2 Interview with Dr.

Raj Shah
30
th
September 2013
Transcript
Akshay Verma: [00:00:18] You can start telling us about surgery in general. How you feel about
it, being a surgeon.

Raj Shah: [00:00:29] Well I think, being a surgeon is probably the best things that can happen to
an individual, and that's what I feel about being a surgeon. Although you'd find it quite
interesting that I never wanted to enter medicine at all. I always wanted to be an electronics
engineer, but it was my dad who coaxed me and that age he told me, I still remember his words,
he said, "At your age you don't know what is good for you. Just do what I tell you to do." And
that's how I got into medicine. And of course, after I went through my medicine, then during my
internship I saw that a surgeon's life is probably much more exciting than a physician's life.
Physicians have a medicine between them and the patient. Whereas a surgeon gets direct contact
with the patients and the relationship is much closer. And feelings both of satisfaction as well as
probably feelings of inadequacy are both more likely to take place in the mind of a surgeon rather
than a physician. But I have always enjoyed being a surgeon and I never regretted that I got into
medicine.

AV: [00:01:57] It is one of the noblest professions that one can have. What do you think about it?

RS: [00:02:08] Well, there is no question about it. I think it is clearly a noble profession although
it has its associated problems in terms of stress. I would that a surgeon's life can be pretty
stressful in terms of trying to meet the patients' demands or expectations. It is not always
possible and things are not always in our hands also, because there is a far deeper intelligence
that controls the mechanisms of a human body, which is so intricate in its manufacturing. So,
everything is not in the surgeon's hand and, at the same time, to be able to meet the expectations
of a person can be quite challenging. But definitely it's a noble profession. I don't think there
would be anyone who would have a different opinion about that.

AV: [00:03:16] Could you share one experience? Maybe you could share what happened
yesterday.

RS: [00:03:31] Just recently we were operating on a five year old child. He had a tumor arising
from his adrenal grand. He had received this chemotherapy and the chemotherapy had resulted
in the shrinkage of the tumor. But the child can get cured only by open surgery. Or, not by open
surgery, but by surgery. And the removal of the complete adrenal grand was his only chance of
cure. So the adrenal gland actually is situated very close to some major structures. It is very close
to the inferior vena cava, which is the largest vessel taking blood back to the heart. It is very close
to the hilum of the kidney where the kidney receives its blood supply. So this adrenal gland, we
approached this by laparoscopy, which is one of the more recent advances in surgical techniques.
And we had already separated about seventy to eighty percent of the tumor, I would say. And all
of a sudden, the whole screen on the television was just a pool of blood. We couldn't just see
anything. So it was obvious that actually the last thing that we had cut was some part of the wall
of the inferior vena cava because of which there was tremendous bleeding from there. This child
losing blood at this rate would probably die in the next 1520 minutes if we don't do something
about it really fast. And this is a laparoscopy procedure, so it is difficult to control so much
bleeding laparoscopically. So we have to take an immediate decision, you know, what next is to
be done. And naturally, there is a sense of panic is there. But you have to, sort of, I'd say suppress
that feeling and allow your reason and intelligence to work at that time. So immediately took a
decision that the child needs to be opened and immediately the team was prepared and in the
next five minutes we were ready to open the abdomen of the child. We opened the abdomen and
immediately packed the area, which is normally how you control any bleeding. Then waited for
10 minutes because by that time the anesthetic gets time to catch up on the blood loss and
replace fluids and all that. And then gradually we remove the pack. As we gradually remove the
pack we can just about get chance to see where the blood is coming from. And then again already
there were places just filled with blood. So with a little patience and the combination of surgical
technique and experience and all that, a little luck also, and little wait, we are able to catch the
bleeder and the place where the bleeding is coming from and then stitch it up and the bleeding
stops. We are able to complete the rest of the procedure, heave a sigh of relief and then close the
abdomen. So this happened just, I would say, practically two weeks ago, maybe two or three
weeks ago. And you can imagine you can imagine how the situation will be when it's actually
happening live. Afterwards, you know, when all is well everybody is all smiles when everything is
over. But at that time when it is happening, of course, there is definite atmosphere of tension in
the whole operating room, when things are actually being done.

AV: [00:07:39] You said that it creates a lot of stress. How do you deal with it and how do you
overcome that anxiety of losing a child?

RS: [00:07:53] See, de-stressing actually is not possible at that very instance. But it depends on
your whole lifestyle. It starts off, I would say, from the start of your day when if you begin your
day say with prayer or meditation and you try to tune in with infinite intelligence or God and ask
Him to guide you in whatever you are going to do during the day then that itself works as a de-
stressing mechanism. Because it helps you to attain a certain degree of calmness, which helps you
to cope up with difficult situations when they do arise. There is a beautiful prayer, which says, "I
will reason, I will will and I will act. But guide thou my reason, will and activity to do the right
thing always." So which means that you are appealing to the infinite intelligence to guide you in
those situations where really it is difficult to take a logical decision. You need some intuitive
guidance at that time. That I think comes through prayer and meditation. You have to train
yourself also. Suppose, to be detached, it is said that a surgeon should not operate on his own
family members. Why do they say that? Because basically when you are too attached to a person
you are not able to think logically. And you are under more stress at that time. So a certain degree
of detachment has to be cultivated. Detachment is not lack of love. Detachment is something, I
would say, quite different from that. You can love a person and yet you can be detached. It sounds
difficult to understand. But it's, I would say, a state of even-mindedness that you try to cultivate
without the ups and downs. And in stress what happens is that basically the whole brains
starts getting fired up. And that time when neurons are all generating impulses in a haphazard
way and it becomes difficult to think clearly. Your blood pressure goes up, your heart rate goes
up and everything is geared up to fight or flight, as they say. But when you are even-minded, then
you are more calm and your system is able to take, I would think, a better decision in a state of
calmness. So that calmness has to be cultivated over a period. It doesn't come overnight. And, I
would say that, even today, I am still far away from attaining that kind of state of calmness where
you are absolutely able to think rationally and clearly under any kind of stressful situation.

AV: [00:11:29] How do you feel when you are performing a surgery on someone and you have to
take a major decision? How do you handle such dilemmas?

RS: [00:11:56] I don't know. I told you, I just said that it's a combination of intuition, experience,
knowledge and logic. I suppose, I didn't mention common sense. But even that comes into the
picture. So it's a combination of all these factors. Really, I don't think that there is one magical
answer to that. But it's all the years that you are putting into the profession, all such experiences
in the past which have produced certain outcomes, desirable or undesirable and that experience
which you have gained from there, your theoretical knowledge based on your study of people
experiences across the globe, your common sense at that point of time, and of course, your
prayer and guidance, asking for guidance at that time, which comes to you as intuition. I think a
combination of all these factors helps you to take a call what you should do at that point of time.

AV: [00:13:10] You were telling me about the two ways that people look at a surgeon...

RS: [00:13:35] See, that's part of life. Duality is a part of life. We face both kinds of patients. As
you mentioned, this family who had a child, he was about four when I operated on him. He had a
very large neuroblastoma, a malignant tumor of nerve tissue. We probably took about 78 hours
for that surgery. I had specially selected a Sunday so that I have totally no other commitments.
And we did that surgery and the child became completely all right. And that family is so grateful
that I still remember that mother, you know, she kept asking me for my photograph. And I said
what do you want to do with it? Finally, one day she told me I want to keep it on my altar. And it
was so embarrassing actually. But that is the extent of gratitude that some people feel. And every
year they will come and will insist on touching my feet and present me with a box of sweets. They
come on the day of surgery because they consider that as his birthday, because they say that was
his new birth, after the surgery.

[00:14:39] On the other hand we have a, I remember a child who had a very large malignant
tumor in the chest and I told the father that it is inoperable; it is not possible to remove such a big
tumor. But he said that the child is going to die anyway. So, should you not try at least? So I said,
well, if you are willing to accept that kind of risk then it's reasonable to try. I said we can give it a
chance at least. The father, he didn't have money. So I know a family who owns a trust and I
talked to the family and told them that they would have to give money for this kind of a surgery.
And I arranged money for that patient, I called another cardiac surgeon to be with me because I
thought that it was a very major surgery and I thought that two heads would be better than one.
And despite all the precautions that we took, intraoperatively we did have some problems, the
child did develop cardiac arrest during surgery and after that had to be put on ventilator and
eventually we lost that child. And the father was so abusive that despite him not even having
spent money, we had arranged his finances also, we put in all this effort, we didn't charge a rupee
and despite that for months together he would all of a sudden, he would call me up in the middle
of night at 2 o' clock tell me how come you are sleeping so peacefully when you killed my child
and we are not able to sleep peacefully, how can you sleep peacefully like this? So that went on
for more than a year.

[00:16:10] So this is part of life. We just have to accept both and as I told you earlier, you just
have to develop even-mindedness. Don't get elated when somebody praises you and don't get
depressed when somebody blames you or criticizes you. Just take both in stride and just keep
doing what you have to do.

AV: [00:16:33] How do you feel when you lose a child, even when you've given it your best?

RS: [00:16:51] Well, first of all, you feel terrible. In fact, I'll tell you that the child that yesterday
we operated upon actually, we lost that child. It was actually very painful. But at the same time,
these are high risk procedures, we explain to the relatives beforehand that there is a chance that
you may lose the child, but we venture out on such undertakings with the full understanding that
left alone this child is anyway going to die. The only hope that the child has is that we operate and
maybe, you know, we are successful, you know, tumor is removed completely the child can have
a normal life. But the sense of guilt often comes in. Particularly in the earlier stages of my career
as a surgeon I remember times when I use today to letters to YSS, asking for monks guidance also
and how to overcome sense of guilt. And ultimately, over the years, what I have learnt is that you
have to overcome the sense of doership. When you feel that you are the doer, then you want to
take credit for the successful surgery and then you have to live with the guilt of having an
unsuccessful operation. But then you realize that, in reality, you are only a doer of a small part.
There are so many other things in one in a person's recovery. I remember this incidentally, you
know, absolutely illiterate villager, his son had a problem, and it was a urinary problem and I had
to explain to him before surgery whether he will be able to recover completely, what are the
likely complications, will the child be able to have urinary control or not. And I was trying to
explain all these things do that illiterate person. And all of a sudden I was taken aback by the
wisdom that came out from that man. He suddenly told me, "doctor you don't need to explain all
these things to me. You just do your duty. It is going to be a combination of your hard work, my
money, my child's destiny and God's grace back together and decide whether this thing is going
to be successful or not." So you said you just do your part you don't have to worry about
explaining to me all these things. So what I'm trying to say is, basically, over the years we realize
that we are not the only factor in deciding the cure or failure. You may think back and feel that
maybe if I had done it this way, it would have been better. But later you also realize if God wanted
me to get that thought in my mind at that time He would have put it. But it's a combination of the
patient's destiny, the family's destiny, our own lessons that we have to learn in life both as a
surgeon and as a human being. All these combination of factors affect your judgment and the
outcome, and ultimately. So I think the one way to overcome sense of guilt is basically to
remember that we are not the doers. It's God alone or does, he runs the universe, he decides who
is to live, who is not to live, who is to have a complication, who is not to have a complication.
Incidentally, you know, you might find this interesting; among surgeons we have what is called
the VIP syndrome. The VIP syndrome is basically a syndrome in which a surgeon who is
operating on a very important person somehow ends up with complications. It is almost
invariable that surgeons who are operating on some VIP will have some complication or the
other. And many times I have pondered over why this happens. I think God is trying to teach
humility. And the best way to teach a surgeon humility is to give him a complication in a VIP. I
think it's the hard way that a surgeon learns to be humble.

AV: [00:21:24] How is operating on children different from operating on adults?

RS: [00:21:37] That's a good question. I always say that children are not miniatures adults. This is
a favorite statement of mine because children think differently, they perceive the world
differently, they perceive the surgeon differently and issues of finance and so many other aspects
don't bother them. So child goes entirely by trust. And I realized over the years that a child's
outcome after surgery depends to a great extent on the child's trust in the treating doctor. So we
have to spend a lot of time with the child just to gain its trust, to make it realize that we are there
not to hurt the child, but we are there only to help. And I think that's a very very important step
before operating on any child. Then you operate on an adult, adults generally go by more logic
and they will just maybe take two or three opinions and then see how you talk and how you
convince, and maybe ask you more logical questions like how many such operations have you
done in the past and what have been your results. Maybe adults judge you like that. But children
go by feeling. Of course, surgical technique wise things are quite different when you are
operating on a child. Your margin of error is very small. You hardly have margin of error. You
have to be very precise, you have to be very delicate in handling the tissues, very gentle. Many
times in the operating room when we are operating on some delicate structure, I don't permit
anybody in the operating room to have their mobiles on. I don't like any kind of movement in the
theater. My boss used to jokingly say, "Don't breathe. Don't breathe." Because even the sound of
breathing disturbs. So it's that kind of concentration we like to have when we are operating on
small babies, particularly the neonates, that time it's quite different. And recovery in children is
far better than in an adult. A child has a point problem where he's not suffering from diabetes
and high blood pressure and neumoconiosis and problems of pollutions and other stress factors,
hypertension. All these things are not there in a child. He has a point problem, you correct it and
he becomes all right. So recovery is very fast and surgery in children, I would say, is far more
gratifying than in an adult. It's very gratifying to see a child come back and, you know, come back
well after a successful surgery.

AV: [00:24:36] You said about gaining a child's trust. What makes it have faith in you?

RS: [00:24:56] I think you have to give time to the child to let him get to know you. When I see a
new child and the child probably needs surgery, I insist on having at least 34 meetings before I
actually operate on that child. I don't take surgery as a mechanical solution to a specific problem.
But I would rather look at it in a more holistic way. And I like to get friendly with the child, gain
the child's confidence. Many times we have children who won't even enter into our cabin, they
won't like to come inside from the waiting room, they just go on crying. And they just keep
pulling on the mother saying, "I want to go outside." And from that point to convert the child to
the stage that he has a trust in you, it often takes time. I think you might find it interesting that I
often use my camera for this. When a kid is crying I just take a photograph of the kid and then I
show him "look this is how you look when you cry." So for a moment at least he stops crying. He
thinks this is not a nice picture. So then he just cools off a little bit you know. Then I take another
picture and show him "look you are looking slightly better." Then slowly get him to smile and
then show him the picture and then say, "now look, this is how you should be looking." And of
course, in our clinic ambience we try to keep pictures of happy children, happy birds, happy
animals, just to create a happy atmosphere. And give the child freedom in your clinic, let him do
what he wants, let him play with whatever he wants so he feels that you are not a disciplinarian,
you are a friend. And gradually you gain his confidence and then make him understand that he is
the one who has got a problem. It's not we who want to do something, but it is he who has got a
problem and that's why he has come to us. And now, we try to make him understand that don't
you want that problem resolved? He says yes. Once he says yes, then I often use this kind of a
story. I say you will need some kind of magic done on you. Children, they are fascinated by the
word magic. Children, they say what is this magic? So I say look, you know, we can do some magic
on you and we can solve this problem of yours. And there are some problems with the magic. The
magic doesn't work if you are awake. So we have to put you to sleep before we do that magic. So
that's how I slowly make them understand about anesthesia. I say that you will need to be put to
sleep because only then the magic takes place. And after all who is the greatest magician. I say it
is God. So I ask him who is your favorite God? Many times it's... sometimes it is Krishna,
sometimes it is some Mataji, something they have in their own mind, Hanumanji. So I say ok,
what we're going to do is, we are going to put you to sleep and then I am going to call Him. And
once He comes then together both of us are going to do some magic on you. And then your
problem is going to be completely solved. And when you wake up everything will be all right. And
this sort of storytelling actually works wonders on the child's mind. So when we actually take
them to the operating theater if we have told them this whole story before then they are just
anticipating the next step. They think that now is the time, now they are going to put me to sleep,
God is going to be coming and is going to take care of my problem and all that. So I try to use
these to gain a child's confidence.

AV: [00:29:005] Surgery is considered to be one of the important professions. Why is it
important to do the right thing even when you are doing something of less important, some
mundane job.

RS: [00:29:315] You have asked a very beautiful question. Actually this question, I myself found
the answer to this question just two days ago. Very interesting story I will tell you. My son has
just got into a medical college in Pune. I wanted to transport his writing table and his cot and
mattress and cupboard and all this. So I was looking for some movers and somehow somebody
told that you just go to this Agarwal movers. They are very professional. Their name is in the
Limca book of records. So I went to Agarwal movers and what I saw there was unbelievable.
What I really saw was the way in which they do their work. The way they do their work is
unbelievable. The culture that percolates down from the owner of that company, down to the
lowest level staff is something that has to be seen to be believed. They gave me a small booklet
about their own principles and about how they work and their system and all that. And I was
looking in that booklet and I found that their business runs on trucks, because trucks transport
all their material from one place to another. And how this man has spiritualized his own
business, he has realized that who runs the trucks? The drivers. So said the driver is the most
important person in his business. What he has done is he has opened a driver's seva kendra on
the highway where any truck drivers can stop their truck, go there and there are photographs of,
you know, they have volunteers there who wash the feet of those truck drivers in warm water.
They actually wash the feet of these drivers, they give them a massage, they have places where
these drivers can sleep. They get rest. They get refreshments and they are taken care of. It's a
driver's seva kendra. It is unbelievable. I thought a profession as mundane as just being the
owner of a transport company who is just carrying cargo or freight from one place to another
how they can spiritualize their business. So I think any profession can really be converted into a
spiritual profession if one has the attitude. But at the same time, I do admit that yeah being a
doctor, it's much easier to do that. But these people, they really touched my heart when I saw the
way they are running their business.

AV: [00:32:325] Why is it important to do what I am doing or anyone else is doing?

RS: [00:32:545] See, first of all, in any drama you have to have various characters. You can't just
have a character, you know, only one character in a drama. Then there is no drama. So in this
cosmic drama every role is important. But of course, that role has to be played in a way that does
not upset the other person's roles. You have to play it harmoniously and selflessly... and for
universal good, I would say. So if you are making a film there are so many things that a film can
be made on. There are themes, endless themes. But a theme which is uplifting to a person's mind,
which is elevating to his intelligence, which helps in building character and building strength, in
spreading positive emotions, positive vibrations is a wonderful task. I, as a surgeon, I may
operate on one or two patients in a day, whereas a person making a film, he can reach millions of
people through his film, and he can do more good than probably a surgeon can do, provided he
takes it with the right perspective. I think any job, if you take in your hospital itself, ok, we as
surgeons, we are operating and someone may think that ours is the biggest job that we are doing.
But it's not necessarily so. The class four employee who is actually sterilizing the instruments is
more important probably. If he is not going to his job properly, if the instruments are not
autoclaved properly, I may have operated still the child may get infections or get other
complications. If the nurse who is handling over the instruments over to me is not quick, she is
not anticipating my next move. Every person's role is important. And if you are talking of film
making, I think it is probably more important than a surgeon's role.

AV: [00:35:086] Is there a surgery that you remember most vividly? Which is the most
memorable surgery that you have performed?

RS: [00:35:296] There are two incidents which I would like to tell. The first is not my most
memorable experience in a positive way. It's a very way. I was doing my post-graduation and it
was the first child I operated upon and the child had a perforation of his intestine due to typhoid
fever. Of course, this is almost thirty years ago. At that time medical treatment was also not
sufficiently advanced and post-operative care, it was a government hospital, the facilities
available were very limited. But I had operated on the child and closed the perforation and next
day in the morning when I came to know, you know, I came to the ward. They told me that the
child had passed away last night. I actually burst into tears there itself. And I just walked away
from the ward. I just went back home. I said I can't work today. It's not possible for me to work
today. It was so painful for me that could not just accept it for days together. This was my first
surgery which I had done and that child passed away. A far more positive experience was one in
which I performed one of the most complicated liver surgeries, about two years ago, where there
was a tumor which was just about, maybe, four centimeters in diameter I would say, which was
located in the most treacherous spot that you can think of in the body. It was, you know, we have
the structures, the inferior vena cava, the portal vein, the hepatic artery. And this tumor was
sitting right between all these structures and we had to actually dissect the tumor, I would say,
nanometer by nanometer, and separate all these major structures around it. I was able to get that
tumor out safely. Probably, I would rate it as one of the most thrilling operations of my life. But a
few months later that same child again taught me humility, because few months later he came
back with a tumor in the liver in another area. So he just showed me that, you know, who has the
last laugh. It is not we who cure patients. You may solve a problem but that doesn't mean that
you cure patients. If unless the patient's destiny and God's will are agreeable over that, other
outcomes are not really in our hands. I don't know if that... That child I think taught me a lot.
Because when we performed the surgery we thought that probably no one else could have
removed such a tumor. And sooner, few months later, we realized that we hadn't really done
much. So the ups and downs of life.

AV: [00:38:5766] What do you seek to achieve?

RS: [00:38:5966] What you seek to achieve, can I ask you that?

AV: [00:39:076] I just seek to do the best thing that I can, to do the right thing in the best possible
way.

RS: [00:39:186] What do you think everybody seeks to achieve?

AV: [00:39:206] Happiness.

RS: [00:39:226] Yeah, ultimately, I think the answer is only happiness. What do you seek, what do
I seek or what does anybody else seek. We all seek happiness. The only thing is you have to seek
not a temporary happiness but a happiness that is undiluted, a lasting happiness, which is not
affected by the ups and downs of life. And attaining that state of happiness is, I think, what
everybody wants. The only thing is how to get is because that, you know, the world of relativity
outside cannot provide anything that is lasting, because everything is changing in time and space.
So what is outside is not going to be able to give you what you want to achieve. So ultimately you
have to seek that within yourself. And it starts by reducing the amplitude of your ups and downs.
I don't know if you will understand what I am trying to say. When you go though an up and when
you go through a down, we have this huge amplitude, the oscillations are too big. You start
reducing them down till you attain a state of calmness and ultimately that calmness, I think,
forms the basis for that unshakable happiness. I think I thought over that question and I saw it
and I said that well, that's the question which I think every human being wants to ask. This is
what I think is the answer.

AV: [00:41:037] Since you deal with people who are dangling on a tightrope, one side is death
and one side is life, how does that make you feel? You, unlike other people, are constantly seeing
these two sides at one time.

RS: [00:41:347] Let me tell you something. All of us, all the time, are living in the same state.
People who went to Badri-Kedar didn't know that they'll never come back. People who are going
on the road don't know when they are going to have an accident. People who are going with all
this kind of stress in life, don't know when they are going to get a heart attack. My mother she's
80. Twice a day she used to walk to the temple. She go down two flights of stairs twice a day, do
all her activities. And then she was sitting in the evening at 6 o' clock. She was sitting in the
kitchen and all of a sudden she developed a paralysis. In just in a matter of seconds. Today it's
two months, she has lost her speech, she has lost complete movement of her right hand, complete
movement of her right leg. She is totally bed-ridden, she cannot even feed herself, everything is
being done. If you really think about it, all of us, all the time, are living like that only. It's only how
much you focus on it. Don't you think so. My brother-in-law, his son was 21. He was studying in
Duke, Duke University, and he was entering in medicine. He was actually first year in medicine.
Playing basketball outside in the courtyard at around 7pm, then he just said that, "I'm feeling a
little tired." He said, "I want to sit down." He sat down, just collapsed and passed away. So all I'm
trying to tell you is that, basically, all of us are dealing with life and death all the time. But, we
don't focus on it so much. And that's what keeps you going actually. If you keep focusing on the
negative all the time, then you can't live. So the same way with us surgeons. When we are
operating all the time, we may explain to the patient that look there is a certain element of risk
involved. But once we have finished the explanation, then we tell them now you should be totally
positive. Now you drop all the negative thoughts out of your mind and we also drop them out of
our mind, and we just go about everything with as positive attitude as possible.

AV: [00:45:187] How are you different from your usual self when you are performing a surgery?

RS: [00:45:437] I think I can answer that in one word probably. Focused. I think when I am
operating I think I'm pretty much focused. Especially, of course, when you are operating there are
moments when you just... there are lighter moments and things are easy and there is nothing
really for you to be tensed about. But in general, we are very focused. We don't like any, any kind
of disturbance during a surgery whether it is noise or movement. I suppose focused sums it up. I
can't think of any other way that I'm different.

AV: [00:46:337] What do you do during your free time?

RS: [00:46:427] What's my recreation? You know what's my past time. I told you that to deal with
stress, the stress of life itself, the stress of being a surgeon, the stress of operating on such critical
situations, small children, the one thing that we need is de-stressing. And I think it can be done by
its only logical opposite, and that is meditating. Because meditation is the opposite of stress.
Meditation is de-stressing yourself physically, mentally, in every possible way. You tend to relax
completely and let go. So I personally like to meditate whenever I am free. And if I am not in the
mood to meditate, you can say there are times when you are really not in a mood to meditate,
then I like to read about spiritual things because they give me the proper perspective to at least
deal with the stress of life. So it reinforces your thoughts. We are all good forgetter. Once you are
told you are not the doer, but you are not going to remember that for even 5 minutes. Just the
next thing you do, I tied my shoelace or I combed my hair and we say we are not the doer and
that we are doing all these things. So you have to keep reminding yourself again and again
through reading, through introspecting and through meditating. So I suppose it may sound a little
unconventional but that's what I do for my relaxation.