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A Battle Unending: The
Vietnam War and Agent
Orange
While the Vietnam War ended decades
ago, its effects continue to linger on.
Agent Orange haunts the lives of the
people it has touched.
Nguyen Nguc Phuong is 33 years of age and a confident, articulate public speaker comfortable on a podium in front of
an audience. He is resourceful and self-motivated, as seen in his decision to leave school at 16 and relocate to Vietnams
largest city, Ho Chi Minh City, to learn to be a mechanic and an electrician.
Nguyen later returned to his hometown of Danang, one of Vietnams touristy cities, and opened his own repair shop.
However, after seeing the impact of Agent Orange a defoliant sprayed by the U.S. military during the Vietnam War to
destroy the crops and jungle upon which the Viet Cong relied for food and cover he decided he wanted to volunteer his
time to help the children born mentally or physically handicapped due to the herbicides tragic and grotesque effects.
I wanted to become a teacher to do something for them, he says, pointing out to over 40 children and teenagers at the
Danang Peace Village a center run by the Danang Association for Victims of Agent Orange/Dioxin to care for children
and teenagers affected by Agent Orange.
But Nguyens story is not typical of a thirty-something bored with a day-job and seeking a socially-responsible career
break.
By Simon Roughneen
November 13, 2012
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43 Comments

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Nguyen Nguc Phuongs father fought in central and southern Vietnam for 10 years up to the end of the Vietnam War in
1975, and sometime, somewhere along the way, came in contact with some of the 76 million liters of Agent Orange that
was sprayed on the Vietnamese countryside up.
As a result, Nguyen is only 95 centimeters (a little over 3 feet) tall and weighs in at a meager 20 kilograms
(approximately 44 pounds). My sister is the same size like me he says. When I was born I weighed only 800 grams
and was less than 20cm long.
I was very angry because I did not know when I was younger why I was left like this. I wanted, I still want, to be a
normal person but I know I am not in a good condition, says Nguyen. The salary is very little here but I dont care, I
know the center doesnt have much money, he says. But I want to help the other kids who are worse off than I am and
help them have a better future.
Some of Nguyens colleagues share similar stories. Now 24, Hoang Kim Nguyen lifts a blouse sleeve to show blotchy,
discolored arms. I dont know why I have this, she says, but my mother worked at Danang airport during the war so I
guess it is from Agent Orange.
Nguyen Thi Hein, Hoangs boss and manager of the center, says that she was quite aggressive as a teenager, but has
mellowed into one of the centers best teachers, despite a careful, often inaudible way of speaking. I was bullied,
teased, when I was younger, Hoang says. Not because of my arms, but because of this, she adds, lifting off a jawline
length wig to reveal a few patchy tufts of hair instead of the straight brown or black sheen a Vietnamese woman her age
should have.
She has come a long way, she feels, but a traumatic adolescence has scarred her mentally. It was difficult for me to go
outside when I was a teenager, and I am still shy in many ways, she concedes. But I got my diploma and I am happy to
be here at the center, where she teaches art, embroidery and sewing.
Asked if she is angry like Nguyen at the impact it seems Agent Orange has had on her life, Hoang pauses for a
couple of seconds before replying that I know American people were affected too, soldiers in the war and their children
next in the U.S.
For parents of affected children, the center provides invaluable support. Pang Thu Dan Thanh has two children, one son in
kindergarten who seems perfectly healthy, she says. Beside her sits Nguyen Hu Thao Vi, 16, who best-buddy-style rests
a hand on her mothers shoulder midway through the interview.
The teenager was born with Down Syndrome, another apparent result of the spraying of Agent Orange.
My husband was not a Viet Cong , but he did work in the areas where spraying took place, says mother Pang Thu Dan
Thanh.
Raising Nguyen Hu Thao Vi has been difficult, her mother concedes. She could not even sit up by herself until she was
four years of age and now at 16 she still cannot speak much other than a few simple words.
A few miles away from the center, Danangs glossy new international airport sits around four hundred yards from the site
of the old Danang airbase, where American troops mixed-up and stored the toxic jungle spray. The codename Agent
Orange came from the yellowy amber sheen seen on foliage along the Ho Chi Minh trail after a dousing by U.S. aircraft
and riverboats.
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and riverboats.
The site of the old airbase has dioxin contamination up to 350 times higher than the trigger levels at which international
recommendations for action should kick in. Given rare access to the U.S. $43 million dollar clean-up, I was told by one of
the U.S. government subcontractors on the job that the clean-up will take 54 months to complete, pointing to an adjacent
concrete slab covering one of the areas where the liquid was mixed and returning aircraft hosed down.
The contractor standing in the driving coastal rain and barely-audible over the din of the blue Vietnam Airlines jet taxiing
a stones throw away on the new Danang airport runaway asked not to be identified as he was not authorized to discuss
sensitive material, but said that the contaminated soil would be excavated to a temporary mound 8 meters high by 70
meters wide by 100 meters long, and in turn baked to over 600 degrees Fahrenheit, a procedure intended to break down
the dioxin into carbon dioxide, water and chloride.
The Danang clean-up is a joint project of the Vietnamese Defense Ministry and the United States Agency for International
Development (USAID) that began in August of this year, after Secretary of State Hillary Clinton announced that her
government would assist with the clean-up during a visit to Hanoi in the summer of 2010, amid tensions between Vietnam
and China over the South China Sea, known as the East Sea in Vietnam, in turn prompting closer ties between the U.S. and
Vietnam.
Chuck Searcy came back to Vietnam 17 years ago, 3 years before the U.S. and Vietnam normalized relations . He
eventually stayed on in the one-time enemy terrain to work for the Veterans Memorial Fund, which cleans up unexploded
ordnances from the war in central Vietnam. Speaking in Hanoi over a morning coffee, not far from the old Hanoi Hilton
where Republican Senator John McCain was detained for five years as a prisoner of war, he recalls in sonorous Morgan
Freeman-like tones that when Agent Orange was used in Vietnam we were told it was harmless, that it was just a
pesticide, and we believed that.
For decades the U.S. government disputed the link between Agent Orange and birth defects in Vietnamese children, but
that opposition appears to have relented, the Vietnam War veteran tells me.
Now things are changing, he says, acknowledging that the U.S. government finally is doing the right thing, maybe not
enough, but at least it is helping American veterans. We ought to be doing the same thing in cooperation with the
Vietnamese people. That is late in the day, but is finally starting now too.
Washingtons Asia Pivot will be in full focus this week, as newly-reelected President Obama visits Southeast Asia ,
with stops in Thailand, Burma and Cambodia. While in Cambodia Obama will participate in the East Asia Summit, where
he will meet leaders from China, Japan, Russia, South Korea, Australia as well as his Southeast Asian counterparts.
For its part, the Vietnamese government provides a monthly stipend of about U.S. $17 to more than 200,000 Vietnamese
who are believed to be affected by the toxic herbicides. Although the program costs the Vietnamese government around
U.S. $40 million annually, the stipend isnt much for those receiving it, and doesnt go far.
We would not be able to manage having him at home, says Nguyen Thu Thon, mother of Nguyen Viet Hai, age 24,
who stays at the center. We cannot afford to hire care for him and we need to work ourselves to make ends meet, and he
cannot be left alone by himself.
Currently based in southeast Asia, Simon Roughneen has written for Financial Times, Los Angeles Times, Christian Science
Monitor, South China Morning Post, Asia Times, The Irrawaddy, ISN, Sunday Business Post and others. He is a radio
The Diplomats Steve Finch recently spoke to
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political crisis and what this means for the
government and Thaksin.
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America, al-Jazeera.
Topics Features Environment Southeast Asia Vietnam
Tags Agent Orange History Indo-China War Vietnam War
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[...] http://thediplomat.com/2012/11/13/a-war-unending-the-vietnam-war-and-
agent-orange/ Nguyen Hu Thao Vi with her mother in Danang (Photo: Simon
Roughneen) [...]
A victorious power never gets charged for war crimes. Germany was carpet
bombed, Japan was nuked, and Vietnam got the most bombs dropped and of
course, the Agent Orange. Might is right !
Please do not forget the genocides the White conducted on the natives in the
North, Central and South Americas, and Australia; Inhuman slave trades and
atrocities done to the African; and other crimes against humanity the White
carried out on the Asians during the colonization and imperial conquests in Asia.

Anyhow the White insists history is irrelevant, by gone is by gone, past has
nothing to do with the present, therefore even though they were murderers, drug
dealers and executors of genocide on hapless American and Australian natives,
Africans and Asians, they still can claim moral high ground and lecture all
others on democracy and human rights to no end.

No one will ever hear that the International Court of Justice will indict those
criminals on behalf of the countless victims, Indeed might is right,

FWIW, the US government has recognized diseases and birth defects afflicting
US veterans' and their children, as being caused by Agent Orange. However, as
of yet, the US Government has not extended the same recognition to
Vietnamese victims.
The list is here.
http://www.publichealth.va.gov/exposures/agentorange/diseases.asp
Obviously, the question needs to be asked, why would it affect only Americans
and not Vietnamese as well?
That's right, might is right . just like the golden rule "he who has the gold
makes the rule" The US has both the might and the gold, for now.
@vic,
I wonder whether you have realized that you are contradicting yourself. Indeed,
concerning the atrocities during Vietnam War (the second), the US was not the
A Battle Unending: The Vietnam War and Agent Orange - The Diplomat | simonroughneen.com
November 13, 2012 at 23:23
vic
November 14, 2012 at 06:20
John Chan
November 14, 2012 at 08:36
Leonard R.
November 14, 2012 at 10:11
Schminner
November 14, 2012 at 14:42
nirvana
November 14, 2012 at 19:27
PDFmyURL.com
victorious party. Concerning the bombing during WWII, German Nazi and
Imperial Japan were not the victims. Without Hiroshima and Nagasaki sacrifice
of innocents, god knows how many years and how many millions of other
innocent victims have to be added after Aug 1945, not only in Japan but also in
China and South-East Asia. Recall that Hirohito narrowly escaped a coup d'tat
when he decided that Japan should surrender.

The ultimate proof of might is definitely not right is that, everywhere in the
world, at the end of the day, the simple voice of the people can defeat
dictatorship, police repression, fire squads and can repel tanks in public squares
(such as in Moscow). If might was right, you would not be blogging here on
Agent Orange. You would still be a Red Guard reciting Mao's red book and
breaking Chinese ancient culture.

@Leonard,
There is hypocrisy in the US government and Department of Justice. But the
answer to the question why the US service men got indemnified quickly and not
the Vietnamese is simply a question of scale of the affected population. For the
Vietnamese nobody can give an upper bound on the estimate of the cost to
indemnify them, i.e. down to how many generations, how to quantify the
prejudices,

But I think President Obama should rule on the matter and should decide that the
US government must officially recognize the responsibility of this war crime.
Then he will truly deserve his Nobel Prize.
It is now 51 years since the US Forces began the spraying of Agent Orange on
Southern Vietnam. 51 years is long enough for the US Government and the 36
Us Chemical Companies who made AO to accept their responsibilities and pay
compensation to the Vietnamese (nearly four million) and their families.
www.lenaldis.co.uk
Hegemony is cyclical. Most great powers of the past are no more. China, India,
Portugal, Dutch, British and so forth. The British ruled India for 200 years and
more. Russia imploded and communism collapsed and rightly so! The United
States has been in power for 5 decades and now is facing many more
challenges. The idea to have a strong military for commerce is failing badly.
Capitalism in the United States is no more being eroded by monopolistic
corporations and large interested groups. The legacy from wars has created a
large population of veterans who need welfare and are discontent.
Since Obama came to power, the idea that the US is special in the 21st century
is being revisited-there is nothing exceptional from a country that makes millions
out of the war machinery-the Industrial Military Complex. If employment, is a
Len Aldis
November 14, 2012 at 22:06
chandran
November 14, 2012 at 22:58
PDFmyURL.com
problem in the USA now, ending wars would be difficult for a country that
provides millions of citizens with jobs in this business. If you end wars less
jobs especially in Washington, MD and VA.
Change is coming-rather than the world accommodates the United States who
always wanted to be different-the USA is being encompassed with the world-
the identity of the country is being changed within. Elections and domestic
policy is now dictated (at least) by Hispanics and Asians. A child who learns
from the history of the US will know that war is never good-and as time passes,
we will probably the USA held accountable for using disproportionate force on
civilians. No longer will there not be a remedy for Vietnamese families in US
courts for agent orange, Bhopal victims must be able to sue DOW Chemicals in
the US-hopefully the panel of judges at the Supreme court will change to one
that supports justice and democracy.
Beware that time may come soon if the drone strikes are not ended, hopefully
the USA realizes this-that the time is up-Americans will feel poverty-its a flat
world
@nirvana
US Government must take responsibility for war crimes? You are dreaming the
impossible dream. It is in the DNA of America as a nation to inflict casualties
on a massive scale (think genocide). Kissinger expanded the war from Vietnam
to Cambodia and Laos. America inflicted as much damage as possible short of
using nuclear weapons. It withdrew only because it could not totally win a
conventional war. The Nixon-Mao meeting included an agreement for Chinese
support of American withdrawal from Vietnam (How would you prevent the last
50,000 troops from being massacred by a hostile native population?). America
was victorious in the sense that the American homeland was never attacked
whereas Vietnam was virtually totally wrecked. The only way for a country to
be insured against this sort of American aggression is to be able to have the
capacity to wreck the American homeland similarly. The 9/11 attack on the
American homeland was a "blow-back" for crimes committed in the Middle
East.

Yes, I sympathize with the Viets who were affected.
Now, Vic and JC how is it relevant to rant again about the "whites"? I really do
not get it. The Chinese are just as guilty JC, remember Shih Huang Ti and the
Chinese practice of burying the concubines together with their masters? I could
go on and on but it would be pointless.
You need to consider the times and what was the norms, you really can't expect
to use today's standards for what Shih Huang Ti did can you? Same goes with
vic
November 15, 2012 at 02:23
Cyrus
November 15, 2012 at 02:36
PDFmyURL.com
your "white" mans rant.
@Cyrus
It can be said that since the days of recorded history, no nation or people could
match the level of American brutality. The nuking of Japanese cities is the apex
of brutality. As might is right, America never gets charged with war crimes. For
the Buddhist victims of Vietnam, they suffered in silence the effects of Agent
Orange. The Bible dictates "and God says, revenge is Mine and Mine alone".
However, mere mortals said, "I shall avenge my brothers' death" while they
were plunging their airplanes on 9/11. A historical statement was made by the
desperados on 9/11 that a victor can suffer from a blow-back. Question
when and how will the blow-back from the nuking of Japanese cities come
about ? Can the spirit of Zen prevail or does violence begets violence, that
never ending cycle of brutality.
@Cyrus,
Promoting by gone is by gone theory? And laying the groundwork to
exonerate the White who has been bombing and killing innocents nonstop since
WWII?

Any bad behaviour should be denounced regardless when it happens, Chinese is
not afraid of exposing bad behaviours by documenting them; Chinese history
books are littered with those crimes and bad behaviours. Instead of praising
Chinese honesty and courage, you use those tragedies and miseries to
demonize China meanwhile you are glossing over the Whites ugly past, it
makes one wonder where your moral bearing is.
Canadian bloggers should urge their government to set the example by
compensating the AO victims in Vietnam for being a supplier of AO to the US
forces in Vietnam.

The so called pacifist and democratic Japan denies atrocities and crimes it
committed during the WWII, its courts threw out cases that ex-comfort women
and forced laborers sued the Japanese government for apology and
compensation.

USA wrote Japanese constitution and laws, therefore by association, the USA
will behave like Japan, the USA courts will behave like Japanese courts,
expecting a remedy for Vietnamese families in US courts for the harm caused
by Agent Orange will meet the same fate as those ex-comfort women and
vic
November 15, 2012 at 08:26
John Chan
November 15, 2012 at 10:55
John Chan
November 15, 2012 at 11:22
John Chan
November 15, 2012 at 11:51
PDFmyURL.com
forced laborers expecting justice from the Japanese courts, the chance is zero,
zip, nada, zilch, nix, the answer is keep dreaming, get out of here, get a life,

@vic,
To quote two great men of our time: "the audacity of hope" and "I am not the
only dreamer. One day the world will be one".

Concerning the Nixon-Mao deal, it was not so much about safety of the US
army withdrawal. Nixon agreed that Mao can keep his sphere of influence
(North Vietnam and Laos) provided Mao help Nixon to bring down world
communism (=the Soviet, that Mao called the Hegemonist), which Mao did. In
fact Mao was not happy of Vietnam reunification, because it was a reunification
outside of his sphere of influence.
Funny how some racist chinese bloggers are always whining and complaining
about the whites but last time I checked CCP still covers up and whitewashes its
dirty past where it starved 30 million of its own people and brutally killed its
own citizens in tianamen.

Seems like these Chinese bloggers would be better served complaining against
their own government so that it does not repeat its crimes against humanity!!!

(Putting things in perspective)
@Jean-Paul,
To give justice to the CCP, they did admit that Mao was wrong but only 30% so.
Yes, yes, not approximately, exactly 30% is the official number.

Do the math: 1% of Mao's miscalculation is 1 Million deaths, mostly Chinese.
To be compared with the 200 thousands total casualties (exclusively Japanese)
of Hiroshima and Nagasaki nuclear bombs, which was for ending a war that, if
prolonged by another couple of years could claim as many as the civilian
casualties in the Korean war (2.5 millions). And that would not be American
civilians but Chinese, Filipinos, Vietnamese, Malaysian, Indonesian, Burmese,
and Japanese
Whoa. I agree that the American war machine has a history of going to war too
much, but to say that they are the apex of brutality is going too far. For starters,
they're not Genghis Khan who piled up heads to make pyramids. Nor are they
Nazis who methodically genocided Jews, Gypsies, and other undesirables.
nirvana
November 15, 2012 at 15:01
Jean-Paul
November 15, 2012 at 23:30
nirvana
November 16, 2012 at 02:59
Errol
November 16, 2012 at 05:47
PDFmyURL.com
They're not Imperial Japanese who took no prisoners.

As for the atomic bombs used on Japan, can you actually say that everyone
knew about long-term effects of radiation back then? None. Coz for all the
Americans new, it was only a new weapon that packed a wallop. Do you know
the options they had back then? Invade Japan thru the Kanto plains and suffer
horrendous losses due to bushido. Or use the 'superbombs' and try to bluff Japan
into surrendering. Guess what. The bluff worked. Had the Allies invaded Japan,
you would see far more casualties than Hiroshima and Nagasaki. You would see
the entire civilian population of Japan's biggest island being used by the military
for banzai charges. Would you rather choose that option?
Wait, I'm confused with your statement.

Any bad behaviour should be denounced regardless when it happens, Chinese is
not afraid of exposing bad behaviours by documenting them; Chinese history
books are littered with those crimes and bad behaviours. Instead of praising
Chinese honesty and courage, you use those tragedies and miseries to demonize
China meanwhile you are glossing over the Whites ugly past, it makes one
wonder where your moral bearing is.

Whose wrongdoings are you talking about? Can't be the CPC coz the CPC
won't allow anything that criticizes it to be printed. So you must mean the West.
Guess what. Even Western literature is rife with the list of the West's own
wrongdoings.

Help me understand though. How are Chinese records of the West's failings
used to demonize China? Coz usually what I read is the West's records of
China's failings that is used to demonize China. Or the CPC actually. You can't
blame the ordinary Chinese for something he or she has no control
over whatsoever.
I agree John. Trouble is, Canada is in this deeper than being a mere supplier of
Agent Orange. Canada is implicated all the way back to the invention of AO
and, as if this werent enough, poisoned hundreds of thousands of its own
citizens while perfecting it for use during the American War (Vietnam War) at
Canadian Forces Base Gagetown. Compensating the Vietnamese would have to
be part of a larger package of confession. How on earth can Ottawa possibly
admit any of this?
As a Canadian victim of AO myself, let me tell you what I think would happen if
Ottawa attempted the unthinkable and tried to own up to its very real moral
obligations to the Vietnamese. First, the uncompensated Canadian victims of AO
would feel a heightened sense of betrayal because we, in many cases, were
Errol
November 16, 2012 at 05:52
Kelly Porter Franklin
November 16, 2012 at 08:57
PDFmyURL.com
contaminated before or at least concurrently along with the Vietnamese (AO was
sprayed on Gagetown 1956-1964, Agent White spraying commenced in 1965).
Second, the ordinary Canadian citizen would reject the idea by a wide margin
out of simple stinginess. Canadians dont even support Canadians on this issue;
weve been blogging about this for seven years now and have utterly failed to
ignite a compassionate response from our countrymen (see
http://www.globalnews.ca/sister+of+agent+orange+victim+says+battle+for+recognition+far+from+over/6442753130/story.html
)
Further, Canadian pundits would argue that, if Canada must compensate Vietnam,
so too should Australia
http://directaction.org.au/issue34/australias_role_in_agent_orange_crime ;
Czechoslovakia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spolana ; New Zealand
http://paritutuiwd.hostzi.com/?q=node/9 ; and God knows where else. And of
course theyd be right. But who can prove any of these countries knew they
were poisoning Vietnam by supplying these chemicals? The USAs ultimate
fallback position is, We never meant to hurt you, while Canada and others
maintain that AO is non-toxic to start with, possibly because we hosed our own
countrysides with more 2,4-D/2,4,5-T than was ever dreamt of being sprayed
on Vietnam.
I think a fellow Canadian survivor of Gagetowns position on this matter might
be a way forward that stands a chance; that we bloggers worldwide begin to
petition our respective governments and the UN to treat the Vietnamese as sort
of the victims of a hit and run. We have ample proof that governments and
corporations will not act humanely, as with the victims of a natural disaster, so
lets say it doesnt matter who hit them as long as the world does the right thing
and helps the injured. Never mind the mathematical impossibility of all those
supremely toxic substances just happening to be components of the so-called
herbicides, and never mind what some people call justice either, lets just act like
humans and help the Vietnamese.
(If anyone else has a better idea of how to penetrate the seemingly impervious
barricade of BS erected by the dioxin-denying countries, lets hear it.)
@Jean-Paul,
Reminding the ugly past of the White is to provide constructive criticism, so that
they will not behave like hypocrites without bound.

As the gospel said Do not judge others, so that God will not judge you , for
God will judge you in the same way you judge others, and will apply to you the
same rules you apply to others. Why, then, do you look at the speck in your
brothers eye and pay no attention to the log in your own eye? How dare you
say to your brother, Please, let me take that speck out of your eye, when you
have a log in your own eye? You hypocrite! Matthew 7.

The killing in French Revolution was way more barbaric and evil than in Great
John Chan
November 16, 2012 at 13:11
PDFmyURL.com
Leap Forward; and French behaviour in Algeria was fit for indictment of crime
against humanity by the World Court. If French are not complaining against their
own nation, French bloggers are definitely not qualified to point finger to
anyone here.

"Secretary of State Hillary Clinton announced that her government would assist
with the clean-up during a visit to Hanoi in the summer of 2010, amid tensions
amid tensions between Vietnam and China over the South China Sea, known as
the East Sea in Vietnam, in turn prompting closer ties between the U.S. and
Vietnam."
Well, well, after decades of absolute refusal in taking any
responsibilities whatsoever on Agent Orange, it is obvious that the little
assistance now is intended to facilitate American geopolitics and pivot into
Asia, Closer tie and friendship with Vietnam, LOL.
No doubt, America and Western press excel in propaganda with beautified
words. They fool no one except Americans.
@nirvana,
Are you saying it is OK to kill with nuclear bombs as long as you can fabricate
justification? It seems to you spreading Agent Orange on the Vietnamese is fully
justifiable too because they are commie, and to save the Filipino, Malaysian,
Indonesian from falling into Viet Congs hand.
@Errol,
Are you demonstrating the art of twisting words and fabricating facts you learnt
in the Dick Cheney School of Imperialism?

If CPC wont allow anything that criticizes it to be printed then how do you
know anything bad about them? Are you admitting that all those bad things you
say about CPC is your fabrication?
@Errol
Are you saying that the nuking of Japanese cities is a blessing in disguise? That
is very twisted logic, but it does make the Americans happy. The Americans
could stop at the gates without having to enter to slaughter. Only barbarians
could do that, a whole scale slaughter of civilians in two cities. By the way, the
effects of gamma rays were known at the time of the test blast at Los Alamos.
globallc
November 16, 2012 at 13:27
John Chan
November 16, 2012 at 13:43
John Chan
November 16, 2012 at 14:01
vic
November 16, 2012 at 15:21
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If the Americans could deny that they never dropped Agent Orange on the
Vietnamese, and could shift the blame of this heinous crime against humanity on
to the Russians or the Chinese, they certainly would. Recall that during the
Korean war of the 1950's, the Americans dropped germ bombs on the Koreans
(a weapon they obtained from the surrendered Japanese doctors of death in
WW2 responsible for half a million deaths by bacteria in China 1931-1945)
causing outbreaks of bubonic plague and anthrax. There were independent
observers (Joseph Needlam amongst them) attesting to these disease outbreaks,
but the US continue to deny their war crime up to this day. US started
giving limited assistance to clean up contaminated areas ONLY because they
want Vietnam to be on their side to help contain China. It is NOT a humanitarian
act nor an admission of guilt.
@JC. Wow. You accuse me of being Cheney's student. Even when I don't know
much about the guy aside from the fact that he was a VP who happened to shoot
his fellow hunter out on a trip. Going back to your question, we know about the
CPC's failings not because of the CPC's industriousness but because of the
courage of ordinary people to bring the facts to light. You follow the CPC
claims that nothing bad happened back in Tiananmen Square back in 1989 and
say it's only a fabrication of the West. Yet Chinese themselves remember the
event. If it was only a propaganda attempt by the West, how come the CPC puts
such a tight noose everytime it's the TSM' anniversary? There was also when
the CPC tried to suppress the news about the first bullet train crash and the
resulting fatalities. No news about commemorating the dead in the major
newspapers. Also, when the Bo Xilai news was first starting, Chinese media
took a hands-off approach. Only the despised Western media paid attention at
the start. Should I go on?


@ Vic
Do I espouse nuclear use? Knowing what we all know now, no I don't. Your
suggesting that the Americans could have just stopped at Okinawa. Is i really a
viable option? The American populace, then and now, has no stomach for a long
war. For them, WW2 was only an interlude that should end quickly. Your
suggestion that the Japanese islands be besieged is not workable. Had the
Americans left, Japan would be free to send out its armies again to prolong
hostilities. So again, how should the Allies ended the Pacific war quickly?
Yes, scientists knew about the gamma rays. But doesn't that happen on the
moment of the blast itself? Oppenheimer and his crew knew about that. What
they didn't know is that radiation will stay in the blast site and the kill zone for
years on end.
vjie king
November 16, 2012 at 21:18
Errol
November 17, 2012 at 04:43
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Errol makes good points. The fact is, the US worked hard to develop the
atomic bomb before Germany could complete it's own efforts to do so. Can
you imagine what Hitler would have done with it? Once developed, our leaders
were faced with the choice of using the bomb on Japan and hopefully end the
war, or continue the island hopping campaign to the main Japanese islands.
Okinawa was a good indicator of what that would have looked like; massive
American AND Japanese casualties would have been the result. Far more
Japanese casualties than the atomic bombs were responsible for. If I was in
charge it would have been an easy decision: Let's see, drop big, powerful
bombs on a brutal, militaristic society responsible for multiple atrocities (rape
of Nanking, anyone?), hopefully ending the war in one fell swoop, OR
proceed with an invasion in which hundreds of thousands of American troops
would almost certainly be killed or wounded, not to mention the cost to the
Japanese population. Duh. So easy for you people to play the moral superiority
card 65+ years later. You forget the world had seen 7 years of unimaginable
brutality and death. My guess is that people of that period would have
overwhelmingly made the choice that would offer a quick end to the bloodshed,
even if they understood the long-term effects of the bombs.
The U.S. government does something for American victims of AO? Nope.
Approach the Veterans' Administration for help and the first things they ask are
your income, your sources of income, what property you own, and what
insurance you have.
Great post, i'm seriously tired of people giving the US so much criticism, any
other nation would have done the same at the time. It saved more lives than it
took and ended the largest bloodiest war the world had ever seen.
@Errol
The two atomic bombs dropped were done out of spite for the Japanese.
Japan's aerial and sea defenses were effectively destroyed before the nuking.
For a country made of islands, the prospect of a sea blockade meant that Japan
had to surrender. Of course, trying to storm the islands would be extremely
costly, but it was not necessary to storm the stronghold to force Japan to
surrender.
From the simple mathematical concept of exponential equation, one knew
before the test blast the half-life of radioactive materials. The test blast was to
test the technology of the trigger mechanism for the nuclear explosion of
uranium material assembled as a bomb. The theory had mathematical elegance
in its full glory.
Fedupwithstupid
November 17, 2012 at 05:32
Mack
November 17, 2012 at 09:40
Jean-Paul
November 17, 2012 at 14:56
vic
November 18, 2012 at 06:58
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@Mack
There is a disproportionate number of veteran pilots of Hercules cargo planes
(carrying Agent Orange) who died from or are still suffering from cancer. The
US government refuses to acknowledge this statistic but does its best to cover
up.
Vic wrote: "Of course, trying to storm the islands would be extremely costly,
but it was not necessary to storm the stronghold to force Japan to surrender."

You don't really know Pacific history do you?

There were Japanese soldiers holding out and still fighting the war up until the
1970s. As a child I was told a story about the area that I was in, that someone
saw some old soldiers still holding out in 1972 and so the Japanese embassy
official was sent in to yell up into the Jungle to tell them the War was over.

How long do you think they would have held on in Japan and in other parts of
Asia. The war on Saipan wasn't ended for 6 months after the dropping of the
bombs as Japanese still held on.

Maybe the Chinese need to learn some history other than their own before
telling the rest of the world 'how it is'?
@ JohnX

Unfortunately you are asking too much of these chinese posters. The only
history books they have ever read out of are the CCP approved brain-washing
school of hatred and bigotry. It seems like the CCP has really achieved its
objective of fully brainwashing its populace into believing that Japan is still a
war criminal and that the West has been bombing and killing "nonstop".

I think it will only take the effort of the international community to stop this
brainwashing from turning China into the next imperial japan.
Sometimes I think you are right.

But, I listened to the stories of those who were there and I am not willing to
simply accept the Chinese replicate the Imperial Japanese.
I feel like screaming in their faces some times.

"Don't do it, war isn't the answer".

vic
November 18, 2012 at 07:09
JohnX
November 18, 2012 at 11:06
Jean-Paul
November 19, 2012 at 02:36
JohnX
November 20, 2012 at 16:59
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But truthfully, I understand. They are ignorant, they are so full of themselves and
what Japan did to China they fail to understand that worse was done to others.
I know that story. It's not a fact, and for now, it's only speculation. Hole in the
logic is why drop it on their own forces as well? Norcoms were not the only
ones who got sick. UN forces did too. And we're talking about ground fighters
here, not just possible handlers.
"Imagine, the people"
@John Chan,
In a war like WW2, mass killing of civilians, by nuclear weapons or by any
other means CAN be justified. The 200 thousands lives that was sacrificed in
Hiroshima and Nagasaki can be justified by the saving of millions lives,
Chinese to begin with, but also other SEA population, including Japanese.
If Truman was really satan, he would have dropped the only two nuclear bombs
he had in 1945 on 2 capitals: Tokyo and Moscow.

[...] ignorance of AlwaysWrong is truly disgusting. A Battle Unending: The
Vietnam War and Agent Orange The Secret War (BOMBIES) America's war on
Laos! [...]
You've got some of your facts wrong. Specifically, the code name Agent
Orange did not come from "the yellowy amber sheen seen on foliage along the
Ho Chi Minh trail after a dousing by U.S. aircraft and riverboats." The code
name Agent Orange was used because of the orange band on the barrells that
the chemical was stored in. There were several other "Agent" chemicals used
in the war for the same purpose, known as "Rainbow Herbicides": Agent Pink,
Green, Purple, Blue, and White. They were all named this from the different
colored bands on the barrells.
I am from Vietnam, a generation born in 1970s, now turn to 40s. I understand,
in a war, each side has their own interest. For today, after 70 years of thriving
under communist regime, a major of Vietnamese recognize the true face of the
robbery. In my opinion, they have no right to claim the reopen of Orange Agent
phenomenon.
Errol
November 21, 2012 at 06:47
nirvana
November 21, 2012 at 20:07
nirvana
November 21, 2012 at 20:14
What are the chances of the U.S. and China going to war? - Shooting Sports Forum
February 25, 2013 at 22:06
Michael Owen
April 21, 2013 at 05:44
Sunny Krownd
July 30, 2013 at 15:07
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Vietnam is one of land with longest history on agriculture experience. They,
more than any one else even recent scientist, know how the wild plants can
survive and be harmed. As I usually heard they said nh c phi nh tn gc
while glairing at opponents in formal meeting. (To state that I had a very sort
time work for a Vietnamese government owned corporation). This means
making devastating to opponents family, even newly born children.
So how the orange agent, which was ejected from above the air, can any how
have a meaning affect? Not to mention, historically, Vietnamese, in general,
have regular of an animal tribe as seen in a fairy tail Tm Cm. In this tail, one
sister tortured her younger half-blood and sent back the part to the mother to eat
as a way of revenge.
Nowadays, lets see how they treat people inside the country, who are not on
their side? Especially, wealthy people who intent to emigrate?
For those American people or American, who made any agreement to recent
Vietnam government regarding orange agent: You are totally mental dullness and
are incapable of protecting and governing the humans civilizations against
savage gorilla tribe?
I, for myself and others, hope you and your politicians to call for the power of
the upper opponent class people inside Vietnam rather than a treaty for a savage
gorilla class.
I am from Vietnam, a generation born in 1970s, now turn to 40s. I understand,
in a war, each side has their own interest. For today, after 70 years of thriving
under communist regime, a major of Vietnamese recognize the true face of the
robbery. In my opinion, they have no right to claim the reopen of Orange Agent
phenomenon.
Vietnam is one of land with longest history on agriculture experience. They,
more than any one else even recent scientist, know how the wild plants can
survive and be harmed. As I usually heard they said nh c phi nh tn gc
while glairing at opponents in formal meeting. (To state that I had a very sort
time work for a Vietnamese government owned corporation). This means
making devastating to opponents family, even newly born children.
So how the orange agent, which was ejected from above the air, can any how
have a meaning affect? Not to mention, historically, Vietnamese, in general,
have regular of an animal tribe as seen in a fairy tail Tm Cm. In this tail, one
sister tortured her younger half-blood and sent back the part to the mother to eat
as a way of revenge.
Nowadays, lets see how they treat people inside the country, who are not on
Sunny Krownd
July 30, 2013 at 15:30
PDFmyURL.com
their side? Especially, wealthy people who intent to emigrate?
For those American people or American, who made any agreement to recent
Vietnam government regarding orange agent: You are totally mental dullness and
are incapable of protecting and governing the humans civilizations against
savage gorilla tribe?
I, for myself and others, hope you and your politicians to call for the power of
the upper opponent class people inside Vietnam rather than a treaty for a savage
gorilla class.
You seem to forget, the US may recognize the use of Agent Orange and its
effects on the vets and yes the children of the vets, but, the children of the vets
are NOT being taken care of. They receive no help from our government. Just a
rejection letter whenever they try to get medical help from the VA. I know that
for a fact, I have a daughter that has had 14 brain surgeries due to her fathers
exposure to AO. They keep denying her. And, we lost her father in 2011 due to
lung cancer from his exposure to AO. At least the Vietnamese govt is admitting
the problem they have there and are doing something for the victims. More than
we can say of our own government.
Nancy
November 22, 2013 at 09:12
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