Influence of Sanskrit Over Tamil - Breaking The Dravidian Racism - Senthilraja's Blog

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Influence of sanskrit over Tamil breaking the dravidian racism

Posted on July 6, 2010
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I had a debate in this blog post of sukumar about the world tamil conference and parpolas paper on Dravidian roots to IVC (which is also called Saraswathi Civilization). I argued that Tholkappiar, who wrote the first known tamil grammar book called Tholkappiam, himself is a brahmin, and this fact is often concealed or suppressed in various forums. Sukumar had challenged me to give a proof that tholkappiar was a brahmin, and while sourcing information for this, i happened to learn many things, which i want to consolidate in this post. Preface poem in Tholkappiam book: The whole book of tholkappiam can be downloded from Project Madurai website. I am reproducing the preface of this book..
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.. I am listing out the following inferences that we can make. > This line indicates, that tholkappiam is NOT the first tamil grammar book. Tholkappiar says, that he is wanting to refining an already existing grammar book.
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the mention of vedas.. i think tholkappiar mentions about his guru in pandian court, who is a learned men of all four vedas..
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Here, the word indicates the Aindram School of Sanskrit grammar, which is the first of the eleven sanskrit schools of grammar. All these grammars had preceded Paninis grammar, and is mentioned by himself in his work Ashtadhyayi. The following are the conclusions that we can make. Tholkappiar knew about vedas. Tholkappiar could have learned about aindram school of grammar. Tholkappiars guru is a scholar of four vedas, and hence Tholkappiar should have learned vedas. Tholkappiar should be a brahmana, since he learnt vedas. A vedic brahmana had written grammar for Tamil, which is used till now. Tamil had extensive relation with Sanskrit. Since Tholkappiar mentions about Aindram school of grammar, he might have lived much before Panini, who wrote modern sanskrit grammar. Grammars of Modern sanskrit and Tamil might have evolved from a common school of grammar. This doesnt mean, tamil is derived from sanskrit. Rather, the grammatical concepts might have been sourced from the common school and the scripts might have been independant. There can be many other inferences that we can make. But let me move on. The website of tamil Virtual University mentions the name of tholkappiar as ThiranaDhoomaggini () and tamil translation of this name comes to Pulathiyan (). Tholkappiyam mentions about loaning words from Sanskrit: While i was randomly going through the original tholkappiyam book, i came across the lines, where it is mentioned that words can be borrowed from sanskrit for the literary poems. In page# 63 of the tolkappian book referred in previous comment, the following lines appear under topic ..
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@pp_chn we have to start using this abused word "Thevadiya" in a positive way to change the perception.. i had started using it already 2 days ago @pp_chn the negative connotation of the tamil word "Thevadiya" is a direct indication of christianisation of tamil minds. can we change that 2 days ago @pp_chn the bloody Dravida Rascals had completely given a negative connotation to the tamil word "Devaradiyal", equating it to prostitute 2 days ago @pp_chn In our area, inviting devadasi to dance in marriage is considered auspicious.. it happened till 40 years before..
.. If my understanding is correct, tolkappiar says, words borrowed from sanskrit (), can also be used in composing the poems.. If we scroll Further, the following lines is seen which mentions about how Sanskrit words
can be used.
2 days ago @pp_chn In most temples, the rights of devadasis in temple festivals r followed atleast for namesake. we can revive that to its full purpose 2 days ago
pg-64 This contradicts the popular racial tamil theory propagated by Dravidar Kalagam and particularly by Dr. Ramdass of PMK, who attempts to create new tamil word for every foreign words. For eg, they are attempting to create a word vazhuval katti for soap, which is horrible one. The niceties of the tamil words in sanga poetry is lost with such attempts. We have to realise that it is the racial western society which believes in the linguistic exclusive concept, and many indic languages have mutual influences over words. Further, in the same book, tholkappiar also details about the other three types of words that he says can be incorporated in the Poems.
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So, there is a always a relation b/w tamil and sanskrit even before sangha period, and the relationship is indeed healthy. More importantly, we could not find anything racial tone in all these references. There is no mention of Aryan imposition over tamil or any reference to dravidian exclusivism. Other Sanskrit words widely in tamil: The tamil sanskrit linkages has been further understood from the following sanskrit words in tamil. Tolkappiam is divided in three books. ezhuthathikaram ( ) , porulathikaram () and sollathikaram ( ) .. here the word athikaram is a sanskrit word. The word kaappiyam () itself is from the sanskrit word kaavya .. We often use the word Sanga Tamil.. however, the term sangha itself is a prakrutha word.. meaning assembly.. for eg, in budhist history, they have established baudha sangha at various places to promote budhism The word kathai () is a sanskrit word Katha The word kalai () from the sanskrit word Kala manithan () from manushya the word aasaan has no tamil equivalent.
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We can list out so many such sanskrit words which has been used widely in tamil, for which we dont have any equivalent tamil word. Conclusion: The very fundamentals of Dravidian Ideology could be shaken from the simple truth that tholkappiar has been a Brahmin who knew veda, and who knew aindram school of grammar. So what could be the fact? Tamil might have evolved independantly. And at the same time, the concept of grammar has been simultaneously evolving with various schools of grammar being established. Tamil could have very well utilised these advancements to finetune itself. The tamil kings would have invited those grammarian scholars to either create grammar for tamil, or to refine an already evolving tamil grammar, as we could see in tholkappiam, where tholkappiar says he wanted to improve an already existing book. The truth may be anything, but we can identify it only when we free from the narrow racial ideology of aryan dravidian divide. What do you think? Please share your thoughts, and also any mistakes in this post.
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282 Responses to Influence of sanskrit over Tamil breaking the dravidian racism
Internet_Hindus says:
July 7, 2010 at 1:45 am
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It is an interesting observation that proposes sanskrit words in the old tamil. However if you develop this further into more strong a theory with references from contemporary researchers this can be mailed to any of the researchers and made into a scientific paper. But the fact might be that, scientifically this theory might be flawed and would have been attempted before by various researchers. You should try proposing it to others. 0
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July 7, 2010 at 8:16 am
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i am very well aware that it would have been attempted much before to establish relation b/w sanskrit and tamil and even wikipedia has links to it.. My point is not to state that tamil is derived from sanskrit or viceversa.. My aim is to explore the relationship b/w tamil and sanskrit, comparing with what is propogated now as dravidian theory which states that dravidians were subjugated by aryans and hence tamil also has been polluted.. This as we see from tholkappiyam itself is false.. 0
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Can you please also comment on the very names of the five big epics of thamizh literature containing richly words loaned from sanskrit? 0
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Sriram says:
June 25, 2012 at 10:05 pm
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Very good analysis brother. I see you are smart. I hope you wont get into a pit where which language is old or better or which came from which. Infact I can say that Samskrtam itself came from all the languages around. The word Dravidia was first used by Shankaracharya calling himself Dravidashishu meaning a boy from the south. The word etymology can be analyzed to mean land of water or land surrounded by water i.e peninsular India. Coming to say it was purely from geographical context. The word
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Arya was meant to call some one as noble. In Tamil you have Aiyaa. And all the gods and most of Tamil names have some kind of Aiyaa with it. One other funny claim that the western indologists have is that Aryans came from the west and conquered India. That is total bullshit. Our language, culture, art, science, philosophy etc. never go by the history they tell us and it never will. Most of the people today who talk about Samskrtam/Tamil never have actually studied either of them properly. Thanks to the British education. Bharatham never had a divide and conquer policy. In fact all the history(I mean real history) you will endeavor will be unifying with the masses. That is our culture, thats the way of Dharma and thats the way of nature. I would suggest you document all these with proper back references, translations and make a presentation out of this. 0
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senthil says:
June 26, 2012 at 12:25 am
@sriram, you are spot on.. nicely explained the hollowness of this samskritham-tamil debate.. as you said, samskritham itself is based on lot of prakrutham bashas.. 0
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kedarnath says:
July 7, 2010 at 7:07 am
namaskaram, thanks for this excellent analysis. However a slight shift in the paradigms for viewing s a n s k r i t and t a m i z h appears to be the need. 1. The words based on dhatu of what is generally known as sanskrit appears in many languages as distant geographically from bharath as cherokee and maya in the americas. that it appears in tamizh is no big deal and not necessarily any kind of import into tamizh for lack of a vocabulary in it for the concepts imported.
I chanced only this morning on a pdf file downloaded from http://www.archive.org/ long back in my e-library mAdhavIya dhAtuvRutti by sAyanacArya presented by dwarikadas shastry in devanagari and a quote from taiitiriya samhita 6-4-7 states that Indra is the lord of grammar. [vAgvai parAcyavyAkruta & vadatte devA indramabruvinnamam no vAcam vyAkurviti so bravi dvaram vRuNai mahyaM caivaiSh vAyave ca saha gRuhyAta iti tasmAdaindravAyavassha gRuhyate tAmindro madhyatovakramya vyAkarot] The concept in the mantra and Tolkappiars use of it is consistent with a Hindu vedic thought processes of very great antiquity and native to sampURNa Bharath and not imported in any way from anywhere. Different mantra of the corpus of the veda were enunciated by different seers at different times in antiquity. Taittirey samhita is in ancient stories is stated be a rebel saMhita in a way (The dark yajurveda) in contrast with the (vAjasneyi samhita). This only shows that North South and regional divides are of great antiquity. The greatest divide and most significant is the sura and asura. I have reasons to suspect that the asura were the Mayans in South and Meso America Is it not surprising that [jha] is a Brahmin surname in Bihar but there is not a single word beginning with [jha] in any of the veda. [jha] is the name of Jupiter (guru) the preceptor of the devas. And [bha] the shining one Venus shukracArya is the preceptor of the asuras. And Venus is a great God figure for the mayas. In Ramayana Ravanas wife is a mayan princess and so is Bharathas mother and (Ramas step mother) Keikiyi. I have posted on your comments in the world tamil conference blog 0
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senthil says:
July 7, 2010 at 8:20 am
Thanks for your comment sir.. The present day historians assume that there is no intra-civilizational interaction on those days.. but contrary to it, there seems to have people to people movement even across continents.. SO there should mutual interaction of civilization, languages.. My friend told that korea had lot of tamil words used widely there even now.. 0
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kedarnath says:
July 7, 2010 at 3:55 pm
namaskaram, Thanks for your reply, It would be most useful contribution if words of tamizh found in other languages were compiled. The traps to be anticipated for similarities in whole words ,however, is the inability of that proving or disproving anything. And can be pooh poohed as comparing mangoes and fish. What is most useful is comparisons of the dhAtu or elements that make up the two languages and their statistical analysis. This in my opinion will be the scientific proof needed for conclusions. I am looking for a dhAtu summary of tamizh (in transliterated script. tokappIyam, prima facie is a great source for this. best wishes 0
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Shanmugham says:
June 6, 2011 at 1:54 pm
It would be interesting to read the following link: http://www.mayyam.com/talk/showthread.php?2979-Tamil-selderliness-to-worldlanguages&highlight=tamil+elder+sanskrit+Gandhi 0

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Dr.Vijaya Rajiva says:

July 7, 2010 at 11:47 pm
I found this article very informative. Request to Senthil: the Tamil quotes could be translated into English for readers who are not familiar with Tamil.I myself speak Tamil but do not read it. I have delved into the question of the Tamil Conference and have written about it : Karunanidhi and Asko Parapola: An Unlikely Duo (Haindava Keralam,06/07/2010): http://haindavakeralam.com/HKPage.aspx?PageID=11511 0 0 Rate This
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r.kannan says:
July 8, 2010 at 10:50 am
My Dear Senthil your blog is eye opener but unfortunately most of ours are closed.Evey topic is very interesting but I fear how to make others to wake up.I am told by my elders that the vedas have a reference to dravidam language which is second to samskrit which they have mentioned as deva basha and dravidam as manushya.ok.However i hope that vedas were smiruthis and were mostly learnt by hearing and reciting.So the question of formatting a language after thousands of years and also interpreting their meanings by different people of different time at different levels cannot be taken as an authority.Because Mr.Karunanidhis observations as a chief minister will be recorded in one way and in a different way as an ordinary citizen.But Mr.Senthils opinions can change the fate of Tamilnadu if he becomes as a chief minister.I feel the interpretation of tholkappiyam and vedas also bound to be different as those things lacks authenticity. 0
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senthil says:
April 10, 2011 at 9:48 pm
Thanks kannan.. there is no such thing called dravidam language.. common people spoke prakrutham, which vary from region to region.. whereas samskritam were used by learned men, which has standards.. Even in samskritam, there are two variations.. vaidiha samskritam & loukika samskritham.. The entire perspective of language has to be changed for us to understand these things.. 0
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Nihar says:
July 9, 2010 at 2:18 pm
Great work Senthil, Very well articulated! A complete translation of the Tamil verses you quote may be of great help. Regards
Nihar 0
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Ram says:
July 9, 2010 at 4:56 pm
1. Does not in anyway Tamils Believe that Tolkaappiyam is the primordial Tamil Grammar,But Extant Tamil Grammar work of the Sangam Age. 2.
In the Kingdom of Pandyan that grants Lands for - That tongue which spells righteousness, considering the wisdom from four directions to those limits that the sage envisions through his internal strength. To Equate Nawn marai to Vedas had begun in the post sangam period specially during the Bhakti Period.Nawn Marai simply should refer to worldly wisdom aggregated from all directions.Probably there could have been a treatise in similar name in earlier Lost-Sangam Works. 3. -The tradition that did not fade for the syllables re-discovered. -after the water in the oceans receded(Varai-pin,pinvaangiya.ponguneermalguneer) the capable saint who controlled five senses(Aindiran) .. 4.(that which describes nature or that is a natural order in language Tamil) (that which is produced word or that turns out of a natural word or that is indicative of a deviation in the natural order) (that which has come and joined from directions from other languages and distances) (Flexed words-significantly belonging to Isai Tamizh lately recognisable with vowel-consonental orders) ..There was no concept of Sanskrit or Prakrit during the time Tolkaappiyam was written else the presumption of using Vada to refer to a maiden language would have been avoided.Moreover as earlier pointed out Tisaichol points to all set of words landing from directions.One may argue Tisai is Sanskrit,let me tell you that it could have been derived from the Tamil Tee(refer to Sun) and directions that emanate from that. -the flexed words are formed with the usage of syllables that are flexed into orders by using the Aytham(specially to represent the unlimited expressions of isai tamizh). (that will adapt to the syllable system to form a equivalent word yet remain distinct..
The Lands 12 in number that are adjacent or joined to the Chentamizh Land
brings in various words categorized as tisaichol. 1

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N Y Murali says:
June 1, 2013 at 4:35 pm
Ram. Your information that the word nanmarai had a different meaning during Sangam period and that it means as the Vedas only during Bakthi period is totally wrong. Paripadal an oldest of available Sangam literature tells about Vaigai River which got polluted by various flowers and other mud mixing in its water due to heavy rain and the Brahmin priests hesitated to take dip in the water. It used the word nanmaraiyaalar to denote the Brahmins. Silapadhikaaram mentions many detail about Brahmins. In fact the marriage of Kovalan and Kannagi took place with Bramins chanting the Vedas and it says that they came round the Holy Pyre. The were many Brahmin characters like Kousigan Mankaattu Maraiyon to quote a few. Seevaga Chintamani quotes that Seevagan when wanted to marry Vayandhamaalai disguised himself in the form an old Brahmin and sung Sama veda to impress her. The author of many Sangam literature belong to Brahmin community. Kallil Athreyanaar means he is from Athreya Gothra. Perum Kousiganaar from Kousiga Gothra.This trend of poets calling them with their gothra name continued in the bakthi movement when Thirugnana Sambandhar called himself Kavunian meaning he is from Kaundanya Gothra. 1
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Venkat says:
July 9, 2010 at 7:26 pm
Ram Are you one of those pseudo dravidians ? Why do you want to see Tolkappiam with the jaundiced dravidian racist eyes ? naan maRai is the four Vedas. Before the Mahabharata war (ie before Krishna Dvaipayana Vyasa) there was but one Veda. So, it becomes clear that Tolkappiam is post Mahabharata. athan kottu aasaan is the person eulogised here with the attributes of always talking aRam and who is an ultimate scholar of the naan maRai
I always wanted to write about why the Vedas were called as maRai. To understand this one has to look at the translations of Griffith and Maz Mueller on the net. The content is so pedestrian when literally translated ! Now move on to Sri madhwa or Raghavendra Teertha or Sri Aurobindo ! What a difference it makes ! The Devatas are brought out to us as representing the will, mind, the senses, the cosmic will and so on. This symbology is but just one level of understanding. (adhyaatmik). There are two other aadi yagnik and aadi daivik. The karma kandis represent the Vedas in the yagnic way and the upasaks interpret it through Adidaivik route. But the point is that there is but one mantra potent with all these variations. It is no secret now that Veda mantras are coded secrets hidden from the casual reader and the profane one. Hence the maRai is an apt term. VaLLuvar also uses maRai to denote sacred text of the land. (nilathu maRai poruL kaatti vidum) ainthiram is the older sanskrit grammar. vada sol is sanskrit. Lastly, a question: where does the kaappiyam in Tolkappiars name come from ? From chaste Tamil ? Do not fool yourself anymore. The time is up for such divisive views. In five years, there will be only a handful of people to interpret sangam literature. Keep your views alive till then and they will keep you in exhibitions of their time. 0
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N Y Murali says:
June 1, 2013 at 4:40 pm
In fact Tamil has one more nice word for Vedas which is YezhudaaK Kilavi meaning unwritten verse. 0
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Ram says:
July 9, 2010 at 9:37 pm
Firstly you have started attributing my posting with a vision and perception you carry where as i am not hinting any one as wrong or right and only making my point. To presume Tamil emanated from sanskrit is a notion carried with a perception which according to me is wrong, infact i am of the strong opinion that sanskrit was a language for communication with inner-self and extra-terrestials. It was never a spoken language and would never be for the programme of sanskrit is not for lay conversation.No historical evidence support sanskrit as a
spoken language,except in later period-1000 AD and forward the language do not exihibit such approach even in literature. Infact most of the meanings we derive today of the vedas are interpretational. To talk about Tamil is interpreted here as: Are you one of those pseudo dravidians ? Why do you want to see Tolkappiam with the jaundiced dravidian racist eyes ? Then the same hold good and very strongly in favour of Sanskrit first theorist as well,though they can out number Tamil Linguist easily and hence greater voice.Might is right!!! It doesn`t in anyway belittle the beauty and credence of both these independant yet archiac stream of languages. How do you equate Veda and Marai based on some derived meanings? What is the meaning of veda or Vaedaw(to be precise)-Knowledge repository. Marai-that which is elucidated-otherwise beyond reach. Vaed might be derived from vid-vidya. Why these two different tradition refer to the one in explaining a independent stream of thought. Either those who practised these traditions were conversant with both the streams or they were drawing from each other.Does that make one stream a subject of the other? I have a strong belief that Sanskrit is a Varient of Tamil and Tamil gets the primordial stature by virtue of its long tradition (evidenced by literature and epigraphy)and the language structure which is the best and the most distant in the past.Its Aytham is the evolute syllable for the Order of vowel and consonant clusters in possibly sanskrit and other spoken languages and sanskrit is very specific and focussed on metaphysical communication.Prakrit and Apabrahmsa substituted it for spoken dialects. For your question Tolkaappiyam: Tol-Distant Past Kaappu-Protect/ preserve Iyam-Store House. Infact Vaeda can also be interpreted as Vaelvi-Sacrificial oblations(Tamil)for Veda is nothing but Vaelvi,See the first verse of the Rg-Vaeda-Agnim Ide Purohitam.Hotaaram Ratna daatamam HowZatt!! Feel Free to debate not caste aspersions since more you hurt others it hurts you more. 1
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kedarnath says:
July 9, 2010 at 10:36 pm
namaste sri venkat, some of the most perplexing things can have very simple answers. Language is primal and elementary. A three or four year old taught by its mother is a greater linguist than all the max mullers, etc. <> I note with very great interest that you say the four vedas ara naan maRai forgetting about the krishna and mahabharatha my child like questionwas why didnt tolkappiar say veda? when he could pronounce difficult to pronounce words for non tamizh adults? If it is indeed the veda is meant what could the etymology be? Then I remember have done some work on extracting single svara words from the monier williams dictionary. (i quote this person often because I would like some European to say he has been wishy washy and not a scholar. He mentions correctly the Na means knowledge and is probably the primal alternative to j~ja Anybody looking up Maya English dictionary (of Meso and South Americas) will find ======= maya english dictionary nna adv) marker of future; or certainty na v) to feel, to taste; to acquaint ones self; estimate na -ib v) to be afraid nabaj v) to remind nabal n) appetite nabal re n) taste test of something naoj n) knowledge; idea naom adj) felt all these are related to knowledge and the mind and feeling. what about mar beginning words the dictionary has maramaq rij n) goosebumps mararik v) to become rough or calloused mrin n) scarab beetle In general these are dark colored and lo you will find mor adj) purple this is the color of death
rij adj) old; mature rij winaq n) old person rijil n) old age; maturity rijite adj) decrepit with age rijobik n) old age; maturity rijobik v) to age; to grow old; to mature rijobinaqil n) old age; maturity rijobisaj v) to make something old rik v) to unfold; spread out reconstructing the three yo have knowledge relating to the (death and after death religion) ======= monier williams 177434 mara * [mara]1[mara] m. ( [mRu] ) dying, death ( [pari-mara] ) 177435 mara ~> the world of death, i. e. the earth #AitUp. 177436 mara ~> mfn. killing ( [nRu-mara] ) 177437 mara ~> m. pl. the inhabitants of hell #ryabh 177826 marta * [marta]1[m'arta] m. ( [mRu] ) a mortal, man #RV. #VS. ( in later literature prob. w. r. for [martya] ) 177827 marta ~> the world of mortals, the earth #U . iii, 86 #Sch. [Gk. ?, ? ; [791 ,1] Lat. [morts], [mortalis].] ======= I entirely support your stating <> I believe there is great need to have pride and trust in our heritage and ancestors. I believe it not a lie that the mothers in India (as anywhere else probably) teach their children two things language and to beware of strangers. Thanks for this opportunity to share. regards 0
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Ram says:
July 10, 2010 at 1:54 pm
@ Kedarnath Great to see your amazing method of picking an admixture of sounds and words across the world to make your point in congruence with the post made earlier. According to what i comprehend from your post the following emerge:
1.Mother is a greater linguist of the world than anybody. 2.Naa transforms from N ja or N gya representation in Sanskrit,whereby linking the syllable to Ngayna. 3.Your wild representation of Mar for MaRai and relating it to Maaya and Darkness. And Hence the support of your logic to an earlier post as congruent to your analysis. Let me analyse your readings: 1.You are absolutely right in the statement that Mother is a greater linguist of the World. 2.If Tolkaapiyar/panampaaranaar wanted to represent Nja or Ngya in Tamil he was welcome to have done so easily with a Tamil syllable more appropriately available at that time and Gnyaandru,Gnyaayiru are some representations easily accessible in his time,why should he hide this into Na or Naa.Even presuming so, how does it support the argument that he used Naan to represent four sections of the Single Vaeda(Contrary to the claim there are four vaedas there is only one and it has four sections)Naan in Tamil means Established emanating from Naatru,Naandru,Nandru-see in Avvai Agaval Naandra Vaayum,Naaliru Buyamum..To relate an unrelated and trying to correlate is futile exercise. 3.Marai In Tamil Has varied meanings one is the Veil One is to Fix one is representing the Sacredness one is esoteric knowledge or Revelation,why should we make a merry go round to identify the meaning of this word in another dictionaries and lexicon. Conclusively if Cirappupaayiram wanted to exhibit Tolkaapiyans knowledge on the Vedas it could have come straight Jacket and need not search for a blanket for future linguist to guess around. 0
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Venkat says:
July 10, 2010 at 4:30 pm
you are still the same evasive self Ram. Your non mention of AthankOttu aasaan is itself an indication. Agastya wrote Agastyam. Tolkaappiar wrote Tolkaapiam. So, the name of the work is derived from the name of the author. Why the skewed interpretation of Tol + kaapu+ iyam. The author says his name is Tolkappian. Period. From his name the name of the work evolved and not vice versa. What you will save /lose if ThiraNa dhoomaagni is indeed Tolkaappiar ? Because
he was a brahmaNa ? If that is the case, it is understandable. Tamil OBC s are itching to have a go at the brahmaNas. That can not be stopped. Or is it because, the Tamils have so much of disconnect with Vedas and samskrutam ? For close to thousand years, Tamil Bhakti literature centred around Tamil songs of Devaaram/ Prabandam and hence Tamils are more used to derived Hindu works rather than the root. But if racism is at the root of your comments/ or just a perverse satisfaction of writing just for the sake of confrontation, God save you. 0
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Ram says:
July 10, 2010 at 5:31 pm
What if these people are Brahmins,the issue is not of the caste or birth aspersions but the distinct stream of language and their command over this.Who said Brahmins were Sanskritist or Aryan were Aliens.These are all your deep rooted wrong presumptions which you blow air often.I am not going to indulge in rectifying your views here.My focus is on to put forth my views on the text under discussion. AaSaan/AaChaan/Aasiriyan are the derivative meanings of the person referred to being attached to the Root Aa(Mother/Source)one who knows or guides the sourceAa vai Chawrndha villakkam alikka koodiyavan. Like Arivudaiyavan Aariyan. It is panampaaranaar who describes the name of the author in the cirappupaayiram as tolkaapiyam and not the tolkaappiyan in his work tolkaapiyam. Again a very wrong notion that Tamils(Brahmins) have a Disconnect with Sanskrit because of devotional Tamil literature,of course you are free to carry this notion as a flag so long as you feel. Again last para is a pre posturous presumption which could be avoided in any meaningful discussion. 0
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senthil says:
July 15, 2010 at 8:43 pm
/** What if these people are Brahmins,the issue is not of the caste or birth aspersions but the distinct stream of language and their
command over this.Who said Brahmins were Sanskritist or Aryan were Aliens.These are all your deep rooted wrong presumptions which you blow air often. **/ Ram.. Its NOT we who are saying this.. Rather its parpola, witzel, iravadham mahadevam and all those so called indologists who are saying this.. the entire AIT theory is based on this.. And the whole dravidian movement is based on this.. The very purpose of this post is to establish the fact that brahmins had contributed much to tamil, and hence the tamil cannot a Dravidian language.. Please remember, i too agree with you, that tamil is different from sanskrit and is a distinct language.. My view is that tamil and sanskrit had lot of mutual influences, and to see it from exclusive view is flawed.. 1
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Ram says:
July 10, 2010 at 5:48 pm
Please read the explanation given in my first post:Reproduced 2. A. B. C. A.In the Kingdom of Pandyan that grants Lands for - B.That tongue which spells righteousness, considering the wisdom from four directions C. to those limits that the sage envisions through his internal strength. Your Next question will be why did the author used Sanskrit word Tapa in this verseDear Look at this independant Source: Tapas in Metaphysics(as against Sanskrit)refers to a process of self denial to obtain liberation. In Tamil the Popular word Tavi is very equivalent to this process of self-denial now if you still insist it is Sanskrit,look at this the word emanating from Teevinainegating(That effect out of the burns)Teevi-Tavi. Now i have used it as introspectionTanvizhi-yawl from ones own eye of the self. Just to link a similar pronouncing word as emanating from another language without knowing the context when particularly the word has travelled twohttp://psenthilraja.wordpress.com/2010/07/06/influence-of-sanskrit-over-tamil/[31-08-2013 18:54:09]
thousand years is just ignorance in Linguistics. 0

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apexprecitech says:
July 15, 2010 at 2:24 pm
TEEVI- TAVI is funny linguistics Ram. I better be ignorant of my not knowing it. Root theory in language is a refined study and is it not time for you to take up some basic books now ? No, I would even suggest you take up an elementary grade book on Tamil which will tell you thee (bad, horrible, harmful) + vinai = theevinai. Even your Tamil is foundering. tapa is a Rigvedic word. Before you dissect it , you have to prove historically that Tamil preceded it. No finnish hypotheses please. What is Tamil metahysics ? Ha ha ! sounds a new field developed by you. As far as I know, Tamil metaphysics is either Vedic, jainist or Buddhist. If you know some other, let us know. We will crown you with the first Doctorate in that discipline. Enough of slippery words. You are not going anywhere and we all could see through your empty arguments. I have a balanced view of Tamil Sanmkritam equation and know enough Samskritam (both Chandas and Bhasha) to analyze with a proper perspective. If you want to engage me on Tamil- Sanskrit, first let me know how much of Samskritam (apexpreci@gmail.com) you know. Other wise it will be a wasteful excercise. Even your quoting of RVs first mantra was flawed. 0
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raghu1967 says:
July 16, 2010 at 6:26 am
I think it is wasteful exercise to comment on your posts since you have so much of prejudice in reading and on a self-pat mode of the knowledge you perceive to have achieved. In the best interest i would suggest you to carry your perceptions along so far as you can stretch and leave the perceptions of other in their own arena. What i could conclude from your counter discussion is that you always feel happy in a mode that carries the maxim -
I am right you are wrong Best Of Luck. 0

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raghu1967 says:
July 16, 2010 at 6:36 am
..I have a balanced view of Tamil Sanmkritam equation. Ha Ha Ha !!!! Sanskrit is God Tamil is Farce and believe me this is Balanced by very modern superconductive scale. 0
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raghu1967 says:
July 16, 2010 at 7:39 am
If you want to engage me on Tamil- Sanskrit, first let me know how much of Samskritam Again a Prepostourous Underestimation of others capacity. 0
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Shanmugham says:
June 6, 2011 at 2:18 pm
Dear all.. I suggest you read these threads. They are interesting in language point: http://www.mayyam.com/talk/showthread.php?2979-Tamil-selderliness-to-worldlanguages&highlight=tamil+elder+sanskrit+Gandhi http://forumhub.com/tlit/6767.25781.01.09.07.html 0
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senthil says:
June 29, 2011 at 12:44 pm
Ram, what do you mean by righteousness? In sanskrit it is called Dharma.. in tamil it is called aRam () ..
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Ram says:
July 10, 2010 at 6:52 pm
In the Process you have started hating Tamil Devotional Literature,which again has independant source and revelations though may at many palces draw parallels with existing sanskrit texts. While you blame others of hate campaigns i am pained by the amount of hate you are spelling here. Vaishnavite tradition embeds this set of literature into their composite culture and even treat more than par with Vedas at times even in temple worship as well as other daily anusandhaanams. Saivaites do also rever their literature as esoteric and revealed by the Lord Himself. By commenting on these texts in a low context you are trying to hurt the sentiments of true Vaishnavite and Saivite.As well as the Lord themself who revealed these texts for their devotees. 1
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apexprecitech says:
July 15, 2010 at 2:30 pm
Do not put your words in my mouth. Lead me to one sane saivite who tells Devaaram is a revealed one. Same for Vaishnavite. Tradition does not equal a scripture. Even cow dung splashing on floor is tradition but not a revered act. Nowhere in Vedas adorning the Tripundaram or Urdhva Pundaram is unknown. These are evolutions. Do not be under the illusion that I am writing for you. This is for those who have a chance to be misled by your ignorant comments. If you want to take up study of Devaram and Prabandam, let me give you a pre conclusion. They are derived Puranic texts with Vedic messages splashed across here and there. It is the Purana + Tantra + Yoga religion that is living as Hinduism. Venkat 0 0 Rate This
raghu1967 says:
July 16, 2010 at 6:10 am
..Same for Vaishnavite. ..This is for those who have a chance to be misled by your ignorant comments. I am a Srivaishnavite and i know better how the scriptures such as Prabhandham has come down to us ,so shut your sharing wicked wisdom to the group. ********************************************** .let me give you a pre conclusion. Why dont you also preconclude since Aa.oo Ma constitutes the compound syllable Aum is available in Sanskrit the entire syllables of the world belongs to sanskrit. Your logic can be reversed entirely in favour of prabhandham and Devaram as well. 0
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senthil says:
July 10, 2010 at 10:06 pm
@Ram My replies below.. /** Does not in anyway Tamils Believe that Tolkaappiyam is the primordial Tamil Grammar,But Extant Tamil Grammar work of the Sangam Age. **/ Yes.. i too mentioned that in my post.. Tolkappiar was refining an earlier available tamil grammar.. but no one knows what that book was.. Do you? /** In the Kingdom of Pandyan that grants Lands for - That tongue which spells righteousness, considering the wisdom from four directions to those limits that the sage envisions through his internal strength. ***/ righteousness Dharma isnt all three same? /** To Equate Nawn marai to Vedas had begun in the post sangam period
specially during the Bhakti Period.Nawn Marai simply should refer to worldly wisdom aggregated from all directions. **/ In the word , = Four.. = wisdom .. Thats fine.. but where is the direction here? Literally translating, it comes as Four Wisdom as per your translation.. The word Four need not always point to directions.. For argumental sake, i would allow your questioning of equating to vedas.. but, for that matter, your explanation invoking directions here is lacking logic.. /*** -after the water in the oceans receded(Varai-pin,pinvaangiya.ponguneermalguneer) the capable saint who controlled five senses(Aindiran) **/ why cant it be ? if we split as + , it doesnt make sense here.. more over, we have to consider the previous line here for interpretation.. is different from .. more over, how did you interpret as five senses? is what which denotes five senses.. am i right? While i partly agree with you that need not be aindram school of grammar, we dont have alternative meaning for this as of now.. so, i am considering it as aindram school of grammar till i get convincing interpretation.. so as of now, my interpretation for will be the one who is master at the aindram grammar.. /** (Flexed words-significantly belonging to Isai Tamizh lately recognisable with vowel-consonental orders) **/ Again, i question your interpretation.. when did meant Flexed? More over, when tolkappiar defines disai sol as words from 12 adjoining areas of tamil regions, naturally, vatasol means the region beyond that.. ie, to North of the adjoining regions.. (and there is no region in the south.. /** There was no concept of Sanskrit or Prakrit during the time Tolkaappiyam was written **/ Any proofs? Prakrutam predates tamil, because it is the language of the common masses.. Sanskrit is NOT peoples language, but the language of the learned men, and sanskrit is artificial and very structured.. Similarly, in tamil, the literary tamil is NOT the peoples language.. rather its the language of the learned.. And finally one question..
What do you say for the word ? Is it not brahmin? When tamil has separate word for brahmin, why NOT it have for vedas? 0
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bala says:
February 22, 2013 at 12:21 am
( , , , http://ta.wikipedia.org/s/80l 0
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senthil says:
What you said is actually called Purushaartham dharma, artha, kaama, moksha.. in tamil this is called , , , .. purushartham is different from vedas clearly indicates its four vedas.. marai denotes vedas and not purushaartham.. 0
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Ram says:
July 11, 2010 at 7:33 am
The Premise and assertion you rely upon is that any word that has a bearing on Sanskrit culture appearing in Tamil should be equated to Sanskrit and it is a thinking from the cultural ethos one would try to equate to find solutions to independant problems.Here your problem is to create a connect of Tamil in Sanskrit culture,which may not be real but dramatic. See how TiruValluvars work is tried to be appropriated by Vedic religion,Buddhism,Jainism,Christianity,and Islam.Why would anyone not attempt to read it in Pure Tamil Settings.Just Because One who is reading it now or earlier is a Brahmin he would like to create a Brahminical setting,A Father would like to read it close to Bible and Like Wise. Now see How the Word Veda is atleast appropriated by all religion to refer to their holy books as well. A Linguist and an impartial language reader should stay away from these interpretations and read the book as Tamil and Tamil CultureHowever Tamil and Tamil and Tamil Culture may synchronise with Sanskrit and Sanskrit culture.
This does not give us an argument that Tamil is a Subject of Sanskrit. These are two independant and excellent streams in themselves. They have survived cultures and times. Now coming to your counters one by one: 1. Yes.. i too mentioned that in my post.. Tolkappiar was refining an earlier available tamil grammar.. but no one knows what that book was.. Do you? Does this give one an leverage to say that Tamil Grammarian relied on Sanskrit Text to draw Tamil inferenceThis again is on a premise that Sanskrit Grammar Preceded Tamil and Tamil stream has to depend on Sanskrit stream.If you read it contextually it is not only refering to earlier text but also the learning part of it which was thoroughwhy should one learn Sanskrit to tenet Tamil Grammar. Would your argument have been the same if panini made the statement in the like mannerthat Panini would have read Tamil Grammar to tenet Sanskrit Grammarif not your argument is biased. Moreover if you had read Tol there are umpteen references to earlier tamil works preceding to this work. ********************************************************* 2. righteousness Dharma isnt all three same? What is the point you are trying to make ! If Tea-Chai-taeneer are one and the same Chai being Hindi is primordial and the rest are subjugated and this is the imperialist argument. ***************************************************** 3.In the word , = Four.. = wisdom .. Thats fine.. but where is the direction here? Literally translating, it comes as Four Wisdom as per your translation.. The word Four need not always point to directions.. I have given adequate expalnation in the earlier post suffice to state that Naan can primarily represent self Naan can also represent fourand four need not represent four sections of the Veda samhita,it can however represent Directions as well.Contextual explanation has already adduced by me earlier. It is an attempt to customise the meaning of a tamil word in a sanskrit environment that makes you derive a conclusion such as the one you had adduced which may not be the intention. ********************************************************** why cant it be ? if we split as + , it doesnt make sense here.. more over, we have to consider the previous line here for interpretation.. This shows that the Tol was a Scholar emminant after a deluge,when the land was restored i could not interpret in anyother wayAindiram Niraindaif Aindiram was a book he was refering to he could have used any other suitable word other than Nirainda(Full of qualities)What Qualities-Aindiran-Five qualities(probably refering to the control of senses)hence an ascetic.Now an Ascetic could be Brahmin and could know Sanskrit as well but definitely the reference here is not to a sanskrit work.Knowledge of Sanskrit does not in anyway make a Tamil a Less Tamil or More Tamil,it makes him a Tamil when he
delivers Tamil and a Sanskritist when he delivers Sanskrit and that is all. ************************************************ Tolkaapiyar uses three types of prevalent words: Iyar,Tiri,Tisai Iyar that is orginal that fits to tamil,tiri that comes corrupted from other languages and dialects and tisai that comes from various directions.After telling this he specifically referes to Vada-not direction for it is covered in Tisai.He probably indicates the flexations in the syllables that are not evolved in Iyar Tamil(but allowed in Isai Tamil-refer Tol)These flexations are Orders of vowels and consonants and hence Vadaintha Chorkkal. Sanskrit has developed four orders but Tol himself cites unlimited possibilities in Isai Tamil. ******************************************************** Sanskrit has a special place in human evolution on Earthits structure given by the rishis who evolved it is for a limited sequence of communication between Humans and God and the Inner self in this context it was never and would never be a Manushya Bhasha. ************************************************ If andanan happens to be a brahmin or i accept that argument does it in anyway subject Tamil to Sanskrit?This are emotional issues than linguistic issues. ***************************************************** My request to you all is read Tamil in Tamil Context as you read Sanskrit in Sanskrit Context then there will be more clarity of thoughts. 0
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. says:
July 11, 2010 at 12:08 pm
.. .
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Ram says:
July 11, 2010 at 1:40 pm
On why I Feel Tamil Could Be A Primordial Language that led to evolution of other language structures including possibly Sanskrit and not the other way round: Please Discuss this Topic without emotions and Spelling Venoms against a
Language and a Language Group: 1.Tamil And Sanskrit: The Common Source of these languages have remained to be explored due to sheer extraneous and other than linguistic considerations. 2.While it is very difficult to point out which language stands first in antiquity or whether humans started with a language structure or a language was a derivative of a group of spoken words in each community,it is definitely possible to pinpoint the antiquity of a particular language structure from literary perspective. 3.To share with you my perception of why i feel that Tamil could have been the primordial language or the syllable structure of Tamil could have guided, future development of encryption in other languages including and probably Sanskrit. 4.1.Tamil structure of sound or syllable encryption recognises Vowel and consonent clustre in the first order.If this was not a primary phase of development of language structure or if Sanskrit was Impacting Tolkaapiyan as is being put forth here then the structure developed would have been differentas is evident in all the apabrahmsa-pali-prakrit-and other dravidian languages.This single point is sufficient to prove the primitiveness of Tamil Over Sanskrit. 4.2.Tamil has Aytham which syllable has helped in development of encrypting consonental and Vowel orders probably in sanskrit and other Indic languages. 4.3.Tamil grammar as schematized in Tolakaapiyam do not restrain a length of a vowel or degree of a consonent and as has aptly been clarified by the Author that the restriction of Maththirai is to Iyar Tamizh and not to the Isai Tamizh which has unlimited exponentiation. 4.4.If Tamil syllable encryption structure was not primordial,then it would have followed the course of other languages(including other dravidian)in encrypting orders by inter-extrapolating probably the Aytham. 4.5.While restricting encryption to the first order- syllable for iyar tamizh, the phonetic values based on conventional positions have been adduced by language users.Thus while a word begins in the first order consonent,it goes to the second order anywhere else appearing in the word which can be reduced to first order by placing a preceding meyezhuttu. 4.6 Moreover the development of vowel-consonant(UyirMey)and categorisation of sounds as Vallinam -Mellinam and Idaiyinam is Unique to Tamil Sound System. 4.7.While Sanskrit is considered as perfect for developing consonental orders,it could still not encrypt all the permutation and combination of pronounciations and sound production which is infinite.Thus if one goes into the dynamics of sound production(Vocal Chord Differentiation) and encryption it will be difficult to contain those consonental sound delivery within the four orders without erring in the encryption of sound produced and simply this has been taken by the
Tolkaapiyar as isai tamizh which need not be subject to encryption.Thus Tamil scheme of things did recognise that limitation of encryption of phonetics,which is not limited to writing but emanates from speeches varied through vocal chord dynamics.The neuter(Ha)Aytham took care of the softening and hardening but remained primordial discovery to be implemented through Sanskrit scheme of things for encryption. 4.8.Added to this confusion prevails in using particular order of vowel-consonant that remains in framing words with the right kind of syllables,and questioning why a particular order cannot be placed instead of chosen order of a consonant for the particular syllable in a word remains unanswered in the Sanskrit scheme of things. 1
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raghu1967 says:
July 11, 2010 at 6:53 pm
Simply fantastic Dissection Kedarnathji. 0

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Amrione Guy says:

July 12, 2010 at 3:14 am
Ill follow your advice. Most of the time i only read marriage/relationship matter at mierue.com 0
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kedarnath says:
July 13, 2010 at 10:02 am
namaskaram, I am pleased to upload fuully analyzable [tolkAppiyam] http://www.scribd.com/doc/34247967/Tolkappiyam-Multi-Script-Analyzable the above web address has the tiny url http://tinyurl.com/2evuptv 1 This PDF file is made from a spreadsheet. It is in the [tolkAppiyam] word list
mode. In this mode a list of all the words in the document can be seen in the columns 18 word Baraha 19 word tamizh script 20 word telugu script 21 word- kannada script 22 word devanagari The column 3 Baraha sort has numbers 1 to 18003 The contents of the PDF file should be copied into a spreadsheet carefully and certain steps detailed below taken for your own study and analysis.. After transferring to a spreadsheet you can read [tolkAppiyam] as you would a simple text document in multiple language scripts. And also study and analyze the document using the full power of spreadsheet software in a professional and scholarly manner. great regards 0
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kedarnath says:
July 13, 2010 at 10:05 am
namasthe senthil ji I noticeded a small typo error in my post it should read fully and not fuully 0
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senthil says:
July 14, 2010 at 11:37 pm
kedarnath ji.. Your previous two comments, listing out the words are too long so that we need to scroll much to read further comments.. as of now i am putting in to moderation .. i suggest you to have it as attachment some where and give the
link here.. Please let me know if you have any other ideas/suggestions.. 0
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kedarnath says:
July 15, 2010 at 1:53 am
namaste sentil ij, thanks for your message I have given the link where the pdf files has been published. regards. 0
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senthil says:
July 15, 2010 at 9:21 pm
@Ram /** righteousness Dharma isnt all three same? What is the point you are trying to make ! **/ All three point to the prevailing culture across the entire sub-continent.. while sanskrit refers this common cultural aspect as Dharma, tamil refers it as .. but the linguistics are attempting to create racial divide based on this linguistics.. /** I have given adequate expalnation in the earlier post suffice to state that Naan can primarily represent self Naan can also represent fourand four need not represent four sections of the Veda samhita,it can however represent Directions as well.Contextual explanation has already adduced by me earlier. **/ Please review your explanation, if it sounds logical.. naan marai as per your definition comes as My Wisdom.. is tolkaapiar speaking about his wisdom? I think, there is not much contradiction with us.. I am not saying tamil came from sanskrit.. what i am saying is the evolution of concept of language grammar, which both tamil and grammar could have both contributed & sourced from..
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raghu1967 says:
July 16, 2010 at 7:04 am
@ Senthil I read yesterday one enthusiast was deciphering a Harappan Symbol as Na-MaNa,I am not an expert in Harappan Symbols,presuming he had deciphered the symbol as Namana correctly he interpreted the sam as Naman and concluded the isolate symbol as Sanskrit,Now let me share with you the word Naman also is widely used Tamil word specially in devotional literature with a meaning entirely distinct from Sanskrit Naman. Since Isolate symbols can give words in use of many languages it would be prepostourous to conclude on the basis of such isolate studies with a whole lot of circumstances that need to be read into. I agree with you that Nawn Marai could be read into as En Marai or even Nawvin Marai I agree that these two languages did not operate in a vacumm environment,but to say that Sanskrit is mother of Tamil is an oversimplification of a cause not substantiated with ground realities. I have posted one article here through which i believe Tamil has a primordial language structure. Another friend here has already concluded that : It is the Purana + Tantra + Yoga religion that is living as Hinduism. He probably believes that these references are sourced to sanskrit,but the truth is Hinduism is an assimilation of Thought Process and evolutionaryHinduism is a broader concept and nascent terminology but embeds Vedic,puranic,tribal thoughts and all the set of visionaries that constitutes Hindu experience. 0
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senthil says:
July 16, 2010 at 10:40 am
/** I agree that these two languages did not operate in a vacumm environment,but to say that Sanskrit is mother of Tamil is an oversimplification of a cause not substantiated with ground realities. I have posted one article here through which i believe Tamil has a primordial language structure. **/ I have never said that sanskrit is mother of tamil.. you can check in the post contents too.. I accept the individuality of tamil and sanskrit..
What i oppose here is the dravidian racism propogated through the linguistics divide.. my main motive is to establish a point that languages both tamil and sanskrit is NOT attributed to any race, and that the first known tamil grammar is written by a brahmin.. And secondly, @Ram is trying to establish that tamil developed everything on its own, right from its scripts to all the words it have, and all the philosophies it have etc.. I do not agree with this stand too.. The tamil scripts may be independant.. but there are enough words sourced from other regions, languages that establish strong connection of tamil region with other parts of india.. The concept of dharma as aRam and vedas as maRai prove the point that those existed in tamil region also, but tamil had a tamil word to denote those.. So, instead of locking ourselves on which is mother of which, we need to explore the mutual interactions of the languages.. If we believe, that all language evolved on its own in an isolated region, that could only be a wrong presumption .. 0
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kedarnath says:
July 16, 2010 at 10:49 am
namaskAraM, 1. fundamentals of pronunciation of the elements of language/communication is the first key factor. 2. the probability of two persons having mechanically identical (like a tape recorder sound reproduction) pronunciation is very very very low. 3. some of the very rare words in the sanskrit language (easily looked up in any dictionary) are interesting to study. The rarity of these words could be due to difficulty or differences in pronunciation (between and within clusters in the population) A very high frequency of words begin with [va] in sanskrit. But this theory wll flop hearing sanskrit in bengal. 4. these are the only entries in monier williams dictionary having 296512 entries I have listed * [~ja]1[~ja]1 the palatal nasal ( found before palatal consonants ) * [~jakAra]3[~ja-kAra] m. the letter * [~j]3[~j] * [~ja]1[~ja]2 m. a singer #L. ~> a jingling sound #L. ~> a heretic #L.
~> an ox #L. ~> the planet ukra #L. The words beginning with ~j in 18003 tolkAppIyam words are ~ja ~jakArattu ~jakAram ~jakArai ~jakAraiyum ~jA~gkark ~jApakam ~jAyiRu ~jAlattu ~jAvum ~jemirtalum ~jemaiyum which of these are pure dravidian. it will be interesting to know the viewpoints of the tamizh scholars on which of these are pure dravidian 0
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Ram says:
July 16, 2010 at 11:29 am
@ Kedar Ja is not a Consonent or a Vowel-consonent recognised in Tamil Or Tolkappiyam.Ja is an import at the first place in a Syllable and Tolkappiyam does not have such a usage.Possible this is the transliteration error in BARAHA.please can you give the exact characters of these world in Tamil for a meaningful understanding. Regards RAM 0
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Ram says:
July 16, 2010 at 11:32 am
@ Kedar Softwares have their own limitations and unless we primarily have some knowledge of a language our analysis may go haywire. For Instance if i try to probe Telugu semantics without basic knowledge of Telugu i will land in funny conclusions.
Regards Ram 0
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Ram says:
July 16, 2010 at 12:11 pm
~jApakam ~jAyiRu ~jAlattu ~jAvum i could read the above as .Gnyaabakam-To Remember,GnyaayiruSunday,Gnyaalaththu-of the cosmos,Gnyaavum-Including the entire Gamut of Creation. These are verily Tamil Words except you may have resemblence in Sanskrut on the first word -Gynya representing Knowledge in Sanskrit. 0
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Venkat says:
July 16, 2010 at 2:51 pm
TO Raghu 1967 you wrote >>>>>>I am a Srivaishnavite and i know better how the scriptures such as Prabhandham has come down to us ,so shut your sharing wicked wisdom to the group.>>>>> You missed my point. Did you not notice the prefix sane before the word Vaishnavite ? In my opinion, Azhwars were great upasaks of Vishnu (of the trimurthy line). Saivas are upasaks of Shiva (of the same trimurthy line). You know the trimurthy worship came only after the Puranas. In Gita, Arjuna sees the trimurthys in Krishnas virat swarupam. Krishna says that he is Paramatman. But Azhwars worshipped the limited Vishnu as Paramatman- a definite superimposition. A painful fact for Vaishnavites but true nevertheless.
Prabandam speaks of PuraNic lore in nearly 80 % of songs. Even Nammaazhwar, the most abstract of the twelve, has too many Puranic stuff packed in his songs. I see them as part of the Bhakti movement, which is a latest appendage to the Vedic wisdom scriptures. They are appendages, Period. Your own azhwars chose to call them dravida Vedam since Vedas were so much forgotten at their time. 0
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Ram says:
July 16, 2010 at 4:24 pm
Beware: When you point one finger at somebody,the remaining four points at you.Mahatma Gandhi. ********************************************** Azhwars were great upasaks of Vishnu (of the trimurthy line). Now i can judge the knowledge you have gained from Prabhandham and Vainavam. **************************************************** A painful fact for Vaishnavites but true nevertheless. Another evindence of your study of Gita and Vainavam. ***************************************************** Prabandam speaks of PuraNic lore in nearly 80 % of songs. Firstly i am surprised by your arithmatic,Secondly i am at loss to understand by what you consider as Purana, whether it is limited to 18 or 108 or 1008.Or it includes Shramanic and other ones in Apabhramsa etc. Nammazhvaars rendition is considered as Sama Veda-and he is referred to as Vedam Tamizh Chaida Maaran-Now there is a vast difference from Veda and Purana,i do not understand if the verse i quoted is to be taken or your learned wisdom will prevail on the Prabhandham. ****************************************************** Your own azhwars chose to call them dravida Vedam since Vedas were so much forgotten at their time. Azhwars never categorised or named their literature it is later saints and philosophers who started equating that literature,for instance today every religious scripture is termed as Veda(Bible/Quoran). Vedas were never forgotten to my knowledge and my forefathers have brought it down to me without disconnect. ******************************************************** I donot know if you are a Tamil Speaking person so i cannot deduce your
interpretations firmly. Regards RAM 0

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Venkat says:
July 16, 2010 at 5:56 pm
Ram wrote >>>Azhwars never categorised or named their literature it is later saints and philosophers who started equating that literature,for instance today every religious scripture is termed as Veda(Bible/Quoran)>>>>> I am giving a thanian of Nada munigal who lived with Nammazhwar
f . Look at the last line. That will do it for you. And, I have another statement. Vaishnavites have gone far too away from Vedas. Yamunacharya alias ALavandaar, wrote in his book that Vaishnavism is based purely on Agamas and no more connected/ obliged to Vedas. Ramanuja, along with Sankara and Maddhwa established Vedanta focussed theisms. They never taught vedas anymore. What was passed on as Veda were remnants like a few suktams namely Purusha Suktam, Sri Suktam, Narayana Suktam, Vishnu suktam, Medavi suktam, Mantra Pushpam etc. If this small collection is what you call Vedic tradition, you alone are entitled to that expression and you can keep it as long as you want. Vedas are classically the samhita portion only. Technically , aranyakas and Brahmanas also came to be called Veda but they are not. If I take this into consideration, Ramanuja was a Vedantin, and not a Vedic scholar per se. 0
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raghu1967 says:
July 16, 2010 at 7:54 pm
Naadamuni was not an Aazhvaar and i am confident he did not live in the time of Swami NammalwarNaadamuni was a compiler of the Dravida Veda Sagaram and he is one of the three saints considered foremost in the munitraya sampradaya. Naadamuni Samvartita Yamuna Muni samvartita Raamaanuja muni samrakshita munitraya Sthaapak achaaryas. The Tradition has it that the Prabhandhams were lost for centuries though historians restrict to 100 Years.They were retrived by Madurakavi the greatest disciple of Swami Nammalwar who retrieved Tiruvawymozhi and other parts of the Prabhandhams through appearance and Revelations by the Vedam tamizh chaeida maran. It was the same prabhandham which was retrieved by the Naathamuni centuries after it went out of use and copiled it into sections and parts as it is today. FYI Vedas are not limited to 1028 hymns of the Rg Veda or its counter parts such as Yaajusham and Saaman and Atharvan Samhita,Brahmana, Aaranyaka and the Upanishad.It is whole lot of thought process that may have been irretrievably lost and those that have been passed on to us . Upanishad an appendage to vedas themself are Vedantha and so many do come afterwards.But these do not become contrary to Vedas(part of which is known to us). Now one cannot be said to be superior to other just because of time period or because one is out of use over the other or because one has resemblance to other. This pitting of one over the other always will raise counters and one has to focus debate on quality and comparability. I do not accept your firm stand on any issue you feel you need to comment,at best it can be your perception (Technically , aranyakas and Brahmanas also came to be called Veda but they are not. If I take this into consideration, Ramanuja was a Vedantin, and not a Vedic scholar per se.) My Humble advice: Better learn to listen to others and give time for others to leverage your thoughts and dont be firm on your opinions to dislodge others for no one is near the truthtruth is sublime and evasive that only enables you travel in a particular path. 0
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kedarnath says:
July 17, 2010 at 1:42 am
namste Sr Ram, you wrote @ Kedar
here is no transliteration error ~j is the nasal in the ca varga and not in the nasal in the ka varga recognized by tolkappiar and pANiNi ~ja ~na ma ya va enum mutal Aku mozhiyum ~ja ~na ma va ennum puLLi iRutiyum ~ja ~na en puLLikku innE cAriyai. 10 ~ja ~na ma va iyaiyinum ukaram ~nilaiyum. 2 ~ja ~na mat tOnRinum ya va va~ntu iyaiyinum ~ga ~ja Na ~na ma na enum puLLi munnar ~ga ~ja ~na ma ennum oRRu AkummE ka ca ~ja pa ma ya va Ezhum uriya. 26 cuTTin munnar ~ja ~na ma tOnRin mellezhuttu enpa ~ga ~ja Na ~na ma na. 20 tan mey tiri~ntu ~ga ~ja ~na Akum. 27 ka ca ta pa ~ga ~ja ~na ma Ir oRRu Akum. 15 ~ja ~na ma va ennum puLLi munnar ~ja Na ~na ma na ya ra la va zha La ennum E o enum uyir ~jakArattu illai. 40 A e o enum mU uyir ~jakArattu uriya. 31 cakAra ~jakAram iTai ~nA aNNam. 8 ~jakArai oRRiya tozhiRpeyar munnar ~jakArai mutalA LakArai IRRup up pakAramoTu ~jakAraiyum aRRE ~jA~gkark kiLa~nta vallezhuttu mikumE. 2 ~jA~gkark kiLa~nta mUnRu poruLAka ta~ntu puNar~ntu uraittal ~jApakam kURal ~jAyiRu ti~gkaL col ena varU^^um ~jAyiRu ti~gkaL aRivE ~nANE ~jAlattu varU^^um ~naTakkaiyatu kuRippin Na na en puLLi mun yAvum ~jAvum ~jemirtalum pAytalum parattal poruLa. 63 vicaimarak kiLaviyum ~jemaiyum ~namaiyum
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raghu1967 says:
July 17, 2010 at 6:44 am
@ Kedar The Question is limited to : which of these are pure dravidian. it will be interesting to know the viewpoints of the tamizh scholars on which of these are pure dravidian Now going by the original posted by you now most of the verses are discussing Syllables. They are discussing the usages and why is there a doubt in your mind whether these syllables are Tamil or Not is not understandable. Gnya,Ngha,Na,Nna,Ma,Nnna are mellinam (soft sounds)as described in Tolkaapiyam. Now cannot appropriate Syllables as of a particular language because Syllables we read is a visible representation of what people produce as sounds through Vocal chords. A language structure is a group of syllables recognised for encryption of the words. It forms a scheme of things in a particular set of languages. 0
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raghu1967 says:
July 17, 2010 at 6:53 am
Please dont mix two different books(Ashtadhyayi and tolkaapiyam)to prove a point,they are very different,one may precede other,may be of same period,it doesnt matter,the fact is they address different languages. ~ja is not recognised in Tamil scheme of things,what is in the syllable above is
a compound Gnya,so dont produce a syllable which is not in the Tamil Scheme of things. In Sanskrit the word Gnyana(Knowledge)is pronounced differently in regions..in Maharashtra it is Dnyaana(as opposed to Dhyaana),in other states it ~jyaana. I remember a Pallakad Tamil pronouncing In~jae for Ingae-Here in Tamil. 0
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pk.karthik says:
July 18, 2010 at 11:00 pm
Good work Senthil, But i agree with Ram on his intrepretations,it makes lots of sense. But one comment i did find it amusing,it stated that since agastiyar wrote agatyam implies that Tholkapiyar wrote Tholkapiyamgoing by logic than Ramar wrote Ramayan and Veda Vyasar wrote and Vedas ,Mahabharathar wrote Mahabaharatam and Bhagavad Gita was written either by Bhagavadhar or Gitar:) 1
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senthil says:
July 19, 2010 at 12:57 pm
Karthik.. this argument can be used as a good humor tholkappiar, then who wrote tholkappiam?
.. if not
Btw, i agree with some of Rams interpretation, but not with his totally exclusive view of tamil.. he assumes that everything is developed within tamil region, and by tamil language without help or influence from external entities.. Its a kind of european racism.. 0
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pk.karthik says:
July 31, 2010 at 10:33 pm
Senthil any one could have written Tholkapiam.i dont think it was necesarry to for the author to lend his name for his work.it could have been written by follower of Tholkapiar toowe dont have evidence for both. So i made the statement .He could have been an inspiration for the work too like Ram was an inspiration for the story called Ramayanam
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raghu1967 says:
July 19, 2010 at 7:12 am
@ Karthik Thanks. On the analogy you have given for most ancient works you do not have the authors name and his biography.Either they are deduced at a later date or induced by recent compilers on a particular basis. In case of Tolkaappiyam -Panampaaranaar s Sirappupaa describes this person as Tolkaappiyan.Now it is not known if he is a colleague of Tolakaappiyan or a later compiler who tried to assign the name.Many other names are also seen on the subject. Since name is only for identity debate should not restrict to the same but involve the subject matter. 0
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senthil says:
July 19, 2010 at 12:51 pm
Raghu, The tolkappian word is mentioned in the preface poem of the tolkappiam book itself..
.. I dont know if this is part of the original tolkappiam book or a later addition.. 0
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Shankar says:
April 18, 2011 at 8:48 pm
// ..//
Its panampaaranar who wrote this preface, and not tholkappian. Tholkappiam was not written by a single person as a single entity. It was written for long periods by different persons. Tirukural is work without naming any author. Later on in 10 century, the name tiruvalluvan was baptised to honor him We do not certainly know the name of author who wrote tirukkural. There is a literary tradition for tamil, where if an author is unknown then his name would be taken from the work he created. Like wise, there was no single person called tholkappian. Just to connect the literature to some author the tholkappian was given to him.. 0
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raghu1967 says:
July 19, 2010 at 1:05 pm
@ Senthil The same thing i am refering to as sirappupaayiram of panampaaranar.This was not written by tolkaappiyan or forms part of tolkaappiyam . 0
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raghu1967 says:
July 19, 2010 at 1:12 pm
but not with his totally exclusive view of tamil.. Why should one be shy of this argument when it is for Tamil,while there are no hesistancy when the same is attributed to Sanskrit.is it not prejudice developed towards one over the other. I have never stated that it is Tamil Over sanskrit , i am simply posing an argument of independance and probable primordial language structure supported by literature. See the Bias in linguistic studies,while people dont hesistate of asking for evidence when it comes to antiquity of Tamil Literature , while they readily accept oral tradition to fill the gap of antiquity in favour of SanskritThey can even discard a recording of supposedly 8th and 11th century (iraiyanar agaporul)as garbage while trying to assimilate all the dreams about the antiquity of sanskrit stream.
Again i assert that my studies is not Tamil over Sanskrit , my study is the independance in evolution of Tamil Tradition , its antiquity and primordial syllable structure,while secondarily i am able to address the Varient relation Sanskrit and Tamil from a common evolute. 1
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senthil says:
July 20, 2010 at 9:20 am
Raghu, I dont know about others.. but i dont attribute anything exclusive to sanskrit.. i am looking at general evolution of languages.. On many accounts, we come to know that sanskrit is NOT a common mans language.. its an artificial language for the learned men.. As such, sanskrit had imbibed many of the words from the prevailing prakrutham and other spoken languages of those times .. In technical terms, sanskrit is a highly structured language mainly for storing and propogating information and data.. the grammar for sanskrit had evolved over times, and as i have mentioned in this post, there were 11 schools of sanskrit grammar, before panini had written his own grammar for it.. In tamil language too, we could find a similar pattern.. the spoken tamil is largely different from the literary tamil.. i hope you would accept this.. The tamil we are using now is an anglicised version of the tamil.. many of the english grammar has been fused in to tamil grammar, and as such we find that the tamil prose we are writing today does not have the flow of the tamil that is spoken, which makes it artificial 0
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raghu1967 says:
July 20, 2010 at 9:48 am
Tolkaappiyam has roughly 1600 verses(not sentences).Roughly 16% of the verses cites instances of earlier works to tolkaappiyam.(Dr.M.Raasamaanickanaar,Tamizh mozhi-Ilakkiya varalaaru) - 96 - .
- -78 . - -34 . - -165 - -230 - -233 - -27 - -98 -200 . I Believe strongly that Sanskrit is a Varient of Tamil or its proto language developed specifically to address the Mantra and tantra texts and was never a language of mass communication. 0
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senthil says:
July 20, 2010 at 9:26 am
i have no hesitation in accepting independant origin of tamil language.. but to say that there is no connection b/w tamil and sanskrit is what i am contesting.. Why cant it be that tamil kings on those days could have been wealthy, and could have invited scholars from established schools of grammar to develop a grammar for their language? Its just a hypothetical question i am placing before.. and the problem with todays linguistics is that language is mixed with racism .. Can any one say how many communities in todays tamilnadu are the original tamil people of the sangam era?? Then why the screaming of Tamil Race or Tamil inam ? 0
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raghu1967 says:
July 20, 2010 at 9:52 am
Why cant it be that tamil kings on those days could have been wealthy, and could have invited scholars from established schools of grammar to develop a grammar for their language? This gives scope for precedence theory and dependance theory.The same sentence above can be framed for sanskrit also. Why should one think and start with Sanskrit first-is it not heavy racism.
Tamil has independant source of development and history speaks for it letus believe it as we believe for any piece of past material available for sanskrit. 0
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vedamgopal says:
July 19, 2010 at 7:54 pm
. . 2 . . . . . . . ? . 1. : 2. : 3. ; 4. : 5. ; 6. ; 7. ; 8. 2 4 9. 4 4 4 ; 10. 3 3 3 3 ; 11. 2 2 2 2 2 ; 12. ; 13. ; 14 ( 14 ) 0

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raghu1967 says:
July 19, 2010 at 9:52 pm
. ************************************************************************************************ 2 . .. ??? ************************************************************************************************ - . ************************************************************************************************ ? , 0

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vedamgopal says:
July 20, 2010 at 1:58 pm
. . . ,,,
(V.K.S)
,,, ,,,,, 6 , ,
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( )( )( ) . . . 51 51 51 . 18 0
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. . 12 18 . .
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senthil says:
July 20, 2010 at 10:50 pm
@raghu.. /** his gives scope for precedence theory and dependance theory.The same sentence above can be framed for sanskrit also. Why should one think and start with Sanskrit first-is it not heavy racism. Tamil has independant source of development and history speaks for it ***/ See.. i did not specify sanskrit in my comment.. rather, i mentioned only as Schools of Grammar.. i meant, that the concept of grammar for language
evolved slowly, and different languages could have imbibed these concepts and adapted to their language structure & needs.. In computer terms, i can cite the development of object oriented concepts, and different languages like C++, Java, C# etc adopting theses concepts in their own way.. 0
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senthil says:
July 20, 2010 at 10:54 pm
/** I Believe strongly that Sanskrit is a Varient of Tamil or its proto language developed specifically to address the Mantra and tantra texts and was never a language of mass communication. ***/ Sanskrit was NEVER a language of the masses.. Prakrutham is the peoples language.. 0
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Ram says:
July 22, 2010 at 1:20 pm
Panampaaranar is one of twelve disciples of Sage Agastya and was the author of Panampaaranar Sootiram A Grammar treatise(probably Lost)a Colleague of Tolkaapiyan. 0
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says:
July 22, 2010 at 2:54 pm
. . . ? . . . . . . . .
. . . + , . . .
. . . . . . ( ) . ! ! . . .
. . . . . . . , .
. . . . ?. 0
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., . 0 Rate This
raghu1967 says:
July 22, 2010 at 6:38 pm
@ Adhigaprasangi Very Interesting Story,I liked thoroughly. Ram 0

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Vinodh Rajan says:

August 4, 2010 at 12:11 am
Man.. Absolutely great posting !!! Kudos !!!! Would you mind if I repost it on my site with full Author Attribution and Backlink to this blog ? V 0
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senthil says:
August 4, 2010 at 7:09 am
THanks vinodh.. the contents i write on my own in this blog are NOT copyrighted.. its open content.. so you can reproduce it in your site without any hesitation.. 0
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gajanan says:
August 4, 2010 at 9:09 am
http://tilak.sulekha.com/blog/post/2007/08/bheemayanam-a-biography-of-drambedkar-in-sanskrit.htm A dispatch of the Press Trust of India (PTI) dated September 10, 1949 states that Ambedkar was among those who sponsored an amendment making Sanskrit as the official language of the Indian Union in place of Hindi. Most newspapers carried the news the next day, i.e., on September 11, 1949 (see the issue of Sambhashan Sandeshah, a Sanskrit monthly published from Delhi , June 2003: 4-6). Other dignitaries who supported Dr Ambedkars initiative included Dr B.V. Keskar, then the Deputy Minister for External Affairs and Professor Naziruddin Ahmed. The amendment dealt with Article 310 and read: 1.The official language of the Union shall be Sanskrit. 2. Notwithstanding anything contained in Clause 1 of this article, for a period of fifteen years from the commencement of this constitution, the English language shall continue to be used for the official purposes of the union for which it was being used at such commencement: provided that the President may, during the said period, by order authorise for any of the official purposes of the union the use of Sanskrit in addition to the English language . But the amendment was defeated in the Constituent Assembly due to the opposition of the ruling Congress Party and other lobbyists.If Ambedkar had succeeded, the renewed interaction between Sanskrit as the national language and speakers of other languages would have initiated a sociological process of upward and downward mobility. While rulers, pilgrim centres, and temple complexes used to be the traditional agents of such interaction, the state operated broadcasting agencies, school textbooks, and the film and music industry would have emerged as new agents facilitating that interaction. http://venetiaansell.wordpress.com/category/books/page/2/ In the above web site Extracts below in For example.. Indias modernity from the review of AN Haksar of the book Modernity of Sanskrit in the web site above. For example, while the author dwells on the exchanges between Gandhi and Ambedkar on caste and reservation, she omits any notice of Ambedkars proposal in the Constituent Assembly to make Sanskrit the official language of the Indian Union. Nor does she note the rich tribute to Sanskrit paid by Nehru, the acclaimed symbol of Indias modernity
The author here is Simone Sawhney and the reviewer AN Haksar. The review may be not appear as you click on the web site. You may have to search. Now you see the reply of Prof Romilla Thapar to Dr Yvette Rosser when she queried about Sanskrit. Here is the reference below , See page 2 & 3 in the following pdf file. http://www.infinityfoundation.com/indic_colloq/papers/paper_rosser.pdf From the above web site Page 2 , scroll and look down in the page and read. However, it is ironic to note, that though JNU offers advanced degrees in Indian history it does not offer classes in Sanskrit, even though there have all along been degrees available in both classical and modern Arabic and classical and modern Persian at JNU. It has been proposed several times in the past, certainly prior to the BJPs ascent to power, that Sanskrit be added to the available classical languages students can take at JNU, thereby facilitating the analysis of ancient texts in the study of Indian history Then in the same web site. Page 3 , right at the start. When I questioned Romila Thapar5, a well know historian from JNU, about this issue during July 2000, she explained that if students want to learn Sanskrit, there are so many Maths and Piths around where they can go.6 She added that most of the regional colleges have some kind of Sanskrit program. However, the fact remains that the primary tool to study ancient India, namely the Sanskrit language, has not, in all these years, been available to students attending JNU. At Indias premier academic institutionfamous for its cutting edge Social Science excellence students are not offered courses in Sanskrit, the root language of Indian culture. And significantly, implementing the study of this quintessential part of Hindu tradition was time and again vehemently opposed by the faculty. BR Ambedkar , who rose like a phoenix from the ashes, did have a genuine greivance against the upper caste for treating his communiity badly and denying them a lot of good things. But one must at the same time appreciate BRAs great gesture in 1949 to make Sanskrit a national language. The reply of Prof Romila Thapar to Yvette Rosser that Sanskrit is available in Mutts and Piths and they can go there. She then says that regional colleges have some Sanskrit program. The reply looks that the study of Sanskrit should not come to the mainstream. Now BRA did not want Sankrit to remain in the realm of Mutts and Pitts. He wanted to bring Sanskrit into the realm intellectual and educational discourse and not just remain in religious discourse. This was a remarkable idea for man denied to learn Sanskrit when he was young. Readers should just compare the reply of Romila Thapar to Yvetter Rosser and BRAs exemplary effort. In 1949, there were eminent personalities who could recite verses in Sanskrit. None of these personalities supported BRA in his effort. The Bill was never passed. 61 yrs have passed. If the bill had been passed , probably , there would
have been great insights given to Sanskrit language in the portals of Indias leading universities. Another article by Prof Ed Bryant http://www.indiawest.com/readmore.aspx?id=953&Sid=8 ( this article also you may have to search in the above site) Edwin Bryant, an associate professor of religion at Rutgers University and the author of two books on the Aryan invasion, went to the heart of either argument in his presentation of the Intellectual History of the Debate. The issue was one of the most hotly contested debates throughout the 1990s. The debate has died down in Western academic circles somewhat recently, not because it has necessarily been resolved decisively in the minds of everyone, but in part because scholars became exhausted with the polemical and emotional tenor of the discussion and the missionary zeal which the opposing views were pursued, he stated. To determine the origin and culture of the earliest inhabitants, the philological method was applied to Sanskrit text. We must recall that the equation of language with race was rarely brought into question until relatively recently, he pointed out. Most of the arguments raised by the detractors of the Indo-Aryan migration theory rely on archeological evidence partly due to the fact that there has been so little opportunity available for the study of historical linguistics in India, Bryant noted. In India, there are only three institutions devoted to the study of Indo-European linguistics, and this whole issue is a linguistic issue, and its a shame (there are not more institutions), because Indians with their knowledge of Vedic have a head start in this whole field, Bryant contended. It would be nice if at least that point was somehow stressed in conferences such as this, that somehow encouragement be given to Indian academic institutions to establish departments of historical linguistics. Now to start department historical linguistics as said by Prof E Bryant, one must have Universities with Sanskrit depts, which is not there and he admits that Indians have head start in Vedas as everyone agrees that Sanskrit is the language of the Vedas. He also says that it is a shame that there are only three institutes devoted to study of Indo-European languages. Prof Ed Bryant is neutral when it comes to the AIT or OIT theory. (Genetics has favoured the OIT Theory. not in the text , but added as biological evidences are far more convincing than linguistics) The lament of Prof Bryant now , was the vision of Dr Ambedkar. So long, they give a communal color to the study of Sanskrit in India, it would be difficult to transfer the study of Sanskirt from relgious discourse to a rigorous intellectual tour de force. The bill of BRA should have been passed. By now (61 yrs) , we would have many Indians in India counteracting to the barbs of dismal interpretations of Sanskrit both in India and the West. 0
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Indian says:
November 10, 2010 at 1:19 pm
i hav also noted enourmous number of pure sanskrit words in Tamiljust watch the tamil movies or listen to songs.There are soooo many..Its an irony that these peopel are playing sanskrit/Hindi/North Indian hatred politics in that stateThier lanaguge is also clearly connectd with sanskrit just like other south Indian ones like Kannada,Malayalam,Telugu etc. For example, they use some sanskrit words like sinthikka [Chintha] etc..But the actual Tamil word for this is Yojne pannikka [I think so].But there are other words which even they dont know how to translate into Tamilegsuryan,chandran,bhakthi etcTamil is also derived fro sanskrit , i feel 0
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senthil says:
@Indian, Its not that tamil is derived from sanskrit.. sanskrit is NOT a peoples language.. but language of learned. its the prakrutham which is the spoken language, and which formed the base for sanskrit.. We need to understand the fact that the evolution of grammar is NOT confined to any single language.. In my opinion, there were schools of grammer on those days, and the grammatical concepts were imbibed and customised by many different languages, including tamil.. Tamil might have its independant origin.. but as human civilization progressed, it imbibed so many words from prakrutham.. Even the word yojanai is a prakrutha word.. the tamil equivalent for chintha is Ennam.. 0
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Achyuthan Sundarrajan says:

December 6, 2010 at 12:28 am
This comment is regarding your Tholkappiar post. I am wonderstruck as to how keenly youve involved yourself in such research.
Its almost the same thing that ive been advocating for years, although i didnt know those details about tholkaappiyar. Im a Brahmin, and Im proficient in Tamil. This gives me dual advantage of being able to understand both Tamil and Sanskrit. So, i have been able to jot down more than 1000 words which have similar sound-pronunciation-usage in Sanskrit and Tamil. So it would not be farfetched to say both the languages had almost a single primitive mother. While Tamil excused the sounds [dhvanis ], sanskrit gave importance to it. Thats why we have only 247 characters in Tamil, but a hell lot more in Sanskrit. My grandparents [who were Sanskrit Pandits] used to say Tamil is a little deficit in characters [For example, I'm an engineering student and i face two competitive exams this year- CAT & GATE. But both these are spelt in the same way in tamil]. No two languages can have such absolute relationship unless one is derived from the other. But though the dialects may sound similar, the scriptures are totally unrelated between the two. This leads to the only possible solution. Both tamil and sanskrit evolved from a single source [which can roughly be decimated as prakrutha]. So, if tamil is as old as they say [ ], then it is clear that sanskrit is also that old. Loved your post. Would like to have a little deeper conversation on these topics.:) 0
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senthil says:
December 6, 2010 at 11:44 pm
Thanks achyuthan sir.. your comment is well compiled and represented.. First of all, i am asking why we should be obsessed with which one is older? It is such a deviated attitude that led to dravidian and aryan racism.. i am looking for a complete different perspective.. So i come to an important question.. By the name tamil, are we referring to the scripts, or the spoken language? Or which one do we consider as language first of all? And which one came first? Is it script or spoken language? Its plain sensible, that the spoken language shud have first come. If so, can we ever find out the age of a spoken language? Never.. So there is no point in evaluating age of a language.. if we look carefully, we are actually evaluating age of scripts.. So coming to language scripts, now we have the question.. whether tamil scripts came first or sanskrit or whether tamil came from sanskrit or both developed parallely? It opens to lot of discussion.. I heard that during ramayana days, there were more than 18 languages spoken in ayodhya, as my friend says as mentioned in valmiki ramayana.. he was mentioning instances where hanuman was confused on which language he has to speak to sita in ashoka vanam in lanka.. Will that give
us any new perspective? My take is that there are many spoken languages existing, and the sanskrit script and grammar might have been applied to these different languages.. Tamil cud have a different script, but from what we know, the first known grammar was written by a brahmin sage.. my view is that tamil cud have its own scriptural development, but later, had benefitted from development of language grammar for sanskrit.. 0
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bala says:
Hi ALL, TAMIL is THE most natural (iyal-moi) of all languages the sound of AMMA , APPA, MAMA comes out by opening and closing the mouth and AMMA is the root word for mother in all languages in the world. Scientific research confirms the same http://meenakshisblog.wordpress.com/2011/06/15/kal-thondrimann-thondraa%E2%80%A6/ And still want to know how old is TAMIL language Pavanar says its 500,000 years old, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devaneya_Pavanar but i believe its much olderbecause scientifically all living creatures having mouth can utter AMMA . so Its natural to say TAMIL is the language of the evolution.. So nothing to be proud of, because we all are TAMILS. even though we speak different dialect, languages, slangsthe root comes from TAMIL (Natural language) yaathum oore yaavarum kelir 0
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Aditya says:
@bala Bro I refute your claims You said TAMIL is THE most natural (iyal-moi) of all languages the sound of AMMA , APPA, MAMA comes
out by opening and closing the mouth and AMMA is the root word for mother in all languages in the world. Scientific research confirms the same http://meenakshisblog.wordpress.com/2011/06/15/kalthondri-mann-thondraa%E2%80%A6/ Did you read the article? it Says that both Aryan and Dravidians are one? And where in that article was it claimed that tamil is the most Natural Language. You are giving wrong bibliographies which shows your ignorance. As a matter of fact, Humans learned speaking from animals. And babies can utter only basic words like aa,baa,maa,paa,raa,gaa,daa.. And it doest mean they speak Tamil.It just means Tamil adopted those words. And as you said it is the root word for all languages There have been many languages before tamil and there is every possibility that any other language would have used it earlier. For. Eg. in Sanskrit mother is Amba and father is pita .And again here these are basic words that are uttered by babies. An serious insight to the development of the language in Humans can solve this. Actually the babies try to imitate their parents, but they can utter only basic words with one or two syllables. >>And still want to know how old is TAMIL language Pavanar says its 500,000 years old, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devaneya_Pavanar but i believe its much olderbecause scientifically all living creatures having mouth can utter AMMA . so Its natural to say TAMIL is the language of the evolution.. So nothing to be proud of, because we all are TAMILS. even though we speak different dialect, languages, slangsthe root comes from TAMIL (Natural language) << Wikipedia is the most un reliable sources on the internet because any damn person with an internet connection can edit articles. You have to be more professional in your approach by giving links to thesis and research papers and not wikipedia or online encyclopedias .
And that Pavanar is not an archaeologist or a linguist, he is just a Tamil fanboy. As a matter of fact he has a sanckrit word in his name i.e DEVA. Just a couple of words and you calim Tamil as the oldest? GIVE ME PROOFS THAT TAMIL IS OLDER THAN 300 Bc. DON'T HAVE FALSE EGO BY CLAIMING TAMIL AS THE OLDEST LANGUAGE. yaathum oore yaavarum kelir THAT'S A RIP OFF FROM Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam WHICH WAS GIVEN IN THE VEDAS. TO BE MORE SPECIFIC FROM THE Mahopanishad VI.71-73. CLAIMING TAMIL AS THE FIRST LANGUAGE IS RIDICULOUS . KUMARI KANDAM HAS BEEN PROVED A MYTH BUT DWRAKA ,RAM SETHU AND KURUKSHETRA ,SARASWATHI RIVER MENTIONED IN SANSKRIT ARE REAL PLACES. 0
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ARJEN says:
i was born in the uk to indian parents, and i have a deep interest in all things indian. My research has led to me to believe that the british created such destruction of not only the land and the people, but they intentionally tried to separate the north and the south. Throughout my studies it has show that their was no divide between north and south, and in genetics it also shows a population that has been intact for at least 15,000years with no aryan invasions taking place. I appreciate reading your comments as it gives me more indication and answers, that in fact for india to succeed we indians NEED TO REALISE THE TRUTH, and erase the damage the british tried to create. We need to stop indians from the north and the south attacking each other as if they are two different people, they are not. I am doing a video that binds the indian people together, through genetics, through language through history, through culture, through food, through faith, through language. My intention is to create a identity that links indians to DHARMA. Dharma is the essense in which all indian faith, culture, and traditions exist. Dharma is found within hinduism, sikhism, buddism and jainism, ..if the islamists bind each other through the word of allah, and the
christians through jesus, and both the religons attack and have used and promtoed slavery and conversions against hindus, buddist, sikhs and jains..then we ARE THE FOLLOWERS OF DHARMAand under dharma we must unite india. Do you think what i say has any merit to it.???? 1
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senthil says:
Actually the north south divide is only at political level.. at the ground level, people are accomodative and respective to each other.. in tamilnadu, there are so much biharis working as labourers , and many marwaris doing business.. Similarly there are many tamil people living in orissa, delhi and other areas, and did not face any issue.. The people at rural areas are very much still the dharmic people.. It is the educated , who denounce dharma.. 0
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ARJEN says:
i have just travelled back from india and i was shocked to see how christians are paying people to covert.i was shocked to see how muslims that lived in india are openly staging hatred against the dharmic people, sikh, buddist, jain and hindu, trying to convert the people into their faith. If we want to return our land to our children then we must unite under dharma. The dharmic republic of india. 0
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Ramanan says:
March 25, 2011 at 6:32 am
Great analysis by Shri Senthil.. In fact any serious neutral scholar of Tamil and Sanskrit would appreciate the fact that there are more similarities between these two than say Latin and Sanskrit. Only with an ulterior motive do the indologists put Tamil and Sanskrit in two different families. Also those who have pathological hatred towards Sanskrit find these two languages as somehow inimical to each other. I do feel that both these languages originated from the
South. As Senthil says they are independent. In reading Tamil literature, I dont even one inimical word written against so called Aryan language. Ram, your analysis is welcome, but so far the meanings you have given are round about and even far fetched. Some Tamil scholars do mental gymnastics to somehow show that Tamil was never influenced by Sanskrit. We need to just adopt a neutral attitude otherwise truth will become a casualty. Ramanan 0
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senthil says:
March 29, 2011 at 7:57 am
Thanks a lot ramanan.. the indo languages are far different from european ones.. yet europeans group them as indo-european languages, because their history is entirely based on biblical belief that all humans came from single parent, and hence languages.. if we could dislodge that fundamental fault, then everything would be set right.. 0
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C_o_n_t_r_a_r_i_a_n says:
April 11, 2011 at 5:09 pm
Senthil this is what you hve written: am reproducing the preface of this book.. After that, you hve reproduced the poem. The preface is called in Tamil prosody PAAYIRAM or ANITHURAI The paayriram is not written by the author. It is generally written by some one close to the author. It is done only when the poem is to be recited before a group of eminent poets. Tamil Sangam, as you know, was nothing but a court of poets, in which the King presided over and the eminent poets of the day were seated prominently. Anyone who wanted his poems to be heard, or to be recognized by this royal comity of poets, could come on any day and recite his work in front of the comity. Then, his book would be discussed by the comity, including the King, if he was poetrysaavy, and if good, the poets recommended to the King to reward the author. Such episodes are called in Tamil Arangetrams (There were many Pandian kings who were eminent Tamil poets whose contributes dazzled Puranaanooru, for e.g Pandian Nedunchezhian)
Usually, the author himself came to the court for arangetram. But sometimes it so happened that he died w/o arangetram; and the concerned people, mostly his discpilies or students who were close to him, felt the need to make the arangetram of their masters book. Whoever that may be, at the time of arangetram, a paayiram was mandatory as it gives a broad conspectus of the book to be on arangetram. The paayiram you have reproduced was not written by Tolkpaappiyar at all. )))) Tolkaappiyar, who was from Quilon of today Kerala where he ran his gurukul, died and the book of grammar, his magnum opus, would have passed into obscurity. But the first student in the gurukul by name Panampaaranaar, felt the need to bring the book to Madurai for aragnetram before the court of Pandian. And it was he who wrote the paayiram. It is the sacred duty of every student to honor his master. (Such honour was also done by Madurakavi for his master Nammaazhavaar in Tamil sangam) At the time, the kings had rajagurus. Tamil kings had such gurus also, but the gurus were also eminent literatures or men of letters. Because one of the duties of the court was to approve books for mass reading. The rajagurus were always Brahmins. Because at the time of Pandians, the Vedic Brahmins had already entered TN and brought the vedic way of life along with Sanskirt. So, such rajagurus were scholars both in Tamil and Sanskrit. The athangottaasan mentioned in the paayiram, was the rajaguru who was seated next to Pandian when Panampaaranaar came, or who he knew before he came. The whole kingdom knew that all books should be approved by this athangottaasaan first, and it was he who had to recommend the book to the King before it finally was allowed to be circulated among the people. Panampaaranaar knew the athangottaasaan was an eminent scholar of Tamil and Sanskrit. It was the general habit with all to first praise the king and then the rajaguru, which Panampaaranaar is doing in the paayiram. 0
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senthil says:
April 13, 2011 at 11:25 am
Good story.. but there is no logic in it.. Please give proof that panamparanaar wrote the payiram? Even if we assume panamparanar wrote the payiram, see the details given in
this..
.. it was clearly mentioned that it is tholkappiyar who wrote the grammar.. /** Tolkaappiyar, who was from Quilon of today Kerala where he ran his gurukul, died and the book of grammar **/ Could you give reference/proof to your statement? 0
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April 14, 2011 at 4:09 pm
Please give proof that panamparanaar wrote the payiram? Senthil, Proof is in the commentaries on the books by ancient Tamil scholars. Not a single soul has ever written anywhere that the paayiram was authored by Tolkaappiyar himself. I am writing here everything based on my reading of writings of ancient Tamils. I dont bother, like you, what the so called anti brahmins say. Tolkappiyam was approved in the first Tamil sangam which was in kapadapuram, which later on was destroyed in a tsunami, aazhippiralayam. This kapadapuram was beyond Kanyakumari. Quilon was very much in Tamil speaking country; and in ancient times, there was no malayalam. Only Tamil and all people there were called Tamils only. Tolkappiyar was a native of Quilon. For proof, you can read History of Tamil literature, an English book, authored by Prof R P Sethuppillai, formerly HOD of Tamil Department Madras University. He is a famous Tamil scholar. Not knowing about Panampaarnar is a lamentable ignorance on your part. Never say it was Tolkappiyar who wrote the paayiram. Take any book from Tamil library giving commentary on Tolkappiyam. You need not take Tolkappiya Poonga by Muka because you dont like the fellow. But you can take any other scholar, the more ancient the more ideal.
Every one will begin with the statement when they begin to give meaning of the paayiram, thus, Panampaaranaar says. If you go further to know who this Panampaaranar is, you will find that he was the first or an important disciple of Tolkappiyar. The book was not brought to Tamil sangam by Tolkappiyar. But by Panamparanar after his masters death. It was customary to introduce the book to the poets for which he wrote the introduction. Proofs are available aplenty and all that you need is to take any book to read. Dont make a laughing stock of yourself saying you dont know panamparanaar. Read first. 0
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April 14, 2011 at 4:26 pm
.. Yes, Panampaaranaar here describes his master to the Sangam authorities or the poets in chair, in particular, the Master of Ceremonies, the formidable Brahmin Athangottaasan. Panampaaranar in the above lines says that his master Tolkpaappiyar had not written the grammar casually, but only after deep and erudite research into the extant (= available then) grammar books on Tamil herself, plus the so-called Ainthiram, which was a grammar book on the Northern language, the vadamozhi. The ancient commentarors have explained what this ainthiram is. Just read them to know more. The disciple clearly brings out the glory and awsome profile of his master and then, goes to say why he brought the book here, by using fulsome praise on the formidable brahmin (kaakkkai pidithal) and also, the pandiyan. We may not scowl at this habit of praising because it was so common at the time to praise the king and his guru and ministers exaggeratingly., which Panampaaranaar does here. But the Sangam poets were not idiots to approve the book w/o reading. They ignore the paayiram and went into the book and approved.
Approval of Sangam was inevitable. Because it was royal approval. W/0 that, any book would be tossed into oblivion, which panampaaranaar did not want to face for his masters magnum opus. If Panampaaranaar had not done this, today, Tolkpaappiyam would have been unknown; and in its place, another book on grammar authoried by some one else, would have been approved, talked about, and in which, you would have tried to search for some element to uphold the greatness of Brahmins. Tamil grammars were indeed written after Tolkappiyar. by Jains and Buddhiists also. There are some Tamil scholars who disagree with the view that this Athangottasan referred to by Panamparanar was not a Brahmin and the naan maarai which the athangottasan mastered, was not the Vedas, but some four extant divine books in Tamils. For this, you need Kazhaka Tamil Varalaaru by Kaa.Su.Pillai. For my part, I dont think so coz in ancient times, learning was denied to all other people except Brahmins, so this Athangottasaan could only be a Brahmin. All that is required in your part is some solitary hours in a good library of Tamil ancient books. Not possible for u as u, I surmise, are out of India. 0
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Shankar says:
April 18, 2011 at 11:00 pm
A distortion bended to suit your arguments. Kathai is a pure tamil word Tamil words have adjacent pronunciation for things that are closely related.. Kathai tell a story, kathaiththal to talk ( Eelam tamils still use kathaithal instead of pesu ) , kaththal to shout, Katharal to scream, Kaathai sub stories, kathi act of speak ( Kathi kalanguthal unable to speak). Could you possibly infer such closely related things in sanskrit to have adjacent pronunciations? Kappiam is a perfect tamil word. Havent you read in schools that Ancient tamil literates were classified in to four types. Munaivan, Arivan, Pulavan and Kappian. Kappiam is the collection of discrete entities of literature to be organised as one. Aimperum kappiam and Aimkurumkappiam is the collection of discrete literature to form an organised literary work. It is derived from the word kappu which
means to bind or to protect or put together. The word kalai is derived from root word of to learn. not from sanskrit kala May be sanskrit could have loaned it from tamil. Kalaignan is a derivative word from it. And manithan comes from the word maanudan manam+udaiyan.. Living being having mind.. Man in tamil would mean to control a place, from which manam mind ( Controlling the body) is derived Mannan comes from this word too, person who controls a country.. Manai, meaning house, also a derivative. Athigaaram is word which constitutes from +. which means role model, index, superior. Athigaari is a derivative word from that Here means to lead, or to dominate or to precede. Similar derivatives are, ,,,,, , Another such derivative root word is .. in which para means to spread. From which ( present everywhere ) comes in. Like wise + which transforms to which indicates ones who knows vast knowledge Quite linked to sanskrit brahmanan. Also other derivatives of such root are ( prostitute) , , (sea man). Also naan marai doesnt mean only vedas.. , , , can be naangu maraigal. And regarding ainthiram, did you ever know about ainthiram written by maamuni mayan? Why dont you refer to those instead of aindira schools? And for your information, sanskrit means well reformed or put together. From which was it reformed? Prakriti, and to some extent, dravidian languages as well. The oldest writings in India discovered are ashokan tablets, which was written in prakritam. Sanskrit was written down during some 9 or 10 century, until then orally transferred. Anything orally transmitted could undergo changes adapting to the local bodies, possibility is that it could have loaned some dravidian words as well. And I would like you the sanskrit scholar to find the etymology of the word pooja in sanskrit. I could give them in tamil.. + poosai.. which means offerings with flowers. the same like, + land or something which offers good. + land or something which offers bad Even panini is dated roughly to be in 4 th century BC. But tamil inscriptions goes back further.. http://www.hindu.com/2004/05/26/stories/2004052602871200.htm And for the record, about 55% of all inscriptions excavated by archeological survey of India, about 55 thousand inscriptions so far is tamil. And another 33 thousand inscriptions are kannada which shared the same genealogy with tamil. Its not like Agastiya came and invented tamil. Tamil is language which formed
with evolutionary method. For which words could trace back their etymology. 1
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hildaraja says:
April 25, 2011 at 5:08 pm
@shankar, Why cant it be like this? kathaithal came from the word kathai.. and kathai came from the word Katha.. kathal and katharal are different.. I am not a tamil scholar.. probably i will wait for other eminent persons to comment here.. I will respond after making some study.. 0
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shankar says:
April 26, 2011 at 1:26 am
//Why cant it be like this? kathaithal came from the word kathai.. and kathai came from the word Katha.. kathal and katharal are different..// Kathai, Kaathai, Kathaithal, Kaththal, Katharal ( Tell story, sub story, speak, shout, scream) are forms of expressions that share a same root word. How do you say kaththal and katharal are different? Its just the same root word. In sanskrit the word aakhyayikha also means story, the word bhauma too seems to have meaning story despite having other meanings like earth, grain, corn, mars etc, etc. Why should sanskrit have lot of peculiarities in mentioning a meaning of a word? Also for example take the word kaama, the word for lust. This you might argue is taken from sanskrit to tamil. But if you would refer sanskrit dictionary for the word Lust, you would get lot of words mada also mentioning lust. Apart from these there are lot words denoting lust. Also Kamadhenu has nothing related with lust, and is referred to a godess cow which is more revered. Why different?
But in tamil, kamam refers only to lust.. There is no other meanings for the word kamam. In tamil the word KA means to do something. One possible inference could be it would have naturally evolved in ancient tribal and clan kind of situations. Kaathal -to love, Kaamam -to lust, Kavar to attract, Kalavu to kidnap, Kaval to protect, kaliyanam to marry, All relates to love, elopment, and marriage of a man and his love..Its just naturally evolved and has its etymology Why do you always take the other way around? From sanskrit to tamil? I have given you the flow of words with the same roots. Please give me such derivations of words from a single root in sanskrit regarding katha, and we would have a positive debate with you 0
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senthil says:
April 27, 2011 at 7:44 am
@shankar, how do you say Kathai is a tamil root word? it cannot be splitted like what you have done for + .. 0
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shankar says:
April 27, 2011 at 3:48 pm
I see you pointing out the second word +, instead of +, for asking such expression of kathai. I doubt you would have intentionally done that to hide the dubious nature of sanskrit word pooja, and to avoid explanation from your part further. Never mind, I am just trying to be hypocritical. Coming back to discussion, Where did I say kathai itself is a root word? It might or might not be one, But I have carefully typed to avoid any wrong notions. I just said its a pure tamil word, not a root word. Still I have to approach lots of scholars to get a consensus on a root word.
But I would give my opinion and findings based on my reading of the language. Kathi is a word to denote the position, or activity of oneself. would mean that he lost his expression or he is right now inactive. will denote that a persons fate is sealed. Here it expresses the position or situation or a expression of that person. Kaalakkathi would mean that a person attained the position of the end of his life, which would be he is dead. is a tamil proverb still in use at least in villages. Here kathi means to express the position or expression of the subject. Also in science, kathi is used to express the position or activeness of a particular thing or object. Example, , would mean the position of air before and after the change in velocity. I suppose that kathi would be most likely the root word of such expressions. Though a unproved opinion, kathai would have been +=. is a word to denote, put that, place that, lay that, keep that etc.. Normally kathai would have been putting the expression or ones position as a story. 0
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Shanmugham says:
June 6, 2011 at 9:00 pm
Nice argument.. I hope a healthy debate is continued 0

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senthil says:
June 10, 2011 at 9:51 am
both and are samskritha words.. just look at how both the words are pronounced.. 0
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Panaiyadi Chozhan says:

June 8, 2011 at 7:14 pm
Derivation of kathai: Or (noise) > Orai (make noise ) > Urai (create noise, speak) > karai (make
noise, cry(English)) > kathai (make noise, speak) > kathai (noun speaking, story) Other related words: kaththu make noise, shout. 0
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June 8, 2011 at 7:39 pm
Other related words include: aRai speak, say; kari call; 0

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June 8, 2011 at 7:53 pm
kurai speak, bark; kORu ask, request; kOOtRu saying; Irai make noise; 0
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June 9, 2011 at 12:01 pm
Marai: Ora (stay together) > moRa ( relation; Note: ora-mora stay related, follow social customs, (colloq.) ) > muRai (accepted as established pattern, method, justified according to rules of ethics) > maRai ( books of ethics, sacred books). Thus, maRai does not mean hidden. The word maRai could not have been invented just to refer to the Vedas. Books of ethics must have existed in Tamil long before Tamils were subjected to the influence of Sanskrit. [ Also: Or (noise) ---> Ur (noise) --> Uri ( break, peel) --> Muri (break, terminate) --> mari (prevent, block ; vazhi mari - block the way, ) --> marai ( block, hide, disappear, hidden). ] Veda: O (sound) > Odhu (sing, chant) > Vedhu (chant) > Bethu (speak in a way difficult to follow) - > petththu ( speak incoherently). Thus, vedham a collection of chantings, scripture.
Other related words: uththi intuition, technique; puththi intelligence; viththai technique; uyiththu infer using rules, probe; 0
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June 9, 2011 at 12:45 pm
senthil says on April 10, 2011 at 9:48 pm: there is no such thing called dravidam language.. common people spoke prakrutham, which vary from region to region.. whereas samskritam were used by learned men, which has standards.. If so, was Tamil derived from prakrutham (Prakrit?)? since Tamil was spoken by common man. Since learned people used Sankrit, I suppose you mean those who spoke Tamil only were not considered learned. Please correct me if I am wrong. 0
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senthil says:
June 10, 2011 at 9:54 am
I did not say tamil is derived from sanskrit.. you need to understand the concept of language to understand my point.. Pls tell me which one came first? Spoken Language or written language? 0
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June 9, 2011 at 12:48 pm
senthil says on July 15, 2010 at 8:43 pm: (1)The very purpose of this post is to establish the fact that brahmins had contributed much to tamil, and hence the tamil cannot a Dravidian language.. (2)Please remember, . tamil is different from sanskrit and is a distinct language.. (3)My view is that tamil and sanskrit had lot of mutual influences, and to see it from exclusive view is flawed.. [End of quote] From (1): It is not clear how Tamil ceases to be a Dravidian language if
Brahmins have made contributions to it. Does it become a derived a language then? (Also, it is not clear who you call as Brahmins. The ancestors of the present day Brahmins are hard to characterise.) From (2): You say Tamil is not a Dravidian language, and yet different from Sankrit. If Tamil is not derived from Sankrit, are you saying, Tamil belongs to say the Munda language family? From (3): If Tamil is a derived language (from Sankrit), what kind of influence of it over Sanskrit we are talking about? Given that Tamil is not a Dravidian language, and say it belongs to the Munda family, then what are its exclusive influences on Sankrit? Eitherway, was there any way Tamil had influenced Sankrit? 0
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senthil says:
June 10, 2011 at 4:07 pm
You need to look at where the dravida desam exists.. the chera, chola, pandya, and thondai dhesam are distinct .. the dravida dhesam exists above the thondai dhesam.. so it is wrong to classify tamil as dravidian language there is no such thing called dravidian languages.. it is a white mans classification based on their Aryan Invasion Theory.. Next, i brought in the fact that tamil grammar was written by a brahmin to expose the racism that is exhibited behind the linguism.. And i have given enough example of usage of prakrutha words (vadasol), in tamil, and also the fact that it is allowed in tholkappiam itself.. Grammar is only for written language, and spoken language has no such rules in eastern culture.. we have to understand that first.. 0
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shankar says:
June 10, 2011 at 6:00 pm
//so it is wrong to classify tamil as dravidian language there is no such thing called dravidian languages..// Kannada and tamil have the same substratum in speech. Replace pa with hoo, and many words in tamil are the same in kannada.. Example poo, is hoo in kannada.. Both share same proto language and are closely knitted. Malayalam is a derivative of tamil. Tulu is
closer to tamil than kannada, says one of my kannada friend who is very knowledgeable in kannada literature. Telugu is more similiar in grammar and lot of words are similar with other dravidian languages than hindi or sanskrit. Why are there two different branches of language groups with languages in one group sharing a common substratum and a lot of common words, and more in contrast to languages in other group? If they are not two language groups then what will you call them? For your information almost 55% of inscriptions excavated by Archeological Society of India is tamil, and another close to 30% are kannada. The oldest sanskrit writing were found by 1 AD or so, Sanskrit written in Devanagiri originated by some 9 century AD. But Adichanallur sites excavation have revealed Tamil inscriptions close to 1400 AD or so. Now say why should we conclude tamil was derived from sanskrit, and sanskrit gave written structure and grammar to tamil? Why is it always sanskrit getting more prominence even though it is a dead language in spoken terms? 0
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June 9, 2011 at 3:14 pm
Poosai: Aasu (dirt) > poosu(apply dirt such as mud) > poosai. Also, Aasu (dirt) > Maasu (dirt) Incidentlly, Aasu(dirt) > ash (English dirt, powder). 0
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senthil says:
June 27, 2011 at 11:49 pm
regarding the word poosai, pls answer me this question.. In sanskrit, the letter sa exists.. but in tamil, the letter ja doesnt exist.. If the word poosai had gone from tamil to sanskrit, then sanskrit should have no problem in pronouning as it is.. on the other case, if the word has gone from sanskrit to tamil, tamil has no ja and hence it uses the sa and hence the word pooja to poosai..
Hope, i am making sense here.. 0

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Shankar says:
June 28, 2011 at 2:51 pm
Give the etymology of the word pooja in sanskrit and then talk about the rest. Have you heard of the greek word Ambrosia? It is the ancient greek word to refer to the drink that brings immortality. Sounds familiar? Its the same amirtha in sanskrit So can we say sanskrit borrowed words from greek? If they would have borrowed the word, sanskrit has all the letters to pronounce Ambrosia Then why did they changed it to amirtha? Now let me compile some of the common words in both greek and sanskrit. Sanskrit Greek-English: pitar piter father matar- mater -mother janu -gonu -knee daru -doru -tree ekas -os -one duva duo -two trayas tries three catarvas- tettares -four panca pente five sat- hex- six sapta hepta -seven (latin word is septem) asta- okto -eight nava- enne nine ( Interestingly Latin has novem as nine) dasa deka- tem satam-hekaton -hundred(Latin is centum) Now lets see the similiarity between sanskrit and Iranian words. Yajna Yasna hotar- Zaotr -priest Mitra Mithra divine power Arya Airya Noble man Duhitr dugdar Daughter I think you cant give etymology for most of the words in sanskrit. If you take a word in sanskrit it have lots of words to refer to them with different pronunciations. But most of them have no etymology. Those are words picked up from local languages by
people who framed sanskrit. After all sanskrit is just a language reformed or put together There is nothing wrong in accepting sanskirt borrowed from other languages. You yourself admit that sanskrit has borrowed from parkrit, but adamant enough to claim that it had not borrowed from any other language other than prakrit. 0
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June 9, 2011 at 5:33 pm
Ramanan says: March 25, 2011 at 6:32 am I do feel that both these languages [Tamil and Sanskrit] originated from the South. As Senthil says they are independent. Some Tamil scholars do mental gymnastics to somehow show that Tamil was never influenced by Sanskrit. We need to just adopt a neutral attitude otherwise truth will become a casualty. If both these languages originated in South, where in South? Kerala, Karnataka, or Andhra Pradesh? If both originated from the same place (same people?), what does it mean to say Sanskrit influenced Tamil? Does it mean for example, the people who were involved in this would create a few words first, call it Sanskrit, and then modify them later to call it Tamil? Even so, if Sanskrit influenced Tamil, how come Tamil did not influence Sanskrit? 0
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senthil says:
June 10, 2011 at 8:18 pm
@shankar, the spoken kannada is similar to tamil, whereas the scripts are different.. so as telugu.. Malayalam is called kodunthamil.. /** Why is it always sanskrit getting more prominence even though it is a dead language in spoken terms? **/ We need to change the perspectives of languages.. Sanskrit is NOT a spoken language.. it is an artificial language for writing down.. the spoken language is called prakrutham ie, unrefined..
When we say vadasol it isually refers the prakrutham spoken north of tamil region.. prakrutham has no grammar nor prakrutham is a common language.. it differs from region to region, but in some way united.. So its meaningless to say sanskrit is a dead language.. bcoz it was never meant for speaking.. In south india, grantham is used to write down vedas and other sanskrit texts.. i have seen many grantha olai chuvadis in tamilnadu.. 0
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Bala Murugan says:

June 11, 2011 at 2:42 pm
sanskrit is a dead language.but,it is a soul (basic) of north indian languages like hindi,marathi,ariyanvi. etc. We observe that devanagari is used for writting hindi.devanagari script is sanskrits writing system(script) sanskrit has many importance in language history. 0
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Singpore Saravana says:

June 21, 2011 at 1:59 pm
I a new to this blog..wel it is iterestingi need some light hereI thoght Tamil is 3000 years old as people sayas a Thamizhan, i am proud..butoften , year by year, i am larning that many words are extension of Hindi words..like ananth ( anantham )..santhosh ( santhosam ) Megh ( megham ) bu there are directly adopted words like Nidhi,gadhi etc so i am confused whih came first..but the etensin sggests it is hndi firstif so, there is adent in pride.. similarly, when it comes to hnduism & Tamil ( a recet artice by Senthil (raja) ), Tamilians embraced hinduism after the influence of north indian empires or by the kingdms influnced by themexample..eashwar00easwaran,preageeshwar, pragadeeswaran temle, tanjore ..so even rajaraja sozhan, nmed teh temple after pragaddeshwar. & the point is, when Tamil emrged as a language, we were religionless..right? throw some light please. 0
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senthil says:
June 21, 2011 at 8:50 pm
Saravana.. there is no such thing called Hinduism. the basis of our bharatheeya society is dharma, where different duties and cultures existed for different communities.. the british converted just the brahminical culture in to hinduism.. Today we are in an identity crisis.. Just look at the social structure of all tamil dhesams.. chera, chola, pandya and thondai dhesams.. they all have same setup.. brahmins, vellalas, kings, chettiyars, etc etc.. So there is no question of tamils adopting hinduism.. there is no separate tamil race.. the people in tamil region spoke tamil, but had the dharma as its basis.. 0
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June 23, 2011 at 1:53 pm
senthil: You said on June 10, 2011 at 4:07 pm . so it is wrong to classify tamil as dravidian language there is no such thing called dravidian languages.. it is a white mans classification based on their Aryan Invasion Theory.. So, the question is: To which language family does Tamil belong to? 0
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senthil says:
June 23, 2011 at 2:45 pm
Why do you always want to classify the languages? Do you have any identity crisis? 0
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Shankar says:
June 28, 2011 at 2:55 pm
Why not classify languages. What hurt comes to you or your sanskrit. Its people who support sanskrit revival are having an identity crisis, who cannot claim superiority with a dead language unused in day to day activities. Why is there a problem if
languages are classified according to its region and structure. North Indian and South Indian languages have different substratum and you might fear that classification would lead to alienation of sanskrit from so called mother language to language that had an influence. 0
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N Y Murali says:
June 1, 2013 at 5:43 pm
Senthil. I think the Tamilians have an identity crisis only for the past 100 years. If you see the vast Tamil literature we cannot point any reference which gives that Tamil Poets, Kings or normal public had any identity crisis.Why should people think that Sankrit is a North Indian language when there were other local dialects like Pali and Prakrit existed. Many authors have contributed for the development of Vedas who came from different Caste, Sex,Creed, Locations. Even Veda Viyaasa who organized the Vedas is from the fishermen community and hails from Orissa. So once we reconcile to the fact that the entire Bharat has contributed to the development of Veda then we will not have this identity crisis. If Cheran Nedunchezhiyan or Cholan Rajendran won some North Indian Kings or Samudragupta from North winning over Kancheepuram in South, it is a pure act of King who wants to win over other lands and not of any Racist intentions. Nowhere in India in North, East, West or South do we have any literature that says that we had different races and each had a prejudice over the other. Yes. There were sharp criticisms in Religious commentaries and that is a different story altogether and even there also the criticisms were only on Theology and not on money or materialism. I think the time has come that this Aryan- Dravidian Race theory has to be buried altogether. 0
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senthil says:
June 1, 2013 at 11:25 pm
@murali, The tamilian identity itself is artificial.. the entire south india was populated by people of gangetic plains.. There are clear evidence that chera, chola and pandyas came from ayodhya
after sri ram returned from vanvas.. (only after, rameswaram theertha yathra started) The aryan-dravidian story has already died down.. its time we should throw this away from our mind.. When some one asks about this, we should ask WHat is it? 0
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June 23, 2011 at 2:26 pm
Singpore Saravana: You said on June 21, 2011 at 1:59 pm I thoght Tamil is 3000 years old as people saybut many words are extension of Hindi words.. there are directly adopted words like Nidhi,gadhi etc so i am confused whih came first. Present day Tamils mix or borrow words and sentences from other languages extensively. Tamil however is more ancient than Hindi. It is even considered older than Sanskrit by some scholars. Also, some scholars believe that many Sanskrit words have taken their roots from Tamil or Dravidian languages. Some links: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devaneya_Pavanar http://www.hindu.com/2006/05/01/stories/2006050112670100.htm http://www.hindu.com/2006/05/01/stories/2006050101992000.htm 0
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June 25, 2011 at 8:43 pm
Panaiyadi Chozhan said on June 23, 2011 at 1:53 pm Which language family does Tamil belong to? senthil replied on June 23, 2011 at 2:45 pm: Why do you always want to classify the languages? Do you have any identity crisis? Panaiyadi Chozhan responds: Languages *are* classified. I was under the impression you do not quite agree with the existing
classifications. If you answer my question, it would help me lay out may arguments. 0
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senthil says:
June 27, 2011 at 11:45 pm
Who classified languages? When did they classify? yes.. I do not agree with existing classification.. 0
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senthil says:
June 28, 2011 at 12:08 am
Hi, Earlier, shankar mentioned about .. i pointed out that itself is a sanskrit word.. whats your take on it.. Next, the word came from the root word , which in turn came from sanskrit word katha.. But the same does not apply to the word .. and are different.. came from sanskrit word kala which means art.. and means dismantling.. 0
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Shankar says:
June 28, 2011 at 3:21 pm
Yours is a weird logic.. Kathai is to tell a story, and is a verb. is similar to to tell, to sing, to dance etc can be used both transitive and intransitive.. Kalai is to denote art. Its a noun. You cant use it like verb. It can only be used in pair with other nouns. Example . Do care grammar before putting things out of order for the sake of argument. Could you give me some sentences of sanskrit literature using the words kathi and kalanguthal? In fact the sanskrit meaning of the word kathi is Hips or buttocks. Way too far from being any close to tamil word kathi.
Please give some proper reference for the words kathi and kalanguthal occurring in sanskrit, before putting an argument. 0
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senthil says:
June 29, 2011 at 11:47 am
kathai is a noun.. it means, just a story.. when did it become a verb to you? kathaithal is a verb.. its common sense, that many verbs are derived from the noun itself.. People always use the phrase .. to mean the action of telling story.. before asking meaning for kalanguthal, first answer for the word Gathi () .. the pronounciation itself shows the difference.. it is pronounced as Gathi and NOT Kathi.. gathi is clearly a vadasol, being used in tamil.. 0
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Prahlada says:
June 29, 2011 at 11:47 am
Namaskaram, It was a superb job. I used to do these kind analyses too. It is my opinion too,but in addition even that the Tamil alphabets also has Sanskrit alphabets structure.Plese look at the word a and aa , om. Whereas, while talking about the word of Tamil language itself. Please look at the word maatha, pitha, guru, deivam , this words are Sanskrit words, but it were Tamilized. Besides that, it is wise to mention here that Tamil ashara dont have ba, ga, sha, ha, and so on. They use (e.g) ka for Kama and Ganapathi, using ka at the end of namaha word pronounced namaga which suppossed to be namaka. Please observe this in temples that Tamil priest pronounce namaga instead of namaha. Therefore, it is wise to mention here that Sanskrit is the mother of Tamil language too. Tamil language was popularized by the Tamil language fanaticism and biasness not by using scientific methodology. Talking about Brahmi writing as a parallel with Tamil language is ridiculous, due to the facts that the word brahmi the first latter brah is in Sanskrit not in Tamil where they use pira pronounced as pirami or birami because there is no ba but they use pa in Tamil writing. If that is the case how
could this Tamil language can be equivalent to Sanskrit language. As a conclusion nowadays technologies even have proven things that Sanskrit language as the most ancient, perfect and scientific language. 0
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senthil says:
June 29, 2011 at 12:18 pm
/** Why not classify languages. What hurt comes to you or your sanskrit. Its people who support sanskrit revival are having an identity crisis, who cannot claim superiority with a dead language unused in day to day activities. **/ ha ha.. no one started tamil bashing.. on the other hand, it is dravidian racists who started sanskrit bashing.. so its you people who started having identity crisis.. in this blog post, i have clearly stated, how the first grammer book for tamil, tholkappiam, had allowed use of Vadasol in tamil.. but you people claim, that tamil had been developed everything on its own, and that no other language should be used in tamil.. a clear case of your people claiming tamil superority and tamil racism.. /** Why is there a problem if languages are classified according to its region and structure. North Indian and South Indian languages have different substratum and you might fear that classification would lead to alienation of sanskrit from so called mother language to language that had an influence. **/ So you people instead want to claim, that tamil is the mother of all languages? this comedy is seen in the recent tamil conference at coimbatore.. so you dont have any issue when some one says tamil is mother of all languages, but you have problem if some one says the same with sanskrit.. what kind of logic it is? no one can alienate sanskrit, and your dravidian racist could not do so for the past 100 years.. Even in your fascinating eelam tamil, they use sanskrit words in day to day life.. 0
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senthil says:
June 29, 2011 at 12:29 pm
/** Why is there a problem if languages are classified according to its region and structure **/ the structure of language is more similar for all indic languages.. the uyir ezhuthu and Mei ezhuthu, and the combination is same for both north indian language and south indian languages.. Both languages, have Object+Verb_Subject format.. we can translate directly translate hindi to tamil, whereas it is not same w.r.t english.. english have subject+verb+object format.. The existing linguistic classification is done by europeans, and based on their racial concept.. so it cannot be accepted as it is.. 0
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senthil says:
June 29, 2011 at 1:18 pm
@shankar /** Now let me compile some of the common words in both greek and sanskrit. Sanskrit Greek-English: pitar piter father matar- mater -mother janu -gonu -knee daru -doru -tree ekas -os -one duva duo -two trayas tries three catarvas- tettares -four panca pente five sat- hex- six sapta hepta -seven (latin word is septem) asta- okto -eight nava- enne nine ( Interestingly Latin has novem as nine) dasa deka- tem satam-hekaton -hundred(Latin is centum) **/ So you are saying sanksrit derived from greek.. /** Now lets see the similiarity between sanskrit and Iranian words.
Yajna Yasna hotar- Zaotr -priest Mitra Mithra divine power Arya Airya Noble man Duhitr dugdar Daughter **/ What are you trying to convey? sanskrit dervied from persian? /** I think you cant give etymology for most of the words in sanskrit. **/ for sanskrit etymology Refer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirukta .. etymology doesnt always mean, the word should always be broken down.. /** If you take a word in sanskrit it have lots of words to refer to them with different pronunciations. But most of them have no etymology. **/ when you dont know sanskrit, how can you say this? /** Those are words picked up from local languages by people who framed sanskrit. After all sanskrit is just a language reformed or put together **/ I dont deny this.. sanskrit is a constructed language.. the backus naur form, the grammar for programming languages is derived from sanskrit.. /** There is nothing wrong in accepting sanskirt borrowed from other languages. You yourself admit that sanskrit has borrowed from parkrit, but adamant enough to claim that it had not borrowed from any other language other than prakrit. **/ prakrutham is NOT a single language.. it is a term used to denote the spoken language forms.. iyaR tamil is also a prakrutham.. any written language always sources words from the spoken language as its basis.. written language evolves from spoken language its absurd to say that sanskrit loaned words from prakrut.. its like saying ilakkiya tamil loaned words from iyaR tamil.. 0
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Shankar says:
July 1, 2011 at 10:03 am
//So you are saying sanksrit derived from greek.. What are you trying to convey? sanskrit dervied from persian?// Dont ask questions. Just tell answers. I have given you instances where greek and sanskrit have more or less same words for numbers. And have given you instances where persian and sanskrit share a same pronunciation for same meaning. If sanskrit is to be not influenced by any other language, then why the heck is the numbers same in greek and sanskrit? Do you know that after alexander died, there were lot of greek kingdoms in northwestern India and punjab. Even one of greek princess was married to chandragupta maurya. And there were lot of marital exchanges between Indo-greeks and the Indians during those times. Ever heard of seleucid dynasty? Heard of bactrian dynasty? There is a long history of Indo-greeks ruling this northern portion of the subcontinent. Even some of the stone edicts done by Ashoka the great are in greek. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/10/AsokaKandahar.jpg But oh no, sanskrit is pure and never loaned words from other languages. It was greek that took sanskrit words with them to greece. It was invented straight after human evolved from monkeys, or in your words god created humans in this earth. Its other languages which are children to sanskrit. 0
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senthil says:
July 2, 2011 at 3:01 pm
/** If sanskrit is to be not influenced by any other language, then why the heck is the numbers same in greek and sanskrit? **/ and unquestionably, it is the greeks which had imbibed these words from sanskrit.. did you know the difference b/w roman numerals and indian numerals? Alexander, as you might be imagining, did occupy only few areas of territory in the north west border.. and historians project it as though he has won the entire india.. and there is no direct account of his invasion.. western historians rely on accounts of ptolmey, which was written 200 years after alexanders time.. read this link for more details http://2ndlook.wordpress.com/2009/01/23/alexandersconquest-of-india/
Alexander, did not gain anything from his so famous porus war.. infact, when he invaded, he destroyed the takshasheilam which was a center of learning, by killing thousands of brahmans there.. so it is the greeks who should have got the words from sanskrit and not the otherwise.. /** But oh no, sanskrit is pure and never loaned words from other languages. It was greek that took sanskrit words with them to greece. It was invented straight after human evolved from monkeys, or in your words god created humans in this earth. Its other languages which are children to sanskrit. **/ IF your prejudiced mind could not understand the rationale behind, its your problem, just like your stupid Humans evolved from Monkey evolutionism .. Certainly it was greeks who took sanskrit words and many other things with them to greece.. reason is plain simple.. it was they who invaded us and NOT viceversa 0
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senthil says:
July 2, 2011 at 3:03 pm
and read this link too.. http://2ndlook.wordpress.com/2009/02/17/what-happenedto-alexanders-loot-from-india/ 0

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Shankar says:
July 1, 2011 at 10:17 am
//prakrutham is NOT a single language.. it is a term used to denote the spoken language forms.. iyaR tamil is also a prakrutham..// This topic and its discussion ends here. Nothing much to say Continue your jibber jabbers. I am out of here. 0
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senthil says:
Influence of sanskrit over Tamil breaking the dravidian racism | Senthilraja's blog July 1, 2011 at 8:27 pm
when your stupidity is exposed, you find an excuse to get out.. you are free to go.. but the topic remains the same.. Prakrutham is NOT a single language is a known fact.. but your racial mindset never understands it, and you are talking as though prakrutham is a language of a particular race.. grow up man.. and you conveniently ignored the other part of the comment i made, where i explained, how written form of language always based on spoken languages.. 0
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August 25, 2011 at 6:14 pm
Hi Shankar: Please dont leave, unless you are leaving for a more productive discussion elsewhere about the same (or related) topic. If you have found one, please let me know. [Thanks in advance.] In the meantime, please continue to contribute. Others could be reading your views, too. 0
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Suresh says:
July 18, 2011 at 12:34 pm
Wow, what a debate. Whether I like the individual viewpoints or not the fact we have a lively debate is great. Pride in ones roots is always great. However when pride and ego blinds one to facts it becomes sad. Instead of picking up the main theme of this blog which to my mind is do we have a common past and the answer unambiguously is yes, then we should find that common ground and build it. There is one theory that all human life evolved in the southern part of the peninsula and post the great flood, moved north to higher land in order to avoid flood. THis would mean ALL Indians evolved in the southern part and then moved north. This also fits in with MitDNA traces where life moved from Africa to Indian sub-continent and then upwards and outwards. It should logically follow that speech, language . culture and thought would come from the same crucible. The essence of this is the Dharmic tradition which binds the entire land. In which language this is expressed should be a function of
evolution of each language. Nothing grows in a vacuum, so interplay is the natural way. Establishing primacy is a function of individual ego. Who came first at this stage is irrelevant. Whether we belong to one tradition is more important. This, ti my mind, is what the blog owner is trying to show. How sad that the British genius in making Indians fight one another is still succeeding. How sad that an attempt to find common ground is being thwarted by quoting the scholarly works of people who themselves are without roots and do not wish those who have one to come together.When will our minds listen to our hearts, which resonate with eternal Dharma? And understand the privilege of being born in this great land. 0
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senthil says:
July 18, 2011 at 1:36 pm
Thanks suresh.. unfortunately, we have to fight the colonial slaves, and the parasites that british created.. i was seeking a complete relook in to the concept of linguistics and indology.. the aryan dravidian racial theories has been broken by many facts discovered in our literature.. One such thing is the fact that first known tamil grammar was a brahmin.. 0
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Suresh says:
July 18, 2011 at 8:12 pm
http://ancientindians.wordpress.com/analysis/deva-bhashassanskrit-and-tamil/ you may want to check this link out.. If I read your blog along with this link we get some idea of what our ancients were like and how great our history really is. 0
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N Raveendran says:
July 18, 2011 at 2:52 pm
Oh ! fight among the learned is not a British legacy !!!!!! it is also one of our traditions. In fact our religion has encouraged a difference in points of view and have had often seen epic tharkkams to establish truth , wisdom and realisation. Therefore, I am not seeing anything different here. Please keep the discussion going. it will only make us wiser.
all the best Senthil. great topic 0

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senthil says:
July 19, 2011 at 12:06 pm
thanks raveendran.. actually, tharkam is different from the blind ideological fight as we see currently.. 0
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swami says:
August 26, 2011 at 1:02 am
ya tharkam should not turn into kutharkam 0

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August 25, 2011 at 6:10 pm
Hi Senthil: The reasoning you have given looks too weak.In support of my argument, I have shown you several steps of derivation. Given that Sankrit is a synthesized language, one would expect that those who have synthesized it would have borrowed from existing languages. Can you show me a stronger possibility that poosai was derived from pooja? For example, how was pooja constructed in the first place? Regarding the word kathai, I have argued for it derivation above, which I repeat here: Derivation of kathai: Or (noise) > Orai (make noise ) > Urai (create noise, speak) > karai (make noise, cry(English)) > kathai (make noise, speak) > kathai (noun speaking, story) Other related words: kaththu make noise, shout.
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swami says:
August 26, 2011 at 1:59 am
very intresting and thought provoking discussion. after reading the entire blog, this is my inference. slang is nothing but same words pronounced diffrerently. In Tamil nadu, we have thirunalveli slang, madurai slang etc. changes to words occur primarily due to pronouncing the word in a different way. we can extend the same property to languages as a whole as well. then languages are different slangs of the backbone sound. after all, the entire existance is sound (naadha brahmam). Lets take the name of the avatar Ram. his name is actually ram. but in tamilnadu we call him Rama, Raman, Ramar. the addition of a, an, ar is a change in pronunciation. But his name is still Ram. Same goes with Arjun. IN tamil nadu, its Arjunan or Arjunar. The same can be seen in the word AUM (its not OM) as well. it became AUMen in the west. Atman became Adam, Jiva became Eve.. (i read this in sankaarcharyas book Hindu Dharma) so looking at etymology is not going to help identify which language came first. because every language has similarities in sounds some way or other.this is not a sufficient yard stick to determine which slang (language) came first.what we need to look at is geography and when humans inhabited those geographies. infact, why differences in pronunciation araises is a very basic question for which we may not get any answer straight away. but the answer lies within this. as suresh mentioned, the indian cilization began from south india without any doubt and people migrated from south to north during the aazhi pralayam as mentioned in the blog. We dont know the year when this happened. I dont think any other civilization existed 15000 years ago as other parts were still covered by Ice. So lets bother about Bharata varsha alone now. Also for what purpose the language was used? basic purpose is to communicate human expressions. Sanskrit is a language which has got phonetic significance unlike any other language in the world. there is a relation between sound and form. every form is nothing but energy which is in a particular vibrance. anything vibrates gives sound. so a form can be associated with sound. So the converse of it is , sound can be associated with form. so sanskrit is a language which was used as a tool using which humans can perceive truths beyong physical. so the utility and purpose of sanskrit is diffrerent from other languages. it is a door way to non physical. And thats why its a called deva baashai as it is not used just for colloqual communication. Ifs conetext and purpose is different. Rishis didnt sit in a room like britishers conspiring tamil words and changing it appropriately. All the mantras are not told. They were seen. Not with their physical eyes but with their awareness of how the existance is. So more than grammer, the improtance in sanskrit is to the sound. So additional sounds were required to express these non physical realities. So sounds/words were uttered in
a particular form so that a particular vibrations happen in and around the being. tamil doesnt have few words that are present in sanskrit/hindi(ka, kha, ga, gha, nja). tamil uses the same words for all forms of ka in tamil. which means, Sanskrit/hindi has more words than tamil, which means sanskrit/hindi was developed on top of tamil, which means tamil was pre existing as a mother language. Probably Rishis perceived these vibrations and they needed additional words to express these sounds. so they added more sounds and when these new sounds mix with others, new words are born. new words are then exchanged in other languages as well and was not seen as a concern at all. Can you Show me one poem from tamil scriptures which is screaming and shouting at this sanskrit language? Its just an understanding that purpose of sanskrit is different. So finally to conclude, languages evolve to cater the needs and purposes as and when humans evolve and they get influenced/changed (thiribu adaithal) by the way peoples pronunciations. If i have to use an anology, tamil and sanskrit are like mother and child. if a child is becoming an expert, the mother will be happy too.So there is no problem with tamil and sanskrit. The probelm is only with the modern mind (dravidian activists) whos identity is stuck with limited perception. Now these modern minds want exclusiveness. They want TM rights for tamil. they want to globally declared tamil is the superior language. From where this idea of exclusiveness and superiority come from??? Its from the britishers. they are the ones who infused this virus into the indian minds. So dravidian activists, please grow up.. evolove.. understand that the purpose of sanskrit is different than tamil.. then you will be able to appreciate any language.. learn to appreciate differences. 0
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senthil says:
August 26, 2011 at 11:04 am
thanks for detailed comment swami.. you also need to consider the praktrutham, which is peoples language.. prakrutham is NOT single language, but a term used to denote group of languages used by common people.. 0
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swami says:
August 26, 2011 at 12:22 pm
does it include tamil as well? to be honest, i hear this word first time in the blog. i guess i need to read the blog once again to know more about prakrutham. My above post was in general about sounds but i dont have timelines to justify the geographical habitations of humans. Do
you agree, people migrated from South india to north? or do you beleive it happened the other way around? Whats ur view? If they moved from south to north, do you think the vedas were existing when people were in south before the aazhi peralai? if they moved to north after that and flourished in cilization (period of ram avatar), did south fail to flourish? who is hanuman in ramayana? Why is valmiki refering hanuman as a monkey like creature? is he trying to say people from south were not fully civilized as humans? 0
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swami says:
August 26, 2011 at 12:27 pm
and FYI, i just heard one subramanya swami speach today where he mentioned that the word dravida was first used by Adhi Shankara (8th century AD) during a debate. The word Dravida sisu appears in one sloka from soundarya lahari as well. even subramanya swami says that the aryan dravidian theory is a stupid one.. 0
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August 27, 2011 at 1:09 pm
swami you said on August 26, 2011 at 1:59 am > .. there is a relation between sound and form. Sound relates to meaning,which directs actions and changes (both internally in the mind and externally in the world). I dont know what you mean by form. > ..every form is nothing but energy What energy? Say electrical, mechanical? > .. anything vibrates gives sound. Photons vibrate. Is there a sound? >so a form can be associated with sound. It is upto the hearer. > ..the utility and purpose of sanskrit is diffrerent from >other languages. it is a door way to non physical > its a called deva baashai .
These are the claims that were being made for thousands of years, and I happen to belong to that community that literally believed in this kind of stuff .. and now there is an awakening among our(my) people. What we are now doing is to actually interpret all these claims from our own view point, and we are already getting some interesting results such as: that all this can be just stuff invented to distract people so that they can be exploited. Etc. > sanskrit/hindi was developed on top of tamil, which > means tamil was pre existing as a mother language. Is this a casual remark, or a well thought out conclusion? > tamil and sanskrit are like mother and child. I suppose you mean Tamil is the mother and Sankrit the child. Is Senthil happy with this conclusion? Wont this make the thousands of Sanskrit scholars and enthusiasts all around the world unhappy and angry? >there is no problem with tamil and sanskrit. The probelm is >only with the modern mind (dravidian activists) The word dravida was used early in Sankrit works. Researchers say that it was used to refer to people in South, in particular Tamils. The claimed derivation is: Thamil < Damila < Dramila They want TM rights for tamil. they want to globally >declared tamil is the superior language. From where this > idea of exclusiveness and superiority come from??? Why, what is wrong with this? Tamils would like to re-establish themselves as regional and then as a global power. All around us see how very tiny nations could achieve so much! This awakening among Tamils could in the long run directly benefit all people living in India. 0
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Swami says:
August 28, 2011 at 12:18 am
Any animate or inanimate thing like humans or rock is bound to their physical structure(form) by ENERGY. This is science now. We call it shakth in Tamil. The whole existance is just energy. Energy is everywhere and nowhere. Its just reverberating in different way. Anything that vibrates gives sound. This is also science buddy. May be humans cant here those sound. Havent u heard the word ultra sound. If
photons vibrate they also generate sound.this is also science now. When u utter the word aum the reverberations happening wihin you will be phenomInal. If you are sensitive enough, u could notice that. So yes, anything vibrates gives sound. Its science. Its how the existence is.So every form (physical matter) has a sound attached to it. It is with this understanding that the sanskrit language has been devised. To access the non Physical.. Just sit infront of a living guru and do some yoga. These are fundamental concepts that u will learn from them. 0
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senthil says:
August 28, 2011 at 8:52 pm
/** that all this can be just stuff invented to distract people so that they can be exploited. Etc. **/ This is what i call it as an attempt to impose malicious intent.. and what brahmins can exploit out of sanskrit? if you look carefully, these stuffs started to exist only after british dominated indian polity and introduction of british academic system.. ie, we acquired the racism that was non-existing before.. and you conveniently call it as brahminical exploitation.. should i say it as ideological bias.. /** uppose you mean Tamil is the mother and Sankrit the child. Is Senthil happy with this conclusion? Wont this make the thousands of Sanskrit scholars and enthusiasts all around the world unhappy and angry? **/ This is debate, and swami expresses his point. so there is no need for me to get angry .. Btw, if tamil is the mother, my question would be which tamil? ? is it written tamil or spoken tamil? /** Why, what is wrong with this? Tamils would like to reestablish themselves as regional and then as a global power. **/ Who are the tamils, that you are referring to? Is karunanidhi a tamil? is jayalalitha a tamil? Is periyar a tamil? pls show me the tamil race??
You have clearly displayed your racial perspective here.. all that you want is a lust for power, domination and authority.. this doesnt constitute superiority in terms of quality of language.. The term Dravida is a very direct one.. draviam means water.. dravida means, a place surrounded by water.. 0
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senthil says:
August 26, 2011 at 9:24 pm
/** Do you agree, people migrated from South india to north? or do you beleive it happened the other way around? Whats ur view? **/ South india was called dhanda karunya, in our ancient texts.. which means full of forest.. and we know the saraswathi and gangetic plains are flourishing with civilization.. So its natural, that concept of empire was formed there, and slowly new kingdoms created in south.. this is just my opinion.. 0
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swami says:
August 26, 2011 at 11:09 pm
may be it was forest. but i think civilization did exists in south. parasu rama (who was before ramas period and also some overlap), fought against the kings of malabar.. starting gujarat till kerala.. this is from wikipedia. may be the central india was dense forest which prevented north from realizing that south also had a civilization? if so people who mastered astronomy didnt know about their own land ?? its contradictory. wiki has the chronology of tamil history.. pre historic period goes way back to 30000 BCE. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_Tamil_history 0
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Suresh says:
August 28, 2011 at 10:26 pm
Pls also consider this link http://ancientindians.wordpress.com/2009/10/08/karikalachola-and-the-ikshvakus-tiruvalangadu-copper-plates-ofhttp://psenthilraja.wordpress.com/2010/07/06/influence-of-sanskrit-over-tamil/[31-08-2013 18:54:09]
rajendra-chola-i/ By this authors reckoning the first Sangam is circa 4000 BCE. We need to critically look at Western time lines , also Western myths such as that of Alexander who was not great, a barbarian and lost to Puru. BTW dont necessarily agree with everything in the blog but its a painstaking data gathered by one individual and worthy of dissemination. 0
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senthil says:
August 29, 2011 at 10:09 am
@suresh, Thanks.. there are many copper plates, which dates back to 4000 years and beyond.. the entire western time line has to be reviewed and relooked.. the recent excavations at dholavera, had proved the western theories as false.. which means, nearly 1 lakh books on history lying in western academia will become invalid.. Let see how history evolves. 0
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senthil says:
August 26, 2011 at 9:27 pm
@swami, Dravida means, a place surrounded by water.. these are not racial.. it is britishers who made it racial.. we have to just reject their thesis.. 0
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swami says:
August 26, 2011 at 10:24 pm
yup i was trying to convey that senthil. 0

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August 28, 2011 at 7:15 pm
Hi Swamy: You said on August 28, 2011 at 12:18 am >Anything that vibrates gives sound. This is also science buddy. >If photons vibrate they also generate sound. this is also science now. Wiki: Sound is a mechanical wave that is an oscillation of pressure composed of frequencies within the range of hearing. Given the above definition of sound, certainly photon doesnt give rise to sound. If you have heard any sound of photons vibrating, please let me know how. Or, give some references. Stars vibrate too. No sound as defined in Wiki, comes from there. Vibrations from dark matters certainly cant be heard as sound. Anyway, Senthil will get annoyed that this thread is taking us away from the original theme Sanksrit Vs Tamil. I will restrict my future postings to the main theme. 0
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senthil says:
August 28, 2011 at 8:56 pm
/** Anyway, Senthil will get annoyed that this thread is taking us away from the original theme Sanksrit Vs Tamil. **/ Please feel free to express your thoughts freely.. whether i am annoyed or not doesnt matter.. and it should not matter.. Btw, i was neither angry nor annoyed.. i am enjoying the debate.. 0
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swami says:
August 29, 2011 at 7:02 am
this shows your ignorance. So you mean to say there is no other frequencies of sounds in existance? dont you know animals can hear things that humans cant hear? the above definition of sound is the most stupid definition i have ever seen. the western scientists are babies when compared to indian science that was expressed in the past. you havent responded to me regarding ultra sound.
discussion of sound has the answer to this blog and confusions in it. so its not different from tamil vs sanskrit. understanding the sounds is the key. not understanding this is the reason why every one is stuck with their mother toung and are fighting to project it as the best language. you go and ask a telugu person. he will laugh if we say telugu came from tamil. every one is so stuck with their limited identifiy that they have aquired cos of their language. what ever western scientist says, you will accept without any debate. what ever indian yogis say, you wont accept. You people will only find mistakes in them. now americans started doing yoga and now yoga is getting popular in india as well. sceientists who is generally considered to be logical doesnt want to accept that they are getting illogical. so they have invented a new term fuzzy logic. fuzzy logic means no logic. physical sceince has touch the threashold of the physical existance. so they started meta physics. See the below link where nasa is on sanskrit now.. http://www.vedicsciences.net/articles/sanskrit-nasa.html one day they will accpet what ever our rishis percived thousands of years earlier. then people like you who doesnt have any indigenous thinking will put jalra for the westerners. indians have lost self respect on indian land and its values. They have forgotten the greatness of indians and their contribution to science. They are RNI. Residential non indians. i call thier phycological state as phychological impotence. 0
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swami says:
August 29, 2011 at 7:05 am
the above comment is response @ Panaiyadi Chozhan 0

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vinothkumar says:
comedy guys if sanskrit is indo-european so is tamil tamil archan king greek archon king tamil palli village
greek polis city tamil pala many greek poly many tamil kalam sea vessel greek galle sea vessel tamil keeru scribble ( to draw) greek graph to draw tamil king pandian greek mythological king pandion the founder of the greek mycnea partha aka perseus the founder of tamil madurai parthavar aka pandian the fish eyed goddess of greek athena the fish eyed goddess of romans minerva the fish eyed goddess of tamils meenakshi english one, european languages uno, tamil onnu sanskrit is deiva basha, so is tamil , tamil itself is siva the first available epigraph of sanskrit that too by kushans (non indians) belong to 150 ad the first available epigraph of tamil 300 bce same as the first available prakrit one tamil spanish ancient greeks (minoans) performed/ performing bull leaping japanese( Tsutomu Kambe) scholar related tamil to japanese korean scholar related tamil to korean italian scholar(n. lahovary) related tamil to basque (spoken in spain) brazilian scholar (Aryos santos) related tamil to guanche (spoken in north of the africa) african scholar (clyde winters) related tamil to african etc. 0
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Swami says:
November 22, 2011 at 6:12 am
i dont know why sanskrit needs to be indo european. its purely indian.. europeans claim everything as theirs and try to find roots to which ever is indian and claim rights. atleast let tamil be authentic and lets not say tamil is india european. its purely indian
/*sanskrit is deiva basha, so is tamil , tamil itself is siva*/ i am going to give a reply with my computer science background. apologies if this doesnt make sense to others.. Sanskrit is not a language for commercial or colloquel purpose. Tamil, english, italian french, chinese and all other world languages are like C, C++, C#, Java which is used by programmers to do computer programming. its easy and comprehendable. But sanskrit is like the machine code which computers understand. Or u can call its similar to the hexadecimal and then binary representation (one and zero) in turn. what ever is written in user languages like C, C++, C#, VB, Java will internally get converted into a machine level code for processing. so there is a user level language (c, C++ etc) and a machine level language. which is better? its stupid to argue which is better. Which is convinient for a programmer (common man)? Its just that User level languages are convinient for programmers. but hard core techies can still understand when they look at the machine level representations. Like the binary involves 1s and 0s, sanskrit involves basic sounds (A, U, M which is the basic sounds or universal sounds or pranava manthiram). what ever word is uttered by us, end of the day its some sound uttered in a certain way. so when we utter them, tounge is in a position, abdomen goes to certain position, energies move in a certain way.considering all these if certain sounds are uttered in a certain way, it takes the person to a certain state of energy. understanding this relationship between sounds and effects of energies is important and its too technical and complicated that only techies can corelate the relationship between these 2 (sounds and energies). sanskrit works on this plane. low level, fundamental where as all other world languages are used for communication and doesnt have phonetic importance i.e it is not conciously and purposefully built with this idea in mind. with this said, tamil by itself is naturally a little highly inclined towards the natural utterances of sounds/words and meanings. but like i said sanskrit is in a fundamental level and used for different purpose.. so its foolish to compare and fight tamil vs sanskrit. Yes. there are lots of songs written in tamil on siva and appar, nyanasambandar etc have played vital role and siva has responded to them. siva (god) responds to anyone irrespective of language. anyone who knows little yoga will understand the enrgies in human body and will not get into argument of tamil vs sanskrit. others who are emotionally connected with tamil will blindly fight for tamil and illogically reject sanskrit as it is happening in this blog.. 0
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senthil says:
November 22, 2011 at 8:55 am
Vinoth, No one denies tamil too have influence over european languages. eg: catamaran = Kattumaram Now, i will ask this question.. is the word Ilakkanam () a tamil word?? Its derived from the word Lakshana and then Lakkanam () and then a added before it.. Similarly for the word Ilakkiyam ( ) .. is it tamil word?? ok.. how about the word kaalam () is it tamil word or sanskrit?? The answer lies NOT in proving whether its tamil or sanskrit.. The answer will come, only if we change the fundamental perspective of Languages and Linguistic.. We need to break the western racial theory of linuistics, and turn chart our own path.. OUr focus should be NOT in proving, but in understanding.. 0
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Swami says:
senthil. am just trying to play devils advocate here.. what is the proof that the sanskrit word lakshana came from tamil word Ilakkanam. how are you sure that tamil word came later to sanskrit word. unless we know the chronology of events how can we come to this conclusion that tamil word came after the sanskrit word? 0
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senthil says:
@swamy, Just take the word Ilakkanam ( ).. why do we add in the front? those who know tamil grammar will know this? There is no such thing as chronology of words.. this is NOT possible to find out.. what we have is that a particular word came from sanskrit .. 0
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Swami says:
Please let me know why we add E in front of ilakkanam. i kinda forgot basics of tamil grammer 0
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senthil says:
@swamy, Even i dont know full grammar.. but what i remember is that tamil words should not start with letters Ra , la etc.. so an is added in front of it.. eg , etc .. This happens only when we use foreign words.. 0
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RajeshA says:
Senthil ji, thanks a lot for your contribution to bridging the gap between Tamil and Sanskrit. There is a lively discussion in the thread Link Language for India in the General Discussion Forum of Bharat-Rakshak Forum (BRF) @ http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/. There is a strong lobby of Tamils, who are firmly against any efforts to look for some such language. We all would very much appreciate your inputs there. TIA 0
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senthil says:
Rajesh, Thanks.. i often read some interesting threads in bharat-rakshak. Can you cite any threads where these tamil groups are debating?
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palanimuthu says:
That Existing Tamil Grammar book before Tholkappiam is Agatiam which is not available fully now but few quotation seen from old tamil books. 0
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Vinoth says:
January 21, 2012 at 11:33 am
the other word for ilakkanam in tamil is kuri (mark) .
,, , , () , , ,
also sorry for the wrong info, athena and minerva not fish eyed goddess 0
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omkumar says:
Hi Senthil, The meaning you posted might be valid but still we cant be sure. These sentences has a lot of probability of combination of words.In tamil, , , are the other words for teacher if or are not tamil. athikaram /sangha- agreed For sangam lot of equivalant tamil words are there. Kazhagam,Avaiyam etc.. Wat ram told abt the words kathai,kalai might be true. Any Book while it was created would be new at that time and could not be named
as old book then.Thol kappiyam means Old book.So The name of the book had been unknown till some ppl named it as Thol kappiyam.Also tamilians has the tendency to denote the unknown author using the book name/puns he used.So The author might be named as Thol kappiar. We can infer might be sung by some other ppl.( as ram points out as panampaaranaar).It wud be really wierd that some one described abt himself as Tholkappian ,the name which he got from the old book he wrote. 0
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logesh says:
February 18, 2012 at 11:58 pm
Brahmana means people who were mere beggars in d name of aryan gods like ram vishnu. Tamil was developed by MALLAS (MALLAR) long back in 200000bc-30000bc in lemuria (KUMARI KANDAM) there are no records of brahmanas in tamil poems. thn how can Tolkappiar b a brahmana?????? Dnt assume urself bcoz history is all about truth 0
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Swami says:
Lemuria is British propagated concept which is a big hit with a masala story . Where in Tamil texts do we have reference to this? 0
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senthil says:
March 2, 2012 at 10:31 am
@logesh, So tholkappiar, who wrote the grammar for tamil is a mallar? There are ample refferences to vedas and brahmanas in sangam literature, and even in tirukkural.. pls read those.. 0
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vedamgopal says:
March 3, 2012 at 10:19 am
.. . . . 0
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. . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . .
.. . 100 . .
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ramachandrasekaran says:
April 13, 2012 at 9:07 pm
. . . . . . ./ , . . ./(. ) ./ .,,,.., .,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,. 0

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. .
. . .
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senthil says:
April 14, 2012 at 12:15 am
I agree with you.. however, the words are prakrutha words, rather than samskrutha one.. Even in tamil, we have spoken tamil (prakrutha) and literary tamil (samskrutha) 0
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swami says:
April 15, 2012 at 4:52 am
where does grandham fit into? 0

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ramachandrasekaran says:
April 14, 2012 at 10:58 pm
; ,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,, etc !/ . / /. . 300/400 ; 0

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. ./
slogans .
. . .. .
. . . ./ .
. 0
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says:
April 18, 2012 at 7:34 am
() 15-4-12 60 . . / . () . / . ., ,,2/4 (),,,, ,,,,. . 60 () 0

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. /
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senthil says:
April 18, 2012 at 4:54 pm
., 40% .. .. 0
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.. ,
..
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anbuchezhian says:
September 16, 2012 at 8:14 pm
but more than 60% words are tamil words in sanskrit. and also the name of sanskrit is also derived from tamil word samaikkappatta krantham. samai >> samas . keeri >. > keeruthal > > krantha > > krutham it forms like samaskrutham. samai means cook or recorrect krantham means keeri elutha paduthal. thus the way tamil is greatest than sanskrit.
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senthil says:
September 19, 2012 at 10:01 am
@anbuchezhian, Your logic doesnt make sense here.. there are lot of difference b/w keeru, and Krutham.. such weird comparisons is what makes tamil activist fail. Can you Please substantiate your claim with references ? .. 0
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says:
April 18, 2012 at 9:41 pm
,,,,, / /. . .. . cockney words . . gonna,wanna. . ., , , . .That which is perfect. . . . / . .packed with vibrations. .,/ . . . . . () , . ./ . . . . . . . . . . , // / . . . / . . . . , . 0
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Swami says:
April 20, 2012 at 6:45 am
if tamil was created later than sanskrit, then why did they drop few basic words that were in sanskrit/hindi? like hindi has ka, kha ga, gha, nya. but we just have one word in tamil KA for all these. do you think a
language that is developed later will have less words than its parent language? 0
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says:
April 20, 2012 at 6:28 pm
18-04-12 . / .,, .? . . ( . ?) 0
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. /? .
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Pothy says:
April 25, 2012 at 1:11 pm
Sanskrit belongs to the Indo European branch of languages. Its affinity to German, Latin, Greek etc are well known to scholars and documented in detail. Assigning Sanskrit as a model from which Tamil developed may seem plausible in view of the large number of words found in Tamil of Sanskrit origin. However it should be noted that if from the 1st Millennium BC Indo Europeans arriving in India with a language that was persumably close to Sanskrit or Sanskrit itself would have setlled down with the natives of India in many places. DNA tests clearly show Indians are of mixed characteristics. In fact despite appearances the average Indian has more genes in common with Europeans than a Jew despite the latters superficial similar appearance to Europeans. I point this out to show the Sanskrit speakers were definitely in co-existence with the natives of India for a long time. Naturally these languages influenced and borrowed from each other while the grammatical base features must have some resilience. The question of Tamil versus Sanskrit origins must be laid to rest certainly both languages originated separately. There are far more Sanskrit words in Tamil than the other way around so the prestige status of Sanskrit must have been higher in many areas of India. Given the rituals and ceremonies in temples are conducted in Sanskrit, one avenue by which this has happened is quite obvious. Also, we see other languages similar to Tamil, namely Telugu and Kannada, having much more words and sounds similar to Sanskrit and geographicaly the speakers are also further north than mostly Tamil speaking peoples in India. Please note that by natives I mean the groups of people who have stayed in India much longer than the arriving Indo Europeans. We must not imagine that ancient peoples were bothered about language purity what works is what they would have adopted. Having a writing system different from other languages would help to keep the main features and sounds of a language intact. The still undeciphered script found in the famous ancient sites of
Mohenjo-Daro and Harrapa attest a native Indian literate civilization and shows no need of the native langueges (which Im persuaded are the so called Dravidian tongues) to have originated from Sanskrit as some have suggested. Im fascinated by the interaction between Sanskrit and Tamil, the latter being the most Dravidian of hte Dravidian languages still extant. Grammarians have noted that while there are many words from Sanskrit in Tamil the basic structure of Tamil has not been affected by Sanskrit. Please note I use the word Dravidian for convenience; I agree that its not a good fitting term for the people and language of pre Aryan India. 0
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senthil says:
April 26, 2012 at 12:22 pm
Can you provide any proof that sanskrit is an european language? To me, this is illogical.. the grammatical structure of both are entirely different. 0
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Pothy says:
April 26, 2012 at 1:34 pm
To be precise, Indo-European, not European. Within Europe itself the range of language differences are great. A printed text in German, Russian, Greek, and Latin will give a idea of how different languages from the same root can become. Its called Indo European languages having this common basic vocabulary set have been found from India, Iran, East Europe, Russia and Western Europe. Grammatical structures have changed over the years but many basic words and the forms from which they evolved show close affinities. Take the word for name: Hindi from Sanskrit has naam; Malay influenced by Sanskrit has nama; Greek has nomos; English has name, the last e once pronounced now not gives a clue to the original form. Another word is three. You can see from varoius Indo-European languages forms of three as treis, tri, three etc. Please see this link http://andromeda.rutgers.edu/~jlynch/language.html for the relationships between the various languages. The migration of the Indo Europeans from their original homelands can be seen in the language sub groups. For a detailed look please look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages which includes the sound changes and conjugations. Obviously the
grammar did change. So for grammatical changes its intriguing in India what changed what? The native tongues modifed the incoming language or vice versa or a confluence of both? Thank you Senthil for your post. Theres so much that needs to be researched within India about language evolution and that critical formative period in the BC period. 0
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Swami says:
April 26, 2012 at 2:41 pm
The idea that Europeans came to Indian geographical area itself is a stupid idea. Its a euro centric idea. Europeans wanted to steal the credit of ancient glory. Since they had upper hand at around 17 th century, they propagated this euro centric theory. In any historical or scientific discussions if u notice carefully they will conveniently avoid talking about India. They will talk abt Africa, middle east and then will jump to china. They wont bring in India. Aryans are NOT the europeans 0
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Pothy says:
April 27, 2012 at 8:02 am
Perhaps all the words used Indo European, native Indians and so on should be avoided. The sheer complexity of human relations in India alone that DNA can show can be seen at this article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetics_and_archaeogenetics_of_South_Asia . If DNA records show such inter-relatedness between the inhabitants of India how about languages? Their evolution will certainly be affected by the frequent changes of locale of humans as they move around. So the lanuage stems, words, sounds and of course grammar would show up in ways that make if difficult to untangle origin and descent. 0
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Swami says:
April 27, 2012 at 2:24 pm
So? 0
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Swami says:
April 27, 2012 at 2:34 pm
Ok. If human DNAs are complex so be it. What made you think European languages came first and then Indian Sanskrit came as as an offshoot of European languages? I would say it could have happened the other way. When your europe was in ice age 10000 years ago,India had full fledged civilization.So please dont bring Europe into this discussion. This is just wihin the Indian sub continent and its wihin Sanskrit and Tamil. Sanskrit is a medium (aka language) that was designed to represent spiritual truths. It was a language perceived and used understanding the relationship between sound and form. Its a subtle deep science. None of The languages including Tamil has this property. But all Indian languages had healthy exchange of words with Sanskrit. So any fight over this is childish. End of story.. 0
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p p (@pinkyp18) says:
April 27, 2012 at 9:57 am
From: http://2ndlook.wordpress.com/2008/02/02/rat-migration-andhistory-looks-different/ India has about 40000 endogamous population groups. So, sampling is the most crucial thing. Some of these studies by Westerners have fixed their sample size to reflect their own bias. Bamshad study is (from received opinion), suffers from sample size problems. After the sample, again what markers you isolate to differentiate and derive these conclusions can influence the outcome. In some cases there are clear discrepancies, when the same group is studies by Indians. A further bolster to the new theory is DNA and mitochondrial mapping done by various teams. These mapping and analyses (Sanghamitra Sahoo, et al) show that there has been no major DNA (Analabha Basu, et al) inputs into India. Some expert interpretation show that this data may require more and further research as everything does all the time. More research done in India also throws up similar results regarding domestic DNA. This same research also shows that Indians share certain DNA markers with West /Middle East Asia which supports Indian presence in Egypt, Mesopotamia (Syria, Iraq) and Anatolia (Turkey). So, this research overall seems to be against the Aryan Invasion /Migration Theory. 0
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Pothy says:
April 27, 2012 at 11:48 am
The Aryan Migration Theory is an old one and definitely outdated. If you see the Wiki link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetics_and_archaeogenetics_of_South_Asia you will notice the main outlines of a possible big migration of people from India to the Middle East and nearby areas is pointed out but the time frame is far earlier. However there certainly was a group if Indo Eurupeans who came into India ca 1500 BC or later. DNA analysis does confirm this. Please see referenced link. No major DNA inputs? True but evan a few dominating groups will spread their genes far and wide. A good example if Genghiz Khan whose DNA marker has been found in 4% of Asians, a large percentage for one person of relatively recent existence! There were no large scale migration of Central Asians to India . East Asians presence in North East Asia is still minuscule compared to the general Indian poplulation. In all the bigger presence of external DNA are marker genes similar to Indo European groups. Re-discovering India is more Indian is great but there should be no denial of Indo Eurepeans having entered and making a significant contribution to the genetic mix, and without a doubt the language landscape as well. 0
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Swami says:
April 27, 2012 at 2:41 pm
Even if Europeans mixed with Indians, its definitely not them who gave Sanskrit to us. It was only during Mahabharata timeframe things were written (in Sanskrit). It doesnt mean that Sanskrit was invented at that time. It was there as a oral tradition get more than 10000BC 0
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senthil says:
April 28, 2012 at 3:30 pm
@pothy, you are still making unsubstantiated claims.. DNA marker has nothing to do with language..
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Pothy says:
April 30, 2012 at 11:15 am
DNA is not lanuage yes. But my point is a DNA analysis shows how people are related and since language is conveyred by human migratory patttens and show also language movement. Long before DNA analysis, linguistic experts were detecting migrations of peoples and languages via changes in words. DNA today confirms the linguiists findings. Two witnesses are more reliable than one. 0
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April 30, 2012 at 11:53 am
it should be noted that if from the 1st Millennium BC Indo Europeans arriving in India with a language that was persumably close to Sanskrit or Sanskrit itself would have setlled down with the natives of India in many places. 1) Europeans came to India with Sanskrit?? -> Migration Out of Africa http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/journey/ If you go clicking play all the way through then , you will find answers to our journey. Origin in Africa , then to India and then all the way to Borneo, Australia, then a drastic climate change , moving Northwards towards Central Asia and Europe. This is Stephen Oppenheimers brilliant piece of work in archeogenetics. This describes an upward movement towards Central Asia from India. So migration our o 2) Sanskrit and Tamil could have developed independently in India. 3) What about Sinhala language, which comes under Indo-Aryan branch, Did Europeans also came from South? 0
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Pothy says:
April 30, 2012 at 12:19 pm
I wrote Indo Europeans, not Europeans. Europeans can only be the name of peoples who have lived long enough in Europe to
qualify. Indo European is a name of convenience and not meant to implly Europeanness. I did allude to Oppenheimers work in one of the previous posts without naming him. The details of his proposal are of course being worked out. I agree with you on (2) on Tamil could have developed lcoally; on Sanskrit origin it bears on whether Oppenheimers thesis stands experts scrutiny. On (3) why you dont consider language went from India ? Also again DNA markers confirm a mixed group of people in Sri Lanka. 0
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April 30, 2012 at 12:48 pm
On (3) why you dont consider language went from India ? Thats what I am implying. Sanskrit developed in India (Sri lanka is a part of India) and then went to Central asia and Europe. 0
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Suresh B says:
April 30, 2012 at 1:32 pm
I have a feeling that since the Aryan Invasion / Migration theory has been largely discredited by independent sources the evangelical churches and their cohorts are now modifying their approach. Instead of straightaway falsifying Indian roots as from European they are now probably talking of input from Europeans around 1500 BCE . What DNA marker theorists fails to mention is that though there more common mitDNA markets between Indians and Europeans the markers between Northern and Southern India is far far higher. This can only mean that markers got diluted as Indians went OUT of India rather than Europeans came INTO India. And on a 10,000 year time scale a few Europeans coming in around 1500 BCE cannot significantly vary the maker patterns. Also that skin colour has no caste implications. 0
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Pothy says:
April 30, 2012 at 1:37 pm
Theres an active debate on this amongst language experts. There are a few Western scholars who propose Sanskrit as the mother of the Indo Eurpean languages. This is not confirmed yet so I prefet
to be a moderate and let the pundits of language find out more. In the absence of strong evidence I will also maintain that Tamil is of a separate origin from Sanskrit while having many loan words from it. Ultimately all languages as often pointed out by linguists do come from one origin and that original language it seems to me should be the one explaining all the variations of words and sounds found amongst living languages. 0
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says:
April 26, 2012 at 5:34 pm
,,,,,, . // . ., ./ . .,, ,, , ,, . . ./ . ,,() . / . (29-08-11) .490 . . . . ? ! . ./ . . , /, .,/,,/,/ ( 18-04-12 ),/ / . /. . . /. // / . . ,,, / ..12/13 , , . ,,,& . . . . / / . ,,. . ? / / . ()/ . ? . / . . 40/50 / // . 0
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/() /, , / ,/, ? , . .. /. . 0 . . ////() .
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gaurav kohale says:

May 14, 2012 at 6:02 pm
A language researcher named kashinath proved that hindi is a dravidian language using rules for dravidian languages and also proved that the rules were false. 0
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Natesan says:
May 17, 2012 at 10:54 pm
Awesome post..i enjoyed reading it. i think both, Sanskrit and Tamil are the biggest assets of an Indian. As Periyava has said, one has to learn and speak both the languages. Lets stop fighting over supremacy of one language over the other probably tolkappiyar and pannini would be laughing at all of us while they sip a coffee togather in the heaven!!!! 0
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says:
May 22, 2012 at 9:15 am
! 0
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senthil says:
May 23, 2012 at 10:25 am
Pls remember, that Sanskrit was NEVER a spoken language in any part of india and in any part of our history.. Sanskrit is the language for learning and knowledge.. Prakrutham is the spoken language.. 0
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Samarth says:
July 18, 2012 at 4:59 pm
Sanskrit was the medium of learning and the spoken language in earlier yugas, not in this Kaliyuga. 0
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Swami says:
July 18, 2012 at 11:13 pm
what samarth says is differernt than senthil. Can you please comment? Have u seen Adi shankaracharya movie?FIrst movie in sanskrit. its good. they speak sanskrit in the entire movie. Not sure if this how people spoke in sanskrit or was it just a script like senthil
says. 0
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Mani says:
July 18, 2012 at 3:00 pm
Why athkaram,sangham and other words used in sanskrit went from tamil. If their is no aryan dravidian theory what is t he reason for light and dark color of people india. If you are intrested read book Journey of man. 0
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Swami says:
July 18, 2012 at 11:04 pm
Aryan dravidian theory is already debunked . Aryan just means Arya (a noble man) . Just like Ayya in tamil. even the westerners agree that this theory is false. Many people at many point in time tried to claim themselves as Aryans. They thought its their pride to be called themselves as an Aryan. Once entire eurpoean had some kind of proud history. Germans did had any. So they were desperately looking for their grand past. they took india and claimed they are the true aryans and indians are the corrupted aryans. Now how to prove indians are corrupted? Well !! Portray Difference as exploitation. 1) North is white, South is black. 2) North has different language family. South has totally different language family. 3) North has different life style. South has different life style 4) North has different worshipping style. South has different worshipping style Now how to protray difference as exploitation? Think how did indians handled all these differences? Sanskrit and spirituality was the bridge connecting the difference. Indians were different in many ways but was common in spiritual ethos/seeking (not beleiving). SO if this is broken, the bridge is broken and people will start seeing the difference rather than the brdge. Then they can portray every difference as exploitation. So start celebrating local language and trash sanskrit. Start demonizing sanskrit and its worshipping modes. Didnt that happen?
After the germans, its british who re used the word aryan. Not for their superiority but to create chaos in the country which is required for them to capture the country. Dark and white is just pigmentation and exposure to sun. South is more close to equator. South has a difference calender system which uses just sun. Because suns movement alone is enough to calculate. Being close to equator comparitively to north, suns movement doesnt change too drastically. Where as in north, suns movement alone is not suffifient. They need sun + moon in combination to do astrology. Like this there are geographical reasons for differences. Please come out of the propaganda. 0
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Samarth says:
July 19, 2012 at 3:28 pm
Swami That is precisely happening today. Now that Sanskrit has been replace by English. It is not just the north south divide. There are other divides as well featuring West, East & north east as well. But I must say that northies are the number one in the Hate list everywhere May be because of the aggresive, roudy behavior, or the flawed superiroty complex of skin-color/physique or due to the antihindi wave. The blame lies on both sides. I belong to UP and live in Noida. Went to Calcutta for 3 months in 2004. I see the bias versus North Indians in their eyes. It has also to do with the seeds of divisions that were sown in British era. Now that the whole of urban India is having a Link language (even though as pathetic and unscientific as English) the sense of unity is definitely increasing than it was say 35-40 yrs ago. I hope that with advent of Hindi as national language (later upgraded to Sanskrit) it will be many folds. Also I feel that all the states should have a policy of teaching one mother-language other than that spoken in the state. Say for example, hindi is taught as national language, Tamil as state language and a third language (depending upon the schools choice and availability of teachers). So a Tamil Nadu school can have Tamil, Hindi, and say Malyalam, Kannada, Assamese Or Gujrati/marathi. Similarly in Hindi speaking belt, There should be two more language that the school should offer one from either of west, south or east. And not only that, the schools of one region should invite the schools of another region teaching their
language so that the children across regions meet each other. Just imagine how much the our country wud be integrated if these language barriers were eased out. PS I have a Nepali channel in my cable coming to my home. That language is again so similar to hindi/Sanskrit. It apalls me why are such a divided civilization !!! 0
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Swami says:
July 18, 2012 at 11:09 pm
I have not read the Journey of man. I think its written by a westerner. So without said, he is already having his own western world view which thinks that humans sequentialy evolved and spread from one place to another\? I just have one question regarding this. Per darwin, if man came from Monkey, why should we restrict our thought by thinking only monkeys of one area became man? Why should the evolution be sequential (one geographiacl area and then another). Why not parallel in multiple areas as the same time? Both in Africa, india, indonasia? So dont go with these books.. Lets just say we dont know. that has the possibility of knowing open. Lets try to seek instead of beleving. 0
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senthil says:
July 19, 2012 at 8:34 am
There are dark skinned people even in north india.. 0

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says:
August 1, 2012 at 9:14 pm
india as a whole is a colored populace.westereners are white.africans are black. japan/china/korea are yellowish.As percent of so called fair people in TN/S.india is less likewise dark skin people in north. India is highly colour conscious in their sub conscious mind.TN is fast turning to that degree of colour sensitivity prevalent in north.dravidian
parties .DMK/DK who got political power by this very colour issue no longer accept dark colour people of their own brethern.they beleive fair colour & take them as their confidents etc. 0
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senthil says:
July 19, 2012 at 8:33 am
@samarth and @swamy, This is the confusion which most have bcoz the fundamentals of language is not understood.. samskritam means refined.. what was refined?? a language spoken by people.. and the language spoken by people is called prakrutam.. so spoken language is called prakrutham, which can be flexibly used according to peoples convenience.. prakrutham is mainly for people to people communication.. but when it comes to knowledge, we need to document either in writing or in memory, and that needs unambigous grammar and vocabulary.. for that, sanmskritam should have been developed.. If we come out of european racial mindset we can understand these concepts.. 0
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Samarth says:
July 19, 2012 at 3:03 pm
@Senthil First of all, I request u to not label everything/everybody whose views are not congruent to urs as European/Western. There are different versions in bharat of the same concept as well. Let me elaborate what I meant on Sanskrit. The Dharma stood on four feet of Yagya, Tapa, Dana, Jap in Satiyuga. Yagya involved chanting Sanskrit shlokas/mantras and it was performed extensively even in villages of India. Prakrit became spoken language when gradually the legs of dharma started disappearing (viz., Yagya, Tapa, Dana). Only Japa remained in Kaliyuga in order to attain Moksha. The whole texts of our history were written in Sanskrit. Even in Bhagwad Geeta, the medium of instruction is Sanskrit (not prakrit) when Shri Krishna delivers it to Arjuna on a battefield which is niether a center of learning nor a gurukul. In Urban centers in Bharat, pre-Manahbharat era, Sanskrit was widely
spoken as well (may be not so much in villages & tribal areas where learning Sanskrit would require a Gurukul and so Prakrit was developed to ease Sanskrit). The villages were defintely Sanskrit aware in those eras. Post Mahabharat era, I agree with u. /** Meaning of the word SANSKRIT & Is SANSKRIT only a medium of instruction of learning & education OR IS IT MORE ??? **/ Senthil says meaning of the word Sanskrit is refined (ie. Prakrit refined). But this is one of the definitions. It also means made ready, prepared (of what ?). Before I explain this, let us know what is the history of Sanskrit. Sanskrit was not developed as a language by any human or for that matter even any Devi/Devata like Bramha/Vishnu/Shiva. When the Bramhand (Universes) in which we live, the other ones inside us and those beyond us were getting created some SOUNDS WERE GETTING RESONATED WITH THEIR CREATIONS WHICH WE NOW KNOW AS BEEJ(seed) MANTRAS. Aum (Om) was the most powerful of them. These mantras were not created by the God himself, they were discovered by him. Later on, when Lord Bramha came into being from Lord Vishnu, the first words that came out of Lord Vishnu were in Sanskrit (Chatur-shloki Bhagwat). Later on , the rishis, sanyasis, munis, discovered the various combination of those sounds coupled with others could HAVE CERTAIN EFFECTS ON THE LAWS/GOVERNING OF NATURE. They came to be known as Mantras. So SANSKRIT IS NOT JUST A LANGUAGE. IT IS THE CODED LANGUAGE of the Universe, WHICH CAN INVOKE THE SHAKTIS OF THIS UNIVERSES TO DO CERTAIN ACTIONS ( Just like the computers have 0 & 1 as the binary language over which they function and everything else derives or extends from it. At the base of everything, it is the binary language of 0 & 1). And it is a perfect mathematical language the order of words dont change the meaning. No other language has the same capabilities as sanskrit not even any of our spoken languages can match it (Why ?). If someone were to recite a shloka from Bhagwad Geeta in Sanskrit as compared to any other language, the effect would be different. This language is directly connected to the Spiritual energies of the Universe (& Connects as well !!). SO a shlokas chanted in Sanskrit would start connecting the person to that Satvik energy, which may happen only partially in our Indian languages (which derive from Sanskrit) & may not at all in case of foreign languages (if they use translated words). Hence the medium of instruction and learning was most suitable using Sanskrit, it would not only be a perfect language but it would create an atmosphere of Satvik energies in the Centers of learning. Now coming back to the meaning of Sanskrit The word also means prepared/ made ready of Sanskaras which Sanskaras ? Sanatana Sanskaras which means that the language has embedded Sanatana Laws as its contents in the form of Shlokas and Mantras & is a prepared medium to communicate and invoke actions in the realm of Sanatana
Laws (and Satvik Energies) which are latent in this Universe. This definition is unbound by any Desham, kalam or for that matter any Universe as well. Sanskrit as refinement of Prakrit is definition limited to Desham & Kalam & is incomplete, just scratching the surface. PS I dont know whether u belong to those people who believe that Mahabharata or Ramayana, Puranas/Upnishads as mythology. BUT IF u do, then all i can say is that ur behavior is similar to that of a child going to a maths class and telling the teacher that u believe in Algebra and Geometry but dont believe in Calculus & Statistics. U cant pick and chose contents from the history as well as the time lines of history and disregard others & the original sources. I come across this behavior in numerous Hindus where Macaulized education has brainwashed their mind and they are prepared to believe in history post Mahabharata era and regard pre-eras as myths. Rajeev Malhotra is one living example. He has done tremendous work but he also says that he is not going to believe in any the stuff (which is not seen today, like the use of Brahmastra OR Arjuna going to Swarga in his human body) unless a scientific proof of it is given to him. Then why believe the other content as well ?? 0
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Swami says:
July 20, 2012 at 12:43 am
/*Rajeev Malhotra is one living example. He has done tremendous work but he also says that he is not going to believe in any the stuff (which is not seen today, like the use of Brahmastra OR Arjuna going to Swarga in his human body) unless a scientific proof of it is given to him. Then why believe the other content as well ?? */ When you do not know something for sure, you say i beleive so. So beleif itself is a limited tool. Its better to work on what we have and what we can justify right now as a starting point. It is in this context that Rajiv malhotra doesnt want to discuss on brahmastra. Lets say he says indians had brahmastra during mahabharata. What next? How to justify. How to prove it? Since we lost the technology to prove it, or since the current generation of people are not aware of it, he atleast wants to take the contributions of indians in the past that can be tangibily verified in todays context. That is the context. We need to start with this starter that he has given and then explore further and may be in future we will figure out a way to say that indians had brahmastras in the past. On the other side, he is just being scientifically diplomatic with the present day western minded scientists.
In the cycle of who is going to bell the cat, atleast we have him trying to do that to kick start dharma understanding into indian minds. His contribution is a phenominal. So Please do not discard that. 0
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Pothy says:
We know the Indus civilzation exists because the ruins are there, the undeciphered inscriptions are extant, and the figurines of such as the famous dancing girl are in museums. We can date, catalog, do comparative analysis, and so forth. For the Ramayana and Mahabharatas and the Puranas the historical proofs are if present not discovered yet. And what somtimes is claiimed as real proofs is in the realm of much dispute by experts. This is not to say these stories are false but further research is needed. Where do you even begin to dig if that is what it takes to come up with artefacts and items from the great myths? I would like to see suggestions 0
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senthil says:
@pothy, you are right.. only 5 % of the Sarasvathi River Civilization has been excavated.. the recent Dholavira excavation has indicated settlements dating back to 10,000 BC.. The first thing we need to do is to discard the western timeline of history they are all based on the christian bible story.. 0
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says:
August 1, 2012 at 9:35 pm
most of the stuff of samarth are amateurish.we must not underestimate very serious&truthful western scientists.their research into the languages are quite original as their other scientific discoveries they had given to the world without which we simply
cannot exist now.The basic problem is how to siff throit. Sanskri is a language for writing.prakirutham is a spoken one.even now to some extent there is a miniscule population in shimoga district of karnataka speak this but commonly mistaken as sanskrit.becoz of kannada influences it would ve got corrupted now as TN telugus speak their tongue with lot of Tamil words mixed up.The original is brahmi,karoshti/tamil brahmi?/prakrutham/grantham/denagaram/sanskrit. 0
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vyas says:
//but more than 60% words are tamil words in sanskrit. and also the name of sanskrit is also derived from tamil word samaikkappatta krantham. samai >> samas . keeri >. > keeruthal > > krantha > > krutham it forms like samaskrutham. samai means cook or recorrect krantham means keeri elutha paduthal. thus the way tamil is greatest than sanskrit.// Why dont you say that all languages in the world descended only from Tamil like Devaneya Paavaanar said . I can also show you thousands of words like this in Tamil with roots in sanskrit the same way you represented the word Sanskrit, so its not the right method to prove it. Be a Tamil lover but not a Tamil Chauvinist. 0
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Ganesan says:
Vanakam Its clear that history says Tamil civilization is oldest of so far found. Indus valley civilization researchers found Tamil language in the ruins.Here is the whole link http://www.tamilguardian.com/article.asp?articleid=256 Archaeological & Geological Evidence A discovery made by a team of marine archaeologists from Indias National Institute of Oceanography (NIO) in March 1991 has begun to bring about a seachange. Working the off-shore of Tarangambadi-Poompuhar coast in Tamilnadu near Nagapattinam, a research vessel equipped with side-scan sonar, identified a man-made object and described it as a horse shoe shaped structure. In 1993, it was examined again and NIOs diver archaeologists reported that the U-shaped structure lies at a depth of 23 metres and about 5 kms offshore. The significance of that discovery is that it is a much older structure to any discovered earlier. Subsequent explorations carried out by Graham Hancock and
his team, who working in association with Dr Glen Milne, a specialist in glacioisotacy and glaciation induced sea-level change, were able to show that areas at 23 metres depth would have submerged about 11,000 years before the present time or 9,000 BC. The historical significance of that fact is that it makes the Ushaped structure 6,000 years older than the first monumental architecture of Egypt or of ancient Sumer or Mesopotamia (in present day Iraq) dated around 3,000 BC and traditionally regarded as the oldest civilisations of antiquity. The Durham geologists led by Dr. Glen Milne have shown in their maps that South India between 17,000-7,000 years ago extended southward below Cape Comorin (Kanya Kumari) incorporating present day Ilankai/ Sri Lanka. It had an enhanced offshore running all the way to the Equator. The maps portray the region as no history or culture is supposed to have known it. The much larger Tamil homeland of thousands of years ago as described in the Kumari Kandam tradition takes shape. It supports the opening of the Kumari Kandam flood tradition set in the remote pre-historic period of 12,000 10,000 years ago. The inundation specialists confirm that between 12,000-10,000 years ago Peninsular Indias coastlines would have been bigger than what they are today before they were swallowed up by the rising seas at the end of the Last Ice Age. With its description of submerged cities and lost lands, the Kumari Kandam tradition predicted that pre-historic ruins more than 11,000 years old should lie underwater at depths and locations off Tamilnadus coast. The NIOs discovery and Dr. Milnes calculations now appear to confirm the accuracy of that prediction. At that period of time, Ilankai/ Sri Lanka was part and parcel of South India. It is, however, in the inundation map for 10,600 years ago as seen that the island to the south of Kanya Kumari had disappeared to a dot, and the Maldives further ravaged. But more importantly, a neck of sea is seen separating Tuticorin in South India from Mannar in what is now Ilankai/ Sri Lanka. It is however in the map for 6,900 years ago that the separation of Ilankai/ Sri Lanka from the South Indian mainland is complete as it is today. Ilankai/ Sri Lankas separate existence as an island, so it seems, began 6,900 years ago or circa 4,900 BC. 0
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Swami says:
@Ganesan, /* Ilankai/ Sri Lankas separate existence as an island, so it seems, began 6,900 years ago or circa 4,900 BC. */ In your timeline, when did ramayana take place? Atleast ilangai was not linked to india during ramayana time frame because of which a bridge
had to be built to cross the ocean. based on the above timeline, when was mahabharata period? as you know these 2 are higly disputed with respected to timelines and there are many interpretations and versions and some even claim to be simulated through computer astronimical software that tracks the movements of astronomical stars. who knows 0
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senthil says:
The entire historical timeline has to be discarded, right from alexanders age.. the recent excavations in dholavera and many other Sarasvathi River Civilization sites, its very clear that most of the history books of western university would be obsolete.. 0
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dravidianstates says:
Dear Bro!! In the same context, Remains of the ancient city of Dwaraka have been discovered and it dated 10,000 BC..The most interesting part here is that all the Geographical claims in Sanskrit language have been proved scientifically (Eg. Kurukshetra, Dwaraka, Sethu Bridge) But Sangam Literature speaks about Kumari Kandam( Lemuria) which have been proved false by the geologist after analyzing the late movements 0
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says:
@,etc ; 18-4-12/9.41PM &26-4-12/5.34PM posts . / . . ./ .60% ./. 2 3.
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Aditya says:
I am A Tamilian but I am learning Sanskrit for over 15 years. In fact I have even Blogged about the comparison. Following is my observation. I request the author of the article as well as other readers to consider my points. OLDEST RECORD OF TAMIL: Agattiyam is the oldest work in tamil which was written around 300-350 BC. This was written in Sangam era . Agattiyam was written by Agasthiyar. Agasthiyar is one of the Saptha Rishis mentioned in the vedas. He is also the author of Agathiya Samhita (Written in sanskrit) Aga means Mountian and Asthi means Thrower (Best example is Brahma Asthram in Mahabaratha) in sanskrit. Now the oldest author of Tamil is also the author of a sanskrit work and also has a Sanskrit Name. He is beleived to be sent by Lord Shiva , Who is also been described in Rudram and Chamakam in the vedas. So he is a Vedic Sage who travelled south. Moreover Comparison of Ayurveda and Siddha medicine can solve this doubt because Siddha has been heavily borrowed from Ayurveda. TOLKAPPIYAM Now we have to analyze the meanings of few words. Tolkappiyam- Kappiyam is originated from Kavyam which is a Sanskrit word. This is because there are many instances of the usage of the Word Kavyam in sanskrit literature much before.So the argument is Tolkappiyam being the oldest work in Tamil itself has a sanskrit word in it Sangam- This is used to denote the earliest period in Tamil History .Now Sangam is a derivative from sanskrit word Sangaha which means community or union. The best example for this is TriveniSangam in Allahabad where the 3 rivers meet and the place where the Khumbamela is Held. Moreover the Buddhists were organized into Sangha .So again here tamil is using a sanskrit word. STRUCTURE OF ALPHABETS It is interesting to note that Both sanskrit and Tamil have the Alphabets in an
order . It starts form Ah , Aahand goes to ooh. And the consonants also start with Ka and goes on. The Same applies to every Indian Language as well.The only Letter unique to tamil is Zha . Now we have to see the origin of this structure in Tamil and Sanskrit. The oldest date for the origin of tamil is around 300 BC(start of Sangam Era) . There have been many studies by Indian Scholars on dating the vedas. They have consistently been around 3000 BC .Though the vedas are known as Aanadhi (Without start or end) , they were Compiled FOR KALI YUGA around 3000 BC by Veda Vyvasa. Now If we see the Mahabaratha , the study on Astronomical positions of the Mahabaratha War pointed the time of war as 3102 BC. Since there was a character named Vyasa in Mahabaratha, this can also support this argument. Further more According to the puranas , The Kali Yuga also started around this period 3000 BC (ie.After the kurukshetra war) Reference for my work :- Research paper ->There is no scientific basis for aryan invasion theory By T.R.S Prasanna Published in Current Science Vol 103 No.2 ,25th July 2012 Link: http://www.currentscience.ac.in/php/toc.php?vol=103&issue=02 This link has proofs to show the vedas date around 3000 BC. Conclusion:Sanskrit is more than 2500 years older than Tamil. This gives a lot of room for evolution. And the Sanskrit Alphabets are much older than Tamil. ANALYSIS OF TAMIL WORKS If we analyze any Tamil work, they have always been inspired from sanskrit Literature. Examples are, i)Sage Agasthya was mentioned in the puranas (Written before the Sangam Era) but the Tamil claim him as one of the first person to speak Tamil. Ayurveda from him developed into Siddha medicine. ii)Shiva(Mentioned in Vedas- Rudram) is adopted by the Tamils. Now let us Take an example from the very first verse of The Thirukurral. Akara Mudhala Ezhuththellaam Aadhi Bagavan Mudhatre Ulaku Here Aadhi-Aadhi means First in Sanskrit (used in the Rig Veda) Bhagavan means God in Sanskrit (used in Mahabaratham and various other works) Ulaku-Loka means World in sanskrit (Used in multiple Places) dominance of Tamil Language which was never True. My argument is that why didnt these people mention about Indus before the Westerners ?
But If we take Sanskrit for Example, Dwaraka has been discovered under water and Ram Sethu was also discovered as recorded in the Sanskrit Literary works. For example, even the party name Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam the world Dravida itself is a Sanskrit word, which means south. Udaya Suryan are Sanskrit words. Karunanidhi, Ramasamy, (Ala)giri, Anna(durai) are all Sanskrit names. Even in the word Maa-nadu, the first syllable Maa is a Sanskrit based word (that is, Maha) If we take the Shiva Puja, which is a integral part of any Smarta or Shaivites Pooja, Under the Neivedya Mantra, Pushpanjilam PradasyamiGruhaana karunanidhae I Neelakanta Virupaaksham vaamaardha girijaa Prabho II Umamaheshwaraaya Namaha Pushpaanjilim Samar payami I Mantrapushpam suvarna pushpam samarpayaami II here, we can see the usage of the words Karunanidhi and Giri. So The DK claims can be rubbished from the very fact that their leaders name itself is Sanskrit. Periyars original name Ramaswami is also sanskrit .The worst part is that their organizations name Dravid is used in Valmiks Ramayanam , yet another Sanskrit Work. The fact is that Khamba ramayana is the inspiration of the original work of Valimiks Ramayana in Sanskrit. P.S I REQUEST EVERYONE TO COMMENT IN ENGLISH BECAUSE IT WOULD BE EASY FOR THE NON-TAMILIANS TO READ YOUR COMMENTS. Sanskrit and Tamil is way superior to English. 1
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senthil says:
@Aditya Excellent compilation of your points.. thanks for your comment.. i agree with all your points. There is difference between language and dialect.. for eg, greek and latin are languages, whereas english is a dialect.. similarly, in india, samskrutham and prakrutham denotes the language and dialect (correct me if i am wrong).. prakrutham means, that which is spoken by people as per their convenience..
Samskrutham means, refined, sophisticated language, with concrete grammar.. In tamil, the spoken tamil is called IyaRRamil and do not confine to any grammar.. whereas, seyyul, has concrete grammar to be followed.. Sanskrit is NOT a spoken language, but language of science and knowledge.. prakrutham is the spoken form of our language.. i have challenged so many people to give me proof, whether brahmins spoke sanskrit in any part of india.. till now no one replied.. I have one clarification.. Tholkappiar is a disciple of agasthiar.. his work Tolkappiyam is the first grammar available to us.. in that he says, he is refining an already existing one (i have stated this in this article).. In such case, can we conclude that tamil could have existed even before agasthiar? 0
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Aditya says:
The main reason why Panini (The great Sanskrit Grammarian) developed the classical Sanskrit (Presently available sanskrit for studying) is because the Vedic Sanskrit (Sanskrit in Vedic period) was too complex for normal people to converse in. So he developed Grammatic rules for sanskrit . Yes you are right Prakrit is a dialect . Actually Prakritam is a Style of Sanskrit .It shares a lot of grammatical resemblance and the follows the Devanagari Script. It is somewhat the Slang version of Sanskrit because it did not follow the grammatical rules and was mostly used by the Jainsand Buddhist .It is like Madras Tamil and the actual Tamil. Both have the same script but the pronunciation and grammatical rules Vary. The Sandhi of Samskrithim is (Sam+Kritham) and that of Prakritham is (Pa+Kritham) Tolkappiyam is the oldest Tamil work available to us, But Agattiyam is the oldest Tamil work. The only logical conclusion can be is that Tolkappiyar , being the disciple of Agattiyar , was inspired to write Tolkappiyam seeing the work of his Guru (i.e agattiyam) Conclusion is -He means to say that he is trying to refine
Agattiyam. And your blog is real thought provoking .Kudos to that! 0

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. says:
@; /// . . . /// 100. . 2500 ./ / ./ / 100. . . , .
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P. Vinothkumar says:
March 10, 2013 at 9:16 pm
@Aditya what kind of analysis, wow, this is what we called pakka research, I am very proud of your idiotic linguistic research can u please tell the entomology of the word samskritham?
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senthil says:
March 11, 2013 at 10:36 am
@vinothkumar, is a tamil word? 0

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. says:
March 14, 2013 at 9:41 am
@();1) . 2) . 3) . . 4) ,,, , . / ? 0
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senthil says:
March 14, 2013 at 4:51 pm
well said.. we can judge from the sounds of the letters in tamil.. for eg, tamil has only one Ka.. but there are many words with different sounds of ka like ga etc.. the word is a good example.. 0
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vyas says:
March 15, 2013 at 2:26 pm
Senthil One small correction. In tamil the pronunciation of ka vs ga and other such syllables is dependent upon the place of the syllable inside the word and also the context. For eg. the word in Tamil cannot be pronounced as Garam, as there is no such word in Tamil. 0
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senthil says:
March 17, 2013 at 12:40 am
@vyas, Is what you said part of tamil grammar? 0

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vyas says:
March 19, 2013 at 1:37 am
//Is what you said part of tamil grammar?// I dont know if its part of Tamil grammar or not but this information was revealed by a Tamil scholar found in the below video. This is a video series of about 20-30 parts and he mentions this fact in one of that. In order to pin point the exact video I have watch the entire series again. Ill let you know about it in a weeks time. Meanwhile if you have time watch the entire series yourself.
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March 20, 2013 at 1:22 pm
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vyas says:
March 26, 2013 at 9:18 pm
The problem with people like you and the whole Tamil chauvinist crowd is that they use linguistics as a weapon to put forward their approach. This was a technique popularized by the missionaries.and the DK idiots blindly followed it. The era of linguistics and linguists are gone and already modern scientific methods are disproving every aspect of research based on linguistics. Even the concocted Aryan Invasion theory has a fair share of linguistic contribution to it. Unless TamilNadu comes out of the maya of language chauvinism theyll always consider themselves as a superior race and credit Tamil for almost everything that happened in India. God only should save TamilNadu. 0
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senthil says:
March 23, 2013 at 7:31 pm
How do you say, there is no civilization in srilanka before 3000 years? 0

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mohan says:
April 18, 2013 at 1:39 pm
senthil you are doing a excellent job and though some of the visitors deviating the subject, you stick on to the subject and enlightening the people. 1
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satheeshjm says:
April 23, 2013 at 6:49 pm
Hi the link for the Tholkappiyam PDF is no longer live This is the new link. http://www.projectmadurai.org/pm_etexts/pdf/pm0100.pdf 0
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Rao says:
April 25, 2013 at 5:46 am
Sanskrit is considered Deva Bhasha considering this as a moot point it can be very well said that it was not a manushya Bhasha,Not spoken by men at any point of time in human history. Evidence in epigraphy of sanskrit is available from 3rd century AD and that of Prakrit (the first in Non-Tamil Script)is available from 3 century BC. Sanskrit emphasise on aspirators or encryption of Orders of Consonents, which could be a late development. Verbal tradition of sanskrit is far more emphasised to trace the hoary antiquity. Sanskrit inscriptions are not available at places other than indian geography. The Harappans and Sumerians had script expositions 3000 years before the first epigraph inscriptions in sanskrit is traced.
Sanskrit was not a spoken language of even the elite in the current or 1000 years before now or even before that. Sanskrit has enormous literature compilation of esotecrics written down in the past 1000 years. The Sanskrit Ruling seems to be a myth among masses since if it were then it would have a language speaker tradition continually,It is perceived that it confines to esoterics and within the temples and spiritual discourses and to a limited extent in kings courts and shasanas. Sanskrit can at best be considered equal to a high-level programming language developed by natural language speakers specially those who spoke Tamil to codify and maintain secrecy and serenity of esoteric communication and that is the reason you find a lot of equivalent words in both Sanskrit and Tamil. 0
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Sanskirt Roots says:

May 3, 2013 at 11:43 am
We have created a list of 700 sanskrit words which are used on a regular basis in day-to-day Tamil language in both spoken and written forms. We are in the process of updating this list. The file is available at the following address :http://sanskritroots.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/sanskritwordsintamil_v2.pdf The list contains the equivalent of such words in Hindi and share similar phonetics. We are in the process of updating the corresponding words in Bengali, Gujarati, Marati etc., The objective behind the above effort is to enable Tamil students to understand, how they are already familiar with words which are used in other languages ,as well. With a bit of extra effort, they can clearly master many other Indian languages. This would make them multi-lingual, which is a major draw back for anybody trying to pursue a carrer opportunity outside of Tamilnadu. Also the site http://www.sanskritroots.com contains opinions of learned scholars on Sanskrit like Dr. Abdulkalam, Swami Vivekananda, Mahatma Gandhi and others. 0
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N Y Murali says:
June 1, 2013 at 4:09 pm
The fact is that Tamil civilization owes it to sage Agastiya and all the Tamil Literature call him kurimuni meaning short rishi. His story tells that he has suppressed the pride of Vindhya Hill which could mean that he was able to scale
the heights of the hilly region unlike his predecessors. It also states that he released the River Cauveri water from his Kamndala which means that he channelized the waters of the river and formed the Tamil Civilization by cultivating Rice etc. There were earlier Tamil grammar books the first being Agathiyam by Sage Agasthiya himself. The reason for Tholkappiyam is because Agathiyam was lost. As far as PMK leader Ramadass trying to Tamilify the English or Sanskrit words, He must first change his name first as his name itself is not pure Tamil bu his standards. The word Dass means Dasa in Sanskrit meaning Servant and in Tamil Adimai. So Ramadass name should be changed as Rama Adimai. And he is also called as Doctor based on his profession. If he is so attached to Tamil then he should leave his Doctor Profession and go to the hills and collect Herbs! 0
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senthil says:
June 1, 2013 at 5:11 pm
Dr. Ramadass atleast has some conviction towards something he believes as pure tamil.. The problem is that he is NOT linguistics.. he has to realise that core of language is verbs, and nouns (names of objects) are sourced from many languages including sanskrit.. there is separate tamil gramatical rules for incorporating such outside words.. For eg: > this is right.. bcoz soap is a noune.. name of an object.. > this is wrong.. bcoz, english verb itself is used.. There needs an indigenous research on our own linguistics.. 0
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vyas says:
June 1, 2013 at 7:32 pm
// Yes. There were sharp criticisms in Religious commentaries and that is a different story altogether and even there also the criticisms were only on Theology and not on money or materialism. I think the time has come that this Aryan- Dravidian Race theory has to be buried altogether.// Murali This entire linguistic based identity has to be buried for sure. The Westerners taught us to look at our history by projecting language as the main element, which itself is completely flawed. Our society was never divided based
on language or linguistics. Back in those days ones inam was never associated with language but was based on ones own kulam or jaathi. Language is an assumed identity and cannot represent one appropriately. By eliminating the language and looking at our history will give us tremendous opportunities to understand our real history. There is no point in arguing if Sanskrit came from Tamil or Tamil came from Sanskrit. We have to get past the language and look at this issue. 0
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Yajna says:
June 2, 2013 at 1:19 am
Dear Senthil, Does Tolkappiyam have any mention about Brahmanas or the caste system? I really wish to read the work,but i dont know Tamil,and i cant find any English translation online. Thanks and regards, Yajna. 0
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senthil says:
June 2, 2013 at 7:25 am
Yes.. It clearly mentions about four varnas, and also about vedas.. 0
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Yajna says:
June 2, 2013 at 11:34 am
Dear Senthil, Thank you for your reply.I,however,would like to get the verses which refers to Varnas and Brahmins,as i would like to educate few Periyarites/Ambedkarites I would have found them myself,but unfortunately,i dont know Tamil. Best regards, Yajna.
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vyas says:
June 2, 2013 at 12:10 pm
Senthil Im still confused why Tholkkaappiyam used the word Marai for Vedas. When there have been words directly imported in Tamil from Sanskrit back in those days, why would anyone use the word Marai for Vedas? What urged them to do so? In fact this is one of the arguments the opponents are using for blatantly denying that Naanmarai is referring to the four Vedas. 0
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senthil says:
June 2, 2013 at 2:47 pm
/** Senthil Im still confused why Tholkkaappiyam used the word Marai for Vedas **/ the term Marai is the only tamil word used for denoting vedas, in many of sangam literature.. since vedas are kept secret and it the meaning was hidden, the term marai would have been used.. (but this is just speculation).. There are enough evidencs to prove that Nanmarai is veda.. ignore these tamil rants.. 0
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Yajna says:
June 2, 2013 at 6:21 pm
Marai means Veda.Thirukural is often called as Tamizh Marai meaning Tamil Veda Thiruvalluvar also mentions about Aryan Gods like Indra and Vishnu in his work,even then, xtian missionaries are converting him as a xtian influenced by st.thomas..oh well. Regards, Yajna. 0
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Velu says:
July 1, 2013 at 2:37 pm
My Dear brothers and sisters! It is hard to explain everything here, so Please use Google engine or You tube to search get the fair information Ancient Tamil :> 1. Lemuria continent (Ancient kingdom of Tamil) 2. Tamil Brahmi ( Origin of Tamil Script) 3. Sangam Tamil literature (Origin and richness of Tamil) 4. Tamil Siddhargal (Ancient Tamil Scholars/Saints) 5. Angkor Wat (Big Temple built during Tamils dynasty in Cambodia, still exist) 6. Tamil Temples ( Build for worship in ancient period) 7. Chola dynasty ( Great Tamil king ruled about all Asia) Modern Tamil:> 8. Modern Tamil literature (Tamil Movies, songs, etc.. at present Tamilnadu) 9. Tamil diaspora ( Tamil Origin people at present living around 30 countries) 10. List of countries where Tamil is an official language (at present ~ 9 countries ) I hope it is useful, I know only little about Sanskrit, it was almost dead language because of less population and it was used in ancient time in temples for prayer. 0
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Kumar S. Marimuthu says:

July 7, 2013 at 11:32 pm
Arguments do not show the truth! If you are really sincere about finding out the truth please put aside all your prejudices and try seeing the truth! After spending so much time reading all the comments and opinions, I am very much disappointed! Intellectualism is missing! 0
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vizhuthooralan says:
July 12, 2013 at 3:44 pm
after reading all these comments i am still perplexed at the question why did Tholkappiar or anyone who wrote the first verse of Tholkaappiam use the word Marai instead of the commonly known word Veda? all arguments above propose some hypotheses ! But nature, as always in its best form, conceals the answer and
keeps it with the writer! By the way, was the writer a man or woman or a neuter (this raises an interesting question of whats the old Tamil/Sanskrit word to represent a neuter? My guess is that both languages were well-developed and should not have any problem in denoting a neuter by an appropriate word ! ) ? Let the arguments continue . 0
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Pingback: Tamil Society as existed 2000 years ago - Page 50 - Historum - History Forums
Anantha Rao says:

August 12, 2013 at 11:34 pm
A plain comparison of Sanskrit with languages of south shows all follow foot steps of Sanskrit including Tamil. In fact, Kannada & Telugu shows highest similarity with Sanskrit technically in terms of Alphabets & Grammar. Let us start with Alphabets, there is almost 100% match with Kannada & Telugu while it is almost similar in case of Tamil & Malayalam, just script are different. Then when it comes to grammar like Swara, Vyanjana, Sandhi, Gender, Kala, Chanda(Chandassu), etc. Kannada & Telugu has great similarity including same words usage as Sanskrit. In this area, Tamil has some similarity. Thus it clearly shows, all languages are derived from Sanskrit at roots but each have different scripts & new words that differ from Sanskrit. The very comparison of Sanskrit alphabets with all Indian languages(including southern languages) shows use of same logic(a,aa, e, ee, etc based on syllable) unlike English. Hence few proponents of Aryan & Dravidian theory by west(within India too) have conveniently not reported similarity at roots. Thus it is difficult to prove that so called Dravidian languages of south are independent when their very source of language (alphabets & grammar) is derived from Sanskrit. This Dravidian-Aryan theory is more political than logical or technical. Time has come of us to review internally whole scheme of things surrounding Dravidian-Aryan divide proposed by certain linguist of west. Now we know many languages hence we need to do simple thinking ourselves before blindly accepting new theory invented only in first half of eighteenth century. Hope people of India & in particular from south think a new & get rid of this mass hypnotism of Dravidian & Aryan. The very word Darvida is Sanskrit! 0
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vyas says:
August 13, 2013 at 11:11 am
Mr. Rao Has anyone conducted any detailed study on Caldwells work Dravida mozhigalin oppilakkanam? The DK morons are using this as the base for their propaganda. If you have links pointing to rebuttals on this research pls share it with us.
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Surya Ramachandran says:

August 14, 2013 at 4:18 pm
It is reported that Kannada, Malayalam and Telugu had to expand their syallables from Dravidian language. All of them so that Sanskrit words can be acoomodated. 0
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July 7, 2010 at 3:55 pm

It would be interesting to read the following link: http://www.mayyam.com/talk/showthread.php?2979-Tamil-selderliness-to-worldlanguages&highlight=tamil+elder+sanskrit+Gandhi 0

Dr.Vijaya Rajiva says:

brings in various words categorized as tisaichol. 1

thousand years is just ignorance in Linguistics. 0

I am right you are wrong Best Of Luck. 0

Simply fantastic Dissection Kedarnathji. 0

Amrione Guy says:

interpretations firmly. Regards RAM 0

July 16, 2010 at 7:54 pm

namste Sr Ram, you wrote @ Kedar

. . 2 . . . . . . . ? . 1. : 2. : 3. ; 4. : 5. ; 6. ; 7. ; 8. 2 4 9. 4 4 4 ; 10. 3 3 3 3 ; 11. 2 2 2 2 2 ; 12. ; 13. ; 14 ( 14 ) 0

@ Adhigaprasangi Very Interesting Story,I liked thoroughly. Ram 0

Vinodh Rajan says:

Achyuthan Sundarrajan says:

Nice argument.. I hope a healthy debate is continued 0

Panaiyadi Chozhan says:

Panaiyadi Chozhan says:

Other related words include: aRai speak, say; kari call; 0

Panaiyadi Chozhan says:

Panaiyadi Chozhan says:

Panaiyadi Chozhan says:

Panaiyadi Chozhan says:

Panaiyadi Chozhan says:

Hope, i am making sense here.. 0

Panaiyadi Chozhan says:

Bala Murugan says:

Singpore Saravana says:

Panaiyadi Chozhan says:

Panaiyadi Chozhan says:

Panaiyadi Chozhan says:

and read this link too.. http://2ndlook.wordpress.com/2009/02/17/what-happenedto-alexanders-loot-from-india/ 0

Panaiyadi Chozhan says:

Pingback: Tamil regions in sangam era | Senthilrajas blog

all the best Senthil. great topic 0

ya tharkam should not turn into kutharkam 0

Panaiyadi Chozhan says:

Panaiyadi Chozhan says:

Pls also consider this link http://ancientindians.wordpress.com/2009/10/08/karikalachola-and-the-ikshvakus-tiruvalangadu-copper-plates-ofhttp://psenthilraja.wordpress.com/2010/07/06/influence-of-sanskrit-over-tamil/[31-08-2013 18:54:09]