A Conversation with the Elder Sophrony | PEMPTOUSIA

The abbot of the Great and Holy Monastery of Vatopedi, Archimandrite Ephraim, spoke with Elder Sophrony of blessed memory at the Holy Monastery of St. John the aptist in Esse!, En"land on #$ September %&&#. 'rom this meetin", one is str(ck by Elder Sophrony)s spirit(ality and ascetic *ision, and can appreciate the *al(e of his contrib(tion to the contemporary life of the +h(rch.

The abbot of the Great and Holy Monastery of Vatopaidi, Archimandrite Ephraim, in the "arden of the Monastery of St. John the aptist in Esse! ,%&&#- with Elder Sophrony, amon" the many pil"rims who fo(nd spirit(al comfort near the *enerable Elder Elder Sophrony: O Heavenly King and Comforter, the Spirit of truth, who art in all places and fillest all things, treasury of blessings and giver of life, come and abide in us and cleanse us of all that defileth, and save our souls, oh hou who are good!" #elcome, holy abbot$ %f during our conversation % do anything unusual, please forgive me! hese days % don&t hear or see very well! 'rchimandrite Ephraim: Considering your age, you&re doing very well! E!S!: (inety)si* years old$%&ll tell them to bring us the letter from +atopedi from our archives!

'!E!: ,es, % would li-e to see it! E!S!: ,ou -now, %&m one of your own! '!E!: his is a blessing for us! E!S!: % don&t -now! %t is a blessing for me, that they gave me leave with such willingness! 'nd circumstances have shown that .od blessed it! 'fter % left the Holy /ountain, though, % became very ill! % had a stomach ulcer and % suffered from gastrorrhagia, % was also very poor! % had to undergo a difficult operation, and they had to remove nearly my whole stomach! 0or twelve years % had great difficulty eating! % got something later on, but it&s fa-e! '!E!: %t was .od&s will, Elder, that you came here! E!S!: %&ll tell you what, abbot, %&m always afraid to say that something 1from .od2 happens to me, but it seems to me that nothing too- place according to how % imagined it, but everything came from .od! '!E!: his is what the conscience of the Church also witnesses to, it seems that it was from .od! 'nd that it is a wor- that has a history behind it! 'nd 1this monastery&s2 history has been stamped by .od, that&s what the facts witness to! E!S!: ,es, but % am only bold enough to say, 3ord have mercy on me and save me!" Only to a certain e*tent can % say that it happened according to the providence of .od! '!E!: Elder, your monastery is an oasis in the desert 1of a culture2 of materialism! E!S!: #e&re 4ust$eh5 How can % e*plain it to you$we&re than-ful to those who rule this country, and to the 6ueen, and other officials! 7ut Orthodo* life outside of .reece is difficult! (ot all of our thought: theological, ascetical$connects with the tradition of the #est, with the Catholics and 8rotestants! 7ut these are the ones who rule this place! '!E!: 0rom everything % have observed here, Elder, you live wisely! 9uring the years that you have been here, you have acted with great discernment, which is why you&ve been able to help people greatly in hidden ways! 'nd this is a very important thing for a spiritual person! E!S!: #ell$let me tell you! ,ou&re an abbot! 'nd % was, in a certain way, an abbot! 'nd % was always hung from a thread above the abyss, shouting at .od for everyone, for everything$because nothing happens by human strength! '!E!: 'nd %&m sure that you must have had many difficulties here, Elder! E!S!: Oh$it&s better not to tal- about them$! 7ut even this, to a certain e*tent, is a 6uestion for us! :ecently, % published a boo-, a spiritual autobiography 1.e Shall See Him as He /s2! '!E!: #e&ve read it, Elder! E!S!: Of what interest would a purely factual biography have been; % only recount spiritual events in this boo-! 'nd the boo- has appeared, somehow, at 4ust the right time! '!E!: #hat you have provided is a living witness! E!S!: % didn&t write a theological te*t, % only wrote down my e*perience, from fear and because %&m bold to say, 3ord have mercy, 3ord save me!" 7ut$% don&t understand$! % became ill many times with fatal sic-nesses and yet %&m still alive! % don&t -now why$ '!E!: he Church needs you, which is why .od has e*tended your life! ,our life is a miracle! #e are ama<ed at how you are still living considering the illnesses you have had and still have! /any spiritual people are ama<ed that you&re still alive! E!S!: %n =>?@ they invented a machine that can diagnose cancer and they opened me up and found that % had the worst type of cancer, and they were e*pecting me to die! here was no chance of an operation, of radiation therapy, chemotherapy, or something similar! hey left me to waste away$! Si* years have passed and %&m living in my seventh year since then, and % don&t -now how! 'fter the stomach operation % had, which completely cut up my insides, for twelve years % couldn&t eat! wo years after that, % was a bit better!

'!E!: ,our Elder, St! Silouan, wanted you to see his official canoni<ation by the Church! E!S!: 'nd % don&t -now how the providence of Christ made it happen! He placed me at the feet of my Elder! he contemporary spiritual, theological problem concerns the person 1ABCDEAF2$% lived completely by revelation! :evelation reveals that % am who % am" GE*odus H:=IJ! %f He says, % am" it means that He is a person! his is why in one of the chapters in the boo- to which % referred earlier % note that the word %" has great significance! 0or it e*presses the person! .od says, 3et Ks ma-e man in Our image, according to Our li-eness" G.enesis =:L@J! Science cannot say this! Only revelation can say this! 'nd we need to base ourselves on revelation, which the 3ord never refuted$! So, when % sent the boo- that is right behind you to His 'll Holiness 1the Ecumenical 8atriarch2, % didn&t want to write a theological te*tboo-, but simply to describe the e*perience of an Orthodo* mon-! '!E!: his boo- will be very useful, Elder! E!S!: /ay .od allow it to be so$may .od allow it to be so$ '!E!: 8eople today are confused, % would say very confused, and a contemporary, uni6ue Orthodo* witness is necessary to wa-e them up! E!S!: ,es, % say that, % say it with boldness because it is a fact! his boo- is not an intellectual contrivance, % refer to actual facts! '!E!: %t&s that fruit of divine grace! E!S!: %t&s from this perspective that % was emboldened to write! 8erhaps this autobiography will help someone find the solution to his or her own personal problem! '!E!: his boo- has also helped us on the Holy /ountain a great deal! E!S!: 1Elder Sophrony spea-s, in turn, of the translation of his boo- into /odern .ree-2$but they have translated it into the simple language, which cannot e*press subtle meanings! '!E!: %t doesn&t properly e*press them, Elder, but you need to translate it into /odern .ree- because young people don&t -now 'ncient .ree-! ,ou need to ma-e an Economy," and give the blessing for your boo- to be translated into /odern .ree- as well, because unfortunately, most young people&s language s-ills are lac-ing today! E!S!: So$if it&s in a good language already, what&s happening with it; '!E!: %t is in a good language, and we want it in this language! 7ut unfortunately, our young people today are not able to understand it! E!S!: 'nd this translation can be made now! '!E!: ,es, it can be done! E!S!: % understand, holy abbot! % wonder, though, if many people understand this boo-; '!E!: hey don&t understand it in its full depth, but they may not understand it for another reason, because of its language! %n our monastery, we have 6uite a few young mon-s! he young mon-s don&t -now .ree-, even though they are .ree-, because unfortunately in .reece various factors have managed to adulterate the .ree- language! E!S!: #hat %&m trying to say is that this boo-, by its very nature, because the providence of .od lead me to Silouan, is about spiritual practices of the very highest -ind! ' deeper, more e*treme form of asceticism does not e*ist! 'nd from this, one can discern that it is from .od! Keep your mind in hell and despair not$!" '!E!: ,our boo-, St. Silo(an the Athonite, was the reason that many people came to the Holy /ountain to become mon-s! 'nd throughout Europe, the boo- led many heterodo* to Orthodo*y!

St. Silo(an the Athonite ,%0112%&30-. E!S!: %t can also help people in :ussia, because they have completely lost the ascetic culture! Seventy years of captivity$

'!E!: ' number of :ussian bishops came to +atopedi and told us that the :ussians are pious, but because of their persecutions they don&t have an inner life! E!S!: hey lost asceticism and this can help! he :oman Catholics, as % have heard for many years, from the time % began to do philological studies and have had contact with them, have said that the Orthodo* Church cannot say that it is, the One, Holy, Catholic, and 'postolic Church!" %t isn&t catholic, it&s a part of them, how can we e*press it, they 1the Orthodo*2 are ethnic bodies who live with hatred among themselves! '!E!: Knfortunately, that&s what they say! E!S!: 'nd %$ and %$ '!E!: ,ou prove the opposite, though! E!S!: welve monastics, twelve nationalities! 8atriarch 'thenagoras the 0irst understood this idea as well! He had a great deal of e*perience, which was why % was bold and as-ed that our holy monastery be a dependency of St! 8aul&s /onastery 1on /ount 'thos2! 'nd he, through the other 'thenagoras Gof 3ondonJ, said, tell Sophrony to give me$to send me a re6uest for Stavropegic status!" '!E!: 'nd, that Stavropegic status was granted so easily, is an indication that .od wanted this monastery to be established! %t is also very encouraging that you are directly connected to the Ecumenical 8atriarchate! E!S!: $and from my writings, as some people have said, it seems that monasticism is not human, but is a call from .od! 'nd if some read this boo-, they will say that it is not mon-s who choose this path by human means, but it is a call from .od! 0rom this perspective, the boo- may be theological, the theology, that is to say, that accompanies the asceticism of the Orthodo* ascetic! his is why the references in the boo- are only made to Holy Scripture! 'nd than- you very much for your letter regarding the boo-! %&ll tell you why! 0ew people are able to understand this boo-! Even on the Holy /ountain, where Silouan lived for nearly half a century, few understood the spiritual height of the Elder! hey had such fear$but also such boldness for the love of .od5 He did not spea- openly about his spiritual condition, but hid! '!E!: hey didn&t understand him$those who lived alongside St! Silouan in the monastery did not understand him, and some spo-e ironically about him! Knfortunately, they did not understand with whom they were dealing! #hich is also why we don&t have his relics, you too- some, though he was such a great Saint! E!S!: /e, sinner that % wasMlost that is to say, he was very beneficent to me$! He was the greatest gift of divine providence that .od gave to me$ '!E!: 7ecause He -new that you would ma-e good use of it, that&s why He showed it to you! 'nd, humanly, you are the reason that St! Silouan&s legacy has shone forth! 'nd he waits for you in heaven with open arms! E!S!: % don&t have him$ '!E!: hat&s the way it is$ E!S!: #hy; #hy don&t % have him; 7ecause many have told me that they have prayed to Silouan and their re6uest was immediately fulfilled! /any times 'thonites have also e*perienced something similar, his 6uic- response to their prayers suggests to them that he was a Saint! 1One of the other mon-s from Esse* then spea-s2: Elder, may % say something; E!S!: Certainly$but as- the holy abbot! 1/on-2: ,our mon-, 0r! Silouan, was at Koutloumousiou the day after the celebration, during /atins, and a thought came into his head, % wonder if St! Silouan has the ability to pray for us;" 'nd as soon as 0r! Silouan thought this, that same moment, 0r! 'thanasius from Simonopetra came up to him and said, ,ou -now, 0r! Silouan, % have a relic of St! Silouan, which is not only fragrant, but one time it even gushed myrrh! 'nd 0r! Silouan replied to him, N.od gave me the answer almost immediately, because % was 4ust wondering if St! Silouan could hear our prayers!&" E!S!: he writing of his biography was not a human wor-! %t was his own wor-$and when the 'rchbishop of Cyprus ordained our beloved spiritual father, 0r! Oacharias, hierodeacon, he was as-ed to give a word! 'nd he prayed to Silouan!

He sat and immediately wrote, what can % tell you; Something that supersedes human measure! His answer and aid came immediately! '!E!: 'nd you, Elder, you must have had personal e*perience with the boldness of St! Silouan! E!S!: 3et me tell you, holy abbot, the story of this boldness! On the second day of 8ascha 1/onday of 7right #ee-2, in either =>HP or =>H=, an educated :ussian hermit mon-, he was an engineer, came to visit me in my cell at the /onastery of St! 8anteleimon&s! 0r! Sophrony, how will we be saved;" % loved this person! He was a very gentle and sweet person, but also very clever! % prepared him a cup of tea, gave it to him, and told him, Stand on the edge of the abyss and when you feel that it is beyond your strength, brea- off and have a cup of tea!" he ne*t day, % ran into Elder Silouan, with whom % had not yet had personal contact, but % could sense his spiritual strength! 'nd he said to me, #as 0r! +ladimir with you yesterday;" % didn&t answer him, that is, % didn&t say, yes, he was," rather % said, 8erhaps % said something wrong;" Silouan answered, (o, but what you told him was beyond his strength, beyond his measure! Come and let&s tal-!" hat&s how he called me to spea- with him! 'nd because of this phrase, Stand on the edge of the abyss and when you don&t have any more strength, rest a little and have a cup of tea," our relationship began, our spiritual connection! 'fterwards, % went to the Elder and he taught me regarding, Keep your mind in hell and despair not!" '!E!: his is great love of wisdom, Elder! E!S!: .reat love of wisdom$! 'nd you -now how % feel, holy abbot; #hat % suffer because of this; #hat did the 3ord mean with the phrase, Keep your mind in hell," which was for Silouan the pronounced removal of grace for a whole hour before the appearance of Christ; He clearly saw his eternal destruction and after this the 3ord appears without any word, He didn&t say anything$for a moment! 'nd when this happened, without any word, without words, he began to pray for all humanity and it became a state of being, not a thought, but a state of being! 'nd when the 3ord said, Keep your mind," Silouan saw Him! his is why it was only Silouan who understood the depths of the word regarding this state! 0or us self) reproach is appropriate, but not this state! 'nd the conversation, his tal- with Christ, was very, how to say it$very brief! his is what he said: % see demons!" he proud suffer from this!" 7ut how can % become humble, 3ord;" Keep your mind in hell and despair not!" 'nd then He left! '!E!: his is why, Elder, on /ount 'thos Elder Silouan and Elder Qoseph the Hesychast are regarded$ E!S!: 'h5 He was a soldier of the spirit! One of the seven greatest ascetics that % met in my life! '!E!: $as the contemporary Elders who re)introduced, through their e*periential way of life, the teaching of St! .regory 8alamas to 'thonite monasticism! E!S!: ,es, yes$% had gone two or three times to Elder Qoseph, who was still at St! 7asil&s! 9id you get to meet him; '!E!: % didn&t meet him! % wasn&t found worthy of meeting him!

E!S!: his state that Silouan e*perienced is related to the great 0athers of Egypt 1the desert fathers2! 'bba 8oimen, when they told him that he would go to the heavenly -ingdom, replied, 7elieve me brothers, where Satan was thrown, that&s where %&m going to be thrown!" '!E!: his is the spirit of the 0athers$ E!S!: 'nd 'nthony shared the thought of the shoema-er of 'le*andria, Everyone will be saved, and only % will be damned!" hese are states of spiritual struggle! '!E!: Self)reproach as a state of being! E!S!: :ight$as a state! '!E!: 's a never)ending state! E!S!: 3i-e theology! heology is the content of our prayers! 'nd an e*ample of this theology is the 3iturgy of St! 7asil the .reat! he whole anaphora is theology and is e*pressed through prayer! 7ut then theology comes as a state of being! Qohn the heologian, from an academic point of view, was not a theologian, he says things simply! His theology, however, is a state of being! #hatever he says becomes dogma for everyone! he fathers around us have great devotion for the Elder and somehow, somehow they understand what he was all about! '!E!: 'bout whom, Elder; E!S!: 'bout Silouan$he was one of them! 'nd if % ta-e those to my right, or those to my left, it&s the same! %n fact, this past /onday % encouraged my brethren to describe in a better way the path of battling against passionate thoughts! 7ecause one of the sisters has written a boo- on the upbringing of children and though what she writes is simple, they are things that don&t come into our minds! 'nd perhaps it&s necessary to describe the way of battle, for Silouan spea-s of these things, but he does not describe how it happens! #hen the 3ord fought with Satan in the desert, there we have some -ind of an interpretation of the battle! 7ut what %&m trying to say is that perhaps people need to learn how they can battle against passionate thoughts; % discuss this topic a bit in my boo- on the Elder$but what do you thin-; %n the first boo-, % e*plain that every passionate thought is tied to the earth, with matter, and always ta-es a certain form, it&s a certain type! 'nd if our heart or word does not accept this form, the passion stops! 7ut sometimes, in the beginning, hand to hand combat needs to ta-e place! 8eople who don&t understand then as-, 7ut how does this happen;" '!E!: ,ou did very well to analy<e the way this battle wor-s, for you have written about these things in a contemporary manner! E!S!: % as-ed my brethren to try to describe it, but it&s dangerous for one to write, do you understand; %t&s not an easy thing! his problem needs to be e*pressed in some way! '!E!: his is a very subtle issue, Elder! E!S!: Silouan would say, of course he was without passion, %f a thought upsets us, we are free to discard this thought and to focus our attention on something else!" He was able to do thisR other people, however, are li-e slaves to passionate thoughts! '!E!: /any times, a passionate thought ma-es our life a living hell! E!S!: ,es, and it turns our whole being upside down$ '!E!: 'nd it&s at a high price that the 0athers lend us their wisdom, Elder! E!S!: ,es$Silouan says that we are free to focus our attention on something else, so that captivity to the passionate thought, for him, is not a real problem! he bad thought comes and he thin-s of other things! heoretically, as Silouan says, this is simple! %n action, however, and for us untrained ones, it is very difficult! ruly, the passionate thought stic-s and torments, such that the combat is as if fighting hand to hand with Satan! % am very grateful to .od that He saw me fit to become a mon- on the Holy /ountain! % was there for twenty)two years! '!E!: 'nd we are very grateful to .od that we were able to meet you today! 1Elder Sophrony does not answer! Some mon- as-ed, 9id you not hear, or did you not want to hear;"2

E!S!: % didn&t hear$! Knfortunately, the #est in this respect is undeveloped! hey study theology from boo-s! '!E!: #ith the intellect$ E!S!: ,es! 7ut the only study that enables us to sense what .od is li-e, is the ascetic life according to the commandments of the .ospel! #hen our life is lived according to the will of .od, then we understand that there cannot be a difference between the commandments and the mind of .od Himself! #hen we thin- according to the commandments, then our mind gets used to thin-ing as .od Himself thin-s! 'nd regarding theosis, they say: but what is theosis; #ith obedience to the abbot from the beginning, one&s will is cut off, then in obedience to the .ospel commandments one reaches this state! #e do small things but the results must become great! hrough obedience we enter into the life of divine 7eing! #e have good descriptions of this in the writings of St! (icodemus the 'thonite! '!E!: He was a great Saint! St! (icodemus described the ascetic, neptic life in detail! E!S!: ,es$you -now that we have the official proclamation of Silouan&s canoni<ation framed, in the same -ind of frame that they use in the Holy Community of the Holy /ountain!

The (nder"ro(nd crypt at the Holy Monastery of St. John the aptist, Esse!. /n the middle is the tomb of Elder Sophrony of blessed memory '!E!: #hen the official 8atriarchal proclamation came to the Community, for St! Silouan&s inclusion in the official list of Saints of the Orthodo* Church, they sent us a copy for our archives, and they sent one to all of the monasteries of the Holy /ountain! 7ecause the Saint was an 'thonite$ E!S!: 'nd %&m a +atopedinos$and %&m a +atopedinos5

'!E!: %diorhythmic, however! ,ou&re an idiorhythmic +atopedinos5 E!S!: (ot idiorhythmic, because % was at St! 'ndrew&s S-ete, which was a coenobium! 1't this point, the fathers begin to laugh!2 hey&re laughing$ '!E!: hey&re happy! hey&re not laughing, Elder, they&re happy5 E!S!: ,es, and % love them! o thin- and to live the way they do, in the present state of Europe, is a great thing! #hile in .reece, the whole atmosphere is full of faith, of theology, of asceticism! '!E!: .reece is also going through a crisis right now! he European, rationalistic way of life has been introduced to .reece, and it&s going through a spiritual crisis! E!S!: #e&ll see! 7ecause recently, great ascetics have reposed$no one can say that .reece is dead! %t is very much alive! '!E!: %t is alive, in one sense, but it is in danger from the secular and rationalistic spirit of the #est, and we are greatly distressed! #e are concerned for .reece! E!S!: 0air enough, but don&t you thin- we&ll be victorious; '!E!: ,es, we believe that! 7ut you -now, Elder, we are also concerned about the Holy /ountain! E!S!: %n what way; '!E!: 7ecause, you see, the young mon-s that come are used to comfortable living and do not acclimati<e easily to the ascetic tradition of the place! E!S!: %f that&s the case, then you will arrange their asceticism according to their capabilities, in particular the study of the past so that they can be freed of their secular ideas, and rather study the lives of the holy 0athers and the 'postles! ,ou understand what %&m trying to say$if that is where their thoughts are, they will not spend time with the passions! :emember the e*ample from the Gerontikon! here was a grace)filled ascetic who had a secular education and had been very wealthy! #hen another ascetic visited him, a person that had been a poor shepherd in the world, he saw the bed of the grace)filled ascetic and how he lived comfortably, and he was scandali<ed! #hen, however, he learned that in the world he had lived a lu*urious life, with great wealth, he accused himself and confessed that the wealthy man was now living ascetically, while he himself was living comfortably! '!E!: ,es, yes % remember that story! E!S!: #hen % was a spiritual father at Simonopetra, the older mon-s would complain about the younger mon-s, and the younger mon-s complained about the older mon-s! % would say to the older mon-s, 0rom where did you receive these children;" 0rom the world!" #hat did they learn there; How did they live;" '!E!: hat&s the way it is! E!S!: 9on&t e*pect them to become perfect right away! % have told others, as well, that when they learn things from the world, they are living in sin! hey need to free themselves through asceticism! his is how % tried to ma-e them understand the need for patience! (ow, holy abbot, let&s wrap this up, because the service will begin! #e were very glad that you wanted to come, and that % had the chance to see my abbot! '!E!: 3et it be blessed, Elder! % bring to you the respects of my Elder, who as-s that you remember him and pray for him! 1'nother mon- as-s Elder Sophrony2: 9o you remember Elder Qoseph, who came here two years ago; E!S!: ,es, yes of course$! #e need to finish, though$tomorrow we&re celebrating the consecration! ,ou -now, for some Saints and great teachers of the Church, there is no service, but for Silouan, on the Holy /ountain there are four! '!E!: Silouan is a great Saint! E!S!: 0or me, % have written about it$for me he is truly great!

'!E!: 0or you, he is the greatest! E!S!: 0or me, he is great$ '!E!: #hich Saints have you included in the consecration; #hich relics; 1'nother mon- responds2: #e included the two heodores Gthe martyrsJ and the venerable Silouan! '!E!: hrough the prayers of our holy 0ather, 3ord Qesus Christ our .od, have mercy on us! 1'll together2: 'men5 '!E!: han- you, Elder! E!S!: .od seldom allows ascetics to meet, and that&s the way it happened! his was precisely the reason$now$how did you -now it; '!E!: % didn&t understand your last sentence! How did % -now what, Elder; E!S!: hat ours would be a meeting in the Holy Spirit!