Richard Dawkins, the patron saint of nonbelievers, caused a stir earlier this year during a debate with the

Archbishop of Canterbury, who noted that his opponent is often described as the worlds most famous atheist. ot by me,! Dawkins replied before providing his standard e"planation#a supreme being is possible but highly improbable#which led a $ondon newspaper to proclaim that the worlds most notorious skeptic was hedging his bets. %ar from it. Dawkins, at &', remains an unbending and sharp(tongued critic of religious dogmatism. $ike any scientist who challenges the )ible and its lyrical version of creation, he spends a great deal of time defending Charles Darwins theory that all life, including humans, evolved over eons through natural selection, rather than being molded '*,*** years ago by an intelligent but unseen hand. Dawkins, who retired from +"ford ,niversity in -**. after '/ years as a professor of public understanding of science 0meaning he lectured and wrote books1, stepped into the limelight in '2&3, at the age of /4, with the publication of 5he 6elfish 7ene. 5he book, which has sold more than a million copies, argues persuasively that evolution takes place at the genetic level8 individuals die, but the fittest genes survive. Dawkins has since written '* more best(sellers, including most recently 5he 9agic of Reality: ;ow <e =now <hats Really 5rue. 6ince 2>'' he has become more outspoken about his skepticism, culminating in 5he 7od Delusion, which provides the foundation for his continuing debates with believers. ?ublished in -**3, the book has become Dawkinss most popular, available in /' languages with - million copies sold. 5hat same year he founded the Richard Dawkins %oundation for Reason and 6cience to support scientific education, critical thinking and evidence(based understanding of the natural world in the @uest to overcome religious fundamentalism, superstition, intolerance and suffering.! ;is books have made Dawkins a popular speaker and champion of critical thinking. An 9arch he spoke to -*,*** people at the Reason Rally on the ational 9all in <ashington, D.C.8 a week later he was at %ort )ragg in orth Carolina, offering encouragement to the first gathering of atheistic and agnostic soldiers ever allowed on a ,.6. military base. Dawkins lives in +"ford with his third wife, $alla <ard, best known for her role as Romana on Doctor <ho. )ut he is rarely home for long, and Contributing Bditor Chip Rowe had to travel to three cities to complete their conversation. ;e reports: Dawkins is a careful speaker with little patience for foolishness 0which is everywhere, especially among the faithful and the occasional Cournalist1, but he straightens and his eyes dance when he is asked to e"plain an evolutionary principle. <e met for the first time in $as Degas at a convention for skeptics. <e talked again when he visited ew Eork to lecture at Cooper ,nion and in <ashington, where he spoke at ;oward ,niversity, checked in with the director of his foundation, thanked its volunteers and visited the

impressive human origins e"hibit at the 6mithsonians ational 9useum of atural ;istory. During a tour with the e"hibits curator, Dawkins looked pained anytime he was compelled to chat, glancing furtively at the fossiliFed eye candy in every direction, including a wall of progressively modern skulls. At one point two young women approached. G5his is Richard DawkinsH one told the other, wide(eyed. A suppose its like bumping into )ono at the Rock and Roll ;all of %ame.! PLAYBOY: What is the A pin youre wearing? DAWKINS: It stands for atheist. PLAYBOY: Like a scarlet letter? DAWKINS: Its not meant to reflect that. Its part of my foundations ut !ampaign. It means stand out and reach out" as well as come out for the #eliefs you hold" and gi$e the reasons. Its a #it analogous to gay people coming out. PLAYBOY: Although atheists can marry one another. DAWKINS: %rue. PLAYBOY: Is there a #etter word for a non#elie$er than atheist? &arwin preferred agnostic. 'ome ha$e suggested humanist" naturalist" nontheist. DAWKINS: &arwin chose agnostic for tactical reasons. (e said the common man was not ready for atheism. %heres a lo$ely story the comedian )ulia 'weeney tells a#out her own *ourney from de$out !atholicism to atheism. After shed finally decided she was an atheist" something appeared a#out it in the newspaper. (er mother phoned her in hysterics and said something like I dont mind you not #elie$ing in +od" #ut an atheist? ,laughs- %he word #right was suggested #y a !alifornia couple. I think its rather a good word" though most of my atheist friends think it suggests religious people are dims. I say" Whats wrong with that? ,laughsPLAYBOY: .ou$e descri#ed yourself as a tooth fairy agnostic. What is that? DAWKINS: /ather than say hes an atheist" a friend of mine says" Im a tooth fairy agnostic" meaning he cant dispro$e +od #ut thinks +od is a#out as likely as the tooth fairy. PLAYBOY: 'o you dont completely rule out the idea of a supreme #eing. !ritics see that as lea$ing an opening. DAWKINS: .ou can think so" if you think theres an opening for the tooth fairy. PLAYBOY: It sounds like the argument made #y 0ertrand /ussell" who said that while he could claim a teapot or#ited the sun #etween 1arth and 2ars" he couldnt e3pect anyone to #elie$e him *ust #ecause they couldnt pro$e him wrong. DAWKINS: Its the same idea. Its a little unfair to say its like the tooth fairy. I think a particular god like 4eus or )eho$ah is as unlikely as the tooth fairy" #ut the idea of some kind of creati$e intelligence is not 5uite so ridiculous. PLAYBOY: 'o you arent taking 6ascal up on his wager. (e was the 78th century philosopher who argued its a smarter #et to #elie$e in +od" #ecause if youre wrong99 DAWKINS: %he cost of failure is $ery high. 0ut what if you choose the wrong god to #elie$e in? What if you get up there and its not )eho$ah #ut 0aal? ,laughs- And e$en if you pick the right god" why should +od #e so o#sessi$e a#out you #elie$ing in him? 6lus" any god worth its salt is going to reali:e youre feigning. %he odds are e3tremely low" #ut ne$ertheless its worth it #ecause the reward is e3tremely high. 0ut you may also #e wasting your life. .ou go to church e$ery 'unday" you do penance" you wear sackcloth and ashes. .ou ha$e a horri#le life" and then you die and thats it.

PLAYBOY: Assume there is a god and you were gi$en the chance to ask him one 5uestion. What would it #e? DAWKINS: Id ask" 'ir" why did you go to such lengths to hide yourself? PLAYBOY: &o you ha$e any deeply religious friends? DAWKINS: ;o. Its not that I shun them< its that the circles I mo$e in tend to #e educated" intelligent circles" and there arent any religious people among them that I know of. Im friendly with some #ishops and $icars who kind of #elie$e in something and en*oy the music and the stained glass. PLAYBOY: Al#ert 1instein and 'tephen (awking reference +od in their writings. Are they using the word in the sense of an intelligent designer? DAWKINS: !ertainly not. %hey use god in a poetic" metaphorical sense. 1instein in particular lo$ed using the word to con$ey an idea of mystery" which I think all decent scientists do. 0ut nowadays we$e learned #etter than to use the word god #ecause it will #e willfully misunderstood" as 1instein was. And poor 1instein got 5uite cross a#out it. I do not #elie$e in a personal god" he said o$er and o$er again. In a way he was asking for it. (awking uses it in a similar way in A 0rief (istory of %ime. In his famous last line he says that if we understood the uni$erse" then we would know the mind of +od. nce again he is using god in the 1insteinian" not the religious sense. And so (awkings %he +rand &esign" in which he says the uni$erse could ha$e come from nothing" is not him turning away from +od< his #eliefs are e3actly the same. PLAYBOY: .ou$e had a lot of fun deconstructing the idea of the intelligent designer. .ou point out that +od made a cheetah fast enough to catch a ga:elle and a ga:elle fast enough to outrun a cheetah99 DAWKINS: .es. Is +od a sadist? PLAYBOY: And #ad design such as the fact we #reathe and eat through the same tu#e" making it easy to choke to death. DAWKINS: r the laryngeal ner$e" which loops around an artery in the chest and then goes #ack up to the laryn3. PLAYBOY: ;ot $ery efficient. DAWKINS: ;ot in a giraffe" anyway. PLAYBOY: .ou argue !hristians worship a created +od. 'ome !hristians respond that their +od isnt created< hes eternal. DAWKINS: .ou could say the same of the uni$erse. .ou could say elephants support the world on their #acks. %here ha$e always #een elephants. I declare it #y fiat. PLAYBOY: %he attacks of =>77 seemed to make you more militant a#out your atheism" as if you had finally lost patience. DAWKINS: %here was a certain amount of that. A lot of people in the world felt a desire to stand up and #e counted. Any suggestion of anti?Americanism in my mind $anished. Ich #in ein Amerikaner. %hen +eorge W. 0ush destroyed that. 0ut it was also an anti?Islamic and an antireligious moment for me #ecause I was nauseated #y the way the response to Allahu Ak#ar was +od is with us" or whate$er the !hristians said9the sound of !hristian leaders in America uniting in support of the force that led to the crisis in the first place. PLAYBOY: .ou #lame =>77 on #elief in the afterlife. DAWKINS: .es. ;ormally when an aircraft is hi*acked" theres an assumption that the hi*ackers want to go on li$ing. It changes the game if the hi*ackers look forward to death #ecause it will get them into the #est part of paradise.

PLAYBOY: .ou mean the part with the 8@ $irgins the Aoran says await martyrs. DAWKINS: /ight. .oung men who are too unattracti$e to get a woman in the real world go for the ones in paradise. 0ut my point is these people really #elie$e what they say they #elie$e" whereas most !hristians dont. If you talk to dying !hristians" they arent looking forward to it. PLAYBOY: What will happen when you die? DAWKINS: Well" I shall either #e #uried or #e cremated. PLAYBOY: Bunny. 0ut without faith in an afterlife" in what do you take comfort in times of despair? DAWKINS: (uman lo$e and companionship. 0ut in more thoughtful" cere#ral moments" I take9 comfort is not 5uite the right word" #ut I draw strength from reflecting on what a pri$ilege it is to #e ali$e and what a pri$ilege it is to ha$e a #rain thats capa#le in its limited way of understanding why I e3ist and of re$eling in the #eauty of the world and the #eauty of the products of e$olution. %he magnificence of the uni$erse and the sense of smallness that gi$es us in space and in geologically deep time is hum#ling #ut in a strangely comforting way. Its nice to feel youre part of a hugely #igger picture. PLAYBOY: Are you concerned that your opponents might fake a death#ed con$ersion" as creationists ha$e tried to do with &arwin? DAWKINS: Whats slightly more worrying is the Antony Blew effect. Blew was an atheistic 0ritish philosopher who had an old?age con$ersion. It seems he went gaga. .ou cant guard against that. PLAYBOY: 'o if it happens we should assume you$e lost it. DAWKINS: .es. After my friend !hristopher (itchens was diagnosed with cancer" he was asked if he might ha$e a con$ersion. (e said that if he did" it wouldnt #e the real him. Whats rather wicked is when religious apologists e3ploit that" as they did in the case of Blew" who in his old age was persuaded to put his name to a #ook saying that hed #een con$erted to a form of deism. ;ot only did he not write the #ook" he didnt e$en read it. ,laughsPLAYBOY: .our call for militant atheism is one reason you were featured as a character on an episode of 'outh 6ark. %he shows creators" %rey 6arker and 2att 'tone" had #een accused of #eing atheists" so they thought of the most militant atheist they could skewer. DAWKINS: Its the only 'outh 6ark episode I$e seen. %here was an attempt at something approaching satire in the idea of an imagined future in which different sects of atheists are fighting each other. 0ut most of that episode was ridiculous in the sense that what they had the cartoon figure of me doing" like #uggering the #ald trans$estite99 PLAYBOY: %ransse3ual" actually. DAWKINS: %ransse3ual" okay. %hat isnt satire #ecause it has nothing to do with what I stand for. And the scatological part" where they had some#ody throwing shit" which stuck to my forehead9 thats not e$en funny. I dont understand why they couldnt go straight to the atheists fighting each other" which has a certain amount of truth in it. It reminded me of the #it from 2onty 6ythons Life of 0rian with the )udean 6eoples Bront and the 6eoples Bront of )udea. PLAYBOY: 6resident #ama acknowledged non#elie$ers in his inaugural address" which caused a fuss. 0ut when you consider religious #elief" one of the largest groups in the C.'. is atheists and agnostics. Why do they get o$erlooked in political discussions? DAWKINS: Its a good point. f course" it depends how you slice it. !hristians are #y far the largest group. If you di$ide !hristians into denominations" agnostics and atheists come in third" #ehind !atholics and 0aptists. %hats interesting when you contrast it with the lack of influence of non#elie$ers. And if you count up the num#er of )ews" certainly o#ser$ant )ews" its much smaller than the num#er of non#elie$ers. .et )ews ha$e tremendous influence. Im not critici:ing that9

#ully for them. 0ut we could do the same. PLAYBOY: .oure not hopeful a#out peace #etween Israel and the 6alestinians. DAWKINS: %heres not much hope to the e3tent that the most influential protagonists #oth #ase their hostility on @"DDD?year?old #ooks that they #elie$e gi$e them title to the land. PLAYBOY: What is your $iew of )esus? DAWKINS: %he e$idence he e3isted is surprisingly shaky. %he earliest #ooks in the ;ew %estament to #e written were the 1pistles" not the +ospels. Its almost as though 'aint 6aul and others who wrote the 1pistles werent that interested in whether )esus was real. 1$en if hes fictional" whoe$er wrote his lines was ahead of his time in terms of moral philosophy. PLAYBOY: .ou$e read the 0i#le. DAWKINS: I ha$ent read it all" #ut my knowledge of the 0i#le is a lot #etter than most fundamentalist !hristians. PLAYBOY: &o you ha$e a fa$orite $erse? DAWKINS: 2y fa$orite #ook is 1cclesiastes. Its wonderful poetry in 78th century 1nglish" and Im told its $ery good in the (e#rew. Eanity of $anities" saith the 6reacher" $anity of $anities< all is $anity. %he 'ong of 'ongs is terrific" and its more #awdy in the (e#rew" almost a drinking song. PLAYBOY: .ou$e made the point that if )esus e3isted and went to his death as descri#ed in the 0i#le" it was" as you put it" #arking mad. DAWKINS: %heres no e$idence )esus himself was #arking mad" #ut the doctrine in$ented later #y 6aul that )esus died for our sins surely is. Its a truly disgusting idea that the creator of the uni$erse 9capa#le of in$enting the laws of physics and designing the e$olutionary process9that this protFgF of supernatural intellect couldnt think of a #etter way to forgi$e our sins than to ha$e himself tortured to death. And what a terri#le lesson to say were #orn in sin #ecause of the original sin of Adam" a man e$en the !atholic !hurch now says ne$er e3isted. PLAYBOY: We hear constantly that America is a !hristian nation and that the founding fathers were all !hristians. DAWKINS: %hey were deists. %hey didnt #elie$e in a personal god" or one who interferes in human affairs. And they were adamant that they did not want to found the Cnited 'tates as a !hristian nation. PLAYBOY: 0ut you hear 5uite often that if you let atheists run things you end up with (itler and 'talin. DAWKINS: (itler wasnt an atheist< he was a /oman !atholic. 0ut I dont care what he was. %here is no logical connection #etween atheism and doing #ad things" nor good things for that matter. Its a philosophical #elief a#out the a#sence of a creati$e intelligence in the world. Any#ody who thinks you need religion in order to #e good is #eing good for the wrong reason. Id rather #e good for moral reasons. 2orals were here #efore religion" and morals change rather rapidly in spite of religion. 1$en people who rely on the 0i#le use non#i#lical criteria. If your criteria are scriptural" you ha$e no #asis for choosing the $erse that says turn the other cheek rather than the $erse that says stone people to death. 'o you pick and choose without guidance from the 0i#le. PLAYBOY: .ou$e said that science is losing the war with religion. DAWKINS: &id I say we were losing? I was *ust ha$ing an off day. PLAYBOY: .ou are surprised science is still #eing challenged. DAWKINS: I am surprised" #ut Im not sure its a losing #attle. If you take the long $iew of

centuries" theres an upward trend. /eligious people like to point out that Isaac ;ewton was religious. Well" of course he was9he li$ed #efore &arwin. It would ha$e #een difficult to #e an atheist #efore &arwin. PLAYBOY: .ou might ha$e #een the guy who didnt #elie$e in 4eus. DAWKINS: I would ha$e #een skeptical of the details of 4eus hurling thunder#olts" #ut I pro#a#ly would ha$e #elie$ed in some supernatural #eing. When you look around at the li$ing world and see the comple3ity of a cell and the elegance of a tree9I think that I shall ne$er seeG>GA poem lo$ely as a tree.G>G6oems are made #y fools like me"G>G0ut only +od can make a tree9I would ha$e #een mo$ed #y that. &arwin changed all that. (e pro$ided a simple" e3plica#le" worka#le story a#out how you can get the comple3ity not *ust of a tree #ut of a human #y physics working through the rather special process of e$olution #y natural selection. If only ;ewton had #een ali$e to #e told a#out that. PLAYBOY: %he e$olutionary #iologist 'tephen )ay +ould $iewed science and religion as99 DAWKINS: ;on?o$erlapping magisteria" or ; 2A. PLAYBOY: !ompletely separate. DAWKINS: %hats pure politics. +ould was trying to win #attles in the creation?e$olution de#ate #y saying to religious people" .ou dont ha$e to worry. 1$olution is religion?friendly. And the only way he could think to do that was to say they occupy separate domains. 0ut he o$ergenerously handed the domains of morals and fundamental 5uestions to religion" which is the last thing you should do. 'cience cannot at present9may#e ne$er9answer the deep 5uestions a#out e3istence and the origins of the fundamental laws of nature. 0ut what on earth makes you think religion can? If science cant pro$ide an answer" nothing can. PLAYBOY: 'ome scientists say that you should stop talking a#out atheism #ecause it muddies the waters in the de#ate o$er e$olution. DAWKINS: If what youre trying to do is win the tactical #attle in C.'. schools" youre #etter off lying and saying e$olution is religion?friendly. I dont wish to condemn people who lie for tactical reasons" #ut I dont want to do that. Bor me" this is only a skirmish in the larger war against irrationality. PLAYBOY: .ou$e said that if science and religion are truly ; 2A" !hristians must gi$e up their #elief in miracles. DAWKINS: A#solutely. 2iracles are a naked encroachment on sciences turf. If you ask people in the pew or on the prayer mat why they #elie$e in +od" it will always in$ol$e miracles" including the miracle of creation. If you dont allow religion to ha$e that" you$e remo$ed the reason *ust a#out e$ery#ody who is religious is religious. PLAYBOY: &o you get discouraged #y the continuing attacks on reason? DAWKINS: ;o. I go on the internet 5uite a lot and read what young people are saying. I see a great upsurge of good sense" rationality" irre$erence. America is split into hal$es. %heres the 'arah 6alin know?nothing idiots on the one hand" and then theres a huge num#er of intellectual" intelligent" educated people on the other. I find it hard to #elie$e that the 'tone Age types are going to win in the end. An awful lot of people who call themsel$es religious simply dont know theres any alternati$e. If you pro#e what they #elie$e" it turns out to #e pretty much the same9we all ha$e a sense of wonder and re$erence at the ma*esty of the uni$erse. PLAYBOY: .oure of the mind that religious #elief pro#a#ly e$ol$ed as an accidental #y? product. DAWKINS: Whene$er something is widespread in a species" you ha$e to reckon it has some sort of sur$i$al $alue. %heres pro#a#ly no sur$i$al $alue in religion itself9though there might #e9#ut

$alue in lots of rather separate psychological predispositions such as o#edience to authority. %hat has strong sur$i$al $alue for children. 0ecause theyre helpless and dont know their way around the world" they rely on parental wisdom. 0ut they dont ha$e the means of distinguishing wisdom that is wise for sur$i$al from wisdom that is nonsense. PLAYBOY: .our parents raised you in the Anglican church. DAWKINS: I wouldnt wish to malign my parents #y suggesting they fed me religion. I was sent to some of the #est schools" and as most such schools in 1ngland were at the time" they were Anglican schools. 'o I got daily prayers and 0i#le readings. I was confirmed at 7H. PLAYBOY: When did you first read &arwins n the rigin of 'pecies? DAWKINS: %wo years later. PLAYBOY: And it #lew your mind. DAWKINS: .es. %hat such a simple idea could e3plain the comple3ities of a peacocks tail" a #ounding antelope" a sprinting cheetah" a flying swift" a thinking human. %hese are immensely complicated machines" and yet we understand why theyre here. PLAYBOY: .our parents were naturalists who you$e said could identify e$ery plant in 0ritain. DAWKINS: 2y father read #otany at 3ford. I read :oology there. I wasnt a naturalist in the way he was" #ut I lo$ed going around the *ungle with some#ody who knew a#out it. PLAYBOY: Is there any particular way he influenced you? DAWKINS: !uriosity" scientific curiosity. PLAYBOY: (ow a#out your mother? DAWKINS: 'he didnt do a degree in science" #ut she had a $ery good knowledge of plants as well. I guess thats one of the things they did together. 'he educated me as a child" and I learned a great deal from her. PLAYBOY: .ou were #orn in ;airo#i. Why were your parents there? DAWKINS: 0ecause of his #otanical #ackground" my father *oined the agricultural department of the !olonial !i$il 'er$ice and was sent to 1ast Africa" to what was then ;yasaland and is now 2alawi. %hen he was called up to *oin the Aings African /ifles" which was the 0ritish regiment head5uartered in ;airo#i. 'o he went up north to Aenya and my mother followed. 'he had a certain amount of trou#le. 'ince she wasnt in Aenya legally" it was 5uite difficult getting out. ,laughsPLAYBOY: What do you remem#er a#out that time? DAWKINS: I remem#er a lot a#out ;yasaland. I remem#er the smells and sights and colors. It was a pri$ileged e3istence" with ser$ants. It was like setting the clock #ack 7DD years< it was a strange paternalistic society we li$ed in. PLAYBOY: When you were eight you mo$ed with your parents to 1ngland. DAWKINS: 2y father was left the &awkins estate" which had #een in the family since 78@H" #y a $ery distant cousin9so distant wed ne$er heard of him. %his cousin wanted the farm to stay with a &awkins" #ut e$eryone had daughters. It was a #rilliant choice #ecause my father was 5ualified in agriculture" al#eit tropical" and had the right kind of enterprising mind to turn what had #een a country gentlemans estate into a working farm. PLAYBOY: What did he grow? DAWKINS: We had )ersey cows" which as you know make a lot of cream. (e supplied all the local hotels and the 3ford colleges with cream. And pigs. %he acreage isnt that great. An eccentric &awkins of the 7=th century sold off most of the land to pay for lawsuits" so most of the family wealth disappeared.

PLAYBOY: &ecades after mo$ing to 1ngland" you wrote your first #ook during a #lackout. DAWKINS: In 7=8@ there was ma*or industrial unrest in 0ritain" and for whole days there would #e no power. I couldnt do my research" so I started writing %he 'elfish +ene. PLAYBOY: .oure a great fan of science fiction. What do you like a#out it? DAWKINS: I prefer science fiction that takes some aspect of science and modifies it. %heres a lo$ely no$el #y &aniel +alouye called &ark Cni$erse" a#out a group of people who li$e in total darkness and know nothing a#out light. And so light has #ecome a mythology. %hey use phrases like +reat Light Almighty and ha$e ceremonies when they feel a sacred light#ul#. +alouye changed one thing9he remo$ed light9and looked at all the conse5uences. PLAYBOY: As opposed to creating a fairyland. DAWKINS: 6rincesses riding unicorns isnt science fiction. PLAYBOY: %he 6lay#oy Ad$isor recei$ed this 5uestion from a reader: I feel uncomforta#le when a person I *ust met asks me whether I go to church" #ecause I dont. Is there an eti5uette to answering? DAWKINS: I would reply" ;o" I do not go to church. &o you" and if so" why? PLAYBOY: %hats what you ad$ised your daughter in a letter you wrote her when she was 7D. DAWKINS: What I did" and what I would tell other parents to do" is encourage her to think for herself. As an illustration" for 'anta I said" Well" lets work out how many chimneys there are. I mean" it would #e a fun game where we calculate that he would ha$e to #e tra$eling faster than the speed of light. PLAYBOY: What if the child #ursts into tears? DAWKINS: h" that would #e a shame. PLAYBOY: &id ha$ing a child change your outlook in any way? DAWKINS: I dont think so" though Im interested in the e$olutionary origins of su#*ecti$e feelings. I #ecame palpa#ly more ner$ous a#out things like heights. PLAYBOY: .ou saw danger e$erywhere. DAWKINS: %hats right. PLAYBOY: .ou ad$ised her that anytime someone presented her with a claim" she should ask" What is the e$idence? Was she popular with her teachers? DAWKINS: I dont know a#out her" #ut I ha$e heard horror stories a#out children who asked too many 5uestions of teachers of religion. PLAYBOY: All the atheists we met at the skeptics con$ention in Las Eegas seemed to ha$e a story a#out #eing kicked out of 'unday school. DAWKINS: .es" thats terri#ly funny. What a 'unday school teacher should say is Lets look at the e$idence. Instead they get cross. And the reason they get cross is that there isnt any e$idence. PLAYBOY: %hey get cross with you as well. .ou are asking a religious person to change his or her world$iew. DAWKINS: I want people to change their world$iew such that they demand e$idence for something theyre going to #elie$e. Its not a good reason to #elie$e #ecause our people ha$e always #elie$ed that. If youd #een #orn in Afghanistan or India" youd #elie$e something else. Another lousy reason is #ecause you ha$e an inner feeling it must #e true" or you$e #een told #y a priest its true. PLAYBOY: Aen 2iller" author of Binding &arwins +od" once scolded you #y saying atheists and

agnostics are more e$angelical than religious people. Is that your e3perience with atheists? DAWKINS: .ou can #e passionate a#out the need to look at the e$idence and passionately angry at people who wont do that. %hats not e$angelical< thats *ust angry. PLAYBOY: .ou like 2illers #ook" though. DAWKINS: It may well #e the #est refutation of creationism" though it goes off the rails when it tries to *ustify !hristianity. ne of the reasons I recommend it is not *ust #ecause its good #ut #ecause it is written #y a !hristian. Cnfortunately its written #y a !atholic" and many of the people were talking a#out think !atholics are worse than atheists. ,laughsPLAYBOY: In @D7D you spoke at a rally in London to protest a state $isit #y 6ope 0enedict IEI. DAWKINS: nly a#out @"DDD people were e3pected" and 7J"DDD turned up. PLAYBOY: .ou dismissed the pope as an enemy of children" gay people" women" truth" poor people" science and humanity. DAWKINS: It was a speech at a rally" so I used rhetoric. PLAYBOY: &o you #elie$e" as !hristopher (itchens did" that the pope should #e arrested? DAWKINS: (itchens wrote me suggesting we should arrest him" #ut we soon ga$e up on the idea of literally making a citi:ens arrest #y creeping up with handcuffs or something. Instead we asked +eoffrey /o#ertson" a distinguished human rights lawyer" to speak a#out the legal case against the pope for co$ering up pedophilia. (e also looked at the alleged immunity of the pope from prosecution as the head of a state" calling into 5uestion the notion of the Eatican as a legitimate so$ereign state. I responded to the popes uncalled?for truculence when he landed in 1din#urgh. %he first thing he said was to #lame atheists for (itler. Although I dont #lame the pope for #eing a mem#er of the (itler .outh" as he was $ery young" I felt this was pretty cheeky" really. If I were him Id keep my head down o$er (itler. PLAYBOY: .ou were impressed #y a few of the signs at the rally. DAWKINS: %wo of my fa$orites were keep your rosaries off my o$aries and hands off my eggs" #enedict. ,laughsPLAYBOY: %he pope apologi:ed for the se3ual a#use of children in the !atholic church. Isnt that enough? DAWKINS: h" #ig deal. (e hasnt handed o$er any records to the police. (e apologi:ed with great reluctance after enormous pressure was #rought to #ear. PLAYBOY: .ou ga$e a speech in &u#lin in which you argued that se3ual a#use is less damaging to a child than the psychological damage of #ringing him up !atholic. What was the response? DAWKINS: I got an o$ation. I want to make clear I was not talking a#out the sort of $iolent se3ual a#use we$e now learned had #een repeatedly going on. I was talking a#out mild caressing" which is #ad enough" #ut #ringing up a child to #elie$e in hellfire is worse. PLAYBOY: Lets turn to e$olution" which many people misunderstand" such as #elie$ing we descend from apes. DAWKINS: We are apes. We descend from e3tinct animals that would ha$e #een classified as apes. We are not descended from modern chimps or #ono#os or gorillas. %hey$e #een e$ol$ing for e3actly the same length of time as we ha$e. PLAYBOY: 'o what makes us human? DAWKINS: We are a uni5ue ape. We ha$e language. ther animals ha$e systems of communication that fall far short of that. %hey dont ha$e the same a#ility to communicate complicated conditionals and what?ifs and talk a#out things that are not present. %hese are all

uni5ue manifestations of our e$ol$ed ape #rain" which some e$idence suggests came a#out through a rather limited num#er of mutations. PLAYBOY: 6eter 'inger" who co?founded the +reat Ape 6ro*ect" suggests apes deser$e #asic rights. &o you agree? DAWKINS: Why stop at apes? Why not pigs? PLAYBOY: 0ut apes are our cousins. DAWKINS: 'o what? Were all cousins. What if octopuses" which are much more distant cousins" had e$ol$ed an intelligence e5ui$alent to ours? PLAYBOY: 0ut they didnt. DAWKINS: .ou can #ase your morals on kinship if you want" #ut why should you? Id prefer to go with )eremy 0entham and #ase my morals on the 5uestion" !an they suffer? 'ingers rather keen on the word speciesism. We ha$e a common ancestor with chimps who li$ed K million years ago. If you imagine holding the hand of your mother" who holds the hand of her mother" who holds the hand of her mother" and you go on and on to the common ancestor" the line would stretch a few hundred miles. And in its other hand the grand ancestor holds her daughters hand who holds her daughters hand" and you go forward to modern chimps. As you go #ack" e$ery one of those mother?daughter relationships would include mem#ers of the same species. PLAYBOY: 'o there was no first human. DAWKINS: ;o" ne$er. 0ut suppose an intermediate species hadnt gone e3tinct. 'uppose relict populations are disco$ered in the African *ungle. In order to deny chimpan:ees rights" you would ha$e to set up apartheid?like courts to decide whether this indi$idual counts as human. 0ecause its a continuum. As a practical matter" the intermediates ha$ent sur$i$ed" so its possi#le to gi$e humans #asic rights and gi$e chimpan:ees none. 0ut I think its a worthwhile argument. PLAYBOY: Are you pro?life? DAWKINS: 6eople who say theyre pro?life mean they are pro?human life. A four?cell em#ryo or a KL?cell em#ryo" or indeed one much larger than that" has no ner$ous system. .ou should ha$e rather less compunction in killing such a creature than you would in killing an earthworm" #ecause an earthworm has a ner$ous system and $ery likely can suffer. 'o o#*ecting to the a#ortion of $ery young human em#ryos is utter nonsense. #*ecting to older human em#ryos #eing killed is not utter nonsense. %heres no reason to suppose that their capacity to suffer is any greater than the capacity of an adult pig or cow to suffer. PLAYBOY: &o we know which came first9#igger #rains or #ipedalism? DAWKINS: 0ipedalism came first. PLAYBOY: (ow do we know that? DAWKINS: Bossils. %hats one place the fossils are e3tremely clear. %hree million years ago Australopithecus afarensis were #ipedal" #ut their #rains were no #igger than a chimpan:ees. %he #est e3ample we ha$e is Lucy ,a partial skeleton found in 7=8L in 1thiopia-. In a way" she was an upright?walking chimpan:ee. PLAYBOY: .ou like Lucy. DAWKINS: .es. ,smilesPLAYBOY: .ou$e said you e3pect mankind will ha$e a genetic #ook of the dead #y @DJD. (ow would that #e helpful? DAWKINS: 0ecause we contain within us the genes that ha$e sur$i$ed through generations" you could theoretically read off a creatures e$olutionary history. Ah" yes" this animal li$ed in the sea.

%his is the time when it li$ed in deserts. %his #it shows it must ha$e li$ed up mountains. And this shows it used to #urrow. PLAYBOY: !ould that help us #ring #ack a dinosaur? .ou ha$e suggested crossing a #ird and a crocodile and may#e putting it in an ostrich egg. DAWKINS: It would ha$e to #e more sophisticated than a cross. Itd ha$e to #e a merging. PLAYBOY: !ould we re?create Lucy? DAWKINS: We already know the human genome and the chimpan:ee genome" so you could make a sophisticated guess as to what the genome of the common ancestor might ha$e #een like. Brom that you might #e a#le to grow an animal that was close to the common ancestor. And from that you might split the difference #etween that ancestral animal you re?created and a modern human and get Lucy. PLAYBOY: .ou$e accused creationists of fighting dirty. DAWKINS: 'ure they do. PLAYBOY: Is that why you and other e$olutionary #iologists wont de#ate them? DAWKINS: 6artly. It also gi$es them a respecta#ility they dont deser$e. A colleague of mine likes to respond" %hat would look great on your !E" not so good on mine. PLAYBOY: What arguments do creationists typically hit you with? DAWKINS: Ignorant nonsense. %hey say things like Well" if were descended from chimpan:ees" how come chimpan:ees are still around? It isnt difficult. PLAYBOY: .ou often hear e$olution descri#ed as *ust a theory. Is it? DAWKINS: %he word theory can mean a hypothesis. 0ut the word is also used in a more serious sense as a #ody of knowledge. Its #etter to use the word fact. 1$olution is a fact in the same sense that the earth or#its the sun. PLAYBOY: %here is disagreement a#out what dri$es e$olution. DAWKINS: ;atural selection is the dri$ing force" #ut there is disagreement a#out what the selection pressure was. Bor e3ample" we know the human #rain grew #igger. Was it #ecause the more ingenious indi$iduals were the #est at finding food or e$ading predators? r was it #ecause they were the most se3ually attracti$e? Its possi#le an enlarged #rain is rather like a peacocks tail. &arwin proposed a second $ersion of natural selection" which he called se3ual selection. If peahens choose peacocks for the #rightness of their finery" then ne$er mind a#out sur$i$ing. %he ones with the #iggest tails sur$i$e less well" #ecause the tail is a #urden. ;e$ertheless if theyre more attracti$e to females" then the genes for making #ig tails are more likely to end up in the ne3t generation. It is 5uite possi#le the human #rain also got #igger due to se3ual selection. Intelligence is se3y. 2ay#e the most intelligent males had the gift of the ga#. %hey may ha$e #een good talkers" good at remem#ering the sagas and myths of the tri#e" or dance steps. PLAYBOY: r that she likes antelope. DAWKINS: 'omething like that. If a peahen chooses a male with a long tail" its #ecause she knows he couldnt ha$e sur$i$ed with a tail like that unless he had something going for him. Its all a#out showing females you are resistant to disease. %heres a dual selection9females #ecome #etter diagnostic doctors" and males #ecome #etter at #eing diagnosed" e$en if theyre actually ill. PLAYBOY: What role does chance play in e$olution? DAWKINS: 2utation" the raw material for natural selection" is random in the sense that it is not systematically directed toward impro$ement. 0ut natural selection is highly nonrandom" #ecause its choosing impro$ements from that pool of $ariation that mutation throws up. %heres also an

awful lot of chance in which species go e3tinct. When a comet hit the earth" all the dinosaurs went e3tinct e3cept #irds. A few mammals sur$i$ed" and were descended from those few mammals" perhaps those that were hi#ernating underground. PLAYBOY: .ou$e descri#ed life as a replication #om#. DAWKINS: If you look around the uni$erse" theres dead world after dead world. 6hysics goes on and chemistry goes on" #ut nothing else happens. And suddenly in one place theres an e3plosion" which comes a#out #ecause of replication. Bor some reason" the laws of chemistry gi$e rise to a molecule that self?replicates. 2ay#e this planet is the only time its e$er happened. 0ut the arising through some accident of chemistry of a molecule that makes copies of itself has momentous conse5uences. PLAYBOY: !reationists often try to am#ush you" such as the Australian film crew that hit you with !an you gi$e me an e3ample of a genetic mutation or an e$olutionary process that can #e seen to increase the information in the genome? and then" #ecause you paused" portrayed you as not ha$ing an answer. DAWKINS: %he way it happens is through gene duplication. .ou ha$e lengths of the genome that do some useful thing" and then a chunk gets copied and pasted somewhere else" where its free to e$ol$e in a different direction. PLAYBOY: 'o why didnt you respond? DAWKINS: I was thinking" Am I going to throw these people out? %his is a 5uestion only a creationist would ask" and they hadnt told me they were creationists. What they did was splice the 5uestion and the long pause with my answer to a different 5uestion" so it looked as though I was #eing e$asi$e. It was an a#solutely scandalous piece of mendacity. PLAYBOY: 2ost o#*ections to e$olution seem to come down to comple3ity. 6eople cant understand how something like an eye could ha$e e$ol$ed. DAWKINS: ;o matter how comple3 the eye may #e" its not as complicated as a god. PLAYBOY: !reationists lo$e to cite gaps in the fossil record" such as the large one that precedes the !am#rian e3plosion" the period a#out JHD million years ago during which there was e3ponential growth in comple3 life?forms. (ow can you e3plain it? DAWKINS: f course there are gaps< fossili:ation is a rare e$ent. 0ut if we didnt ha$e a single fossil" the e$idence for e$olution would #e a#solutely secure #ecause of comparati$e anatomy" comparati$e #iochemistry" geographical distri#ution. %he gap #efore the !am#rian e3plosion is interesting #ecause its a #ig one. 0ut if you think a#out it" there are ma*or groups of animals that ha$e no fossils. Bor e3ample" today we saw in the natural history museum an almost microscopic creature called a tardigrade. %hey dont fossili:e #ecause theyre soft. 6resuma#ly #efore the !am#rian" most of the ancestors of the !am#rian creatures were soft and small. PLAYBOY: (ow do we know they e3isted if there are no fossils? DAWKINS: %hats not 5uite the right 5uestion" is it? %heir descendants e3isted in the !am#rian" so unless you seriously think they were created in the !am#rian" they must ha$e e3isted. .ou may say thats not e$idence" and Im saying you could say the same of any soft creature for which we ha$e no fossils. (ow do we know it wasnt created in 7MDD? It doesnt make sense. PLAYBOY: What a#out this one" another fa$orite of creationists: If modern animals such as monkeys e$ol$ed from frogs" why ha$ent we found any fossils from a transitional creature such as a fronkey? DAWKINS: %he fallacy is thinking of modern animals as descended from other modern animals. If you take that seriously" there should #e not *ust fronkey fossils #ut crocoduck or octocow fossils. Why on earth would you e3pect you could take any pair of animals and look for a com#ination of

them? Were looking at the tips of the twigs of the tree. %he ancestors are #uried deep in the middle" in the crown of the tree. %here are no fronkeys #ecause the common ancestor of a frog and a monkey would #e some kind of fishy" salamandery thing that looks like neither a frog nor a monkey. PLAYBOY: !reationists are fond of arguing that if you remo$e one part and it doesnt work" then theres no way it could ha$e e$ol$ed. DAWKINS: Nuite a good analogy here is an arch" where you ha$e stone" stone" stone" and then it meets in the middle and stands up. 0ut take away any one part and it collapses. .ou might think its difficult to #uild an arch until you ha$e the whole thing in place" #ut youre not considering that they used scaffolding" which has since #een taken down. %hats one answer. Another is to point out that you dont need all the #its of an eye in order to see. .ou can ha$e a $ery imperfect eye that can see only the difference #etween light and dark. %hats still useful if you can see the shadow of a predator. 'o its not true that half an eye is not useful. (alf an eye is half as good as a whole eye" and its #etter than nothing. 7.