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An Interview with Denise Scott Brown and Robert Venturi

Vladimir Paperny

Textandphotography: 2005VladimirPaperny clickonanyimagetoenlarge

An Interview with Denise Scott Brown and Robert Venturi

Reprinted from Architectural Digest Russia magazine
VladimirPaperny:Thefirstquestionisaboutthenatureofyourcollaboration.Doyouhave anyseparationofpowers,forexample,oneisresponsibleforideas,theotherfor images DeniseScottBrown(sarcastically):Yes,Idothetyping,andhedoeseverythingelse. RobertVenturi:Thatswhattheworldthinks. VP:Aretheretwoarchitectsorjustoneintwobodies? DSB:Itsveryverycomplex.Wedontfinditeasytoteaseourideasapart.Creativityinthis officecomesfromtwomindsandthenfromalotofothermindsaswell.Architectureisa bigsocialstructure.Thereisadifferencebetweenwhatwedoandtherestofthefirmin degree.Buttherearetimeswhenoneofusismuchmoreinvolvedinaprojectthanthe other,andeventhatmayveryoverthelifeofaproject. RV:Ingeneral,Deniseismoreintourbandesignandcityplanning,andpossiblyIamalittle moreintoarchitecture.Butwestillcollaborateandcritiqueeachother.Weliketheideathat creativityderivesfromcritiquingsomethingthatwasemphasizedbyT.S.Eliot.Itsmore importanttobeagoodcriticthantobeoriginal. DSB:FromBobsformulationyouwouldthinkthatnoarchitecturaldesigncomesfromme, butveryoftenintheprocessofmasterplanningandurbandesignthearchitecturalpartof theprojectcomesoutyoumayfindthefirstdesignideasintheplanningandurbandesign reportsbeforeweevenhaveanarchitecturalcontract.Itsverysimplemindedtosaythat designgoesinoneplaceandplanningintheother. RV:Butasfarastheeverydayrunningoftheofficenowmoreandmoreyouhavetobea businessman,abureaucrat,sadly,youhavetospendmoretimedealingwithallthose agenciesthanondesignweareequal. VP:Whataboutfurniture? DSB:ThatsmuchmoreBob.Ontheotherhand,whenIlookatthatchairIworkedwith himonthoseprofiles.ButhespentmonthsonitandIspentweeks.Ormaybehespent yearsandIspentmonths. RV:Butinthewriting,thebookcalledComplexitywasme,althoughneartheendshe influenceditscontent.LearningfromLasVegasisbothofus.PartsofitshewroteandI critiqued,partsIwroteandshecritiqued.Thisbook,ArchitectureasSignsandSystems, isalittledifferent.Thefirstpartisme,thesecondpartisher. DSB:Buttheideasareshared. VP:Whataboutbalancingbusinessandpersonallife? DSB:Whatpersonallife?Whatarchitecthasapersonallife? RV:Literary,weworksevendaysaweek.WeworkahalfdayonChristmas.Wedonthave muchlifebeyondthat.Onceinawhilewetravel.Onceinawhilewehaveavacationin Europeorsomethingbutgenerallywedonthavemuchlifeoutsideouroffice.Whenwe wereparentswefeltveryguiltyfornotspendingenoughtimewithourchild.Evenlastnight wewenttoanartexhibitionatamuseumbutactuallyitwasamuseumthatweendedup designinganadditionto,soinawaythatwasworktoo. DSB:Andourchildisjustthesameheworksallthetime. VP:Howoldisyourchild? DSB:Heisnow34. VP:Ialsohaveasonwhois34. RV:Isheadvisingyoualot? VP:No,helivesinNewYorkandIliveinLosAngeles.

VSBA:MainStreetsigninPhiladelphia,PA

DeniseScottBrown,RobertVenturiandVladimir PapernyatVSBAoffices
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RV:Well,weliveinPhiladelphiaandoursonlivesinNewYork.Iwasatareceptiononceand ayoungladywassayingbothmyhusbandandIworkalotandwedontseeenoughofour
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An Interview with Denise Scott Brown and Robert Venturi

PapernyatVSBAoffices

ayoungladywassayingbothmyhusbandandIworkalotandwedontseeenoughofour children.Isaidoh,Iunderstandentirely,thatwasaproblemwehad.OursonJimwas standingrightbehindmeandhesaidDad,yougotitallwrongIsawmuchtoomuchof youandmomwhenIwasgrowingup. DSB:Hewasbeingkind.Butsee,wecangoonacruisetoJapan,forexample.Butwegoto Japantoworksoweseesomuchmorebyworkingtherethanonaregularcruise.Its betterthanaholiday.Youarealwaystiredbutyouareneverbored. VP:Sowhenyoucomehomeyoustilltalkaboutwork? DSB:No,wejustvegetate. RV:WeflipTVchannels. VP:IfyoutypeVenturiScottBrowninGoogleyoullgetthousandsofreferencesbutmy impression(althoughitsnotanythingscientific)wasthatyougetmorereferencetoyour theorythattoyourpractice.Isthatsomethingthatbothersyou? DSB:IdontknowifitstrueitdependsonhowGoogleissetup.Therearepeoplewho sayVenturibuilthismothershouseandhasdonenothingsince,andhewroteabookin 1968TheyalwayssayVenturithewanttoforgetaboutme,pleaseputheraway somewhere.Anyway,theysaywhathasVenturidone,hehadoneidea,andthatwasin 1968.Wevedone400andsomethingprojects,about190buildings.Ouroeuvreislarge(of course,youcanput40ofourbuildingsintooneRemKoolhaasCCTVinBeijing,Iimagine) butinthelast15orsoyearspeoplearenotveryinterestedinit.Nowwearefindingthatin Europethereisalotofinterestinourtheory.SinceBobandImarried,Iveinsuredthatwe keptthebibliographyofourwork.ThismorningIwasintouchwithsomeoneinGermany andsomeoneinHolland,andthenyouarehere.Andeveryonesreadingourbibliography anddoingthesesonsomethingliketheroleofcontroversyinarchitecturalprofession. Ourworkisalsoavailablebutthepeoplewhoareapproachingusareonesdoingtheir doctoraldissertations,thereforetheyareinterestedintheory. RV:Thereasonwewritealotisbecauseweoftencannotdoit.Ifyouareaheadofyour time,andIthinkweare(Illberatheregotisticalhere),itsveryhardtofindaclientwhois willingtodoit.Apaintercandoanythinghewants,hemightstarvebecausehecannotsella painting,butatleasthecandoit.Anarchitectcannot.Soyouwritetogetyourideasout. We'vealwaysbeenconsideredcontroversial,radical,sowehadalittlemoretroublegetting jobsthanthepeoplewhoworkmoreinthelineofwhat'shappening.Ontheotherhand,we hadwonderfuluniversityclients(wedon'tgetdeveloperclients,unfortunately)andtheyare sophisticated,andtheyletusdowhatwecan.So,ifyoucan'tdoit,youwrite. DSB:ManyAmericanarchitectswouldsaythatwegettheprimeworkbecauseacademic clientsarewonderfultoworkfor.Clientsliketochoosearchitectslikethemselves,weand theyhavealotincommonbecausewe'vetaughtagreatdealinalotofuniversities.That's verygoodworkforus. RV:It'sfunthatwehaveavarietyofwork.WeworkedforHarvard,YaleandPrincetonbut alsoforMcDonalds. VP:I'vecomeacrosstwostatementsaboutyourwork.Oneisthatyourbuildingsarejust illustrationsofyourtheories.Theotheristhatyourtheoriesarejustexplanationsofyour buildings.Iseitherofthesecorrect? DSB:Botharewrong.We'vebeenverycarefultosayyoushouldnottranslateatheory intoabuildingyou'llgetaverydrybuilding.Wehavethisoscillationbetweenlooking, andresearching,andwriting,andworkingthingsoutinourheads,anddesigning,and workingthingsoutwithourhands.Andthesealwaysgotogether.Weseesomethingin TokyoorShanghai,andthatmakesusstartthinkingaboutarchitecture. RV:Weareverythrilledandinfluencedbyactualplaces.Icelebratetheanniversaryofmy firstdayinRomeeveryyear.Andwearethrilledandinfluencedbytheeveryday.

VannaVenturiHouse:Faade.

VannaVenturiHouse:Livingroom

VP:So,betweenthesetwoactivitiestheoryandpracticeneitherismoreimportant thantheother? RV:Yes,butwearefirstarchitects.IwantedtobeanarchitectwhenIwasthreeyearsold. VP:You'vebeenconsideredsomethinglikethefoundingparentsofpostmodernism. DSB:Anotherlie.ThepostmodernismthatwastakenupbyPhilipJohnsonandusedina verygrosswayisnothingofwhatweareconcernedwith.Buttherewasapostmodernism thatwasasocialmovement,theologicalmovement,literarymovement,whichtalkedabout theendofinnocencewiththeHolocaust,aboutmulticulturalism,aboutreservingjudgment, aboutbeingskepticalevenaboutyourownbestideasthatweverymuchagreewith.Ive tracedinfluencesonmethatcomeoutfromAfricaandthroughEuropewhereIstudiedin the50stoAmericaofthe60s.Outofthatwederivedacertainpostmodernismbutcertainly notthearchitecturalonethatwefindspecious.Ifitsourchilditsanillegitimatechild.

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An Interview with Denise Scott Brown and Robert Venturi

RV:IfirstheardthewordpostmodernismwhenIwasincollege.Ioccasionallyusedit.But wearenotpostmodernists. VP:Doyoubelongtoanymovement? RV:No. VP:Haveyoustartedanymovement? RV:No,wedidnottrytodothat.Architectsinventmovementseverymonthorayear.We donottalkintermsofmovements.Wetalkintermsofideas.Ifthereisamovementits incidental. DSB:IfeelIbelongtoagroupofpeople,whowerenotarchitects,atPenninthe1960s.I disagreedwiththemalotbutIfeelanidentitywiththem.Theyareallgoneanddeadexcept HerbertGans.PaulaDavidoffwasanother,LyndaDavidoff,TomReiner.Thesewerepeople whowerebattlingsocialissuesandurbanismandhittingarchitectsonahead.Iwasfighting backbutalsoagreeingwiththem.Theyandsomeofthethinkingthatwashappeningin Europeinthe50sIcameoutofallofthatandcertainlybroughtthatintoourmarriage.So Bobisinfluencedbythingsthathedoesntreallyknowaboutthroughme,ifyouknow whatImean.AlsothesystemsthinkersatPennandMIThadalotofinfluenceonme. RV:IreallywasneverpartofagroupbutwhatIcameoutofwasaparticulareducationIgot atPrinceton,intheSchoolofArchitectureandDesign,whichwasunfashionableatthat time,itwasnotHarvardorMIT.Whatwasinterestingthereisthatyoustillstudiedhistory eventhoughyouweredesigninginmodern.Thathadagreatinfluenceonmeandmy connectingofmodernismwiththeevolutionofarthistory,whichwasveryunusualatthat time,andthatsessentiallythebookComplexityandContradictioninArchitecture. VP:Atthetimewhentherewasthispolemicsbetweenthegraysandthewhites,were youapartofit? RV:Ihadnothingtodowiththat.Idespisedthat.Ithoughitwasjustselfpromotionyou giveyourselfanameandyougetanothernewsintoajournal.Theyconsideredmeagray butIwasnotinitatall.ThereisagreatquotebySirEdwinLutchensaboutoneofhis competitors,HerbertBaker,somethinglike:IfGodwasHerbertBakerhewouldfirstinvent thenamesofanimalsandthendesigntheanimals. DSB:Inthe1950sIwasinEnglandwhentheSmithsonsandthenewbrutalists rediscoveredearlymodernists.Thenin1953JimSterlingcamefromParis,andsuddenly LeCorbusierwasdoingthingsinbrown,notwhite.ButColinRowehadalreadyleftfor America.Ifhewaitedafewmoremonths,hewouldhavebrownsinAmerica,notwhites. VP:Hasyourpositionshiftedinanysignificantwayafterthefirsttwobooks,Complexity andContradictionsandLearningfromLasVegas?Isthereanythinginthesetwobooks thatyouwouldliketodisown? VannaVenturiHouse:Bedroom RV:Therewasonelittlething.InComplexityImentionedGiovanniMicheluccisChurchof theAutostradanearFlorencethatIthoughtwasreallybadbutlaterIvisitedthechurchand realizeditwasanextremelybeautifulbuilding.Butourphilosophyhasnotchanged,it evolved.Onearchitectsaidafteroneofourlecturesthatwehadnothadanewideainforty years.Myreactionwasthis:atleastwedhadanidea.Inasense,weareratherproudthat weevolvedanddonthaverevolutions.Sometimesrevolutionsmakesense,possiblyin 1905andin1917inyourcountry.Modernismwasanaestheticrevolution,andthatwas good.Buteversinceeverybodysaysyoumustbeoriginal.Youcouldbuycapsatoneof ourexhibitions.Onesaysheroicandoriginal,theotheruglyandordinary.Weareugly andordinary. VP:Youveusedthetermsduck[abuildinginashapeofaduckfromPeterBlakesbook GodsOwnJunkyard]vs.decoratedshed[aLasVegascasino].Isthisdichotomystill validtoday? RV:Yes,butwearenotsayingthatoneisbetterthantheother.Wearesayingthat decoratedshedisprobablymoreappropriatetoday. VP:Myimpressionwasthatyouusedthetermduckmostlyinanegativesense,although yousaidthataGothiccathedralwasbothaduckandadecoratedshed. DSB:Dichotomyistheproblem.Themoreduckyyouget,andthemorethatcallsfora buildingthatisaseparateidentity,hascivicvalue,themoredangerthereisthatyouuseit inappropriately.Youmakesomethingaducktheshouldntbeaduck.Wewerelooking atoldfactorybuildings,whichhadalittledecorationoverthefrontdoorandonthecapitals ofthecolumns.IcamefromEnglandwithagreatloveofthoseearlyindustrialbuilding.My feelingofamodernistwastheonlypityisthatlittledecoration.AndthenIwaslookingat theYaleArt&ArchitectureBuildingbyPaulRudolphandIsuddenlythought:theindustrial buildingsputalittledecorationinafewplaces,andwhyisthatnotbetterthandistortingthe wholebuilding RV:Tobeinteresting

VannaVenturiHouse:Stairs

VSBA:FranklinCourt,Philadelphia,PA

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DSB:Yes.AndthenIsuddenlythought:thewayhedidthatwiththeYalebuildingismuch liketheduckinPeterBlakesbook.ItbecameobviousthatIshouldstopdislikingthe decorationonthefactoryandseeitforwhatitwas:intherightplacesandtherightamount. VP:LasVegasofthe70swasmadeofdecoratedsheds.TodaysLasVegasis dramaticallydifferent. RV:Disneylandscenography. VP:Anditsallducks.WhatcanwebelearningfromLasVegastoday,ifanything? RV:WhatisreallyfunnyistowriteabookcalledLearningfromLasVegasthathadalotof influenceandthesamecity30yearslateriscompletelytheopposite.Iamakindof ProtestantQuakerytypeofguy,soIamkindofoffendedbythecurrentLaVegas.Iamnot findingitfunandthrillingtowalkthrough. DSB:I'mnotsurewe'reinapositiontobeabletolearnfromthenewLasVegasbutRem Koolhaasseemsasifheis.Buthedoesn'tlikehisLasVegasthewaywekindoflikedours. Fromanotherpointofview,SteveWinn,ingettingridoftheneon,alsosinglehandedlymore orlessturnedaroundthemarketinLasVegasandmadeitsomethingeverydifferent:no morecheapmealsandgamblingandamuchwideraudienceforthecitybasedonmany morethings. RV:Youcanbringyourfamilythere. DSB:That'stheeconomicpolicy,whichhebrilliantlyachieved.ThatissomethingIlookat withsomeaweandalsowithsomeloathing.Thereisabigirony.Youdon'thavetogoto NewYork,Paris,Venice,butyoucangetitallthere.TheoriginalLasVegaswaslooked uponasallprivate.Thiswasn'ttrueaswefoundout,therewasastrongpublicsector.Now youhavesomethinginLasVegasthatlookslikepublicsectorandabsolutelyisn't.People, whoweretryingtodemonstrateinLasVegasonasidewalkinfrontofthecasino,weretold movealong,movealong,thisisprivateterritory.Theysaidno,weareonthesidewalk. Thecasinopeoplesaidwouldyouliketoseewherethepublicsidewalkis?Andtheytook thedemonstratorstotheeightinchwidegranitecurbthatwaspublic.Thecasinoshave boughteverythingup.WhatlooksliketheepitomeoftheoldcivicEuropeisallprivate. VP:LetmegobacktoPaulRudolph.InLearningfromLasVegasyoucriticizedhis CrawfordManorinNewHaven.Yousaidthatverticalgroovesinthesurfacelookedlike marksofviolentlyheroicconstructionprocess,whichactuallynevertookplace.You seemtobecriticizinghimforlackofhonesty,whichisatypicalorthodoxmodernismkindof criticism. DSB:Yes,andweareonsomelevelorthodoxmodernists.Wehavetoreassessthe doctrineoffunctionalism.It'sstillagooddoctrine.Inasense,LasVegaswasmuchmore honestthatPaulRudolph.Itwasanhonestfake. RV:YouaskediftherewasanythinginourwritingthatIwouldwanttochange.WhenI criticizedPaulRudolph'sbuildingitwasaconvenientwaytoexplainwhatIwasdoingby explainingwhatIwasnotdoing.ButsincethenIfeelveryguiltyaboutthat.PaulRudolph wastheheadofthedepartmentwhoinvitedmetoteachatYale.Ilaterwrotehimaletter sayinglook,I'msorry,thatwasadumbidea. VP:Didherespond? RV:Heneverresponded. VSBA:UniversityofPennsylvaniaplanning, renovationandsignage DSB:Hedidrespond.IwasatapartyandPaulRudolphwasthereandhewasveryangry. Andhesaidtomeareyousayingthatthepeopleinourbuildingdon'tliketheirbuilding,are yousayingthealltheelderlyhavethesamevaluesystem?Isaidno,wewerenotsaying eitherofthosethings,itwasadiscussionofwhatwascommeilfaut,whatwasrelevant. Andalittlelaterhecameupandapologized,hesaidIdidn'tmeantobethatrudetoyou. BecauseIthinkheunderstood.Andthentherewasanotherfunnytimewhenwewere invitedtoapartyonfalsepretencesbyPhilipJohnson.Wedidn'twanttohavethisdebate withNewYorkarchitects.WethoughtwewerehavingdinnerwithPhilipandtheywereall thereandtheywereconstantlyarguingoverourheads.Wecouldn'tunderstandawordof whattheyweresaying,weweretryingtobringsomewhatwethoughtwereratherdirect arguments.Weeventuallycreptoutunderneaththeargumentandwenthome,andaswe diditIcouldseeakindofunderstandingonPaulRudolph'sface. VP:Inthe1970s,FredKoetteraccusedyouofbeingsociallyirresponsible,bywhichhe meantflirtingwithmasstastesandcelebratingdecadentstatusquo.Ifnotforfederal intervention,hesaid,thewhitemajorityinAlabamawouldhavenevergivenupsegregation. DSB:Ifhereadcarefullyhewouldhaveseenthatwesaidwewithholdjudgmentina temporarywayforaheuristicpurposetomakeourjudgmentmoresensitive. VP:Letmeplaydevil'sadvocate.Ithinkhewassayingthatcommontaste,common politicalinstinct,commonsensewereresponsibleforelectingHitlerinGermany.

VSBA:WelcomePark,Philadelphia,PA

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DSB:Youhavetochooseyourbattleground.FightingagainstNazismmaybemore worthwhilethatfightingagainstthebillboard.Anywhereyouwanttotakeit,itisn'tgood thinking.Societies,whichcontroltothenthdegree,don'tdowellbythatpeopleeither. VP:AnothercriticismbyFredKoetterwassomethinglikethis.Yousaythatyoudon'tjudge economicandmarketingrealitybehindLasVegasbillboards,youareonlytalkingaboutthe communicationsystem.But,hesays,youcannotreallypretendthatthisforcefeedingof theconsumercouldbeseparatedfromthesignsystem. DSB:Forourpurposeatthetime,lookingtolearnacraft,wecouldseparateit.Itall dependsonwhatyouaretryingtodo.Hedoesn'tthinkverywell.Heisjustanarchitect.He hasntbeentrainedtothink.Scientistswouldagreethatyouisolatevariablestounderstand them.Whenyouthentakeadifferentroleandyouhavetobringthentogether,ifyouleave oneoutyoucanbecriticized.Onceourdesignisdone,itcanbeevaluated.Whateverwedid togetthereisolatedvariables,didnotisolatethem,lookedatLasVegas,lookedat Koetter'sworkintheendourbuildingcanbecheckedforfunction,structure,meaning,or emotionalimpact. VP:TofinishwithFredKoetter,hislastargumentwasifMainstreetisalmostOK,whydo weneedarchitects? RobertVenturi:Iamnotapostmodernist DSB:Becauseofthatwordalmost. VP:Soarchitectureisjustalittlesizzling? DSB:No.Sometimesarchitectsdotoomuch.Inthe1960s,everyonewascriticizingurban renewalbecauseitdidtoomuch. RV:ItwasimportingacontinentalEuropeanideologytotheAmericanurbanscene. DSB:Indoingthat,withoutthearchitectsintendingit,ithadtheeffectofhumanremoval, particularlyremovalofthelowincomepeople,andparticularlythelowincomeAfrican Americanpeople.Ithadhugesocialconsequences.Sowewouldsaythatarchitectshadtoo muchinfluence,andwewerenttheonlyonessayingthat.Sothatsthebackgroundofour thesistrytodoless,bemoremodest. VP:Youdontseemtobeconsistent,yousaytrytodoless,butlessisabore,andthen yousaywedontwanttobeheroicandoriginal,weprefertobeboring. DSB:Youareright.Thesearewonderfulcontradictions,aren'tthey?

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