Mitsubishi Zero A6M2a Type 11 - ARC Discussion Forums - Page 4

Mitsubishi Zero A6M2a Type 11 - ARC Discussion Forums - Page 4
11/30/2013
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Mitsubishi Zero A6M2a Type 11 IJN Fuselage "Grey" Color...

Murph
Posted 18 December 2008 - 01:04 PM
#61
timc, on Dec 16 2008, 10:19 PM, said: The grey on the control surfaces is noticably different from the airframe. the control surface grey is similiar to a barley grey on a British jet. Not exactly but I think you get the general idea. I'll have to look around for my mix ratios tomorrow after work. I'm upstairs tonight and don't have my 3-ring binders in front of me.
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Tim, Thanks for the help, that gives me a ballpark idea. Regards, Murph
timc
#62
Step away from the computer!

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Murph: I've located the Tamiya color mixes done by Greg Springer and are as follows: Mitsubishi A6M's at Pearl Harbor: Airframe (sans control surfaces): XF-2 (White) 100 XF-8 (Yellow) 24 XF-1 (Black) 11 XF-7 (Red) 2 Control Surfaces (Fabric): XF-19 (Sky Grey) 105 XF-49 (Khaki) 20 XF-25 (Lt. Sea Grey) 15 Nakajima built A6M (s/n 646 at Midway) Airframe (sans control surfaces): See Nick's Post below for Tamiya mix. Control Surfaces (Fabric): XF-20 (Medium Grey) 50 XF-19 (Sky Grey) 7 XF-53 (Neutral Grey) 5 These are Greg Springer's mixes dated 2006 for Tamiya paints only. He has, I believe, developed mixes for Model Master paints as well. The numbers represent the number of drops of each color to use. Proportionally increase or decrease the amount for the scale of the aircraft you're working in. Tim
This post has been edited by timc: 19 December 2008 - 02:28 PM
stubbyhouse
#63
Rivet Counter
OK The post I made this morning got posted three times . Was out the door for work and the computer was acting stupid or it could have been
http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index.php?showtopic=172153&st=60
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me ! How do I delete two of the posts . Gary

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timc
Posted 19 December 2008 - 12:38 AM
#64

Nick Millman, on Dec 18 2008, 06:07 AM, said: Nothing in my admittedly indigestible post implies or should be taken as any disagreement with Greg's mixes. Greg very kindly sent me actual swatches of his colour mixes and a copy of the report on the analysis of the artifacts. The mixes are very precise replications of the current appearance of specific extant artifacts. The imponderable questions of scale effect, age and consistency through production still arise though, cannot be quantified and for modelling purposes are best left to individual interpretation. As modelling is essentially an interpretative art it seems valid for individual modellers to address such questions or to ignore them. The modeller is thereby making informed decisions and the choices he or she makes, especially in the absence of definitive data, are invariably reasonable. There may be different imperatives for the modeller seeking to replicate the Iida Zero and for the modeller seeking to replicate another Zero at another time and place. The three model Zeros shown in this thread are different in appearance but each is a superb example of individual interpretation and skill to be admired.
Nick, I hope it didn't come accross that I was questioning your interpretation....If I did, I apologize, that was not my intention. I was instead trying to shortcut some of the folks in here that might get confused by your post.... Apparently I did not succeed as well as I had hoped. I understood what you are alluding to and filed it in the brain box for future reference. For the record, I agree with what you've said here (albeit I have done no real research on the question) and admitedly, rely on work such as yours to frame my interpretation. I have another zero in my 1/32 scale collection that may or may not be converted into an A6M2N using the excellent MDC resin offering but that's down the road a fur piece though Tim
This post has been edited by timc: 19 December 2008 - 12:39 AM
timc
#65
Step away from the computer! john53, on Dec 14 2008, 08:41 AM, said:
The two tone was from the front of the aircraft being covered with a tarp, the exposed area, rear fuselage "faded" in the sun. I have seen pictures somewhere of A6M11's in China I think with tarps over cockpit , forward fuselage area. HTH---John
That's correct and if I may add... The tarp(s) extended across the wings too. I've forgotten exactly how far out the tarp extended out the wing but it was relatively close to wing root. I'll have to do some digging to find a more definite answer on the location of the tarp across the wings. I know pictures exist, I've seen them, I just have to find them...LOL. I do know that a photo of a faded A6M2 Model 11 is in the Squadron "In-Action" on the zero showing the faded fuselage (in-flight photo). If you look closely, you can also see the same type fading on the wing. Tim
Murph
#66
To Tim and Nick, thanks for taking the time to post the information that you did; it certainly made this a thread worth pinning for future reference. Regards, Murph

Nick Millman
#67
Newbie
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timc, on Dec 19 2008, 12:38 AM, said: Nick,
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11/30/2013
I hope it didn't come accross that I was questioning your interpretation....If I did, I apologize, that was not my intention. I was instead trying to shortcut some of the folks in here that might get confused by your post.... Apparently I did not succeed as well as I had hoped. I understood what you are alluding to and filed it in the brain box for future reference. For the record, I agree with what you've said here (albeit I have done no real research on the question) and admitedly, rely on work such as yours to frame my interpretation.
Hi Tim No, not at all. No need to apologize. I understood and appreciated your response. :-) I'm still puzzled by the reference to Midway Nakajima Zeros and XF-76 though. Greg sent me the following formula and the sprayed swatch for the metal surfaces of a Midway Zero and it is quite different in appearance to XF-76:XF-49 Khaki 100 XF-2 35 X-6 Orange 6 With Clear Glosscoat It may be that this is not the S/N 646 and refers to another a/c. The colour is much more tan in appearance than the PH artifacts. The observations of Lt. Col. Loyd Childers USMC (Ret.) may be relevant:"At Pearl Harbor on 7 Dec 1941 and again at the Battle of Midway on 4 June 1942, I particularly noticed the color of the IJN Zeros as a light tan (his emphasis), very shiny or slick." This certainly corroborates the artifact evidence and contemporaneous Japanese descriptions that the paint colour was amber/brownish in appearance at the time. After Action Reports completed by US crews after Midway described the colour of Zeros as "ash gray", "light tan" and "khaki colour". We just don't know yet whether this brownish appearance was deliberate or a result of the paint manufacturing/application process. Greg's Testors Model Master mix for the full scale Iida Zero artifact colour was as follows:1792 SAC Bomber Tan 20 1768 White 11 1734 Green Zinc Chromate 0.9 Acrylic Clear Coat There are additional swatches rendered from Zero artifacts, comparisons of some available Hobby paints and discussion in the 6-part series "The Zero Colour Conundrum" at my blogsite:http://www.straggleresearch.com/ More recently I noted similarities between the Zero colours and the contemporary RAF colour "Camouflage Beige" (aka "RAF Hemp"). We will never know for sure and I think modellers can legitimately exploit the diversity and unknowns of Zero colours to be experimental or even adventurous with their paint finishes and to have fun. Regards Nick
timc
#68

The reference to XF-76 and the subject aircraft might also be my poor memory and that may be why I cannot find a hard copy of the email between Greg and myself....because it doesn't exist. You've posted Greg's mixes for that aircraft and I think I'd rather use those than the straight XF-76. Tim
Nick Millman
#69
Newbie
PS There are some photographs of the "two-tone" China Zeros from Saburo Sakai's photo album posted at my blog:http://www.straggleresearch.com/2008/05/tw...over-china.html These show the wing demarcation Tim refers to but it is "soft" - not hard edged - and quite ragged.
timc
#70

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I also noticed that in one of the shots at your blogsite, the one with the closeup of the left wing in the foreground, you can readily make out the different shade of grey between the wing and the aileron. How's the for an "off the cuff" observation? LOL.... I think that the reason for the soft edge difference on the wing is because the tarps were not drawn down tight against the wing surface allowing a soft edge between faded and unfaded areas. Do you agree?
3/6

Gender: Male Location: Horseheads, NY
11/30/2013
This post has been edited by timc: 19 December 2008 - 09:56 PM
Nick Millman
#71
Newbie
timc, on Dec 19 2008, 09:53 PM, said: I also noticed that in one of the shots at your blogsite, the one with the closeup of the left wing in the foreground, you can readily make out the different shade of grey between the wing and the aileron. How's the for an "off the cuff" observation? LOL....
Yes, but did you also notice the apparent overpaint onto the wing which suggests the ailerons may have been re-doped in situ and the fact that the finish appears to be darker than the metal paint? It's a mystery but it would be interesting if the ailerons had been re-doped in red-brown primer! "I think that the reason for the soft edge difference on the wing is because the tarps were not drawn down tight against the wing surface allowing a soft edge between faded and unfaded areas. Do you agree?" Yes, that could be it. A gap under the tarps would result in the ultra-violet exposure changing with the movement of the sun and may have created the diffuse demarcation.
timc
#72

Quote Yes, but did you also notice the apparent overpaint onto the wing which suggests the ailerons may have been re-doped in situ and the fact that the finish appears to be darker than the metal paint? It's a mystery but it would be interesting if the ailerons had been re-doped in red-brown primer!
Now that you bring my attention to it, yes, I see what seems to be overpainting on the wing. Interesting... would sentai in the field have quantities of red-brown primer on hand? I can't see why they wouldn't. Tim
Murph
#73
Gentlemen, Any ideas on the color for flap and wing fold interiors on Mistubishi built early Zeros?
Regards, Murph
timc
#74

Murph, on Dec 20 2008, 09:36 AM, said: Gentlemen, Any ideas on the color for flap and wing fold interiors on Mistubishi built early Zeros? Regards, Murph
Yes, Aotake for both.
Sabre
Posted 08 February 2009 - 02:54 PM
#75
"Pull my finger...."
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Man...this thread certainly is a wealth of information & thanks to all that have contributed to it! Thinking I'll go with MM IJN Light Grey for the 32nd Rufe conversion....and then weather the heck out of it. Do have a couple of questions...... Whats' the reason for black cowls on Zeros?......and was it actually a true black, or a variation of same? Any ideas on an MM enamel colour that would be close enough? And certainly not above using RLM colours....
4/6

Member ID: 3 Gender: Male Location: Remlap, Alabama
11/30/2013
Thanks! Good to Go, Jim
Steve N
#76
From what I've read, IJN cowls were actually a blue-black (I ususally use a 10/1 mix of black to dark blue) while IJAAF cowls were more of a brownish black. The blue-black seems to be the one color that has not been controversial over the past couple of decades.
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Sabre
#77
"Pull my finger...."
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Thanks Steve! Good info to file back for future reference....even though won't be able to start on it for a while. And a bit tongue-in-cheek here......nice to hear that SOMETHING about colors isn't the subject of debate... Good to go, Jim
timc
#78

According to a post by Ryan Toews at j-aircraft.com and some photos from A6M2N relics, the flap interiors were painted silver on these models. Presumably for better protection from the salt spray.
This post has been edited by timc: 08 February 2009 - 10:15 PM
David_Aiken
Posted 17 March 2009 - 01:32 AM
#79
Canopy Polisher
The old MSN Community has phased out and Multiply has taken over: Here is the album on the model 11 in China: http://japaneseaircraft.multiply.com/photo...del_11_in_China Cheers, David Aiken
David_Aiken
Posted 17 March 2009 - 01:43 AM
#80
Canopy Polisher
The latest color discoverys are from Japan. Several Japanese researchers made a concerted task to locate color documents with great success. Three Japanese Navy documents and a IJA document have been located thus far. The first document published was Feb 1942 IJN Document Number '0266', a test of variety of colors applied to the famous Zero. A large amount of discussion began, yet the conclusion was that more searching was required. Page 1: http://japaneseaircraft.multiply.com/photo...olor_samples#11 Page 2: http://japaneseaircraft.multiply.com/photo...olor_samples#12 The next document located and GAKKEN magazine printed was an April 1945 IJN document number '8609' and the number system was drastically different than '0266' for the same color name. Page 1: http://japaneseaircraft.multiply.com/photo...olor_samples#19 (All pages are posted at this URL). Digging continued. and TWO copies of the November 1938 IJN document [April 1942 revision] Temporary Specification No.117 Additional Volume were located. This truely laid out the colors used in WWII (see attached 'spread' of the swatches) and the other documents (above) helped to show some changes as the war progressed. http://www5d.biglobe...o/subw117-2.htm Satoshi Kimura, the son of the late Tadao Kimura (pilot of Zero AI-101 at Pearl Harbor), wrote more about the history of Japanese color (This is a machine translation):
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http://translate.google.com/translate?u=ht...=en&ie=UTF8 Check the 'Ame' (caramel) 'Iro' (color) at: http://japaneseaircraft.multiply.com/photo.../Color_samples# It was NOT used after 1940. The Japanese researchers confirm that the color used on the Zero prototype thru the A6M3 model 22 is called 'Hairyokushoku' (literally graygreen)...including the RUFE That color 'M0/M1...Hairyokushoku' may be seen in the 'M' series of the '117' color swatches. Tamiya produced this 'Hairyokushoku' [literally 'gray-green'] for their 1/32 Zero 21 and 'unsaturated' (lightened) the color for use on 1/32 and 1/48 scale miniatures: http://tamiyashop.jp...//8/1/81776.jpg Sweet has 'unsaturated' the 'Hairyokushoku' color even further for 1/144 scale Zeros. http://www.ms-plus.n...19000/19120.jpg Gaia has their 'Hairyokushoku' version: http://www.ms-plus.n...20000/20487.jpg and Mr Color is selling C-128 'Hairyokushoku', too. Tamiya: http://tamiyashop.jp...oducts_id=81776 Sweet: http://www.ms-plus.c...ch.asp?id=19120 GAIA: http://www.ms-plus.c...ch.asp?id=20487 Mr Color: http://kakaku.livedo.../20773440560134 A6M General http://www.biwa.ne.jp/~yamato/zeke.htm http://www.preservedaxisaircraft.com/Japan...subishi/A6M.htm http://www.geocities...al/Hangar/4691/ A6M 2, 3, 5 http://www.zero-figh...gual/genzon.htm http://www.geocities...an41/hiko06.htm A6M2 http://www.hubuki.jp...04/a6m2004.html http://www002.upp.so-net.ne.jp/g-sugi/toku...awaguchiko.html http://www.fargoairmuseum.org/historic-air...-zero-6544.html
A6M3 http://otd6.jbbs.liv...55492/bbs_plain http://rwebs.net/avh...e32.htm#Cockpit http://home.interlink.or.jp/~katoh00/ A6M5 http://harunazy.hp.i...opht/zero11.htm http://www2u.biglobe...fu/ibutu63.html http://ksa.axisz.jp/...ureYamato-1.htm http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=e...l%3Den%26sa%3DN A6M7 http://www.rinku.zaq...07/sub2.htm.htm http://www.picmate.j...9/albums/20896/ http://rides.webshot...558492595xlIYaa A6M Details http://www10.ocn.ne....m232/index.html
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Mitsubishi Zero A6M2a Type 11 IJN Fuselage "Grey" Color...

Just happy to be here

Step away from the computer!