won't be able to tell you anything useful about how to get a woman off, or will be unwilling to discuss it. Ladder Jumping Prospects: If she is in a relationship have the last rites administered first. If not, and you sound sincere, say 5 Acts of Contrition, 4 Hail-Mary's and 7 Our-Fathers. If you don't sound convincing, say 10 Hail Mary's and 50 Our Fathers.
Me and Germaine Greer, or How I Realized I was a Feminist
Me and Germaine Greer, or How I Learned to Stop Worrying And Embrace Feminism
I used to think that I had nothing in common with the feminist agenda. Indeed, I had a distorted view of what feminism stood for until I read ber-feminist Germaine Greer's book The Whole Woman. Written in 1999 as a follow-up to her earlier feminist classic The Female Eunuch, I learned a lot from the book, which combines a lot of good ideas with a lot of really laughable ones. But I agree with a lot of what she says and if she is representative of feminism then I am proudly a feminist. The following are choice quotes that I agree with and commentary. It could be argued that women's increasing economic independence removed part of the rationale for marriage. If a husband is one who supports a wife and children he is fast becoming obsolete--not because of feminism but because it takes two pay packets to run a home with 'all modern conveniences The voluntary stay at home wife is now the prerogative of the rich man only. Pg. 245 The absurdity of the notion that there is someone 'out there' for everybody is obvious to anyone who has thought about it more than five seconds. Women's lives would be a lot easier if they started from the opposite premiss, that there is nobody 'out there' and they might as well get on with life and work. Pg. 246 Wedding as pantomime has largely replaced wedding as sacrament. People who have lived together and found it good simply decide to have a party. Pg. 255 Comment: I'm with her so far. The realization that marriage, soul mates and so forth is an outdated concept is something I'm right in line with. For the IW take on marriage, see here. That's right women, unless you are at the top of the woman food chain you'll probably have to work anyway, so what's the point of getting married? In post industrial societies it is individuals who marry; the nuptial agreement is seen as involving two people only. Even the children they may have together are not party to the agreement between spouses. That agreement has been reliant from the first on the intensity and durability of the sexual attraction between them. If the sexual attraction should lose its potency, if another attraction should eclipse it, the marriage is deemed dead. Such a system is bound to fail; no person can guarantee to be sexually attracted to another for as long as they both shall live. Sex is too anarchic a force and fat too responsive to fantasy to serve as the mortar holding together the building blocks of society. . . modern marriage is fragile because the demands made upon it exceed the tensile strength of the initial sexual bond. Studies of the frequency of sexual intercourse between the spouses are neither numerous nor reliable, but they all demonstrate the same pattern. The frequency of marital sexual intercourse declines precipitously after the first year before leveling out to a steady, shallow decline. Wives are not sexy. Male sexuality demands the added stimulus of novelty. pg. 258
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Comment: Exactly. The male sexuality requires novelty. Brilliantly stated, and answers so many questions. Why did he leave me when I was so good to him? Why does Hugh Grant need to get a hooker when he has Liz Hurley at home, why does a guy ditch his wife of 30 years for a 22 year old....The male sexuality requires novelty. Indeed. A few men hate all women all the time, some men hate some women all of the time, and all men hate some women some of the time. Pg 281 Comment: Dr. Greer is most famous for her comment in The Female Eunuch that "Women have very little idea how much men hate them." This is I guess her follow-up to that. Of course this is probably true if you reverse women and men in this sentence as well. ...boys grow up convinced that they are lovable regardless of their appearance or their behavior. The saddest, smelliest, most shambling male individual still imagines that women will find him attractive and is prepared to act on that assumption. And he considers himself entitled to criticize any and all aspects of a woman's appearance as harshly as any other male. Pg 291 The biological truth is the opposite, all biologists know that males are defective females. Though external genitalia are the expression of that chromosomal defect, their removal will not alter the chromosomal fact... Pg 65 Comment:Okay so she can get a little bit out there. Of course guys feel they can criticize a woman's appearance. I guess Dr. Greer is saying that ugly guys don't have the right to opinions about women. The second is just...interesting in a kind of crazy way. The truth seems to be that men resent having to work and harbor a positive ambition to do nothing, which women do not share. A love of idleness is another characteristic that male Homo sapiens has inherited from ho anthropoid ancestors; an animal behavior researcher observed 'that she would find it exceedingly difficult to to observe a lone male gorilla for 8 hours because he does so little.' Females, be they gorillas or worker bees, are naturally busy, which suggests another cause of men's irritability with women who penetrate their territory. Pg. 122 Comment: Exaclty. See men are gentically predisposed to not want women around when they are not sleeping with them. So in a sense, Dr. Greer is supporting the case that men and women can not really be friends. I mean, after all, we have genetically different predispositions on the level of wanting to do something versus wanting to do nothing. Many of the women who will this year shed a husband who thinks that he has behaved as well as could be expected will do so because he is just too much trouble. The cost in human terms of feeding him, grooming him, humoring him, and financing his recreation is way out of proportion with the contribution he makes in return, even if he is an attentive and sensitive lover. Pg 128 Comment: Exactly. And of course vice versa. Lots of men will discard wives who have become too
much trouble, as the cost of financing their shoes, food, clothes, manicures, telling them they look good and the decreasing sex become more trouble than it is worth. Women are not the point of pornography. Pornography is the flight from women, men's denial of sex as a medium of communication, their denial of sex as the basis for a relationship, their rejection of fatherhood, their perpetual incontinent adolescence. The victims of pornography are men not women. Pornography makes men leaky vessels, and undoes the principal male virtue of continence. As men's real power dwindles, pornography is their refuge. Fear of commitment is inseparable from indulgence in pornography. Masturbation is easy; relationships are difficult. Relationships interfere with masturbation. Pg. 182 Comment:First off, earlier in the book Dr. Greer said that sex shouldn't be the basis for a relationship. She called it too anarchic a force. Now she is telling us that men are bad people for doing it. Which is it? But anyway, most of the stuff she said about pornography there is true. But I'm not sure why this is a bad thing. If women are walking out on marriage, and marriage is as terrible as Dr. Greer makes it out to be earlier in the book, why wouldn't we fear it? Then isn't pornography a good thing? I think so. You and I need all the mothers we can get. Governments rely for the funds that run our societies on tx on current earnings; the people now in work pay for the care and support of the people who are not in work. As the workforce shrinks and life-expectance increases it becomes harder and harder to pay the Socail Security bill. We all need the children being born now and we need them to grow up as welleducated, useful people, not circling aimlessly around the poverty trap. In The Female Eunuch I argued that motherhood should be regarded as a genuine career option, that is to say, as paid work and as such an alternative to other paid work. What this would mean is that every woman who decides to have a child would be paid enough money to raise that child in decent circumstances. Pg. 205 Comment:Even for the ultra-feminist, it still is about the money huh? Now she's argiung women should be paid for popping out kids? Why not pay the fathers also? Doesn't every mother imply a father? Why don't we all give up working and just be mothers and fathers? Well actually I would kind of be in favor of that, but then again I'm some kind of communist/anarchist/socialist something. Unfortunately I think this is unskilled labor. After all, every hoodrat and white trash teenager can do it with no training at all.
Conclusion
Even for all of her crazy talk, Dr. Greer, and the ultra-feminist movement that she embodies are basically correct in many of their points. Indeed, enough so that I would classify myself as a feminist. Let us all embrace Dr. Greer and abandon silly notions of marriage, and dependence on men, and remember that men want to do nothing. Don't fault us for it, embrace our genetic differences.
On Marriage
On Marriage and the Ladder
General Review of the Sex Situation Woman wants monogamy; Man delights in novelty. Love is woman's moon and sun; Man has other forms of fun. Woman lives but in her lord; Count to ten, and man is bored. With this the gist and sum of it, What earthly good can come of it? By the time you swear you're his, Shivering and sighing And he vows his passion is Infinite, undying Lady make a note of this: One of you is lying. -- Dorothy Parker Why, the whole world is strewn with snares, traps, gins, and pitfalls for the capture of men by women. Give women the vote, and in five years there will be a crushing tax on bachelors. --G.B. Shaw, epistle to Arthur Bingham Walkley
We All Know Marriage Is Broken, But Here Are More Statistics Anyway
First, infidelity and divorce statistics would indicate that most people don't stop trying to move up the ladder even after they are married. "About 50% of first marriages for men under age 45 may end in divorce, and between 44 and 52% of women's first marriages may end in divorce for these age groups. The likelihood of a divorce is lowest for men and women age 60, for whom 36 % of men and 32 percent of women may divorce from their first marriage by the end of their lives. " divorce stats from the census department And of course that's just the people who are honest about how crappy their marriages are. Infidelity
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On Marriage
studies are hard to do accurately, but if anything would be underestimates since logically a person would be more likely to lie about cheating than to lie about being faithful, are not very heartening either. "; The latest, still-unpublished research shows that about 24% of men and 14% of women have had sex outside their marriages. "; USA Today, 12.21.98 Peggy Vaughan, author of The Monogamy Myth says ";You cannot trust anybody on a subject like this."; About 60% of men and 40% of women will have an extramarital affair at some time in her estimation. Since these people are not always married to each other, about 80% of marriages are touched according to Peggy. Of course, she's selling a book about how to get over an affair, so to her 100% infidelity would be a good statistic. However, between 24-60% of men and 14-40% of women is pretty high. Since we can assume that not all of these couples get divorced, we have a lot of marriages that aren't living up to the ideal. The idea of steady sex after marriage turns out to be basically false as well. As Germaine Greer has noted in her book The Whole Woman, " Studies of the frequency of sexual intercourse between the spouses are neither numerous nor reliable, but they all demonstrate the same pattern. The frequency of marital sexual intercourse declines precipitously after the first year before leveling out to a steady, shallow decline. "
Relation to the Ladder

Note that these statistics enforce common anecdotal evidence and the ideas of Ladder Theory. In a nutshell, the younger you get married, the more likely you are to divorce. And the divorce rates are quite high. The Ladder Theory would say that this is only natural. The point of life, or at least one possible point to life in a meaningless Universe, is to move up the Ladder, always finding someone better than you have at the time. The older you get, the harder this becomes, thus giving you less incentive to get divorced. It also reinforces the words of the Prophet Rock -- ";A man is only as faithful as his options."; This would be predicted by the man's pie chart, since familiarity breeds contempt, and the longer you are with someone the less attractive they become sexually. We all know that marriage is generally a bad proposition. Why then do people get married? For women the question is easier, as there are a number of obvious factors we can point to. First off, nature is more cruel to women, and they have a prime of desireability that diminishes very rapidly after a certain point. Since a woman's desireability is at least 50% based on looks, this is a major factor. A man can be rich and therefore wanted forever. I propose a thought experiment. Name one woman men actually find attractive enough to want to fuck that is as old as Sean Connery, Harrison Ford, or even Mel Gibson. There might be a couple in the world. Maybe.
On Marriage
There are some other arguments about biology and nesting instinct and such that I won't go into here. They are probably valid and I'm sure everyone knows them. That being said there are a few valid reasons for men to get into a conventional marriage. Topping out the Ladder As per Ladder Theory, sometimes a man gets to a point where he realistically will not be able to get a better woman unless he comes into a considerable amount of money. In this case he might as well get married. Crazy religious people. Some people are religion crazy and refuse to have sex before marriage. While I find it interesting that people can deny biology and human nature, it is certainly abnormal in contemporary Western society. If this is the only way you're going to get laid, then marriage starts to make more sense. In this case just replace ";would have sex with"; with "; Lack of existential grounding A lot of people are just afriad to be alone, or they want something to give meaning to their lives. They have not come to terms with the fact that nothing will give their life meaning, because existence itself is meaningless. People are defined by their actions, and give their own lives meaning -- getting married out of fear is not a great endorsement of character. Cultural brainwashing There is a whole music and movie industry built around giving people a completely false idea of love, marriage, and romance. Is it any wonder people get divorced so much when they realize that the pressures of an actual relationship aren't like the way the latest Sandra Bullock movie or pop song represented them. There is nothing wrong with escapism, but increasingly people are not recognizing it as such and the image has become the model for the reality, instead of being cynically rejected as a projected fantasy like it should be. So if you believe in soul mates and the one perfect person for you and other such dribble, then by all means, get married. The 0.001% OKay, here's the problem. If you find a perosn in that 0.01% of people that you could spend your life with without killing them, then maybe you should get married. Of course, the problem is everyone thinks this is the case, mostly when it's not (statistically, it's unlikely). You would do well to remember the world of Rilke "But young people err so often and so grievously in this: that they (in whose nature it lies to have no patience) fling themselves at each other, when love takes possession of them, scatter themselves, just as they are, in all their untidiness, disorder, confusion ...and then what? What is life to do to this heap of half-battered existence which they call their communion and which they would gladly call their happiness, if it were possible, and their future? Thus each loses himself for the sake of the other and loses the other and many others that wanted still to come. And loses the expanses and the possibilites, exchanges the approach and flight of gentle, divining things for an unfruitful perplexity out of which nothing can come any more, nothing save a little disgust, disillusionment and poverty..."
Intellectual Whoredom and Marriage
On Marriage
The biggest problem with traditional Western marriage is it makes you into a quasi intellectual whore. What I mean by this is that you are obligated to listen to all the crap and problems of your mate, but you are not even allowed to go get a hooker to satisfy your needs when she doesn't want to fuck you as much as she used to. Increasingly men don't want to get married. The reasons are manifold, but include not needing to to get laid, and the fear of losing half of one's money. But there are good things about marriage: tax benefits, someone else to do stuff you don't want to, someone around to have sex with occasionally, extra money from their working, and I hear that the number one turn-on to other women is a wedding ring. But even with these advantages, it's no wonder that that men cheat, or want to cheat. As time goes on a woman's looks will eventually have to deteriorate, thus moving them down the man's ladder. Her putting out also relatively decreases, and so other women are bound to move past her on the ladder. Marriage should be a yearly contract Intellectual Whores recommends the following system for the future of marriage. First of all, let's reject all notions of eternity from the outset. When marriage was created, forever was a lot less daunting than it is today. Forever back then was a lot less time than it is with the advent of modern medicine, etc. Also people don't need to get married so they can have kids to help them work the fields as was the case in many pre-industrial societies. So we will go back to the old Irish way of making marriage an annual contract. Every year, each spouse will have the option to renew the contract or walk away. This way people don't stay together just because it is a pain in the ass to get divorced. Polygamy will now be legal The problem polygamy has had is that societies have always structured it to benefit only the male members of society. There is good evidence now that women are just as genetically promiscuous as men, and should be able to benefit as such. Because after all, what should the state care how many wives someone has? As long as all involved are consenting. Some rules will be applied to protect women Infidelity will be accepted as long as it is with a state inspected and approved disease-free prostitute. If a woman marries a rich man, who then leaves her, she will be entitled to the amount the average common prostitute would have made, adjusted for inflation of course, in the same time period in addition to a percentage of his assets. This will remind women that prostitutes are good people also, and help us all learn tolerance. So that a woman does not have to worry about her man sneaking around, she will be incharge of arranging for all prostitutes and finding potential second consorts or wives for the man. The first wife will be deferred to in all civil actions or judgments to prevent women from being left penniless when the man upgrades to a younger and better woman. The first wife will always be given custody of any children produced if the man takes another wife.
On Marriage
This system would solve the problem of marital infidelity by realizing that that is an anachronistic notion. Similarly it will recognize that people change over time and should be allowed to easily erase mistakes like marriage. It will not impose undue burdens on men and women for getting married, because it is an excuse for a great party... In conlusion, the Ladder Theory is consistent with the state of modern marriage, and we at Intellectual Whores would like to propose this new system for a new millenium, since the current system is outdated and quite obviously broken.
Why Intellectual Whores
Why Intellectual Whores?

This term is often misunderstood so I thought I would take a moment to explain what it means and where it came from. This should also help you determine if you are an intellectual whore yourself. In 1978 the great Woody Allen published a book called Getting Even. In it was a story called "The Whore of Mensa." It was about men who were dating beautiful but stupid women, and had to hire whores to talk to them about intellectual topics. Although the term is not used in the story, I've always thought of that as an "intellectual whore." So this planted the seed of the term. Later in life I started encountering a certain breed of woman. To begin with they never wanted to sleep with me. Now, this by itself is okay--not all women will want to sleep with me. However, this particular breed wanted to have me around to talk to and to make them laugh, because I was so "entertaining" and "funny." Some of them went so far as to describe our relationship as that of "friends", and a few even had the audacity to talk to me about problems they had with other guys. Later I realized what had been happening. I was being used for their amusement and entertainment while they were busy fucking outlaw bikers. Of course they weren't interested in me sexually; they were too busy with guys with forearm tattoos. But apparently they still needed some intellectual stimulation. That's when they would call me with an opening line like "Tell me something interesting." or some other not-to-subtle line. I recalled the term intellectual whore and applied it to this situation. These women had made me into their intellectual whore. Since then I have dedicated a large part of my life to avoiding this trap, and the various bitches that try to put you in it. In short, it does not refer to a "smart slut" as it were, but rather to males who are kept around by women for their mental entertainment. These men usually want to sleep with these women who usually consider these men friends.
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Women and Intellectual Whoredom
Women and Intellectual Whoredom: A Very Weak Link

A number of women I know insist on calling themselves " intellectual whores " from time to time, or have asked about why I don't include more about female versions of myself. There is a very good reason for this: it is almost impossible for a woman to be an intellectual whore. Why can't a woman be an intellectual whore? It is useful I think, to start off with a nutshell definition of an intellectual whore. A useful definition is: person A is an intellectual whore to person B if person A wants to shag person B and person B will not shag person A but keeps person A around for entertainment, emotional support etc... First off let's look at how men achieve this miserable status and from there look at how it is virtually impossible for females. A number of things have to be true for the man to be an intellectual whore: 1. The man wants to have sex with the woman 2. The woman has to not want to have sex with him. 3. She has to be interested in keeping him around for other things Now let's apply these principles in symmetry. 1. The woman wants to have sex with the man 2. The man has to not want to have sex with the woman 3. The man hs to be interested in keeping the woman around for reasons other than sex Item one is perhaps common, almost certainly more common than men think. However, a lot of the time men are not aware that this is the case. Just for the sake of fair argument let's assume that it is common as a man wanting to have sex with a woman. It's in the number two and three that the strength of my position becomes apparent. Just from personal experience I don't know many guys that would turn down sex from a woman. There are reasons a guy would turn down sex, and it will be useful to list them here:
q q q
The guy is gay The guy finds you repulsive and is sober The guy has someone higher on the ladder already. If you haven't read the ladder theory, then if the guy thinks you are beneath him.
So assuming these things are not true, then we have a situation where a guy does not want to have sex
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Women and Intellectual Whoredom
with a woman. And wants to keep her around. Now it's possible that a guy has a religious reason for not wanting to sleep with you, or he's a prude, or is diseased, or something. So let's assume you find a guy who will not sleep with you for no apparent reason. Then he still has to want to keep you around for other reasons. Now what would those resaons be? Let's face it, guys and girls have little in common. Girls generally don't like to do guy things like play poker, go to the strip club, watch football, or sit around and watch porn. The ones that do, bless you. But in general they don't. So why would guys want to keep a girl around. Most likely it is because the girl is repulsive or lower than the guy can do. So for all you girls who think you are intellectual whores, think about this first: are you sure that the guy knows you want to have sex with him? And if so, are you sure he finds you attractive? And does he want you around just to talk to? If you answered yes to all these questions, which is unlikely, you might be an intellectual whore. So in conclusion, a girl can be an intellectual whore to a guy. IF she is repulsive, he is gay, or he has someone better than her already. Other than that and he probably just hasn't gotten around to nailing you yet.
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The Symmetry Of The Ladder Theory
Symmetry and The Ladder

When I introduce women who can handle it to the ladder theory the only aspect most tend to like is the concept of the intellectual whore. They think it's an insightful concept and they are attracted to it to the point where they want to be one. I've heard many females say that's a hole in the ladder theory, that they are intellectual whores. Then in response I highly emphasize how rare it is for a woman to be an intellectual whore. They contest and I ask them to give me the situations details and here's an example of a real situation a chick gave me to prove she was an intellectual whore: CHICK:He just calls me and vents all his shit onto me, I am just a dumping ground for all his problems. He doesn't care about me or what I think or anything, he just uses me to talk to and leaves afterwards. ME: Would he fuck you? CHICK: Well...yeah, he's asked me several times but I say no. ME: Women don't want to fuck their intellectual whores that defeats the whole point. He's closer to being your intellectual whore then you are to being his but neither of you are really. He's just a guy who wanted to fuck you that couldn't that made the best of the situation by finding a chick to bitch to. Rather smart of him. Girls have often thought of a half assed situation like that quickly to prove their intellectual whoredom, that's how eager they are to be that. And not only that but to seem to be that to other people. I wondered "what makes it so attractive?" But now I realize it's symmetry: Women are very attracted to the concept of intellectual whore, they are attracted to it to the point where they want to be it, think about it, women are rarely intellectual whores and they'd love to be....just like guys are very attracted to the concept of a whore to the point where they want to be one,think about it, men are rarely whores and they'd love to be....it's easy for women to be whores and they want to be intellectual whores....it's easy for men to be intellectual whores and they want to be whores.....perfect symmetry..the ladder theory has perfect symetry. Except for one detail that is not a fault in the theory: This same woman who gave me the above scenario said: "Well if the only 3 situations in which a guy wouldn't do a chick is 1.he doesn't find her attractive 2.he's gay 3.he has somebody much higher than the ladder then isn't the only 3 reasons a girl wouldn't do a guy 1.she doesn't find him attractive 2.she's gay 3.she has somebody much higher on the ladder ? "
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I said "No, 4.Societal constraint" Women have societal constraint to hold them back from sex while men have societal pressure which is the exact opposite of a deterrent or cause of aversion. Society constantly gives reasons for men to have more sex while pressuring the exact opposite of women. In our society a mans character is defined by his sexual prowess while a womans is defined by her sexual resistance. This is not how it is supposed to be as this sets up 2 opposing goals for on species that should be working to advance society. There are many exceptions, people who think for themselves, but even those usually had a period of time in which they operated under society's skewed code. Following society's conflicting ideals doesn't mean one is submissive as one is usually gradually cultivated into such views gradually as opposed to one day conforming to them. Societal constraint is a huge fucking deal because that's the whole kind of thing that leads to anti-slutdefenses(see www.fastseduction.com/ for more on this term and what it means) and girls being called whores while guys are pimps for the same shit....all that shit holds girls back from sexual activity thus fucking up the symetry,while many people would like to say men cause this by their oppression of women let's look at another example situation: Guy to a crowd of guy friends: I laid 3 chicks last night. Guy friends: Yeah or Right on or Good Job, either way it's words of encouragement. Guy to a crowd of chick friends: I laid 3 chicks last night. Chick friends: Pig! or something discouraging along those lines Girl to a crowd of guy friends:I laid 3 guys last night Guy friends: Slut! or something discouraging along those lines because it wasn't them Girl to a crowd of chick friends:I laid 3 guys last night Chick friends: Slut! or something discouraging along those lines Who fucked up the symmetry? Chicks for not encouraging and supporting their own. Now i know there are exceptions there are guys out there who would've discouraged their guy friends from the 3 lays.
there guys out there who would have encouraged or supported a chick friend for the 3 lays. There are chicks out there who would have supported and or encouraged the 3 lays but in general typically speaking, there is symetry in that situation except for in general women discouraging other from sexual activity....so IN GENERAL (I know not all) women fuck up the symetry thus creating a need for a ladder theory. -Tristan Acker
Denial of Desire - The Fox Grapes Theory

Ok, I have majorly revised my original article and added many new sections; I am now posting the new version because the old thread got too big. Thanks to Bean, Will the IW, Protagonist, Retrofit, and the rest for suggestions. Thanks to rickster and neuroflex for supplying living proof of my points. I would love to hear most comments and suggestions. This article is also intended to help any one of us trying to explain our side of things to women, or help IW friends see the light and free them from the matrix. Lately I noticed a lot of people on the forum making excuses for not wanting sex, being celibate, or being intentional IWs. I gave several responses to try to convince them to change their ways, and in doing so I came to some realizations about why some guys resist the ladder theory and continue in their IW ways. Some of this stuff might sound like common sense to you guys, but I think it will help if I begin to clarify it and put it into written format. (Cliff notes: This article expains why guys should follow their desires instead of denying them.) These guys are afflicted with what I am calling "Fox/Grapes" Syndrome. I am of course alluding to the classic Aesop fable for children here: http://www.bartleby.com/17/1/31.html Basically the fox fails to get the grapes, so he comforts himself by deciding that they were probably sour anyway. A guy with fox/grapes syndrome is making a similar mistake by convincing himself that women or sex is sour, because he needs to deal with the fact that he is not getting any. He is finding a treatment for the problem, not a cure. I have been there. I have done that. It sucked. I hope I can spare other guys the pain. He simply needs to learn how to do what is necessary to get the grapes, instead of learning how to live in some form of denial. Here is my thesis: any man (over 16 or 17, with normal sex drive) who convinces himself there is some reason he should not have sex or relationships with women is hurting himself and probably in some kind of denial. Any man who has read LT and continues in his IW ways trying to get women is guilty of the same thing. _____________________________________________________________ Now we will look at some manifestations of this problem and how they tie in with the ladder theory: When a guy realizes that he is not having the success he wants with women, and decides that he needs to change, he will probably be soon undergo some of the following, in some kind of combination or order.
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I. Low self-esteem: He decides his failures with women are his fault, and that there is something wrong with him, likes his looks, his personality, or whatever. This can lead the guy to try to improve his looks, or his connections, or his finances. He might even land a girl by accident. In the extreme, he might resort to suicide, rape or murder. II. Misogyny: He blames women for his failures with them and decides there is something wrong with them. Strangely enough, according to LT this attitude can make him slightly more attractive to women, so again, he might be able to attract a girl purely by accident. III. Denial-Based Mindsets and Worldviews: He must reconcile the fact that he is a good person, yet he can't get women. So he creates himself a skewed view of the world to maintain his self esteem. Examplesa nice guy self-image, religious/ scientific/moral justifications, a victim mindset, or escapism. I'm sure there are more that I haven't listed. Of course, if a guy has religious/scientific/moral/political beliefs, he is not necessarily guilty of being like the fox with the grapes. Everyone's worldview is skewed in some way. What I mean here is that anyone who skews their worldview even more to justify not fulfilling their healthy desires is playing the fox. Here is the kind of dialogue that might be playing in the guy's head. He is deluding himself, but he doesn't know any better. I think most guys will find this familiar: "I am a good person. Yet I do not get women. If there is nothing wrong with me, and nothing wrong with them, so there must be some reason why I am not having the success I desire. I do not get women, so maybe there is some reason why I shouldn't get women, or I shouldn't want women...[now he thinks up some justifications like the ones I shall list]" (Of course, this kind of self delusion is not limited to guys trying to get girls. Both men and women do it in many areas, such as making money i.e. "I am a hard working person. Yet I don't make much money. There must be some reason why I shouldn't have/want money..." My article is written about women, yet most of it applies to just about any deep desire.) Being around attractive women is bittersweet when he knows that he will not be able to have sex with them. Every guy knows this intuitively. However, some guys get addicted to the sweet part of unfulfilled lust, and they learn to sooth the pain of the bitter part. So they create a belief system or self-image which allows them to sooth or deny the pain. At least his self esteem is not so badly damaged following this path. However, a warped worldview is hard to maintain. I tried. I failed. It sucked. Now I know better. Every time he sees a hot girl, or hears his friends talking about chicks, he must remind himself of his justifications for not getting women. Living in denial takes perpetual work. Here is another manifestation of such skewed thinking: "I am not going to change my identity just to get girls." So he simply sits and watches the ladies pass him by. At some point, he needs to make a choice: is he willing to do what it takes? More on this in my conclusion.
The problem with denial-based systems is that they create dissonance between what the guy wants, and what he thinks he can or should get. Eventually, after years of denial, he might get so good at it that he has removed most of the pain. Repression becomes second nature for him and he doesn't realize it anymore. Many adult males have followed this path. I genuinely feel sorry for them.
i. The nice guy self image: He becomes an IW. He might decide that he is destined to be a guy who is "not good with girls," and contents himself with IW mediocrity. However, he still might try to win the approval and affection of women, so he starts (or continues) doing things for them and supplicating. In this case, he becomes completely taken for granted and used by IPs or ninja bitches (ninja bitch = intentional IP). In the end, he continues doing things for girls to maintain his own self-image as a nice guy. This is what happened to me. He still can't resist approaching women, yet the only way he can make himself comfortable doing it is by further repressing his sexual interest in them. He hides his sexuality, so women whore him and treat him like a doormat, instead of like a man. To maintain this self-image, he sometimes takes supplication to the extreme. He may believe that he is acting completely altruistically; yet there is still a part of him that wants to bang her. He may not be able to admit it, but either consciously or unconsciously he still wants her. Everything he does will still be influenced by his desire to sleep with her, even if he has consciously realized that this will never happen. He believes that someday he will "get lucky" with women (because he doesn't know how to attract them), and someday he might by pure accident. He will probably have one-itis. He will get used as an IW and maybe even pulled into a marriage. He will stay in this relationship not because of "love," but because he has low confidence in his own ability to find a new women in a decent amount of time. Often he will be the provider. He may depend on his IP for validation of himself. Our culture calls this "finding true love." Perhaps he might get sex a few times, but this is an accident, and probably just occurs for kids, or his IP wife feels it is her obligation. Of course the original ladder theory has a lot more detail on nice guys. ii. Religious/scientific/moral/political justification: Religion or morals might teach that having sex, or at least casual sex, is wrong, superficial, or only meant for procreation. He will embrace these beliefs because they excuse his mediocrity with women. He might even embrace celibacy. However, there is one thing that will not change (unless he gets an operation or becomes a eunuch): sex feels good, and he physically wants to have it. Sure, he can rationalize all day that desire is only electrical signals interpreted by his brain, or sinful desires from the devil, but that will not make those very powerful signals/desires go away. He cannot rationalize away testosterone! He may be using rationalizations or theories to explain why he is not getting women, or why he shouldn't want women;
yet again, this is a treatment, not a cure. Note on religion: Just because a guy is religious, it doesn't mean he is afflicted with fox/grapes syndrome. Only if he is using religion to curtail what he wants or to hurt himself emotionally. Religion and the ladder theory can coexist; as long as his faith is his ally instead of holding him back. iii. The Victim Mindset Instead of (or in addition to) blaming himself, or women, he blames the world. He believes that "fate" or "the gods" or something is dooming him to a life with no sex or happiness. Extreme bitterness and chronic alcoholism might ensue (though it is not limiting to this mindset). This mentality can often accompany low self-esteem or celibacy. iv. Escapism: He convinces himself that he doesn't, or shouldn't want sex, that he doesn't have time for it, or that it is somehow not for him, or not important in the greater scheme of things. So he withdraws from it. Virtual celibacy is often the result. Escapism usually happens in combination with some of the mindsets I mentioned above. He might try to convince himself that he can block out lust. We all know that you can't really block it out; there is no "off" switch. God knows sometimes I wish there was. You know, just a little switch in the back of your head that you can flick when a hot, but unatainable girl is near? He can deny lust, but doing that is painful and very hard to do forever. He might use masturbation or porn to temporarily escape his sexual tension (note: masturbation and porn do not necessarily mean a guy is guilty of escapism.). In the end, he withdraws into a monastery (in past history) or immerses himself in his job, or traditional "guy" pastimes such as sports, computer games, math, or other nerdery. I would hypothesize that a large amount of discoveries in hardcore sciences or technology were by men following this path. I heard somewhere that the increasing popularity of football correlates with the decreasing success of the modern man with the ladies. A lot of guys are in such a situation. Note: just by enjoying his job/pastimes does not necessarily make him guilty of this type of escapism. Only if he is doing it to escape from his desires. Nerditude and escapism can often go hand-in-hand, but not always. However, sometimes in the process a man might attain enough money, power, or fame that he attracts women indirectly, again a strange accident. He can often get very attractive women as trophy wives, Unfortunately, it takes a lot of his life to get this kind of money and power. Our culture calls it "success." Sadly, he is spending thousands of dollars on materialism when he could do just as well with a new attitude (which costs $0). He also might end up spending some of his hard earned dough on prostitutes (though whoring is of course not limited just to this section). Note: If a man is accumulating money and power for the purpose of getting women, he is not guilty of this type of escapism. His is actually following part of LT without knowing it.
IV. He becomes a player/outlaw biker/pick up artist: He reads LT or comparable material, talks to friends, or somehow figures out how to do what is necessary to get women. This is what guys mean when they say "be a man/grow some balls/be the alpha male/go fuck ten other women." No longer are women a scourge on his self esteem, because he doesn't have to base his worldview on not getting them. There is a whole spectrum of "players." Here are the two extremes: a. The Outlaw Biker: Also known as the "jerk," or the "asshole." His strategy is "fuck and dump, rinse and repeat." He has naturally attracted women since the teenage years with his attitude and pure ego. He doesn't give a flying fuck about them or about anyone else, and so they make a beeline for him. He often doesn't treat women very well, and gives other guys a bad name. Historically, a much larger percent of the population was this type of outlaw biker. For instance, Vikings pillage town, and rape all women. Or old beliefs that women were only good for procreation. However, throughout the centuries, chivalry, feminism, and women's rights have made outlaw biker behavior less extreme (i.e. "political correctness"). This is a good thing in my opinion, but the guys who weren't outlaw bikers got caught in the cross fire. Society indoctrinates men at birth to not be outlaw bikers (exception=pop culture i.e. MTV). That is why nowadays there are so many IWs etc...However, what our culture, political correctness, and feminaziism don't realize is this: as long as some guys can be wilder, more novel, more disinterested, and better looking than others, there will always be outlaw bikers. It doesn't matter how pussified men get, as long as the are all equally pussified, there will always be outlaw bikers. It doesn't matter what the rules are, as long as they can be broken, there will always be outlaw bikers. Take a bunch of extremely polite and posh British gentlemen from the 1800s (heh my parents are British). Put them on a desert island with chick. She will make a beeline for whichever one of them is closest to OBness. A famous punk rocker pothead (the outlaw biker of the present) has basically the same attitude as a Viking chief (the outlaw biker of the past). The only difference is that Mr. Viking pillages towns and rapes women at swordpoint while the punk rocker simply has a few body piercings and plays bad music. Advantages: OBs get sex naturally, often from day one. Disadvantages: They make the world hell for women and other guys. They might end up in jail. They rarely can teach other guys to be more successful with women because they do it naturally themselves. b. The Pick-up Artist (PUA) : You could also call him the "serial charmer." He understands the art and science of attracting women. He might use any of a myriad of techniques to seduce women as exemplified on www.fastseduction.com. He is often a recovering IW or nice guy who has consciously improved his inner game (self-esteem, confidence, attitude, etc...) and outer game (techniques and approaches). Eventually he gains control or his own mental and sexual state, and the state of women he seduces. He might change so much that he appears, or even merges with the outlaw bikers. I predict that
more and more guys will be following this path in the future as information such as LT and fastseduction become more popular. This is the path I, and alot of people on this forum are on. I have tried most of the denial-based paths and they just don't work. Advantages: The PUA's scientific approach can lead him to have much more sex than OBs (of similar wealth/power) because he can learn from his mistakes. He can often get lots of sex on a clean conscience (whereas extreme OBs don't have much of a conscience). Disadvantages: You can't start out a PUA. It can take him alot of rejection, practice, and studying for him to get success. It ain't easy. All an OB has to do is be himself. In context: Most players fall somewhere in between these two poles. For example, there are outlaw bikers with a conscience that treat women well (though this seems to be less than 5% of OBs). There are also PUAs that teach themselves to not give a flying fuck about women. If you want, you could say that OBs are controlled by their testosterone while PUAs control their testosterone. Our culture sees only one type of player: the OB. That is why players in generally get a bad name. _____________________________________________________________ Conclusion: Seeing the Need to Change You could say that modern men are somewhere in between these four extremes: Outlaw Biker (OB), Pick-up artist (PUA), Nice Guy, and Nerd Escapist. Each guy starts out at a different point depending on his upbringing, culture, and genetic makeup. Throughout his life, he will hopefully move up to a level of sex that satisfies him. For guys closer to OBness, getting drunk, watching Fight Club or MTV or James Bond, listening to enough Blink182/Korn/ Heavy metal, or getting told to "be himself" or "be a man" might be enough to get him laid a few times in his youth. For nicer or nerdier guys, it will take some healthy smacks on the head from the real world, exposure to LT, or an article like this one. For guys who want to fuck the really good looking women with the best personalities, it takes either a badass OB attitude, or fastseduction, or both. "Being Yourself" This is one of the most common pieces of advice that our society gives. For some guys, it will help them, by moving them closer to OB. For others, it will hold them back, by making them resist change. They develop the attitudes "I am not going to change to get girls," or "if a girl doesn't like me the way I am, I don't want her." Here is the way I look at it: having success with women is not so much about "changing yourself," it is also about bringing out what is already there. Some guys look at the process as a metamorphosis into something new. Others look at it as a journey of self-discovery. You can even take both views at the same time, whatever brings you the best results. No man is really capable of "being himself" when he is very unhappy (namely, when he is not fulfilling
his desire for sex). All those denial-based belief systems are manifestations of him trying to cope with his unhappiness. Guys in denial about getting women are usually not very happy, nor are they getting much sex. Therefore no man who is in denial is truly being himself. Personally, I began to see the need to change when I realized that I was creating a definition of "myself" that involved getting no sex. This just felt wrong, especially when I had to watch other guys (the OBs) who I considered less deserving having all the fun. Why shouldn't I, or any other guy, miss out on the healthy pleasures of life? Don't just about all guys deserve it? -- Tristan Acker _____________________________________________________________ Well, I didn't realize that all these thoughts would turn into such a long article. Writing it helped me clarify alot of my own feelings and beliefs, and I hope it does the same for you guys. I am happy to hear any questions, constructive criticism, or additions to it, because it is only a piece of the puzzle. EDIT (for rickster): some small updates on denial. EDIT (Thx Bean!): Removed the section on homosexuality because it was beyond the scope of my article, and because the ladder theory (which is my basis) is meant for heterosexual relationships. I also gave a note on religion to clarify, and added more to the section on belief systems. EDIT (Thx neuroflex and Protagonist): Added notes on age and eunuchs. I also added the section on the victim mindset and info on trophy wives. EDIT (Thx Will the IW): added a paragraph on IWs who are only comfortable approaching women by turning off their sexuality. EDIT (Thx Retrofit!!): Added the sections about players and moved it to the end. EDIT: Added more context and revised whole article. EDIT (Thx Quinine): added notes at end on guys who resist change. EDIT: I decided to move the the box and the sections on history/biology to my old post in the old thread. I decided they were beyond the scope of the article, but if anyone wants to read them, there they are. I replaced them with the "Being Yourself" conclusion. _________________ Get off the cross; we need the wood.
Anon's Theory of Fluctuating Attraction
Anon's Law of Fluctuating Attraction

The Story Template
Picture the scene: you're at a party with your friends one night. You're talking to your friends and drinking, having a GREAT time. You might even have noticed a couple of hotties whilst you were in here, but have put them to the back of your mind. Cause right now, you're entertaining your friends. You're the center of attention, telling jokes and everybody's laughing. You've had a few to drink (perhaps three) and are perhaps feeling very mildly buzzed. Looking up from your friends, you see a nice looking girl. This girl looks at you in 'that' way and is slyly giving you the eye. Cool! You excuse yourself and walk over to her, introducing yourself. You're feeling pretty cocky. You get chatting to her. She plays with her hair, gazes at you intently and laughs far too hard at all your jokes. In short, you've got buying signals. Everything's going great and suddenly you wind up making out with her in the back of a taxicab and you've got a 10 digit number written on the back of your hand. Perhaps you even wind up having sex. You call her a few days later and she seems interested. Perhaps not quite as interested as she seemed before, but still into you. You arrange to meet up and everything seems to be going well. You talk, get to know each other, and maybe even make out with each other again. One date leads to another, and before you know it, YOU'RE still interested but she isn't. You're her intellectual whore. You remain friends, of course, and still go out together 'as friends'. You'll start to fall for her bad. She remains aloof. Bitch, huh? Why do they always do this? Soon, you stop caring and go back to looking at other women. She sees this and gets jumpy, right? After all, kitty cats DO compete...
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You actually MEET another girl and suddenly your intellectual pimp starts fading from your memory. You forget to return her calls. You forget the name of her latest boyfriend. You might even forget about the bruises he caused her ;-)She gets pissed. Why isn't her lap dog performing tricks like he should, huh? Suddenly, an awful sense of deja vu comes over you. You meet up accidentally, and you notice something different. Your intellectual pimp looks at you in 'that' way and is slyly giving you the eye...
What happened?
This story may sound familiar. It's happened to me at least twice, and I've heard variations on it so many times I've lost count. Whilst listening to one of these stories I decided to amuse myself by plotting a graph of hormone levels for the guy and the girl, against time. Here's something like what I came up with...
Oddly enough, all of these stories follow this SAME, PREDICTABLE pattern. After a while I got
suspicious.
Why?
Whilst it may SEEM like the girl is acting out of malice, in actual fact she's just reacting to you. We'll attempt to uncover just what happened... Remember when you first met her? Feeling pretty cocky, huh? Well, despite what the women's lib tell you, girls DO actually feel INCREDIBLY attracted to dominant, confident men. You were having a good time at the party that night, so naturally you felt pretty on top of things. The alcohol helped too. You probably didn't think the girl was THAT great looking to start with, but it's funny how attractive a girl can seem when she's gagging for your cock. Hence the increase in YOUR feelings for HER. After a few dates, you're starting to fall for her - naturally you become just like a puppy dog which turns her off immensely. Your attraction keeps on building; hers falls. And so on... until you meet the other girl. Suddenly you forget about girl A and stop acting like you care about her... which is, in fact, because you don't. You're over her. Something interesting happens now - she's seeing more dominant behaviour from you. Suddenly you stop taking all the shit she's giving you (using you as an emotional tampon, for instance) because, quite frankly, you don't care. Which brings us back to square one... And as soon as she shows a little interest in you, you suddenly become hooked again...
Anon's Theory of Hormonal Fluctuation
A posit on how effecting changes in hormonal activity in girls will affect the position of OTHER males on her ladder.
The Story Template
Well, you fancy this chick. She's hot and single and it looks like she might be interested. All good so far, wouldn't you say? It's not. Some other bastard - maybe a friend of yours, maybe not - is also interested. Maybe you don't even know about him, but he's there. Time passes and you see each other occasionally. She's still showing interested. Cut to the next scene. You're both alone. Together. Night you've been waiting for, and boy are you excited. But wait... no need to be too hasty. Just talk first. Show her that you're funny, sensitive, caring and good conversation. You talk. And talk. Things are going well, no? She seems to be enjoying herself. And you talk. You might flirt; get a bit of kino in. Before you know it, however, it's late. She's tired and wants to go to bed, and leaves you to make your own way home. You might kiss her, but perhaps she doesn't seem entirely responsive. Maybe you'll try another time. And suddenly she won't return your calls anymore. Between 12 and 72 hours she seems to have found herself a boyfriend. He might not be that good looking, but she seems to find him attractive. Six months later, they're still together.
What happened?
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Anon's Theory of Hormonal Fluctuation
True story. Happened to me twice. Third time it happened I successfully predicted it and avoided what would have inevitably have happened. When you were together she was thinking/feeling about having sex. You were flirting for some time and then you leave her unsatisfied. Even if she doesn't WANT to get with you, i.e. she is whoring you, then what you have done will still make her think about sex. Perhaps she rejected you or didn't try, but the thought - the process of meta-stating sex was still going through her mind. Chemicals were flowing. And this creates a need. This creation of a need to get some kind of action will naturally lead her to more readily accept the advances or even to PROVOKE advances of males with whom there was a greater ladder disparity.
Moral of the Story

Your first reaction to the story might be 'yeah, it looked like that might happen'. However, I can't stress enough how obvious this ISN'T when you're actually there doing this. The clock is ticking, but it's invisible to you. The temptation to think that you've got all the time in the world is as seductive as she is. Strike the iron while the fire is hot. Hit that shit. It's a lower risk to get rejected than to KNOW afterward that she was yours for the taking and that she's off the market now. Edit: thanks to Zeus for this one - if you can see this happenening then try and be the boyfriend. Your temporary increase on her ladder (along with every other male on the planet) might be just what you need to get a piece of that fine ass. Hell, you could probably use this Machiavellian tactic as your schtick.
All comments welcome. Send 'em to thelebowski@mail.ru.
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How Do I Avoid Becoming An Intellectual Whore? A question I often receive is 'Now that I know all this, how do I go about not becoming an Intellectual Whore?' I'm not going to lie to you; it's a difficult endeavor, but it can be achieved. It's much like astral projection in that way. I digress. We will consider two situations: avoiding intellectual whoredom, and extricating yourself from a relationship in which you have found yourself an intellectual whore. Of the two, avoiding whoredom is usually the easiest. It's a lot easier to avoid a barking dog than it is to pry his jaws off of your nuts after all. Of course, the major problem with an intellectual pimp is her lack of interest in your nuts, so perhaps that a less than perfect analogy. Moving onward. First, some techniques for avoidance of intellectual whoredom, then some techniques for avoidance of whoredom. Many of them will not make you look like a nice fellow, but at least you'll have your dignity. Note -- this will not tell you how to get women to have sex with you, it's not about seduction, it merely is about outlining some of the different styles guys use to know women they are not fucking and not be intellectual whores. None of these techniques will get you laid just by virtue of you employing them.
Techniques for the Avoidance of Whoredom: Shotokan - Shotokan stylists prefer hard direct derailment of any ideas about them as friends. It is a linear style, given to little wasting of time, and is often characterized as brutal. The techniques should be self-explanatory. Sample Shotokan techniques: 1st Dan: "Um, you, ah, know that I find you attractive right? So it's not likely we can really be friends." 5th Dan: "Friends? Well we can pretend if you want. But I find you way too attractive to ever be your friend." 9th Dan: "Did you just call me friend? Fuck that, we're not friends...didn't you know I wanted to fuck you ever since we met? What are you, simple? NEXT!"
Jiu-Jitsu - The jiu-jitsu stylist uses the momentum of his potential intellectual pimp against her, always 'flowing with the go' and waiting for an opening to strike. As long as the jiu-jitsu stylist is comfortable with his position, he sees no need to end a fight quickly. A subtle art, the jiu-jitsu artist must make himself like water. It is often difficult to tell if a jiu-jitsu stylist is winning or losing.
How Do I Avoid Becoming An Intellectual Whore? A question I often receive is 'Now that I know all this, how do I go about not becoming an Intellectual Whore?' I'm not going to lie to you; it's a difficult endeavor, but it can be achieved. It's much like astral projection in that way. I digress. We will consider two situations: avoiding intellectual whoredom, and extricating yourself from a relationship in which you have found yourself an intellectual whore. Of the two, avoiding whoredom is usually the easiest. It's a lot easier to avoid a barking dog than it is to pry his jaws off of your nuts after all. Of course, the major problem with an intellectual pimp is her lack of interest in your nuts, so perhaps that a less than perfect analogy. Moving onward. First, some techniques for avoidance of intellectual whoredom, then some techniques for avoidance of whoredom. Many of them will not make you look like a nice fellow, but at least you'll have your dignity. Note -- this will not tell you how to get women to have sex with you, it's not about seduction, it merely is about outlining some of the different styles guys use to know women they are not fucking and not be intellectual whores. None of these techniques will get you laid just by virtue of you employing them.
Techniques for the Avoidance of Whoredom: Shotokan - Shotokan stylists prefer hard direct derailment of any ideas about them as friends. It is a linear style, given to little wasting of time, and is often characterized as brutal. The techniques should be self-explanatory. Sample Shotokan techniques: 1st Dan: "Um, you, ah, know that I find you attractive right? So it's not likely we can really be friends." 5th Dan: "Friends? Well we can pretend if you want. But I find you way too attractive to ever be your friend." 9th Dan: "Did you just call me friend? Fuck that, we're not friends...didn't you know I wanted to fuck you ever since we met? What are you, simple? NEXT!"
Jiu-Jitsu - The jiu-jitsu stylist uses the momentum of his potential intellectual pimp against her, always 'flowing with the go' and waiting for an opening to strike. As long as the jiu-jitsu stylist is comfortable with his position, he sees no need to end a fight quickly. A subtle art, the jiu-jitsu artist must make himself like water. It is often difficult to tell if a jiu-jitsu stylist is winning or losing.
The most difficult thing to master in jiu-jitsu is the delicate balance of power in the relationship. At any time if you are putting in an equal amount or more of: money, time, emotion or fuel then you need to bridge, reverse and work for a better position. The jiujitsu stylist recognizes that conflict may be protracted, and is interested in position. 1st Dan: "Of course we're friends, that kiss was a mistake. We definitely shouldn't do that anymore. That Ladder Theory stuff is all just the crap ramblings of a deluded sociopath. Since we're such good friends, can I borrow some laundry money?" 5th Dan: "No no no, of course he's an asshole. He didn't deserve you anyway. Listen, let's go dancing next weekend, I'll take you out. Then we'll go back to my place and, uh, watch movies and drink wine...yes, yes that was a mistake. I feel as though I've taken advantage of you...I'm a terrible person. I understand if you never want to talk to me again...what, you do? Okay, well then how about you come over and we'll uh, listen to music and drink wine." 9th Dan: "Listen, I just want to say I feel terrible about what happened at your apartment after your parents funeral. I mean, not that we did anything wrong, per se, but I understand it was a moment of weakness, and we shouldn't speak of it again...Oh, you think it could be the beginning of something more? Well I guess I should tell you then, that I also feel terrible about what happened between me and your sister at the funeral...she is over the age of consent right? I mean, not that we did anything wrong, per se, but I don't want it to be weird for you, that, you know...hello?"
Tae Kwon Do - The Tae Kwon Do stylist does not how to do things small. He doesn't know how to bide his time well, and usually lays a huge emotional display of affection on a woman at first opportunity. If it doesn't work out he'll fall pathetically on his ass, and everyone will wonder why he tries such complicated maneuvers. When he succeeds however, the woman will be bragging to her friends about his acrobatic skill and finesse. A Tae Kwon Do stylist is to women as Mike Caro is to poker -- a little crazy, and not afraid to go all in for all his chips with nothing but rags. They're also frequently megalomaniacs. The important part of Tae Kwon Do is to make your attack so extravagant that a woman cannot but feel awkward around you if you fail. Otherwise you are setting yourself up for her wanting to stay in your life. This is not ideal. A true Tae Kwon Do stylist will not opt for a simple side kick when a double jump front kick could be used instead. 1st Dan: Techniques include the dinner and movie and date followed by the first date kiss attempt. 5th Dan: Techniques include the weekend getaway with a woman who might not be into you, and failing to mention you've only reserved one bed. Whether or not assumption is correct will be up to the skill of the student.
9th Dan: Techniques include driving over 500 miles on the chance of ass, flying across any Ocean, declarations of love before the 3rd date, and any date involving taking a helicopter somewhere.
Aikido - This is the way of defensive posturing. The Aikido stylist never makes an aggressive a move of any kind. He instead concentrates on using the woman's natural momentum against her. He is much like the Jiu-Jitsu stylist in a sense, but instead of reversing for monetary gain, he uses the Intellectual Pimp's tactics against her until she runs away from her own momentum. 1st Dan - "Oh, you're having a problem with Rocco again? You can do much better, as smart and talented as you are. So listen, I was talking to Jenna and she laughed when I was doing my 'Richard Gere with a hamster in his ass' impression. Do you think that means she likes me?" 5th Dan - "I know, I know, I told you that bitch was crazy. She's totally trying to destroy you. So...did you read the assignment for Tuesday? I totally didn't have time, and I've got some important things to do tonight. Can you possibly photocopy your answers for me, and, since you have neater handwriting, can you make me some crib notes for the test? Did I mention that you're like a sister to me?" 9th Dan - "Huh? Oh, uh, yeah, that sucks. Hey listen, I think I have a good chance of scoring with this girl...I know you're studying but can you get dressed and come out to the club with me so she can see I'm with someone. If we hook up, you can drive yourself back...Oh but I'll need you to come pick me up tomorrow also...I'd do it for you..that time doesn't count, I couldn't come get you because I was having a very unbalanced day emotionally, and I was low on gas. By the way, I really want to impress this girl, can I borrow some money to buy her drinks?"
Ninjutsu - This technique was unknown to until I saw it used very effectively by a roommate. It is simple, but hard to master. The basic idea is to just not do anything. Whenever anyone asks you to go anywhere or do anything, just refuse, and give an excuse that insinuates that they're not very interesting. 1st Dan - "No, I can't go to the bar with you guys. I've got some sleep to catch up on." 5th Dan - "Sorry, I can't do lunch. I'm trying to finish this book I've been reading. It's not that great, I just want to get it over with though." 10th Dan - "Can't talk on the phone now, there is a good Law and Order rerun on. Talk to you later, bye." Some Techniques for Extricating Yourself from Whoredom
I'm going to try to keep this short, since the ways are difficult and usually come down to a few techniques, which I would have thought would all have been covered by common sense. Silly me. The Homer: Become so crude, moronic, and uninteresting that the intellectual pimp loses all desire to keep you around. This will usually only work if you don't have a lot of common friends or acquaintances. The Jump: Make a ladder jump. Successful or not, you should no longer be her IW. The Cooper: Move out of town. Change your email and cell phone number. Don't tell her you are going to do so. Just disappear out of her life as quickly as possible. The Shamrock: Take steroids or something to get ripped or otherwise make yourself look better so she wants to fuck you. The Kennedy: Inherit a bunch of money so she wants to fuck you. The Vedder: get hooked on heroin or become an incorrigible drunk, so you are more trouble than you are worth. Note: this might backfire, and get you a mother figure. It is equally likely to get you an unintentional ladder jump. Could be hazardous to your health, or just really fun. Use at your own discretion.
What NOT to do: a Case Study I'm pretty sure you're done. You might have a 5% chance with this girl. This is why you build up your Hopper to make sure you have 3-4 prospects in there at any given time. Here's my analysis.
YuckFou wrote:
1 I 'know' her since Monday may 8th. She told me she had a boyfriend but i totally ignored that message.
She told you she had a BF because most girls will do that as a fair warning. That means she has half a brain. Your response to ignore it was proper. YuckFou wrote: Well, she asked my IP for my phone number and has been texting me like crazy. Last Friday (doomsday, see underlined text at start) i played her that much she actually wanted to come to the party with me and my IP. Not such a good idea. She called me and i said there would be plenty of occasions to see each other in the future. She texted me to ask if i was mad at her. I didn't reply for two days. Then texted some nonsense like: "My weekend was tough, too much beer. Need a week to recover. Yours was shitty?" She immediately replied and played along.
This was fine. She's showing signs of interest by seeking you out, HOWEVER, you need to keep in mind that since she already told you she had a BF and you didn't run away, some women think this is a sign that you want a, "friendship," with her. Nice work w/ joking about the weekend.
YuckFou wrote: 2 Yesterday i was an absolute asshole to her. She got more and more mellow. Less trying to tease me...
The point is NOT to be an asshole to her. The point is to be aloof and somewhat busy/unavailable, but when you ARE with her, you're this cool, laid back, funny guy who she always has a great time with. Avoid heavy conversations about big life problems, etc. See how you shut her down and she stopped teasing you? Not good. YuckFou wrote: After the conversation i called her ( it was 2 am -_- ) and asked if she wanted to go on a date. She said: "Yes....yes!.. but, i have no money" Me: "Doesn't matter, i have money. So what do you say, coming Thursday?" She: "Ehm, that's a little fast." Me: "Hmm kay." She: "But next week will be good." Me: "OK, nice, we have a deal then. Goodnight."
I never ASK for, "dates." They sound too formal. Instead, I always say, "We should hang out." I'm TELLING her we're doing something informal & relaxed and it isn't a big production. Some IWs make a big deal of asking for a date b/c they want to be VERY CLEAR that it is a date b/c they've been whored so frequently in the past. As long as you know what to do to avoid Whore-dom, then "hanging out" shouldn't be a big deal. "But I have no money." Warning flag #1. Your response? Even WORSE. You should not be her walking ATM machine. Your response should have been to reverse it and been funny. Say, "Well that's too bad. Now I won't be able to put-out for you. I only put-out for dates that buy me dinner." You would have flipped the script and immediately sexualized the situation. Then you should have laughed and suggested something free, like a park concert or watching an NBA playoff game at home. "Ehm, that's a little fast." Warning flag #2. If she was really into you, she wouldn't care if the date were to happen 10 minutes from now. She's scrambling to avoid the date. Yes, she gave you a counter-offer for next week. But it was vague and very unenthusiastic. But it at least bought her time to figure out how she's going to get out of this jam she got herself into. YuckFou wrote:
3 .... ........ Day after:
She: alright, I'd like to go out with you sometime, but i just broke up with my boyfriend whom i had a 3 year relationship with. so I'm not really jumpy for a new boyfriend. for your information. Me:hmm, OK She:I've always had a BF so I'd like to be single for a while
Previously she told you she had a BF so you wouldn't start going after her. Now she says she's broken up w/ her BF and wants to be single. Looks like the stalling-technique worked. It gave her time to come up with this gentile KoD. But it's interesting. She says she wants to be single, but says in the SAME breath after telling you that she's basically needy and always has a boyfriend. But suddenly when she's single and you're available, she's interested in having the sex-life of a monk. Interesting--AND warning flag #3. Your answer mediocre at best. At this point you should have flipped the script again, and said, "Who said anything about me being a BF?," or, "Oh good, I don't really want a girlfriend now either. I just want to keep it casual." Now, typically that's a bold move and most guys would worry that it would place them into the, "friend ladder." But basically by her saying she doesn't WANT a BF, you're half way there anyway. Reversing it is kinda like going for the gusto---either you're going to have a fuckbuddy relationship with her now, as she tries to, "convince," you to take her as a GF, or you've just re-confirmed your, "friends ladder," status. YuckFou wrote:
Me:i understand, but be aware that we cannot be friends She:haha, why Me:you're too interesting She:haha, OK, but you don't even know me, maybe I'm not nice at all hahaha Me:sometimes you are not nice at all, indeed haha Me: gotta grab some dinner, bye! She: hmm, k?
NEVER explicitly tell this to girls. It KILLS the drama. The whole point of a NEXTing is to simply dissapear/stop hanging out w/ her until she changes her tune. Don't tell her WHY. Make her scramble to re-gain your attention, but turn up the heat so that she has to basically make out w/ you/have sex w/ you for you to pay attention to her. Then you compliment her. BAD IDEA. Don't get me wrong--giving a girl a GENUINE compliment rarely is VERY GOOD. But it should to be as a reward after she did something you approve of. In this situation, you're giving her a compliment way too early for the purpose of trying to win her over/change her mind. You are attempting to trade status (pumping her up w/ a compliment) in order to receive approval/validation. This
NEVER WORKS. Trading status for validation sounds like it would work as a fair-trade. But that is the logical part of the brain speaking. Attraction is not logical--it is the emotion based reptilian brain. Offering a logical swap to appeal to the reptilian brain NEVER works. Complimenting and doing things for approval is the classic IW mistake. They THINK they're being all noble by, "being nice," but really it's just a passive-agressive way to try to guilt-trip the girl into liking them. It's disingenuous, and women can smell that from a mile away. Notice how she IMMEDIATELY called you out on it in the next sentence. THEN you try to scramble to take-back the compliment. You're trying to do damage control, but instead you are only COMPOUNDING the problem. Why is this? Well, the reason why you took back the compliment is becasue she called you out on it. When she called you out, it created tension in the relationship. IWs fear tension and arguments in the relationship because they are worried that they will makd the girl, "angry," and that the girl will leave them. So, whenever SHE brings up minor conflict/disagreement/tension in the relationship, the guy scrambles to change his mind so that he is in agreement with hers. So you just really compounded the problem by taking back your words. You would have been better off either standing your ground or moving past the topic. Eventually you got off the topic and abruptly left, but not in an angry or pissed way. That was good. YuckFou wrote:
4 At nighttime she texted me: My sandwiches are still frozen, so I'm still hungry. Maybe I need to get a job so i can afford some decent food, haha. I replied: The vibrating feeling in my pants scared the shit out of me! She replied: I suppose i better ignore that message. Wink Me: It was pretty nice actually. She: So are sandwiches. I sent noting back...
The comment about the vibrating in your pants was good. It established you as a sexual person again. Notice how she flirts back. But then she changes topic very randomly. This is a shit-test. At this point, I would have made some crack about salami sandwiches, but being silent was fine too. YuckFou wrote: She: Haha, you don't have a smart answer to that one, do you
This is making it clear she wants to continue with the shit-test. At this point I would have frozen her out completely for a day or two, or at the very least texted her back, "I'm busy right now, ttyl." or something like that. YuckFou wrote: I waited another hour, then sent: I't hard to think of a good answer, let me think for a while.
Really, really bad. You failed the shit-test. Before, when you just didn't send anything back, you could have played it off as if you were just too busy or you were annoyed. But now you've EXPLICITLY acknowledged that you were in a battle-of-wits with her and she just totally pwned you. If there is a poster-boy for the OPPOSITE of quick-witted banter, you are it. YuckFou wrote: She waited an hour, then sent: Well, probably thinking of thinking is too much effort for you today, if you understand what I'm saying I didn't reply and after 15 mins she wrote: Good night
Since you failed the shit-test, she becomes emboldened even MORE. The only way that isn't to be interpreted to be another shit-test is if there was some huge drama that happened that day that you told her about--did you cry to her about your IP and not tell us about it? That isn't good. Either way, she becomes more suspicious and starts testing you even harder--basically completely bitch-slapping you and disrespecting you blatantly to see if you'd stand up for yourself. Instead, you text back: YuckFou wrote: I replied: Sweet dreams
So, how am i doing?
Dude, you probably couldn't have fucked that up more if you tried.
The Window Corollary This post is long but fairly straight-forward. Most veterans will not learn anything new, but it should be very useful for newbies. The Ladder Theory is highly accurate. However, a woman decides almost INSTANTLY whether you are on her good ladder or her friends ladder. But being on the good ladder, or even high up on the good ladder, is not good enough. To seal the deal with a woman, you must: 1) Get on the good ladder. 2) Climb through her window at the appropriate time.
Unfortunately an open window is almost ALWAYS communicated non-verbally, and trying to figure out if/when the window is open is what 30% of the posts on this discussion board are about. The picutre below is of the good ladder. Imagine you are on the good ladder, but the hole the ladder goes through has a glass window covering it. Even if you are on the good ladder, you must climb higher to commence fucking ONLY when the window is open. If you try to climb too soon or too late, you smash your head and face into glass, get all bloody and shit, and likely fall off the ladder into the Abyss. Or even worse yet, over to the friends ladder. If you insist on continuing through a closed window, that is called rape, you sicko. You will likely end up in prison where you belong, and will be getting plenty of action, but not from people resembling anything like Kiera Knightly or the Olsen twins. Be careful because the friends ladder can sometimes have a similar looking window, but unfortunately, it only leads to cuddle-bitchdom (see below). Average guys do not realize this, so that's what the other 50% of posts on this discussion are about. The remaining 20% of posts are just random fun b.s. among friends and alpha-male posturing by people who only have the balls to do it from the safety of their dorm rooms or apartments.
The crucial open widow period starts and ends with two time points: 1) It OPENS as soon as enough time has passed so that if you hook up with her, she won't feel like a total slut (or she figures out you're not an axe-murderer). This is where alcohol can come in handy. 2) It CLOSES when too much time has passed without you making a move, thereby giving her the impression that you are a "nice guy," a supplicating bitch, an asexual
clueless loser, etc.. When women say they like a guy, "who has confidence," or, "who takes initiative," they mean they like guys who can go through her open window with great skill (smooth & quick, with no stumbling through it, etc.). "Getting lucky," is code word for a guy aaccidently climbing through an open window without realizing it. If you aren't perceptive enough to pick up on her signals to get through the window, you probably aren't perceptive enough to give her what she wants in bed or in a relationship. It takes all the fun out of it for them when they have to constantly ASK for it instead of having it given to them. I know this is illogical, but this is how women think. I don't make the rules...I'm just writing them down so the average guy can know what he's dealing with. The window can also close prematurely if there is another guy on her good ladder who successfully climbs through his open window before you climb through your open window. Depending on the woman, this can even happen if you are higher on the good ladder than he is. In this scenario, the woman has basically opened 2 or 3 windows at once, and told herself that whoever is the 1st one to climb through is the winner, regardless of relative placement on the ladder. This is most common when a woman that has a low self esteem, is particularly horny, or is drunk. Otherwise, most women will keep multiple guys on the good ladder, but only allow one window to open at a time, starting with the highest guy on the ladder and working her way down until somebody has the balls to climb though their open window. A woman who pretends to have 2 or 3 windows open at once but really doesn't is an attention whore. The open and closing times can differ radically, depending on the woman depending on the particular guy. If you have a large ladder disparity in your favor, the window will open sooner, and the window will remain open for a longer period of time. Essentially, she's secretly rooting for you and wants to give you every chance to succeed. Don't dissapoint her. If you have a prudish, shy girl, or possibly one already in a relationship, the window will be slow to open. If the girl is fickle or in high demand, the window will open and shut very rapidly. Generally, the hotter the woman, the more difficult it is to climb through her window. This is why many average guys don't even TRY to shoot for the super-hot women. They just assume they're not on the good ladder, or they don't think they have the skills to climb through an incredibly difficult window even in the rare event that they ARE on the good ladder. This is also why it's less satisfying when you seal the deal with a woman who was all over you, even if she was hot. In the back of your mind, you're thinking to yourself, "That window was way too easy to climb through, given how hot she is. There's probably something wrong with her." Some women intrinsically know this, and try to use it to their advantage. Often times, they are very average looking women who purposefully give the impression that their window is difficult to climb through. They think that by presenting difficult windows (i.e. being a bitch, being flaky, playing hard to get, being high maintenance, etc.), it will somehow fool guys into thinking that she is hotter than she really is. This phenomenon is
most common when there is little competition from other average or good-looking women, such as rural towns, engineering colleges, top ranked law & medical schools, and military bases. She is relying on our male competitive instinct and is playing the guys off of each other so she can get an unnaturally high quality dude. Do not fall for this ploy. It is better to look for women elsewhere than to settle for that level of bitchiness in somebody who isnt that hot anyways. Most guys fall into IWdom because they fool themselves into thinking they are on the good ladder, and the window just hasn't opened yet. In reality, they were either always on the friends ladder, or they missed their window opportunity, and have been relegated to the friends ladder. Some women try to intentionally disguise the "false window" on the friends ladder (that leads only to cuddlebitchdom) to look like the real window on the good ladder. This is a classic ninja bitch at work. Therefore, the difference between an attention whore and an ninja bitch is WHERE they work their treachery. The IP intentionally fools a guy into thinking he's on the good ladder when he's not. An attention whore intentionally fools a guy into thinking the window is open when it's not. So basically, there are three ways you can improve your game. 1) Improve yourself physically and money/power wise This will get you put on the good ladder of more women. This will also have the indirect effect of creating larger ladder disparities for with women who would put you on their good ladder normally. This means that some women will keep their windows open for a longer period of time, making them easier to climb through. 2) Improve your skills of perception so you KNOW when windows are open to you. Here, you avoid making an ass or yourself trying to smash through a permanently shut window (friends ladder), or trying to smash through too early or late. Sometimes if you try to go through the window prematurely you'll get a 2nd chance. This is why you want to ask a girl out in a way that can save face for a 2nd attempt. Success is rare, but it can happen. However, once a window is shut after it was open for a little while, it rarely reopens. So even being aware that a window has open and shut will help you move on, thereby avoiding being an IW. Hence, the NEXTING advice you see all over this forum. 3) Improve your confidence so that when you DO see a window that is open, you don't FREEZE. Here, you take those extra ladder steps up through the open window, into the triumphant moment of actually sealing-the-deal within the proper timeframe that was given to you by the woman. Assuming you're not a nerdy Jabba The Hut on welfare, I suggest focusing more on categories #2 and#3. This is because you aren't trying to change the minds of women.
You're just getting better at recognizing and capitalizing on women who already have you on their good ladder. Regardless, you need to find out which of the 3 categories you're weakest in, and work on it. Then pick the next weakest category and improve that. Repeat as necessary. Alot of being a "player" has mostly to do with superior perception (area #s 2 and 3). Often times, when you think some player pulled out a miracle, it's just that he was perceptive enough to SEE that a window was open in the first place. How many times have you gotten the, "Oh, I used to have such a crush on you like, 3 years ago...." and you got pissed because you never knew it? This rarely happens to guys who've got game. A player not only knows WHEN a window was open, but also HAS THE BALLS to actually go through it. This is because he is confident in his perception that the window is indeed open, even if it was open just for a brief period of time. You see this on weekend ski trips, spring breaks, etc., when you go with a group of friends but never hook up with women who you encounter because the nice guy in you didnt feel right about hooking up with a chick you just met. Do not fool yourself, you didnt refrain from hooking up because of some moral feelings she might have. If she had problems with hooking up right away, she wouldnt have opened her window for you. What really happened instead is that you chickened out and froze when you saw that the window was open to you. This never happens with a guy who has game.
In the case of Outlaw Bikers, they just don't CARE if a window is open or not because they are used to the pain of glass shards. Because they are OB's they get put on alot of good ladders, but they aren't slick enough to even be aware of the window that is in front of them. They just smash their head into glass windows all the time and if it doesn't work, they move on. Since they do it often enough, they (more frequently than the average guy) "get lucky" that a window just happens to be open for them when they clumsily try to climb through every woman's window in sight.
Billydee Ne plus ultra
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 Posts: 2335 Location: Chicago, IL Posted:Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:09 pm date : may 11th 2006 The Hopper Method I described this concept awhile back, but I think it got lost when the archives crashed a few months ago. For some guys, this is an obvious concept, but for newbies, it can be very useful to think of it the way I present it here. For the concept I'm about to describe, it helps to have one of three pictures in your mind below. I'm going to use the 2nd one in my description, simply because the metaphor/analogy is more apt. But all three get a simple concept through very easily--at any given time, you should be dealing with more than ONE potential woman.
One characteristic I notice many IWs have is the tendancy to get oneitis with almost EVERY girl they have interest in. This clearly comess from a lack of self confidence. Specifically, the concern that they will not be able to land a girl of that or better quality again for a VERY long time. Thus, the willingness to bend-over backwards to make this one particular girl like them, being willing to put up with TONS of shit & shit-tests she throws their way, etc. Generally, supplicating & constantly trying to get validation from the one girl because he silently fears it's his only chance. Many guys who fall into this category are also self-deluding. Instead of recognizing the truth (as stated above), they rationalize and tell themselves that they are, "honerable," and, "classy," because they do not, "cheat on," their girl with other women. They pride themselves on not being total garbage dicks & horndogs. In their mind, it is an either/or proposition--either you are a, "good guy," who ONLY dates one woman at a time until they flame out OR you are total player/horndog who never has a girlfriend but is fucking women constantly. Nothing could be further from the truth. And thus, I give you, "The Hopper Method."
The Hopper Method is a way in which to live in both the world of the, "player," and in the world of the, "normal/boyfriend type guy." The general concept is that you want be CONSTANTLY keeping an eye out for cute women to flirt with. Most of the time, you'll only see them once passing in the street, but practicing flirting never hurt anybody. Occasionally though, you will run into somebody that might be a repeat customer--they're in class, in your apartment building, at your local coffee shop, whatever. Now, imagine you are the fly fisherman in the above image. Why a fisherman, you ask? A few reasons. First, just like a fisherman looking for a specific type of fish, as a guy looking for a specific type of woman, you must do certain things to catch her. You do not go to a river or fresh water lake to catch marlin. You do not go deep sea fishing to catch rainbow trout. You need the right bait, lure, etc. as well. So, keep this in mind when looking for certain types of women--what kind of clubs/bars/coffeehouses would THEY hang out at? What kind of guy do THEY go for? Are you dressing the part? Going to the gym? Have the confidence they are looking for? Assuming you have the right bait & lure and are fishing in the right parts of town to get your catch, let's move on... If you look closely at the picture, the fisherman has a basket, which I call, "The Hopper." This basket represents YOUR social capacity to juggle a certain number of women. Some guys can only handle 2-3 at a time. Others are social butterflys and can handle 10-20. The point is, that number is FINITE, but it is MORE THAN ONE. As you go through your week and encounter a girl, strike up a conversation & start flirting, etc. If you see her frequently, there's no need to get her number--just flirt. If you're in a one-time-only situation, get her number. At this point, you have, "put her in your hopper." Early on, IT DOES NOT MATTER HOW HOT SHE IS. Just as early in the day when a fisherman's basket is empty, your hopper is empty right now--just get SOME fish into it. As stated before, your hopper has some type of capacity--for me, it's about 4-5 women before I start losing track. So, just like a fisherman who can only hold 4-5 fish in HIS basket, his goal is to constantly have is basket FULL but ALSO constantly improving the quality of the fish. Once the basket is full in the morning, in the afternoon, each time another fish is caught, a decision must be made--"Is this fish bigger than any one in the hopper? If no, throw it back. If yes, then take the worst fish in the hopper, throw IT back, and place the new fish in the hopper." In this way, you are constantly improving the quality of the 4-5 fish in the hopper. Now, extend the metaphor to women. At any given time, you should actively working on 4-5 women--although they may be in various stages. Maybe one you're already hooking up with and trying to decide if you want a FWB or a GF out of her. Maybe two you're in the setting-up a date phase. Maybe two you've just met that week & have started flirting, etc. The point is, you ALWAYS have other options. And, assuming you are meeting new women faster than you are fucking it up with any woman currently in your hopper, you are ALWAYS slowly-but-surely trying to improve the overall quality of the 4-5 women in your hopper. The important thing is to BE HONEST when dealing with these women.
It's unrealistic for them to expect you to be totally faithful when you've only gone on a few dates with them. Don't broadcast that you have a hopper, but if they ask, don't hide that you're dating other women either. It promotes comnpetition. The beauty of this method is that it is fluid. If you want to just date around & get a bunch of FWB & booty calls, just keep The Hopper in full operation constantly. If you want to shop for a girlfriend, just use The Hopper as the screening mechanism, then promote one girl to GF status and reduce the activity of The Hopper to just flirting innocently. The Hopper Method is useful for many reasons: 1) It gives you practice and a chance to experiment in all phases of meeting & dating women. 2) It gives you a method of comparison--otherwise, how would you know if one girl is being a bitch & unreasonable if you have nobody to compare it to? 3) It reduces pressure to make any ONE particular girl work out, because you are secure in your knowledge that you have others in the pipeline. 4) The knowledge of #3 decreases the likelyhood that you will get oneitis and tense up too much over one particular girl. 5) It keeps you busy so you don't smother any one particular girl. Just like the guy spinning plates in the above photo, you need to keep busy to give each plate a little spin, then move to the next one. By the time you're done w/ the line of plates, it's time to go back to the first one and spin it again. 6) It will give you the confidence to call bullshit when you see it & stand up for yourself, because you always know you have several, "fallback," positions. 7) It provides an excellent way to search for AND KEEP a girlfriend. You just keep filling up your hopper with prospectives until one REALLY catches your eye AND she is cooperative & non-bitchy. Then you can put your hopper on hiatus while dating the new GF. Just reduce the degree to which you are flirting with the other girls, but NEVER completely shut them down. Just do some flirting, etc. This reminds the GF that other women find you attractive (even if you aren't dating them). Also, if it doesn't work with the GF, it's easier to just ramp-up the hopper again & fill it back up & start the process all over again.
The Forbidden Techniques
Flame Banged Virginia and Her Mom
Joined: 12 Oct 2005 Posts: 845 Location: NYC or Ann Arbor, MI PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 3:15 am Post subject: Rusulki wrote: Reply with quote
Back on topic though, there's plenty of ass in the world, and much of it isn't already claimed by someone. Go after that.
See. I'm opposed to the idea that "ass" can be claimed as someone else's property. If I enter into an exclusive relationship with someone, then I hope I'd stick to it... but only because I WANT to, not because of social conventions or what is "expected" of a gf/bf relationship. Regarding the OP: Just fucking PLAY with that age difference. First off, never forget the first rule of dealing with girls with bfs (older, younger, whatever, any kind of bf) -> he doesn't matter until SHE brings it up. Even then, he doesn't matter unless she brings it up as a DIRECT counter to your advances. So if you guys are talking about something, and she mentions him in a story or something, he DOES NOT MATTER. However, if you say something/do something, and this CAUSES her to respond, "No, I have a bf..." THEN you have to deal with it. But it's definitely not as dramatic as it sounds. All you gotta do is fucking make him out to be the most beta, IWish, insecure, boring, pathetic dude in the world... INDIRECTLY. So, if a girl brings up her bf, I'll just be like "Oh wow, you have a bf? Lucky. He sounds like a great dude... I bet he buys you flowers and treats you like a princess..." "He doesn't? Well, you know, it's not really his fault... I mean, you both realize you're prolly the best gf he's ever had and he doesn't want to come off too needy and desperate... so he's prolly trying to play funny headgames and shit to keep you on your toes. Must get tiring sometimes..." Or, if he's TOO supplicative/nice/boring for her, you can just reframe that into "Wow... he does ALL THAT FOR YOU? Haha, damn... stay away from me and stick to him. I can already tell, I'm horrible bf material for you... I'd like... forget your bday, forget our
anniversary, never buy you flowers... and plus, I'd actually be good in bed. Haha sucks for you" OR "Yeah... wow, you're really lucky. You know, I bet this guy realizes you're the best gf he's ever had or ever will have, and now he's just so desperate to keep you in his life, even if it means sacrificing all this time and $... He's willing to just throw himself down before you, JUST to keep you around... I know I could never do that... you're really lucky." See how this works? With an older bf, it's EASIER, because you just play the older card. "Hahaha... yo, have as much fun with him asap, before the ED kicks in!" Or "Yeah, you know, I bet he doesn't party much with you or get wasted and have hot sex in crazy places...but you know, I bet he's a good guy with a solid job. Real good husband material. You should hold onto him." You are younger, you are fitter, you are more virile, and you are the man. Believe it. Disclaimer: I don't approve or disapprove of hitting on a girl who has a bf. All I write are tactics and tools. Use them as you will. You all are too old to be asking others to define your morals and your choices in life. _________________ "Falling in love is one of life's pleasures." - Juggler "I don't care how hot she is... Some guy, somewhere, right now, is fucking tired of her shit." - Philos
So You Want to Date a Stripper? by Greg A Bruns
So you got a stripper's phone number, huh? Called her up and chatted about this and that and had a nice little conversation with her, huh? What's her name? Cinnamon? Going out with her for lunch on Saturday, eh? Very Nice. Here are a few tips because dating a stripper is a hazardous affair and the only thing you're going to get out of this insane ride are bragging rights for the rest of your life. This article is based on information gleaned from my brief stay in Stripperville. First of all, you've got to have a destination in mind before you embark on this venture. What do you want from the Stripper? A few fun evenings out on the town with a little hottie on your arm? Sex? Free passes to the Titty Bar where you met her? Everlasting true love? Handjob? Look walking into this without a goal is certain means for failure, because she operates on her own terms and if you let her manipulate you and lead the show, you're sunk. She meets 50 guys a night who are potential dates, so she's just playing the odds with you. She's thinking she just might meet someone who can handle her, but no one can. Trust me. No one can handle her. You'll never change her or pull her out of Stripperville. Remember that and keep your eyes on the prize. Several points to consider: 1. You're not Special. You're one of 18 guys she's juggling right now, and one of a hundred who witness her naked glory every night. It's her job to make guys feel like they're the only one she's interested in. She gets paid handsomely for that skill. That sultry stare she's giving you across the dinner table with those piercing green eyes is the same look that forces 75 men-a-night to fumble for their wallets and jam fistfuls of green into her G-string even though they're six months behind on child support. 2. She makes more money than you. Get used to it. Keep in mind that she pulls down more than most corporate attorneys (who also represent a large portion of her clientele). She's ripping 2-5K a week tax-free, and you shouldn't expect her to pay for anything. It's not in her nature. Guys fawn all over her every single night and offer her stacks of crisp Benjamins in an effort to get their knobs slobbered on in the parking lot behind the club (something she'll claim she's never done, but the other girls at the club have right she's done it at least once). 3. If you get emotionally involved with this girl, you're in for a hurricane of pain. Your future with this chick: broken dates, shattered windows, holes punched in doors, a slew of ex-boyfriends and husbands, a thousand "friends" calling all the time, an
encyclopedia of restraining orders she has out on said exes and a couple customers who stalked her for six months. Her apartment is littered with soggy G-strings and cheap 8inch heeled shoes, along with empty tubes of body glitter, mascara, prescription drugs, zit cream, Aqua Net and Polaroid pictures of her and her "friends" engaged in some drinking and dancing on St. Patrick's Day last year. The Polaroid pictures of her and her stripper friends getting nasty for the entire bar are still circulating around town because one of the guys she dated last month stole them out of her nightstand when he sensed the end was near and he wasn't going to be getting any more Cinnamon Love. 3. She has more guy friends than you had all throughout high school and college, collectively. Sometimes they'll just drop in when you two are hanging out and you're thinking it might get romantic. The guy friend will ask her right in front of you if she wants to go to Happy Hour at the Knick Knack Paddy Whack Lounge and she'll look at you with bright eyes and say, "Yeah let's go to Happy Hour with Tim here it'll be fun!" And you, still gripping on to that glimmer of hope for some pussy, will say yes and you'll spend the next three hours in a simmering rage while you quaff watered-down Bud Light drafts, because she's the most popular girl in the bar and every person with a penis in there is looking to hop on the Stripper Wagon that is blazing through Stripperville at a very unsafe speed. All of those "guy friends" started out just like you, chief. They saw the Promised Titty Land and thought they could get there, too. Once they tired of the bullshit and drama, or she found someone else, they were relegated to "friends." They could've bought a fucking sailboat with all the money they blew on young Cinnamon, and now they hang on to some last vestige of hope, thinking that she may just get drunk enough some night and let them put their spit on the slit. You guys could all get together and swap the exact same stories about wasted nights, full-blown disappointment, and confused, desperate whackoff sessions when you all found out that dating a stripper is no different than trying to debate Nietzsche with a Dalmation. 4. Her life is a flurry of activity selected at random. This stimulates her sub-par self-esteem. At 10am she will be rocketing down the freeway at 130mph on the back of some guy's crotch rocket. By 1pm she's already at some different guy's house, swimming naked in the pool with him and his Great Dane named Robo. By 5pm she's doing "X" at some other guy's house, and from there she goes home for the five-minute shower and gets ready for work. 5. She'll blow you off for three dates in a row. When you keep calling, she knows she has you. That Saturday night dinner and special room you've secured at the fucking Ritz will be vaporized after she tells you she's going to Mexico with some of her "friends." Her whimsical trip to Mexico will forever after be known as Cabo Wabo Orgy 2002, and you'll likely come across some digital pix of her
fellating two guys on the beach in Cabo while you're scanning some amateur porn site on the Net. It's a crazy affair, for sure, but just remember these do's and don'ts and you'll be fine: DON'T ever call her and not announce your name. Her phone rings more than all of the lines at the New York Times combined. Don't put her in the precarious position of trying to guess your name. "Is it Steve? Rick? Mike? Dave? Javier? Justin? Michael? Chris? Matt? Juan? Adam? Alex? Roberto? Ed? Brian? Eugene? Tim?" She'll make it quite clear that she has many suitors, which excites her to no end, and puts you in a bottle of bourbon all alone by 9pm that night. Try to sound upbeat: "Hi Cinnamon, this is Greg, I was just walking through Tiffany's, looking at a $900 sterling-silver ashtray and thought of you." (She smokes. They all smoke. She'd gush over an ashtray from Tiffany's. Don't buy it, though. Make her think you would've bought it for her, if only there was a rose engraved on it.) DON'T ask her about her fucking tattoos unless you want to look like one of her customers. DON'T go see her at her job unless it's absolutely necessary. A necessity would be getting her condo key so you can go feed her cat. If you get to that point, FYI, you're now one of her "friends," and you can wrap up the sexual fantasies you have of her by beating off right on her pillow after you throw the cat some Meow Mix. DON'T try to keep up with her. Don't skip work to spend the day with her. She works nights and you work days. Keep your job. Her days are spent at tanning booths, Frederick's of Hollywood and chic outdoor cafs where her and her stripper "friends" eat poached salmon salads with dressing on the side. DO carry lots of hundreds in a money clip. Make sure she sees you strip off the bills when the dinner check comes. Or better yet, whip out the Corporate Amex and toss it on the table like you're folding a bad poker hand. Clasp your hands behind your head and lean back into your chair after you make the Amex toss, as if to say, "See that? Unlimited credit, baby." DO kiss her on the cheek when she shows up at your place for the nice dinner you're going to cook her, and knock her fishnets off with your ability to handle the cuisine and wine. At some early point in the evening though, you're going to have to find her cell phone in her purse and steal the battery out of it, because that thing will ring incessantly and she will eventually find something or someone better to do. Pull the battery or she's going to get some call at midnight, when you've got the Miles Davis playing lightly in the background, and the candles illuminating the room in a soft glow and you think you're about to "storm the beach." This call will undoubtedly be from one of her "friends" who is going to an after-hours party at some country bar and all of the sudden she'll squeal with delight and jot down the address on her hand and say to you, "Let's go TwoStepping at the Country Bunker with John and Kevin!"
DO remember this: strippers are more fucked up than The Who was during their 1973 U.K. "Quadrophenia" Tour. They're a bad lot to hang out with, because there's so much freedom and money in Stripperville. They've got it all and they don't need you or anyone else. All they need is their Xanax and Raspberry Stoli on the rocks and their job. Yeah the job. That's what fuels the lifestyle and you're never going to pry her from it. Don't even suggest it. If your goal from the aforementioned list is "sex," you need to understand that it's going to take at least five dates. At least. Figure $250 per date. Compound that and it's a nice little used Hobie Cat or a decent house payment. While that fine body, devoid of tan lines, might fuel you to the fifth date, I'd recommend looking into escort services in your area. With an escort, you're getting what you want right off the bat, and it'll likely cost you half of what Cinnamon is charging. Good luck in Stripperville. It'll be a short stay, but something you'll talk about for years to come.
situations with many men around a women
zeratum Auggo 2.0
Joined: 05 Mar 2004 Posts: 13275 Location: SRQ PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 2:48 am Post subject: Game Competition Reply with quote You know what I really hate, when I'm involved in a situation where it's me and one or more other guys talking to a girl (usually at a party) and it's obvious that all of the guys are running games. The girl isn't really favoring any one guy, she's kind of all playing them for attention. Usually I just get disgusted in these situations and walk away. I attribute this to my spoiled childhood, I'm used to getting what I want. Sometimes the girl will come find me (disinterest), but usually not. I'm curious how you guys play this situation or avoid it in the first place? _________________ "Nothing screams I'm important like screaming 'I'm important' into your cell phone" -Beer Commercial
buddix Ne plus ultra
Joined: 28 Dec 2004 Posts: 4153 Location: THE INTERNET Gimmick: Present PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 4:10 am Post subject: Reply with quote You mean when a bunch of guys are trying to talk to her? Well what you don't want to do is just try to be another guy talking to her. Those situations where there are a bunch of guys standing around one girl are the worst. You need to change the dynamic. If you are in the situation then start engaging the guys in conversation. I mean actually try to genuinely start a group conversation. The guys probably want to talk to the girl, but it puts them in a difficult situation. If they ignore you or act like a dick is pretty easy to get a little offended and make them look bad. If they engage in the conversation, well you initiated it and will probably guide it initially. Try to bring the other guys in the conversation, and then the girl too. Anyways see where it goes from there. At some point you might want to break off and talk to other people. If you did a good job then the girl will want to talk to you again later, so thats when you run your game.
When you go back, if there are still other guys around her, well hopefully you can read the situation well. If she seems most interested in you talk to her for a little and ask her to go to the balcony or beer keg with her or tell her you want to show her something or have her meet someone. Then take her to what you want to show her or who you want to meet, then that should be brief and then you've got her alone.
If you see a girl you want to approach surrounded by guys, work the party some first. Talk to other people, get to know whats going on. Then when you go up to her and the guys shes around you can introduce yourself to everyone etc, your intro speech. Then you can talk to her more directly and talk about whats going on at the party. Hopefully she will be interested and want to know whats on etc. If the other guys have just been standing around hitting on her then you have an advantage. _________________ sig was too big
Joined: 12 Oct 2005 Posts: 923 Location: NYC or Ann Arbor, MI PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 6:10 am Post subject: Reply with quote Be the exception. That's the only way you will ever get her out of auto-pilot response mode. It's cool to be like "yeah, she's not worth fighting other dudes for, whatever i'm out" but I dunno... it's also kinda weak to just back away every time there's some competition. If you truly UNDERSTAND and APPRECIATE your own worth, I think it would be much harder to just walk. The key is getting the girl to understand and appreciate your value without actively looking like you are trying to outdo all these other guys. There are a couple of different ways for doing this: 1) Engaging the girl on a totally different level from the other guys. A good basic example of this is how a smooth alpha will tease and joke around with and just totally knock a girl off her pedestal while she is surrounded by supplicative, dorky IW-type dudes. This differentiates him and generates attraction.
The problem with this is that in a large party or club or whatever, there are TONS of guys like this. THere are supplicative dudes, but there are also guys who are pretty alpha and are engaging the girl at the proper emotional level. 2) AMOGing... this is just straight-up owning the other dudes. There are a few different ways of doing this, and you can mix-match as the situation calls for it: a) Befriending then leading -> basically you just make the guys love you. You engage them first, you ignore the girl for the most part except the random teasing comment or whatever, but you focus on the dudes and befriend them. This can easily transition into leading them, because once they like you and you are feeding them bits of validation/approval, you can effectively lead them by controlling your approval and support of their actions. If that sounds complicated, basically you just have to be that cool party dude that all the guys think and talk about, the one they say is "fkin crazy, did you see him when he was xyzing, etc." Once you effectively hold the guys' attentions, the girl(s) will follow, cuz they are losing out on validation and will go where the validation seems to be. b) Tooling them -> Just straight-up TOOL them... you can just walk into set, start talking to the girl, and just block out the other dude with your body language. Like seriously, just power your voice over them and just turn your body so that they are blocked out. When guys try to butt in, just acknowledge and dismiss ("Haha, awesome. You're amazing, man" *backturn, block him out*) c) Work the party first -> If you get other girls into you, the other girls WILL notice you, even if they are getting tons of attention from other guys. They can't help it. If you are making a buncha girls laugh their asses off, and you got one on your arm, and you lean back to ask that one girl who's surrounded by tons of guys a question, she will EAGERLY respond. That group will BLOW open, because no matter how awesome those other guys are, they don't have other chicks all over them. These are just basic guidelines. You can do funny shit like bombarding the other dudes with logical questions and topics (sports, cars, school, careers) and they will just be answering and answering you, trying to prove they are knowledgeable and shit, when all they are doing is just letting the emotional state of the girl next to them die down. While you are engaging the guy on a logical level, you are free to tease and randomly entice the girl during breaks in your conversation with the guy. I don't know... maybe it's just me, but when I see a girl who is surrounded by guys and is getting tons of free validation, I feel a CHALLENGE. This is kinda fucked up, but I do believe that every guy should have at least the COURAGE, if not the SKILLS, to walk up and engage the girl he wants, no matter how many other guys are after her. ANd it'll help you appreciate her more. Just don't do it like all the other losers are doing it.
_________________ "Falling in love is one of life's pleasures." - Juggler "I don't care how hot she is... Some guy, somewhere, right now, is fucking tired of her shit." - Philos
Power
by :Kass Title :Cuddle Bitch Joined: 15 Aug 2005 Posts : 16 Date : 05 Oct 2005 Now this might be well understood or known already but seeing as there arent any recent posts on the topic i thought it usefull to lay down the subject and accumulate some of this forums ingenius thoughts, atleast for myself if not for anyone else. It has come to my attention that power is everything in a relationship... You can shape your relationship with someone however which way you want as long as you have the power or atleast the right degree of power. Upon realising this I have begun shaping my own relationships quite successfully. I convinced my past two gf's that it was perfectly okay for me to see other females whilst seeing them, an idea they initially proposed as "unnaceptable" Now this may be considered incredibly un ethical and perhaps even manipulative or very "female" of me BUT if your young like me and not interested in serious relationships and just male slutting yourself around its perfect... if not essential. Having a few gfs is time consuming and expensive. Convincing a few of them to just fuck you and not need to be your gf saves an amazing amount of time, money, effort. All of such things that can be used maximising your hunting results Now this power i speak of comes in different ways but primarily it comes from her wanting/needing you more then you want/need her. Many a time in my youth i believed that there would still need to be a compromise in any relationship... untill i decided not to compromise, with startling results. If your a young male slut or even an older male slut (A family friend of mine has many women that he sleeps with and they all know about eachother) You have the power to shape your relationships any which way you want in most cases and in the off cases you can atleast buy yourself a lot of concessions. When you hear a rejection like "i would never do that bla bla thats stupid bla bla" just nod your head and stop talking to her. Take your attention away slightly maybe even a bit of silent treatment, dont call her for a day for example and you will see how slowly slowly whatever you proposed is no longer such a bad idea. This ofcourse wont work if the balance of power is tipped in her favour. She will just axe you. But if the balance of power is in your favour she will convince herself on many occasions that whatever you say is probably right anyway. This works paticularly well if your dating somone younger If the balance of power is not tipped in your favour there are a number of ways of tipping the scales. 1. A healthy dose of ruining her self esteem
2. Always appearing your best especially if she isnt. 3. Introduce her to your gorgous female friends 4. Reject her plans everynow and then to hang out with your mates Those are the basic ones but there are many more. I dont encourage the first one Its not very classy and if you need to resort to it may be saying something about your lack of social skills HOWEVER- its not something i ever do UNLESS she is a complete bitch and i only want to fuck her so that i win. Anyone else know what i speak of? Feel free to add to anything i have missed or correct me if i have made an incorrect assumption. Bear in mind. Im 18
by :Themuz Title :Ne plus ultra Joined: 03 Jan 2005 Posts : 4111 Date : 05 Oct 2005 How To NEXT or... What To Do When You Want To Get Rid Of One-Itis Or An IP And You Don't Know What Else To Do by themuz, intellectual giant, and all around genius when it comes to women. Ok, I am not going to preach that every girl should be NEXTed when you get one-itis. I am not going to say you should NEXT every girl who uses you. I will leave the decisions on when to NEXT a girl up to you, or those giving you advice. But, let's go over what it takes to NEXT a girl properly, as well as the logic behind a good NEXTing. A NEXT, in its most basic form, is a way of getting over a girl. It is used so that you can get out of a bad situation when all other methods fail. If you NEXT a girl, you are not doing it to make both sides come to terms, or show her what she did wrong, or perhaps bring her around to you. You are not NEXTing her so you can strategically come into her life at a more opportune time. When you NEXT a girl, you are going to permanently (or as permanently as possible) remove yourself from her life. It is recognized that you cannot COMPLETELY remove yourself from anyone's life, mainly because we all inhabit the same planet, but you sure can do your damnedest to make sure things between you and the girl you are NEXTing stay in the past and you move on to your future. What you need to do to properly NEXT a girl is this: #1: Do NOT initiate contact in any way. I cannot stress this enough. #2: If she calls.. 2a: Say Hi, be polite or neutral. Say you are busy. Say you don't feel like talking. Say you are in the middle of a great date. Whatever. Just get off the phone ASAP in a polite manner. 2b: Do not end the phone conversation on a bad note, if possible. Don't be rude. There is no reason for this, no matter how bad she treated you, or whatever. 2c: If she suggests that you call her, tell her you will, but don't. Yeah, it's a lie. Who cares.
2d: Remove her number from your cell phone/little black book. Scribble that shit out with a Sharpie if that is what it takes. #3: If she stops by.. 3a: Tell her now is not a good time for hanging out/whatever she stopped by for. 3b: If she persists, tell her it REALLY is not a good time, and make an excuse. 3c: If she stopped by to get something from you, and you want to keep it, tell her you do not have it, or you are using it but will give it to her when you are done with it, which should be pretty soon. #4: If you have her email address, or screen names in IM programs, remove her from your lists of email addresses and IM screen names. Do it. I'm not joking, either. #5: If she for any reason messages you via email or instant message.. 5a: Ignore it, she doesn't know if you are actually at your computer or away from the keyboard. That is the glory of teh innerweb. 5b: Remove her from your list(s) if she has been added again from messaging you. #6: If you see her in person.. 6a: If it is just you and her alone.. 6aa: If you have to stay at the place, and she is with you, be polite or neutral. She will probably be staying, so let's not make a scene. 6ab: If she brings up how you guys don't talk any more, tell her you are a busy person. Lie if you have to. Tell her you'll get in touch with her when your life settles down naturally you won't. 6ac: If you don't have to stay at the place, and she shows no signs of leaving, tell her you are late for an appointment/date/colonoscopy/root canal, and leave. 6ad: If she says she'll come with, tell her she can't. Make up an excuse if you have to.
6b: If it is you and her around a group of friends (mutual or otherwise).. 6ba: Be polite. If you have to stay, keep talk at a minimum. Talk to your other friends. Talk to other people. Talk to her only if she initiates conversation, or the situation calls for it.
6bb: If you don't have to stay, be polite and leave. #7: If you work with her.. (Note: This is one of the more difficult situations for a weak IW. Some guys can handle being around former IPs, but others can't, and either way if she works with you you are going to have to, so it is best that you learn to deal with your former one-itis/IP if you work with her.) 7a: Keep things civil. You have to work with her, and your attitude reflects your performance and promotion at work. 7b: Learn to deal with the fact that she is no good for you, you guys are never going to be together, and you are the one that will have to be proactive to make sure you don't fall into the motions of being an IW. 7c: Do not supplicate. This should be a given, but sometimes it needs said again and again and again. This is one of those agains. 7d: If she starts conversation that you don't care to talk about, say you are too busy and be on your way. Or, if you work directly with her, start conversation about something else. Your grnadmother died, you bought a new car, some cousin's daughter's friend's motherin-law won the lottery. Whatever. It really is that simple. NEXTing is not a long, dramatic speech. Now, let us go over WHY it is not a long, dramatic speech.. Women crave attention and drama. Even if she is crying, she is loving the drama. I know this from experience. I am not hating on women - far from it. They are just emotional creatures, whereas men are more logical (usually) creatures. If you tell her off in the most hurtful manner possible, you are only feeding her need for drama. You are not helping your cause. You are trying to fade away, and possibly make her wonder, 'Why isn't he talking to me?' Believe it or not, her wondering will possibly bother her until the day she dies. If you tell her, 'You are a greedy ignorant slut who doesn't care how I feel,' she will gossip about you to your friends, or her friends, and get validation from them that no, she is not a greedy ignorant slut, and that themuz guy.. He's just jealous he isn't Tom, who is lucky to get unemployment and workers' compensation because he hurt his back fucking his boss on her office desk, as well as be with themuz's case of one-itis. Hopefully after this paragraph you see exactly why you do not make a NEXT a long, dramatic speech. Long, dramatic speech includes emotional away messages on IM programs or blogs.
You want to pull this off as clean as possible. You do not want to hurt your image with other girls. You do not want to hurt your image with your friends. This is a small world, and your case of one-itis, or whatever, will talk to others about how you spazzed out. Be a man, and just NEXT her cleanly.
\\comments by dlusion \\Do Not Block, delete but do not block, \\they will find out if you block them, and \\entitle them to knowledge of power
anon Wants Dallas Scorched From the Earth
Joined: 09 Mar 2003 Posts: 6087 That aside, it solves one argument (who pays?) and adds extra credence to my 'money doesn't buy you sex' theory. David DeAngelo wrote: HOW TO AVOID PAYING FOR DATES... One of the big questions that a LOT of guys ask me is: "Should I pay for dinner when I take a woman on a date?" Well, I'm going to answer the question in a "round about" way... But I'm going to give you an answer that you might not expect. And this particular answer is rather clever in its simplicity: DON'T GO OUT ON "TRADITIONAL DINNER DATES" ANYMORE. See, if you don't go out on "take her out to dinner" dates anymore, then you won't have to deal with paying for them. Profound, I know. Please, hold the applause. Let me explain this a little more. A lot of good research suggests that women think of men that are potential mate potential in one of two categories. I call these categories "Lover" and "Provider". If you've read my book "Double Your Dating" then you will recall that one of the three free bonus reports was dedicated to this topic. The basic idea goes like this: In a "traditional" boy-meets-girl situation, the
girl makes a decision early on whether you're the type of guy that she should get physically involved with quickly (spelled A-T-T-R-A-C-T-I-V-E) or if you're of the "nicer" type (spelled W-U-S-S-Y) that would be glad to "prove" yourself to her by paying for lots of expensive dates, buying flowers, etc. I realize that I'm generalizing here, and that I'm being a bit extreme... but I'm making a point, so go with me. A very common approach that men use is the old "Can I take you out sometime?" line. At first glance, it sounds innocent enough. It has the ring of "I'm a nice guy, and I'd like to take you to dinner so I have a chance to get to know you better" to it, right? Well, it may seem that way at first glance, but let's get a little deeper into what ELSE you're saying when you ask a question like this one (or start off by paying for dinner, etc.). Here are a few of the OTHER LESS OBVIOUS things that you're saying when you offer to "take a woman out". 1) You're starting off the relationship RIGHT FROM THE BEGINNING by offering to buy something for her, and, more importantly YOU'RE SETTING AN EXPECTATION. In other words, when you do this, you're setting an expectation that you're going to do this from NOW ON. 2) You're subtly saying "I feel like I need to use a bribe to get you to see me again". I'm sure that men have been bribing women with food and gifts since the dawn of our species. Does this sound far-fetched to you? Check out how our closest relatives, the chimps use food to persuade females to have sex with them. No, really. 3) Once you "take a woman out" and prove to her beyond the shadow of a doubt that like to pay for things, you set a whole series of other unconscious expectations in place. Without going into detail, most of these other expectations will only lead to her thinking of you in the "nice guy"
category, and costing you time and money that you might as well have thrown down a rat hole. 4) By going out to a typical nice restaurant setting, you start a whole chain of events that often leads to two people looking at each other over a candle, in a loud room full of other people, with a typical uncomfortable "OK, so tell me about yourself and don't ask me too many personal questions please" look on your faces. I don't know about you, but this just isn't my idea of a good time. So what's the alternative? Thought you'd never ask. Well, as I said earlier, the first thing you might consider doing is NOT ASKING WOMEN "OUT" ANYMORE. Instead, just say "Do you have email?" and if she does, hand her a pen and say "Great, write it down for me." Then, follow up by inviting her to join you for a cup of tea and some stimulating conversation. This "low key" approach doesn't set up the typical "date expectations", it takes a lot of the pressure off of the situation, it DRAMATICALLY lowers your chances of a woman saying "no" or "rejecting" you, and it doesn't give away your POWER to the woman. Asking a woman for her email address and number, but NOT asking her "out" is an amazing thing. You will not believe how easy it is to do, and how well it works. As I say often, go one step at a time, and don't try to "sell to far in advance". When you do, it just puts an unnatural pressure on the situation and usually makes the woman play "hard to get". Follow up after getting her email with something equally low-key and NON-DATE-REQUEST-ISH: "Hi, it was fun talking yesterday... I'm thinking that we should get together tomorrow for a cup of tea and some stimulating conversation. You seem like you might make a
nice friend." Then, if you're REALLY cheap, show up 5 minutes late so she buys her own tea and is waiting for you. You can even say "How inconsiderate of you... where's mine?" LOL... Here's the key: IF YOU WANT TO BE A MAN THAT SHE FEELS ATTRACTED TO, THEN QUIT ACTING LIKE ALL THE OTHER GUYS THAT TRY TO BUY HER ATTENTION WITH FOOD AND GIFTS. Use the techniques that you're learning from me to be Cocky & Funny, keep her laughing, and generally bust on her to increase the ATTRACTION level. If you buy a woman enough dinners, she MAY begin to feel some AFFECTION for you... but food and gifts will never lead to ATTRACTION. Big difference. And, of course, if you want to get all of my best thinking on what creates that magical thing called ATTRACTION inside of a woman, then you need to read my eBook "Double Your Dating"... just go to: http://www.doubleyourdating.com/ebook/ ...and download your copy now. It will not only explain this topic better, it will also teach you other great places to take women that don't cost money, how to take things to a "physical" level, and much more. Do it. If you've read my eBook and want to REALLY get a worldclass education about how to attract women, then I'd recommend you invest in my Advanced CD/DVD Series. You can watch and/or to me personally teach over 12 full hours of the most advanced concepts available anywhere in the world on meeting and dating women. Just go to: http://www.doubleyourdating.com/advancedseries ...for all the details. On that page you'll also find several samples from the program, so check them out.
I thought that I'd leave in the plug, since I am ripping off his material. sincerely, anon _________________ Back momentarily. \\Comment by Bean How I read it: 1) By explicitly asking for a date, you make sure you won't get stuck as a IW/CB. (This is true because either she says yes and you're on the good ladder, or she says no and you know it's time to move on.) 2) We should concentrate on how to get with chicks who are out of our league. (quick translation) \\Comment by Anon Bean wrote: 1) By explicitly asking for a date, you make sure you won't get stuck as a IW/CB. (This is true because either she says yes and you're on the good ladder, or she says no and you know it's time to move on.)
Not necessarily. She might be a professional dater. The reason why you shouldn't ask her out on a date is because it gives her all the power. It's now HER decision as to whether or not she likes YOU. She's interviewing you, essentially. This is bad for two reasons: 1) You're gonna have less power in her eyes (see pie chart). 2) You've made it clear where you stand and so you're less of mystery to her. Being on the good ladder has nothing to do with whether or not you are technically on a 'date' or not. Quote: 2) We should concentrate on how to get with chicks who are out of our league.
Change your behavior, attitude, etc. to make sure that these chicks are IN your league before you start focusing on them. sincerely, anon _________________ Back momentarily.
The most difficult thing to master in jiu-jitsu is the delicate balance of power in the relationship. At any time if you are putting in an equal amount or more of: money, time, emotion or fuel then you need to bridge, reverse and work for a better position. The jiujitsu stylist recognizes that conflict may be protracted, and is interested in position. 1st Dan: "Of course we're friends, that kiss was a mistake. We definitely shouldn't do that anymore. That Ladder Theory stuff is all just the crap ramblings of a deluded sociopath. Since we're such good friends, can I borrow some laundry money?" 5th Dan: "No no no, of course he's an asshole. He didn't deserve you anyway. Listen, let's go dancing next weekend, I'll take you out. Then we'll go back to my place and, uh, watch movies and drink wine...yes, yes that was a mistake. I feel as though I've taken advantage of you...I'm a terrible person. I understand if you never want to talk to me again...what, you do? Okay, well then how about you come over and we'll uh, listen to music and drink wine." 9th Dan: "Listen, I just want to say I feel terrible about what happened at your apartment after your parents funeral. I mean, not that we did anything wrong, per se, but I understand it was a moment of weakness, and we shouldn't speak of it again...Oh, you think it could be the beginning of something more? Well I guess I should tell you then, that I also feel terrible about what happened between me and your sister at the funeral...she is over the age of consent right? I mean, not that we did anything wrong, per se, but I don't want it to be weird for you, that, you know...hello?"
Tae Kwon Do - The Tae Kwon Do stylist does not how to do things small. He doesn't know how to bide his time well, and usually lays a huge emotional display of affection on a woman at first opportunity. If it doesn't work out he'll fall pathetically on his ass, and everyone will wonder why he tries such complicated maneuvers. When he succeeds however, the woman will be bragging to her friends about his acrobatic skill and finesse. A Tae Kwon Do stylist is to women as Mike Caro is to poker -- a little crazy, and not afraid to go all in for all his chips with nothing but rags. They're also frequently megalomaniacs. The important part of Tae Kwon Do is to make your attack so extravagant that a woman cannot but feel awkward around you if you fail. Otherwise you are setting yourself up for her wanting to stay in your life. This is not ideal. A true Tae Kwon Do stylist will not opt for a simple side kick when a double jump front kick could be used instead. 1st Dan: Techniques include the dinner and movie and date followed by the first date kiss attempt. 5th Dan: Techniques include the weekend getaway with a woman who might not be into you, and failing to mention you've only reserved one bed. Whether or not assumption is correct will be up to the skill of the student.
9th Dan: Techniques include driving over 500 miles on the chance of ass, flying across any Ocean, declarations of love before the 3rd date, and any date involving taking a helicopter somewhere.
Aikido - This is the way of defensive posturing. The Aikido stylist never makes an aggressive a move of any kind. He instead concentrates on using the woman's natural momentum against her. He is much like the Jiu-Jitsu stylist in a sense, but instead of reversing for monetary gain, he uses the Intellectual Pimp's tactics against her until she runs away from her own momentum. 1st Dan - "Oh, you're having a problem with Rocco again? You can do much better, as smart and talented as you are. So listen, I was talking to Jenna and she laughed when I was doing my 'Richard Gere with a hamster in his ass' impression. Do you think that means she likes me?" 5th Dan - "I know, I know, I told you that bitch was crazy. She's totally trying to destroy you. So...did you read the assignment for Tuesday? I totally didn't have time, and I've got some important things to do tonight. Can you possibly photocopy your answers for me, and, since you have neater handwriting, can you make me some crib notes for the test? Did I mention that you're like a sister to me?" 9th Dan - "Huh? Oh, uh, yeah, that sucks. Hey listen, I think I have a good chance of scoring with this girl...I know you're studying but can you get dressed and come out to the club with me so she can see I'm with someone. If we hook up, you can drive yourself back...Oh but I'll need you to come pick me up tomorrow also...I'd do it for you..that time doesn't count, I couldn't come get you because I was having a very unbalanced day emotionally, and I was low on gas. By the way, I really want to impress this girl, can I borrow some money to buy her drinks?"
Ninjutsu - This technique was unknown to until I saw it used very effectively by a roommate. It is simple, but hard to master. The basic idea is to just not do anything. Whenever anyone asks you to go anywhere or do anything, just refuse, and give an excuse that insinuates that they're not very interesting. 1st Dan - "No, I can't go to the bar with you guys. I've got some sleep to catch up on." 5th Dan - "Sorry, I can't do lunch. I'm trying to finish this book I've been reading. It's not that great, I just want to get it over with though." 10th Dan - "Can't talk on the phone now, there is a good Law and Order rerun on. Talk to you later, bye." Some Techniques for Extricating Yourself from Whoredom
I'm going to try to keep this short, since the ways are difficult and usually come down to a few techniques, which I would have thought would all have been covered by common sense. Silly me. The Homer: Become so crude, moronic, and uninteresting that the intellectual pimp loses all desire to keep you around. This will usually only work if you don't have a lot of common friends or acquaintances. The Jump: Make a ladder jump. Successful or not, you should no longer be her IW. The Cooper: Move out of town. Change your email and cell phone number. Don't tell her you are going to do so. Just disappear out of her life as quickly as possible. The Shamrock: Take steroids or something to get ripped or otherwise make yourself look better so she wants to fuck you. The Kennedy: Inherit a bunch of money so she wants to fuck you. The Vedder: get hooked on heroin or become an incorrigible drunk, so you are more trouble than you are worth. Note: this might backfire, and get you a mother figure. It is equally likely to get you an unintentional ladder jump. Could be hazardous to your health, or just really fun. Use at your own discretion.
Tollan Ne plus ultra
Joined: 15 Jun 2004 Posts: 4139 Location: Pondering the imponderable Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 3:52 pm Date: may 11
The Value Supposition
My supposition is that the women a male attracts is a reflection of the value he has in the eye's of women. Now, I suppose this is a rather obvious idea for one to have, but to me it seems like that not enough men have internalized this information. This topic isn't really touched on by those at mASF (i.e.,alt.seduction.fast) given that it requires a rather brutal and honest assessment of one's value in the majority of women's eyes. It is thought by them that a man who weighs 300 lbs with acne and is 5'2" will attract supermodels based on his patterning ability, which I believe to be rubbish. In the business of mating it is a matter of how much work needs to be invested by the male to get a particular female and if you look like the aforementioned male then in most cases an inordinate amount of work shall have to be put in to secure a female. The example used by the mASF board is the "iranian from hell" a male who looked much like the one I described and he hit on woman after woman in a club until finally with persistence one found him interesting enough to dance with and they left together at the end of the night. Now whether apocryphal or not this story is used to buttress the hopes of all males who may not look like a male model to say that there's more to attracting women than looks, that is true of course, there's also the issue of value, which brings me to my next point. As my title suggests the women a man attracts says a great deal about his relative value in the eye's of women, that is if he is consistently attracting rotund or homely women (e.g., 4's or 5's) then there's something fundamentally lacking in the value he manifests to the world. I posted an article awhile ago about the changes a 155 pound 63 male noticed in women around him as he put on 50lbs of muscle. In a condensed version it was as follows: 155 I date average women. 165 I still date average women and now some cute women
175 I date only cute women with some very attractive ones mixed in. 185 I date more very attractive women but still have the cute ones. 195 I date only very attractive women. Beautiful women are still a bit of an anomalie. 205 When you get to this stage, something very strange happens. All the attention and staring women gave you is gone (mostly). Ugly/Fat women will despise you as will the average women. Most girls will be scared of you (cute girls, very attractive girls) Now I date some Very Attractive women but most are Very Beautiful Women.
From this we can see that his muscle mass did all the talking for him and it is indeed true that many women will find men who are more muscular more attractive, that is they will see them as ideal short term mating partners but not long term mating partners since in studies muscular men are seen as less likely to get emotionally involved and more likely to stray. Now, muscle mass is but one variable that can be used to determine a male's value in a particular context, but as poster Banestyrelsen told me, at a school in Sweden muscular guys were not considered the fittest males and thus were not valued by females as much but at an international school with American kids, where athleticism was more valued, the more muscular jocks were more admired. Now, muscle mass is but one variable out of many that attract women, the example could have just as easily been related to height with the same effect on women around him with a male going from 5'6 to 6'3 and noting women that were neutral to him before to desperately wanting him once he was tall enough. Or one could use the variable of money and look at those women who value it (e.g., gold diggers) and look as a male went from a below average income to that which is well above normal and look at how the women who value extreme wealth flock to him based on his wealth. Furthermore, one could look at fame, and observe how men who are unknown are treated neutrally to being flocked to with hordes of women desperately wanting them because they're famous, which would introduce in the equation of attraction the variables of competition, novelty, and money/power. And one could observe how the quality of women improved as the male scaled the ladder of value in their eyes. So we can say that depending on what the woman values, and it could be height, money/power, fame, dancing ability, muscle mass, clothing, or some other unknown variable, the male will have women who are neutral to him to greatly wishing to mate with him based on his relative value in their eyes, and what they value will vary from woman to woman and context to context. Thus, in HS, it might be Jocks, in College it
might be the Wealthiest males, in Hollywood it would be the power to get a woman into films, in D.C, female interns would greatly value political power, and so on. I would term this subject collectively "milieu dominance" and I believe it was talked about in great detail by the poster Apollo Creed who discussed being the Alpha male, that is the most dominant male, at a summer boating area where he could pretty much get any woman he wanted because he showed the proper amount of disinterest to the hot women and had dominance in that environment so his value in their eyes was extremely high, thus they wanted him. So, in conclusion if a male is attracting a certain quality of woman, let's say 4's or 5's and they want to get a higher caliber then examine what may be lacking in their manifested value in the eye's of women. It could be the car you drive, amount of money you have, muscle mass, height, fame, novelty, whether you're in a band, lack of competition for you so they're not as interested, clothing, milieu dominance, etc...Now finding out what a woman values can be as easy as looking at who's she's currently dating or who she's dated in the past or finding out from her friends who she's dating. I would say you should ask her what she values in men, but her answer would be too colored by political correctness and socially normative answers so it is highly unlikely to be accurate. But, once you find this information out it should be a rather easy or difficult task, depending on what she values and how easy it is to attain it, to get the woman by manifesting the correct value(s). _________________ There's nothing admirable about mindlessly following one's biological imperatives.
Joined: 12 Oct 2005 Posts: 923 Location: NYC or Ann Arbor, MI PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 5:25 am Post subject: Seduction Explained - The M3 Model Reply with quote As per Billydee's request, I'm going to lay out Mystery's M3 Model of Courtship in a pretty simplified format. The M3 Model is Mystery's breakdown and analysis of the COURTSHIP phase of any male-female interaction: meaning, the period of time leading into any full-fledged sexual relationship (be it a fwb situation or a gf/bf thing). Pretty much EVERY scenario fits into this model to one degree or another. If you don't think so, you are probably wrong. Remember that this model covers COURTSHIP (the beginning phase), rather than the actual relationship phase. But then again, this is probably the area of most concern for many of you. { ATTRACT -> COMFORT -> SEDUCTION } ---> Relationship ATTRACT This is the first part of the courtship process. If you are dealing with a potential mate/partner and desire a sexual relationship with her, you MUST focus on establishing attraction first. This is CRUCIAL. A1 - Open - You open the set. In other words, you meet the girl. In a social circle situation, this can be as easy as "Hey, nice to meet you" or being introduced to someone through a friend. In a cold approach, this is usually done through an indirect opener, like "Yo, let me get your opinion on something." This stage also includes the SOCIAL HOOK POINT (for cold approaches). The social hook point is the pivotal moment in the beginning of a cold interaction where the set (the girls/guys whatever) WANT you to stick around for a little bit, because you are INTERESTING. This is done by hooking their interest through negging or an interesting discussion sparked by the opener. A2 - Female-to-Male Interest - Simple: female gains attraction for the male. This is KEY. Notice how this step is IMMEDIATELY after A1 (the opener).... this should show you just how important it is that you start attracting her ASAP. Often, you can transition seamlessly from A1 to A2 by negging off the opener: Guy: "Yo, let me get your opinion... would you date a guy in a wheelchair?" Her: "Yes/No"
Guy: "OMG, it's okay, you can stop being nice... I know you'd just use him to get free parking." "Haha, you are a mean one... I don't know if I can hang with you *turn to her friends* She always like this?" The guy CANNOT show too much premature interest in the girl. You should instead focus on gaining HER interest in YOU/HER attraction for YOU through the use of: Stories Leading her group of friends AMOGing Negs C/F Other demonstrations of high value (going up on stage to perform or whatever) A3 - Male-to-Female Interest Once you know she is interested in you, it is now SAFE to start showing interest back. This is because now that you have a SOLID FOUNDATION OF ATTRACTION, any interest YOU show is less likely to come off as NEEDY. Instead, you are in a slight position of power and in a position to judge if she is cool enough to hang with you (because she has already decided YOU are cool enough to hang with HER, due to A2). How do you know if she's attracted? IOIs... (indicators of interest)... These include touching, asking lots of questions about you, continuous eye contact, teasing back, negging back, etc. However, to fully convey that you are not needy, you are used to hot chicks, and that you are an overall awesome guy, you need to do two things: 1) Have her EARN your interest 2) Be interested in something besides her looks A simple example of this is Mystery's Bait-Hook-Reel-Release method: Me: "Hey... tell me.. are you Swedish?" (Bait) Her: "Yes... why?" (Hook) Me: "Oh my god... I'm a SUCKER for Swedish girls..." (Reel) Me: "I can't even talk to you anymore..." (Release) This is called QUALIFICATION, when you qualify the girl as being worthy of interest. The B-H-R-R method is just ONE example of qualification, where you can deem her cool/worthy/interesting based off on pretty arbitrary bullshit (you may think it's arbitrary but the girls will be intrigued). You can also make them work harder to earn your interest, through statements like...
"Hey, at first you seemed kinda dull... but now that I've talked to you a bit more, you're pretty fun." "So... what do you have going for you besides your looks?" "Blahblahblah" "Cool, I like that." "I like your energy." "I like the way you carry yourself."
Joined: 12 Oct 2005 Posts: 923 Location: NYC or Ann Arbor, MI PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 5:43 am Post subject: COMFORT Reply with quote
Before you can transition into comfort, it's a pretty good idea to isolate, if only a bit. Like, lead her outside or to the other end of the bar or if you're all sitting in a couch, reposition so the two of you are talking to yourselves at one corner of the couch. Just get some alone time. C1 - Conversation C1 is usually an extension of A3, except you're no longer just trying to qualify her. You guys should be just CHILLING OUT and TALKING. This is to create a sense of COMFORT with one another. You know how old lovers can just relax together and just shoot the shit, sharing intimacies about themselves without really worrying? This is the ultimate goal of COMFORT and C1 is the beginning of that. So relax, tone down the c/f, drop the negs.... it's time to see if there are any commonalities between you and her (there almost always are... and if there aren't and you still wanna fuck her, then it's not that hard to make them up). By commonalities I mean... even if you are an Econ professor and she is a Penthouse Pet, there are still commonalities you can build by discussing OUTLOOKS and PERSPECTIVES on things (rather than the actual subjects themselves). Emotions and ideals and such can always be related to on some level. Also, C1 is usually the last phase that you deal with at the meeting location (club, party, whatever). However, it is important that you end on C1, rather than A3 or even A2 (when she is attracted), because it is NOT ENOUGH to insure a second meetup if all you do is attract. You MUST qualify and you MUST establish some comfort, so she doesn't just dismiss you as just another party/club-guy.
C2 - Connection Connection is just conversation taken to the next level along the commonalities and "ourworld" train of thought. Not much to add here except keep talking, keep sharing, keep creating that "us" vibe. Things such as vulnerability stories and letting her see a different side to you (maybe a more tender or chill/laid-back side) is good stuff. Kissing should take place at this stage. This stage can take place over several dates.
C3 - Intimacy C3 may or may not be in the same location as C2. Basically, C3 kicks in when you are in a prime position to FULLY CLOSE THE DEAL. So maybe you guys have a date at your apartment, cook dinner, cuddle together, talk a bit, kiss a few times (C2)... Then the kissing becomes more intense. You guys are alone, so it's good to go. The kissing turns into heavy making out/etc. Bam. C3. You're ready to close this shit.
Joined: 12 Oct 2005 Posts: 923 Location: NYC or Ann Arbor, MI PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 5:54 am Post subject: SEDUCTION Reply with quote
This is it. And this is a CRUCIAL step. You MUST seduce (fuck) her if you want a serious sexual relationship. Set the tone early. Obviously, if you are in HS or dealing with a super inexperienced girl, you can slow down and adapt accordingly (to a 13yo virgin, making out may mean the same thing as sex to a 25yo partygirl in terms of courtship). S1 - Arousal/Foreplay Okay, so do your thing. Heavy makeout, necking, fingering, fondling, whatever... turn up the heat. I'm not going into super specifics here because the most important thing about S1 is NOT the actual techniques for arousal.
Well, fine, those are important too. But it is KEY that THIS is when you start S1... and NOT BEFORE. You may be tempted to push it and push it... say, back in A2, when she is all attracted to you and throwing IOIs. Or in C2, when you guys are out on a date and kissing... and you just start heavy makeout, starting touching her, fingering, whatever. DON'T DO THIS. RESIST THE FUCKING URGE. Everything has it's place. Yes, you might be able to get away with it. But 97% of the time, if you S1 TOO EARLY, the girl will have buyer's remorse. She will not have had sufficient time to feel comfort/connection/intimacy with you, so even if you DO end up fucking her, she will not want to see you again, CUZ SHE WILL FEEL LIKE A SLUT. This model is for SOLID GAME (to lead into relationships). If you want ONS, stop at A3, pump the attraction, and fuck her while she's on that emotional high. S2 - LMR To directly quote Mys: "Last Minute Resistance. This is the point of no return before sex occurs. It's often a freak-out moment for the woman." There you have it. She may be like "This is too fast..." or "I barely know you" or "No sex... okay?" or just push you away from certain areas (like her underwear). You own LMR by defusing it with things like: - "LMRing" first (lol... so basically YOU say "we should stop..." first) - Ignore it with a cute reply ("This is too fast..." "Yeah, but it's fun, right?" *kiss*) - 2 steps forward/1 step back escalation -> if she won't let you near her underwear, concentrate elsewhere, then go back. S3 - SEX Do it. And do it well.
This model is probably the most accurate model out there. You can already identify the problems that IWs have within this model. They start at COMFORT, rather than ATTRACTION, and thus end up on the friends ladder. In order to fuck a girl, you MUST build attraction first. This is KEY. Once again, this is for SOLID game... this is geared toward building relationships or fwb situations. ONS is taken into account, but for an ONS, you just pump attraction and fuck her before it wears off.
Also, it is best to do the LEAST AMOUNT NECESSARY to transition from one phase to the next. Lots of guys like to stay in A2 FOR NO REASON except they like getting a kick out of watching the girl's signals of interest. This is BAD. Stop fucking around looking for validation REACTIONS and PROCEED to the lay. That is all. Enjoy. _________________ "Falling in love is one of life's pleasures." - Juggler "I don't care how hot she is... Some guy, somewhere, right now, is fucking tired of her shit." - Philos
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 Posts: 2335 Location: Chicago, IL Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:21 pm Date: may 11 2006 The Coolidge Effect I think this is pretty obvious, but it has never been mentioned in the LT section of the website. True, novelty is a factor that women look for in men, but it should also be acknowledged that novelty (sexually, "newness," etc.) is also a factor that make a woman attractive. This is otherwise known as, "The Coolidge Effect," for those of you who are familiar with the concept. Basically, we all have the classic Ladder, with women ranked higher and lower, usually based on mostly their looks & the likelyhood they'll put out. However, there is ALSO female novelty at play---un-conquered territoriy, if you will. This is very consistent with the Darwin & biological theories that say that men are fertile for life and have the ability (at least in theory) to impregnate different females several times per day. In short, The Coolidge Effect acknowledges that men will be more attracted to a novel/new woman than to a known woman he has already had sex with several times. For example, you may have a girl who's an 8, 9 or 10 on your hands. Things are great. You've been dating for quite awhile. But in the sex department, things become a bit boring--routine. Even though the scenery/view is AWESOME, it's still the same old scenery. At this point, the novelty factor might kick-in. Wherein you might be tempted to fuck a girl who is only a 7, or an 8 (even if you'r girlfriend is a 9 or 10), simply because the 7 or 8 is do-able and, "new." Now, whether you DO sleep with that girl who is lower on the ladder depends on many things: how hot your GF actually is. How, "boring," your sex life has become with her. The likelyhood you could get away with it, your own personal/moral character, etc. But it still doesn't change the fact that you may be TEMPTED to sleep with a girl who isn't as hot as your current GF. Therefore, attractiveness & likelyhood of a hook-up are not the only factors--it can also be novelty/newness if you are currently in a relationship that has become routine/boring.
Coolidge effect From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search In biology, the term Coolidge effect describes the re-arousal of a male animal by the introduction of a new female. The sex difference that the effect refers to is explained by Bateman's principle. The term comes from an old joke according to which President Calvin Coolidge and his wife visited a government farm one day and were taken around on separate tours. Mrs. Coolidge, passing the chicken pens, inquired of a supervisor whether the lone rooster was sufficient, given the many hens in the chicken flock. "Yes", the man said, "the rooster works very hard." Mrs. Coolidge then asked, "Really? The rooster works very hard? Every day?" "Oh, yes," the man said. "Dozens of times a day." "Interesting!" Mrs. Coolidge replied, "Be sure to tell that to the President!" Some time later the President, passing the same pens, was told about the roosters - and about his wife's remark. "Same hen every time?", he asked. "Oh, no, a different one each time," the supervisor replied. "Tell that," Coolidge said with a sly nod, "to Mrs. Coolidge." The Coolidge effect has sometimes been mentioned as an explanation of why pornographic images (of the female) are exciting to the male when first purchased, but after repeated viewing can "lose its effect." The phenomenon may also explain why male pornographic actors may use the services of a fluffer. Some researchers think that exposure to the pheromones of a new female is a significant factor in this phenomenon.
Pheromone From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search Fanning honeybee exposes Nasonov gland (white-at tip of abdomen) releasing pheromone to entice swarm into an empty hive Enlarge Fanning honeybee exposes Nasonov gland (white-at tip of abdomen) releasing pheromone to entice swarm into an empty hive
A pheromone is any chemical or set of chemicals produced by a living organism that transmits a message to other members of the same species. There are alarm pheromones, food trail pheromones, sex pheromones, and many others that affect behavior or physiology. Their use among insects has been particularly well documented, although many vertebrates and plants also communicate using pheromones. The existence of human pheromones is debated. Insect pheromones of pest species, such as the Japanese beetle and the gypsy moth, can be used to trap them for monitoring purposes or for control by creating confusion, disrupting mating and preventing them from laying eggs. Bombykol is a chemically well characterized pheromone released by the female silkworm to attract mates. In mammals and reptiles, pheromones may be detected by the vomeronasal organ, or Jacobson's organ, which lies between the nose and mouth, although some are detected by regular olfactory membranes. Terence McKenna proposed in his book "Food of the Gods" the controversial idea of exopheromones as chemical signals between, as opposed to among a single, species. He suggested that certain chemicals produced in abundance in various hallucinogenic plants and fungi, such as dimethyltriptamine and psilocybin may act as pheromones produced by one species (the vegetal) waiting for absorption by various others (for example, early primates or hominids). In this way a kind of ecological pheromonal system may be at work among species and ecosystems that have coevolved closely for long stretches of time.
Human pheromones Some commercially-available substances are advertised using claims that the products contain sexual pheromones and can act as an aphrodisiac. These often lack credence due to an excessive marketing of pheromones by unsolicited e-mail. Moreover, despite claims to the contrary [1], no defined pheromonal substance has ever been demonstrated to influence human behaviour in a peer reviewed, published study. Nevertheless, a few well-controlled scientific studies have been published demonstrating the possibility of pheromones in humans. The best-studied case involves the synchronization of menstrual cycles among women based on unconscious odor cues (the so called McClintock effect, named after the primary investigator). This study states that there are two types of pheromone involved: "One, produced prior to ovulation, shortens the ovarian cycle, and the second, produced just at ovulation, lengthens the cycle". This is analagous to the Whitten effect [2] [3], a male pheromone mediated modulation of estrus observed in mice. Other studies have suggested that people might be using odor cues associated with the immune system to select mates who are not closely related to themselves. (see Disassortative sexual selection)
Pheromones in humans are postulated to be produced by the apocrine glands. The apocrine glands become functional after reaching puberty which, some believe, could contribute to people developing a sexual attraction for others at that time. Pheromone detection has also been proposed to be the reason why a person can sense "chemistry", or feel an instant attraction or dislike when first meeting someone. Using a brain imaging technique, Swedish researchers have shown that homosexual and heterosexual men respond differently to two odors that may be involved in sexual arousal, and that the gay men respond in the same way as women. This research suggests a possible role for human pheromones in the biological basis of sexual orientation [4].
Disassortative sexual selection From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search Disassortative sexual selection is a form of sexual selection in which one sex chooses the other, in such a way that the offspring benefits from the diversity of the parental genotypes. Two examples of this form of selection are self-incompatibility in plants and MHC class III genes.
McClintock effect From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search The McClintock effect (also known as "Menstrual Synchrony") is the observed phenomenon that the menstrual cycles of women who live together (such as in prisons, convents, bordellos, dormitories, etc.) will tend to become synchronized over time. The phenomenon, sometimes referred to as the "social regulation of ovulation," was first formally studied by psychologist Martha McClintock, who reported her findings in Nature in 1971. It has also been noted in small animals such as mice and guinea pigs. Females affected will tend to follow the 'lead' of the alpha female. Since the research on the McClintock effect is inconclusive, many important questions remain, such as why it evolved, and how much pheromones and Jacobson's organ play a role. Others have doubted whether menstrual synchrony occurs at all. It is apparent from research that some women at least synchronize after living together for a time. Yet others, in virtually identical living conditions, do not.
Joined: 15 Jun 2004 Posts: 4288 Location: Next to my Android PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 4:57 am Post subject: The 9 Levels of PU and Seduction Mastery Reply with quote Found this over on FS. Thought some here interested in being a PUA might find it helpful.
AFC Levels A WBAFC (Way Below Average Frustrated Chump)... * Is a virgin and thinks women should be "respected". * Has never kissed a woman in his life, doesn't know how. * Is sexually repressed in someway; doesn't understand how guys get laid and thinks its wrong to fuck women, even if he wants to. * Couldn't get laid in whore house with $5,000 in his pocket. * Gets his nails "colored" in order to feel (at least once in his life) what it would be like if a chick was spanking his monkey for him. * Becomes uneasy or embarrassed when talking about sex. Thinks thongs are gross. * Sings along to the lyrics of AFC songs out loud and watches way too many Hollywood romantic comedies. * Gets sweaty and nervous if a woman even looks at him. * Believes his problem is he hasn't "blossomed" yet ...or worse, doesn't know he has a problem. * Jacks off to Japanese comics. * Thinks "be yourself" actually means "be yourself". * Has had at least 10 crushes on chicks he's never talked to, and is well on his way to 5 more ...before finally realizing he might have an issue (that he hasn't yet met the "right girl"). * Thinks players exist only in fantasy... ...if he even knows what a player is. * Thinks the character "Ross" on the TV Show "Friends" is a player. A BAFC (Below Average Frustrated Chump)... * Thinks he might have a problem ...but doesn't know what the problem is. * Bases his perception of romantic love on what he sees in movies.
* He believes in "fate" and thinks the advice "being yourself" is gold...he thinks someday he'll magically meet his dream HB and they'll live happily ever after. * Dresses GQ but talks to dudes all day. * Realizes players exist, but thinks the lifestyle is evil or to be scorned. * Believes that Playboy's "playmates" are not really like other women, because when unfolding the centerfold he blurts internally, "Oh Anna-Marie, you are so beautiful you just can't be one of them. I love you so much I should bless you footsteps wherever you go! Muah!". * When his AFC friends just say "hi" to chicks, he thinks they are players. * Has never heard the term "alpha male". An AFC (Average Frustrated Chump)... * Knows he has a problem attracting chicks ...thinks he'll eventually solve it by doing the same things over-and-over ...or that one day Oprah will give him that one piece of advice that will make the difference. * Knows players exist, secretly wishes to be one, doesn't know how. * Has heard the phrase "Let's Just Be Friends" from just about every chick he's taken out on a date. * Depends on luck for all his success. * Has that "one girl" he's trying to figure out how to get. * May have found mASF but still can't admit to himself he's an AFC ...or miraculously realizes how great a PUA he is already is going to become as when he can finally PU that one special girl after reading stuff in ASF for 30 seconds. All he has to do is just post one request for advice on the forum and start it with "This isn't one-itis, but there's this one girl who..." GPUA Levels A rAFC (Average Frustrated Chump, starting path to recovery)... [GPUA-1] * Has finally gotten past the stage in his life of having "crushes" on chicks, but still occasionally falls into the one-itis trap. * Doesnt currently have one-itis, but stays in touch with his ex-GF (who nexted him a year ago...so he claims it's not one-itis). * Thinks masturbation is OK, but would like to and will try to fuck a chick once in a while at least for the sake of meeting some new people! * Has found mASF and admitted to himself he's an AFC. * Has asked where to find the "Elvis opener" / "newbie mission" at least once ...and has succesfully field tested the one of them, with his mother!!! * Still doesn't know what the Universal Opener is. * Thinks a 6 is a HB but at least is starting to approach more women. * Sees rejection as a bad thing. * Has # closed 10 girls, but all have the same number... 911. * Cant distinguish a flake from a real date...yet.
* Stuck on doing canned openers, isn't aware that openers can be dynamic. * Has turned "Shit!, I fucked it up again!" into his "preferential" recurrent chorus. But hey, at least he's in first line of fire! * Is actively working his way to be a GPUA-2 / RAFC. A RAFC (Recovering Average Frustrated Chump)... [GPUA-2] * Is able to notice falling into the one-itis trap, but is able to control himself in order to move forward. * Takes everything he's learned as rAFC and begins to take real actions. * Knows what the Universal Opener is but still doesn't know its power. * Knows how to get a lot of number closes and is happy about it ...until he finds out firsthand how flaky almost all women can be. * Has stopped kicking himself over mistakes in the field. * Is on his way to curing himself of all aspects of one-itis. * Is actively working his way to be a GPUA-3 / GPUA. A GPUA (Green Pick-UP Artist)... [GPUA-3] * Is approaching as many women as he can. * Is contact closing regularly and finally understands the flake dichotomy. ...and deals with it properly when he does encounter it. * Can post interesting field reports and is enthusiastic for feedback when he does. * Is starting to pull off dynamic openers. * Is happy to be constantly learning from his mistakes. * Is finally cured of all past one-itis, is able to detect the onset of it ...and stops it dead in its tracks. * Has gotten his first lay (with a HB6+ chick) without much dependence on luck working it almost entirely through his conscious actions ...and is well on his way to banging more with the same repeat of skill. * Honestly believes for the first time he is already becoming a PUA. * Can reasonably PU in "street" environme[nts (not just bar, club, or party) ...but may not prefer it (meaning, he has the CHOICE/OPTION). * Is able to provide useful advice to others on their path to improvement. * Is actively working his way to be a PUA. PUA Levels A PUA / Natural (Pick-Up Artist or "Player")... [PUA-1] * Can successfully PU chicks on his own, without wings, even in street PU. * Can get lays from chicks that he's never met before and "cold" PU'd. * Understands AI / IAI and the "natural" mindset, but doesn't depend on it. * Structures PU with a systematic "toolbox" mindset. * Catches himself thinking "Naaaaaaahhhh, I won't post that LR. Looks too similar to that other one I posted last weak... and the chick wasn't more than a 8.5... ".
* Is actually congruent internally/externally when doing PU. * Knows the distinction between attraction and seduction ...and knows how to manage each stage to optimize his PU experience ...or is capable of melding the 2 into 1 cohesive framework. * Knows how to manage his internal state consistently to great effect. * Has methods an know-how which could make a big impact on uASF/mASF/FS101 ...and which other (regular) guys can learn to use regularly and successfully. * Is at least maintaining his skills as a PUA regularly. A PUE/PUG (Pick-Up Expert/Guru)... [PUA-2] * Is a PUA who's also become specialized in a specific form of PU to the point of a consistently high success rate in that niche. * Is conscious enough of his methods and skills to be able to teach them, whether he chooses to or not. * A guy can be a PUG in a specific method, environment, or kind of chick. * E.g. RJ is a PUG for SS, TokyoPUA is a PUG for street PU and also Asian chicks. A PUM (Pick-up Master)... [PUA-3] * Is a top-form PUA, reaching the highest levels of skill in all areas and may also be specialized in a specific form of PU, but not necessarily. * Can be a PUE/PUG as well as being a PUM. * Can PU in street and clubs/bars equally well, environment does not pose a challenge to him. * Knows how to utilize an "ultimate frame" and the ability to re-frame anything and everything to his advantage. * Has experienced thoughts such as: "Oh well, my primary was out of the city and I ignored my secondaries as I wanted to bang again that SHB 10, just to know if she deserved to become one of my FBs... but then I thought maybe I'd rather go to the bar with my friends and play pool... " * Always draws women into HIS reality, not the other way around. * Gives advice that only PUAs are able to pick up quickly. * Gives advice so beyond "normal" reality that it makes GPUAs take pause. * Looks at the game on a much higher level; it is all abstracted to him. * No longer needs "practice" as his life is the perpetual essence of PU. Last edited by Tollan on Wed May 31, 2006 3:55 pm; edited 3 times in total
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 Posts: 2335 Location: Chicago, IL PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:47 am Post subject: Setting Your Frame and Stronger Personal Reality date: may 11th 2006 Reply with quote
I've been getting a lot of PM questions from guys, and I see a lot of recent posts where guys drop the concepts of, "realities," and "framing." To this point, I don't think we've clearly defined these concepts. Fair disclosure: I did NOT come up w/ this concept. I was vaguely familiar w/ it, but after watching a David DeAngelo program, the concept was really beat into my head. The entire concept of "realities" and "framing" have a lot to do with inner strength/game and personal self-confidence. The basic assumption is that people are generally followers and look to follow the alpha male/leader of any particular group. The term I use frequently is "sheeple"---a hybrid between sheep and people. Actually, I learned this concept in an entirely non-dating, non-flirting arena----sales. Back in California I had a part time job petitioning. For those not in California, petitioning is when enough signatures are gathered to qualify a certain issue for the voting ballot for election day. The issues are varied, and these people can be VERY annoying to shoppers becaue they stand outside of grocery stores, Targets, etc. trying to get people to sign the issues. Petitioners get paid per signature, so there is a premium on getting as many people to sign as possible. For the guys who are really good, this makes a shitload of money-about $100-$150 per hour. Well, the company I worked for was very slick & professional. They taught us how to organize, how to get multiple clipboards & multiple signing at the same time, make the signing table like a little party w/ music playing & balloons, etc. My good friend owns the company and introduced me to term, "sheeple". I learned three major concepts with petitioning, and they have a DIRECT application to women and dating. Selling & getting somebody to sign is all about flirting & body mimicing. If you're an OK looking guy and dressed well, flirt with the women---young and old. Hold eye contact, smile, etc. For the guys, adopt/mirror their body language and attitude. Are they snotty white collar? Are they a gruff blue collar? Are they young or old? Educated? Poor or
wealthy? Basically, it trained us to read a social situation INSTANTLY and then adjust our gameplan accordingly.
The power of groupthink. This is where the term "sheeple" came from. Once I got one person signing at the table, did I just focus on them to make sure they were signing everything? NO. Instead, start trying to hook more people. Once you have one or two people signing at the table, it is MUCH easier to hook new people. Why? SOCIAL PROOF. The people walking by see the balloons, the other normal looking people signing, hear the music, etc. and wonder what's going on. They see all of this, and that is a social cue to them that everything is legit (in reality it IS legit, but most people are too busy or annoyed to stop & sign). The power of politely commanding your own reality. This is where self-confidence is KEY. Instead of ASKING for them sign, I'd TELL THEM. Shove the pen & clipboard into their hand, show/tell them what to do, then turn your back on them and start shilling for another signer. Granted some were so hurried that they rushed by before I could do/say anything. Some just didn't trust petitioners and there was nothing I could do about it. You know what? That's OK. This is where self-confidence comes in. You need to know it's nothing personal and as long as you keep pluging, things will happen. Also, I learned to IDENTIFY those people (see the first point above), and didn't even waste energy pitching to them. I just focused on the ones that I either knew I could get or the ones that were unaware/neutral. Using language and confidence you can direct people's behavior really well. When we had multiple issues to sign that would take 10 minutes to sign, I didn't say up front that there were many and it would take 10 minutes. I would just pitch them the first one and get them signing. Then I would flip the page and say, "And the next one.....", etc. About 90% of the time they would unquestioningly keep signing. This would happen EVEN IF I had like 10 issues!! I just kept flipping the page, flipping the page, etc. and they would KEEP SIGNING. Even rubbing their hands from writing so much, or shaking their head because it was so much, but they would still NEVER SAY ANYTHING. Occasionally I'd joke about the length, etc. just to put them at ease. But most would not walk away. Why? Because it would be socially awkward. YOU have set the frame, and if they break it, it might create social disorder. It takes a great amount of psychological energy to do this. Either being really busy and tunnel-visioned to not engage at all, or really self-aware, etc. But most people aren't. So, when you ask for her number or ask for a date, DO NOT ASK....TELL. For example, DO NOT SAY, "Hey, I'd like to take you out on a date. Can I get your number?" Instead say, "Hey we should hang out. What's/Give me your number." DO NOT SAY, "Hey, it was really great going out w/ you last week on the date. Would you like to go out again sometime?" Instead say, "Last week was good. Let's do it again. How does Thursday sound?" Do you see the difference in tone? It still gets the same point across, but you are TELLING her what should happen, and not asking for permission. Just like the
petitioning story. Instead of me asking if they would sign, I tell them, give them a pen, and continue to flip the page. THAT is, "creating your own reality," and, "setting good frame." So the next time you see those terms used on the board (or on other boards or seminars), know what they're talking about. _________________ "Hindsight is GAY!!" -- RedSeraph.
RedSeraph Friend With Benefits
Joined: 30 Aug 2005 Posts: 1675 Location: Higher up, and further in PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 1:37 pm Post subject: Reply with quote On Self-Confidence / Insecurities / Value of Your Own Life date: may 11th 2006 Every experience in life that you have, and how it makes you feel, is a direct result of your perspective on life. Let this sink in for a second, in fact, re-read that line, and stare at the ceiling thinking about it for 30 seconds. Every experience you have and how it makes you feel is a direct result of your perspective on life. YOU are the one who controls your perspective. No one else can change that. Unless you let them. No advice given on this forum will help you, unless you let it. Unless you absorb it. If you see something that doesn't sound right to you from your perspective, you're going to reject it. Right? Sounds like real life, right? If someone gives you advice that makes sense to you from your current perspective, you might absorb it and change a little. Yes? What I'm saying is, advice isn't going to help you. But changing your perspective on life, will. And you're the only one who can do that, not us. Think deeper. For example, let's say you were single. Let's say you'd been single for a year or so, and the girlfriend factor just isn't there. And you go to a bar hoping to meet some cool new girl, and hopefully take her home. You get to the bar, you talk to some new girl, she turns out awesome, but then isn't too interested in you, doesn't give you her number. You come home sad. Let's look at the events here, with the emotions thrown out: 1) Was single 2) Went to bar 3) Talked to cool chick 4) Came home alone But now, let's say you go to the bar with intentions of having some beers and just kickin' it. Listening to some music, talking to some friends, throwing some darts. You go in, you have some drinks, you meet a cool chick, she's fun to talk to, you think she's awesome,
you say you should hang out sometime, she turns you down and goes home. You hang with your friends some more, go home alone, no crying. What just happened? 1) You were single 2) Went to a bar 3) Talked to a cool chick 4) Came home alone But this time, not sad. Why? Your perspective on how your night was gonna go did not involve some chick being interested in you when you set out. Your self-validation did not hinge on that aspect, and even though the end result was the same, you come home significantly happier. What you need to do is find a point of view such that however your life is going, it's seen from a perspective that your life is all right. You will not be able to convince yourself, with your current perspective, that your life is fine. This is a subtle point I'm trying to get across, because it seems like you're already sitting there convincing yourself, "My life is good...! I have a job! My girlfriend's pretty damn cool!" But it seems like you're... well, doing just that. Convincing yourself. Or more accurately, squeezing these observations through the lens of your current perspective, and trying to make them fit so that they make you happy. This won't work! It will feel forced! You need to change your reasoning and your values. You need to realize that some of these things aren't as important as the weight you are giving them. You may need to relax. You may need to let go of life. I recommend finding a park and laying out in the grass and staring at the clouds for one hour, once a week. Ask yourself, "What is really important in life?" Making a living so you can eat, yes. Having a woman? No. That's a bad perspective because it means you are basing your happiness in something that someone else has to give you. The only person you can rely on to make you happy is yourself, and it is done by creating a new perspective lens to see the world, through which everything you observe feels calm, happy, or peaceful. What about being happy about having good grades, basing your value off your academic performance? Still, bad. People get burnt out, people slip. You can't pressure yourself all the time to be perfect. Because when that doesn't happen, your perspective that was causing your happiness to hinge on it, breaks. All you really need out of life is to eat and sleep and have a roof over your head, that's all that's absolutely necessary. And it's relatively easy to achieve, at least for anyone here. Obviously you're doing well enough to afford a way to connect with us through the internet, so you can afford to eat I hope. Smile I'm babbling again, but... the point is, find a way to derive happiness, from things that you will have forever, or to just appreciate everything that comes your way, be it good or bad. Find a perspective that doesn't depend on any one thing or one person to make you
happy. YOU are the one who ultimately declares what sources of stimuli make you happy. You have to find the perspective. I've only given you a starting place. Seriously, go out in a field and think about this. Remember, what you need to do is choose the proper sources of stimuli that will make you happy. Right now you're saying "Well I've got a good girlfriend", which translates to, "I'm designating my girlfriend to be the source of my happiness." You're giving her an obligation she may not be ready for. Or, "I make good grades", meaning, "I'm designating my academic performance as a source of happiness". Can you always make good grades? What happens when you just can't learn something? When a class really sucks? When you get sick, or for some other reason beyond your control, you miss class and your grades suffer? You're putting an obligation on yourself that you might not be able to keep up with. Hell, even saying "As long as these things are true, I can still say I have a good life," is meaning, "I'm designating all these sources as my sources of happiness, so as long as the sources I've chosen are consistent, I'll be happy." But no! That doesn't work either, because no source is consistent! Fortunately for me, I can do this thing where I can say, "Praying to God puts me at peace." Which really is saying, "I'm designating the act of prayer as something that will make me peaceful." You know what's nice about that? I can always pray, and no one can stop me. For a lot of people, this doesn't work, because they say "praying doesn't get anything accomplished in the real world, my prayers are never answered, it seems useless," sure. But that's their perspective and what they want out of it. My perspective is, the act of praying in itself is a meditation process, and I like taking time out not to think about the world. THAT is the source of my peace. So as long as I can actually get myself away from distraction, I DO find that peace, because I put it there. Because I'm getting out of prayer exactly what I put into it. I also have the perspective (and you're welcome to copy or reject) that I will NOT make "consistent results from my sources of happiness" a source of happiness! So when the shit hits the fan, it doesn't make me sad either. Shit happens, and I've accepted it. Because I haven't put pressure on reality to perform for me consistently, by making it my source of happiness. So your "center" that you wish to find, is whereever you want to put it. Your happiness is in whatever source you wish to designate getting it from. You are far more in control of your life and your emotions than you think you are, as long as you remember that you are choosing where your happiness comes from. Watch "I <3 Huckabees" and "Neon Genesis" (skip to episodes 25 and 26, but realize the main character, Shinji, is a huge IW with inconfidence issues). These might help. _________________ "Would you take the poster above you (RedSeraph) as a wingman?" nobody wrote: Yes, because in Soviet Russia, vagina fucks you. Also, spinning piledriver.
Joined: 15 Jun 2004 Posts: 4139 Location: Pondering the imponderable PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 2:46 pm Post subject: Reply with quote Women respond favorably to dominant Alpha males and reject those that are Supplicative Betas Date: may 11th 2006 The majority of women, even those who appear hardnosed and dominant in their lives (i.e., judges, attorneys, business executives) still long for a dominant man who can make them feel "girly" (for want of a better term). If you notice women tend to manifest this in the presence of alpha males, that is they usually become quite submissive towards the male, but conversely they are extremely caustic and quite insulting to beta males because to them these males aren't worthy of respect nor their submissiveness. You'll often see this phenomenon when women will mercilessly mock guys who don't measure up to their standards of what a fit male should be (i.e., the stereotypical IW/Beta male). But, it should also be understood that even with alpha males the woman will continually test him to see if she can dominate him or if he still retains control and keeps her subordinate to him. So even if the relationship appears to be one where the alpha male dominates the woman will continually check to see if the guy is still "fit" enough for her and if she should still be with him. So yes women can be "push overs" but you have to be dominant enough to get away with it or their self-esteem must be low enough to allow for it. _________________ There's nothing admirable about mindlessly following one's biological imperatives.
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 Posts: 2335 Location: Chicago, IL date: may 11th 2006 PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 2:51 am Post subject: Oneitis ON ONE-ITIS Reply with quote
Oneitis: def.---irrationally idolizing and being obsessed with ONE particular girl. Typically, it is before she even becomes a known quantity. The IW is insecure, sees a girl as perfect, likely unattainable (although ALMOST attainable), and becomes unreasonably infatuated with the girl to the detriment of the rest of his life, including academics, work, friends, other women, etc. The quintissential IW. The prevelancy of oneitis is widely suspected of being the main reason why beautiful women put up bitch-shields---so as not to give men false hope and idolize them as a oneitis.
******************* I'm going to cut & paste Flame's post about oneitis, since I think it is by far one of the best ones out there. Couldn't have said it better myself:
Flame wrote: I'm Flame and I have one-itis.
JUST KIDDING. Anyway, your friendly neighborhood Flame is here to talk about one-itis, because it seems to cropping up within these boards these days. A number of posters have talked about their IP/one-itis still maintaining control over their lives, or the fact that they get one-itis easily, blah blah blah. Okay, so what is one-itis? ASF definition: A disorder commonly found in AFCs, that forces them to think that one chick is so special that they'll do ANYTHING to get into her panties. The most common cure for this disease is to go out and fuck a Baker's Dozen of other chicks to see that one piece isn't that special. Well, that's pretty much what one-itis is. But why does it happen? My personal theory is that one-itis most commonly develops in guys for whom quality women are a relative scarcity. By quality, I mean high level of beauty, charm, grace, beauty, intelligence, elegance, beauty, blah blah blah, you get the point. Hot women you wanna fuck, k? In HS, I wasn't very social outside my own circle of friends and had almost no "game" whatsoever. Usually, guys who are like this live happily anyway, because there are things to do besides look for chicks. However, that also means that you aren't exposed to a high number of quality women... SO, that one certain female friend/neighbor/co-worker starts looking super attractive, EVEN IF SHE'S NOTHING TRULY EXTRAORDINARY IN THE REAL SCHEME OF THINGS. This is the main cause of one-itis and in order to make yourself immune to it, you have to embrace this realization. Yes, that "special girl" is special and unique in her own way and it would be great if you were that one guy who could truly appreciate her. This is what I believe true love is similar to. The thing is most guys aren't really experiencing "true love" when they catch one-itis. What they're feeling is a certain STRONG and UNHEALTHY attachment to ONE female, not because they truly understand and appreciate and LOVE the female... but because of THEIR OWN INSECURITIES added to the relative SCARCITY of quality women in THEIR OWN lives. Notice what I'm stressing here: one-itis IS NOT the work of the GIRL, by being extraordinarily special or crazy beautiful or whatever - it's a result of the GUY'S personal insecurities, lack of confidence in finding another/better woman (due to scarcity + lack of social skills/game), and a void within themselves that desires affection. It's the GUY'S fault, NOT the girl's.
Oftentimes, these guys who profess love for their one-itis don't even really KNOW her. Not well enough to truly love her, anyway. You know why? Because if they TRULY understood her, they'd know her well enough to get her - the right way. And if a guy truly does get to know and understand a woman, there is NO WAY he will get one-itis... because if he can see the truth about her, he will also see that she is human, just like himself - a person worthy of love and affection perhaps, but not of the blind, numbinglyretarded devotion that one-itis entails. So... a solution for one-itis? Well, for one thing, it is NOT asking "Well, how do I get this X girl?" Because to be honest, none of us here (not even the veterans of IW.com) can tell you EXACTLY what you need to bag that ONE SPECIAL GIRL. We don't know her, we've never met her, we can't give you step-by-step directions to nail her. If you are looking to solve your one-itis by trying to figure out a step-by-step, personallytailored gameplan to bag that one special girl, you are approaching this the wrong way. Why? Because, like I said, the root of one-itis is NOT the girl, but each man's personal demons. Finding a gameplan or the "perfect line" or the most magical gift to win her over is not really addressing the essential problem areas that need to be fixed - YOUR INNER SELF! What is truly required to avoid one-itis for good is a change. Several changes actually, focused around your outlook on life followed by hard applications to your actual lifestyle: 1) Expose yourself to more social scenes - and thus more women. When I was first working on my game, I used to just go to every party and clubbing weekend I could find out about... no, not to do cold-approaches or talk to girls or game them (though I did start doing this pretty soon). I was too scared at first. But what I did do was watch. And listen. This might sound creepy, but what happened was that I started realizing how MANY fucking GORGEOUS women there were in this world. Seriously... yes there are uglies, yes there are warpigs, yes there are hags at clubs. But there are a fuckton of hot women too, and the sooner you realize this, the sooner you can embrace the idea that you want MORE of these hot women IN YOUR LIFE. That maybe.... juuuussttt maybe, that one girl ISN'T as special/magical as you thought her to be. 2) Work on your social skills/game. This is a very broad concept, but you must work on your skills with women. This means exposing yourself to lots of women... then talking/gaming them up. Yes you will fail. A lot. Even after you get good or decent. But the sooner you can start regularly getting women... well, the sooner you will realize that women aren't jewels, they aren't some great treasure that you only stumble upon once in a lifetime. They are enjoyable, they are
amazing, they are beautiful... but there are a lot of them. Maybe one day, you'll find one that's more special than the rest... maybe. But regardless, women are everywhere, waiting to be enjoyed.
I'm going to end this post here with a story from ASF regarding one-itis. It focuses on the common question guys with one-itis have: "What can I do I get X girl? I don't care about getting game, I just need advice on how to get this particular girl." STORY: You're a lousy baseball player and somehow managed to get yourself signed up as a rookie hitter in some major league team. So in your first few games, you go up to swing the bat at pitches from a typical major league pitcher. He's nothing special, he just happens to be worthy to be on a major league team. You keep striking out because, well, you've so far in your life been a lousy baseball player. But it's cool to be on a major league team... and you don't want to get cut. So if you want to stay on the team, you have to learn to hit. You go to your coach and say, "Coach, I'm hitting lousy against this one pitcher, but I want to be really good at hitting in the major leagues. Can you tell me how I can get a hit through that one pitcher?" The coach says, "Your problem isn't that one pitcher, your problem is that you're a lousy hitter and have never played in the majors. Just practice with the team and play through the season against other pitchers and by the end of the season you'll be in good form. And, who knows, you may even run up against that one pitcher at the end of the season after you've gained all your new skills and be able to get a hit off him then." The guy who doesn't understand or accept what the coach is saying responds with, "But coach, I want to hit good against that one pitcher now! How is finishing up the season with field training and practice going to help me against that one pitcher now?" _________________ "Hindsight is GAY!!" -- RedSeraph.
The Nice Guy Syndrome "Nice Guy Syndrome" is a folk psychology term describing an adult male who seeks sexual attraction and romantic intimacy, but only finds cordial friendship and platonic love. The term originates from a type of platitude often heard by such men ("You're a really nice guy and all, but..."). The "nice guy" is typically a pleasant, intelligent and highly considerate male and with low or misguided confidence (especially with women). These traits often lead to afflicted men being a very good listener, and articulate and expressive speakers. They are also more negatively polite than their peers. Such men are often frustrated, if not indignant, about their romantic trouble. According to some, men abuse the theory of the nice guy syndrome to justify lack of interest from "hot women." They counter that these men make no effort to find "nice girls." William Sheldon's currently discredited somatotype theory stated that many of the personality and physical traits associated with "nice guys" were linked. Such men were of the ectomorph type. Some have linked this type to low levels of testosterone.
Biology Biological science and evolutionary psychology have explained a possible evolutionary role for the "nice guys" of this theory. Humans can act like the cuckoo - the eggs are fertilized by one father, but another bird raises the children. Studies have found that ovulating women prefer men with testosterone-influenced characteristics they consider "rough", while women in other parts of their menstrual cycle prefer men that look like "nice guys". Nasty types are preferred for short term flings (primarily involving sex), while "nice guys" are preferred for long term relationships (which often include child rearing). [1] [2] [3].
The effect on this system of the contraceptive pill and the cessasion of ovulation it causes, is likely to be great.
Dr. Robert A. Glover In No More Mr. Nice Guy, Dr. Robert A. Glover describes the "Nice Guy Syndrome." Glover writes with a slightly masculist perspective from his experience as a therapist. He views the Nice Guy Syndrome as a problem to be cured. Unlike some self-described nice guys, he does not ascribe the supposed female rejection of "nice guys" to poor female
taste. He believes "nice guys" to be troubled by depression, low self-esteem, internalized toxic shame, and confusion over roles, and that these issues make "nice guys" less attractive to women.
Friend/Lover trait confusion One theory about the origin of the syndrome is that it results from the affected males having a false perception of what nice girls (the women they desire) want in a lover. The nice guys believe that deep down, these women sexually value certain traits more highly than they do, and underestimate the sexual value of others. They usually believe that these women want their men to be intelligent and highly considerate of their needs. Conversely, they believe these women dislike stupidity and arrogance, and abhor misogyny and violence expressed towards them. Nice guys also usually believe that nice girls place less value on physical attractiveness (especially the muscles), muscular strength, cardiovascular endurance, and confidence than other women do (see Sexual attraction). Popular cultural sources diverse as many sitcoms to the New Testament express this opinion. Nice guys being romantically paired with nice girls is a common fictional motif, especially in works created for men. However, this view is misguided. Nice girls are not as different from normal as perceived. While they do tend to value the nice attributes, it is mainly on a platonic level. A nice guy who does not also have traits deemed sexually attractive is a likely sufferer of the syndrome. If he does have these traits, he might not even be considered a nice guy, no matter how nice he is. Women are often sexually attracted to men who are not nice, either because the attractiveness of their other traits overpower the negativity of their nastyness, or the nastyness is desired. When a nice girl type friend of a nice guy enters into an intimate relationship with a relatively chauvinistic or abusive male, the nice guy is often highly confused or upset. This mental anguish occurs because he cannot reconcile his understanding of women with his vastly different experience. Yet despite the disparity, his erroneous belief does not change (see Milton Rokeach). He continues to be what he is, and may even try harder to live up to his self-defeating nice guy ideals. His lack of success with women further reduces his confidence with them (and often in general). While similar to the Ladder theory, this theory is not as diametric. Men can be on both ladders under this theory, even if a woman doesn't realize it.
Love-shyness Love-shyness is a concept created by Dr. Brian G. Gilmartin. It describes a chronic shyness some men have of women, while at the same time highly valuing them. He estimates that 1.5% of American men have it. The "love-shy" are a subset of "nice guys". The love-shy value women much more than ordinary men, and desire intimate relationships (both mental and physical) with them more than anything. However, their passiveness and other traits make them highly unattractive to women. Its cause is speculated to be a number of things, including low maternal testosterone during fetal development, hypoglycemia, nasal polyps and certain forms of parenting. Each of these could be important to the development of "nice guys" in general.
Passive aggression Dr Robert A Glover's "nice guy" theory is that the "nice guy's" relationship problems are due to passive aggression. He believes the niceness requires the men to suppress the overt expression of their desires, which leads to less direct covert expression. This can lead to many relationship problems, including an inability to form romantic relationships with women. His cure is to treat the passive aggression. He also acknowledges trait confusion in sufferers.
Too nice Another theory is that as a general matter, women enjoy men who make them feel "special," who seem to value them above the rest of the world. As a "nice guy" is generally nice to most people, women may not feel that they are put above the world when interacting with him. The "bar is raised," as it were. Thus, under this theory, the contrast between the way the woman is treated versus the rest of the world may be the critical factor. Others believe that because a nice guy is indeed generally nice to most people, a woman who may otherwise have been attracted may come to misperceive a clingy or needy aura from the nice guy by virtue of the fact he may seem overly nice compared to most people. Clinginess or neediness are usually seen as highly undesirable, though these traits may foster security and loyalty later in an intimate relationship.
Billydee Ne plus ultra Date: May 17th 2006 Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 2359 Location: Chicago, IL
This newbie poster has clarity of thought. Great things will come from this young one if he sticks around. People are confusing IWs with just simple antisocial nerds. On the socially adept scale, I think: antisocial nerds < IWs < OBs < well-adjusted beta males < well-adjusted alpha males Antisocial nerds have more free time to play video games because they don't have friends (or is it they don't have friends because they spend all of their time playing video games? Hm....). IWs waste LOTS of time & energy on IPs---romantic targets that are obviously dead-ends, but the IW hasn't figured it out yet---BUT AT LEAST THE IW IS OUT THERE TRYING. Eventually if he figures it out, finds IW.com, whatever, he will start to move up the scale--hopefully skipping the over-reacting/over-compensating OB stage. For example, if that same guy were to spend the same time & energy on a romantic target that is NOT a dead-end, then it won't be, "wasted time." Also, if he were to spend that time & energy on an attractive female that IS NOT a romantic target, it would similarly not be wasted time b/c instead he is using that time to develop a friend, a pivot, a social contact, etc. The crime isn't spending time & energy on a girl. It's spending time & energy on a girl for a specific purpose, and then subsequently FAILING at that specific purpose. It's all about efficiency. If after awhile you're not getting what you want out of the relationship (whether that be sex, romance, friendship, resources, etc.), then it's time to NEXT the person.
by :Exitao Title :The Abyss Has Gazed Long Into Him Joined: 16 Feb 2003 Posts : 5577 Date : 05 Oct 2005 There's been discussion of this before here in the forum and criticism of the misogyny in these boards from sources outside the forum. I've always defended misogyny as useful, but some people here are taking it too far and in the wrong direction. Feminists are wont to tell us that the etymology of misogynist is "woman killer." I see no reason to dispute these origins, but the meanings of words do evolve and this isn't Ancient Greece. Misogyny is useful when we kill not women themselves, but the archetypes we have created or learnt. The archetypes of the virgin or the mother are idealised and do not exist in real life. Clinging to these ideals, as well as other romantic ideals, is one of the greatest causes of IWism. A misogyny that causes us to mistrust women, to not idealise and to even hate certain kinds of women (e.g. IPs), is useful and even advantageous to men in general and specifically to recovering IPs. Successful womanisers can evidence this, just ask one how many times he's been called a misogynist in his career. However, there are extreme forms of misogyny which the feminists are quite right to criticise and fear. Extreme and overt misogyny that causes real harm to women, through violence, abuse, oppression or any other means is not good. It's not useful or acceptable. And we shouldn't condone it.
It is the nature of people that when given anonymity and freedom from consequence they will act up. And for a recovering IW there is no better place to act out and try to be the man or tough guy he is not and this, like a degree of misogyny can be useful. However, soothing as visions of dancing daggers and poisoned sugar plums may be, this kind of fantasising is not healthy. Nor is it healthy to fantasise or indulge in speaking of violence, physical or sexual, towards women. Jokes of assault and rape are not funny and should not be funny. If you think them funny, you need think again. Think. Think about real life victims of these crimes and the life-long consequences. Imagine empathising with one of these people, imagine being the
brother or spouse of someone victimised and I'm sure you'll begin to see just how unfunny the subject is.
Often, IWs are IWs because they have not learnt to be men. Being a man means leaving childish ideals behind and taking responsibility for one's own actions, feelings, desires and even thoughts. To not be an IW you have to realise that there are women who want IWs and you have to navigate your way through a social minefield until you find a woman who wants a man, who happens to be you. Fantasising about how she could change, or whatever it is that allows an IW to stay around an IP is just as unhealthy as the extreme misogynistic fantasies. A degree of misogyny is good, but for those of you overdoing it, grow up. _________________ eX
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 Posts: 2335 Location: Chicago, IL Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 9:15 pm date: may 11th 2006
On Maintaining Long-Term Relationships Long Term Relationships (LTRs), present a Catch-22 type of problem. Many people enter LTRs to AVOID having the things we all have to do to get a girlfriend---keeping in shape, being mysterious, busting shit-tests, etc. However, if we abuse the benefits of a LTR too much--let ourselves go physically, spill our guts constantly, letting shit-tests slide, etc., it deteriorates the quality of the LTR, and in some cases can END it. Both men and women are guilty of abusing the LTR status. But this post is focused on a men's perspective. The following suggestions not only prevent men's ladder positions falling in the eyes of the girlfriend, but they will ALSO encourage the girlfriend/woman to keep her end of the bargain up too--preventing her from abusing the LTR status as well (letting herself go, etc.).
RedSeraph wrote:
After commitment settles in, it's ok to do some of the IW stuff, but continue to maintain your sense of self, and don't let yourself be pussy-whipped. Keep up with the trust and honesty, and stay assertive. Don't do anything for the relationship out of a feeling that you have to, make sure that anything done is done because you want to.
On a more basic level, this is what I suggest: 1) Stay in shape, and maintain stylish clothes, good hygeine, etc. This is good for two reasons. First, your GF will stay more attracted to you (instead of you getting a beer gut, showering once per week, and wearing sweatpants all day). Second, you will appear to be more attractive to OTHER WOMEN. Granted, you won't be hooking up with the other women, but your GF WILLL KNOW & SEE that other women are checking you out. This reinforces the idea in her brain that you are attractive and that she has competition and needs to defend her territory. It lets her know in a non-threatening way that if you need to, you can, re-fill The Hopper very quickly & move on with your life.
2) Innocently flirt w/ other cute women. Never cross the line and have lunch alone, etc. But innocently flirting in front of her goes back to the last part of #1 above. It lets your GF know (without you SAYING IT) that you have options, and you can always walk and land something as good or better than her. Again, make sure not to cross the line and cheat on her, etc. But innocently flirting re-inforces point #1 and lets your girlfriend know that at a moment's notice, you would have no problem re-stocking The Hopper with new women to replace her. 3) Don't shower her w/ gifts & fancy meals all of the time. Only do it for special occasions. If you do it all of the time, she will EXPECT it as NORMAL and instead of getting credit for doing it all of the time, you will get busted for NOT doing it all of the time. This is part of, "managing expectations." Don't be afraid to pamper & compliment-but ONLY when she DESERVES IT. Note to all of you IWs out there: a girl does not DESERVE IT simply by agreeing to spend time w/ you and having sex w/ you once in awhile. Set the bar higher. Did she give you a midblowing BJ on the airplane? Bonus point. Did she cook you an amaizing steak dinner? Bonus point. Did she refrain from nagging & annoying you about her argument w/ her mother while you were watching the football game? Bonus point. Did she get all dolled up & wear a new set of sexy underwear to dinner? Bonus point. But do not give out bonus points left & right. Compliments & bonus points should be genuine, but RARE. She will value the bonus points more if she knows she really has to work for them. Remember Pavlov and his dog? Same concept here. Any time you see behavior you want repeated, reward it. Any time you see a behavior you DO NOT want repeated, either ignore it or punish it (depending on your personal philosophy). Personally, I only use carrots and never use sticks (my stick is simply ignoring her). The key here is to figure out what motivates her. Is it sex? Cuddling & attention from you? Money/gifts? Use whatever motivates her as the bonus points. It should be stated here that this concept is a TWO WAY STREET. Women can train men the exact same way. For example, if a guy is late from work or the bar, and he walks in the door and the woman is screaming & yelling that he's late, drunk, etc. what kind of message does that say? OTOH, if EVERY TIME he walks in the door--day or night--no matter what condition he's in--no matter HOW pissed she is---if she is like, "HI HONEY!! Welcome home!," and then proceeds to give him a good warm meal & make him comfortable, etc. (again, whatever motivates him), what's going to happen? He'll learn to associate coming home to his wife as a GOOD FEELING, and will want to do it more. 4) Resist the temptation to spill your guts out, even when she asks. Women are like oil drillers. Their job is to drill your soul for as much information, insight & history/background as possible on you. As soon as the well she is drilling into has run dry, it is very likely that she will start finding other wells that are untapped (i.e., other men), a tempting target. At the beginnig of a relationship, this information drilling is RUTHLESS, like you're on a giant interview. Do not lie, but I suggest telling a straightup answer about 1/3 of the time. Another 1/3 just give a short-but honest answer (that obviously requires follow-up), and the last 1/3rd of the time, just be jokingly evasive. This will DRIVER HER NUTS, and keep her active imagination going and therefore
keep her entertained. Eventually, she WILL find most everything about you (every well has a finite amount of oil, after all). But in a LTR, there are other ways to maintain mystery--teasing, short answers to her questions, discussing your thoughts on current events or gossip about friends, etc. I'll say my famous quote right here: "When the keg is empty, the party is OVER. More accurately, when the keg is empty, the party is MOST LIKELY over. Do your best to ration out your, "personal mystery beer," to make the party last as long as possible. Hopefully after that time, she'll be attached enough to you so that you have a bond strong enough to withstand the fact that you both know everything about each other now, and other people are actually more interesting & mysterious. The longer you can maintain some degree of mystery, the longer you can hold off, "The Coolidge Effect". 5) Be spontaneous. This directly feeds into point #4, because if she doesn't know what you're going to do next, it feeds into the whole, "mystery," concept. Sometimes stay in for a lazy movie night. Sometimes stay in & cook a romantic dinner, sometims go out to a diver bar, sometimes go on a fun road trip, etc. The point is--MIX THINGS UP. This is VERY hard for most people to do---they fall into a pattern. Going to a favorite bar or restaurant all of the time, etc. Women like surprizes, even if they are little & cheesy. Like taking her out to dinner but not telling her where you're going. Being spontaneous also includes SEX. Most couples establish a routine--the same positions in roughly the same order in roughly the same place. Enough w/ the making out/bj/eating her out/missionary/doggie/finish on the bed. Try bending her over the bathroom sink. Try the coffee table. Try getting busy in a restaurant bathroom. The last thing about the, "Be Spontaneous, "rule is---"be spontaneous in being spontaneous." If you do a new thing every Friday, you've got to realize that that is ALSO a pattern. Don't let her figure it out. Again, the more successful you are at doing this, the more you can keep, "The Coolidge Effect," at bay. 6) Keep up your vigilence for her shit-tests. Most guys are hyper-sensitive to shit tests early on, but when they, "seal the deal," they figure their place on her ladder is locked into place. This is wrong. Granted, your spot on the ladder might be more difficult to move, so if you slip up a few times on a shit-test, it's no big deal. But after awhile, it WILL have an effect. Kind of like your GPA. Freshman year (of high school or college), your overall GPA can radically go up or down if you do really well or really poorly in one particular semester. But as the years go on, it becomes more difficult to improve or kill your GPA. That's because it's just one or two data points in a large set of data. In relationships, women remember EVERYTHING. But you cannot rest on your previous good deeds forever. If you slack, eventually that will start to outweigh the good stuff you did early on. So, keep wary. Some guys just give up on the shittests because they're sick of arguing and it's easier to apologize (even if they don't mean it) and move on. This is the beginning of the death-march of the relationship. Don't get me wrong, it's fine to just roll over once-in awhile. You've got to pick your battles wisely. But many guys fall into the trap of NEVER drawing the battle lines and pushing back on a GF if they feel strongly about something. If they are obviously acting bitchy, let 'em have it, etc. If you keep doing little stuff for HER (like shoe shopping w/ her, etc.), DEMAND that she do little stuff for you (like watching football w/ you). Don't be afraid of a little drama in the
relationship---that's is what's, "EXCITING," to her--something she can worry about & talk to her friends about. Then you get to make up. It's like a soap-opera, and women are addicted to that shit. Just make sure not to push it too far w/ the arguing, because then you go from, "exciting-but fulfilling relation ship," to just a, "bad relationshp where we're always arguing."
The ass-kicker of long-term relationshps are--most of the reasons people WANT LTRs are the VERY REASONS LTRs end up getting boring/shitty and/or end up failing & falling apart. Think about it, why do you want a GF? So you don't have to try so hard to pick up women? So you don't have to constantly go to the gym? So you don't have to put up w/ BS shittests anymore? So you don't have to jump through hoops trying to impress somebody? So you can share all of your fears & dreams w/ somebody--much like a therapist and/or best friend would do for you, etc.? So, be very careful when you're thinking that way, because you should realize that going overboard on those, "LTR perks," will CAUSE the LTR to break-up. Basically, going overboard on those perks is like abusing the LTR status. You still should have to keep your shit together--not for HER, but for YOU--to keep your own confidence up, etc. _________________ "Hindsight is GAY!!" -- RedSeraph.
by :mademoiselle_me Title :Initiate of the Greater Mysteries Joined: 27 Sep 2005 Posts : 47: 5577 Date : 05 Oct 2005 Ok. "What about homosexual/bi-sexual/trangendered/spongecake fetishists?" Actually i'm a homosexual female ( a lesbian ). Note that as usual, me too, i dont consider myself as a bitch. Also because i dunno the exact meaning of this word. Its translated as " salope " on the french translation i've read, witch means ... hum ... a girl who loves to fuck. I'm actually a computer geek ( geekette : female geek, in french ), so i prefer coding stuff in perl than fucking. Anyway i fuck a lot too ... but i code more. Hum ... lets go back to the main subject. So what about homosexual ppl. Hope someone would explain me for gays, cause i cant. For lesbians. Most lesbians are bitches ( excluding me of course, as i said ). I dont really agree with the "99.99%" stuff, but lets say so. When asking myself about Ladder Theory, i understood something : Most lesbians only have one ladder. There are exceptions. But yeah, just like men, only one ladder. When i think to all lesbians i know, i just cant imagine they have two laders, and that i can be on the " friend " one. No lesbians can be friends, there's always sex behind. The system is just more equal. So what about the lesbians girls with two ladders ? They just are not really lesbians. When thinking about it, most of her already had sex with a man in their life. Wich is a crime. These bitches are bisexual, and i just cant understand em. Lesbians rating system is just like the mens one. ( see : http://www.intellectualwhores.com/foundations.html ) Some ppl says that in a lesbian couple, there is a man and a woman. Thats shit. There are only two women, who think as men.
If u are assuming this " lesbian man/women " shit, please stop reading this, u're stupid , and most probably not lesbian. I presume gays are the exact oposite, but i prefer a gay to say it Smile \\Comment by Skelington Interesting read. I'd say a more accurate translation of a bitch is not so much a women that like to fuck (that's a whore or slut), but just sombody who is very hard to like and is overly mean or cruel to people without a good reason. I'm sure sombody else can manage a better definition though. \\Comment by FFT "Bitch" is entirely independent of sexual connotations, except for the colloquial "a slut is a woman that fucks everyone, a bitch is a woman that fucks everyone but you." A bitch is just a woman that is difficult to get along with, for one reason or another. Not really. We're not required by nature to fuck everything that moves, and lesbians are pretty undesirable anyway. Again, "bitch" can be completely free of sexual connotations. The only way for a lesbian to be a bitch (independent of women in general) is to lead a guy to suit their desires, and then be like "oh but I'm a lesbian." I've seen a story on this forum where a guy pretty much bought a woman dinner and drinks, and then she informed him she was a lesbian and ran off and danced with chicks. This would be a bitch move. most \\ Comment by mademoiselle_me oh, i understand ... thats looks like the story of the girl who invites u to a dinner and drinks, and then informs u that she is heterosexual and dance with men. This one is a bitch. i understand quite well now.
Dlusion Loquacious Spider-Monkey
Joined: 01 Oct 2003 Posts: 95 Location: Tehran,Iran i guess it should become somewhat clear that the more languages you speak, the more chances you have at being higher at the ladder since the average person does not speak many languages it would score some points up novelty, but as well as in power,[knowing language "X" gives you control and more power if you happen to be in origin of language "X"] I guess knowing some languages would have certain advantages over knowing others, depending on the girls 1.personal preference, 2.global ladder thing[global stereotypes bout ppl that speak certain languages], 3.regional ladder, which would effect regional stereotypes, for example someone knowing language "X" in country "Y" may have a signifcant better chance than knowing language "X" and being in country "Z" just thought i'd share this comments/questions appreciated _________________ Answering the questions nobody asked -D.lu \\Comment by Quinine What's the word for someone who speaks 3 languages? Trilingual. What's the word for someone who speaks 2 languages? Bilingual. What's the word for someone who speaks one language? American. _________________ Comme un fou se croit Dieu, Nous nous croyons mortels \\Comment by bandmember
Prosauce wrote: Dlusion wrote: theres so many ignorant american things like that, they are hilarious
The French are far worst.
but they have better grammar in English than you, so what's that say \\comment by Exitao I speak Spanish. As a (really) white man with blue eyes, it has really helped me p/u Latinas. There are various reasons for this that I have considered. One, the girl is pleased to be able to speak her own language, the one she is best able to express her feelings to be "understood" in. Two, they are intrigued to meet someone who has learned their language and has obviously gotten the feel for it (maybe this implies a sensitivity). Three, it makes you an exotic that they have a chance to catch because they can speak their own language without the disadvantage of speaking in a second tongue. Four, being interested in their culture/language can be a great excuse to talk to a stranger.
I can also fake Portuguese, enough to be understood and maybe get one (I've only been thwarted by bad timing, e.g. she had to leave the country), and can speak some Japanese (enough to get phone numbers, set dates &c) and a little bit of Korean. People are always pleased when you have a genuine interest in their language or culture and your accent and attitude convey a respect or affinity for it. They feel you have an affinity for them. The only exception to this are those who are fleeing their culture or have lost their culture and prefer to be pricks rather than admit their falure to keep some of their history. You always have to be careful to be sufficiently respectful and to speak appropriately for your gender. If it seems obvious you learned from GFs, you'll lose your novelty. Learning how to make love (and I don't mean just "to have sex") in another language can make you a more romantic person in the eyes of women. They can sense the new feelings/emotions that you have learned due to the second/third/fourth language and enjoy knowing that there is something that you can teach them...
Ladder theory From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (Redirected from Ladder Theory) Jump to: navigation, search The ladder theory is a pop psychology explanation by writer Dallas Lynn of the ways in which men and women evaluate potential sexual partners and platonic friends of the opposite sex. The "theory" was popularized through an Internet website. Though it has generated some interest in online communities, it has not been seriously evaluated by any studies, journals, or social psychologists. The ladder theory actually began as satire (and still retains some of its humorous nature). It has evolved into an actual theory that adherents believe to be a general approximation between interaction of men and women. Although presented as a general theory, the practical effect is chiefly intended for young, single men who feel afflicted by nice guy syndrome and trapped in the friend zone. These men are advised to re-evaluate their focus on women who see them only as friends. Contents [hide] * 1 Overview * 2 Terminology * 3 Criticism * 4 See also * 5 External links o 5.1 The Theory o 5.2 Other [edit] Overview The ladder theory explains differences in how men and women evaluate potential opposite-gender sexual partners and friends, in particular why men will readily have sex with an attractive female friend much more often than a woman will have sex with an attractive male friend. According to the theory, heterosexuals put people of the opposite sex into either sexual or nonsexual schemas, or 'ladders'. While men view all women as potential sexual partners, women tend to split men into the sexual or non-sexual schemas and are seen as generally unwilling to recategorize. For men, physical attractiveness is the main factor in sexual attraction. For women, physical attractiveness, emotional stability and sensitivity, and intelligence are sometimes factors in sexual attraction, but money and power are still the most important factors.
Men and women are only willing to have sex with those on their sexual ladder. On the sexual ladder, the more sexually attractive the person is, the more likely sex is. Men have one ladder - the sexual ladder. This does not imply that men want to have sex with every woman on earth, no more than women having two ladders implies that they want to either be friends or have sex with everyone on earth. However this does imply that there are no women that men want to be friends with whom he wouldn't consider having sex with. A man can be friends with a woman who is low on his ladder but she is still on it. This directly correlates to a male's natural urges to spread his genes to as many eligible recipients as possible. (Although anecdotal evidence suggests that men enjoy "friends with benefits" on a scale similar to a woman's 'friends' ladder). Women have two ladders - a sexual ladder, and a 'friends' ladder. The friends ladder is where males who do not make the grade are put - they are more than likely never going to perform a 'ladder jump' and get on the sexual ladder, but will always be given only the friends treatment by the woman. The sexual ladder, of course, is indicative of a woman's more selective sexual behavior and her quest to find a single partner to father her progeny, which also directly correlates to the way females choose to spread their genes. There is also an area known as the 'abyss'. This is the area where members of the opposite sex go that are determined to be completely unworthy of copulation or friendship. It should be noted that ladder theory is intended to apply only to the actual act of sexual intercourse, and not to the establishment of a relationship. That comprises the largest problem with ladder theory's applicability. [edit] Terminology * An intellectual whore is a man stuck at the top of a woman's non-sexual ladder; rather than connoting political abuse of scholarship, it connotes the use of platonic, intellectual companionship as payment in lieu of sex. * An intellectual pimp is a woman for whom a man is her intellectual whore. * A ninja bitch is an intellectual pimp who realizes that her intellectual whores are attracted to her sexually, and intentionally uses that attraction to manipulate these men. * A cuddle bitch is a guy who never gets to sleep with a girl but gets to have intimate moments with her like cuddling, spooning, or otherwise being affectionate. Usually this will occur in private. She probably considers him a really sweet guy, which is the kiss of death. * Friends with benefits are two persons who have a sexual relationship without monogamy, commitment or emotional involvement. For example two good friends who have casual sex between more serious relationships. [edit] Criticism
This theory, just as many others, sheds light into the paradox of many findings that are reflected in many theories involving social psychology. For example, studies have shown that men and women are actually equally influenced by physical attraction; men just have a stronger attitude about it that is not reflected in their behavior. In addition, the theory could be applied to females that need insight on how to successfully win the heart of a very attractive male. It explains popular stereotypes of male and female behavior in terms of a metaphor which assumes the truth of the original stereotypes. However circular or contrary to psychology the theory may be, it still holds ground in pop-culture, and does provide a reason for the attitudes and stereotypes in gender relations.
------------------------Ladder theory The Ladder theory states that heterosexual women sort all men into two groups, friendly men and sexy men. A man cannot be in both groups at once. The members of both groups are on separate ladders, with the most friendly on top of one, and the most sexy on the top of the other. "Nice guys" believe that by climbing the friendly ladder, they can get closer to the top of the sexy one, but they are mistaken. These men fail to see that there are two ladders, largely because they only have one ladder for women. Anything positive a woman does or is raises her position.
callogician Ne plus ultra
Joined: 11 Oct 2003 Posts: 2713 Location: Philadelphia, PA/Los Angeles, CA PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 2:32 pm Post subject: I think you ought to give your IP tactful closure. Something like this: "I have been attracted to you for a long time, and it is unpleasant for me to talk to you/be around you as a friend. I want to end my relationship with you and pursue more meaningful relationships with other women who are romantically attracted to me. I am confident that this will be good for me, and if you have any interest in my well-being, you will understand and accept my decision without complaint." Just call her and read this off verbatim. I guarantee you that it will shorten the period of closure and make it less dramatic. Reply with quote
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 Posts: 2335 Location: Chicago, IL Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:26 pm date: may 11 2006
The Importance of Mystery--aka 'Ration That Beer' Billydee wrote: "When the keg is empty, the party's over."
Usually, I use that term to explain why guys must try not to have complete diarehha of the mouth--not to share EVERYTHING about himself. The girl will get bored, etc. I don't care how well you tell a joke or story or theory or use your seduction techniques on a girl. She WILL get eventually lose the feeling of novelty to you. That's why it's important to switch things up all of the time, have parts of you remain a mystery for as long as possible, etc. How many girls say they like guys who are, "spontaneous"? Guess what? If you routinely whisk her away to a, "surprise romantic weekend," if you routinely do shocking things in public, if you routinely act in an OB manner--she will view you as UN-spontaneous even though the individual actions might be viewed as spontaneous/exciting in-and-of-themselves. If a woman likes you, she will dig and dig to find out EVERY LAST BIT of information about you in an effort to discover what you're about. Just like a oil driller trying to get every last drop of oil out of the well. The problem is, once that well is fully drained--she'll want to move on to the NEXT one. That's why mystery is important. Not that anybody should LIE at all. But be funny & jokingly avoid giving her every answer she wants. Don't spill your guts. Ration your inner self out to her so that she has to KEEP COMING BACK to the well. RedSeraph, you're 100% right. It CAN be viewed from the flip-side as well.
The same can go for women. If they share EVERYTHING sexually with a guy then the guy eventually gets bored, no matter HOW HOT the girl is. Granted the hotter the girl and/or the more adventureous the girl, and the MORE she can DRAW out the adventureous nature (not in a prude way, but in a tempting way), the longer the sexual, "newness," will last. So even after you've done your "10" girlfriend anally in an glass
elevator while she's wearing a french maid outfit eating out some other girl for the 50th time, even THAT shit starts to get old and you'll want to move on. Even if it's just missionary w/ a new "8." That's because no matter how exotic/exciting the sex is with the, "10," the man cannot escape the deep-seeded evolutionary feeling that he's farmed that field one-too-many times. He's done his duty, his seed is needed elsewhere, and he should just let the old field fallow (for another guy, or maybe to return to later himself--the female equivalent of the, "Gatsby Plan," (because sex w/ an ex-GF after an absence of a few years can make the sex feel, "new," again. Think about it. You're at a party w/ a Guiness keg and top shelf vodka. The booze runs out. There is a house party next door w/ a full keg of Natty Light. What are you gonna likely do? That's right---go next door and start drinking the Natty Light. Unless, of course, you want to just call it a night, eat greasy food & crash for a long night's rest--hoping that you don't wake up w/ a hangover. So, the solution to all of this is to either: 1) Accept that the keg will run dry & realize that the party has to end at some point. (aka, accept a faithful marriage w/ a mediocre/boring/non-existant sex life), but hope that once you wake up the next morning, the house that hosted the party has still SOME redeeming qualities to make you want to stay. That's why, if you get married, it's SO IMPORTANT that you actually LIKE the girl you marry--her personality, intellect, values, does she work hard, is she a team-player, etc. Because you have to make sure that WHEN the party is over, you are still cool w/ hanging out w/ the host the next day. And the day after. And the day after that, etc. 2) Embrace a life of party-hopping without ever committing to any single party. (aka, never settle down and/or settle down but cheat on your wife, etc.). 3) Try to go to the next house party, while hoping to still be able to come back & crash at the original house party you were at w/ your friends. (aka, marry a girl & cheat on her, or marry her & try to get her to be OK with mistresses and/or swinging or "open marriage," arrangements). The problem with this one is it usually blows up in your face and everything comes crashing down.
I think most guys who don't think just go straight for #1. Then they're pissed when they marry the first OK looking girl that gave them attention. Most normal guys with forethought go for #2 at first, then when they've had their fill, they go for #1, being confident that at least they had a little of #2 when they were younger. Most alpha guys usually go for #2 or #3. A rare breed of guys will straight-up try for the #3 scenario, but most will ultimately fail. A golden few succeed to have it all without jealousy getting in the way, etc.
korosu Sine qua non de whorus boardus est
Joined: 17 Nov 2005 Posts: 630 Location: LA or Cornell U. PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 5:25 am Post subject: Reply with quote Why Keyboard Jockeys Are Still n00bs & the Importance of Building Outer Game date: may 11th 2006 Flame wrote: Being your own man and having confidence and all that stuff is great. Here's the thing though - interacting with women and getting them into bed with you is a SKILL. You may deny it. You may believe it's all chemistry and magic. But it IS. Some guys have it naturally. Like that jock in hs who was good at every ballsport he ever touched. Some guys just HAVE the necessary qualities or whatever to pull chicks. Many DON'T. You might feel uncomfortable about a lot of what mASF teaches and I agree that most of it seems retarded or too "social-robot-ish." But that's because I think, especially with Strauss' book out, people have been starting to develop a skewed version of what mASF and all the material is really about. People think it's about approaching tons of girls and just spitting out this STACK of SHIT, games, stories, whatever all the while analyzing 2138942789432 frames of kino per second and calculating the perfect body language proximity for optimal conveyance of active disinterest. NICE. But it's not. It's not, though many guys believe it is. What mASF offers and much of what I try to share here are training wheels. Crutches, if you will. "Oh, but I don't need crutches. I'm my own man. I just need this confidence boost and the willingness to walk away and I can bag chicks. Yeah. Shit, I don't NEED that shit." Maybe you don't. But probably, you do. Maybe just a little bit. You wanna know why? Because if all you needed was some confidence, you'd be bagging chicks. I don't mean fucking tons of them, but guys with the necessary skills + confidence have OPTIONS. They can't NOT have options, because once you got that combo of skill + confidence going, women are naturally drawn to you. It's just how it WORKS. But most guys don't. They don't have the skills. And what's worse, they refuse to accept that they AREN'T fucking naturals. For a natural, he doesn't even register this shit as
actual skills, because everything (cocky/funny, presenting a sexual identity, making physical moves) comes INSTINCTIVELY. Here's the kicker: YOU CAN'T BE THAT GUY. IF YOU WERE, YOU WOULDN'T BE ON THIS SITE, YOU WOULD BE GETTING LAID. So, what's left? If you've ever played hs sports, what did you do when you realized you weren't a natural Michael Jordan. You fucking practiced, didn't you? Shit, even the coach knew 95% of his team sucked balls naturally, so he ENFORCED practices. He gave you pep talks and instilled confidence, but he also made you fucking run those laps and practice those shots till you were sore as hell. But you GOT BETTER. YOU COULD SCORE. SAME SHIT. The routines and all that... they are TOOLS. When you have sufficiently developed your OWN LIFE, your OWN IDENTITY, to the point where you are interesting and social and skilled enough with your OWN STORIES and your OWN way of presenting yourself to women that you can get chicks.... THEN FUCKING THROW THAT ASF SHIT AWAY. But... if you're not there yet... what do you have? Yes, every man has stories. Or rather, every man has life experiences. Turning those experiences in stories to share, not only with women but men in general, IS A SKILL. Every man has interesting games or fun shit to do with friends. Extending that fun vibe and drawing women to you through these things IS A SKILL. Every man has funny shit to share. Sharing that stuff so it comes out funny and people laugh IS A SKILL. Wanna know why? Because if they weren't true skills... if anyone could possess them or pick them up at the drop of a hat, then we'd have a fucking MASS of people who were charming, good storytellers, immensely popular, and chick-magnets. BUT WE DON'T. BECAUSE THEY'RE SKILLS. Inner game is SO IMPORTANT. But don't bash outer game either. Because inner game is SHOWN and TRANSLATED THROUGH outer game. The classics of mASF are useful because they show what works for other people. Thats why people use that material and drill themselves so they can MASTER the TECHNICAL aspects of socially interacting with and getting a woman into bed... many of them cling to it even after they are good, which is BAD, but there's nothing wrong with the material itself. Like I said, it is a TOOL for LEARNING. When I give lines that I use or examples of excellent kino, I am merely providing an EXAMPLE of what is a good c/f response, of how to pass a shit-test, of what is a good physical interaction/escalation. If you have your own that is just as good, by all means USE IT. But if you had your own shit that was so good, you'd be getting laid. So until you can come up with your own shit, it's not wrong to share material. Because that's how you learn. By emulating excellence until you yourself are excellent and have your own flair.
And don't worry about adding your own flair, your own style. Because the TRULY SOCIALLY POPULAR AND EXCELLENT people ALWAYS end up making things their own. You HAVE TO, in order to get that LAST BIT of congruency and personalization. But... that's a long way off for most social retards, for most IWs. You can fuck around and agonizingly inch there. That's fine. But it's also okay to model things after what's already been established as usable. Also, I wish people would stop classifying mASF stuff as dancing monkey bullshit. It isn't. There are MANY VARIETIES of GAME, just as there are many different TYPES of people. Magic was the specialty of ONE MAN and it is not his fault people are copying it to the letter. If you were smart, you would take what works for you and make it your own. If you're not a magician, FUCK Mystery's routines. But there's nothing wrong with emulating the basic principles BEHIND his routines, because those are true and dependable. Do you think when I hit up a party I go around showing magic tricks and making girls laugh with an assload of games and jokes? NO. I have my OWN style. But I'd be LYING if I said I developed my own identity completely from scratch on my own. Because two years ago, I didn't know JACK SHIT about what I COULD be, what I WANTED to be. And most of you don't either. How do I know that? Because in order to truly KNOW, to truly UNDERSTAND yourself, you must lose yourself. THat sounds poetic and gay, but it's true. You have to be lost and confused and fucking trying everything until the parts that surface, the parts that your internal voice accepts and approves are all that remain and suddenly you realize: this is me. And this is a BETTER me, for having gone through this cleansing process. That's why I'm always advocating the "try it first, then decide" philosophy. Yeah, some things can be accurately assessed without experience. For example, you wouldn't want to get shot and die for their country. So most people decide not to join the army. Most people don't want to risk getting jailed and assfucked, so they don't commit crimes. DUH. However, even then... you don't REALLY know, do you? Do you know the emotions a man feels when he is dying for his country? Or the sick thrill some criminals get when they flout public authority and have that last joyride/shootout/domination of some victim? No, you don't. I don't either. But we can decide for ourselves that the benefits are not worth the costs and so we do not act in those ways. But it's DIFFERENT when it comes to women. Because honestly... YOU'VE GOT NOTHING TO LOSE. Shit, do you fucking really know if you want a relationship? Do you KNOW your ideal woman? Do you KNOW whether you'd prefer a FWB over an ONS? If you haven't experienced any of them, the answer is NO. The only way you'll EVER know is to experience it and judge for yourself. AND the experience is usually FUN. It is heartwarming, passionate, delightful, pleasurable. It ROCKS. I don't know
why you wouldn't want to experience these things and judge what is best for you FOR YOURSELF. But... to experience these things... require skill. Meeting a woman and getting her attracted and making her feel comfortable with you and fucking her is HARD. It is FUCKING HARD. Because women are not stupid, nor are they socially weak... they are fucking POWERFUL when it comes to social situations. ESPECIALLY the HOT ones. So, let me tell you right now, confidence might be enough for some guys. But for many, it is not. It wasn't for me. You wanna know how I know? Because for the last year of high school, all I did was approach girls based on confidence. Based on the belief that I deserved a good and hot woman. Shit, I made a move on my IP with my newfound "confidence." And it FAILED. Why? Because I didn't lay down the right groundwork. Because I approached the situation ALL WRONG, even though I did it with CONFIDENCE. THAT'S where skill comes in. THAT'S where outer game comes in. Except, when I thought about it.... I didn't have a FUCKING CLUE what it exactly was that I did wrong when it came to my IP. Yeah, people here say "be willing to walk away" "show her you're not needy" "demonstrate that you are alpha" but do you fuckers know the exact actions and tonality and words needed to demonstrate all these things? If this doesn't come instinctively to you, THEN YOU HAVE A FUCKING LONG WAY TO GO. THE SOONER YOU ACCEPT THIS, THE BETTER. Because... just like learning computer coding or a foreign language... it takes TIME. Time to understand new concepts. Time to deal with shock value. Time to internalize. Time to internalize and MAKE IT YOUR OWN. So those of you who bash approaching 100s of sets and practicing body language and running routines over and over, FUCK you. Because, that's how I fucking built up my skills with women. From the ground up, from scratch, inch by inch. Because honestly, I was LOST. I had all these good and cool concepts of being alpha and cocky and funny and confident... but I had NO IDEA HOW TO ACTUALLY DO IT. In THIS situation, at THIS moment, with THIS GIRL.... do you know? Can you respond instinctively? If not, then ACCEPT your lack of knowledge, your lack of SKILL, and WORK ON IT. _________________ ^__^ AAW ^__^
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 Posts: 2335 Location: Chicago, IL PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:17 am Post subject: Regarding KINO date: may 11th 2006 Reply with quote
The Process of Kino By Studiovice Studiovice wrote: This topic was inspired by Billydee. Most you need to practice touching women. I know that sounds really weird but a lot of guys need to practice kino because it's not something that comes naturally to them. Guys here aren't used to touching women so they hesitate for that split second, or they're stiff when they're trying to initiate kino, which ruins it and makes it awkward. Guys that are good at initiating physical contact have been doing their whole lives. It comes naturally to them. The reason that some girls say they don't like guys trying to be touchy feely is because with some men, it's very obvious that they're trying to initiate physical contact, and it's a little weird. "OBs" typically can initiate kino because they can do it casually. Kino isn't just about touching a girl, it's about casually brushing her leg, or something, to make her think about physical contact. Kino needs to go in a certain order, otherwise it seems too forward. First, you want to touch the arm area. Top or bottom, it doesn't really matter. You can do this during conversation, when you're telling them something or sharing some information, or an opinion. The key to doing this is to maintain eye contact with the person and not look at your hand while touching her. Or, if you're talking about something or someone nearby, you look at that person or object. Next, you can touch the leg, but only if you're sitting. Don't necessarily rest your hand on her leg, because that's weird. If you're sitting on a couch angle yourself to have you knees touching. It's very subtle, but she will notice. If she moves away, then she's not into you. If she pretends your knee isnt touching her, then you can proceed farther. If you're not sitting, you can touch her back next. If you didn't have any leg contact, then a good way is to start up at the top and work you way down. Like the arm thing, you can place your hand near her shoulder blades during conversation.
Next, you can touch the small of her back. A good way to do this is if you're walking. I wouldn't advise doing this when not walking though, unless you're really slick. A good time to do this is when leading her through a doorway. This is a good time to judge whether or not she's interested. This is just above her ass, so it's a very sensual spot. If she pulls away, back off a bit. This could mean that you're moving too fast or that she's not interested. If she ignores you, keep going. Next, is the face. If you're sitting on the couch and the leg thing is going well, you can move from the leg to the face. The best excuse for touching a face is "hold still, you have an eyelash." And then pretend to brush it away. Remember, there doesn't NEED to be a loose eyelash for this to work. FAKE IT. However, look where you're touching, because if you're making eye contact and not looking for the "eyelash" then it's weird. However, after you brush it away, you can make eye contact for a couple seconds. One good way is to place your hand on her temple and brush the lash away with your thumb and then as you're pulling your hand away, slightly brush her cheek in a downward motion with the tips of your fingers. Now, if she lets you touch her face without pulling away, then she's probably into you. Now remember, this is just a progression. If you're sitting on the couch talking, you can go from touching her arm to touching her leg, but keep touching her arms sometimes too. Things to avoid: -Putting both your arms around her. BAD!!! VERY BAD. If you're sitting, you can do the lame, but successful tactic of resting ONE arm on the back of the couch that's behind her. But don't do the yawn thing. A good time to move your arm there without looking suspicious if when you're changing positions. If you're just sitting there, then you can maybe cross your leg, and put your arm behind her. (And on that note, men cross their legs by putting an ankle on their knee, they don't cross knees. Women cross their knees.) If you're standing, after some kino, you can put ONE arm across her shoulders and lean on her, but that only works if you've been teasing each other and you're in a group of people. If you're standing in a group of people, you can just lean on her while talking to your buddies. But watch from the corner of your eye to see if she's okay with it. - going out of order. I know it seems weird, but if you're talking to a girl and you suddenly try to put your hands on her back, she'll think you're nuts. - never, ever cup her face with both hands. This might seem like some romantic gesture that works in movies, but no. IT NEVER WORKS. - if you're going to kiss her, DON'T ASK. NEVER EVER ASK. Women hate that more than anything. HORRIBLE.. Just do it. If you're worried, then say "I hope you didn't mind that" AFTER you do it. but don't ask. -also, if you're going to kiss her, you need to hold her face still. Sounds crazy, I know. A good thing is to put ONE hand around the side of her neck with the thumb just in front of
the ear. Another is to lift her chin up with your hand, but DON'T pause to look into her eyes. If you put your hands on her shoulders, she'll turn away. If you put your arms around her waist, she'll turn away. If you just lean in, she'll turn away. Girls always turn away. It's some weird instinct, so you have to hold our heads a bit. The only time it's acceptable to cup the face with both hands is if you're going in for a very aggressive kiss. If this is the case, then you're going for the surprise factor and you just grab her face and go for it. Not for beginners. - Also, girls know how these things work. We're not stupid. If a guy is touching us, it means he's attractive. If we're not interested, we'll pull away. If a guy says, "come over here, I want to talk to you" we know he doesn't want to talk. This line almost never works. kiss test If you're flirting, and she's flirting back; if you can touch her, and she doesn't flinch, then you should just kiss her. Try casually or "accidentally" touching her cheek, neck, thigh, or the small of her back. One good line is "hold still, you have an eyelash on your cheek," and then pretend to brush away this mystery eyelash. If she pulls away, you know she's not interested. If she lets you and gives you the "fuck me" eyes, then kiss her. If she doesn't want it, she'll pull away. This is a kiss test. Its where you're sitting or standing with the girl, and you look over at her and touch her hair. run your fingers through it or something, whatever you want. if she doesn't move back, and keeps looking in your eyes, that means she's ready to kiss. if she pulls her head back....or looks the other way...anything bad. .that means she's failed the test and shouldn't kiss. As many as you can think up. I would suggest not doing the same one over and over, figure out a new one. Seriously, any stupid shit you have seen in movies before a dude kisses a girl (this is the only time you will see me reference a movie like this) is usually something you could consider doing. Fingers through hair. Arm around her. Lifting her chin so she looks into your eyes. Etc etc etc.. Combine moments like that with the right words and you just might make her WANT you to kiss her right there, even if she didn't want it or even think about it up until then. All a kiss-test is is moving in close to a girl and watching how she reacts. Does she pull away, does she look away, does she smile, does she look you in the eye, does she lean in to you, does she give positive body language or negative body language? It doesn't really matter what you do to lean in or close the gap. Women will buy generic fairy tail bullshit kissing body language and eat it up. As far as timing etc, you just do it when the time is right, ie there is a little bit of a pause in talking, and you can feel sexual tension.
Brushing hair from a girls eyes, hand on neck (ONE hand on the side of her neck just below the ear), hand tilting chin up so you can kiss her, hand grabbing her hand and pulling her close to you. Great examples of what to do before kissing a girl Pretend she has an eyelash on the corner of her eye. You reach to brush it away. While your hand is touching her face, hold direct eye contact for about 3 or 4 seconds. If she pulls away, she won't want you to kiss her. If she maintains eye contact, or if she only does for a couple seconds and then looks down and away, then it's probably okay to kiss her. You could try to kiss her at this point - Touch arms/elbows together: this is when you are sitting next to her, and you both are facing the same direction. You can lightly elbow her, you can push your upper arm against hers for a sec, or you can sometimes lean on her temporarily (or longer, depending on her comfort). This is low risk and easy to pull off, because it's not with your hand, so looking at your hand isn't a problem (and it's hard to look at your arm/shoulder when you are so close to her).
Basic guidelines for kino - By Flame Flame wrote:
1) How comfortable the girl is with being kino'd DEPENDS 98% on YOU and how comfortable YOU are with it. That means if you hesitantly take a girl's hand, both of you will be intensely aware of the contact and it will just be fucking awkward. On the other hand, if you just grab it naturally, playfully, and start moving somewhere, most times the girl will unquestioningly follow you and be chill about it, because it shows YOU are NOT nervous, that YOU are a physical/sexual/cool/experienced person and NOT a FREAK.
2) Early on, you keep kino SHORT but FREQUENT. As things escalate, you LESSEN the frequency, but start getting MORE intimate/intense. For example: when you meet a girl, don't just smile and say "hi." Fuckin stretch out your hand (naturally and without a trace of self-consciousness) and high-five her, but keep your fingers loose so if possible, you guys intertwine fingers. Then you drag the hand for and pull it for a SPLIT second, then LET GO. You detaching first shows that you're very natural and used to physical contact. It shows that you're confident. Also, from now on, she's open to high-fives and hand-grabs from you.
Other examples: when you guys are laughing or she makes fun of you or whatever, you laugh and push her lightly. If she does something retarded or even if she doesn't, you can just be like "omg, you're so weird but, adorable..." *throw an arm over her shoulder, quick side-hug, then turn away, disconnect, do something else* Any opportunity that you can, you should be touching and then cutting it off. It generates fast intimacy and makes you exude confidence/experience/flirtiness.
3) Kino amplifies state/mood. So you use it to physically support your cocky/funny, your push-pull, your flirting basically. Ex: So I'll be like "wtf? are you rich? nice! we're getting married" *grab her hand* "can you cook? no? k sorry we're broken up" *daintily place her hand on the table or something, like it's a dead rat* See how this works? You just use the kino to physically accompany your push-pull flirting. Because you touch on a high point (when both of you are enjoying a joke or the flirting) and then take away the touch on a low point (when you are verbally pushing her away) it makes her AWARE of the absence of your touch. It AMPLIFIES your flirting, establishing attraction MUCH faster. These are the basics, as well as I can remember. If you want more, just ask I'll lay out some more shit, like kino-pinging and games you can play to test her. NOW, ON COLLEGE: I'm still in college so I know how daunting it can be. I'm still meeting new people and sometimes, I can walk to and from class and not meet anyone I know on the way there. This is because I go to a school with like 6,000 per class, lol. If you are a freshman, befriend people in your DORM man! Froshies in dorms get drunk and hook up with each other all the time, in the most random combinations. Also, just join SHIT, like clubs and orgs. Really, this is the easiest way to meet people. You don't even have to join EVERYTHING, just pick a handful that interest you and get to know people. For example, I'm in an Asian-interest fraternity, the boxing club, and the student paper. Every weekend, I am either doing fraternity stuff, partying w/boxing club ppl, or going to newspaper meetings/after-meeting parties. Seriously, in college, clubs = people meet to take care of club stuff, THEN PARTY. Join a sports team/physical hobby, so you can meet other dudes your age and they'll hook you up with parties/chicks. Just try to push yourself out of your comfort zone each day. _________________ "Hindsight is GAY!!" -- RedSeraph.
The one good thing about IWs is that their experience will be very valuable if and when they resolve to change their IW ways. IWs are essentially the, "fly on the wall," and have the ability to witness women and how they think/act when they think they aren't being observed. In the minds of women, IWs are basically viewed as girlfriends with penises. "They don't really count," as a man, and thus women will be honest, drop their guard, etc. and say what they really feel. Granted, when she's complaining to the IW about how her OB boyfriend makes her give him a blowjob immediately after giving her anal, it hurts the IW to hear that. But he shoudl ALSO be aware and listen for the reasons she likes her OB boyfriend, etc. It's a front row ticket to a woman's inner thoughts. Also, if/when he chooses to change his ways, his former IP can be an EXCELLENT resource as either a pivot, or at the very least social proof to get other women. Once a guy starts having other options, other girls, etc., having a female buddy is VERY useful. You basically start to do what she used to do to you--ask her for romantic advice about what to do with the other female interest you have. This is assuming that she's actually friendly and not a ninja-bitch.
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 Posts: 2335 Location: Chicago, IL PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 6:41 pm Post subject: Reply with quote Regarding the question of: "What matters more, good looks or solid, 'game'?" date: may 11th 2006
Advanced warning: LONG POST Serpent wrote: wow it's coming out of the mouth of a experienced girl too so when bitches say personality is more important are they saying it to lure in potential IWs?
No, that's NOT the case AT ALL. First of all, stop calling women, "bitches." It's a clear sign that you are a newbie and was recently burned and are still bitter, vulnerable & wounded. A common mistake that former IWs do is to over-compensate and swing WAY over to the other side and become total OutlawBikers. In fact, IWs and OBs have the same problem: insecurity & a lack of confidence. They just happen to cure/compensate in different ways. IWs try to cure it by being too nice and hoping it will make up for their insecurity. OBs try to cure it by adopting this cartoon mask of a badass and keeping/pushing women away because they are too afraid of being hurt emotionally. Both go for the EASY route--glossing over their insecurity, sweeping it under the rug, etc. Instead, if they want to REALLY solve the problem, they need to take a good hard look in the mirror, ADMIT that they're insecure, and figure out/work on the root/core of the problem. Dig down deep & address the issues from whatever relationship or childhood dynamic that made them insecure. THEN, they need to overhaul themselves, and basically build themselves up psychologically from the foundations all over again. This is a TOUGH task to do. I takes honesty, humility, TIME, effort, and a willingness to admit that they WERE/ARE a giant pussy and are willing to put in the energy to change their ways---but in an HONEST and hard-working way...NOT in a way that will simply coverup or gloss over the problem (like being an IW or an OB). But anyway, I digress....
Yes, women say they want a guy w/ personality & a sense of humor. NEWS FLASH: THEY ACTUALLY MEAN IT. Think about it. We are ALL social animals. We depend on social connectivity and interaction with other humans. When a guy is confident & has a personality & has a sense of humor, and has social awareness (i.e. HE HAS GAME), that means that he is good at navigating the social fabric and the enviornment that he's presented with. He understands human interactions. He knows how to win friends, influence people, avoid (or destroy) obsticales & enemies. To women, this translates into: "He knows what he's doing. I am safe with him. If I stick with him, I will be protected and will be guided through the choppy waters of this dynamic social environment. I can relax. I can focus on what's really important in this world, which is caring for my children. My children can grow up & learn in a safe environment because this man that I am with is a solid guy and is helping to CREATE this safe enviornment for us." So yes, having personality, a sense of humor, intelligence, being socially savvy is VERY attractive to women. But guys need to address the OTHER side of the equation too: Good looks, being built/in shape, dressing well, etc. The fact of the matter is, there was a day when humans were just simply animals with no logical reasoning and just pure animal instinct. We've advanced over time, but there's still a little part of us who are very animal and instinctive, especially when it comes to mating & reproduction. Think about it. When you get horny, doesn't most of your brain just SHUT DOWN? You aren't thinking about your job, or the latest news, or sports scores. Your reptilian & limbic part of your brain basically hijacks your body to the point that you are a machine/robot who just wants to fuck. Well, I have another News Flash: Women are NO DIFFERENT!! Women like to fuck & have sex just as much as men. When they see a powerful, stylish & confident guy who is good looking, they can't HELP but want to fuck them. I don't care what modern social movements say. Don't get me wrong, I 100% support the modern social movements and advancements that women have made. I think they're great. But the simple fact is, you cannot undo 80,000 years of human evolution with 100 years of social change. Humans are hardwired a certain way, and despite what recent social movements have communicated, one cannot simply undo the hard-wiring that quickly. What does this all mean? The evolutionary stamp & the social movement are incongruent. It basically presents a confused image/impression/picture to the modern male. He asks himself, "What do women really want? A guy who is good looking, or a guy who, "has game?" The answer is: A little bit of both. It all goes back to reproductive biology & social constructs. Read my previous, "Billydee's Classic Posts" in the GLD for details. The fact is, women want a guy who is good looking (hot, sexy, etc.) AND who can provide stability, resources, can guide her through the choppy waters of life, etc. She wants it ALL. HOWEVER, due to social biology and social psychology, it is "uncool" for women to admit that they want to be
fucked & totally dominated. If they say this openly & publicly, they will be labeled, "whores." So, when people ask women what they want in a guy, she just OMITS the fact that she wants a strong, good looking guy to pound the SHIT out of her, (because she's afraid of being labeled a whore), and instead, just says, "I want a guy who is confident, knows what he wants, has a sense of humor," etc. Then she HOPES that people read between the lines and understands that--even though she isn't SAYING IT--that what she ALSO WANTS is that guy who is strong & confident who will completely dominate her and fuck her brains out. If you think about it, guys are the same way. Ideally, we want this strange hybrid/combinaton of a girl who is smoking hot & sexy who we want to fuck, and a girl who is comforting, nurturing, motherly, etc. so she would be a good mother to our children. If a girl is too much "sexy," she is labled a slut. If a girl is too motherly & nurturing, she is un-sexy and is labeled the, "good girl," or, "little sister," that you don't want to fuck. It's all about balance. _________________ "Hindsight is GAY!!" -- RedSeraph.
mastablast2001 Loquacious Spider-Monkey
Joined: 19 Mar 2003 Posts: 89 Location: none PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 6:18 am Post subject: David Deangelo Reply with quote whats up guys, its been over a year since my last post and visit. and i'm posting this without searching, so fuck yourself. date: may 11th 2006 anyone advocate david deangelo's "double your dating" strategies? i've employed a few of his teachings that i got off the internet and have noticed some changes in the way women respond to me. he does teach the OB philosophy, but not to the extreme i hear a lot of guys on this forum talking about it. anyway, anyone agree/disagree and why? _________________ LT is true Back to top View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger Tollan Ne plus ultra
Joined: 15 Jun 2004 Posts: 4139 Location: Pondering the imponderable PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 3:36 pm Post subject: Reply with quote DeAngelo's technique of cocky/funny in my opinion seems to only work with guys who already have high value thus giving them the option of breaking rapport with women by acting c/f. But, to me if you look like Screech or the stereotypical IW/Beta using C/F will only get you destroyed in a set, as the women will wonder who this guy thinks he is since he looks like Screech. Furthermore, as some may or may not be aware DeAngelo has alot of connections in nightclubs equaling social proof and some degree of fame so his strategy of c/f would work best with who he is and his value to the women around him. So to me Ross Jeffries seduction techniques of leading the woman's imagination, eliciting her values, then anchoring her ideal mate to you and in the process getting her turned on (for you) would be among the best ways to get a woman, not using Cocky/Funny, at least
if your value is low. But, if I see IW looking guys getting women using c/f I'll be swayed to believe in it but thus far I haven't seen any evidence to indicate that it works with guys whose value is average or low. _________________ There's nothing admirable about mindlessly following one's biological imperatives. Last edited by Tollan on Tue Apr 25, 2006 9:04 pm; edited 1 time in total Back to top View user's profile Send private message RedSeraph Friend With Benefits
Joined: 30 Aug 2005 Posts: 1675 Location: Higher up, and further in PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 5:55 pm Post subject: Reply with quote Basically I started with Mystery Method because it seemed more concrete and easy to follow. Ross Jeffries' stuff seemed too... I dunno, controlling and demonic to me (although it was certainly fascinating, and I'm assuming deadly effective when done properly, but I never could do it). After the Mystery Method started working for me somewhat, I found that I was gaining confidence, but still banging my head on the wall to get the technique memorized and executed properly. That was when I discovered DeAngelo's c/f routines, and it was much more open ended. It worked great. I would say though that it only worked because of the order I took it in: -MM to learn some basics and to get out there for real world experience -Built confidence, albeit through canned/rehearsed methods, but they worked to some degree -Feared becoming a robot from the canned/reheasal science -Relaxed with cocky/funny Give that a shot, if you don't have confidence going out. Otherwise, if you really DO NOT NEED ANYONE, or for that matter, DO NOT VALUE YOUR SELF-WORTH ACCORDING TO HOW MUCH ATTENTION FROM WOMEN OR SEX YOU GET, then sure, you're ready for c/f. But your confidence needs to be seriously genuine, and rooted in something other than women. Mine was rooted in the fact that people (not just women, but all people) liked me when I was outgoing and confident. So I was outgoing and confident for its own sake, and it didn't need someone else's approval to feel good for me (even though it's true, I only discovered that being outgoing felt good when I realized that other people liked me when I was... but eventually this evolved to "I'm a social person. I like being social. Even when people don't accept me.") If you have that, cocky/funny works.
_________________ "Would you take the poster above you (RedSeraph) as a wingman?" nobody wrote: Yes, because in Soviet Russia, vagina fucks you. Also, spinning piledriver. Back to top View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Billydee Ne plus ultra
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 Posts: 2335 Location: Chicago, IL PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 10:52 pm Post subject: Reply with quote OK, it seems like we have a lot of disagreement on this thread, so take it for what it's worth. This is my opinion of videos that i've bit-torrented from DeAngelo & Mystery. I also read what "Style," had to say about Ross Jeffries, but I haven't seen Jeffries live, so take it for what it's worth......
David DeAngelo VERY solid. The big critique is that he's a big boring/dry to listen to, which is true. But his assets are ENORMOUS if you listen to everything he has to say. He assumes that you aren't completely socially retarted, and are at least average looking. He is NOT into flash, "game", ploys, tricks, or anything like that. His is VERY good about mastering, "inner game" such as self-confidence and the reasons guys act the way they do, and the way social psychology works. He preaches about the folly of trying to, "trade status for attention," and is a big proponent of having a, "stronger fame & reality". Personally, I think DeAngelo is a master at the, "strategic" game and should definitely be checked out. I haven't seen, "Double Your Dating," but my experience was excellent w/ the 10 CD set called, "Mastery with Women." If you bittorrent that, be patient and REALLY LISTEN for the first 3 CDs as he goes thru personal psychology stuff (not even talking about women). It really helps when he gets into the fun stuff.... Mystery I've seen only a few 20-30 minute clips of Mystery talk, so I can't really give a fair evaluation. I would need to meet him in person or see more video of him lecturing. But so far, I can say this: part of me thinks that Mystery is a genius, and part of me thinks he's a socially retarted clown/fool. Here are the GOOD things about Mystery, IMHO:
1) He's constructed and mapped out the sequence for seduction into 9 steps---actually 3 phases, and each phase has 3 steps. This is VERY helpful for guys to gauge how well theyr'e doing w/ a particular girl--how far along are they? What should they be doing & when, etc.... I've found this 9 step guide VERY VERY helopful as a measuring stick for myself as how I'm doing w/ women. 2) If you are a shy guy, he really helps you get our of your shell. He basically invented the whole, "Peacocking Method," to get attention, and he can teach you to basically be the center of attention in any room. Here are the BAD things about Mystery, IMHO: 1) He is a complete attention-whore. Anybody who is unwilling to kiss his ass he will ignore. 2) His peacocking method runs the risk of teaching guys to be, "clowns," and basically be in a group just to entertain people. That runs the risk of being seen like the town idiot/fool/joker. If you don't do it right, and you seem like you're trying TOO HARD, there is a VERY large risk that people will see that and instead of laughing WITH you, they will be laughing AT you. 3) He relies too much on, "gimicks," "tricks," "routines," "stories," etc. To me that just seems like trying too hard and being the entertainer instead of just being cool. The pro (listed above) is that it does help shy guys to get in there and start going b/c it gives them patterns to run. But what happens when a guy blanks out? What happens if his sense of humor is incongruent? What happens when he runs out of material? So, the criticism of Mystery is that he can be a, "quick fix" scheme, but can't deliver for the long haul.
Ross Jeffries I haven't seen this guy on video or live. I have read some of his stuff in print. But most of my impression is from Neil Strauss's book, The Game, so that will taint my perspective a bit. But from my view, that guy is a CREEPY, old, egotistical asshole. That hypnosis shit is basically party of the, "dark arts," (if there is a such thing), and I would stay away from that guy at any cost. I'll also throw in a bonus name for discussion: Tyler Druden He was a featured character in Stauss's book, The Game, and Strauss painted him as a social-robot, a sociopath, and a woman-terminator. Maybe this is fair if somebody were to study him up-close. But I've never met him, but I have seen him contibute his theories in the context of being a guest for David DeAngelo during a workshop. I think I also saw him contribute to a workshop hosted buy a guy that puts out a news letter from Canada
called, "Cliff's List". Anyway, TD is VERY good about lecturing on body language & tone. Sitting back in your chair all relaxed, approaching girls as you're, "walking away from them," using false time-constraints, etc. So, I would say in my mind, David DeAngelo is #1, and two very useful sub-sources would be Tyler Durden and Mystery (but both taken w/ a grain of salt). I would also say avoid Ross Jeffries like the fucking Black Plague. But that's just my opinion.... _________________ "Hindsight is GAY!!" -- RedSeraph.
Joined: 12 Oct 2005 Posts: 796 Location: NYC or Ann Arbor, MI PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 10:10 pm Post subject: Some Thoughts date: may 11th 2006 Reply with quote
Flame wrote: Some people will get this post. Most will not. Who gives a fuck. Im in a pensive mood. I know I havent been giving much advice lately. I guess its because I feel like weve uncovered everything we need to fuck girls its just a matter of whether the next guy in need of help is actually going to have the balls to implement the necessary changes in his life. This is the most important aspect of becoming more successful with women, but its not one that we as an internet community can fix. Its always a personal battle with ones own nerves/fears/social conditioning in the end. Ive been getting opened by a lot of girls recently. I get approached somewhat when I go out every weekend, since Im dressed pretty flashily or Im the loudest or most dynamic guy in most places but this is a different kind. Whenever I talk to girls, even when Im trying to just vibe and chill out, they open up to me and I know I can push it if I want to. Ive gotten more invitations to hang out/parties/get-togethers in the past few weeks than ever before. So I am compelled to go out even more, try to fit not just women but whole new social circles into my life. I feel a little confused and a little lost. I love it. Its like when I was first getting into the game, except this is yet another stage. Im not trying to brag. The guys on the board who know me RL know my skills. If you dont, I dont really give a fuck. But I want to make a point. A little over a year ago, I hung out with my small group of HS friends when I was in NYC and with my greek social circle when I was in Michigan. Thats it. I didnt really meet new people or, more frequently, I met new people but didnt leave enough of a powerful impression that they especially remembered me. They felt no need to add me to their lives I didnt hold any special value for them. This is my lifestyle now. When I meet people, especially women, I naturally invite them into my life and they in turn invite me into theirs. I feel like this is ultimately where we are all trying to be a place where we are so confident and sure of ourselves, that all of our strengths and good traits and valuable qualities shine NO MATTER WHAT; a place where we are so congruent with our ideal selves that women cannot help but be drawn to us, or at least intrigued A place where people WANT to know us more, and we
acknowledge them confidently, smoothly, charmingly, because we know what we have to offer. What is GENUINE? This is a question that lurks in the back of most peoples minds here. Because being OB or alpha or suave/cool/cocky/funny/pimp are NOT words we are used to associating with ourselves, when we try to assume these concepts into our personalities, we seem FAKE. False. Incongruent. When guys here tell each other to answer women in a certain way, act a specific way, do this, do that it can feel fake. But what really IS genuine? Is it how we are with our friends? If I were to talk to women the way I talk to my friends, Id be covering topics like Starcraft, pro gamers, CS, the hottest techno gizmos, hot cars, car prices, workout times. I would not be teasing them mercilessly, being sexual, kinoing, negging, whatever. I dont like talking about my feelings. I dont like connecting emotionally with lots of people. I am picky and reserved and intensely jealous of my emotions and who gets to see/experience/connect to them. So when I do all that with women and it gets me laid does that mean Im not being genuine? Im not true to myself? Maybe. But it seems to me that humans are complicated creatures and even within a normal guy like myself, there are many dimensions to what constitutes ME. To my parents, I try to be a faithful son, a good student, respectful. To my brother, I am the older mentor figure, I try to be fun but wise, ethical, instructive without being domineering. To my friends, I am chill, have a dirty mouth, am passionate about video games. With women, I am cocky, funny, am attracted and crush on women easily; a playboy with no regrets. In the end, these are all facets of me. I dont feel like Im betraying anything when I go from talking about school with my parents to arguing Kate Beckinsale vs. Scarlett Johanssen with my friends. Its all ME. Well, we all know that getting women interested requires games of some kind to be played by both parties. Theres flirting, theres teasing theres TESTING, so she can see if you are worth it. . So if I dont play these games am I being true to myself? Am I being... genuine? If thats the case, why is it that at this point, when girls, KNOWING how I am with women and the place they will have in my life, DONT get upset when I leave them. Or get bored. Or dont call back. Its because they EXPECT it of me. It has become a true part of me and so women, seeing that it truly IS a part of me now, dont get upset when I act according to my desires my nature. They know that when they get involved with me, it might end the next morning or maybe in the next month. They know I wont buy them flowers, but I WILL tell them I cant hang with them if they are fat, good thing youre just the perfect size right now. An inch more and I wouldnt be here. And they love it, because they know its ME.
Funny thing is when I was an IW, when I tried to break off unhealthy relationships with my IP, theyd always get pissy or bitch me out for being a bad friend. So is it more genuine to be a loyal IW or EVEN a faithful one-girl type of guy, when ultimately that is NOT you. Or is it better to be a cocky, teasing, noncommittal sonofabitch playboy right off the bat and let her understand that? Because well, in the end, were all playing games and selectively choosing which facades we allow others to view. I have two guys Id call my closest friends in the world. I can call them this, because they have seen the most of the numerous facades I have. They know me as the son, as the friend, as a brother. Theyve seen me with women and understand that. But with everyone else, Ill be fucking honest, they only get to see a handful (IF THAT) of aspects of me. And, in the end, thats what EVERYONE does. Women included. When a girl is IPing you, she is showing you that angelic, cute, perfect, vulnerable side of herself. Its not even a TRUTHFUL aspect of herself in most cases, its something shes able to project onto you because you have one-itis or whatever. When a girl is teasing me back, flirting with me, shit-testing me, she is also showing me a specific aspect of her character: the confident, Im-worth-it, hot, playful, SEXY side of her. I dont get to see the filial daughter she may be with her parents, or the submissive, quiet girl she may be with her bf or husband. I WANT to share more aspects of myself with women, especially the ones who intrigue me or impress me or get me plain aroused. And I want her to share herself with me. But sadly, I dont think this can be done without sex. If you ever want to have sex with a woman, I dont think it is possible for all the sharing to be done until youve done the deed and sealed a bargain. Because thats sort of what sex is: a pact between two people saying the introductory games are done, lets see where we can take this. Thats why I love sex. Yes, because it feels good. But also for the afterglow, when youre just lying there with this awesome girl and you know you can START to reveal more about yourself, because youve already literally gotten so naked with her. Because shes given herself to you, and you to her. Yes, not all sex is like this. But Im talking about sex as a result of solid game. Not attraction-based ONS or crazy horny sex. I mean solid game, solid attraction, connection, followed by sex. My kinda game. Or maybe youll just be her IW. I mean friend. Yeah, thats cool too. But you dont get sex. And you rarely ever get to see past one or two facades. I dont know if theres a moral to this post. I just felt like writing. Hopefully it made sense to someone, somewhere. Laterz. _________________ "Falling in love is one of life's pleasures." - Juggler
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 Posts: 2335 Location: Chicago, IL date: may 11th 2006 PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 4:46 pm Post subject: On The General Phases Of Dating-->Relationship Reply with quote
This is typically how I operate if I like a girl and see the early phases of dating/relationships. This is not intended as a guide to one night stands, booty calls, etc. Just dating & escalation to girls you've just met and landed a date with. This assumes we've flirted and bantered *a little*, and then at some point I get her out on a real date, or better yet just, "hanging out," with friends. (AKA, no fancy dinner or movie, etc. Just chilling out and grabbing a few beers, with her paying for part of the tab, etc.). 1) We hang out/go on one or two dates. There are some minor/flirty shit-tests to see if you can stand up to her, but nothing major. Steady escalation happens such that by the end of the 2nd date we are making out (usually in a car, her doorway, etc, but no sex). 2) By the 2nd or 3rd date, MAYBE by the 4th date at the outside (especially if one date was a lunch coffee date or something), we have at least oral sex, but most likely intercourse. If this hasn't happened yet by the 3rd of 4th date, I NEXT her. The first sex is nice/OK, simply because of the novelty, although not mind blowing. You're just happy it happened. Oddly enough, at this point the girl hasn't totally given up her power. She can just pull a post-sexing Anti-Slut-Defense and say she was drunk, it ws a mistake, etc. This typically is another shit test, but you can never really tell. 3) ASSUMING I like the girl and would want to potentially turn her into a GF, and if the sex HAS happened, I will STILL ration out the meetings to about once every week on average (every 5-10 days depending). This is the make-it break it time. This is when the shit-tests temporarily start to taper off. They have already given you a bit of power, and now want to get some back by getting you in a relationship. So, they start acting more compliant. Girls I want to drop I let go at this point, and girls I want to just booty-call I keep at this length/maintain only once every week or two and NEVER take them out on real dates. But if if the girl is potential GF material, I will return her calls pretty faithfully and I'm not an asshole, etc. But I'm not in a huge rush to get her over and have sex w/ her. I am a busy man. This is to keep her on her toes post-sexing, and to prevent me from immediately trying to make her my GF. I will continue to do this for another week or two, until the slam-dunk seal-the-deal. Which is phase #4 below.
4) At some point after the first sex you decide to promote a girl to GF status. This happens usually the next weekend date or so, the dam breaks and we just start fucking like rabbits. I'm talking like 3-4 times Friday night, another couple of times Saturday day, another 3-4 session Saturday night, a lazy Sunday morning w/ sex, etc. The nervous apprehension is over, and now is the new exploration period, where the sex is particularly hot & unpredictable. We start to see each other multiple times per week--2-4 times at first. I call this the, "sleep deprevation phase." The beauty of this phase is that there is NO DOUBT you are having sex again, but the newness/mystery of sex with a new person is there without the nervous apprehension. You just want to rip their clothes off. This is a critical time because this is where the dynamics of the sexual relationship is formed. There is no turning back for this girl. The shit-tests are at a DEAD STOP. She has decided that you are a strong enough man to REALLY want a relationship with you. She is past the Anti-Slut-Defenses and most likely in her mind is actively trying to convince you to be her boyfriend. If you are agressive & lead in bed, this is where you need to lay down the law. This is because she's most open to suggestions--sex in quasi-public spaces, against the wall, in the kitchen, road head, etc. You're setting the tone for the rest of the relationship. It is before the official bf/gf talk, but after she has had sex multiple times to the point where the sex isn't, "a fluke.". She has given her power away fully without landing the guy officially yet, so she's hoping to do a lot of stuff to make it happen and land the deal. 5) Depending on the health of the relationship, the sexual rigor in #4 goes on for quite some time, although at a slighty more sane pace because people still have school/work/life to deal with. At this point, you're officially BF/GF. So, the sex might be good, but only maybe one sessoin 4-6 days per week instead of crazy marathon sessions. MANY IW and wussy guys try to tie down phase #5 before phase #4, and that is their critical mistake. Phase #4 is when the females gives up power, while phase #5 is when the male gives up power. If you want any power at all in the relationship guys, Phase #4 must come first. You are rewarding her sex with a relationship, she is not rewarding your relatinoship with her sex. There IS a difference. DO NOT be the first to bring up a BF/GF relationship, even after you've had sex for the first time. I know the instinct might be strong to, "tie her down for future sex," but this is mistake. It only broadcasts to her that you don't think you WILL get sex next week from a different girl and therefore must tie her down into a relatinoship to guarantee future sex If she tries to bring up a serious BF/GF relationship BEFORE serious sexual relations happen, delay and tell her you're still undecided about her. Keep in mind, however, that "serious sexual relations," is a different definition depending on how old/experienced the person is. If you're her first or second potential boyfriends, etc. demanding sex is probably unrealistic. Just judge by the body language. Is she hanging all over you? Happy to kiss/make out w/ you? Etc. However, by the time you hit college/the real world, you should definitely be getting sex before you agree to any relationship SHE suggests.
Once the BF/GF relationship has been established (hopefully by HER suggesting it and winning YOU over, not the other way around), it will be smooth sailing for a little bit--aka the, "honeymoon," period. 6) Then the relationship settles down into a very normal predictable routine. At this point, the SHIT TESTS begin again. Do not blame a girl for giving you shit-tests after you've sealed-the-deal. You passed the initial shit-tests to the point where she decided to buy into you. But now she wants periodocially do a status check on you. Checking the tires, checking the oil, that 10,000 mile check-up, etc. It is in her nature to give you these tests. Fundamentally, she WANTS you to be strong, stand up for yourself, and call BS and not stand for it when you see it. So, she does little, "tests," to make sure all systems are, "go." She secretely WANTS you to stand up for yourself and keep in control. After all, if you can't stand up to HER, then that means SHE is the strong one in the relationship. And when outside forces come to threaten the two of you, SHE"LL be the one standing up for the two of you and protecting YOU instead of the other way around. If you keep yourselves together (she stays pleasant & physically attractive and cool; you keep passing the shit-tests, stay chill and keep yourself together physically/financially) and you really like each other's personalities, this is when you stay together. If not, then this is when you break up. ******** . _________________ "Hindsight is GAY!!" -- RedSeraph.
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 Posts: 2335 Location: Chicago, IL Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:10 pm date: may 11 2006
On Darwin, Negotiations, and the Role of IW.com RedSeraph wrote: Agree 101% with Flame. Furthermore, no, Rusulki, please do not. The reason the LT was invented in the first place was because there were too many women using men for their own purposes, and this was the male response to it. If you go into that too, you're perpetuating the cycle and making it worse. Like Flame says, as is my belief as well, when you realize that this is how the system works, LT is meant to bolster an IW's self-confidence to a point where he no longer allows himself to be used, thus reversing the process. Unfortunately, a common side-effect of the waking up to LT's reality is the sudden shock of misogyny, which hopefully and in most cases is, temporary.
Exactly. There is a certain number of us (Flame, The Fuhuor, me, Aussie, etc. who are not bitter. The problem with IWs is that they have low self-confidence and allow themselves to be used as doormats. The proper response is to simply grow a backbone. There is a big difference between having a backbone and being a complete jackass, however. Life Is Too Short... Rusulki wrote: - According to LT men's only interest in women should be sexual. Female friends cannot exist.
Not true. Female friends CAN exist, as long as one of the following conditions are true: 1) He is gay. 2) He has ZERO physical attraction to her.
3) He currently has a better prospect/somebody higher on his ladder in his life. I have many female friends. Female friends are great. They provide a different perspective on things, and are fun to have. What IW.com is trying to get guys to avoid is a situation when they are, "friends," with a girl they secretly (or not so secretly) have a crush on. In that case, it really isn't a, "friendship," that they have---it's a totally unsatisfying & unreturned one-sided romantic relationship. On paper they might look the same, but in real life, the difference is ASTOUNDING. She's getting what she wants-friendship, but no matter HOW GREAT the friendship part is, the relationship will be ultimately unfulfilling to the guy. This is the equivalent of a girl who is in a fuck-buddy or friends w/ benefits relationship with a guy she secretly has a big crush on. He's getting what he wants--sex, but no matter HOW GREAT the sex part is, the relationship will be ultimately unfulfilling to the girl. Whether you are a man or a woman, life is too short to waste on unfulfilling relationships. It's better to just maintain a friendly distance and move on with your life. Darwin Wasn't So Crazy After All Rusulki wrote: -Therefore, men use women for sex. -Women are whores who want men with money to fulfil whatever silly feminine whim we have. -Therefore, women use men for money and access to power. If you allow one side to use the other its only equitable that the other side be allowed to do the same. Where, if at all, is the difference?
The answer is: there is no difference. A woman who keeps a stable of IWs and/or is a golddigging whore is simply the female equivalent of a guy who is a, "player," and only uses women for sex. The female Intellectual Pimp/Ninja Bitch/Golddigger and the male, "player," are basically cartoon caricatures of all human's basic biological drivers. To put it in a more negative tone--both prey on the low self-confidence of individuals of the opposite sex to get what they want. In general, men are physically & biologically equipped to spread their seed, "far and wide," so employ a shotgun strategy in reproduction. Thus, men put a premium value on women who are attractive, healthy and young---key characteristics for being fertile & having a healthy baby, the more variety and the greater numbers of babies they can create, the better. In general, women are physically & biologically equipped to concentrate their efforts on a relatively smaller number of children--they have fewer kids, but they put more energy & time into each one to maximize the chance that the few she
DOES have will be successful. Thus, women put a premium on being more selective and trying to get a male who is generall healthy, but more importantly has the strength/dominance, etc. to provide saftey, resources, protection so that the few kids that she DOES have will have a good chance to grow up in a good enviornment. An excellent real-world manifestation of this is who Hollywood and the media consider, "sexy." For women, it's exclusively young attractive women who are of chid-bearing age. Once women hit menopause, they are no longer considered, "sexy." Why would they? They would be a caloric & genetic, "waste of time," for a guy to fuck them. On the contrary, it's entirely possible for older men in Hollywood to be considered, "sexy," as long as they exude power and/or confidence. Sean Connery, Robert Redford, Donald Trump, Pierce Brosnan, Clint Eastwood, Jack Nicholson, etc. So, there is a natural tension between the sexes because the reproductive strategies are slightly different. Most normal people display SOME degree of following the key biological drivers, but since we ARE human and not simply animals, most normal people also take into account stability, personality, etc. as well, at least to a certain degree. The IPs/golddiggers and the, "players," are more focused on the more basic/primal instinct than most of the population. Let's Make A Deal Because there is natural tension in terms of strategy, the mating dance often becomes a, "negotiation," between the parties. The more power the male has over the female (she likes him A LOT, while he could take her or leave her), the more likely it is that he will just use her for sex. This is because she feels that non-exclusive sex with that guy is better than exclusive sex with a lesser man (or with no man at all). Some women simply feel that it's better to be the mistress of a king rather than the wife of a peasant. Similarly, the more power the female has over the male, the more likely it is that she will just use him for favors/money/security. This is because he feels that her using him for money and paying a little bit of attention to him (while she runs around fucking outlaw bikers), is better than either getting no attention at all from her, or getting full attention from a less attractive woman. Some men would rather have a hot wife who treats him like shit & gives him a lousy sex life and uses his resources than to be married with a fat unattractive woman who fawns & dotes on him all of the time. Similarly, when at a negotiation table, the party who wants the deal the most is going to give their valuable commodity and give consessions away more quickly than the party that is less desperate. In general, it speaks to the relative self-confidence of the individual parties. For example, a confident party might NOT NEED that particular deal because they know that there are other bidders in the next room, etc., while the unconfident party might be thinking this deal is their only and/or last best hope. Even if a person is, "outgunned," in a particular negotiation, at least a confident party knows when to talk away from the table if things aren't going their way--while an unconfident party that is, "outgunned," will likely agree to some rediculously one-sided deal out of desperation.
In a healthy dating scenario, both parties want a friendship AND sex. But when the man has the power, he gets to have mostly sex w/ very little friendship, and when the woman is in power, she gets to have mostly friendship/security/money with very little sex. In the dating game, women with low self-confidence tend to give away THEIR bargaining power very quickly---sex, without demanding much in return (power/resources/stable relaitonship/support). They give away the bargaining power quickly because they feel that they HAVE to in order to keep the other party interested. Tragically, this doesn't work and only sends a signal to the male that THEY are in the power position. Thus, society in general tends to frown upon that behavior (call them sluts, etc.). Of course, unconfident men tend to do a similar thing. They give away THEIR bargaining power away very quickly--being very nice, protective, providing resources, shelter, etc. without having the balls to demand much in return (sex, feminine nuturing, support, etc.). Again, this never works and only sends a signal to the female that THEY are in the power position. However, although other men might frown on that behavior (calling the guy a wimp, pussy, etc.), society in general (PG-13 movies, etc.), and especially women, tend to encourage that behavior. They say to bring the girl flowers, buy her gifts, pour your feelings out towards her, etc. And whether they intend to mislead young men or not--the end result frequently is a guy turning into a complete and utter supplicating WIMP. Ironically, once the guy does this (bending over backwards trying to be the PERFECT boyfriend), he becomes less attractive to the woman. (See the negotiation section above for details). The IW.com Mission The goal of IW.com is to correct the perception of guys who followed the PG-13 line of thinking too much and subsequently got slammed when it came to women. They were being, "too nice," etc. So, one central tenant of IW.com is to correct the lexicon. When a girl says she wants a, "nice guy," she DOES NOT mean, "doormat who won't stand up for himself." She means a guy w/ a backbone, but who isn't necessarily a raging asshole either. To paraphrase from RedSeraph, we're not advocating guys to treat women poorly, we're just advocating guys to stop putting them on a pedestal. Another way to think of IW.com is the male equivalent of a female website that would be trying to rehabilitate women who are sluts who have sex with tons of guys hoping to get a relationship, only to be cheated on and screwed over again and again. That (hypothetical) female equivalent website would be saying: "Stop being a slut. Have some self respect. That's not to say you should become a complete PRUDE or anything, but fix yourself up to increase your value. Get some self-confidence so you have INTERNAL value, and the next time a guy wants to fuck you, make sure you're getting your end of the bargain as well." _________________ "Hindsight is GAY!!" -- RedSeraph.
Notes for the Ladies First of all, why are women coming here asking for advice? Don't you have a real life IW somewhere to do that for you? Is it necessary to come here asking stupid question that anyone with common sense should know the answer to? Here are some easy ones pre-answered for you: Q. How do I get a guy to kiss me? # Ask him to. # Tell him to. # Just kiss him, stupid. # Get rid of him because this shouldn't be an issue.
Q. How do I know if guy likes me? A. He's talking to you and actually takes interest in anything you say or do. Q. How do I reject a guy? A. As if you don't have a fucking clue? Tell him you just want to be friends. Tell him to fuck off. Tell him you're not interested. Try the God damned truth. Ladies, you should not need someone to tell you these things. # You should not be looking for adivice for yourselves here. # If you want to know how to help an IW stop being one, ask. # If you want to understand the LT, ask. # If you want to help dudes around here recover from being IWs or help them get laid, by alll means go ahead. # If you want to contribute in a way that is usefull, please do.
For Christ's sake don't ask questions about your own life.
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 2364 Location: Chicago, IL date: may 17th 2006 Serpent wrote: So you wouldn't find throwing shit at someone's head more exciting than doing a NEXT? -_- Get chekced. Has anyone actually ever had their IW makeout with them/hump them because of a persistant NEXT? Razz
No, get YOUR head checked. Look, we aren't in disagreement here. Many women, especially the hot drama-queens WANT conflict and drama. They fuck the outlaw-biker for purposes of drama. But then she runs off to the IW for the stability & support. Ironically enough, the IW is usually very calm & rational, and that's one of the characteristics that makes him un-sexy. The IW is un-threatening, not dangerous, calm & predictable. Docile. However, when she isn't fucking an OB, she returns to the IW companion and gets bored. She wants DRAMA in her life, typically for entertainment purposes. This is when the IP starts flirting with the IW shamelessly. She creates sexual tension as a teasing game. Basically, she playfully opens her WINDOW to him. (See, "The Window Corollary," for details). On a subconscious level, she is probably attracted to the IW, at least to some extent (otherwise, why would they be hanging out so much? At one time she wanted to fuck him, but the IW put HIMSELF on the friend's ladder because of his own actions). But the IW has no idea how to climb through her open window, has no idea how to be confident & capitolize on her attraction, etc. So, he finds himself in IW territory, and so now she flirts with him, but in only a playful/flirty manner. Maybe there's a 2% chance that if he gets his act together and grow a pair of balls, this is where he can make a ladder jump. But this is unlikely. It's more likely that the IW is unconfident and is unsure what to do with this sexual attention. So, he fumbles about trying to respond while the IP amuses herself watching the guy fumble. She creates tension, and watches as the IW is unable to handle & overreact/compensate to the drama. Instead, what I suggest is that if you are an IW, and the IP is playing with you for drama sake, she is flirting/toying with you, etc. just DON'T RESPOND. Don't make the PG-13
speech. Don't over-react in frustration and turn OB and throw a glass past her head. Just PHASE HER OUT. Pay more attention to other people. Don't IGNORE her, becasue she would actually see that as drama and play it up in her head. Instead, just say, "hi," chat with her a bit like she's one of many different friends, and then MOVE ON. This will drive her nuts. NEXTing in this way will CREATE drama in her head, because she will be scrambling to think what can she do to grab your attention? First she might try to freeze you out. Then she might try to play the jealousy card by flirting with another guy. But after awhile, after those games don't work, she will either MOVE ON to a new IW who will fall for her games, or she will be FORCED to up the ante, and basically throw herself at you. I'm telling you, don't doubt the validity of this dynamic. The concept is ancient, and it is well-known.
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 Posts: 2451 Location: Chicago, IL PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 6:46 pm Post subject: Common Shit-Tests Reply with quote In this thread we will discuss the most common shit-tests & obsticales that women put up, and how to deal with them. I'll go first, as I'm not sure how to react to this particular scenario: You are hanging out w/ an attractive woman that you want. Perhaps you two are alone, or perhaps there are more women (or gay men) in the group. The girl then proceeds to either check out/blatantly say that some 3rd other guy is, "hot/sexy," etc. Sometimes if she's with other women or gay men they may just use the term hypothetically, such as, "Let's go to XYZ bar tonight. That's where all the cute/hot guys are."
Basically, it's a major insult to you, the guy standing there. They are totally emasculating you by implying that you are NOT cute/hot enough to meet their needs. Otherwise, they'd be more focused on your presence rather than focusing on finding/checking out other, "hot," guys. How is one supposed to react to that? Is it game-set-match at that point as they see you as a non-sexual object? Or can you turn it around? Directly calling them out on it, ("hey, what about ME!?") seems a bit whiny and needy. But letting it pass also doesn't seem like the smart idea either. I encountered this a few weeks ago, and I didn't say anything directly to their comment, but I just simply ejected from the situation instead of trying to rehab it. I could see by sticking around that night whilst they, "check out all the cute boys," would only entrench my status among them as a girlfriend w/ a penis. Any other suggestions?
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Joined: 12 Oct 2005 Posts: 890 Location: NYC or Ann Arbor, MI PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 8:22 pm Post subject: "Cool. What about the chicks?" Reply with quote
EASIEST and most EFFECTIVE way of owning shit-tests is to just ignore it. I don't mean like... act like you are offended and that you are blatantly trying to ignore it. Just relax, take it in stride, like you KNOW what they are doing and it is AMUSING to you. I have a stockpile of c/f lines and all that stuff to respond to shit-tests but as time goes on, I've found it is just EASIER to just act normal and do what YOU want. Because you are now IN THE KNOW and you are WISE to the social dynamics underlying the interactions, you can take such statements for what they are worth: empty words/gestures meant to gauge your reaction. If I'm with a group of female friends and they are like "lets go check out xyz bar cuz that's where all the cute guys are" (and this is VERY common, because it is IMPORTANT for girls in packs to feel like they are free, in control, and ready to shut down any guy -> this makes them feel hard-to-get and HIGH status), I just LAUGH it off. Like I UNDERSTAND their needs and I'm happy as long as MY needs are met. Just totally reframe that bullshit. "Oh, lets go to this bar cuz thats where all the cute guys are." -> "Oh please, you know you guys are just gonna hang around by the wall and wait for random dudes to approach you. Tell you what, I'll introduce you to the guys you want as long as you protect me from the skank hos, okay?" -> "Yes.. cute guys.. that's cool. But what about the CHICKS. I'm gonna need something to amuse myself with while you guys are getting hit on by shady guys." -> "Fine... I'll go.. but go get dressed up. I'm expecting those tits to get me a buncha free drinks tonight." The point is that you KNOW what this shit is, so just take it for what it's worth. I mean.. isn't it FUNNY, once you understand what is REALLY going on? Just be natural. You should be happy as long as you get yours. _________________ "Falling in love is one of life's pleasures." - Juggler "I don't care how hot she is... Some guy,
somewhere, right now, is fucking tired of her shit." - Philos
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So, thru the eyes, love attains the heart For the eyes are the scouts of the heart And the eyes go reconnoitering for What it would please the heart to possess. And when they are in full accord, firm All in one resolve, at that time, Perfect love is born from what the eyes Have made welcome to the heart.
12th century troubadours song JOSEPH CAMPBELL, THE POWER OF MYTH
Just one look, thats all it took.

DORIS TROY, 1956
Conversations Without Words

Most of us are slightly afraid as well as somewhat excited in settings where social interaction is expected and required. So, most people do not sit or stand in an open posture. But, during courtship, the more open the other persons posture is, the more open that person is to you and your advances. OPEN AND CLOSED If youre wide open while sitting, your posture is similar to Abe Lincolns in the Lincoln Memorial. Your feet are flat on the floor. Your hands are relaxed, not clenching anything. And, youre not holding a drink in front of yourself as a symbolic barrier. While standing, youre open when your hands are not in your pockets. You are not leaning against anything. Your feet are flat on the floor. And, your drink is not in front of you.
OPEN AND CLOSED When the persons posture is open, hes open to you, your ideas, and possibly your advances. In the left photo, notice that although hes smiling, he is gripping his knee tightly indicating hes controlling himself. Also notice the beer can is held high in front as a barrier. In the right picture, both feet are f irmly planted on the ground indicating he is sincere. Notice that his arms are down and that his hands are open and relaxed, signs of openness and sincerity. His head is slightly tilted and hes leaning a bit forward. Both indicate interest.
MIRROR, MIRROR This topic applies to a man approaching and interacting with a woman just as it obviously applies the other way round. In body language jargon, its called mirroring. If youre in the same emotional place as the other person, your posture is the mirror image theirs. It also can mean that you are interested in each other.
MIRRORING These people are sitting in almost exactly the same position, so they are about in the same place emotionally. But, notice shes holding onto her shin and does not have her foot completely flat on the floor. The man must take his time until shes more open and relaxed.
When you notice the other person is standing or sitting in about the same manner as you are, he, or she, is in about the same emotional place. During courtship, subconsciously, all of us tend to adopt the same posture as the person we are interested in. When talking with someone we are attracted to, we usually mirror them. More fascinating, we often mirror somebody we are interested even if that person is across the room and we are stuck talking with a bore! One more time. You cannot not communicate. RAISE YOUR AWARENESS Pay attention when you are at a party. Lots of people always gather in the kitchen. Look around. Notice if anyone is mirroring another persons body language. They may be interested in each other, then again, they could simply be in the same emotional state. Look for other signals to confirm or deny the interest you suspect. At the same time, consciously adopt the body language of the person youd like to meet and talk with.
FIRST CONVERSATION SIGNALS Men, pay attention to all the ways she communicates during the first few minutes as you talk with her. Women, let him know what you want. Nearly all of these signals apply to both men and women. The ones that apply only to women are indicated by italics.
KEEP TALKING MOVE ON Alert, energetic Tense, restless Pupils dilated Normal or small pupils Gradually opens posture Posture remains closed Lowers drink Keeps drink high Touches self gently Grips or pinches self Caresses objects Squeezes, taps objects Crosses and uncrosses legs Legs remain crossed Flashes of palm Back of hand gestures Crossed legs steady Swings crossed legs Dangles shoe on toe Keeps shoe on Hands never touch face Touches face Touches you any reason Never touches you Feet firmly on floor Feet on edges or toes Loosens anything Tightens anything Leans forward Leans away Steady hands, feet Tapping, drumming
ALERT, ENERGETIC Ready for action with you. Contrast with relaxed, casual postures when sitting or standing. Especially positive and revealing when the person shifts from casual to alert during the conversation. GRADUALLY OPENS POSTURE In social settings, most of us start out in a closed, defensive posture because were a bit apprehensive. A closed posture feels safe. When the person you are talking with shifts to a more open posture, it signifies trust and comfort. That person is, literally, opening up to you and what you have to offer. LOWERS DRINK Most people in social settings hold a drink in front of themselves as a barrier. When the person you are talking with lowers his, or her, drink, the barrier between you is coming down. As always, it is most effective if you lower your drink first. The other person often follows your lead.
CARESSES OBJECTS If done sensually, it usually means the person wants to caress you or wants you to caress them.
CARESSING A GLASS The most common object fondled is a drink. Women tend to stroke the glass up and down. Men usually run a f inger around the lip. The symbolism is obvious.
Caution! Occasionally, when a woman touches something sensitively, it can be a subtle signal for reassurance. Subconsciously, she may want you to gently reassure her. You may be too close physically or youre talking about a topic that makes her anxious. Move back and change the subject if you read this gesture as nervousness. TOUCHES HERSELF If done in a gentle, sensuous manner it means the same as caressing an objectthe person wants to touch you or wants you to touch them. However, this can also be an attempt at reassuring ones self. It depends on everything that came before. The same caution as above applies.
FLASHES OF PALM She shows you the palm of her hand during conversation in brief flashes. She is making herself submissive and vulnerable. One interpretation is, My hands are up. I surrender. Another way of seeing it, I have no weapon. I wont hurt you.
PALM FLASH Women only. She shows you the palm of her hand during conversation while checking her ear ring or adjusting her hair or gesturing with her hands. This signal is hard to see because it is so brief and it does not appear to be flirting. Reliable if you can notice it. Focus your awareness on looking for palm flashes ahead of time and youll be able to see it or the opposite gesture, described in the photo below.
BACK OF HAND Women only. The exact opposite of a palm flash. One interpretation is See my wedding ring? Im not interested. Another is This is not a f ist, yet. Beat it! Often disguised, as in the photo.
CROSSES AND UNCROSSES LEGS Women only. When sitting with a skirt on, shes flashing a bit of thigh to entice you. When sitting with pants on, she is subconsciously doing the same thing. However, when standing, she is probably just be trying to get comfortable or it may indicate shes excited and ready to go.
DANGLES SHOE ON TOE Women only. When sitting with her legs crossed, she wiggles her heel out of the shoe, then lets the shoe dangle on her toes. Opening up and loosening up to you. Its a subconscious f irst step in disrobing.
STEADY HANDS, FEET, LEGS Stable means relaxed, not reluctant or hesitant. When feeling negative emotions, both men and women fidget, tap or drum something. As mentioned, females are taught to sit still. Consider that when interpreting a womans wiggling feet. LOOSENS ANYTHING Loosening up to you. It can be unbuttoning, unzipping or untying. A man loosens his tie for the same reason that a women lets her shoe dangle on her toes. Its symbolic disrobing. LEANS FORWARD This simple gesture says all of this: You have my attention. I want to hear what you have to say. I want to see you more clearly. I want to be closer to you. Very powerful and very reliable.
SHE TOUCHES YOU ANY REASON Touching is possession or to verify what one sees. When she touches you, even accidentally shes interested. Men, keep your hands to yourself until she touches you. Attention Men! No matter where, when or how a woman touches you, it is a strong signal of interest. Women often accidentally touch a man they are interested in as they make their way to the bar or rest room. Caution! Women who are Rapo players touch men early and often. Men who touch women before the women touch them are probably manipulators and liars, as mentioned. HANDS NEVER TOUCH FACE As mentioned, when someone touches himself above the neck, it usually means hes lying or he doesnt believe what you are saying. FEET FIRMLY ON FLOOR Feet that are solidly grounded mean the person is taking a stand, is not reluctant or hesitant. However, feet that are not solidly grounded usually mean trouble ahead. COMING FROM THE SAME PLACE People who are in different emotional states dont enjoy talking with each other. For example, if you are bold and confident and Im nervous, I wont be able to relax and be pleasant, thus you wont enjoy talking with me. The End. So, you must appear to be in about the same place as the person you are attempting to court. Men, if her posture is open, thats good. Match her posture and remain open as you talk. If her posture is closed, match her posture, then as you are conversing, gradually open up, one small step at a time. If she doesnt follow your first few shifts toward openness, stop. Shes not ready or is not interested. When there are good vibrations between the two of you, adapt you posture to match hers and wait a few more minutes before trying to slowly open up again. While you are slowly moving from a closed position to an open position, she has time to realize that you are not dangerous and could be interesting.
Only after she has discovered (1) that you are safe and (2) interesting, can she find you attractive.
MOVE FROM CLOSED TO OPEN This series of photos show you what to do if the other person is not in an open posture. Although this example shows a man going f irst and becoming vulnerable, women can do the same thing. First adjust your stance so that your posture approximates hers. As you talk, gradually and carefully shift your posture to a more open position, one step at a time. Subconsciously, the other person often follows your lead and opens up to
you because you made yourself vulnerable f irst. In the top photo, the man has adopted the same posture as the woman. In the middle photo, he has moved from completely closed to semi-open by uncrossing his arms and putting his hands in his pockets. In the bottom photo, he has become completely vulnerable by putting his hands behind himself. She has mirrored his posture.
When women adopt this position, it causes their breasts to protrude slightly, which commands the mans attention. Also, when women stand in this position, they appear to be slightly submissive, thus safe.
FROM CLOSED TO OPEN AND BEYOND In this sequence of photos , you can see many signs of interest. Overall, as the two are talking, the woman moves from a closed posture to an open posture. Study the photos carefully and you can notice that the man mirrors her actions. The encounter begins with her arms crossed and with her ankles locked under the chair. As the conversation continues, she unlocks her ankles and puts her feet
flat on the floor, sits up and leans toward the man. Next she uncrosses her arms. Notice that her hands are open and relaxed as she leans even closer. In the last photo, she is touching herself gently in a sensuous way.
At the end of the first conversation, many subtle and indirect signals have been exchanged. However, during Further Conversations Without Words, the next chapter, more nonverbal signals are exchanged. Some of them will still be subtle. Many will be somewhat obvious. But a few will be blatant!
YuckFou Initiate of the Greater Mysteries
Joined: 14 May 2006 Posts: 65
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 6:57 pm Post subject: yeah, the old guy is a smooth criminal alright. She likes you: Eye contact longer than normal Looks down after eye contact Straightens her figure Repositions, breasts towards you Plays with hair of opens clothing Squeezes her eyes when she looks at you She hates you: Taps with fingers Short eyecontact Looks away, not down Doesn't change position or figure Holds glas in front of her Closes up (arms in front of her, or closes jacket) _________________ Something new *16-5 > gained Cuddle Bitch status. -_*16-5 > gained Crank Yanker status -_*17-5 > gained Initiate of the Lesser Mysteries status -_*17-5 > gained Answer Holder status -_-
Reply with quote
Aussie Friend With Benefits
Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 1476
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 8:57 pm Post subject: Reply with quote Enjoy, but don't get too caught up in looking for signs the whole time or you'll end up lacking in the other important areas of pickup. Practice a little each time and eventually it will become subconcious. _________________ /nosig
RedSeraph Ne plus ultra
Joined: 30 Aug 2005 Posts: 2030 Location: Exiled from Beardsville.......*CRY*SOB* Face: Ancient Mariner's PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 5:59 am Post subject: Reply with quote Aussie wrote: Enjoy, but don't get too caught up in looking for signs the whole time or you'll end up lacking in the other important areas of pickup. Practice a little each time and eventually it will become subconcious. Mm, true. I'd still recommend spending one weekend out on the town with the specific intention of JUST studying this and focusing on it. Like, a cram session. Keep in mind that because this will be your sole focus, you WILL strike out all night long. But that's fine, the goal of the night is to know your body language, not to come home with something to poke on. After an all-weekend experience binge, you should have it pretty well internalized and not have to worry about it next time. Hell I should do this myself, I need work on this subject... _________________ <-Member of the AAA Fan Club. And I'm not just a member... I'm also the president.... because I'm the only member... Crying or Very sad "Would you take the poster above you (RedSeraph) as a wingman?" nobody wrote:
Billydee The BD Triangle
this is a little project that RedSeraph and I have been working on behind the scenes. I came up with the idea of the triangle and RS did all of the graphic design work. He did an AWESOME JOB!!
The graphic above represents in my mind the different phases of psychology that guys go though when dealing with women. As I've stated many times before, I believe that even though IWs and OBs BEHAVE in totally different ways, their behavior is rooted in the same underlying cause--insecurity and a lack of self-confidence when it comes to women. The IW attempts to compensate by being OVERLY NICE. The OutlawBiker is typically a formerly frustrated guy who was an IW and decided to just do the cartoon POLAR opposite of the IW. I want to stress at this point that although the OB is represented as a motor-cycle guy, a person's IW, "Average Joe Beta Male," "Alpha Male," or OB status has VERY LITTLE to do with his actual appearence. A guy might be able to fool a woman for a little while by dressing a certain way, but eventually his TRUE nature (as it comes to confidence w/ women) will eventually display itself. It's all about the mentality & the attitude. You can have bikers that are genuine solid guys, (the Average Joes), alpha males that are just solid t-shirt and jeans guys, you can even have IWs dressed in biker outfits. You can have alpha males that are preppy & clean cut as depicted, you can have alpha males that are potheads, that are leather-clad bikers, that are cowboys, etc. I guess another way you
could think about is the bottom scale is how well-adjusted you are towards your mentality towards women, and the vertical scale is your status within your particular social circle. All guys start somewhere along the X-axis. If they are well-adjusted, they will be in the center. But if a person is an IW or an OB from the outset, things need to change. IWs figure this out pretty quickly (hopefully), and are prone to over-compensating and skewing WAY over to the OB side. But you see that being an extreme OB or extreme IW limits how high vertically you can go. Ultimately, if a guy wants to attain TRUE Alpha status, he must re-center his attitudes. So, skewing over the the OB side is actually more of a detour. Rarely, a natural born OB (typically abused, from a broken home, etc.) will, "see the errors of his ways." That's because at least he's getting sex. Since sex is the key male biological driver, he might not stop to think about the other side of the equation--stability, etc. This is the guy who has broken homes, many ex-wives, girls who are needy and unstable and are willing to get smacked around, many babies and their mothers chasing them around for child-support. Sometimes these OB guys get sick of the chaos and think to themselves that something isn't right--why can't he hold steady relationships w/ his women and/or his kids? These are the things that might drive OBs to change.
The most direct route to become an Alpha Male is to just go straight for the Alpha male peak (work on both "inner game," that provides the horizongal balance and "outer game" that increases your score vertically at the same time), or possibly slide over to the "average joe," slot first, and then start climbing the social ladder. (work on "inner game" first to get balanced, then work on "outer game," to advance vertically. It's important to note that most guys never reach TRUE alpha-male status. There will ALWAYS be somebody better than you at getting women, etc. But the important part is the journey, not necessarily the destination. Simply by IWs becoming an, "Average Joe," beta-male might be an accomplishment enough. Because at least "Average Joes," get laid and have girlfriends occasionally. Average Joes might never reach, "Alpha Male" status, but being higher up the center white arrow WILL make his life easier b/c he'll be working less for the same woman, or be getting better women for the same effort. A few other quick points: The blue by the IW was meant to depict, "too cold." This is an asexual guy. The red by the OB was meant to depict, "too hot/toohothead." The green by the alpha was depicted to show that as the right path to take. Also, notice that each guy is actually the SAME GUY, just in different depictions. This is to illustrate the point that people CAN change their behavior & status--at least to a certain degree relative to their old-self. Also, notice the women's reactions in the cartoons. The woman w/ the IW is confused and uncomfortable. This is the, "unintentional IP." A girl who genuinely wants to be, "friends," with the IW and nothing more. She has not lead him on and she either has no clue that he likes her, or she thinks that she's alread made it plenty clear that it will
NEVER happen and she fools herself into thinking that he's OK with with that. We could also have probably put another, more sinister looking Ninja-Bitch there as well, but we didn't want to clutter the graphic. The woman near the Average Joe beta guy is kinda there, but her attentnion is also on another guy. But her body language looks as if if the Average Joe were simply assert himself a bit, hold his beer in a more relaxed manner, and approach/talk to her, that SHE'd be talking to HIM instead of the other guy (hence the upward journey depicted by the white arrow). The woman by the OB is a spineless unconfident drama-queen. Notice that the OB only has one girl as well. Most women who are well-adjusted can recognize OB behavior and know that it is not alpha-male. Once they figure it out, they move away from the OB and try to find an, "Average Joe" as high up in the confidence vertical scale as they can possibly get. Notice the yin-yang nature of the IW and the OB. Ideally, a woman will spend her time looking for a balanced guy and always try to top out her Ladder by reaching for the Alpha-males that she can find. But if she fails at this and winds up w/ the OB, she typically then ropes an equivalent IW into her life to give her the stability that she craves. If she has nothing but IWs in her life, she runs off to fuck an OB to meet her sexual needs. But ideally, she would get fullfilled both desires in ONE man--the Alpha Male.
-----------Comments mastablast2001 Loquacious Spider-Monkey
Joined: 18 Mar 2003 Posts: 97 Location: none PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 9:32 am Post subject: Alpha Theory Reply with quote Someone recently posted a diagram showcasing the AFC, the OB and the Alpha Male on a triangular diagram showcasing self confidence versus compensational behavior. The OB was compensating for his own insecurities with himself and women by being OBish, trying to communicate that he was bad and didnt need anything from anyone. The AFC was compensating by being overly nice and submissive, trying to give the girl good things, and win her affection. The Alpha was just chilling there, not trying to influence anyone with his behavior. He stood there confidently seeing what other people could bring to him.
Seeing this has really changed my perception behind a lot of personalities and social interactions in my real life and i can understand what compensation is, and who the "true alpha's" are. But, is this 100% true? Do you think that this behavior is entirely compensational? Do women see it as such? _________________ LT is true ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joined: 30 Aug 2005 Posts: 2030 Location: Exiled from Beardsville.......*CRY*SOB* Face: Ancient Mariner's PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 9:49 am Post subject: Reply with quote I think what's more important is for you to realize that most of this stuff is subconscious in a girl's eyes. They don't usually say "Hm, this guy's being really distant... I think that means that he's hiding an insecurity, and perhaps compensating for a lack of something inside." Instead their thought process is much more simpler than that, "Hm, this guy's being distant..." and it stops there. Maybe they get curious. Maybe there's a mystique about him they feel. Read more about "state based creatures" kinda stuff (search this forum for "state based"), that's an accurate depiction of what happens, but not what they think. Because most of the time, they aren't conscious of what they think, they don't rationalize or reason it out like we do. Nothin' wrong with that as an approach or a living mechanism, just realize that it's not the same terms you think of things in. Therefore, you shouldn't worry about how she's going to process it, because you can't even comprehend her process anyway, so you're gonna break your back trying to figure it out. Very Happy Save yourself some trouble and just follow the observed model of what actually happens, and go with that flow, don't question the how and why on their end.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------Billydee Ne plus ultra
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 Posts: 2431 Location: Chicago, IL PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 10:55 am Post subject: Reply with quote RedSeraph wrote: Illmatic wrote: I'm beginning to beleive it's just IWs, OBs and regular guys. The term alpha was made up by regular guys to make themselves feel better. Mmm.... kinda disagree. I see IWs, I see OBs, and I see regular guys who have no girl problems. But then I see other guys who have girl advantages, such as constantly girls are always saying "OMG he's sooo hot" or "sooo cute" or "soooo cool" and just always having girls crush on him. That's alpha, that's distinct from regular guy, yet not OB.
Quoted for truth. Regular guys get their fair share of ass. Occasionally they'll get cute girls, and they know that one day they won't have a problem getting a cute girl to settle down with. But regular guys DO have a hard time pulling ass at will/whenever they want. Think in baseball terms. OK/average baseball players have an OK batting average and will get the occasional home-run. But the REAL superstars either have stellar batting averages, and/or even CALL their home-run shots before they happen. That's the difference between the average-guy and the alpha-male. Also realize that this is NOT a black & white distinction. The whole, "alpha male vs. beta male," is fluid depending on the circumstance. If you put me in group A, maybe I'll be the alpha male relative to that group, but if you put me in group B, maybe I'll be a beta male b/c there other guys who are more alpha than I am in that group. Over time, however, guys can improve or falter on the triangle scale. Sometimes they're well balanced but not feeling so hot--then they're the bottom, "average joe." Sometimes they feel insecure and might slide to one end of the IW/OB spectrum. But sometimes you're firing well on all levels and you are at your peak performance and are basically the alpha-male. Heck, changes can EVEN happen on an hourly/daily/weekly basis. I call them, "hot streaks & cold streaks." Sometimes a guy is feeling good/confident (maybe he just lost 10 lbs or got a hair-cut, maybe he just got a promotion at work, maybe he's just in a good/funny mood), and will attract women more easily. Sometimes he just feels like SHIT or maybe he's even trying too hard to get women & flames out. No matter how good your overall game is, everybody experiences, "hot & cold" streaks. Keep in mind that's RELATIVE to what their normal level is, so a studly alpha-male's, "cold streak," might actually look like a more nerdy IW's, "hot streak."
"attractive girl" syndrome. That does not mean you are 'hot', but does mean that you got the right combination of looks and personality for guys to like you and want to get to know you before they date you. Congratulations, you might be able to ward off Outlaw Bikers(Haha, as if you wanted to ) As an 'attractive girl', you will A) start talking to guys you ARE attracted to B) lose all your IW friends and watch as the vacuum is quickly filled by more, poor unenlightened IWs. It will happen. YOU CANNOT get rid of them, unless you become significantly less attractive. Bitchiness won't really work C) Get a boyfriend who you actually CANT complain about, and you will feel less likely to persue tons of friendships D) Hang out with all the girls. There is some decent girls around. But they are few and far between. If you choose B, then you choose wrong.
by :Themuz Title :Ne plus ultra Joined: 03 Jan 2005 Posts : 4111 Date : 05 Oct 2005 Alpha males get to fuck the best babes. The best babes (along with the best guys, the alpha males) reproduce together. Their offspring is superior in intelect, strength, appearance, etc. And they survive longer to reproduce even more, as well as get more opportunities to do such (more options open to them). Now. The alpha males don't give too much of a shit if their woman stays with them because they have a whole harem to choose from. The women get screwed over and wind up sticking with a beta male to raise the child. Beta male may or may not know the child is his. It doesn't matter, he is going to raise the child and feel like he got what he wanted the woman. Violence nor physical dominance matters MUCH in this scenario (unless it is what brings success for the male). It is whoever is wanted the most (read: most successful, or at least appearing to have the potential to be the most successful) that gets the poon. If the guy that is wanted the most (the most successful guy) is a billionaire, then he gets the most poon. If it is a guy who used his wits to make a better weapon to kill lions with, as well as have the strength and balls to use it effectively, then that guy gets the most poon. He occupies his time fucking women and killing lions (or making billions of dollars), and the beta males in the alpha's social circle emulate him and grab whatever is the best they can get. Which is usually a chick who has slept with the alpha. And no girl wants a social outcast or idiot. That is just basic - you can't be as successful if you suck at socializing. Beta male knows (perhaps not at the front of his active thoughts, but deep down) he is inferior (lower self-esteem) and settles for something comfortable (an easy way to get his genes to survive, something like a stable monogamous relationship). Which is natural for him. Alpha male, in the same way, knows he is superior. No one will question him. So he does what he wants - which is usually lots of women and whatever makes him superior to the betas. Which is natural for him.
Dlusion Chingon
Joined: 01 Oct 2003 Posts: 170 Location: Tehran,Iran
Loyalty: A lot of people have asked about the significant others of friends and if they are special cases of the Ladder. They are not. These are not your friends. These are virtual friends. For example, a friend of mine is fucking a girl. I like her, she's great, we get along, etc... But when they break up she is dead to me. Or if the friend leaves the picture the normal rules of the Ladder apply. So are we really friends? Of course not. We are conditional friends. This does not affect where she goes on the Ladder. Think of it like this: the Ladder is a rating system, and I'll rate her along with everyone else based on how much I would like to fuck them. A note for guys: if your friends girl offers you a piece you should hit that shit, because he shouldn't be laying up with no ho. Ideally you should tape it also, because most guys will believe the person they're fucking.
------------------------------------------------------------Dlusion: hes a cool guy, we're pretty good friends he knows what i would of done if his girlfriend gave me a shot, i had made it clear to him, its not that i really want this girl or anything, or that i dont want him to spend time with a long term relationship but SHE came on to me, she told me she was hot and told me to pull over and then launched herself at me. she was also the reason he wanted to fight with some people, and thats not cool, in ladder terms, theres a huge disparcity and she pretty much does what she wants. i took her home and she made a move on me, its not like i tricked her into anything
Rusulki: Yeah, sometimes my friend's bf's do the flirting with me and you know what, I don't fuck them out of some ridiculous misguided sense of morality. If I were to ever fuck one of them, I'd at least do everyone involved the favor of being honest about my reasons. Lying to yourself is totally not OB.
Aussie: Hehe interesting thread with interesting responses. Here are some real life examples I've seen. My little brother (OB) fucked his three best mates girlfriends over the course of a few months. They hated the fuck out of him for quite a while and drifted apart, but now they'll all best mates again and the girls aren't to be seen. The lesson here is to expect hostility but he'll get over it. Bros before hoes. In other words, you should get off easier than her as all you really did was show him that she's a cheater. My first post here was about some hairdresser skank I was seeing. My brother would flirt with her and eventually she went for my brother while I was in the same house. While I was a little shitty that she did it, I wasn't pissed at him because I was able to rationalise it that he was able to bring out the true side of her. I'd rather she go for my brother than some guy who I don't even know because my brother told me about it straight away. In summary, it depends on your mate and how he rationalises things in his mind. If he's a pretty logical person, explain to him how although it doesn't appear right on your behalf, you did do him a favour because now he knows rather than her hooking up with other guys behind his back and him never finding out.
Dlusion: Rusulki wrote:
Yeah, sometimes my friend's bf's do the flirting with me and you know what, I don't fuck them out of some ridiculous misguided sense of morality. If I were to ever fuck one of them, I'd at least do everyone involved the favor of being honest about my reasons. Lying to yourself is totally not OB.
you seem to be the guys girlfriend, it doesnt really work the other way around, you're the one in the relationship with the guy, whereas we are the friends. "hey tom! your friend chris was flirting with me, so i wanted to test him, and we had sex, hes not your friend"
"hey tom! your girls been kinda flirting with me, and we made out the other day.. i dont think she cares that much about you" www.showabuddy.com that guys gf cheated on him with his best friend and his brother, and hes taking action against the girl, as i think it should be, shes the one in the commited relationship with him. im sure he was mad at his brother for a while but, if she cheated on him twice and once with his own brother [not to mention has webcam lesbian sex apparently] i think she would of cheated on him anyway with someone else, eventually.
Serpent: it seems like whenever a bitch is unfaithful to a guy he blames it all on the guy who fukced her and doesn't see that she was willing to cheat on him
Dlusion: actually, Rusulki, i misread your post thinking you said your bf's friends were hitting on you, however i see now you clearly meant your friends bfs ive actually been in situations where my gfs friend flirts with me, sometimes its because she actually wants to hook up with me, and sometimes they want actually hook up with me, just to tell my girlfriend. its hard to tell the difference, and im sure many motives could be concluded of their desire to do such a thing. 1.they are taking care of their friend 2.the whole competition thing, want to"beat" the friend 3.they actually dig you and want you thats all i can think of at the moment, although my previous post was misdirected, i think its useful. i dont know, you're a girl, you could supply more information, from your personal point of view, what you've seen, etc
Rusulki: Yeah, I was kind of wondering what the hell you were talking about in your reply. As for your list all I can think to add is 4) booze (I'm going to go ahead and call this the main one) 5) Sometimes flirting is just fun and means nothing.
-----------------------------------------------------------situations in which girls will flirt with their friends bf: 1.taking care of their friend [making sure hes not a dog] 2.the whole competition thing, want to"beat" the friend 3.they actually dig you and want you 4.they're drunk [amplifies the rest] 5.just flirting innocently situations in which guys will flirt with their friends gf: 1.they dig the girl and want her 2.taking care of their friend [thinkin she might be a no good slut] 3.they're drunk [amplifies the rest] 4.just flirting "innocently" [maybe one day something more] some reference Ladder Theory wrote: Loyalty: A lot of people have asked about the significant others of friends and if they are special cases of the Ladder. They are not. These are not your friends. These are virtual friends. For example, a friend of mine is fucking a girl. I like her, she's great, we get along, etc... But when they break up she is dead to me. Or if the friend leaves the picture the normal rules of the Ladder apply. So are we really friends? Of course not. We are conditional friends. This does not affect where she goes on the Ladder. Think of it like this: the Ladder is a rating system, and I'll rate her along with everyone else based on how much I would like to fuck them. A note for guys: if your friends girl offers you a piece you should hit that shit, because he shouldn't be laying up with no ho. Ideally you should tape it also, because most guys will believe the person they're fucking.
-------------------------------------------Here's what I've learned. How pissed your friend will be generally depends on two factors: 1. How high the girl is on your friend's ladder. If she's really hot, he's gonna take it harder because she represents the hottest he can get. This typically applies when your friend is not in a relationship with the girl.
2. How emotionally invested your friend is in the girl. If he really loves her and has been with her for a while, then reason's out the door. He won't give a shit about some agreement you guys made.
-----------------------------------------Aussie Friend With Benefits
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 5:25 pm Post subject: So has the motherfucker left her or what?
Reply with quote
If not, procede to make out with her again. Repeat this process until his balls grow back.
Are you my bitch? By Puss in Boots. That's the question almost every single girl will ask you the first few times you meet them. Most people refer to this as a "test", but we here at Pimpology know what its REALLY about. Calling this question a Test implies that it is something you have pass and that's why we call it bullshit. Pimpology's view is that it is not the women who should be doing the "testing", it is us. Why become some applicant kissing ass to try and get the job of being this girl's boyfriend? Instead be the interviewer! Be the BOSS. Be the MAN you're supposed to be. It's not hard to spot the situations where the girl is trying to make you her personal servant. The problem is how to respond to it. Which is simply, you don't. Don't believe these various "love doctors" concocting schemes to try and win the girls approval. It is the girl who should be trying to win the approval of you! So now when that girl try's to make you jealous or asks you to get the phone that's sitting right next to her, don't give the usual yes or no answers. CALL HER OUT. Ask her why she is asking you to get the phone that's sitting right next to her. Ask her why would she say how fun it was hanging out with Brendon at the movies last week when you were just talking about how good spaghetti is? She WILL stumble. If she tries to play it off with some bullshit reason, dump her on the spot. She is lying to you and will lie to you about anything. If she says "I don't know" or anything like that, then she is just a normal girl who had that "test" programmed in her mind. - Jester
A question conjectured by millions with very limited success. Even scientific geniuses are unable to answer this very simple question. The world is overcomplicating a very simple problem. Women want Men. Therefore in reality, our real question is, What is a man? Today many males in our society work behind the shadowed walls of a fabric-covered, grey, cubicle. From these imprisoned circumstances, todays men pray for their dreams of living a more fulfilled life. A life where their natural desires could be expressed and satisfied. A man is not afraid to express his desire. A man will never regret expressing his desire for a woman. It is natural for him to want a woman. He does not apologize for what nature made him. To regret desire is to totally reject his very nature. A mans existence is defined by his passion. Without passion, the man might as well not exist at all. I ask you now; what is your passion? Whatever it may be, live by it. That is your happiness in life, women are just complementary. Have no passion? You better find one. A man is uninfluenced by what people think. A man acts for what is right and what is good. A man has character and self respect. A Man does what is right regardless of any kind of pressures kind put on him. A man has backbone. Men are by nature sexual, and men are not afraid. A man must then be unafraid of expressing his sexuality to a woman.
The names may change, but the people stay the same. Their behavior stems from their insecurity with themselves. The nice guy is always submissive, always passive. The jerk is always aggressive, always trying to fight verbally or physically. The nice guy will spend his teens and twenties in misery, until women in their 30s get ready to settle down with someone dependable. In other words, shes had her fun having sex with all the jerks and now wants a guy who can support her. Dont be this guy. Women want neither of these perversions of Man. The user may seek after The Nice Guys, and the abused may seek out The Jerk, but the real desirable women want something more. They want the complete package, otherwise known as a Great Guy. The Great Guy has the positive attributes of both The Jerk and The Nice Guy, but none of the undesirable traits. For example, The Jerk is confident and sexually aware. The Nice Guy is fair and romantic, but has no sexuality or backbone. The Great Guy is Confident, even-handed and unafraid of showing his sexuality to women. The Great Guy does not abuse his women, and he does not let them abuse him. The Great Guy stands up for himself and his friends and NEVER takes shit from ANYONE. Make it your goal to become a Great Guy. Whenever you have a choice of options, whenever you consider your decision, ask yourself, What would a Great Guy do? Thats all that will be said on this very old subject.
Judge of a man by his questions rather than by his answers - Voltaire Perhaps then you are asking the wrong questions. That is the fact that has led you down this road. You have not asked the right questions, and so you have only received answers that will not help you. That incorrect question you have been asking is, What do women want? Thousands have answered that one already, ranging from shoes to muscles to millions and so on. That question will get you NOTHING. The question you must ask is this, What do I want from women? Answer that question, and you will be on the path towards success. What we really do here at pimpology, is teach guys just like you how to Be a Man. Everything else will come with that. Every day some Nice Guy out there is being figuratively slapped in the face and literally being rejected by the girl of his dreams. And every day the cycle continues until that Nice Guy settles for the Unattractive and self-loathing girls that only seek to Use and Abuse his nice and subservient nature. There's nothing stopping Melvin from getting some action. Now, lets talk about you. Do you dream about that one girl who you would be just.oh so happy with? That girl that would just make your life complete. Do you buy girls flowers and dinners and expensive gifts hoping they might one day agree to your pleas of going out with you? And after you do plead with those girls, do they say over and over again thatthey would rather just be friends? Do you take shit from almost every single person you meet? If you answered yes to any one of these questions, than you are, an Average Frustrated Chump. An AFC, the term we here at Pimpology not-so-lovingly label Nice Guys. But.hope remains for you my friend. Every one of my friends and I was once just like you. Now, no girl is misunderstood. No action is questioned. Now we ARE what you WISH you were. You have to want it. You have to desire it so badly that you will be completely and utterly DEDICATED to change. If you REALLY want to be become a Man, then a Man you will become with the help of pimpology. Read on and be transformed.
YuckFou Initiate of the Greater Mysteries
Joined: 14 May 2006 Posts: 64
PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2006 7:14 pm Post subject: Reply with quote Well, so i had this date with her tonight. It's 4:47 AM now and I'm back home. Yesterday I told her i wanted to come by to smoke a joint and chat a little. I said i had an appointment with an old friend of mine to go out for a drink later that night, so I'd stay a couple of hours to chat. That night i went out in my town, talked to my IP - man, it sucked, i wanted her bad, but whatever, she was my source to information about this chick. She told me she found me very interesting. Well, that was good to hear. Kissed my IP on the cheek, she apologised for stalking me and i went on to get even more drunk... D-Day: I called her, asked her address and agreed to be there around 20h. On the phone i heard some guy talk, i think he's something like her IW, because they go shopping together. I hoped he would get lost asap. I was supposed to be there at 20h but i was half an hour late. She let me in, we didn't shake hands or kiss. Pretty strange IMO, i always kiss girls when i see them or first meet them (is it a IW-ting?). Her IW was gone, that was a real relief, now it was just me and her. Anyways, i felt pretty confident, sat on her couch, looked around in her place... She sat on her bed next to the couch. We asked each other some basic questions. I rolled a joint and we smoked. So an hour from there i started thinking: i gotta make a move or something. As she went to the bathroom i took a seat on her bed, and started rolling another. She came back and sat next to me. We talked a lot, not about very interesting stuff, but the flow was there. We played with one of her rats, nice animals by the way, etc. At some point we were next to each other, sitting on her bed, back against the wall, lots of pillows, blanket over out legs, watching TV, drinking, smoking, laughing. All seemed good, but... I had a deadline. Told her I'd meet with this friend of mine at 0000. It was 2300 for gods sake! Man, what to do. There was no way i could like.. take her hand, stroke her hair, or whatever. I had no idea how she would react. I took a piss and when i came back got myself closer to her. I felt good man, i had the feeling i could score if i wanted, but i had no fucking clue how.
After a large hour of being a fucking pussy i told her i should go. I figured out the best possible move was to kiss her when she let me out. We put our shoes on and went into the hall. She hates spiders so god brought me a spider on the ceiling of the hallway. Without anymore drama: i killed the spider for her (man, what a hero i am) so scored some points. She opened the door, i gave her three kisses on the cheek and tried to kiss her for real, but she kind of kept her head down so i couldn't. With our foreheads against each other i said "Hmm?" she said something like: "It's all going too fast, sorry, maybe next time." I replied: "OK, I'm going now, bye!" - bye. Fuck! That was it! Went to my friend, had a beer and some food in town and i drove home. So, I guess I'll talk to her tomorrow. Hopefully she wants to meet me again, cause I actually like her.
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Joined: 11 Oct 2005 Posts: 887 Location: NYC or Ann Arbor, MI PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2006 3:10 pm Post subject: sacrilicious wrote: Bob2038 wrote: YuckFou wrote: "It's all going too fast, sorry, maybe next time." Reply with quote
shot down... yeah that was really going too fast... sitting around being an IW on her bed must have been light speedish. "she's stressed.. she just got out of a relationship, she's tired, she's on her rag, she wants to get to know me first, etc, etc" IF she says any of the sort she's just making excuses. If she actually liked you, none of that would matter.
Disagree. I've been shot down for being too fast and then fucked the shit out of the girl later. It's not an indicator either way.
This is truer than you think. When you move in for a kiss and the girl turns her head or otherwise turns you down in a GENTLE way (like "too fast" or "wait" or just turning her face a bit), don't take it as a beall-end-all REJECTION. I've written before, a kiss is an emotional state AMPLIFIER. You kiss to amplify attraction or comfort or horniness. But you need a base to amplify, right? When you move in for a kiss and the girl turns you down like that, all she's really signaling to you is: "I'm not prepped up yet. Attract me more/Build more comfort." That's ALL. Usually, if I go in for a kiss and I get the cheek, I'll just move down and kiss her neck. If I get the "It's moving too fast," I'll just say "You know... every passionate relationship I've had has begun passionately... just relax. But for now, we can start with a hug, okay?" Then when we hug, I'll bite her neck. LOL. Seriously, stop flipping over kisses guys. It's JUST a kiss... for whatever that's worth. _________________ "Falling in love is one of life's pleasures." - Juggler "I don't care how hot she is... Some guy, somewhere, right now, is fucking tired of her shit." - Philos
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HugeGoddamnIW Ladder Jumper
Joined: 15 Nov 2003 Posts: 226
PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 4:36 pm Post subject: TV and intellectual whores Reply with quote what TV show do you think is most responsible for causing people to behave intellectually whorish? I'd begin but i cannot think of a TV show offhand. _________________ Between men and women there is no friendship possible. There is passion, enmity, worship, love, but no friendship. --Oscar Wilde
malik Friend With Benefits
Joined: 04 Jul 2004 Posts: 1677 Location: Sweden PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 4:45 pm Post subject: "friends" probably. _________________ Pwned by flame, april 30th 2006. Reply with quote
zeratum Auggo 2.0
Joined: 05 Mar 2004 Posts: 13215
Location: SRQ PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 4:51 pm Post subject: Reply with quote That one about the fashion magazine with David Spade. _________________ "Nothing screams I'm important like screaming 'I'm important' into your cell phone" -Beer Commercial
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 Posts: 2451 Location: Chicago, IL PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 5:35 pm Post subject: Reply with quote I think movies are more responsible. The ones with the dramatic PG-13 speeches when the guy makes a dire plea to the girl.
Tanz Forum Prophet
Joined: 17 Mar 2004 Posts: 9659 Location: The end of time PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 6:16 pm Post subject: Re: TV and intellectual whores Reply with quote HugeGoddamnIW wrote: what TV show do you think is most responsible for causing people to behave intellectually whorish? I'd begin but i cannot think of a TV show offhand.
Although this show isn't 'responsible' for producing more IWs, it has observed several severe cases. I'm referring to an MTV show called 'MADE' and one in particular where
some hopeless IW tried to make his IP fall in love with him by taking 'Salsa Dancing' lessons with him. Of course it didn't work, and it was almost painful to watch the expression on his face when she said 'I'd like us to just be friends'. _________________ Tollan wrote: I think the general rule is that if more than 10 people like something, Tanz hates it.
Serpent Banged Virginia and Her Mom
Joined: 19 Jan 2006 Posts: 905
PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 6:44 pm Post subject: Re: TV and intellectual whores Reply with quote
i remember that episode girl wasn't even that good looking is it me or do most of the IPs that get exposed are ugly/average? _________________ You weep cuz we play you bitches we thought you trikcs had riches but don't blame us, blame your game the one you made, that made us now you can share the pain now you know what's the deal bitches were born into a confusion while society gave boys an illusion
Suave Marco
Friend With Benefits
Joined: 12 Feb 2006 Posts: 1190 Location: Trailer Park Central PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 6:58 pm Post subject: Re: TV and intellectual whores Reply with quote I think the only way to judge is by how good looking the guy is. If a guy wants a girl that's definately better than what he was shooting for, he's going to go after the IP because of the whole rare pokemon syndrome.
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 Posts: 2451 Location: Chicago, IL PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 7:18 pm Post subject: Re: TV and intellectual whores Reply with quote Serpent wrote:
is it me or do most of the IPs that get exposed are ugly/average?
First, it's important to note that just because a girl doesn't return the same feelings to a guy that doesn't make her an IP. It's women who KNOW how he feels, and doesn't either DIRECTLY TELL or at the very least give PROGRESSIVELY LARGER HINTS/CLUES. Most well-adjusted women don't like to have IWs. It's uncomfortable and creepy. But alas, MANY women in this world are NOT well-adjusted and crave the validation they get from IWs. THOSE are the IPs. In the MTV "Made" episode, we really don't know the back-story. Maybe he just had a secret crush on her that she never knew about (in which case she's not an IP), or maybe she CLEARLY gave him the KoD once or even several times and he's refused to listen (which just makes him a pathetic loser). But back to the main question. I think it is more frequent that exposed IPs are ugly/average and not hot. There are multiple reasons.
1) Ugly/average women hold less of a power-disparity over their IWs. True, she is in the power position. But not AS MUCH as if they were very good looking/hot. The lower the disparity, the less shit a guy is willing to put up with. Supernova-hot women can make an IW delusional to the point where he never recovers. He will ALWAYS rationalize & excuse her behavior because, "he loves her." Ugly & average girls don't typically have that type of power, and thus it's more likely that their IWs will eventually wake up out of the spell.
2) This is going to be a controversial reason, but I think that hot women are less likely to have a stable of IWs than average/ugly girls. The primary purpose for keeping a stable of IWs is for validation. Hot women ALREADY get validation from men ALL THE TIME. In fact, their main problem is getting RID of guys. Even when she tries to politely give a guy the KoD, he still might stick around hoping it will work out, even though she has given him ZERO encouragement whatsoever (or more accurately, he will IMAGINE encouragement by reading into tiny details in the way she talks or smiles or something). (see "the spell" in #1). Hot women are much more likely to be in the situaiton described in the first paragraph of this post. There might be a stable of guys TRYING to be her BF, and TRYING to be her IW but, unless she is incredibly insecure about men (doubtful), she is also actively TRYING to discourage them. For the hot woman, her dilema is to be very clear & brutal (and risk being called a cold bitch), or to be more polite & gentle (and risk being called an IP for, "stringing the guy along"). But realize that being a bitch or HONESTLY trying to give the guy hints that it won't happen tactfully does not make a girl an IP.
Suave Marco Friend With Benefits
Joined: 12 Feb 2006 Posts: 1194 Location: Trailer Park Central PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 11:29 pm Post subject: uffe wrote: Suave Marco wrote: The old show's, Buffy and Angel. Reply with quote
Buffy?
You mean the show where the dorky kid (Zander?) doesn't get the girl and she instead gets with the OB (Angel). I don't see the problem.
Angel was only OB in his own show... Buffy and Angel weren't the only two in a relationship. In the beginning, Zandar was being IW'd by Cordelia, and towards the end of the show, Zandar was being IW'd by Onya. Zandar was lucky to realize what the fuck was going on, during that wedding night, and turned the tables on her ass, making her wish him dead n' shit... My favorite episode was when there were two zanders, and she didn't want them melded back to one person just yet, cuz she wanted a 3-some.
fien Ne plus ultra
Joined: 08 Oct 2003 Posts: 2587 Location: Taliban They are right here in the library and he's too nice to shoot her down. What should I do?? Friends don't let friends bang fat women, right? Should I pretend to be his hot gay lover and rescue him?? Help!! \\Comment by Ninhil how fat is fat? \\Comment by Fien she looks bigger than me and I played hs football. \\Comment by BigKahuna Hand him a note that contains this little piece of advice my big brother gave me years ago: Doing a fat chick is like riding a mo-ped. It's pretty cool until someone sees you do it. \\Comment by Anon I've learned that commenting on your friends' taste or choices in women makes you a bad friend to them. Just accept whatever they want to do, even if that means that they want to bang a fat chick. sincerely, anon _________________ Back momentarily. \\Comment by Dlusion this calls for a quick reading from the book of lyrics 50 cent - fat bitch Yea, we over here, with some fat chicks, ha ha.. [50 Cent] yo, I don't be fuckin with them fat bitches
that's Yayo, all the fat bitches [Chorus] Don't be stuck on tha things they say, now you know it's a nasty world(nasty world) I ain't fuckin with you anyway, cuz i know you're a nasty gurl(nasty gurl) I ain't ever gunna discriminate, so let me compliment your eyes [50 Cent] Fat(fat), them Snickers got your ass gettin fat (fat) Those cookies got your ass gettin fat (fat) That cake got your ass gettin fat (fat) Bitch you grown, that ain't baby fat (fat) [50 Cent] In tha gym I see your ass up on tha stairmaster But you got it on level two bitch go a little faster Look gurl, I ain't gunna lie, I'll tell you how I feel They should handcuff your big ass to tha treadmill You wanna workout now, cuz you know it's gettin hott And your big ass fittin ta pop all up out a halter top Find a right chick wearin some tight shit and it's on See your ass wear some tight shit we like, "she wrong!" [Chorus] Don't be stuck on tha things they say, now you know it's a nasty world (it's a nasty world) I ain't fuckin with you anyway, cuz i know you're a nasty gurl (you'z a nasty gurl) I ain't ever gunna discriminate, so let me compliment your eyes [50 Cent] That Burger King done got your ass fat (fat) McDonald's done got your ass fat (fat) That Domino's done got your ass fat (fat) Fat (fat) [Lloyd Banks] I like 'em slim in tha waist Curves in tha right place A bitch with hips, lips, and a tight face Your appetite will put a dent up in a nigga's salary You need to stop burnin that weed -n- burn them calories
Your attitude is like you always had gear You got a ponytail, you ain't always have hair I just love ta see your capris coming down, mami leave On tha town, stay away if you 300 pounds(pounds) [Chorus] Don't be stuck on tha things they say, now you know it's a nasty world (it's a nasty world) I ain't fuckin with you anyway, cuz i know you're a nasty gurl (you'z a nasty gurl) I ain't ever gunna discriminate, so let me compliment your eyes (say somethin nice 'bout your eyes) [50 Cent] Fat (fat), them cinnasticks got your ass fat (fat) Them Little Debbie's done got your ass fat (fat) these cupcakes done got your ass fat (fat) Fat (fat) [Tony Yayo] I ain't gunna trip, I hang at tha bar with my wallet I'm freaking off in your car or your closet And ain't nothing wrong with a big, strong gurl If you could cook your ass off, I'll give you tha world You could be skinny or fat, white or black Nigga, pussy is pussy, so yea i'll hit that I'm a freak, so I love mnage trois And I really care less if you twice my size [Chorus] Don't be stuck on tha things they say, now you know it's a nasty world (it's a nasty world) I ain't fuckin with you anyway, cuz I know you're a nasty gurl (you're a nasty gurl) I ain't ever gunna discriminate, so let me compliment your eyes(ima compliment your eyes, ha ha) Yayo will fuck wit chu big bitches, but ima stay away tha fuck away from them [50 Cent] Them Snickers got your ass gettin Those cookies got your ass gettin fat (fat) That cake got your ass gettin fat (fat)
Bitch you grown, that ain't baby fat (fat) [50 Cent] Stay tha fuck away from me, fuckin fat bitch Fuck with Tony Yayo ho Uh, oh, stop, don't you touch me I mean this shit ho... i think it fits the situation properly _________________ Answering the questions nobody asked -D.lu \\Comment by Anon Yeah, I think you're right. The only way to save that situation was to jump up in the middle of the library and start rapping. sincerely, anon _________________ Back momentarily. \\Comment by amyr78 You could be skinny or fat, white or black Nigga, pussy is pussy, so yea i'll hit that I'm a freak, so I love mnage trois And I really care less if you twice my size That part sounds like it fits in with the general consensus of the forum members.
mastalock New Fish
Joined: 26 Feb 2004 Posts: 5 Yeah, I'm a new fish and what not, I found this website 2 years ago and it totally changed my life. I was a textbook IW to like 4 or... well let's face it, like every girl I met, forever. And then read this, realized I was an emo piece of shit and started thinking more OB. I was quiet on the forum a long time, and just came back to waste time while at work and read the forums now n then for the last 2 years, posted once or twice about dribble because I was still like... IW wishing I was OB. I'm still not OB, but far far from IW now, and I am so proud. So I'd be glad to help the little toddler IWs in overcoming their illnesseses, because I seriously know where they are coming from. So, story time. Soon after realizing I was an IW and started thinking more OB, we're talking like in a month's time I'd landed myself in a good relationship, with a real cool girl, and it lasted like a year and a half, and then I decided I just couldn't handle her anymore, and I broke up with her like a month ago. She kept trying to talk to me, wanting to still be friends, and I said "Sorry babe. NEXT." and we don't talk anymore. Which is sad, I still respect her, but I will not become an IW for her. Moving on, I'm freshly single, and I really only got to use my OB/fastseduction knowledge on like 2 people before her, so I was wondering what sorts of untapped powers I might still have. So I hit the streets this month seeing if I could really pull off OB, and I've been doing pretty good. Landed some action 2 weeks ago, then decided I didn't really wanna follow up with her, NEXTed. Then this past weekend I was at a party at a restaurant for some barely-friend-of-mine's birthday. At that party was a bunch of people I didn't know, and this latina chick with an amazing rack, but who seemed kinda ... weird. I dunno. So I said to hell with her, I'll have another beer or two and go home, I'm not even interested, hooters or no. Then later on in the party, the chick is sloshed and totally knocks over a full pitcher of beer and the whole party was thrown out of the restaurant. So I'm thinking way to go bigboobs, although I appreciate anyone getting hammered, but congrats. It isn't a real party til something gets broken, right? So the party moves out into the street, and she's sitting on the edge of this fountain and I come out of the restaurant and she immediately makes eye contact with me. I stand there kinda numb for a minute, staring back, I'm not wasted or anything, good to drive even, but kinda dumbfounded at her staring at me. With that... tight shirt on... and ... the spilling out and... Ok, so I walk over, and she's immediately into me, laughs at everything, and I'm sure it's just because she's hammered, but the fact is, I'm determined not to sleep alone tonight and I would love some extra pillows in the bed. Long story short, we talk for a long time, move on to the next bar, and she asks me to buy her a drink. Light goes on in the head from fastseduction about not buying a drink for a girl, because then you're supplicating and she just wants to take advantage of you. I mean who are we kidding here, I was
basically taking advantage of her too >_n but just the same, I gotta be the one calling the shots. So I told her, "Sorry, I don't buy drinks for girls I just met. How bout I walk you to the bar, you buy one, and we'll talk some more, and then I'll know you, and I can buy you drinks?" She just rolled off me and went to dance with some other guy. The rest of the night was spent fighting for her attention past two other cockblocks and I finally said fuck it this isn't worth it anymore and went home. Moral of the story: I was totally owning up until the drink. Maybe buying a drink for someone you just met isn't such a bad idea. Corollary: I was talking to this girl for like an hour or so before the drink idea came up; perhaps the rule only applies in the first 10 minutes. Dose of Reality: If I was really thinking straight, I'd have taken her home well before the hour was up. It was my responsibility to drive her to that next bar, I shoulda taken a detour to the bedroom... (despite the rest of the party goers -- one of whom being her sister -- expecting us at the next bar) Non-IW Conclusion: Don't waste your time dissecting this answer and wondering "WHAT DID I DO WRONG!? DOES GOD HATE ME!?" and instead say "better luck next time", NEXT her, and be just a shade less of a prick next time. That'll do pig. _________________ Givin' up, givin' up, givin' a fuck! -The Darkness \\Comment by Dlusion i would of bought that drink and i wouldnt of said, "sorry i dont buy drinks for girls i just met" what if she did go to sleep with you and then shes like "sorry i dont fuck with guys i just met" and left lol i dunno if there was any other way you could of said no to buying her a drink without her leaving, but hey, more drunk, less rational, better chance of you fucking her. lol my 2 cents
Neon Ne plus ultra
Joined: 25 Mar 2004 Posts: 4638 Location: 5 miles outta vegas where we broke down. I have a morning ritual that I need to share. I call it "the terminator". First I crouch down in the shower in the classic "naked terminator traveling through time" pose. With my eyes closed I crouch there for a minute, visualizing either Arnold or the guy from the second movie (not the chick in the third one because that one sucked) and I start to hum the terminator theme. Then I slowly rise to a standing position and open my eyes. It helps me to proceed through my day as an emotionless, cyborg badass. The only problem is if the shower curtain sticks to my terminator leg. It ruins the fantasy. _________________ I'm the "I" in team. \\Comment by Teair After reading this, I said a few lines from Terminator 2 in the shower while impersonating Arnold's voice \\Comment by Wangster So after you shower do you stroll over to your dresser drawer and tell it "your clothes, your boots, your motocycle. givem them to me now" \\Comment by BigCheeseBurger This kid in the dorms my freshman year had the song downloaded. One day he cranked it up over his stereo system, you could hear it all over the dorms. He then borrowed some sunglasses and a leather jacket and practiced the Terminator run (where your legs go super fast but you hardly move your arms) down the hall. Then he started knocking on random doors and would just stand there with the music blaring when people opened the door.
tarvis79 New Fish
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 6 Location: Colorado Springs, CO PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 9:33 pm Post subject: Time For My One Story-Lisa Reply with quote All right, time to get the initiation phase overwith-I've been a lurker on here for some time, and today I just happened to find an old note my former IP wrote to me and realized how happy I am she's now completely out of my life. So here's the story. Short Version-Like everyone, I was a disgustingly weak IW and have since gotten better. Long Version: I was a senior in high school, and had very limited experience with girls because I'd had one girlfriend for the last 2 years (no sex, although this thankfully wasn't because I was a dumbass and failed to pursue it, she wouldn't give it up-farthest I got was giving at third base[which probably meant I was a dumbass for staying in for 2 years, but whatever]). I was the one who ended it because I met some women on a cruise I went on that summer and realized I was tired of not being able to pursue them. So I was single and looking for action. This is when I met Lisa. She was a sophomore, but only 1 year younger than me agewisenice tits, long brown hair, brown eyes, pretty bad legs but I was willing to overlook that. Anyway, she joins the debate team (yes, I was and am a debater) and is the star novice, winning all the novice tournaments and whatnot. I'm one of two dominant seniors who do a lot of winning in varsity. I didn't really interact with her at all (I was actually pretty unimpressed, she came off as an annoying ditz) until the second varisty tournament of the season, where she and I were both semifinalists. So I start chatting with her, and decide maybe that winning means a revision of my opinion of her intellect is in order. Shortly, (after another tournament of hanging out with her) this translates into REALLY liking her like all the IWs do. On the way back from that tournament, she makes out with another dude on the bus. The wiser man I am now would abandon everything at precisely that point, but I was not yet wise. She does the whole "big brother" thing with me and I play into it perfectly, giving her emotional support for all the drama she has with bus guy and thinking I'll get in like Flint when everything finally explodes and she drops him for good. Well, that's pretty much my senior year. I don't go for any other women because I'm waiting on her, and presto, it's March and I only have a couple months left until graduation. She breaks up with bus dude and I think it's finally my chance. So, I make the
incredibly gutsy move of sending her a private message on a debate forum telling her I'd love to take her out sometime. Then, she never checks it, so I make a public post on said forum telling her to check her private messages. She does, and answers back telling me, of course, that I'm too much like a brother and this whole thing with bus dude is still too recent for her to be comfortable. Naturally, this is all OK with me. Of course, now she's worried she might lose the control she has, so she "promotes" me to cuddle bitch when we hang out to make sure that doesn't happen. Works like a charm, but I ask her out again after graduation, and this time she tells me something like it would be too weird to tell our debate coach she was dating me, but she still goes to all the graduation parties with me and clings to me like a girlfriend. She also gets a new boyfriend a few towns away who she's "in love with," which prompts several conversations about why we can't date. She keeps acting the same way at the grad parties, though, so naturally, we get asked if we've "finally started dating" about a million times to which we both laugh and say no. I was ignorant enough to interpret this as a good sign. I guess the repetitive asking was getting annoying, so she sets me up with one of her friends. This girl, Ava, is hotter (incredible rack, better face, athletic legs (swimmer))-and the setup works (at least, I thought it was working)-kiss and phone number on the first date, things get heavier than before every time I see her, and I think, sweet, time to move on, greener pastures are here. Then we take a trip to the national championship tournament, which we've both qualled for. I've only been with Ava about a week when we leave, and we're spending a week together at a hotel across the country. The night before the trip, she calls me up crying, saying she's just broken up with this boyfriend, and how she really wants me now, and how we just have such terrible timing. At this point, my will is strong enough to say no-I mean, I'm progressing with a girl who's hotter than she is, right? But my resistance breaks on the nationals trip. She's holding my hand the entire time, telling me she really likes me, and I suppose the now 9-month investment I have in her gets to me. After the trip, I send her a message saying I'd like to be with her, and I terminate things with Ava. (only got to 2nd with her-mistake) As soon as I end it with Ava, she tells me she doesn't like the thought that I dumped her friend just to date her, and that it can't happen. Then she says something really weird about how if I really want her, I won't let her go, and hangs up. She wanted to see if she could convince me to begand she did. I dress up, drive over to her house, and declare that I can't live without her and all that jazz. Finally, she kisses me and says something about how great it'll be. We spend the next week making out every day, and never get anywhere beyond that. After the one week, she summarily tells me she can't do this anymore and it's over. I spend a couple of hours begging and go home in tears, hating life. After that, she picks up right where we were when she set me up with Ava, and this continues (except with a lot more self-loathing for me) until I leave to go to college about 3 hours away.
First semester my freshman year, she calls me about once a week, and we usually talk over an hour. I do pretty well at least trying to get other women, but never get anything more than an evening out and a kiss. At this point, I haven't found this website, but I have started getting David DeAngelo's newsletters, so I'm trying to be cocky/funny on the phone with Lisa. I come home for 4 days for thanksgiving break, and at this point she has a new boyfriend, a few towns away. We make out twice, and at one point she reached into my pants before backing away and yapping about what a mistake it was. (For the wise, the C&F was making her feel like perhaps she was losing power, so this stuff was to make sure I still wanted her) I'm an honest dude, so I tell her boyfriend who I know but not well what's up and he asks me who initiated it (her), thanks me and dumps her. I get a huge raving message about what a horrible fucking bastard I am and how I've lost her forever. I tell her I wasn't the one who cheated on somebody and shut off AIM. My phone rings, I pick up, she tells me I "can't get off that easy." We have a talk, she calms down, realizes it was her mistake, and we hang up on good terms. Next is winter break, after first semester ends. I'm back for a month, and housesitting for the debate coach from HS while I'm there. One night, she comes over to watch movies on the coach's bigscreen, and she initiates more sexual contact. This time, I get my dick sucked and I'm suddenly feeling better about the year and a half I've invested in her. (At that point, this was the farthest I've ever been). Happens again a couple nights later, we have a "this doesn't mean any relationship" chat. Then, the assistant coach from HS, a college girl 2 years older than me(not the one I was housesitting for) invites me to drink at her house. She's not that hot, but I'm pretty psyched about getting with a junior in college at age 18, and sure enough, finally ditch the v-card that night. Then I take off for school again, still with about the same other women success level I've been having (dates and kisses, no more). I realize I ought to be doing better, but at the same time, even kisses from 10-15 women feels like a lot of progress after my really stagnant high school years. The summer after freshman year, the old coach invites me to go to nationals as an assistant coach for the current high schoolers, so I head over to spend another week in a different hotel with Lisa. I start to feel the tug of wanting a relationship with her again while there, as she confides to me how messed up things are with the current boy, a debater on the team. However, I don't go for it, not because I'm wiser, but because I've given up and resigned myself to staying just friends unless she initiates something. Not much beyond strictly IW activity happens that summer, and I head back to school for sophomore year. I still get weekly phone calls from her, and they're all about the wonderful new boy she's totally in love with and how she finally gave him her virginity and yadda yadda yadda. Around this time, I discover this website, and realize exactly what's happening with Lisa. I quit answering the phone when she calls, quit messaging her, and delete her from my contacts. Naturally, it's like the floodgates open. I'll just say college starts to be like it's supposed to be. Plenty of action after almost all the parties I go to, and life is just generally a whole lot better.
I'm pretty successful at avoiding her almost all the summer we're both in town, too-I agree to go to her graduation party after opening one email from her, don't do any chasing, none of that stuff. Apparently, though, I was still weak, as at the party she started asking all kinds of stuff like was it possible we could get married someday and she thought we were meant to be together, did I agree. My resistance collapsed, I said yes to all the questions, and we said, as she headed off to school, that we were in a relationship and wouldn't have sex with other people. Getting out of contact helps with this episode of foolishness. Once I'm back at school, I meet another girl rather quickly, summarily get Lisa on the phone and tell her something like "i didn't mean it, i guess I was just nostalgic for when I really did love you" and get back out of contact. Of course, during that conversation, she explodes at me about the wonderful boyfriend she's had all along at school behind my back, but whatever. I start reading this site every time she pops into my mind, and soon I've gotten rid of everything that reminds me of her except my old debate trophies, but the wins behind them really shadow the connection to her that they signify. Finally, for whatever reason, I'm home for winter break of junior year and agree to see her one time. She tells me she broke up with the dude she ranted to me about, and tries to get on me. I tell her it's not happening, I'm with a wonderful girl at school (I am, sex all the time, very giving, ladder disparity in my favor, awesome), and I go home and go back to school. I get another email from her asking if she's just an inconvenience from my past and if she should stop contacting me. Having finally reached the zenith of true wisdom, rather than reply yes or no, I delete her number, change my number, delete the email without replying, and change email addresses. This was about a month ago. Manage to totally forget her until I go check my school mailbox (something I do maybe once every three months) and amidst the credit card offers, find a note telling me she loves me from when we were in our long-distance relationship. I trash it and decide to make this post. Frankly, I feel cheated out of my senior year of high school and summer before college, and maybe even my freshman year of college, but still, a lot of guys have had it way worse than that. I was pretty lucky to wise up as early as 20, I suppose. _________________ "I've always equated feelings with getting caught-they both get in the way of my money."-Garrett the Master Thief Back to top View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address detectivescr0tes Ladder Jumper
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 10:32 pm Post subject: Reply with quote Dude thats pretty fucking bad. How could you be on a debate team and not be able to convince her to fuck you? BTW Girls named Lisa are total cunts
Redseraphs legendary IP #3 sigh* Get ready for a long, sad one, folks. Give yourself 20 minutes. This is my former "Most Likely to Be Married To" #2. And of all the major IPs in my life, ranks #3. Cliff's Notes: I fall for the same bullshit, from the same girl, about 4 or 5 times over the course of 8 years. And I STILL poked at her some last week because I didn't learn my lesson. Confused -The Robyn The Mouse Girl StoryWhen I was in high school, I used to check out the girls in the hallway as I walked between classes. I mean hell, who didn't? And there was one particular girl that I always passed in the same hall between 4th and 5th periods who really caught my eye. She was petite, maybe 5'1" or 5'2", thin, had to be 100~105 lbs. Small glasses over even smaller, brown eyes. Hell, here's a recent picture of her (with contacts) but just, picture her in high school:
This girl captivated me. Her pale skin and tiny eyes made me think she looked like a little white mouse, the kind you don't want to feed to the big mean snake. I used to always refer to this mystery girl as "the mouse girl", because I have a dumb nickname for pretty much everyone I know. So I checked out the Mouse Girl every day in the hallway. I don't think we ever made eye contact though. I know I was really shy, so I probably looked away if I ever caught her looking at me. Whenever possible I walked and talked and laughed loudly with friends as I passed her, completely ignoring her. Because I had to look cool, right? She probly had never even noticed me of course. After a full semester of... well, nothing... There was a school play coming up. I had never been in one, and I wasn't in drama class, but I tell really good stories, I'm very animated and expressive, and I always wanted to do film acting. The play was open to anyone this semester, because the real drama teacher was on maternal leave for the semester, and the substitute just said "to hell with it, anyone can get in" and held an open audition. I figured, maybe this was my big chance. I decided to tell a favorite joke of mine that takes a full 5 minutes to tell, I call it "The Five Minute Pun", and someday I promise to punish all of you with it here, it's a good'un. But it's much better done in person, acting out all the parts. And I totally nailed that audition. Lots of laughs, good applause, the teacher/director loved it. She took down my contact info and said she'd get back to me. As I was walking up the aisle of the auditorium thinking I was so awesome and totally nailed it, I was watching my feet crossing over the checkerboard tile just being pumped, and then very suddenly, someone reached out from the seats and grabbed my wrist and stopped my movement--
It was the Mouse Girl. "That was AWESOME! Oh my God that joke was SO funny, you're a GREAT actor!!" She was astounded. "Well thanks!" I said, "That's a classic joke of mine, I'm glad you liked it!" "I really did, good job!" she says. And with that, my vagina was throbbing and I simply scurried off to the back of the auditorium without talking to her anymore. I dunno, I guess I panicked. But I remember waiting for my mom to pick me up (I could drive, but didn't have a car and my parents used both of theirs to go to work) and I was just ecstatic. The Mouse Girl took notice of me! That's crazy. The next day in the hall I passed her at my usual spot, and this time I waved to her. She said "Hey! I heard you got the part!" I said "Really? Because... even I didn't know yet, hahah! How did you find out?" She says "They posted it on the drama room door." I said "Oh, awesome. I don't have drama class, so I've never gone over there, maybe I should check it out..." She says "Yeah, go look!" I say "Thanks" and head off to class. Later that day I check it out, sure enough, there I am, listed for a part. ...Wait a second. My... name? I never told her my name! How does she know which one I am?? Hell, I didn't even know HER name!! The next day, same spot, I said "Hey wait a sec, you ... how did you know which one on that poster was me?" She says "Oh, I asked around. I was proud of you!" I said "Heh, yeah, that's great, thanks.... So, what is YOUR name then, if you already know mine?" "Oh, haha, silly me," and she stuck her hand out in the cutest way, kinda turned her body a bit toward me at a diagonal and leaned forward while bowing a bit and reached her hand up with a smile and said, "Robyn." I shook her hand of course... it was so small and soft, I loved it... "RedSeraph." We smiled at each other for a few seconds and then I said "Well great to meet you and be actually introduced to you, haha! I guess I better go off to class..." She said "Me too! See ya!" and skipped off. The next day we passed and at the same spot, I said hi, we exchanged some unimportant lines because I don't remember them. Probly bragging about my acting prowess or something. She actually turned in the opposite direction of where she was headed to follow me in my direction for the length of the hall, just to talk to me. It ended with us at the top of an outdoor staircase with a few seconds of awkward silence, I can vividly remember her white shirt and red skirt (our school colors, though I don't think she was doing that on purpose) and the sun shining on her face, her tiny eyes squinting even tinier. And looking up at me with a smile, she just opened her arms wide. I was addicted to hugging at the time, human touch and affection from girls of any kind was still new to me, and I simply lived for it. (Also note, I wasn't always a fatass: At this time I was 5'5" and 100 lbs, with a pony tail. I was skinny all the way until I started drinking, which was due to my Legendary IP #1: Georgia Mel... fuck, I need to repost that shit...) So I pounced on her and dragged her to the corner of the stair balcony so we were out of the way, and that hug, for the first hug to give to someone, was a long, special hug. She was always so enthusiastic around me, it was kinda magical. I was definitely high on this kid.
And she was a wonderful hugger. That hug lasted at least 10 seconds, which can feel like an eternity, but the good kind. The longest first hug I ever had with someone. And then I let go, we smiled at each other, and walked off to class our separate ways again. Things got a little weird after that, and I don't mean in the bad way. I mean in the WEIRD way. I ran into her at a different point in the day than I normally do, after history, earlier in the morning. More of our usual talk, and another great hug. Then again later at our usual hallway, and again with her pulling a 180 and going the wrong direction so she could talk to me. The next day, I came out of history a little late, and she was there again in the hallway, this time, waiting for me. Again, after history was not our usual spot or time in the day. "Hey there!" I told her, "You were... waiting for me?" She said "Yeah, my class let out a little early, and I ran into you here the other day, so... figured I'd meet you again!" Big smile. Oh my God I LOOOOVED her flirtiness. And yet... was not jumping on this, and unsure why. But .... it just got weirder and closer, despite my retarsion... The next day, not only was she waiting for me after history, not only did we see each other between 4th and 5th periods, but she ALSO showed up at my lunch table with my friends. This was particularly odd because my school was fairly large, and we did lunch in two shifts. There was first lunch and second lunch, and pretty much, you see the same people during your lunch, and never see people from the other lunch. I had 2nd lunch, which was typical for upperclassmen to have, while freshmen and sophomores had first, although there were many exceptions, it was determined by what class you had 5th period. Anyway, tangent... "Hey, Robyn!" "Hey there!" "You.... you have second lunch?" "No, I have first, but, I'm skipping fifth period today. We had a test yesterday and I hate that class anyway, so I figured, why not?" "Hmm. Well. Lucky you, I guess." "Yep! Mind if I sit down and have lunch with you?" "Um... of course! Uh, guys, this is Robyn..." They took to her fairly well, but not terribly enthusiastic. She, on the other hand, was thrilled to meet them and made herself right at home. The next morning, before school started, I was hanging out with my friends at our usual spot on campus, talking video games and throwing sticks at each other and what not, waiting for the first period bell to ring. Suddenly she walks up to our group. I'd never seen her before school before. How did she know where I hung out? "Hey Red!" "Heeeyyy...! How'd you know where to find me?"
"Mm, I've seen you here before." "That's weird, I don't think I've ever seen you before school before, not in this area... Anyway, cool that you found me." "Yeah! So (blah blah blah small talk)" She pulls out some magazines and starts sharing a bit of her life and interests with me. "Do you believe in horoscopes?" she asks me. "Naw. I mean, I believe in the power of the mind and psychics and stuff like that, but... I wouldn't want to divine the future, something just seems immoral about that to me." "I'm all about it, I LOVE horoscopes. Here's mine today... 'Dear (Ares or some bullshit, whatever's October 6, I would find out later), you're in for a (joyful week or month or some other bull, blah blah your life is awesome) your love match for the month is, Gemini!" I stared at her in awe for a second or five, jaw slacked. She stared at me back with her eyes squinty and a giant smile on her face. "You know my birthday is in June, don't you?" "Oh REALLY?" "That makes me a Gemini." "Oh AWESOME!" she said, completely sarcastically, as though she knew all too well... "And you know my entire class schedule." "Well no, not all of it, but I pieced it together and asked around." "You're like seriously stalking me." Which was more than apparent by this point, but... well I'd done the same for plenty of girls in the past at this point. And it was really flattering to finally be stalked myself, hahaha... in some weird, twisted, shallow, no selfesteem way. I went on, "Ok, I've been ignoring this for a week, not real sure why, but, you REALLY like me don't you?" She just nodded with slightly bigger eyes, the biggest eyes Robyn could make, anyway. "And you've been waiting for me to ask you out." She nodded more enthusiastically, like she was going to explode. "All right! As of now, we are boyfriend and girlfriend!" I said with my arms open wide. She jumped on me for joy and we had a long hug. I was so happy. We saw each other three times that day, after history, between 4th and 5th periods, and after school on the way to the buses. Long hugs and a few non-tongue kisses each meeting. I was too young and kinda grossed out about tongue kissing. It was all the same to her. I was her first boyfriend after all, she told me. She was my 5th girlfriend by the numbers, but really, only my 3rd significant one. Over the next two days we saw each other more and more frequently. Before school, after school, between every class. She noticed I had silly nicknames for like everyone I knew, and even people I didn't know. She said, "I want a nickname!" I told her, "Well, you already have one, haha... I used to call you 'the Mouse Girl'!" She made a very cute but angry face. "Oh come on!
That isn't cool!" I said "Yes it is!! You have beautiful white skin and those tiny brown eyes, and you reminded me of a cute little mouse!" She just stared at me cold still, but unceasingly cute. I continued, "You know, the kind you don't wanna feed to a snake! Because they look so cute!!" She loosened up a little, "I guess I'll let it slide." Later in the day she told me she looked in a mirror in the bathroom and decided I was right. She does look a bit like a mouse, and it is really cute. So she took the name. Then the weekend hit. I looked her up in the school directory and gave her a ring. She really wanted to do something with me, but she was too busy that weekend with extracurricular stuff and other plans. She tried to get out of some plans she had with her mom, but her mom didn't let her. She said we'll just do something next week, and I reassured her that I was happy to see her at school on Monday anyway, no biggie. Monday, I was waiting for her before school, and she stopped to talk to someone else about 20 feet before she caught up with me. This other person she was talking to... actually, that person stopped her to talk to her. It was... my most recent ex-girlfriend. Fat Jessie (#4... yeah, I did this really gay Megaman thing where I numbered all my girlfriends.. I quit doing that once I woke up to reality, although in the "New Testament" of my life [the Jesus figure being Dallas Lynn], I haven't had as many girlfriends because I haven't been a sucker and throwing myself around or being desperate, so it's easier to count girlfriends since not being an IW anyway...). As the name implies, Jessie was a plumper who I got together with the year before, mostly to prove to my ex-girlfriend previous to her that that girlfriend (#3) would be "easily replaced, and I could do it by Valentine's day" that year. STUPIDEST, IDEA, EVER. Jessie was a last minute shoe-in date to the Valentine's day dance, and we stayed together for 5 months afterward, even though she treated me like shit. I began not to like her about 3 months in, but because I had no self-esteem unless I was SOMEONE'S boyfriend, I stuck with her another 2 months until I just couldn't take it anymore. Needless to say, our ending was a little more than bitter. This is why one should learn about IW.com ASAP in life, kthxbye. The worst part about it was Fat Jessie was friends with some of my friends, that was how I knew her in the first place. And in our little corner of the campus, I was hanging out in the very corner with my boys, while Jessie and her girls were on the outer perimeter. Robyn had to go through Jessie to get to me. And after all the bullshit between me and Jessie, I didn't feel like walking up there to shove Jessie off of her. But I was very worried about what Jessie might be saying to her. Eventually, Robyn walked off from her toward me. She had on a smile that looked like she was trying hard to smile. "What was that chick telling you?" I grilled her. "Oh, nothing important." "You know who she is, right?" "Mm... n..no?" she said sheepishly. I wasn't sure whether I should believe her or not. "She's my ex-girlfriend, she's a bitch." PS, I NEVER cussed back then, so this had a little more impact. "We hate each other, I'm sure anything she told you about me is a lie."
"Mm hmm. It's ok, really. Don't worry about it!" she tells me and tries to smile it off. She looked hurt, but trying to be sincere. I dunno. Anyway, our hug that day was a little ... colder. And only one kiss. The rest of the day, most of the same, although I lightened up a good bit by the afternoon. By the time we met after school by the buses, she was happy and bouncy like her usual self. Next day, totally normal. Happy bouncy awesome best girlfriend I ever had Robyn. Next day, our week's anniversary, when she came to meet me in the morning, she seemed down. I tried to keep in happy spirits, but I could feel the tension, and I was turning into mush and was really nervous and shaking. When we went to hug, the hug was ok, though I was still shaking. I could feel something bad in the air. I backed my head up to kiss her and she says "Listen, I don't think I can be your girlfriend anymore." I let go of her, and my face must have gone white. My jaw slacked again and I just couldn't even say anything, I was crushed. She said, "You know, people just... say a lot of stuff about you, and they make fun of me for it now too, and it's just... so much pressure, and I just don't think I can do it anymore." It wasn't even substantial. "What KIND of stuff?!" I desperately defended, "Who is saying this? What, Jessie?! You know it's all bullshit from her anyway!" "No, it's not just her though, it... listen, I can't do it anymore," she says. "I'm sorry. It's over... Goodbye..." and she turned and ran away. What.... the fuck? I knew Fat Jessie had to be part of this, I wasn't sure what exactly she would have told Robyn. URGHH! FUCK! I was so mad. But I dunno, you know, I didn't focus so much hatred on Jessie, so much as I was so intensely crushed and sad from Robyn. I spent the rest of the day dragging my head around the floor. I still saw my little Mouse Girl in the hallways where I had always seen her. Back when she was just "The Mouse Girl", and not anyone I knew. Not between every class, just 4th and 5th periods. She never looked at me. Summer came, school was out, I'd put her out of sight and out of mind for a while. Then in the fall, I'd see her around the halls again. Hanging out with new friends of hers. She turned really goth over the summer I guess. Which I didn't mind, I had a lot of trenchcoat friends and what not, but... she wasn't the sweet little Robyn I'd "dated." It was "dating" as far as my high school IW self was concerned. And hell, she was young and innocent, it was dating to her too. "Was." And was over. It hurt every time I saw her. And then finally in spring that year, she just disappeared from campus. I'd heard from the grapevine that she'd moved outta town. Good for her. Good for me. I didn't have to deal with her face anymore.
If you think that's the end of this story, you need to go pee right now and get some popcorn, there's HOURS more. More months passed, and Christmas of my senior year, I was laying on the couch watching TV at home, and there was a phone call for me. My mom handed it to me without questioning who it might be. Plenty of girls called for me. You know, 2 who were interested in me, and the other 10 that I was interested in but was a hugeass IW to. "Hello?" I began. "Hello!" "Who's this?" "Robyn." "Robyn...who?" "ROBYN, silly!" "Haha, you gotta be more specific... I don't think I've met too many Robyns though, just..." Long pause. Then I finished, "there was Robyn the Mouse Girl, and then, like..." "That's me!!" "..........y...you... really?" I was completely confused. It was unreal. And I couldn't tell if I was excited, or scared, or happy, or hurt, or... everything. Just, numb, almost. She continued, "Yes! It's really me! It's Robyn the Mouse Girl! Oh man, I've wanted to talk to you so bad." I sat there quiet still. "Don't hang up!!" she pleaded. "Haha," I laughed weakly, "I didn't intend to, I ... why are you calling me?" "Oh my God Red, I've done nothing but think about you for a whole year!" "What are you doing? Where are you? What the heck happened?" "Ok, what happened was... *sigh* You were right, Jessie was trouble. And she WAS telling me crap about you. She told me you were a huge womanizer and a user, and I knew that wasn't true! I'd asked all around about you, everyone said you were really nice, and a good Christian, and I knew that was wrong! And she rode my bus, so she'd be trying to get into my head there too, and told me you cheated on people, and I told her 'Nope! I've done my homework! He's never cheated on anyone! You're just angry because it didn't work out for you and him!'" I laughed at her, "Haha, oh Robyn, you're my favorite stalker!" "Haha, yeah... So she got REALLY pissed at that and said 'LOOK, if you don't break up with him, I'm gonna make your life a living HELL, do you understand me?' And at first I wasn't scared of her, but like, she grabbed me that day you warned me about her, and enforced her threat some more. When I didn't break up with you that day, she caught me the next day and said that she was straight up going to beat the shit out of me." Utter silence from me. Robyn hesitated. I started talking again first, "Are you SERIOUS? She threatened VIOLENCE against you?" "It was the only way, haha... I wasn't going to give you up for the world!"
"Why didn't you just TELL me?! Or tell some teacher, or--holy crap Robyn, you couldn't just let her get away with that!!" "I didn't know what to do, I was really scared...! Oh Red, I'm so SO sorry! And breaking up with you was SOOO hard to do, and I felt so horrible about it, I hated seeing your face like that! I'm so, so sorry, and it's all I've thought about for a whole year... And then my dad got a promotion and we had to move to Chicago. It was easier not to have to see you in the halls and stuff, but it still didn't stop. I was still up late at night thinking about you all this time." It was pure fucking tragedy. How could this happen to me? It wasn't fair, I thought. I was desperate to keep in touch with her (in retrospect, why wouldn't I be? I was an insecure desperate kinda guy, who finally had a really cute girl who was totally obsessed with me without me having to do hardly anything). I told her I couldn't afford long distance phone calls all the time though, being in high school, and she said it was fine, her dad worked for AT&T, so they had phone cards coming out their ears. She'd just call me. We also exchanged AIM names. We kept in touch the rest of spring, and it was incredible to be..."with" her again. We agreed that in high school it was a little too early to be committed to a long distance thing, so both of us dated other people while we were apart, but also both promised to keep each other first in our hearts, and one day we'd be married. I'd be spending my weekends with these girlfriends that I had senior year, and then share my stories with Robyn, which always ended with, "Crystal's really sweet, but she doesn't compare to you" and all that bullshit. Robyn would say the same for me. It became a source of confidence for me to approach other girls in school, because I didn't want any of them to work out anyway, I already had that highest one on my ladder secured. So I could afford to take risks on other girls at school without fear of rejection. ("Take risks" read: ask someone out on a date, in which we might kiss with no tongue, possibly cuddling involved. The "risk" was being committed to this person and having it not work out [which it never would, they all want sex of some sort which I was not giving them] and the risk of rejection when asking out. I was super-weak.) As I got to know Robyn better over those months, she was picking up wicca and stuff, and this really should have been my first hints that we weren't going to work out. Yet, she continually told me she loved me, and made these promises to convert to Catholicism for me when it was time to get married, and that kept me complacent. She was still always enthusiastic and... seemed, to place me first. Finally during her spring break of my senior year (her junior year, she's a year behind me in school, but only 6 months younger) she told me she had these plans to come down and visit for a whole week. She'd be staying with her old best friend in town, but she'd be "glued to the hip" to me, she said. She wanted to see me at least five days out of the seven. I wanted to make this something super special for Robyn, what good IW wouldn't, right? So, I had been paying attention to who she had mentioned she used to be friends with over the past months of talking to her, and I knew some of the people who knew her in drama (I started taking drama class and being active in the drama club after that play)
and I decided to get them all together for a big surprise dinner in Robyn's honor at a sushi restaurant, which at the time I'd never had sushi. I invited all these friends of hers, and some of them I asked if they knew anyone else who knew Robyn and to invite them too. So half the guest list of about 15 was going to be people I didn't even know, but who she knew. When she got into town, she called me, and told me kinda matter-of-factly that the best friend she was staying with has already made plans for them to go to Disney World for most of the week. They'd be back for the last two days of her stay, and then she was back off to Chicago. So much for being "glued to the hip." I, personally, was crushed by this completely. She did not seem so much to be, but did seem sad just the same. I said ok, well, we're still meeting up on Friday evening for dinner, ok? Ok, she says. I called everyone on my guest list and rescheduled for later in the week. This of course changed who could make it some, but... whatever. Finally the end of the week comes, and I tell her to go to the restaurant on Friday. She says she'll go, and that she's caught wind of some dinner party I put together. I say yes, that's exactly it. She asks if she can invite her old "best friend" Todd. I say sure. I get to the restaurant before she does, there are about 3 people who have shown up too. They're people that I know too at least. One of them is a best friend of mine, a girl, actually she was an ex-gf, it was Amy the Lizard Girl from the Skinny Amber story, it was Amber's best friend. Anyway, when Robyn finally showed up, I went to hug her, and she said "DON'T touch me... I have a really bad sunburn..." were the first words out of her mouth. I backed down a bit, then tried to give her some kinda loose, open hug, which she accepted, begrudgingly. I tried to talk to her but she seemed really distant suddenly, and I was getting scared. Then Todd showed up. Todd was tall and athletic and definitely a threat to me, and of course, Robyn was ECSTATIC to see him, and she let HIM hug her all he wanted. Sunburn my ass. We all filed into the restaurant, and Robyn said "Todd, you HAVE to sit next to me!! And then Deborah, you should probly sit on my other side. Red, I want you to sit across from me." Did I mention that the table we were at made like an L shape and she was on the corner, so, across from her meant "at the head of the L leg", or rather, "facing her, but 6 feet away?" Yeah. I had Amy the Lizard Girl on my right, and I was at the end of the table, the inner part of the L was reserved for the hibachi chef. Dinner was a disaster all the way through, she was laughing and joking with Todd and Deborah, while I just pined for her over there and whined into Amy's shoulder. All that time waiting for this day, and she was still 6 feet away. She might as well have been in Illinois. Amy felt really bad for me, she actually was a good friend, and by this time I was well over Amy and didn't want her, but... you could still nail me for being her IW anyway, technically. In any case, it was a major cry-fest and Robyn shit all over me. I don't remember how it ended, I don't think we had much for goodbyes, and I think I quickly left the scene just to get out of there when dinner was over. I blocked her on AIM and tried to forget about her. Oh but wait. Ohhh no. The story is LONG from over...
Two years later, when I was a sophomore in college, I got an IM from a random girl from the internet. She says she saw my website that I kept at the time and she thought it was cool and interesting and decided to drop me a line. I didn't really question it, I told her I was glad she liked it. We got to know each other a bit and kept talking online for a couple weeks. Soon she got to be a decent e-friend. I never really asked much about her life, I wasn't too interested in her. She says her name's Elizabeth, goes to Illinois State. After about 2 or 3 months of talking to her fairly regularly, she gives me this crap one night about, "Have you ever loved somebody?" And I was like "Uh, YEAH, plenty of times." She was like "No I mean like REEAALLY loved somebody." And I said "Well I like to think that I never loved anyone in vain, I actually cared about all the people I asked out" (which in retrospect is a major lie, once I'd learned about IWism I realized no, I wasn't picky at all, I would take anyone I could get because I had no self-esteem and needed validation from someone else). And Elizabeth says, "Well like... have you ever wanted to marry someone?" I took a deep breath... my favorite subject. And a sad one at that. "Yes, three people. Georgia Mel, Skinny Amber, and Robyn the Mouse Girl. I don't think I've told you about any of them." She said "Is that the order they came in, or your order of importance?" I said "Well, order of importance. They're good stories, remind me to tell you sometime." She said "Ok. Well if you have time, you can tell me about one of them now. Start from the bottom and work up, let's see about Robyn the Mouse Girl." So I told her everything up to this point. When I'd finished, she asked if I still held a grudge. I told her yeah, I'm still hurt, but I'm pretty much over it because A) she's stupid, 2) it was a long time ago. Elizabeth said "What if she came back? Would you take her?" I said "I dunno. Probably, because I'm a sucker. She was damn enthusiastic about me." Elizabeth says, "Because my roommate is Robyn. And she's done nothing but pine about you all year, ever since I met her. She's really sorry for what she did and wishes she could make amends." Once again, dumbstruck. "Really? ... I guess I could talk to her then, but... she was so cold! How could she be like that!? She better realize how bad she hurt me this time. The SECOND time." "Give her a chance. She's a good girl and she's really honest about this." Elizabeth gave me Robyn's screen name, and pretty soon, Robyn contacted me. The more I thought about it, it occurred to me that Robyn's middle name was Elizabeth, perhaps this whole "Elizabeth" thing was a sham just so Robyn could talk to me again directly, maybe it had been her the whole time. It wouldn't be out of her stalker M.O. I called her out on it once, and she denied it. I have no way to prove it. Regardless, she and I started talking again. Long distance, with phone cards, again. She said that she was done with the goth/wicca life and became a super Christian in the past year or so of college, and she did nothing but think about me through it, and how proud I would be of her. She said she was all bitchy to me that day because her mother died. A mother dying is... pretty heavy, but it should never make one a bitch, I think. That didn't completely excuse her behavior to me, but I forgave her anyway. We had basically the same relationship we had in high
school: dating other people, but knowing that one day we would be married, and our "relationship" or closeness or whatever always came first. Ha. I stayed in touch with her for over a year or two, never made plans for her to visit. I decided I didn't want to risk it again, really. I wasn't into her the way I was into her the first OR second go-round. Pretty soon I wasn't even talking marriage-talk with her anymore, but the possibility was still in the back of my mind. I dumped my shit about Georgia Mel on her all the time, she was a good listener. She picked up some boyfriend at ISU, and after some time they started living together. From the sounds of her life, she wasn't the good Christian girl she claimed to be, or if anything, she was slipping. This of course disappointed me, but I still had faith. After that year or two, things were pretty calm between us. Her and her boyfriend had been together for a long time, but I didn't really feel for her like that anymore and I just didn't care. But then one day she confessed to me that she had lost her virginity to him. Now, at the time, I was not as understanding of a person as I am today, and not only did this absolutely crush me again to be disappointed in her, but I was also pretty mad at her that she went and did this. "To me", or "to God" or whatever. I mean, I know it weighed much heavier on me because I knew her so well for so long, and unfortunately I had this habit (which really I've only broken in the past year) that I grade really harsh on the people who are closest to me, or who are the most Christian/Catholic. Like, I've got plenty of atheist friends, and when they had sex, I didn't really care. But if it was a girl I was really close to and she confided in me that she'd had sex with someone, I took it really hard. And if it was a Catholic friend who lost their virginity, I took it really hard AND took offense to it. For the history between Robyn and I, I took this REALLY hard. It was a blow to my entire reality. I was devastated, and pissed at her to some degree, but much more sad. And disappointed in her, and in our fate not working out and all kinds of shit. I wanna take a time out to point out that I don't think like this AT ALL anymore, I'm much more forgiving, AND I don't place all my happiness in the hands of anyone else. This was major IWism going on here, and I left myself WAY vulnerable. In any case, the events took place such that I was freaking out about it, and of course, what does every good emo boy IW do when something terrible happens? He goes straight to LiveJournal and writes aaalll about it. Which I did. And how I felt. Well, I have no idea how or why, but somehow not only did Robyn find out about my little post, but her step-mom found out about it. Stepmom being her "new mom" when her dad remarried after her mom died. Once again, how does a STEP-MOM find out about LiveJournal? And what step-mom reads their step-daughter's LiveJournal? Or worse, her "Friends" page? But regardless, I basically inadverdantly spilled the beans to her step-mom, which was retarded in and of itself, but it also brought all kinds of shit from her mom onto her. So then, Robyn bitched me out about it. Deservingly so. And then she blocked me from AIM and that was the end of us talking. Again.
I felt bad for ruining her life and what not, but at the same time (AT THE TIME, in retrospect this is stupid) I felt like she might have deserved it anyway. "She sold me out", "she broke a cardinal rule", etc. I can't even begin to describe the depth of how stupid this whole situation was. Was I stupid for still talking to her after all the bullshit the FIRST TWO laps around? Was I stupid for over-reacting, being high and mighty and preachy? For posting to LiveJournal like a good little emo boy? I mean... ugh, I'm... UGH. It makes me sick to think I was ever like this, there is SOOO much wrong with this picture already. AND IT DOESN'T END HERE. KingofIW, I may need to challenge your crown again... no wait, my story only covers 8 years, yours was 11, you still win... Anyway. More time passed. At least a year or so, I don't remember. I think I had just graduated from college by the next time she started talking to me. She had done it by making herself a new LJ account, and then trying to friend me. Her account name was something to the effect of "mousegirl" or something, so I knew who it was as soon as she messaged me over it. I apologized for being stuck up and shallow before (by this time I had, finally, loosened up and wasn't so unforgiving of my friends sinning and such, and I was started to mature) and she said it was ok, and sure enough, her and that guy had broken up. She didn't regret losing her virginity, blah blah. I said fine, I don't mind talking to you, but look, NOTHING is happening anymore. I'm through with you. Three strikes already. She said fine. So we were friends. We kept in touch over AIM for a good three years, although not very good touch this time. We would have maybe a 2 or 3 hours conversation once every semester and that was about it. We always came back talking as though we were best friends, close, intimate friends, even though we really weren't that close anymore. And finally, I was over her. I really didn't want her, at all. I knew I could do better. But I took comfort knowing that I was still talking to her, after we'd been through so much bullshit. Maybe life was funny that way. And once I'd finally reached the point where our friendship was completely platonic and I really didn't want her inside, I felt really really good to know her. That may have actually been genuine feelings, and I'm not embarrassed about that, even now. I trusted her as a friend, and beyond that, wouldn't trust her any more than I could throw her, hah. And we grew so much apart in ideologies and life outlooks that it was pretty easy not to be attached to her anymore anyway for me. This was about when I found IW.com and quit being such a huge pussy, quit being so needy, I wasn't posting on the forum then, but I adopted the ideas. And then dated a girl who was a good relationship, well handled and balanced and all that good stuff, and I a real, genuine, mature, forgiving person finally. And finally, the on-going saga... Last month I had a business reason to go to Chicago. Trying to get a job, sell a toy, I'll bother with it in another thread, but suffice to say, I had legitimate, non-girl reasons to go to Chicago. I figured while I'm in the area, I should stop in and see some friends. For that matter, find couches to crash on, because I'm a cheap bastard, why get a hotel? Wink So I
called an old platonic female friend of mine, Katie, and planned to stay with her a few days. I got in touch with BillyDee, made an appointment to hang with him one night. And then, almost as an afterthought, remembered Robyn lived in that area. Hmm. Did I REALLY want to risk seeing her again? Even if there was nothing going on between us? I mean, she had a 3 for 3 history of entering my life and fucking it up. Every time I saw her face-to-face, which only happened in 3 episodes, it ALWAYS ended bad. God, it was so risky. But I mentioned to her anyway that I was going to Chicago and she said "Oh you HAVE to visit me!! OMG I miss you so much!" Sure. Well, since we were close, old friends, as long as I kept things platonic and didn't want her, I'd be fine, right? Afterall, my new philosophy on life was, I'M the only one who can hurt me. I choose the perspective through which my experience comes. The only way she can hurt me is if I let her, right? So I say fine, I'll stay with her for a day or two. I scheduled her to be the smallest part of my trip, 2 nights with her, 4 nights at Katie's. And one of my nights with Robyn would be spent out with BillyDee so it didn't count anyway. Rock. Well, as plans began cementing, I had to rearrange the schedule a lot, and I had to move Robyn to the front. Thus 2 uninterrupted days with her, and 4 days with Kat, one spent in business, one with BillyDee. Whatever. This meant I was cutting out of Kat's time and giving more to Robyn, which probly wouldn't be good. But fine, whatever. I'd hold up okay against Robyn, no big deal. I got to Illinois and went to Robyn's house, she was living in a house with like 4 other people, including some hot OB Asian guy. I walked in confident, gamed up the guy some so that he'd like me for AMOG tactics (mostly out of habit, I wasn't out to get anyone here) and then Robyn took me into her room. It was late at night, she was already in her pajamas. The first thing she did of course was hug me. A good, long hug. Almost a minute or more long. It was a good hug, but I prevented any memories from coming back. I thought about how stupid she was, and how fake everything was, and how she's always so flirty and it's a waste, so... I laugh at this hug, mwa ha. Then she wants to sit on the bed, and we talked about old high school friends and times for a while. Eventually I got into my pajamas, and she tells me she wants me to sleep in her bed. Ugh. Fuck. Well. Fine, but I'm not doing anything with her. I'm not setting this up for anything. But of course, she wants to cuddle, and she misses me oh so bad. Well, without getting emotionally involved, I figured there wasn't anything wrong with it. Afterall, I hadn't slept next to or cuddled with anyone in at least a few months. A body in the bed in my arms might be nice. It wasn't long before she starts with the bullshit about, "Are you still a good Catholic guy?" "What if we were to get married?" "So like, would I still have to convert?" and all this bullshit. I keep shrugging it off, knowing that she's lying to me. But she's getting more aggressive with the kino. We talk about how fucking surreal it is that the last time we were tender in each other's arms was 10th grade, here we were 24 years old. How she thought she'd never be able to kiss me again. So I went for it. We kissed some long, intimate kisses.
I knew this was the time to advance, but you know what? Fuck it. I didn't want her. I didn't want this going anywhere. So I didn't go up her shirt. And I didn't grab her ass, and I just stopped. Not suddenly, not coldly, but just eased out of the kissing, and rolled aside. This was dumb. I was glad that I got to kiss her, and for that matter, I actually meant that kiss. It wasn't me getting high, or horny, it was that I actually cared about her, genuinely. But not so much to a point that I wanted something to come out of our friendship. That was simply expressing how genuine and real my care for her was... as well as expressing how far it did NOT go for her. She smiled and we cuddled close the rest of the night. In wrapping around her I noticed she gained like 40 pounds, whoops. Then again, I like 'em thick, and plus, who am I to complain? I'd gained like 70 pounds since she'd seen me last, so... kept my mouth shut. The next day she took me around Chicago. Ate at a few restaurants, went shopping. She paid for EVERYTHING for me, train tickets, food, the works. Spent at least $70 on me that day. I kept trying to pay for myself, but she insisted I was her guest. We remarked that "Isn't it strange? Even when we were actually going out, we didn't even get to go on a date that week! It's like this is our first date!" The whole day all she wanted to do was hang on my arm or hold my hand. I went with it because she was there and it was nice, but I didn't want her. No way, no how. She's a cocktease, plain and simple. I'd test her sometimes, like shrug her off me and see how long it took her to re-attach. It would be a couple of minutes at least, but without fail, right around when I started feeling like "good, she's gone, and I'm fine without her", that's when she'd take my hand again. Stupid bitch. What the hell was going through her head? And all day long, "What if," "what if," "what if" out of her. "Marriage," "marriage," "you're special to me," "marriage" out of her. It started to grate on me. And not in the "annoying me" way, but in the "maybe she does care about me now" way. Maybe she was realizing what she'd missed out on. Maybe she was being honest this time. Maybe we did still have a chance. And the funny thing was, when I would take her on the street corner and stare at her face, I didn't want her with my body. But our closeness over the years felt true and shined through. I kinda came to realize that I did love her. The real love way. It wasn't an infatuation, I wasn't obsessed with her, but I felt sorry for her almost. Wasting her life with all these guys, and missing me all the time. She talked about how she's getting older now, needs to find a good guy, should be settling down. I was capable of that, and I was serious. I genuinely cared about her, I knew I did deep inside. But didn't jump on it. I didn't want to tell her that. This was too much, too soon, and too damn stupid, that's for sure. But damn she was so flirty... That night we had some minor cuddling, but she wasn't as into me as she was that first night. She did say at one point, "You're a GREAT kisser, and the BEST cuddler EVER." I told her, "The secret is in meaning it when you do it," and kissed her again. But I doubt she got the point. Besides, that line is pretty pussy and emo anyway, to be honest. But I said it because, I only did to her what I meant for her. I didn't want to be making out with her for the sake of making out with her. I've got a new philosophy about life that I don't waste my body on anyone who doesn't deserve it, on anyone who hasn't given their heart to me first. And she definitely didn't do that.
Any time she pulled away, I didn't get hung up on her. I wasn't falling for that shit. If she pulled away, I pulled away too. I didn't need her. We'd be lying in bed, separate, but facing each other. She'd reach out her arm to me, and wrap it over me. I'd pause a minute. Then respond by wrapping my arm around her too and getting closer. Her eyes would close. And after a few minutes, she'd let go of me and roll over, turn away from me. I'd be looking at her for all of 10 seconds, then turn and roll away from her too. I didn't need her. And it wouldn't be but 2 minutes before I'd feel her arm reaching around me again. Then I'd turn back and the cycle repeated. It was an allegory for our entire fucking history. It made me sick. The last day with her, BillyDee called me to finalize our plans for later in the week. I told him I'd be driving from out on the town with him, two hours back (and possibly tipsy) from Chicago to Bloomington, where Katie lived. BillyDee was saying that was kinda risky, maybe we shouldn't drink, I told him naw it's cool, I know my limits, I'll take it easy. While I'm on the phone with him, Robyn jumps into my lap like a little puppy and says "You could come back here!! I live so much closer to Chicago, you shouldn't drive so far! It's another night you can spend with ME!!" I had a heavy sigh knowing this was a bad idea, and paused for like 10 seconds or more to consider it, which seemed like forever. BillyDee was quiet on the phone, Robyn just kept smiling her huge dopey smile, and I was rubbing her hair. "Fine. It is a shorter drive after all. It's cool BillyDee, I've... got a place to stay after we go out." Robyn cheers. Fuck. When I was getting packed to go to Katie's house, Robyn was making our goodbye long and sappy. She was talking about how she's going to Thailand for the summer, but when she gets back the FIRST thing she wants to do is come stay with me for a week in Florida. I tell her that would be wonderful. We kiss and hug goodbye and I'm off. Absence makes the heart grow fonder. I fucking hate life. At Katie's house the whole week, Robyn kept creeping into my head, and I knew, I just KNEW she was taking me for a ride. But I wanted to have hope. And I don't even know why, back home I had like 4 decent girls in my hopper, any one of them was better than Robyn (for me) simply because all of them were Catholic to some degree, and none of them had played bullshit games with me before. But somehow the "fate" thing kept creeping back in. I kept smacking myself every time I thought about her, I told Katie not to let me talk about her. I did all right. By the second or third day she was almost gone. When I hung out with BillyDee, I know I dropped her name at least two or three times, but... I kept trying to forget about her. It had to be bullshit. And holy fuck, what made me so weak in the first place!? After reading LT two years ago, and all my PUA and selfconfidence and independence work last semester, there was no reason for me to be like this. There was no way I could be weak like this, WTF was wrong with me? I was trying to snap myself out of it. One-itis was creeping in, and I wanted to stomp it out, ASAP. Sure enough when I came back to Robyn's after my night out with BillyDee, she was in her Asian guy roommate's room, they were laying on the bed watching TV. Not cuddling
or anything like that, separate, but close to each other. On their stomachs, facing the TV. I walked in, said "hey". Robyn was like "Hiiii!" and just waved to me over her shoulder without really looking. Just what I expected. The burnout. That fucking cunt. I walked over there and smacked her ass really hard and said "Good to see you again too" and then walked out of the room to get ready for bed. She shouted back, "Hey! That hurt!!" I said "Whatever, you liked it." She bitched something about "not like that" or whatever, but I didn't even wanna hear it. I got into pajamas and brushed my teeth and got in her bed. She caught up soon enough, and crept onto her side, not saying good night, not having a good night hug or kiss, just went. Good. Fuck her. I couldn't wait to go home. Actually, I had one more day with Katie before that would happen. But just the same. The next morning I woke up early, but stayed in bed for an hour maybe. Robyn woke up pretty soon after, and immediately went for her Game Boy Advance and played it in bed. I watched her for all of 2 minutes, thinking about how as big of a nerd as I am, even I never pulled this shit on a chick. Then I decided I needed a shower and to get the hell out of Dodge. Did my work, packed up my stuff... While I was packing up, I went for the closure, just so it didn't bother me anymore: "So", I said while buttoning a shirt and facing away from her, "When you talk about all this marriage stuff with me, it's just bullshit, right?" Silence. Then, "Well.... yeah. I mean, what do you mean?" "I mean like you don't give a shit about me, or not interested anyway. And it's just hypothetical shit in an effort to 'get to know me' or something." "Yeah, I like hypotheticals." "Uh huh." And that was the end of that conversation. Without ever making eye contact or speaking a word to her, I started taking my stuff out to the car. She offered to help, I just shoved a bag in her hand and we walked out to the car. At least I made her carry the heavy stuff. Smile When we got to the car, she was keeping close to me, I could tell she was looking for that goodbye hug. And I didn't feel like giving it to her, she didn't deserve it. She lunged after me though, and ducked low and hugged me around my ribs. I put one arm over her shoulder, but I left the other arm draped disinterestedly at my side. Stared into the sky with this "Ugh, how long do I have to be here?" look on my face. And then she stood up, and I said "See ya" and drove off. What bullshit. I can't wait 'til she comes to visit me at the end of summer, IF she even follows up with that. She said there was some guy in Thailand she's supposed to meet who she's been talking with over the internet. I'm sure she'll just fuck him six ways from Saturday, and I don't give a shit. I could do much better than her anyway. But if she comes to my place, she sure as hell isn't staying in my bed. I'll let her know that friends have no right to be in my bed, because I'm an honest person and I don't lead people on. I know that goes against a lot of what people have to say on this site, but the fact is I've changed some more in the last two months, and I've decided that I don't want to lie to anyone with my body, and I won't be a user. I did that all last semester and it was empty feeling. The true weakness that you find in IWs and in people on this site is that an IW
still wants the girl, and is being nice or whatever in covering up an effort to have sex with her. But I don't want to have sex with her, and I have nothing to cover up. She's stupid and a waste of my time. And I refuse to give her any part of my heart. In two weeks' time, I'll be completely indifferent of her again - because the opposite of love is indifference, not hate. And, I choose the source of my happiness, and my sadness. Robyn will be a source of neither. She will mean nothing, and I will choose my sticking to my guns and morals as a source of my happiness. Thus, refusing for her to stay in my bed will bring me happiness. Because I choose it to. Because I want to be an honest person, and if I'm successful in that, I will be happy. I'll take pride in being the better person. I won't be a slave to these emotions, I am in control. This is self-confidence. And I feel fucking awesome about it. But you're allowed to laugh at my foolishness all the same. A legendary IW story. _________________ <-Member of the AAA Fan Club. And I'm not just a member... I'm also the president.... because I'm the only member... Crying or Very sad "Would you take the poster above you (RedSeraph) as a wingman?" nobody wrote: Yes, because in Soviet Russia, vagina fucks you. Also, spinning piledriver.
Last edited by RedSeraph on Mon May 08, 2006 1:38 pm; edited 4 times in total Back to top View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address CertifiedIW Ladder Jumper
PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:37 am Post subject: I can't believe I just read all of that. _________________ I need a new quote for my sig.
Reply with quote
Tanz Forum Prophet
Location: The end of time PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:52 am Post subject: CertifiedIW wrote: I can't believe I just read all of that. Reply with quote
Was it any good? _________________ Tollan wrote: I think the general rule is that if more than 10 people like something, Tanz hates it.
Joined: 30 Aug 2005 Posts: 2032 Location: Exiled from Beardsville.......*CRY*SOB* Face: Ancient Mariner's PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 8:58 am Post subject: Reply with quote No, it was more tragic. I mean unless you want to laugh at my misfortune and stupidity, then I'm sure it's hilarious. You know, in the way that scene from Swingers is, where Mikey keeps calling Nikki back and leaving answering machine messages. _________________ <-Member of the AAA Fan Club. And I'm not just a member... I'm also the president.... because I'm the only member... Crying or Very sad "Would you take the poster above you (RedSeraph) as a wingman?" nobody wrote:
\\Comment by vodkakiller vodkakiller Forum Prophet
Joined: 08 Sep 2003 Posts: 11477 Location: Here Spic wrote: so logistically speaking, does anyone actually apply the ladder theory in real life? When a girl says you should jsut be friends, do you actually say "oh man, i got the KOD! i'm on the friends ladder!"
I think the proper response to the KOD is, "I hope your vagina forgives you one day."
by :Kass Title :Crack Yanker Joined: 15 aug 2005 Posts : 21 Date : 07 Oct 2005 Who here has been hit with a pregnancy scare? Now im almost 95% sure that theres no way i could have impregnated this girl and she went and told me that she tested positive. After putting me through helll for 30minutes (at which point i threatened to murder her), she turned around and convincingly said she was joking. This was after a day or two of me brushing her off (she has a crush on me) Is this a straight case of attention whoring? Or is this bitch out of her fucking mind? \\Comment by Gamerchick My train of thought... she has a crush on you you 2 had sex you brush her off she feels wronged / used she tells you she might be praggie you flip out she is just paying you back the emotional pain she feels ~ attention whore / payback
by :tommy_vercetti Title :Unearthing Hidden Variables Joined: 25 Feb 2005 Posts : 374 Date : 07 Oct 2005 I originally got an account at this site, because I failed miserably with a girl i KNEW wanted me. Im not going to bring up my first post because most of you wont read it, so ill summarize. I met her though a mutual friend, we talked on line a little, then went to phone, then she invited me over to her house to watch a movie on a friday night... Cool It doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out I went over there and did not make a move. Man, I even knew she wanted me. She told her friends and mine. Embarassed . The thing was when i went over there she didnt give me very much eye contact and realativly negative body language. So thats my lame excuse. I left after the movie, more frusterated than ever. Fast forward a year and 8 months. She pokes me over facebook, sends me her sn and cell number. (*She DID NOT invite me as a friend Cool ) So ive talked to her once and she hinted she wants me to take her out for coffee. Good right? Then she mentions her boyfriend is in rehab.... So boys and girls, am i walking into a potential IW trap? \\Comment by MrSabo Yes, but you it's also possible that you can fuck her while daddy's away. \\Comment by Climber/Jumper IW traps only catch IWs. GO in there with an all or nothing attitude and give urself a timeline. Like I wanna make out by the second time I see her. If you let yourself constantly see ehr and "wait" to make a move ur an IW. However, if u set urself up so u won't become one you'll be ok. Follow?
So I've been sitting here getting sober from tonight, and I thought it might be of some help to share my story and thoughts about my own personal experiences. Hi, my name is Andrew Kim. In high school I was a bifocal-wearing sweet sensitive christian korean guy, and man I don't have to tell you that back then I never had any girlfriends nor even held a girl passionately in my arms. Oh man that was a painful and frustrating time in my life, but I look back on my old self at times and can't help but laugh at my innocence, a certain part of me that is now forever lost. In 9th grade, I had oneitis for this hot korean girl. Some of you have seen her pics; I asked her out, I got hurt, my self confidence was shattered blahblah. Didn't get back into the game until 11th grade. My oneitis's best friend asked me out on a date (definite cutie but kinda short), and I even managed to screw that up! Not being able to lead, take initiative, plan the date, and being a wuss. She said something like, "It's ok if you can't figure out the bus routes, I'd love to get lost with you *insert aZn smiley face*" +_+ Moron! How could you screw that up? I did. She flaked, and who can blame her? Finally in 12th grade, I was "dating" this hb8 chinese girl, and by date I mean go to the movies/dinner/rollerblade/bowling/etc. together. We'd talk and get to know each other, be all serious etc. like we were grownups or something, but I could tell she wasn't happy as if she was waiting for something... something more that I was supposed to give her. At the same time, the deepest core of me wanted to fuck her brains out but having mad confidence issues it was so hard for me to man up and make a move. But man my friends were extremely impressed that I "landed" this girl, but after seeing each other for a month or so we stopped. She called me back a few times after we stopped seeing each other; she said she misses me etc. But I didn't know, I didn't WANT to face my fears, step out of my comfort zone, or even admit that I had fear. That was a very lonely, confusing, and painful time for me; it sucked not knowing myself or what I wanted in life and I was alone. Fast forward >> and you see me in first semester of college. At this point the only thing I knew about women was that they go out with cool guys. So I thought long and hard about what it meant to be cool, and how I can be cool in my own style. Hm, so I thought to myself, who am I and what am I about: I play Counter-Strike and got good grades in high school. Counter-Strike is not cool, and everyone here at CU got good grades in hs. WTF? Ok.. ok.. how about partying? Cool people party a lot, so I adopted that into my lifestyle. I thought that if I go to parties three times a week I will become very social,laidback, and well known-- that'll get me the ladies for sure! WRONG. I didn't even really like the party scene, I was uncomfortable partying all the time and pushing myself out of my comfort zone to do so, booze lost its novelty after maybe five hangovers, and weed only made me eat more. Sure it was all recreational and a little fun, but I wasn't happy with all the partying I did, it didn't solve my problem or satiate my desire, women.
At that point, I knew I wanted a woman in my life, but I had this limiting belief that it would be proper and "right" to only get physical with girls while in a relationship. So amidst all that partying, I found a couple girls I wanted as a gf. But I eventually got oneitis for one... and man... she was a warpig LOL (remember her Kevin? LOL). I told myself I loved her personality, and I chased her. My lack of backbone still drove the warpig away from me +_+ Rejection is painful. And it hurts more when you realize what a bitch you were for such an ug. "The game is life; the best things in life take work, commitment to principles, and a chance to lose it all." Words that ring so true that it's painful. Words spoken by your beloved Flame, and passed on to me as I "ran game" endlessly using the "tools" he provided for me. Everyday presented a new challenge, as I pushed myself unwillingly out of my comfort zone. Approach this girl, approach that girl, and constantly learn learn learn from your interactions! Afraid of approaching? Cold approached 500+ girls in a span of 4 months, now I don't think twice about it. Ok so I stand in front of the girl, now what? I used the jealous gf opener to death (got called out on it, not a good night). Repetition and learning is what I lived, day-in and day-out. Then I got my first #-close, and man I was ecstatic (remember Kevin? LOL), but she flaked... Fuck! Start all over again. Then I got my first day2, but that went nowhere... FUCK! Start from the top and improve each step. Then I got my first kiss, whoa-- I never imagined I would EVER get my first kiss. Repeating kissing with other girls became fairly easy, but damn getting beyond 2nd base seemed impossible! Then I seduced a total stranger at the airport, goddamn... I thought I was HOT SHIT. But then right after I went on a cold streak of a month. Then one day when I decided I'm going to focus on inner-game and on improving my own value (now that I had the fundamentals of my outer game down), and then all the limiters came off. It was like Rock Lee taking off his tremendous training weight in order to fight at his true potential. I stopped believing that women were difficult, that getting a bj was way harder than getting a kiss. Compared to the shit that I'm doing now, women are EASY. And once I realized this... women BECAME easy. So now that I realize that I just want lots of sex from high quality women, this part of my life is clearly defined and all good now right? WRONG again. I think the next frontier is a relationship, an idea that I had once abolished out of my mind. But I could not stand here today and say I want a relationship without ever having gone through all the motions and those months of work before. I am tired of one night stands and fuckbuddy situations. I am a romantic at heart and want to LOVE, but now that my innocence has been lost I'll always think of it as just another self inflicted oneitis. There was a time when I despised oneitis, I hated being hurt by the hands of others. Now I crave it, I crave the vulnerability, and the pain is instead inflicted by my own hands now. As much as I hate the pain and stress, it makes me feel alive, vulnerable, and most importantly human. ... what have I gotten myself into?
by :General Grievous Title :Initiate of the Greater Mysteries Joined: 25 May 2005 Posts : 47 Date : 06 Oct 2005 I met a girl at a party... we shot pool for an hour and we seemed to hit it off...she was very affectionate with me, putting her hands all over me, rubbing my back when I made a good shot etc... I later observed that she was feeling up a lot of guys, not just me... anyhow, I made an attempt to pick her up that evening which failed. I got her email address from her website and wrote her. Ok, please tell me how this went wrong: I wrote: Hey Lisa, I enjoyed meeting you at the party... you seem like a really fun person to hang out with. Let me know if you'd like to go out sometime, shoot more pool, get dinner, etc... she wrote: It was nice meeting you too. As you can tell I am an awful pool player compared to you, Pool Shark. I might take you up on that going out thing if you are more specific, I keep a pretty busy schedule.
Until next time, Lisa
I wrote: Well you might lack pool skills, but you certainly make up for it with your good looks. I'll be going to California for 2 weeks so I'll contact you when I return and we'll set a specific time to go out... take care SHE DIDNT RESPOND, SO 2 WEEKS LATER I WROTE:
Hey Lisa,
Im back in town... how's it goin? Want to have lunch next week? Maybe Friday? NO RESPONSE
Ok, where did I fuck up? \\Comment by Neon I browsed through it and you're leaving things too open. You need to be all: "Bitch we're going out wensday and I'm going to fuck you in the eye and don't cry and shit cause I'm going to kill you afterwards." Instead you were: "Uh...erm...uh.....we could go out friday....if not maybe thursdayy...but if not thursday maybe wensday...uh...uh...uh.." \\Comment by Zepp3lin why didn't you get her number while you were at the party instead of covert stalking to her website and getting her email adress. \\Comment by Aussie You basically said to her... I think you're attractive and thus I am going to pursue you. There will be no challenge. You don't have to do anything. You can sit there twiddling your thumbs while I try to make you like me. Get it? We're here to help, not fuck you around Smile
Part I In HS (which started in 7th grade for me... my school was weird like that), I was a 5'6" Korean kid. I was chubby. I alternated between tight jeans, Dockers khakis, and cargo shorts. I always wore a t-shirt. I wore bifocals. Yeah. Bifocals. I was always a sensitive and nice guy in high school. I was cocky sometimes, often very loud and boisterous... but when it came to women, I was completely inept. With girls, I could joke and kid, but I could never take it anywhere (sexually/romantically) because I just DID NOT HAVE A FUCKING CLUE about what I was supposed to do. I guess it sorta stemmed from my upbringing. Don't get me wrong... I love my parents. But they're Korean and they had a tough early life in Korea, where they were the only people who were ultimately there for each other. The Korean aspect of my childhood meant I was totally clueless about sex till my sex ed class in 5th grade, sexual media wasn't allowed to be watched in the house, etc. Basically, it was a subject my parents never addressed. Also, they very strongly believe in true love and lasting commitment. It's all that kept them sane in their earlier years in the US, when they didn't have many friends or social acquaintances. Only each other. And because they were/are so in love, they taught me and my brother to respect love (and consequently, women) just as much as they did/do. In 8th grade (my hs starts in 7th grade), I met this girl. And fell for her HARD. We took the same subway home together and had the same last period class, so I ended up spending time with her EVERY DAY, just chilling on the subway and talking before she got off at her stop and I got off at mine. Her name was Irene, and she was a sweet, wonderful Christian girl with that cute, girl-next-door beauty that just makes you want to unleash the sexual animal that must be hiding somewhere within that innocent body. Yeah. I didn't really have these kinda thoughts back then. Eventually, (about 3 wks in) we started talking about people we were interested in. She wouldn't tell me who she liked, but kept asking me about my own interests. Finally, I man'd up and told her. In an e-mail. It read (almost close to verbatim here, though I'm pulling from memory so you'll have to excuse me): The email wrote: TO: Irene FROM: Kevin (that's me) There was once this boy named KK and he knew a girl named IC. They went home together every day and talked about a lot of things. She didn't know, but KK was crazy about IC. He thought she was just amazing... but never told her. Till now.
I shit you not. That's how the 13yo Flame told his one-itis he liked her.
Strangely enough... she bought it. She was into me. I attribute it to her innocent upbringing and lack of romantic experience. Either way, she told me she liked me back and that she basically thought of me as her bf. I was on top of the world. But I was lost. I mean... where did I go from here? What was I supposed to do? Did I just start touching her, holding her hand, etc. from now on? Should I kiss her the next day? WTF were you supposed to do when a girl told you she liked you back? Unable to come up with a satisfactory solution, I did nothing. We just... went on the EXACT same way. Going home together, talking, maybe leaning on each other once in a while, but not much physical contact. We continued talking every night on the phone till late hours. This went on for about another week... until she called me one night and the following convo ensued: Her: Kev... you know about us... I don't know what to do. I like you... but I'm also worried about our friendship. Because before I started liking you, we were friends first, right? Me: Absolutely. Her: So... what should we do? I mean... I guess a part of me wants you to be my bf, but what if we end up like all those other couples and break up? Then we'll lose our friendship too.... I don't know what to do. Me: Listen, babe... it's true there's a chance we could lose it all... but I know we.. us... you and I have the chance to make something great and passionate happen between us. I'm willing to take the necessary risks to give US a shot. Are you with me? Just kidding. What I actually did was... well, I took a pair of scissors, took out my dick, and cut off my scrotum. Then I told her: Me: (for real this time) Yeah. I agree. I think we should be friends for a while longer... there's always time to make it happen, but I don't want to risk our friendship. Yeah, that's right. I IW'd myself. There's this sweet, beautiful girl who wants me and is just asking for assurance because she's so inexperienced and just as worried as I am... and I pull this shit. All she wanted was assurance that it would work. And I told her let's stay friends. Excuse me for a minute. DJFLAKSDJFLKSADJLFKJLSDOHMYFUCKINGGODAKLDSJFKLSADJFLKJLCO CKFUCKSHITANUSDFIKAJLSDKFLJKL!i@joriFOEJW908347529347U9034JO0 Back. So basically... this continued for the entire year. Of course my feelings didn't change. Neither did hers for that matter, but we never went any further than talking and hanging
out. I bought her flowers on V-day. She said thanks, flashed me a brilliant smile, there was a moment of silence... she leaned in... I leaned in... then I said, "Cool" and ran. I didn't know how you were supposed to kiss a girl. I decided to put the problem off till later. Score. At the end of 8th grade, on the VERY last day of classes, we took the subway together for the last time that school year. My stop was coming up and I decided it was time to deal with this whole kissing-shit. So I told her to close her eyes. Just as the sliding door to my subway stop was opening, I leaned in towards that sweet, beautiful face. Then I remembered I had cut my balls off a while back and I possibly couldn't act like a man. So I kissed her on the cheek and... yeah, you guessed it, I ran again. I'm tired of writing now so I'll continue this story later Smile _________________ "Falling in love is one of life's pleasures." - Juggler "I don't care how hot she is... Some guy, somewhere, right now, is fucking tired of her shit." - Philos ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Serpent wrote: Flame wrote:
I'm tired of writing now so I'll continue this story later Smile His story is so hardcore he has to take breaks inbetween or else he might CRAI! Shocked
This is truer than you know. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Part II I'm back. So... where was I? Oh yeah. Irene. Yeah. So I kissed her. She called me that night. We had a discussion about it. I ONCE AGAIN reassured her that staying friends was the best idea and the kiss was a bad idea. We still liked each other, but we were just going to be friends... And so it went on. And on.
And on. My relationship with this girl did not change for 5 years. True story. For 5 years, I took the subway home with her, bought her flowers on Valentine's Day, helped her through her emotional problems with various things, talked for hours on end with her, and never made a move again. In 9th grade however, a few things happened. For one thing, I encountered my first true OB threat. Near the end of my 9th grade year, Irene had a skiing accident. She broke three ribs, one of which poked a lung. She was hospitalized and many were the friends and family who visited her, her being such a sweet and well-liked girl. Due to family commitment, I couldn't visit her at the hospital (she was in a hospital near the skiing resort, which was a few states away), but sent flowers. So she got to spend a lot of alone time with the people who DID visit, including a certain young man from church named Josh. Now that I think back on it, he wasn't really a true OB. He was just more OB than I was (which definitely isn't saying much). Instead of khakis or tight jeans, he wore baggy dark jeans. Instead of a comb-over, he had spikey hair. Instead of no experience with girls, he had had a couple gfs. Instead of being good at Starcraft, he was good at the guitar. He was also a year older and carried a knife. Josh spent a lot of time visiting her and keeping her company. He had decided he was into her and was intent on winning her over. She ended up liking him... but also told me she was still into me. I was confused, but didn't press the issue. Eventually however, the whole thing began to spiral out of control. Josh was not only intent on winning Irene's heart, he was also psychotic. He felt that any guy in Irene's life who wasn't her father or her cousins (she had no brothers) was a threat. He began sending threats of physical violence to all the guys in her life. With me being "that guy she's so close to and likes a lot," I got special treatment. For the next four years, every time I signed onto AIM, I got hit with a random IM from a dud SN. The messages were usually short and simple, containing statements such as: "Dude, back off. You don't want to mess with me." "I'm telling you, stay away for your own good. I roll with the bestest [sic] and you don't want to mess with me." "Meet me tomorrow at the courtyard at 12:15. BE THERE."
Needless to say, these threats were never fulfilled. However, the very fact that he was being so overwhelmingly OB and gangster caused Irene's life to be filled with such delicious stress and drama that she couldn't bear to cut him out of her life. We settled into this very odd love triangle where neither of us (Josh nor I) got any (because she was so adamantly Christian and inexperienced), but neither did either of us get really rejected. Irene told me she wasn't into me anymore at the end of 9th grade, but I figured she didn't know what she was talking about. Afterall, I still liked her. Meanwhile, I still bought her flowers on Valentine's Day. I also walked home with her and called her every other night. Yeah. 5 years. Oh, if only my love life had stayed this simple. But a new variable was about to enter the scene. During my 9th grade year, while the drama with Josh was taking off and Irene was falling madly in love with her first taste of OB and growing steadily less attracted to me, I met a girl in my class. Her name was Nisi. She would the greatest and last female friend I ever had. (In case you don't know, this means I'm going to the kitchen to make some food. BBL.) _________________ "Falling in love is one of life's pleasures." - Juggler "I don't care how hot she is... Some guy, somewhere, right now, is fucking tired of her shit." - Philos
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Part III Yeah, I'm back. Sorry, I was busy playing Starcraft all day. Gotta train for WCG. LOL. So. Nisi. She was in many of my classes in 9th grade and we had a few mutual friends so we began talking. At first, it seemed like the acquaintance would go nowhere. For the most part, she hung out with the coolest people in school. Her best friend since childhood was the hottest, richest, and one of the most popular girls in my entire high school class of 150 people. She (Nisi) lived in a glitzy, luxurious apartment complex in midtown Manhattan. She often took trips to China and Mongolia. I, on the other hand, chilled with a small group of select friends. It was mostly comprised of girls, but none of them were amazingly attractive or super popular. I lived in a pretty
normal house in Queens. My two best friends were: 1) a 6' huge Korean guy with a large mouth and a penchant for racial slurs, and 2) a skinnyass Chinese kid with a sarcastic tongue. All three of us were crazy about computer games (me about SC, they about Counter-strike). I don't quite remember how it happened, but for some reason, despite all of our differences in background and social status, Nisi and I hit it off. I think it was mostly due to the fact that she was a very down-to-earth person, with a gift for making people comfortable around her. Instead of locking up with shyness as I often did around strangers (especially female strangers), she actually made me feel at ease enough to express my fun, witty side. We began sitting next to each other in our classes, something which progressed into chilling together during free periods and going to get food together during our lunch hour. We grew VERY close. But I was always convinced she was nothing more than my closest female friend. My Chinese friend, Yale, often remarked to me that I should do her up the butt, but I always rebuked him, telling him that we were friends and nothing more. I think, for most of my high school life, it WAS true. I was so romantically preoccupied with wooing Irene, that Nisi was nothing more than a close friend for most those years. Often, I would sign online at night after finishing my hw and, after closing the IM window containing Josh's usual threats, I'd talk to Nisi. We'd talk about a variety of subjects but they were mostly centered around either my or her romantic problems. I don't know if I'd go so far as to say I was her IW, because it was quite a fair trade. Many hours were spent with her listening to and consoling me as I moaned on and on about my problems with Irene, my heartache, my indecision, my fears. And I also helped her out with the various guys that came and left her life. Eventually, senior year rolled around. We graduated. All was dandy. I wrote a RIDICULOUSLY sappy and horrible message in Irene's yearbook. I can't even remember most of what I wrote. I honestly cannot force myself to remember. It annotated the course of our relationship over 5 years. It promised my undying devotion. It had diagrams. It spanned several pages. Yeah. Let's leave that alone. I also wrote a very passionate message in Nisi's yearbook. I told her she was one of my greatest friends, that I was unbelievably grateful for the times we had shared. She cried when she read it. We hugged. As summer started, we started hanging out more than ever. After a month of summer, both Nisi and Irene left the country to visit. Irene went on a mission trip. Nisi went to visit relatives in China. I worked as an SAT tutor in the city by day and chilled in the city by night. We all had college to look forward to in the fall and life was GOOD.
While both Nisi and Irene were temporarily out of my life, I began thinking. No, let me rephrase that. I began stewing around in my own emotions. I started to MISS Nisi like CRAZYYY. What made it worse was that she wrote me regularly. I mean REAL letters. Thick bundles of sheets, all hand-written, usually with pictures and little doodles showing me how much she missed me. I began to forget about Irene and started to think more and more about the one girl who actually had BEEN THERE for me for most of my high school life. One day, while on the bus coming back home from work, I realized that it was less than a week before Nisi was to come back from China. Summer was winding down. Sitting on that cramped bus, wedged between an aZn thug and a massive grandmother holding a baby, I realized my true love. It wasn't Irene. It was the sweet, wonderful girl who had kept me sane for the past four years. I made up my mind. I wasn't going to make the same mistake I had with Irene. This time, I'd take charge and make my intentions loud and clear. I couldn't wait for Nisi to get back. _________________ "Falling in love is one of life's pleasures." - Juggler "I don't care how hot she is... Some guy, somewhere, right now, is fucking tired of her shit." - Philos Part III Yeah, I'm back. Sorry, I was busy playing Starcraft all day. Gotta train for WCG. LOL. So. Nisi. She was in many of my classes in 9th grade and we had a few mutual friends so we began talking. At first, it seemed like the acquaintance would go nowhere. For the most part, she hung out with the coolest people in school. Her best friend since childhood was the hottest, richest, and one of the most popular girls in my entire high school class of 150 people. She (Nisi) lived in a glitzy, luxurious apartment complex in midtown Manhattan. She often took trips to China and Mongolia. I, on the other hand, chilled with a small group of select friends. It was mostly comprised of girls, but none of them were amazingly attractive or super popular. I lived in a pretty normal house in Queens. My two best friends were: 1) a 6' huge Korean guy with a large mouth and a penchant for racial slurs, and 2) a skinnyass Chinese kid with a sarcastic tongue. All three of us were crazy about computer games (me about SC, they about Counter-strike). I don't quite remember how it happened, but for some reason, despite all of our differences in background and social status, Nisi and I hit it off. I think it was mostly due to the fact that she was a very down-to-earth person, with a gift for making people comfortable around her. Instead of locking up with shyness as I often did around
strangers (especially female strangers), she actually made me feel at ease enough to express my fun, witty side. We began sitting next to each other in our classes, something which progressed into chilling together during free periods and going to get food together during our lunch hour. We grew VERY close. But I was always convinced she was nothing more than my closest female friend. My Chinese friend, Yale, often remarked to me that I should do her up the butt, but I always rebuked him, telling him that we were friends and nothing more. I think, for most of my high school life, it WAS true. I was so romantically preoccupied with wooing Irene, that Nisi was nothing more than a close friend for most those years. Often, I would sign online at night after finishing my hw and, after closing the IM window containing Josh's usual threats, I'd talk to Nisi. We'd talk about a variety of subjects but they were mostly centered around either my or her romantic problems. I don't know if I'd go so far as to say I was her IW, because it was quite a fair trade. Many hours were spent with her listening to and consoling me as I moaned on and on about my problems with Irene, my heartache, my indecision, my fears. And I also helped her out with the various guys that came and left her life. Eventually, senior year rolled around. We graduated. All was dandy. I wrote a RIDICULOUSLY sappy and horrible message in Irene's yearbook. I can't even remember most of what I wrote. I honestly cannot force myself to remember. It annotated the course of our relationship over 5 years. It promised my undying devotion. It had diagrams. It spanned several pages. Yeah. Let's leave that alone. I also wrote a very passionate message in Nisi's yearbook. I told her she was one of my greatest friends, that I was unbelievably grateful for the times we had shared. She cried when she read it. We hugged. As summer started, we started hanging out more than ever. After a month of summer, both Nisi and Irene left the country to visit. Irene went on a mission trip. Nisi went to visit relatives in China. I worked as an SAT tutor in the city by day and chilled in the city by night. We all had college to look forward to in the fall and life was GOOD. While both Nisi and Irene were temporarily out of my life, I began thinking. No, let me rephrase that. I began stewing around in my own emotions. I started to MISS Nisi like CRAZYYY. What made it worse was that she wrote me regularly. I mean REAL letters. Thick bundles of sheets, all hand-written, usually with pictures and little doodles showing me how much she missed me. I began to forget about Irene and started to think more and more about the one girl who actually had BEEN THERE for me for most of my high school life. One day, while on the bus coming back home from work, I realized that it was less than a week before Nisi was to come back from China. Summer was winding down. Sitting on
that cramped bus, wedged between an aZn thug and a massive grandmother holding a baby, I realized my true love. It wasn't Irene. It was the sweet, wonderful girl who had kept me sane for the past four years. I made up my mind. I wasn't going to make the same mistake I had with Irene. This time, I'd take charge and make my intentions loud and clear. I couldn't wait for Nisi to get back. _________________ "Falling in love is one of life's pleasures." - Juggler "I don't care how hot she is... Some guy, somewhere, right now, is fucking tired of her shit." - Philos
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Part IV Aight. So where was I? Oh yeah. Summer. Nisi. Newfound realization of my love for her. Holla. Anyway, I was missing her dreadfully now. She wrote me constantly and I wrote back. Like, true old-school letters - multiple pages, hand-written, usually with a small present or picture or trinket. I think I still have them somewhere. Soon enough, most of the summer was over and mid-August rolled around. She came back and we immediately arranged a day to hang out before we had to head for our respective colleges. It was an unspoken understanding that it would probably be the last time we could see each other before we left for our universities (me in Michigan, her in Massachusetts). I spent the days leading up to our last day of hanging out rolling around in my own doubt and trepidation. I mean, I hadn't really had a stellar record with women... my friends were of no help, not even my two aforementioned closest friends. Keith would just start laughing whenever I brought up the subject, then make fun of me about my taste in women while reassuring me that he was actually hoping for the best for me. Yale would just say, "Kevin... if only you had done this shit earlier, you could've had wild animal sex with her for all the of high school. Now, you've got like... a week left." The day finally came. We met up near her apartment and did our normal thing. We bought tickets to a movie, then went to hang out at the nearby bookstore till the movie time. We cuddled together and looked a book full of puppy pictures. Yeah. That's right. Puppy pictures.
I don't even remember what movie we watched. All that occupied my frantic mind was how I was going to tell her. Should I just... say it? Should I bring it up indirectly? Should I kiss her? AHHHHHH!!!! Now that I think about, there WAS one awkward moment at the movie theater that should've warned me that not everything was going to work out. We went up to buy tickets. Usually, we took turns paying or just paid separately. On this particular occasion, we were paying separately. However, the cashier woman just looked at me playfully and said, "Oh, come on. Pay for your girlfriend too." .... Yeah. I'm sure you can imagine the awkward chuckles from all parties. Anyway, evening rolled around. It was around 11:00PM, I was walking her back to her apartment. Her apartment building is in a very nice neighborhood, and there happens to be a mini-plaza of sorts a couple blocks from it. There are stone benches and little shops around. We got some ice cream and sat on one of the benches, not wanting the night to end. By this time, I was agonizing over how I was going to tell her. I decided to go for the smooth approach. (God, I don't even know how I got the balls to do this shit back then...) Me: *sigh* Her: What's wrong? Me: I'm just thinking.... Her: About what? Me: Well... I don't know. Do you think friends should tell each other everything? Her: I guess it depends... but you can tell me anything. Me: Okay, well... let me tell you what I want to do right now. Her: What? And then... I leaned in and kissed her. The End.
Just kidding. LOL. As I kissed her, she murmured, "Kev...." and her lips caressed mine. It was the sweetest moment of my life. Then came the talking.
We talked. And talked. And talked and talked and talked. About where to go from here. What should we do? Should we even do anything? Blah blah blah. I was still in a haze about the kiss, I didn't even try to lead the whole thing anywhere. I was in la-la land while she finally said: "Well, I think... if we were to start a relationship, I'd want everything to be perfect. I want both of us to be ready and nothing to go wrong if we were to be in a relationship. I think, right now, with both of us going to college and being so far away... I don't want us to start like this. It'd be so hard." I agreed and took her home, while she promised to call me the next morning (the morning she was leaving). I floated home on a cloud. ******* A couple of weeks later, I went to begin my freshman year at the University of Michigan. I didn't know anyone there (not many people from my hs went to UofM), so I joined a lot of clubs. I pursued an interest my parents hadn't allowed me to: boxing. I started pledging for a fraternity. Life was fun. Except my love life. That was just a mixture of agony and pleasure. I was CONSTANTLY thinking and dreaming about Nisi. About when I would see her again. She wasn't discouraging this at all. In fact, SHE called ME almost EVERY day. She was having a bit of trouble getting settled and was feeling lonely. The months rolled on. I got initiated into my fraternity. I went to a few boxing tournaments. I aced my classes. And the calls began tapering off. I began calling HER. She would always take time to talk to me, but it was often in a distracted tone. She was now well involved in a bunch of activities and had started to get into the groove at her school. I began to feel like she didn't need me anymore. Agony. Around that time, I found this site and posted a query about my situation. A certain poster named "sacrilicious" told me it was basically over and that I had fucked it up beyond all belief. His reply saddened me, but I figured he didn't know what the fuck he was talking about. However, it did convince me that I needed to actively deal with this.. and her. I decided to settle the whole thing once and for all. I didn't have time to see her over winter break (Michigan's winter break is like 2 wks long, and her school's wasn't long either). but I told her I'd visit her next semester. Michigan with its retarded schedule has its "Spring Break" at the end of February. I bought a couple of bus tickets and settled for a longgg ride to Massachusetts to spend a weekend with the love of my life. As many of you know, I'm friends with korosu IRL. He sometimes jokes with me, saying that I'm his mentor, but regardless, I respect him for having the balls and sheer tenacity to improve himself against all odds. However, we both agree that this sort of determination
is rare among guys... unless they've hit rock bottom and felt the pure, unadulterated agony that women and love can sometimes pierce you with. That weekend... I hit rock bottom. _________________ "Falling in love is one of life's pleasures." - Juggler "I don't care how hot she is... Some guy, somewhere, right now, is fucking tired of her shit." - Philos
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------That mention of sacriligious was so epic. IT was like watching one of the first three episodes of starwars and you get that glimpse of one of the characters from episodes 4-6 for the first time. _________________ "pls post better...k thx." - The Rock I just got off an 11-hr work shift. I'm tired. And this part is especially tough for me to write. So I'm going to make it short and simple. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Part V A Guide on How To Hit Rock Bottom 1) Travel a total of 20 hours to see the love of your life. I hitched a ride with a fraternity bro and took turns driving for the entire 11 hour trip from Ann Arbor, Michigan to New York City. I paid $50 for gas. Upon arriving in NYC, I slept for 2 hours before forcing myself awake to catch an early bus ride to Boston. From Boston, I traveled about 2 more hours to get to her school. 2) Get picked up late by aforementioned love of your life. This includes waiting all alone in a shady bus-stop in Bumfuck, Mass. while waiting for your girl, who arrives 30 min. late riding shotgun in the car of a muscled, lacrosseplaying wrestler who jokes around and kinos her waayyyyy too much for your liking.
3) Arrive on campus, where you are promptly introduced then excluded from your love's social circle. Though they are all very nice, all conversational material consists entirely of inside jokes and school-related discussions. No one really asks you for your opinion.
Nuff said. I was just getting antsy for dinner at this point. 4) Go to dinner with the girl you've been dreaming about for months. [Insert last two sentences of Step 3 here] The food was excellent. However, she didn't have an extra meal credit to feed me, especially since there are like no restaurants there and everyone decided to eat in at the dorms. I got the meal credit from aforementioned lacrosstler (lacrosse + wrestling). Nice. 5) During dinner, get a brief validation spike through the attentions of a different girl who had a crush on you in HS. Too bad she's a 7. On a 1000-point scale I mean. That was cool. .... Yeah. 6) Go back to your love's dorm. Watch some random stand-up comedian do his thing on DVD on a couch with her in the dark lounge area outside of her room. Sounds pretty sweet, huh? Well, let me go into a bit more detail. I was sitting on the left edge of the couch. She was sitting to my right, leaning slightly on me, but not really touching with any part of her body except the side of her arm. To her right is the lacrosstler. They're holding hands. She's leaning her head on his shoulder. I hear snatches of giggling that are not in tune with the comedian's jokes on the television screen. ... Sigh, for the sake of my beloved fans on IW.com, I guess I'll go on. 7) You're tired from a long trip. Go to sleep. On a dirty, scrounged-up mattress with no sheets, no pillow, no blankets, placed on the floor outside her room. She sleeps inside the room. So does the lacrosstler. I must say, I am an excellent packer. My backpack made an amazing pillow. I don't want to go into too much depth about what was running through my head. And I can't really describe what was happening in my heart because (excuse the homosexual writing here) I just felt like there was a vacuum in my chest that had just sucked all my innards into oblivion. Yes... Flame... advice-giver, mentor, "master PUA," whatever the fuck you wanna call me... I fell asleep with tears in my eyes. I guess there's not much more to write. I cut the trip short and left the next day. I don't know if I should continue, because this is about where that stage of my story (and my life) ends. If you want me to write about what happened next, just say so... but really, this segment ends here.
Yep, that's my story. That summer, Flame was born. _________________ "Falling in love is one of life's pleasures." - Juggler "I don't care how hot she is... Some guy, somewhere, right now, is fucking tired of her shit." - Philos
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LOL No. I think the last words I ever said to her were in my farewell to her that morning as I got in the cab to get to the bus station. Part VI "If you keep doing what you've done, you'll keep getting what you've gotten." This is kinda weird, trying to remember these first fumbling days. Right at this moment, I can tell you the different marker points of BT, I can explain false disqualification theory and argue why demonstrations of lower value are actually DHVs. Push-pull, SOI, c/f, hook point, IVD routines, trust test, tension test, frame control, takeaways, 90 degree approach angles, hoop theory... I can tell you what pAImAI is and debate the finer points of that term's validity. This is insane. Honestly, I don't even NEED all this... YOU don't need all this... but these things keep popping up in my head as I try to recall those first few days... those first weeks... months.... SO. I had decided, right? Spring 2005, I was like "Fuck yeah, no more of this SHIT. I'm going to be fucking awesome with women... I'm going to solve this mystery... ENOUGH PAIN." No more doing what I've done... things were going to change. Except for one little problem... WHERE THE FUCK DO I START? It's funny because as a guy, everyone expects you, as a man, to somehow automatically know how to deal with women. How to get girls, how to act around them, etc. Or, if you DO ask for help, you'll get told the general idea of it ("be kind" "treat her like a princess" "be patient" "put her first" "try to understand her feelings" "be a MAN") but no one ever teaches you what to DO. At WORST, they will say "Be yourself" and you are left thinking "WTF DOES THAT MEAN?!"
I mean... when I first learned to ride a bike, no one said "Yeah... maintain balance between the two wheels and don't crash. you know... be sensitive to it. treat it right." If someone did, they'd be considered a LOUSY teacher of riding a bike. No, when my father taught me how to ride a bike, he said "use the handlebar to turn, don't lean too much on either side, don't twist the handlebar too far to either side or you will twist the front wheel around too much and you'll fall." I used to think you had to figure it out yourself... you know... learn for yourself, by yourself. So I did this. I learned from my friends, my female friends, movies, TV, my pastor, etc. Except... it didn't take me ANYWHERE. All I had gotten for my trouble was a ton of heartache. So... what was I going to do? I found ASF in the weirdest place possible.... a Starcraft forum. Some fucker posted asking for advice with girls and some guy posted the link to ASF. The link (and the site) was subsequently scorned and boo'd on the SC forum, but I figured I had nothing to lose and went in. I'll admit it. The very first time I clicked into ASF, I was SCARED. It was a weird sort of fright... disgust and bewilderment and wariness all jumbled in my head. I mean... wtf? What the hell was a #-close? Wings? Targets? Obstacles? After about 20 min. of reading the forum, I was about to close the window and play some SC, until I accidentally saw the signature of one of the posters there. The sig was a quote of someone called "Mystery" and I'll write it here, because it still resounds with me to this day: "If you can't attract a woman, you are, by dictionary definition, sterile. Nature will unapologetically weed your genes out of existence if you don't take action and learn how to attract women now." A bit dramatic, eh? But it hooked me. I didn't like much of the forum, but I wanted to see who Mystery was. So I downloaded his archive and began reading. I read and read. The sun was coming up when I finished his massive archive. Instead of going to sleep even at that late (or early ;p) hour, I downloaded his VA Handbook and read that too. I was obsessed. But... come on... there's something appealing about it, isn't there? Nerds... losers... dorks... using the only advantage they have, their intelligence, to fucking break down the mystery of social/male-female interaction into its constituent atoms... to analyze and memorize and internalize. You ever see that episode of "Family Matters" where Steve Urkel makes a scientific machine which turns him into the ultra-cool Stephan? That's what ASF appeared to be... Nowadays, it's all full of marketers and con-artists and keyboard jockeys thinking they're the shit. Now that I think about it, it was like that a year ago too. LOL. But anyway... it
was all fresh and humble and secret back then. The hidden elixir that'll grant you your wish... if you can slay the dragon. A couple weeks after finding ASF, I left for Korea. I knew it was going to be crazy... I had no idea. (I know I'm ending on an odd note, but I'm going to take a shower. So I will definitely keep writing and post again later tonight. Sorry.) _________________ "Falling in love is one of life's pleasures." - Juggler "I don't care how hot she is... Some guy, somewhere, right now, is fucking tired of her shit." - Philos
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Part VII So whats the KEY to seeing the pickup game CLEARLY??? Existing in YOUR reality, and not the reality of OTHERS. Only then can you see things CLEARLY make adjustments, calibrate, innovate, experiment, etc etc etc Because I live in, and project, my OWN REALITY. I am INTERNALLY centered, not EXTERNALLY centered. Look at Mystery. The guy has been on the internet for years, but has barely absorbed one single damned thing that he didnt invent himself. Of the few odd things from others that he DID absorb, hes literally 100% CONVINCED that he made up HIMSELF. Certifiably DELUSIONAL. And YET, this guy is the absolute pickup MASTER. Does he piss people off with that attitude?? YES. But who gives a fuck??? While everyone else is moaning and groaning, hes busy busting his load on the face of the latest covergirl(s) of Penthouse Magazine, or whatever flavour of the week it is this time..... He is ULTIMATELY ATTRACTIVE to women as a result, because despite his very average looks, he is INCORRIGIBLY internally centered. And many of you will walk away having read this, INSPIRED, thinking that you can ACQUIRE or INTERNALIZE this reality-asserting internally centered mentality into your essence.. However, this is both WRONG and IMPOSSIBLE. You cannot INTERNALIZE this attitude, because its something that is ALREADY WITHIN YOU. Its something that is STIFLED and CONFINED by your PRIDE and your PERSONA. In order to get IN TOUCH with that which is WITHIN YOU
ALREADY, you need to L-E-T == G-O of your ARTIFICIAL PERSONA that you have CREATED, and get to the true ESSENCE of what you are. You cannot ACQUIRE this way of thinking. You can only LET GO of that which STIFLES it. Excerpted from TylerDurden's "Most Spastic Late Night Ramblings Pt. 1" Korea. As soon as my plane touched down on the runway at Incheon Airport, I knew something was different. I was as physically far away from all my limiting beliefs and messy past as I could be. All I had to do was take this God-given opportunity and set my mind straight. Get some skeelz. LOL... I still remember the very first time I went off to a club with the intention of picking up chicks... I went with a bunch of friends from the international studies program I was involved in at one of the Korean universities. The program was totally free for me (I had qualified for it through a scholarship thing) and so I really had no intention of studying hard... I just wanted to have fun. So the very first night we landed, a group of us hit the town. We hit up an area called Itaewon. If you've ever been to Korea, you know that there is a strong US military presence there. Itaewon is probably the most "American" district of Seoul... it's flooded with GIs who are on leave or just out for a night on the town. So it has a lot of English-speaking bars/clubs, etc. God... haha, I mean, I had partied a bit in college and considered myself a much more social person but... damn.... that first night was rough. Every hot girl I saw, I mind-fucked myself out of approaching. I avoided the dance floor like it was some quarantined plagueinfested ghetto. Due to the lower age limit, I just kept hitting up the bar to get "just one more drink." I remember seeing one really tall cutie sitting in a corner area with a couple of friends. Easily one of the hottest chicks in the club. I'm thinking to myself, "Okay... okay... what would Mystery do? A 10 is not harder than a 7.. just different... but wait... I've never even fucked a 7... shit, okay, okay, 3, 2, 1.... GO" And I just forced my legs to start moving... And the FEAR just hit.... For those of you who have ever tried cold approaching a chick... you know what I'm talking about when I say the FEAR. It's like... a bucket of ice water poured over your nuts, and you start feeling little areas of muscle TENSING up at random parts of your body. You don't know how to arrange your body. Your limbs seem so... UNWIELDY. Your clothes aren't cool enough. Your hair is too short, too long, too gelled, too plain. And your eyes... you don't where to rest them... should you focus on hers? No, too scary.... too hard.... look PAST her? No.... too much interest.... okay, okay, focus on the ground. The ground is SAFE.
Six feet... five.... four.... out of the corner of my eye, I see a guy jump up near the girl, throw an arm over her shoulder, and start laughing his ass off. They look like friends. My body just automatically swivels 90 degrees to the right and aborts. Like a fucking robot or some shit. I quickly withdraw to one end of the bar, where I drink three more beers (ironically, called OB lager LOL) before convincing my friends to go home. Haha... so that was the "great" Flame's first night out... I acted like chicken shit and drank a gallon of beer. Smoooth.... Nerds... losers... dorks... that's what a lot of us are. We aren't fucking cool, we aren't the ladies men, we aren't pimps or gangstas. We don't have that natural charm. But we have our intelligence. We have our pride. Use what you have. From then on, I forced myself to go out every night with my friends. I have a very strong sense of pride... I can take jokes like the best of them, but I ABSOLUTELY HATE doing things that make me cringe at MYSELF. Like backing down from challenges.... I just can't do it most of the time. Haha I mean, I've learned to delegate importance and how to ignore stupid taunts, but if I challenge myself.... I must do my best. But I was having trouble FORCING myself to take action. It was like... every time I tried to tell myself to do something, a small voice in the back of my head would tell me "You don't need this..." "There are other girls..." "What about that one girl you know..." "You could get her if you really wanted..." My solution was to start running my mouth off at my friends. LOL. Me: "Yo, just point out ANY girl here. I'll go talk to her. I'm mad bored...." Friend: "Haha, liar." Me: "No, I'm serious. Just point, I'll go. You can watch me crash and burn for fun. But I'm so boredddd" Friend: "LOL fine..... that one" *points* This is how I got started. Just... kept forcing myself into positions where I just COULD NOT back down. Haha.... I remember the first cold set I ever opened.... lol.... Me: "YO!" Her: "... What?" Me: "..... sup..." (*oh fuck, what do I say? Shit, wtf is my cheatsheet. fuckfuckfuckfuck28349278394pgs of asf archives and you can't remember a single opener you stupid fuck*) Her: "What?" Me: "Nice meeting you. Bye."
I wish I could provide a graceful summary of those first couple weeks... but really, there's not much to say. I fucking SUCKED. LOL. But I mean.... haha, to get better, you gotta get out there and take your swings. Like boxing... the very first time you spar, I PROMISE you'll feel like a dumb, clumsy fuck. Those gloves feel like they weigh 100 lbs each, your punches seem so weak, your chest is burning, and your feet don't know which way is which. You just feel like a thousand-pound retard floating around a sea of molasses, frantically trying to damage an illusion. Eventually though, around the middle of the second week, I could actually talk to hot chicks without staring at the floor. I just focused on their noses. Haha. This is actually pretty useful if you have probs maintaining eye contact, though just focusing on one eye then the the other is better. Up till this time, I had mostly been hanging out w/my roommate and a few other friends from the USA. However, this program being an international one, Korean and non-Korean students from all over the world began arriving. It was around the end of the second week that a brother and sister arrived from Switzerland. His name was Jona, and he's one of the coolest dudes I've ever met. Her name was Caroline, and though I no longer wear her ring over my heart, I'll always remember that face, those lips, that body... and smile. _________________ "Falling in love is one of life's pleasures." - Juggler "I don't care how hot she is... Some guy, somewhere, right now, is fucking tired of her shit." - Philos
Joined: 11 Oct 2005 Posts: 887 Location: NYC or Ann Arbor, MI PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2006 6:22 pm Post subject: Reply with quote Mitey wrote: I think it'd be great, people like Flame and such give out some missions for people to go out on.
Haha, well, I actually DO do that... just on a one-on-one basis. I remember when I FIRST started helping someone out, the whole system was messy and unorganized as hell... lol korosu will tell you, I was a horrible teacher, I just yelled at him a lot and gave random longass speeches filled with incomprehensible jargon and complicated concepts ;p
I guess if I actually organize all this shit and make a decent step-by-step thing, I'll post it up in GLD or something. KingofIW wrote: hey flame. For conversations sake, do you think now, with the mad skills you have developed, could get your former IP's? Have you seen them since you became pimpdaddy? I'd like to see that story if you got it.
A friend actually challenged me to pick up Irene and make her my trophy gf for the summer. I'm still thinking about it... mebbe. She's really not sexually experienced at all so I think it would kinda suck for me in the long run... maybe in a couple years. We'll see. LOL I still have her under "Oneitis" in my phonebook. She calls me once in a while to check up, but I don't really talk to her much. I haven't talked to Nisi in over a year. Part VIII Am I more than you bargained for yet? I've been dying to tell you anything you want to hear. 'Cause that's just who I am this week. Lie in the grass, next to the mausoleum. I'm just a notch in your bedpost, But you're just a line in a song. -from Sugar, Were Going Down by Fallout Boy He, whom the gods love, grows young," said the ancient Greeks. Look at that picture of the young you! Now look in the mirror. The blazing light in the youth's eyes, the curiosity, and the wonders he saw at Nature and life, the joy he loved at any occasion! Are they still part of you? Look into the mirror. Is the same light in your eyes? If not, then you know what you need to do. You have come to the solution of your Don Juan troubles. Legends spoke of a Fountain of Youth that turns the old young. Conquistadors prowled continents hunting for this magical facet of Nature. This legend of the Fountain of Youth was like a psychological splinter in the minds of so many men, driving them across the world through dangers and storms to obtain such a treasure. But it was not in the world, it was in us. Who knew women are the key that seems to unlock all of Nature's mysteries? Doesn't this clear the stormy air of confusion? (especially with younger 'immature' women!) When you are with a woman and a thousand Don Juan philosophies and tactics come to thwart your peace, remember the kid that you were... and how he looked on life. Yes, she might be a twenty-something vixen. But underneath those milk-sacs and fat deposits that drive your chemicals mad, is a little girl. Rather than being nervous about
some date, view the date as if you were seven years old. Everything becomes simple and fun (as it should be!). One thing is for certain, women go NUTS over a guy who keeps his boyhood charm as women want an ESCAPE. They do not want to hear your views on the world. They want to have the happiness and fun of their childhood back (as everyone does!). They will FIGHT for the rare men who truly live like this (this also explains the mystery why uneducated men often seem to do BETTER with women than many men with PhDs who are so 'smart' they intellectualized life out of existence). As we know, cell division error, aided by free radicals, accumulates errors throughout the body as time passes. A person of 80 obviously has more errors than that of 40. His tissues start to fail, making his organs fail, then entire organ systems collapse, until life is snuffed out. In the same way, our minds start out pristine and pure (that of the child!) and everything is playful, fun, and simple. But as time passes, philosophies and bitter memories accumulate. The diseased person looks at life only through the philosophical lens, living a life of past memories, and so his life decays and decays until there is no life within him. Pook hands you the chalice. Drink and pass the cup around. This water from the Fountain of Youth will wash away these errors, all those frames your bitter memories eat at your mind. Drink to the girls that rejected you viciously. Drink to the macho guys that beat you up in school. Drink to the chains of routines, errands, and appointments. Drink to your ambition, drink to your melancholy, drink to your loneliness. Drink to your hearts content and pass the cup around. Your mind has now absorbed the blessed waters of the Fountain of Youth. You are now the light of the world! Your life is now young, fruitful, fun, easy, simple, and your body will reflect it as well. The world is now your sandbox. Rejoice! Many people get swallowed up in their vanity, all believing themselves 'brilliant' and 'smart'. They follow their philosophies unquestioningly and their lives walk on the quicksand of melancholy. But... they see the new you and it smashes all their philosophies to bits. They ask each other, "How can he be so happy? How can he be so ALIVE? Let us study him and we will write articles and manifestos on him." But you know the truth. Their ambitions have consumed them while you look on life with youthful eyes... ...and live in a Child's Paradise. - excerpted from Be Like a Child by Pook And so began my first weeks of approaching, of meeting women, of trying to understand the mystery of attracting and fucking chicks. Those first weeks... I didn't know about "The Game"... I didn't really post on ASF... I'd read and read, but I never really asked anyone for help. It wasn't like I could talk to my friends in Korea about this kinda shit... I was too embarrassed to directly talk "game"
with my international friends and the Korean friends I had made were... well, let me put it this way. In the university where I was staying, girls and guys aren't allowed into each others' dormitory HALLWAYS, let alone rooms. There is also a curfew at midnight on weekdays... ;p Every night we'd have to sneak back in by having a friend open the door for us or just wait till the doors opened at like 5AM. I don't think Style sold many copies of "The Game" in South Korea... So it was just... myself. Sitting down every night for like ten minutes, right before collapsing on my bed, to write in a journal and ANALYZE what I had done wrong. Contrary to what some may believe, "game" isn't something you just automatically grasp in its entirety. You learn it in steps... How to approach. How to give off your best impression in the first ten seconds of contact. When to smile, when to look serious. How to project confidence. Body language... body posture... eye contact. Using an opener? CARE about the opener... it is an extension of you. DON'T rush. How to hold their attention for the first MINUTE. Style calls it the hook point, when you are no longer another foreign nuisance, but someone somewhat interesting that they MAY want to continue talking to. The next minute. The next minute. The minute after that. Stories. Oh, opening, neg. ALWAYS NEG ASAP... oh wait, not when dealing with 7s. Only 10s, only 10s. Fuck, remember that. This story is clumsy... shave off the extra bullshit, keep it clean. Control your voice. No cracking, no timidity. Clear your throat and pause if you have to. Attraction, always keep your eyes on the prize. She's into you. Get the #. Hang out this weekend? Cool? Cool. Fuck, it's a flake. She calls, she's sorry. Can't make it that week. Click. The phone's dead. Or worse. She'll be there. You go to meet up. Too bad... she was lying. What did you do wrong? Just WHAT THE FUCK did you do wrong? Okay, okay... calm down. Emotion is for chicks. This is a video game. This is Terran vs Protoss on Nostalgia... calm. Back to the drawing board. OHHH... Qualify her. You're not the only cool one. She's cool too. You FINALLY appreciate her, let her know. Then a step further. Connect. Click, click, click. No, DON'T SUPPLICATE. Just click. Emotional connections. Show a vulnerable side if you have to. She can't logically allow herself to meet up with some dude she met at the club. Or at the bar. Or on the street. That's SLUTTY. That would mean she's EASY. So you have to have a face. A true IDENTITY that she can be sucked into, so she can allow herself to enjoy being with you.
But what's my identity? Fuck... I'm just a Korean kid from the States, smart but not supersmart, in shape but not unbelievably ripped, upper middle class but not fabulously wealthy... WHO AM I? WHO AM I? This is the question we struggle with. The clearer and stronger your answer to this question, the easier it is to attract women. Because women will INVARIABLY be attracted to a man who knows who he is, what he is worth, and what he can offer... why? Because so many guys out there, they are UNSURE. They will WILLINGLY follow and dwell in the realities of OTHERS, because they uncomfortable DEFINING themselves. To define yourself is to stride unflinchingly into uncharted territory and say "THIS IS ME. THIS IS NOT ME. FUCK OFF." And we are always afraid of the unknown. This is called living in your own reality. So... in my own reality... do whatever the FUCK I want... okay, okay... so I do... I get drunk and this girl is soooo into me, because I am wild. I am making my jokes, I am telling my story, and not giving a flying fuck about anything beyond my own fun... but this girl is making eyes at me and I can tell... my first random makeout on the steps by the soccer field outside of the dorm (we got locked out), surrounded by trees and mosquitoes.... Wait.. but I was drunk.... the next morning, I'm sober. Where's my courage? Where's my suave? Where's my inner Casanova? Fuck... gone gone gone... like an empty bottle of soju, I'm empty of SUBSTANCE... of that STUFF that makes the girls into you..... back to my journal, what's wrong? Step by step by step.... approach by approach... joke by joke... the c/f lines are stocking up in my head, like another pair of socks to be worn. The stories are piling up... like gems to be shared.... still clumsy, still.... Caroline. She was a cutie... not in the hot, flashy, overwhelming way that some hotties are. But sweet... in the truest sense of the word. Wholesome smile. Short, but slender and graceful. Soft and full in all the right places. Eyes that could stop a raging storm. She was the new roommate and nextdoor neighbor of one of my female friends from the States. She came from Switzerland with my brother, but the two of them had been born in Sweden. They went to elementary school in the States, then moved to Switzerland for highschool and college. This was their first time back in Korea in fourteen years. When I first met her, I immediately rejected the idea that I could ever win her. SO many guys were into her... starting with guys who were friends of her family in Korea... guys
from the dorms... guys in our program... my roommate... Actually, I thought even if I DID TRY, I'd fuck up and totally ruin myself in the current social circle I was in. So I didn't. I just did my approaches, I stayed chill with my guy friends, joked around with my female friends, and ignored her for the most part. I mean.. not REALLY ignored her. I practiced a neg or two... a story or two... a c/f or two... but really, just didn't TRY. Towards the end of the program, a group of us went out to get dinner and drink the night away. At the bar/cafe where we were drinking, she and I got into an unintentional discussion about religion. The others were playing a drinking game and the two of us were already eliminated, so we were just talking. I don't even remember how it started.. but she was talking about how she wasn't a devout Catholic anymore. And I told her about my take on God... I didn't even really pay attention to her, I was trying to figure out my thoughts... "You know... I've been raised a Christian... I was president of my church youth group, that's how into it I was... and one day, I just couldn't TAKE all these people telling me 'God has a plan for you' 'He's going to use you' 'DOn't worry, it's all part of His plan.' What about MY plan? What the hell are our choices, our decisions, our morals worth if God has it all figured out? When I say 'No I'm not going to kill this man' or 'Yes, I will stay into night and study for this exam' or 'I will help this old lady across the street'.... what do my choices matter when it's all planned out for me?" I don't know if this has any logical/tangible implications for the religion. I was just... speaking from the heart. My personal worries...And I don't know... she just looked at me with these eyes, like "Tell me more." Intensity. Passion. They draw women to you like flies to a candy bar... this was another STEP... THIS is what "game" is... to bypass all the ridiculous tests and expectations that society has for us, and to share intimacies with a girl.... On the walk back to the dorm, she walked with me. She was tipsy... her head rested on my shoulder. I was frozen inside, my lips dry... but I clenched my testicles and slipped my hand over hers. It was soft and yielding, but with a hidden firmness in the grip. Just like a woman's hand ought to be. _________________ "Falling in love is one of life's pleasures." - Juggler "I don't care how hot she is... Some guy, somewhere, right now, is fucking tired of her shit." - Philos
RedSeraph Friend With Benefits
Joined: 30 Aug 2005 Posts: 1856 Location: Beardsville, FL Face: Ancient Mariner's PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 8:19 am Post subject: Re: ! The Lizard King wrote: Quote: I found ASF in the weirdest place possible.... a Starcraft forum. Epic reference #2 Quote: The sig was a quote of someone called "Mystery" Epic reference #3 I thought the same thing. At both of those lines, my jaw went slack. Well, it actually landed in my lap as I sat back in my chair at the Starcraft forum line. I was like "Dude, that is fucking destiny. A nerdy Korean kid who's bad with girls wants to change that but is instead wasting his time doing what Koreans do best: Starcraft, and he's handed a ticket out through the only avenue he knows." Don't tell me that isn't fucking destiny. Especially in the context of knowing what he is today: A pimp with girls, a pimp with Starcraft. Aussie wrote: The Lizard King wrote: I didn't know it was only a year ago that the key dudes were still posting on asf. That's pretty cool. I thought the scene died 3 years ago. Reply with quote
He mentioned he went through Mystery's archives. I'm not sure what the archives are as I've never seen them but I'm assuming they're most likely some form of archive Very Happy
It did die out 3 years ago. I did this same thing, but I didn't dedicate to it like Flame did, and maybe I should... Basically what you do is go to the fs.com forum, and do a search for all posts by member: Mystery. Hell, it's the same thing as if you wanted to read everything I ever wrote by doing a search on this forum for all posts by user: RedSeraph. He just read the entire search results list chronologically. It's not hard to get there. Joltman wrote: You know Flame. This is the best story (or stories) ever. I'm sorry RedSeraph, although i like your writing style and hearing about your IW experiences. This has got to be one of the most important threads on this forum about improving yourself. Really inspirational work.
Well that's because the subject matter and point of the story is inherently different in his plot. My stories to this point have been purely about "Look what a fucking wuss I was, I was a prime example of an IW" and nothing more. Whereas his story (which started off much the same) has now by popular demand, taken a turn toward "this is how I quit being a wuss", which is a story I've never told for myself. And quite honestly, since I haven't completed that journey yet, I don't feel like starting a story about it. A) It won't have a great ending at this point, 2) I won't know the full significance of any particular turning points of the story until I see the conclusion and moral of the story, then look back and put the events in context. That's why my writing is so good *AWAAW WAWAW AWA WA* is because when I start writing it, I know where it's going and I know what angle I want to portray the strongest, thus I know what points to stress and how to foreshadow or set up suspense for surprise (such as mentioning Tara so early in the Skinny Amber story). _________________ <-Member of the AAA Fan Club. And I'm not just a member... I'm also the president.... and the only member... Crying or Very sad "Would you take the poster above you (RedSeraph) as a wingman?" nobody wrote: Yes, because in Soviet Russia, vagina fucks you. Also, spinning piledriver.
GAHHARGH New Fish
Joined: 08 Dec 2003 Posts: 9 Well, this is my first post. Naturally I have to bitch, or else I wouldn't be here. Maybe I can get some more advice too... First a tad on myself: Since this year, especially after reading fastseduction.com and this site, I've grown a great deal of self-confidence and I'm cultivating a nice pair of balls. I used to not have any courage at all when it came to talking to women. Touching them for me had always been a big deal too, which is really pathetic, I know. I've never had the balls to ask anyone out either. I was the biggest pussy in the world. This year though I've gotten a lot better. I suffer from a drastic case of low-self esteem which just won't go away, but in all other fields I have improved. Sometimes I can even feel that some girls are slightly embarassed when I'm talking to them, although it's usually the other way around still. And I can be myself now too (Whenever a girl used to talk to me I'd become a total mess and begin mumbling and shit). This past month I've had more kino than in the past 16 years. I work a lot in the theatre, and it's the place where I'm the most at home and most interesting and funny at. during the last performance I even got hugs from this girl I've never ever talked too, but I didn't get a chance to work on it since it was during the performance nights and when the cast was backstage I was up in the lighting booth where my job is. She hasn't talked to me since the afterparty though, where there was way to many people for me to feel comfortable doing anything so I was busy being depressed. That and lack of courage too. Oh yeah, Never had a gf before and I've never kissed before either. But on too my case. Well, I'm in an idiotic place at the moment. I'm in love with this girl, nearly exactly one year younger (Same month. She's 15, I'm 16). The whole idea of having sex with her is out of the question, because (brace yourselves) she is Mormon Rolling Eyes . Yes, I am a crazy fuck. But yeah, she's still really hot and I just feel extremely attracted to her. I really can't help it. The main problem is I rarely see her during the week, except when I'm rushing to class. Since she is one grade below me it dosn't help much either, since I have to do the full IB program and have no classes with her. Only reason I know her is she worked and will be working in the Lighting and Sound booth of our school theater with me. She's the first girl I've ever had a substantial amount of Kino with, but last year I was still a fucking pussy and she had a boyfriend. The first time I saw her (Will be a year in January) I thought she was gonna be the biggest bitch ever, but working with her made me think otherwise. There was someone else higher up on my ladder at that point too, so I really didn't care much for her. And yes, strangely enough, she paid more attention to me last year. Of course the fact that these past five months I might have talked to her a total accumlativley of about an hour and last year I was pulling off about that much weekly since we had to work in the booth
a lot from January to July. I've only been called to work up in the booth twice these past five months, once was for around a month consecutivley because it was a big musical, but she didn't show (Said she had to much work. Who knows? probably not.). I know she is coming to work at the performance I met her at last year. My plan as it stands is to try and hit it home then, or at least work it and get her to go with me somewhere. I've asked her a couple times but she has always has had plans. Even called her a couple of times. That isn't working so I've gone into a stage of ignoring her a bit. Now whenever I get a couple of minutes to talk to her she seems a bit more enthusiastic. And when I came back from spring break (A week long, was with my friends in Rome) she even stopped me and began to talk. I got a bunch of positive body language (Read www.fastseduction.com) then, and I can make her laugh when I'm around her and there are few people around. Winter Break is coming up, and it's about a month long. And we go straight to work in the theater when we come back, so it seems like a perfect opportunity. And the week after the performance is Winter Ball. The other problem is she told me on one of the rare occasions we did talk that she liked this guy, and I've heard from some of that guy's friends that's he's crazy about her. It seems he's more of a pussy than me though (Watch them be dating tomorrow though. My luck is always like that. Whenever I open my big mouth saying something won't happen...it does), since, while she actually does stuff with him, whenever I see them walking around together they are always a good deal apart from eachother. I've never seen them touch eachother either. And they would already be dating by now too if he wasn't a pussy. I got some people lower on my ladder I could fall to if this dosn't work, but I REALLY fucking want this girl. Somedays I feel like I have a chance with her, others I feel like I have absolutley no chance...help... Shocked _________________ Roses are red, violets are blue, I'll fuck you with a rake. \\Comment by MANipulation Quote: Well, I'm in an idiotic place at the moment. I'm in love with this girl, nearly exactly one year younger (Same month. She's 15, I'm 16). The whole idea of having sex with her is out of the question, because (brace yourselves) she is Mormon . Yes, I am a crazy fuck.
Damn, things were sounding good until here. Quote: But yeah, she's still really hot and I just feel extremely attracted to her. I really can't help it.
I know the feeling. It's called "one-itis."
Quote: The main problem is I rarely see her during the week, except when I'm rushing to class.
Good! Due to the Mormonism etc...I am not sure if things would go well if you get with her. Quote: he other problem is she told me on one of the rare occasions we did talk that she liked this guy, and I've heard from some of that guy's friends that's he's crazy about her.
Irrelevant. If you are going to make a move on her, don't let your mind play "she likes me, she likes me not." Don't worry about her liking other guys, a) it doesn't matter, b) it wrecks confidence, and as you pointed out c) you have no idea whether the other guy will have the balls to ask her out. My advice: If it didn't seem that she was attracted to you, I would say steer clear. But since she is, you might want to give it a try. But first, make a decision whether it will be worth the risks or not, considering her religion and the fact that you may run into prudery about getting physical. Once you decide, proceed confidently on your decision. And decide whether you are willing to go into it knowing that there will be no sex. If you were older, I would say that would be stupid, but since you are 16, it might be hard to push for sex in general...I dunno depends on your school etc... Go on the mASF forum on fastseduction and read up on one-itis. You have it. Don't let it foul you up. If you feel really emotional about her, it might be best to move on rather than risk messy drama with her. Quote: got some people lower on my ladder I could fall to if this dosn't work, but I REALLY fucking want this girl. Somedays I feel like I have a chance with her, others I feel like I have absolutley no chance...help..
Don't worry about whether you have a "chance" with her or not. That is a self-limiting mindset. Instead, decide whether she has a chance with YOU given her background. Hope this helps. _________________ Women represent the triumph of matter over mind, just as men represent the triumph of mind over morals. Oscar Wilde \\Comment by Dlusion
Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2003 12:14 am Post subject: k Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post alright well i just read your first post compleatly and first thing i can say is GOOD LUCK on the IB program, its a hardass mofo, they do it alot here since its one of the only alternatives to getting a worthless diploma my sister took it and failed by 1 point lol none of the guys that took it passed except one and he didnt get accepted into university, around half of the girls passed and this friend of mine got the highest grade in the middle east. anyway back to the original topic since you arent listening to her bs about her with other guys or anything i'd say your not an IW also she doesnt seem to use you for entertainment purposes, she might be trying to get you jealous telling you about liking the other guy so you finally just ask her out, or perhaps she likes both of you and he seems to be the only one actually trying to make moves[ although you said he was more of a pussy than you but he actually seems to hang out with her] though he could be her IW, but she might like him as well and be waiting for him to make the move. thats a far as i can analyze at the moment... ive never been with a girl younger than me, xept for this one girl that i didnt know how old she was and that was a one night thing anyway. [ my standards are kinda high and i usually require large amounts of maturity which is usually only possesed by girls older than me] but again back to you i'd say to make her like you a tad bit more and let her know you got some type of feeling for her but not as much as you say you have [prolly scare her away] and then just make the move man but i'd think MANI and anon could give way better advice so try to wait for them to post something before you do anything lol _________________ Answering the questions nobody asked -D.lu

The Ladder Theorists Handbook

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The Ladder Theorists Handbook For a while now Ive been collecting and organizing good posts from

Introduction to the Ladder

Foundations of the Ladder Theory

Foundations of Ladder Theory

http://intellectualwhores.com/foundations.html (1 of 3)8/6/2006 9:04:19 PM

Foundations of the Ladder Theory

Bob Meets Jane Then Bob Meets Connie

http://intellectualwhores.com/foundations.html (2 of 3)8/6/2006 9:04:19 PM

Foundations of the Ladder Theory

http://intellectualwhores.com/foundations.html (3 of 3)8/6/2006 9:04:19 PM

The Rating System: A Short Aside

The Rating System: A Short Aside

http://intellectualwhores.com/rating.html (1 of 2)8/6/2006 9:04:20 PM

The Rating System: A Short Aside

sense of humor intelligence sensitivity emotional stability

http://intellectualwhores.com/rating.html (2 of 2)8/6/2006 9:04:20 PM

The Inner Structure of the Pie Chart

Deconstructing the Woman's Pie Chart

http://intellectualwhores.com/deconstruction.html (1 of 5)8/6/2006 9:04:21 PM

The Inner Structure of the Pie Chart

http://intellectualwhores.com/deconstruction.html (2 of 5)8/6/2006 9:04:21 PM

The Inner Structure of the Pie Chart

The Inner Structure of the Pie Chart

Dreams of a Final Theory

http://intellectualwhores.com/deconstruction.html (4 of 5)8/6/2006 9:04:21 PM

Construction of the Ladder

Construction of the Ladder

http://intellectualwhores.com/construction.html (1 of 4)8/6/2006 9:04:22 PM

Construction of the Ladder

http://intellectualwhores.com/construction.html (2 of 4)8/6/2006 9:04:22 PM

Construction of the Ladder

Scenario 3: A girl says any of the following to you:

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Hidden Variables in the Ladder

http://intellectualwhores.com/hiddenvariables.html (1 of 2)8/6/2006 9:04:22 PM

Hidden Variables and Sanity

http://intellectualwhores.com/hiddenvariables.html (2 of 2)8/6/2006 9:04:22 PM

Yes Virginia, They All Want to Nail You

IF A MAN FINDS YOU ATTRACTIVE YOU CANNOT BE FRIENDS

Consequences of the Ladder

Consequences of the Ladder

Topping out the Ladder:

http://intellectualwhores.com/consequences.html (1 of 2)8/6/2006 9:04:27 PM

Consequences of the Ladder

http://intellectualwhores.com/consequences.html (2 of 2)8/6/2006 9:04:27 PM

Manifestations of The Ladder

Manifestations of the Ladder

http://intellectualwhores.com/manifestations.html (1 of 3)8/6/2006 9:04:27 PM

Manifestations of The Ladder

Friends With Benefits:

http://intellectualwhores.com/manifestations.html (2 of 3)8/6/2006 9:04:27 PM

Manifestations of The Ladder

http://intellectualwhores.com/manifestations.html (3 of 3)8/6/2006 9:04:27 PM

Answers to Common Criticisms

Answers to Common Criticisms

Answers to Common Criticisms

http://intellectualwhores.com/criticisms.html (2 of 2)8/6/2006 9:04:28 PM

A Common Ladder Misonception

Appendix A: Removing a Little Cognitive Dissonance

A Common Ladder Misonception

Are you serious or is the site just satire?

What about homosexual/bi-sexual/trangendered/spongecake fetishists?

Appendix B: Some Songs That Reflect Ladder Theory