14 questions to which the Buddha remained silent - NewBuddhist

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14 questions to which the Buddha remained silent

person Member
January 2012 edited January 2012 in Advanced Ideas

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The Mahayana Version To those who believe in a true findably existent me or self (bdag, Skt. atman) and a true findably

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existent universe, Buddha did not answer when they asked are the I or the self and the universe: eternal, not eternal, since they undergo gross impermanence at the time of their destruction, as both, in the sense that some beings and their environments, like the Creator Brahma and his heaven, are eternal; while all else, such as his creations, are not eternal and end at the time of their destruction, neither, since it is impossible to know? Are Is or selves and the universe: finite, infinite, both finite and infinite, in the sense that limited beings (sentient beings) are infinite in number, but the universe is finite in size, neither, since it is impossible to know? Does the I or the self of a Buddha: continue to exist after death, not continue after death, both, in the sense that the body does not continue, but the life-force (srog) does, neither? Buddha did not answer these because there is no such thing as a true findably existent me or self for either limited beings (sentient beings) or a Buddha, and no such thing as a true findably existent universe. Therefore, there can be no question whether such things are eternal or not eternal, or finite or infinite. It is like asking do rabbit-horns, turtle-hair or chicken-lips last forever or only a limited time. If Buddha said the me, and so on are eternal, these people would fall to the position of eternalism. If he said they are not eternal, they would fall to the position of nihilism, since they would not understand his answer. Therefore, it was more skillful not to specify an answer at all. To those who believe in a true findably existent body and life-force, Buddha did not answer when they asked are the body and life-force: the same entity,

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14 questions to which the Buddha remained silent - NewBuddhist

http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/13804/14-questions-to-which-the-...

totally separate and different entities? He remained silent for a similar reason, since they would only misunderstand anything he said. The Theravada Version An earlier, abbreviated list of ten unspecified points appears in the Pali canon in the Sutta of Shorter (Instructions) to Malunkya (Pali: Cula-Malunkyovada Sutta, within the The Collection of Middle-Length Discourses (Pali: Majjhima Nikaya). In this version, the monk Malunkyaputta was continuously distracted by metaphysical speculation during his meditation. In order to turn him back to his intensive meditation practice, Buddha remained silent when Malunkyaputta asked whether: the universe is eternal, the universe is not eternal, the universe is finite, the universe is infinite, after death, a Buddha continues to exist, after death, a Buddha does not continue to exist, after death, a Buddha both continues to exist and not to exist, after death, a Buddha neither continues to exist or not to exist, the body and the self are the same entity, the body and the self are totally separate and different entities. http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/sutra/level4_deepening_understanding_path /interferences/fourteen_questions_which_buddha_rem.html

Comments
Jeffrey Member
January 2012

I recall two more from the Pali Canon: the range of a person in Jhana is unknowable the powers of a buddha are unknowable (I might have the phrasing wrong, unfortunately, but it is what I recall)

driedleaf Member
January 2012

Here's a good read.

A case in point is the teaching on not-self. Many students interpret this as the Buddha's answer to two of the most frequently-asked questions in the history of serious thought: "Who am I?" and "Do I have a true self?" In the light of these questions, the teaching seems to be a no-self teaching, saying either an unqualified No: There is no self; or a qualified No: no separate self. But the one time the Buddha was asked point-blank if there is a self, he refused to answer, on the grounds that either a Yes or a No to the question would lead to extreme forms of wrong view that block the path to awakening.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/questions.html

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14 questions to which the Buddha remained silent - NewBuddhist

http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/13804/14-questions-to-which-the-...

person Member
January 2012

I recall two more from the Pali Canon: the range of a person in Jhana is unknowable the powers of a buddha are unknowable (I might have the phrasing wrong, unfortunately, but it is what I recall) Those are unconjecturables, the essay was talking about questions the Buddha didn't answer. It may be splitting hairs but while quite related they may be considered seperate things.

Jeffrey Member
January 2012

I looked up uncojecturable and it means: cannot make a guess. So the buddha said making a guess of the ^abobe two items makes a vexation when you guess.

lamaramadingdong Member
January 2012 edited January 2012

I guess; therefore I am. (I guess...)

federica Moderator
January 2012

I guess not.... or not-guess.....

federica Moderator
January 2012

"Guessing " Is different to "Just not bothering because really, it's not worth anyone's time going in to it....Let's move on, shall we...?"

genkaku Member
January 2012

As an increasingly bad Buddhist, I have a question: Gautama said certain things are imponderable, meaning, as I take it, that any answer would lead not to greater understanding but rather to more confusion. I can credit that approach. My question -- and I'm not kidding, it is a question -- is this: There are imponderable things: OK. What then, precisely, is ponderable? What is it that when discussed leads to greater understanding and less confusion? There are a lot of facile answers even I could give, but at the nitty-gritty level, the level of honesty ... well, what exactly is ponderable? A rock? A toothbrush? A winning lottery ticket? A profound philosophy? Is any of this and more like it any less imponderable than the designated imponderables? I'm not trying to suggest that a grumpy silence should be our approach to things, but I wonder if there isn't some usefulness to the old suggestion, "stop talkin' and start walkin'" Just noodling here. What do you think?

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14 questions to which the Buddha remained silent - NewBuddhist

http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/13804/14-questions-to-which-the-...

Jeffrey Member
January 2012 edited January 2012

As an increasingly bad Buddhist, I have a question: Gautama said certain things are imponderable, meaning, as I take it, that any answer would lead not to greater understanding but rather to more confusion. I can credit that approach. My question -- and I'm not kidding, it is a question -- is this: There are imponderable things: OK. What then, precisely, is ponderable? What is it that when discussed leads to greater understanding and less confusion? There are a lot of facile answers even I could give, but at the nitty-gritty level, the level of honesty ... well, what exactly is ponderable? A rock? A toothbrush? A winning lottery ticket? A profound philosophy? Is any of this and more like it any less imponderable than the designated imponderables? I'm not trying to suggest that a grumpy silence should be our approach to things, but I wonder if there isn't some usefulness to the old suggestion, "stop talkin' and start walkin'" Just noodling here. What do you think?

@genkaku, you can ponder while you are doing an art. For example you ponder what word in a poem. It's kind of spontaneous but I guess it depends what you dilineate 'ponder' as. In dharma teachings you ponder the meaning of the teaching you heard. Hearing, pondering, and meditation are all one. When one happens all three do. The nature of mind is clarity. It is fused with openness and sensitivity. Clarity is the samadhis we come to with the problem we are thinking about. This can be a mathematical problem or accepting some change in our life. On the buddhist path often we discover things that are frightening. For example we may see that others happiness is our responsibility. This results in a painful sensitivity because we are off-kilter (dukkha). And that is when we may close down back into our cacoon of ego... Ok I'm regurgitating teachings in the lineage of Trungpa haha... You've been around a long time! Now you tell me Incidentally opening is 'the walk' in my opinion.

genkaku Member
January 2012

@Jeffrey -- When I asked him who the teacher was, my Zen teacher once said to me, "Except for me, everything is the teacher." And The Zen teacher Obaku/Huang Po once stood before his assembled monks and said, "There is no such thing as a Zen teacher." One of the monks stood up and said more or less, "But master, how can you say such a thing when clearly you are standing here before us and teaching." And Huang Po replied, "I said there was no such thing as a Zen teacher. I did not say there was no such thing as Zen." I imagine any of us might ponder about such things -- or even call them imponderable -- but in the end, would it create more understanding or more confusion? I don't know, but just at the moment, I need to get some sleep.

Jeffrey Member
January 2012

The Zen teacher Obaku/Huang Po once stood before his assembled monks and said, "There is no such thing as a Zen teacher." One of the monks stood up and said more or less, "But master, how can you say such a thing when clearly you are standing here before us and teaching." And Huang Po replied, "I said there was no such thing as a Zen teacher. I did not say there was no

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14 questions to which the Buddha remained silent - NewBuddhist

http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/13804/14-questions-to-which-the-...

such thing as Zen." Like it. When we don't know is the best time for insight to bubble up..

Jeffrey Member
January 2012

@genkaku, The teaching by Obaku is good but is also in denial of some things. For example why is it that Obaku is always speaking wisdom? Why is 'zen' coming from his mind and not from the confused students? I thought of that as I questioned Tibetan Buddhism tradition of honoring the teacher. The reason the teacher is honored is to provide a good connection with the student. It is believed that a student who opens to the lineage can better open to the dharma. As my teacher's husband said "ego doesn't cut its own throat". Sometimes we do even small things in fellowship. I might do another sitting as I think of my sanghamates and get inspired. I might see the example of the masters who have gone before and be very grateful such that I get confidence that 'rubs off'.

LeonBasin Member
January 2012

One of my favorite threads!

Thank you!

genkaku Member
January 2012 edited January 2012

I might see the example of the masters who have gone before and be very grateful such that I get confidence that 'rubs off'. @jeffrey -- I too (literally... honest injun) have wept with gratitude at those who came before. The kindness seemed so vast as to stopper my mouth ... but not my tears of gratitude. OK ... thank you very much! And then the matter comes to the fore: Is weeping and gratitude and imitative effort the whole story? Is this any way to repay what is owed, to flower as those who went before might have suggested or wished? I'm not trying to be dismissive or coldly above the fray. But as a serious question worth investigating: Is weeping and gratitude and imitative effort the whole story? Ducking such a question is a mistake, I'd say. But what do I know?

Jeffrey Member
January 2012

Well gratitude and effort are good in their own right

genkaku Member
January 2012

Well gratitude and effort are good in their own right :) @jeffrey -- Sure. A good start. My question is, where the rubber hits the road, are they really enough to repay that for which anyone might be grateful?

Jeffrey Member
January 2012

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http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/13804/14-questions-to-which-the-...

Well it's not a matter of payment.. It's a matter of Indra's net. All beings (particles too) mirror eachother in the net of the great universe. The awakened activity of beings is the buddhas samadhi and within the fabric of the net is the path to awaken. It is evident that connections to awakened beings are powerful.

Iktomi Member
January 2012

It is evident that connections to awakened beings are powerful. The other side of that coin is that connections to unawakened beings are also powerful.

federica Moderator
January 2012

But not in the same way.

zenff Member
January 2012 edited January 2012

Pondering is open and inconclusive. The way I understand the word, its not knowing the final truth about the subject. If Im correct about that, pondering is a good thing. Ponder away. Dont stop pondering. I mean, we often suffer because of things we know. And if we only dared to ponder them question them that would be liberation. In Buddhism the idea of not asking some questions fortunately is not prompted by dogma. The reason for the suggestion, to not put too much energy in such questions, is their lack of practical purpose. Ponder (think, question) with the right purpose; with the goal of liberation in mind; so that it will not reinforce our fixed ideas but so that it will lead to dropping body and mind. And this talk of gratitude is such a parrot-thing. Everyone is so grateful towards the teachers; why? Have you ever listened to what the teacher said? Did you hear anything new? Or was it all just clearer - in the first stupid book you read about Buddhism? When I did a full retreat-schedule at home; all by myself, I noticed the same things happening to me as in an organized retreat or sesshin. But in the sesshin I was so sure it all had to do with the inspiration of the teacher and the people around me. Its the meditation; its the simple teachings we've known for ages. They do the trick. The teacher is just a facilitator.

Vastmind Member
January 2012

@person....Gratitude for posting this. Pondering is one thing. Answering all the time, is another. The OP is about the fact that Buddha remained silent on some things and why. It's been a few moons since I had seen this lesson, so It was refreshing to be reminded that Buddha would not want me to answer everything. Good message for a discussion forum! Buddha's advice still holds water today.

SpinyNorman2 Member
January 2012 edited January 2012

Gautama said certain things are imponderable, meaning, as I take it, that any answer would lead not to greater understanding but rather to more confusion. I can credit that approach. Yes, that's how it seems to me. Though I wonder if the Buddha did explain these things to other enlightened Arahants...

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14 questions to which the Buddha remained silent - NewBuddhist

http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/13804/14-questions-to-which-the-...

Though the Buddha wouldn't have needed to explain it to another enlightened being..

SpinyNorman2 Member
January 2012

Everyone is so grateful towards the teachers; why? For pointing us in the right direction?

zenff Member
January 2012

Everyone is so grateful towards the teachers; why? For pointing us in the right direction? Okay. I never said they are completely useless.

Tendzin9198 Member
February 2012

In reference to the comment 14 times when Buddha never responded to the question 1. In most cases if you look in previous conversation where he did respond, you will find the answer to the question there. It is often a matter of going back and paying attention to what he already said. 2. In the Lankavatara Sutra page 110 it clearly states The Tathagata had not uttered a word in answer or in discourse during his life-time between his Enlightenment and the Nirvana. The idea here is do not cling to words. For dharma naira ca disito bhagavata pratyatmavedyo yatah or translated. The truth has indeed never been preached by Buddha, seeing that one has to realise it within oneself. Words should instead be treated like the reflection of the moon in water as far as they are related in meaning. The reflection is there, though the moon itself has not entered into the water, nor is it to be considered standing in relation to the water, because the latter has something in it to reflect the moon. Best not to fall into the habit of superficially taking mere words for real meaning. This is the warning of the Lankavatara: Yatharutarthabhinivesasamdhau na prapatata. Do not fall into the secret error of getting attached to the meaning as expressed in words.

conradcook Member
February 2012

As an increasingly bad Buddhist, I have a question: Gautama said certain things are imponderable, meaning, as I take it, that any answer would lead not to greater understanding but rather to more confusion. I can credit that approach. My question -- and I'm not kidding, it is a question -- is this: There are imponderable things: OK. What then, precisely, is ponderable? What is it that when discussed leads to greater understanding and less confusion? There are a lot of facile answers even I could give, but at the nitty-gritty level, the level of honesty ... well, what exactly is ponderable? A rock? A toothbrush? A winning lottery ticket? A profound philosophy? Is any of this and more like it any less imponderable than the designated imponderables? I'm not trying to suggest that a grumpy silence should be our approach to things, but I wonder if there isn't some usefulness to the old suggestion, "stop talkin' and start walkin'" Just noodling here. What do you think? I would imagine you would find an implicit answer to this in paying attention to those questions which the Buddha answered.

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Conrad.

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