SEC: Clarification list

Udo Walther to: Majed 08/06/2013 12:52 PM

Cc: Abdullah Nasiruddin, johann.sager
Dear Mr. Majed,
please note my comments in the original text.
No answer required.
Thank you!
Mit freundlichen Grssen / With kind regards,
Udo K. Walther
Electrical Project Manager
____________________________________________________________________
Pyry Schweiz AG / Pyry Suisse SA / Pyry Svizzera SA / Pyry Switzerland Ltd
Hardturmstrasse 161, PO Box
CH-8037 Zrich
Switzerland
Tel: +41 78 706 31 36
Fax: +41 44 355 55 63
E-Mail: udo.walther@poyry.com
www.poyry.ch
----- Forwarded by Udo Walther/chzrh/ch/poyry on 06.08.2013 11:38 -----
From: ahmed alfuraih <holooly@gmail.com>
To: "majed sa'adeh" <majedsaadh@gmail.com>
Cc: nasir.uddin@poyry.com, udo <udo.walther@poyry.com>, sebastian.wegener@poyry.com, hai jun
Wang <wanghaijun0923@gmail.com>, nanpengsepco3@gmail.com, Abdullah Alzowaid
<razalzowaid@gmail.com>, Ayedh <razalbeeshi@gmail.com>
Date: 04.08.2013 14:24
Subject: Clarification list
Dear Majed
Find below SEC operation reply to clarification list for your further action from your side , the
only point still under review is the AGC protocol which is with system control division ,i will
follow it up with them .
Let me know if there any more points to be clarified
Best Regards
Ahmed ALfuraih
Holool Engineering
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: OPESODV (EOA-System Monitoring Division Manager) <OPESODV@ngrid.sa>
Date: Sun, Aug 4, 2013 at 2:47 PM
Subject: RE: Pending issues with SEC operation
To: ahmed alfuraih <holooly@gmail.com>
Cc: "Ribhi M. Ghannam" <RMGhannam@se.com.sa>, "OCOPEMG (Operation & Control
Department Manager - EOA)" <OCOPEMG@ngrid.sa>, "OPECRDV (EOA-Control Division
Manager)" <OPECRDV@ngrid.sa>, "OPECSDV (EOA-Control Support Division Manager)" <
OPECSDV@ngrid.sa>
Dear Ahmed,
Subject: Signal Exchange list for DCS,SAS and LDC Clarification
Hereunder , SEC answers and clarifications to your inquires aroused in the Signal Exchange list
for DCS and LDC:-
For AGC Protocol:
The attached diagram shows our understanding for the coordination with SEC regarding the
AGC, please confirm our understanding as follows:
SEC will send deposit signal for AGC, this mean the SEC request from SWCC power plant to
deposit the generation control.
Diagram under reviewing stage from Control System
Staff. You can communicate them on this contact ( SCRCEDV@ngrid.sa
)
SWCC power plant will send permission signal.
After that SEC will start sendincrease, decrease MW as set point, this mean if SEC send
give for example signal to increase 100 MW, the 100 MW will be distribute equally to all
generators.
The SEC used terminology for increase, decrease, is
Target Valve ,
Comment Udo: please state the unit of the target value MW or % (pls see
next example).
Part of the statement to be correct to read as For
example signal to set generator to 100 Comment Udo: please state the
unit of the target value MW or %. . The required generation will be
distributed equally in case there are margin on online units.
For increase /decrease MVAR, this signal will be for each generator separately and not
as set point to allow SEC control the voltage properly.
This item is quite acceptable, but instead of that, RAK
could put theunits Exciters on Auto and then units can adjust the voltage
within its the MVAR curves and allowable limits.
B. For another signals,our understanding as the followings:
1- Refer to several meeting with SEC, SEC pointed out that earth switch have to be control
only from local, therefore the remote end control for earth switch have to be remove, please
confirm ?
SEC Confirms that E/Switch to be operated Manually, status is required and
no need for Local/Remote
Comment Udo: I understand: No remote from SEC. But please clarify if remote
control from HVSwgBldg (HV Control Room) will be installed.

2- Line disconnector from Generator side, it is necessary to send close/open command from
DCS or status is sufficient, SWCC requested to have open/close from DCS, please confirm ?
If this is in the link of the unit( not on bus), then, status is
sufficient.Please send us the disconnect numbers attached with single line
diagram.
3- Open command from DCS will be only for steam HV breakers, SEC to confirm ?
In normal status SEC will not give access of this open command to RAK
Comment Udo: I understand: In ab-normal status SEC could give this permission,
e.g. in case of island mode and if the PP is already disconnected from SEC grid.
Pls. clarify.
4- Refer to attached SEC specification, What the meaning for Secondary response margin?
Siemens requested this clarification.
Actually, RAK has to clarify the way of loading their units , in case of base
load loading then SEC will not benefited from any reserve margin as the units
will not have enough reserve to respond.
5- Refer to attached SEC specification, What the meaning MVAR reserve margin ? Siemens
requested this clarification.
The MVAR margin is within the unit MVAR capability Curve, usually is not
defined but SEC would like units to see Unit Exciters to remain on Auto.
6- Refer to attached SEC specification, What is meaning Active power local/ remote ? Siemens
requested this clarification, what SEC meaning for local/remote here ?
This means AGC local/Remote
7- Refer to attached SEC specification, What is meaning Primary response On/Off ? Siemens
requested this clarification, what SEC meaning for on/off here ?
This is exactly, equivalent to Governor response on free mode.
8- Voltage signals are required, as the VT are huge in substation, it is possible to present L2
only or L1,L2,L3 are necessary ?
If this refers to line kV , then it should be available on all SEC lines.
9- Current signals are required, as the CT are huge in substation, it is possible to present L2
only or L1,L2,L3are necessary?
Similar to above , the line MW is required and this is taken from the CT & PT
and on each lines.
10- The maximum/ minimum POSSIBLE MW RATE POWER CHANGE: we assume
this is only one signal to power plant, and the DCS will distribute the power to all units.
The rate Change here is termed in SEC as Absolute Target , but the concept
is the same .
11- ACTIVE POWER SETPOINT: same above .
The set point is issued by AGC , this is directly related to item #10.
The aroused points by RAK Have been answered according to our understanding , in case this
answers are not fully clear and need to be discussed , please let Majed or any concerned person
call Ribhi Ghannam on extension 86558 or e-mail 39463@es.com.sa
Best regards, .
From: ahmed alfuraih [mailto:holooly@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, J uly 31, 2013 2:04 PM
To: OPESODV (EOA-System Monitoring Division Manager)
Cc: majed sa'adeh; nasir.uddin@poyry.com; hai jun Wang
Subject: Re: Pending issues with SEC operation
Dear Mr Riyadh
Please find our responses to the following points :
-Syn. concept
As you know and as per the SAS configuration ,any 380 KV breakers can not be closed or
open without permission from SEC dispatch .This privilege is already exist and given to
SEC .
-Islanding Scheme
-open contact of remote end 380kv breaker is not available at RAK S/S as per signal exchange
list .we confirm that Maaden is aware of this scheme , so please delete these two
comments
-Resyn. scheme
Please note that PMUs can't be provided in this stage for two reasons ,first it is impossible to
be installed by our contractor in this very late stage of the project ,secondly it is not
included in the PTS ,Please understand the contractual aspect of this project .This was also
the message i got from Mr fahad ALsaho .please delete it from your comments.
Best Regards
Ahmed ALfuraih
On Wed, J ul 31, 2013 at 12:41 PM, OPESODV (EOA-System Monitoring Division Manager) <
OPESODV@ngrid.sa>wrote:

Dear Ahmed Alfuraih,

The following items were discussed during our last meeting which was on Sunday
22 July 2013 :-

Signal Exchange List Between Power Plant Substation LDC

The subject list has been reviewed by Concerned people, it was found that certain
points have to be answered by SCADA Software group , the package has be
directed to SCADA Software , upon SCADA review, the answers and clarifications
will be delegated to RAK.

The Concept of Gas Turbine Breaker Control

Both parties have been accepted the synchronization concept on 380 kV breakers
of the gas turbine with the following conditions:-

Downstream unit breaker will be utilized in all times for unit

synchronization , high side breaker 380 kV shall be used in case of
emergency.
In case the unit should be synchronized through 380 kV breaker , RAK shall
obtain a permission from SEC East Power Dispatch.

Islanding Scheme

RAK proposal has been accepted by SEC-East, the scheme common understanding
is have all four lines in open status in addition to zero load flow.
SEC recommended to include the status of breakers at remote end as well. RAK
has to consider that under any state of separation SEC Maaden 380/115 kV
substation will fail within the separated zone , Maaden has to be fully aware of
this status and Ma'aden should have involve in scheme reviewing.

Re-synchronization Scheme

The way and the location of re-synchronization after separation is totally the
responsibility of SEC-East . SEC has recommended to added PMUs to certain
locations as it would help in resynchronizing the islanded portion.

Best regards,
From: OCOPEMG (Operation & Control Department Manager - EOA)
Sent: Wednesday, J uly 31, 2013 9:55 AM
To: Ribhi M. Ghannam; OPECSDV (EOA-Control Support Division Manager)
Cc: OPESODV (EOA-System Monitoring Division Manager); OPECRDV (EOA-Control
Division Manager)
Subject: FW: Pending issues with SEC operation
From: ahmed alfuraih [mailto:holooly@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, J uly 31, 2013 8:48 AM
To: OCOPEMG (Operation & Control Department Manager - EOA)
Subject: : Pending issues with SEC operation
TOP URGENT
Dear Mr Riyadh
We are still awaiting your reply with respect to pending topics with SEC operation and the
clarification list of signal exchange which been promised to be sent theDAY AFTER THE
MEETING ,please expedite .
Best Regards
Ahmed ALfuraih
On Sun, J ul 28, 2013 at 9:14 AM, ahmed alfuraih <holooly@gmail.com>wrote:
Dear Eng. Riyadh
We need your support to finalize the pending issues with SEC operation ,despite several meeting
with your staff we could not be able to reach to common understanding ,these issues are now
holding the engineering progress and delaying the project and cause serious impact on production
/generation milestone .
a waiting your reply
Ahmed ALfuraih
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <nasir.uddin@poyry.com>
Date: Sun, J ul 28, 2013 at 12:50 AM
Subject: Re: FW: Clarification for Signals Exchange List Between SAS, DCS and LDC
To: sshomran@se.com.sa
Cc: holooly@gmail.com, nan peng <nanpengsepco3@gmail.com>, mohammad alqahtani
<razmmq@gmail.com>, sepco3ycj <sepco3ycj@gmail.com>, suxzsepco3@gmail.com,
wanghaijun0923@gmail.com, wanghuilsx <wanghuilsx@gmail.com>, wxmeng04 <
wxmeng04@gmail.com>, zhaoyan <zhaoyansepco3@gmail.com>, Majed <majedsaadh@
gmail.com>, Abdullah Alzowaid <razalzowaid@gmail.com>, frank.kenny@poyry.com, "Hameed
H. Hussain" <46604@se.com.sa>, "Khawar B. Yousuf" <CE1070@se.com.sa>,
OPLPSDV@se.com.sa, OPESODV@ngrid.sa, 31148@se.com.sa
Dear Mr. Saad,
Please refer to our follow-up meeting dated 22-J uly & further to the e-mail's below from
the substation/generation contractor, please note all the engineering activities related
on the subject is on HOLD, since the clarification has not been received so far. The
subject document were submitted by the contractor officially in the first week of J une,
2013 and the copy of the same were again forwarded to you on request during the said
meeting.
You are kindly requested to please review the below comments required clarification &
respond urgently. Please note this is extremely important issue, Any further delay to
finalize the subject document will have major impact on the project forecasted
substation energization and further to the first GT fire.
You support & cooperation will be highly appreciated.
Regards,
Abdullah Nasiruddin
Project Manager - 380kV Substation, OE
Raz Al Khair Power & Desalination Plant.
Saudi Arabia.
Phone: +966 (0)5 62 61 63 65
Pyry Energy AG
Hardurmstrasse 161,
CH-8037 Zurich, Switzerland
From: Peng Zhu [mailto:pengzhsepco3@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, J uly 26, 2013 11:30 AM
To: 'Majed'
Cc: 'Wang Kui'; eng.alisepco3@gmail.com; zhangyongsepco3@gmail.com; 'zhaoyan';
'nan peng '; 'wxmeng04'; 'wanghuilsx'; 'sepco3ycj'; suxzsepco3@gmail.com
Subject: : Interface concept between DCS and 380 KV substation .
Dear Mr. Majed,
As Siemens said, for the signal list, it shall be decided by SEC and SWCC, SEPCOIII or Siemens
cannot make any decision on this issue.
Best Regards,
Peng Zhu
: Maj ed [mai l to: maj edsaadh@gmai l . com]
j[: 2013+7[26 10: 05
[: ' Peng Zhu'
|j: ' Wang Kui ' ; eng. al i sepco3@gmai l . com; zhangyongsepco3@gmai l . com;
' zhaoyan' ; ' nan peng ' ; wxmeng04; wanghui l sx; sepco3ycj ; suxzsepco3@gmai l . com
: RE: I nterf ace concept between DCS and 380 KV substati on .
Dear Mr.Peng,
Kindly specify, define and identify the requirement to freeze the design ?
It is related to the AGC protocol and some issues need clarification with SEC ?
Best regards
From: Peng Zhu [mailto:pengzhsepco3@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, J uly 26, 2013 10:20 AM
To: 'Majed'
Cc: 'Wang Kui'; eng.alisepco3@gmail.com; zhangyongsepco3@gmail.com
Subject: |: Interface concept between DCS and 380 KV substation .
Dear Mr. Majed,
Please find below concern from Siemens for your kind action.
Siemens explain to us, it is impossible to make a design freeze based on the signal list what I got
from you.
Best Regards,
Peng Zhu
: Schrei ber, Rol and (E F ES EN ERL ETEC) [
mai l to: rol and. schrei ber@si emens. com]
j[: 2013+7[26 8: 38
[: Peng Zhu
|j: Kronf el d, Peter (E F ES EN ERL PTEC- A 2); eng. al i sepco3@gmai l . com;
zhangyongsepco3@gmai l . com; zhaoxsepco3@gmai l . com; ' Wang Kui ' ; ' Maj ed' ;
Schrei ter, Chri sti an (E F ES EN ETEC EE); Kaeser, Sven (E F ES EN ETEC EE);
Pri nce, El i zabeth (E F ES EN VI E PTEC)
: AW: I nterf ace concept between DCS and 380 KV substati on .
Dear Mr. Peng Zhu,
thanks for the confirmation of the interface concept between the DCS and the 380kV
Substation.
When can we expect the signallist?
Best Regards
Roland Schreiber
Von: Peng Zhu [mailto:pengzhsepco3@gmail.com]
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 25. J uli 2013 19:14
An: Schreiber, Roland (E F ES EN ERL ETEC)
Cc: Kronfeld, Peter (E F ES EN ERL PTEC-A 2); eng.alisepco3@gmail.com;
zhangyongsepco3@gmail.com; zhaoxsepco3@gmail.com; 'Wang Kui'; 'Majed'
Betreff: Interface concept between DCS and 380 KV substation .
Dear Mr. Roland Schreiber,
As requested from Siemens EFES, please kindly find the attached interface concept
between DCS and 380kV Substation for your further action.
Best Regards,
Peng Zhu
From: "Majed" <majedsaadh@gmail.com>
To: <sshomran@se.com.sa>
Cc: <holooly@gmail.com>, <nasir.uddin@poyry.com>, "mohammad alqahtani" <razmmq@gmail.com>, <
wanghaijun0923@gmail.com>, "'nan peng '" <nanpengsepco3@gmail.com>, "wxmeng04" <wxmeng04@gmail.com>, "'zhaoyan'" <
zhaoyansepco3@gmail.com>, <suxzsepco3@gmail.com>, "wanghuilsx" <wanghuilsx@gmail.com>, "sepco3ycj" <sepco3ycj@gmail.com
>
Date: 07/23/2013 04:02 AM
Subject: FW: Clarification for Signals Exchange List Between SAS, DCS and LDC
Dear Mr.Saad,
Based on our discussion in SEC office dated 23 July, 2013, kindly help us to clarify the followings
points related to the signals exchange list:
A. For AGC Protocol:
The attached diagram shows our understanding for the coordination with SEC regarding the
AGC, please confirm our understanding as follows:
SEC will send deposit signal for AGC, this mean the SEC request from SWCC power plant to
deposit the generation control.
SWCC power plant will send permission signal.
After that SEC will start send increase, decrease MW as set point, this mean if SEC send
give for example signal to increase100MW, the100MW will be distribute equally to all
generators.
For increase /decrease MVAR, this signal will be for each generator separately and not as
set point to allow SEC control the voltage properly.
B. For another signals, our understanding as the followings:
1- Refer to several meeting with SEC, SEC pointed out that earth switch have to be control
only from local, therefore the remote end control for earth switch have to be remove, please
confirm ?
2- Line disconnector from Generator side, it is necessary to send close/open command from
DCS or status is sufficient, SWCC requested to have open/close from DCS, please confirm ?
3- Open command from DCS will be only for steam HV breakers, SEC to confirm ?
4- Refer to attached SEC specification, What the meaning for Secondary response margin ?
Siemens requested this clarification.
5- Refer to attached SEC specification, What the meaning MVAR reserve margin ? Siemens
requested this clarification.
6- Refer to attached SEC specification, What is meaning Active power local/ remote ? Siemens
requested this clarification, what SEC meaning for local/remote here ?
7- Refer to attached SEC specification, What is meaning Primary response On/Off ? Siemens
requested this clarification, what SEC meaning for on/off here ?
8- Voltage signals are required, as the VT are huge in substation, it is possible to present L2
only or L1,L2,L3 are necessary ?
9- Current signals are required, as the CT are huge in substation, it is possible to present L2
only or L1,L2,L3 are necessary ?
10- The maximum/ minimum POSSIBLE MW RATE POWER CHANGE: we assume
this is only one signal to power plant, and the DCS will distribute the power to all units.
11- ACTIVE POWER SETPOINT: same above .
Thank you very much for your cooperation and support,
Best regards
From: Majed [mailto:majedsaadh@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, J uly 01, 2013 7:29 PM
To: holooly@gmail.com
Cc: wanghaijun0923@gmail.com; 'nan peng '; Zhao Xiang; wkuisepco3; pengzhsepco3
Subject: Clarification for Signals Exchange List Between SAS, DCS and LDC
Dear Mr.Ahmad,
As discussed, kindly find the attached all signals exchange list between SAS, DCS and LDC, kindly
help us to clarify the followings:
1- We would like to clarify the AGC protocol from SEC, as per our understanding the process
will be perform as per attached diagram, SEC to confirm ?
2- According to SEC PTS , the attached signals is required, so SEC to clarify :
Earth switch will be control locally, SEC to confirm to remove this from list.
Line disconnector from Generator side, it is necessary to send close/open command from
DCS or status is sufficient ?
Open command from DCS will be only for steam HV breakers, SEC to confirm ?
What the meaning for primary response margin ? Siemens requested this clarification.
What the meaning for Secondary response margin ? Siemens requested this clarification.
What the meaning MVAR reserve margin ? Siemens requested this clarification.
What is meaning Active power local/ remote ? Siemens requested this clarification.
What is meaning Primary response On/Off ? Siemens requested this clarification.
3- Voltage signals are required, as the VT are huge in substation, it is possible to present L2
only or L1,L2,L3 are necessary ?
4- Current signals are required, as the CT are huge in substation, it is possible to present L2
only or L1,L2,L3 are necessary ?
5- MAX POSSIBLE MW RATE POWER CHANGE: we assume this is only one signal
to power plant, and the DCS will distribute the power to all units.
6- ACTIVE POWER SETPOINT: same above .
Please advise the date and time for meeting with SEC if possible this week to close this issue.
Best regards
SEPCOIII ELECTRIC POWER CONSTRUCTION CORP.
:|],)
Best Wishes,
Majed Sa'adeh
Electrical Lead Engineer , Ras Al-Khair Project
SEPCOIII Electric Power Construction Corporation
Office: +96638697569
Mobile: +966544110790
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