Benjamin Hebblethwaite Interviews Ongan Michelet Alisma

1 Benjamin Hebblethwaite and Tahiri Jean-Baptiste
Copyright 2013, University of Florida, the UF-Duke NEH Collaborative Grant

Benjamin Hebblethwaites interview
with Ongan Michelet Tibosse Alisma
Edited by Benjamin Hebblethwaite
Transcribed and translated by Tahiri Jean-Baptiste

Ben: Bonjou tout moun. Se mwen menm,
Benjamin Hebblethwaite. Mwen isit nan
onf Michelet Alisma ki travay km
ongan pou Socit Linto Roi Trois
Mystres. Se yon gran onf isit nan lavil
Miyami. Nou gen anpil optinite. Se yon
bl okazyon pou nou vini isit f yon ti
pale avk ongan Michelet Alisma sou
tout koze ki gen arevwa avk relijyon
Vodou e avk sosyete li isit nan Miyami.
Mwen travay km pwofes asistan nan
Inivsite Laflorid. Se travay rechch
mwen sou kwayans Vodou, tradisyon
Vodou, chante Vodou ki mennen mwen
antre pran rechch sa nan kominote
ayisyen an. Kounye a la, nou pral tande
de twa ti mo ongan Michelet Alisma pral
pataje avk nou sou li menm.

Ongan Alisma: Mwen di bonswa avk
Ben. M tr kontan asavwa ke w kapab
deplase w vin f entvyou sa avk nou
jodi an. Je suis Michelet Tibosse Alisma.
Mwen se yon bk, on ongan asogwe
andedan Socit Linto Roi Trois
Mystres k ap f travay Ginen an
Ben: Hello everyone. It is me, Benjamin
Hebblethwaite. I am here at the Vodou
temple of Michelet Alisma who works as
the ongan for Socit Linto Roi Trois
Mystres. It is an important Vodou
temple here in the city of Miami. We are
in luck. It is a wonderful occasion for us
to be able to come here to speak with
ongan Michelet Alisma on everything
that has to do with the religion of Vodou
and his Vodou society here in Miami. I
work as an assistant professor at the
Univeristy of Florida. Its my work on
Vodou belief, Vodou tradition, Vodou
music that brings me into the Haitian
community to conduct this research. At
this time, we will hear a few words
ongan Michelet Alisma will share with us
about himself.

Ongan Alisma: Hello Ben, I am very
pleased that you were able to conduct
this interview with us today. I am
Michelet Tibosse Alisma. I am a bk, an
ongan asogwe inside of Socit Linto Roi
Trois Mystres that is doing Ginens
work inside of the city of Miami. I am a

andedan vil Miyami an. Mwen se yon
enjeny sivil. Mwen se yon kontab.
Mwen se yon bk-ongan ki kmanse f
travay sa depi laj stan arive jodi a.
Mwen genyen trantwitan; f ke mwen
genyen tranteyin an, pwofondman, ke m
ap prezante entvyou sa dan lenon
Socit Linto Roi Trois Mystres.

Ben: Msi anpil paske ou akde nou on
entvyou. Mwen ta renmen konnen kk
detay sou ki kote ou soti avk ki kalite
fanmi ou soti ladan.

Ongan Alisma: Mwen soti an Ayiti,
Latibonit, andedan vil Gonayiv Dekawo.
Se la m sti. Mwen sti andedan yon
fanmi Vodouwizan e relijye an menm
tan.

Ben: L w di relijye, w ap f referans
avk legliz Katolik, oubyen kisa sa vle di,
m, p?

Ongan Alisma: Mwen genyen matant
mwen ki m. Mwen genyen tonton mwen
ki past. Mwen genyen pr de nf tonton
mwen ki ongan osi.

Ben: Pou mwen menm, m twouve sa
enteresan. Gen tout kwayans diferan nan
mitan yon sl fanmi? ske se nmal an
Ayiti pou tout bk, ongan soti nan yon
kontks ki divs konsa?

Ongan Alisma: L Ginen an ap f chwa li
pa distenge ou limite. Li rantre men l
kote ke l vle: kote k f l plzi.

Ben: Li pa gade sou kwayans lt moun
nan fanmi an?

Ongan Alisma: Ditou paske papa mwen
civil engineer. I am an accountant. I am a
bk-ongan who started doing this work
at the age of seven until today. I am
thirty eight years old; I have been
representing Vodou in the name of
Socit Linto Roi Trois Mystres for
thirty-one years.

Ben: Thank you very much for sharing
an interview with us. I would like to
know some details about where you are
from and what sort of family you come
from.

Ongan Alisma: I come from Haiti, the
Artibonite, from the city of Gonaves,
Dekawo. That is where I come from. I
come from a family that is Vodouist and
religious at the same time.

Ben: When you say religious, are you
referring to the Catholic church? What
does that meannunns, priests?

Ongan Alisma: I have an aunt who is a
nunn. I have an uncle who is a pastor. I
have close to nine uncles who are ongan.

Ben: For me, I find that interesting.
There are all sorts of different beliefs
within one family? Is that normal in Haiti
for all bk and ongan to come from
such diverse backgrounds?

Ongan Alisma: When Ginen is making its
decisions, it has no distinctions or
limitations. It takes from where it wants:
from where it pleases.

Ben: It doesnt take into account the
beliefs of others in the family?

Ongan Alisma: Not at all because my

se te yon predikat avan epi apr li vin
ongan.

Ben: Oke! Konsa li chanje chemen
kwayans li nan mitan lavi l?

Ongan Alisma: Wi!

Ben: Ou di ou te kmanse vin ongan a laj
de stan.

Ongan Alisma: Bk!

Ben: Oke ou bk a laj de stan ; ki l ou
te vin ongan?

Ongan Alisma: Mwen te vin pran ason a
laj de sz an.

Ben: L ou te gen stan kijan ou te
konnen pou w travay nan domn Ginen
an?

Ongan Alisma: Jan mwen te konnen pou
m te travay nan domn Ginen an se
paske l mwen al lekl, lwa konn ap pran
mwen lekl. Papa m te gentan ongan,
men f mwen di w byen ke mwen ft nan
peristil. Mwen leve anba peristil. A st
epk papa m te predikat mwen potko
ft. L mwen gen setan mwen ale lekl,
lwa ap pran mwen lekl. Premye fwa sa
rive direkt lekl la te oblije kouri lopital
avk mwen. L direkt lekl la kouri
lopital avk mwen. L nou rive dokt
konsilte mwen yo di bon yo w mwen pa
gen anyen. Konsa yo vin rele l, papa
mwen, nan direksyon lekl la pou yo
eksplike l men kisa k ap pase pitit li. Li f
yo konnen nenpt l yo ta w sa rive
ank, si pa gen posibilite pou yo kapab
mennen mwen ba li yo gen dwa rele li
vin chche mwen. L sa rive ank, bon,
yo rele misye epi l deplase l vin chche
father was a preacher before and
became an ongan after.

Ben: Okay! He changed his belief system
in the middle of his life?

Ongan Alisma: Yes!

Ben: You said you became an ongan at
seven years old.

Ongan Alisdma: Bk!

Ben: Alright you were a bk at seven
years old; when did you become an
ongan?

Ongan Alisma: I took up the ason at the
age of sixteen.

Ben: When you were seven years old
how did you know to work in the Vodou
domain?

Ongan Alisma: I knew to work in the
domain of Vodou because when I would
go to school, the lwa would take me. My
father was already an ongan but, I have
to express that I was born in the peristil.
At the time that my father was a
preacher I was not yet born. When I was
seven I would go to school and lwa
would take me at school. The first time
that happened the director of the school
had to rush me to the hospital. When we
arrived the doctor examined me and said
that they couldnt find anything wrong
with me. Thats how they came to call
him, my father, to the school so they
could explain to him what happened to
his child. He let them know if ever that
were to happen again, if there was no
possibility to bring me to him, they could
call him to come get me. When it
happened again, well, they called him

m. Li mennen mwen lakay. L mwen rive
lakay gen moun. Espri a deja ap chche
kliyan pou li menm, pou l travay. Se l
mwen rive lakay kounye a, se travay
espri a te vin travay. Li chita li travay
pou moun yo. L espri a fin travay pou
moun yo, li ale. Kounye a zye m kl,
mwen wont. Mwen kouri.

Ben: Poukisa ou te santi ou wont?

Ongan Alisma: Rezon ki koz mwen santi
mwen wont paske mwen antre nan yon
travay pou mwen menm, m panse m
poko gen matirite e konesans pou li
paske a st epk si yon moun ta vin kote
mwen pou kont mwen san lwa a m pa t
ap janm resevwa l e m pa t ap konnen
kisa pou m ta di l osi.

Ben: Moun te kmanse chche w menm
l ou te gen stan paske l lwa te montre
ou te genyen kapasite geri yo oubyen f
byen pou yo?

Ongan Alisma: Wi, paske lepli souvan
moun ki vin konsilte mwen se son d
moun ki w mwen nan revelasyon yo ki
gen pwoblm k ap boulvse yo e nan
revelasyon yo, yo w se tl kote y ale
mande pou tl moun l yo rive yo jwenn
solisyon. Se konsa moun sa yo vin ap
chche mwen.

Ben: L yon moun gen stan epi li gen
lwa ki monte l kijan kalite ganizasyon
sa te mache? Ou te nan peristil lwa te
monte w pandan yon tan epi yon kliyan
te vini pou chche d?

Ongan Alisma: Se pa nan peristil. Mwen
di w, ank, mwen te nan sal de klas lekl
and he came and got me. He brought me
home. When I arrived home there were
people. The spirits were already
searching for clients, so they could work.
When I arrived at home it was clear that
the spirit came to work. He sat and
worked for the people. When the spirit
was done working for the people, he left.
At this moment my eyes were opened; I
was ashamed. I ran.

Ben: Why did you feel ashamed?

Ongan Alisma: I felt ashamed because I
took part in a type of work that, for me, I
did not possess the maturity or the
know-how for. Because, at that time, if a
person had come to me by myself,
without the lwa, I wouldnt receive him
and I also wouldnt know what to tell
him.

Ben: People started searching for you
even though you were seven because the
lwa showed that you had the capacity to
heal them or do well for them?

Ongan Alisma: Yes, because oftentimes
the people I consulted were people who
saw me in their dreams, who had
problems that were troubling them and
in the dreams they saw that it was a
particular place, they went asking for a
particular person and when they arrived
they found a solution. Thats how these
people came to search for me.

Ben: When a person is seven years old
and he is ridden by lwa how does that
work? Were you in a peristil and lwa
rode you for a time and a client came to
seek aid?

Ongan Alisma: It was not in the peristil.
Ill say, again, I was in the classroom one

yon bon jou tankou jodi an epi lespri vin
sou mwen lekl la. Lekl pran mwen
mennen mwen lopital. L dokt konsilte
mwen yo w m pa gen anyen. M pa gen
anyen kounye a la yo konvoke papa
mwen nan reyinyon ala direksyon lekl.
Yo aprann papa mwen sa k pase. Papa m
di oke klkeswa l sa rive, rele m. Rezon
ki koz papa m te di rele l se paske papa
m te gentan w gen moun k ap vin
mande pou mwen, pou jan de travay sa.

Ben: Nan tt pa m, nan lide pa m, mwen
te toujou panse yon timoun ta jwenn
kontak avk lwa pandan yon seremoni.
Se ti lide ki nan tt mwen. Lwa kapab
pran yon moun nan nenpt l, nenpt
kote? Sa p ap nesesman anba yon
peristil pandan yon seremoni?

Ongan Alisma: Lwa ka pran yon moun
andedan Vatikan, andedan legliz
Pwotestan, andedan yon semin,
andedan yon lekl, andedan lachanm,
andedan yon pal: nan on konferans de
prs; nan yon miting; nan yon asanble.

Ben: Premye fwa ou te w lwa se nan
peristil papa w e nan seremoni sa yo?

Ongan Alisma: Mwen leve w sa menm.
M w sa tout tan.

Ben: Donk, nan okazyon familyal, pandan
ti ft familyal, pandan nenpt moman?

Ongan Alisma: Non, m ap pale w de
seremoni Vodou andedan peristil papa
mwen, lakay mwen menm; kominote
kote mwen ft Gonayiv, Dekawo.

Ben: ske ou ka di gen yon l ki pi
day like today and a spirit came to me at
the school. The school took me and
brought me to the hospital. When
doctors consulted me they saw that
there was nothing wrong with me. There
was nothing wrong so they summoned
my father to a meeting with the director
of the school. They told my father what
happened. My father said: alright,
whenever that happens, call me. My
father said to call him because my father
already saw that there were people who
would come to ask for me for that type of
work.

Ben: In my head, in my understanding, I
always thought a child would come into
contact with a lwa during a ceremony.
Thats the idea in my head. Lwa can take
a person whenever, wherever? It wont
necessarily be under a peristil during a
ceremony?

Ongan Alisma: Lwa can take a person
inside of the Vatican, inside of the
Protestant church, inside of a seminar,
inside a school, inside of the bedroom,
inside of a palace: in a press conference;
in a meeting; in an assembly.

Ben: Was the first time you saw lwa in
your fathers peristil in the ceremonies?

Ongan Alisma: I was brought up seeing
that. I see that all the time.

Ben: Well, in a family occasion, during a
family party, at any moment?

Ongan Alisma: No, Im speaking of Vodou
ceremonies inside of my fathers peristil,
in my very home; in the community
where I was born in Gonaves, Dekawo.

Ben: Would you say there is a time thats

pwopis, ki pi ankourajan pou lwa vini?
Se seremoni men malgre sa yo kapab
vini nan lt...?

Ongan Alisma: Nan ka de emdjensi.

Ben: Oke! Nou te pale lt jou sou diferans
ant bk avk ongan. Mwen panse anpil
Ameriken epi anpil chch nan domn
Vodou pa fin distenge diferans lan byen.
ske w kapab eklere nou sou diferans
ant de domn Vodou sa yo?

Ongan Alisma: Diferans ki genyen antre
bk e ongan: l ke ou se yon bk ske
w se yon moun yon lwa deside pou
travay pou li. Lwa a f apl avk ou pou
w al travay pou li. Li kmanse montre w
li menm nan dmi kisa l ka f, kijan l
fonksyone, kiys li ye. L ap montre w jan
de bagay sa yo epi l ap montre w jan de
f ke l ka f w. L mwen pale de f, kijan
de pwoms ke l kapab f w si w aksepte
travay pou li. Konsa, ou pral rekont ou
se on chwazi. Kay okenn bk, oungan
ke ou pase y ap toujou di w sa. Y ap di w
mwen w ou se yon chwazi. M w yo
pwotekte w; ou pwisan; yo chwazi w. Yo
ta renmen travay avk ou.

Ben: Kijan yo kapab detekte sa?

Ongan Alisma: Klkeswa kote kay
manbo, kay ongan ke w pase aosi si w
ap f on konsiltasyon de manbo sa
oubyen de ongan saespri ki chwazi w
la l toujou part pou l pase mesaj la bay
ongan k ap konsilte w la, bay manbo k ap
konsilte w la. Konsa li kapab konnen.
more convenient, thats more
encouraging for the lwa to come? Its the
ceremony but despite that they can come
in other?

Ongan Alisma: In cases of emergency.

Ben: Okay! We spoke the other day on
the difference between bk and ongan.
I think that a lot of Americans and a lot
of researchers in the Vodou domain
dont quite yet finely distinguish the
difference. Could you enlighten us on the
difference between those two Vodou
domains?

Ongan Alisma: The difference that exists
between bk and ongan: when you are
a bk you are a person a lwa chose to
work for him. The lwa called you to work
for him. He begins to show you himself,
in sleep, what he can do, how he
functions, who he is. Hell show you
those sorts of things and hell show you
the type of offerings he can make you.
When I say offerings, what type of
promises he can make you if you accept
to work for it. This way you will
recognize that you are chosen. Any bk,
ongans house you visit, they will tell you
that you are chosen. They will tell you
they see you are a chosen one.
I see that they protect you; you are
powerful; they chose you. They would
like to work with you.

Ben: How can they detect this?

Ongan Alisma: Any manbo, ongans
house you visitespecially if you are
doing a consultation with the manbo or
onganthe spirit that has chosen you
will always appear to deliver the
message to the ongan or manbo whos
consulting you. That is how hell know.

Ben: Mwen vle konnen plis sou nan
dmistadi nan rvpou aprann plis
detay sou ki lwa li ye, kisa li vle, kisa li ka
f pou nou. ske gen yon tradisyon pale
tou: tankou papa w, tout lt bk, lt
ongan ki vin di w men plis enfmasyon
sou lwa ki chwazi la?

Ongan Alisma: L ke ou w nan yon
revelasyon, nan yon rv jan de espri sa
yo ki vin pale avk ou, se tou nmal l w
leve demen, si Dye vesi papa w
oubyen, tonton w oubyen, granpapa w
oubyen, kouzen oubyen, kouzin ou pa t
manbo, pa t onganse pou w deplase al
chche konnen, si w vle. L w al chche
konnen, l ap eksplike w, wi men kisa
mwen w pou ou. Ou gen on lwa ki f
apl avk ou pou w vin travay avk li.

Ben: Se nan demen ou kapab chache plis
konfimasyon, plis detay sou idantite lwa
a?

Ongan Alisma: Wi ou kapab chche
idantite lwa a, e on lt manbo oubyen on
lt ongan si w pa gen on gran paran pa w
ki deja nan domn nan deja.

Ben: Mwen ta renmen konnen plis sou
kk senbl, oubyen kote nan peristil la
tankou potomitan. Tout moun ki etidye
Vodou konnen byen vit potomitan se yon
senbl nan sant kwayans Vodou. Ou ka
pale sou wl li e pou kisa moun toujou
vire otou li kont zegui mont

Ongan Alisma: Klkeswa mezon an,
klkeswa chn kay ke li ye a se
potomitan an ki pou kenbe l. L nou pale
de potomitan se menm jan nou kapab di

Ben: I would like to know more about
sleepthat is to say, in dreamsto
learn more details about which lwa it is,
what he wants, what he can do for you. Is
there also a speaking tradition: like your
father, other bk, other ongan who
come and tell you more information on
the lwa that chose you?

Ongan Alisma: When you see in a
revelation, in a dream, these types of
spirits that come and speak with you, its
perfectly normal, when you wake up in
the morning, God willingif your father,
or your uncle, or your granfather, or
your cousin, arent manbo, arent
onganto go and seek to learn, if you
want. When you seek to learn, he will
explain what you need to do. You have a
lwa that has called on you to work with
it.

Ben: Is it the next day you can search for
more confirmation, more details on the
identity of the lwa?

Ongan Alisma: Yes you can search for the
identity of the lwa or another manbo,
another ongan if you dont have a parent
who is already in the domain.

Ben: I would like to know more on some
symbols, or places in the peristil like the
potomitan (center post). Everyone who
studies Vodou knows very well that the
potomitan is a central symbol in the
Vodou belief. Can you speak on its role
and why people always rotate around it
counter-clockwise?

Ongan Alisma: Whatever house,
whatever house it might be, the
potomitan will hold it up. When we
speak of the potomitan, similarly, if we

ou menm nan fwaye lakay ou se on
potomitan. Paske ou chf fwaye a, se ou
menm ki pou f, ede f. Se ou k plis lonje
men bay madan m ou ke madan m ou
lonje men ba ou pou w kapab pran swen
fwaye a. La ou se yon potomitan. Si w pa
ta la, nan egzistans fwaye sa, ske se on
fwaye ki paralize. Se wl potomitan an sa
andedan sekt Vodou a. Se potomitan an
ki reprezante l kat pwen kadino ki pou
pmt on onsi kanzo, manbo, ongan yo
konnen kote yo dwe kanpe pou yo
soryante [to orient themselves] l y ap f
salitasyon avk lwa yo.

Ben: Poukisa yo toujou anskle
potomitan an nan yon sl direksyon? Yo
toujou f direksyon sa; yo pa janm f
direksyon sa. ske gen yon sans dy sa?

Ongan Alisma: Vodou a genyen yon sl
plan strikti de potomitan yo. Klkeswa
kote w pase ou w yon potomitan se pou
w jwenn li kare oubyen ou jwenn li won.
Se menm jan klkeswa lopital ou pase a,
klkeswa nasyon an w ap w lopital la
gen menm sin. Klkeswa kote w pase ki
gen on lakwa wouj, depi w part ou w
se on lakwa wouj. M gen dwa rive kay la
kounye a m pa konn pale lang chinwa yo
men depi m rive m ap w sa se yon
lopital paske li di sa se lopital e sin nan
pa chanje pou klkeswa nasyon.

Ben: Tout Vodouwizan ki svi ak
potomitan, yo tout svi avk li menm
jan? Yo tout respekte l menm jan?

Ongan Alisma: Wi!

Ben: Tout Vodou?
were to say that you, yourself, are a
potomitan in your marriage. Because
you are the head of the marriage, its you
who has to do, help do. Its you who
extends a hand to your wife rather than
your wife extending a hand to you so you
can take care of the marriage. Here, you
are a potomitan. If you werent here, in
the existence of the marriage, it would
be a paralyzed marriage. That is the role
of the potomitan within the Vodou
sector. Its the potomitan that represents
the four cardinal points that allows the
onsi kanzo, manbo, ongan know where
they need to stand to orient themselves
when they are saluting the lwa.

Ben: Why do they always circle around
the potomitan in the same direction?
They always do that direction; they
never do this direction. Is there a reason
behind this?

Ongan Alisma: Vodou has one strict plan
for the potomitan. Wherever you go and
you find a potomitan its either square or
round. Similarly wherever you pass a
hospital, in whatever nation, youll see
that the hospital has the same sign.
Wherever you go that has a red cross,
upon arriving, you see that its a red
cross. I could arrive at the house and not
know how to speak the Chinese
language, but upon arriving, Ill see that
its a hospital because it says that is a
hospital and the sign never changes, no
matter the country.

Ben: All the Vodouists who use the
potomitan, do they all use it the same
way? They all treat it the same?

Ongan Alisma: Yes!

Ben: All Vodou?

Ongan Alisma: Wi!

Ben: Nan anpil seremoni ou w moun f
salitasyon. Se youn nan eleman pratik
Vodou. Ou w anpil nan seremoni se
salitasyon lwa yo. Pandan y ap salye yon
lwa tankou Danbala oubyen Loko
oubyen Ezili yo konn vizite menm kote
nan peristil la a chak fwa yo kmanse on
nouvo wn salitasyon? Tankou: yo salye
potomitan. Yo salye ountgi, moun ki bat
tanbou. Yo salye pt djvo. Youn salye
lt, tankou lt ounsi yo. Yo salye odyans.
ske se an menm tan tou on bagay ki
menm nan tout Vodou?

Ongan Alisma: Sa se senp. Mwen rete
kw ke si w deplase, ou vin lakay mwen
jodi an premye bagay ou f l w antre
lakay mwen se ou dwe salye mwen.
Enbyen se de menm. Seremoni an ap ft.
Yo pral rantre. Se mwen menm yo leve
pou mwen salye lwa Loko. Se on lwa m
renmen salye anpil. Yo leve mwen pou
mwen salye lwa Loko. Premye bagay m
dwe f se prezante mwen a loryan
loksidan, ki vle di lekat pwen kadino nan
langaj mistik la epwi pou mwen f
konesans avk yo epi jodi a se li menm ki
la pou mwen salye l, pou mwen desvi l
nan seremoni sa.

Ben: Sa se otou potomitan an?

Ongan Alisma: Anhan e w a pral w avan
tou ke mwen tmine salitasyon an, si l
apresye mwen li tou vin sou mwen. Se
konsa tou, si se pa mwen menm li te vle
nan moman sa, se ou menm li te vle epi
se sou ou l vini pandan mwen menm m
ap salye l. Se konsa l gen dwa vini sou
ongan Makis. Li gen dwa vini sou Ongan
Emmanuel. Li kapab vini sou yon lt osi.

Ongan Alisma: Yes!

Ben: In a lot of ceremonies youll see
people saluting. Its one of the practical
elements of Vodou. Youll see a large
portion of the ceremonies is saluting the
lwa. While they are saluting a lwa, like
Danbala or Loko or Ezili, do they visit the
same place in the peristil every time they
start a new round of salutations? For
instance, they salute the potomitan. They
salute the ountgi, the people who drum.
They salute the door of the djvo. They
salute each other, like the ounsi. They
salute the audience. Is this also
something that is the same in all Vodou?

Ongan Alisma: Its simple. I believe that if
you leave to come to my house today, the
first thing you do when you enter my
home is greet me. Well, its the same. The
ceremony is happening. They are about
to enter. Its me they ask to greet Loko.
Its a lwa I really like to greet. They ask
me to greet Loko. The first thing I need
to do is to present myself to the east, to
the west, which is to say to the four
cardinal points in the mystical language
and for me to acknowledge them. And,
today hes the one here, I have to greet
him. I have to serve him in that
ceremony.

Ben: That is around the potomitan?

Ongan Alisma: Uh huh, and youll see
that before I finish the salutation, if he
appreciates me he will come to me. Also
if it wasnt me he wanted in that
moment, if its you he wanted he will
come to you as I am saluting him. That is
how he can come on ongan Marcus.
It could come on ongan Emmanuel. It
could come on another also.

Ben: L ou pral prezante tt nou devan
ontgi, moun k ap bat tanbou yo, anpil
fwa w w ongan avk manbo yo pral
mete at. Yo pral beze t kmsi yo pral
f yon reverans devan ontgi. Ki sans ki
genyen dy sa, paske nou pa f sa devan
potomitan menm jan?

Ongan Alisma: Nou f l devan potomitan
menm jan.

Ben: Menm jan?

Ongan Alisma: Wi! Ou met ajenou devan
potomitan an epi w bo l pou w salye l. An
nou retounen nan menm kesyon an. De
menm ou rantre nan kay la; ou fin salye
papa w, ou dwe al salye manman. Sa di
osito ke w fin salye potomitan ou dwe al
salye ountgi paske

ountgi se poto kwen kay la ki pou
soutni potomitan an anv de sistm nan
e ke san ountgi potomitan an ap febli. Si
pa egzanp, si madanm ou ta tonbe l
mouri, timoun yo rete nan men w
slman, w ap bezwen on lt d, pa vr?
Ske ou pa kapab f travay la ou menm
sl. Se de menm tou, si ou pa ta la, ank,
madanm ou ap bezwen on lt moun ki
pou ede l pote chaj la. Se menm jan
ontgi a la pou l sipte potomitan an
anv de tout sa k ap ft de seremoni lwa
yo.

Ben: Se pati entegral sistm nan.

Ongan Alisma: Sa p ap deranje w si m di
w on bagay?

Ben: Non!

Ben: When you are presenting
yourselves in front of the ontgi, the
people who beat the drums, many times
youll see ongan and manbo place their
heads on the ground. They will kiss the
ground as if theyre revering the ontgi.
What is the meaning of this, because you
dont do this in front of the potomitan
the same way?

Ongan Alisma: We do it in front of the
potomitan the same way.

Ben: The same way?

Ongan Alisma: Yes! You place your knees
on the ground before the potomitan and
you kiss it to salute it. Let us to return to
the question. When you enter into the
house and you finish greeting your
father, you need to greet your mother.
That means the minute you finish
saluting the potomitan, you need to
salute the ontgi because the ontgi are
the corners of the house that supports
the potomitan relative to the system and
without the ontgi the potomitan would
be weak. If for example, your wife fell ill
and died, the children are left with you,
wont you need help? You cant do the
work by yourself. In the same sense, if
you werent here, your wife would need
another person to help her bear the
burden. The ontgi is here for the same
reason, to support the potomitan
relative to all that occurs in the
ceremonies of the lwa.

Ben: Its an integral part of the system.

Ongan Alisma: Will it disturb you if I tell
you something?

Ben: No!

Ongan Alisma: Nou genyen dezym
ongan sosyete a ki prezan. L w fin avk
mwen si w gen klke kesyon pou ta poze
li, li pr pou l ta reponn ou.

Ben: Wi, avk plezi. Msi! Donk, nou pale
sou potomitan ; nou pale sou ountgi.
Anpil fwa ou w ongan pral salye djvo a,
oubyen pt djvo a. Anpil moun ta
renmen konnen poukisa yo salye djvo a.
Ki sans li genyen; ki senbolis li genyen?

Ongan Alisma: Pou w pale mwen de
djvo ou pral pale m de on inisyason
kanzo. L n ap pale de seremoni, nan kad
seremoni an se tou nmal pou Lakou
salye pt onf. Rezon pou salye pt onf:
sa se on kesyon tr fasil. Menm ou menm
ou kapab reponn li. Se chanm lwa yo. Se
la lwa yo repoze yo l yo la. Se la ki biwo
yo pou yo chita pou yo f konsiltasyon
pou kelkeswa moun ki bezwen yo e pou
yo f travay pa yo osi. Al pandan m ap
f salitasyon mwen dwe salye pt onf a
pou m vin f yo konnen mwen nan kay
la.

Ben: Nou nan biwo lwa yo menm menm
kounye a la?

Ongan Alisma: Wi, kounye a la. Sa di se
andedan biwo lwa yo menm ke nou ye;
ke nou chita sou biwo yo menm.

Ben: Se la yo repoze? Lwa onf sa repoze
isi l pa g en seremoni oubyen?

Ongan Alisma: Non! Lwa a la l l bezwen
la oubyen l ou rele l. L mwen rele l,

Ongan Alisma: We have here the second
ongan of the society. When you are
finished with me, if you have a few
questions for him, hes ready to answer
you.

Ben: Yes, with pleasure. Thank you! Well,
we spoke of the potomitan; we spoke of
the ountgi. Many times youll see ongan
saluting the djvo, or the door of the
djvo. A lot of people would like to know
why they salute the djvo. What does it
mean; what symbolism does it have?

Ongan Alisma: To speak of the djvo, you
have to speak of the kanzo initiation.
When we are speaking of the ceremony,
in the context of the ceremony its
normal to salute the door of the onf.
The reason to salute the door of the onf:
that is a really easy question. Even you
can answer it. It is the room of the lwa.
Thats where the lwa rest when theyre
here. That is their office where they sit
and perform consultations for anyone
who needs them, and to do their work as
well. So, when Im doing salutations I
have to salute the door of the onf to let
them know that Im in the house.

Ben: Were really in the office of the lwa
right now?

Ongan Alisma: Yes, right now. That
means that were really inside the office
of the lwa; we are really sitting in their
office.

Ben: This is where they rest? Do the lwa
of this onf rest here whenever there is
no ceremony?

Ongan Alisma: No! The lwa is here when
it needs to be here, or when you call it.

mwen bezwen l. Mwen f apl avk li, li
vin la. Men lwa a patou.

Ben: Oke, li tout kote?

Ongan Alisma: Wi!

Ben: Sa ap mennen mwen nan yon
dezym kesyon. Gen moun ki pale sou
lwa ki nan dlo, lwa ki nan pyebwa,
pyebwa repozwa. Yo pale sou lwa nan
syl, anba t, lwa danse nan tt moun.
Donk pou Vodouwizan lwa a viv nan
lanati prensipalman. ske yo viv sou lt
plant? ske yo nan lt iniv? Ki kote yo
ye?

Ongan Alisma: Nou pa kapab di lwa a ni
isi, ni ltb; ni devan, ni dy. Slman
lwa a pami nou. Lwa a ap viv pami nou
tout.

Ben: Genyen moun tou ki pale sou lwa.
Chak moun gen yon lwa. Lt jou nou te
pale sou jan chak moun gen yon lwa k
pwotekt. Sa vle di chak moun gen yon
kalite lwa k ap veye egzistans moun li
jwenn, moun ki resevwa l. ske chak
moun gen yon lwa ki viv nan tt li, nan
k li, oubyen se on lwa ki viwonen l? Ki
kalite rap li genyen avk
moun?

Ongan Alisma: Si se pa on lwa ki ta f yon
chwa de ou menm pou w f travay sa w
ap f a, ou t ap gen lt bagay pou w ta f.
Se on lwa kanmenm ki f apl avk ou ki
pmt pou w sakrifye tan w pou w f
sakrifis de ou menm pou w f rechch
sou lwa. Ske gen yon bagay ki atire w de
lwa a oubyen se sa k rele apl. Ske gen
yon chwa anv de ou menm.
When I call it, I need it. I call upon it, and
it comes here. But, the lwa are
everywhere.

Ben: Okay, theyre everywhere?

Ongan Alisma: Yes!

Ben: That brings me to a second
question. There are people who speak of
lwa that are in the water, lwa that are in
the trees, resting trees. They speak of
lwa in the sky, in the ground, lwa
dancing in peoples heads. So for
Vodouist the lwa live, principally, in
nature. Do they live on other planets? Do
they live in other universes? Where are
they?

Ongan Alisma: We cant say the lwa are
either here nor there; neither in front,
neither behind. Only, the lwa are among
us all.

Ben: There are also people who speak of
the lwa. Each person has a lwa. The
other day we spoke on how each person
has lwa that protect. That means each
person has a kind of lwa thats watching
over the people it finds, the people who
receive it. Does each person have a lwa
that lives in his head, in his heart, or is it
a lwa that lives all around him? What
kind of relationship does it have with
people?

Ongan Alisma: If it wasnt a lwa who
chose you to do the work that youre
doing, youd have something else to do.
Its indeed a lwa that called on you that
allows for you to sacrifice your time, to
sacrifice yourself, to do research on lwa.
That means there is something that
attracts you to the lwa or that is called a
calling. That means there is a choice

Ben: ske w ta di gen yon bann tip apl
diferan nan Vodou?

Ongan Alisma: Anpil!

Ben: Dapre moun nan; dapre
destine l?

Ongan Alisma: Lwa a gen dwa f apl
avk ou. Men pandansetan [at the same
time] l f apl avk ou, li ta renmen w se
on dokt ki pral travay nan yon lopital ki
pral pran swen de moun pou bay moun
lavi. Se nan branch sa li vle w ye. Li gen
dwa f apl avk ou, li ta renmen ou se
on enjeny ki la pou egzekite plan, pou
konstwi wout, kay, tout bagay. Se pou sa
ke l chwazi w. Li gen dwa chwazi w tou
se pou w avoka. Li gen dwa chwazi w. Li
gen dwa chwazi w tou li voye w pou w
ale andedan Pwotestantis pou w al
aprann de sistm nan. Se on fason l l
vini sou ou menm talan sa l voye w al
kapte a l itilize l epi pou l pibliye l, pou l
konpare l a pa l la e pou l moutre w tout
sa ki pa bon andedan l e li menm tout sa
ki bon andedan l. Se sa f si w pran on
Bib avk mwen la m ap di w andedan
Nouvo Tstaman men sa ki bon yo ke yo
pa janm preche andan legliz: tout sa k
bon yo si yo preche andan legliz tout
fidl ap vire do yo kite legliz la. Paske y
ap w se on kesyon de Py psonl k
ap defann andedan legliz.

Ben: Donk, stadi lwa gen yon pakt
misyon diferan pou l voye moun f?

Ongan Alisma: Lwa a chwazi w. Li vle w s
on prezidan. L l a rive pou w prezidan
pa gen anyen k ap f w pa prezidan.

relative to you.

Ben: Would you say there are different
kinds of callings in Vodou?

Ongan Alisma: Many!

Ben: Based on the person; based on their
destiny?

Ongan Alisma: The lwa can call on you.
But at the same time, it would like you to
be a doctor who will work in a hospital
who would care for people to give
people life. Thats the field it wants you
to be in. It can call on you. I would like
you to be an engineer to be there to
execute plans, to construct roads,
houses, all sorts of things. Thats what he
chose you for. It can choose you, also, to
be a lawyer. It can choose you. It can
choose you, also, to send you inside of
Protestantism to learn about the system.
That way, when it rides you, itll use that
talent it sent you to capture to publicize
it, to compare it with its own [religion]
so it can show you all thats bad in it and
all thats good in it. Thats why if you
take up the Bible with me, Ill tell you
inside of the New testament here is the
good that they never preach inside of the
church: if they preach all the good things,
all the loyals will turn their backs and
leave the church. Because, they will see
its a question of personal interests that
are being defended inside of the church.

Ben: So, that means the lwa sends people
on a bunch of different missions?

Ongan Alisma: The lwa chooses you. It
wants you to be a president. When the
time comes for you to be president,
theres nothing that stop you from being
president.

Ben: ske ou panse gen prezidan
Ayisyen lwa mete yo la? Tankou anpil
moun di Aristid se yon moun ki te gen
kontak avk lwa. Sa w w nan sa?

Ongan Alisma: Mwen p ap di w wi lwa
mete yon prezidan la paske mwen vle di
w on bagay ke mwen ka pwouve. Men,
majorite prezidan dan lemond
mistik. Se pa Ayiti non, men majorite
prezidan dan le mond mistik. [...] ke li te
pran pouvwa a dlo [....] apre l l fin chita
sou chz la, li w li jije de bon, ilfoke l f
on deplase [he has to make an effort]. Li
toujou gen on demach pou l mete dey,
chche ki kote ki bon an pou l w se
andedan Sosyete Linto ki bon e pou l
mande Sosyete Linto yon konsiltasyon
an prive.

Ben: Moun ki gen pouvwa chche
konsiltasyon sa yo?

Ongan Alisma: Epi kounye a prezidan an
mete sou li ke l konnen. Li asire li. Non
slman li genyen bdigadde sekirite
pou okenn delenkan pa arive tire sou
limen li genyen yon bdigad nan li
menm ke psonn pa kapab w kontre
tout lt malvzasyon yo.

Ben: Mwen ta renmen konnen sa ou
kapab di sou wl disiplin avk ld nan
Vodou. Pa egzanp, mwen w ou se on
ongan ki apresye, ki mande on jan
disiplin avk ld. ske se tipik avk
ongan, manbo yo?

Part II

Ben: Nou t ap pale sou wl disiplin avk
ld nan Vodou epi nan jan ou menm ou

Ben: Do you think there are Haitian
presidents who were placed by the lwa?
For instance, people say Aristide is a
person who was in contact with the lwa.
What do you think of this?

Ongan Alisma: I wont tell you yes Lwa
placed a president because I want to tell
you things I can prove. But, the majority
of presidents in the world are mystical.
Not just Haiti but, the majority of
presidents in the world are mystical. [...]
whether he took power by water [....]
after hes sat in the chair, he sees that
hell judge well if he makes an effort. He
always has a process to go through. Hell
look for a good place and hell see that
its inside of Socit Linto; hell ask
Socit Linto for a private consultation.

Ben: People in power search for these
consultations?

Ongan Alisma: And then, the president
puts on as if he knows. Hes assured. Not
only does he have bodyguardssecurity
so no delinquent comes to shoot at
himbut he has a bodyguard inside of
himself that no one can see who can
keep an eye out regarding all
misconduct.

Ben: I would like to know what you can
say on the role that discipline and order
in Vodou. For example, I see that you are
an ongan who appreciates, who asks for
a certain type of discipline and order. Is
that typical of the ongan, the manbo?

Part II

Ben: We were speaking on the role of
discipline and order in Vodou and on

f seremoni. Ki kote kilti disiplin pa w la
soti? M pa w sa tout kote. Lt kote
kmanse nenpt l. Yo kmanse ta, nan
nwit. Men sanble isit ou kmanse nan
yon l presi epi w kontinye solidman.

Ongan Alisma: Anba peristil kote ke
mwen leve, m leve jwenn disiplin,
prensip, resp. L ke yon moun ap
deplase kite lakay li, li konnen l ap
deplase a tl l pou l retounen a tl l. Ou
dwe respekte sa paske moun nan li
deplase sot lakay li a se yon sakrifis ke l
f pou l asiste seremoni an epi se l sa l
pral vin chita f de twazdtan san anyen.
Li pa posib. Konsa gen yon moun ki
kapab deplase l di oke l ap vin kouvri
indtan de seremoni an epi l l vini
seremoni an pral deplase nan katrdtan.
Ou te di l ap kmanse a tl l; ou dwe
respekte l a. L sa lwa a ba ou plis
resp. Tout kote ou w ki manke resp,
prensip, disiplin pou lwa a, yo menm yo
rann tt yo ap soufri. Yo rann tt yo ap
trennen. Jan w svi lwa w se konsa lwa w
svi avk ou. Ou svi lwa w pwp, li svi
w pwp. Ou svi lwa w an grandyoz, li
svi av w an grandyoz. Ou svi avk li
san disiplin, li svi av w san disiplin. Pa
etone tou, moun sa pral gen on pwoblm
e se lwa ki kapab ede li. Nan moman an,
lwa a an reta.

Ben: Ou soti kilti sa nan fanmi pa w, nan
men papa w?

Ongan Alisma: Wi!

Ben: Nan Gonayiv ou kapab jwenn
peristil ki pral kenbe prensip sa avk lt
how you yourself perform ceremonies.
Where does your culture of discipline
come from? I dont see that everywhere.
Other places start at anytime. They start
late, at night. But, it appears that here
you start at a specific time and you
solidly continue.

Ongan Alisma: Under the peristil, where
I was raised with discipline, principles,
respect. When someone leaves their
home, they know theyll leave at a
certain time to return at a certain time.
You have to respect that because the
person sacrificed and left home to attend
the ceremony and thats when hell come
and sit for three hours needlessly. Its
not possible. Also, a person can come
and say hell stay for an hour of the
ceremony and then when he comes, the
ceremony starts in four hours. You said
it would start at a particular time; you
have to respect that. This way you are
more respected by the lwa. Everywhere
you see that lacks respect, principle,
discipline for the lwa, they cause
themselves suffering. They cause
themselves to drag behind. How you
serve your lwa is how the lwa function
with you. You serve your lwa cleanly, itll
serve you cleanly. You serve your lwa
grandiosely; itll serve you grandiosely.
You serve it without discipline; itll serve
you without discipline. Also dont be
surprised that this person will have a
problem and its the lwa that can help
him. In the moment, the lwa is tardy.

Ben: You got this culture from your
family, your father?

Ongan Alisma: Yes!

Ben: In Gonaves can you find peristil
that hold this principal along with others

ki pa kenbe l tou depan de ongan ki
responsab li?

Ongan Alisma: Wi, tou depan de ongan ki
responsab li.

Ben: M vle poze kk ti kesyon sou rit
Vodouwizan yo. Tankou ou konn f rit
Rada isit. Ou konn genyen rit Petwo,
Kongo e gen lt ank tankou rit Gede.
Gen kk moun ki di Gede f pati on rit
pou kont li. ske ou w l menm jan? ske
gen lt rit ank ki f pati sistm pa w?

Ongan Alisma: Wi, genyen rit, apr Rada:
Petwo, Kongo, Nago, Dawomen, Banda,
Yanvalou. Tout sti andedan sistm nan.

Ben: Chak genyen yon seremoni ki pou
yo?

Ongan Alisma: Diferan!

Ben: Nan onf pa w la w kenbe yo tout?

Ongan Alisma: Tout!

Ben: ske gen lt onf ki genyen lt rit ki
pa f pati rit ou itilize yo?

Ongan Alisma: Wi, paske andedan
abitasyon Gonayiv [kote ke] nou genyen
gran Lakou Souvnans, gran Lakou Soukri
Danach, gran Lakou Badjo Kidi, gran
Lakou Dewonvil. Andedan Dewonvil ou
jwenn Banda, andedan Zantray. Andedan
Mapou ou jwenn Lakou Badjo [...].
Andedan Soukri Danach ou jwenn
nasyon Kongo. Andedan lakou Souvnans
ou jwenn nasyon Dawomen. Tout
that dont, depending on the ongan
responsible for it?

Ongan Alisma: Wi, it all depends on the
ongan whos responsible for it.

Ben: I would like to ask some questions
on the rites of the Vodouists. For
instance, you hold the Rada rite here.
You sometimes hold the Petwo rite,
Kongo and there are others like Gede.
There are some peopel who say Gede is
part of its own rite. Do you see it the
same way? Are there other rites that are
part of your system?

Ongan Alisma: Yes, there are rites, after
Rada: Petwo, Kongo, Nago, Dawomen,
Banda, and Yanvalou. All come from
inside of the system.

Ben: Each has its own ceremony?

Ongan Alisma: Different!

Ben: In your onf do you observe them
all?

Ongan Alisma: All!

Ben: Are there other onf that have
other rites that do not belong to the rites
you utilize?

Ongan Alisma: Yes, because inside of the
Gonayiv communities we have the great
Lakou Souvnans, the great Lakou Soukri
Danach, the great Lakou Badjo Kidi, the
great Lakou Dewonvil. Inside of
Dewonvil you find Banda, within the
Zantray organization. Inside Mapou you
find Lakou Badjo [...]. Inside Soukri
Danach you find the Kongo mation.
Inside Lakou Souvnans, you find the

ozalantou yo ou jwenn yon Petwo ki
woule sou Rada ke yo rele li Ti Joslin. Se
Vodou sa ki pi dous.

Ben: L ou di se yon Petwo ki woule sou
Rada?

Ongan Alisma: Marye avk Rada, yo rele l
ti Joslin. L ou menm ki konn danse
Petwo, mwen menm ki konn danse Rada,
avk ongan Makis ki konn danse Petwo,
ki konn danse Rada, ske se de bagay
diferan.

Ben: L moun ki f pati tradisyon Ti
Joslin pral ganize yon seremoni, ske yo
pral kanmenm kenbe pati Rada separe
avk Petwo?

Ongan Alisma: Vodou a pa gen
distenksyon; youn ede lt.

Ben: Men sa m te vle mande se depi nou
kmanse sou rit Rada ske sa dire pou
yon bon ti moman avan kmansman rit
Petwo a oubyen ske moun sa yo
konbine rit Petwo avk Rada an menm
tan? Tankou yon lwa Rada epi yon lwa
Petwo...

Ongan Alisma: Non, w ap w moun sa yo
pa ale pa d. Li pa ale pa d,
esansylman yo djs kmanse
seremoni an. Yo salye gran chemen.
Yo salye kafou epi yo antre nan Papa
Legba. Yo salye Marasa, l yo soti nan
Marasa kote yo tonbe yo tonbe.

Ben: Pa egzanp ou di Souvans se yon
peristil ki svi avk rit Dawomen. ske
moun ki svi avk rit Banda, pa egzanp,
ske yo kapab svi avk kk rit
Dawomen nation. All around you find a
Petwo that is rolled up with Rada that
they call Ti Joslin. That is the sweetest
Vodou.

Ben: What do you mean when you say a
Petwo that rolled up with Rada?

Ongan Alisma: Married with Rada, they
call it Ti Joslin. You, who knows how to
dance Petwo, and me, who knows how to
dance Rada, and ongan Marcus who
knows how to dance Petwo and Rada
so it is two different things.

Ben: When the people who participate in
the Ti Joslin tradition are going to
organize a ceremony, do they indeed
keep the Rada part separate from Petwo.

Ongan Alisma: Vodou has no
distinctions; one helps the other.

Ben: But what I wanted to ask was, when
you start on the Rada rite does that last
for a good moment before the
commencement of the Petwo rite or do
those people combine the Petwo rite
with the Rada at the same time. For
instance, one lwa Rada and one lwa
Petwo....

Ongan Alisma: No, youll see those
people dont go in order. Its not in
order; essentially they just start the
ceremony. They salute the great
pathway. They salute the crossroad and
they enter into Papa Legba. They salute
Marasa. When they leave Marasa theyll
end wherever they end.

Ben: For example, you say Souvnans is a
peristil that uses the Dawomen rite. Do
the people who use the Banda rite, for
example, use the Dawomen rite when

Dawomen l yo f seremoni oubyen ske
yo toujou f Banda san yo pa melanje
avk Dawomen?

Ongan Alisma: W ap jwenn moun nan
lakou Banda ki danse andedan
Dawomen. W ap jwenn moun andedan
Dawomen ki danse andedan Banda ki
svi tout lwa sa yo ansanm. W ap w
moun sa f plizy abiman pou l ft
Souvnans lan e l f plizy abiman pou l
ft Banda a. Ou gen dwa on sl moun nan
svi tout Lakou yo alafwa. Dat ft yo pa
tonbe menm l. Chak lwa sa yo jwenn
yon wl nan lavi nou.

Ben: M konprann, men rit Dawomen pa t
deplase al nan peristil ki konn svi avk
rit Banda? Se moun ki f pati peristil
Souvnans yo pral...?

Ongan Alisma: Se pa rit la ki deplase non.
Se nou menm, eleman k ap svi lwa yo ki
deplase al ede on lt fr, yon lt s. De
menm ou w l isit Ozetazini. Ou ka w
plizy seremoni w pase w w mwen. Se
paske yo envite mwen al sipte yo.
Rezon poukisa yo envite mwen: nan
moman an yo fin depanse kb yo vre,
menm si se lwa ki te bay kb la pou yo f
seremoni, yo ta renmen lwa a byen
resevwa.
Ou gen dwa w nan moman seremoni sa
lwa a y ap f ft la pou li a se sou mwen l
vini l resevwa. Se konsa l gen dwa vin
sou ou tou li resevwa. Li gen dwa vin sou
Ongan Emanyl li resevwa. Li gen dwa
vin sou Ongan Makis li resevwa. Ske yo
bezwen tout moun. Se sa k f yo pa f
distenksyon andedan Vodou.

Ben: Depi mwen f lekti nan liv ki pale
they have ceremonies or do they always
do Banda without mixing it with
Dawomen?

Ongan Alisma: Youll find people in the
Banda yards who dance inside of
Dawomen. Youll find people inside of
Dawomen who danse inside of Banda
who serve all of those lwa together.
Youll see that that person has multiple
outfits for the Souvnans party and
multiple outfits for the Banda party.
There can be one person serving all the
yards at the same time. The celebrations
dont occur on the same dates. Each of
these lwa have a role in our lives.

Ben: I understand, but the Dawomen rite
doesnt leave and go to the peristil that
uses the Banda rite? Is it the people who
participate in the Souvnans peristil who
will....?

Ongan Alisma: It isnt the rite that leaves.
It is us: the people serving the lwa who
leave to assist another brother, another
sister. Its the same here in the United
Sates. Youll see me at multiple
ceremonies. This is because they invite
me to come support them. The reason
why they invite me is because when they
finish spending their money, even if its
the lwa that provided the money for the
ceremony, they would like the lwa to be
well received. You could see that during
this ceremony, the lwa they are throwing
the party for come on me to be received.
It could also come on you to be received.
It could come on ongan Emmanuel to be
received. It could come on ongan Marcus
to be received. So, they need everyone.
That is the reason why they dont
differentiate in Vodou.

Ben: When I read books that discuss

sou Vodou ayisyen, depi ou mache nan
lari nan Ayiti oubyen nan Dyaspora w
kmanse tande moun pale mal sou
fenomn Bizango avk Chanpwl.
Poukisa gen yon polemik konsa pou
Bizango? Kisa yo f ki atire tout atansyon
sa?

Ongan Alisma: Polemik ki kapab genyen
antre Vodouwizan avk Bizango, se sa w
vle di mwen?

Ben: Chch pafwa konn di, oubyen
moun nan larikapab Ayisyen, kapab pa
Vodouwizan, yo kapab Pwotestan, yo
kapab pa svi lwamen, gen yon sten
repitasyon Bizango genyen.

Ongan Alisma: Oke, Pwotestan yo gen
yon chaj yo lage sou do Bizango ki kapab
pmt pou yo w si yo kapab diskalifye
Bizango a. Men se pa tout ongan e tout
bk ki f pati Bizango a.
Bizango se yon sekt andedan rit mistik
la men ki distansye l avk on sten de
Ongan, on sten de manbo, on sten de
bk osi. Yon moun vle antre nan rit
Bizango a, ou antre. Ou pa vle antre, ou
pa antre. Se menm jan, andedan
Pwotestan. Ou jwenn Batis, Advantis,
Temwenn Jewova, Mrmon...

Ben: Se jis on lt kalite chemen disponib.

Ongan Alisma: Al yo rele tout
Pwotestan. Yo rele tout Levanjil. Men
ske Advantis se Legliz de Dye? ske
Mrmon se
legliz Batis? Y ap svi menm Bondye a
wi, men yo diferansye tt pa yo e yo pa f
zaf yo menm jan.

Haitian Vodou, when you walk in the
streets of Haiti or in the diaspora you
start to hear people speak ill of the
Bizango and Chanpwl phenomenon.
Why is there such a polemic against
Bizango? What do they do that to attract
all this attention?

Ongan Alisma: The polemic that exists
between Vodouwizan and Bizango, is
that what you mean to say?

Ben: Researchers sometimes say, or
people in the streetsHaitians, non
Vodouists, they may be Protestants,
people who dont serve the lwa
Bizango has a certain reputation.

Ongan Alisma: Okay, the Protestants
have an accusation burden that they
place on the back of Bizango that allows
for them to disqualify Bizango. But, it
isnt all ongan and all bk who
participate in Bizango. Bizango is a
sector in the mystical rite, but its distant
from certain ongan, certain manbo, and
also certain bk. If a person wants to
enter into the Bizango rite, they can
enter. If you dont want to enter, you
dont have to enter. Its the same inside
of Protestantism. Youll find Baptists,
Adventist, Jehovahs Witnesses, and
Mormons.

Ben: Its just another available path.

Ongan Alisma: Consequently they call
them all Protestants. They call them all
Evangelists. But, is Adventism the
Church of God? Is Mormonism the
Baptist Church? Yes, they are serving the
same God but they differentiate
themselves and they dont handle their
affairs in the same way.


Ben: ske w konnen kk detay sou
jijman Bizango konn f? Tankou, Rachl
Bovwa te ekri yon liv ki rele Savalou E e
nan liv sase yon liv kreyl sou Vodou
ki enteresan tout bonli di lontan km
pa te gen bon sistm jistis an Ayiti,
oubyen te manke tribinal, sitou andey
nan zn riral, Bizango te gen travay jije
moun ki f krim oubyen moun ki f adilt
oubyen moun ki vl kabrit, eksetera.
Moun gen dwa ale devan jij Bizango pou
akize moun sa depi li sispk li te f yon
krim. Ou konn tande pale de fonksyon
Bizango jijman sa jounen jodi oubyen
ske w panse se on bagay ki fini?

Ongan Alisma: Oke, pa presizeman
Bizango: sa a lakay tout Vodouwizan. Se
pa on kesyon ni Bizango, ni Sanpwl. Si,
pa egzanp, ou posede yon sl bf ou
mare bf la nan yon jaden. Se jaden pa w.
Depi dizan w ap gade bf ou se la w
toujou mare yo. Yon bon jou w leve w al
nan jaden an. W al chanje bf ou epi w
retire l kote k pa gen manje mete l lt
kote k gen manje. Ou mennen l al bw
dlo osi epi w pa w bf la. L w gade li
pa kase kd la. Ske yo pran n. Ou f
rechch patou ou pa jwenn bf la.

W al kote chf seksyon zn nan, oubyen
jij de p zn nan. Yo f konsta pou ou; yo
pa w bf la. Men ki jistis yon jij de p ka
mete pou ou anvr de on af konsa?
Paske, yo pa w psonn ki pran bf la e w
pa jwenn bf la. Men si w se Vodouwizan
ou toujou gen on wch oubyen yon
pyebwa kote w sispk lwa w la pou w al
f on demann pou w di bf mwen an
Ben: Do you know any details on
judgements passed by Bizango? For
instance, Rachel Beauvoir wrote a book
called Savalou E and in that bookits a
Creole book on Vodou that is thoroughly
interestingshe says that, in the past,
since there wasnt a good judicial system
in Haiti, or there were no tribunals,
especially in the country in rural areas,
Bizango was responsible for judging
people whod committed crimes or
people whod committed adultery or
people whod stolen goats, etcetera.
People could go before the Bizango judge
to accuse a person when they suspected
theyd committed a crime. Do you hear
talk of this judicial function of the
Bizango nowadays or do you think thats
something of the past?

Ongan Alisma: Okay, not precisely
Bizango: that is at the heart of all Vodou.
Its not a question of Bizango or Sanpwl.
If, for example, you own a single cow and
you tie the cow in a field. Its your field.
For ten years youve been watching your
cow, youve always tied him here. One
particular day you wake and go to the
field. You go to change your cow and you
remove it from where there is no food
and place it somewhere else with food.
You bring it to drink water and you dont
see the cow. When you look it didnt
break the cord. So they took it. You
search all around and you dont find the
cow.
You go to the section chief of the area, or
the judge of the area. They conduct an
investigation for you; they dont see the
cow. But, what justice can a judge of
peace give to you relative to something
like this? Because they couldnt find the
person who took the cow and you didnt
find the cow. But, if you are a Vodouist,
you always have a rock or a tree where

mwen redi anpil pou li pou mwen
posede l. Mwen kite l la an ka de
emdjensi si pitit mwen malad pou m
vann li pou m jwenn, pou m peye dokt.
Si madanm mwen malad, e mwen menm
osi si youn ta tonbe mouri pou m jwenn
li. Depi m gen bf la yon vwazinaj p ap p
prete mwen de twasan dola. Men si m pa
gen bf kman m ap f remt li? Yo pa
fye pou yo ta prete m. Osito ke w al pote
lwa a plent de bf ou a ke w pdi a yo pr
pou yo chche moun ki pran bf la. Men
moun sa ki gentan vann bf la, kb sa pa
egziste ank. Kman lwa a pral satisf
w? Pou lwa a satisf w, li atake moun nan
epi pou moun nan di o gade se mwen
menm ki te pran bf Benn nan, m vann li
gad kman m ap mouri pou bf la. Pou
tout paran w konnen rezon ki koz ou
mouri: pou yo pa an dout. Se jistis sa ki
genyen andedan Vodou.

Ben: Donk moun ki viktim yon vl, pa
egzanp, li kapab al chche....

Ongan Alisma: Se pa slman vl.

Ben: Nenpt krim, enjistis?

Ongan Alisma: Tankou yon bagay yo vin
moutre Ayisyen tou dnyman la sou
gouvnman Aristid la yo vin moutre
Ayisyen f kidnaping. L m ap gade, m
gen on moun mwen yo pran n; yo
kidnape l. Yo mande mwen senksanmil
dola pou mwen peye. Mwen pa gen
senksanmil dola pou mwen peye. Y arive
tiye moun nan. M t ap travay depi
ventan, depi trantan pou mwen pouse on
timoun lekl epi kounye a la li fin tmine
etid li mwen voye l a inivsite epi se
lemoman on moun pran n li kidnape l
pou li mande m senksanmil dola
you suspect your lwa resides to make a
request: to say I worked hard for my
cow, to own it. I left it here in case of
emergency, if my child is sick for me to
sell it in order to pay the doctor. If my
wife is sick, and me also, if one fell ill for
me to have the cow ready. If I have the
cow, a neighbor wont hesitate to loan
me two or three hundred dollars. But, if I
dont have a cow, how will I repay it?
Theyre not confident to lend me money.
Upon reporting your lost cow to the
authorities, theyre ready to search for
the person who took the cow. But, this
person who already sold the cow, that
money no longer exists. How will the lwa
satisfy you? For the lwa to satisfy you
they will attack the person and the
person will say oh it was I who took
Bens cow, I sold it, look how I am dying
for it. Your parents will know the cause
of your death; they wont be in doubt.
Thats the justice that exists in Vodou.

Ben: So people who become victims of a
theft, for example, they can look

Ongan Alisma: Its not only theft.

Ben: Any crime, injustice?

Ongan Alisma: For instance, they were
recently showing Haitians, during the
Aristide administration, Haitians who
were kidnaping. When I was watching,
there was a friend of mine taken; they
kidnapped him. They asked me to pay
five hundred thousand dollars. I dont
have five hundred thousand dollars.
They wound up killing the person. Ive
been working for twenty years, for thirty
years to send a child to school and now
that hes finished his studies, I send him
to university and thats the moment
when a person takes him and kidnaps

tandiske m pa kapab jwenn senksan
goud pou m ta peye. Yo ban m yon dle
pou mwen bay kb sa. Mwen pa gen kb
la; yo tiye pitit mwen. Ske yo kraze tout
kouraj mwen. Yo elimine tout travay
mwen te f pandan trantan an nan on
fraksyon d segond. Kounye a ske m ap
gade sa konsa? Ki jij de p, komis,
oubyen ki enstans ki ka ba w jistis anvr
on dosye konsa? Yo pa konn kidnap a.
Yo pa jwenn li. Yo pa konn ki moun. Men
l m al devan lwa m yo, lwa m y ap
chche konn ki moun.

Ben: Ongan tou? Pa egzanp, on moun ki
pa ongan, ou pral chche d ongan ki
pral konsilte avk lwa l yo pou chche
moun ki te f krim nan?

Ongan Alisma: Wi! Non slman sa, si pa
egzanp ou vin kote m, on pitit pa w sa
rive oubyen on pwoblm ki rive w, lwa m
yo konsilte lwa pa w. Ou pa an konesans
pou lwa ou yo eksplike w men sa k pase
a men pa rap de kominikasyon
spiritwl yo, yo menm yo pral jwenn
jistis pa w la epi yo pote l ba ou.

Ben: Gen ka kote yo pral konnen ki moun
ki te f krim nan epi Vodouwizan pral
chche moun ki te f krim nan pou jije l?

Ongan Alisma: L se lwa a gen de jijman
lwa a tou f l pou ou. Li pa al chche
moun nan l vin f l li tou f jijman an
paske l li lage zen l nan dlo pwason ki
ant a se li k ap pran. L yo lage zen y ap
peche nan dlo. Se pa tout pwason k ap
pran nan zen sa. Pwason k ne pou l pran
nan jou a se li k ap pran. Sa k pa ne pou
yo pran nan jou sa ap pati lwen. Men yo
him and asks me for five hundred
thousand dollars while I cant pay five
hundred dollars. They give me a deadline
to come up with the money. I dont have
the money; they kill my child. They
destroyed all my courage. They
destroyed all the work I did over thirty
years in a fraction of a second. Now, am I
to do nothing? What judge, prosecutors,
or what instance will be able to give you
justice relative to such a case? They dont
know the kidnapper. They cant find him.
They dont know the person. But, when I
go before my lwa, my lwa will search for
the person.

Ben: Ongan also? For example, a person
whos not an ongan, will you search for
the help of an ongan wholl consult his
lwa to find the person who committed
the crime?

Ongan Alisma: Yes! Not only that, if for
example you come to me because that
happened to a child of yours, my lwa will
consult your lwa. You arent conscious
for your lwa to explain to you what
happened but by reports of spiritual
communication, they themselves will
find your justice and they will bring it to
you.
Ben: Are there cases where theyll find
out who committed the crime and then
Vodouists will search for the person who
committed the crime to put him to trial?

Ongan Alisma: When its the lwa: there
are judgements the lwa mete out for you.
It doesnt search for the person to do it,
it just passes judgement because when it
drops the hook in the water the guilty
fish is the one caught. When they drop
the hook theyre fishing in water. Not
every fish will be caught in this hook.
The fish thats born to be caught that day

p ap janm pran nan zen sa. Ebyen
andedan sekt Vodou a ank gen on lt
bagay ki rele lwil maskreti. Lwil
maskreti a yo f l avk grenn maskreti.
Lwil sa, depi yo poze l tou, l ap ba w jistis
ou.

Ben: Se on lwil yo svi avk li nan kalite
jijman sa yo oubyen...?

Ongan Alisma: Lwil sa tout moun svi
avk li. Past, Levanjiltout moun svi
av l. Lontan se avk li yo te konn
penyen timoun pou voye yo lekl. Ou
grese cheve timoun nan pou w penyen li
pou w voye l lekl. Lwil sa se on lwil
jistis.

Ben: M toujou tande moun an Ayiti pale
de li.

Ongan Alisma: Jistis sa pa gen pary.
Jistis sa se pi mey jistis ki te ka egziste
dan lemond. Pa bliye, pa janm gen on
peyi, pa janm gen on nasyon ki gen on
jistis sanpousan. Ou ka demanti m sou w
vle. Pa gen on peyi dan lemond ki gen
yon jistis sanpousan. Se on kesyon de la
rezon pif e toujou mey. Pa etone m
pral gen jijman avk yon milyad epi m
pral gen rezon sou li, klkeswa peyi a. Y
ap f on jan kanmenm. Olye pou m ta gen
rezon yo prefere di m kite sa. Men a lwil
la trilyad, bilyad, milyad m ap frape
pt ou a kanmenm pou l di jistis rantre
lakay ou jodi a pou l pote jistis la bay
nenpt malere a.

Ben: Pou w jwenn rezilta sa, kijan yo pral
svi avk lwil la?

will be the one caught. Those that arent
born to be caught that day will go far off.
They will not be caught in that hook.
Well inside of the Vodou sector there is
something else called castor oil [oil of
Palma Christi]. They make oil of Palma
Christi with castor seeds. This oil, if they
also place it, itll give you justice.

Ben: Is it an oil they use in that type of
judgement or....?

Ongan Alisma: This oil everybody uses it.
Preachers, evangelicalseverybody
uses it. Long ago they used it to groom
childrens hair to send them to school.
You grease the hair of the child in order
to comb it to send them to school. This
oil is justice oil.

Ben: I always hear people in Haiti speak
of it.

Ongan Alisma: This justice has no equal.
This justice is the best justice that exists
in the world. Dont forget, there has
never been a country; there has never
been a nation that has perfect justice.
You can deny it if you want. There isnt a
country in the world that has a hundred
percent justice. Its a matter of the
opinion of the strongest which is the
best. Dont be surprised if I go to trial
with a millionaire and its ruled in my
favor, whichever country. Theyll find a
way nonetheless. Rather than let me be
right theyd prefer to tell me to let it go.
But with the oil trillionaire, billionaire,
millionaire, Im knocking on your door
anyway for justice to come in your home
today to bring justice to any poor person.

Ben: To get this result, how will they use
the oil?


Ongan Alisma: Lwil sa yo gen moun pou
sa menm, ki f lwil la. Li pran lwil lajan
li konpoze li li mete l nan yon ti
chody epi pou l mete men sou li pou l
limen li. Li dmi devan l. Li pran de st a
dist jou pou l kondwi li. Tankou l f on
penitans sou pt sa ki ft la.

Ben: Sou pt sa ki ft la?

Ongan Alisma: Pou l jwenn jistis!

Ben: Sa kapab pran dist jou. Oke, sa se
on gwo devouman li bezwen montre tou
pou l jwenn rezilta.

Ongan Alisma: L w fini w al ranvwaye l
nan yon rivy dlo k ap desann epi pou
dlo ede w chche jwenn jistis la.

Ben: Pou ou menm kijan w w Vodou ap
evolye nan lemond? Ki kote l prale? Ki
kote l soti? ske l ap monte? ske l ap
desann? Kijan w w
tradisyon an?

Ongan Alisma: Evolisyon Vodou ap
monte chak jou. De jou an jou l ap monte
pi plis. L ap monte pi wo e l ap f
chemen.

Ben: Si ou konpare epk l ou te timoun
avk jounen jodi a an Ayitimwen
mande sa paske anpil chch konn di
Pwotestantis anpil an Ayiti epi gen kk
moun ki panse gen mwens Vodouwizan.
Pa gen moun ki al f sondaj. Konsa se
estimasyon moun ap f.

Ongan Alisma: Se on bagay mwen ta
renmen k pou ft. Mwen rete kw sondaj
maten Vodouwizan genyen, sondaj a
midi Vodouwizan genyen, sondaj asw
Ongan Alisma: They have people who do
this oil especially. He takes the oilthe
way he composes ithe places it in a
small boiler and then he puts hands on it
and lights it. He sleeps in front of it. It
takes from seven to seventeen days for
him to guide it. As if he was doing
penance for this loss that occured.

Ben: On this loss that occured?

Ongan Alisma: For him to find justice!

Ben: That can take seventeen days. Okay,
he has to show great dedication to get
results.

Ongan Alisma: When youre finished
youll expel it in a river thats descending
and the water will search and find
justice.

Ben: For you, how do you see Vodou
evolving in the world? Where is it going?
Where does it come from? Is it growing?
Is it decreasing? How do you see the
tradition?

Ongan Alisma: The evolution of Vodou is
growing everyday. Each day it grows
more. Its growing higher and its making
pathways.

Ben: If you compare the era of when you
were a child with today in HaitiI ask
this because a lot of researchers say
Protestantism is big in Haiti and there
are some people who think there are less
Vodouists. No one has done a survey. So
people are estimating.

Ongan Alisma: Its something I would
like to happen. I believe that Vodouists
win morning surveys, Vodouists win
afternoon surveys, Vodouists win

Vodouwizan genyen. Kiys ki
Pwotestan? Pa bliye Vodou se kilti nou e
relijyon nou an menm tan. Paske pa bliye
nou se desandan Afriken. Nou ne nan
Vodou. Pwotestan se yon bagay ki vin
antre an dizwitsankenz. Blan an pote ba
nou. Yo ba nou ble pou nou aksepte l. Yo
ba nou sinistre [food aid] pou nou
aksepte l. Yo ba nou pp pou nou
aksepte l. Al ou kw ke psonn ka retire
san w pou yo di w met dlo ranplase l?
Non, mwen bezwen dlo w la pou m svi.
Mwen bezwen dlo w la pou m bw.
Mwen oblije pran l nan men w. Men, m p
ap janm retire san m vrman. M a lave
men m avk li. M a lave vizaj mwen avk
li. Mwen gen dwa itilize l pou mwen
benyen paske m bezwen l. Asavwa ke m
bezwen l, pou m jwenn li nan men w m
oblije koube anba w de tout sa ke pou di
m yo. M aksepte yo pou mwen jwenn dlo
sa pou m svi asavwa ke k a pa ka viv
san li menm. Men san m nan ap rete a
mwen menm. Ositou ke m retire san
ske m pa viv ank. M pa nan lavi ank.
Vodou a se san nou.

Ben: Nan sans sa, nan anpil legliz
Pwotestan ou gen fo konvti. Se sa w ap
di?

Ongan Alisma: L w ap pale de fo
konvti, mo sa m pa t ap di l non. Se ou ki
di li. Fo konvti pa a sanpousan. De
menm past a k ap anrichi tt li andedan
legliz laosito ke l gen yon maladi ki
deplase konpetans lili mache kay tout
dokt pa ka jwenn solisyon pou li. L ap di
manman m, gade, f m viv. Ou konprann?
Yon bon jou a minwi yo pran li, y al
chche solisyon. Yo kase fy kouvri sa. Sa
rete la.

evening surveys Vodouists. Who are
Protestants? Do not forget Vodou is our
culture and our religion at the same
time. Dont forget we are descendents of
Africans. Were born in Vodou.
Protestantism is something that entered
in eighteen fifteen. The foreigners
brought it to us. They gave us food aid so
we could accept it. They gave us used
clothes so we could accept it. Thus do
you believe that anyone could remove
your blood and tell you to replace it with
water? No, I need your water to use. I
need your water to drink. Im obliged to
take to from you. But, I will never really
remove my blood. Ill wash my hands
with the water. I wash my face with it.
I have the right to use it to shower
because I need it. Seeing as how I need it,
to get it from you I have to bow down to
all that you tell me. I accept them so I can
have this water to use because the body
cannot live without it. But, my blood will
stay with me. The minute I remove my
blood I will stop living. I will no longer
be alive. Vodou is our blood.

Ben: In that sense, in a lot of Protestant
churches you have false converts. Is that
what youre saying?

Ongan Alisma: When you say false
convert, I wouldnt say that. Youre the
one who said it. False converts are not at
a hundred percent. The same pastor
whos enriching himself in the church
the minute he has an illness that
surpasses his capabilitieshe visits all
the doctors and cant find a solution.
Hell say my mother, look, I have to live.
Do you understand? One day at midnight
they take him, they go in search of a
solution. They break leaves and cover
this. This stays hidden.


Ben: Li pral chche d Vodouwizan, on
ongan ?

Ongan Alisma: Se menm jan an tou w ap
jwenn anpil moun ki swadizan
Vodouwizan. Men ki pa Vodouwizan
pwp, ki Vodouwizan sal; ki f d zak, d
krim malont e k ap chche kouvti tou k
al konvti. Osito ke yo aksepte Jezi km
sov yo, peche yo padone. Se sa f w ap
w andedan legliz se anpil ti gran moun
ki genyen. Majorite andan legliz se
granmoun.

Ben: Sa mwen w nan Fsbouk, pa
egzanp, m w gen anpil moun ki vin
zanmi avk mwen. Moun mwen pa
konnen. Se moun mwen kontre sou li epi
mwen w ke yo pratike Vodou. Se moun
ki pa soti Ayiti. Se moun ki pa soti Lafrik,
sa kapab blan ameriken ki vin kmanse
bati peristil yo. Yo vin pran fmansyon
avk manbo e ongan Ayiti epi yo
retounen avk yon grad nmal ongan
oubyen manbo epi yo kmanse bati
sosyete pa yo. Ou gade tout foto yo mete
sou Fsbouk, yo chaje avk blan, prske
majorite moun blan. Ou gen peristil nan
Filadlfi ki swasanndi pousan blan.
Manbo a blan. Km Ayisyen, kijan w w
transfmasyon epi chanjman kiltirl
rasyal k ap ft kounye a?

Ongan Alisma: Sa se on kesyon tr senp.
Vodou pa di Ayisyen. Vodou di lemond.
Slman l gen dwa devlope lakay Ayisyen
plis ke lt peyi yo. Se de menm ou w
foutbl la evolye andedan Brezil plis ke
Etazini: andedan Ajantin plis ke a Pari.
Ebyen ou bezwen prepare pitit ou
kounye a pou l vin soti on bon jw
Ben: Hell find the help of a Vodouwist,
an ongan?

Ongan Alisma: Similarly youll find a lot
of people who are so-called Vodouists.
But they arent proper Vodouists, who
are dirty Vodouists; who commit certain
acts, certain unkind crimes and who are
looking to convert, who go and convert.
The moment they accept Jesus as their
savior, their sins are forgiven. Thats
why youll see a lot of little old people
inside of the church. The majority in the
church are old people.

Ben: I see on Facebook, for example,
there are a lot of people who become
friends with me. People I dont know.
They are people I come across and I see
that they practice Vodou. They are
people who dont come from Haiti. They
are people who dont come from Africa;
this could be white Americans who start
to build peristil. They are formed by
manbo or ongan in Haiti and they return
with a normal ongan or manbo rank and
they start to build their own societies.
When you look at all the pictures they
put on Facebook, theyre filled with
whites. Almost the majority of the people
are white. There are peristil in
Philadelphia that are seventy percent
white. The manbo is white. As a Haitian,
how do you see the transformation and
cultural-racial change thats currently
happening?

Ongan Alisma: This is a very simple
question. Vodou does not mean Haitian.
Vodou means the world. Only it is
developed in the home of Haitians more
than the other countries. Its the same as
when you see soccer evolving more in
Brazil than in the United States: inside of
Argentina more than Paris. Well you

foutbl epi w voye li al etidye foutbl an
Ajantin, o Brezil epi li retounen on bon
foutbl.

De menm, etranje a, blan an gen dwa vle
soti on bon ongan, on bon manbo li
deplase l al nan baz. Kilti Vodou a se an
Ayiti l al pran konesans lan epi li vin
mete l an aplikasyon nan peyi a epi pou l
epapiye patou pou l f travay Ginen an.
Sonje mwen di w, Ginen an rele moun ke
l vle. Ginen an pa konn af nwa, af ras
blan, ras jn. Pa gen ras nan Vodou a.
Vodou a se nou tout ki se Vodou.
Klkeswa moun nan, Vodou a nan
somy, depi yo bat tanbou fl souke k l.
Li mt pa konnen. Plizy fwa m w
Vodou a ap bat, m w w souke ti tt ou.
Ou gen dwa pa danse; ou konprann? Gen
de jou w ap danse paske w se
Vodouwizan.

Ben: Peristil blan sa yo, y ap pwodwi
ongan tou men kounye a la se yon moun,
pett, ki pa metrize kreyl ske sa
enptan pou yon ongan blan ki pral
pwodwi nouvo ongan? Ki baz li genyen?
Se jis koneksyon avk lespri?

Ongan Alisma: Pa bliye mwen di w
Vodou a pa gen on kesyon de nasyon, de
ras. Pa gen on kesyon de lang. Vodou a
pa gen kontks sa. Klkeswa langaj ou,
ou se yon Vodouwizan. E w ap pfme
antanke Vodouwizan e l lwa a vin sou
ou w ap kominike a klkeswa nasyon ke
ou vle. Pa gen on kesyon de lang.

Ben: ske ou panse pif ongan w l
menm jan avk ou oubyen ske gen
need to prepare your child now so he
can become a good soccer player and
youll send him to study soccer in
Argentina, Brazil and hell return a good
soccer player.
The same: the foreigner, the foreigner
can want to become a good ongan, a
good manbo and he or she goes to the
base. He goes to learn the Vodou culture
in Haiti and hell apply it in the country
and it will spread all over so he or she
can do Ginens work. Remeber I told you,
Ginen calls whomever it wants. Ginen
doesnt know this business of black,
business of white race, yellow race.
There is no race in Vodou. We are all
Vodou. Whoever the person, Vodou is in
sleep, if they beat the drum he has to
shake his body even if he doesnt know.
Multiple times the Vodou is beating I see
you shake your head a little. You may not
danse; you understand? There are days
you danse because you are a Vodouist.

Ben: The peristil of these foreigners,
theyre producing ongan also but then
its a person, perhaps, who hasnt
mastered Creole. Is that important for a
foreign ongan whos producing new
ongan? What is the basis? Is it just
connecting with spirits?

Ongan Alisma: Dont forget I told you
Vodou has no question of nations, of
race. There is no question of language.
Vodou does not have this perspective. No
matter your language, you are a
Vodouist. And, youre performing as a
Vodouist and when the lwa come to you,
youll communicate with whichever
nation you want. There is no question of
language.

Ben: Do you think that most ongan see it
the same way you do or are there ongan

ongan ki gen yon lespri pito rasyal,
lengwistik?

Ongan Alisma: Mwen rete kw majorite
ongan, manbo yo w l menm jan avk
mwen. Se pa yon langaj m ap fme ; se
yon bagay ke m leve jwenn. Sistm nan
pa gen rasis ladan l. Se on sistm klin e
transparan. Se sa k f, w ap w l y ap
pale yo pale de lapirite. W ap w l w vin
nan seremoni an ou w tout moun se tou
de blan. Ki vle di l ap pi, transparan. Pa
gen kachotri la. Se sa ou gen dwa
andedan legliz Pwotestan, ou gen dwa
genyen on chwa pa w ou pa kapab
devwale. F l rete kache. Andedan Vodou
eksprime w. Kiys ou ye? Paske, nou gen
plas pou tout sekt. Pt nou ouvri pou
tout san distenge.

Ben: Gen anpil moun, pa egzanp
Ameriken ki soti kilti isit, depi yo gade
nan Vodou yo pa w anpil liv sakre jiska
prezan. Tankou yo pral di, nou menm
nou gen Koran, nou gen Bib la oubyen
nou gen liv sakre sa. Yo pral di se liv sa,
tankou Bib la oubyen Koran an, k gen
tout rg moralite epi yo pale de dis ld
Bondye epi mwen rete sten Vodou gen
bon jan apresyason epi pspktif sou
moralite, sou konptman yon moun.
Kijan Vodou kominike vizyon moralite li
nan mitan Vodouwizan yo?

Ongan Alisma: L w pale de dis
kmandman, se pa pou Levanjil slman.
Dis kmandman an se pou tout moun k
ap viv sou plant sa, klkeswa relijyon
an. Ou dwe respekte dis kmandman
asavwa ke w ka etidye, w ka pale, w ka
w, w ka tande, w ka manje. Respekte dis
kmandman. Li pa pou on sekt. On
who have a rather racial, linguistic way
of thinking?

Ongan Alisma: I believe that the majority
of ongan, manbo see it the same way I
do. Its not a language Im forming; its
something I grew up knowing. The
system has no racism in it. Its a clean
and transparent system. Thats why
when they are speaking youll see that
they speak of purity. Youll see that when
you come to the ceremony you see all the
people are in white. Which means itll be
pure and transparent. Theres no
secrecy. You could be in the Protestant
church and you have a choice of your
own you cant reveal. It has to remain
hidden. Inside of Vodou, express
yourself. Who are you? Because, we have
room for all sectors.

Ben: There are a lot of people, for
example Americans who come from the
culture here, when they look at Vodou
they dont see a sacred book to this day.
For instance, they will say, we ourselves
have the Quran, we have the Bible or we
have this sacred book. They will say its
this book, like the Bible or the Quran,
that has all the moral rules and they
speak of the Ten Commandments of God.
I am sure that Vodou has a good
appreciation and perspective on
morality, on the behavior of a person.
How does Vodou communicate its moral
vision amidst the Vodouists?

Ongan Alisma: When you speak of the
Ten Commandments, its not only for the
Evangelists. The Ten Commandments
are for everyone living on this planet,
whatever the religion. You are supposed
to respect the Ten Commandments if you
can study, if you can speak, if you can
see, if you can hear, if you can eat.

sekt gen dwa vle kidnap li pou l di sa se
nan Bib la l sti. Non! Se chch ki jwenn
li menm jan w ap vin chita avk mwen
pou w jwenn klkechoz, ske l te la. Li
apati a nou tout. Si l se byen, li se byen pa
nou tout. Li p ap lage nou a destinasyon
de li menm e nou tout gen chwa pa nou
pou nou eksprime lafwa nou sou
klkeswa fm ke nou vle asavwa ke l ap
bon pou nou. Ske nou f sa k ap bon pou
nou. M retounen avk kesyon an pou
moralite. Vodou a pa aksepte imoral.
Vodou a aksepte resp, linyon, pwogr,
lap. Nou vle lap etabli kay chak moun.
Nou vle tout moun ka onetete pou nou
viv ansanm. Nou vle resp youn pou lt
depi kmanse ti bebe en jouk a rive
granmoun sanvennsetan an. Se travay sa
n ap f, preche labn nouvl, pote
gerizon bay maladi, pote solisyon nan
pwoblm yo. Ede w solisyone pwoblm
ou an ansanm pou w sti nan sikonstans
w ap viv ki pmt strs, ki pmt cheve
w ap grennen. Ou pa ka viv. Ou vin pdi
gwos w. Ou vin malatris. Se travay sa
pou n faprann moun viv ansanm. Se
sa k f l w vin la w ap w kman nou viv
ansanm. L m di w nou viv ansanm se
tout nasyon. Sosyete Linto pa genyen
slman Ayisyen. Li gen Ameriken. Li gen
Jamoken. Li genyen Frans. Li genyen
Italyen. Li genyen Brezilyen. Li gen
Spanich ki soti Kiba ki andedan sosyete
a. Ske nou tout mete tt nou ansanm.
Nou se moun; nou dwe viv ansanm. Se sa
Ginen an bezwen. Inite!

Ben: Sa eksplike on seri moun. Youn nan
egzanp ki vini nan lespri m jounen jodi a
se David Brooks paske se yon moun ki te
Respect the Ten Commandments. Its not
for one sector. A sector can want to
kidnap it to say this comes from the
Bible. No! Researchers found it the same
way youre sitting here with me to find
certain things; its here. Its a part of us
all. If its good, its good for us all. It
wont release us to its destination and
we all have a choice to express our faith
in any form we want as long as its good
for us. That we do what is good for us. I
return to the question of morality. Vodou
does not accept immorality. Vodou
accepts respect, union, progress, and
peace. We want peace to be established
in the home of everyone. We want
everyone to be honest so we can live
together. We want respect for one
another starting from little babies to the
one hundred and twenty seven year old
person. This is the work were doing,
preaching the good news, bringing
remedies to the sick, bringing solutions
to problems. We help you solve your
problems together so you can leave your
circumstances of living that allows for
stress: that makes your hair fall out. You
cant live. You have lost weight. Youve
become malnourished. This is the work
we have to doteach people to live
together. This is why when you come
here youll see that we live together.
When I say we live together, its all
nations. Socit Linto does not only have
Haitians. It has Americans. It has
Jamaicans. It has French people. It has
Italians. It has Brazilians. It has Spanish
people from Cuba who are inside of the
society. So we all put our heads together.
We are people. We need to live together.
This is what Ginen needs. Unity!

Ben: That explains a series of people.
One example that comes to mind today is
David Brooks because hes a person who

ekri yon atik nan New York Times kote li
akize Vodou. Se de jou apr tranbleman
d t a. Li vini avk yon atik ki di Vodou
anti-pwogresis. Mwen konnen se pa vre.
Ou konnen se pa vre men ki kote on
moun ki pa konnen anyen sou Ayiti
jwenn lide sa pou l mete nan New York
Times, yon jounal ki pibliye nan yon
milyon kopi ki anfliyanse on pakt
moun? Yo pa janm di sa sou Krisyanis.

Ongan Alisma: Vodou a pa gen okenn
gwo patwon dy l k ap finanse l, k ap
epone l, k ap monopolize l. Se nou menm
ti malere, malerz yo k ap f ef pou nou
eksprime lafwa nou. Men Pwotestan an
pa bliye se yon gwo bwa ki kreye l e l
rete dy l pou l finanse l pou l pmt
tout moun vin koube anba l. Si m te gen
yon gwo bwa dy m tou osi ke on moun
ki genyen on pozisyon kstradin ki
kapab pouswiv klken a nenpt kl
movz enfmasyon ke pou elanse, yo pa
t ap f l.

Si Vodou anti-pwogresis kisa k kenbe
peyi dAyiti? Kiys ki travay t yo? Kiys
ki abitan an? Kiys ki gade kabrit,
kochon, poul, kodn, tout bt yo? Kiys
ki plante diri, mayi, pitimi, pwa, yanm,
bannann, tayo, malanga, patat, manyk?
Se pa Vodouwizan yo? Se Vodouwizan yo
ki pou pran alakanpay pou pote lavi. Ti
Ayiti ou w k rete a, si se pa Vodou li pa
la ank. Lepli souvan depi ng la al lekl
teyoloji, li fin past se yon sl vizyon li
gen nan tt li se vin viv aletranje.

wrote an article in the New York Times
where he accused Vodou. It was two
days after the earthquake. He wrote an
article that said Vodou was anti-
progressive. I know its not true. You
know its not true but, where can a
person who doesnt know anything
about Haiti find this idea to put in the
New York Times: a newspaper that
publishes a million copies that influences
a bunch of people? They never say this
about Christianity.

Ongan Alisma: Vodou doesnt have any
big patrons behind it who are financing
it, who are shouldering it, who are
monopolizing it. Its us the little poor
guys and poor gals who are making an
effort to express our faith. But, the
Protestant cant forget that its a great
power that created it and it stayed
behind it to finance it to allow everyone
to bow down to it. If I had a great power
behind me, too, as well as a person who
has an extraordinary position that can
pursue someone with whatever bad
information that is thrown out, he
wouldnt do it.
If Vodou is anti-progressive, what is
maintaining the country of Haiti? Who
works the land? Who are the peasants?
Who watches the goats, pigs, chickens,
turkeys, all the animals? Who plants the
rice, the corn, the millet, the beans, the
yams, the plantains, the taro, the
malanga, the potatoes, the yucca? Is it
not the Vodouists? Its the Vodouists
who take the countryside in order to
bring life. The little Haiti you see left, if
not for Vodou it would no longer be here.
For the most part as soon as the guy goes
to theological school and ends up a
pastor, he has one vision in his head: to
come live abroad.


Part III & IV

Ben: Oke, mwen ta renmen kontinye
avk yon kesyon sou kisa lwa f pou
moun. Ou deja pale anpil sou
pwoteksyon yo bay, gerizon yo pote bay
moun, wl yo genyen nan seremoni. ske
w kapab ajoute on lt eksplikasyon sou
sa yo f pou moun yo?

Ongan Alisma: Lwa f anpil bagay pou
moun ki kw nan lwa yo. Yo f tou pou
moun ki pa kw. Egzanp mwen sot di w,
ou konn w anpil moun ki malad ki ale
lopital dokt pa w anyen pou yo.
Okontr l voye yo vin chita lakay yo pou
yo mouri, pou yo tann lam yo epi lwa ba
yo lavi. Kisa w panse ka f sa?

Ben: Mwen menm m ka enspire [] pou
yo kreyatif si sa posib. Pa egzanp, yon
atis.

Ongan Alisma: Ou ka enspire moun pou
yo tout bagay nan lemond. Lwa a f sa.
Lwa a kapab ede w sti nan sikonstans
terib. Ke w inosan ladan l: lwa a ka ede w
sti.

Ben: Si w inosan, ou di?

Ongan Alisma: Wi!

Ben: Si w koupab?

Ongan Alisma: Yo pa pran plezi nan sa.

Ben: Gen moun ki konn di, pa egzanp lwa
konn pini moun. ske fenomn sa
egziste?

Ongan Alisma: Se menm bagay mwen t
Part III & IV

Ben: Okay, I would like to continue with
a question on what lwa do for people.
You already spoke on the protection they
give, the healing they bring to people, the
role they have in the ceremony. Can you
add another explanation about what
they do for the people?

Ongan Alisma: Lwa do a lot of things for
people who believe in the lwa. They also
do things for people who dont believe. I
just told you an example; you see the
people who are sick, who go to hospital
and doctors cant help them. On the
contrary he sends them home to sit and
die, for them to wait for their death and
the lwa give them life. What do you think
can do that?

Ben: Myself I would hope [....] for them to
be creative if thats possible. For
example, an artist.

Ongan Alisma: You can hope for people
to be everything in the world. The lwa do
that. The lwa can help you leave terrible
circumstances. If youre innocent in it:
the lwa can help you leave it.

Ben: If youre innocent, you say?

Ongan Alisma: Yes!

Ben: If youre guilty?

Ongan Alisma: They dont take pleasure
in that.

Ben: There are people who say, for
example, lwa sometimes punish people.
Does this phenomenon exist?

Ongan Alisma: Its the same thing I was

ap di w la, le di kmandman an. Lep,
Lefis, e LesentespriLesentespri se lwa
yo. Ou w kot lwa yo ye? Ou w kote yo
sti? Dis kmandman an ou dwe
respekte l. Ou dwe l resp. Ou dwe koube
anba l. Ou rekoveyi anba l. Osito ke ou pa
obeyi anba l, ske ou vyole lalwa. Osito
ke w vyole lalwa, lwa a pa pran plezi nan
sa. Li ka pini w pou w pa janm f sa ank.
Pou on lt pa l rekmanse nan on chz
[].

Ben: L ou di obeyi anba l, stadi obeyi
anba lwa a? Sa sa a vle di?

Ongan Alisma: Sa vle di sa ou dwe f, ak
sa ou pa dwe f. Ou konnen mwen dwe
tout moun resp. Se sa lwa a vle. M dwe
tout moun resp. Lwa a pa aksepte pou
m vin nan on seremoni la pou mwen
pete tapaj pou m goumen. M dwe
respekte sa. Lwa a pa gen dwa la, l ap
pale. Nan moman l ap pfme se l sa
mwen menm m ap anmde on lt moun.
Pou m ap distb on lt moun ki vle
aprann; mwen menm, m pa sou sa epi m
ap anmde on lt. Lwa a pa pran plezi
nan sa. Lwa a pa aksepte tou pou w pran
pitit entl l ap redi, podyab, pou l w
paske an Ayiti tout pitit se byen pv
malere e malerz osiou voye timoun
ou lekl pou l sti demen, si Dye vle. Al
ou konnnen menm si w te f vi w, ou te
f trant an, karant an, w ap manje miz
men osito timoun ou an vin nan on bon
pozisyon ske miz w fini. Sa a pral
soulaje miz w. Pou w on moun pran l li
tiye l sanzatann. Ou f apl avk lwa ke
w kw ladan l lan, f l ba w jistis. Tout
bagay sa yo lwa a f pou ou olye ke w t al
pran on zam ou fizye moun nan w
konnen an epi pou w t al nan prizon.
telling you, the Ten Commandments. The
Father, the Son, the Holy Ghostthe
Holy Ghost is the lwa. Do you see where
the lwa are? Do you see where they
come from? You need to respect the Ten
Commandments. You owe it respect. You
need to bow down to it. You cower
beneath it. The moment you dont obey
it, its like you violate the law. The
moment you violate the law, the lwa
dont take pleasure in that. It can punish
you so you never do that again. For
another of its own to restart in a chair
[...].

Ben: When you say obey it, that is to say
obey the lwa? What does that mean?

Ongan Alisma: That means what you
should and shouldnt do. You know I owe
everyone respect. That is what the lwa
wants. I owe everyone respect. The lwa
wont accept for me to come in a
ceremony to start a brawl and to fight. I
need to respect that. The lwa dont have
a right here, he will speak. In the
moment hes performing, thats when
Im bothering another person; disturbing
someone else who wants to learn; I am
not paying attention to that but im
bothering another person. The lwa wont
take pleasure in that. The lwa also dont
accept for you to take someones child
hes struggling, poor thing to see
because in Haiti all children are
blessings to the pooryou send your
child to school for him to come out in the
future, if God is willing (well you know
that even if you spend your life; if you
spend thirty, forty years suffering, the
moment your child is in a good position,
its like your suffering is over and to see
someone take him and suddenly kill him.
You call upon the lwa you believe in, it
has to give you justice. The lwa do all of

Ske w vin gen de pn alafwa. Men lwa a
li menm li pa f l konsa. Li al vanje pou
ou pito. Li ba w jistis. Lwa a f pou ou. Se
menm jan w gen dwa ap f on biznis la
epi w f demann a lwa a pou biznis lan
pwogrese. Se konsa w gade ou w biznis
lan ap pwogrese. Slman lwa a ba w
kondisyon pa l. Ou aksepte pou mwen f
biznis lan pwogrese pou ou pa vann
moun yo bagay yo pri yo pa vo. Pa vann
moun yo bagay ki pa bon. L moun yo
vin kote w pa ekspilse [expulse] yo. Ou
dwe pran ka yo an konsiderasyon. Ou
dwe apresye kliyan k ap vin lakay on wa.
Ou dwe kenbe biznis lan pwp pou l pa
genyen okenn imidite. Tout tan w ap f
tout bagay sa yo lwa a mande w la ske
w ap byen mennen. Osito ke w w w
kmanse f lajan, ou w bouty dlo sa ki
te kote on dola kounye a w w se pou w
vann li twa dola. Ou vin pa koube anba
kmandman lwa a. Lwa a vire do l.

Ben: Kijan ou pral jwenn enstriksyon lwa
konsa? ske se ongan ki pral entprete
mesaj lwa a oubyen w ap jwenn li nan
dmi?

Ongan Alisma: Sa depan, ou gen dwa se
kote ongan ou vini ou vin rele on lwa epi
pou w prezante l pwoj ke w vle f a pou
l ede w. Se konsa tou ou gen dwa pran
baln ou, ou pran lwil ou, ou f demann
ou avk lwa a epi l vin ba ou tout
enstriksyon sa yo nan revelasyon nan
rv ou.

Ben: Si w pran pa egzanp san moun ki
these things for you; rather than you
take a gun for you to shoot the person
you know and for you to go to prison. Its
like you have two woes at one time. But,
the lwa do not do it this way. It prefers to
avenge for you. It gives you justice. The
lwa do for you. Similarly you could be
conducting a business and you make a
request of the lwa for the business to
progress. Youll see the business
progressing. Only, the lwa will give you
its conditions. If you accept my help to
progress the business for you, dont sell
people the items for prices they arent
worth. Dont sell the people damaged
things. When the people come to you
dont expel them. You have to take care
of their needs. You need to appreciate
the clients who come to you. You need to
keep the business clean so it doesnt
have any moisture. All the while youre
doing all these things the lwa ask you,
you will do well. The moment you see
youre making money, you see the bottle
of water that cost a dollar now you see
you have to sell it for three dollars. You
no longer bow down to the the
commandment of the lwa. The lwa will
turn its back.

Ben: How will you find those types of
instructions of the lwa? Is it the ongan
wholl interpret the message of the lwa
or will you get it in sleep?

Ongan Alisma: That depends, it could be
that you came to the ongan to call on a
lwa and to present the project you want
to do for it to help you. Similarly you can
take your candle, you take your oil, you
make a request of the lwa and it gives
you all these instructions in revelations
in your dreams.

Ben: If you take for example the one

pral vini konsilte avk ou nan biwo pa ou
a, ske w kapab di nou youn nan rezon
prensipal ki f yo vin konsilte avk ou
menm ?

Ongan Alisma: Rezon prensipal ki koz
klke moun konsilte lwa lakay mwen,
pafwa moun nan konn genyen malad
dokt pa w anyen. Pafwa moun nan
konn pdi travay li. Se espwa ti travay la
l te genyen pou l peye bil li e gen on bs
ki apenn monte nan travay la, bs la
voye l ale. Moun yo konn konsilte mwen
pou jan de ka sa yo epi mwen ede yo pou
yo retounen nan travay la. Konsa tou, w
konn w gen fwaye tou ki kraze.
Madanm ki gen pwoblm a mesye;
mesye gen pwoblm a madanm. Mesye a
ta toujou renmen rete a madanm nan
men madanm nan gen on lt moun k ap
jwe nan tt li e k koz li pa vle rete. Mesye
a osi: li vin kote w, ou rele lwa a pou li.
Lwa a al gade ske se pa miz mesye sa t
ap f dam nan pase ki koz dam nan pa
vle rete ank. ske l viv a dam nan byen?
Yo rele sa jijman spiritwl. L jijman sa
fin ft yo w oke mesye a t ap trete dam
nan byen e dam nan t ap toujou renmen
rete a mari l men li gen on lt moun k ap
jwe nan tt li. Lwa ede mari sa retounen
a madanm nan, ede madanm nan tou
retounen avk mesye. Pafwa tou moun
nan konn nan on travay depi lontan l ap
travay nan pozisyon l ye a. Gen on lt
moun ki vin nan menm pozisyon an se li
menm ki antrene moun nan, aprann
moun nan travay la. Apr twa mwa, li
menm li t ap travay di dola l, yo monte
moun nan kenz dola oubyen yo monte
moun nan douz dola epi li menm li
toujou rete a di dola. Li gen dwa vin kote
mwen pou mwen ede l, rele lwa pou li.
Lwa ede l pou yo mete l a kenz dola tou.
Lwa al touche k bs la epi l f l ba l rez
tou. Lwa a f dt e dt bagay toujou.
hundred people who consult with you in
your office, can you tell us a principal
reason that makes them come to consult
with you?

Ongan Alisma: The principal reason that
causes people to consult lwa at my house
is because at times they have an illness
and doctors dont see anything. At times
the person could have lost their job. He
had the hope of the little work to pay his
bills and theres a boss that has just
started at the job and the boss let him go.
The people consult me for these types of
cases and I help them return to the job.
Similarly, you can see also that there are
marriages that are destroyed. Women
who have problems with men; men who
have problems with women. The man
would always like to stay with the
woman but the woman has another
person whos playing in her head that
causes her not stay. The man also: he
comes to you and you call the lwa for
him. The lwa looks to see if this man was
mistreating the woman to cause her not
to want to stay. Does he live well with
the woman? They call that spiritual
judgement. When this judgment is
finished they see, okay, the man was
treating the woman well and the woman
would always like to stay with her
husband but she has another person
playing with her head. The lwa help this
husband return with the wife, helps the
wife also return with the man. Also at
times the person could be at a job for a
long time working in the same position.
Theres another person who comes to
the same position and its him who trains
this person, teaches the person the job.
After three months, he was working ten
dollars an hour, they raise the person to
fifteen dollars or they raise the person to
twelve dollars and he himself stays at

Ben: Si yon moun vini konsilte li bezwen
yon svis konsaogmantasyon, li
bezwen ansyen mennaj li oubyen, li vle
rete avk madanm li oubyen, klkeswa
sitiyasyon an si lwa di li pa vle ede
ske ou pral di moun nan m pa kapab
ede w?

Ongan Alisma: Wi!

Ben: Gen fenomn konsa? Gen moman
kote ou konnen lwa p ap ede moun nan
epi ou bezwen voye moun nan ale?

Ongan Alisma: Sosyete lakay nou se
konsa l fonksyone menm. Depi lwa a pa
aksepte l di w ou pa merite travay ou
mande a, yo voye w ale. Ske w pa
kalifye pou li.

Ben: Depi ou di ou dak, ou si e sten sa
lwa a pwomt li pral f a pral pase? Pa
gen moun ki retounen di bon m pa jwenn
ogmantasyon an?

Ongan Alisma: M pa di ou p ap jwenn
non men, de tranteyin an m poko jwenn
sa. Se sa k f mwen f ongan an ouvt. Se
sa f m pa p pou m f l lakay mwen,
kote m abite a. M pa p. W ap w tout
machin mwen, vit yo kl. Tout kote m
pase tout moun rekont mwen. Mwen
kw nan lwa yo, sa yo f yo paske sa m
viv deja yo, yo bon.
ten dollars. He can come to me so I can
help him, call the lwa for him. The lwa
help him so they can put him at fifteen
dollars also. The lwa go and touch the
heart of the boss and make him give him
a raise, too. The lwa do more and more
things still.

Ben: If a person comes to consult and he
needs a service like that a raise, he
needs an old girlfriend or, he wants to
stay with his wife or, whatever the
situationif the lwa say they dont want
to help are you going to tell the person
you cant help them?

Ongan Alisma: Yes!

Ben: There are such phenomena? Are
there moments where you know the lwa
wont help the person and you need to
send the person away?

Ongan Alisma: That is exactly how
societies function in our understanding.
If the lwa dont accept it and it says you
dont deserve the work you ask for, they
send you away. Its because you dont
qualify for it.

Ben: If you say yes you agree, are you
sure and certain what the lwa promises,
it will make sure that it happen? There
arent people who come back and say,
well, I didnt get a raise?

Ongan Alisma: Im not saying you wont
find any, but, in thirty one years I havent
found that. Thats why I am an open
ongan. Thats why Im not afraid to do it
in my house, where I live. Im not afraid.
Youll see the windows of all my cars are
clear. Everywhere I go, everyone
recognizes me. I believe in the lwa, in
what they do because of what Ive

Ben: Se vre ou gen on onf nan kay ou.
ske sa se yon sitiyasyon ki nmal nan
kilti Vodou a? ske li tipik mete onf
lakay ongan oubyen ske gen lt ki pito
mete sa on lt kote?

Ongan Alisma: Si w pa gen konfyans nan
lwa anvr de eksperyans ke w f avk li
deja ou pa oblije f sa paske yo ka vide w
at a nenpt moman. L moun nan fin
depanse lajan l, li pa reyisi sa l bezwen
an epi l w pwoblm nan nan k l toujou
li p ap vle gade w konsa. Men l l pa konn
kay ou, li ka difisil pou l jwenn ou.

Ben: Ou pran on ongan mwen konnen
andey an Ayiti ; li pale de desan
senkanteyen li svi. Ou gade nan Max
Beauvoir li pale de katsan senkanteyen
lwa. ske ou menm tou ou genyen yon
nimewo delimite, yon nimewo espesifik
ki se tout lwa ou svi oubyen ske ou gen
on sistm kote lwa antre, kk lwa soti, ou
jwenn nouvo lwa pafwa epi yo vini nan
rv? Kijan sa mache? Kijan yon ongan
gen desan senkanteyen, yon lt gen
katsan senkanteyen.

Ongan Alisma: Mwen pa kont sa ditou l
ke on ongan genyen on ansanm d lwa
ke l svi. Men mwen menm, m pa ka
enimere kantite lwa ke mwen svi. Lakay
mwen w ap w mt Michelet papa
venteyen nasyon. L w ap analize
venteyen nasyon, andedan on sl nasyon
ou gen dwa jwenn san en ou gen dwa
jwenn stsan en ou gen dwa jwenn
milst san en. M pa kapab enimere
[enumerate] kantite de lwa ke mwen
svi. Slman mwen se yon ongan ki ouv
a tou l lwa. Slman sosyete m genyen
already lived, theyre good.

Ben: Its true you have an onf in your
house. Is this a normal occurence in
Vodou? Is it typical to place onf in the
homes of ongan or are there others
whod prefer to place it somewhere else?

Ongan Alisma: If you arent confident in
the lwa relative to the experience youve
had with it already, you dont have to do
this because they can throw you to the
ground at any moment. When the person
has spent their money and he doesnt get
what he wants and he sees that the
problem is still with him he wont take
that lightly.

Ben: Take an ongan I know in the Haitian
countryside; he speaks of the two
hundred fifty one lwa he serves. You
look in Max Beauvoir, he speaks of four
hundred and fifty one lwa. Do you,
yourself, have a definite number, a
specific number for all the lwa you serve
or do you have a system where lwa
enter, some lwa leave, you get new lwa
sometimes and they come in dreams?
How does an ongan have two hundred
fifty one and another has four hundred
fifty one.

Ongan Alisma: I am not al all against an
ongan having an assembly of lwa that he
serves. But myself, I cant enumerate the
quantity of lwa I serve. In my house
youll see boss Michelet is the father of
twenty one nations. When you are
analyzing twenty one nations, inside of a
single nation you could find one hundred
and one, you could find seven hundred
and one, you could find one thousand
seven hundred and one. I cannot
enumerate on the number of lwa I serve.
Except to say that I am an ongan whos

yon lwa ki bs li.

Ben: Gen yon sl lwa ki lwa prensipal
sosyete a?

Ongan Alisma: Non ki mt, fonde sosyete
a. Andan sosyete a w ap jwenn anpil lt
lwa paske l w ap analize, Sosyete Linto
a gen swasannst pitit. Analize w,
swasannst pitit, bon, si chak pitit gen
san en lwa oubyen klke ka gen twasan
en, sa ta gen stsan en. L ou gade, nou
gen anpil ongan andan sosyete a, yo
chaje anpil lwa. L m di w anpil lwa plis
ke twasan konbyen, katsan konbyen. Si
w jwenn yon ongan katsan en lwa ou
byen katsan swasanndist lwa ske l f
on ti pati andedan Sosyete Linto.

Ben: Se on bagay ki fasine mwen anpil.
Depi mwen gade sistm Vodou mwen w
kijan li pwodwi anpil ongan pa rap avk
yon sistm tankou Katolik kote ou gen
yon grenn p epi yon lt p vini chak
sizan. P yo bezwen monte anpil nivo
nan lekl pou yo vin p. Yo manke sa.
Men nan Vodou sanble se yon sistm ki
pwodwi anpil ongan, anpil manbo. Ki sa
ou kapab di sou sa? Ki motivasyon w?
ske pou w gaye Vodou? ske pou w bay
tout moun chans pou yo vin nan nivo ki
pi wo a, nivo ongan an? Ki eksplikasyon
tout pwodiktivite ongan sa a?

Ongan Alisma: Pwodiktivite ki koz
andedan sistm Vodou a genyen tout
inisyason sa yo, moun yo ap swiv kilti yo
open to all the lwa. Except to say my
society has a lwa whos the boss of it.

Ben: Is there a single lwa whos the
principal lwa of the society?

Ongan Alisma: The name who is the
boss, founded the society. Inside of the
society youll find a lot of other lwa
because when you are analyzing, Socit
Linto has sixty seven initiates. Think
about it, sixty seven initiates; well if each
initiate has one hundred and one lwa or
some could have three hundred and one,
that [person] could have seven hundred
and one. When you look, we have a lot of
ongan inside the society, they have a lot
of lwa. When I say a lot of lwa, more than
three hundred and something, four
hundred and something. If you find an
ongan with four hundred and one lwa or
four hundred and seventy seven lwa, its
like he makes a small part inside Socit
Linto.

Ben: Its something that really fascinates
me. When I look at the Vodou system I
see that it produces a lot of ongan
relative to a system like Catholicism
where you have one single priest and
another priest comes every six years.The
priests have to attain a lot of levels in
school before they become priests. They
lack this. But, in Vodou it appears to be a
system that produces a lot ongan, a lot of
manbo. What can you say about this?
Whats your motivation? Is it to spread
Vodou? Is it to give everyone a chance to
get to the highest level, the ongan level?
What is the explanation for the
productivty of these ongan.

Ongan Alisma: The productivity that
causes all these initiations inside the
system of Vodou is that the people are

ki se Vodou. Anpil ladan yo se andan
Pwotestan yo sti. Sa vle di yo te f kenz
an, vent an, trant an andedan Pwotestan.
Yo t ap tande pawl Bondye ki andedan
Labib la. Men kounye a Ginen an di nou
te la pou nou te aprann yo. Nou fin
aprann yo, vin lakay nou. Yo retounen
lakay yo andedan Vodou. Kounye a yo
vin chita ti psyon sa yo pran andedan
Pwotestan an yo fin konnen l kounye a
gen on pwovb an Ayisyen yo di chat
konnen, rat konnen, barik mayi a rete la.
M fin konn sa k lakay ou a, se pa anyen ki
serye pase lakay mwen ban m al chita
lakay mwen pou m viv.

Ben: Konben ongan ou fme ou menm?
Ou di w gen swasannst pitit men yo pa
tout ongan? Kk se slman onsi?

Ongan Alisma: Nan swasannst pitit,
mwen genyen trz ongan.

Ben: Trz, epi manbo?

Ongan Alisma: Rs yo se manbo.

Ben: Epi onsi ki pa ongan oubyen ki pa
manbo... ?

Ongan Alisma: Tout ongan se onsi.

Ben: Men ske tout onsi ongan tou?

Ongan Alisma: Tout ongan se onsi; tout
manbo se onsi. Al ou konnen gen klas.
Ou gen dwa nan senp, sou pwen, ale nt.
L ou senp: ou antre nan sistm nan, ou
kmanse aprann de sistm nan, ou fin
kmanse konnen de sistm nan, epi ou
gen de ts pou w pase ki pou pmt ou
following their culture. A lot of them
come from Protestantism. That means
they spent fifteen years, twenty years,
thristy years in Protestantism. They
were listening to the word of God which
is in the Bible. But Ginen says were here
to teach them. We get through teaching
them, they come to our place. They
return to their homes in Vodou. Then
they come sit, the small portion they
learned in Protestantism, they already
know it, and now theres a Haitian
proverb: the cat knows, the rat knows;
the barrel of corn stays undisturbed. I
know whats in your home, and its
nothing more serious than what is in my
house; so let me establish myself at
home so I can live.

Ben: How many ongan have you trained
yourself? You say you have sixty seven
initiates but they arent all ongan? Some
are only onsi?

Ongan Alisma: Of sixty seven initiates, I
have thirteen ongan.

Ben: Thirteen, and manbo?

Ongan Alisma: The rest are manbo.

Ben: And onsi who arent ongan or who
arent manbo...?

Ongan Alisma: All ongan are onsi.

Ben: But, are all onsi also ongan?

Ongan Alisma: All ongan are onsi; all
manbo are onsi. Well, you know, there
are classes. You could be a simple
initiate, an under the point initiate, or
all the way [ongan or manbo]. When you
are simple: you enter into the system,
you start learning the system, you start

ret sou kwen epi gen de ts ank pou w
pase nan lekl. Ou soti nan medlskoul,
ou fin f on kary nan medlskoul, ou
pral f on karye nan ayskoul. Ou sot f on
kary nan Ayskoul, ou pral antre nan
inivsite pou w f on lt kary.

Ben: ske w ta di on moun ki senp, ki f
kanzo inisyason kanzo, li soti senp, ske
se toujou ongan li ye?

Ongan Alisma: Wi, se ongan li ye pase pa
gen limit pou li. Li andedan peristil li l l
vle. Li antre andan onf l l l vle. L lwa
ap pale li ka part, li salye lwa epi l chita.
Pa gen psonn k a di l leve paske l se on
ongan. Li f chemen an. Li benefisye
pasaj li deja. [15:57]

Ben: Donk, li ka kenbe ason? Li kapab
salye lwa?

Ongan Alisma: L w sou pwen, ou pa ka
salye lwa avk ason men w ka kenbe
baln. Ou ka kenbe yon gode dlo. Nmal
pou pa kenbe ason pou nou kapab
idantifye diferans ki genyen antre senp,
sou pwen, e asogwe.

Ben: Oke, se slman asogwe ki gen dwa
kenbe ason an. Pou Vodou, ason an se pi
gwo senbl otorite?

Ongan Alisma: Wi, pa etone on sou pwen
[Yes, dont be surprised if a sou pwen
uses...] gen dwa kenbe ason tou nan
peristil lakay li asavwa ke se lwa l svi a
menm ke l ap salye.
knowing the system and then, you have
two tests to pass that will allow to attain
under the point and then there are
again two tests for you to pass in school.
You come from middle school you finish
a class in middle school, youre going to
do a class in high school. You finish the
high school class, youre going to enter
university to do another class.

Ben: Would you say people who are
simple, who do the kanzo initiation, he
leaves simple, is he still an ongan?

Ongan Alisma: Yes, hes an ongan
because there are no limits for him. Hes
inside of the peristil when he wants to
be. He enters the onf when he wants.
When the lwa are speaking he can
appear and greet the lwa and then sit
down. There isnt anyone who can tell
him to get up because he is an ongan. He
did the journey. He benefited from the
passage already.

Ben: So, he can use the ason? He can
greet the lwa?

Ongan Alisma: When youre under the
point you cant greet the lwa with the
ason but you can hold a candle. You can
hold a cup of water. Its normal not to be
able to use the ason so we can tell the
difference between simple, under the
point, and asogwe.

Ben: Okay, its only asogwe who have
the right to hold the ason. For Vodou, the
ason is the biggest symbol of authority?

Ongan Alisma: Yes, dont be surprised if
an under the point uses the ason in his
home peristil, seeing as how its his own
lwa he serves that hes greeting.


Ben: Li ka f on seremoni domestik avk
fanmi li. Li gen dwa kenbe ason nan
kontks sa?

Ongan Alisma: An nou di nou genyen
ongan Ben ki sou pwen andedan Sosyete
Linto epi ft Loko rive e se nan tt li Loko
toujou vini; se li Loko renmen. Nan
moman sa ou ka ba l ason pou l salye
Loko. Pa etone, si Loko vin sou li, Loko
pran ason epi w pral di Loko pa kenbe
ason an paske svit w se sou pwen l ye.
Ou pa gen dwa sa. Loko se on bs. Se on
gwo chf. Ou pa gen pale devan l. Li ka f
sa l vle.

Ben: Genyen moun ki leve nan Vodou,
pett yo pa f Ongan. Yo pa kanzo men
yo leve nan yon kilti Vodou epi tout
fanmi yo f l. Yo menm tou yo konnen yo
soti nan fanmi ongan menm si yo pa sou
pwen, yo pa senp, yo pa asogwe
ofisylman ; nan sistm ongan ou kapab
pmt yo salye Loko si yo soti nan bon
baz Vodou?

Ongan Alisma: L ap salye Loko avk on
po dlo. Ou ka ba l on gde dlo, on baln
pou l salye Loko men w pa oblije ba l
ason an paske l pa konn regleman ason
an.

Ben: ske ou gen lwa ki pale plis sou kisa
ki regleman ason an?

Ongan Alimsa: Non, paske l ou genyen
asonnou pale de senp, de sou pwen, de
asogwe. Asogwe a li se l w fin pran
dezym etap la ki di inivsite ske ou fin

Ben: He can do a domestic ceremony
with his family. Can he use the ason in
that context?

Ongan Alisma: Let us say we have ongan
Ben whos under the point in Socit
Linto and its Lokos party and Loko
always comes in his head; Loko likes
him. In that moment you can give him
the ason to greet Loko. Dont be
surprised if Loko comes on him, Loko
takes the ason and youre going to tell
Loko he cant hold the ason because the
servant is under the point. You dont
have that right. Loko is a boss. Hes a big
chief. You have no authority over him.
He can do what he wants.

Ben: There are people who are raised in
Vodou, perhaps they arent ongan.
Theyre not kanzo but they were raised
in a Vodou culture and their whole
family does it. They themselves know
that they come from ongan families even
if theyre not under the point, simple, or
officially asogwe; in the ongan system
can you allow them to greet Loko if they
are from a good Vodou base?

Ongan Alisma: Hell greet Loko with a
pitcher of water. You can give him a cup
of water, a candle for him to greet Loko
but you dont have to give him the ason
because he does know the requirements
of the ason.

Ben: Do you have lwa who speak more
on what the requirements of the ason
are?

Ongan Alisma: No, because when you
have an asonwe speak of simple, of
under the point, of asogwe. Asogwe is
when youve finished taking the second

gradye inivsite ou sti avk yon
diploma. L w fin sti avk yon diploma,
kounye a ou pral f pratik. W al degaje w
pou w pran bachlerye w pou al degaje w,
ou remt on doktoral. Ske w aprann. L
ke ou pa f pasaj la, ou pa antre nan
djvo ou benefisye pasaj la nan on pakt
ki limite.

Ben: Menm si w leve nan yon kay
Vodouwizan?

Ongan Alisma: Menm si w leve nan yon
kay Vodouwizan. Men, pa pou otan ou se
Vodouwizan epi presizeman se sa ou vle
pou pitit ou. Sistm Vodou a pa
fonksyone konsa. Vodou a li menm li
toujou ta renmen mwen se yon ongan
pou piti mwen ta past, pou pitit mwen
ta enjeny, pou pitit mwen ta dokt, pou
pitit mwen ta avoka, pou pitit mwen ta
on lt bagaypou nou agrandi
fonksyonman fanmi an.

Ben: Stadi ou kite timoun ou yo f kary
yo vle?

Ongan Alisma: Wi!

Ben: Ou pa fse yo? Ou pa egzije yo? Ou
pa menm ankouraje yo?

Ongan Alisma: Ditou!

Ben: Men, an menm tan tou ou kapab
kontre; pa egzanp, m kontre kk ongan
yo di, m ta renmen pou pitit mwen swiv
chemen mwen men li pa vle f sa. Gen
kk ongan ki kapab gen atidid sa. Se on
kesyon psonl?

step which is the university and you
finish and graduate and you leave with a
diploma. When you leave with a diploma,
now youre going to practice. You try and
get your bachelor and then you try to get
a doctorate. So that you learn. When you
dont do the passage, you dont enter
into the djvo, you experience the the
passage with a bunch of limitations.

Ben: Even if you were brought up in the
home of a Vodouist?

Ongan Alisma: Even if you are brought
up in the home of a Vodouist. But, just
because youre a Vodouist doesnt
precisely mean thats what you want for
your child. The Vodou system doesnt
function like that. Vodou itself would
always like for me to be an ongan, for my
child to be a pastor, for my child to be an
engineer, for my child to be a doctor, for
my child to be a lawyer, for my child to
be something elseso we can enlarge
the functionality of the family.

Ben: In other words you let your
children do the careers they want?

Ongan Alisma: Yes!

Ben: You dont force them? You dont
require them? You dont even encourage
them?

Ongan Alisma: Not at all!

Ben: But, at the same time also you can
encounter, for example, I encounter
some ongan who say, I would like for
my child to follow in my path but he
doesnt want to do that. There are some
ongan who can have this attitude. Is it a
personal matter?


Ongan Alisma: Mwen pa di sa mwen
menm. M p ap janm di li. Chak moun gen
chwa pa yo nan lavi. Mwen f pitit la,
mwen pa kapab f opinyon l, desizyon l.
Li ka f sa l vle. Wl mwen andedan
Vodou a ke mwen kapab mande lwa a
pou l bay pitit mwen an pwoteksyon pou
mwen pou l pa tonbe avan l l. Pitit
mwen dwe f chwa l, di pitit la, wi, se
pou w ongan. Non li pa posib. Pitit mwen
ou ka f sa ke w vle. Si se pou ranplase m
ta bezwen yon moun ranplase m, si se
pou sa m t ap plis bezwen pitit mwen an
vin on ongan, m gen anpil lt pitit
spiritwl ki ka ranplase m. Ske m pa gen
pwoblm. M gen dwa fse pou pitit
mwen an vin devni on ongan e poutan se
pa chwa lwa yo. Men pitit spiritwl
mwen yo deja chwazi yo menm. Lwa a
deja aksepte yo. Asavwa ke lwa aksepte
yo poukisa m pral fje on lt pitit pou l
vin svi lwa yo pandansetan ke lwa yo pa
aksepte l ?

Ben: Ban m poze kesyon an, pett moun
pral bezwen f sa pou rezon eritaj, byen?

Ongan Alisma: Se sa m ap di w. Eritaj
byen, kondisyon mistik la pa gen slfich
ladan l, pa gen on af de byen psonl. Se
tout plzi si mwen pa la ank pou on
pitit spiritwl mwen jere sosyete m, jere
peristil la. Li pa la ank, pou on lt pitit
jere peristil la, jere sosyete l. Se byen lwa
yo e lwa yo pou ou.

Ben: Ou se ongan prensipal Socit Linto
Roi Trois Mystres men, ou gen plizy
ongan ki konn travay avk ou, ki konn
asiste seremoni, ki toujou tou pr onf a.
ske nou gen wl diferan nan sosyete a?

Ongan Alisma: I dont say this myself. I
would never say it. Each person has their
own choices in life. I had the child; I cant
make his opinions, his decisions. He can
do what he wants. My role in Vodou is
that I can ask the lwa to give my children
protection for me so he doesnt fall
before his time. My children have the
right to their own choices, I wont tell the
child, yes, you have to be an ongan. No
its not possible. My child you can do
what you want. If I needed someone to
replace me, if this is why I would need
my child to become an ongan, I have a lot
of other spiritual children who can
replace me. So I dont have a problem. I
could force my child to become an ongan
and its not the choice of the lwa,
however. But, my spiritual children are
already chosen. The lwa have already
accepted them. As long as the lwa
accepts them why would I forge another
child to come serve the lwa when the lwa
dont accept him?

Ben: Let me ask the question, perhaps
people want to do that for reasons of
inheritance, wealth?

Ongan Alisma: Thats what Im telling
you. The inheritance of wealth, the
mystical condition is not selfish. Theres
no concept of personal wealth. Its my
pleasure if im no longer here for my
spiritual child to handle the peristil, the
society. Its the wealth of the lwa and the
lwa are for you.

Ben: You are the principal ongan of
Socit Linto Roi Trois Mystres but, you
have multiple ongan who work with you,
who assist at ceremonies, who are
always close to the onf. Do you have
different roles in the society?


Ongan Alisma: Wi, mwen genyen
Emanyl Lwi ki se premye ongan soyete
a. Mwen menm mwen se ongan konsey,
fondat sosyete a. Gen on lt ongan ki
prezidan sosyete a. Gen on ongan ki
trezrye. Gen on ongan ki trezrye
adjwen. Gen on ongan ki sekret jeneral.
Gen on ongan ki sekret adjwen sosyete
a.

Ben: Yo tout gen wl pa yo byen defini?

Ongan Alisma: Gen on ongan ki chf
egzekitif sosyete a. Yo antre mele. L m
di w antre mele a gen ongan e manbo.
Gen chf de disiplin osi. Gen chf de
dyalg osi. L mwen di chf de dyalg an
nou di on manb andedan Vodou a gen
dwa gen pwoblm nan fwaye l, ilfoke l
jwenn klke manb de dyalg ki pou al
chita nan fwaye a k pou mete lap san ke
l pa bezwen al chche dey yon konsol.

Ben: ske ou pa jwenn ongan aspire pou
yo fonde onf pa yo? Tankou, anpil moun
nan lt relijyon yo gen misyon yo voye
pou fonde legliz oubyen pou yo mete
mske pou moun ki Mizilman. ske ou
menm tou, ou gen lt ongan ki fondat
peristil? Yo gen yon vizyon plase oubyen
mete ongan nan plizy kote pou yo
kapab f travay an inite? Tankou Fort
Lauderdale, li lwen, pett on onf ki
asosye avk Linto a ka bon la? ske w
gen aspirasyon sa?

Ongan Alisma: Mwen genyen ongan ki
konekte avk nou ki se piti sosyete a
Ongan Alisma: Yes, I have Emmanuel
Louis who is the first ongan of the
society. I, myself, am the consulting
ongan, the founder of the society. There
is another ongan who is the president of
the society. There is an ongan who is the
treasurer. There is an ongan whos the
deputy treasurer. Theres an ongan
whos the general secretary. Theres an
ongan whos the deputy secretary of the
society.

Ben: Do they each have well defined
roles?

Ongan Alisma: Theres an ongan whos
the executive chief of the society. They
are intermingled. When I say
intermingled, there are ongan and
manbo. There are also officers of
discipline. There are also communication
officers. When I say communication
officers, lets say a member in Vodou has
a problem in his marriage, he can find a
member of communication who can go
sit with them to establish peace, without
him having to search for an outside
consoler.

Ben: Are there ongan who aspire to build
their own onf? For instance, a lot of
people in other religions have
missionaries they send to establish
churches or to establish mosques for
Muslim people. Do you also have other
ongan who establish peristil? Do they
have a vision to place ongan in multiple
locations so that they can work in unity?
For instance, Fort Lauderdale, its far,
perhaps an onf that is associated with
Linto would be good there? Do you have
these aspirations?

Ongan Alisma: I have ongan who are
connected with us, who are children of

andedan Nouyk. Nou gen manbo
andedan Kanada. Nou gen ongan
andedan lando. Nou gen manbo
andedan Ftloddel. Nou gen manbo nan
West Palm Beach. Nou gen on ongan an
Ayiti. Nou genyen on ongan Owayo. Nou
gen on manbo a Pari, on ongan a Pari.

Ben: Moun sa yo toujou pral konsidere
ou menm km yon papa?

Ongan Alisma: Tout, m se papa spiritwl
yo.

Ben: Tradisyon onf sa mete kote yo
enstale k yo? Yo gen dwa trese nouvo
tradisyon ladan l, oubyen ki libte yo
genyen?

Ongan Alisma: Yo ka f sa ke yo vle nan
onf pa yo a asavwa ke yo respekte
prensip disiplin lwa yo.

Ben: Di mwen, sa ki pi difisil nan ongan
an? Gen anpil chante ki pale sou difikilte
yon ongan kapab genyen nan travay l ap
f.

Ongan Alisma: Gen de maladi ki vin
devan w. Depan de maladi a ou w se on
trajidifilkiti pou w jwenn solisyon an
pote lakay li. Ou dwe jwenn li. Li di. Yon
kouve kanzo se tr di.

Ben: Yon kouve kanzo, sa sa ye?

Ongan Alisma: Yon pwomosyon kanzo.

Ben: Li difisil, tout travay li mande?

Ongan Alisma: Vrman fatigan malgre w
gen anpil moun k ap ede w.
the society in New York. We have manbo
in Canada. We have ongan in Orlando.
We have manbo in Fort Lauderdale. We
have manbo in West Palm Beach. We
have an ongan in Haiti. We have an
ongan Ohio. We have an manbo in Paris,
an ongan in Paris.

Ben: Will this person always consider
you a father?

Ongan Alisma: All of them, Im their
spiritual father.

Ben: The traditions of this onf are in
place where they establish themselves?
Do they trace new traditions in it, or
what liberty do they have?

Ongan Alisma: They can do what they
want in their own onf as long as they
respect the principle of the discipline of
the lwa.

Ben: Tell me, what is the most difficult
part of being an ongan? There are a lot of
songs that speak about the difficulties an
ongan can have in the work he does.

Ongan Alisma: There are some illnesses
that come before you. Depending on the
sick person, you see its a tragedy it is
difficult to find a solution for the person.
You have to find it. Its hard. A kanzo
hatching is very difficult.

Ben: A kanzo hatching, what is that?

Ongan Alisma: A kanzo promotion.

Ben: Its difficult, all the work it
requires?

Ongan Alisma: Its very difficult, despite
having a lot of people helping you.

Ben: Oke, paske se travay, sa rete.

Ongan Alisma: Anhan! Li vrman di. Non
slman w jwenn anpil moun ap ede, e
anpil moun tou ap travay pou lajan yo. Li
toujou di toujou. Ske li vrman difisil, e
f l ft. Se travay Ginen an. Si Ginen an di
w al preche labn nouvl ou pa gen
lechwa. Ou oblije preche labn nouvl
paske se wl pa w. Si w p al preche
labnn nouvl ki moun ki prale pou ou ?
Wch yo pa preche l pou ou. Pyebwa yo
pa preche l pou ou. Dlo yo pa preche l
pou ou. Bn nouvl pa nou se ouvri de
men nou byen laj pou nou aksepte pitit
yo k ap f chemen lakay yo antre.

Ben: Sa w pi renmen? Kisa ki ba w
kouraj, ki ba ou anvi kontinye f travay
ongan?

Ongan Alisma: Sa ki ban mwen anvi e
ankouraje mwen se l ke mwen fin pran
tout tan mwen pou mwen f fmasyon
yon pitit epi rek pitit sa vin ap remt
mwen apr. Sa f m santi m viv. M santi
m kontan tan mwen an pa t gaspiye pou
granmesi. Kouraj mwen an pa t envsti
pou granmsi. Travay la te bon. Sa
ankouraje m pou m kontinye.

Ben: Jan Vodou genyen enpak nan lavi
yo?

Ongan Alisma: Anhan paske l w ap gade
yon maladi vin lakay ou se sou kabann
yo pote l epi w ap voye l al lakay li sou de
pye l epi plita l ap retounen vin b kote
w pou l ap vin remsye w. Sa f m plezi.

Ben: Pou ou menm ki kalite kontribisyon

Ben: Okay, because its work, that
remains.

Ongan Alisma: Uh huh! Its really hard.
Not only do you have a lot of people
helping you, a lot of people are working
for their money too. So, its very difficult
and it has to be done. Its the Ginens
work. If Ginen tells you to go preach the
good news, you dont have a choice. You
are obliged to preach the good news
because that is your role. If you dont go
preach the good news who will go for
you? The rocks wont preach for you.
The waters wont preach it for you. Our
good news is to open our two hands real
wide to accept our children who are on
their way home.

Ben: You like this the best? What gives
you courage, gives you the desire to
want to continue the work of an ongan?

Ongan Alisma: What gives me desire and
encourages me, is when an initiate Ive
spent all my time to form repays me
afterwards with their record. That
makes me feel alive. I feel content that
my time was not needlessly wasted. My
courage was not needlessly invested.
The work was good. This encourages me
to continue.

Ben: In the way Vodou impacts their
lives?

Ongan Alisma: Uh huh, because when
youre looking at a sick person whos
come to you carried on a bed and you
send them home on their two feet and
later he returns to you to thank you. That
pleases me.

Ben: For you what kind of intellectual

onivo entelektyl tankou liv ou kapab w
nan lavni w? ske w ta renmen f liv sou
Vodou oubyen slman liv pou sosyete a?
Ki wl ou w nan pibikasyon liv
Vodouwizan chante oubyen lapriy?

Ongan Alisma: Mwen f liv deja. Li rete
andedan sosyete a. Se on liv de fmasyon
sosyete a. L ou gen on pitit w ap
prepare l f ke w ba li yon liv pou l kapab
gade kman bagay yo ye pou l aprann yo
pou l mete yo an pratik epi pou w ba l
yon ts pou w pmt li tonbe nan
kategori li pral tonbe andedan sistm
nan. Nou pa pibliye liv men nou gen liv n
ap travay sou yo la pou nou kapab
pibliye.

Ben: Pou w mete devan piblik la?

Ongan Alisma: Wi!

Ben: Ou panse sa kapab gen on wl
pozitif sou kijan etranje jije Vodou?

Ongan Alisma: Jan etranje jije Vodou, liv
sa ka montre yo sa w prevwa de Vodou a
se pa vr. Vodou a se yon mist l ye. Si ou
enterese aprann, ou dwe antre andedan
n pou w vin aprann klke choz k ap bon
pou avni w.

Ben: Dapre sa ki nan lide m, pif onf p
ap ofri liv edikatif bay moun ki pral f
kanzo. Ki kote ou vini avk lide sa? L ou
te vin ongan ske ou te gen liv tou nan
men moun ki te fme w?

Ongan Alisma: Mwen pa t gen liv nan
men moun ki te fme mwen. L ke pou w
inisye ou pa gen on liv. Ske ou pa gen on
contributions, like books, do you see in
your life? Would you like to write books
on Vodou or only books for the society?
What is your role in the publication of
Vodouist song books or prayers?

Ongan Alisma: Ive already written
books. It stays in the society. Its a book
of training for the society. When you
have children youre preparing, you have
to give him a book. So that he can see
how the things are; so he can learn to put
them in practice and then youll give him
a test to allow him to fall into the
category hes going to fall into in the
system. We dont publish books but we
have books were working on in order to
publish.

Ben: For you to place before the public?

Ongan Alisma: Yes!

Ben: Do you think that can have a
positive effect on how foreigners
perceive Vodou?

Ongan Alisma: The way foreigners judge
Vodou, this book will show them that
what they thought of Vodou is not true.
Vodou is a mystery. If youre interested
in learning, you need to enter into it to
learn a few things that will be beneficial
for your future.

Ben: According to what I know, most
onf dont offer educational books to
people who will undergo kanzo. Where
did you come up with this idea? When
you became an ongan did you also have
books from the person who trained you?

Ongan Alisma: I didnt have books from
the person who trained me. When youre
being initiated, you dont have a book. So

mach a swiv men, l ke w gen on mach a
swiv travay la ale pi vit. Sa fasilite
konesans. Ou kapte konesans ritwl
Ginen an pi vit. Sa pmt ou vanse pi vit
andedan sistm nan. Se sa k f w ap w
m gen dwa fin kanzo on pitit la apr twa
kat senk si mwa li ka f kanzo pa l li
menm paske l deja prepare. Tout sa l
manke, l ap w andedan liv li a.

Ben: L ou di fme on kanzo e sa pran si
mwa nou konnen se seremoni antre
kanzo avk leve kanzo se yon semn.
Men dapre sa mwen detekte nan sa ou di
an reyalite se yon fmasyon ki pi gran
pase sa. Se tout on si mwa, se ennan etid
pou w pmt moun sa vin kandida
kanzo. Donk, se pa jis on semn? Gen
anpil tan preparasyon pou moun nan ft.

Ongan Alisma: Anhan! Si w pran moun
nan mwen de on semn ou mete andan
djvo a, se yon mechanste.

Ben: Poukisa, paske li pa prepare?

Ongan Alisma: Li pa prepare. Ou pa ede l
anrichi konesans li. Se pou w aprann li
de sistm nan.

Ben: Menm avan li antre nan djvo a?

Ongan Alisma: Avan menm.

Ben: Pou l konnen sa li pral f?

Ongan Alisma: Wi!

Ben: Pou w ongan menm, konbyen tan
you dont have steps to follow but, when
you have steps to follow the work goes
by much faster. This facilitates
knowledge. You grasp the knowledge of
the Ginen rituals much faster. This
allows you to advance much faster in the
system. Thats why youll see Ill finish
promoting a child and after three, four,
five, six months he can do his own kanzo
promotions because hes already
prepared. Anything hes missing, hell
find in the book.

Ben: When you say training a kanzo and
that takes six months we know the kanzo
entry and kanzo completion ceremonies
take one week. But, according to what I
detect in what youre saying, in reality
its training that takes longer than that.
Its six months; its one year of study to
permit this person to become a kanzo
candidate. So, is it not just one week?
Theres a lot of time for preparation for
the person to do?

Ongan Alisma: Uh huh! If you take the
person and in less than a week you place
them in the djvo, its a cruelty.

Ben: Why, because he isnt ready?

Ongan Alisma: He is not ready. You
didnt help him enrich his knowledge.
You have to teach him of the system.

Ben: Even before he enters into the
djvo?

Ongan Alisma: Even before!

Ben: So he can know what to do?

Ongan Alisma: Yes!

Ben: For you to even be an ongan, how

ou panse etranje km mwen, si mwen
vle vin ongan, si lwa yo rele m pou m f
sa, konbyen tan sa kapab pran yon moun
ki pa leve nan kreyl, ki pa leve nan
sistm Vodou a?

Ongan Alisma: Li depan de jan ke w
aprann. Li kapab pran ou katran, stan,
dizan, distan, ventan. Tou depan de jan
ke w aprann paske gen moun ki aprann
vit; gen moun ki aprann dousman.

Ben: Youn nan travay ongan yo se evalye
ki kote moun nan ye sou chemen
konesans lan?

Ongan Alisma: Wi!

Ben: Avk ts?

Ongan Alisma: Anhan!

Ben: Se ts oral oubyen ou pral mande
moun nan ekri tou?

Ongan Alisma: Menm ts sa ou ka pran l
aloral, ou ka pral a lekri. Sa depan ke jan
ke w vle. Ou k mande ts la jan ke w vle.

Ben: Nan anpil seremoni Vodou, prske
tout mwen te temwanye, mwen w n ap
bat tanbou, n ap chante, n ap danse, nou
gen rit n ap swiv, regleman ongan ou.
ske w ka pale plis sou wl chante?
Dapre sa m w, pa gen yon moman kot
ongan pral kanpe preche. Gen kk
moman li kapab pale avk piblik la, avk
onsi yo, men sanble se plis on sistm ki
baze nan chante. Sa ou kapab di nan sa?
Ki wl chante yo?

much time do you think a foreigner like
me, if I want to become an ongan, if the
lwa call me to do that, how much time
would that take a person who didnt
grow up in Creole, who didnt grown up
in the Vodou system?

Ongan Alisma: It depends on how you
learn. It can take you four years, seven
years, ten years, seventeen years, or
twenty years. It all depends on how you
learn because there are people who
learn fast; there are people who learn
slowly.

Ben: Is one of the jobs of the ongan to
evaluate where the person is on this
learning path?

Ongan Alisma: Yes!

Ben: With tests?

Ongan Alisma: Uh huh!

Ben: Is it an oral test or will you ask the
person to write as well?

Ongan Alisma: You can take the same
test written or orally. That depends on
how you want it. You can ask for the test
in the way you want it.

Ben: In a lot of Vodou ceremonies,
almost all of the ones I observed, I see
that you all are beating drums, you all
are singing, you all have rites that youre
following, the requirements of the
ongan. Can speak more on the role of
songs? From what I have seen, there isnt
a moment when an ongan will stand and
preach. There are moments when hell
speak to the public, with the onsi, but it
seems as if its a system thats mostly
based on song. What can you say to that?

Ongan Alisma: Gen anpil mesaj ki pase
anvr de chante yo. Gen anpil lwa tou ki
vini anvr de chante.

Ben: Oke, sa atire yo?

Ongan Alisma: Anhan!

Ben: Sa k f ongan, manbo pa kanpe pou
yo preche pandan trant minit, indtan?
ske se jis sa pa f pratik kilti a,
tradisyon an oubyen li mwens efikas?

Ongan Alisma: Andedan Sosyete Linto e
dt sosyete ank ongan an kanpe li
preche plis ke trant minit. Non slman
ongan an ka f sa, gen lwa ki vini ki
kanpe epi li f plis ke sa.

Ben: Lwa a gen dwa monte ongan pou l
bay on kalite mesaj, prch, konsy? Sa ka
pran anpil tan si li vle? Donk sa egziste ?

Ongan Alisma: Wi li ft; li egziste. Li ft
souvan.

Ben: Pou yon moun ki pa f pati onf w,
pa egzanp, mwen menm m konn vini nan
seremoni, men apre konvsasyon nou
gentan f yo mwen vin konprann se yon
peristil ki aktiv anpil. Ou gen rankont
defwa pa semn, oubyen twa fwa. Ou gen
tout on seri de aktivite ki ft. Pale plis
sou sa nou ka w. Dy seremoni ki
kalite reyinyon nou f ? Ki rezon nou f
yo?

Ongan Alisma: Nou f reyinyon de
What is the role of the songs?

Ongan Alisma: There are alot of
messages passed through the songs.
There are also a lot of lwa who come
through songs.

Ben: Okay, that attracts them?

Ongan Alisma: Uh huh!

Ben: How come ongan, manbo dont
stand and preach for thrity minutes, an
hour? Is it just that thats not part of the
culture, the tradition or is it least
effective?

Ongan Alisma: Inside Societe Linto and
other societies the ongan stands and
preaches for more than thirty minutes.
Not only does the ongan preach, there
are lwa who come and do more than
that.

Ben: The lwa can ride an ongan to give a
sort of message, sermon, advice? Can
this take a long time if he wants? So, this
exists?

Ongan Alisma: Yes it happens; it exists. It
happenes often.

Ben: For someone who isnt a member of
your onf, for example, I sometimes
come to the ceremonies, but after the
conversations weve already had I have
come to understand its a very active
peristil. You have meetings two times
per week, or three times. You have a
series of activities that occur. Speak
more on what we could see. After the
ceremony what kind of meetings do you
do? Why do you do them?

Ongan Alisma: We have training

fmasyon. Reyinyon de fmasyon kote
ke n ap f fmasyon pitit yo. Nou aprann
yo plis ke sa yo konnen. Tankou, nou gen
on reyinyon lendi ft avk on ongan,
manbo ki ale nt. Sa w mete yo chita pou
w montre yo kman yo kapab diferansye
on tt f mal natirl avk yon tt f mal
fetich. Tt f mal fetich se sa dokt pa ka
w a. Tt f mal natirl se sa dokt kapab
w. L on malad vin devan yo, yo dwe
kapab f diferans sa: fetich e natirl. Si se
fetich pou yo trete l men kisa pou yo f.
Sou klkeswa fm li vini an, f yo trete l.
Si l se natirl tou, pou yo aji avk
konsyans deswa pou yo voye l al w
dokt san yo pa defann lajan avk li. Si
moun nan ta genyen yon dk, tt f mal,
pou w kapab f diferans lan menm jan
pou w konn sa pou w f. Si moun nan ta
gen yon maladi gwo vant, menm jan. Si
moun nan ta gen bagay k ap mache nan
tout k l pou w kapab idantifye kisa sa ye
e kisa w ka f pou w pote solisyon lakay
moun sa a. Dt e dt toujou. Se reyinyon
sa nou f l lendi. Lemkredi nou f on
reyinyon a tout sosyete a. Reyinyon nou
f avk yo nou pale yo de lwa yo:
eksplike yo lwa yo, ki wl yo andedan
sistm nan. Kisa tl lwa ka f; kisa tl lwa
pa ka f. L w f demann a tl lwa men
poukisa w dwe f demann avk li. Paske
nan pati sa li bon. Sa men nan lt pati li
bon, ou ka f demann avk li de sa. Si m
konnen w bon nan chapant, m f demann
de chapant. Si m konnen w bon nan
ferayl, m f demann de ferayl. Si m
konnen w bon nan medsin, m f demann
av w de medsin. Tout branch ke w bon
yo. Menm l gen plizy kalite medsin,
gen plizy kalite lwa tou ki la pou w
bagay yo. Se sa nou f nan reyinyon
mkredi epi nou montre w chante lwa
yo. L w se on manbo, ou se on ongan, ou
se on Vodouwizan f w konnen chante
yo. Menm l w pa ka konn tout, men f w
meetings. Meetings for training where
we form the children (initiates). We
teach them more than they know. For
instance, we have a meeting on Mondays
with an ongan and a manbo who have
gone all the way. You sit them down and
you show them how they can
differentiate a natural headache with a
fetish headache. A fetish headache is
what the doctors cant see. Doctors can
see a natural headache. When a sick
person comes before them they need to
be able to tell the difference: fetish and
natural. If its fetish requiring treatment,
this is what they do. If its natural they
have to be aware of this to send them to
see the doctor without discussing money
with him. If the person had a headache,
you have to be able to tell the difference
the same way you have to know what to
do. If the person had a large stomach
illness, same thing. If the person had
things crawling throughout their bodies
you have to able to identify what that is
and what you can do to bring this person
a solution. More and more still. Thats
the meeting we have on Mondays. On
Wednesdays we have a meeting with the
whole society. At this meeting we tell
them about the lwa: explain the lwa,
what their roles are in the system, what
this lwa can do, what that lwa cant do.
When you make a request with this lwa
here is why youre supposed to make a
request of him. Because, in this area hes
skilled. This one here, this other area its
skilled at, you can make requests of him
in this. If I know youre skilled in
carpentry, I make carpentry requests. If I
know youre skilled in ironworking, Ill
make ironworking requests. If I know
youre good at medicine, Ill make
medicine requests. All the areas youre
good at. Even though there are multiple
types of medicine, there are multiple

konnen enpe. Reyinyon samdi, nou f l
anvr de strikti de baz de sosyete a e
fmasyon de moralite sosyete a: strikti
sosyete a, de preparasyon, de
prezantasyon seremoni yo.

Ben: Donk, chak reyinyon pandan semn
nan gen objektif li?

Ongan Alisma: Li gen wl pa l.

Ben: Mwen se on moun ki renmen
chante anpil. Mwen te toujou mande tt
mwen kijan onsi yo te konnen tout
chante sa yo e kounye a la m w se youn
nan eleman edikatif onf sa genyen.

Ongan Alisma: Se sa k f w ap w
andedan sosyete Linto, nou prepare pt
drapo pa nou ki pou pote drapo. Nou
prepare laplas [master of ceremonies], ki
pou kondwi seremoni an. Nou prepare
yon manbo ki kapab kouri Ayizan. Nou
prepare d manbo ki kapab kouri
Alesina, ki vle di l w w tout klye yo
nan kou moun nan. Nou prepare tout sa.

Ben: Donk chak moun avk wl yo?

Ongan Alisma: Wi!

Ben: Sa ki enterese mwen nan koze
chante; ou gen chante ki soti nan nasyon
peyi d Ayiti. Se ansyen chante, tout onf
konnen yo. Men an menm tan tou mwen
toujou frapedepi m vini nan seremoni
types of lwa that are there for you to
utilize. This is what we do in the
Wednesday meeting and we show you
the songs of the lwa. When you are a
manbo, an ongan, a Vodouist, you have
to know the songs of the lwa. Even when
you dont know all of them, you have to
know some of them. The Saturday
meeting is on the fundamental
structures of the society and the moral
formation of the society: the structure of
the society, of the preparations, of the
presentations of the ceremony.

Ben: So, each meeting during the week
has its own objective?

Ongan Alisma: It has its own role.

Ben: I am a person who really likes
music. I always asked myself how do the
onsi know all of these songs and now I
see its one of the educational elements
of this onf.

Ongan Alisma: Thats why youll see
inside of Socit Linto, we prepare our
own flag bearers to hold the flag. We
prepare a master of ceremonies, to
conduct the ceremony. We prepare a
manbo who can run with palm fronds.
We prepare manbo who can run with
Alesina, which refers to when you see all
the necklaces around the persons neck.
We prepare all of this.

Ben: So each person has their own role?

Ongan Alisma: Yes!

Ben: Im interested in this discussion of
songs; there are songs that come from
the nation of Haiti. They are ancient
songs, all onf know them. But at the
same time also, I am always stunned

oubyen mwen li liv sou chantemwen
toujou jwenn nouvo chante. Se kmsi pa
gen kote ki svi ak menm chante oubyen
ske se pa sa?

Ongan Alisma: Vodou a genyen on
kontinyite alenfini. L ap vanse jiska
lenfini. Ki l lenfinite sa ka rive? Nou pa
konnen. L w pale de enfini se on bagay
ki p ap janm fini. Yo vini chak jou, chak ,
chak segond, chak minit.

Ben: Stadi genyen yon kilti kreyasyon
chante nan Vodou? Nou ankouraje moun
ki vini avk nouvo chante?

Ongan Alisma: Wi, asavwa ke chante a
genyen yon sinyifikasyon. Sinyifikasyon
sa vyen de lwa yo. Li gen on wl.

Ben: Donk pou ou menm, pou
Vodouwizan, se lwa ki voye chante? Se
pa moun ki kreye yo?

Ongan Alisma: Moun kreye chante yo
alimaj de lwa yo. Lwa yo kreye chante
osi.

Ben: ske gen de pafwa ou bezwen di
non sa pa on chante ki rekonesab dapre
sistm nan, ou bezwen korije moun ki
nouvo nan domn nan ki vini avk
chante?

Ongan Alisma: Wi ou gen dwa vin avk
yon chante, li pa abdab nan sistm nan.
M ap di w sa a pa bon. Avan ke mwen di
w sa, m ap di w esplike m chante sa.
Chante a dwe genyen yon esplikasyon
kork a li menm ki kapab dedye sa ke w
vle di a. L w bwote sou on fy papye w
ap ekri yon ti mennaj. Depi ti mennaj la
w lt ke w ekri l la ske li deja w
kman ou eksprime w de li menm. Si w
when I come to the ceremony or when I
read books on songsI always find new
songs. Its like there are no places that
use the same songs or is that not it?

Ongan Alisma: Vodou has an infinite
continuity. It will advanse until the end
of time. When will this end of time come?
We dont know. When we speak of
infinity, its something that will never
end. They come every day, every hour,
every second, every minute.

Ben: Which is to say there is a culture of
song creation in Vodou? You encourage
people who come up with new songs?

Ongan Alisma: Yes, as long as the songs
have significance. This significance
comes from the lwa. They have a role.

Ben: So for you, for Vodouists, the lwa
send the songs? People dont create
them?

Ongan Alisma: People create the songs
with the inspiration of the lwa. The lwa
create songs also.

Ben: Do you sometimes have to say no
that isnt a song that is recognizable
according to the system? Do you have to
correct people who are new in the
domain who come up with songs?

Ongan Alisma: Yes you can come up with
a new song and have it not be
approachable in the system. Before I tell
you this, Ill ask you to explain this song
to me. The song has to have a correct
explanation within it that can detect
what you want to say. When you bring it
on a sheet of paper, youre writing a
girlfriend. When the girlfriend sees the
letter you wrote its like she already

ap chante pou on lwa, f chante w chante
a ka eksprime w paske tout sa ou pa
kapab di lwa a an palan se li ou di l an
chantan. F yo gen sinyifikasyon; ou pa
ka djs rete pou w voye monte. Li pa ft
konsa.

Ben: Gen on chante, Azor chante ki di
Bondye asogwe. Se on ti pawl ki
enterese mwen. Sa ou kapab di sou sa,
Bondye asogwe? Ki sans ti pawl sa
genyen?

Ongan Alisma: L l di Bondye asogwe,
kiys? ske se Jezi oubyen se gran Dye
de Jewova ki di Dye de lm (? 41:43).

Ben: M panse se gran Dye.

Ongan Alisma: M pa kw paske li pa
kapab di Bondye asogwe paske li konnen
kisa Bondye f men li pa ka viv yo de
menm jan Jezi f. Li kapab di w Jezi
asogwe paske tout sa Jezi ap f yo se zak
asogwe. Se sa k f l kapab di w Jezi
genyen on konesans d Asogwe. Li pa ka
di p Olowoum asogwe [Yoruba term for
God, write Olorun in English]. P
Olowoum f nou. Avan l f nou li f dlo a.
Li f t a. Li f syl la. Li kreye a, e l f
nou epi l kreye dife. Li kreye tout bt yo.
La nou kapab di men sa yo di li te f men
nou pa t w avk sa Jezi f nou viv se de
bagay diferan. Ou kapab di Jezi; ou kapab
di l asavwa li travay de limaj de asogwe.
Tout sa asogwe f se li menm pou w ap
w Jezi f. W ap w l Jezi te monte ti
batiman avk Py li travse pa lotb
letan an e l te jwenn mesye malad la ki t
ap rakle soufri anba on kokenn chn
maladi. W ap w mov zespri sa ki te sou
mesye a ki te di Jezi pitit David la gen
knows how you express yourself for her.
If youre singing for a lwa the song
youre singing has to express your
feelings because all that you cant tell the
lwa with words, you tell it in song. They
have to have meaning. You cant just
senselessly promote. It doesnt work that
way.

Ben: There is a song, an Azor song that
says God is asogwe. Its a statement that
interests me. What can you say about
this, God is asogwe? What meaning does
this statement have?

Ongan Alisma: When it says God is
asogwe, who is asogwe? Is it Jesus or
great God Jehovah who is the God of
man?

Ben: I think it is great God.

Ongan Alisma: I dont think so because, it
cant say God is asogwe because he
knows what God does but he cant
experience them in the same way Jesus
does. He can say Jesus because all the
things Jesus does are things asogwe do.
Thats why it can say Jesus has the
knowledge of an asogwe. It cant say
father Olorun is asogwe. Father Olorun
created us. Before he created us, he
created the water. He made the Earth. He
made the sky. He made the air, and he
created us and then he created fire. He
created all the animals. What they said
he did that we couldnt see and what
Jesus made us experience are two
different things. You can say Jesus; you
say that he works in the image of an
asogwe. Jesus does everything that
asogwe do. Youll see when Jesus
climbed on the little boat with Pierre, he
crossed the little pond and he found the
sick man who was greatly suffering

pitye pou mwen pa lage m nan gwo tou
san fon sa non. Voye m pami kochon yo.
W ap w gen gadye kochon yo ki part ki
di ale, pa rete isi a. Vye bk, ale pa rete
isi a bk ke w ye. Ale nou pa bezwen w
b isi a. Sa montre w wi Jezi se te yon
bk. Tout ak Jezi yo ou deja w se ak
bk.

Ben: Mwen te kontre yon ongan an Ayiti
ki te di mwen l gen moun k ap manje
wch, moun k ap poze danje pou
lasosyete pafwa fanmi moun ki danjere
sa, moun ki malad mantalman, yo konn
desann lakay ongan pou li menm trete
moun ki malad sa, moun k ap manje
wch. ske gen plas pou moun ki
sikolojikman malad nan trtman w ofri?
Pa egzanp, li menm li pral mare moun
nan sou yon pyebwa. Li pral benyen
moun nan ba li manje. Li pral rann li
dous nan sistm pa l an Ayiti. Donk, yon
lt sosyete, lt fason pou l trete moun
mantalman malad, moun ki poze danje.
Kijan ou ta reyaji si ou gen yon manb
oubyen yon fanmi ki pwch avk onf a
ki vini avk yon moun ki vrman deranje
mantalman?

Ongan Alisma: Moun ki vrman deranje
mantalman se menm jan nou genyen yon
pitit nou la ki deranje mantalman ki soti
a Pari ki vin sibi on inisyason isit. De l l
fin sibi inisyason an a jodi a se de bagay
diferan.

Ben: Konsa kanzo kapab yon fason ou
trete moun ki deranje?

Ongan Alisma: Wi kanzo ka ede w nan
anpil bagay epi lwa yo ka ede w san
under an incredibe illness. Youll see the
bad spirit that was on the manwho
told Jesus, son of David, have mercy on
me, dont leave me in this deep large
hole. Send me among the pigs. Youll see
there are the guardians of the pigs who
appeared and said go away, dont stay
here. Awful bk, go, dont stay here,
bk that you are. Go we dont want you
here. This shows you that Jesus was a
bk. You already see that all the acts of
Jesus were the acts of a bk.

Ben: I encountered an ongan in Haiti
who told me when there are people who
are eating rocks, people who are
dangerous to society, at times the family
of this dangerous person, this mentally
ill person, go to an ongan to treat this
sick person, this person whos eating
rocks. Is there a place for people who are
psychologically ill in treatments you
offer? For example, he would tie the
person to a tree. Hell bathe the person
and feed him. Hell calm him down in his
own system in Haiti. So, its another
society, another way of treating mentally
ill people, people who pose dangers.
How would you react if you had a
member or a family member who is
close to the onf who comes with a
person who is really mentally deranged?

Ongan Alisma: We have a initiate here
who is mentally disturbed from Paris
who underwent an initiation here. From
the time he underwent the initiation and
now are two different things.

Ben: So kanzo can be a way to treat
disturbed people?

Ongan Alisma: Yes, kanzo can help you
with a lot of things and the lwa can help

kanzo.

Part V

Ben: Konbyen sosyete Vodou ki kapab
genyen nan lavil Miyami?

Ongan Alisma: Genyen anpil soyete
Vodou nan lavil Miyami. L mwen di
genyen anpil, ka genyen pr de yon
santn sosyete andedan vil Miyami. M p
ap ka site tout. M ap di w ou jwenn
Sosyete Linto, Sosyete Ti Pa Ti Pa,
Sosyete Sansiro. Oke Sosyete Linto, ou
deja konnen l deja, se ongan Michelet de
ongan Emanyl. Ou jwenn Sosyete Ti Pa
Ti Pa ki se manmi Toye. Sosyete Sansiro
ki se manbo Marikaml. Ou jwenn
sosyete Makaya ki se manbo Mikla. Ou
jwenn Sosyete Mach a Swiv ki se manbo
madanm Jan Jak. Ou jwenn Soyete Zila ki
se manbo Madona. Ou jwenn Sosyete
Trankil ki se manbo Kalin, de lando. Ou
jwenn Sosyete An Ka Bezwen ki se
manbo Elizabt d Ayiti. Ou jwenn
Sosyete Sen Jak ki se ongan Jowl. Ou
jwenn Sosyete Ginen ki se manbo Mari
Lidi. Ou jwenn Sosyete Sobo ki se manbo
Jmn, nan Bwawd. Ou jwenn Sosyete
Dereyal ki se manbo Patrisya. Ou jwenn
Sosyete Jan Simon Britis ki se manbo
Jmn Katrevende. Ou jwenn Sosyete
Trase Fouye ki se manbo Amalya. Ou
jwenn Sosyete Vyj Mirak e Sentiv ki se
manbo lsi. Pou nou pa al pi lwen, apr
sa gen dt e dt sosyete k ap pfme
andedan sant Florida. L yo di on
sosyete, on sosyete konbine pa sis
psonn. Depi w gen on sosyete ou dwe
gen on manbo oubyen on ongan. Ou dwe
genyen laplas. Ou dwe genyen pt drapo
[flag-bearers]. Ou dwe genyen
andjenikon [choir leaders]. Ou dwe
genyen prezidan sosyete a. Ou dwe
genyen sekret jeneral sosyete a. Tout
you without kanzo.

Part V

Ben: How many Vodou societies are
there in the city of Miami?

Ongan Alisma: There are a lot of Vodou
societies in the city of Miami. When I say
there are a lot there could be close to
one hundred societies in the city of
Miami. I wont be able to cite them all. Ill
tell you youll find Socit Linto, Sosyete
Ti Pa Ti Pa, Sosyete Sansiro. Okay,
Societe Linto, you know it already, its
ongan Michelet and ongan Emmanuel.
Youll find Sosyete Ti Pa Ti Pa run by
manmi Toye. Sosyete Sansiro thats run
by manbo Marie Carmel. Youll find
Sosyete Makaya thats run by manbo
Mikla. Youll find Sosyete Mach a Swiv
[Walk and Follow] thats run by manbo
Jean-Jack. Youll find Sosyete Zila thats
run by manbo Madona. Youll find
Sosyete trankil [Tranquille Society]
thats run by manbo Carline of Orlando.
Youll find Sosyete An Ka Bezwen [In
case of need] thats run by manbo
Elisabeth d Ayiti. Youll find Sosyete Sen
Jak thats run by ongan Joel. Youll find
Sosyete Ginen thats run by manbo Marie
Liddy. Youll find Sosyete Sobo thats run
by manbo Jmn in Broward. Youll find
Sosyete Dereyal thats run by manbo
Patricia. Youll find Sosyete Jan Simon
Britis thats run by manbo Jmn
Katrevende. Youll find Sosyete Trase
Fouye [trace and dig] thats run by
manbo Amalya. Youll find Sosyete Vyj
Mirak and Sentiv thats run by manbo
lsi. Not to go any further but after that
there are more and more societies that
are performing in the center of Florida.
When they say a society, a society is
comprised of six people. If you have a

sosyete m ap di w yo se sosyete ki
genyen yon baz a reyini. Sosyete ki gen
yon kote yo kapab reyini nan sant
Florida.

Ben: Isi w panse se lakay manbo a
oubyen ongan an oubyen se toujou sa
depan de kouraj li?

Ongan Alisma: Si li pa genyen peristil li
kapab genyen yon pozisyon nan
botanika li oubyen lakay li.

Ben: Konbyen seremoni Socit Linto
Roi Twa Mystres ganize chak lane?

Ongan Alisma: Chak lane Socit Linto
Roi Twa Mystres ganize twa seremoni
an absans de kanzo. Kanzo pa konte. Si
kanzo pa konte sosyete Linto ganize
twa seremoni chak lane. Premye
seremoni an se mwa d septanm. Nou gen
yon seremoni ki pral tonbe la leventwit a
ventnf septanm ki ganize pa premye
ongan ki de Socit Linto Roi Trois
Mystres, ki se Emanyl Lwi, alyas bon
ongan, ki tonbe ventnf septanm. Kenz
desanm pral genyen seremoni Legba ki
ft pa manbo Janin Bwalo. Tranteyen
desanm ou pral jwenn ft sosyete Linto.
Sa vle di ft kay la menm ki kmanse
tranteyen desanm, premye janvye, de
janvye, twa janvye, kat janvye.

Ben: Km mwen swiv ou menm nan
society, you need to have a manbo or an
ongan. You need to have a master of
ceremonies. You need to have flag-
bearers. You need to have a choir leader.
You need to have a president. You need
to have a general secretary. All the
societies Im telling you about are
societies that have a location to meet at.
Societies that have a place where they
can meet in the center of Florida.

Ben: Here do you think its at the home
of the manbo or the ongan or is it still
depending on his courage?

Ongan Alisma: If he doesnt have a
peristil he can have a position in his
Botanica Vodou shop or at his house.

Ben: How many ceremonies does Socit
Linto Roi Twa Mystres organize each
year?

Ongan Alisma: Each year Socit Linto
Roi Twa Mystres organizes three
ceremonies, not including the kanzo.
Kanzo does not count. If kanzo isnt
counted Socit Linto organizes three
ceremonies each year. The first
ceremony is the month of September.
We have a ceremony that falls on the
twenty-eighth and the twenty-ninth of
September that is organized by the first
ongan of Socit Linto Roi Trois
Mystres, whos Emmanuel Louis, alias
good ongan. December fifteen is the
Legba ceremony that is done by manbo
Janin Bwalo. December thirtieth is the
party of Sosyete Linto. That means the
actual party of the house that starts
December thirtieth, January first,
January second, January third, and
January fourth.

Ben: Since I follow you on Facebook, I

Fsbouk, mwen te w ou te gen yon
seremoni pou Danbala nan ane sa. ske
sa pral ft ane pwochen?

Ongan Alisma: Li ap ft chak ane.

Ben: Oke, men se twa ft sa yo
prensipalman ou genyen?

Ongan Alisma: Nou gen kat ft prensipal
men se twa ki aktif.

Ben: Sa k f nou deside pou nou mete
seremoni sa yo espesifikman?

Ongan Alisma: Komite a!

Ben: An menm tan tou ou te gen aktivite
l nou t ap selebre zili Dant. ske ou
pa konte sa ki te nan peristil la km yon
ft prensipal?

Ongan Alisma: Non!

Ben: Oke, poukisa?

Ongan Alisma: zili Dant se on lwa
inivsl. Ou jwenn zili Dant andedan
tout nasyon. Ske klkeswa ft k ap ft
la, li apatyen. Se menm jan klkeswa ft k
ap ft la, ou w Legba apatyen. Klkeswa
ft k ap ft la, Marasa apatyen. Se la nou
pa pran inisyatif pou nou di gen yon ft
spesyal, on seremoni spesyal anvr de
zili Dant.

Ben: Sa pa bezwen ft chak lane?

Ongan Alisma: Non!

Ben: Oke men kat lt yo?

Ongan Alisma: Ou jwenn zili Dant nan
see that you had a ceremony for Danbala
this year. Will this happen next year?

Ongan Alisma: Itll happen each year.

Ben: Okay, but you have these three
principal parties?

Ongan Alisma: We have four principal
parties but only three are active.

Ben: What made you all decide to have
these specific ceremonies?

Ongan Alisma: The committee!

Ben: At the same time also you had an
event when you celebrated zili Dant.
Do you not count what was in the peristil
as a principal party?

Ongan Alisma: No!

Ben: Okay, why?

Ongan Alisma: zili Dant is a universal
lwa. Youll find zili Dant in ever nation.
So that she will be a part of whatever
party is being done. Similarly Legba is a
part of whatever party is being done.
Marasa is a part of whatever party is
being done. This is why we dont take the
initiative to say we have a special party,
a special ceremony relative to zili
Dant.

Ben: That doesnt have to happen each
year?

Ongan Alisma: No!

Ben: Okay but the other four?

Ongan Alisma: You find zili Dant in all

tout de menm km Gede.

Ben: Si popilasyon Ayiti a se dis milyon
moun konbyen nan yo svi lwa yo?

Ongan Alisma: Si popilasyon Ayisyen an
di milyon mwen rete kw wi milyon svi
lwa yo. Lt de milyon ki pa svi lwa yo se
moun ki aje k ap chche kouvti andedan
Pwotestan. Tout jn ou w k ale nan
legliz yo, y ale pou on rezon plita y ap
vini nan seremoni an. W ap w lepli
souvan tou yo konvti Jeremi epi l
seremoni Latibonit yo vini men yo pa al
nan seremoni Jeremi. Sa Latibonit lan
tou. L konvti Gonayivli aksepte Jezi
km sov liepi l al nan seremoni
Jeremi kote pou moun leliz li pa w l.
Konsa zaf tout moun ap regle.

Ben: Ou konstate fenomn sa?

Ongan Alisma: Depi l m te kmanse a
jodi a.

Ben: Yon bagay ki enptan tou se koze
rap legliz Katolik avk Vodou. Kijan w
w sa? ske w w legliz Katolik km yon
bagay ki sti nan Vodou oubyen on
bagay ki anba Vodou, ki anwo Vodou,
yon bagay parall?

Ongan Alisma: Legliz Katolik vyen de
Vodou epi legliz Katolik ta renmen
anglobe Vodou anba l pou l anl. Sa a pa
kapab ft, menm jan tankou yon
manman ki fin f yon pitit epi pitit la t ap
w se li menm ki pou vin manman an. Ou
rete kw sa ka ft? L ap difisil.

of them, just like Gede.

Ben: If the population of Haiti is ten
million people, how many of them serve
the lwa?

Ongan Alisma: If the population of Haiti
is ten million I believe that eight million
serve the lwa. The other two million are
older people who are searching for cover
inside Protestantism. All the young
people you see who go to the churches,
they go for one reason, later theyll be in
the ceremony. Youll often see theyre
converted in Jrmie and when theres a
ceremony in the Artibonite, they go but
they dont attend ceremonies in Jrmie.
This is in Artibonite also. He converts in
Gonaveshe accepts Jesus as his
saviorand then he goes to the
ceremony in Jrmie where his church
people wont see him. This way
everyones business will be resolved.

Ben: Youve observed this phenomenon?

Ongan Alisma: Since I started until now.

Ben: The relationship of the Catholic
church and Vodou is also very important.
How do you see this? Do you see the
Catholic church as something that comes
from Vodou or something that is beneath
Vodou, thats above Vodou, something
parallel?

Ongan Alisma: The Catholic church
comes from Vodou and the Catholic
church would like to encompass Vodou
within it so it can be on top. That cant
happen, like a mother whos had a child
and then the child feels as if he can be
the mother. Do you believe that can
happen? Itll be difficult.

Ben: Menm pspktiv sa ou genyen l pou
Bib la? Kmsi Bib la sti nan Vodou?
Tankou gen anpil koze nan Bib la ki gen
aparans Vodouwizan depi ou konnen
sistm Vodou ou tcheke Bib la. Tankou
koulv Moyiz mete sou poto.

Ongan Alisma: Tout bagay vyen de
Vodou, menm Pak la. Ou pa w l gen on
baton nan men l? Ki senbl baton sa,
baton Moyiz la? Baton Moyiz la kisa li ye?
Si w konnen l ou mt di l.

Ben: Sa kapab baton Legba.

Ongan Alisma: On koulv...

Ben: L li f sa devan Farawon sa vin on
koulv, pou Vodouwizan se Danbala.

Ongan Alisma: Legliz nan Vodou pa bon.
Depi gen moun gen Vodou; depi gen
moun ki ka pale, ki ka respire, ki ka
eksprime yo, Vodou a. klkeswa nasyon
an. Nasyonalite pa gen distans.

Ben: Kite mwen pran yon ti moman pou
remsye w pou tout tan w pataje
jenerzman jodi a. Se on kokennchenn
plezi pale avk ou. Ou gen yon dnye
bagay ou ta renmen di piblik la oubyen
mwen menm?

Ongan Alisma: Vodou a se nou; nou se
Vodou a. Plas nou tout rezve andedan
Vodou a. Pa gen psonn ki kapab pran
plas yon lt andedan Vodou a. Tout otan
ke w poko vini, plas ou a rete disponib a
ou menm. Sa vle di ki l pe, ki l tn, f w

Ben: Do you have this same perspective
on the Bible. For example, does the Bible
come from Vodou? For instance there
are a lot of stories in the Bible that have
a Vodouist appearance. If you know the
Vodou system and you check within the
Bible. For instance, the snake Moses put
on a pole.

Ongan Alisma: Everything comes from
Vodou, even Easter Sunday. Dont you
see he has a staff in his hand? What does
this staff symbolize, the staff of Moses?
What is Moses staff? If you know it you
can say it.

Ben: It could be Legbas staff.

Ongan Alisma: A snake...

Ben: When he did that in front of the
Pharaoh it turned into a snake, for
Vodouists its Danbala.

Ongan Alisma: The church in Vodou is
not good. If there are people who have
Vodou; if there people who can speak,
who can breathe, who can express
themselves, the Vodou. Whatever the
nation, nationality has no distance.

Ben: Let me take a moment to thank you
for all this generous time you shared
today. It was an incredible pleasure to
speak with you. Do you have one last
thing youd like to say to the public or
me?

Ongan Alisma: The Vodou is us; we are
the Vodou. We each have a spot reserved
in Vodou. No one can take someone
elses place in Vodou. Your place will
remain available to you until you return.
Whether sooner or later, if you love

retounen pou w vin swiv kilti ou si ke w
renmen tt ou. Nou tout se Vodouwizan.
Se la ke nou viv transparan, lib e lib e
nou rete nou f apl ke nou ouv bra nou
pou nou resevwa tout pitit nou yo k ap
retounen lakay yo. L mwen di lakay ou,
Vodou a se lakay ou. Depi w gen san, ou
se Vodouwizan.

Ben: Msi anpil Ongan Michelet Alisma.

Ongan Alisma: Se on plzi Ben e mwen ta
swete on lt fwa pou n pale plis.

yourself you have to return to follow
your culture. We are all Vodouists. This
is where we live transparently, totally
free and we appeal to, we open our arms
to receive, all our children who are
returning to their homes. When I say
your home, Vodou is your home. If you
have blood, you are a Vodouist.

Ben: Thank you very much Michelet
Alisma.

Ongan Alisma: It was a pleasure Ben and
I hope we speak some more at another
time.

Benjamin Hebblethwaite Interviews Ongan Michelet Alisma

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Benjamin Hebblethwaite Interviews Ongan Michelet Alisma

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