LISTENING

Ethics and Therapy

Steven Gans and Leon Redler
in conversation with
Bob Mullan
Copyright !""# by Steven Gans and Leon Redler$

Library o% Congress Nu&ber'
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Contents
2c/nowledge&ents
Introduction
Chapter 6ne
Chapter Two
Chapter Three
Chapter 8our
Chapter 8ive
Chapter Si9
Chapter Seven
Chapter Eight
Chapter Nine
Chapter Ten
Chapter Eleven
Chapter Twelve
2%terword


2C:N6;LE<GEMENTS

;e would li/e to thank all the others3 each and every Other who3 when we=ve been open
to the&3 have been our teachers.
In particular3 we=d li/e to than/ our teachers down through the ages3 to this very &o&ent3
who have taught the love o% wisdo& and the wisdo& o% love3 especially E&&anuel Levinas and
>ac?ues <errida$ ;e particularly want to ac/nowledge our pri&ary teachers in the art o% @Aust
listening=3 the late Ronnie Laing and Bugh Craw%ord$

;e also want to than/ our patients in therapy and students in se&inars and supervisionC
residents o% the Dhiladelphia 2ssociation=s co&&unal places o% asylu& with who& we lived
andEor to who& we attendedC and our colleagues and %or&er colleagues in the Dhiladelphia
2ssociation3 who taught us &any valuable lessonsFC

Bob Mullan %or as/ing us to do the boo/3 encouraging us to get on with it and /eeping us
%ro& wandering too %ar a%ieldFC

2ndrew 8eld&ar3 6ra Salo&an and El/e Gierss %or reading and help%ul co&&ents on
transcripts shownFC

>ac/ie ;ebber and EliGabeth Manchester %or their patient and cheer%ul help with
transcribing tapes and re+typing chapters o% edited transcripts3 and EliGebeth %or proo%+reading as
wellC

Sophie Delha& %or our cover design and <avid <e&psy %or photograph o% LeonFC

our %riends and %ellow 2ssociates at the <iora&a Centre %or 2rt3 Therapy and
Technology3 in London3 %or welco&ing us to wor/ there and enabling us to welco&e others to
&eet with us thereFC

one another %or our patience with each other=s idiosyncrasies and diverse @nu&bers= in
seeing this3 &ainly enAoyable3 proAect throughFC

and last but %ar %ro& least3 our wives and %a&ilies %or their unwavering supportH

Steven Gans and Leon Redler
INTR6<4CTI6N

The %or&at o% this boo/ is very si&ple$ It is an edited record o% conversations I enAoyed
with Steve Gans and Leon Redler3 two psychotherapists &ost well+/nown %or their wor/ with R$
<$ Laing in the si9ties3 seventies and eighties3 and their continuing allegiance to &any o% the
ideas and practices he developed$ But they are not &ere Laingians$

Steven Gans was born in Broo/lyn in #.)#3 and attended Dennsylvania State 4niversity3
where he obtained a Dh$ < in philosophy$ Be arrived in England in #.()3 and since that ti&e has
been involved in psychotherapy$ Leon Redler is also Broo/lyn born3 entering the world in #.,0$
2t the 2lbert Einstein College o% Medicine New Ior/ he ?uali%ied as a physician$ In #.013 a%ter
two years as a psychiatric resident at a New Ior/ teaching hospital3 he ca&e to the 4:3 %irstly to
wor/ with Ma9well >ones at <ingleton Bospital in Scotland3 later with R$ <$ Laing at :ingsley
Ball and other Dhiladelphia 2ssociation households3 several o% which he %ounded$ Steve Gans
lived with his %a&ily at another such household3 which had been %ounded by <r Bugh Craw%ord3
a colleague o% Laing=s$ These households were intended as places o% re%uge3 co&&unity and
dwelling$ 4ntil earlier this year Leon Redler was the Chair&an o% the Dhiladelphia 2ssociation
succeeding3 a%ter &any years3 its %ounder and inspiration3 R$ <$ Laing$ Be continues3 at present3
to be Chair&an o% the D2=s psychotherapy training co&&ittee$

They are %riends3 as is evident in the tone o% their conversationsFrespect%ul3 war& and
hu&orous$ They share &any si&ilar attributes3 histories and preoccupations' both are native New
Ior/ers who have spent over !1 years in LondonC both are agnostic >ewishC both have endured
their own &ental &isery3 but have e&braced and then con?uered itC both are passionate de%enders
o% the libertarian sensibilityF=live and let live=C and both o% the& have devoted their pro%essional
lives to the service o% others$ But o% course they are hu&an too3 and share with us &any o% their
own particular i&per%ections$

My ti&e with the& has always been revealing3 i% at ti&es unsettling$ Both o% the& %ind it
easier to spea/ unco&%ortable truths than cosy lies$ 2 notable %eature is their pro%essional
deter&ination to clari%y the spo/en wordFthe intention o% a word3 the &eaning o% a sentence3
the change in e&phasis over ti&e$ 2s these conversations will de&onstrate3 they are ?uite able
and prepared to tal/ about the&selves as well as others$ Indeed this is3 I believe3 one o% the &any
strengths o% this boo/$

2lthough the spirit o% R$ <$ Laing is evident throughout the conversations3 there are other
in%luences present3 such as 8reud and Martin Buber$ Bowever Gans and Redler draw &uch o%
their current philosophical and psychotherapeutic energies %ro& the wor/ o% E&&anuel Levinas$

E&&anuel Levinas= wor/ derives %ro& the encounter between two cultures' >udais& and
&odern philosophyFBebrew and Gree/$ Born in Lithuania in #."03 he was educated in
Ger&any as well as 8rance3 where he eventually beca&e naturalised$ Be studied with the
pheno&enologists Ed&und Busserl and Martin Beidegger3 and also engaged in Tal&udic studies$
4nli/e his %a&ily in Lithuania he survived the Bolocaust3 spending %ive years as a 8rench D6;
in a Ger&an intern&ent ca&p$ The Bolocaust and his encounter with totalitarianis& %orever
&ar/ed Levinas= wor/$
The central the&e in Levinas= li%e wor/ was his abiding concern with the well+being o%
the other person' in particular3 the su%%ering and powerless otherFthe widow3 the orphan3 the
stranger$ LautrieFthe 6therFre%ers to the alterity o% this other who calls us to responsibility$
2lterity can not be /nown or possessed3 can not be &ade &ine3 including through /nowledge$
The 6ther is not Aust di%%erent but singular$ In his wor/3 he sought not only to describe our
responsibility %or3 and our duty to respect the di%%erence o%3 the other person3 but also to place our
relationship with the other person at the very centre o% li%e$ Li/e Martin Buber3 Levinas
e9pounded a philosophy o% intersubAectivity and dialogue$ But whereas Buber described the
relation between persons in ter&s o% &utuality3 co&&union and reciprocity3 Levinas described
the relation between onesel% and the su%%ering 6ther in ter&s o% co&&and3 duty and
responsibility$ In Levinas= view3 the cry o% the 6ther cannot go unheeded$ This response o%
responsibility to the cry o% the 6therFwhat Levinas ter&s the ethical relationF&a/es
i&perative the pursuit o% Austice in the world at large$ ;hen the @other= is capitalised in these
transcripts3 it is to suggest that each and every other (Other) is singular and in%inite$ 8or Levinas3
deniGen o% both Gree/ and Bebrew worlds3 institutions3 society3 the wor/ o% Austice3 and
philosophy itsel% all have their genesis in the ethical response o% one person to another$

Gans and Redler continue to wor/ daily with the &entally distressed and the socially
con%used3 or those3 li/e &any o% us3 who are perple9ed andEor caught in patterns that li&it or
di&inish happiness and well+being$ In this arduous labour they indeed %ind inspiration %ro&
Laing3 Levinas and others3 but also %ro& the e9perience culled %ro& their &any years o% practice$
Li/e Laing be%ore the&3 Gans and Redler also value the heart wisdo&s o% diverse spiritual
traditions$

These conversations too/ place in #..- and early #... in Leon=s therapy roo&s at the
<iora&a 2rts Centre in central London and at his ho&e in north London$ I have lightly edited
the& and3 with a %ew e9ceptions3 have le%t the& in their chronological order$ 2s the wee/s
progressed we ca&e to /now and trust each other and3 as a result3 the conversations beca&e even
&ore honest and open$

Bob Mullan

London #...
CHAPTER ONE

WHY PSYCHOTHERAPY

In this %irst series o% conversations the discussion centres on the occupational choice o%
psychotherapy3 including the relevance o% >ewish roots and one=s own personal su%%ering$

!ob: Can I as/ you Leon3 then Steve3 how you got into this business o% psychotherapyJ

"eon: ;hen I was seventeen I pic/ed up a boo/ by 8reudFThe Question of Lay
AnalysisFand so&ething in it spo/e to &e$ In &edical school I was interested in psychiatry3 and
I was also interested in the %act that a couple o% &y %lat&ates were in psychotherapy and see&ed
to &e less screwed up than I was$ There was3 %or &e3 so&e stig&a attached to going %or
psychotherapy$ But I was in crisis3 in a right &ess3 so I overca&e &y e&barrass&ent and %ear3
and began &eeting with a psychotherapist$ That was &y %irst e9perience o% being in therapy$ I
thought at that ti&e3 hal%+way through &edical school3 that I=d either be a paediatrician or a
psychiatrist3 and started out ta/ing &y elective wor/ and &y %irst house&anship in paediatrics3
but then decided to ta/e a residency in psychiatry$ In those days there was ?uite a bit o%
introductory psychotherapy training in &y &edical school and a lot in the residency training3
attached as it was to an eclectic psychoanalytic institute$ ;ithin a year o% %inishing the ti&e
re?uired %or getting &y 2&erican ?uali%ications
I le%t the residency progra&&e$ I had as/ed to ta/e &y %inal year3 or at least part o% it3
abroad with Ma9well >ones in Scotland3 and with Laing in London$ ;hen I was re%used3 with no
conversation or e9planation %orthco&ing3 I Aust le%t3 intending to %inish &y last year elsewhere on
what I thought3 then3 would be &y return to the States a%ter a year$ 2%ter spending %ive &onths
with Ma9 and his therapeutic co&&unity in Scotland3 &y education as a psychotherapist
continued as part o% &y in%or&ally apprenticing &ysel% to Ronnie in London$

!ob: >ust to interruptFwhen you %irst answered the ?uestion your response was because
you thought there was so&ething wrong with you$ Can you elaborateJ

"eon: I was unhappy but I=& not sure I /new there were any other possibilities other than
how I was$ ;hen I was a child &y world was ?uite constricted3 and I thin/ I assu&ed that either
everybody was &uch li/e &e3 or they were &a/ing the best o% it in a way I wasn=t3 or that they
were pretending$ I was very cuto%%3 didn=t really understand very &uch about what was going on
with other people3 or with &ysel%3 or between us3 and didn=t actually have a sense o% engage&ent
in very &uch beyond preserving that tenuous and unsatis%actory e9istence$ This began to change
gradually in &edical school but began to brea/ down only a%ter I got to :ingsley BallFa
brea/down o% so&e way o% being3 o% a way o% being with others3 and a way o% not being &ysel%3
that si&ply wasn=t wor/ing any &ore$ It was terri%yingH My e9peri&enting with drugs li/e LS<
was pushing it as well$ I o%ten had @bad trips=3 trying to open &ysel% to getting in touch with
so&ething o% this constricted way o% being and the possibility o% so&e %reer way$

!ob: Can we tal/ about the idea o% the wounded healerJ I &ean3 how da&aged can one
be and still be able to help other peopleJ

"eon: That ?uestion can=t really be answered$ There are too &any considerations and
variables$ The /ey ones have to do with the depth3 e9tent and /inds o% wounds and @da&age=C
what=s been learned and how %ar one has &oved through and e&erged %ro& all thatC and what
ti&e the wounded one now has %or another and what ability is in play to give the 6ther space to
be3 to be heard3 and to enable and &ove the 6ther in a salutary way$

Ronnie used to say that he thought people who had been through and e&erged %ro&
varieties o% pain%ul states o% &ind and ways o% being Aust &ight actually &a/e very good
therapists$ Be was o% the opinion that having been wounded not only &ight not be an obstacle to
being a healer3 but &ight be a help$ 6n one occasion3 during one o% the ti&es that I was ?uite
troubled3 I was showing hi& letters that I had written that had co&e bac/ into &y possession3
letters to &y parents3 probably %ro& university$ I was telling hi& that I could see in these letters
that I had no sense o% @&e=3 and that &y parents didn=t see& to relate to a separate @&e=$ I see&ed
to be part o% a %a&ily @we= and I %elt asha&ed and appalled by that3 and not at all sure that I could
e&erge %ro& it$ ;hat was happening was that I was getting &ore aware o% not being a separate
&e3 and ac/nowledging rather than denying it$ There was now an opportunity to e&erge as
separate$ Now there=s a sense in which we=re all inter+dependent and thus none o% us are
separate3 sel%+e9isting3 autono&ous entities$ ;e=ll spea/ &ore o% that later$ But here I=& re%erring
to a non+di%%erentiation andEor suppression o% a responsible agent o% one=s @own= actions$ Ronnie
was consoling and encouraging$ Be told &e to save the letters as one day they &ight serve as
evidence o% where I=d &oved %ro&3 and as such3 a /ind o% ?uali%ication to address these and
related &atters$

!ob: Steve3 do you want to begin to tell &e how you got into this ga&eJ

Ste#e: There are so&e &ilestones that &ay have so&ething to do with how it happened3
but &ostly I=& not sure really how it happenedC it=s a &ystery to which I don=t have an answer$

!ob: ;ell3 you &ust e9cuse &e i% we continue this way3 in this vein$ Bowever you
describe yoursel%3 people pay you3 you do not pay the&3 they pay you %or so&ething$ So in so&e
sense or another you are &a/ing a clai& about yoursel%$ Iou cannot escape thatFonce you &ade
a decision that you were going to get so&e /ind o% training$ I thin/ I=& not prepared to let you
slide out o% it as easily as you=re doing at the &o&ent$

Ste#e: I do appreciate that$ There is a level at which I could give so&e highlights$

!ob: 6:$

Ste#e: 6ne highlight was that I %ound &ysel% so&ehow ?uite early on engaged in what I
later ca&e to understand was so&ething that could be called thin/ing3 and it see&ed to co&e to
&e3 that that see&ed to be what I %ound &ysel% being interested in$ KuestioningFI ?uestioned
the Rabbi when I had Bebrew lessons3 ?uestioned the teachers when I had whatever lessons I
had3 so I was sort o% you &ight say a born sceptic, and then I %ound out that they called it
philosophy3 and then I %ound out that you could get paid %or so&ething that people called that3 to
?uestion and thin/3 so I was a happy ca&per$ I got paid to do that3 over ti&e3 teaching philosophy
at university level3 and one o% the ?uestions that preoccupied &e was the ?uestion o% what people
&ean to one another3 how they co&e to spea/ and understand each other3 and why so&eti&es
people weren=t spea/ing and understanding one another$ It appeared to &e that they were
spea/ing as it were %ro& within sel%+enclosed bubbles3 at or to others without spea/ing with
the&$ This is so&ething that I %ound going on in the classroo&$ That I could Aust as well be a
tape recorder3 and students could Aust put their tape recorders on3 and tape recorders could record
the tape recorder3 and that was called schooling$ 2nd I said there &ust be so&ething &ore than
that that could go on3 and in %act I was a student o% a discipline called pheno&enology3 which
was trying to understand e9perience$ But pheno&enology let &e down3 because pheno&enology
was about &y own so+called @e9perience=3 it never really got to the point o% trying to spea/ about
what happens between &ysel% and another person$ There was no language or discourse %or
understanding this$ So I turned to 8reud3 and went to Ronnie LLaingM3 because he was at least
philosophically educated in a way that &ost analysts weren=t3 to see whether 8reud &ight have
so&ething to contribute to the ?uestion that I was on about in this area o% &y concern$

!ob: 2nd his responseJ

Ste#e: Co&e and be a %ly on the wall3 which I proceeded to do3 and decided that I really
had to be on both sides o% the couch to even begin to get an entree into what 8reud was tal/ing
about$ It beca&e very clear to &e that what 8reud was on about was a very di%%erent /ind o%
discourse than any that I had ever co&e across$ Be was %irst o% all writing %ro& his e9perience3
rather than as a tal/ing head tal/ing about boo/s he read3 and tal/ing about tal/$ Be was tal/ing
about an e9perience that he was having with other people3 and that was what I was interested in
having illu&inated and elucidated$

!ob: Iou=re both >ewish3 and indeed a high proportion o% psychotherapy is >ewishFcan
you co&&ent on thatJ

Ste#e: 2 crucial ?uestion3 very di%%icult and co&ple93 and a &uch suppressed or
repressed ?uestion$ There was a way that 8reud wanted to /eep his >ewishness in the
bac/ground3 or even sub&erged$ Be wished to co&e across as a &odern intellectual who had
universal things to say$ I% his &ove&ent was to gain legiti&acy3 it had to be &ore than the >ewish
science it was said to be$ Staging hi&sel% as a scientist3 as legiti&ate3 8reud hid to a great e9tent
his >ewishness$ It=s only now that we=re recovering the depths really to which his >ewishness
played a central role in the creation o% psychoanalysis3 %or e9a&ple3 the >ewish co&&and&ent to
ac/nowledge and re&e&ber the past and the co&&it&ent to be open to a Messianic %uture3 when
&an/ind will attain to a certain /ind o% Austice$ That=s the &eaning o% the pro&ised land3 Israel$
This is &eant to be a spiritual place, where people will actually have Austice between the&$ t is
a place to co!e. This I thin/ is trans+generational$ It is >ewish speci%ic trans+generational
wisdo& which le%t its &ar/ on 8reud=s psycheC as long as you don=t call it >udais&3 that is
orthodo9 co&&it&ent to a particular e9clusivity3 a particular &entality or vow o% speci%ic
allegiance to speci%ic scriptures$ But >ewishness3 yes3 so I thin/ yes3 &y own >ewishness &ust
have been a %actor %or &e in gravitating toward psychoanalysis3 but the %actorFto use a di%%icult
wordFwas unconscious in &y case$

"eon: I thin/ so&e o% the things Steve=s alluding to are %actors3 but I can=t say that I had
any awareness o% the& being %actors in &y beco&ing a psychotherapist$ 2s a child3 &y &ind was
blown in so&e way by what I learned o% the e9ter&ination o% si9 &illion >ews3 %or being >ews$ I
viewed and %elt that in the conte9t o% a history o% persecution o% >ews throughout the ages3
especially in the @Christian= west$ Maybe beco&ing a psychiatrist and psychotherapist had so&e
relation to that3 though not consciously so$ It certainly laid the %oundations o% &y later concern
with Austice3 and the lac/ o% it$ I guess the seeds o% the Bolocaust were already in place in the
anti+Se&itic Nienna and Europe o% 8reud=s day3 sprouting wildly a%ter Nersailles$ But I thin/ &y
beco&ing a therapist had &ore to do with see/ing healing %or &ysel% and &y relationships$

I did %ind inspiration3 or the seeds o% later inspiration3 in the 6ld
Testa&ent prophets3 so&e o% whose words I studied3 as a boy3 in Bebrew$ They were on
about Austice3 @calling= their own people on how they were treating one another and how they
were losing the plot3 losin" their #ay, not having &ade the way o% the Torah3 as law and way3
their way$ ;hen3 a%ter &eeting Ronnie3 I returned to those te9ts3 I realised how &uch they had
touched &e$ I o%ten thin/ o% God3 spea/ing through Isaiah3 telling the people Oand here I loosely
paraphraseP' your rituals are an abo&ination to &eH ;hen you co&e be%ore &e3 I can=t stand the
sight o% youH But there=s the possibility o% turnin" around, o% ceasing to do evil and learning to
do good3 starting with doing Austice to and %or the vulnerable3 the widow and the orphan$ I don=t
re&e&ber whether he also re%ers to the stranger there3 but that=s obviously a /ey point3 today at
least as &uch as in those days$ So&ething o% that did get through to &e$ I didn=t especially
believe in God3 or not$ I fud"ed that issue3 li/e I %udged &ost issues$ So although I was pretty
s&ashed as a /id3 I did %ind inspiration in the >ewish tradition$ 2s to its connection with
psychotherapy3 i% we strip away its speci%ic deter&inate religious content3 there is that %aith in the
%uture3 a @yes=+saying to the 6ther3 a concern with Austice$ 2nd increasingly3 especially through
&eeting Ronnie3 I saw and %elt &y own path as having pro%ound &eaning in spiritual ter&s3 both
in co!in" to life !yself, and in helpin" to enliven others, through addressing their su%%ering and
constriction$ 2nd the %irst spiritual tradition I was introduced to was >udais&$

Ste#e: I &ight Aust a&pli%y one point in regard to 8reud=s >ewish approach$ The &eaning
o% the word arche, which &eans in Gree/ the beginning o% things3 how things begin3 and what
their grounds are and their principle3 is both traditionally understood as an ori"in or a %ounding
concept3 but it also &eans co!!and!ent, it &eans both$ Now the co&&and&ent is a >ewish
ele&ent$ It is concerned with what you do as a hu&an being3 with the way that hu&ans relate to
one another$ This involves our li%e together3 and the stories we tell$ This is the %ocus o% the
Biblical tradition as opposed to a %ocus on theory3 generality and conceptuality3 which is
pri&arily Gree/$ 2nd I thin/ %ollowing 8reud3 that I have been &oving &uch &ore to the >udaic
side o% thingsC having co&e %ro& a &ore classical3 traditional philosophical side$ I thin/ that the
>udaic side has been underesti&ated in ter&s o% its i&portance in raisin" $uestions of "oodness
and ethics. This is what I call the lost art o% practice in philosophy$ Dhilosophers once were
healers and practitioners and that has been lost3 and I thin/ stories which spea/ o% a lac/ o% ethics
and goodness point to the everyday sy&pto&s we hear about in psychotherapeutic practice$
Moreover3 once the lac/ o% ethical elatedness is realised3 a return to good healthy living is
possible$

!ob: ;hat about the argu&ent that there=s another connection between >ewishness and
psychotherapy3 na&ely the %act o% su%%eringJ

"eon: Because o% the su%%ering o% the >ewsJ I=ve already said I was brought up hearing
lots o% stories about that /ind o% su%%ering$ ;hen I beca&e aware o% the Bolocaust I &ust have
been terri%ied3 appalled3 deeply shoc/ed$ Ieah3 that got to &e in ways I=& still discovering$ ;hen
I was training in psychiatry3 three civil rights wor/ers were /illedFlynchedFin Mississippi3 and
again I was appalled and terri%ied$ I went down to Mississippi and wor/ed with the Civil Rights
Move&ent %or a bit3 %eeling I Aust had to be part o% thatFwhat was happeningFto try and
witness and understand that hatred3 violence and inAustice3 and to support and bear witness to the
resistance to it$ That was resonating with the Bolocaust$ But I thin/ it was &ore o% an awareness3
and a dawning a#areness of resistance to beco!in" a#are, o% &y personal su%%ering3 that had
&ore to do with drawing &e to psychotherapy$ 2nd it was only later that I ca&e to relate &y
su%%ering to the su%%ering o% others3 to @>ews= o% any creed3 ethnicity3 colour3 se9uality3 bodily
conditions or disabilities3 states o% &ind or any di%%erence %ro& prevailing others that contributes
to the& being done in$

Ste#e: I approach it &ysel% %ro& the other side o% su%%ering3 which is violence$ I %eel an
aversion to violence$ Bow that co&es about I=& not sure3 although perhaps also the Bolocaust
&ight have had an i&pact on &y psyche and studies$ 8or e9a&ple3 I ca&e to realise that
Beidegger=s involve&ent in NaGis& &ade hi& deeply suspect3 although I continued to appreciate
hi& as a great thin/er$ I wondered how so&eone who was such a great thin/er could support
such violence$ I realised that his /ind o% thought totalises3 that is3 reduces other people to %it into
a syste&$ This has the tendency to perpetuate and perpetrate violence. Bence the /ind o%
thin/ing that attracts &e now is the thin/ing that brea/s away or brea/s %ree o% any type or &ode
o% syste&atising3 what I call O%ollowing LevinasP an overvaluation o%= the said=3 which leads to
ideology and totalitarianis&$ 2s opposed to @the said= I propose @saying=$

!ob: 6:3 we=ll co&e bac/ to Levinas$ 2lthough labels are insu%%icient3 I nevertheless see
you both as e9istential psychotherapists$ Now i% you /ind o% tentatively accept the ter&3 could
you both in turn begin to tell &e how an e9istential psychotherapist operatesJ

"eon: Iou=re presu&ing that we do spea/ %ro& a place where we thin/ o% ourselves
according to a particular label3 which in this case is %e&istential psychotherapists, and I thin/
you &ight be putting us in a %alse position by as/ing us to start by calling ourselves e9istential
psychotherapists3 and then saying what an e9istential psychotherapist is$

Ste#e: 2lso I %eel that we=ve cut o%% this atte&pt3 which I /now &ay be co&plicated3 to
say what @saying= isC and it does get involuted and di%%icult so&eti&es3 but @saying= is so&ething
I=& saying now$ I don=t have a &essage that I=& Aust repac/aging$ %'ayin" is the heart o% the sort
o% wor/ I do in therapy$ @Saying= and ti&e are two o% the di%%icult ele&ents in the wor/3 but
absolutely crucial3 and without which it &a/es no sense even to begin to spea/ o% the wor/ that
we do3 in order to show how this wor/ is di%%erent %ro& Aust intellectual wor/ with boo/s$ 2nd
that could go bac/ to your e9istential ?uestion3 because I would say that the roots o% that /ind o%
wor/ing in the here+and+now3 so+called3 which is the being here3 which is called e9istence3 is also
the tradition o% the so+called e9istential thin/ers3 but Beidegger speci%icallyFwho is the %ounder
o% this approach$ This is the basis o% Ronnie=s thin/ing3 and his atte&pt to try and engage
psychoanalysis in a criti?ue o% itsel%$ 2s we /now3 this atte&pt %ell on dea% ears and led Ronnie to
brea/ %ro& the Dsychoanalytic Institute$ I see &ysel% as a %ellow traveller in this tradition o%
psychoanalytic criti?ue$

!ob: Let=s change the tac/$ Leon3 I /now every single case is di%%erent3 but can you begin
to describe what happens when so&eone co&es here to see youJ

"eon: ;ell3 people don=t start by co&ing here$ 8irst there=s a call3 usually it=s a telephone
call3 and the language o% the call is i&portant3 because it=s usually a call %or help$ 2nd I thin/ o%
what I do in ter&s o% a calling to respond to those /inds o% calls3 which I thin/ I=& able to
respond to &ore responsibly and care%ully with the passage o% ti&e$ So&eone co&es in3 having
&ade an appoint&ent to &eet3 and as/s how to beginFwhat happensJ 2nd I say there=s no
progra&&e$ 6r i% they see& lost and unable to get going3 or i% they didn=t say very &uch on the
phone3 I &ight as/ Q;hat=s occasioned this callJ ;hat=s happening such that you called &e at
this ti&eJR 2nd then the person usually starts telling his or her story$ Either what=s going on
i&&ediately in their li%e3 or what=s been going on %or a while3 or what crisis they=re i&&ersed in3
or &aybe i&&ersed in denying$ 2 person begins to tell &e so&ething o% what has occasioned the
call3 and I do the best I can to listen3 and toF

!ob: <o you always believe what they tell youJ

"eon: No3 I try to suspend belie%$ I% I=& hearing things that I %ind hard to believe3 I &ight
also be %inding it hard to suspend belie%3 but no3 I don=t always believe what people tell &e$ That
would be silly3 because people &ight be telling it li/e it is %or the&3 but how it is %or the& &ight
be a gross distortion as %ar as so&eone else in the sa&e social %ield is concerned3 and so on$ But I
don=t usually %ind that a big issue3 especially on &eeting people %or the %irst ti&e$ I usually do
believe that they=re troubled or perple9ed$ That=s li/ely obvious %ro& how they are3 whatever
they were saying$

!ob: <o you have a sense o% doing so&ething about itJ

"eon: ;ell3 it depends what you &ean by %doin" so!ethin" about it=$ 8or instance3 there
was a wo&an who ca&e to see &e today3 and I was able to say bac/ to her what I was hearing
%ro& herC not interpreting it3 not saying Q;hat you said &eans such and suchR3 but really Aust
saying a nu&ber o% things she had said3 and then lin/ing the& and saying that so&e o% it sounded
li/e di%%erent ways o% saying the sa&e thing$ So&eti&es I had a ?uestion about what she was
saying because I couldn=t ?uite understand this or that3 and we had a brie% e9change about it3 and
she said QThat=s help%ul3 I thin/ I understand that better now3 but what a& I supposed to do with
itJR 2nd I said so&ething li/e QI=& not sure that you have to do anything with it3 especially Aust
now3 Aust stay with it$ Loo/ into it care%ully3 ?uestion it as to what this is really all about and how
it=s co&e about$ ;hat is it about it that you want to shi%tJ ;hat=s at sta/eJR

2nother person today said she thought she wasn=t going to co&e along any &oreC that she
was %eeling &uch better than she had when she %irst ca&e so&e &onths agoC she &ay want to
co&e again3 but there was one particular proble& o% relationships that she had3 and she said QThe
rest o% &y li%e is wor/ing well3 e9cept this3 this is li/e bro/en3 how do you %i9 itJR She really
as/ed that ?uestionFRBow do you %i9 itJR 2nd I said QI can=t really answer that in the ter&s that
the ?uestion is put3 because I don=t thin/ &echanically li/e that$ I &ean i% your car was bro/en it
would be %air enough to bring it to so&eone and say loo/ this apparatus isn=t wor/ing3 %i9 it$ Q
But what was going on in her li%e with other people wasn=t a &atter o% %i9ing it$ ;hat is the @it=
that needs to be @%i9ed=J 2nd what was the %i9ingJ 2nd so on3 so so&eti&es I proble&atise
peoples= ways o% tal/ing about what they thin/ needs to be done and what they thin/ they ought
to do$ Droble&atising and ?uestioning what they=re saying and how they=re saying it are o%ten
help%ul$ Deople &ay be able to put in ?uestion the way they have been e9periencing3 thin/ing
andEor e9pressing so&ething3 and so&eti&es that in itsel% begins to &a/e ?uite a di%%erence$

Ste#e: 8eeling better could be seen or heard to &ean bein" better at feelin". Bow do you
get so&eone to be better at %eelingJ ;ell you don=t get so&eone to be better at %eeling3 only they
can do it$ But they can=t do it alone$ So how does it happenJ ;ell by hearing onesel%$ Bow do
you hear yoursel%J ;ell you hear &e hearing you$ It ta/es so&e ti&e %or this to happen$ 2s you
hear yoursel%3 through hearin" !e hearin" you, you start to %eel better in the sense o% being better
at hearing3 %eeling and being aware$ ;hat are you aware o%J ;ell you are aware o% the way you
are3 the way in which you are$ Iou beco&e aware o% how each instant3 each &o&ent3 is an
instance o% your li%e+ti&e3 the way you are in li%e3 the way you are in the world$ Bow every
&o&ent is a pregnant &o&ent$ The &o&ent is a weave o% strands and threads3 but at any
&o&ent you can only pull one o% the threads to see how the thread connects to both past and
present3 and is perhaps bloc/ing a %uture that could perhaps be a %uture with &ore potential$

"eon: That &atter o% being heard is &ost i&portant$ Derhaps they have been heard but
haven=t heard the&selves being heard$ 2nd this has so&e relation to how you=re spea/ing or3
indeed3 whether you=re yet spea/ing3 and saying so&ething to another$ This is beyond any /ind
o% @doing= as ordinarily understood$ Iet it &ay be the &ost i&portant %actor in what=s therapeutic$

Ste#e: I have to allude again Oand I /now it=s di%%icultP to the di%%erence between @ the
said and @sayin". @The said= you can repeat whether or not you=re heardFit could be a tape
recorder playing3 and a lot o% people are tal/ing to one another that wayFas opposed to @saying=3
which you don=t /now in advance3 because you haven=t Aust got a tape that you=re repeating3 you
don=t /now how it=s going to co&e3 and it has to be a hearing spea/ing3 so that you both hear
both yoursel% and your own %eeling3 and also sense the other person=s receptivity$ Moving %ro&
the &ode o% @the said= to @saying= is therapeutic$ 6nce you are engaging the other in discourse
and dialogue3 the space %or so&ething &eaning%ul to go on bet#een you and the 6ther is opened$
This is what is therapeutic about therapy$

!ob: Leon3 do you have any hard and %ast rules about how long people co&e to you once
they enter into a contractJ

"eon: No$

!ob: ;ell3 those therapists who say that so&eone should co&e regularly to the& %or a
certain period o% ti&e3 are they doing it out o% %inancial gain or %ro& so&e /ind o% theoretical
sensibilityJ

"eon: I=& sure it=s di%%erent %or each therapist$ There=s not necessarily a %inancial gain in
having people co&e regularly %or a certain period o% ti&e$ That depends on variables li/e the
nu&ber o% people wanting to consult with and be in therapy with you and whether they can
a%%ord to pay your usual session %ee i% they co&e regularly$ I=& not sure what you &ean by
@theoretical sensibility= as I don=t thin/ o% sensibility as theoretical3 but I don=t thin/ there=s any
theoretical basis %or saying to so&eone that they should co&e along regularly %or a certain period
o% ti&e$ That=s li/ely a &atter o% how one=s been taught3 what the re?uire&ents o% one=s training
were3 the e9perience one has had in wor/ing with people and what one is co&%ortable enough
with$ I=& %airly %le9ible about %re?uency and duration and even regularity$ I% people as/ &e how
long it=s going to ta/e3 I &ight as/ the& what they understand by the @it= they=re as/ing about$ I%
they &ean how long it=s li/ely to ta/e3 &eeting and wor/ing together3 to get an understanding o%
where they=re at and a release %ro& where and how they=re stuc/3 or %ro& the way they are or the
way in which they are notFI=& thin/ing here o% a line %ro& @East Co/er= in T$ S$ Eliot=s (our
QuartetsFI usually say it ta/es as long as it ta/es$ But in ter&s o% how regularly and how o%ten
we &eet3 I=ll usually say what I thin/ will wor/ best a%ter hearing %ro& the& what they %eel and
thin/3 what they want and what their circu&stances and priorities are3 and so we arrive at a way
o% wor/ing together3 at least a provisional one that we can review and revise as we go along$

Ste#e: There is the real world ti&e3 and the ti&e o% therapy3 which is e&traordinary ti!e.
Convention governs real world ti&e$ 8reud invented the convention o% the leased hourFhe
leased %i%ty &inutes o% every hour in his wor/ing day$ ;e tend to practise this way$ 8reud %igured
that he could earn a living i% he leased eight or ten hours a day3 si9 days a wee/3 and that=s how
&uch ti&e he had to lease3 and so he divided it up3 and in %act he co&&itted so&eone to co&e
si9 days a wee/ and they had a slot3 li/e a ti&e share3 and then i% they couldn=t /eep to that he=d
put so&eone else in$ 2nd on that basis he %elt that he was ta/ing care o% his own house3 his own
econo&y3 in order then to &a/e hi&sel% available %or what I call the e9tra+ordinary in the
ordinary3 that is the therapeutic session$ That ti&e people would call subAective ti&e3 because
so&eti&es it see&s to ta/e endless ti&e3 and so&eti&es it see&s to go in a second$ Everyone=s
e9perience is di%%erent and singular$ I thin/ it=s i&portant that people have the %reedo& at any
ti&e not to co&e bac/$ I wor/ on a session+by+session basis3 so that each session clients &ust
renew their co&&it&ent to co&e bac/ the ne9t ti&e$ This approach %osters a sense o% beco&ing
&ore o% an a"ent, o% e9periencing one=s own agency3 rather than re&aining passive3 doing things
by routine or rote$ In %act the &eaning o% this passivity is pathology or su%%ering$ I% one &oves
%ro& su%%ering3 passivity and pathology to agency3 to takin" responsibility %or one=s own li%e3
then the therapeutic process has wor/ed$

!ob: Leon3 when there are %allow ti&es in your therapeutic li%e3 when patients don=t
see& to be hurtling through the door3 isn=t there a te&ptation to /eep people onJ

"eon: Ies3 and I=ve learnt with ti&e to be less te&pted to give in to that te&ptation3 and
also to have &ore %aith that people will once again co&e to the door$ But it is a te&ptation3 so
I=& happy when it isn=t a %allow period3 because I don=t want to be te&pted in that way$

!ob: ;hile we=re tal/ing about the potential sins o% therapists3 can you tal/ about the
a%%ections3 loves or hatreds that you=ve endured over the yearsJ

"eon: I=ll say what=s co&e up very recently$ It concerns one guy I &eet with$ I was
noticing over the last &onths how &uch &ore I=ve co&e to li/e hi&3 and it has so&ething to do
with changes that are happening3 and it &ust have to do with what is going on between us$ I %ind
he=s &ore there in a way that I li/e and respect3 and there=s a /ind o% war&th that wasn=t there
be%ore$ There=s no ?uestion that so&ething has changed between us3 to the point where the other
day he was able to tell &e3 &aybe &ore graphically than be%ore3 and also with less ani&osity3
how very angry he was with &e a year and a hal% ago$ I had charged hi& %or a &issed session
when he %elt that he couldn=t have co&e because o% so&e personal e&ergency3 and I=d said I was
still e9pecting to be paid %or that session$ 2nd he said he=d %elt li/e ta/ing an a9e to &y head3 and
we=d tal/ed about it a nu&ber o% ti&es be%ore3 but the other day we tal/ed about it again and
there was a new war&th between us3 because we also realised that we=d got through so&ething$
2nd I was also &oved to say QListen3 i% you=re still holding onto that3 let &e give you bac/ the
&oney %or itC you /now i% you %eel that o%%ended by that3 I don=t want that to be between us3 I
want to give it bac/ to youR$ 2nd he thought that I had given it bac/ already3 and I said QNo3 I
don=t thin/ I haveR3 and we each started arguing the other side o% it3 whether it was Aust to charge
and whether I=d given the &oney bac/H

!ob: 2re there di%%erences involved in wor/ing with %e&ale patientsJ

"eon: Ies3 though I=& not sure I now behave in a %unda&entally di%%erent &anner with
&en or wo&en3 or with people o% this or that se9ual pre%erence3 in the conte9t o% therapy$ I &ean
I thin/ other %actors are probably as or &ore %unda&ental$ ;ith age and e9perience3 I can better
ac/nowledge the presence o% se9ual desire bet#een us3 which is what you=re alluding to3 and
clearer about this re?uiring care%ul attention3 understanding and responsible responding to$

Ste#e: I=& not too sure$ Derhaps a %e&ale client reveals her se9uality to you &ore
e9plicitly than a &ale clientJ

!ob: <oes that raise proble&sJ

Ste#e: Ies$ It=s a delicate proble& when a %e&ale client co&es on to you$

!ob: I=& sorry3 but this is an area that people don=t tal/ a lot about3 so I=d li/e you to
e9pand as &uch as you can$ I &ean3 do they as/ you %or se9J Is it your interpretation that they
want to go to bed with youJ

Ste#e: Ies3 on occasion3 but not o%ten$ It=s not Aust &y interpretation$ It isn=t always direct
or e9plicit3 but it is clearly i&plied$ 6% course to co&ply would abort the therapy apart %ro& any
other consideration$

"eon: ;hen you use the ter& @abort=3 the &etaphor that you bring up suggests therapy as
a pregnancy3 a gestationF$

Ste#e: Therapy is a "estation, it has its ti&e o% un%olding$ The therapist &ust orchestrate
that process3 and it=s inevitable that you would lose your ability to do that i% you were to beco&e
involved directly in real ti&e3 in a real world situation with a client$ I% you had a sel%ish personal
sta/e and interest in a client3 which always would happen in a se9ual relationship3 the ti&e o%
therapy would end$ Iou can=t be a therapist to your lover$

!ob: 6rchestrateFJ

Ste#e: Convene the process

!ob: But the convenor is the person in charge$

Ste#e: I wouldn=t deny that I=& in charge$ I thin/ I a& to so&e e9tent charged with the
responsibility to allow the session to un%old in the best way that I=& able in order not to let things
get in its way3 to give the other person the space to be heard$

"eon: The e9change the two o% you Aust had brings to &ind the proble&atics o%
hospitality that I was reading about in >ohn Caputo=s boo/ )econstruction in a *utshell
O8ordha& 4niversity
Dress3 #..(P3 an account o% a Roundtable discussion with >ac?ues <errida together with
Caputo=s co&&entary$ Be points out that the host has to retain the &astery o% the house to o%%er
hospitality3 he has to li&it the gi%t o% hospitality$ Be tal/s about the tension that inheres in
@hospitality=$ I=ll ?uote this brie% passage' QFthe possibility o% hospitality is sustained by its
i&possibilityC hospitality really starts to get under way only when we @e9perience= Lwhich &eans
to travel or go throughM this paralysis Lthe inability to &oveM Bospitality really starts to happen
when I push against this li&itFR$

I% you=re o%%ering hospitality3 you=re opening your door3 your li%eC you=re opening to
so&eone else$ But you=ve got to stay &aster o% your own house3 or else you can=t be o%%ering
hospitality3 because you=ve got to have your house to be o%%ering hospitality to so&eone co&ing
inC so there=s a balancing3 it=s never one or the otherC it=s both$ ;hen people co&e to see &e I=&
o%%ering hospitality in a sense3 even though they=re paying$ I=& not directing it3 but neither is it
anything goes$ I=ve got to %ind a way to be able to give3 and be able to let giving happen3 even
though I=& charging$ 2nd I have to be able to e9ercise &y responsibility3 even though I=& not3
conventionally3 in charge$

Ste#e: It occurs to &e3 and I don=t /now i% this is a %air analogy3 that there=s a co&parison
between therapy and a ritual associated with >esus and the >esus &ove&ent$ >esus told his
disciples to go and enable people to be healed by o%%ering the& the opportunity to give
hospitality. By their practising the act o% #elco!in" they would be healed$ This is a slight
reversal o% what we do3 but it=s not co&pletely di%%erent$ In therapy there=s a welco&ing and
&eeting3 so that whenever we are gathered in the na&e o% this ritual we are in the presence o% a
certain /ind o% way3 a certain /ind o% aliveness or enlivening3 that can occur between us$ In the
>esus &ove&ent it is co!!ensality, the brea/ing o% bread3 and the drin/ing o% wine$ In the
8reudian &ove&ent it is spea/ing truth and +ust listenin".

"eon: So&ething that ca&e up recently co&es to &ind$ I had a phone call %ro& a wo&an3
who& I had &et on one occasion3 several &onths ago3 along with her husband and their teenage
son$ I had &et the& because the parents were concerned about their son3 who=d been depressed
and3 at ti&es3 suicidal$ Be=d been in a psychiatric hospital3 was discharged or about to be
discharged on drugs3 and she was wondering about the possibility o% his seeing &e %or
psychotherapy3 so&ething she3 and he3 had discussed$ She as/ed &e i% I wor/ed with
adolescents$ I told her that I so&eti&es3 though not o%ten3 wor/ed with adolescents3 that &ost o%
the people that I saw were adults but that i% he wanted to &eet with &e we could &eet once3
anyhow3 to discuss that possibility$ 6r I could re%er hi& to one o% several colleagues who do
wor/ with children and adolescents$ But she said so&ething was troubling her and she wanted to
/now what I thought$ In hospital3 he was diagnosed @schiGophrenic=3 and when she had told the
psychiatrist that psychotherapy with so&eone her son had &et and wanted to &eet again was
being considered3 she was told that he should de%initely not have psychotherapy3 that therapy
would be @&eddleso&e= %or so&eone who was schiGophrenic$ It would do no good and li/ely
inter%ere with his treat&ent and recovery$ She as/ed &e what I thought about that$ I %ound &ysel%
angry at this guy %or saying such a thing3 but tried to be &easured in &y response$ I said therapy
&ay or &ay not be help%ul3 in any given situation o% two people &eeting in a particular ti&e3
place and conte9t$ But what could the psychiatrist &ean by @&eddleso&e=J Meddling in whatJ In
what he thin/s is a good and right way3 perhaps the only good and right way3 to treat this boyJ
Bow can so&eone suggest that it=s going to be har&%ul %or this young guy who=s been depressed3
con%used3 %rightened3 in and out o% %eeling suicidal3 har&%ul %or hi& to &eet and tal/ with
another %ellow creatureJ 4nless he had ?uali%ied his re&ar/s3 which according to her account he
had not3 his response to her in?uiry was3 I thin/3 careless3 biased3 ignorant and irresponsible$ Be
&ight believe that people who& he and his colleagues consider are @schiGophrenic=3 by this or
that set o% criteria3 do not respond well to so&e category o% @treat&ent= /nown as
@psychotherapy=$ But he see&s closed to the possibility that so&ething "ood could co&e o% two
people choosing to &eet to address the proble&atics o% li%e3 including relationships to others3 that
one o% the& in particular has been co&ing up against3 whether considered pri&arily in the
conte9t o% an illness or not$ Be see&s not to have considered that how this young guy was
treated3 and %elt treated3 by others could pro%oundly a%%ect his @&ental= state$

4n%ortunately he=s not alone in ta/ing the view he does$ ;hen I was training as a
psychiatrist a lot o% psychiatrists and psychiatric nurses3 though not usually at the places I
trained3 were taught that it was best not to tal/ to people who are psychotic3 because it wouldn=t
do any good and would probably &a/e the& &a/e the& worse$ I thought that attitude had
changed$ Derhaps it had3 %or a while in the #.0"s and #.("s3 but the predo&inant organic
aetiology and corresponding drug and other @physical= interventions are bac/ in %orce3 and there
is little serious consideration in psychiatry %or alternative ways o% being with and responding to
others in severe &ental distress$ It=s not pri&arily a &atter o% &edical science3 as psychiatrists
and the drug co&panies would have us believe3 but an econo&ic3 cultural and ethical &atterF
and a &atter o% hospitality$

Ste#e: 2 hospital isn=t always hospitableF

!ob: There=s a boo/ called The ,ana"ed -eart by 2rlie Bochschild3 in which she
e9a&ines the private lives o% those people who spend their ti&e in the e&otional arena3 and she=s
interested in how such people who listen to others all day are able to listen to their partners when
they get ho&e$ It goes beyond that to discuss how they are when they=re on+stage and o%%+stage3
and so on and so %orth$ Bave you thought about thatJ

"eon: 2s I get older and &ore e9perienced3 and certainly at &y best3 it beco&es less and
less o% a strain to listen in therapy3 less o% an e&otional strain$ I=& not straining at it$ I=&
so&eti&es very tired3 and it can then be a strain Aust to listen attentively$ But I so&eti&es %ind it
di%%icult to turn o%% a /ind o% attentive listening$ It=s not a &atter o% %inding it di%%icult to turn o%%
@playing the therapist=3 whatever that is$ I %ind o%ten that I cannot not hear$ I cannot not hear what
people are saying and that they=re not hearing what they=re saying and they aren=t ta/ing
responsibility %or what they=re saying$ 2nd I %ind that harder than Steve does$ I can say this
because we=re o%ten together in social situations$ I %ind it &ore di%%icult than Steve does to Aust let
go o% that$

Ste#e: ;hat e9hausts &e and brings &e down is i% I=& not listening with what I call a
"ood ear. 6%ten it=s ti&es in &y own private li%e that so&eti&es are disruptive3 and which &a/es
it &ore proble&atic %or &e to clear the space %or the other person$ But when I a& listening well I
get energised3 it=s only when I realise I=& screwing up in so&e way3 as in a disarticulated
response3 that I %eel aw%ul3 and get brought down$ In everyday li%e I do /ind o% turn o%% what I
call &y %ine+tuning$ I don=t want to hear people in this way i% they=re not inviting &e to hear
the&3 in that way$

"eon: I=d li/e to co&e bac/ to so&ething I brought up when we &et last ti&e$ Rather
than you draw us out with these ?uestions3 can=t we Aust have a conversationJ Because beyond
wanting to get a boo/ out o% this3 what we=re tal/ing about actually &atters to us3 li/e where
we=re co&ing %ro&3 and what=s i&passioning us$ ;e=re not indi%%erent to these &atters$

Ste#e: Correct$

"eon: So what is i&passioning usJ 2nd can we3 in %act3 in the way that we=re spea/ing to
each other3 show so&ething o% what we=re &eaning to practise and sayJ I don=t thin/ the
?uestion and answer &ode is the best way o% being able to @per%or&= and de&onstrate that$

Ste#e: Ieah3 I totally agree$ ;hat Leon and I so&eti&es are good at doing is
conversation3 but Aust in line with what Leon is suggesting that very &uch %ascinates &e3 is what
you &a/e o% this whole %ield3 having now interviewed Ronnie over ti&e and interviewed a whole
bunch o% therapists3 listening to usJ I want to hear it %ro& you3 Bob$

"eon: 2nd I=d li/e to hear it %ro& you3 not only %or the purpose o% this boo/3 but I enAoy
your co&pany3 andF

!ob: I as/ the ?uestionsH Leon3 you=ve tal/ed about the patient you saw %or three years3
that you=d grown to li/e hi&3 and you said that you=d particularly Qli/ed the way that he was
&ore thereR$ Iou were i&plying that there is so&ething we should aspire to$ My ?uestion is this'
are you Aust happy that they see& happier3 or when they=ve done things that &a/e the& into what
you thin/ is a good3 grounded hu&an beingJ

"eon: I would have to go case by case with each person3 and not spea/ about @the&=$ I
don=t thin/ I can say very &uch about how I respond to all people$ This guy is very sharp$ Be
was also practising what we both called a /ind o% @&ind+%uc/ing= on people he=d &eet$ They=d be
very sha/en up by hi&3 both attracted and disturbed$ Be wasn=t3 in that &ode3 very caring
towards others$ That=s shi%ted &ar/edly$ Be is &ore there3 and he=s &ore there in a less obsessive
way$ There=s a greater depth and &aturity and war&th about hi&3 and &ore o% a goodness3 and
yes3 that war&s &y heart$ I=ve not been doin" so!ethin" or tryin" to get hi& to be that way3 but I
thin/ that=s a "ood outco&e$
I% people are lost and con%used3 and so&ewhere else3 @out to lunch=3 you /now distracted3
and then they co&e &ore into the roo&3 and &ore into relationship3 and &ore into conversation3
I do thin/ that=s a good thing3 yeah$ I li/e it3 I do thin/ its a good thing3 and o% course they
usually %eel better and %eel that=s a good outco&e$

CHAPTER TWO

$RE%& AN& "O'E

In these conversations a nu&ber o% issues are e9plored and debated3 especially the
philosophical and psychotherapeutic value o% 8reud and the &eaning o% @love=3 both spiritual and
erotic$

!ob: I thought it would be interesting i% we could start tal/ing about what 8reud &eans to
you both$

"eon: ;hat co&es to &ind is a note I &ade this &orning a%ter an 2le9ander lesson with
;alter Carrington$ Be was one o% 8$ M$ 2le9ander=s students3 and has been practising and
teaching the 2le9ander Techni?ue %or over si9ty years$ 2%ter &y lesson3 %eeling gently released
in &y being3 starting with &y body3 I was thin/ing how very pro%ound and very si&ple his wor/
wasFsi&ple3 though not at all easy to arrive at$ I wrote the words %si!ply profound and
profoundly si!ple on a notepad while on the train returning %ro& &y lesson$

I thin/ the best o% 8reud=s contributions are li/e that too$ 2nd li/e with 2le9ander=s wor/3
which Carrington continues and e9tends3 it too/ 8reud really dwelling with a proble& and
attending to his own condition3 as well as that o% others3 be%ore he ca&e up with a path that=s also
si&ple but not easy to arrive at$ I=& thin/ing in particular o% his reco&&endations on practice3
which are gathered together in papers that he wrote between #.## and #.#1 or thereabouts$ Be
suggested that the analysand be as/ed to say whatever occurred to hi& or her3 Aust to say
whatever ca&e to &ind3 even i% they %elt it &ight be o%%ensive3 e&barrassing3 too trivial or
irrelevant$ 2nd his reco&&endation to the therapist was to +ust listen, listen with an evenly.
hoverin" attention, again so&ething very si&ple3 though not at all easy$ ;hat=s called %or here is
an unpro"ra!!ed attention, and one person tending and attending to another$ That=s a si&ply
pro%ound and pro%oundly si&ple way to be with and relate to so&eone$ It=s a way whereby
so&eone can3 perhaps %or the %irst ti&e ever3 %eel heard3 hear the&selves being heard$ So&eone is
listening and connecting to the&3 while letting the& be3 not i&posing on the&3 &anipulating
the& or su%%ocating the&$ It=s a re&ar/able &ove that 8reud &ade$ 8reud=s &ove contributed
towards the possibility o% un#indin", un.knottin", allowing this organis& &ore breathin" space,
by starting with attending to and ac/nowledging how one is and &oving toward a lettin" be and
breathin" freely. I=& purposely using language that evo/es and resonates with the wor/ o%
2le9ander3 Laing3 and with &any Eastern spiritual teachings$ I thin/ they all contribute to getting
rid o% so&e o% the obstacles to this /elassenheitor release!ent, at all levels o% our being here
with others$ That=s where I place the best o% 8reud3 and what I thin/ is3 or could be3 i% deeply
understood3 e&bodied and practised3 its greatest value$ That=s certainly what=s very &eaning%ul
to &e$

That re&inds &e o% so&ething a wo&an who was in therapy with Ronnie told &e$ I=ll tell
it in as close to her own words3 or the spirit and %lavour o% her own words3 as I can$ This is a
wo&an with a lot o% heart3 then and now doing her best %or others in distress yet living in %ear3 or
was then and %or a long ti&e a%terward3 %eeling her very e9istence at sta/e at any &o&ent3
especially i% she %elt another getting too close$

;hen she began seeing Ronnie3 her sense o% sel% was such thatshe e9perienced hersel% as
a balloon %loating high above a vast3 barren3 e&pty landscape$ 2nd at that ti&e3 and %or years
later3 she=d draw picturesFI=ve got so&eFo% landscapes devoid o% li%e3 with a %ew dead and
rootless trees$ She=d be terri%ied that the balloon could bu&p into so&ething that would puncture
it3 turning @it=3 or her3 into ?uic/ly dispersing hot air and a piece o% rubber' doing away with her
co&pletely$ Ber &ain way o% relating to others was through eye contact3 and conversation$ She
said that wasn=t &uch help with Ronnie in her sessions3 given what she described as his habit o%
o%ten sitting in his chair3 o%ten &erged3 %or her3 with the chair3 slouched3 with his eyes closed3
hardly &oving or spea/ing$ That &ade it di%%icult %or her to sustain any sense o% her own
e9istence when she was with hi&$ 6ne day3 when she was %eeling particularly desperate and
distraught3 %eeling that the space between the&3 obviously a very proble&atic space3 was so
unbridgable3 not /nowing what to say3 she sensed Ronnie=s presence gradually %illing the roo&$
Be hadn=t opened his eyes or said anything or stirred in his chair$ 2nd she %elt his presence %illing
the roo& around her until she %elt co&pletely enveloped and held by hi&3 and %safe in her
distress. She said3 years later3 that this particular ability o% his to be with her in a way she %ound
@deeply understanding3 co&passionate and truly loving=3 non+threatening3 non+invasive3 non+
intrusive and unconditional3 &eant that he could touch and connect #ith her balloon #ithout
destroyin" it, or her.

Now that=s not 8reud3 that=s Laing3 but I would say there=s so&ething o% an inviting3
unintrusive3 non+&anipulative attentiveness i&plicit in 8reud=s reco&&endations that Laing too/
%urther$ 8reud as/ed &ore o% his analysands in ter&s o% their agreeing to say whatever occurred
to the&$ Ronnie3 depending on where people were at3 was &ore content to let others arrive at
%inding and spea/ing with their own voice3 %inding their own way and in their own ti&e$ Be was
%inely tuned and responsive and could3 and would3 play it by ear.
I should add that now3 years later3 including &any years in therapy with &e3 this wo&an
is co&ing to %eel li/e an ordinary person3 with her %eet on the ground and her body no longer
hollow3 or %illed with sewage3 and balloon+li/e$ She=s begun to be in the roo& with &e &ore
%ully and securely and co&%ortably3 and has begun to en+oy her li%e and relationships with others$
She couldn=t3 %or a very long ti&e3 understand how I could @put up with= her$ 8ollowing on %ro&
her e9periences with Ronnie3 she %eels that the di%%erence I &ade was to do with providing her
with a sa%e space and a sa%e @li%e+a%%ir&ing presence=3 and to have seen and heard her3 and
responded to her3 in a way she never felt seen and heard, and responded to3 in her %a&ily3 so that
she could gradually co&e to hersel% and ta/e her place in the world in an un%raught way %or the
%irst ti&e$

Since she beca&e interested in sha&anic traditions3 she=s also co&e to re%er to the space
that can be created in therapy as @sacred space=$

So the best o% 8reud %or &e starts with so&ething pro%oundly si&ple$ It=s less about doing
so&ething than it is about opening and allowing a space %or &eetingC &ore about inviting and
welco&ing and attending to and %inding s/il%ul &eans than it is about @doing= so&ething or
%ollowing theoretical guidelines$

!ob: Can I Aust interrupt %or a &inute3 LeonJ But what about the theoriesFthe theory o%
the unconscious3 the theory o% childhood se9uality$ ;hat about all those thingsFthe Ego3 the
Superego3 the IdJ I &ean3 8reud is &ore than si&ply @bedside &anner=$

Ste#e: Cutting in to answer your ?uestion o% what 8reud &eans to &e3 as I &entioned the
last ti&e we &et3 I grew up with philosophy3 and 8reud e9plicitly distanced hi&sel% %ro& the
philosophers$ Be asserted that he wasn=t theorising philosophically$ ;hat he clai&ed to be doing
was wor/ing %ro& his e9perience$
Be was discovering hour by hour in his clinical practice what would oblige hi& to
rethink his entire #ay of thinkin", each ti&e anew or a%resh$ So unless you e&bed what it is that
he says in the conte9t o% when he says it3 and what he was thin/ing about at the ti&e3 which is a
big tas/ %or 8reudian historians3 you really can=t pin on hi& syste&atic theories3 and thin/ that
they=re a philosophy3 and there%ore that you can debate hi& as you could a philosopher$ That
would be a &ista/e$

"eon: I was connecting up with the 8reud that is &ost &eaning%ul to &e3 I thin/ that=s
how you %ra&ed the ?uestion$ <oes it see& to &e that I and other people are &oved by i&pulses
or intentions that we=re not conscious o%J 6% course$ <o I thin/ it was a &aAor contributionJ Sure
I do$ <o I %eel he=s necessarily the %irst one who said that3 or said it better than anyone elseJ Be
probably said it better than anyone else in the conte9t o% a physician concerned with addressing
the su%%ering o% patients$ ;e can %ind so&ething o% this in NietGsche3 in Sha/espeare3 in
selections %ro& literature down through the ages$ But not as the basis o% a ;estern healing
practice o% respondin", respect%ully and3 at its best3 #isely and co!passionately, to the sufferin"
of another there in the roo& with you3 which is how I thin/ we ought to &a/e use o% 8reud=s
wor/ in a therapy practice$

Ste#e: Those papers on techni?ue that 8reud wrote3 which %or &e are the starting point
%or &y reading o% 8reud3 discuss psychoanalysis as analogous to chess$ Now 8reud says that
what anyone who reads boo/s about chess will ?uic/ly %ind out when they start to play the "a!e
is that they=ve only learned about opening &oves and end ga&es$ But in order actually to play
they will have to %ollow the ga&es o% the &asters$ 2nd then3 even then3 you can=t really learn
%ro& boo/s3 you=ve got to play$ Now this is so&ething that is obscured by the 8reudian
theorising3 which has &ore to do with archives and invest&ent in an institution3 which o% course
8reud did create3 was responsible %or3 which caused hi& great despair3 and at the end o% the day3
was counter+productive to the continuation o% discovery and the develop&ent o% what he started$
Now what is this ga&e called psychoanalysisJ ;hat does it &ean to lease your ti&eJ 8reud
leased his ti&e3 that was so&ething that he started$ That=s not e9actly a theory3 but it=s a
theoretical practice, because he said that you learn &ore about hu&an nature when you lease
your ti&e than any other way$ Iou learn all the di%%erent ways that people &a/e e9cuses about
not showing up3 showing up late3 and then what they do with this ti&e that you give$ Now3 what
does it &ean to give ti&e to so&ebodyJ This is the ti&e o% your li%e that you=re giving to the&$
Iou=re giving to the& the attention that Leon was spea/ing aboutFan evenly.hoverin" attention
0what=s thatJ Bow do you do thatJ Bow do you brac/et your own assu&ptions and
preoccupations3 your own li%e3 your own biases3 your own pre%erences3 to listen to so&eone
%reely3 to +ust listen1

"eon: Indeed3 is it in %act possibleJ

Ste#e: Is it even possibleJ 6r is this a counsel o% per%ection which we don=t ever live up
to entirelyJ

"eon: ;e can get better at it$ There=s no %inal arriving there$

Ste#e: 2nd why do itJ ;hy should this help people %eel betterJ 8reud argues that you
also have to eschew or give up therapeutic a!bition. So this goes bac/ to a prior ?uestion which
you didn=t as/3 but which you said you probably would as/' what is the place o% caring attention
in this ga&e o% analysisJ Interestingly enough3 the only way we /now that it OanalysisP wor/s is
counterintuitive$ Darado9ically i% there are therapeutic outco&es3 that is i% people get better3 then
this &ight &ean that %eeling better is to be better at %eeling$ This outco&e is o%ten perceived by
the client as %eeling worse3 %eeling &ore pain and su%%ering3 e9periencing the hell the person is in$
To get your clients to %eel better or %eel &ore3 it=s best not to have e9pectations o% the persons
who spea/ to you$ The &o&ent you have any e9pectations3 they &ay pic/ that up and try to
please you$ There%ore they=ll have a pseudo.cure, they=ll co&e away %eeling they=re cured3 when
in %act their sy&pto&s will return3 or di%%erent sy&pto&s will reappear$ They won=t have really
touched their %eelings$ There=s no a&bition3 no e9pectation in this counsel that 8reud gives o%
listening in an evenly+hovering way$ <on=t ta/e notes3 don=t worry about trying to re&e&ber
anything3 and that=s all you need to do to practise in the 8reudian &anner$

"eon: 2lthough even these reco&&endations3 he said3 are what wor/s %or hi&$ Be=s
reco&&ending chec/ing it out3 but he=s not insisting that this is the way that it=s got to be$ It=s
not necessarily the way everyone trying to practise psychoanalysis should go about it$

Ste#e: More speci%ically this idea o% the couch3 and sitting behind the person3 and
allowing the person then to speak freely, or free associate, or say whatever co&es to &ind3 and to
listen with this evenly+hovering attention behind the&$ Now what he said was that he couldn=t
bear loo/ing %ace+to+%ace %or eight hours a day3 at other people=s %aces$ Be also %elt that by the&
loo/ing at his %ace he &ight betray so&e e9pectations3 or so&e reactions3 or responses3 which
would then cloud the issue o% therapeutic a&bition and its suspension$ So he wanted to do &ore
o% the sort o% thing that you were saying that Ronnie did when he closed his eyesC what the
person with hi& %elt was that Ronnie filled the roo! #ith his presence. >ust listening &eans that
8reud understood the ethical principle3 which is basically that the %ace+to+%ace relationship is not
the physical3 tangible3 literal3 visual visage o% the other person=s i&age3 %acing another i&age$
The %ace+to+%ace is understanding the depth o% the other person=s in%inite presence3 and that
in%inite presence o% 8reud3 and the infinite presence o% the other who& he is in so&e sense trying
to &eet3 can o%ten ta/e place &ore e%%ectively with a person lying on the couch and 8reud on the
chair behind3 rather than in a so+called inter+personal %ace+to+%ace encounter where the other
person is %acing the therapist$ Bowever there are disadvantages to the couch as well$ 2lso &y
own personality isn=t particularly suited to wor/ing with sitting behind so&eone who is lying on
the couch3 although so&eti&es I do wor/ in that way3 with so&e people3 when they indicate that
it would be appropriate %or the&$

"eon: I=ll pic/ up on @leasing ti&e=$ ;e=ve considered Leasin" Ti!e or 2ust Listenin" as
provisional titles$ Now leasin" ti&e brings to &y &ind re.leasin" as well$ Deople are o%ten
yearning %or a release o% a /ind3 or releases o% several sorts3 %ro& all &anner o% scenarios they
are3 or %eel or %ear they are3 stuck in3 i&prisoned in$ This &ost li/ely includes physical3 &ental3
social and spiritual and other di&ensions3 whether or not the person is aware o% or able to
articulate the&$

@To&= co&es to &ind$ Be was in therapy with &e &any years ago$ Be ca&e up with the
e9pression @buying ti&e=$ Be didn=t &ean paying %or &y ti&e3 which he did3 but rather see/ing to
de%er3 hope%ully %or good3 in both senses o% the phrase3 the see&ing relentless repetition o% a
%a&ily tragedy3 see/ing %or hi&sel%3 and he hoped others3 so&e release %ro& a gri& %a&ily
history that had been going on %or several generations$ There had been seven suicides across
three generations o% the %a&ily$ But no+one else in the %a&ily was open to psychotherapy$ They
were either disinterested or dis&issive o% it3 though so&ewhat accepting o% To&=s %inding value
in it %or hi&$ To&3 who %elt therapy had set hi& %ree in signi%icant ways to go his own way3
re%erred his brother @>ac/= to &e so&e years later$ >ac/ was severely distressed$ Those close to
hi& were a%raid he could be suicidal3 and one or two %eared he could be ho&icidal$ >ac/ &et with
&e inter&ittently %or a while$ Be=d said he desperately wanted to save his &arriage$
;hen his wi%e le%t with their /ids he stopped co&ing$ 2 year or so later3 To& called &e
and said he had so&ething sad and tragic to tell &e$ >ac/ had /illed hi&sel%$ 2nd he=d done it in
&uch the sa&e way as one o% his close relatives had a generation earlier3 with a very si&ilarFit
&ight have even been the sa&eFweapon$ So&e ti&e a%ter that3 he re%erred one o% his sisters to
see &e$ She was pro%oundly depressed$ She had been and still was consulting several
psychiatrists3 and was on anti+depressants$ ;e &et once and she cancelled a %ollow+up
appoint&ent3 saying she=d decided she didn=t want to &eet3 at least not then$ 2nd about a &onth
later3 To& called again with terrible news$ Bis sister co&&itted suicide$ It wasFand isFaw%ul$
To& and I &et a%ter that and he was saying that when he=d co&e into therapy3 he had been
buyin" ti!e in the hope o% what I=d say was %inding a way to release hi&sel%3 and perhaps others
in his %a&ily3 i% possible3 %ro& what in other ti&es and places would have been called a curse$

!ob: ;hat would you call it LeonJ

"eon: I=d call it so&ething horri%ic that=s getting passed down %ro& generation to
generation3 relating to what=s going on bet#een people. Nine people in this a%%luent and educated
%a&ily3 over three generations3 haven=t been able to cope with how it=s le%t the& %eeling3
whatever it is that=s a%%licted the&$ ;hether we call it depression or so&ething else doesn=t
e9plain why3 between the&3 they haven=t been able to co&e together to consider how what=s
going on between the& &ight be a %actor in all this and how they could begin to address that$
To& had hoped he was buying ti&e not only %or hi&sel% but %or others in the %a&ily as well$ In
co&ing %or therapy he had ta/en an initiative no+one else in the %a&ily had$ Be=d wanted to bite
the bullet and loo/ into what he %elt there wasn=t the space3 and certainly not the encourage&ent3
to loo/ into within the %a&ily$ Be passionately wanted to interrupt the terrible pattern$ ;ellF
I have a note %ro& hi& responding to &y re?uest %or per&ission to write about what he=d
related to &e$ Be says QDart o% &y personal trau&aFwas that I intuited or anticipated their
vulnerability Oas well as &y ownP and %eared %or theirE&y li%e$ Seeing you did indeed buy !e
ti!e to co&e to ter&s with &aAor proble&s$ Bow I wish they had had the ti&e and care to co&e
to ter&s with OtheirP &aAor proble&sFR

2nother &an who was seeing &e in therapy was considering the issue o% prostitution$ 2
close &ate o% his was considering it as an option %or earning so&e &uch+needed &oney$ Be was
?uestioning how this leasing ti&e3 o% therapy3 was di%%erent$ Isn=t the prostitute leasing ti&eJ
;ell3 I suppose you could say he or she isn=t leasing his or her ti&e3 but his or her body3 which is
one di%%erence$ There are si&ilarities3 too$ In each case so&eone &ay be standing in %or so&eone
else3 but in the case o% the therapist3 the desire o% the person who co&es to see you is revealed3
e9perienced3 realised3 owned and ac/nowledged$ But the na&e o% the ga&e isn=t to grati%y lusts
and %antasies$ Those &ay be actually be ?uite re&oved3 even cut+o%%3 %ro& deeper desire$ But the
prostitute is usually there to grati%y i&&ediate needs or desires3 without an understanding o%
one=s way o% being and relatedness being in ?uestion3 re?uested or on o%%er$

!ob: Can you elaborate on @standing in %or so&eone else=J

"eon: The word @prostitute= ety&ologically suggests so&eone who is standing in %or
so&eone$

Ste#e: 3rostituere4 to stand (pro) %orward3 hence e9pose onesel% %or sale$

"eon: 2nd the therapist o%ten %inds hi& or hersel% being placed3 by the other3 in the place
o% so&eone else$ 6ne o% 8reud=s i&portant contributions is the notion o% trans%erence$ This
involves the analysand3 or the patient3 or the clientFand we really ought to consider how best to
call the person who co&es %or therapy3 and the i&plications and conse?uences o% how they call
the&selves andEor are called by us and othersFcarrying across so&ething %ro& another ti&e3
place3 conte9t and set o% relationships into the therapy roo&3 onto the person o% the therapist3 and
onto the potential space o% relationship3 of !eetin", o% the two people actually in the consultation
roo&$ It=s a transfer, a ferryin" across, a %errying over o% sets o% desires3 attitudes3 ways o% being3
ways o% relating3 %ro& one ti&eEplaceEconte9t to another$ This sort o% carrying on and carrying
over &ay be3 and very li/ely is3 happening elsewhere in the patient=s li%e$ But now there=s the
possibility3 in therapy3 with the help o% another3 o% being able to attend to this and o% being
released %ro& patterns one &ight otherwise /eep repeating$

!ob: Can you elaborate that in ter&s o% your practiceJ Bow use%ul is the idea or the
concept o% trans%erenceJ

"eon: It=s a use%ul contribution to thin/ing about what=s going on$ Ta/e %or e9a&ple a
wo&an I saw once in consultation$ She e9perienced deep %rustration and rages with people who
couldn=t &eet her e9pectations$ The one relationship that hadn=t disappointed her was that with
her %ather$ Be always &et her e9pectations$ ;hen she was a toddler her &other suddenly le%t3
and she rarely saw her again until she was an adult$ Ber %ather brought her up$ That surely invites
one to consider what=s at sta/e %or her in her relationships$ I% she elects to get into therapy3 it=s
li/ely that so&e o% what will go on between us will be a %unction o% a carry+over o% a %eeling
andEor %ear o% abandon&ent by so&eone3 how devastating that is3 and also o% the e9pectation that
so&eone who really cares is going to be co&pletely there %or her3 never %rustrating or
disappointing her3 which is probably neither possible or desirable$
Ste#e: Iou %ind that so&eone will do what I call their %nu!ber$ 8or e9a&ple3 a client
&ight %eel that so&ething you said was reAecting$ There=s so&ebody I see who o%ten %eels
reAected$ ;henever his partner is with another %riend o% theirs3 he thin/s the partner will pre%er
the %riend3 or the partner will run o%% into the night with so&ebody else$ 2ctually I thin/ that it=s
so&ething he=s realised he had always actually believed3 but never %elt3 was going on between
hi&sel% and his %ather$ So there=s a reAection the&e3 a reAection @nu&ber=3 %eeling reAected3 which
by the very act of tryin" to avoid it beco&es a self.fulfillin" prophecy. ReAection co&es about by
trying to cling to another to avoid reAection$ Clinging will induce in the other the very reAection
we dread$ The co!pulsion to repeat that 8reud spea/s o% is o%ten so&ething that has already
happened between the child and parent$ This is the @nu&ber= that gets replayed unless the client
@sees= their own @nu&ber=3 sees that they are about to %do it a"ain and thus has the option not to
repeat$

!ob: Let &e as/ a very si&ple ?uestion$ <id 8reud3 or indeed do conte&porary analysts
believe that there has to be a substantial degree o% carry+over in order %or change to be
acco&plishedJ

Ste#e: It=s not that there has to be a substantial a&ount o% carryover %or therapy to be
acco&plishedC it=s rather that interestingly enough 8reud discovered that people avoid the very
thing that will release the&3 %ree the&3 %ro& their repetitive patterns. ;hyJ Because they have an
invest&ent in those patterns$ ;hyJ 8reud called it a secondary "ain, a gain %ro& their illness$ To
give you an illustration %ro& &y own e9perience3 I gained by being very &uch in &y head' I got
a Aob as a philosopher$ Bowever3 this caused &e a lot o% despair3 I %elt very cut+o%% %ro& other
people$ 4nconsciously3 I didn=t want to let go o% that style3 since I &ust have at so&e level been
a%raid that I would crash3 that I wouldn=t have a living3 even though it was based on this
so&ewhat pathological way o% being$ This produced what 8reud called resistance' I /ept trying
to deal with &y therapy intellectually3 and there%ore re%used actually to get into therapy3 or
analysis3 %or a long ti&e$ But that=s how I got into it$ 2nd then %inally there was a /ind o% a battle
o% &inds3 which was3 you could say3 trans%erenceF&y last ditch atte&pt to stay in &y &ind$
ulti&ately3 I surrendered and started to %eel the %eelings that I %elt %or &y analyst3 which were
%eelings I had not really %elt or owned up to in relationship to &y %ather$ 6nly then3 by /ind o%
going bac/Fyou could even say regressingFdid I start actually to %eel3 in a bodily sense$

!ob: Can you both tal/ about the i&portance o% childhood in 8reud=s sche&e o% thingsJ

"eon: Iou=ve lived your early years o% li%e with who& you=ve lived the&3 as you=ve
lived the&3 and a great &any patterns and habitual ways3 especially ways o% relating to others3
&ay be set in that ti&e3 &uch o% which you &ay have little or no &e&ory o% and &uch o% which
you=re not conscious o%$ It=s got to be o% crucial i&portance$ 8reud thought so and he and &any
o% his %ollowers would say the wor/ o% re&e&bering and beco&ing conscious o% what o% that
you=ve repressed is at the heart o% the wor/ o% psychoanalysis$ 2nd we can readily e9tend that to
the perinatal period and indeed3 bac/ across generations$ Bowever3 I don=t thin/ that necessarily
e9plains or deter&ines who or how you are$

!ob: I concur$

Ste#e: 6%ten the notion o% child develop&ent is &ista/en in that childhood is seen as
so&ething that has happened in the past$ This is not really the way we are with other people$
;hile chronologically we are adults3 we o%ten react to others as i% we were adolescents3 or even
in%ants with tantru&s and sul/ing$ But also we retain %ro& childhood the capacity %or a certain
play%ulness3 a certain seriousness3 a certain innocenceC all o% these things associated with a
childhood that has not been %ractured or bro/en$ This child #ithin us is crucial to doing good
wor/$ ;e can recover this child in therapy even though this child is o%ten lostC it has been
schooled out o% us3 or cultured out o% us$ So it=s not si&ply Aust to heal the bro/en child3 it=s to
recover our lost energetic child$

"eon: Right3 it=s %inding lost possibilities3 potential that was never actualised, or hardly
actualised3 such as the capacity to enAoy li%eC so&ething as basic as that$

!ob: Bow is that achieved in a conversation with so&eone you=re spending ti&e withJ

Ste#e: The conversations are conversations about conversations3 they=re not Aust
conversations as such$ Theyre relations about the #ay #e relate. Now the way we relate3 it turns
out at every &o&ent3 is always a cross+section3 al&ost li/e a holograph3 o% the way we are3 have
been and will be in our li%e$ 2nd so at any &o&ent3 %or e9a&ple3 there=s a &o&ent when one can
see a /ind o% hungry child who hasn=t ever had a good suc/3 and who &ight be getting a good
suc/ here and now %or the %irst ti&e3 by being with you$

!ob: That sounds very unconvincing to &e3 but carry on boys$

"eon: Let=s go bac/ to what I was saying about enAoy&ent3 but including under
%en+oy!ent the capacity to be very sad indeed3 to %eel and sense %ully3 to live one=s li%e3 to have a
sense that this li%e is ones o#n life to live. It can be an i&&ense advance %or so&eone to feel
their sufferin", and %or the %irst ti&e to %eel it as3 in so&e sense3 their o#n.

Ste#e: It &ay sound unconvincing but it &ay Aust be possible to put ourselves3 say
i&aginatively3 in the place o% a new+born$ Ronnie would o%ten invo/e this &etaphor' say at the
&o&ent o% your birth3 i% it was induced3 i% you had a %orceps delivery3 i% you were ripped %ro&
your &other and the u&bilical cord was i&&ediately cut$ This sets up a red light e&ergencyC you
gasp %or air3 a%ter having been used to breathing through the u&bilical cord$ Eye drops are put in
your eyes3 you are s&ac/ed on the botto&3 and so on$ In the %ace o% this overwhel&ing
e9perience one &ight retreat3 withdraw3 go into onesel%$ It=s possible that such ones3 ourselves3
have never actually co&e out %ro& that withdrawn &o&ent %ully$ The world then beco&es a
place that=s e9perienced as hostile3 as opposed to benign or welco&ing$ Bow do you reverse
thatJ Is it reversibleJ Could there be a #elco!in" !o!ent that has within it the capacity to turn
people around who=ve been turned away %ro& their %ellow &enJ I&agine wal/ing through li%e
al&ost li/e an auto&aton3 &erely going through the &otions3 and then actually %inding yoursel%
%or the %irst ti&e in your li%e being able to breathe freely, having a %ull breath3 breathing the air
and enAoying it$

!ob: 2re you being really serious SteveJ

Ste#e: The only di%%erence perhaps between sanity and &adness is that in &adness no+
one shares your delusional syste&3 and in sanity at least one other person shares it$ <o you need
&ore elaborating on thatJ ;hat is a delusional syste&J ;hat is e9perienceJ It=s a construct$ 6ur
so+called e9perience o% the present is always a re&e&bered oneC we always recategoriGe$ This is
based on the evidence o% conte&porary neuroscience$ 2ccording to a principle o% selection3 we
select through a synchronisation o% sight3 sound3 touch3 s&ell3 intellect3 language and words3
what we now haveFour e9perience$ That principle o% selection is reani&ated at every &o&ent in
a series o% categorisations which include our own sel%+understanding and our own sel%+
e9perience o% the @&e= that we have a greater or lesser sense o% at any given &o&ent$
2nd that changes %ro& &o&ent to &o&ent3 retrospectively, according to our categories3
which are the ones that we=ve established3 and new ones that we develop$ This is the hu&an
cultural being$ The hu&an cultural being isn=t a thing$ ;e can=t say o% e9perience3 or our
atte&pts to e9plain our e9perience3 that it is true or it isn=t true$ It=s so&ewhere in between$ It=s
cultural$ ;e do &a/e it up3 construct it, but we also can allow it to deconstruct it$ There are no
si&ple answers$

"eon: )elusion derives %ro& ludereFto playFso a delusion3 we &ight say3 is where the
play has been re&oved$ Now that needn=t be so3 there &ay be play%ul delusions$ There=s a
certain3 or rather an uncertain3 play in li%e between people3 when there=s an openness between
people3 and there=s a letting the other be3 and even ta/ing Aoy in the other=s play%ulness and Aoy$
But that gets lost %or &any o% us$ That=s not considered @psychotic=3 but it can involve
unnecessary and too rigid %ra&ing3 li&iting and categorising o% ourselves3 others and what can or
ought to go on between us$ 2nd that play3 and allowing &ore to be in play3 &ight be restored in a
relationship with another who actually has ti&e %or one3 where there=s a chance o% &a/ing space
and ti&e %or play3 and bringing ways o% %eeling3 thin/ing3 spea/ing and relating into play$ It=s a
%eature o% &ost delusions that so&ething=s %i9ed and not in play$ There=s a conviction that one=s
own way o% seeing the &atters at issue see&s convincingly3 &aybe oppressively3 to be the case$
There=s o%ten so&ething spot on but also right o%% in delusions3 so&ething distorted and
disguised interwoven with the truth it contains$ In therapy3 or in a setting where there=s an
openness to understanding and a responsible letting be3 this can begin to shi%t in a healthy
direction$

Ste#e: ;ell3 the play then that hasn=t been happening3 happens$ 6nce you get a taste o%
the honey o% playing3 you are able to &ove out into the world and play$ Deople who can play3
players3 %ind that a lot &ore o% the &oney strea& begins to %low in their direction$ This &eans
that they have &ore play in their econo&y$ Now is econo&y real or trueJ Is &oney realJ Deople
regard it so$ But what is itJ It=s a to/en3 a signi%ier3 o% people having ti&e %or other people3 o%
diverting libido or energy in the direction o% the people we have ti&e %or$ This is the principle o%
psycho.econo!ics which I learned about %ro& &y analyst and &entor Bugh Craw%ord$

"eon: I would be care%ul not to reduce &oney to a sy&bol o% people having ti&e %or
other peopleC that=s certainly o%ten not the case$

Ste#e: ;ell3 un%ortunately o% course it gets perverted3 and people then accu&ulate power
and &ight3 and cease then to have ti&e %or a real econo&y3 and they &ove then into a sy&bolic
econo&y$ ;hich again is a whole other issue o% capitalist societies3 which is beyond the scope o%
what we want to tal/ about$

!ob: 2ctually3 nothing is beyond the scope o% what we &ight well tal/ about$

Ste#e: There are certain people who ai& at accu&ulating &oney$ The reason co&&unis&
%ailed was because it was not a very good syste& o% creating wealth$ Iou can=t really distribute
wealth you don=t create3 and it turns out so&e people won=t create wealth i% they can=t
accu&ulate it$ So the best way o% distributing wealth is by earnin" it3 it see&s3 and in that way
you create wealth3 and there%ore you can distribute it3 and those who want to can accu&ulate it$
Money has its own logic$ It=s li/e a natural ele&ent3 li/e gas or water3 which %ills the container in
which it %inds itsel%$ Money see&s always to want to %ind the paths where it will then proli%erate
itsel%$ The logic o% &oney turns out to have very pernicious conse?uences3 %or e9a&ple' it
enslaves so&e people3 by reducing the value o% their contributions3 to the wealth+generation
process$ Cocoa+lea% pic/ers3 %or e9a&ple3 would have to wor/ ages to a%%ord a bo9 o% chocolates
produced %ro& the leaves they pic/$ Money goes to the value+addersFthe people who bo9 and
brand the chocolates produced$

!ob: Iou=ll both deny this3 o% course3 but I always %ind that underneath what you say
there are assu&ptions about what a so+called @nor&al= person is li/e$ Can you tal/ about thatJ

Ste#e: I don=t /now what a @nor&al= person is$ But let=s go bac/ to one point that Leon
&ade earlier about this whole idea o% co&paring therapy with prostitutes and prostitution$ I don=t
thin/ that we do try to satis%y people=s de&ands$ I thin/ actually the people who co&e with needs
and de&ands to be satis%ied are %rustrated3 so in a way we do the opposite o% what a prostitute
tries to do$ The reason we %rustrate3 or the reason I %rustrate3 is because de!ands kill desireFthe
&ore you de&and3 the less you=ll be satis%iedC the &ore that you thin/ that I need3 need3 need3
and I have to get3 get3 get3 the less you will actually enAoy$ <e&ands set up an in%lationary cycle$
So you=ll have &ore and &ore that will produce less and less o% what I would call what=s goodF
a %eeling o% wellness3 or har&ony$ So I would say i% you can shi%t people out o% need3 you can
then open the& upC you can open the& up to their desire$ Now whether you call that a nor& or
not3 I=& not sure$ I would never presu&e to /now what another person ought desire$ <esire is the
way that li%e e9presses itsel%$ I would never presu&e to /now how anyone should live their li%e3
apart %ro& not doing violence$ violence /ills desireC desire is al#ays a desire for an other
persons desire, %or being wanted by an other$ 6n the other hand3 need is deadening3 it /ills
desire3 it /ills the otherness o% the 6ther3 it is only sel%+see/ing$ Iet acting %ro& need rather than
desire is the nor&$

"eon: In%lation isn=t good %or the econo&y3 or so &ost econo&ists say$ 2nd in%lation isn=t
good %or the individual3 and %or the individual in relation to other individuals3 or %or the
co&&unity$
Econo!y co&es %ro& the Gree/ oikosFho&eFand no!os0lawFit=s the law o% the
ho&eC so we can spea/ about the law o% the ho&e3 and lin/ that to a /ind o% econo&y o% each o%
our lives$ ;e &ay thin/ we=re %unctioning econo&ically3 trying to accu&ulate and appropriate3
and all o% a sudden this econo&y gets to be a closed shop3 a closed syste&3 with little or no %ree
trade3 or co&&erce3 or intercourse with others$ ;e beco&e caught in a sel%+enclosed3 narcissistic
econo&y$ I thin/ we=re well o%% getting as %ree o% that as we can$ ;ith a lot o% wor/ andEor grace
or blessing3 we &ight approach that %reedo& but never %inally3 once and %or all3 reach it$ It=s an
in%inite tas/3 though a %ew3 such as Buddha and >esus3 are believed by so&e to have de%initively
arrived there$

I assu&e that pretty &uch everyone su%%ers3 and would locate the source o% &uch
su%%ering in the /ind o% attach&ents and aversions that people have in and with the world and3
particularly3 with one another$ I% so&eone is enclosed in a narcissistic econo&y3 that=s hell$ That
hell &ight have co&e about in a nu&ber o% ways$ I% one has had no e9perience o% a welco&e into
the world3 that tends to be hell$ I% one has not only not had a welco&e3 but has had lots o%
e9periences o% persecution3 or de&ands being &ade on one that one couldn=t possibly &eet3
that=s hell$ 2nd so on$

There=s a relationship between people being able to welco&e others3 and their having
received3 at so&e ti&e3 a %elt welco&e that &attered$ 2nd without so&e sense o% their li%e as
being their li%e3 with responsibilities3 privileges and obligations going along with that as their
li%e3 it=s going to be di%%icult to arrive at loving and being loved3 caring and being cared %or$

;e have to e9perience that we &ean so&ething to another3 that we &atter3 and to %eel that
others &atter and &ean so&ething to us3 i% we are going to %eel that this li%e has &eaning and is
worth living$ ;e &ight be or have been very deprived and da&aged3 but being heard and seen
and ac/nowledged and cared %or o%%ers a way out o% what is otherwise a living hell$ So&e people
&ay not even consider that love is a possibility in this world$ I thin/ it=s hell to go through li%e
li/e that$

!ob: @Love= &eaning what preciselyJ

"eon: Can we be precise about thatJ I don=t /now$ I% we go bac/ to Ronnie=s 3olitics of
E&perience, he had so&ething li/e a de%inition o% love$ Be wrote about letting the 6ther be3 with
concern and a%%ection3 so&ething li/e that$ That=s not a bad de%inition o% love$ Letting the 6ther
beC we were tal/ing the other day o% /elassenheit, or release&entFBeidegger spo/e o% this3
pic/ing up the ter& %ro& Meister Ec/hardt$ I thin/ o% /elassenheit as a letting be and letting the
6ther be$ That=s a ?uality o% love$

Ste#e: It=s also lettin" oneself be #hile lettin" others be. Ronnie was a good teacher o%
letting be$ Be let hi&sel% be3 and let others be$ Be didn=t lay heavy trips3 or do @nu&bers= on
people by &anipulating the& and controlling the&3 &ostly3 &ost o% the ti&e$

"eon: Carrying on then with love' so letting onesel% be and letting others be3 with careF
caritasFcare3 charity3 co&passion3 with philia, a"ape and all theseF

Ste#e: variationsF

"eon:Fpointers to what we=re tal/ing about$ ;ithout that li%e see&s to be terribly blea/$
2nd what di%%erence does it &a/eJ ;ell %or a start it &a/es the difference bet#een care and
indifference, and that &a/es a great big di%%erenceFa di%%erence that &a/es a di%%erenceFand
that=s one o% the big di%%erences that therapy can &a/e$ It can3 at its best3 &a/e a world o%
di%%erenceF&a/e %or a different #ay of bein" #ith others in the #orld.
Ste#e: Let &e also add the word inti!acy, because I thin/ o%ten we &ean inti&acy when
we spea/ o% love$ 2nd I thin/ that=s so&ething also that is proble&atic %or &any$ Bow you can
%ind inti&acy with another person involves being able to be both near and distant3 and negotiate
that at every &o&ent$ Bow to negotiate nearness and distance is so&ething that you can
discover within the therapeutic situation$

!ob: Can I Aust return to 8reudian theoryJ The cornerstone o% 8reud=s theory3 as %ar as
I=&= concerned3 is the potency o% se9uality and how that a%%ects everything else$ ;hat are your
thoughts about thatJ

"eon: The one /ind o% love I didn=t re%er to3 intentionally3 a %ew &inutes ago3 was erotic
love3 which see&s so o%ten3 i% not inevitably3 to engender %eelings li/e possessiveness3 Aealousy
and envy that li&it or inter%ere with brotherly and sisterly love and co&passion %or other others$
2nd I thin/ it=s so&ething other than 8reud=s se9ual libido3 at least as narrowly understood3 that
@&a/es the world go round=$ Steve and I have been reading in <errida3 and in >ohn Caputo=s
beauti%ul boo/ The 3rayers and Tears of 2ac$ues )errida, o% a passionF

Ste#e: %3assion for the i!possible0

"eon:F%or the @gi%t=3 passion %or goodness3 the passion %or Austice3 the passion o%E%or
hospitality$ 2re these any less i&portant than se9uality3 i% we=re going to &a/e those
distinctionsJ But we have to say what distinctions we=re &a/ing$

Ste#e: I thin/ that se9uality is %unda&ental$ Now I thin/ that what 8reud believed was
that everyone ought to e9perience or"as!, that is3 have a su%%iciently developed and healthy way
o% being in the world to be able to e9press onesel% to another person se9ually3 to enAoy the
ecstatic &o&ent with the& and lose one=s own sel%+consciousness$ Now that isn=t always
possible %or people3 so o%ten people &ista/e orgas& and co&ing3 which could be si&ply
so&ething that is &ore &asturbatory$ Iou can co&e without having orgas&$ 8reud thought that
se9uality could be a de%ence against inti&acy and orgas&ic se9ualityC that is3 people Au&p into
bed to avoid one another3 and personal relationship$ That=s a resistance to loving se9uality3 it=s
opposed to inti&acy and e9pressing that inti&acy ulti&atelyFhaving the ulti!acy of an
inti!acyFthrough an orgas&ic relationship3 which 8reud thought was healthy$ It=s healthy %or
hu&ans to be able to be with one another3 in a loving+se9ual relationship with each other$

"eon: Sure3 but orgas&3 whether in a loving relationship or not3 is not the only way that
people have %ound3 through the &illennia3 to %orget the&selves3 their egoic selves3 with all its
craving and grasping3 its sel%ishness in the worst sense o% the word$ I=& tal/ing about the real
possibility o% that being suspended3 or brac/eted3 or put out o% action3 or at least on the bac/
burner3 at least te&porarily$

;hat=s ta/en to be or thought o% as se9ual %ul%il&ent3 however it=s arrived at3 is o%ten
i&poverished relative to the desire$ It=s o%ten divorced %ro& love$ I would argue that what=s as
%unda&ental as se9uality3 and &ore i&portant %or hu&an/ind at this Auncture3 at this point in our
story3 than what=s co&&only ta/en to be se9ual %ul%il&ent3 is this &atter o% being able to
transcend onesel%3 get as %ree as one can o% the whole econo&y o% sel%3 o% narcissis&$

;e need to %ind ways o% trans%or&ing &ore o% our libido into so&ething not pri&arily in
the service o% either reproduction or pleasure but3 rather into the enAoy&ent o% %inding and
realising ways o% co&passion %or and openness and co.operation with our neighbours and %ellow
inhabitants o% the planet$
The release o% orgas&3 that sort o% se9ual /elassenheit, the releasing and letting be and
letting the 6ther be in se9ual intercourse3 in loving intercourse especially3 is bliss%ul and
wonder%ul3 and3 it &ust be said3 rare3 but it=s certainly not the only way o% arriving at release&ent
%ro& being i&prisoned in onesel%$ 2nd that se9ual release is usually short+lived and calls %orth all
sorts o% appropriating and sel%+centred desires$

So I would say that what=s &ost @%unda&ental=Fthough I realise we haven=t ta/en
enough care to say how we=re using that ter&Fisn=t se9uality3 but that possibility o%
transcendence$

Ste#e: Can I Aust add3 be%ore we go on' yes3 and no3 because yes3 o% course there are other
ways3 but I=d say that it=s a continuu&3 and Dlato already &apped out that Eros is not Aust the
Eros o% the love that one has between one and another3 that is a version o% Eros$ But Eros is also
broader3 and I thin/ 8reud was tal/ing about Eros in the Dlatonic sense o% the %ull range o% Eros3
which ulti&ately has to do with the love o% the Good3 or the love o% the Truth3 or the love o%
Beauty3 o%ten %ound in love relationships with one 6ther3 but also with other 6thers3 the
collective 6thers3 our %ellow hu&an beings$

!ob: Leon3 can you e9pandJ

"eon: Be%ore I %ind what I want to say3 I wonder i% you Bob3 and you Steve3 can answer3
brie%ly i% possible3 these two ?uestions$ Bob3 can you say &ore o% what you &eant when you
as/ed us about se9uality in 8reud3 and what you &ean by se9ualityJ 2nd Steve3 can you say
what you &ean by %unda&ental3 when you say se9uality is %unda&ental3 and i% that=s
%unda&ental3 what else3 i% anything3 is %unda&ental %or you in that sa&e wayJ ;e shouldn=t s/ip
over de%ining what we=re discussing$ So %irst Bob$

!ob: 2 schis&$ I &ean &y e9perience o% psychotherapy is as a patient3 and also co&es
%ro& being a psychiatric social wor/er3 and %ro& the %act that all &y li%e people have wanted to
tell &e their secrets$ Iou see there is this schis& between 8reud3 where there=s this endless tal/
about se9uality3 and then a psychotherapeutic e9perience3 where se9 is the least thing on &y
brain3 either as a therapist3 or as a patient3 and what I really tal/ about3 and what I listen to3 is
about people Aust %eeling unloved$ It=s not se9 that they want3 it=s loveF

"eon: Than/ you3 that clari%ies where you were co&ing %ro& with your ?uestion$

Ste#e: Iou see I thin/ that whatever it is that draws people close to one another %or a
caress3 whether that be an actual physical caress3 or a verbal caress3 by actually being in the
space o% a sort o% discourse or intercourse, is se9ual3 and that=s what I &ean by %unda&ental$
There is nothing other than se9uality in a way$

!ob: That=s e9tending the de%inition too %arF

"eon: >ust to clari%y what you=re saying3 are you saying that you thin/ when Steve
i&plies that any /ind o% intercourse is se9ual3 that you don=t buy thatJ

!ob: I don=t buy that3 whatsoever$

"eon: Right$

Ste#e: ;ell I thin/ 8reud did thin/ that3 and I thin/ I would agree with 8reud$

!ob: I thin/ 8reud was e&bedded in a physically+based idea o% loveFironically enough
FI thin/ he had very little i&agination$ I don=t thin/ he had the idea o% a spiritual co&passionate
loving &ind at all$
"eon: Iou don=t thin/ 8reud had &uch i&agination3 that he wasn=t on about love3 the
way you hear hi& being on about se9C but one can be loving without having &uch o% an
i&agination$

Ste#e: Can I disagree with BobJ I &a/e a distinction between the e9oteric 8reud3 the
8reud who spo/e as a &an o% the victorian age3 to victorians3 who had to pass &uster in order to
earn a living as a &edical doctor and scientistF

"eon:FNot only a &an o% his ti&es in Nienna3 but also a >ew in a Catholic and anti+
Se&itic viennaF

Ste#e: 2nd the esoteric 8reud3 the hidden 8reud3 the 8reud who developed a hidden3 and
I thin/ &ystical3 practice based on the Sohar3 on the >ewish &ystical tradition$ So listening
attentively to another person3 and reading that other person3 and interpreting that other person3 is
not a &illion &iles away %ro& the passion o% reading the Torah3 and the love %or which one has
towards one=s godC one can see the divine in each and every other person$ Now that love is not
so&ething that one can si&ply @hive o%%= as spiritualC i% it=s passionate3 it=s also erotic$ There=s a
charge3 an energy3 and a deep %low that has to happen$

!ob: Sorry3 perhaps I=& totally &isunderstanding this3 but I thin/ you can have a passion
and it can be totally non+se9ualFLpausesMF6ne o% the &ost &oving boo/s I=ve read recently is
;illia& Styron=s )arkness 5isible, which is his s&all &e&oir o% eighty pages concerning his
&anic depression$ It starts when he was about to get a literary award in Daris3 and he realises he
si&ply can=t cope any longer$ 2nd then he tal/s about when he was seriously conte&plating
co&&itting suicide3 and because he=s a novelist he e9plains this very beauti%ully3 and there is this
incredible passage where he is on the verge o% ta/ing an overdose$ Be said three things stopped
hi& %ro& doing so' he lived in a house with wooden %loorboards3 with no carpets3 and he said he
would not be able to bear the thought o% never hearing his dog running through the house again$
Secondly3 he wouldn=t be able to cope with never being able to hear the sound o% his
grandchildren=s little bare %eet running on the %loorboards$ Thirdly3 he thought he would be
e9cruciatingly saddened at never hearing beauti%ul classical &usic li/e Brah&s= Alto 6hapsody. I
re%use to accept the idea that when I %eel passionate and intense a%ter hearing so&e &usic %ro&3
say3 Bildegarde von Bingen=s (eather on the 7reath of /od, I a& having an erotic e9perienceH I
&ean I a& against 8reudian %ascists who say things li/e @everything is erotic=$ ;ell3 it isn=tH
Listening to von Bingen=s &usic is a great e9istential3 spiritual and e&otional sensation3 and it
has nothing to do with erotica$

"eon: I don=t ?uite agree with Steve3 who says that all passion is se9ual3 though as I was
alluding to earlier3 desires and passions %or what is &ore @spiritual= or @ethical= &ay well use the
sa&e @pathways= as se9ual desire and attach&ent$ 8reud would call this the subli&ation o% se9ual
desire3 or a derivative o% se9ual desire$ 6n the other hand3 I can=t agree with you when you tal/
about so&e e9periences being totally devoid o% se9 or se9uality or o% any physical aspect$ I &ean
we are e&bodied3 se9ualised3 se9ed beings3 so nothing can be entirely separate %ro& that3 nothing
can be said to be entirely devoid o% it or separate %ro& it$ That is not to say however3 that all
passion is se9ual3 because that is li/eFwhat would you call itJ 2T

Ste#e: ReductionF

"eon: I &ean it=s Aust sel%+re%erentialC you=re saying all passion is se9ual3 but passion is
lin/ed to passivity and su%%ering3 and pathos3 and all hu&an su%%ering is su%%ered by e&bodied3
se9ualised beings$ But that does not &ean that all su%%ering is %unda&entally and pri&arily
se9ual$
!ob: Iou two are older than I a&3 &ore e9perienced and certainly wiser$ Iou spend ti&e
thin/ing about these things and about yourselves and other peopleF

"eon: ;e are older than you$ No contest$ ;hether we are wiser is a ?uestion$ ;hat do
we &ean by wisdo&J

!ob: Let &e give you an e9a&ple that &ay help$ 6nce in New Ior/3 I was lying on a bed
in a hotel roo&3 and on the Manhattan Cable Service was a channel devoted solely to an
understanding o% the Tibetan 7ook of the )ead. This was a twenty+%our hour cable channel$ I
guess hardly anyone subscribed to itFhowever$ The participants Aust sat aroundC there would be
a static ca&era3 there would be no &oves3 dissolves3 anything3 Aust a little ca&era in a roo&3 and
guys would tal/ about the Tibetan 7ook of the )ead. ;ell3 there was a guy on there who& they
occasionally captioned with a telephone nu&ber$ Be was ;elsh3 and was very interesting$ So I
rang hi& up later that day3 and he was an astrologer+cu&+devotee o% the <ivine Light Mission$
;ell I went to see hi&3 and he gave &e this e9traordinary /ind o% psychic reading3 where he /ept
saying QI see blood3 I see bloodR$ 2nd then when I went ho&e to England3 I bro/e &y bac/ in a
car accident3 nearly died3 and there was a lot o% blood around$ But anyway3 while I was in New
Ior/ he said to &e QIou need so&e rebirthingR$ So he ca&e to &y hotel roo&3 &ade &e lie on
the %loor3 and we started a special %or& o% breathing$ 2nd eventually I had the only &o&ent in
&y whole li%e I can honestly say was truly Aoyous$ I haven=t had it since and I=d never had it
be%ore3 and it was the %irst ti&e I %elt separated and distinct %ro& &y body$ I %elt as though I was
going down an incredibly long tunnel %ollowing a blue light3 and I was cryingFsaying that I did
not want to return$ 2nd he /ept spea/ing nicely to &e3 saying' QIou have to returnR$ That was an
e9perience which was not erotic3 and it was not tied to &y body$ 6n the contrary3 I genuinely %elt
out o% &y body$ 2nd3 actually3 to an e9tent3 out o% &y &ind$
Ste#e: I don=t /now that we really disagree3 because what I=& trying to say about what I
thin/ that 8reud was on to3 in his tal/ o% se9uality3 was that we have a very restricted notion o%
what we thin/ se9 &eans$ ;hat I thin/ he discovered is that desire can really be separated %ro&
its genital e9pression$ It can attach itsel% then to a whole range o% di%%erent obAects$ This is the
&eaning o% obAect relations$ So what he was loo/ing %or was a uni%ied theory o% brain+&ind3 and
relation3 so that everything so&ehow wasn=t so divided into this &ind+body dichoto&y$ ;e
debate' is it the &indJ Is it the bodyJ Is it this %acet or that %acetJ But it=s not about parts or part
obAects$ 8reud is on about the whole o% se9uality i&plicated in every aspect o% li%e=s continuu&$
Now that continuu! of love is e!bodied, bodies %orth as soulFpsyche$ Birth3 or @rebirthing=3 is
e9perienced in the e9panded pre"nant !o!entas ecstatic and se9ual$ It=s not an either+or$ I=& not
trying to put it in a cupboard when I say the se9ual is %unda&ental3 I=& trying to e9pand it$ But
not to e9pand it to the point that it co&pletely loses its speci%icityC when we /now how to
connect neuro+physiological discourse with e9periential pheno&enological discourse3 the
language o% obAectivity with the language o% subAectivity3 we will have a better idea o% what we
are trying to tal/ about$

"eon: Iour story re&inds &e o% so&ething that happened to &e$ ;ith so&e si&ilarities
and di%%erences to your story3 about this rebirthing3 ecstatic3 out+o%+the body e9perience3 which
sounds a lot li/e near+death e9periences that so&e people have$ The story I=ll tell is about
so&ething that I can=t even call an @e9perience= without ?uali%ying it in so&e way3 because to
spea/ o% e9perience there has to be one who e9periences3 so&ething e9perienced and
e9periencingF

Ste#e: SubAect and obAectF

"eon: 2nd an e9periencing$ 6ne can get around that3 I suppose3 by tal/ing about non+
dual e9perience3 as Buddhist te9ts do3 or putting ?uotation &ar/s around e9perience$ This story
goes bac/ to the #.("s3 to a visit I &ade to the States$ I had Aust co&e down %ro& vancouver
where I=d convened a wor/shop with 2ndrew 8eld&ar3 and I was visiting a %riend in Cali%ornia$ I
hadn=t slept in two nights when I got there3 and was very tired$ ;hen I got there it was close to
&idnight3 and I was sitting around with a bunch o% people that were staying over %or a holiday
wee/end$ My %riend3 a distinguished pro%essor3 as/ed &e i% I would li/e to ta/e so&e LS<$ 4ntil
then3 any ti&e I=d ta/en acid3 which I had done ?uite a bit in the si9ties and early seventies3 I=d
always planned it in advance3 and had been pretty care%ul about when I too/ it3 who I too/ it
with3 and having things set up so that they were so&ewhat in &y control3 so that I wouldn=t have
to be going so&ewhere i% I didn=t want to3 that sort o% thing$ So he said Q;ould you li/e so&e
acidJR right then3 and I said QI don=t /now3 let &e thin/ about itR3 and I thought about it %or only
a &inute or two3 and said QIesR and we both too/ so&e$ The other people there gradually went
their own ways and then there was Aust &y %riend and I le%t3 and he put on Bandel=s ,essiah on
the record player3 a stac/ o% the old (- rp&s$ 2nd at one point3 I=& sitting across the roo& %ro&
hi& and he is very &oved by the piece3 and he says QListen to that3 listen to that3 that=s God
spea/ingHR 2nd he /ept repeating this3 QThat=s God spea/ingH That=s God spea/ingHR and he was
really &oved3 and I heard &ysel% saying at so&e point Q;ell3 then3 why don=t you shut up and
listenHR 2nd he was very nice about it$ Be said Q8ineR3 and he shut up$ But I was a bit irritated3 so
I went out o% the roo& into the garden$ There was a big garden3 with a swi&&ing pool3 and I
wal/ed around the pool and cooled o%%$ ;hen I ca&e bac/ in the house3 &y %riend was asleep on
the %loor3 snoring3 and the BalleluAah chorus ca&e on$ Now3 the reason I say I can=t call what I=&
about to describe as an e9perience3 without ?uali%ying that so&ehow3 is because any sense o%
@&e=3 or consciousness o% sel%3 was gone$ I wasn=t unconscious3 but there was a &o&ent where I
%elt &ysel% e&erging %ro& a non+distinction3 well3 %ro& non+distinction$ I had been at one with
the &usic3 with the BalleluAah3 which I was ?uite aware o%3 and o% the %eeling o% what the
&eaning o% BalleluAah was Opraise the LordP3 with the subli&e beauty o% the &usic3 and I was
aware o% it all with every cell o% &y body$ The &usic was coursing through &y @body&ind= and it
was not di%%erent3 it was %ine3 it was &ost e9?uisite$ But I beca&e aware o% this as I was
e&erging %ro& it3 bac/ into a world o% e9perienced distinctions$ 2nd then there was this great
sadness3 and the great sadness was that I /new3 in that &o&ent3 that I would %orget that$ 2nd I
/new that I wouldn=t %orget it to be able to tell it3 li/e I=& telling it now3 as so&ething that had
happened3 but the sadness was that that non+distinction and that coursing o% body&ind+&usic+
spirit would not3 could not be re&e&bered or described$ ;hat was &ost e9?uisite and elusive
could only be alluded to$ I have a passion to live with that order o% @e9perience= a possibility3 or
perhaps it=s really an i&possibility3 as it=s not in @&y= power3 or an @Oi&Ppossibility=$ Now that
was very di%%erent %ro& what you were describing3 because this was an ecstatic &o&ent3 but was
not at all an out+o%+the+body e9perience3 and I can=t even say it was out o% &y &ind3 it was
si&ply a non+distinction3 a /ind o% @&ystical union=3 but it wasn=t out o% the body$ Re&e&bering
Oor re+&e&beringP that3 helped see &e through so&e pretty blea/ ti&es$ I had %elt &ysel% %airly
dise&bodied a good part o% &y li%e$ But that3 at any rate3 was at least a gli&pse o% e&bodi&ent3
e9?uisite e&bodi&ent$ So I=& interested in you saying that your greatest Aoy was this out+o%+the+
body e9perience3 but it=s also possible to e9perience great3 e9?uisite Aoy and beyond3 beyond Aoy
and beyond @&y= @e9perience=3 in that case through the action and e%%ects o% a drug3 @in= your
body as well3 or through the vehicle o% the body3 which &ay not even have the ?uality3 certainly
not the progra&&ed ?uality3 o% being your own$ It=s possible to enAoy being in the body but not
li&ited by it3 beyond progra&&ed e9perience3 as a part o% a vast inter+coursing$
Ste#e: There=s been an obAection to seeing se9uality as %unda&entalFwhat about seeing
ti&e as %unda&entalJ ;hat i% ti&e is se9ual in so&e %unda&ental wayFis ecstaticJ Derhaps
what we are tal/ing about is an ecstatic &o&ent in relation to ti&eJ

!ob: Let &e Aust add that your assu&ption that ecstasy is necessarily a se9ual thing is not
the way I loo/ at it at all$ ;hen I see Su%is whirling and dancing3 I don=t thin/ it=s se9ual
whatsoever3 but there=s no doubt they=re ecstatic$

"eon: 2nd the @e9perience= that really was not an e9perience3 or was a non+dual
e9perience3 where %or so&e ti&eless &o&ent there was no sense o% &e as separate %ro& the rest
o% this @suchness= that we=re part o%3 certainly did not see& erotic in the usual sense o% the word$

Ste#e: 2nd I suppose &aybe I=& stretching it3 but to &e language also is always se9ual
because it always co&es %ro& the body$ ;e=re always oriented' every single word always in
so&e sense goes bac/ to roots in a bodily e9perience3 and the body is originally pleasureE se9ual
centred$

"eon: 2nd I have to ac/nowledge that the language I=& using veers toward validating
what you3 with 8reud3 are saying3 i% we ac/nowledge that we=re tal/ing about an erotics largely
%reed o% the burden o% sel%ishness and %ro& non+vital progra&&ing and conditioning$
CHAPTER THREE

PHENO(ENO"O)*CA" AN&
E+*STENT*A" THERAPY

Gans and Redler are well+/nown %or their interest in pheno&enological+e9istential
approaches to philosophy and therapy$ In these conversations they discuss the strengths o% the
e9istentialist approach$ 2lso they ru&inate over the value o% training$

!ob: 6ne o% the things that I=& interested in is this' how &uch does the person who
co&es to you have to wor/ on the&selves in order to achieve what they and &aybe you see as a
satis%actory outco&eJ

Ste#e: I tell prospective clients' only you can do it, but you cant do it alone. The wor/ is
down to the client whose li%e has to be reclai&ed in order to live &ore %ully$ But because therapy
is a relation about the way you relate to others3 the world3 and to yoursel%3 it=s a relation about
your relationships$ It=s up to &e to try to help you to see better what you=re blinded to3 or what
are your blind spots$ Iou &ay well be unaware o% how &uch you are sabotaging or constricting
your li%e3 how you prevent yoursel% %ro& living a &ore %ull enAoyable and responsible li%e$

"eon: 2t the outset o% therapy we=re not necessarily wor/ing together$ Darado9ically3
there=s both less and &ore wor/ing together towards the end o% therapy$

Ste#e: I=d Aust li/e to put in an addendu&$ 6ne o% the ways that I wor/ is by not doing$
There=s always the danger that you &ight want to Au&p in %or so&ebody$ Then rather than giving
the& so&ething3 you=re ta/ing so&ething away %ro& the&$

"eon: It &ight be surprising to so&e people that that=s wor/3 that a @not+doing= is a wor/$
It wouldn=t be so surprising to Sen &on/s or others who=ve been practising Sa+Gen3 or related
practices$ There=s a sense in which they=re practising a @not+doing=$ Bere in the ;est it wouldn=t
be at all surprising to e9perienced teachers o% the 2le9ander techni?ue3 li/e ;alter Carrington3
who3 in his &id eighties3 continues practising and teaching a /ind o% @not+doing=3 which is
de%initely a wor/$ In this case the wor/ that 2le9ander introduced hi& to is helping people to
gain what in 2le9ander=s ter&s was a better use o% the&selves3 by learning to stop doing so&e
habitual and ?uite destructive things3 li/e the doing o% pulling the head bac/ by contracting and
shortening the nec/ &uscles when one is &oving3 which one has not only no need to do3 but is
adversely a%%ecting one=s posture3 &ove&ents3 energy3 health and well+being$ The @not+doing=
that a teacher is trying to convey to the pupil is related to the possibility o% being able to choose3
to pause3 thin/ and consider the choice that one has o% doing or not doing3 and perhaps by not
any longer contracting the nec/ &uscles3 being able to allow the organis& to attain its %ull
possibilities o% its stature3 %or a lengthening and widening to ta/e place in the body3 which allows
%or breathing &ore deeply and %reely and %or &ore e%%icient3 easier contractions o% &uscles'
&uscles able to contract %ro& their %ull3 rather than chronically shortened3 contracted length$
Now how it this not.doin" conveyedJ The teacher conveys it to the pupil partly through verbal
instructions3 such as QI don=t want you to do anythingR$ But what can you do with thatJH It
usually ta/es ?uite so&e ti&e to realise the &eaning o% that3 with one=s entire being$ But &ore
i&portant than any verbal instructions or re?uests is what the teacher conveys through his or her
hands$ The hands o% the 2le9ander teacher are sensing what=s going on with the other person$
But that sensing and co&&unicating can=t be going on without the teacher being able to wor/ on
hi& or hersel%3 by releasing and not doing$ So I thin/ there &ight well be an interesting parallel
there between that not+doing in 2le9ander wor/ and the /ind o% not+doing that=s necessary in
therapy$ Dractitioners o% both %ind3 or ought to %ind3 s/il%ul &eans o% not doing to help people
release3 unwind3 breathe %reely and beco&e &ore attuned3 in touch and connected within
the&selves and to others in a &ore open world o% relationships$ That not.doin" is wor/$ It ta/es
ti&e3 it ta/es energy to learn it$ But3 o% course3 it releases ener"y.

!ob: Iou=re both co&ing %ro& a tradition which is connected with Ronnie Laing and the
Dhiladelphia 2ssociation OD2P$ 6ne o% the things that I read which struc/ &e very &uch was the
paper Ronnie wrote in #.013 called I thin/ @Intervention in 8a&ily Situations=3 in which he tal/s
all about not only &others and %athers but grand%athers and great+grand%athers3 and so+on and so+
%orth$ <o you ta/e %a&ily historiesJ

"eon: ;hen so&eone co&es to see &e I don=t necessarily as/ the& ?uestions about their
%a&ily3 or their %a&ily history3 but will ta/e the lead %ro& the& in in?uiring into so&ething that
they bring up$ I=& interested in their sense o% what the %a&ily history is3 on their reading o% the
%a&ily history3 and how it co&pares and contrasts with others= stories o% the %a&ily$ 2 downside
o% ta/ing a history is that one &ight then be too bound to thin/ing in ter&s o% that history3 which
al&ost certainly has had an in%luence on this person=s li%e3 but is only one way o% reading or
understanding that li%e$ But people do o%ten see& to be repeating so&ething that has been going
on in a %a&ily3 across generational lines3 %or so&e ti&e$

Ste#e: @Ta/ing a history= would be &ore o% an intervention than I would want to &a/e$ It
would a&ount to s/ewing the conversation to a repeat o% an o%%icial version o% a story that clients
have told the&selves and others about the&selves$ ;hat I=d rather do is listen$ ;hat e&erges is
what I re%er to as @nu&bers=$ @Nu&bers= are stereotypical gestures3 characteristics and ways o%
relating to others that are a bit li/e %a&ily %eaturesC they o%ten are e&bedded in %a&ilies3 and
people pic/ the& up and learn the& through repeating the gestures that they=ve been
indoctrinated into or induced into or initiated into$ 2nd people aren=t aware that these patterns
can actually turn people o%%3 or that they are turned+o%%3 or that they are cut+o%%3 or that they are
even violent$ 2llowing those to e&erge and then to %ollow the& bac/ to their sources3 this is the
stu%% o% the therapeutic process$ I &ight as/3 Q;hen did you %irst start pic/ing this particular bit
o% behavioural gesture Onu&berP upJR 2nd then it turns out %ather and &other both did this
nu&ber on &y client$ 8or instance3 every ti&e a certain subAect ca&e up in the %a&ily3 everyone
cringedFli/e se9$ Then every ti&e the thought o% se9 ca&e up there=s an e&barrassed /ind o%
withdrawing3 a &ani%est pelvic tilt$ These nu&bers are a &elody that is played out on the person$
The person is al&ost possessed by the phanto!s o% their %a&ily=s nu&bers$ These phanto&s have
to be e9orcised$ Clients bring their %a&ily into the therapy roo& when they do their nu&bers3 so I
don=t need to ta/e a %a&ily history$ Their story is being said and told by the& each &o&ent o%
their therapy$ 6ur lives are holographic$ Every instance3 every gesture shows so&ething o% the
whole history o% our being$

"eon: 2nd one is being inserted by the other into the %a&ily dra&a in the way they bring
their %a&ily into the roo&3 and the way this co&es across through @trans%erence=C that is3 I &ight
well be put into the position o% this or that %a&ily &e&ber3 or so&e co&bination o% %a&ily
&e&bers3 or so&e co&bination o% the person=s relationship with di%%erent %a&ily &e&bers3 in
ter&s o% what=s going on between us$ 6r we &ight say %a&ily dra&as include the presence o%
&any ghosts3 phanto&s and other /inds o% obstacles to our &eeting each other &ore directly3
si&ply and wholeheartedly$

Ste#e: It=s al&ost certainly that$ Iou will %ind yoursel% in the position o% %ather3 &other3
sibling at di%%erent ti&es$

!ob: Is this the way that you would begin to de%ine an e9istential approachJ That the
here+and+now is &uch &ore i&portant than the legacy o% the pastJ

Ste#e: E9istence is really te&poral3 and te&porality has to do both with the past and the
present3 but e&phasises the %uture$ In a positivistic approach we are deter&ined3 and there%ore
al&ost &echanically are unwinding ourselves3 according to so&e predestined &echanis&$ The
starting point that I would adopt is that the %uture is open3 it=s potential3 it=s there to be realised$
Bowever3 %actors are disrupting that3 and that can be &ade &ani%est in each and every present
&o&ent$ The &o&ent is pre"nant with a past that &ay be holding one bac/3 by what one is
holding onto3 but also by intentions3 what people want3 what their desires are3 or rather their
inability to be in touch with their desires3 %or the %uture$

"eon: Going bac/ to trans%erence3 and lin/ing it to your ne9t ?uestion3 and Steve=s
response to it3 trans%erence3 as we=ve said be%ore3 involves a carrying or a %errying across o%
so&ething %ro& other ti&es and places and conte9ts3 into the roo&3 thus getting in the way o% a
&ore i&&ediate and less laden way o% relating to each other$ Now in ter&s o% e9istential thought3
or an e9istential approach3 we=re creatures that are un%olding in ti&e$ ;e=re un%olding in being+
ti&e3 &oving on towards so&ething3 and %or the sa/e o% so&ething$ 2nd so&ething is at sta/e %or
us in how we=re un%olding3 &oving and being &oved$

Ste#e: Can I Aust say so&ething about the word @e9istence=3 Aust as a %ootnote to thisJ
@e/+= is usually translated as ecstatic3 standing outsideFsistare is to standFso one is always in
so&e sense outside onesel%3 in the world$ @The world= is not the planet or the earth3 the world is
really our involve&ent in our relationships$ E9istential psychotherapy is an invocation3 and a
provocation %or people to stand outside in the open o% @the truth=3 by telling the truth$ 2nd that
see&s to be so&ething o% the way this wor/s3 and so&ething o% what I thin/ Ronnie was
dedicated towardFa standin" outside in the open of the truth.

"eon: 2nd an invocation and provocation call to &ind a call or a calling3 and the call %or
help in therapy usually starts with a telephone call that so&eone &a/es$ There=s an i&plicit call
to be heard3 and it see&s to be our calling to hear and respond to that call3 and to issue another
call3 in the %or&less %or& o% a welco&e and an invitation3 an invitation to that person who is
withdrawn in hi&sel% or hersel%3 to co&e out3 co&e into the roo&3 an invitation to play3 to &eet
each other$ It=s a calling away %ro& that withdrawn place3 and a calling into play o% what=s
re&ained out o% play3 and a calling %orth o% one=s possibilities3 and openness to what &ay not
even be one=s possibilities3 to be here now and to &ove3 &ove into a %uture$ It=s a calling and
invitation to allow this un%olding o% being+ti&e to happen3 in a &ore ethical3 &ore grace%ul3 &ore
lively and alive3 &ore co&passionate and wise way than the way it=s been happening when
so&eone=s been stuc/ in that withdrawn space$ So3 invocation calls across di%%erent registers$

Ste#e: The e9istentialists are certainly very &uch the tradition and starting point that we
are &oving %ro& to develop a &ore ethically oriented practice. I thin/ that a way o% putting that
&ight be that rather than the sel% as the centre o% our concern3 it=s the between &ysel% and the
other person that is the centre3 and so this is latent3 it=s always in the bac/ground o% the
e9istential3 but we=re trying to &a/e it &ore e9plicit$

"eon: It=s not Aust &oving %ro& the sel% as centre to the between as centre3 but it=s de+
centring$

Ste#e: ;ell that would be de+centring the centreF

"eon: IeahF

Ste#e: I realised when I said centre3 there=s a proble& with that becauseF

"eon: There=s not a centreF

Ste#e: There=s not a centre$

"eon: No3 you &ight say that what we=re on about is so&ething eccentric3 that &aybe
there=s so&ething eccentric about our approach$ It=s certainly so&ething eccentric in the sense o%
decentring3 and o% a di%%erent way$ Derhaps the di%%erence could be epito&ised3 too3 in ter&s o% an
approach that is not centripetal3 not going towards &e3 but centri%ugal3 going away %ro& &e3
away %ro& sel%+centred &e3 outward towards the 6ther$ This is so&ething we have to return to$

!ob: Ies o% course$ ;hen do you lose patience with so&eone in therapyJ

Ste#e: I can give an illustration o% so&eone who& I=ve Aust seen %or the %irst ti&e who3 in
his own words3 was saying he=d been /ic/ed out by his last therapist3 a%ter %ive years3 and he
clai&ed that he had overwhel&ed his therapist$ Be wanted his therapist to change his way o%
tal/ing$ Bis therapist3 he %elt3 was tal/ing in a language that was not e%%ective or in tune with
what he could stand3 and he wanted the therapist to unlearn his way o% doing therapy3 and he
couldn=t re&ain in therapy unless the therapist was willing to start over and relearn what he was
doing$ I %ind this %ascinating because I don=t %eel &ysel% wedded to any position that I then %eel
I=d have to unlearn3 so I=& grate%ul to be able to learn %ro& hi& how I could be o% any help to
understand what it is that he=s on about$ Eventually though it=s probable that we will loc/ horns
to the point where it see&s already ?uite clear that he needs to sabotage hi&sel%3 and sabotage
any opportunity o% a hand that=s e9tended to welco&e hi&3 that is held out to hi&3 as a /ind o%
pattern o% his li%e story$ Be under&ines every atte&pt to get hi& out o% this syndro&e$ Now to
&e this is actually very interesting3 because it=s a very di%%icult knot that he=s in and I=& on %or
getting caught up in it$ I don=t @lose patience=3 rather I get energised i% I %eel I=& doing the best
Aob that I=& able to do3 in the actual &o&ent o% doing it$ So rather than %eeling depleted3 I %eel
energised i% I=& doing all right$ I only %eel depleted when I &a/e &ista/es$ I &ade a &ista/e
with hi& %or e9a&ple3 I sounded a wrong note3 and he so to spea/ bashed &e over the head %or
having done itFcalling so&ebody I didn=t /now by his %irst na&e$ 8or hi& that was a discord3
and I appreciated the opportunity to stand corrected by hi&$

"eon: ;hen I get i&patient in a session3 i&patient with so&eone or with so&e way the
other person is3 that=s usually &y proble&$ I=ve got %irst responsibility to try and understand
what=s going on between us$ My i&patience probably indicates that I haven=t been able to tune
in3 understand and articulate so&ething in response$ So it=s an opportunity that should not be
s?uandered$ I &ight use that opportunity by saying so&ething about how I=& %eeling3 i% that
see&s ti&ely3 and wonder aloud what this &ight be about3 con%essing that I don=t /now3 but
supposing that while it=s got so&ething to do with &e3 it probably also has so&ething to do with
the 6ther and what=s going on between us$ It &ay be a li&itation o% &ine3 but I don=t tend to give
up on anybody$

!ob: But presu&ably there &ust be no undue pressure on you to /eep seeing people
si&ply because o% a need to generate inco&eJ

"eon: That=s right$

!ob: Nevertheless3 you &ight also be thin/ing Q;ell3 nothing see&s to be going on3 but
they see& to be happy to co&e and spend %i%ty &inutes with &e3 why notJR

Ste#e: Being patient &eans to be passive3 and that &eans to su%%er3 to have so&ething
done to you$ In so&e sense the patient is patient3 because they=re not an agent or active3 able to
do$ Now a very e9tre&e e9a&ple o% that situation is what o%ten gets called @obsessional=$ I don=t
particularly li/e these labels but I thin/ so&eti&es a shorthand is use%ul$ Now that type o%
behaviour is o%ten being passive to the point o% being li/e a Go&bie or a wal/ing corpse$ Because
o% being a%raid to die3 these patients are already dead in the&selves$ 2nd they=re there to wait %or
you to die$ They co&e to prove that they can survive you3 al&ost li/e staring you down$ They=re
there waiting3 and they=re not going to change until you dieFthat=s the only way they will %eel
released$ Now the process that we engage in enlivens this person3 breathes so&e li%e into this
person=s li%e$ But your ?uestion was about &oney and the te&ptation to Aust go along with the
/ind o% show$ Li/e allowing the client to go on and on as i% you were o%%ering a vanity press$
;ell o% course one isn=t always aware about how these changes wor/3 and o%ten there are periods
o% ti&e when it doesn=t loo/ as though there=s really very &uch happening in the way o% any
change$ But o% course it=s a ?uestion o% therapeutic a&bition and e9pectation3 which I try and
avoid$ 8irst o% all one doesn=t /now how a person &ight be without being able to co&e to
therapy$ 3erhaps it is a lifeline, even though there is no apparent &ove&ent o% any sort %or ?uite
long stretches o% ti&e$ Then all o% a sudden there are shi%ts which I can=t deny when I see$ 2nd
then I a& gladdened$ ;hatever the rewards are in this wor/3 to see people getting better is the
&ain one$ The &oney part is in a way not all that co&pelling3 %or &e3 and I=ve tried to set &y li%e
up to balance it with another sort o% inco&e precisely so that I wouldn=t %eel in any way
dependent on holding anyone$ 2nd I %eel it=s very i&portant to wean people as early as possible3
because the purpose o% therapy is to %ind out you don=t need it$ 2nd the sooner you %ind that out
the better$ But so&eti&es it does ta/e ?uite a while3 and you need it to %ind out that you don=t
need it$

"eon: It=s i&portant not to be dependent on or attached to the &oney involved and
e9changed in relation to encouraging anyone to continue in therapy$ But the %act is that &ost o%
us aren=t %ree o% such attach&ents3 and as I said in an earlier conversation3 I have %elt the
te&ptation to hold or /eep so&eone in therapy to support &y econo&ic needs3 or3 &ore li/ely3
insu%%iciently e9a&ined and thought out perceived @needs=$ I=& relieved and happy when I have
enough people co&ing along and don=t need to worry about that3 which than/%ully is usually the
case$ I thin/ it=s ?uite a good thing i% a therapist can set up their li%e in such a way as that they=re
not wholly dependent on their therapy patients or clients as a source o% inco&e$ It=s i&portant
that people should not be held because o% &y needs3 although &y needs are part o% the real world
and I=& &eeting with others within an econo&y that neither o% us are able si&ply to step outside
o%$ 2nd &y econo&ic re?uire&ents can be consistent with good practice3 and practice o% what is
good$ Therapists have to attend to their own egoistic needs and attach&ents3 and should try to see
how those get in the way o% therapy3 or o% any ethical relation to the 6ther where the 6ther has a
clai& on us to be put %irst$

Steve3 I want to go bac/ to so&ething you were saying be%ore you tal/ed about the
&oney3 and then go bac/ to Bob=s ?uestion about patience$ Iou were tal/ing about so&eone who
was ?uite deadening3 and was going to outlast you3 and I thin/ it is i&portant in li%e and in
therapy not to let the other person do you in$ Not Aust %or &y sa/e3 but %or the other person=s
sa/e$ It=s a perception3 Audge&ent and value o% &ine that it=s not a good thing to let people do
you in$ So I o%ten %ind &ysel%3 in one way or another3 conveying this3 al&ost teaching this to
so&eone else$ Now i% I a&3 as I said I suspect I &ight be3 too patient3 or too unready to see that
&aybe what we=re calling therapy isn=t wor/ing3 that &aybe no &atter how long we &eet3 there
isn=t going to be any &eaning%ul Othough how will that be Audged3 by who&J and so onP change3
then I=& being irresponsible$ Because i% a person3 li/e the one you described3 is deadening and
deadening &e3 and i% I can=t %ind a way to open that out3 to contribute to enlivening3 then I=& not
doing the other a %avour by continuing this$ I should be @called= on that one$

Ste#e: The parado9 is that people co&e ostensibly to be released %ro& their su%%ering3 and
yet they=re very o%ten attached to precisely their way o% being in the world3 they don=t want to do
anything di%%erent$ 8reud called this resistance. So I don=t /now that it=s necessarily that people
are doing &e in by being unyielding or unwilling or unable to be touched or reached3 but I can be
%rustrated by it$ 6n the other hand3 so&eti&es it=s clear that it=s a /ind o% loc/ed+in syndro&e3
and the ?uestion is how to %ind a /ey when you /now so&ebody is trying to prove that you can=t3
and they=re going to hold on to that ar&our or that structure o% the way they are3 or even their
secrets3 until they have proven that they can hide what=s in their inner&ost hearts$ But they will
never be released %ro& their wounds and co&pulsive repetitions without telling the truth and
associating %reely$

!ob: But do you thin/ your way o% dealing with su%%ering is newJ

Ste#e: Not at all$ 2ristophones has a play in which Socrates %eaturesFThe 8loudsFand I
thin/ that at one &o&ent he as/s a student to get on the couch$ So it=s not at all clear that
philosophy wasn=t also therapy3 that it had a practiceFan art or practiceFthat has been lost$ Iou
/now the Stoics3 the Sceptics3 the Socratics were physicians3 healers3 as well as thin/ers$

!ob: Saying to people that they %eel pain3 or that they=ve lost their way3 si&ply because
they=re thin/ing about things in the wrong wayJ

Ste#e: Ieah$

!ob: ;hat about priestsJ

"eon: The ritual o% con%ession involves people unburdening the&selves about what they
%eel3 and what they=ve done that they %elt guilty about$ 2nd you &ight have a relationship with a
priest$ In those ways3 there are si&ilarities with therapy$ But the priest usually carries too &uch
dog&atic baggage$ The priest &ay be a vehicle %or %orgiveness3 but there=s liable to be an
i&plicit conde&ning in the %orgiving o% what is being %orgiven$ 4nderstanding and responsibility
&ay be too readily bypassed$ 2nd it &ay not su%%iciently honour the singularity o% the other$ It=s
too liable to beFliterallyFpatronising$

Ste#e: Driests originated %ro& the brotherhood o% the 2esus !ove!ent, as distinguished
%ro& Christianity$ Brothers and sisters welco&ed and engaged others in ?uestioning how best to
co&port onesel% in everyday li%e$ I thin/ the trouble with psychology is that it has tended to
believe that con%licts are so&ehow internal3 which has to do with a &odern turning inward to a
so+called @sel%=$ The battle+ground o% psychology has been the so+called @sel%=3 and its internal
con%licts$ I would pre%er to go out into the world3 and say these con%licts are real con%licts$ The
good priest listens to or negotiates real con%licts in the real world$

!ob: Can Aust anyone beco&e a psychotherapist or a counsellorJ 2re there really things
that you need to /nowJ ;hat is your view o% the proli%eration o% counselling3 %or e9a&pleJ I
&a/e %il&s$ I didn=t spend years ta/ing a %il& course3 I Aust pic/ed up a ca&era and started
shooting and directing$ Bow is beco&ing a therapist di%%erentJ

"eon: Good education in psychotherapy isn=t pri&arily a &atter o% /nowing or ac?uiring
/nowledge$ I thin/ o% would+be therapists serving a /ind o% apprenticeship3 learning %ro& a %ew
people who=ve been practising %or &any years and are able to call their attention to di&ensions
o% what=s going on and what could be going on between the&selves and the other3 and who
encourage considering these &atters3 thought%ully3 together$ 2 student therapist can bene%it %ro&
relationships with3 and guidance and inspiration %ro& &ore e9perienced and3 i% they are
%ortunate3 wise and open+hearted others who have been doing this %or so&e years3 and who are
able to let learning happen$ Let &e ?uote %ro& a passage in Beidegger=s 9hat is 8alled
Thinkin". It=s ta/en %ro& ,artin -eide""er4 7asic 9ritin"s, edited by <avid :rell3 Barper3 San
8ransisco3 #.(($
QTeaching is &ore di%%icult than learning because what teaching calls %or is this' to let
learn$ The real teacher3 in %act3 lets nothing else be learned thanFlearning$ Bis conduct3
there%ore3 o%ten produces the i&pression that we really learn nothing %ro& hi&3 i% by @learning=
we now auto&atically understand &erely the procure&ent o% use%ul in%or&ation$ The teacher is
ahead o% his apprentices in this alone3 that he has still %ar &ore to learn than theyFhe has to learn
to let the& learn$ The teacher &ust be capable o% being &ore teachable than the apprentices$ The
teacher is %ar less sure o% his &aterial than those who learn are o% theirs$ I% the relation between
the teacher and the learners is genuine3 there%ore3 there is never a place in it %or the authority o%
the /now+it+all or the authoritative sway o% the o%%icialR$

I have it at hand as I=& proposing to include that passage in the psychotherapy training
brochure o% the Dhiladelphia 2ssociation3 as well as to shi%t us %ro& the ter& %trainin" to
so&ething &ore li/e education and apprenticeship.

I% you were to Aust pic/ up a ca&era and start to shoot3 rather than %irst going %or a
training course in %il&+&a/ing3 and you were using your own ti&e and resources3 you &ay not
&a/e a brilliant %il&3 but you usually wouldn=t be putting another vulnerable person at ris/$
That=s not the case i% you start &eeting with others in distress or perple9ity without having had
the bene%it o% relationships with e9perienced practitioners$ Iou could be putting yoursel% as well
as the others at ris/Favoidable3 unnecessary ris/$

Ste#e: ;hat this raises %or &e is this debate about whether counsellors and therapists are
born3 or are they &adeJ 2nd what co&es to &ind is &y daughter3 who3 when she was bornFI
was there3 it was a ho&e deliveryFI %elt she was a teacher3 because she welco&ed &e3 &ore
than I was able really3 until e9periencing her welco&e3 to welco&e her$ She taught &e how to
welco&e in a way that was co&pletely open3 be%ore she started to get socialised3 and in so&e
sense possibly s&ashed by the cultural constraints' things get @cultured= out o% us3 and as we start
to get &ore and &ore cultured3 we start to lose this welco&e$ Now I thin/ we are all born with
the possibility o% welco&e3 which I thin/ is the &ost i&portant ingredient o% therapy$

!ob: Can you Aust elaborate3 %or people who &ight not /now what you &eanJ

Ste#e: ;ell welco&e is an acceptance3 an a%%ir&ation3 an a&aGe&ent at her loo/ing in
&y eyes3 and &e %eeling QBere I a&R3 she was saying3 Qand there you areR3 and this is the highest
o% the high o% &o&ents that we are li/ely to have in li%e$ This was an un+encu&bered &o&ent3 o%
being together welco&ing one another3 saying @yes= to each other3 and so&e people &ay call it
love3 which o% course is li/e all words todayFdebased$ ;e give all /inds o% &eaning to words
that are o%ten perversions o% what they=re supposed to &ean$ In any event3 we=re naturally all
born able to do this Aob3 the Aob o% therapist$ ;e all then lose this ability3 and then have to
struggle to recover so&ething o% our initial ability$ Our birthri"ht is our ability to #elco!e the
Other, and this is what I thin/ the %unda&ental ingredient is to be a therapist$ Then o% course
there are so&e s/ills3 and I thin/ the best way to gain the& is not through a training course or
progra&&e3 but as an apprentice$ I thin/ you really have to %ollow so&eone around who /nows
how3 who has the /now+how$ I thin/ so&ething o% that apprenticeship has been lost by the
proli%eration o% these schools3 and the trouble with these schools is that they give the i&pression
that i% you %ollow these sets o% rules3 you=ll be 6:$ 2nd then people are Aust %ollowing rules3 and
o% course that=s the e9act opposite o% being able to do this wor/3 because you=re in a wild space
with another person which3 whatever rules &ay have wor/ed %or so&eone else and in so&e other
situation3 &ay not only not be productive3 but &ay be counter+productive3 in this present
situation or the ne9t situation to co&e$

"eon: I thin/ the %unda&ental perversion has to do with the turning away %ro& the 6ther3
and not only turning away %ro& the 6ther$ ;e so&eti&es use Levinas= e9pression @the %ace o%
the 6ther=3 and spea/ o% responding in responsibility to the %ace o% the 6ther$ 2nd I thin/ o% the
%unda&ental perversion being beyond not responding in responsibility to the %ace o% the 6ther3
not only not welco&ing the 6ther3 not only not saying @yes3 yes=to the other3 but really /ic/ing in
the %ace o% the other$ Dsychotherapy has to attend to ways in which this perversion has been
ra&pant in people=s livesC it=s been done to the&3 and probably they=re doing it to others$ ;e=re
doing it to others &ore than we realise3 in &ore ways than we realise3 and &ore than we need to$
It generates hurt3 hatred3 stress3 &iseryFand3 o% course3 all /inds o% violence3 including genocide
and war$

@;elco&e= is perhaps the si&plest way o% saying what=s called %or3 and a /ind o% base+
line3 a /ind one3 that people &ay well never have %elt they were given or able to e9tend to
another$ It=s Aust better than the perverse$

!ob: Going bac/ to the coursesFotherwise you wouldn=t be able to have a Aob at the end
o% itJ

"eon: Considering what &ight be taught or conveyed in therapy or counselling courses
that are burgeoning up all over the place3 I was re&inded o% a line %ro& an old Iiddish3 probably
Basidic song$ It=s about the rabbi3 or teacher3 and learning %ro& the rabbi$ The spirit o% this
particular song is that you watch and learn %ro& the rabbi3 including how he sits down and stands
up3 drin/s his tea3 ties his shoelaces3 and so on$ 2nd so what is there to be learnt in this cra%tJ It=s
not pri&arily a &atter o% boo/ learning or theories3 nor o% @obAect relations=3 or any other
obAectionable relations that you &ight thin/ we practise$ It=s so&ething rather subtle$ ;e were
privileged and %ortunate to &eet Ronnie Laing and his colleague3 Bugh Craw%ord3 who were on
about a way o% living one=s li%e with others that wasn=t so&e narrow thing that could be learnt in
a @training=3 and it wasn=t pri&arily about /nowledge$ Iou &ight say it was about /now+how3
which is di%%erent %ro& /nowledge3 including in that being streetwise3 having co&&on sense3 and
having unco&&on sense3 and sensibility3 and responsibility o% a pro%ound /ind$ They were both
into ?uestioning and planting seeds o% ?uestioning$ I=& a%raid that we=re not going to %ind a great
deal o% pro%ound ?uestioning in the therapy and counselling industry as all this beco&es &ore
institutionalised3 as was already happening in 8reud=s circle$ Scepticis& is an early casualty3 it=s
not usually welco&e at the table$ 2nd i&plicit in the song about watching the rabbi sit down and
stand up is that we are e&bodied creatures$ ;hen we thin/3 how are we thin/ingJ I% I=& thin/ing
Aust with &y brain or &ind3 that=s a very %rag&ented and corrupted /ind o% thin/ing$ That=s
&aybe what I do &ost o% the ti&e3 but i% I=& to be a thin/er3 in a wholeso&e3 salutary way3 I
need to %think with all o% &y being3 with &y %ingers and toes and belly$ I have to be aware3 not
Aust with &y &ind3 but with &y breath3 and with &y %eet on the ground and so on$ That=s usually
given insu%%icient3 i% any3 attention in courses$ Spiritual &atters too3 have no place in &ost
therapy and counselling industries= ways o% churning out practitioners$ They don=t have any place
in prevailing psychological or pseudo+scienti%ic approaches$ 6r when it sur%aces3 it ?uic/ly gets
reduced to another aspect o% things that=s @covered= but not really thought o% as being o%
%unda&ental i&portance$

Ste#e: I would agree with that$ I thin/ that also3 going bac/ to an earlier ?uestion3 there is
a way that this has beco&e a secular religion3 and people are signing up %or it3 and in a certain
sense are %illing what would otherwise perhaps be a gap that=s &issing in our conte&porary li%e
Fa religion without the orthodo9 religionFand yet nevertheless e&bodying so&ething o% that
spirit or spirituality that=s lac/ing$ Now o% course this gets pac/aged as an industry and as an
institution3 and so&ething o% the spirit is lost$ Now i% there is such a proli%eration and an
overproduction3 then it will reach a li&it cycle$ 6nce everyone is a therapist there will be no
&ore patients$ It=s not at all clear that one ought to be paid %or this wor/$ ;hy not be ethical all
the ti&e with everybody3 without being paidJ But we are paid3 since at the &o&ent econo&y is
such that one has to have the cost o% living covered in so&e way or another in order to live3 to
o%%er one=s ti&e and attention$ It isn=t the only way that I can i&agine or envision the way things
could go in a &ore ideal world$

"eon: 6:3 there=s a proli%eration o% counselling and psychotherapy courses3 a burgeoning
counselling and therapy industry$ There=s so&ething happening that has an upside and a
downside to it3 li/e everything else$ The upside3 @best+case scenario= isFand3 who /nows3 it
could develop in this wayFthat there=s a proli%eration o% loci where people &ight be able to
consider these &atters o% welco&e3 and perversion o% welco&e3 ways we treat each other3 ways
o% enlivening3 o% wa/ing up3 o% beco&ing &ore open+heartedFthat=s the upside3 that counselling
and therapy courses &ight be so&ething li/e that$ The downside is that it=s another industry and
that it will3 i% it hasn=t already3 beco&e largely corrupted3 Aust another part o% a corrupt scene3 Aust
&ore o% the sa&e$

Ste#e: ;hat &a/es &e %eel that I can now do this wor/ was having gone through &y
own therapy$ So&ehow I opened !y heart to &y therapist$ This perhaps &a/es it possible %or
others to open their heart to &e$

"eon: So&eone I /now is ta/ing an introductory course in counselling and therapy which
clai&s to have a special interest in the arts$ It sounds3 as these places go3 a pretty good place'
so&e %ine things happen3 and other things happen that are %ar %ro& being %ineC so it=s a &i9ed
bag$ 2nyhow3 he=s shown &e a letter he=s written to the course director$ OBe=s given his
per&ission %or &e to use the letter in print$ P Be writes that although he=s %ound so&e parts o% the
course truly inspiring3 he %eels that when the course has had what they called @theory days=
so&ething goes badly wrong3 and he says' QI e9perience this in &y body as %rustration3 pain and
anger$ Theory is presented in such a way that it cannot be %ully e9perienced3 i$ e$ deeply thought
and %elt about$ Not Aust individually but in discussion with others$ Q
E9perience see&s to be e9plained away3 QFe9plains e?uals %lattensFbut also does so in
so&eone else=s words$ It doesn=t allow ti&e %or each person %ully to respond to the &aterial in
their own way and in their own language$ Q Iou end up with everyone spea/ing a /ind o%
therapy+spea/$ Be says the second proble& with so&e3 perhaps not all3 theory is that it tends to
involve a cut+o%%ness %ro& practice and e&otion$ Be tal/s about criticis& in this writing about
this course' QCriticis& hardly gets a loo/+in3 and is generally considered to be destructive and a
bad thingFGood art needs good criticis&C good artists also need to be their own critics$ 2
culture without criticis& eventually beco&es stulti%yingly con%or&ist$ Q There=s another point
here' QI can i&agine that a response to what I a& raising could be @but there isn=t enough ti&e=$
Many3 perhaps &ost3 people on the course see& to want to cover the &aterial in the available
ti&e$ But can these things be rushedJ In what sense are you covering the &aterial i% you are
e&otionally shut+o%% and are stuc/ in your headJR Be &entioned here that the teacher actually
had said at one point that she %elt in so&e ways stuc/ in her head3 and he was raising the ?uestion
Q;ell3 how can you be teaching what you=re teaching i% you=re stuc/ in your headJR 2nd I agree$
There=s good news and bad news in that story$ It=s good news that the teacher realises that in
so&e ways she=s stuc/ in her head$ The bad news is that she=s going on with it$ ;hen I %eel stuc/
in &y head3 I thin/ the right thing to do is to stop3 and see i% I can get unstuc/3 because otherwise
what I=& teaching is co&ing %ro& this place where I=& stuc/$ It=s unli/ely to be salutary in
relation to another$ Then he goes on to write' QI% ti&e+tabling ta/es precedence over living3 over
%ull living3 it is continuing the process o% stulti%ication and i&poverish&ent I thought we were all
wor/ing to reverse$ Q

Iou &ight hope that these thought%ul and provocative co&&ents were ta/en on board and
thought%ully considered$ But you=d hope in vain$ Be received bureaucratic+spea/ responses3 was
&arginalised not only by the ad&inistration but by &ost o% the students who also wanted to
@cover= the &aterial and get their ?uali%ications as ?uic/ly as possible$ Be=s now le%t the course$
The therapy and counselling industry won out$ That=s how it=s going$ Deople will go to consult
clones o% unthought%ul3 uncritical products churned out by the industry3 well ?uali%ied clones and
well registered clones who have @covered= the curriculu&$ 2nd %ew will notice #hats covered
over, or obscured3 or re&ains unthought and un$uestioned in all this$ The cover story, o%
?uali%ication and registration by a govern&ent+recognised body3 is what will be &ista/en %or
good preparation to respond to the perple9ities and su%%erings o% others in distress$

!ob: To ta/e another tac/3 I re&e&ber Ronnie saying that people used to co&e to hi&
when he was at school and as/ hi& things3 con%ide in hi&$ Bas that been your own e9perienceJ

"eon: I don=t thin/ so$

Ste#e: I thin/ that there was3 when I was teaching3 that tendency o% students to want to
tal/ personally3 and &y %eeling o% bac/ing o%%3 &y %eeling that I couldn=t$ 2nd then realising well3
that there was so&ething craGy about that$ Ies3 people started to tal/ openly to &e3 and Bugh
Craw%ord o%ten said that people %ind the&selves doing this sort o% wor/ in%or&ally3 until they
realise that actually they want to charge %or it$ Iou %irst beco&e an in%or&al therapist in your
social circle$ I was very reluctant to give up &y a&ateur status3 and start to see people
pro%essionally$

!ob: <o you &ean having a space in which to do it %or&allyJ

Ste#e: I thin/ that this is a ritual3 and so the space has to be a space that=s conducive to it3
because there is a di%%erence between what happens when so&eone is outside the door3 and what
happens when so&eone wal/s in3 and wal/s through the door$ 8or the patient there=s ti&eFthe
therapist has ti!e for the!Fit is a ti&e really about their ti&e3 and it=s a di%%erent /ind o% space
and ti&e than any ordinary social everyday spaceC the therapeutic ritual brings out so&ething o%
the e9traordinary in ordinary li%e$ Now that space has to so&ehow be a space where this can
happen3 and o% course what happens during this space o%ten is ?uite e&otional and charged3 and
so I %or one would not want to do this at ho&e$ I would not want to have the residue o% the wor/3
the a%ter&ath o% the day=s therapy sessions3 in &y ho&e$ So I pre%er to wor/ in a consulting
roo&3 here$

"eon: There=s another reason I pre%er not to be doing this at ho&e Owhich I did %or &any
yearsP$ There=s no guarantee what else is going on in the ho&e between people$ I can ta/e
responsibility &ore readily %or what is going on in &y space that isn=t a shared space with
so&eone else$

Ste#e: Baving said this3 I=& not totally wedded to this ritual$ In other words therapeutic
effects &ight happen by ta/ing a wal/ with so&eone in the par/$

"eon: I agree$ ;hen I was wor/ing in the old <iora&a building across %ro& Regent=s
Dar/ Obe%ore it was ta/en over by Drince Charles %or his charity3 The Drince=s TrustP3 I=d
so&eti&es invite patients to have our session wal/ing through the par/3 or sitting on a bench$ I
%elt the sun3 clouds3 wind3 trees3 plants3 %lowers3 birds3 s?uirrels and people o% all ages and
conditions wal/ing by were helpers in the wor/$ Derhaps I wasn=t considerate enough in realising
that so&eone &ight not want to co&e but was accepting the invitation to please &e$ But I don=t
see why a therapist shouldn=t be open to having sessions there3 or elsewhere$

Ste#e: Deople o%ten as/' QBow long will it ta/eRJ I &ight answer' QBow long is a piece
o% stringRJ In other words I thin/ that while the boundaries o% the way that we wor/ are
so&ehow to so&e e9tent stylised and %or&alised3 by the conte9t o% the pro%ession that we are
prepared to put ourselves %orward as operating within3 there=s o%ten a lot to be said %or other
&odalities o% wor/ing3 to acco&plish the sa&e thing in other ways3 &aybe even &ore
econo&ically$ 2nd I thin/ as one learns &ore %ro& this type o% wor/3 it &ay be &ore possible to
get these e%%ects that happen over a series o% years3 in a shorter ti&e$ 2nd I thin/ Ronnie was a
&aster at actually varying the ways in which he wor/ed3 particularly later in his li%e3 where he
%ound this particular ritualFthe psychoanalytic %i%ty+&inute hourFtoo constricting and
constraining3 and ritualised$ But I don=t thin/ he beca&e less e%%ective$
CHAPTER $O%R

R, &, "A*N)

Gans= and Redler=s wor/ with and /nowledge o% R$ <$ Laing are the central the&e$

!ob: <o you want to start tal/ing about what the wor/ o% Laing &eansJ Is there a
Laingian psychologyJ Is there a Laingian psychotherapyJ

Ste#e: ;ell3 you=ve got to start o%% &a/ing a distinction between R$ <$ Laing the na&e3
and the bearer o% that na&e3 Ronnie Laing3 the person$ 6n the one hand you=ve got an R$ <$
Laing logo3 al&ost a brand na&e3 to which at ti&es Ronnie &ust have %elt a prisoner3 and on the
other hand Ronnie the ordinary blo/e3 however e9traordinary he &ight have been at ti&es$ 8irst
o% all3 Ronnie was a writer who sold boo/s3 and R$ <$ Laing was an i&portant brand na&e that
he perpetuated$ ;hat he did best as a writer was very art%ul and very i&portant$ Be was a
translator and &ediatorC he co&&unicated original wor/ o% the &ost serious peopleFpeople in
the pheno&enological tradition3 the psychoanalytic tradition3 the social science tradition3 the Dalo
2lto group %a&ily therapy3 the prag&atics o% co&&unicationFa whole range o% subAects$ Be was
a poly&athFa guy who /new a lot about a lot o% things %ro& e9perience in a deep way3 in a way
that was ?uite esoteric$ 2nd yet he was able to &a/e what he /new accessible to a wide audience$
Be tried to continue to wor/ with a whole variety o% di%%erent issues and concepts3 all %ocused on
the proble& o% &adness and &ad people$ Bow could anything we /now about whatever help us
address ourselves to &adness in so&e way that was use%ul3 that could relieve the su%%ering that
&adness causedJ Bis &ost original contribution3 which launched his career and was the
continued source o% his inspirationFwhat he wrote about and where he wrote %ro&Fwas the
way he listened to &ad people$ Be%ore Ronnie3 %ew psychiatrists3 i% any3 spo/e with such a good
ear %or &adness$ There were others including 8reud3 >ung3 8ro&&+Reich&an and Rosen3 who
atte&pted in so&e way to decode &ad+spea/3 but Ronnie hung out with &ad people$ Be was %irst
o% all a guy who3 with other people who happened to be seen as &ad3 entered into a /ind o% a
%riendshipC he created space that hadn=t be%ore opened up3 a @between=3 a conversation between
hi&sel% and a so+called @&ad= person$ 2nd also he was very plastic and &i&etic and so he could
i&itate and get into other people=s &oods3 thoughts3 language3 world3 including those o% so+
called @&ad= people$ 2nd he was able to bring bac/ and spea/ o% what it was li/e to be @&ad=
O&ore or lessP$ This gave @&ad= people an enor&ous sense o% relie%$ So&eone heard the&$ They
were not alone$ Madness was not unreason3 a total unintelligibility3 a total di%%erence between the
sane and the &ad$ Ronnie showed that we=re all in it together$ There was not an unbridgeable
gul% between sanity and &adnessC rather there is a continuu&$ Mad people said3 Qthis guy really
understands what I=& going throughR$ This proved e9tre&ely help%ul %or people who thought
they were going &ad3 or who were told they were &ad$ So !adness #as the centrepiece or
preoccupation around which he brought to bear the vast array o% his !ultifaceted erudition. Be
too/ up a vast a&ount o% intellectual traditions as they &ight be relevant to a consideration o%
&adness3 bringing these considerations into the public do&ain and &a/ing the issues accessible3
so that people could understand what was at sta/e$ This was Ronnie Laing=s great contribution3 a
sort o% pantheoretical consideration o% &adness$
"eon: There=s no @Laingian= psychotherapy with a particular Gone and body o%
/nowledge and &ethodology and techni?ues which are traceable bac/ to Laing3 and that other
people are %ollowing$ Be didn=t teach that way$ Those who thin/ that they=re practising a
Laingian psychology or psychotherapy have probably &issed the point$ Beyond what he
e9perienced and read he was a creative and pro%ound thin/er3 and an iconoclast not an ideologist$

Ste#e: Be was never a card+carrying dog&atist or dog&atic3 as %ar as I=ve ever /nown
hi& to be in regard to anything$

"eon: Be wasn=t even a @%ellow traveller= o% card+carrying dog&atists$ Be was one o% the
&ost undog&atic people around$

!ob: <an Burston3 in his biography3 clai&s that retrospectively Ronnie will be
considered to be as i&portant as 8reud and >ung$ I can=t &ysel% see where he gets that %ro&3 and
I certainly have very little interest in >ung$

Ste#e: I thin/ at one level Ronnie will be seen to be a classic. Be will enter into the
canonical wor/s o% psychologyEpsychoanalysis$ Be won=t be %orgotten$ The )ivided 'elfis a
land&ar/ wor/ that will be read and reread and appreciated and reappreciated$ Now in ter&s o% a
/ind o% ground+brea/ing contribution3 the &agnitude o% output3 the enor&ity o% the
conse?uences3 Ronnie does not co&pare with 8reud3 probably not$ Nevertheless in Ronnie=s way
o% putting these things3 I would say both were alpha plus &inds$

!ob: ;ell3 %ro& &y point o% view I %ind 8reud3 apart %ro& one or two &o&ents3 al&ost
unreadable$ But that=s a separate issueF

"eon: <o you %ind his case histories unreadableJ

!ob: I have the proble&3 unli/e you two3 that I have never /nown what I really wanted to
do in li%eF

"eon: That=s an assu&ption you=re &a/ing$

!ob: Ies3 that=s an assu&ption I=& &a/ing$ 8or e9a&ple3 I=ve written about new
religious &ove&ents3 I=ve written about psychiatry3 I=ve written about psychotherapy3 I=ve
written about television3 I=ve written about television audiences3 I=ve written about arranged
&arriages3 I=ve written about all sorts o% things$ 2nd I=ve never been that co&&itted to anything$
2nd o% course because I don=t believe &uch about 8reud3 I=ve never really %elt that encouraged to
read hi&$ But what I have read I=ve %ound so %antastical to be absurd3 and not o% great interest$ I
&ean that=s why I got interested in Ronnie3 because what he said absolutely spo/e to &y
personal e9perience3 and that=s as good a reason as any to get interested in things$ 2ll I /now is
that the ga&es and the ways o% interpersonal deception that Ronnie tal/s about will be with us
%orever3 so it really Aust appealed to &uch &oreFLpausesMFRe&e&ber when we were at that
E9istential Society con%erenceJ Ronnie is the only person I /now whose personal li%e always
gets debated$ The &inute you &ention the na&e o% R$ <$ Laing3 it=s his drin/ing3 alleged a%%airs3
drugs3 etcetera3 etcetera$ Can we tal/ a bit about thatJ

Ste#e: Ronnie was the %irst &edia %igure in this %ield$ The &edia then controlled people=s
perceptions about hi&$ I thin/ he was so&ewhat innocent3 thin/ing that the &edia was probably
a good thing$ 2t %irst he thought he could use the &edia to /ind o% spread the i&portance o% what
he was trying to do3 and &aybe change things$ But I don=t thin/ he counted on the viciousness o%
the &edia3 how the press will build so&eone up to sell papers and then will tear the& down to
sell papers$ ;hat he started to get a%ter his honey&oon period with the &edia was tre&endous
discredit$ 6nce he had pea/ed3 he su%%ered abuse$ The &edia created the @reality= about hi& that
they clai&ed to portray$ Then Ronnie started to beco&e a caricature o% hi&sel% in public$ 2nd I
thin/ as his press got worse and worse it was very disheartening3 &ore and &ore3 to the point
where he beca&e cynical and said Q;ell at least they=re saying so&ething about &eR$ The bitter
irony in the title o% the TN progra&&e he &ade toward the end o% his li%eF)id :ou ;sed To 7e
6. ). Lain"1Fsaid it all$ Deople thought they /new in advance what he was doingFthat is3
drin/ing$ The drin/ing thing was i&portant3 but I don=t thin/ that he or anybody %ully %atho&ed
the place it had in his li%e %or hi&$ Be didn=t su%%er %ools gladly$ Deople would o%ten spea/ in
ways that were discordant %or hi&$ Iou could see how this would pain hi& tre&endously3 al&ost
li/e scratching chal/ on a blac/board3 and it would Aust send shivers through hi&$ 2nd I thin/ he
%elt at ti&es that his e9?uisite sensitivity and sensibility had to be da&pened down by drin/$
Maybe this is putting too positive a %ace on it3 but that was &y e9perience3 that drin/ %or Ronnie
was a da&pening o% the terrible %ine+tuning that he had cultivated$ <rin/ing was a way o% dealing
with the way he %ound others o%%+/ey3 out o% tune3 o% course e9cruciating at ti&es$ ;e all /now
that he overdid it$ ;ith too &uch drin/ he=d &ove %ro& being one o% the &ost congenial people
you=d ever want to be having a conversation with3 to probably the &ost nasty person you could
ever i&agine$

"eon: Be certainly was e9ceedingly sensitive$ Be had an a&aGing shit+detector in ter&s
o% any /ind o% lies3 or deception3 or pretence going on$ I recognise what you=re tal/ing about$ I
thin/ o% how chal/ screeching across the blac/board can give us a weird3 unco&%ortable %eeling3
a chillF

Ste#e: Iou get a sort o% chill %ro& thatF

"eon: Be was a %ine &usician with an e9?uisite ear3 and it=s as though he couldn=t bear
hearing so&eone playing or singing out o% tune3 or screwing up the rhyth&3 so&ething li/e that$
But I=& not sure that he too/ drin/ to dull those senses$ That &ight have been part o% the story
so&e o% the ti&e but I re&e&ber he once said he needed it to get going3 in ter&s o% creative
wor/$ 2lso3 against your interpretation3 or in%erence3 that he dran/ to &a/e hi&sel% less sensitive3
when he was very sloshed3 he wasn=t any less sensitive to that /ind o% deception and lies$

Ste#e: I agree3 I agree3 it didn=t wor/$

"eon: Ieah3 but what would happen when he was pissed3 and would hear the wrong note
or the deception3 he wouldF

Ste#e: Erupt$

"eon: React and erupt with a %ury$ It could be3 at least &o&entarily3 paralysing and
terri%ying$ I used to %eel @hats o%%= to those who weren=t a%%ected in that way3 i% they could
actually listen to and hear what he was saying3 and weren=t thrown into at least &o&entary
paralytic terror3 by his raging3 when it was ai&ed in their direction$

Ste#e: I thin/ one &ore thing can be said about Ronnie=s drin/ing$ Ronnie was very
aware that he was a screen %or people=s proAections and %antasies$ Be was constantly being ta/en
to be a "uru. 6% course to so&e e9tent he staged hi&sel% as being one$ But I thin/ that he was
o%ten ?uite consciously trying to dis&antle this idealisation or group trans%erence$ ;hen he gave
lectures or tal/s3 he &ust have %elt that the sycophancy that surrounded hi& needed to be
disrupted3 that people had to get out o% this adulation o% hi&$ 6%ten Ronnie was surrounded by
people who thought that he was the %ount o% all wisdo&$ But he wanted to put things on a &ore
e?ual level$ I thin/ he was driven to tearing hi&sel% to shreds3 to sacri%icing hi&sel%3 holding
hi&sel% up to ridicule3 to show that he had %eet o% clay$ This un%ortunately only intensi%ied his
cult %ollowing$ 6n the other hand3 the &ore sober were not willing to hear the truth in the things
that he was saying3 since they were not said in a way that was e9pected3 in an acade&ic way$
Ronnie spo/e in a &uch &ore direct3 e9periential way3 spea/ing %ro& the heart3 and they
couldn=t listen$

"eon: In the Tibetan Buddhist tradition there=s an inAunction to attend to or listen to the
teaching3 not the teacher$ That is3 don=t get hung up on Audging the teacher$ 2ttend to the
teaching$

!ob: 2ttend to the teachingJ

"eon: Ies$

Ste#e: Not the teacher he=s getting it %ro&F

"eon: Iou are re&inded that it=s your responsibility to %ind and pic/ a teacher3 and you
shouldn=t accept so&eone as your teacher3 assu&ing that he accepts you as a student3 without
being care%ul about this &atter3 &aybe ta/ing so&e ti&e over it3 and you &ight have to &a/e
certain Audge&ents3 saying @%or &e3 at this ti&e3 this teacher3 as he is at this ti&e3 is not %or &e=$
It=s one=s responsibility to %ind the right teacher3 and once you do3 then pay attention to the
teaching3 not the teacher$ So i% the teacher gets pissed3 or is behaving in ways that see& to others
odd or o%%ensive3 within that tradition3 once you=ve decided that he is your teacher3 you Aust let
that be3 even though you don=t necessarily understand or %eel co&%ortable with what he=s doing3
or how he=s going about it$ Now there are so&e analogies with Ronnie3 which is why I=&
bringing the& up3 because he de%initely was %or so&e people a teacher3 a /ind o% guru$ It=s
nothing that he ever e9plicitly clai&edC I don=t thin/ he ever e9plicitly denied it either$ Be was
not per%ectly clear about it$ 2nd he certainly was a &aster o% so&e sort3 li/e one spea/s o%
so&eone @&astering= Sen3 and being a Sen &aster$ 2t the sa&e ti&e3 li/e other characters o% his
/ind3 especially those who aren=t situated within a bounded3 %or&al tradition3 he was trying to
deconstruct that all the ti&e %or people$ But i% so&eone is a great adept3 the &ore he tries to
deconstruct that3 and divest others o% the illusion that he is so&eone special3 he=s also con%ir&ing
the %act that he=s got so&ething to teach$ Now Ronnie behaved badly on &any occasions in ter&s
o% being rude or insulting or %uc/ing+up things3 but I don=t thin/ that he ever lost a basic
integrity$ Even when he @lurched= and was o%%ensive or &a/ing others really unco&%ortable3 I=d
say that he rarely deviated %ro& a wise and co&passionate course3 straight3 direct and no bullshit3
certainly less than the overwhel&ing &aAority o% us3 including the overwhel&ing &aAority o% his
critics$ ;ould you agree with thatJ

Ste#e: 2bsolutely$ But I thin/ that he was also very3 very pissed+o%% about a whole lot o%
things that were going on in the world around hi&3 and I thin/ that one o% the ways that he
showed this was by getting pissed$ I thin/ that then people didn=t li/e it because it didn=t %it in
with their e9pectations o% what so&eone who was supposed to be a @guru=Fa respectable3 wise
personFwould be li/e$ But why notJ I &ean is there an absolute re?uire&ent that so&eone
should con%or& to the e9pectations o% others3 when those others are creating precisely conditions
that are o%ten violent3 by their co&placency and so+called good consciences$ But it=s a &oot
point3 and perhaps he could have co&ported hi&sel% with a little &ore circu&spection i% he had
thought o% hi&sel% &ore perhaps in a political role o% leadership3 which he didn=t$

!ob: Leon /new hi& longer than &ost3 and the tragedy %or &e really was reading about
hi& as a student3 and then spending a lot o% ti&e with hi& at the end o% his li%e3 and I will never
ever %orget these %inal i&ages which were Aust so di%%erent %ro& all the other i&agesFthe i&ages
o% a &an in e9ile3 a &an who was loathed by the Establish&ent3 a &an under+rated3 a &an
written+o%%3 and all the ti&e struggling with illness3 and having Aust had a new child$ 2nd this had
a pro%ound e%%ect on &e3 you /now seeing how people can be destroyed$

"eon: ;hen you say he was destroyed3 what do you &eanJ

!ob: ;ell I thin/ that i% he was a &an o% a di%%erent culture3 say 8rench3 he wouldn=t
have su%%ered such a lac/ o% appreciation$ I &ean he really did want to be loved and respected by
the Establish&ent3 as all rebels do$ 2nd o% course they Aust could not %orgive hi&$

Ste#e: 6ne o% the people Ronnie pegged hi&sel% against was NietGsche$ 8or hi&
NietGsche had the /ind o% ear3 and the /ind o% sharpness and brilliance and biting irony that
Ronnie &ost ad&ired3 and it was NietGsche who said that people can=t ta/e too &uch o% the truth$
2nd I thin/ that Ronnie was aware that he was a truth+teller3 and that people couldn=t ta/e it3 and
that successively with one person a%ter another3 he got to the point where there was an
unpalatable truth that he told3 that ca&e out3 that was not tolerated3 and little by little he burnt his
bridges$ Be wasn=t prepared to /ind o% play the ga&e that would have given hi& %ortune3 love3
and %a&eC rather he got in%a&y as than/s %or telling the truthFhe didn=t get than/ed %or it$

"eon: Though he certainly wanted %ortune and %a&eF

Ste#e: Be wanted %ortune and %a&e$ But not at the price o% giving up telling the truth3
according to hi&$

!ob: Leon3 one o% the things that has always struc/ &e as being interesting is your /ind
o% &agnani&ous attitude towards Ronnie3 given the unpleasant things he said about you in ,ad
to be *or!al. 6n the one hand he says QLeon is a little bit di%%erent %ro& so&e o% the othersR3
&eaning ShatG&an and >oe Ber/e3 and Q2t one ti&e I would have called hi& &y %riendR3 and
QBe used to co&e around and sing with &eR3 but it was all pretty disparaging$

"eon: ;ell I did actually co&&ent on that3 in &y article %or your boo/ 6. ). Lain"4
8reative )estroyer OCassell3 London3 #..(P$ I %ound it unpleasant and hurt%ul$ But it was a
di%%icult relationship3 and we had %allen out and apart by the early to &id eighties$ I don=t thin/
what you call &y &agnani&ity is a %unction o% &y idealising hi& or putting hi& on a pedestal3 or
a sort o% unrelenting positive trans%erence o% so&e /ind3 but OratherP &y respect and appreciation
%or what he taught and gave$ Be would have been either a saint or unreal i% he didn=t3 at ti&es3
get %ed up or %eel let down by &e$ I thin/ I was o%ten inattentive or thic/3 relative to hi& anyhow3
and did de%er to hi& &uch o% the ti&e in a way that was unhealthy %or a %riendship$ 6ne o% the
last encounters we had was the ti&e he ca&e by when a %riend o% &ine was visiting with her two
little /ids$ Be was getting pissed+o%% about so&ething going onFwell3 he probably ca&e bugged
about so&ething$ I don=t /now why he happened to co&e over on that occasion$ Be certainly
?uic/ly got annoyed and irritated3 and was ai&ing it at this wo&an$ She %inally decided she
wasn=t going to stic/ around3 and went to the door to leave$ 2s she was leaving3 he had a glass o%
red wine in his hand3 and he threw it at her$

This was not a one+o%% nu&ber$ I=d seen hi& throw wine at so&eone3 %ro& a glass he was
drin/ing %ro&3 on other occasions3 usually when he was pissed andEor pissed o%%$ 2%ter a while
I=d try not to have red wine around when he was there$ I have a nu&ber o% pieces o% calligraphy
done by one particular Sen &aster which I=ve had %ra&ed3 and there were several on the wall at
any given ti&e3 and several o% the& have stains where the wine that Ronnie had thrown has
seeped in through the %ra&es onto the rice paper that they=re painted on$ 2nd I=ve got a
co&bination o% two @calligraphies= there$

2nyhow3 out she goes3 and he started to co&e bac/ to the sitting roo& where we had
been3 and I said so&ething li/e' Q;hy the %uc/ did you do thatJHR 2nd he changed his direction3
without hesitating %or a &o&ent or &issing a step3 and went not into the sitting roo&3 where
we=d been3 but into &y bedroo$ The bedroo& door was open3 and in the bedroo&3 on the %ar wall3
as %ar away as it could be %ro& the door that he wal/ed through to get in3 there was a
reproduction o% the painting The (all of carus by Breugel$ Iou /now3 cli%% in the %oreground3 a
ship in the bac/ground and Icarus %alling3 having %lown too close to the sun$ Be had given &e
that reproduction around #.("C it used to be hanging on his consulting roo& wall at !# ;i&pole
Street in London$ ;hen he le%t %or the East to ta/e a year o%% and spend ti&e &editating and so
on3 he pointed to a nu&ber o% things and he invited &e to have any o% those that I wanted$ 6ne o%
the things I too/ was the sculpture o% the head o% the Buddha that had also been in his consulting
roo& and is now in &ine3 over there$ 2nother thing I too/ was that painting$ 2nyhow3 he goes to
the wall3 ta/es this reproduction3 which is %ra&ed and under glass3 o%% the wallFa %airly large
paintingF

!ob: Two &etres wideF

"eon: 2nd he goes over3 ta/es it o%% the wall3 and s&ashes it down on his raised /nee3
saying' QIou don=t deserve thisHR Glass shattered all over the bedroo&$ The picture ripped$ Be
then throws the rest o% it down3 and proceeds to wal/ bac/ into the sitting roo&3 li/e to continue
whatever$ 2nd I said at that point so&ething li/e' QNo you don=t3 %uc/ o%%3 get out o% hereHR
;hich he did and3 as I recall3 again he didn=t hesitate %or a &o&ent$ I thin/ he Aust turned around
and le%t$ It was only a%ter he le%t that I saw a trail o% blood where he=d been3 because he had cut
hi&sel%$ Be was bleeding all the way down the stairs3 three %lights down3 and onto the sidewal/$ I
%ollowed the trail later and tried to %ind hi&$ Now3 &y ta/e on how he=d behaved with the wo&an
was that it was an aggressive3 insulting and unprovo/ed attac/$ ;hy didn=t I intervene3 or do so
&ore decisivelyJ I thin/ I had o%ten been too reluctant to call hi& on these things$ 2nd as %or the
QIou don=t deserve thisR3 I too/ it as Q;ell3 why didn=t you intervene sooner i% you didn=t li/e
so&ething about what was going onJR 2nd also &aybe3 although it hadn=t been articulated3 QI
ca&e over %or so&ething3 and have you been at all attentive to thatJ Bave you been thin/ing at
all o% anyone besides yoursel%JR ;ell I was thin/ing o% so&eone besides &ysel%$ It o%ten
happened that people who were &y guests3 who were receiving &y hospitality3 were abused by
Ronnie$ @2bused= de%initely %ro& a conventional point o% view' by any stretch o% anyone=s
understanding o% conventional behaviour and hospitalityC he was being rude and hurt%ul to people
who were so&eone else=s guestsF&ineFand I=d put up with it$ So I can read that scenario3
retrospectively3 as hi& saying' Q;ell3 co&e on3 step in sooner3 step in &ore e%%ectively3 what are
you waiting %orJR

Ste#e: It would be si&plistic to put all the bla&e on Ronnie when he got into these states3
because there is provocation in any situation when anything happens between people3 and so it=s
not si&ply Aust spea/ing &agnani&ously$ Drobably I agree with Leon that we let hi& down$ ;e
were inade?uate to the tas/ o% con%ronting hi& enough3 and in a responsible enough way$ There
could have been so&ething &ore creative to co&e o% so&e &o&ents that were ?uite terri%ying in
which he erupted and blew up$ They were not actually all that terrible3 e9cept that they could and
so&eti&es did destroy %riendships$

"eon: I absolutely agree$ So that=s ?uite a pain%ul e9a&ple3 but I %eel that even in &ost o%
his &ost aw%ul &o&ents3 with hi& behaving li/e a raging bull3 or a local bully3 or a Glaswegian
thug3 he had so&ething to teach3 he was co&ing %ro& so&e place that was not pri!arily
&alicious or nasty or wantonly destructive$ Iet it was o%ten destructive o% bullshit3 o% hesitation3
o% cowardliness3 o% habitual ways o% being and relating that were stuc/ in all /inds o%
attach&ents and aversions or evasions that got in the way o% wa/ing and wising up3 or even Aust
growing up3 and o% helping others to beco&e &ore awa/e3 alive and responsible$

Ste#e: It was clearly the case that Ronnie was as/ing %or so&e /ind o% engage&ent3 that
would in so&e way be o% su%%icient strength to hold hi& in a way in which he wouldn=t be
allowed to go on a ra&page$ Now the guy who could really do that %or hi&3 and who did it %or
hi& o%ten3 was Bugh Craw%ord$ 2nd in &any ways it was when Bugh died that Ronnie beca&e a
ro"ue elephant.

"eon: I thin/ &ost o% us let hi& down$ I %eel I let hi& down$ I de%initely thin/ I wasn=t
responsible enough and3 in no s&all part3 that=s probably why I was o%ten on the receiving end o%
his wrath$ There are all /inds o% teachers3 and all /inds o% relationships between teacher and
taught$ Ronnie could also be very gentle3 but he de%initely wasn=t a @grand&other=$ Be was a
tough character$ But there were &any ti&es over the years when I was troubled3 and caught up in
layers o% su%%ering3 when he was e9tre&ely generous3 a good %riend3 and a good helper$ I wasn=t
always s&art enough3 open enough or courageous enough to get it$ It too/ &e a long ti&e to be
able to ta/e responsibility %or &y own li%e and %or others$ I could wonder i% he &ightn=t have
%ound a better way to convey what he wanted to convey than he did$ ;ell3 QLet hi& who has not
sinned cast the %irst stoneR$

Ste#e: I% we /new then what we /now nowH

"eon: 6r3 indeed3 what &any ordinary people thin/ o% Aust in ter&s o% being &ature and
responsible in a conventional way3 never &ind Levinasian ethics$ It too/ &e &any @at bats=
be%ore I got to %irst base$ I was %or a long while ?uite untogether and wasn=t %ully responsible3 not
to &ysel%3 not to the others around &e$ Bowever3 so&ething told &e that this guy had so&ething
really %ine to teach &e and others$ I was going to stay in there3 stay %or the course3 however
di%%icult it was$ The alternatives see&ed less de&anding but also less worthwhile$

!ob: 2nd what was thatJ

"eon: Let &e answer that with a story or a phrase that I thin/ Steve alluded to3 &aybe
today or on so&e other occasion$ 6ne o% the things Ronnie would o%ten say in ter&s o% so&e
pro%ound learning was Q<on=t get it %ro& the Babylonian Tal&ud3 get it %ro& where the
Babylonian Tal&ud got it %ro&R$ Now one could interpret that in various ways3 but one o% those
ways that I thin/ is valid is' don=t get it %ro& any source o% /nowledge in ter&s o%3 say a te9t or
body o% /nowledge3 or any ritual3 or any tradition3 get it %ro& where that=s getting it %ro&3 get it
at source$ Now I thin/ he did that$ I=ve &et a %ew people who probably are in that league in ter&s
o% getting it %ro& source$ ;hat it was3 was a /ind o% wisdo& and co&passion$ I=d say he was an
enlightened being$ Not one without %laws3 not absolutely %ree and clear3 but well on the way$
Now I=& sure a lot o% people would consider that to be an idealisation o% Ronnie3 &aybe
including &any o% the people closest to hi&3 as he could be such a bloody pain in the nec/3 or a
bullying or raging bastard$ Nevertheless this was a special guy$ ;hat drew &e to hi& &ight have
been all /inds o% %uc/ed+up attach&ents and trans%erences3 call it what you will3 but deep down I
/new' @this is right3 stay with it=$ I /ept postponing going bac/ to the 4S2$ I wasn=t going to stay
in London3 I was going to go bac/3 and I had a Aob lined up at a university to do &y last year o%
psychiatric residency3 and would have been able to spend at least hal% &y ti&e with the Civil
Rights Move&ent in the South %or that last year3 and part o% it teaching in ;ashington$ I passed it
upC I /ept delaying going bac/3 and the phrase I used %or &ysel% at the ti&e was @there=s
un%inished business here=$ I didn=t have a clue ?uite how un%inished it was3 or the depth and
e9tent o% the path to be traversed3 but I de%initely had the sense3 albeit with %ear and trepidation3
that here was a source o% pro%ound teaching$ Be was tuned+in to so&ething3 he was tuned+in to
so&e o% the greatest traditions3 in the ;est and in the East3 o% deep3 deep understanding$ <eep
understanding that can=t really be separated %ro& either wisdo& or love$ Upar

!ob: Be didn=t Aust play at thingsF

"eon: No3 he didn=t$ 6r i% he @Aust played=3 he @Aust played= in the %inest sense$ Be could
Aust play3 and usually play Austly too3 or play in the service o% Austice$ Be was seldo& Aust %ooling
around$ The people you re%er to &ade those Audge&ents according to their li&ited understanding$
Such people &ight have thought Q2h3 you see he=s not really practising as the yoga teachers I
/now practise$ Be isn=t staying within this or that tradition3 he=s not adhering to the rules o% this
or that disciplineR$ No3 he was a %ree spirit3 he was a %ree soul$ Be connected up with the core and
heart o% various traditions but he didn=t accept3 without ?uestion3 anyone else=s rules o% the ga&e$

Ste#e: I don=t /now about %ooling around3 because i% a %ool persists in their %oolishness3
o% course that=s also the path towards wising+up3 and I thin/ thatF

"eon: But he wasn=t playing around in the sense o% a dilettante or in so&e super%icial
way$

Ste#e: I /now why people would thin/ that3 or say that at ti&es$ ;e had a reading group
and we would read Beidegger3 and it was ?uite interesting because he would co&e in there with
a de%t /ind o% acuity3 s?ueeGing out the Auice at the core o% what Beidegger was on about3 spea/
o% it3 and then that was the end o% it$ It wouldn=t be li/e &ost people who would be discussing
this sort o% thing who spend eight3 ten wee/s dealing with each nuance and &a/ing a &eal o% it$
Be really was into getting the nourish!ent at the heart o% it3 but he wasn=t into the develop&ent
o% it particularly %or its own sa/e3 as a /ind o% an elaboration$ 2nd so not only did he not write
about his spiritual li%e3 he didn=t write about his intellectual li%e$ Be was a thin/er3 but he never
really wrote about the depths at which he was thin/ing3 and the te9ts with which he was engaged$
But when you say @spirit=3 it=s re&inding &e o% this /ind o% &aybe wordplay3 because the word
@spirit= also &eans spirits3 the alcohol that we were tal/ing about3 but it also &eans spirits in the
ter& o% spoo/s3 or being haunted3 and so it=s not clear what @spirit= really &eans$ There=s no way
one can separate one /ind o% spirit %ro& another /ind o% spirit absolutely$ So I thin/ actually that
there=s a way in which Ronnie was haunted by spirits, o% which his spiritual li%e was an outco&e$
Be had a sense o% connecting with the source3 as Leon said3 and being /ind o% the conduit in
so&e sense3 through which the legacies and the inheritances o% these traditions would co&e
through$ 2nd inso%ar as he did that3 he was prepared to pay the price$ 2 legacy that you inherit
has a cost that you have to pay$ Iou Aust don=t get a trans&ission without it changing your li%e$ In
%act &any people who read all this spiritual &aterial3 or even beco&e ?uite acade&ically
pro%icient in it3 are relatively clueless as to the heart o% the &atter3 and hence re&ain indi%%erent
to the heart$

!ob: >ohnny <u%%yFRonnie=s oldest %riendFsaid to &e he=d never encountered such an
unhappy &an as Ronnie$ Could you both tal/ about that3 particularly in the relation to this idea o%
the wounded healerJ

Ste#e: ;ell I would say that I %elt connected to Ronnie when I %irst &et with hi&3 and we
got on a /ind o% %riendship basis$ I used to co&e over to his house and we used to tal/ and drin/
and s&o/e al&ost every wee/ %or so&e period o% ti&e$ I thin/ we recognised in one another a
/ind o% despair$ I had carried around %or a long ti&e a /ind o% a blac/ cloud o% despair and
Ronnie o%ten see&ed to su%%er %ro& despair$ It=s very hard to characterise e9actly what despair is
li/e3 and in %act one o% the things that happened to &e3 probably pretty directly attributable to &y
analysis with Bugh Craw%ord3 was that &y despair li%ted3 it blew over a%ter a ti&e3 and I couldn=t
get it bac/ even i% I wanted to$ >ust to give you a %lavour o% it3 thin/ o% Bec/ett3 and the
at&osphere o% his writings$ I lived with Bec/ett=s wor/ in a dar/ roo& also listening to ;agner
endlessly3 and that=s how I spent &ost o% &y early student days3 in the &ode o% Russian nihilis&$
6ccasionally I Aust about hung in the ga&e and /ept the thread with the syste& goingC I didn=t
drop out3 but I was very withdrawn at university$ 2nd I thin/ that Ronnie was very withdrawn3
that he was very isolated3 despite his wide circle o% co&rades$ Be o%ten e9pressed his deep
disappoint&ent about the cruelty of hu!anity. 2nd I thin/ he was very3 very deeply wounded and
pained3 and this goes bac/ to his earliest years$

"eon: 6% course he was in a lot o% personal pain$ ;hat i&&ediately springs to &ind is
the ti&e he %elt betrayed by his partner=s in%idelity and deception$ Be was really thrown$

!ob: Mani%ested howJ

"eon: ;ell he wasF

Ste#e: Nery angry$

"eon: Be was very hurt and very angry3 he was wal/ing around li/e a raging bull$ Be
invited &e around that ti&e to co&e and see the %il& 6a"in" 7ull with hi& at the Screen on the
Bill up the road$ Be was hi&sel% li/e a wounded and raging bull at that ti&e$ Be was behaving in
ways that people %ound bullying3 obAectionable and transgressive$ I re&e&ber on one o% the
occasions3 when I was %eeling particularly an9ious3 depressed3 untogether3 helpless and hopeless3
he said to &e3 al&ost snarled at &e3 Q<o you thin/ you=re su%%ering &ore than I a&JR ;ell3 that=s
a tough ?uestion to answer$ I would say that I was su%%ering di%%erently than he was3 and that
there was so&ething about his su%%ering which &ade it see& to &e3 then3 and see&s to &e now3
as well3 &ore liveable with3 because it was &ore authentic$ Now3 at this ti&e in &y li%e3 I don=t
clai& to be %ree o% su%%ering3 nor a& I co&plaining that I=& i&&ersed in su%%ering3 but such
su%%ering as I have is o% a di%%erent orderC it=s both &ore and less &y ownC there is less con%usion3
perple9ity3 dependency and %ear i&plicated$ So when he would say things li/e that3 I wondered i%
he actually could understand where I was co&ing %ro& and what it was li/e %or &e$

I had as/ed hi& to ta/e &e on in therapy within &y %irst couple o% years in London$ I
needed to be in therapy again$ Be said he=d thin/ it over3 but be%ore he could respond3 I decided
it wouldn=t be a good idea$ I /new I was wanting to stay3 and wanting to wor/ with hi&3 and I
thought i% I really open up this terri%ied3 %rag&entedFI can=t even call it a @sel%ish sel%=3 because
I=& not sure that there was &uch o% a sense o% sel%3 yet there was sel%ishnessFI thought i% I open
up that can o% wor&s3 this guy will tell &e to %uc/ o%%$ ;hen I brought it up with hi&3 years later3
he said QIou &iscalculatedR$ But I=ve answered your ?uestion on his pain by spea/ing about &y
own3 and I thin/ his ?uestion3 Q<o you thin/ you=re su%%ering &ore than I a&JR was telling &e
not only that he was su%%ering too and he wasn=t going on about it3 so why was IJ Iou /now3
what a drag and waste o% spiritH But he was also trying to lure &e out o% &y narcissistic prison3
and invite &e into the possibility o% a di%%erent /ind o% relationship which re?uired that I could
see3 hear and be with hi& otherwise that I was3 be concerned with and relate to his otherness3 and
be able to respond in responsibility %or hi&3 and not treat hi& so &uch Aust as so&eone there %or
&eFyou /now3 &e3 &e3 &eFwhich3 in a way3 I lapsed into in responding to your ?uestionH

!ob: Steve3 when you said that you couldn=t get the despair bac/ even i% you wanted it3
are you saying that your relationship with hi& li%ted itJ

Ste#e: I didn=t have therapy with Ronnie$

!ob: No3 but we were tal/ing in connection with hi&$ ;hy were you saying that you lost
that despairJ

Ste#e: I lost it as a result o% therapy with Bugh Craw%ord3 I thin/$ But I don=t thin/
Ronnie ever lost it you see3 I thin/ that was the thing$ Be always carried it$ Iou re&e&ber the
?uote %ro& Sorba the Gree/FR;hat good are all your da&n boo/s i% they don=t teach why we
dieJR I thin/ he was troubled by %ates worse than death3 territories that were night&ares3 terror3
terri%ying night&arish spaces$ Boo/s were only a partial panacea$ I thin/ !usic #as the thin"
that really lifted his despair, when we really got to a certain point in a conversation3 at a certain
point it had to stop3 and it was Aust3 you could see3 so&ehow unbearable %or hi& at a certain
point3 because o% the intellect Aust leading to too &any cul+de+sacs3 that is Aust unsatis%ying3 and
he=d get behind the piano and start to play so&e Chopin3 and then all o% a sudden you /now he
would be a di%%erent Ronnie3 he would brighten up and lighten upF

"eon: 2nd could at that ti&e see& happy indeed3 and ecstaticF

Ste#e: It was the closest that I=ve seen hi& being in a state o% relie% or re&ission$

!ob: 6ne o% the things I really want to tal/ about is his attitude to love$ 6ne o% Ronnie=s
?uotes that I li/e3 which I=ve used3 is the one about the absence o% love3 or even the absence o%
the &e&ory o% love3 or the absence o% a &e&ory o% an hallucination o% loveFyou /now3 Ronnie
says that without these li%e would not be worth living$ Bow was love de%ined in his li%e3 and how
did he live thatJ

"eon: In The 3olitics of E&perience he writes about love as letting the 6ther be with
concern and a%%ection$ I thin/ he was pretty good at letting others be$ There wasn=t always
a%%ection3 but neither was there pretence at a%%ection$ But letting the 6ther be is already a certain
/ind o% a%%ection$ This is one o% the things he taught Aust by how he was3 and &ay be one o% the
&ost valuable things that we too/ away %ro& our ti&e with hi&$

Ste#e: It=s not by accident that the Dhiladelphia 2ssociation got its na&eFphilia V
delphos4 brotherly and sisterly love$ 3hilia also has an a%%inity with a"ape, which is a /ind o%
%ellow %eeling3 a /ind o% /inship with your %ellow &an$ This is a /ind o% leaving3 allowing3 giving
per&ission3 lettin" be. I=ve never really co&e across anyone who was less li/ely to lay a trip on
anyone than Ronnie$ Be wasn=t trying to induce people to con%or& and collude with his
e9pectations in order to &a/e hi& %eel better$ Be was not trying to enlist others to beco&e the
supporting cast in his scenario$ Be was not trying to get a particular reaction %ro& so&eone3 to be
a &irror %or hi& to re%lect bac/ to hi& how he wanted to see hi&sel%$ It was very liberating %or
anyone to be allowed to be in that way by hi&$

2s %or inti&acyFRonnie was seen as attractive by both se9es$ Be had se9ual relations
with ?uite a nu&ber o% wo&en3 and had &any ad&irers a&ongst wo&en$ Be was ?uite a strongly
loving person3 and ?uite a war& person$ Nevertheless3 he never lost what at ti&es was a palpable
sense o% despair that hung over hi& li/e a blac/ cloud$ I would say that the despair that I had %elt
%or &ost o% &y li%e was li%ted %ro& &e as a result o% &y therapy with Bugh Craw%ord3 which
opened &y heart$ I don=t %eel I could do the /ind o% therapy wor/ I do3 unless I do it with an open
heart$ So there=s a certain /ind o% loving pro9i&ityFa"apeFthat happens in a therapeutic
situation$ I also %ind it %ul%illing to be called on to o%%er this /ind o% welco&e$ 2s %or &y personal
li%e3 I=& pleased to say that I=& in a surviving &arriage o% thirty+seven years3 a loving &arriage
F

"eon: I had to separate %ro& hi&C there had to be a brea/ between us in order %or &e toF

!ob: GrowJ

"eon: Ieah3 I had to get %ree o% hi& spatially3 and over ti&e3 to %ree &ysel% o% certain
attach&ents to hi&3 and certain nu&bers that I was caught up in with hi&$

!ob: <o you thin/ you=ve been elected as Chair&an o% the D2 because you were seen as
his prote"e1

"eon: No3 but &aybe so&eone else better answer that one$ I don=t thin/ so$

Ste#e: I thin/ that Leon was seen as Ronnie=s prote"e when Ronnie was part o% the
co&panyF

"eon: ;hich I thin/ wor/ed against &e$

Ste#e: It probably did$ 2nd now I thin/ that as ti&e has gone on3 Leon has un+coupled
%ro& being a Ronnie protE"E, but he is so&eone who e&bodies the tradition that Ronnie
generated in setting up the Dhiladelphia 2ssociation3 which was intended to be so&ething li/e an
acade&y in the Dlatonic sense3 i% you will$ It was &eant to be a scene in which a whole range o%
diverse in%luences would &eet and perhaps inspire one another$ In the days when I Aust ca&e
round in the early #.("s there were within the D2 scenes within scenes3 scenes that would deal
with the body3 scenes that would deal with theatre3 scenes that would deal with birthing3 scenes
that would deal with a whole range o% ways o% addressing &ental distress and su%%ering3 o% which
psychotherapy would only be one strand$ 2s ti&e went on3 and part o% the reason %or the blow+up
that resulted in Ronnie leaving3 and shaped the way the Dhiladelphia 2ssociation developed a%ter
that3 was the desire on the part o% so&e &e&bers to beco&e &ore acceptable within the
psychotherapy co&&unity as a psychoanalytic psychotherapy training organisation$ The
Dhiladelphia 2ssociation with Ronnie the enfant terrible as Chair was seen as a radical
organisation3 not properly psychoanalytic+psychotherapeutic$ This all shi%ted when Ronnie le%t
and the 4:CD Othe 4nited :ingdo& Council %or DsychotherapyP started$ ;e were &ore and
&ore seen not only to be o%%ering the e?uivalent to all the groups in ter&s o% the rigour and
structure o% our psychoanalytic course3 but we were also o%%ering a philosophical criti?ue o%
psychoanalysis dis&antling so&e o% the rather crude psychologistic thin/ing that is ri%e in
psychoanalytic circles$ So the D2 gained &ore o% a good reputation post Ronnie$ But a%ter
Ronnie there was no+one a&ongst the group who too/ the lead to orchestrate the Dhiladelphia
2ssociation$ *o one took over for 6onnie as 8hair. ;e &ore or less saw ourselves as a /ind o%
collective3 as a /ind o% leadership that was a collective leadership3 a /ind o% consensus o% a
collective3 and no+one wanted to be put in the centre3 or put anyone in the centre3 and no+one
wanted to assu&e that3 and so on$ Eventually we started to %all out with one another$ 2nd Leon
was chosen as the one person who& everyone %elt was %air$ Not only was he even+handed and not
biased in one way or the other3 but he /ept alive our eclipsed tradition$ 2s it turned out the group
split$ There were those who really did not want to continue in what I would consider the tradition
o% the Dhiladelphia 2ssociation$ They really wanted to belong to the psychoanalytically+
orientated psychotherapy institution3 and %orget about anything else$ 2nd they saw us as die+
hards3 as those who wanted to preserve Ronnie=s legacy and &ove on %ro& there$

"eon: I hope I wasn=t un%air$ There was no ?uestion that I was co&pletely against the
Dhiladelphia 2ssociation being reduced to being a psychoanalytic psychotherapy training
organisation3 and it was well on the way to beco&ing that3 or indeed had pretty &uch beco&e
that$ 2nd that was a betrayal o% the tradition3 and certainly o% the best o% Laing3 and the best o%
what brought us togetherF

Ste#e: But you were still %air in allowing everyone a place who wanted it3 and seeing our
di%%erences as not ulti&ately inco&patible$

"eon: I was insisting that the Dhiladelphia 2ssociation was a charity concerned with
&ental su%%ering3 and the radical relie% o% &ental su%%ering$

Ste#e: 2nd you got the support o% the great &aAority o% the &e&bers who agreed with
you$

"eon: It hadn=t been su%%iciently articulated until I began to articulate it$

Ste#e: No3 it was eroding slowly and i&perceptibly in a way that people were not really
noticingF

"eon: So that even so&e o% the &e&bers who haven=t split o%%3 who are still with us3
so&e o% our colleagues really aren=t wanting &uch &ore than a psychoanalytic psychotherapy
training organisation3 and probably are so&ewhat suspicious and distrust%ul o% &e3 and probably
not very co&%ortable with &e as Chair3 and the direction that Steve and I both want to &ove in3
which is not going bac/ to how things were3 but which is a going bac/ to the source3 to the roots
o% what3 in the association in the na&e o% philia, once inspired us and others$

Ste#e: 2 &ore inclusive rather than e9clusiveF

!ob: I always thought the Dhiladelphia 2ssociation was centrally concerned with
pheno&enologically+inspired research progra&&es$ That it was about pheno&enological en?uiry
F

Ste#e: ;ell I agree3 I thin/ that pheno&enology is the basis o% continental thin/ing3 and
all continental thin/ing that is conte&porary ta/es its Au&ping+o%% point %ro& the analysis o%
e9perience started by Busserl$ This is a rigorous way o% loo/ing at e9perience and &eaning3 a
way o% giving attention3 and being &ind%ul o% how e9perience is constituted and how things
co&e to &ean$ But I thin/ that what happened within the pheno&enological tradition3 and &ore
recently3 say in the last %i%ty years3 was that a lot o% the students o% Busserl and Beidegger bro/e
away %ro& strict pheno&enology3 so that you get a 8oucault who tal/s history3 you get a <errida
who tal/s about the co&ple9ities o% language3 you get a Levinas who tal/s about ethics3 you get
a whole new set o% initiatives3 that I thin/ are inspiring a lot o% us in various ways$ So Au&ping
o%% %ro& pheno&enology and its e9istential /ind o% elaboration3 and &oving &ore into what=s
called post&odern thin/ingFwhatever e9actly you &ay &ean by post&odernFare what is in
play at the &o&ent3 and we=re too involved in it to see it in perspective$

!ob: Leon3 you passed that ?uestion on to SteveFwhyJ

"eon: Drobably because Steve grew up intellectually in the pheno&enological tradition3
and has taught in the pheno&enological tradition3 and is &uch &ore versed in the ;estern
pheno&enological tradition than I a&3 and can spea/ &ore articulately about it$

!ob: But as Chair&an3 do you si&ply chair other people=s views and intentions and
interestsJ

Ste#e: I %eel that he=s being unduly &odest$ Leon can also lay clai& to ?uite an education
in pheno&enological and conte&porary traditions o% discourse$

"eon: I=ve got &y own points o% view3 and they=ve been deeply in%or&ed by
pheno&enology$ Darticularly pheno&enology as &ediated through Laing initially3 and then &ore
through Beidegger than Busserl3 and perhaps &ost i&portantly in ter&s o% what I would call
Eastern pheno&enology3 which was very &uch a part o% the D2 tradition in the early days3 but is
hardly a part o% the D2 tradition any &ore3 even though there are several o% us with an interest in
Eastern religious and spiritual discourses and practices$

CHAPTER $*'E

!O! (%""AN

Bob Mullan is the %ocus o% the %i%th set o% conversations$

"eon: ;e=re going to try to address two things today$ The second thing will be the trip
we all &ade to New Ior/3 which should be spo/en about$ But %irst3 Bob3 you as/ed &e why I %elt
so cheer%ul3 and I said I=& so e9hausted and things are so bad that i% I couldn=t laugh it would be
intolerable$ Being able to laugh and see the %unny side o% things is a great help$ 2nd then you
said Q<on=t tal/ to &e about terrible thingsR3 and told a story that=s worth loo/ing at together$ I
Ao/ed and said &aybe you=ll get a %ree therapy session out o% this$

!ob: 6:3 well3 I=ve co&piled a boo/3 called Off the ,enu4 8onversational 8hefs, and
I=ve interviewed Britain=s leading che%s about their cra%t3 their art3 their science3 the nature o%
restaurants3 the nature o% training3 violence in the /itchens3 the &ind o% the che%3 whether the
presentation o% %ood on a plate is artistic3 so on and so %orth$ They=re all London+based che%sF
%a&ous Michelin two+and three+star che%s3 and in conversation &any o% the& &ention the god o%
gastrono&y3 a &an called 2lain <ucasse$ 2t his restaurant he charges W0"" %or two people3 %or
lunch$

"eon: Iou=ve got to be out to lunch to pay thatH

!ob: ;ell it=s very interesting that the only ti&e he really got ru%%led when I tal/ed to
hi& was when I brought up the starving people o% the world$ 2nyhow I went to Daris to interview
hi& and recorded the conversation on tape3 with the idea to return to the hotel3 %ind a translator
and get it translated into English %or his D2 to chec/ it be%ore we le%t Daris$ This was going to be
the %inal piece %or the boo/FLpausesMFSo I %ind a translator who=s prepared to translate it into
English$ I go to REpubli?ueC I=& wal/ing in3 I=& about to /noc/ on the door3 and I thin/ to
&ysel%' QI=& &issing so&ethingR3 and I wasFI=d le%t the tape recorder and the tape in the bac/
o% a ta9i$ The ta9i had gone o% course$ I called his D2 and told her the story3 and she said Q;ell he
won=t do it againR$ ;hen I actually le%t the building the %irst ti&e3 I stood in the street3 and I
really didn=t /now whether to laugh or cry$ I didn=t want to go bac/ and see Tracy3 because I
wanted to be able to be angry and not ta/e it out on her$ 6n the other hand I wanted to see her
because she &ight &a/e &e %eel better$ This happened last Tuesday$ That evening we &anaged to
surviveC ;ednesday we had a nice day in Daris3 and I was trying to co&e to ter&s with it$
Iesterday co&ing bac/ on the train I was pretty &orose$

"eon: <id you as/ the police whether there=s a central lost and %ound in case anyone had
happened to turn it inJ

!ob: No I didn=t$

"eon: ;hyJ

!ob: ;ell3 I didn=t thin/3 but also probably thought that there was no chance that that
would happen$

"eon: ;e had a guy co&e to visit us at ho&e about three years ago3 and when he got
there he realised that he had le%t his brie%case in a ta9i on the way over$ I &ade a couple o% phone
calls3 got so&e people tracing it3 and an hour later the ta9i rolled up at &y house and gave hi&
his things bac/$

Ste#e: <id you try to recall what he said in any wayJ

!ob: The boo/ is co&posed o% verbati& interviews$

Ste#e: So there=s no possibility %or recollectionJ

!ob: No3 no$ I=ve co&e to ter&s with it now anyway$ There=s nothing I can do about it$
I=ve &ade &ysel% so ill3 both yesterday and todayFpains all over &y body3 and angerF

"eon: 2nd this sort o% thing has happened to you be%oreJ

!ob: Ieah$ Iou &ean not so &uch leaving things3 but things going wrong which cause
&e great anger and &a/e &e lose heartJ

"eon: Grie% tooJ

!ob: No3 not grie%$

"eon: ;ell you said you didn=t /now whether to laugh or cry$

!ob: Ieah3 but really I thin/ I didn=t /now what to do$ I thought QThis is ridiculous3 I=ve
co&e all this way3 I=ve spent all this &oney$ I=ve Aust lost the interview$ The world=s greatest
che%HR

"eon: So have you also lost things be%oreJ Is the speci%icity o% losing so&ething or
leaving so&ething behind in this way %a&iliarJ

!ob: 2 little3 a little$

"eon: Tell &e3 whatJ
!ob: I% I re%lected on this %or &ore than a &o&ent3 I would say to &ysel% absolutely
clearly that I invest too &uch in &y wor/$ 2nd there%ore I get so perple9ed and disheartened
because I=ve co&e to see &ysel% as so&eone who wor/s3 and not so&eone who is$ 2nd I easily
get disheartened with these things because I thin/ i% I don=t write boo/s3 or &a/e %il&s3 I=&
nobody$ I thin/ that=s what it=s all about3 but I never tried to %ace these things because they=re Aust
too terri%ying when you get close up$

"eon: Iou=re seriousJ

!ob: Serious about whatJ

"eon: ;ell3 when you say you never %ace these things because they=re too terri%ying to
%ace3 do you &ean Aust thatJ Bave you been terri%iedJ <o you /now that it=s too terri%ying to %ace
because you=ve %elt so&e terror or inti&ations o% terror when you sort o% get close to itJ 6r are
you sur&ising thisJ

!ob: I=& sur&ising$

"eon: ;hat do you actually /now about itJ I &ean e9perientially$ ;hat do you actually
/now %ro& what it=s been li/e3 when you=ve touched on it3 when you=ve got to the verge o% what
you=ve %eltJ

!ob: ;ell what I=ve %elt is a cognitive thing' that I would have to change so &any things
to live a &ore decent li%e3 to live a &ore har&onious peace%ul li%e3 and I don=t thin/ I have the
courage or the strength to do so$ It=s easier to struggle on in this &anner really$

Ste#e: ;ell I &ust say %ro& what you=ve been saying3 it doesn=t sound easy to go
throughF

!ob: I thin/ I=ve learnt over the years to %ind a way o% Aust shrugging &y shoulders and
Aust pushing on3 you /now$

"eon: ;hen you ca&e in today and within a %ew &inutes we had an e9change3 we Ao/ed
around a bit and also alluded to things going on in our lives that were either e9hausting or a
hassle3 or terrible3 or a bit &uch3 and you said QI need a therapistR3 &aybe Ao/ing and &aybe not$
2t the /ernel o% the Ao/e there=s a serious &o&ent3 but i% you thin/ you need a therapist3 or
therapy3 or you &ight bene%it %ro& so&ething called therapy3 what is it that you=re tal/ing about
and what best case scenario or outco&e &ight you be hoping %orJ

!ob: <espite &y con%ident e9terior3 I thin/ all &y li%e I have %elt inade?uate3 and
there%ore have to over+co&pensate in one way or another$ So I would li/e to rid &ysel% o% that
need to overco&e %eelings o% in%eriority and inade?uacy3 and to %eel a bit &ore loved$ The last
@therapy= I had was actually when I gave up alcoholF

"eon: ;as that about ten years ago nowJ

!ob: Ieah3 so&ething li/e that$ I had counselling %or a year with a psychotherapist who
is now a Soto Sen nun3 and she said to &eF

"eon: 2t Throssle BoleJ

!ob: Ies3 at Throssle Ball Driory$ 2nd when a%ter about nine &onths she said to &e that
the ne9t step %or &e was a spiritual oneFLpausesMFI=ve actually co&e to accept that there are
?uir/s o% &y personality which will never leave &e3 and I don=t thin/ they=re o% the type that will
lead &e to destroy other people3 so I don=t really care that &uch$ They &ight destroy &e a little
bit3 but I can &anage$ ;hat I really yearn %or is peace3 and I /now that can only co&e through
shutting o%% this world$

"eon: I don=t thin/ that peace co&es %ro& shutting out the world3 but what is it you
really wantJ

!ob: ;hat is it I really wantJ I want peace %ro& &y &ind3 Leon$ It doesn=t stop %or one
&o&ent3 until I=& asleep3 and even then it=s going on$ 2nd I Aust want to be able to sit ?uietly
and be in a space away %ro& &y active &ind$ 2nd hope%ully this will regenerate &e3 or /ind o%
energise &e3 I don=t /now$

"eon: Iour then counsellor3 now a Sen nun3 conveyed to you that the ne9t step %or you3
a%ter counselling with her3 was @spiritual=$ Could not what was happening up to then have been
@spiritual=J

!ob: I thin/ she was being %or&al$ I thin/ when she said the ne9t step is spiritual3 she
probably &eant I should do a spiritual practice$

"eon: ;ell i% you haven=t and don=t3 what are you waiting %orJ Maybe we should
consider what practice would be one you=d want to engage and wor/ with$ But now I want to go
bac/ to occasions li/e the recent @disaster= in Daris3 occasions that leave youF

!ob: <isheartenedF

"eon: Ies3 disheartened and angry$ Iou say you=ve co&e to see yoursel% as so&eone who
wor/s3 not so&eone who is$ Iou thin/ i% you don=t write boo/s3 or &a/e %il&s3 you=re nobody$
But you=ve never tried to %ace these things because they=re too terri%ying when you get close up$
Iou=re /eeping a certain distance %ro& it3 you haven=t allowed yoursel% to get closer to it3 by
whatever path' by yoursel%3 by &editating3 through therapy3 whatever$ Iou=re a%raid it=s going to
be too %rightening$ Can you say any &ore about thatJ ;hat do you suppose you=re a%raid o%J
Iou=re a bright guy3 sitting here3 telling &e that you /eep %uc/ing up your li%e in so&e way3 and
it=s becauseFwell3 you don=t /now3 you don=t let yoursel% get close to thisF

!ob: Dure &adness$ "eon: Go on$

!ob: I &ean the %ew &o&ents I=ve tried to thin/ about these things3 I thin/ what I=&
a%raid o% is being ordinary$ I suppose I=& scared o% being nobody$ 2nd I=ve co&e to de%ine being
so&ebody as being so&ebody in the world3 and I thin/ I=& scared o% Aust beco&ing &ysel%3 and
disappearing$

"eon: Really3 no really3 a%raid o% disappearingJ

!ob: Ies$

"eon: Being ordinary is not being so&ebody in the world3 &eaning so&eone o% visibleF

!ob: StatureF

"eon: 6% stature3 and you thin/ you can get that through wor/3 which is what you %eel
your li%e is about$ I /now that=s not the whole story3 because I /now you have a relationship with
so&eone who &eans a lot to youF

!ob: True$

"eon: 2nd that part o% your li%e &eans a lot to you3 and it wouldn=t be the %irst ti&eF

Ste#e: Maybe it=s ?uite e9tra+ordinary3 to be ordinary$

!ob: ;ell I wouldn=t /now3 because all &y li%e I=ve tried to be what I wasn=t$ 2nd what I
was is Aust a poor sch&uc/ in a poor ho&e3 and I was the %irst person in the %a&ily to do this3 the
%irst person in the %a&ily to do thatF

"eon: Iou /eep a distance %ro& trying to understand #hy you %uc/ yoursel% upF

Ste#e: Baving to sing %or your supper to get invited3 otherwise you don=t really belong in
the world3 because you=re really an outcast3 a deviant3 a non+starter$ 2nd then you /now in order
to get in3 you have to then do so&ething to show that you could entertain$ 2nd then o% course
there=s a certain despising o% the people you then have to sing %or3 to entertain3 in order to be
allowed to be in$

!ob: The thing is I thin/ there are psychological conse?uences o% social processes$ Li/e I
have never %elt I belonged anywhere$ In &y %a&ily I didn=t %eel I belonged3 then I was a child
%ro& a poor estate in a good school$ I never %elt I belonged there$ Then I went to university and I
was already &arried3 when everyone else was single3 so I didn=t %eel I belonged there$ 2nd then
when I beca&e a university acade&ic3 I didn=t really believe in anything3 so I didn=t really %eel I
belonged there3 and so it goes on$ Then I beca&e a %il&+&a/er3 but I never had a career as a %il&+
&a/er3 but I had had a career as an acade&ic3 so I didn=t %eel I belonged there either$ 2nd I thin/
what you=re saying3 Leon3 is dead right3 because I thin/ it leads to not ta/ing enough
responsibilityFI &ean I=& great3 as we said be%ore3 at starting things$ 8inishing the&3 it see&s
to &e3 always ends up as a big proble&$

"eon: Maybe all three o% us have a bit o% a proble& %inishing thingsF

Ste#e: In one way or another$

"eon: Ieah3 that=s right3 and o% course you involve other people in your starting but not
%inishing$ It=s not Aust that you can start so&ething but can=t %inish it$ In each o% two cases we can
cite3 i$ e$ the organisation o% con%erences in London and in New Ior/ over the past year3 you tried
to pass on your responsibility %or it to &e3 but without being straight about it$

!ob: ;ell3 not even without being straight3 but Aust I hope that things will be 6:$

"eon: IeahFNot only @hope=$ Iou are also o%ten very reassuring to the other3 li/e to &e$
Q<on=t worry Leon3 it=s going to be %ine$ Iou=re worrying too &uch$ It=s %ine3 there=s plenty o%
ti&e3 it=s all in hand$ Q 2nd it=s not$ There=s not plenty o% ti&e3 it isn=t all in hand3 and it=s badly
organisedC you haven=t actually thought it through$ So you see& to stop yoursel%3 or you don=t
allow yoursel%3 or so&ehow there=s so&e bloc/ in actually thin/ing it through3 because i% we
went through it care%ully3 Aust li/e we=re tal/ing care%ully about this3 we=d probably agree that o%
course so&e things have to be done3 it=s not Aust going to wor/ out3 that=s cloud+cuc/oo landH

Ste#e: There=s also a bit o% sel%+sabotage going on about this %inishing o% the boo/3 li/e
you %inished the boo/ practically with this last interview3 and then it=s blown+up3 so now you
can=t %inish it$ Iou can=t allow it to be %inished$

!ob: I always do in the end3 butF

Ste#e: 2gainst great odds3 against great struggleF

"eon: Listen we=re tal/ing about a guy who gets ?uite a lot o% things doneF

!ob: But the interesting thing is they never are %inished e9actly as I want the& to be$

"eon: No$ 2re they any goodJ

!ob: ;ell that=s %or other people to say$

"eon: ;hat do you thin/J

!ob: So&e are3 so&e aren=t$

"eon: ;ell3 so&eti&es it wor/s3 I &ean li/e the conversations with Ronnie that got
sabotaged %ro& being the /ind o% boo/ you wanted to do3 or boo/s you wanted to do3
nevertheless you got outFIou basically put out a boo/ that reads li/e a raw transcript3 and it=s a
winner3 it=s a great contribution$ It=s good that it=s out there$

!ob: But I see& to be searching %or so&ething3 so&e ulti&ate pat on the bac/ that I
/now really won=t co&e$

"eon: ;hat would this pat on the bac/ be telling youJ ;hat would it being conveyingJ

!ob: Derhaps a huggy pat$

"eon: 2 huggy patF$

!ob: But I=& too clever %or that bullshit as well3 you /nowF

"eon: It &ay o%ten be bullshit3 but it &ay not be$ There=s always the chance that people
can actually be openly and honestly direct with each other3 and a%%ectionate$ 2nd respect%ul3 and3
you /now3 friendly.

!ob: 2nd you see another ingredientF

"eon: That=s hard %or you to believe3 isn=t itJ So&ething tells you when I say this3 that
that=s right3 but it=sF

Ste#e: ;ell o% course it=s the wor/ o% belonging$ In order to belong you=ve got to be this
or that3 or have so&e credential3 that gives you per&ission to be in the roo& %or e9a&ple as
%il&&a/er3 or as author3 as interviewer3 without that you collapse$

!ob: 2bsolutely3 absolutely$ ;hat I really want is peaceFpeace away %ro& having to
endlessly earn huge su&s o% &oney Aust to e9ist$ I &ean3 the econo&ic %actor to &e is not
insigni%icantF

Ste#e: Iou /now there is a psycho+econo&ic %actor3 and a psycho+econo&ic %actor is
trust$ I% you trust one another it=s &uch &ore li/ely that &oney will %low between you3 and will
be diverted in the direction o% people you trust3 not in the direction o% the people who %uc/ you
about$ It=s hu&an relationships that are really the world$ It=s through relationships that &oney
%lows$ I% you are trying to cran/ up your per%or&ance3 but underneath you=re not really there3 it=s
going to be hard or i&possible %or you to divert the &oney strea& in your direction$ Iou=re going
to %ind that people shy away3 and don=t connectC there=ll be a disconnection3 things will go
wrong$ It=s getting to /now one another over ti&e3 having &ore o% a connection over ti&e3
sooner or later so&ething will co&e o% that3 I don=t /now what3 and you don=t /now what3 and
we don=t /now what3 but this is the start' get the relationship right and the rest will %ollow$
Eventually perhaps &oney will circulate %ro& our wor/ing together as what you could call a
pledged group$ I% we try to contrive it3 to pretend or &a/e it up3 it won=t wor/$

!ob: It=s this thing about belonging which is at the /ey o% it$ I &ean li/e I co&e here3 and
I do %eel a&ongst %riends$ Now I did %uc/ Leon over badly with the New Ior/ con%erence3 in one
way or another3 but I still loved it when we had that little &eal in Manhattan$ But I don=t want to
spend nearly all &y li%e %eeling that it=s &e versus the world$ I %uc/ing hate it$ 2nd &ost o% the
ti&e that=s e9actly how I %eel$ I %eel as though it is &e versus the world3 and I don=t belong to
anything$ I don=t belong to &y %a&ily3 I have a sister I never spea/ to3 both parents are deadF
LpausesMFIou two belong to the D23 %or e9a&pleF

Ste#e: Iou=ve got to realise that the D2 is a bit o% a Ao/e$ I &ean in a certain sense it=s a
Groucho Mar9 clubFits &e&bers are those who wouldn=t belong to any club that would have
the& as &e&bers$ Most o% us have a %eeling that we don=t belong3 which is what brings us
together$

!ob: It=s interesting that the wo&an I=ve %allen in love with is si&ilar in a way$ Because
she co&es %ro& a travelling co&&unity3 and everyone hates gypsies and travellers$ She=s always
%elt alienated3 so she beca&e a lawyer$ So I thin/ that=s one o% the reasons we get along$ I yearn
to be part o% so&ething3 which is why I /ic/ &ysel% when I start these things and don=t %inish
the&3 or %uc/ the& up$ I /ic/ &ysel% a%terwards when I /now it=s another lost opportunity$ ;hat
peace o% &ind have I gotJ None$ 2nd that is horrible$

"eon: <o you %eel horrible &ost o% the ti&eJ

!ob: IeahFI &ean3 I=& always surprised by AoyFe9cuse the phraseFbecauseF

"eon: ;hy e9cuse the phraseJ

!ob: 6h3 it Aust sounds li/e psycho+babbleFI=& always surprised by Aoy because it is
such a surprise3 because &ost o% the ti&e I=& worried3 Aust li/e &y &other$ I used to say to her3
Q;hy are you worriedJR She=d reply3 QBecause I=ve got nothing to worry aboutR$

Ste#e: ;ell I &ust say I=& not convinced by the lady you saw3 who said that you had
gone as %ar as you could go3 and that you can only go %urther i% it=s spiritual$ Things are
interconnectedFthe personal3 the spiritual3 the inter+personal3 and the ways we relate to others$
Iou need to %ind a /ind o% integration o% all these real&sFthe e&otional3 intellectual3 spiritual3
everything$ Iou need to align all these real&s$ It see&s now you %eel all over the place3 going
this way and thatF&oney is this way3 people are that way3 and love is so&ewhere else$ Meeting
a therapist on a regular basis beco&es a %ulcru& to leverage align&ent$ It could be &editation3
but therapy is a /ind o% a &editation$ I &ean we=re not in a therapy situation$ ;e are three people
in the roo& in conversation about therapy$ 2lso Leon is a %riend3 so he=s not the person to be in
therapy with$ 2gain we could raise an interesting ?uestion about this$

"eon: It see&s an interesting ?uestion$ ;hy not three people in a roo&J There is no a
priori reason that would preclude therapy with three people$ Now we &ight say that the %ace+to+
%ace3 the i&&ediacy o% the %ace+to+%ace3 really happens when it=s %ace+to+%ace3 two and not three
F

Ste#e: Bob3 you=ve been wor/ing and not beingFnot being at ho&e in the world$
Therapy gives you the ti&e and space to beco&e at ho&e in the world$ It did beco&e that %or &e$
<uring &y therapy I %ound &ysel%3 %or the %irst ti&e3 at ho&e and having a sense that it was all
right %or &e to be here$ It too/ seven years3 but it ta/es ti&e3 it doesn=t happen overnight$

"eon: I was pic/ing up on your co&&ent about three3 and considering the i&&ediacy o%
the %ace+to+%ace3 un&ediated by a third presence$ Nevertheless that %ace+to+%ace can happen at
any &o&ent3 at any ti&e3 between any o% us$ So while I thin/ setting up a %or&al therapy in
ter&s o% one+to+one3 and at a certain ti&e and place3 is help%ul3 and &ay o%ten be opti&al3 given
various considerations and li&itations3 it=s not necessarily the only way to do it3 or the best way
to do it in all situations$

Ste#e: ;ell I thin/ it=s the process and the ti&e that it ta/es to go through whatever the
process is3 and in the end it is &ysterious$ Derhaps it a&ounts to a /ind o% a rebirthing3 a being
born in the world3 an e9istential birth3 not Aust a physical one$ It=s so&ething that you can=t do by
yoursel%3 even though only you can do it$

"eon: Iou /now RonnieFat least seven years be%ore he died3 or &aybe even &ore than
ten years be%ore he diedFstarted doing one+o%% consultations with people$ This was partly %or
reasons o% econo&y3 in various senses$ I thin/ ;innicott did &ore o% this as he got older too3
with /ids$ 2nyhow3 it=s interesting to consider that both o% these guys3 at a ti&e o% their lives
when they had a lot o% e9perience behind the&3 %elt that ?uite a lot could happen in a single
session with so&eone$ 2nd I thin/ here too o% Sen people who tal/ o% a sudden path and gradual
path3 and the sudden people say there are not gradual incre&ents to pro%ound awa/ening3 it
happens$ It happens when you=re ready3 but it=s not a &atter o% gradual incre&ents$ 6r it happens
when you=re ready and ripe3 which usually &eans having arrived to the point say where you can
sit down ?uietly3 and you aren=t restless and distracted$ It=s not li/ely to happen when you=re
restless$ But it &ay re?uire the co&bination o% that and so&eone who in so&e way can give a
helping hand3 a teacher3 or it could be even so&ething ?uite %ortuitous3 when so&eone is ?uite
ready3 probably wholeheartedly and single+&indedly ready$ ;ell3 so&ething o% that order can
happen at any &o&ent3 at any ti&e3 between any o% us$ 4nli/ely and rare as it &ay be3 it=s a
possibility we can=t discount or ignore and really need to consider very care%ully$ So although3
yes3 therapy ta/es ti&e3 it=s not at all i&possible that a lot &ore could be happening a lot sooner
or swi%ter than it o%ten does$ 2nd I thin/ the distinction between the spiritual as separate %ro&
so&ething that happens in therapy3 or ought to be happening in therapy3 isn=t valid$ 2nd the older
I get3 the less o% a distinction there see&s to be$ There=s no ?uestion3 %or &e3 as to the value o%
certain practices o% &editation and yoga3 especially with the bene%it o% access to good3
e9perienced3 seasoned teachers$ But I thin/ o% &y wor/ as a &editation$ I so&eti&es loo/ at the
good side o% being overta9ed in ter&s o% &y practice3 teaching3 responsibilities here at <iora&a
2rts3 responsibilities with the D2$ It=s really too &uch3 too &uch co&ing in and co&ing out o%
various ori%icesH But the good side o% that %or &e is 6:3 i% I don=t drop %irst3 &aybe I=ll sort o%
brea/ through in so&e wayFLpausesMFSo3 you /now3 I thin/ that the clearer3 &ore open+
hearted3 open+&inded3 open+listening and awa/e I can be3 the &ore chance there is that that sort
o% a thing can happen sooner3 &ore o%ten3 &ore deeply between &e and anybody I=& &eeting
with$

Ste#e: There are &any levels and the ones you &ention are crucial$ But I want to spea/
o% Aust co&ing in %ro& the stor&3 and %eeling at ho&e$ Being in therapy is li/e being in the eye o%
the stor&$ Iou have that one hour3 two hours3 three hours a wee/3 whatever$ 2nd you co&e in
and then you co&e into the eye o% it3 because there=s a way that you can have this asylu& here3
and a peace3 that we=re in peace3 that you can sin/ into it$ 2nd that really is enor&ous leverageC
it=s a %ulcru&3 li/e an 2rchi&edian point3 %ro& which you can leverage your entire li%e3 and shi%t
it$

!ob: Can I as/ you both a ?uestionJ Bave you lost both o% your parentsJ

"eon: I have$

Ste#e: I haven=t lost &y &u&$

"eon: I have3 ?uite a while bac/$

!ob: I lost &ine when I was in &y early twenties3 and I o%ten %eel that there is no+one to
turn to$ Si&ple as that$

"eon: I didn=t %eel there was anyone to turn to when I had the&$

Ste#e: I didn=t either$

"eon: I couldn=t turn to the&$

!ob: ;ell I couldn=t anyway3 but they were alive though$

"eon: They were thereF

!ob: They were there$ 2lso3 when I /new Ronnie3 he used to give &e advice about all
sorts o% things$

"eon: Steve said one o% the things people can co&e to %eel in therapy is that sense o%
belonging3 o% co&ing in %ro& the stor&3 being in the eye o% the stor&3 and having an asylu&3 or
we could also spea/ o% a port3 or a sa%e haven in a stor&$ But the thing is so&e psychotherapists
and psychoanalysts3 will3 i% so&eone is into belonging3 tend to reduce this &atter to trans%erence$
But what=s going on now between usFin that there is a sense o% asylu& and belonging3 whatever
trans%erence ele&ents there &ight beFit=s real3 it=s so&ething going on between people in the
roo&3 so&ething going on between us3 and i% there=s any sense o% belonging %ro& it3 it=s real$ It=s
happening here and now3 whatever else$ Li/e what happened with you and Ronnie3 that he said
to his partner to treat you li/e a son3 and in %act you loo/ed up at hi& and he was a %ather %igure3
and it was nice getting advice %ro& hi&3 so right3 you could say it=s so&e /ind o% a trans%erence$
Iou could also say it wasn=t a trans%erence3 because he was treating you li/e a son3 andF

Ste#e: Ronnie was genuinely lovingC the the&e o% his teaching was an awa/ening to love$

"eon: There was a bond3 and that=s what=s o%ten &issed in the %or&al therapy ga&e3 that
it=s so&ething %or real3 that there are two people in the roo&3 and yes3 it=s i&portant to pay
care%ul attention to what=s being carried over %ro& other ti&es and places and relationships into
this one3 but particularly because they=re inter%ering with what could be going on between us$
CHAPTER S*+

PO"*T*CS AN& PSYCHOTHERAPY

In May #..- <rs Gans3 Redler and Mullan3 together with >ohn Beaton3 Barbara Latha&3
8rancis Bu9ley and others shared a con%erence in New Ior/ with an e9+Mar9ist political activist
Ted 6ld&ar/$ 6ld&ar/ currently writes and directs plays3 engages in @social therapy= and writes
sophisticated sel%+help boo/s$ The event o% the con%erence is re%lected upon3 as well as politics3
therapy3 and the Congress o% the <ialectics o% Liberation3 an event that too/ place so&e three
decades earlier$ ONa&es o% the New Ior/ institutions3 associations and persons have been
changed$ P

!ob: Shall we tal/ about the other wee/end in New Ior/Fthe con%erence we shared
with TedJ 2nd the %act that they invited &e on their cable show3 and not you$ I was easy &eat3
you were &ore proble&aticF

"eon: My ta/e on that is they were being care%ul$ I had been invited3 but a%ter they &et
&e the invitation wasn=t alluded to again$

!ob: ;ell they realised that I=& &uch &ore easy going than you$ I %ind it very di%%icult to
believe in anything3 which isn=t to say that I will Aust stand by and let the NaGis barge in3 but I
certainly don=t believe in anything that &uch$ 2nd also I %ind li%e such a struggle anyway3
without trying to hold on to certain ideas$

"eon: Can I point out to you that I wasn=t trying to hold on to certain ideas3 that=s not
why I had trouble with the&$ It=s because I as/ed a %ew ?uestions$

!ob: No3 no3 no I &ean3 no$ The di%%erence between &e and you3 Leon3 vis.a.vis this
New Ior/ gig3 is that I can see so&e o% the bullshit and so&e o% the nonsense they=re tal/ing3 but
I can=t be bothered to ?uestion it$ Iou can3 and than/ God there are people in the world li/e you$
I thin/ that what really did surprise &e was the 8riday night gig3 when we all went on
stage$ I %ound Ted=s introduction o% his @&entally distressed patients+cu&+%riends= a bit theatrical$

"eon: ;ell it was theatrical$

!ob: It was theatrical$ Steve said to &e at the end o% the evening that it was li/e a
religious revival &eeting$ ;hat I couldn=t stand was the way that everyone was using the word
@&ad= as i% it=s li/e3 you /now3 I had a cold yesterday3 but it=s gone today$

"eon: ;aving the %lag o% &adness$

!ob: Ieah3 but it wasn=t &adness$

"eon: ;hen so&e o% Ted=s people were up on the stage with hi&3 and spo/e when
introduced by hi&3 every once in a while there=d be laughter$ The audience3 as we discovered
later3 was al&ost entirely co&posed o% Ted=s %ollowers who were laughing in unison3 al&ost as
i%3 and perhaps in %act3 on cue$ 2nd I wondered what was going on there3 because I didn=t thin/
&ost o% what got that response was particularly %unny$ Maybe they were in+Ao/es$

!ob: 6ne thing that did a&use &e on the 8riday night was when I went outside3 it was
pouringFtorrential rain$ In a big li&o outside was Ted with a young girl3 and there=s a guy
outside with a huge u&brella3 waiting %or hi& to eventually &a/e his entrance$ I thought the
whole thing was biGarre3 hi& waiting outside li/e a roc/ star in a li&o3 and then wal/ing in li/e a
tra&p$ But what really disturbed &e was on the Saturday in the se&inars3 in the groups3 there
were about twenty+three o% us3 and at least twenty+one were people who were connected with the
<owntown Social Therapy Drogra&3 and they were all saying to &e how nice I was3 and how
they li/ed the %act that I disagreed with the&FR;e understand where you=re co&ing %ro& and
we /now you=re wrong3 but we=ve got sy&pathy %or youR$ Every ti&e I raised &y voice or
suggested an alternative argu&ent3 they were saying things li/e QSurely we can all agree and be
happy3 and share this space togetherR$ They see&ed to be absolutely incapable o% rational
argu&ent$ I %ound it totally disturbing$ They see&ed to want to wash people=s brains %or the ne9t
political step$
2nd there=s a whole big e&phasis on co&&unal living3 which I &entioned to one o% the
wo&en in the group3 and she went craGy$

"eon: ;hat do you &ean she went craGyJ

!ob: 2ngry3 really angry at &e because I=d raised this$

"eon: That isn=t even a co&&ent on their inability to argue rationally$ ;hat you=re
saying now is that when you as/ed a ?uestion3 that &ight have opened out so&ething about the
way they live and the way they are3 they got very angry and de%ensive$ That wasn=t even arguing
rationally$ She didn=t want to spea/ about so&ething that you would thin/ is so basic$
2nd that re&inds &e o% the last night when the groups were giving their %eed+bac/3 and
>ohn Beaton3 as one o% the convenors o% the second group3 was saying so&ething about %ascis&$
I don=t re&e&ber now how it ca&e up$ But >ohn brought it up3 and >ohn was not accusing the&
o% being %ascists$ Not at all$ Be was saying so&ething about %ascis& that ca&e up3 %or hi&$ 2nd
then I said I=d li/e to say so&ething about the issues o% %ascis&3 and political correctness3 that I
thin/ is a proble& on both sides o% the 2tlantic$ I wanted to relate how that issue ca&e up in and
%or our group in London3 the Dhiladelphia 2ssociation$ I told the& o% our e9perience3 which we=ll
no doubt discuss over the ne9t %ew &onths3 and I as/ed the& what they thought about it$ 2nd
then a wo&an3 who had been in a group that I was co+convening with Stella 2ster earlier in the
day3 and who had been per%ectly %riendly3 all o% a sudden got up and angrily de&anded Q;hy are
we tal/ing about thisJ ;hat=s this got to do with usJHJ ;hy are we tal/ing about NaGis and
%ascistsJ I don=t /now why we=re tal/ing about thisHR 2nd so&eone else said in &uch the sa&e
vein3 QIeah3 why are we tal/ing about thisJ ;hat=s it got to do with usJR I said Q;ell3 I didn=t
say it had to do with you3 I said it had to do with us and that proble&s li/e this &ight occur
anywhere$ I% it hasn=t happened in your group yet3 it &ight well$ I can tell you none o% us
e9pected it in our group$ Q 2nd at that point Linda stopped the discussion and says that we=re
going to see the %il&Fbe%ore I could %ully respond' QRight3 lights out$ 8il&HRFwhich would
have happened right then i% so&eone %ro& her group3 %ro& the <owntown Drogra&3 hadn=t said
Q;ait a &inute3 the third group hasn=t reported bac/ yetR$ 2nd as soon as that was %inished3
be%ore I could get bac/ to responding to the ?uestion or continuing with &y story' QRight3 lights
out$ 8il&H LclapsMR Now3 that=s censorship$ That was stopping a discussion$ That was &y view o%
it$ Bow did you guys read thatJ

Ste#e: 6h3 no ?uestion$ To &e the whole thing has to be e&bedded in a conte9t3 which is
a long discussion about the relationship o% psychotherapy and politics$ 8or e9a&ple3 when
Ronnie %ound hi&sel% involved in the <ialectics o% Liberation Oas you /nowP3 he got a lot o% stic/
%ro& <avid Cooper3 and
<avid Cooper %ans3 %or not being radical enough politically$ They %elt that the real
proble& was political3 and that the whole issue o% psychology is really a /ind o% a side+show3 an
e9cuse %or not tac/ling the really hard issues o% econo&ics and politics$ 2nd a radical approach
to psychiatry and the trans%or&ation o% the bourgeois institutions can only co&e through political
revolution$ 2nd i% you=re not on the side o% the solution3 you=re part o% the proble&$ 2nd o%
course these people %eel that we3 by being de&ocratic3 liberal and there%ore elitist3 are involved in
supporting the &ar/et econo&y and the capitalist syste& which they despise$ It=s with good
reason that they criticise us3 %ro& the point o% view o% their ideology$ So it=s not a ?uestion o%
whether you believe or don=t believe in so&ething$ ;hatever you do is ta/ing a political stand3
it=s about where you put your body3 with who&3 and in the na&e o% what3 and %or what sta/es3
what /ind o% cash %lows or lac/ o% %lows3 and so on$ Now3 we are de%initely in an antithetical
relationship to the position that the %riends o% Ted ta/e up$ There=s no ?uestion$

"eon: ;ell one o% the thingsF

Ste#e: But we didn=t get to discuss it3 because one o% the proble&s o% politics is power$
2nd one o% the issues o% power is how you use it$ 2nd you don=t3 in a power political situation3
have gentle&an=s rules$

"eon: The Mar?uis o% Kueensberry=sF

Ste#e: The Kueensberry rules$ Iou don=t %ollow the Kueensberry rules o% %air play when
it co&es to the use o% political power$ Leon can be ?uite naive about this at ti&es3 not realising
that this is the situation3 that it=s a power struggle rather than a possible dialogue$

"eon: I tend to give people the bene%it o% the doubt3 and a& so&eti&es slow to begin to
doubt the bene%it o% thatH Iou re%erred to the <ialectics o% Liberation con%erence$ ;hatever else
was going on at the <ialectics3 there was no censorship o% people$ Deople were allowed to spea/$
So&eti&es they shouted3 people shouted other people downF

Ste#e: Because it was under the sponsorship o% the Dhiladelphia 2ssociation3 which is a
&ore open and anarchic place3 and I thin/ Ronnie would have %ound probably the at&osphere o%
the <owntown Drogra& ?uite negative3 because I thin/ he would see it as antithetical to his
anarchic way o% behavingF

!ob: I thin/ he would have said these guys were Mic/ey MouseFintellectual pyg&iesF
I don=t want to sound anti+pyg&y3 but do you /now what I &eanJ

Ste#e: Intellectually it was very wea/$ Its intellectual calibre was very wea/$ But that=s
not the point$ The point is that socially they have a &ove&ent$

!ob: They /ept tal/ing about @social per%or&atory therapy=$ ;hat the %uc/ was that all
aboutJ

Ste#e: ;hat it is about is that you sign upFyou sign up3 and you beco&e a &e&ber$ 2nd
there%ore you belong3 because a lot o% people don=t %eel they belong$

!ob: In li%eJ

Ste#e: In li%e3 as we were spea/ing a&ongst ourselves not so long ago$

!ob: So you sit in a group3 and you say to so&eone that you wished you @had &ore
con%idence=3 and I get up and say3 QSteve3 be &ore con%identH Der%or& con%idence3 and eventually
you will beco&e con%identRJ

Ste#e: E9actly3 e9actly$

!ob: It isn=t &ore than that3 is itJ

Ste#e: I thin/ it=s e9actly that way3 e9actly that$

!ob: I% we can get bac/ to what you were saying about the roots o% politics in therapy$ I
always believedFagainst Deter Sedgwic/ %or e9a&ple3 who was Ronnie=s sternest criticFthat
Ronnie did believe that there was so&e connection between the &icro+politics o% the %a&ily3 and
the wider social structures o% the world$

"eon: 6ne o% the ter&s that Ronnie used in thin/ing about %a&ilies3 pic/ing it up %ro&
Mar93 was &ysti%ication$ Be %ound that in %a&ilies where so&eone ca&e to be diagnosed
schiGophrenic3 so&e /ind o% &ysti%ication was o%ten present$ The people doing the &ysti%ying
usually are in power3 usually the adults$

Ste#e: Can I co&e in hereJ Because I thin/ we=re at a very crucial point in our tal/ about
the relation o% politics and therapy$ The whole idea o% politics has been typically based on
i&perialis& and totalitarianis&$ 2ll politics is predicated on a /ind o% totalisation3 an
incorporation or appropriation o% a collective3 into a syste& de%ined by an ideology$ 2nd even the
so+called de&ocratic syste& o%ten turns out to be de&agogic$ Deople win power through
persuasion3 which doesn=t necessarily &ean that there is Austice3 %air play3 and individual respect
and honouring o% individual di%%erences$ There=s rather an a&alga&ation into totalising groups3
which beco&e our &acro+and &icro+institutions3 run by people who identi%y with this syste&atic
or bureaucratic approach$ Now the trouble with all o% these politics is that they don=t start out
with ethics3 or with an honouring o% the other3 and the other person=s di%%erences as otherC and
others are not totalisableFyou can=t integrate the& without losing their otherness$ So it doesn=t
really &atter what you call your politics3 as long as you have a politics that starts out politically3
which &eans doesn=t start out ethically or @psychologically=3 you will never get away %ro&
violence$

"eon: But @ethically= is di%%erent %ro& @psychologically=$

Ste#e: By psychologically I &ean ethically$ This is why I thin/ Ronnie didn=t choose to
operate &acro+politically3 because changes at the top would be no real change$ I% you get one
person wanting a syste& under one ideology3 and you change it %or another ideology3 there=s no
real change$ until you really %ind ways to change the way people treat one another3 you don=t get
real change$

"eon: 2nother di%%erence that=s i&plicit in what you=re saying is that the political syste&3
whether it=s transparently ideological or not3 would clai& to be based on /nowledge$

Ste#e: 2lways$

"eon: Now the ethics that we=re on about isn=t based on /nowledgeF

Ste#e: Not at all$

"eon: I disagree with lin/ing psychology to ethics as psychology is /nowledge+based$

Ste#e: ;ell by psychology I &eant practical psychology in 8reud=s or Ronnie=s senseFa
therapeutic approach3 which has to do with a one+to+one relationship$ 2nd this was what was
wrong with the <owntown Drogra&+it operated an ideology3 it was through and through
ideological$ 2nd there%ore tyrannical$ It was based on a uni%ying syste&3 e&bodied in the leader3
TedC this &ade it to &y &ind a cult$

!ob: ;ere you at the <ialectics o% Liberation con%erence as well3 SteveJ

Ste#e: No I wasn=t3 but I read the transcripts3 and /nowing Ronnie3 /nowing the way he
wor/ed3 I could i&agine he was on %or engaging$ Engaging is having a go at whatever
conversation is going$ Be wanted conversation to happen3 and he was deeply involved in a
reading o% Mar9ist thin/ing3 with <avid Cooper$ The Mar9ist in%luence o% course was very
strong in the student protest &ove&ent3 and in%or&ed the si9ties criti?ue o% the Establish&ent$
2nd Ronnie beco&e so&ething o% a hero o% that &ove&ent3 because his analysis o% the politics
o% the %a&ilyFhis &icro+social criti?ueFtoo/ Mar9 %orward %ro& the &acro+social$ Be thought
Mar9 %ro& the perspective o% 8reud$ Ronnie privileged the one+to+one3 the one %or the 6ther3
prior to totalising &ove&ents and totalising groups3 which however well+intentioned3 would
ulti&ately subordinate individuals to group &entality$ 2t which point3 responsibility to the 6ther
goes out the window and you get &ob rule$ There has been a constant criti?ue by political
activists against psychotherapy$ They say therapy is decadent3 because it=s not political3 but it=s
the other way around$ Dolitics is evil without ethics$

"eon: The other way around beingJ

Ste#e: Dolitics is decadent3 inso%ar as it is practised as pure power+tactics3 not ta/ing into
consideration each and every other individual=s singularity and value3 regarding each and every
other individual as pri&ary3 be%ore any ideology3 &ove&ent3 group or progra&&e$

!ob: Leon3 in #.0(3 were you &uch &ore interested and involved in politics than you are
nowJ

"eon: I had been @politically active= in the 4S in the early si9ties3 be%ore I ca&e to
London$ But I didn=t thin/ o% it as politics$ In &edical school I ca&e to be aware o% &any things
that were going on in the world3 and began to consider that &y own govern&ent=s views and
actions were very &uch open to ?uestion$ I hadn=t really wo/en up politically3 or in &any other
ways3 at all$ In &edical school I began to be concerned about civil liberties and the growing
preparation %or and threat o% ther&o+nuclear war$ My cut+o%% slu&ber was partly a %unction o%
going to high school and university during and Aust a%ter the McCarthy era$

Ste#e: Blac/listing3 etc$

"eon: 2nd there wasn=t great deal o% political discussion$ In &edical school I began
reading @I$8$ Stone=s ;ee/ly= and @Deace News=3 listening to and having conversations on world
a%%airs and the 2&erican scene3 beco&ing &ore politically aware and critical3 and getting
involved in protesting against the resu&ption o% nuclear testing$ I pic/eted the ;hite Bouse %or
three days over that issue3 %asting with hal% a doGen or eight others3 and went on a @general stri/e
%or peace= in Manhattan$ ;hen signs saying @nuclear shelter= went up in the hospital I wrote a
letter protesting against this3 writing that I thought this was preparing people to accept the idea o%
ther&o+nuclear war and that3 as @shelter=3 it was probably &isleading$ I thought it was a wrong
thing %or the &edical school to get involved with this3 and got about eighty %aculty &e&bers Oat
2lbert EinsteinP to sign the letter3 including heads o% depart&ents and &aAor lecturers3 and sent
this as an open letter to the head o% Civil <e%ence %or the City o% New Ior/3 with copies o% it to
all the &aAor New Ior/ newspapers$ Not one o% the& printed it$ I received a dis&issive two or
three sentence reply %ro& the Civil <e%ence chie% si9 &onths later$ So3 things li/e that began to
wa/e &e up tooF

Ste#e: The arrogance o% powerH

"eon: 2&erican troops were in Nietna&$ They weren=t yet @at war=3 they were called
@&ilitary advisers=$ I was a paediatric intern or house&an at >acobi Bospital3 ne9t door to
Einstein3 when the call by the dra%t OconscriptionP board to report %or &y @physical= ca&e$ I had
the &edical e9a&ination and then had to answer ?uestions3 one o% which was so&ething li/e
QCan you thin/ o% any reason why you shouldn=t serve in the 2r&ed 8orces o% the 4nited
StatesJR I %ound &ysel% writing QyesR3 and soon a%terwards applied %or conscientious obAection
status$ 2t that ti&e3 you had to answer the %irst ?uestion3 Q<o you believe in a supre&e beingJR3
yes or no$ Now i% you wrote QnoR3 your application was auto&atically reAected$ I wrote QyesR$
The ne9t ?uestion was so&ething li/e Q;hat is the basis o% your belie% in a supre&e beingJR
;ell3 I didn=t @believe= in a @supre&e being= as such3 so I said that &y belie% was based on a
4niversal 6rder and a 4niversal Ethic$ The universal 6rder was si&ply the order o% things as
they are3 and the 4niversal Ethic was love$ I said I &ight not be able to love3 and surely was
barely able to at the ti&e3 but I could3 at least3 re%rain %ro& /illing or colluding with /illing$ I
argued that the role o% a doctor in the ar&ed %orces was analogous to that o% a tan/ &echanic who
had to attend to da&aged tan/s to get the& bac/ into battle3 that the doctor would be as/ed to
support the war e%%ort3 to get the troops bac/ into battle3 and not %eel obliged to any o% the
@ene&y= wounded$ 2nd that that was not how I understood the oath o% the physician$

The application was turned down by &y local dra%t board3 the reAection based on their
reading that &ine was a Qpolitical and philosophicalR and not a religious position$ I appealed
several ti&es3 right up to the 2ttorney General o% the united States3 whose representative3 the
<ean o% a law school3 heard &y case and agreed I had a right to be considered as a Co$

I had been ready to go to Aail rather than serving in the ar&ed %orces3 thin/ing the &atter
was one o% doing what see&ed right3 not @political= in the usual3 i&poverished sense$ <an Seeger3
who had advised &e on the proble&atics o% conscientious obAection3 was called up so&e years
later and said he did not believe in a supre&e being$ 2nd he appealed3 unsuccess%ully3 to the
2ttorney General and to the Dresident o% the 4nited States$ Be then appealed to the Supre&e
Court3 and they accepted the case3 Seeger versus the united States$ Seeger argued that the united
States had no right to as/ hi& whether he believed in a supre&e being or not as the basis o%
granting conscientious obAection3 because this was a violation o% the separation o% Church and
State3 and unconstitutional$ The Supre&e Court agreedH Bats o%% to <an and to the Court %or that
decisionH

2 %ew years earlier I had got angry and %rightened when people were &urdered in the
South %or as/ing and wor/ing %or Austice3 and had wanted to be part o% thatFto bear #itness to
what was happening and to e9press &y solidarity with the Civil Rights Move&ent$ So I went
down to Mississippi in #.0) with &edical civil rights wor/ers3 and was in Sel&a3 2laba&a in
#.01Fshortly be%ore I le%t %or the 4:Fwhen the state troopers attac/ed peace%ul de&onstrators3
led by Martin Luther :ing3 on a civil rights &arch to the State capital$ I got a whi%% o% what the
NaGis &ust have been li/e$ 2t least thats changed %or the betterH

So &y getting involved with Laing was part o% that sort o% engage&ent$ So&ething
appealed about what he was into3 although I didn=t really understand what he was into$ 2nd &y
involve&ent with the <ialectics had so&ething to do with that bac/ground$ I=d invited Sto/ley
Car&ichael to co&e3 having co&e across hi& in the South$

This3 by the way3 is what Ronnie ridiculed in ,ad to 7e *or!al. Be was putting down
the @2&ericans=$ I=d say Ronnie was o%% there$ I was spaced+out3 and overly ideological3 and
perhaps too caught up in unthought%ul white liberalness$ But there was also so&ething ?uite real
and i&portant about it3 about wa/ing up to so&e things3 and saying hey3 I have to ta/e a stand3 I
have to be so!e#here with this$ one way or another3 a! and #e all are involved$ 2nd good
things ca&e o% it$

!ob: The <ialectics con%erence was ?uite a&aGing3 wasn=t itFgetting all those spea/ers
over %ro& the 4S2' Gregory Bateson3 2llen Ginsberg3 Sto/ely Car&ichaelF

"eon: M&$ It was ?uite a&aGing$

!ob: 2nd Daul Good&an$ <o you %eel that there=s a di&inution these days o% that /ind o%
radical discourseJ

"eon: I don=t hear o% that /ind o% conversation going on3 with that /ind o% e9cite&ent3 at
the level o% intelligence and co&&it&ent o% so&e o% those people$ I thin/ that was %airly unusual$

Ste#e: That was a brilliant period %or political discussion$

"eon: It was a conversation a%ter all$

Ste#e: It was a conversation$ The word polisFpoliticsFraises the ?uestion o% how are
we going to live the good li%eJ 2nd I don=t thin/ we=re any less perple9edFi% anything we=re
&ore perple9edFthan the ancients3 as to how it &ight be possible %or us as a collective o% hu&an
beings to live the good li%e together$ There are &ore pressures than ever be%ore on our hu&an
collective$ This calls into ?uestion and &a/es &ore proble&atic3 &ore di%%icult3 living the good
li%e3 and violence is an even greater proble&$ I% you do want to start %ro& ethics3 as I believe we
do3 not only as a thought e9peri&ent3 but as a li%e e9peri&ent3 that is3 putting the other %irst3 one
o% the %irst ?uestions you co&e up against is what happens when so&eone violates youJ <o you
%or e9a&ple de%end yoursel%J BowJ 2re you a paci%istJ <o you allow yoursel% to be violated3
even to the point o% being /illedJ 6ne o% the proble&atics o% the conscientious obAector is that his
answer is yes3 that you don=t har& another person3 ever3 under any circu&stance$

"eon: There=s a Buddhist story o% a disciple o% the Buddha who was on a boat with three
hundred passengers3 and he got wind that so&e guy was going to /ill the passengers3 and ta/e all
the wealth$ 2nd this disciple o% the Buddha3 who3 o% course3 had been taught non+violence3 /illed
the would+be &urderer$ 2nd he told the Buddha3 when he got bac/3 what he=d done$ 2nd the
Buddha said Q;hat you did was right3 what you did was a good thing3 because not only did it
save three hundred lives3 but you saved this guy innu&erable /alpas3 or aeons3 in hell3 living out
the evil /ar&a o% &urdering three hundred peopleR$ So it=s not @under no circu&stances &ay you
/ill=3 even %or the Buddha$

Ste#e: Iou can try to prevent yoursel% %ro& being violated3 as well as preventing violence
to others3 that=s certainly part o% your responsibility$ So ethics isn=t this co&pletely sch&uc/y
idea o% lying down and e9posing your Augular$ 6n the other hand3 there is Buddha=s &essage'
don=t /illH Thin/ o% the %uture lives that you &ight be involved in as a result$ Bowever you want
to read it3 even i% you Aust interpreted it in ter&s o% this li%e3 to live with &urder or blood on your
hands is intolerable$

"eon: ;ell3 it=s intolerable %or you3 and it probably is intolerable %or the rest o% us in the
roo& here3 but it=s not necessarily intolerable %or everybody$

Ste#e: I% you co&e up against these dile&&as3 what happens thenJ ;ould you have
/illed Bitler i% you=d had a chance3 %or e9a&ple be%ore he=d created the NaGi &ove&ent and
slaughtered the &illions that he slaughteredJ 2nd o% course you could say3 well how could you
notJ So there you co&e up against these li&it ?uestions3 but you don=t really /now how you=re
going to act3 e9cept when you are called on in that situation$

"eon: <o any o% us3 i% we hesitate at all at the idea o% /illing Bitler3 criticise von
Stau%%enberg %or plotting to assassinate BitlerJ No3 we=re Aust sorry he didn=t succeed$ o% course3
i% we were great &asters o% a non+violent path3 we &ight Aust have the s/il%ul &eans and
authority to &ove a /iller to see the evil o% his ways and give the& up$ 2nd3 o% course3 one would
be doing that having given up attach&ent to one=s own survival$

!ob: Iou were saying3 Steve3 that since the si9ties there are even &ore co&ple9ities in
ter&s o% trying to %ind a solution to the proble& o% how we live collectively$ <on=t you thin/ as a
psychotherapist that you=ve seen too &uch that goes on within the individual ever to believe that
there could be a @good society= co&posed o% &illions o% individualsJ

Ste#e: I don=t see how that %ollows$ I thin/ you /now the reasons %or &y perple9ityF
why I thin/ there is an increased perple9ity$ It is precisely because o% the e9perience o% being
with other people in a therapeutic way3 so that I cannot be so naive ever to i&agine that there are
si&ply good guys on one side and bad guys on the other$ ;e all are capable o% acting as co&plete
shits toward other people$ ;e can all %ind ourselves in e&tre!is. ;e &ay beco&e %rea/ed+out3
ripped apart3 troubled by our past3 by our %a&ilies3 by our genetic &a/e+up3 neural networ/s3
whatever3 all these are %actors in our actual e9periences$ ;e &ay have had violence done to usC
we su%%er %ro& our i&per%ections3 %ro& present situations in which we %ind ourselves alienated3
turned+o%%3 &iserable and unhappy3 with no prospects %or the %uture$ Many people %eel that there
are no prospects3 that the %uture is closed$ So as individuals3 with one another3 we are o%ten in
deep3 dar/ places$ This see&s to be the hu&an condition3 and it=s not so&ething new that we=ve
invented$ 8or instance3 you have <ante and his In%erno$ The way through the in%erno is not to try
to Au&p out o% it3 but to get so&e insight into the hell you are in$ Therapy opens you up to a /ind
o% a clarity3 gives you guidance3 Aust as a guide guides <ante through the various levels o% the
hell that he %inds hi&sel% in$ 6nly then is there the potential %or a way through and a way
%orward$ That I would say is so&ething o% the wor/3 the pathC I thin/ this path or way was the
&essage o% >esusFwhenever two or &ore are gathered together in his na&e3 there is the way and
the truth and the li%e$ Bis na&e3 I would say3 is %here a!.

"eon: ;herever two or threeF

Ste#e: ;herever two or threeF

"eon: 2re gathered in &y na&eF

Ste#e: 2re gatheredF

"eon: There I a&F

Ste#e: There I a&3 there is the way3 and the truth3 and the li%e$ Bere I a&3 in the na&e o% a
!essianic to.co!e, a pro!ise to co!e, against all odds given how we &istreat ourselves and
othersC the pro!ise of +ustice to co!e. I don=t thin/ we=re sel%+enclosed individuals3 that we=re
sel%ishly navel+gaGing3 or Aust trying to @grow=$ Deople so&eti&es thin/ o% therapy as a /ind o%
indulgence$ I thin/ therapy &a/es a contribution to an econo&y o% Austice$ It is a si&ple act o%
decency we can do %or our %ellow &an$

"eon:FLpausesMFBob3 pic/ing up on your ?uestion that Steve was responding to earlier3
let=s Aust start so&ewhere else very brie%ly3 with the connection between therapy and politicsF
that was what you were addressingFand go bac/ to so&ething Steve was saying about the polis
being concerned with3 i% not %ounded upon3 the ?uestion @what is the good li%eJ= ;ell3 &aybe3
once upon a ti&e the polis was %ounded upon this ?uestion but3 un%ortunately3 %ew i% any states
are now %ounded upon or concerned with that ?uestion$

Ste#e: That=s the &ain the&e o% philosphic ?uestioning3 it=s the political ?uestion o%
Socrates3 2ristotle and Dlato' Bow can we create a polisthat will %oster the good li%e %or allJ

"eon: Therapy can and ought to be concerned with this /ind o% ?uestioning3 i&plicitly i%
not also e9plicitly$ That=s a contribution it can &a/e to our conte&porary polis, the real and
increasingly virtual one$ Therapists would be neglecting an opportunity and a responsibility not
to be &ind%ul o% this ?uestion and ?uestioning3 which also involvesFvery &uch soFputting
ourselves and what we=re doing in ?uestion$ I=ve tried to practise in that way3 and I=ve ?uite o%ten
been re&inded o% the need to ?uestion3 and have been provo/ed to put &ysel% in ?uestion3 by &y
patients$ I=ve %re?uently been instructed by the&$ I thin/ it=s right %or therapists to encourage and
provo/e this ?uestioning3 at the right ti&e and in the right way %or that singular relationship3 on
the part o% the one co&ing %or therapy$ obviously we shouldn=t do that in any progra&&ed way3
not as political activists or gurus that have an agenda or conviction o% what the good li%e is3 but
as part o% our responsibility %or the other3 even %or the other=s responsibility$ ;ithout raising
these ?uestions3 and without raising the ?uestions in a way that puts onesel% in ?uestion3
including the way that one=s living one=s own li%e and practising3 well3 without that3 what are we
doingJ Now3 once we=re into that3 then o% course there=s a lin/ with politics3 starting %ro& where
we are3 starting %ro& what=s going on between us3 starting %ro& raising these ?uestions with the
people we=re seeing in ter&s o% their involve&ent in the world$ Now that=s not to say that
anything I=& doing here in this roo& is going to have so&e e%%ect that I can predict out there3 but
i% I have so&e &easure o% success in raising these ?uestions3 in helping others to raise these
?uestions the&selves3 then that sort o% ?uestioning will spread$ The very raising o% these
?uestions &ay very well be in the service o% goodness %or all concerned$

Ste#e: It=s not at all abstract3 and I &ean I seeF

"eon: It=s not abstract3 no$

Ste#e: No3 but it would be help%ul to give so&e instances as illustrationsC %or e9a&ple3
so&e couples I see who are unable to co&&unicate$ These couples are o%ten involved in power
struggles$ Each &e&ber o% the couple wants to %orce the other to accept their version o% what=s
going on$ These couples %ight constantly in order to get each other to accept their version o% the
story$ Much o% their ti&e see&s spent in this struggle$

!ob: Sorry to interrupt hereFisn=t that what nearly everybody doesJ

Ste#e: But these couples &a/e li%e &iserable %or each other3 to an e9traordinary degree$
They can=t even decide to separate3 because they can=t discuss how to go about it$

"eon: The answer to your ?uestion3 Aust to interrupt Steve %or a &o&ent3 is no3
everybody isn=t li/e that$

Ste#e: It=s a ?uestion o% respect$ ;e haven=t all had this e9perience$

"eon: That=s right$ There are people who live together3 who are not only not caught up in
it to that degree3 but who really see& to be on a di%%erent path3 able to spea/ and listen to each
other$

Ste#e: These couples are headed %or @:ra&er versus :ra&er= type scenarios3 where it
really is absolute hell between the&$ Now the point I would &a/e is that at least in therapy these
couples get so&ething o% a %lavour o% what they are doing$ They can actually catch the&selves at
it3 i$e$ see how they are treating one another3 to the point where they actually have &o&ents o%
relie% %ro& this$ They are then able to stop &a/ing attributions about each other which a&ount to
incorporating the 6ther into one another=s narrative$ In therapy3 couples begin to understand the
6ther=s point o% view3 to get a sense o% how the 6ther is seeing things3 and to see how there is
so&e legiti&acy in the 6ther=s ta/e on things$ By listening3 and treating one another a little &ore
/indly3 all o% a sudden they start to get along and enAoy being together$ My Aob is neither to help
couples separate nor to help the& stay together$ It is Aust to enable the& to be a bit better at being
with each other when they are in the sa&e roo&3 to be a little &ore decent toward one another$ It
sounds si&ple3 but it really is not easy$

!ob: 6% course$

Ste#e: The therapy &ight have an e%%ect in ter&s o% Aob3 li%e3 /ids3 etceteras$ These things
are interconnected in the way that they %an out into the wor/+place3 into their %riendships3 into
their relations with the whole circle o% other people they=re involved with3 and so on$

"eon: 6ne wor/shop we could consider o%%ering is one where we &a/e a lin/ between
the proble&atics o% love3 and politicsF

Ste#e: 2nd goodness3 and the good li%e$

"eon: ;hat &ight happen when people are able to spea/ together openly about the
proble&atics that al&ost all o% us %ace in ter&s o% living together3 and the di%%iculty &any o% us
have in ter&s o% loving and being loved3 inti&acy and all thatJ

Ste#e: I=& using this instance to put their Aoint narrative in ?uestion$

"eon: Ies3 putting their narrative in ?uestion is another way o% putting it$

Ste#e: ;e o%ten put %orward a story as though we=re absolutely certain it is the true story
rather than put the story into ?uestion$

"eon: I=& thin/ing o% a setting where this can be brought up3 between people3 and groups
o% people3 raising this ?uestion3 and encouraging the &ore di%%icult &atter o% learning to put
onesel% in ?uestion$ I don=t &ean by that rein%orcing attitudes o% no con%idence in the&selves that
people have3 but genuinely putting the&selves in ?uestion$

Ste#e: only you can do it3 but you can=t do it alone$ Iou can=t do it by yoursel%$ Iou can=t
see how you are relating alone$ Iou need to have so&eone outside your circle3 who& you can
trust3 as a re%eree$ Iou need a hearing that is %air3 neutral3 not uninterested3 but not with a vested
interest3 with nothing to gainF

!ob: 2s psychotherapists3 how do you deal with the pastJ

"eon: Bow do you deal with the pastJ 2nd can you not deal with itJ

!ob: Ieah$

Ste#e: ;ell o% course this &a/es an assu&ption that there is so&ething that=s past$ This is
o%3 course3 a ?uestion3 rather than a %oregone conclusion$ ;e are always turned toward the %uture3
where the ti&e %or e9periencing is co&ing %ro&$ The @so+called= past will always be a re.
narration, or a re+constitution o% what we suppose we re&e&ber$ ;hat we ta/e as the @has been=
Othe pastP will be i&agined di%%erently as our %uture perspective changes$ In a way3 there isn=t
anything past$ It=s all to co&e$ 2ll our e9perience is based on our potential to be$ Iou can=t avoid
the %uture3 which includes re+narrating3 or re+visiting3 the past$

Now one o% the things that happens is that we recate"orise in very restricted stereotypical
ways that i&prison us$ So we &ight %or e9a&ple continue to recategorise ourselves as being
worthless3 or a sch&uc/3 or idiotic$ ;hich is so&ething we &ight have pic/ed up along the way$
Maybe our %ather thought that about us3 so we have an underlying conviction o% ourselves as not
&easuring up$ Now that can cause us a lot o% grie%3 and it=s not clear how that pain and grie% %ro&
that repetitive pattern o% the way we ta/e ourselves to be underneath everything else3 can be
tapped into and trans%or&ed$ But probably what it o%ten is3 is a wound that=s scarred over3 and we
need to e9pose that wound3 so we have to %irst get to the scar tissues3 the underlying de%ences3
and so&ehow then lay bare the wound$ In the conte9t o% therapy3 repetitive patterns can be seen
and then recategorised3 re%or&ulated3 deconstructed and reconstructed in a way that=s &ore
healing and &ore appropriate %or a better %uture and a &ore wholeso&e present$ Now that=s
so&ething that o% course ta/es ti&e3 and over a period o% ti&e you can=t pinpoint the &o&ent
when it happened3 but over ti&e this process does tend to happen in good therapy$

"eon: In the %il& )id :ou ;sed To 7e 6.). Lain"1 Ronnie says i% you=re in a prison cell3
and so&eone opens the door3 and says you can go now3 you &ay not have to /now how you got
in there3 and go through how you got in there3 in order to get up and leave$ Now so&e people
co&ing into psychotherapy3 he says3 because o% the nature o% what they=re caught up inFand I
could add' and the nature o% what=s going on between the person who=s the therapist and the
person who=s co&e %or therapyFso&e people &ay have to %igure out how they got stuc/
wherever they=re stuc/3 or trapped wherever they=re entrapped3 in order to %igure out how to get
out o% it$ But &aybe not3 &aybe it=s not necessary$ The Buddha tells a story in his teachings on
su%%ering o% a guy who is shot with an arrow$ 2nd rather than pull the arrow out3 which is going
to /ill hi& i% he doesn=t get it out3 he says Q6h3 be%ore I get this arrow out3 I have these ?uestions
to as/' ;ho shot this arrowJ ;hy was the arrow shot at &eJR3 and so on and so %orthC and the
Buddha teaches one to Aust pull the arrow out$ ;ell3 so&e people can=t3 andEor won=t$

!ob: BothFcan=t or won=tJ

"eon: B&&$

!ob: EitherEorJ

"eon: Ieah$ I=& re&inded o% the story o% the &an who inspired various theatre directors
and voice teachers$ Be was Charlotte Salo&an=s lover and guru Oher autobiographical paintings
were on e9hibit at the Royal 2cade&y in London recentlyP3 a Ger&an >ew who was born around
#-.03 and served as a &edic in the trenches in the %irst ;orld ;ar3 where3 li/e lots o% other &en
who &anaged to survive3 he saw his &ates being /illed3 dying and su%%ering &iserably$ 2nd he
heard screa&s o% all /inds3 sounds that he had never heard be%ore$ Towards the end o% the war he
al&ost got /illed hi&sel%3 and Aust &anaged to sort o% crawl inch by inch to sa%ety3 and he heard a
&ate callFhe didn=t /now who it was3 but he heard so&eone call QBelpH BelpH BelpHR Be didn=t
stop3 he didn=t try to %ind this guy and help3 he Aust went on and tried to save hi&sel%$ Be %elt
guilty a%ter the war3 and he was diagnosed as having shell+shoc/ or trau&atic war neurosis3 and
went to di%%erent people to help hi&3 and no+one helped$ Be grew very dissatis%ied with those
diagnoses3 he %elt they were reducing so&ething o% a terrible e9perience o% li%e and death to so&e
category which &issed it$ 2nd the way he %ound to help hi&sel% was to re&e&ber the sounds he
had heard3 and i&itate the&$ Be was i&pressed by 8reud=s wor/ about catharsis and abreaction3
and so that=s where he started3 and gradually he ended up training people in the voice$ Deople
li/e Growtows/i and Deter Broo/e got very interested in his wor/ a%ter he died3 through a
student o% his3 Roy Bart3 who ran a theatre co&pany$ Be %ound that we have potentially &ore
than a &a9i&u& o% a two octave range3 or so$ ;e all have the capability o% &any octaves3 but we
don=t allow our voice to co&e out$ Be %ound a way to bring it out$ <oes that wor/ re?uire going
into the past$ Be was stuc/3 and the only way he could %igure out to get %ree was to go bac/ in a
way to the scene o% the trau&a3 to what he had heard3 and try to voice this hi&sel%$ But so&eone
who is wor/ing with the voice is wor/ing as &uch in the present as they are with the past$ So
what=s the distinction thereJ

Ste#e: 2nd also the %uture$ The potential to be able to voiceF

"eon: To be %reeF

Ste#e: ;hen you can find your voice, it is then a %reeing e9perience$ ;hen you=re
spea/ing with your own voice3 rather than in the cho/ed ways we o%ten inhibit ourselves with3 by
spea/ing with a /ind o% pseudo+conventional voice3 a voice we=re supposed to sound li/e$

"eon: It=s li/e we all wear &as/s3 and you could say psychotherapy at its best is about a
/ind o% un!askin", and this guy is in a sense un!askin" and releasin" the voice. Be criticises
;estern teaching o% singing as concerned with a beauti%ul voice3 whereas he=s on about the
authentic voice$ 2nd a %ree voice$ 2nd3 as you say3 findin" your %o#n voice is very relevant here$
Iou &ay or &ay not have to dwell on the past3 but you=re co&ing %ro& so&ewhere and going
so&ewhere$ So the ?uestions %#here do you co!e fro!1 and @where are you goingJ= and %ho#
are you !ovin" fro! here to there1 are ine9tricably lin/ed$

Ste#e: 2nd that=s at every &o&ent$

"eon: That=s at every &o&ent$ n each and every !o!ent.
CHAPTER SE'EN

(*N& AN& (%S*C

Bob Mullan was absent when Gans and Redler discussed @&usic as a &etaphor= %or
understanding states o% &ind$

"eon: ;e &ight pic/ up today on any one o% several ?uestions or issues Bob put to us'
O#P &oney and psychotherapyFthe e9change o% &oneyC O!P QCan you spea/ about your own
personal lives and how you live the&JR 2nd O,P QCan you spea/ about your own personal
proble&sJR

Iou were spea/ing o% the proble&atics o% tal/ing about one=s personal li%e3 especially
since it involves other people that one is in a personal relationship with$ So &aybe we could
spea/ about those proble&atics3 and co&e bac/ to the ?uestion o% responsibility towards others
and what it &eans in our lives3 and in the lives o% the people we wor/ withFespecially
responsibility for the Others responsibility. 2nd what that actually &eans in practice.

The %irst ti&e I read Levinas saying3 in an interview3 that not only are you responsible %or
the 6ther3 but you=re responsible even %or the 6ther=s responsibility3 I wondered what that could
&eanJ ;as it an e9tre&e >ewish guilt+tripJ ;as it &adJ 6r was it3 in %act3 so pro%ound that I
didn=t at the ti&e begin to get itJ I thin/ I be"in to get it nowFand it is pro%ound$
So&eone was telling &e about a London+based >apanese pianist who studied &usic in
vienna$ She was saying she=s been playing MoGart and Beethoven %or %orty years3 and she loves
the&3 but doesn=t yet understand the&$ I appreciate that$

Ste#e: ;ell there=s that /ind o% in%inite depth in Levinas= discourse$ I thin/ you get
Levinas3 tune into hi&3 &ore li/e you get a &usical co&poser li/e Beethoven and MoGart$ Be is
not putting %orward a philosophical thesis3 since the other person isn=t the&atisable$ The 6ther
can=t be put into a conceptual %ra&ewor/3 into categories3 without doing violence$ Iou can=t
/now &e li/e I /now &ysel% and I can=t even /now &ysel%$ Ta/e %or e9a&ple the issue o%
responsibility even for the Others responsibility. Responsibility is given' be%ore I choose it3 I=&
thrown into it Oli/e Beidegger=s @thrownness=P$ Iou %ind yoursel% always already obliged to be
responsible$ This is how it is to be hu&an$ But the hu&an isn=t understood in ter&s o% hu&anis&3
that is3 as so&e /ind o% sel%+actualisation3 or sel%+realisation process3 sel%+%ul%illing3 or anything
to do with the sel%$ The hu&an %or Levinas is to do always with a relation with another3 with
others$

"eon: Be has a co&pletely di%%erent notion o% the subAective$

Ste#e: Ieah3 it=s not subAective$

"eon: Iou=re subAect as a %unction o% who and what you=re subAected to3 called by the
6ther to respond$ @I= a& heEshe who responds to your call$ QIou calledJ Bere I a&HR

Ste#e: Iou=re subAected to an obligationF

"eon: Ieah3 so what I=& saying is that it=s a turnaround0

Ste#e: Ies it=s a turnaround %ro& sel%+enclosure3 the Cartesian &entalistic egology which
even pheno&enology reinstitutedFit=s a shi%t$ So that=s why it=s very di%%icult to discuss3
because we really don=t have a language developed %or it3 and it=s very evocativeFevocative
provocativeF&ore than intellectual and conceptualC it is &usical$ ;hat I=& saying is that to be
truly hu&an is to &a/e &usic3 to be in har&ony rather than cacophony3 dishar&ony3 and discord$
Being hu&an is to be in accord3 rather than in discord$ Niolence3 Levinas see&s to say3 is
discordant$ Niolence would be to be cut+o%% %ro& the 6ther in all o% the ways that &ani%est
the&selves in word and deed$

"eon: Niolence isn=t discordant with the predo&inant @&usic= o% the age$

Ste#e: I thin/ Levinas wouldn=t call it &usic3 he=d call it catastrophicH

"eon: Cacophony3 even disasterF

Ste#e: Because precisely %or that reason$ 2nd not only this age3 but &aybe every age$

"eon: 2nd I=& using @&usic= &etaphorically$

Ste#e: Right3 that=s right$ So then &aybe i% you put responsibility into a &usical register
it=s not that hard to understand$

"eon: Go on$

Ste#e: Consider the Levinasian notion o% responsibility and our responsibility %or the
6ther=s responsibility in ter&s o% a &usical &etaphor$ This hyper+responsibility beco&es &ore
accessible in a &usical conte9t$ Supposing you were playing in a string ?uartet3 and so&ebody=s
playing o%%+ti&e3 it=s your responsibility to get hi& to play together with you$ 6therwise he is
screwing up the ?uartet3 not &a/ing &usic3 not rendering MoGart or whatever &ani%est$ Iou can
say to hi&3 you=re anti+&usic3 /illing the &usic3 /illing the raison.detre %or playing together3
and this discordance is persecuting to those who are tuned with an ear to hear its har&ony as it=s
o%%+ti&e and o%%+/ey$ 2nd that happens3 I would say3 in the &usic o% hu&an relationships$

"eon: ;ait3 you say you=re responsible %or the one who=s playing o%%+/ey or in wrong
rhyth& orFJ

Ste#e: 2nything$

"eon: 2nd who is the @you= that=s responsibleJ

Ste#e: 2ll the other players$

"eon: So the other playersFthe three other playersFhave the responsibility3 at least, to
open up the ?uestion3 because o% course he &ight say that theyre o%%+/ey3 or that he better
understands or has a better %eel %or MoGart=s intention about the te&po3 and he &ight be
contesting either the one leading the group or the leaderless group=s sense$ There &ay need to be
&ediation and negotiation to reach3 ?uite literally3 and &usically3 accord$

Ste#e: This re&inds &e o% a guy we /now who doesn=t see that he doesn=t see how he
creates ani&osity towards hi&sel% by his passivity$ By being cut+o%% %ro& his relationship with
others3 not engaged3 he invites attac/$ By being de%ended he %inds that people are always
attac/ing hi&$ Deople will o%ten live these self.fulfillin" prophecies. In therapy practice it is o%ten
di%%icult to get people to see how they=re playing a part in what they=re presenting as their
sy&pto&3 or their proble&$

"eon: They=re caught up in a scenario that it turns out they=ve been caught up in over and
over again3 but &ay not even recognise that it=s another version o% the sa&e$

Ste#e: E9actly$

"eon: ;ell3 6:3 so one o% the proble&s with the string ?uartet3 and I thin/ there=s &erit
in staying with that3 is that the one who you say is o%%+/ey or out o% ti&e3 or is thought to be
playing with the wrong spirit3 &ight have the best ear3 &ight have a better %eel %or MoGart than
the others$ But it=s going to sound terrible i% they don=t listen to one another3 hear what=s being
played3 and play together$ There%ore in a string ?uartet3 ulti&ately3 i% they can=t arrive at
agree&ent3 either they have to disband, or they have to &a/e it clear that one o% the& has the last
word3 that is one is leadin".

Ste#e: ;ell the reason I invo/ed a colleague Othe @guy= earlierP was to %eed bac/ into that
&etaphor o% &usic$ In the case o% a string ?uartet3 the violence would be to the three people i% the
%ourth person is slaughtering the &usic3 but responsible relating doesn=t include a written set o%
rules$ Iou can=t loo/ up a rule to say Q;ell3 it=s clear you are o%%+/ey or o%%+ti&eR$ So&eti&es it
&ay be clear3 but so&eti&es there=s roo& %or debate3 or li/e you say3 discussion3 and o% course
so&eone can clai& to be learned in so&ething3 but &ight be a learned ignora&us that is3 have a
lot o% learning3 but no real %eel %or what it is that he is tal/ing about3 or playing$ So you &ight
have a scholar o% &usic3 a &usicologist3 who isn=t really able to play together with anyone else$

"eon: Iou &ight have rules3 or certainly guiding instructions$ Beethoven3 I=& told3 was
one o% the %irst co&posers who &ade use o% a &etrono&e in his notations$ Be got very ta/en by
the &etrono&e3 and at so&e point not only co&posed new pieces with the precise ti&ing written
in3 but went bac/ and wrote the &etrono&e ti&ing into earlier pieces$ Even so3 rightly or
wrongly3 so&e people &ight ignore his &ar/ings and play so that the &usic played hasF

Ste#e: 2 co&pletely di%%erent &eaningF

"eon: Could beF

Ste#e: 2nd sense$

"eon: But we &ight say3 6:3 we li/e this &usician=s rendition o% it3 and we don=t li/e
that one=s3 but we allow that they both haveF

Ste#e: 2n acceptable range3 and then there=s an unacceptable rangeF

"eon: It=s not anything goes$ The oboe gives us the 2C we also have a tuning %or/3 there=s
not &uch roo& %or disagree&ent about 2$ ;hen the orchestra tunes3 the leader turns to the oboist
%or the 23 and the leader tunes his or her violin to the 23 and then everyone else tunes+up$ 6ne
thing i&plicit in that3 obviously3 is that they all have to listen.

Ste#e: 2nd then going bac/ to your point3 that at the end o% the day they have to arbitrate
di%%erent nuances o% ti&ing and spacing and placing and phrasings3 in an orchestra you get a
conductor3 so&eone who is loo/ed to as a seasoned &usician who& people respect and go along
with$ Now a wild &usician who does not honour the conductor would be seen by everyone else
as doing violence to the piece$

"eon: Bowever great a &usician he &ight be$

Ste#e: Bowever great a &usician he &ight be$ It would be the responsibility o%
everybody in the orchestra3 but &ost o% all the leader=s and the conductor=s3 to get the guy in
tune3 in synch3 or out o% the roo&$ Now I don=t thin/ that that=s so perple9ing a concept to wrap
one=s &ind around$ Deople &a/e a lot o% this
Levinasian responsibility as being way beyond anyone3 but is itJ 6r3 rather3 is it really
very ordinaryJ

"eon: So we=ve co&e to a relatively straight%orward situation$ Co&plicated as the
orchestra isFa hu&an co&&unity with its relationships and its politicsFin the end3 we=ve
agreed3 there=s got to be one person in charge$ ;e usually call that person the conductor$

Ste#e: 2uthorisedF

"eon: RightF

Ste#e: Drecisely %or that roleF

"eon: ;ho is in chargeF

Ste#e: ;ho &ediatesF

"eon: ;ho doesn=t Aust &ediate3 but has the %inal say3 decidesF

Ste#e: Bas to call the shotsF

"eon: 2nd the ulti&ate decision is you=re in or you=re out o% the orchestra %or this piece
or that$ 2nd i% you challenge &y right to say that you=re in or you=re out3 then i% you don=t go3 I
have to go$ Because I can=t responsibly conduct this orchestra i% you can=t3 a%ter considering the
&atter3 accept &y lead$ Now that=s clear$ It would also be clear in a %ootball tea&3 that the
&anager3 or coach in 2&erican %ootball3 has got to have the right to decide3 he has to be able to
&a/e those decisions i% he=s to ta/e responsibility %or it$ 6r he has to leaveF

Ste#e: I=d say i% he can=t &anage to win$

"eon: Right$ Now3 i% we want a clearer e9a&ple3 let=s consider the ar&y in a %ield o%
battle$ ;hoever is the co&&ander o% that group3 is absolutely in charge$ There is no de&ocracy
because on the %ield everyone /nows that that=s no ti&e to be in doubt as to who is calling the
shots$

Ste#e: This is not a wonder%ul e9a&ple to use about non+violence o% course$ But certainly
in regard to honouring the co&&anderF

"eon: ;ell3 I=d now argue3 against &y stand as a conscientious obAector thirty+%ive years
ago3 that there are ti&es when &ilitary action is called %or3 where it &ight be irresponsible to
hold bac/3 as &ore violence &ight be generated by not being ready to %ight$ 8or instance3 in
de%ending against attac/3 or protecting against atrocities3 it &ay be called %or$

Ste#e: This is one o% the areas o% Levinas that I thin/ is a little hard to swallow3 because I
thin/ that he does personally ta/e a non+violent position$ I thin/ that he would rather be /illed
than /ill3 but he would %eel that it is his responsibility to try to prevent anyone %ro& /illing hi&$
But he wouldn=t say that it was his responsibility to /ill the 6ther3 because that would be &eeting
violence with violence$

"eon: Levinas= entire %a&ily in Lithuania were /illed by the NaGis$ ;ould he have
hesitated i% there had been a way3 by &ilitary %orce3 to stop those who were bringing this aboutJ
;ould he have said no3 don=t use %orceJ I would have thought heF

Ste#e: No3 use %orce to stop the &urder$ That=s what I=& saying$ That he would have used
%orce to stop the &urder$

"eon: Levinas &aintains the %ace o% the 6ther is calling on &e not to &urder3 not to /ill$
8reud re&inded us o% the sel%+centred3 appropriating3 &urderous character o% each o% us3 and that
divilisation co&es at the price o% repression o% that too$ The ethical &ove is turning toward the
6ther and away %ro& &y sel%+centeredness and &urderous potential$ But I &ight be called upon
to /ill not out o% &urderous %eelings but out o% responsibility %or the lives o% others$
Returning to &usic3 8reud would see& to reduce the subli!e &usic o% a Bach3 MoGart or
Beethoven to @subli&ation= o% our repressed se9uality$

Ste#e: Interestingly enough 8reud=s relation to &usic was said to be very a&bivalent$

"eon: 2nd he wasn=t very appreciative o% the value o% religious and spiritual discourses
and practices$ Be see&s to reduce the& to di%%erent ways o% dealing with unconscious stu%%$
There doesn=t see& to be &uch appreciation o% or space %or transcendence thereH But the %act is
that there=s a lot we don=t and can=t kno#.

Levinas writes o% the Other who we can=t kno#. ;e can=t appropriate the otherness o%
the 6ther$ ;e can=t &a/e the alterity o% the 6ther our own3 li/e we &a/e our /nowledge our
own$ ;hen we try to do that3 we violate the 6ther and are deprived o% a relation with his or her
alterity$ It=s not a &atter o% kno#in" but rather o% being subAected to the call o% the 6ther3 being
always already called upon to respond$

;e=re considering how best to intervene in a situation$ In an orchestra3 or at least in &ost
orchestras3 so&eone has ulti&ate responsibility3 and has the authority to e9ercise that
responsibility3 in the service o% bringing out the best &usic the &usicians can play and the
audience can hear3 as he or she3 the conductor3 hears it and %eels it$ But in a %a&ily or other
co&&unal living situation3 who is responsible %or who& and %or what3 in what conte9ts and in
what various waysJ ;hat does the responsibility o% each consist o%J It=s not so clear+cut$

8or instance3 what &ight be &y responsibility %or a person I=& living with i% I %eel that
person is @out o% tune= and can=t hearJ 2nd I can=t bear to hear what I=& hearing3 especially
hearing that the person who is @out o% tune= isn=t hearing that he or she is @out o% tune=J 2nd what
&ight be the responsibility o% a third person hearing this3 who is reluctant to intervene3 not
wanting to inter%ere or intrude3 yet &ight be negligent in his or her responsibility in not saying
whatever he or she can to the persons in ?uestion$ Is there any way o% sha/ing one or other o%
those persons up3 so that3 %or e9a&ple3 the $uestion is opened up as to #hos hearin" or not
hearin" #hat o% what=s being voiced and spo/en3 so that one or both can better put the!selves in
$uestion1 6r even validate3 or ?uestion the validity o%3 the very $uestion of #hats at issue %or
eachJ

Ste#e: But it=s again also the ?uestion o% the di%%erentiation o% what=s good or responsible
and then what is possibly not good3 and not really responsible3 and possibly even violent$
So&eti&es approaches to sha/ing people up3 %or instance so&e @therapeutic techni?ues=3 could in
the&selves be counter+productive$

"eon: BowJ

Ste#e: 8or instance3 I was starting out with e9ploring this not+/nowingC you can=t put
yoursel% in the position o% /nowing$ Iou wait be%ore you intervene$ It=s not Aust accepting the
6ther$ Responsibility is &eant to ?uestion our own and the 6ther=s way o% relating to others$
Responsibility &ay &ean %inding a s/il%ul &eans to enable the 6ther to be &ore responsible$

"eon: 2ust soH

CHAPTER E*)HT

PSYCHOANA"YS*S AN& THE OTHER

These conversations begin with a discussion o% a paper Gans is to present in the 4S2 on
@psychoanalysis and the body=$ It is %ollowed by discussions on a nu&ber o% subAects' the nature
o% &e&ory in the psychotherapeutic processC con%identialityC lies and lyingC the current status o%
psychiatryC and the personal lives o% psychotherapists$

!ob: Iou were saying3 Steve3 that you were going to have to write your paper under the
u&brella title o% @Dsychoanalysis and the body=F

Ste#e: Bow will the body spea/ in the twenty+%irst centuryJ This is the con%erence
?uestion$ In di%%erent ways than in the twentieth century perhapsJ 8reud spo/e o% hysterical
sy&pto&s3 an9iety sy&pto&s3 obsessional sy&pto&s3 paranoid sy&pto&s3 etceteras$ ;hat does
your sy&pto& spea/ o% nowJ 6% what will our sy&pto&s spea/ in the new &illenniu&J Bow
will we hear the& di%%erentlyJ

!ob: Can you elaborate on thisJ

Ste#e: ;ell 8reud thought there were sy&pto&s that are not organically based$ They are
rather sy&bols3 that is3 they &ean so&ething3 they=re saying so&ething$ 8or e9a&ple3 a pain in
the nec/ &ay &ean that so&eone is being a @pain in the nec/=$

!ob: 2s a psychotherapist3 do you thin/ in any way that it=s an advantage being a
&edical practitionerJ

"eon: @In any way=J 6% course it &ight be$ I% one can e&erge %ro& &edical training and
practice as a &ore3 rather than less3 sensitive3 attentive3 open+&inded person3 it=s an advantage$ I%
one can e&erge &ore understanding o% and responsive to the co&ple9ity o% su%%ering %ellow
creatures3 &ore appreciative o% the wonder and &ystery o% li%e and deathFas well as with a
sound and thought%ul &edical understanding o% the issues and proble&s o% the li%e+cycle3 %ro&
conception to death3 then it=s an advantage$ I% one e&erges %ro& &edical training into &edical
practice able to deal with various /inds o% e&ergings3 non+e&ergings and e&ergencies3 then
being a &edical practitioner can be an advantage$ But in real li%e3 these days3 that=s rare. In the
&ore li&ited sense o% being aware and attuned to illness3 it could o% course be use%ul3 but I=d say
that on balance it=s not an advantage$ That is3 being &ore aware and attuned to what=s going on is
a plus3 but thin/ing or really calculating in &edical categories3 and getting into diagnostic &ode
Fpoised to do so&ething about itFis unli/ely to be a plus %or a therapist$

Regarding &edical treat&ent3 8reud didn=t thin/ a psychoanalyst ought to get involved in
that$ It=s true that so&eone &ight have a &edical conditionFa physiological3 anato&ical or
pathological lesion or disease$ Be said so&eone co&ing into analysis should have a good chec/+
up by another doctor be%ore analysis and3 and i% there=s any ?uestion o% a condition re?uiring
&edical opinion or intervention during the course o% analysis3 the patient should be re%erred to
another doctor$ Even i% the analyst is a doctor3 it=s not really %or the analyst to get involved with
doing physical e9a&inations or the nitty+gritty o% diagnosing or treating &edical conditions$
8reud thought this would unnecessarily co&plicate understanding3 interpreting and resolving the
@trans%erence=3 and the proble&atics o% the trans%erence were %or hi& %unda&ental to
psychoanalysis$

Ste#e: ;e can locate when 8reud &oved %ro& being a hypnotherapist to beco&ing a
psychoanalyst$ Be realised the in%luence o% the &ind on the neuro+physiological syste&3 and he
directly intervened through hypnosis$ 2nd then he changed his &ind about hypnosis$ I% you ta/e
over a person3 i% you i&plant suggestionsC what happens is that you &a/e it &ore di%%icult %or the
person to co&e to grips with their psychological aberration$ Iou &a/e repression di%%icult i% not
i&possible to uncover3 and hypnotic relie% wears o%%$ So you get rid o% so&e sy&pto&s3 but you
don=t really touch the core o% the proble&$ Iou don=t enable the person to heal the !eanin" of
the sy!pto! which usually involves their inability to relate to other people in their li%e$ 8reud
&oved away %ro& the scienti%ic &edical &odel because he %elt that troubled relations were the
source o% sy&pto&s which only a therapeutic relationship could heal$ Deople have di%%iculty with
8reud=s psychological and relational approach to illness3 especially catharsis which is supposed
to be brought about by recovered &e&ories$ 8reud later realised these &e&ories were o%ten
untrue$ Be couldn=t decide which &e&ories were true or %alse$ 8or e9a&ple &e&ories o% se9ual
abuses3 were they true or %antasyJ In a way he %ound that it didn=t &atter$ ;hat ca&e to be &ost
i&portant was the way in which the person was in the here and now$ It was through the
relationship that healing too/ place$ Learning to listen to people is not what is e&phasised in
&edical training$ <octors are taught to listen &ore @obAectively=3 in ter&s o% diagnosing a person
&ore as an obAect rather than inviting a person to reveal the&selves as a person$ 8reud %elt that
an individual=s sy&pto&s spo/e o% their inner con%licts$ Be invited his patients to @%ree associate=
and he would +ust listen. Be couldn=t see where this would lead in advance$ I% he had any
predeter&ined ideas regarding what people were spea/ing about in order to con%ir& his theories3
concepts3 ideas3 %ra&ewor/ and %or&ulas3 he %elt this would inhibit the course o% the analysis$
The unconscious or inner con%licts had to be allowed to e&erge through an un%olding in their
own ti&e$ The strands o% the patient=s associations would lead bac/ to a tapestry o% repressions
and de%ences3 co&pulsive and repetitive patterns o% relating3 that revealed the &eaning o%
sy&pto&s in ter&s o% di%%iculties in relating to the world and to others$ Nevertheless3 I still thin/
&edical training is i&portant$ 6% course Leon is a &edical doctor3 so he %eels it to be o% less
i&portance since he has gone through that and ta/es it %or grantedC whereas I3 without that
bac/ground3 o%ten %eel that I would probably have appreciated having had that &edical
e9perience3 especially when I have been as/ed to deal with @crises=$ I thin/ it=s a very good
training to wor/ in a casualty ward with li%e and death situations3 to have that e9posure and
seasoning that you get$ I do %eel a degree o% inade?uacy in this regard$

"eon: There=s a downside$ ;hat o%ten happens to &edical students and young doctors in
training3 who are wor/ing long hours in very de&anding circu&stances3 is that while they deal
with crises3 with people in crises3 and are involved3 as I was3 with birth and death3 sic/ness and
all &anner o% su%%erings3 they too o%ten tend to e9perience those occasions @clinically= in a way
that=s cut.off %ro& heart and %eeling$ In &y student days3 that wasn=t discouraged3 or even noticed
and co&&ented on$ I doubt that the situation has i&proved since then$

Ste#e: So there=s no guarantee that that training is going to help$

!ob: Ronnie would o%ten say that he=d loo/ at a patient3 and he wouldn=t loo/
e9clusively with a psychoanalytical or an e9istential eye$ 8or e9a&ple he would so&eti&es thin/
that it was so&eone=s breathing that needed attention3 rather than their psychological proble&sF

"eon: It=s not a &atter o% attention to so&eone=s breath @rather than= to e&otional and
e9istential &atters$ They=re inter+related$ I thin/ Ronnie was right3 but when he tal/ed about
attending to so&eone=s breathing3 although his training as a physician helped hi& to tune in to
that3 and also his e9perience o% being an asth!atic, what probably in%luenced hi& &ost
signi%icantly was his engage&ent with !editative practices3 and particularly with the basic
Buddhist practice o% !indfulness of the breath. Be re%erred o%ten to practices o% &ind%ulness o%
the body3 including breathing3 learned %ro& Buddhist teachings$

I thin/ he was spot+on$ 2 psychotherapist should be very attentive3 very !indfulof #hats
"oin" on with the other person3 with hi&sel% or hersel%3 and bet#een the two o% the&3 physically3
&entally3 spirituallyFin every way$ 2nd the therapist3 whether a physician or not3 could then be
better able to sti&ulate andEor enhance that &ind%ulness in the 6ther3 helping the 6ther get better
at being his or her own @physician= or healer3 better at sensing3 %eeling3 articulating and being
able to ta/e &ore and better responsibility %or his or her own care$

Ste#e: In the beginning o% this tal/ that I=& going to give3 I say so&ething about 8reud
that=s relevant to what you as/ed about Ronnie$ 8reud shoo/ hands each ti&e a patient ca&e into
the roo&3 as well as when they were leaving$ Now there=s a di%%erence between a psychiatrist
who &ight sha/e the hand o% a patient3 but is thin/ing &edically about the sweat on their pal&
and then using that as a diagnostic instru&ent3 as opposed to 8reud3 when he welco&ed
so&ebody by sha/ing their hand$ In other words he didn=t treat the& in an obAective way$
;elco&ing is saying @yes= to a personC listening attentively also is listening to the #ay in #hich a
person is spea/ing$ 6ur &ood and state o% &ind co&es through in our tone o% voice$ Ronnie3 who
was very &usical3 would o%ten pic/ up on the ?uality o% a person=s attune&ent$ Be could hear
how so&eone was out o% tune3 out o% touch$ Then he &ight begin to help that person re.tune, this
retuning would change their posture3 it would change their breathing3 it would change their
/inesics3 i$e$ the way they &ove$ It would change their whole co&port&ent to the&selves3 to
others and to the world$ This o% course is a very di%%erent approach to &edical intervention with
its &echanical or technical &eans$

!ob: 2lthough neither o% you is strictly 8reudian3 presu&ably it=s i&portant to /now
whether a patient=s &e&ory is right$ 6r is it notJ

Ste#e: There=s no way to tell3 because you can=t have a ti&e &achine to go bac/ to test3
and even i% we could go bac/ and test and replay the tape o% what actually occurred %ro& the
perspective o% the person3 the client3 %or who& it occurred3 loo/ing and listening to the tape later
on3 they would now re&e&ber it in a di%%erent way then when the event happened$ 8reud said
there=s so&ething called *achtra"lichkeit Ode%erred &e&oryP3 which happens i% say so&eone is
e9posed as an in%ant to witnessing their parents having se9$ They wouldn=t understand it as se9
until later$ They &ight have been disturbed as an in%ant3 seeing love&a/ing going on between
their parents but not understanding what was going on$ 2nd so already the whole ?uestion o%
&e&ory is %raught in that it=s always a revised and recategorised narrative$ It=s a retrospective
illusion$ It=s never absolutely accurate or obAectively true$

!ob: So as therapists and analysts then3 is it i&portant %or you when you=ve got the raw
&aterial that so&eone brings youFtheir &e&oriesF%or you to %ind out whether they are
re&e&bering in any way accurately3 inaccurately3 creatively3 i&aginatively3 deliberately untruely
F

"eon: It=s i&possible to spea/ o% @accurate= re&e&bering but I thin/ it=s i&portant %or us
to consider how3 and why3 what=s being related &ight have been distorted3 e&bellished and
elaborated upon3 and in what direction or way$ Me&ory is i&portant3 but what /ind o% &e&ory
are we tal/ing aboutJ ;hat do we &ean when we tal/ about re!e!berin" so&ethingJ 8or
instance3 one o% &y earliest @&e&ories=3 o% what I thin/ &ust have been a signi%icant event3 goes
bac/ to one a%ternoon when I was about three years old and an 2ustrian wo&an3 na&ed SuGanna3
who was ta/ing care o% &e while &y parents were wor/ing3 had a stro/e that day$ I don=t
re&e&ber her having the stro/e3 but what I re&e&ber is &y sister co&ing ho&e %ro& school and
trying to get into the house3 but she couldn=t because SuGanna couldn=t open the door$ 2nd I
re&e&ber &y ten year old sister instructing &e to get on a chair3 and telling &e how to open the
door$ I was trying to describe to her that SuGanna was lying on the %loor3 over there on &y right
in the dining area adAacent to the /itchen3 and she wasn=t &oving and she wasn=t spea/ing$ ;ell I
re&e&ber that3 but I don=t re&e&ber any feelin"s associated with it$ I as/ed &y &other about
that &any years later3 because I thought that &ust have been ?uite distressing$ She said that when
she arrived ho&e3 I don=t /now how long a%ter &y sister returned3 I didn=t see& to her to be
bothered at all$ Could I really not have been distressed by thatJ ;as I hiding distress3 perhaps
even %ro& &ysel%J ;as &y &other out o% touch with how I was %eeling or &ight have been
coping with the events o% that dayJ I don=t /now how long she had been lying there3 it could
have been %ive &inutes3 it could have been si9 hours$ So are we as/ing about &e&ory with or
without %eelingsJ Is it a &e&ory that=s connected up3 or is it li/e an i&age cut+o%% %ro& any other
associations or %ro& %eelingJ Is the person re&e&bering so&ething that &ay have beco&e @dis+
&e&bered=J Is what is now being brought bac/ to &ind contributing towards re+&e&bering in a
%eeling3 e&bodied way that helps to connect up with who and what they &ay have been cut+o%%
%ro&3 through repression3 denial3 splittingFJ

Ste#e: Let=s tal/ about the i&portance o% !e!ory in the conte9t o% the therapeutic
process$ I% therapy is a deconstricting process3 then &e&ories and the way they are narrated will
see& at %irst ?uite constricted$ 8or instance3 so&ebody &ight co&e to therapy %eeling awed by
everyone they &eet$ Everyone is e9perienced as an overpowering authority3 and the patient %eels
inade?uate in the %ace o% this authority$ They %eel they either &ust co&ply to or rebel against
their e9pectations$ Either way they are di&inished$ Their li%e is reactive3 they are unable to &eet
the challenges o% living$ Such patients will have constricted li%eless drea&s$ 2%ter a while their
drea&s begin to open to a wider range o% possibilities and potentials$ They start to have ani&als
in their drea&s3 %or e9a&ple3 which they never drea&t o% be%oreC they drea& o% living beings
rather than si&ply &echanical things or obAects$ This begins to show so&ething o% the
deconstricting that starts to happen as a result o% the therapy process$ This process a%%ects
&e&ories and stories about the&$ It=s not so &uch the content o% &e&ories that changes3 rather
&e&ories start to beco&e &ore rich3 &ore lively3 along with drea&s3 and &ost i&portant there is
an enlivening o% the way the person tells the stories and how they spea/ to you$ Everything
interacts with everything else$ It=s all a weave$ 2ll levels3 past and present3 trans%or& in the
deconstrictin" process of therapy. Deople don=t only su%%er %ro& a speci%ic trau&atic &e&ory$
That would be a gross si&pli%ication o% what 8reud was saying3 and what therapy is about$ Now
the deconstricting process o% therapy can get stuc/ when certain &e&ories that are very
persecuting co&e up3 %or e9a&ple3 &e&ories o% se9ual abuse$ It=s always dangerous to &a/e a
Audge&ent %or or against whether a given &e&ory is a %act or not$ ;hat really has to be healed is
the terrible estrange&ent o% which &e&ories o% abuse spea/$ Bow then can healing ta/e placeJ
6%ten the best &ode in which healing can ta/e place is %or the therapist to re&ain neutral as to
the truth o% the stories people tell$ So actually the neutrality, the undecidability3 not deciding
whether it=s %act or %iction is the best therapeutic posture that it=s possible to ta/e up with a
patient$
2nd this is I thin/ what 8reud &eans by neutrality' he &eans to re&ain neutral as to
whether what you hear is %act or %iction at any given &o&ent$ The best position to ta/e up in
relation to clients= stories is to be neutral3 because what really &atters is what is happening
between you and your client as it=s happening$ Channels are opening and closing rapidly between
you and the other$ The &ore there is &eeting and relatedness the &ore there is deconstriction and
healin".

"eon: Derhaps a better ter& %or what you=re tal/ing about is suspension of belief.

Ste#e: Ieah3 suspension o% belie%$

"eon: Suspension o% belie% and disbelief, that is3 suspended without preAudice as to what
truth value this has in ter&s o% whatever &eaning o% truth or reality we have$ >ust leave that %or
the &o&ent$ It=s ?uite pheno&enological$

Ste#e: It so&eti&es &a/es clients very angry because they absolutely want you to agree
with the&$ They want you to endorse their version o% what actually happened$ They want you to
collude with the& in their course o% action$ But 8reud=s reco&&endation o% abstinence &eans
not acceding to patients= de&ands$ 2nd o% course not intervening by advising the& one way or
another$ 2lso it is i&portant not to have a therapeutic a&bition3 i$e$ the intention to heal the& or
&a/e the& well$ 8irst o% all3 you can=t /now what is good %or a person to do or not to do3 what is
the right way %or the& to live$ 2ll you can do is help the& recover their vitality or desire to be$
Iou can=t give advice on &oral3 legal or even educational issues$ Giving advice a&ounts to
ta/ing so&ething away$ 6nly they can recover their desire to be3 but they can=t do it alone$

!ob: So where would &orality co&e into it thenJ Say one o% your clients is a young
wo&an3 and her &e&ory tells her that when she was very young3 %ro& seven onwards3 she was
se9ually abused$ <o you re&ain neutral with that /ind o% evidenceJ

Ste#e: That=s what she says$ It=s not evidence$

"eon: Bob3 I=& not sure what the ?uestion is that you=re addressing to Steve at the
&o&ent$

!ob: I% you go to a Catholic priest in con%ession and say that you have &urdered
so&ebody3 the priest will not tell anyone$ Be &ight say QI wish you would let &e tell so&ebody3
but i% you say to &e no3 you can=t tell anyone3 I will not tell anybodyR$

Ste#e: That goes without saying$ The deal you o%%er people as a therapist is
confidentiality, since you are as/ing the& to reveal their inner&ost secrets3 secrets they have /ept
hidden even %ro& the&selves$ Iou will get as a li&iting case a person clai&ing that they are
&urdering people3 or saying they plan to &urder so&ebody3 and I would have to say to the&3 QI
can=t continue to wor/ with you under these circu&stancesR$ 6% course it all &ay be Aust a
%antasy3 as when a paranoid person insists people are out there waiting to &urder hi&$ This is
true %or hi& in a &etaphorical sense but we can=t say %or sure that it=s not also literally true$

!ob: I suppose what I=& thin/ing is that it=s &arvellous that you have this code o%
con%identiality3 but do you %eel your power and your e%%icacy is such that you can a%%ord such a
grand sort o% &oral stanceJ

"eon: ;hat is the @grand sort o% &oral stance= that you thin/ he=s adoptingJ

!ob: Con%identiality about things which are heinous and hideous$

Ste#e: But they are only things that are told to you$

!ob: But when such things are told &e3 I want to investigate the&F

Ste#e: 6nly i% you=re a detective3 or only i% you=re involved directly$

"eon: Loo/ at so&e o% the di%%iculties o% notadopting that stance o% con%identiality with
people co&ing to you and telling you things that &ay be @heinous and hideous=$ Many such
people haven=t actually done anything that you or the average person would thin/ are heinous
and terrible3 yet &ight feel what they=ve done is heinous and terrible$ They &ight %eel that
they=ve done the &ost sha&e%ul things and are guilty o% the &ost terrible cri&es3 literally or
&etaphorically$ But i% they=re co&ing to so&eone who &ay not only be +ud"in" the& but turning
the& in to the police, are they going to be able to spea/ about these &attersJ So&e &ight3
because so&e &ight %eel that=s the best thing that could happen to the&Fwhether or not they=ve
actually done anything the police are concerned with$ But that=s not the Aob o% the therapist$ Iou
&ight argue that it would so&eti&es be right to con%ront so&eone with what they=ve done3 or say
they=ve done3 and see to it that they=re3 in so&e way3 on a path to being called to account by
others$ But is it really %or a therapist to initiate that &oveJ That would so co&pro&ise the
potential space o% therapy that3 on balance3 it would be destructive$

Ste#e: 2lso there are all /inds o% issues around the legal syste& and the prison syste&$
;hat is their e%%icacy to rehabilitate and so onJ Is incarcerating people always the best answerJ
The grand &oral position is to not do violence to the other person$ Mostly the people who co&e
to therapy in one way or another are doing violence to other people3 o%ten in ways o% which
they=re not aware$ By being cut+o%% to the other person3 and being so sel%+involved and sel%+
centred3 they %ail to respond at all to the other person3 let alone respond in a responsible way$
2nd so i% one could turn that around3 i% you enable so&eone to be &ore aware o% other people3
and to do less violence3 to &e that would be the ethical value o% the therapy I try to practise$

"eon: I thin/ we=re on to so&ething very3 very i&portant$ ;hat Steve=s Aust said begins
to go at least so&e way towards answering a ?uestion that ca&e up last night %or Christa and &e$
;e had Aust been watching the latest episode o% a television progra&&e on the NaGisFdid you
see itJ

!ob: I saw a bit o% it the last ti&e$

"eon: Most o% chapter 0 in your 5oices of 3ain4 Lithuania in Transition was on the
Bolocaust in Lithuania3 and the collaboration o% locals with the NaGis that resulted in near total
@success= o% the operation there$ So on this progra&&e they were showing %our leading NaGis3
each o% the& in charge o% a particular Gone in Europe %or e9ter&ination3 which they had a code
word %or+=evacuation=$ 2ll o% the& were @educated= guys3 one o% the& with two doctorates$ I still
%ind it3 as do &ost o% the witnesses who tal/ about it3 hard to grasp$ Bow could people actually
do thisJ Christa was saying we=re all capable o% that$ I was saying that while &ost o% us &ay be
capable o% &urder3 I=& not sure &ost o% us are capable o% that. I thin/ the i&portant ?uestion is'
-o# can #e live our lives #ith others so as to contribute to a #orld #here the occurrence of
such horrors beco!es less and less likely1 It=s perhaps the i&portant ?uestion at the end o% a
century with a horri%ic trac/ record o% so &any instances o% brutality and evil3 on a &assive scale3
&ost o% the& govern&ent sanctioned$

;e=re tal/ing about the ethical relation to the 6ther3 being very concerned and
considerate o% how we treat other people3 not doing violence to others$ Now there are all /inds o%
ways o% /illing$ Beside biological /illingF&urderFthere are all /inds o% ways that we &urder
each otherC /ill each otherC /ill the spirit in each otherC /ill the space o% what &ight go on
between usC /ill the possibility o% loveC /ill the possibility o% any honesty or truthC /ill the
possibility o% anything %lowing between us by not listening to each other3 by not actually
responding to each other3 by not being responsible %or one another$ Now I &ight not be able to
stop the ne9t holocaust in the Bal/ans3 or central 2%rica3 or the ne9t one to co&e in 2sia3 but
surely giving priority to the relationship with the other person is a step in the right direction3 in
the direction o% an non+naive goodness which can give evil so&e considerable resistance$

Ste#e: I Aust want to say there=s a Bitler or Bi&&ler in each o% us that we need to be
aware o%3 that can co&e out$ It=s not only the &acro+situationFpolitics with a big @D=Fbut
&icro+politics3 @do&estic violence= we need to watch out %or$

"eon: This is what Christa was saying3 and I was saying I don=t /nowC I /now that
there=s a potential &urderer in all o% us3 but I don=t /now that there=s a potential3 calculating
&ass+&urderer in all o% us$

!ob: I don=t accept that %or a &inuteH

"eon: ;hichJ Murder or &ass+&urderJ

!ob: Neither &urder nor &ass+&urder$ I thin/ it=s abdicating our responsibility$ There=s
absolutely no doubt that I can get angry and Aealous3 and I can %eel venge%ul3 but I=& a vegetarian
FI believe in the sanctity o% li%e$ 2nd I %antasise that &y hunger would still not drive &e to eat
other hu&ans i% I was one o% the %ew who survived an air crash in re&ote &ountains3 or
whatever$ I could not be cannibalistic$ 2nd I certainly couldn=t &urder3 I couldn=t /ill$ I couldn=t
i&agine any weapon that I could use to do that$ 2nd I thin/ it=s a clichE that the &urderer and
the Bitler is in us all$ 2s %ar as I=& concerned there are good people in this world and there are
bad people$ There are so&e who are trying to be better3 and there are so&e who are trying to be
worse$ I do not believe that the young Buddhist &on/ I &et in varanasi3 a Sri Lan/an3 the &ost
beauti%ul creature I have ever clapped &y eyes on3 I do not believe he could &urder$ 2nd I don=t
thin/ I could &urder$

Ste#e: ;ell I disagree$ I thin/ that we can=t be co&placent$ Bitler is to &e a sy&bol o%
the personi%ication o% evil, and I thin/ it=s very possible to be involved with evil in so &any
di%%erent ways3 and it=s o%ten si&ply Aust accepting the evil that=s being done to others that is evil$
I thin/ that there=s an enor&ous a&ount o% evil around that we allow$ I thin/ that we are i&&une
to and anaesthetised %ro& it$

!ob: That=s a di%%erent ?uestionH

Ste#e: I don=t agree$ 8or &e it=s the sa&e ?uestion$ violence is evil$ 2nd as Leon is
saying3 all these things are cu&ulative3 and they all have to do with the accu&ulation o% control3
power and &ight3 &anipulation o% others3 and it=s going on all the ti&e everywhere3 and we are
all I thin/ i&plicated in it to so&e greater or lesser e9tent$ 2nd it=s very di%%icult to %ind a s/il%ul
&eans to resist it3 and to ta/e responsibility %or ourselves in this$ I thin/ this is a very co&ple9
and di%%icult proble&atic$

"eon: But you couldn=t see yoursel% &urdering anybodyJ

Ste#e: No$

"eon: Could you see yoursel% being silent in the %ace o% &urderJ Not doing anything
about itJ

!ob: The way that Steve has re%or&ulated the issue3 I would say yes3 o% course3 I have
contributed to the &urder o% people by re&aining silent$ In the sa&e way that Ronnie would
always say QEvil happens when good &en stand by and do nothingR$FLpausesMFThe boo/ o%
Ronnie=s that has had the &ost i&pact in &y li%e is The 3olitics of E&perience and The 7ird of
3aradise because it tried to &a/e a connection between the individual and society and the
&acro+structures we are e&bedded in$ But these days not only is there no youth%ul rebellion3 but
the tone is o% the politics o% co&pro&ise$

"eon: ;e could approach this in a di%%erent way$ I love the teaching o% one o% the Basidic
rabbis that Martin Buber tal/s about in his Tales of the -asidic ,asters. ;hen3 as he lay dying3
his students as/ed %or a %inal teaching3 he said QStart with yoursel%3 but don=t ai& at yoursel%R$ I
translate that as starting with &y responsibility$ But that=s not starting with &e3 it=s starting with
the 6ther$ It=s putting the other person %irst$ 2nd ta/ing responsibility %or the 6ther$ But I have to
start with &y responsibility$ Now i% I don=t start with that3 I thin/ that anything else that I do is
li/ely to be co&pro&ised3 or con%used3 or &iss the &ar/$ 2nd any action3 intended as
contributing to &oving away %ro& the evil we were tal/ing about3 that doesn=t start with &y own
responsibility to the 6ther3 and to Austice %or the other 6thers in relation to &e3 would be rightly
suspect as ethically %lawed$ So one thing I can do3 or aspire to do3 is ta/e responsibility %or the
other person I=& in relation to and e9tend that to the co&&unity3 and to the world3 that I live in$
Now that doesn=t &ean that I=& co&pletely sel%less$ It doesn=t &ean that I=& not loo/ing a%ter
&e too$ I% I don=t ta/e care o% &ysel% too3 then I can=t be in good shape %or listening to what
Steve is saying3 to be having a phone conversation with you3 and being able to put &y &ind to
so&e proble& that you=ve put to &e$ So I=ve got to be caring %or &ysel% as well$

Ste#e: I share concerns %or issues that are social and political3 yetat the end o% the day3
trying to change the world as a politician was a career plan I gave up on ?uite early onC I %elt that
people involved in politics3 particularly radical student politics in the si9ties3 acted toward one
another in horrible ways3 and it Aust didn=t &a/e sense$ Bow was there going to be a &ore Aust
society i% the people who thought they were going to bring this about re&ained the sa&eC that is3
treated one another in an incredibly indi%%erent way3 or even worseJ Later3 what interested &e
about Ronnie=s approach3 and the reason I was drawn to it3 was that he was concerned with
!icro+rather than !acro.political change and transfor!ation. Be was3 %or e9a&ple3 ta/ing on
psychiatryFthe &icro+political institution o% psychiatry$ Even this turned out to be ?uite a big
chun/ to try to bite o%%3 to change such an entrenched institutionFvery3 very di%%icult and
co&ple93 and his trac/ record is hard to evaluate$ So&e people say he &ade a huge i&pact3 and
&uch o% what he proposed has been integrated now into psychiatry3 while other people say he
&ade no i&pact at all3 it=s as bad today as be%ore he began$ So %a&ily and institutional changeF
&icro+politicsFare very intractable and di%%icult$ I certainly thin/ the ethical one+to+one
situation which we deal with in therapy has crucial i&plications %or the political3 andEor issues o%
Austice$ Bow people are able to create a &ore Aust society and to live well is really a ?uestion
about the art o% living3 a ?uestion as old as Dlato$ In %act3 it is the nu&ber one issue %or Dlato$
Bow do you create a Aust polis OstateP3 a Aust societyJ I don=t /now that we=re any s&arter or any
&ore progressed in dealing with the proble&atics o% this ?uestion than the Gree/s were two
thousand %ive hundred years ago3 probably less so$

!ob: >ust to change the subAect %or a &o&ent3 has psychiatry changed since Ronnie=s
ti&eJ

"eon: ;ell3 as you /now3 I=& not involved in psychiatry directlyC I=& practising as a
psychotherapist outside o% the psychiatric syste&$ But &y i&pression is that it has not changed
very &uch3 and what changes there have been are &ore a %unction o% econo!ics and political
priorities than o% the in%luence o% Laing$ 8or instance3 when I %irst ca&e to this country in #.013
here3 as in 2&erica3 there was o%ten a real ris/ o% so&eone who was &entally @unstable=3
severely distressed andEor distressing to others being ta/en to a psychiatric e&ergency roo& o% a
general hospitalFusually by the police or the person=s %a&ilyFand getting ad&itted with a
diagnosis o% schiGophrenia3 or another %or& o% psychosis$ I% such people didn=t respond within
two to si9 wee/s3 to tran?uillising drugs andEor electric shoc/ @therapy=3 they would probably be
sent o%% to a &ore chronic long+stay hospital$ So&eti&es people were sent directly to the long+
stay place3 especially i% they=d had a prior psychiatric history$ 2nd people would o%ten spend
&onths3 years3 or even the rest o% their lives in those institutions$ In those days3 i% I re&e&ber
correctly3 the li%e e9pectancy %or so&eone over si9ty years o% age3 sent to Manhattan State
Bospital3 was only si9 to twelve &onthsH So those were seldo& good places to be$

Today it=s usually &ore di%%icult to get co&&ittedC people don=t get co&&itted or
certi%ied psychiatrically as &uch as they used to be3 and it=s certainly less li/ely that you=re going
to be put away %or a long ti&e3 because the econo&ics o% the situation now is that the long+stay
hospitals are cleared out because they=re too e9pensive3 or they were thought to be too
e9pensive$ I=& not sure they were really a greater e9pense than society is paying %or people to be
sent bac/ into what=s opti&itistically3 or cynically3 called the @co&&unity= and get what=s called
%co!!unity care0which usually has very little to do with any uncorrupted &eaning and sense
o% co!!unity or care. It=s basically a way o% trying to deal with people on the &argins o% society
as cheaply as possible$ 2nd it probably doesn=t even wor/ in that way$ But I thin/ it=s that3 plus
the %act that &ore people are on tran?uillising drugs3 and so need spend less ti&e in hospital$
They are being che!ically contained and controlled, che&ically relieved o% their disturbing
thoughts and %eelingsFwhether they want to be so relieved3 and in that way3 or notFand &ade
easier %or others to live with$ ;hat price they3 and we3 are paying %or that contain&ent3 control
and relie% in ter&s o% lost possibilities o% being and relating is another3 and obviously
%unda&ental3 ethical ?uestion$ But I thin/ those %actors account %or any change in psychiatry %ar
&ore than any ta/ing on o% Ronnie=s provocation$ That hasn=t really been ta/en on board at all$
;hat do you thin/J

Ste#e: No3 I don=t thin/ it has3 and also I would say that the Dhiladelphia 2ssociation has
not &ade &uch o% an i&pact either$ 6% course we=ve &ade a start by wor/ing as an organisation
that at least has &ade a contribution3 at least to this ?uestion o% responding to the @%rea/ed out=
and the &arginalised$ I thin/ the Dhiladelphia 2ssociation was &ost success%ul in the Bugh
Craw%ord days$ Bugh was a colleague o% Ronnie=s3 and I wor/ed with hi&C I was a &e&ber o%
his houseFDortland Road$ ;e had a very di%%erent approach to so+called @co&&unity care=$ 6ur
house was a place %or people to have a ho&e3 to be at ho!e despite the %act that they were
&arginalised and unstrung$ It all ca&e down to what Bugh called psycho+econo&ic issues$ ;e
were not in the least concerned with psychiatry$ Nevertheless Bugh at one point was accused
Oeven though he was a psychiatristP o% harbouring &ental patients$ By having the& in his ho&e$
2ll the legal %orces3 social and environ&ental3 did everything in their power to close us down$
;ithout invo/ing a conspiracy theory it=s easy to see that we were a %ly in the oint&ent3 that is to
say the syste&$

"eon: I&agine being accused o%= harbouring= so&eone vulnerable3 giving the& a
harbour3 a port in a stor&3 a place to co&e and be secure3 to be sa%e$ I&agine being accused o%
thatH

Ste#e: Deople who are &oved out o% large &ental hospitals still beco&e institutionalised
in s&all co&&unity %acilities3 which still wor/ on regi&es where sta%% are o%%ering custodial
care$ The patient population is drugged+up$ Datients beco&e very dependent on institutional ways
o% living3 as opposed to having a sense o% being at ho&e3 and recovering$ Being at ho&e is being
allowed to be in your own s/in3 at ho&e in your own ho&e$

!ob: I read in The Ti!es last wee/ that yet another research psychiatrist %ro& yet another
London teaching hospital has stated that they=ve isolated %urther genetic co&ponents o%
schiGophrenia$ <o you view that with the /ind o% disdain that Ronnie consistently didJ

"eon: I tend to3 but I haven=t %ollowed that literature %or a while$ I haven=t heard o%
research that attended care%ully to how3 in what conte9t3 by who& and toward what end the
diagnoses were being &adeFor that ade?uately considered what %actors other than genetic ones
could e9plain bioche&ical or other %indings$ Iou could as/ i% it isn=t irresponsible o% &e not to
/eep up with that research$ ;ell3 it &ight be$ 6ne day researchers &ight %ind bioche&ical3
physiological3 even genetic correlations with @schiGophrenia=Fcorrelations which point to a
genetic predisposition or genetic trans&ission o% whatever it is that constitutes @schiGophrenia=$
But that won=t di&inish &y conviction that anyone who is su%%eringF=schiGophrenic= or notF
deserves to be listened to attentively and co&passionately3 and to be responded to responsibly$
I=d still have to understand so&ething o% the social conte9t that this dra&a was un%olding within3
as part o% &y understanding o% the 6ther3 whether or not there=s a genetic predisposition3 or
genetic incidence$ So I thin/ I=& a bit irresponsible not /eeping up with the research3 but not
%unda&entally so$

Ste#e: 2s %ar as genetic research goes3 you can &a/e an analogy between genetics and
co&puter hardware$ Bow we are in a relationship is &ore li/e so%tware3 and has &uch &ore to
do with neural+networ/s$ Iou &ight have all /inds o% genetic predispositions to pathology3 and
yet your way o% being in the world &ay be ?uite 6:3 or have a ?uite 6: genetic pro%ile and still
not be 6:$ There is no auto&atic relationship between genetics and the way you are in a
relationship and in the world$

!ob: 6:3 changing the subAect again3 can we tal/ about why people tell liesJ

Ste#e: I thin/ that=s a very %unda&ental ?uestion$ I thin/ people tell lies to the&selves
&ost o% all$

"eon: Deople have secretsF

Ste#e: I thin/ 8reud3 whatever else he was on about3 was very aware that people suffer
fro! the secrets that they have$ 2nd people don=t trust their secrets with others$ There are secrets
that people will ta/e to a therapist in order to prove they can /eep the secrets$ They want to
practise avoiding telling their secret$ I% they can get away with it in therapy3 then they %eel pretty
secure$ This a&ounts to holding on to your illness$ Even though they co&e with the espoused
intention o% getting better3 people o%ten don=t want to do what is necessary to %eel better$ This
usually re?uires that you speak the truth.

"eon: But he=s as/ing a ?uestion3 not Aust in relation to patients in therapyF

Ste#e: ;hy do they tell liesJ They have secrets to hide$ They want to /eep their secretsF

"eon: That=s one reason$ Deople also tell lies %or sel%+aggrandise&ent or because there=s
so&ething in it %or the&3 or so they calculate' I=ll get so&ething i% you believe this andEor see &e
in such and such a wayFi$e$ that Aob3 that business deal3 or I &ight get introduced to so&eone I
want to &eet$

Ste#e: Sel%+servingF

"eon: Sel%+aggrandise&ent3 sel%+centred3 sel%+serving3 sel%ishF

Ste#e: 2ll theseF

"eon: 2lso de%ensiveFit &ay or &ay not be part o% the sa&e thing3 but also de%ensive3 to
protect$ I &ight lie because I don=t want to have to %ace the conse?uences o% so&e action o%
&ine$ I didn=t do it3 it wasn=t &e$ 6r I &ight lie in a way that &ight &a/e it i&possible %or you to
pin so&ething on &e$ In other words I &ight evade responsibility %or so&ething I have done or
not done$ I &ight want to protect &ysel% %ro& da&age$ 6r %ro& you e9pecting so&ething o% &e$
I &ight also o% course want to protect so&eone else$ I &ight lie to the GestapoFRNo I haven=t
seen any >ews hereR3 when in %act I=& hiding a three+year old child3 but I=& not going to tell the
Gestapo3 because to tell the truth would be to &urder the child3 and they=d probably /ill &e too$
2nd so I=& not going to do that$ I &ight lie to protect you$

I was al&ost te&pted to tell a white lie to you yesterday when you called up3 Bob3
an9ious that so&e sy&pto&s you were &ani%esting could point to serious and incapacitating
pathology$ I was ..$.X sure it was an e&otional and an9iety crisis3 but thought one is obliged3
once one thin/s o% so&ething3 to chec/ it out$ I thought i% I told you the worst case scenario3 that
you &ight have so&e aneurys& that &ight be ballooning out and could burst one day3 you=d
panicH But I thought I=d better tell you3 because I thought the truth was going to be less
%rightening to you than your i&agination$ Especially i% you=d pic/ed upFwhich you probably
would have doneFthat I &ight be hiding so&ething$ But the consideration not to tell you the
whole truth o% what I was thin/ing at that &o&ent was to protect you3 to save you %ro&
unnecessary su%%ering$ I &ight o&it to tell the whole truth in a relationship3 because I don=t want
to hurt the other person$ But now we=re touching on lies o% o&ission andEor co&&ission that
have the power to deceive in a way that corrupts the %abric o% our relatedness$ 2nd though I
&ight delude &ysel% into believing that I=& protecting another %ro& being hurt3 in %act I=& on a
path to under&ining trust and losing &ysel% and doing a violence to the possibility o% love$

Ste#e: That is a whole subdivision o% lies3 the lies of love, which Ronnie was studying at
the end o% his wor/ing career$ It=s a &ine%ield3 an absolute &ine+%ield$ There is enor&ous
potential %or disaster %ro& the lies o% love$ Iou &ight say what Ronnie was tal/ing about when
he spo/e o% the %alse sel% is a lie o% love$ So&eone who %eels unlovable &ight create a @loveable=
%agade$

"eon: ;hich is a losin" nu!ber, because how could you possibly get any deep
satis%action %ro& so&ebody loving that %agade3 which3 at so&e level3 you /now isn=t youJ

!ob: Bow central to the proble&s you deal with is a person=s %eeling that they are not
really lovedJ

Ste#e: I would say every person I see brings a $uestion of love, a Qdo you love &eJR as
the heart o% their concern$ Everybody wants to be loved$

!ob: It sounds li/e a >ewish &other3 doesn=t itJ

Ste#e: ;ell3 a >ewish &other would thin/ that they could give you chic/en soup and that
would serve you3 butF

"eon: 2 @>ewish &other= &ight not be sceptical enough or ethical enough to ?uestion and
put hersel% in ?uestion3 and put her love in ?uestion3 as to what is going on between her and her
child3 i$e$ is this really love3 or is this too tinged with control3 with conditions3 with induction o%
guilt and so on3 to be approaching unconditional loveJ

Ste#e: ;ell that=s the proble&3 everybody wants love but can they loveJ 2nd o%ten you
&ight say you can=t e9pect the one without the other$ The therapist can=t by &agic get the client
the love they want or de&and$ But i% you can %ind ways to cultivate in the client their ability to
love3 then the client will surely %ind the love in the world which they now lac/$

!ob: 6:$ Be%ore we continueFLeon3 do you agree with Steve when he says that at base
people are co&ing to therapy because they %eel unlovedJ

"eon: I=d say the inability or constriction o% the ability to love is basic$ But it &ight ta/e
therapy to realise and ac/nowledge that$

Ste#e: I haven=t had a client who& I haven=t %elt at botto& that love is what they were
as/ing %or3 that is what they %elt they were deprived o%3 being loved$ 6% course this privation
&ani%ests itsel% in &ulti%arious ways$

!ob: Bow do you help people to %eel lovedJ

Ste#e: It=s recognition o% other people$ Deople have an idea o% other people3 an ideal o%
other people3 which is really their own idea$ 4ntil they get out o% their ideas3 and &ove into what
I call the world o% relating to other people3 toward the &ystery o% the otherness o% another
person3 there=s no way that they=re ever going to %eel desire3 that is3 a sense o% being able to be
loved as 6ther or %eel desire %or the 6ther=s desire$ )e!and kills desire. 2s long as you de&and
love3 which &eans you re&ain at the centre o% your own narrative and scenario3 everyone then
beco&es &erely a supporting cast %or your scenario$ Iou will then never %eel satis%ied3 because
you=ve /illed the otherness o% the other person$ 2nd you can=t recognise that the other person
desires you3 you=ve already precluded it to the e9tent that you=ve re&ained closed to otherness
and are basically sel%ish$ So as long as you are de&anding you will never be satis%ied$ <e&and is
in%inite and can never be satis%ied3 it Aust in%lates and raises the need3 and this is why 8reud
counsels that psychotherapy should be %rustrating$ 2nd what he &eans by that is to %rustrate
de&and3 not to accede or collude with de&and$ This in ti&e allows desire to co&e %orth$
6bviously this is put as though you could do it as a &ethod3 li/e there=s Aust one thing that it=s
about$ 2nd o% course there=s as &any di%%erent ways around this as there are the singular
individuals with who& you=re dealing$

"eon: 2lso Steve used the ter& @recognise=$ 6% course it=s not really about a re+cognition3
because it=s not about a cognition3 so it=s so&ething &ore i&&ediate than cognising or
recognising$

Ste#e: It=s deeper than that3 although that=s part o% it$

"eon: Even i% we %ound that &any di%%erent paths converged onto one %unda&ental path3
there=s not one way$ I don=t believe that Steve has one way3 and I=& sure that I don=t have one
way o% spea/ing3 listening3 responding to another person$ I thin/ it=s singular in each case$ ;e
each have our own way3 and probably with di%%erent people that way is signi%icantly di%%erent3
because a %unda&ental obAect o% the e9ercise is to help people %ind their own way$

Ste#e: I thin/ what we agree on is the i&portance o% the Other, which perhaps
di%%erentiates our starting point and our way %ro& other so+called therapeutic approaches or
schools$ Instead o% as/ing how I can be a better therapeutic agent3 in order to bring about3 %or this
other person3 so&e /ind o% therapeutic e9perience3 we turn it around and say this other person
has to guide &e$ The other person has to ta/e the initiative$ I need to be tuned to the other person
%irst and %orget anything that I thin/ I /now about so+called therapeutic intervention$ I have to let
go o% &y bag o% tric/s or tool+/it3 and start by really getting a sense o% that other person$ In this
way that other person &ay develop a relationship with &e through which healing can occur$ I
thin/ we both do this$ Drobably others do it i&plicitly3 but they don=t call it that3 or don=t spea/
o% it in Aust this way$

!ob: I /now a behavioural therapist who sent his daughter to a psychoanalyst$ Iet he=s
&a/ing his &oney out o% practising as a behavioural therapist$ I was wondering whether you
apply the principles that you wor/ with in the consulting roo& to your own li%eJ Iour personal
li%e$

"eon: I=& wanting to be as authentic and honest in &y relationships outside o% this roo&
as inside this roo&$ There are di%%iculties$ I=ve tal/ed to Steve about so&e o% the di%%iculties I=ve
had over ti&e3 which I=& still trying to %ind &y way with$ In therapy I do try to listen very
care%ully3 to really hear what the others are saying3 and ta/e responsibility %or helping the& to
hear what they=re saying that they &ight not be hearing i% &y response and interventions didn=t
help the& to hear it$ 2 proble& arises as I have a tendency to continue doing that outside o% this
therapy roo&3 including at ho&e and at social gatherings$ Now3 as %ar as I can tell3 that=s &e3
that=s not &e playing the therapist$ Its &e having a hard ti&e not listening and hearing3 as I=&
practising listening and hearing a lot o% the ti&e$ It can get &e into trouble$ Steve re&inds &e
that one o% the %unda&ental di%%erences between a therapy session and a gathering o% %riends or
%a&ily3 is that people who co&e to therapy are i&plicitly3 i% not also e9plicitly3 as/ing %or &e to
be attentive3 to listen and not let the& not hear what they=re saying3 and not hear what I=&
saying$ They &ight also want to get away with it3 there &ight be that struggle3 but I ta/e it that
their desire %or authenticity and responsibility calls on &e to be on the side o% listening and
@calling the&= on so&ething$ I usually want that %ro& people too$ ;hatever &y con%licts &ight
be3 I aspire to be on the side o% /nowing the truth o% what=s happening3 and being called on
so&ething i% I=& &issing so&ething3 or being irresponsible3 or being evasive$ I &ight want to be
evasive3 but a deeper part o% &e wants not to be$ So in ter&s o% that predilection and pre%erence
o% &ine in ter&s o% being in the world3 and in ter&s o% &y being the pro%essional listener and
responder in situations o% therapy3 I %ind it hard to shut that o%%$ But in discussions with Steve3
he=s pointed out that &y wi%e or daughters or %riends3 or people I &eet at a social gathering3
aren=t necessarily as/ing %or that3 and that I shouldn=t be insisting that they have to live with that$

Ste#e: I thin/ that this ?uestion o% authenticity is very necessary$ It is an e9istential idea
which has to do with Beidegger and sel%+disclosure3 but it=s still &e+or sel%+centred$ So I would
not consider authenticity as pri&ary in ter&s o% the ethical relation$ Ethics has &ore to do with
responsibility$ Responsibility is di%%erent in the therapy roo& than in ordinary li%e$ In therapy I
give the 6ther &y ti&e$ I lease the& &y ti&e3 I have ti&e %or the&$ That I=& able to do that3 to
the e9tent that I a! able3 re?uires that I have a li%e o% &y own$ It=s i&portant that I=& responsible
to other 6thers3 wi%e3 %a&ily3 %riends3 colleagues3 in a %ar &ore &utual way than in relations with
patients$ The proble& %or the patient is o%ten their di%%iculty in establishing %riendships$ ;hen we
can &eet as %riends in the therapy session3 in so&e sense the therapy is over$ Then we can decide
to re&ain %riends or not$ 6rdinary %riendship is in a way &ore subtle$ ;ho is getting whose
attention when is always negotiable and negotiated in each instant$ My relationship with Leon is
li/e that$ Leon so&eti&es tells &e his proble&s3 and I so&eti&es tell hi& &y proble&s$ ;e have
a &utual peer relationship3 and so&eti&es we tal/ about our clients3 and I thin/ that it=s very
i&portant to be able to have the opportunity to have on+going @peer supervision= i% you are doing
this Aob$

"eon: It=s a /ind o% peer supervision$ But you and IF%ollowing on Bob=s ?uestion again
Fyou and I so&eti&es do di%%er on a sensibility and predilection to respond in certain ways in
situations$ Li/e I &ight be in so&e i&passe with &y wi%e3 having to do with so&ething beyond
the content o% the particular issueC having to do with whether there=s a good ?uality o% listening
and hearing going on between us or not3 or whether the thin/ing and e9pressing that=s going on is
o% a ?uality that one would li/e to a%%ir& and say @yes= to3 or whether there=s so&ething that=s
worth co&&enting on rather than Aust letting it go$ 2nd you /now so&eti&es I=ve %elt that3 given
your tal/ o% being responsible %or the 6ther3 which I agree with3 and even though we always %all
short o% the &ar/3 or3 rather3 can never be responsible enough3 so&eti&es we di%%er on the
practice o% this$ So3 %or e9a&ple3 I=ve so&eti&es said to you Q;hy don=t you co&e in on this one
SteveJR I=& thin/ing o% so&e occasions where &y wi%e and I &ight have been at an i&passe in
ter&s o% %reeing the &ove&ent o% conversation and enhancing the ?uality o% conversation3 o%
listening and responding$ Iou=ve been &ore reticent than perhaps I=ve been when the situation is
the other way around3 at co&ing in and co&&enting$ 6r it &ight be that we Aust have di%%erent
ways o% co&&enting$ But I thin/ this is an issue that=s relevant to Bob=s ?uestion$

Ste#e: This has to do with what I call skilful !eans. 2nd I=& developing those s/il%ul
&eans3 which o% course I=d li/e to develop better and be &ore s/il%ul in the &eans I have to
enable other people to have what I would call a &ore 6ther+oriented way o% being able to be3
which would be a &ore responsible way o% being$ 8or instance your being &ore attentive to what
your wi%e hears3 rather than hearing what she doesn=t %ro& your perspective$ But what are the
&ost s/il%ul &eans to do thatJ I %eel by calling her on what she is not hearing so&eti&es &a/es
her withdraw3 and is less s/il%ul in ter&s o% acco&plishing whatever it is that would be desirable
%or you both$ So it=s really a ?uestion o% a di%%erent sensibility as to ho# one goes about bringing
about what we would agree would be a desirable state3 but we o%ten approach it di%%erently$

"eon: ;e run into &any ?uestions and di%%iculties here3 but one o% the& is' what does it
&ean to really accept so&eone elseJ To really accept so&eone as they areJ

Ste#e: 2nd also I=& obviously in a di%%erent relationship to your wi%e than you are3
because she=s not &y wi%e3 and again you=re a couple and I=& in the &iddle$ 2 couple is li/e
scissorsFall o% a sudden you can %ind the& closing in on you3 i% you are in the &iddle$ 2nd so
you &ight %ind &e reticent and wish I=d be &ore %orthco&ing3 but I have a reserve$

"eon: In %airness to the truth o% the situation3 I thin/ I would e?ually welco&e your not
holding bac/ with &e$ That is3 i% you %elt I was o%% or not listening3 and told &e3 even i% I &ight
be bugged by it3 I would welco&e it$

Ste#e: ;ell I have told you at ti&es that the &eans you=re using to %orward your ai&s are
not as s/il%ul as they &ight be$

"eon: Iou have told &e that3 and I agree that you=ve o%ten been right$ 6ne o% the
proble&atics o% relationships that I=& bringing up now is this &atter which %or so&e people
see&s to be a si&ple &atter3 but is %ar %ro& si&pleFwhat it &eans to actually accept so&eone$
Because I &ight accept that so&eone see&s unable to listen to what I a& saying3 or unable to
hear &e$ 2nd it &ight be because he or she is %rightened3 can=t ac/nowledge that %ear3 and is
perhaps clinging on to a particular status ?uo out o% %ear3 or a whole set o% %ears3 o% what &ight
happen i% the status ?uo isn=t clung to or so&e other situation isn=t &oved on to$ So though I can
accept that that=s how that person is3 I &ight see that that person is doing hersel% or hi&sel% in by
staying closed up in that %ear3 and in what &ight be an unnecessarily constricted way o% seeing
and being in the world and &oving through it$ So &y concern %or the 6ther &ight &ove &e3
while accepting the 6ther as he or she is3 and the situation as it is3 to not accepting that that=s
how he3 she or it need continue to be$ 6% course3 the other person &ight be bugging the hell out
o% &e by being that way3 and so &y concern &ight be pri&arily sel%+centred rather than putting
the 6ther %irst$

Ste#e: Sure$

"eon: But then we do co&e bac/ to s/il%ul &eans3 because it &ight be s/il%ul &eans Aust
to leave it alone3 to let go o% trying to change3 and to realise that there=s absolutely nothing I can
do to change &ysel%3 this person andEor this situation at that ti&e3 and in that situation3 in any
way that I have at &y disposal$ I=d li/e to be on the side o% so&e change3 but &aybe the
opportunity Aust hasn=t presented itsel%$ There=s a sense in which it &ust be s/il%ul &eans to
accept what is as it is3 the 6ther as he or she is3 the apparent inter+personal space as it isFor3 in
each case3 as itEheE she see&s to beFwithout attach&ent to any desire %or things to be otherwise$
6ne=s desire %or change3 %or what could be, &ay be responsibly &otivated$ But attach!ent to
such a desire is li/ely to be e"ocentric and so not pri&arily for the 6ther$

Ste#e: There are two types o% ways in which you can coach so&ebody$ Iou could tell
the& QIou=re doing wrong3 do it this wayR$ 2nd so&eti&es I saw Ronnie do this with his wi%e3
with singing3 and he=d &a/e her do it over and over again the way he /new it had to be3 because
he did have a very good ear$ But I could see her getting &ore and &ore and &ore upset with the
situation3 and %eeling battered by it$ 2nd the other way is QIes3 I accept you3 it=s lovely3 you=re
wonder%ul3 but why don=t you try a little &ore o% an accent on this note ne9t ti&e and see
whether you li/e thatJR So you could acco&plish &ore in ter&s o% bringing so&ebody out
through acceptance than you &ight by criticis&$

"eon: 2ctually what you=re tal/ing about is Aust a di%%erent way o% calling so&eone on itC
in other words i% I=& calling you3 I say QSteve I thin/ what you=re saying is really great3 I thin/
it=sFR$

Ste#e: QBut you could e9press it betterFR

"eon: Ies3 so&ething li/e QSteve3 it=s great3 and I thin/ it could even be better i% and I
wonder i% you=ve considered the possibility o%FR and i&plicit in &y saying that to you and you
ta/ing it well is that you %eel that I li/e and respect you and that I=& not trying to put you down$
But you &ight3 nevertheless3 %eel put down3 hurt or angry with what you ta/e to be criticis& in
this way$ My saying so&ething li/e that would be a %unction o% how &uch I &ight %eel that you
re?uire that care%ul3 gentle %or& o% criticis& in order to hear it and be able to consider the &atter$
So&e people re?uire it &ore than others$ I probably re?uire it &ore than I ac/nowledge I re?uire
itC that is3 having so&eone con%ir& that basically they=re saying a @yes= to &e3 as the ground %ro&
which the criti?ue is co&ing$

!ob: Can I as/ you both a ?uestionJ In the end3 &ost o% your therapeutic endeavours
result in trying to get people to thin/ &ore and &ore about what they doF

"eon: Getting people to thin/ whatJ

!ob: To thin/ &ore about what they do3 how they behave with others3 how they see
the&selves$ <o you thin/ that a%%ects your own personal lives in the sense that you %ind
yourselves thin/ing &ore than actingJ I Aust wonder whether there=s a tendency3 i% you spend
your ti&e getting people to see every single angle o% things3 and ta/ing their ti&e and thin/ing
about it3 and co&ing along diligently once a wee/ %or %i%ty &inutes3 that you do the sa&e in your
own lives$

"eon: I understand what you=re as/ing3 and I have to start by considering your ?uestion
and not3 I hope3 in the interests o% avoiding it or evading it$ 8irst o% all3 what do you &ean by
thinkin"1

In &y wor/ with people I want to enhance &ind%ulness o% what=s going on and what=s
being said between us and what=s going on in the person=s li%e in the world$ I do want people to
beco&e3 and hope that I=& helping people to beco&e3 &ore thou"htful in an e!bodied and
ethical #ay. I hope I=& also on that path with the people I live with3 and with who& I=& in
di%%erent /inds o% relationships$ <oes that &ean that that &ind%ulness and attentiveness and
thought%ulness is a substitute %or actingJ ;ell3 i% it is3 it shouldn=t be$ I% it is3 that would be a cut.
off /ind o% thought%ulness$

I=ve been in situations which see&ed unsatis%actory3 %or &ysel% and %or the 6thers3 and
stayed in those situations %or a long ti&e3 believing things could change %or the better$ I=ve
tended to thin/ that i% I could ta/e &ore responsibility %or &y own way o% being in a situation3 i%
I could be &ore open+hearted3 open+&inded3 and so on3 then that would al&ost certainly have an
e%%ect on what was going on around &e$

2nd I thin/ all that=s true$ But probably although I=ve thought that3 I haven=t su%%iciently
realised and acted on it$ It=s easier to thin/ that way than to really put yoursel% in ?uestion and be
&ore responsibly and lovingly responsive$

;hat I thin/ you=re pointing to with that ?uestion3 %ollowing on %ro& private
conversations we=ve had3 is a %rustration I=ve had in &y &arriage with feelin" that &y wi%e didn=t
listen to and<or hear &e as well as I wished she could and would3 that perhaps the !e that she
was relating to didn=t correspond to the !e I too/ and %elt &ysel% to be$ So&ething li/e that is a
proble& %or &any people in relationships and it=s o%ten %rustrating and pain%ul and li&its a
&utually sensed inti&acy$ 6r it=s a sign o% that li&itation$ Given that3 you=re wondering why I
don=t ta/e so&e decisive action like leave, or so&ehow initiate radical change which would &a/e
things better %or all concerned$ Iou=ve got in &ind a decision that you &ade about a relationship
that you le%t3 which you %eel was a hard but right decision and &ove %or you3 and you=re
wondering whether &y pro%essional engage&ent with people3 and way o% thin/ing about these
situations3 is an obstacle to ta/ing decisive e9istential action in the world$

Iou probably thin/ that it=s irresponsible to onesel% and others to stay in a situation li/e
that$ But it can also be a great opportunity %or people to put the&selves in ?uestion and learn
so&e tough but valuable lessons$ It=s hard to /now in any given situation when you=ve really
e&hausted all possibilities. 2nd the risks o% that way o% thin/ing include e9haustionH I3 or
whoever else we could be spea/ing o%3 &ight get e9hausted or e9haust the others in the process
o% not wanting to &a/e a &ove be%ore e9hausting all the possibilitiesH But i% one can &ind%ully
rela&, attend to and ackno#led"e one=s own Oego+centricP attach!ents and let "o o% the&3 the
whole situation really can radically transfor!. That=s not easy until it=s easy$ It=s a li%e+wor/ and
not everybody=s cup o% tea$ % a& the biggest obstacle to this &ove&entH

Ste#e: I=& going to co&e in here %or a &inute$ The /ind o% thin/ing that people do with
us is possible because we=re outside their circle$ 2nd it is then a di%%erent /ind o% a thin/ing than
when one is thin/ing through one=s own li%e$ But again3 thin/ing about things is di%%erent than
thin/ing %ro& the&$ 2nd I thin/ when you=re using the ter& @thin/ing=3 it=s thin/ing about3
which is a bit o% a circle$ Iou ru&inate about things$ But you=re not really thin/ing %ro& where
you=re at$ This /ind o% thinkin" is thankin"= it is active and &editative rather than calculative$
Inaction can be a high degree ol%action$ ,asterful inactivity allows things that are co&ple9 to
play out and e&erge$ So Aust because you=re not always doing so&ething3 doesn=t &ean you=re
not acting$ In %act you &ay be acting in ways that are doing very little other than going round in
circles as a headless chic/en3 when it would be %ar better to allow a happening to un%old$ So
again I thin/ it needs teasing out what e9actly we=re tal/ing about that we are calling @thin/ing=
and @acting=$

!ob: I recently read a report in the newspaper about the nu&ber o% doctors and dentists
who are addicted to drugs3 si&ply because o% their availability$ I was Aust thin/ingFwhat is
available in your tradeJ Derhaps what you could be addicted to is not being able to see the wood
%or the trees$

"eon: Derhaps you can be addicted to not being able to see the wood %or the treesJ ;hat
would the wood be and what would the trees be in this &etaphorJ

!ob: ;ell I thin/ the cynical view o% the therapeutic encounter is the over+elaboration o%
the obvious$ Therapy is supposed to enable you to have a li%e3 not to be a substitute %or a li%e$
Bow &uch do you really have to tal/ about thingsJ 6n the one hand we could tal/ about
everything %or ever3 and it would be %ine$

"eon: ;ell it &ight be$

!ob: It &ight be$ But on the other hand3 you do get a sense at ti&es that people &ight
Aust tal/ %or the sa/e o% tal/ing3 and they re%use to act$ 2nd so that=s what I &ean by not being
able to see the wood %or the treesF

Ste#e: I had a couple who ca&e to see &e$ They %elt they needed to see &e to get
divorced3 because they couldn=t even tal/ about getting divorced$ 2%ter our session when they
realised how both were &a/ing their contribution which resulted in an inability to tal/ to one
another3 they actually decided to give it another chance$

!ob: 2ll I=& si&ply saying is that there is a tendency to over+elaborate the obvious3 and
to not %ace the obvious3 which &ight well be staring you in the %ace$

Ste#e: 2gain though3 what=s obvious, as Ronnie o%ten said3 to so&e people3 isn=t always
obvious to other people$ So i% it=s obvious that so&ebody is sabotaging hisEher ability to have a
&eaning%ul relationship3 they=re nowhere with any other person3 they=ve no %riends in the world3
they=re totally isolated3 then they will need a period o% ti&e3 an incubation, to be able to arrive in
the roo! to begin therapy$ They &ay loo/ li/e they=re there3 but they &ay Aust be Au9taposed3 and
they &ay spend a year or two %irst Aust avoiding ac/nowledging that they=re actually in the roo&
with you$ Now that=s obvious to you when you=re seeing that3 but i% you did a &ovie ca&era
version o% it3 they would be &ani%estly in the roo& as having duti%ully co&e to the session3 but
they=re not there$ They=re Aust not there$ It could ta/e a couple o% years so&eti&es %or the& to
arrive$ Iou could say that once they arrive they can leave$

!ob: Leon3 perhaps this isn=t a good thing to tal/ aboutJ

"eon: I thin/ it=s a very good thing to tal/ about$ But a di%%iculty I have in tal/ing about
it3 and considering putting so&e o% this in a boo/3 is that in tal/ing about &y own inti&ate
relationships and addressing the proble&atic o% inti&acy3 itsel% in ?uestion in these relationships3
is that I=& not only spea/ing o% &e3 but tal/ing about so&eone else3 so&eone identi%iable$ I don=t
%eel that I have license to tal/ about so&ething that involves so&eone else in that particular way3
without clearance$ But I don=t %eel uneasy in &ysel% tal/ing about it at all$

Ste#e: I also disagree$ I don=t thin/ that it=s an addiction to be sel%+e9a&ining$ I thin/ it=s
crucial %or the art of livin". The une9a&ined li%e is not worth living3 according to Socrates$ 2
&anage&ent consultant told &e a relevant story the other day$ Be was as/ed by a senior &anager
co&plaining about the high cost o% training to Austi%y the botto&+line value o% training and
education in &anage&ent$ Be answered3 QI% you really want to try so&ething e9pensive3 try
ignoranceR$FLpausesMF;hat do you see us as addicted toJ <o you thin/ we &iss so&e %orestsJ

!ob: It=s hard to say really$ I &ean I don=t /now you both that well$ I=ve tal/ed to Leon a
little bit3 and I suspect he=s not as decisive in his own li%e as he &ay be in his advice to other
people$ 6r perhaps with other people he is as indecisive or as considered asF

"eon: IndecisiveEdecisive is di%%erent %ro& consideredEnot consideredF

Ste#e: 2lso you=ve got to re&e&ber that the therapeutic ritual is a special %or& o% li%e$ It
is ?uite ri"orous= %or e9a&ple you &eet people at a regular speci%ied ti&e$ I% they don=t co&e
they still pay$ Everything that happens in and outside the session is grist %or the &ill o%
interpretation$

!ob: I still have a big3 big proble& with everything you doF

"eon: ;ith everything that Steve does3 or that both o% us doJ

Ste#e: ;ith therapy as suchJ

"eon: ;hat are the %unda&ental di%%iculties you have with itJ

!ob: ;ell I=& British3 and so I=& &uch &ore e&pirical and prag&atic than an 2&erican
who has been raised in the culture o% psycho+babble3 or psychoanalysis$ 2nd so I still loo/ %or
results$ 2nd apart %ro& the proli%eration o% bogus counselling courses3 I have also &et so&e o%
the top practitioners in the psychotherapeutic %ield who do not inspire &e with con%idenceF

"eon: The people who are &ost well+/nown and that sort o% thingJ

!ob: IeahFThe therapeutic endeavour is so une9a&ined$ I don=t li/e >e%%rey Masson
any &ore than anyone else does3 and I thin/ he=s an e9tre&ist3 but he has a pointFthat there are
people all over the placeF

Ste#e: ;ho are abusiveF

!ob: Ta/ing &oney3 %or whatJ 2nd I consider that i% you belong to a synagogue with a
%riendly rabbi3 or a Catholic church with a %riendly priest3 you can get the sa&e thing %or nothing$

Ste#e: Iou don=t %ind %riendship3 the concept o% %riendship3 di%%icultJ

!ob: I don=t have to pay %or it$

Ste#e: Ieah3 but that=s the ?uestion though3 can you always tal/ to a %riend about the
things that you are worried aboutJ Iou &ay already /now what they thin/ anyway i% they=re
your %riend3 and then you don=t need to tal/ about it3 or you=ve tal/ed as &uch as you can with
the&3 but you want really so&e people who& you can trustF

!ob: But to &e that=s a crucial point you=ve hit on$ Now I=ve had an up+and+down
relationship with Leon over the years %or a variety o% reasons3 usually to do with &e not turning
up %or things3 but the point is I %eel really close to Leon3 really close$ Now I have proble&s3 I=ve
had the& recently3 but I /now I could not solve the& pro%essionally with Leon$

Ste#e: No3 that=s right$

!ob: I% Leon was prepared to help &e as a %riend3 he could help &e3 and I could tal/ with
hi&$ But because he is a %riend now3 I could not see hi& pro%essionally$

"eon: That=s right$

Ste#e: 2nd that=s the point$

!ob: ;ell it is and it isn=t$ Because3 I a& not sure that the things that I could tal/ to Leon
about as a %riend are the things that I could tal/ about with anybody else pro%essionally$

Ste#e: ;ell this is &aybe your idea o% pro%essional$ The e9perience o% gaining co&plete
trust in so&eone so as to be able say whatever co&es to you involves &ore than %riendship$ To
have so&eone really there3 putting you %irst3 Aust listening3 really hearing what you=re saying3 this
is beyond usual %riendship$ To as/ your %riend %or this could /ill the %riendship$ 2s a therapist you
do &ove %ro& the role o% being ta/en as a rather i&personal pro%essional3 to beco&ing a personal
and inti&ate 6ther but within boundries$ Deople %ind inti&acy therapeuticC &ost people get better
in therapy which &eans they %eel better3 %eel &ore3 beco&e better at %eeling$ By pursuing the
?uestions involved in the art o% living3 in a dialogue with so&eone else3 so&e wisdo& or @wising
up= &ight e&erge$ Two heads are better than one$ But this is not an e!pirical science$ Iou can=t
&easure inti&acy$

CHAPTER N*NE

PERSONA" S%$$ER*N)

2 very personal set o% conversations in which Gans and Redler describe their own
depressions3 the conte9ts in which they arose3 and the circu&stances and interventions which
allowed the& to e&erge the wiser$ In addition3 suicide3 dying and death are discussed$

!ob: ;hy do people get depressedJ 2nd how do you help depressed peopleJ

Ste#e: I=d li/e to tal/ %ro& &y own personal e9perience o% depression' when I le%t a Aob
in philosophy3 teaching philosophy3 %or a variety o% reasons3 but with the idea o% co&ing over
here to London3 wor/ing with Ronnie3 possibly training in psychotherapy3 and I &oved into one
o% the Dhiladelphia 2ssociation OD2P houses3 I too/ to &y bed and I didn=t get out o% it3 virtually3
%or &onths$ I was depressed$ I thought I would never again earn another penny$ I %elt I=d &ade a
dread%ul &ista/e$

!ob: Bow old were youJ

Ste#e: Thirty+two or three$ Now &y sort o% situational depression was not what
psychiatrists &ean when they spea/ o% clinical depression3 but I thin/ I went through what in
ordinary parlance we would de%ine as depression$ Iou si&ply see the world as totally blac/C
you=re inert3 you=re unable to get out o% bed3 you see no light3 it=s Aust a total blac/ /ind o%
picture closed in around you3 and you=re i&&obilised$

!ob: Can you re&e&ber itJ

Ste#e: Ieah3 I can re&e&ber it very well$ It was horrible$ I had brought &y %a&ily into a
D2 house$ My cover story was I was training in psychotherapy$ But obviously I was a patient3 I
couldn=t get up3 I needed the house$ 2nd here we were3 we were living with people in various
stages o% being @%rea/ed+out=$ It was o% course di%%icult &oving %ro& our own ho&e to one roo&
in Dortland Road3 sharing one toilet with twelve other people$ Most o% us were in very %rea/ed+
out states o% one sort or another3 but I %elt luc/y to be there$

!ob: <id people try and help youJ

Ste#e: ;ell3 the help I had was Bugh Craw%ord3 who was &y therapist$ Bugh said you=ve
got to be in the hell that you=re in$ Iou can=t Au&p over your own hell$ Iou=ve Aust got to roast in
it3 until you realise where you are$ 2 principle o% navigation is that you can=t &ove until you
triangulate your position3 in other words3 where you are$ 2nd there was so&ething about the way
I had been up until that point which was %alse3 or pseudo3 or a %a2ade3 or %ictitious3 or not real3 or
not co&pletely genuine3 constructed3 a persona3 that wor/ed %or the li%e that I had been leading as
an acade&ic and an intellectual3 but didn=t have so&ething which I would call heart in it$ 2nd so
I was always wal/ing with a cloud o% despair around &y head$ 2nd this then co&pletely
consu&ed &e in this depression$

!ob: ;hat was it li/e be%ore this depression3 this cloud o% despairJ

Ste#e: ;ell I was very negative about things3 very cynical3 negative in &any ways$ I o%
course had good ti&es as well3 so it wasn=t one+sided3 but I %elt a /ind o% an apathy and a
negativity about li%e$ 2s a philosopher I could have a career engaged in ?uestioning the &eaning
o% li%e so it passed as a /ind o% co&petence$ But underneath it all I was very blac/ and blea/
about li%e=s &eaning and purpose$

!ob: The purpose o% thingsF

Ste#e: Ieah3 what I was here %or3 on this planet3 and what it &eant to be$

!ob: <id that render you i&potentJ :ind o% practically3 se9ually3 things li/e thisJ

Ste#e: 2t ti&es I was3 yeah$

!ob: It was that seriousJ

Ste#e: I realise now loo/ing bac/ that I was very cut+o%%$

"eon: I wouldn=t have thought you had &uch se9ual desire at a ti&e li/e that$

Ste#e: No,

"eon: ;ere you interestedJ ;as this acco&panied by a lot o% an9ietyJ

Ste#e: Ieah3 at ti&es$ But I thin/ I was even anaesthetised to that$ It was a /ind o% very
low+grade %eeling o% dullness$

!ob: ;hen you too/ to your bed3 what happenedJ 2nd what happened when you were
with your %a&ilyJ

Ste#e: ;ell3 &y wi%e was very supportive and brave3 and she said it will pass3 and /ept
up a brave %ace3 went out to wor/ and supported us$ ;hich was not an easy thing to do while she
was also loo/ing a%ter &e and /ind o% beca&e the house &other to the twelve other people in the
house3 eleven other people$ So she had a lot to carry$

!ob: 2nd presu&ably you %elt very asha&ed3 that here was your wi%e loo/ing a%ter you3
and everyone else3 and you were Aust uselessJ

Ste#e: very3 yes$

"eon: Bow did you sleepJ

Ste#e: Great$ I slept a lot$

!ob: So how did you e&erge %ro& thisJ

Ste#e: ;ell3 it was being sic/ o% being sic/$ I Aust got %ed up$ I got sic/ o% &ysel% being
sic/$ So&ehow I reached botto&3 I had reached the pits$ I %elt I went about as %ar down as I could
go3 I was luc/y to have been allowed to %all apart to this e9tent$ 2nd I thin/ I was very
privileged$ 6ne day I Aust got up3 went out and got a Aob as an usher in a &ovie theatre$ >ust to do
so&ething$ So I could wor/$ So I=d get on &y bi/e3 ride down to the :ensington 6deon3 and
wor/ as an usher$

!ob: 2nd how long did you do that %orJ

Ste#e: ;ell I did that &aybe %or a couple o% &onths and then it turned out that a couple
o% people were very generous and gave &e so&e contacts3 and I got so&e part+ti&e teaching
wor/3 and I started to get bac/ into teaching3 and started to get bac/ on the road$ I began to build
a place %or &ysel% over here$ I developed so&e proAects3 and so on and so %orth$ ;e lived in
Dortland Road %or about a year and a hal%$ Therapy was going well$ I was reconnecting to &ysel%$
I was &ore who I was$ I wasn=t tryingFThis %eeling o% purposelessness blew over$ The blac/
cloud o% despair blew over3 and I haven=t %elt it over &y head since then$

!ob: ;hy do you thin/ you developed this sense o% purposelessnessJ

Ste#e: I=d always had it$

!ob: 2nd whyJ

Ste#e: The why is co&ple9$ very early on I thought &y &o& and dad were nuts$ They
were always %ighting when I was very young$ They got divorced3 and they /ept bad+&outhing
each other to &e about one another3 and I thought they were both right about each other$ 2nd so I
had %ro& ?uite a young age to bring &ysel% up$ I was3 I suppose3 an adult %ro& a very early age$
2nd I lived a lot in &y head$ This state o% &ind is called schiGoid$ I was schiGoid %ro& a very
early age$ 2nd one o% the characteristics o% being schiGoid is not being e&bodied3 not being in
the world$ Living in your head creates an e&ptiness o% a certain sort3 an i&poverished
e9perience$ Iou=re always a step ahead o% yoursel%3 you=re always loo/ing at yoursel% at a &eta+
level3 one step re&oved %ro& yoursel%3 you=re not really there in the world$ This leads to the
i&poverish&ent o% your e9perience3 and o% your li%e$

!ob: Iou &ean you can never really enAoy so&ething3 because you=re loo/ing at yoursel%
enAoying itJ

Ste#e: Ieah$

!ob: I /now the %eelingFBas it helped you help othersJ 6r do they have to go through
so&ething the&selvesJ
Ste#e: 6h3 they have to go through it3 but it helps &e to have had so&e %irst+hand
e9perience o% what that=s li/e$ I would be less e&pathic i% I hadn=t had proble&s o% &y own$
6bviously di%%erent people co&e with di%%erent /inds o% proble&s$ 6ccasionally they co&e with
a si&ilar proble&$ There=s so&ething about the way the therapeutic process wor/ed %or &e that
gives &e con%idence3 I %eel positive about it having had a positive e%%ect on &e$

"eon: ;ere you in therapy during the whole o% this ti&eJ

Ste#e: Ies$

"eon: 2nd seeing Bugh several ti&es a wee/J

Ste#e: Ies$

"eon: 2nd would you say that that was o% /ey i&portance in getting through itJ

Ste#e: 2bsolutely$

"eon: <o you thin/ you could have gotten through it without itJ

Ste#e: No$

"eon: ;hy do you thin/ that you couldn=t haveJ

Ste#e: Bugh Craw%ord used to say only you can do it3 but you can=t do it alone$ Iou can=t
get through the hell you=re in without a guide$ Iou need a Nirgil3 so&eone who isn=t showing
you the way3 because no+one /nows what=s the right path %or you3 but so&eone who you %eel is
acco&panying you$ Because the nature o% hell as <ante pictures it is that your hell is what you=re
not seeing$ It=s dar/3 or blac/$ It=s i&penetrable3 and that=s the way I %elt$ So &y therapist held up
a lightFshed light on what was going on in &y li%e so that3 little by little3 I began to see how I
was creating the hell I was in$

!ob: But it still didn=t enable you to get out o% bedJ

Ste#e: Not %or a long ti&e$ E9cept that I did get out o% bed to go to therapy$ 2nd
occasionally to tal/ to people in the house$ It wasn=t that I was in bed twenty+%our hours a day3
seven days a wee/$ 6ne o% the people in the house was in bed %ull+ti&e$ Be would be diagnosed
as psychiatrically catatonic$ But he eventually got out o% bed too$ Be was totally introspective at
the ti&e3 but it=s not li/e there=s an absolute di%%erence between neurosis and psychoses as is
o%ten supposed$

!ob: Leon3 how about your ownJ

"eon: I=ll spea/ about &y @own= in a &o&ent3 which was very &uch a %unction o% not
e9periencing &y li%e as !y o#n. Steve3 you re%er to this an9iety depression setting in once you=re
here in London$ Iou=d brought your %a&ily over3 you=d ?uit your acade&ic post in the States and
possibly burnt your bridges$ Iou=re a%raid you &ight not be able to earn any &oney again3 that
you=d &ade a terrible &ista/e giving up teaching philosophy3 you=d beco&e &ore aware that you
were living in your head$ ;hen you were wor/ing as a philosopher in e9changes with your
colleagues and your students3 tal/ing about li%e3 the &eaning o% li%e3 the &eanings o% &eaning3 o%
being3 the &eaning o% being and o% ethics3 did the ?uestion o% whether any o% you were actually
e&bodying what you were ?uestioning and pondering never seriously co&e upJ

Ste#e: Dhilosophy in the university was very scholastic3 it was very /nowledge+oriented$
2nd I had a ri%t with &y colleagues because I wanted to study 8reud and Laing and
psychoanalysis$ They said that this was not philosophy$

"eon: ;hat about your studentsFdid your students so&eti&es bring in proble&s %ro&
their own lives and invite you3 whether directly or indirectly3 to &a/e you thin/ o% applying these
?uestions to your own li%eJ I &ean was that happeningJ

Ste#e: 6nly indirectly$ ;hat happened was I saw a nu&ber o% students on what was
called an independent study basis$ ;hat they really wanted was therapy3 and I had no training in
it$ They didn=t want to tal/ about their acade&ics3 they wanted to tal/ about their own personal
proble&s$ 2nd that was another reason I really %elt I needed to train in psychotherapy3 i% I was
going to &ove %ro& a sub+ect.oriented approach to education to an individual or person.centred
approach to education which I wanted to do$ I %elt students should build a curriculu& around
the&selves3 rather than con%or& to a series o% hurdles that they have to Au&p over3 Aust because
the curriculu& says so$ In order to beco&e co&petent in individualised education3 I needed to be
s/illed in an area that I had absolutely no e9perience in whatsoeverFin personal relationships$
2nd so I started to get interested and involved in loo/ing at the literature and then doing so&e
wor/shops and practice3 very ele&entary and very beginning wor/ in so&e o% the therapeutic
approaches$ This absolutely estranged &y philosophical colleagues3 who wouldn=t touch therapy
with a barge+pole$ 6nly now3 twenty years later3 is 8reud being rated as a thin/er o% the %irst
order3 than/s to a large e9tent to >ac?ues <errida3 one o% the best philosophical &inds o% our
century3 who reads 8reud as a &aAor philosopher and precursor o% post+&odernity and
deconstruction$FLpausesMFI don=t /now3 Leon3 i% I answered the ?uestion that you were as/ing$

"eon: Mainly you did3 I was Aust wondering whether there weren=t ti&es3 &aybe
&o&ents over the years co&ing up to deciding to leave philosophy and co&ing to London3
where students were as/ing ?uestions thatF

Ste#e: I never thought that I was leaving philosophy really$ I was adding to philosophy$ I
was leaving acade&ic philosophy$

"eon: Ieah3 o% course$

Ste#e: I still don=t %eel I=ve le%t philosophy$ I practise psychotherapy as a philosophical
practice$ But yes3 students= ?uestions were catalysts to putting &ysel% into ?uestion$

!ob: Leon3 one o% the things I=& interested in is when depression leads to suicide3 and
atte&pted suicide3 and I /now you have a lot o% e9perience in that$

"eon: Starting with &ysel%3 &y %irst thoughts o% suicide were as a child3 &aybe ten or
eleven years old$ 2nd all I can re&e&ber is arriving at the thought that I wouldn=t have to /ill
&ysel% as I could3 i% @it=Fli%eFgot too pain%ul3 always run away and survive in a %orest$ I don=t
recall being able to articulate to &ysel% or anyone else what the nature o% the pain or despair was
that led &e to consider suicide via the thought o% not having to atte&pt it$ The idea o% going o%%
and surviving in the %orest was wish%ul %antasy$ I was a city /id who had never been in a %orest
and was &ore dependent and unable to %end %or &ysel% than &ost$ I thin/ the wish is revealing
though$ I wished I wasn=t dependentFI &ean3 not Aust nor&ally dependent on adults as /ids are3
but %eeling dise&powered3 or3 rather3 never having %elt what it was li/e to be e&powered3 able3 to
be on &y own$ I didn=t have a good or %ir& sense o% any @ownness=3 though o% course I didn=t
understand that then$ I tended to thin/ everyone was li/e &e and that i% they didn=t see& to be as
&e3 they &ust be pretending$ So I didn=t really have a sense o% the otherness o% others either$ The
%orest I i&agined was a beauti%ul place3 a natural place with trees3 birds3 non+threatening ani&als$
2nd a place where I was alone$ I thin/ there &ay have been the seeds there o% so&ething I=d
co&e to &uch later3 the thought o% asylu& and re%ugeFbut it didn=t include others to be in
relation to or to be welco&ed by3 and it certainly didn=t begin to include any thought o%
?uestioning who was distressed3 who &ight be proposing to /ill who& or what when suicide was
conte&plated3 or what the source o% the distress andEor despair was$ That would all co&e &uch
later3 only a%ter I=d been in London %or so&e ti&e$

It was a %antasy and an escape route in &y head3 which is where I was livingFwhich3 o%
course3 was part o% the proble&3 though I couldn=t see that$ I thought others3 who didn=t see& to
be li/e &e3 &ust have been pretending$ 2nd although I was pretending3 I couldn=t really see that
I was @doing= that3 or see the depth and e9tent o% it$ I thin/ I &ust have realised so&ething o% it to
thin/ others were pretending$ I didn=t have any sense o% authentic being$ I was cut+o%% %ro&
&ysel% and others3 living &ore in %antasy than in any healthy shared reality$ 2nd I don=t thin/
anyone around &e who &ight have cared actually noticed$ I used to play dead or hide and wait to
be %ound$ That was considered a hu&orous ga&e$ But the possible serious &essage in those
@ga&es= wasn=t noticed by anyone3 including &e$

!ob: Can you re&e&ber other @ga&es=J

"eon: ;hat occurs to &e Aust now is a photograph o% &e at the Broo/lyn Botanical
Gardens3 where I a& sitting ne9t to a cactus plant and pretending to be dying3 pain%ully3 o% thirst
in the desert$ I was3 indeed3 thirsty3 dying o% thirst %or co&ing alive in a non+autistic way3 %or
being in relationship3 %or being without a deep %ear o% living$ 2s an adult3 still struggling with
andEor repressing all that3 I thought how aw%ul it would be to die be%ore co&ing alive$ 2 wasted
li%e$ Laying waste a li%eti&e$ BellishH

!ob: Iou were tal/ing earlier about the BolocaustF

"eon: I thin/ hearing about the Bolocaust had a huge i&pact on &e as a child$ I wonder
i% it didn=t blow &y &ind in so&e way$ I was a &e&ber o% a group that /ept being persecuted$
2nd that event was3 and still is3 o% course3 so aw%ul3 appalling3 terri%ying3 inco&prehensible and
&ind+boggling$ I was raised with a strong sense o% @us= and @the&=$ 2nd that was what @they=
were doing to @us=$ Then within @us= there were divisions3 and so on$ ;ho could be trustedJ I was
born during the <epression3 and &y %ather lost everything3 including I thin/ his con%idence3
when people who owed hi& &oney de%aulted and he had to give up his phar&acy in Manhattan$

So all this is happening' the <epression3 a ;orld ;ar3 the Bolocaust$ 2nd when &y
&other went to wor/ soon a%ter &y birthFand she was luc/y to have wor/ to go toFI was le%t
with a succession o% wo&en3 al&ost none o% who& I have any good %eelings %or that I can
re&e&ber$ So there were also &any leavings3 and in so&e cases3 that &ight have been a relie%$
6ne wo&an scared the hell out o% &e by telling &e i% I didn=t shut up she=d put &e down with
the @bogey &an in the base&ent=$ 2nother was the wo&an who had a stro/e while she was with
&e3 and I have this i&age o% her lying on the %loor and not spea/ing but I=ve never3 to date3
recalled what I actually %elt about that$ I thin/ she was a good person3 or good to &e$ She died
within the ne9t wee/ or so$

I guess what I=& leaving i&plicit3 but ought to engage3 are &y relationship and ?ualities
o% relationship with &y parents3 particularly &y &other$ 2nd the &ost direct way into that is to
say3 with sadness %or both o% us3 that I can=t recall %eeling love %or or %ro& her3 a &atter3 o%ten
with one=s @&ater= or &ate3 at the heart o% the &atter o% what &atters and what=s the &atter when
we consider the &atter o% hu&an su%%ering$

Ronnie wrote o% love3 in The 3olitics of E&perience, as lettin" the Other be, #ith concern
and affection. I thin/ i&plicit in that is being responsible %or the 6ther3 letting the 6ther be in
such a way as to let the 6ther %ully be and beco&e who she or he is and can beco&e3 in their
o#n #ay and in their o#n ti!e, and %acilitating rather than sti%ling or constraining that through
overprotection3 abuse or neglect$ This 6ther that one could love is really other3 not another one
li/e &e3 or3 rather3 &ay be li/e &e in &any ways Obiologically3 culturallyP but also ?uite other3
sin"ularly other. I would say that love is letting that otherness be and thrive3 with care and
a%%ection3 and care %or the spiritual as well as the &aterial and e&otional well+being o% the loved
one$ 2nd by spiritual I don=t &ean adopting or %ollowing any dog&atic belie%s and practices o%
this or that religious tradition3 but being open to loving3 being open+hearted3 being %ree to be
co&passionate3 being able to respond in responsibility %or the 6ther and the others3 turning
toward rather than away %ro& the vulnerable3 responding with openness and /indness to the %ace
o% the 6ther rather than ignoring hi& or her3 or /ic/ing his or her %ace in3 or de%acing his or her
otherness by trying to own and control hi& or her$ It=s probably si&ple %or so&e3 perhaps %or
so&e o% those >esus called the beggars %or spirit3 or those who were poor3 or &odest3 rather than
arrogant in spirit3 who were blessed$ But it see&s that si&plicity is all too di%%icult %or &ost o% us
to arrive at or %ind ourselves in with others$ 2nd so it=s %airly unco&&on$

!ob: ;hy do you thin/ it=s unco&&onJ ;hat gets in the wayJ

"eon: 6ur attach!ents and aversions get in the way3 attach&ents that predo&inantly
bind rather than bond. 6r3 put another way3 let=s say we want this and we don=t want that3 and
usually aren=t aware o% being conditioned by these positive and negative nu&bers3 aren=t aware
that they &ay be li&iting our %reedo& and ability to see in a way undistorted by what we &ay be
driven byFgreed3 %ear3 anger3 Aealousy3 envy3 insecurity3 even having an idea o% what is good %or
so&eone else and not putting that3 or onesel% in ?uestion as one tries to control how they live so
as to set the& right3 %or the best reasons3 as one &ay see it$ ;ell3 that "ets in the #ay o%3 and isnt
the #ay o%3 love$ 2nd as to being able to love and let the 6ther be3 as other3 how can one love
e9cept to the e9tent that one is su%%iciently one=s own person3 with a sense o% one=s ownness and
ontological security3 secure in one=s own being3 and with a sense o% responsibility %or the 6ther
who is not &eJ 2nd to the e9tent that one is cau"ht in the confines o%3 or i&prisoned by3 sel%+
centeredness3 or by a relatively closed.off narcissis! with little opening out to others3 ho# can
one love1 2nd to the e9tent that one is i&&ersed in varieties o% &isery3 an9iety and other
varieties o% &ental3 e9istential3 e&otional and spiritual con%usion and distressC to the e9tent that
one is disconnected %ro& one=s own li%e %orce and possibilitiesC to the e9tent that one is cut+o%%
%ro& 6thers who could invite you and welco&e you into a world o% enAoy&ent as your own
person3 and then invite you or draw you out o% the con%ines o% sel%+centeredness and sel%+interest
Fto that e9tent3 unless one loses that sel%3 or unless that way o% being and relating is pro%oundly
transfor!ed, and one %inds onesel% in so&ething li/e divine grace3 how can one loveJ

That &ay sound li/e an ideal state but it=s not$ It=s +ust difficult, or &ay well be di%%icult3
to arrive at that si!plicity. It=s very si&ple once one has wor/ed through the i&&ense obstacles
in the way o% that way3 or3 as I said3 once one has been graced$ But while we can=t do anything to
bring on grace3 we probably can and need to be #holehearted in being open to it3 and have to be
very !indful o% who and how we are and are not3 to prepare for that openin" to love$

;ell3 hardly any o% that was in play %or &e as I was growing up$ I thin/ &y &other was
too distressed and in her head to let the 6ther be$ I don=t bla&e her$ I thin/ she probably did the
best she could$ That=s another whole story though$ But all o% what I=ve been saying is relevant to
your ?uestion about depression and suicide$

2nd as we &ove through this area3 %ro& starting with ourselves and &oving on to
e9perience with others3 in the conte9t o% a psychotherapy practice3 I thin/ we=ll %ind3 when it
co&es down to the essential and basic issues3 that the points or bases I=& touching on3 as I tell
you about &ysel%3 o%ten co&e up %or others caught in depressive and suicidal states o% &ind3 or
waysFli&ited waysFo% being3 or ways o% being that constrain the %lourishing o% that being in
the world with others$ 6r they co&e up %or the& once they begin to be able to attend to what=s
going on %or the&3 within their &inds and souls and between the&selves and others$ So shall I
continue with &y story3 as it relates to the ?uestion o% depression and suicideJ

!ob: Continue$

"eon: 2s a /id3 I had so&e notion o% God3 but it was a very li&ited and sel%ish notion$ I
used to as/ God=s help %or so&e &inor issue3 li/e helping &e to pass a test or e9a& at pri&ary
school$ I=d pro&ise to give so&e o% &y spending &oney to a charity i% Be=d help &e$ Then I=d
pass the test but not /eep &y part o% the deal$ I thin/ that was very corruptin" and destructiveF
to &a/e deals or3 at least thin/ I was &a/ing a deal3 and then not /eep &y part o% it3 not /eep &y
pro&ise$ I thought I could "et a#ay with it$ Later I ca&e to realise that rather than getting away
with so&ething3 #hat "ot a#ay %ro& &e was an opportunity to ta/e &y word seriously$ I
devalued the currency o% &y wordC I treated it as though it was without value or worth$ 2nd with
GodH Could I then trust &y word to anyone else3 or be trusted3 or indeed trust &y own word3 ta/e
any intentionFi% I could own oneFseriouslyJH Could I actually believe there was anyone else
@out= thereJ The e9istence o% anyone else was hard to believe in when I had such a tenuous sense
o% &y own e9istence$ @God= does not necessarily e&ist, in the sense o% being li&ited by the
?uality o% e9istenceEnon+e9istence$ But I was being stupid as well as dishonest in thin/ing that an
all+/nowing and all+power%ul God wouldn=t notice what I was up to$

:ind o% in parallel with being in bad %aith with GodFwith the various senses o% that ter&
as I=& using it hereFI would wonder about the relation o% the Creator to Bis creation$ But here
again what could have been a path or way out o% &isery and isolation3 and toward so&ething or
so&eone beyond narrow sel%+interests3 beyond hiding and pretending3 what could have been
good %aith Oand not necessarily any deter&ined %aith in this or that group=s understanding or
belie%P got bloc/ed$ 6r3 rather3 I bloc/ed it$ 6r3 &ore precisely3 I tal/ed &ysel% into believing that
God had put a bloc/ in &y &ind$ It happened when I was around ten or eleven years old3 &aybe
as old as twelve$ I was on a bus3 trying to thin/ what ca&e be%ore the creation o% the world3 or
what ca&e be%ore GodC in other words puGGling about in%inity3 trying to &a/e it into so&e /ind
o% /nowable entity I could grasp$ I %inally ca&e up with this idea that God had put a bloc/ in our
&inds so that we were unable to thin/ that one through$ Bere I thought we were all in the sa&e
boat3 though I don=t recall spea/ing o% this with anyone else$ 2nd i% we persisted in trying to
thin/ it3 we=d go craGy3 whatever I thought that &eantFbut it wasn=t good newsH 2nd to a
considerable degree I thin/ I stopped trying to thin/ andEor stopped thin/ing3 or stopped &ysel%
%ro& thin/ing3 about anything really %unda&ental3 or deep3 or essential$ I wondered in later years
whether it was part o% a repression3 or in the service o% a repression3 o% se9ual desire and activity$
I had %ar &ore repression than %eeling or activity %or a long ti&e3 without a doubt$ I %elt3 in later
years when I recalled that3 asha&ed and very regret%ul that I didn=t stay with &y ?uestion$ I
associated it with restricting any serious thought %or several decades$ I told Ronnie o% this once
and he had a ta/e on it that hadn=t occurred to &e$ Be said that I &ight well have see&ed craGy
to others around &e at the ti&e i% I had stayed with that ?uestion$ 2nd that &ight well have led
&e to Broo/lyn State Bospital and to receiving ECT to relieve &e o% &y psychosis in the guise
o% philosophical or &etaphysical ?uestioning$ That &ade &e %eel a little bit better about the
&atter$ Maybe so&eone3 or no+one3 up there was watching over &e3 or so&e survival instinct
told &e to lay low until I=d be on a level playing %ield$

!ob: Bow did you &ove %ro& copping out o% being a &etaphysician to being a
physicianJ

"eon: ;hen I was thirteen I got &y ar& rather badly bro/en in a schoolyard brawl$ I was
sent ho&e on &y own$ 6n &y way I &et the %ather o% one o% the other /ids in the schoolFa
doctor$ Be told &e the ar& was bro/en and to get ho&e as soon as possible$ I don=t /now why
the teacher or he didn=t thin/ to have so&eone drive &e ho&e or to an e&ergency roo&3 but I
had to &a/e &y way by bus$ ;hen I heard that &y ar& was @bro/en=3 I thought that I=d have to
go through the rest o% &y li%e with one ar& that didn=t wor/$ I tried not to thin/ about it$ Iou see3
I didn=t have any sense o%3 or notion o%3 or trust in anything li/e healin". Bro/en was bro/en$ I
rec/on I %elt bro/en$ 2nd I had no basis %or thin/ing bro/en could be %i9ed3 or &ade better3 or
healed$ 2nd that a doctor was able to assist a natural healin" process, and help to give &e bac/
the ar& I thought was gone3 this was a &aAor %actor in &y wanting to beco&e a doctor$ I wanted
to parta/e in that &agic and #onder of healin". There was so&e good news in that bad news$
Darado9ically3 I got so&ething o% a luc/y or a "ood breakout o% it$ 2nd as it didn=t heal
co&pletely well and caused proble&s with &ove&entFso&e o% which still O%i%ty years laterP
re&ain andEor recurFit &otivated &e to attend to what=s going on in or with &y body3 though
not %or &any years to co&e$ That was another boon in the bust$
I was %ortunate on leaving pri&ary schoolFwhere &y &other was a teacher Oand I=d had
her twice3 which was unhelp%ulPFto go to a high school where I got into an e9peri&ental %irst
year which lin/ed learning to one=s own e9perience and observations3 and where one stayed with
the sa&e teacher and group &ost o% the day3 rather than changing teachers and groups every
%orty+%ive &inutes$ That helped turn &e around %ro& being a poor student and acade&ic
per%or&er to beco&ing a pretty good one$ But even there I got li&ited bene%it %ro& the
advantages o% that @E9perience Curriculu&= as I was not yet able to own &y own e9perience or
really respect that o% others$ I %elt a bit li/e an alien$ Though I didn=t have the language or
concepts %or it3 I really was ?uite alienated %ro& &ysel% and anybody else$ 2nd %ew people
see!ed to notice or respond to &e as such$ I was spaced+out3 distracted and deeply an&ious,
living &ore in fantasy than in any shared world with others or in &y body$ 2nd so little o% what I
learned was e&bodied$ But there was so!e hope there$

2t university3 which was &y %irst ti&e living away %ro& ho&e e9cept %or ti&es at
su&&er ca&ps3 I got into the really bad practice o% ta/ing a&pheta&ines to stay up and cra&
be%ore e9a&s and then3 when &y sleep patterns were ?uite disrupted3 ta/ing barbiturates to get to
sleep$ They weren=t prescribed but I had no di%%iculty getting the&$ ;hen I got to &edical school
this continued3 but now got so&e legiti&ation when3 in crisis or anyhow in a &ess and at &y
&other=s suggestion3 I visited &y %a&ily GD3 the guy who had attended &y birth and who we all
had great respect %or and %aith in$ 4p to that point I /ind o% assu&ed he had a depth o%
understanding o% li%e$ To set the conte9t3 I was in &y %irst ter&3 studying gross anato&y3
histology3 neuro+anato&y and genetics and e&bryology$ 2nd I was distracted and in tur&oil over
the &atter o% relationships with wo&en$ The possibility o% inti&acy and yet its i&possibility3 %or
&e3 was &a/ing &e &ore an9ious3 depressed and distracted$ The actual situation was &y
beginning to get close to a girl in town$ I was bac/ in New Ior/ by now3 but also still %eeling a
lot %or a girl I had been getting close to bac/ at university in the &id+westFprobably the %irst girl
and %or so&e years the only girl to love &e$ The girls weren=t without their own proble&s3 but I
was &a/ing the relationships &ore co&plicated and di%%icult than they needed to be$ My
relationship with &y !other got brought into the %ra&e here too3 in ways that would get
increasingly disturbing %or both o% us$ She was always a third present when I was with a wo&an$
It wasn=t her way to encourage &e to %ind &y own way in these &atters$ I don=t thin/ she=d been
encouraged to %ind her own way either$ I %elt her to be ?uite intrusive. She see&ed to get really
hurt3 troubled and upset at the thought o% &y having a relationship with so&eone not in her world
as it were3 with so&eone %ro& a di%%erent enough bac/ground as to &a/e the& alien and
threatening to her3 as well as to so&e di%%use %a&ily @we=$ 2nd along with that she see&ed to
have great di%%iculty with &y e&bar/ing on se9ual relationships$ 2nd that di%%iculty o% hers was
getting in the way o% &y relationships in a big way$ I was Aust beginning to understand that$
Maybe I had the right to get on with relationships without her inter%erence3 via varieties o%
e&otional blac/&ail3 and &aybe I didn=t need to %eel guilty about it$ Those thoughts were
beginning to %or& and sur%ace3 but they were getting a hard ti&e %ro& &y internalised @&other=
and the result was I %elt a right &ess$ I couldn=t study or sleep3 couldn=t decide or act3 and
couldn=t enAoy anything &uch or rela9$ There=s a sense in which all that had always been
proble&atic3 but it had never been so intensely %elt$ I was getting e9hausted3 wondered i% I was
heading %or Oi% indeed I hadn=t yet arrived at havingP a brea/down3 and thought to drop out o%
&edical school$ 2nyhow3 when I went to see the %a&ily doctor3 he see&ed to listen to what I had
to say3 then opened a drawer in his des/3 too/ out so&e drug co&pany %ree sa&ples o% Miltown
Fa &inor @tran?uilliser= and a barbiturateF/ind o% shoved the& across his des/ at &e3 as/ed &e
i% I /new what they were and told &e to ta/e the& as directed$ OI did3 %or a %ew days$ I stopped
ta/ing the
Miltown as I %elt worse %or it3 but got &ysel% into ta/ing barbiturates &ore regularly than
ever$P There was no suggestion %ro& hi& that perhaps I needed to consider how I was living &y
li%e3 possibly with the help o% another$ Maybe he was e9hausted and &ight have acted di%%erently
on another occasion$ Bis wi%e had been diagnosed as having a brain cancer around that ti&e$ Be
had a daughter in &edical school and &aybe3 with good intentions3 he was into propping up the
troops and sending the& bac/ into battle$ But as I loo/ed bac/ on that later3 it was at best bad
practiceFthough it was and still is co&&onFand at worst a betrayal o% the trust I=d had %or hi&$
I so&ehow /new that wasn=t what was called %or3 though I didn=t yet /now what was$

!ob: Iou thought to drop out o% &edical schoolJ

"eon: Ies$ ;e had our %inal e9a&inations scheduled %or early >anuary on our return %ro&
the Christ&as holidays$ >ust be%ore the brea/ I &ade an appoint&ent to see the Chair&an o% the
2nato&y <epart&ent3 <r Ernst Scharrer3 an elderly Ger&an who3 with his wi%e Berta3 was
responsible %or the %irst se&ester studies$ I ca&e to see hi& ready to drop out o% &edical school
and told hi& so$ Be in?uired what was going on to bring &e to that point$ I told hi& I was unable
to ta/e in the &aterial$ QBaven=t you been attending the lecturesJR he as/ed$ Ies3 I had been$
Q<on=t you ta/e notes and read the&JR QIesR I replied3 Qand I read the te9ts tooR$ But3 I
e9plained3 I was not ta/ing in what I read$ I was retaining little$ I couldn=t concentrate$ <r
Sharrer said Q;ell3 you have two wee/s over the holidays to studyR$ I said I didn=t thin/ that
would3 or could3 &a/e any di%%erence$ I was sure I couldn=t pass the e9a&s$ Be said I should do
&y best and ta/e the e9a&s$ I% I %ailed any3 I could ta/e a &a/e+up e9a& at the end o% >anuary$ I
said I didn=t thin/ I=d pass that either$ To that he replied' Q;ell3 i% you don=t pass the &a/e+up
e9a&s3 I thin/ we=ll let you go on to Bioche&istry and Dhysiology Lthe courses %or the second
se&esterM$ I% you %ail those3 too3 you will have to leave$ But i% you pass those3 I thin/ we=ll pass
you on and say @;ell3 that Redler &aybe will never be a pro%essor o% anato&y3 but &aybe he=ll
be a pretty good doctor anyhow=$R Be was greatFdigni%ied3 concerned3 gentle and encouraging$
I put plans to ?uit on hold$ 2nd than/s to &y class&ate and new %riend3 >on 6strow3 who stayed
up with &e the night be%ore the %irst day o% the two+day e9a& period3 reviewing gross anato&y
and histology3 I &anaged a pass$ I had an easy ti&e with genetics and e&bryology as I=d studied
the& as a university undergraduate$ I handed in a blan/ paper %or neuroanato&y the ne9t day3
saying that I didn=t have a clue3 was e9hausted Oa%ter &ost o% another night upP and didn=t want to
write nonsense$ 2nd the net result3 a%ter a &a/e+up %or neuroanato&y3 was that I &anaged a pass
and was on the way to being a reasonably good student %ro& that point on$

The care o% <r Scharrer and &y %ellow student >on3 his wi%e Ellyn3 and the a%%ectionate
interest o% their dog Snea/ersFwho lic/ed &y %ace to /eep &e awa/e that %irst nightF/ept &e
on the path o% beco&ing a physician$ Derhaps I &ight better have pursued another vocation or
de%erred studying &edicine until I had e&erged %ro& &y peculiar way o% surviving and &oved
on to a &ore authentic and enlivened way o% being$ But I was and a& still &oved by the /indness
and generosity o% those people$ <r Scharrer3 I heard3 drowned so&e ti&e later be%ore I had a
chance to tell hi& how &uch our &eeting and his encourage&ent &eant to &e3 not only %or
/eeping &e on the course3 and %or his %aith in &e to be a pretty good doctor3 but %or his sense3
though he was an acade&ic3 o% the i&portance o% care and heart in the &a/ing o% a physician$
That=s not all that co&&on any &ore$ The 6strows have re&ained li%e+long good %riends3 and
>on taught &e &any good lessons on the s/ill and responsibility called %or in practising as a
physician$ Be recently retired %ro& %ull+ti&e practice as a pul&onary specialist$ I thin/ a %actor in
his early+ish retire&ent was the di%%iculty in practising as he saw %it3 given the de&ands3
econo&ics and bureaucracy o% third party pay&ents$
The doctor+patient relationship and the priority o% s/il%ul &eansF%ounded on wisdo&
and co&passion as well as /nowledgeFare largely things o% the past now3 even as aspirations in
the current real world$ They=ve been replaced not only by /nowledge+based advanced technology
and ever newer drugs3 but by see&ingly endless %illing out o% %or&s within an ethos o% service
based on business &anage&ent and econo&ics as the botto& line$ 2 practice o% aiding nature
andEor God in a healing process3 based on a relationship with your patient and an understanding
o% his or her li%e situation3 was once present as so&ething that ou"ht to be and arguably #as
possible to ai& %or in a practice o% &edicine and as a li%e practice$ 2ctually3 I thin/ we=ll see a
revival o% good &edical practice springing up li/e oases in a desert out o% the desire o% so&e
doctors and patients %or the art o% healing rather than a &edical industry$

2nyhow3 &y reliance on barbiturates to get to sleep and a&pheta&ines to Aolt &e into
so&ething re&otely analogous to a distorted wa/e%ulness continued$ So&eti&e in &y third year
>on3 the chest doctor3 called up the night be%ore a &aAor e9a& in internal &edicine$ I told hi&
that I was lying on the %loor and that I couldn=t get up$ I had ta/en &ore barbiturates than I
usually did3 trying to get to sleep be%ore this e9a&3 but I hadn=t been able to get to sleep3 nor
could I do anything else$ >on ca&e over and chec/ed that I was all right and &uttered so&ething
about &y sel%+=&edication= getting dangerous$ I can=t re&e&ber whether I too/ the test and
%lun/ed it3 or didn=t ta/e it3 or possibly even passed it3 but I went to see the &an who was
teaching the course and he sent &e to the student health service to get &e a re%erral %or
psychotherapy$ Even then I didn=t really have a sense that there was so&ething %unda&entally
wrong with the way I was living &y li%e3 with &y way o% being in the world$ Because it didn=t
sin/ in andEor it wasn=t ac/nowledged in &y bones in a way that percolated through the rest o%
&e$ I probably still had so&e /ind o% &echanical concept o% so&ething wrong that could be
%i9ed3 li/e &y bro/en bone had been %i9ed3 but still without an understanding o%3 or a basis %or
%aith in3 healing$ ;hen I %irst ca&e across Ronnie=s boo/s I only di&ly and at a distance began to
hear what he was on about$ There was de%initely so&ething that attracted &e and rang a bell3
especially as there was so&ething about Ronnie3 when I &et hi&3 that touched &e deeply3 and
%rightened &e as well$ But it was really only then that I began to realiseFagain the e&phasis is
on beginningFthat there was so&ething wrong with the way that I was living &y li%e$ 2nd I
could say &any o% the sa&e things that Steve was describing$ I was depressed3 an9ious and
uptight3 and not very open to others$ Relationships were very proble&atic$ It was aw%ul$ There
was very little enAoy&ent o% li%e3 a lot less than &any around &e see&ed to be having3 whether
they were psychiatrically diagnosable or not$ So&e people saw &e as being &ore open hearted
than I could recognise$ That &ight have been because I did have the tenacity to continue on a
path that had as &uch %ound &e and ta/en &e up as I had set out to %ollow it3 in trying to e&erge
%ro& that prison$ I still %ound it very di%%icult to concentrate3 so there were &any things I couldn=t
understand because I couldn=t stay with the&FI couldn=t dwell with things$ Because I was
cuto%% %ro& a very early age there was a whole lot o% li%e e9perience that I=d &issed out on$ 2nd
so I saw and related to other people in a peculiar way3 whether they were %riends3 %a&ily3 patients
in a hospital3 or people who& I began to see in therapy$ I had so&ehow passed &uster enough to
be a doctor and be seeing people under supervision in therapy$ I=d say now that that was @seeing
through a glass dar/ly=$ I=& re%erring to the passage in Daul=s 8irst Letter to the Church at
Corinth$ In BeinG Cassirer=s translation the passage is clearer as to the &eaning and to &y
&eaning here' Q2t present our sight o% things is one throu"h a !irror #hich thro#s the! into
be#ilderin" confusion, but there will be a ti&e when we shall see the& %ace to %aceR$ OI re%erred
to what was3 %or &e3 a &o&entous encounter with Laing and Cassirer in &y piece3 @Inspiration3
E9piration and the Buddhist
Connection=3 in 6.). Lain"4 8reative )estroyer, Cassell3 London #..(3 edited by BobP$

Mine was a strange way o% being$ It was &y persistence in wanting and wor/ing to &ove
through and beyond that3 with the help and so&eti&es e9asperation o% Ronnie3 wives3 daughters3
%riends3 patients3 residents in the D2 households3 several psychoanalysts and several Sen &asters3
that constituted &y best education as a psychotherapist with so&e understanding and
appreciation o% healing and co&ing into the world o% relatednessFand love$

!ob: Iou were a tough nut to crac/H ;hat happened when you got to LondonJ 2nd the
drug sceneJ

"eon: It was on co&ing to London that I really began to co&e to grips with3 or co&e to
%ace3 the depths o% &y cut+o%% an9iety and depression$ ;hile I was living at :ingsley Ball3
spending ti&e with Ronnie and beginning to wor/ with patients in therapy on a long+ter& basis
under supervision3 I started using drugs I=d had very little e9perience with be%ore$ I was s&o/ing
a lot o% &ariAuana and hashish$ 6ne day I got so&e e9cellent &ariAuana3 probably the best I=d
ever had3 %ro& a guy who was writing a boo/ on it at the ti&e$ I=d &et hi& through the Research
Co&&ittee on Cannabis3 which I was invited to Aoin$ The wo&an who was to beco&e &y %irst
wi%e was to visit &e within the ne9t couple o% days$ 2nd I spaced+out s&o/ing that grass3 and
&oved into a ?uite un%a&iliar space$ I %ound &ysel% wal/ing around in %igure+eights3 and the
wal/ing %elt &ore li/e %loating3 or wal/ing on clouds$ It was great3 in a way3 but I was also &ore
than a bit out o% it$ 2nd I was decidedly not owning up to &y con%licted %eelings %or LiG or her
less con%licted desire to be with &e and low tolerance %or &y a&bivalence and indecision vis+t+
vis her$ That led to the beginning o% what was3 in &any ways3 an ill+%ated &arriage$ ;ithin
several years we each had had so&e pretty rough ti&es3 individually and Aointly Ono pun
intendedP$ LiG had been a psychiatric nurse$ She told &e her parents wouldn=t support her going
to university and as she %igured she could well end up in a &ental hospital3 she thought she &ight
as well hold a /ey$ ;hen I &et her in New Ior/3 about seven &onths be%ore leaving %or the 4:3
she=d told &e o% a recent serious suicide atte&pt$ She went into a very strange3 &ad space on one
o% our %irst dates in New Ior/ when I was whistling a tune %ro& a %il& we=d Aust seen3 having
enAoyed the %il& and being happy to be with her$ She later e9plained that her &other would
whistle when she was angry at herFLiGFwhile denying that she was angry$ Several years later I
witnessed precisely what she had described$ It was aw%ulH Ber &other3 angry at LiG but not
ac/nowledging it3 sat with her bac/ to LiG and whistled in a God+aw%ul3 o%%+/ey way that even
&ade &e %eel really weird$ I ad&ired LiG=s in+touchness with her own depression and despair3
also her courage and passion which at %irst obscured her %ear and %ragility$ She see&ed to &e to
be authentic and genuine in a way I was not$ I very &uch regret that we were both too wounded
to be able to help each other &uch3 though I thin/ we each tried our best as well as sorely tried
the other$ I was &ore resilient than she was and probably &ore drawn and co&&itted to loo/
within as well as to as/ %or help$ She had several brea/downs$ ;hen she was %eeling suicidal3
what /ept her going3 besides her anger and cigarettes Oboth o% which she said she neededP3 was to
be there3 as best she could3 %or our daughters$ 2nd she was o%ten able to call on her inti&ate
understanding o% &adness3 depression and suicidal %eelings to connect very directly with others
in severe distress$ Gradually3 her @&adness= evolved into longstanding depression3 so&eti&es
?uite suicidal3 but also o%ten with a deter&ination to tough it out in her own way3 which usually
&eant without having to ac/nowledge any dependence on another$ It was LiG=s depression and
suicidal %eelings that I should have been able to understand best3 and i% I had understood the&
better3 and loved her better3 perhaps her li%e would have had a better course$ But I was both too
close to her and yet not su%%iciently inti&ate to help$ 2nd3 though I thin/ we each went a long
way towards %orgiving one another3 we were long too angry andEor disappointed with one
another to co+operate in helping one another$ She died several years ago %ro& a co&bination o%
neurological3 gastro+intestinal and perhaps auto+i&&une illnesses that were never precisely
diagnosed3 despite &any &onths in the &edical wards o% a London teaching hospital$

I began ta/ing LS< in London too$ I had already ta/en so&e be%ore I le%t the States and
while I was in Scotland be%ore co&ing to London3 but I began ta/ing it &ore o%ten3 and o%ten
having what were called @bad trips=Fhard ti&es3 so&eti&es terri%ying ti&es$ ;ell3 here &aybe I
did have a bit o% courage even i% it was %oolish3 because I /ept on ta/ing the acid3 not %or
enAoy&ent3 because the e9perience was %re?uently rough3 but to pushFto push against
so&ething$ I had so&e %aith in the drug as actually %acilitating &y getting in touch with aspects
o% who and how I was that I wasn=t ac/nowledging$ There were a nu&ber o% ti&es when3 on an
LS< trip3 I couldn=t %ace the &any contradictions o% &y li%e$ 2nd %ollowing one o% those
occasions3 I was out o% co&&ission %or a nu&ber o% &onths3 and %elt suicidal$ It was the %irst
ti&e I had %elt seriously suicidal$ ;hyJ

;ell what I related it to was that I %elt &y li%e had been such a sha&3 so %alse in so&e
ways3 and without any %elt %oundationFno ground that I thought ought to be there but see&ed
never to have been there$ There was nothing and nobody that I could trust$ 2nd I %elt absolutely
helpless3 and was getting &ore soFdependent and @regressing=Fyet with no+one I %elt I could
allow &ysel% to depend on$ It was overwhel&ing and scary$ I too/ to &y bed3 or rather I too/ to a
sleeping bag on the %loor$ I was &arried by this ti&e3 and besides %eeling asha&ed at %eeling
helpless and behaving accordingly3 I was a%raid I would3 or could3 lose control o% &y sphincters
and piss or even shit in bed$ I had /ind o% regressed$ I needed to be alone and ?uiet in a way that
was new %or &e$ There was a cocoon+li/e e9perience o% being alone in a roo& in a sleeping+bag
on the %loor3 in a corner$ 2%ter a while I slept with a very sharp /itchen /ni%e under &y pillow$ I
thought I would /ill &ysel% rather than beco&e catatonic$ I sensed and %eared that I was going
catatonic$ I %elt I was beco&ing @scared sti%%=3 which is one way o% thin/ing o% catatonia3 and3
though I was Aust tuning into it then3 this was an e9pression o% &y e9istential conditionFunable
to &ove3 stuc/3 not able to %ace the conse?uences o% any real &ove I &ight &a/e$ The point was
I didn=t %eel as though I had &ade any real &oves that were authentically &ine3 that I %elt ca&e
%ro& so&e @&e= that I could own up to and respect as a separate agency in the world$ 2nd I
thought3 on the one hand3 that i% I went catatonic3 despite whatever di%%iculty I was having with
&y wi%e3 she wouldn=t try to ship &e o%% to a hospital$ I /new Ronnie well by this ti&e3 and I was
pretty sure that this wasn=t anything he would be on the side o%3 you /now$ But on the other hand3
I thought I was so bad3 so screwed+up3 so hopeless3 a hopeless case3 that nothing would help and
eventually people would get %ed+up with &e3 and send &e to a hospital %or electric shoc/$ 2nd at
that ti&e I thought I=d rather /ill &ysel% than go through that scenario3 because that see&ed the
worst$ It see&ed worse than death$ I can=t re&e&ber why I thought that3 or in what way it was3
but I did thin/ that at the ti&e$ Dossibly I saw that as a dead end and thought I=d be better o%%
%inishing &ysel% o%% than being done in and hu&iliated by others$ I %elt helpless and hopelessF
i&potent you &ight say$ Se9ually3 yes3 there was no se9ual desire3 but even i% I wasn=t se9ually
i&potent3 I %elt e9istentially i&potent$ I couldn=t see anything good about &ysel%$ 6ther people
could3 but I couldn=t understand why$ I thought I &ust be still %ooling the&$ 2nd why would they
be ta/en in by thatJ I didn=t devalue the&3 oddly enough3 %or being ta/en in by &e3 i% that=s what
I thought was happening$ But I %elt hopeless3 or near enough to hopeless3 that I could ever
change3 that &y li%e could ever get any better3 I couldn=t see how it could$ Iears later3 I would
loo/ bac/ on that and consider3 when other people %elt hopeless3 how hopelessness is a very
interesting %eeling3 because it see&s absolutely per&anent and true' you are hopelessC there is no
hope$ But3 in %act3 it=s a %eeling li/e any other %eeling3 and it=s transient3 it=s not per&anent$
There=s no %eeling that=s per&anent3 and there=s no basis %or %eeling that any %eeling isC but at the
ti&e3 the %eeling o% hopelessness grips you and see&s to be the truth o% the situation$

Ste#e: The point is that it %eels as i% it is per&anent$

"eon: That=s right$ There were ti&es during that episode when I thought o% throwing
&ysel% o%% the roo%$ I was living in a top %loor %lat with access to a %lat roo%$ I could wal/ out on
the roo%3 and loo/ down below3 and sort o% Aust considerFI can=t now really say how close I was
to doing it$ I certainly considered it$ 2nd one o% the %actors that stopped &e was thin/ing it
wouldn=t be %air to the others3 whoever would have to pic/ up the pieces3 clean up the &ess$ I
thin/ the actual physical &ess there would be was a &ore i&&ediate deterrent than considering
how others would have to deal with the terrible3 devastating3 conse?uences o% a suicide$ 2nyhow3
than/%ully3 I stepped bac/ %ro& the edge$

I %elt suicidal again3 along with an9ious and depressed %eelings3 round the ti&e o% the
brea/+up o% &y very short second &arriage3 shorter than &any a%%airs3 when I got into this
hopeless3 helpless spaceFanother level o% %eeling there was so&ething still terribly wrong with
the way I was living &y li%e$ I thought I should really ta/e a long leave3 you /now3 give up wor/
with others %or a ti&e3 do whatever I had to do3 that I could do3 to &a/e sure &y daughters were
as well ta/en care o% as possible %or a while3 and go o%% to a &onastery3 or place where I could do
an e9tended retreat3 and &editate$ That probably would have been the right thing to do3 but I
didn=t$ I lac/ed the intelligence3 courage3 conviction andEor resolve to do it$ The best reason %or
not going was not to leave &y /ids3 yet at so&e level I /new3 or should have /nown3 that in the
long run that could have been the best actionFand non+actionFI could ta/e %or their bene%it as
well as %or &ysel% and &y patients$

2 turning point at that ti&e involved a brie% encounter with a wo&an and a drug$ I had
&et this wo&an3 and was tal/ing to her in the pub one day3 and she ca&e bac/ to &y %lat with
&e$ So&e ti&e be%ore that3 a physician %riend o% &ine had given &e two tablets o% @ecstasy=3
though it went under another na&e then$ It was3 he said3 pure and unconta&inated with anything
other than the active ingredient$ I had heard that so&e psychiatrists in the 4S2 had thought the
drug &ight have so&e bene%it in treating depression3 whether or not that was related to its
@recreational= value3 but weren=t per&itted to do research on the drug once it was &ade illegal$ I
wasn=t /een on ta/ing drugs at that ti&e3 especially one I was un%a&iliar with$ Now this wo&an
was /ind o% weird and wonder%ul in so&e ways$ I had placed the two tabs in a little container on
a high shel%3 to get the& out o% reach o% /ids$ She loo/ed in this little container3 as/ed what these
tabs were and as I started to tell her3 she popped one o% the& in her &outh$ So there went one o%
these tablets3 and I thought well3 what the hellH I too/ the other one and spent a very rela&in",
interesting and en+oyable evening and night with this wo&an3 playing3 drawing3 and having se9
as well$ 2nd the %depression see!ed to +ust lift. 2nd it really did$ I was %out and re&ained @out=
o% &any &onths o% real distress3 &isery and depressive preoccupation$ It was &ore than
sy&pto&atic relie%$ It was as though a new #orld of possibility be"an to open, a %resher space
than I=d /nown$ I=& not advocating that drug or that way o% approaching distress3 but do
advocate an unpre+udiced openness and thou"htfulness as to #hat !ay be helpful to so!e people
in so!e conte&ts. 2s it happens3 the tablet that had been given to &e3 along with the uninhibited3
friendly presence of another person3 constituted or occasioned a %ast3 one.shot re!edy %or a very
distressed state o% heart and &ind3 and it was great %or &e at that ti&eH

I &entioned &editation3 and I re&e&ber earlier I said there was nothing I could trustFI
had no groundFbut a%ter that %irst brea/down3 which was in the si9ties3 I got involved in Sen
practice3 and then I ca&e across so&ething I could trust3 %or the %irst ti&e$ This practice o%
&editation3 Sen practice3 or >a.?en, +ust sittin". It began to give &e so&ething I could take !y
bearin"s by. But it was to ta/e &e a long ti&e to be able to integrate the practice into &y li%e so
that I could deal with &y own proble&s &ore e%%ectively and swi%tly$

!ob: 2nd you=re here to tell the taleH Steve3 were you ever as out o% it as LeonJ

Ste#e: 8or &e alienation was a /ey phrase$ I had read The 'tran"er and then NietGsche=s
>arathustra when I was in high+school3 and I identi%ied with the absurd heroC that was e9actly
where I thought I was at$

!ob: Ca&us= The Outsider1

Ste#e: The Outsider. 2lienated3 absolutely alienated %ro& every possible possibility$ I
couldn=t be with the bright /ids because their only ai& was to get into Ivy League colleges3 and it
see&ed to &e to be hollow and crass T and %or whatJ They were &erely success+oriented$ 2nd
then there were the people who were the cri&inals and wide+boys3 but there was obviously a way
that they were no+hopers$ Everyone growing up there wants to get out o% Broo/lyn3 and there are
three routes' as an intellectual3 a business person or a croo/$ Most everyone %ro& Broo/lyn is a
bit o% all three$

"eon: ;ell3 I thin/ you have at least one up on &e in that respect3 because at least you
sort o% %elt that you could recognise your predica&ent in what NietGsche and Ca&us were
spea/ing3 so you had %riends$

Ste#e: Ieah$

"eon: Iou had NietGsche and Ca&us as %riends3 as guides$

Ste#e: Ies3 but I &isread the&$ I thought they advocated a nihilistic way but in %act they
were pointing out that this was the condition we=re su%%ering %ro& and %ro& which we have to
escape by a%%ir&ation rather than negativity$

!ob: 6ur society is totally structured against &a/ing it easy %or us to tal/3 isn=t itJ ;e
Aust don=t do it3 do weJ

"eon: 9eve not had any di%%icultyH 2nd in so&e other places people do &ore than we do
here$

Ste#e: More in New Ior/$ Deople chi&e in when you=re tal/ing about so&ethingF
they=ll tell you what you want to do3 and where you want to go3 and how you can do it$ But that=s
unusual$ This is really a reactive3 or really a resent%ul way o% being$ Now people are always
reacting$ They=re not acting3 they=re doing what they thin/ they ought to be doing$ They give a
public presentation o% sel% in order to be seen as socially acceptable$ It=s so arti%icial3 and it=s so
e&ptying3 and it=s so horrendous3 that i% you=re at all hu&an3 you=re repelled3 aesthetically3
ethically and every other way$ So this sense o% total not belonging is very3 very di%%icult$ 6ne o%
the things that Ronnie was good at was opening up a space %or people who %eel that they didn=t
belong3 or didn=t want to belong to a turned+o%%3 socially reactive3 resent%ul scene called @sanity=$
Deople &isunderstood his &essage3 saying that he celebrated &adness$ But they didn=t really
understand that what he was tal/ing about was that so+called nor&alcy was &adness$

!ob: Sure3 &ad to be nor&al3 and nor&al to be &ad$

Ste#e: ;hat was passing as nor&al$

!ob: Iour views on suicideF

"eon: 6:3 I tal/ed about personal e9periences o% suicidal %eelings but not yet about
those people I &eet in &y practice who are or have been suicidal3 nor o% what &y attitude &ay be
in any instance o% this$

Ste#e: 6ne ele&ent that o%ten isn=t brought out about it3 because this isn=t easy to say3
because it al&ost sounds a little degrading3 and dishonouring the suicide3 is that there is o%ten
hostility in suicide$ It can be a spite%ul and resent%ul act$ It can be a way o% saying you=ll be sorry
%or how you=ve treated &e$

!ob: ;hich can o%ten be understandable$

Ste#e: But I don=t honour it$ In other words3 I care3 and it=s a reAection$ 2lso as Blanchot
argues3 we don=t really /now in suicide that we actually are ending it$ It=s a way that we thin/
that we can &aster death3 control death3 and o% course death &ight actually not be the end o%
possibility3 it &ay open us to another real&$

!ob: Many ti&es in &y li%e I have %elt so alone3 genuinely alone$

"eon: Dain%ully aloneJ

!ob: Dain%ully alone$ Because it was absolutely apparent to &e that I was totally alone3
suicide did not see& a dishonourable activity$ It didn=t see& to &e dishonourable at all$ I Aust
thought essentially even i% people do say they care3 they o%ten don=tF

"eon: I=& sorry I was only three+?uarters listening$ I got distracted$
Iou say that people say they care %or you3 while they &ay not$ Ies3 but they &ay$ Let=s
say that you were suddenly to %eel that this a%ternoon$ Iou &ight not %eel that you &attered to us3
or to Tracy3 or so&e other %riends3 but &aybe you would be wrong$ Iou &ight be deluded3 you
&ight be out o% touch3 you &ight be into so&e sort o% a peculiar space where your ta/e on li%e is
distorted or perverse$ Iou &ight be out o% touch and out o% relation3 but that doesn=t &ean that
other people are out o% relation to you$ 2nd you &ight &a/e &e %eel really terrible$

!ob: But surely that=s counterbalanced by the pain the individual %eelsH I &ean you
would never thin/ twice i% a guy who had a tu&our in the liver /illed hi&sel%Fyou=d be totally
sy&pathetic i% he pulled the plug on his li%e$

"eon: 2 couple o% years ago I had tal/s with &y %riend in Norway3 29el >ensen3 the guy
with &otor+neuron disease$ 29el as/ed &e i% I would be willing to help hi& /ill hi&sel%Fhelp
hi& to dieFi% he ca&e to really want that3 because3 being unable to &ove3 he was unable to do it
hi&sel%$ Now I could per%ectly well see why he &ight reach that point and &y answer was that I
would3 i% I could be sure that I wouldn=t get done %or &urder or &anslaughter %or it3 because I
thought that=s %air enough$ I was sure that he would only do that i% there was Aust no point any
&oreC there was Aust pain3 and no reason to go on3 %or hi&sel% or others3 as %ar as he or the others
could see and %eel$
Now i% you3 as a %riend3 told &e how that was %or you3 I &ight agree with youC I &ight
agree that there is no way out o% it %or you3 there was Aust pain ahead$ But I &ight not$ I would
hope that you would try to tal/ about that with people3 be%ore you did it$ Because3 as I said
be%ore3 one o% the %eatures o% there being no hope is that it=s a transient %eeling3 though it see&s
to have per&anence$ 2nd depending on what hope3 or lac/ o% hope3 or certainty that there is no
hope3 is being re%erred to3 the hopelessness &ay or &ay not be called %or$ Consider 29el=s case$
29el is a guy I have great a%%ection3 respect and ad&iration %or$ Be is a writerFa brilliant
one$ Be can hardly &ove any part o% his body below the nec/$ Be can still tal/3 and so
co&&unicate3 with di%%iculty3 but so&eti&es he can=t tal/$ Be=s on a respirator3 connected
through a tracheoto&y tube$ Be=s been getting progressively worse %or %ive years now$ 2nd
during this ti&e he=s dictated boo/s3 he=s &ade a couple o% radio series3 he=s had press
con%erences$ Be repri&anded the Dri&e Minister o% Norway %or not brea/ing relations with Iran
a%ter Sal&an Rushdie=s Norwegian publisher was shot$ 2 couple o% wee/s ago he got a W#"3"""
award in Norway %or helping secure asylu& %or writers who are politically persecuted in di%%erent
places$ 8ro& his bed3 lying on his bac/3 virtually unable to do anything %or hi&sel%3 he is &ore
creative and productive than &ost people who are per%ectly healthy$ Be doesn=t dwell on what he
can=t do or on the approaching end$ Bis spirit is an inspiration to allC his spirit is burning with
light and war&th %or the rest o% us$

Ste#e: I want to ta/e it %ro& a di%%erent approach$ I thin/ it is di%%erent i% the body=s
closing down$ Then pulling out o% gratuitous pain %ro& which there is nothing %urther to be learnt
&a/es sense$ But when we decide that it=s hopeless3 that we=re alone3 this is a &ental delusion3
this is a &ind trap3 because really we=re always with other people3 albeit at ti&es in a privative
&ode$ ;e are our relations with other people$ It=s that we choose then to be indi%%erent to other
people3 and to our responsibility %or the&3 when we get caught in a solipsistic prison3 that
ulti&ately this /ind o% closure gets %inalised by a literal suicide$

!ob: I thin/ that your attitude is hard on the person who is co&&itting suicide$

Ste#e: 6nly because it=s so%t$ It=s hard because it=s so%t$ I=& not indi%%erent to others3 so I
%eel the others= loss as a di&inution$

!ob: I want to pursue this$ I re&e&ber when I was so low3 I rang people up who were too
busy to &eet &e3 rightJ But i% I=d /illed &ysel%3 they would have been the sa&e people who said
they were &y %riends$

"eon: 2nd they=d co&e to the %uneralJ

!ob: 2nd they=d co&e to the %uneral$ I thin/ you=re overesti&ating your good+will$ Iou
cannot be available to everybody at all ti&es$

Ste#e: Buber never %orgave hi&sel% %or not listening to a guy trying to tell hi& his story$
Be turned away and the guy wal/ed out o% the bus and /illed hi&sel%$ Bow do you /now the
&o&ent when being unavailable &ight be &urderousJ

"eon: 2t every &o&ent we &ight be involved in /illing3 by turning away %ro& so&eone$
Now it=s also true3 as you say3 that I can=t turn towards everyone at the sa&e ti&e3 and in the
sa&e way3 with the sa&e energy3 and with the sa&e co&&it&ent$ But I can3 to a considerable
degree3 aspire to live &y li%e and to so&e degree realise that aspiration and practice o% not killin"
other people$ I can do &y best to re%rain %ro& /illing others by listenin" to the&3 by hearin"
the&3 by respondin" to the&$ Because every ti&e I don=t listen or don=t hear or don=t respond3 or
don=t ta/e any responsibility %or the 6ther3 I=& i&plicated in at least the ris/ o% doing violence to
the 6ther$ 2nd that violence3 that indi%%erence3 perhaps as &uch as hate %or the 6ther3 and &aybe
&ore than hate3 can contribute to people %eeling @what the hell3 why go onJ=

Ste#e: I Aust %eel that I have been given an obligation to others prior to &y understanding$
Suicide is an intention which overrides a prior obligation$

!ob: ;hat /ind o% obligationJ

Ste#e: The prior obligation is to each other person$ ;e are given an obligation to every
other person$ This is what it &eans to be hu&an$ The hu&an is hisEher obligation to the other
hu&ans3 to the inter+hu&an$

"eon: Bob=s as/ing who saysJ ;here are you getting this %ro&J

Ste#e: I=& saying this is what &a/es the hu&an hu&an$ Iou &ight say it=s %aith$ The
hu&an is inter+hu&an through language$ ;e are obliged to each other as hu&an through shared
language and worldFI can=t e9plain it because it=s not /nowledge3 it=s not a principle$ It=s not
logic$ Iou can=t draw this conclusion %ro& a pre&ise$

"eon: ;hat=s the relationship o% calling that @hu&an= to what=s called @hu&anis&=J

Ste#e: ;ell it=s very di%%erent$ Bu&anis& has to do with sel%' sel%+%ul%il&ent3 sel%+
actualisation3 &an realising hi&sel% in ter&s o% his own e9cellence3 which is sel%+centred$ 2s
opposed to this 2ristotelian notion o% good as e9cellence I would say with Levinas that the good
&eans that we=re obliged through responsibility to honour the 6ther=s di%%erence$ This see&s to
go against evolution and natural selection and survival o% the %ittest and sel%+realisation Iet
putting the 6ther %irst &ight be our ne9t evolutionary i&perative$ The hu&an is not ani&al$
Language has us3 and it spea/s through us$ Spea/ing is a spea/ing with$ The %abric o% what we
do as hu&ans is spea/ing with one another3 and in spea/ing obligation co&es throughFthe
obligation to listen$ Now I &ay do that i&per%ectly or inade?uately3 or I &ay &a/e a co&plete
balls+up o% it altogether3 and that=s Aust an inade?uate way o% doing itC it doesn=t change the %act
that to be hu&an has to do with spea/ing+listening beyond nature$

!ob: BuberFyou easily co&e to ter&s with the %act that he turns his bac/ on the guy3
and the guy goes under the bus$ Isn=t that the whole point3 that we %ail so &iserably and totally as
hu&an beings3 which is why we should be even &ore sy&pathetic to the suicide$ Because people
turn bac/s on us all the ti&e3 and they renege on their so+called obligations$

Ste#e: But /illing onesel% is the ulti&ate e9tre&e o% turning one=s bac/$

"eon: But &aybe not$

Ste#e: Even though it=s a response to so&eone else=s turning their bac/ on the&$

"eon: Maybe not though$ Maybe it isn=t the %inal turning one=s bac/$ It &ay so&eti&es
be a wa/e+up call$ ;hat about the Buddhist &on/s who were i&&olating the&selves in vietna&
during the warJ They Aust /ept doing it to call attention to the horror o% the war$ I=& not saying
they should have done it3 or that was good3 but they weren=t turning their bac/s$

Ste#e: But that=s a very3 very special case o% a %ul%il&ent o% an obligation3 which is a non+
suicidal suicide i% we want to tal/ about it3 and it=s a political ulti&ate sacri%ice %or the good$ I
thin/ it=s a very di%%erent thing actually$

"eon: 6:$ >ust a couple o% notes to record be%ore we shut the tape o%%$ In ter&s o% the
obligation and the pledge3 the pledge is ety&ologically lin/ed to responsibility$

Ste#e: 'ponde &eans a pledge$

"eon: 2 pro&ise$ So there=s the pledge o% a pro&ise in responsibility$ 2lso in ter&s o%
responsibility %or the 6ther3 going to that which you=re saying is the essence o% being hu&anF

Ste#e: ;e can=t call it essence$

"eon: Then that care %or the 6ther3 responsibility %or the 6ther3 in co&ing %irst3 goes
beyond survival o% the %ittest3 and yet today it really does see& as though we have to begin to be
responsible %or the 6ther and %or the 6thers3 not only hu&ans3 but other species3 i% any o% us are
going to survive$

Ste#e: It could parado9ically be another stage o% evolution$

"eon: Darado9ically we &ight have to learn responsibility in order to survive$

Ste#e: It &ight be so because &an has do&inion over ani&als through his collective
&ight and power$ But now he needs to collectively preserve the environ&ent3 earth and other3 i%
there is going to be another chapter o% world %uture$ So altruis& is a parado9Fone that &ight be
understandable in evolutionary ter&s$
CHAPTER TEN

S%*C*&E AN& RE!*RTH

The tenth set o% conversations continues with the subAect o% suicide3 %ollowed by a
discussion o% R$<$ Laing=s interest in @rebirthing=3 an argu&entative debate over the &erits o%
hu&anistic psychology3 and %inally Gans and Redler re%lect on @theory= in psychotherapy$


!ob: ;e were tal/ing about suicide3 and on re%lection I &ust ad&it I was ?uite surprised
by both o% you3 in the sense o% that you were both very negative about people=s rights to /ill
the&selves$

Ste#e: Ieah$

!ob: 2nd I Aust wanted to tal/ a little bit about that$ I &ean3 unless I=& &ista/en3 haven=t
you had lots o% personal e9perience in your own li%e o% people %inding li%e too &uch and having
to /ill the&selvesJ

Ste#e: Ieah$ The issue is that suicidal people are as/ing %or your per&ission3 they want to
/now that it=s 6: to /ill the&selves$ I can=t give &y 6: because I don=t thin/ anyone is entitled
to deprive &e o% the potential o% a relationship with the&$ I ta/e it personally$ There is also the
?uestion o% their responsibility to all the other 6thers in their li%e$

"eon: 2nd o%ten the grounds that so&eone thought they had %or /illing the&selvesFthat
there was no way out o% the terrible &isery and su%%ering they %eel i&&ersed inFcould be
&ista/en$ Deople &ight be con%used$ 2nd they &ight well be con%used as to who it is that=s
/illing who& in this sel%+&urder$

Ste#e: 2lso perhaps worse than death is not being able to dieC we Aust don=t /now that we
can put an end to ourselves so easily$ >ust because you ta/e your physical li%e3 you=re not
guaranteed an e9istential death3 the end o% your possibilities$

!ob: 6:3 this is what I want to tal/ about ne9t$ ;e can co&e bac/ to these things3 but
whatF

"eon: Can I Aust say one &ore thing on thatJ

!ob: Ieah$

"eon: I do thin/ people have a right to /ill the&selves$ I don=t thin/ they ought to be
deprived o% a legal right to /ill the&selves$ Suicide was illegal in the 4:3 I thin/3 as recently as
%orty years ago$ I certainly thin/ that when people are in the throes o% su%%ering %ro& an incurable
disease and are in pain that they can=t bear any longer3 and the ?uality o% li%e that is possible and
open to the& is not at all desirable Othough even there3 they could be &ista/enFthey &ight not
be correctly @diagnosing= their situation3 including their possibilitiesP3 I can understand that they
&ay want to end their lives as the only e9it they can see %ro& their su%%ering$ 2nd I &ight well
a%%ir& that that is the best thing they can do3 i% that=s what they thought%ully choose3 under the
circu&stances$ Still it goes against the grain to say @yes= too readily to the ta/ing o% li%e$

!ob: Can we tal/ about deathJ Because one o% the strengths o% the boo/FI=ve been
reading all the things we=ve said so %arFis that it=s not Aust about psychotherapy3 it=s about wider
things3 which I thin/ are interesting$ 2nd again you=re /ind o% loosely /nown as e9istential
psychotherapists3 so this should be &eat and potatoes %or you anyway$ Can you tal/ about deathJ
;hat you both personally i&agineFwhat is the best way that we can thin/ about death3 and
there%ore dyingJ

"eon: ;ell3 I can=t i!a"ine anything about death3 and I certainly don=t kno# anything
about death$ It=s the ulti&ate disruption o% this li%e e9perience and it=s un/nowable and
uni&aginable$ Most o% us %ind it di%%icult to co&e to ter&s with and accept what we ta/e to be an
ulti&ate li&it to all this$ 2s I=ve beco&e older3 I=ve co&e to better accept that this is a %inite
Aourney3 and accepting the %initeness o% it3 the li&it to it3 enhances the li%e that I live and sharpens
up the choices that I &a/e$ It also helps &e realise how I=& evading choices and decisions$

!ob: ;hat about a Buddhist3 or the person who has an a%%inity with the Buddhist view3
and hence reincarnationJ

"eon: I thin/ it=s a &ista/e to attribute to all Buddhists a belie% in reincarnation$
Buddhis& developed where there were already belie%s and views o% reincarnation$ Many
Buddhists do believe in reincarnation3 certainly &ost Tibetan Buddhists3 but I don=t thin/ it=s an
essential belie%$ There aren=t any essential belie%s that so&eone &ust have to %ollow the way o%
the Buddha$ I have no &e&ory o% reincarnation and no belie% in it3 or disbelie%$ I=ve been
interested in stories that people have told3 or that I=ve read3 about their e9periences which they
present as reincarnation$ 2nyhow3 there are plenty o% &eanings to a notion o% reincarnation even
in this one li%e+ti&e$ ;e have &any possible &o&ents o% birth and o% death &etaphorically3 o%
co&ing into and leaving3 o% being born into and dying to this or that way o% being3 way o%
relating3 way o% e9periencing$

Ste#e: There=s an e9istential di&ension to &y thin/ing about death$ Beidegger taught
that ti&e is %inite$ Truth3 /nowledge3 %oundations &ust be understood in ter&s o% %inite ti&e$ My
e9istence has a li&it$

!ob: Iour e9istenceJ

Ste#e: It has a li&it3 and i% I=& authentic3 I live with a sense that &y e9istence stretches
%ro& birth to death$ Deople tend to %lee %ro& death$ Beidegger calls ordinary everyday levelled+
o%% inauthentic being the @ they self (one does or one doesn=t do this or thatP$ Everyone is
escaping %ro& owning up to death$ ;hen one is old enough to be born3 one is old enough to die$
But &aybe death isn=t si&ply the end o% &y possibility$ 8or e9a&ple3 the end o% possibilities
doesn=t preclude reincarnation$ 6% course Beidegger is tal/ing about this li%e+ti&e$ 2t every
&o&ent there=s a /ind o% being born3 a /ind o% orgas& (ekstasis), and a dying$ 2nd we only
i&per%ectly realise that ecstatic &o&ent in every &o&ent3 that is3 the e9tra+ordinary in the
ordinary o% every &o&ent$ Now i% we lived %ully3 then death wouldn=t necessarily be so&ething
to be %eared3 because i% we=ve been living %ully3 then at each &o&ent we=re dying$

!ob: Be%ore you say thatFSorry LeonF8or the uninitiated3 could you Aust spell out in a
bit &ore detail3 when you say that i% you live li%e to the %ull3 then you should have no %ear o%
dying3 what do you &eanJ

Ste#e: <eath is in every &o&ent in the sense that this &o&ent could potentially be our
very last &o&ent3 so why not be doing what we wantJ This &o&ent is the ti&e o% our life.

!ob: But as you would say3 you &ight not want to do it3 but because you live %or other
people3 you do it$ So that=s the co&pro&ise$

Ste#e: But I would turn it around again3 and say actually rather than a co&pro&ise3 that
we don=t /now that there is this possibility which ends possibility3 &aybe we can=t die$ There=s
no guarantee$ Maybe there=s so&e way that we do go on3 and we certainly do go on in ter&s o%
our contribution to 6thers and our responsibility$ ;e=re obliged towards 6thers as responsible to
and %or the&3 be%ore we=re born3 and a%ter we physically dieC this notion is beyond anything
Beidegger &ight have thought as ethics$ Ethics is not a co&pro&ise3 ethics is &ore rigorous than
Beidegger$ Beidegger doesn=t tal/ about responsibility to other people in his notion o% e9istential
thin/ing3 and this is where I would part co&pany with Beidegger$

!ob: Leon3 what was it you were going to sayJ

"eon: That our lan"ua"e, in %act3 spea/s o% this very beauti%ully$ Thin/ o% breath$ Each
breath is an inspiration3 in3 and an e9piration3 out$ E9piration is also a word we use %or dying$ ;e
e9pire3 die3 and then we inspire3 we have3 or we are3 this co&ing to li%e againFwe inspire andEor
are inspired$ So there=s an inspired takin" in of life and a lettin" "o of it, happening at each
instant, i% we tune into it3 which helps bring ho&e the truth o% i!per!anence in each &o&ent3
because it=s always a fresh breath$ ;e &ight live our lives in such ways as to repress and deny
the %reshness o% each &o&ent3 but there it isH It=s a fresh &o&ent3 each !o!ent.

But what does it &ean to @believe in reincarnation=J Because there=s a proble& %or
Buddhists who spea/ o% reincarnation3 na&ely3 #ho or #hat reincarnates1 The Buddha3 a%ter all3
taught i!per!anence and no self. So i% so&eone @believes inreincarnation=3 what or who is it that
they believe is reincarnatedJ There isn=t a Buddhist doctrine o% any eternal3 abiding soul$ Now I
suppose what can be said to reincarnate is the conse$uences o% what I=ve done in &y li%e3 &y
@/ar&a=3 good or bad$ I can suppose that a%ter &y death3 that continues to have e%%ectsFthe %il&s
or boo/s you=ve done3 BobC the paper you=re about to give3 SteveC the boo/ or wor/shops we
co&e up withC or the #ays each of us is livin" our lives$ These continue to have effects through
those who& we=ve touched in so&e ways and who live on a%ter we=re gone$ 6ur actions and
e9pirations will have provided the source o% inspirations3 though not necessarily anything we had
in &ind or would say @yes= to now$ It doesn=t &a/e sense to &e to thin/ o% @&e= being e&bodied
in so&e other body3 unless3 with Thich Nhat Bahn3 I thought o% %!e as !ade entirely of
non.!e ele!ents which return3 recycled3 in so!e #ay. But that=s a secular view based on &y
li&ited e9perience$ I can=t say anythin" or &a/e +ud"e!ents about the e9periences o% Tibetan
Ri&poches3 believed to be reincarnations o% earlier Ri&poches and whose %ollowers3 a%ter they
die3 will be on the loo/+out %or instructions3 %ro& who /nows where3 %or %inding their ne9t
incarnations$

In ter&s o% &y @ownness= and !y death, the re&ar/s you were &a/ing3 Steve3 about
where you part co&pany with Beidegger3 also re%er to Levinas3 considering the Others death as
the &ore i&portant death$ But how do we get to that3 how do we co&e to realise that3 i% it is
indeed the caseJ There=s a gap between where we &ight be now3 and a realisation o% the 6ther=s
death being &ore i&portant$ I thin/ that could be bridged by as/ing' what does it &eans to spea/
o% @&e= and @&y own=J ;hat is actually &y own3 since each breath in I ta/e is an inspiration3 and
each breath out is an e9piration$ It=s all i&per&anent3 it=s always a new ball+ga&e$ ;ell &aybe
one o% the things that continues across that gap is !y responsibility, &y responsibility in this li%e+
ti&e' &y responsibility to respond to you i% you say good+&orning to &e3 or answer you i% you
as/ a ?uestion3 or i% you as/ &e to give you a hand with so&ething$ So &aybe one way to thin/
o% &y o#nness is as !y responsibility %or the 6ther and the 6thers$ There are so&e advantages to
thin/ing o% it that way$ It &ight actually be as true and have as good a basis as any assertions we
can &a/e about this &ysterious3 e9tra+ordinaryEordinary li%e we=re thrown into$ 2nd it=s got a
/ind o% heuristic advantage$ I% I thin/ o% what=s &ine as &y responsibility3 rather than what I can
aggrandise and appropriate3 it /eeps &y ego %ro& getting too swollen$

Ste#e: 6ne o% the proble&s again with the e9istentialist attitude is that it a&pli%ies the
notion o% the sel%3 and that can get in the way o% relating to others$ The other person is a wound to
&y narcissis&3 to &y egocentricis&3 and I can=t really &ove toward another without so&ehow
trying to /eep &y own narcissistic egocentric attitudes3 greeds and %ears and e&otions3 so&ewhat
in chec/3 or in suspension$ Now this is where I thin/ that the practice o% psychoanalysis is
help%ul$ 2nd I also %eel that in a way 8reud and Ronnie go bac/ to a Socratic philosophical
practice$ Socrates said that philosophy is really the practice o% dying$ Now what did he &ean by
thatJ I thin/ he &eant an e9a&ined li%e$ 2nd what is an e9a&ined li%eJ To e9a&ine how one is
being Aust in relationship to others in the world$ The &ost i&portant issue %or Socrates was the
good3 and that is so&ething that co&es about politically3 through politics$ 2nd unless one is
wor/ing toward the good3 then what is it that one is doingJ Bow can we have a li%e worth livingJ
There=s a way in which 8reud is an incarnation o% the lost art o% Socratic practice$ 2nd at every
&o&ent in the therapy situation you do co&e across what could be called a death+driveF8reud
called it the co&pulsion to repeat3 to &a/e everything the sa&e3 to &a/e static3 to reiterate itC
these are people=s @nu&bers= which are destructive o% their relationships with others$ 2nd these
co&e up and get pointed out in the therapy3 in order to help people realise their @nu&bers= so as
not to be chained to deadly co&pulsiveness$ Therapy enables you to be %reed+up %or a %reer
association3 to associate %reely$ 2lso3 at the end o% every hour there=s a practice o% a &ini+dying$
Beginning the session3 co&ing in3 &i&es a /ind o% birth3 a %resh beginning3 a new beginningC and
leaving is a /ind o% ending3 a /ind o% dying a death$ It=s a rehearsal %or pregnant or &ore %ully
realised living$ It=s a way to brea/ through one=s narcissis& and o&nipotence and accept
li&itation3 se9ual di%%erence and death$

"eon: The end o% the session could be seen not Aust as a rehearsal %or death3 but also %or
any separation. ;e have a separation at birth3 a separation when a child crawls away %ro& its
&other %or the %irst ti&e3 to be on its own with her still about3 a separation when a /id goes to
school3 when it eventually leaves ho&eFand so&e o% us %ind we get other separations with
divorces3 until the great big %inal separation3 or what we ta/e to be the %inal separation %ro& li%e$
There=s attach!ent, separation and loss within li%e+death$

Ste#e: Ies3 when the %oetus is born3 it &ust e9perience this as a /ind o% dyingFco&ing
into the world is our %irst death$ The dread%ul has already happened$

"eon: ;ell3 we can go %urther bac/$ 2t conception there are two cells that are3 in a way3
dying by %or&ing this new one$ 2nd at birth the baby is separated %ro& the rest o% the u&bilical
cord and the placenta3 which is partly co&posed o% what was originally e&bryonic tissue$ Iet
spea/ing o% origins passes too ?uic/ly over a proble&3 because where is the origin or the
beginning o% all thisJ That3 or he or she3 which co&es to thin/ o% itsel% as an % is3 at all levels3
@itsel%= al#ays already other. 6r as Thich Nhat Bahn would say3 I3 Leon, a& &ade o% non.Leon
ele!ents and I=& i&plicated in inter.bein" with all else$ ;here can I be said to have begunJ But
there is &aAor shi%t at birth$

Ste#e: The wo&b+world is lost when the %oetus enters the world$ Therapy is a process
which &etaphorically recapitulates conception3 i&plantation3 gestation3 etc$ Therapy is a
rebirthing in an e9istential senseC it overco&es resistance and enables a co&ing into the world$
;hen the patient arrives in the roo&3 so to spea/3 they are ready and able to leave$ They have
&oved %ro& withdrawal and isolation to relatedness$

"eon: 2&ong the proble&atics o% therapy is that there are two hu&an beings involved3
and the one who=s co&ing %or therapy3 o% course3 isn=t the only one who %inds li%e proble&atic
and puGGling$ 2nd as to this possibility o% being stuc/ in so &any ways at so &any levels3 it=s
possible that therapists are stuc/ too3 despite having been through their own training3 analysis
and so onFas I certainly was and still &ay be$

Ste#e: The di%%erence is one o% &ore or less$ The therapist3 to conduct the therapy ritual
as a relation with the 6ther3 &ust be able to put the 6ther %irst3 to @Aust listen=$ There are two
distinct ways o% approaching listeningEthin/ing$ 6ne way is to consider ideas3 %ro& the point o%
view o% logic$ Bere in%ancy and childhood is irrelevant$ Then there are the genealogists who
believe the develop&ent o% ideas is absolutely crucial Y not only their historical conte9t3 but also
the personal history o% the thin/er who thought the&$ Now 8reud was a "enealo"ist. In %act
theory %or hi& was only a cover story %or narcissis&$ Now where does genealogy beginJ 8reud
always traced it bac/ to archaeology3 to roots3 to the archE, to the %irst beginnings$ But where are
a person=s %irst beginningsJ ;here are 8reud=sJ 8reud=s thin/ing was re%le9iveC it was concerned
with the %orces in play in its own constructions$ 8reud considered his own psyche and &ind in
ter&s o% the dyna&ics o% his unconscious as revealed through his analysis o% drea&s3 and his
sel%+analysis$ 8reud returned to the depth structure o% 6edipal con%lict latent in his childhood
&e&ories$ 8ollowing 8reud3 :lein goes bac/ to the i&pact o% the breast as a basic te&plate o%
e9perience$ Ran/ returns to the trau&a o% birth$ Ronnie considered the possibility that the
e9perience o% the foetus was crucial %or the patterning o% later li%e e9perience$ This is a
contribution to the genealogical narrative o% theory and practice$ I% the transition %ro& #o!b to
#orld is signi%icant3 then we &ust attend to the possibility that our clients= @nu&bers= go bac/ to
the gestation period$ Ronnie e9pounded on this view in The (acts of Life.

"eon: 8ro& conceptionF

Ste#e: 8or e9a&ple3 you can &ap the story o% the blastula3 stic/ing or not stic/ing into
the endro&etriu&3 on to a person getting stuc/ into things and %eeling stuc/ or not being able to
stic/ at anything$ Ronnie considered that the e9perience o% not being able to stic/ at things &ight
be a replay o% an i&plantation proble&atic$ ;e see this sort o% thing in our clients all the ti&e$ 6%
course they o%ten have a proble& stic/ing in therapy$ 2nd then li%e beco&es a replay3 over and
over again3 o% not being able to get stuc/ into anything$

"eon: 6r very proble&atic stic/ing$ Ronnie considered that what we &ight thin/ o%as a
%yes.yes %had to happen between the blastula and the uterine wall3 at a bioche&ical3 physiological
and any other level3 %or there to be a really good ta/e3 a good i&plantation$ I% there was a @no+no=
there would be no i&plantation3 the conception would be aborted3 or si&ply wouldn=t have
i&planted$ 6r3 with a @yes+no= or @no+yes= there &ight be a di%%icult i&plantation3 which &ight
result in a &iscarriage3 or an abortion$ Now one &ight %ind a correlation between a di%%icult
i&plantation that went to ter& and di%%iculties people have3 as you say3 stic/ing to anything3 or
dwelling3 or %eeling welco&ed$

!ob: 6:F

"eon: Now3 all this was very interesting$ Be pic/ed so&e o% this up %ro& previous
psychoanalysts3 including Ran/3 who& you &entioned3 and %ro& the writings o% 8rancis Mott$

Ste#e: ;ho=s a &ore esoteric analyst$

"eon: Ies3 but what was &ore proble&atic3 and this I thin/ is what you=re getting at3 is
the @birthings= that he staged$

Ste#e: I was getting to that$

!ob: Can we co&e to that in a &inuteJ Iou Aust hold onto what you were trying to say$
2nd we will get bac/ to it$ But I &ean this is what I can never understand' e9istential analysisF
to &eFthe positive thing about it is that it is about the here+and+now$ 2nd it=s about choices3
rightJ

"eon: B&&F

!ob: Is it easy to &arry that with an approach which tal/s about the origins o% today=s
proble&s as e&erging %ro& a long ti&e bac/J

"eon: I don=t have any di%%iculty with that$ I &ean Aust as current a%%airs involve what=s
going on now3 they also all have historiesFread and understood di%%erently by di%%erent parties to
or observers o% it3 o% course$ So we study history3 say o% the post+8irst ;orld ;ar period in
Europe$ I% we3 between us3 don=t understand and learn %ro& the &ista/es o% the versailles Treaty
and all that contributed to the rise o% the NaGis in Ger&any in the #.!"s3 and to their co&ing to
power in the #.,"s3 we=re at ris/ o% repeating hellish night&ares o% that order again$ I% we
understand so&ething o% the historical circu&stances that have led up to a given situation we=re
i&&ersed in3 we &ay have a better chance o% &a/ing intelligent decisions based on deep
understanding3 and we &ay be in with a better chance o% not having to replicate a %a&iliar pattern
o% e9perience and behaviour$

Ste#e: But as Ronnie said3 /nowing how you got into a prison doesn=t necessarily help
you get out$

"eon: But it &ight$

Ste#e: It doesn=t hinder the possibility o% getting out3 and it &ight help$ But the e&phasis
o% e9istentialist thought is on the %uture$ Bolding open the %uture as possibility or potentiality3 is
really a very i&portant aspect o% e9istential therapy3 rather than Aust rehashing the past$

"eon: Thin/ in ter&s o% that &etaphor o% the prison$ I &ight be in a prison3 and the door
&ight be open$ I% I a& clinging to so&e notion that I have to understand how I got here3 I &ight
be involved in unnecessary deliberation3 instead o% Aust getting up and wal/ing through the door$
But on the other hand3 I &ight actually have to re&e&ber or reconstruct how I got in there to get
out$ 8or instance i% I was in a labyrinth3 it would help to re&e&ber the twists and turns that got
&e there to %ind the way outC so&eti&es that=s necessary$

In ter&s o% the conception to birth phase o% li%e3 Ronnie thought it &ust &a/e a di%%erence
whether you=re conceived in love or not$ I thin/ that=s probably right3 and right at a pro%ound
level$ I% the %irst circu&stances which occasioned this particular li%e+cycle truly happened withEin
love3 that=s a pretty good startH The di%%erence between love and indi%%erence is vast3 and the
e%%ects o% each resonate ?uite di%%erently across &any registers o% our3 and others=3 lives$

Ste#e: The Suni Indians had the idea that babies were actually drea&t up$ 8irst you had
to be drea&t in order to be conceived$ So who /nowsJ It is a &ystery3 birth3 conception3 li%e3 all
o% it$

"eon: It sure is$

Ste#e: Bugh Craw%ord3 who was a colleague o% Ronnie=s and &y analyst and teacher3
was a passionate sailor$ Be used a sailing&etaphor to tal/ about therapy$ It=s a principle o%
navigation that in order to get so&eplace3 you %irst have /now where you are$ Iou have to
triangulate to /now your position3 in order to set sail in a direction$ I% you are in hell3 you don=t
/now where you are$ Iou need a guide to discover where you are in order to go through it and
get out$ Iou can=t Aust avoid where you are3 or Au&p over it to get to a better place$

!ob: Rebirthing3 let=s continue with rebirthing$

Ste#e: Rebirthing$ Ronnie &ade a use%ul distinction between recession and regression$
;hen a person %rea/s out3 goes into a @schiGophrenic= state3 heEshe o%ten regresses$ In this state
heEshe &ight revert to a %oetal position and curl up in a corner o% the roo&3 as i% in a wo&b+li/e
state$ By contrast3 in recession you &ight loo/ into a %ire and you start to deconstruct your
%i9ations3 your everyday e9perience$ In &editative practices and in therapy you can unravel your
%alse sel% without ris/ing regression$

"eon: ;ouldn=t you say then that the essential ele&ent o% recession is receding %ro& all
the distinctions that you=ve &adeJ

Ste#e: IeahF

"eon: Towards no distinctions$

Ste#e: Ronnie=s birthings were based on what he saw @wor/ed= as practised in New Ior/
with EliGabeth 8ehr$ Birthings were recessions3 although people &ight have thought they were
suggestions3 inductions3 regressions$ Ronnie=s birthing wor/ co&ple&ented therapy by
accelerating the recession process3 but I don=t /now o% any occasion when it precipitated a
regression$ Ronnie ca&e in %or severe criticis& a&ongst his colleagues %or doing it3 because it
did turn into a bit o% a circus$ In the sense o% rebirthing hundreds o% people in theFwhere was itJ

"eon: I didn=t go3 but it was at one o% the hotels near Byde Dar/$

Ste#e: Bilton Botel on Dar/ Lane$

"eon: That was with Carl Rogers wasn=t itJ

Ste#e: Ies$ Be did a nu&ber o% these sessions3 with a group o% @birthers=$ It was
bordering on hu&anistic psychologyC one event too/ place in Geneva3 sponsored by the
European 2ssociation o% Bu&anistic Dsychology$ Typically people involved in psychoanalytic
therapy run a &ile %ro& hu&anistic psychology$ Bu&anistic psychology has a serious downside
Y it can be super%icial3 and o%ten operates without clear boundaries$ Deople can be seduced into
thin/ing they have gained instant enlighten&ent$ 6%ten they are only e9periencing a @contact
high=$ This high can be addictive and as a result such people can beco&e @wor/shop groupies=$

!ob: Dresu&ably hu&anistic psychologists would say to you that=s what an analytic
psychoanalyst would say3 because he wants you to thin/ that your proble&s are deep+seated so
you can co&e bac/ &ore o%ten %or a longer period o% ti&e3 etc$3 etc$ Now tell &e e9actly3 both o%
you3 what is it you have against hu&anistic psychologyJ I &ean I=& Aust playing the devil=s
advocate$

Ste#e: Bioenergetics3 encounter groups3 etc$3 none o% these approaches are su%%iciently
sensitive to the proble&s o% trans%erence$ They don=t have a sense o% how people are idealising
the therapist$ So instead o% seeing this as a proble&3 that is a replay o% a person=s proble&s in
li%e3 they encourage it3 and so people can get stuc/ in an idealisation o% the guru3 the therapist$ So
in a way3 what it does is it e9acerbatesC it increases the very proble& that people are co&ing %or3
to resolveFdependence$ I=& not saying that this doesn=t happen in psychoanalysisC it does$

But psychoanalysis is set up to dispel trance states brought about by suggestion and
trans%erence$

!ob: Let &e Aust be devil=s advocate again$ I &ean notwithstanding what you=ve said3
%ro& &y e9perience3 the &aAority3 not the &inority o% psychoanalytic practitioners3 to &e do not
practise in a way that will brea/ down anything$ I cannot see how a co&&unication which is so
one+sided3 where one person is doing nearly all the tal/ing3 one person is doing nearly all the
listening3 and where there=s very little action in between3 how that can brea/ down anything$

Ste#e: 2nalysis is set up to &ove the client %ro& being a patient Y reactive and dependent
Y to being an agent3 able to e9press and enact their desire$

"eon: 8or so&e it &ight be the %irst ti&e that they=ve really spo/en$ 2nd the %irst ti&e
that anyone has actually listened$ 2nd #e !ay need to be really listened to, and heard, before #e
can really speak.

!ob: That &ay not be true$

Ste#e: Dossibly3 but %or us the point is that a /ind o% psychoanalytic ideology has
developed that ignores +ust listenin". Deople thin/ they are observing the orthodo9 rules o%
psychoanalysis3 but 8reud didn=t practise that way3 that is as a so+called blan/ screen$ 2nd that
isn=t what psychoanalysis is &eant to be3 in &y view3 at all$ It=s &eant to be ethical$ It=s not
&eant to set up this estrange&ent e%%ect3 that people then perpetuate inde%initely$ Dsychoanalysis
then beco&es a &oney+tree %or practitioners because they=re indulging people in their &asochis&
by being sadists or sadistic$ It is a sadistic way o% beingFwithholding3 by silenceFand patients
are Aust being indulged in their &asochis&$ This is not what 8reud intended when he advocated
abstinence and neutrality$

8reud was on about bringing people who were unable to enAoy and live li%e vitally to the
place where they could enAoy li%e and be vital$ 2 person=s instinct %or sel%+presentation is o%ten
what=s preventing the& %ro& relating$ They have developed a de%ence syste& calculated to avoid
being touched or reached by anyone$ 8reudian listening brea/s down de%ences and opens the
person to accept their %ragilities at the core o% their being$ They are touched3 and begin to relate$
Now this can be done by sitting behind the patient3 as 8reud chose to do3 or in a %ace+to+%ace
&eeting$ Not showing your reactions to what patients say when you sit behind the& avoids the
negative i&plications o% suggestion$ 2nd this is why 8reud did it that way$ I thin/ a &aAor
proble& in hu&anistic psychology is that they use suggestion$ This induces a trance state in one
%or& or another3 and you can=t have an ethical relationship with so&eone in a trance state$ 8reud
set up psychoanalysis because he started out as a hypnotherapist$ Be &oved away %ro&
hypnotherapy to avoid suggestion3 so as to enter an ethical relationship with patients$ Levinas
spea/s o% the ethical relationship as %ace+to+%ace3 and it &ay sound odd that 8reud who was not
actually literally loo/ing at the 6ther was &eeting the 6ther %ace+to+%ace$ But Levinas does not
&ean loo/ing literally at the 6ther=s visage$ I do &eet &y clients @%ace+to+%ace=3 in that they sit
opposite %acing &e &ost o%ten$

!ob: Be%ore you co&&entFyou said because %unda&entally it=s an @ethical= practice$
;hat does that &eanJ

Ste#e: It=s ethical when you are putting the other person first. This is what 8reud=s
practise enables3 and this is what wor/s in &y view3 and what=s therapeutic in the psychoanalytic
situation$ 2 psychoanalystEpsychotherapist &ust not be on an ego+trip$ Now in ordinary li%e3 &ost
o% the ti&e3 we are &ore or less indulging our own egos$ 2nd there%ore not really genuinely
putting the other person %irst3 ethically$ In the therapy situation the other person ought to &atter
&ore to &e3 than I &atter to &ysel%3 %or that hour$ Now I can=t3 ?uite %ran/ly3 live li%e putting the
6ther %irst at every &o&ent$ This would be the way o% the saint$ But I endeavour to give the
other person &y %ull ti&e3 attention3 care and concern3 during a therapeutic hour$ I call this
ethical psychotherapy3 or +ust listenin".

!ob: 6:3 6:$ Leon3 do you want to say so&ethingJ

"eon: Ies3 you as/ed why we were against @hu&anistic psychology=$ I=& not against
hu&anistic psychology3 nor a& I %or it$ I don=t have a position on @it= and I don=t thin/ it=s help%ul
to tal/ about whether we=re %or or against hu&anistic psychology3 because what is it that we=re
tal/ing aboutJ There=s a whole range o% things under the %lag o% hu&anistic psychology$

Ste#e: Li/e the hu&anistic psychotherapies$

"eon: ;e ought to be ?uite speci%ic about what we=re tal/ing about$ There are people
who practise under the %lag o% hu&anistic psychology who3 %ro& &y point o% view3 and probably
%ro& Steve=s too3 are practising very ethically3 and not practising suggestion or putting people in
trancesC and there are psychoanalysts who are not practising ethically3 and are practising
suggestion3 and putting people in trances$ But3 going bac/ to the title o% our boo/3 2ust Listenin",
I thin/ there=s so&ething ?uite re&ar/able and precious going on i% we can help so&eone via a
/ind o% Aust listening3 listening without any particular %ra&ewor/3 or agenda3 as %ar as that=s
possible$ That corresponds to the person %acing us %ree+associating3 or saying whatever occurs to
hi& or her3 whatever he or she is thin/ing or %eeling$ I thin/ that /ind o% Aust listening is rare3 and
o% course we=re playing on the other &eaning o% AustFnot Aust @si&ply=3 but also @Aust= as in
Austice$ >ustice springing %ro& ethical relatedness will have a sound %oundation$ 2nd Austice will
be best served i% one listens without preconceptions3 without trying to %it so&eone into a
particular&ould3 without trying to &anipulate so&eone to go this way or that way$
Dsychoanalysis3 at its bestFthe /ind o% ethical psychoanalysis or the ethical 8reudian practice
that Steve=s tal/ing aboutFhas a better chance o% doing that than any /ind o% dog&atic rigid
orthodo9 psychoanalysis on the one hand3 or &any /inds o% hu&anistic psychologies3 which can
be &anipulative3 on the other$ They start out %ro& a position o% thin/ing that they /now3 they=re
/nowledge+based3 in a way that ethical psychoanalysis is not3 or aspires not to be$ ;e start with
listening and ?uestioning3 including putting ourselves and the 6ther in ?uestion3 attentively and
openly$ These are the s/il%ul &eans we aspire to rather than so&e sort o% technical e9pertise$
;hat=s being alluded to here doesn=t %all under the heading o% an idea3 or lo"os, or an @ology= o%
any ideology$

Ste#e: The 6ther is not Aust &y idea o% what or who I thin/ the 6ther is3 as I conceive
and conceptualise the 6ther3 because that would be &y idea3 &ore &e than the 6ther$ ;hat
8reud and psychoanalysis contribute is an appreciation o% the unconscious$ Droperly understood
this &eans letting &ysel% and the 6ther be in%inite and ulti&ate &ysteries$ The unconscious is
6ther$ The 6therness o% the other person &ust be allowed to re&ain a !ystery. Not reducing the
6ther to &y idea3 but allowing the 6thers their 6therness3 and honouring that 6therness3 allows
&e to tune+in to what 8reud called the unconscious depth and dyna&ic o% their sel% and other
relationships$ Deople o%ten co&plain that others don=t let the& be$ ;e have a lot o% e9pectations
o% one another3 to be this way or that way3 to co&ple&ent or collude with us$ 2nd so it=s ?uite a
revelation to have an e9perience o% being accepted si&ply as 6ther$

!ob:FLpausesMFChanging the subAectFregarding ethical practice3 where does the
relevance o% e&pirical proo% o% its e%%icacy co&e into the e?uationJ

"eon: ;hat do you &eanJ

!ob: ;ell you /now the way you=re describing what you do is Aust what a good priest
does$ So what &a/es it di%%erent %ro& what a good priest doesJ 2part %ro& the %act that a good
priest doesn=t charge as &uch$

Ste#e: It &ay not be that di%%erent$

"eon: 2re you thin/ing pri&arily o% a Catholic priest and the practice o% con%essionJ
;ellF

!ob: Not Aust that3 but a priest &ight ta/e the ti&e to listen to you$ 2nd o%%er his
e9perience$

"eon: ;ell3 there &ight be &any parallels i% the priest doesn=t insist that the 6ther adopt
a certain dog&a or tell the 6ther there=s a right way to live while clai&ing to spea/ with the
authority o% a Church which clai&s to spea/ with divine authority and sanction$

Ste#e: There=s a di%%erence' priests have a code o% conduct$ 2n ethical relation can=t start
out with any presuppositions3 a set o% rules or a code o% conduct$ 2lso people have abandoned the
church3 they don=t go to priests$ But the ?uestion I thought you were as/ing about was the
e&pirical issue o% outco&es$

"eon: Bow can we prove that we=re doing what we=re tal/ing aboutJ Bow can we /now
that what we=re tal/ing about doing is what we doJ 2nd how do we /now that i%3 in %act3 we are
doing that3 that it=s any better than not doing itJ Those are ?uestions that arise$

Ste#e: The other person is singular3 there%ore the other person can=t be categorised3 and
there%ore is not a&enable to e&pirical research$ There can not be a science o% hu&an relations$
Iou can=t test a hypothesisFput so &any people in a control group3 getting non+ethical therapy3
and so &any people getting it3 and deter&ining which group had a better outco&eC you can=t do
this type o% research$

!ob: But where does the theory co&e into itJ Is it Aust one theory a&ongst the whole bag
o% tric/s that you haveJ 6r do you believe that theory hasF$

Ste#e: It=s not a theory3 it=s not theoretical$

"eon: It=s not theoretical$ Go on3 challenge us on thatH

!ob: No3 no3 no3 I &ean li/e 8reud has a theory$

Ste#e: Be has a theory that I would say is a cover story$ Bis &eta+psychology is about
psychopathology and its psychological develop&entC it has very little to do with his practice o%
psychoanalysis$ 2nd this is where people get very &isled and con%used$ Bis theory is3 I would
argue3 political$ It is engaged in the politics o% science and &edicine$ There is what=s called a
&odern contract between politics OBobbesP and science OBoyleP$ Dolitics deals with power in
regard to people$ It is concerned with ?uestions o% legiti&acy3 authority and govern&ent$ Science
is concerned with /nowledge3 about things o% the natural world$ Iou needed political or scienti%ic
credentials to be ta/en seriously and allowed to ta/e part in discourses and conversations3 and
practices o% one sort or the other$ 8reud3 in order to have a /nowledge+based practiceF
psychoanalysisFhad to tal/ in a language that would at least appear to pass &uster as the
discourse o% science3 even though it &ight have been intended to subvert that very discourse as
well as the &odern contract itsel%$ Dsychoanalysis is actually an anti+discourse$ It proble&atises3
disrupts and subverts rational discourse at its roots$ 8reud=s discourse could be called
deconstructive3 hence he was one o% the %irst post+&odern thin/ers3 and <errida never tires o%
paying hi& ho&ageF

"eon: ;hen you as/ed about theory3 and I said it=s not theoretical3 at that &o&ent I was
not tal/ing about 8reud3 but Levinas and the Levinasian ethics o% putting the 6ther %irst and
responsibility %or the 6ther$ Steve is then saying that his reading o% 8reud is an ethical reading o%
the 8reudian practice as a practice o% ethics3 o% putting the 6ther %irst$ ;hether or not you agree
with Steve that it was all a cover story3 surely there were %oundational theories o% psychoanalysis
including the theories o% the unconscious3 o% resistance3 o% trans%erenceFhypotheses that 8reud
believed were borne out by the evidence o% his practice$

Ste#e: 8reud derived and continually revised his theories %ro& his clinical e9perience$
unli/e scienti%ic theories3 psychoanalytic theories cannot be duplicated or ?uanti%ied$ So right
there and then one needs to be suspicious o% their status$ Now o% course there have been a lot o%
people who say it=s pseudo+science3 it=s a scienti%ic %airy+tale3 and there%ore have dru&&ed it out
o% court$ ;ell that presupposes that you can=t have a science o% persons$ 6% course such a
@science= &ight be a perversion3 i$e$ applying the reductive scienti%ic &ethod to people$

"eon: ;hen you as/ %or e&pirical proo% that whatever it is we=re doing wor/s3 whether
it=s what we say we=re doing or so&ething else3 you=re going to invite so&e o% the di%%iculties
that you encounter with your co&parison with a good priest$ Because how do we /now that the
priest is really doing any goodJ Bow do we /now that he=s bene%iting peopleJ Bow could we set
up a test %or thatJ Bow can we say with certainty that living in a loving relationship is better than
not doing soJ It=s obvious i% we=ve had any e9perience whatsoever in a loving relationship o% any
/ind3 with a partner or lover3 with a parent or a child3 with a sibling3 with a %riend3 with a
colleague3 or with dogs and cats and horses and so on3 or perhaps with &usic3 painting3 or nature$
;e /now that its transfor!ative, and it !akes all the difference in the #orld, that theres a #orld
of difference bet#een care and indifference. I% so&eone says Q;ell3 prove itR3 we could atte&pt
to design an e9peri&ent to prove it$ ;e=d have to try to de%ine care%ully what we thin/ we=re
tal/ing about3 try to set up an e9peri&ent with controls3 and so&ewhere along the way the baby
would get lost with the bath water$

Ste#e: ;ell o% course you=d have to /eep proli%erating hypotheses3 by &a/ing it &ore
and &ore speci%ic as to whether it=s this person delivering this particular type o% therapy in this
particular situation3 and it beco&es there%ore in principle i&possible to do scienti%ic
e9peri&entation on psychotherapy$ Dsychotherapy is &ore li/e opening up a play space3
encouraging the other to regain their lost ability to play. This cannot be obAectively &easured$

"eon: 2nd also you &ight devise a great test to chec/ out whether the people who are
seeing &e3 %or e9a&ple3 are bene%iting or not3 but you won=t be able to design a test which will
tell you whether they &ight have been better+o%% seeing Steve or Mrs So+and+So$ 6bviously
so&e people will really hit it o%% with one person and not another3 whatever it is they=re doing$

Ste#e: Iou see there=s no test %or the e%%ectiveness o% a Socratic dialogue$ 2nd I would
put it &ore in that category$ Iou /now that Socrates believed that it was better to have an
e&a!ined life than an une9a&ined li%e$ Dhilosophy was an art o% living3 the art o% living well$
Bow could you /now what living well is3 or what is a good li%eJ 6% course that is part o% the
e9a&ination o% li%e3 to raise that ?uestion$ That raising o% that ?uestion itsel% is part o% the whole
process you=re trying to %acilitate$ Now Levinas goes one step %urther and he says you %irst have
to do the good thing3 and then you co&e to /now that it was good retrospectively$ Iou have to
respond3 be%ore you even /now$

"eon: This re&inds &e o% so&ething I=ve tried to e9press on a nu&ber o% di%%erent
occasions about gi%t$
Ste#e: Ieah3 it=s giving a gi%t$

"eon: The /ind o% gi%ts that &ost people e9change at Christ&as aren=t really gi%tsC
they=re part o% a syste& o% e9change$ Li/e I have to get Bob a Christ&as present3 because Bob
got &e a Christ&as present$ 6r he got &e one last year3 and he=ll be o%%ended i% I don=t give hi&
one$

Ste#e: 2lso he could be giving an obligation rather than a gi%t$

"eon: I &ight be giving hi& an obligation to give &e so&ething$ 2nd I &ight actually
%eel it=s a drag to have to go downtown to %ind so&ething to get Bob %or Christ&as because he
got &e a present$ ;ell that=s a syste& o% e9change3 a /ind o% co&&erce3 and it &ight be
enAoyableF

Ste#e: It=s ego+trippingF

"eon: 6r it could Aust be ego+tripping and a /ind o% &isery that /eeps the econo&y
going$ 6n the other hand3 a real gi%t3 or gi%ting3 is so&ething that happens ?uite otherwise$ 2 gi%t
that happens when there=s no sense o% &eFgivingFa gi%tFto you$ It Aust happens$ I %irst
realised this when I %ound &ysel% tal/ing to so&eone3 &ore openly than I had on previous
occasions3 about so&ething that I had tended to withhold3 li/e a writer reluctant to spea/ openly
with another writer %or %ear the other &ight ta/e the idea and develop it %irst$ I had so&e nu&ber
li/e that going and it was only a%terwards that I realised that "ivin" had happened$ 2nd the
conditionFbut perhaps I should say the uncondition, %or it involved going beyond &y usual
condition and conditioningFthe condition %or it happening was that there was no conscious
intention3 and no conscious appropriation o% this$ The Christ&as present is part o% an e9change
rather than a @gi%t=$ ;ith the gi%t3 @I= don=t /now about @it= while it=s happening$ 2nd now I=ve
lost the threadF

Ste#e: 2bout this step beyond the Socratic /nowing the good3 which results in doing the
good$ 8or Levinas3 you do be%ore you /now$

"eon: Right3 so I did it be%ore I /new it$ This "ift involves doing it be%ore you even thin/
o% it3 and then3 having done it you co&e to realise so&ething3 and it %eels good$ Maybe it=s a
touch or taste o% graceC it=s not &y doing or /nowing$ I receive the gi%t o% giving$ It see&s related
to an @e9perience= o% no distinctions3 or recession3 or in Buddhist &editation ter&s a state o%
absorption or sa!adhi4 one can=t tal/ about e9periencing it in the ordinary sort o% a way3 because
%or an ordinary sort o% e9perience there=s an e9periencer3 and e9perience3 and an obAect o%
e9perience$ 2nd i% one=s tal/ing about no distinctions3 then there aren=t those distinctions$ But
one can only realise thatF

Ste#e: 2%terwards$

"eon: Receding %ro& it$

Ste#e: In the therapy situation there is the other person who& you=re listening to3 but
when you=re giving in advance a pro!ise to listen, in a way you are doin" before kno#in"= you
don=t /now what you=re going to hear3 and o% course you could be about to hear so&ething
dread%ul$ 2nd then you &ust respond to that$ It doesn=t &ean that when you agree to pro&ise to
hear that you will agree with what you=re hearing3 o% course$

"eon: 2nd in spea/ing o% it in that way3 you brings to &ind Levinas= reading o% the
Tal&udic discussion on the Biblical passage where the Israelites say3 regarding accepting the
co&&and&ents o% the Torah3 Q;e will do and we will hearR$ ;hy not we will hear and we will
doJ Because the ethical way isn=t3 at heart, about /nowing3 but about responding ethically$ 2nd
that=s what you=re %doin".

CHAPTER E"E'EN

THE PH*"A&E"PH*A
ASSOC*AT*ON

Dolitics and splits within the Dhiladelphia 2ssociation3 together with the accreditation
process and the 4:CD are the central %ocus o% the eleventh set o% conversations$

!ob: I=& very intrigued about the D23 and the accreditation process$ I /now there are
s?uabbles and disputes a&ong di%%erent &e&bers o% the D2 about thisF

"eon: There=s a Sen story in which the abbot3 co&ing through the yards o% his &onastery3
hears a %ew &on/s arguing$ They=re loo/ing at a %lag in the wind3 and one o% the& is saying
QLoo/3 the %lag is &ovingR3 and another is saying QNo3 no3 it=s the wind that=s &ovingR$ 2nd the
&aster co&es and tells the&' QNot the wind3 not the %lagC &ind is &ovingHR 2nother Sen adept
included a verse in his co&&ent on that story'

;ind3 %lag3 &ind &oves$

The sa&e understanding$

;hen the &outh opens

2ll are wrong$

;hy are there s?uabbles and disputesJ So&eti&es there=s a creative point and aspect to
the& or they can lead to a %resh and creative outco&e3 li/e in the Sen story3 the conte9t o% which
is people gathered together to see/ and help others to see/ and realise liberation %ro& the
egotistical @nu&bers= we=re caught up in3 @nu&bers= that cause ourselves and others unnecessary
su%%ering3 and o%ten &a/e us insu%%erable$ But o%ten s?uabbles and disputes are a bloody waste o%
ti&e and energy$ Dsychotherapists aren=t i&&une %ro& %alling into and getting caught up in ego+
trips3 power+trips3 thin/ing that they @/now=3 or %alling into dog&atic or ideological positions$
Groups3 especially or"anisations, o% psychotherapists who don=t %all into this at all &ust be the
e9ception rather than the rule$ 2nd pro%essional groups3 including registration bodies3 tend to be
loo/ing a%ter their own sel%+interest3 and not necessarily wor/ing in the spirit o% what=s best %or
the people the pro%essionals are &eant to be serving3 or even what=s best %or its pro%essional
&e&bership$ 2nd such groups are unli/ely to be guided by the priority o% ethical responsibility
and Austice$
Now the Dhiladelphia 2ssociation is involved with the registration body o%
psychotherapists called the 4:CDFthe 4nited :ingdo& Council %or Dsychotherapy$ In %act
we=re a wee/ away %ro& an inspectionFan assess&ent to see i% we=re worthy3 %ro& their point o%
view3 o% continuing to be registered within the psychoanalytic psychotherapy section$ 2nd there
are3 o% course3 political struggles and intrigues within that group3 as there have been and probably
still are in our group$ Steve and I3 as &e&bers o% the psychoanalytic psychotherapy training
co&&ittee o% the Dhiladelphia 2ssociation3 are both obliged to be &eeting these assessors or
inspectors ne9t wee/$

!ob: I thin/ you should tal/ about it$

Ste#e: 6:$ But %irst I=d li/e to tal/ about the ?uestion o% schis&s$ It=s well /nown that
there are huge divisions and splits within therapy groupsC this doesn=t &ean that there aren=t
divisions everywhere else3 say within the acade&ic world$ 2nd in the acade&ic world so&eti&es
these divisions get ?uite heated$ Even to the point where so&eti&es3 i% you are a graduate student
approaching a discipline in one way3 or through one &ethodology %or e9a&ple3 you &ight be
interested in say European philosophy$ So&eone in the depart&ent who is &ore 2nglo+2&erican
&ight actually try and prevent you %ro& receiving your doctoral degree3 and so on$ So there are
internecine wars between acade&ics$ But I thin/ that what I e9perienced &oving %ro& acade&ics
to wor/ing in therapeutics is so&ething I hadn=t actually anticipated3 and it was ?uite a shoc/$
Because you are the vehicle3 yoursel% personally3 who is actually giving the therapy3 it=s %air dues
that every aspect o% your person be considered as to whether or not you=re appropriate or not to
be doing the Aob$ 2lso beco&ing part o% a group &eans being representative o% it$ So it=s not Aust
your ability and co&petence intellectually3 as in acade&ics$ In therapeutics your ability to relate
to others is crucial$ Now o% course this Audge&ent on your ability to be with others is very
di%%icult to &a/e$ So then you get people who are the gate+/eepers in these therapy groups who
set the&selves up as the arbiters o% interpersonal sensibility$ They decide on who passes through
the door3 who goes through the eye o% the needle i% you will3 who will be anointed and appointed
as an appropriate agent to carry out therapy$ 2nd o% course there=s o%ten huge resent&ent when a
person is re%used entry3 even though he or she has been around3 has been a good student3 has
&anaged to gain all the necessary prere?uisite e9perience3 etc$ Iet the applicant &ay still be
thought to be @not su%%iciently analysed=3 to use a well+worn phrase %ro& the Institute o%
Dsychoanalysis3 that is3 not ready to be let loose on patients3 or on clients$ 2nd so it=s this aspect I
thin/ that &a/es therapy groups hot+house environ&ents3 notoriously so$ 2nd as hot.house
environ&ents3 the potentials %or splits areenor&ous$ Because once there=s a disagree&ent on the
suitability o% a given person3 this can beco&e the basis %or a split in the group$ 2nd so on$ So %or
e9a&ple Ronnie was so&eone who& so&e people have loo/ed bac/ on thin/ing well3 we really
have to obliterate his na&e %ro& the Dhiladelphia 2ssociation3 because he was not si&ply Aust an
enfant terrible and a <r >e/yll and Mr Byde3 he was co&pletely destructive$ 2nd there%ore he
should never even be &entioned in the Dhiladelphia 2ssociation which he %oundedC rather he
should be obliterated %ro& &e&ory3 al&ost Soviet+style$ Now obviously all o% us /new that he
had so&e negative ?ualities that were not really e9cusable3 that he hi&sel% didn=t e9cuse$ 2nd yet
he was an inspiration and a contributor3 and so&ebody %or e9a&ple who& &ost o% us wouldn=t
want to see e9punged %ro& recorded &e&ory3 and %ro& the archives$ Kuite the contrary$ So all
these splits are not only about the person3 but also the archive3 and who controls what the archive
will say$ 2nd so there=s an enor&ous a&ount o% debate within 8reudian scholarship3 about the
8reudian archive3 the 8reudian legacy and what is or isn=t @proper= psychoanalysis$ Much o% the
archive is inaccessible3 so a great deal o% scholarship has to be done without access to pri&ary
sources3 because there are people controlling access to what is and isn=t allowed to be read by
anyone who isn=t authorised$ 2nd o% course that creates a co&pany store3 a closed shop and a
distorted history$

"eon: Can you clari%y what you are calling an archive1

Ste#e: Letters3 docu&ents3 interviews with patients or supervisees3 or anything relevantC
evidence to help in &a/ing an assess&ent o% an individual and their pro%essional and personal
li%e=s wor/ and thought$ 2nd especially again this goes bac/ to &y %irst point' in the
psychoanalytical psychotherapy tradition the whole person is involved3 and so the whole person
is a relevant topic to consider$

!ob: Can we go through the history o% the D2J

"eon: I=& not sure o% the best way to approach that history3 whether with recent events or
&uch earlier ones$

Ste#e: Because this present situation has a history whose seeds were an earlier history$

"eon: 6:$ I ca&e to the D2 in #.01 as a young psychiatrist3 co&ing to see what Laing
and his colleagues were up to by &oving into :ingsley Ball3 and getting into regular /inds o%
tutorials andEor supervision o% patient wor/ with Ronnie$ The D2 was constituted by hi& and
several o% his colleagues3 particularly <avid Cooper3 2aron Esterson and Sid Bris/in$ The D2
that Steve ca&e intoF

Ste#e: That was in the early seventiesF

"eon:Fstill had R$<$ Laing as its central %igure and included Bugh Craw%ord3 a
psychiatrist3 also a Glaswegian3 who had been in 2&erica3 and had recently returned to the 4:$
Now there was very little doubt that it was &ainly the person and presence as well as the writings
o% Ronnie that attracted people to the D2$

Ste#e: 2lso >ohn Beaton should be &entioned3 because he was o%%ering a course in
pheno&enological psychotherapy training3 which attracted &e$ I didn=t /now Bugh Craw%ord
be%ore I ca&eF

"eon: That=s right$ >ohn wasn=t a %ounding &e&ber o% the Dhiladelphia 2ssociation3 but a
colleague o% Ronnie=s at the Langha& clinic and the 6pen ;ay3 presided over by Eric Graha&
Bowe$ 2nd Ronnie as/ed >ohn to start a psychotherapy training based on pheno&enology$
Because at the ti&e the D2 was %lying under a %lag o% social pheno&enologyF

Ste#e: Early on Ronnie called his approach @socialpheno&enology=3 which was intended
as a science o% hu&an relatedness$

"eon: Now3 at the ti&e3 who was this Laing who attracted peopleJ ;ell3 it was the Laing
who had written The )ivided 'elf %or a start3 a boo/ which was having a great e%%ect on peopleF
&oving and astonishing people3 leading &any people to consider this as a radical contribution to
the discourse o%F

Ste#e: Madness$

"eon:Fand psychiatry and psychopathology3 and led &any who were su%%ering to %eel
recognised3 o%ten %or the %irst ti&e3 in Ronnie=s writing$ So people %ro& around the worldF&ore
people3 at that ti&e3 %ro& beyond the 4:Fwere co&ing to London to touch base with this
scene3 &any %ro& 2&erica or elsewhere in Europe$ So&e people were co&ing %or help because
they had %ound being in &ental hospitals har&%ul or hadn=t %ound being in the& help%ul$ 6thers
hadn=t yet e&bar/ed on approaching the conventional psychiatric Establish&ent$ They %eared
that they wouldn=t %ind the understanding and help that they sought there3 and that their
su%%erings and con%usions would3 one way or another3 get worse$ 6thers who ca&e were students
and practitioners o% psychology3 psychiatry3 psychotherapy3 o% philosophy3 anthropology3
sociology and education3 and people involved in the arts3 particularly writers and poets$

6% course3 people co&ing as students were o%ten ?uite troubled too3 whether they realised
it or not3 to whatever e9tent they realised it or not$ 2nd I=ve &ade it per%ectly clear that I include
&ysel% as one o% those$ I ca&e as a young physician and psychiatrist3 and was only beginning to
realise how cut+o%% and alienated I was3 barely beginning$ The practice o% psychotherapy was
only one o% &any discourses and practices that were i&portant to people who were co&ing in
those days$ There was a &ore wide+ranging and open en?uiry going on$ 2nd spiritual issues and
?uestions had an i&portant place3 i% not %unda&ental and %irst place3 at the table$ It was pri&arily
through Ronnie that this interest in spiritual traditions3 East and ;est3 was nourished$ Reading
and discussions o% translations o% sacred te9ts3 and practices o% &editation3 and o% yoga3 were an
i&portant part o% the a&bience$ There was a lively interest in the arts3 in painting3 &usic3 poetry3
literature3 theatre3 in di%%erent sections o% what was spo/en o% as the @networ/=3 or the @D2
networ/=$ There was an openness to considering anything that &ight be help%ul to people who
were su%%ering3 to helping understand the nature o% su%%ering3 and helping to bring about a
reduction3 i% not possibly an e9tinction o% su%%ering$ I use that language and3 o% course3 it
resonates with the Buddhist 8our Noble Truths$ I had read >en (lesh, >en 7ones by Daul Repps
be%ore co&ing to London3 but aside %ro& that3 Sen and Buddhis& ca&e alive %or &e through
&eeting Ronnie3 and realising how alive all this was %or hi&$ Be considered attentiveness to the
body3 to the breath3 to the way one &oved3 in %act3 attentiveness to all o% ordinary li%e3 vitally
i&portant$ It was unco&&on then3 as it probably still is now3 %or all these &atters to &atter to
people involved as pro%essionals in responding to &ental distress$ But it certainly ca&e into the
Dhiladelphia 2ssociation discourse and practice$

Now as Ronnie got into @rebirthing= in the seventies3 as we were spea/ing o% a while ago3
and see&ed to be in a conversation or association with hu&anistic psychology people3 so&e
people who had trained with the D23 or who were training with us in psychotherapy3 began to
%eel uneasy about where he was going3 and3 partly in reaction to this3 &oved &ore towards a
psychoanalytic psychotherapy orientation$ There was a growing divide between those who
thought o% the&selves as psychoanalytic psychotherapists and others interested in investigating
pheno&ena in ways not con%ined by that discourse and practice$ Many o% these others were
enAoying and valuing Ronnie=s @birthings= another ventures into see/ing new group %or&s to help
people to get in touch with and3 hope%ully be %reed3 to so&e degree3 %ro& restrictive patterns o%
e9perience and behaviour that they were caught up in$ 6r even i% they weren=t seeing the value o%
it3 they trusted Ronnie enough and valued being in his presence3 whatever he was up to3 so that
they were ?uite ready to go along and participate in these groupsF%our to si9 o% the&
constituting a @tea&= that he was preparing to ta/e @on the road=3 while developing the theory and
practice o% those new ventures$ Still others were not especially interested in these e9peri&entings
with group e9ercises and rituals3 but saw no proble& with Ronnie and others engaging in that
wor/$ The D2 was not and never had been an e9clusive do&ain o% one set o% discourses and
practices3 nor was it &eant to be pri&arily a pro%essional body$

In late #.-" and early #.-# Ronnie was %eeling bloody aw%ul3 and on &any occasions
behaving in a way that others %ound bloody aw%ul$ Be was understandably hurt and angry on
discovering his wi%e had been having an a%%air3 begun right under his nose3 as it were3 at a large
public gathering with &any o% the @networ/= there$ It was3 o% course3 a very rough ti&e %or hi&
and his wi%e and %a&ily$ But it wasn=t con%ined to or contained within their %a&ilyC it got played
out in the e9tended networ/ in London3 which was a%ter all part o% his and his %a&ily=s social
&atri9$ 2nd there was a big split in the D23 particularly involving so&e o% the psychotherapists
who=d already begun to thin/ o% the&selves as &ore psychoanalytic and perhaps &ore
responsible than Laing3 %ro& their points o% view3 in view o% how Ronnie was co&porting and
conducting hi&sel% in and around several o% the D2 households intended as places o% asylu&3
co&&unity and dwelling %or people in &ental distress andEor social perple9ity$ 6r3 &ore
precisely3 the split was occasioned by the responses o% others to how Ronnie was behaving3 and
to the &oves3 counter+&oves3 resonances3 reverberations and i&plications o% all that$
Conversations and &ediations that &aybe could have and perhaps should have happened did not3
or were unsuccess%ul in their atte&pt$ Ronnie was behaving in ways that &any people %ound
unacceptable$ Be see&ed3 at ti&es3 li/e an inAured and raging bull3 and in that way was decidedly
di%%icult to be with$

I didn=t /now about his wi%e=s a%%air when I %irst beca&e aware o% and alar&ed at
Ronnie=s angry3 aggressive and belligerent behaviour$ Rather than tal/ to hi& about it3 which I
couldn=t %ind a way to do that I %elt co&%ortable with3 but which nevertheless I should have tried
to do3 I spo/e to >utta3 his wi%e3 o% &y concerns$ I wondered i% he wasn=t snapping3 going o%% the
deep end3 %rea/ing out$ She didn=t tell &e what she &ight have o% what had precipitated this$ But
she did tell hi& o% &y spea/ing to her and then phoned &e to warn &e that she had told hi&3 that
he was enraged with &e %or spea/ing to her about hi& in that way3 and that I=d al&ost certainly
be hearing %ro& hi&$ In other words' be warned3 watch out and I=& really sorry to have put you
in the hot seat$

;ell3 I soon heard %ro& hi&$ Be invited &e along %or an evening with 2rthur Balas/os3 at
that ti&e a close and trusted co&panion o% his and a guy I li/ed3 an open hearted and generous
&an I=d /nown %or ten years$ Bis e9+wi%e Mina was a good %riend o% &ine and his daughter was a
good %riend o% &y daughters$ Ronnie had as/ed 2rthur to Aoin hi& in calling &e on the carpet %or
spea/ing to his wi%e3 rather than to hi&3 and %or suggesting that he was or &ight be %rea/ing out$
Be was ?uite pissed+o%% with people saying %or years that he was &ad3 people who hadn=t &et
hi&3 or had3 but hardly /new hi& yet were ?uite prepared to invalidate hi&3 and spread ru&ours
about hi& that could har& his reputation$ 2nd here was I3 a %or&er student and a colleague and
%riend3 behaving in a way that was less than he would e9pect and accept %ro& &e$ ;ell3 it was an
invitation I couldn=t re%use3 and Menace was in the airH 2s the evening un%olded3 I wasn=t at all
sure that I wasn=t going to get physically3 as well as verbally pounded$ It loo/ed to be a set+up %or
a ritual dressing down3 i% not %or a &etaphorical3 i% not actual3 beating+up$ In the event it wasn=t
all that bad$ Ronnie gave &e a pretty hard ti&e with 2rthur3 on that occasion3 being a gentler and
&oderating in%luence3 or perhaps being the @good cop= to Ronnie=s @bad cop=$ I thin/ it was in the
course o% that night3 as the &eeting went on pretty &uch through the night3 that I heard %or the
%irst ti&e3 &ainly %ro& 2rthur3 o% the a%%air$ I thin/ I &ust have been very de%ensive as well as
trying to be open to the criticis& o% &y actions$ I was relieved that3 given Ronnie=s &any
e9cla&atory re%erences persisting through the night to the need %or the %slau"hter of evil, that I
and &y relationships with these guys see!ed to be surviving the night$ But I was too caught up
in &ysel%3 in &y an9ieties and insecurities3 in &y li&ited understanding and guilt at &y indirect3
uns/il%ul and unhelp%ul intervention3 that I didn=t then ade?uately tune into and %eel how very
pain%ul the &atter was %or Ronnie and3 indeed3 %or his wi%e and %a&ily$ 2nd I didn=t3 %or so&e
ti&e3 %ind a way to spea/ to hi& openly about what had happened and how he was behaving in
response to it$

This was a ti&e when Ronnie3 who had so o%ten "enerously &ade hi&sel% available to
people in distressFwhoever they were3 whatever his relationship to the&Fwas in distress
hi&sel%3 and &ost o% us around hi&3 %or this or that li&itation o% ours3 so&eti&es involving
egocentric andEor Audg&ental concerns3 weren=t able to really be there %or hi&3 and give hi& the
co&panionship3 consolation3 advice3 contain&ent and re%uge he could have bene%ited %ro&$ I
thin/ &any o% us3 individually and collectively3 let hi! do#n. I was trying to %ind &y own way to
doing otherwise and it wasn=t easy$

2&ong the things that he was doing or was alleged to have done3 at the ti&e3 was going
around to D2 co&&unity households and trying to seduce so&e o% the wo&en living in the
households3 and this was seen as out o% bounds$ 2lthough these people weren=t his patients3
&any %elt that as Chair&an o% the D2 he was in so&e way in loco parentis, so that an incestuous
relation o% sorts was being proposed3 which3 so&e assu&ed3 was either necessarily har&%ul in
itsel% to the wo&en and other residents involved3 andEor would be seen as such by those outside
the D23 to the detri&ent o% the reputation o% the D2$ 2t one D2 &eeting he was con%ronted by
Chris 6a/ley3 one o% the &e&bers3 with reports that several wo&en in a D2 household had said
he had tried to rape one or &ore o% the&$ Chris see&ed to believe the reports and was as/ing3 i%
not de&anding3 that Ronnie respond to the i&plied charge$ The &eeting was in Ronnie=s
consulting roo&3 which was in his ho&e3 where we were holding all our D2 &eetings at the ti&e$
Ronnie categorically denied the accusation3 called it a lie and a piece o% chee/ and arrogance3
was enraged and o%%ended to be so accused3 but re%used to discuss andEor account %or his
behaviour at this &eeting$ It was a singularly aw%ul and di%%icult Auncture$ I thought it too/ balls
%or Chris to con%ront Ronnie li/e that3 to call hi& on what he was reported to have been doing3
and there wasn=t any obvious congenial way o% doing it at that ti&e$ But I heard nothing3 then or
since3 that &ade &e thin/ the accusation was true$ Trying to get so&eone to go to bed with you3
which he had been doing3 has to be distinguished %ro& @rape=3 and I don=t believe %or a &o&ent
that Ronnie would have tried to rape anyone$

Since he re%used to discuss the &atter o% the accusation andEor account to his colleagues3
and in particular his Aunior colleaguesF%or&er studentsFthe &aAority o% the& %elt they had to
part co&pany with hi&$ 2t that ti&e they %or&ed their own group3 and continued to &eet as the
@Dhiladelphia 2ssociation=$ 6nly two other &e&bers Othere were @Me&bers= and @2ssociate
Me&bers=P didn=t go with the&F8rancis Bu9ley and &ysel%$

2ll these events were %urther co&plicated by various s/eletons in the D2 cupboard$ That
involves a story we can=t tell in this boo/in any detail3 although it=s hardly one that can avoid
being alluded to i% we=re see/ing to &a/e intelligible what was going on and what ensued at that
ti&e and in &ore recent years$ 'keletons in cupboards are o%ten associated with a %return of the
repressed, or at least its potential return3 which is no less potent a %actor %or being @only=
potential$ 2nd the events concerning Ronnie at the ti&e o% his crisis3 events which led to his
resigning %ro& the D23 as well as the s/eletons in the cupboard3 all continued to reverberate
across the decades3 playing usually un&ani%est but /ey parts in how and in what directions and in
what spirit the D23 that association in the na&e o% brotherly and sisterly love O%ro& the Gree/
philia), and relationships within it continued and developed$

It=s a well /nown %act that in the inti&ate or potentially inti&ate and o%ten e&otional
hothouse a&bience o% the relationship between therapist and patient3 love and desire &ay
develop and be acted upon3 rather than re&ain in the real& and do&ain o% that which is
considered3 interpreted and wor/ed with3 probably being seen by the therapist as a &ani%estation
o% what 8reud called trans%erence love3 andEor counter+trans%erential love and desire$ It al&ost
certainly should not be acted upon or @acted out=3 because once the relationship beco&es3 in
itsel%3 an inti&ate relationship with no li&its or boundaries constraining a %ull e9pression o% love
and desire3 the psychotherapeutic endeavour is at an end. 2nd considerable good wor/ &ay
beco&e undone3 and considerable har& &ay have been done3 whether or not the patient or
anyone else considers that what happened is a /ind o% se9ual abuse3 or an abuse o% the position
and privilege o% the therapist and an e9ploitation o% the patient$ Because o%ten when this which
ought not to happen does happen3 there is no acco&panying accusation o% e9ploitation or abuse$
It &ay be e9perienced by both parties as love3 ill+%ated or not$ The therapeutic relationship ai&s
at being a relationship between two people3 and &uch o% the wor/ o% therapy consists in stripping
away what gets in the way o% that happening3 li/e e9pectations and preconceptions3 and allowing
the spaceEti&eEconte9t %or what &ight be lac/ing to spring %orthFli/e trust %or e9a&ple$ But it=s
also a &eta+relationship3 or a relationship about relationships' about3 &ore precisely3 the
di%%iculties and proble&atics o% relatedness and relationships$ 2nd it=s e9tre&ely di%%icult3 i% not
i&possible3 %or the &eta+relational di&ensions to survive the boundary+crossing %ro& a
psychotherapeutic or counselling relationship3 which ought always to privilege the 6ther3 to the
space o% physical inti&acy between two people3 where each needs to be %ree to %ind their own
way3 and the right degree o% closeness and distance %ro& one another$

;ell3 one o% the &ale therapists in the D2 and a wo&an in therapy with hi& had gotten
into a se9ual relationship around the ti&e both thought the therapy had co&e to an end$ This was
already proble&atic3 and &any would conde&n it unconditionally as necessarily unethical
conduct$ It was3 without doubt3 unpro%essional$ I &a/e that distinction because what=s considered
unpro%essional3 in any given conte9t3 within any given set o% conventions3 &ay or &ay not be
unethical with re%erence to one=s responsibility %or the 6ther3 even %or the 6ther=s responsibility$
2nyhow3 this had happened so&e years earlier in a cli&ate3 not only in the D2 networ/3 but also
in the wider psychoanalytic and psychotherapy world3 where transgressions o% boundaries o% the
/ind involved here were probably &ore co&&on and3 rightly or wrongly3 less unconditionally
conde&ned than they are today$ The situation I=& describing in our group was %urther
co&plicated by the %act that the wo&an was hersel% a part o% the group and had3 at the ti&e3 been
in an inti&ate relationship with another person in the group$ So there you have all the ingredients
%or a pain%ul3 co&plicated and e9plosive situation3 a situation that could have e9ploded but3 in the
event3 did not$ ;hat it did do was to continue to burn slowly3 not ?uite %orgiven3 and certainly
never %orgotten$ 2ll the &ain protagonists o% that triangle continued to wor/ together with all the
others3 at varying degrees o% closeness and distance over the ne9t years3 be%ore that slow burning
in%la&ed relations within the group in a way that could not be ignored or resolved or integrated$
2nd when s/eletons are in the closet3 and begin to be &oved andEor e9posed3 people do get
rattled and ratty$ It=s a well /nown story with in%inite variations on the the&e$ 2nyhow3 the
rattling o% those bones and the contagion o% that rattling were activated by3 and resonating with3
accusations o% se9ual i&proprieties that were in play3 though not at all play%ully in play$ I thin/
Ronnie was trying to play with it and bring it all &ore into play and into the open3 but he was3 as
I=& sure he /new per%ectly well3 playing with %ire$ So the alleged se9ual i&proprieties o% one
&e&ber3 no pun intended3 in past years3 which very directly a%%ected two others in the
association and indirectly yet others3 were now resonating interactively with Ronnie=s alleged
i&proprieties o% a di%%erent order3 that is with a wo&an or wo&en in a co&&unity household
which3 in turn3 were a response to yet another %elt i&propriety o% yet again a di%%erent orderFhis
wi%e=s un%aith%ulness$ 2nd a constructive &ove I thin/ Ronnie was trying to &a/e3 though he
&ight have done it a lot &ore s/il%ully i% he wasn=t so inAured3 was to bring se9ual deceptions and
hypocrisies, and the conse$uences o% the ways we deal or %ail to deal with the&3 out into the
open. I thin/ that=s i&possible to do without at least so&e o% the people involved3 at least so&e
o% the ti&e3 %eeling that what is then going on is also3 or solely3 destructive$ 2nd the e%%ects o%
events years earlier were interacting with the then current events in #.-"+-# and would continue
to in%or& and de%or& relationships in this group %or years a%ter that3 years a%ter Ronnie had le%t
the D2 in #.-!3 and a%ter he died in #.-.$

Ste#e: I would describe Ronnie=s leaving as so&ething li/e the @death o% the %ather=
e9perience$ The group who were le%t behind could be characterised as brothers and sisters$ In
8reud=s group analysis boo/ he spea/s o% the pheno&ena o% patricide and collective guilt a&ong
the brothers$ No+one %elt able a&ong the brothers and sisters to ta/e up the place o% the %ather$
Nor was anyone %elt to be pre+e&inent$ Everyone %elt collective leadership was the appropriate
way %orward$ This is actually what happened$ The associatesFI was an associate &e&ber at the
ti&eFwere &ade &e&bers3 and then with the re&aining &e&bers governed the business o% the
Dhiladelphia 2ssociation3 as a collective3 %or over ten years$

"eon: I would say there was no ?uestion that there was one pree&inent person in that
group at that ti&e$

Ste#e: I told you though that that wasn=t the case in that group$ That wasn=t seen in that
way3 in that group$

"eon: Loo/ing bac/ on it3 can you see that nowJ

Ste#e: ;e=re now loo/ing at a history which3 i% we re+open3 we will re+open di%%erences
o% opinion o% all sorts$ 8or e9a&ple between Leon and &ysel% in ter&s o% how we would
construe these events$ ;hat I would underscore would be really two things$ Nu&ber one3 the
threat o% a public airing o% so&e o% the ways that Ronnie was behaving to the point in which
there were people in the pro%ession threatening to close the Dhiladelphia 2ssociation down3
unless Ronnie resigned$ 2nd nu&ber two3 the %act that Ronnie re%used to be ans#erable to his
colleaguesC when as/ed to e9plain hi&sel%3 he would not spea/ to his @children=F&ost o% the
people clustered around hi&$ ;e %elt we were entitled3 because o% our pro%essional status3 to hold
Ronnie accountable %or his behaviour3 which outsiders at least were seeing as potentially
scandalous$ 2nd Ronnie at that point le%t the group$ Be didn=t resign initiallyC he was going to
ta/e a year=s leave$ Be re%used to spea/ to the group about certain accusations levelled against
hi&$ Be stepped down as ChairC then so&ewhere along the line he decided to resign$

!ob: <o you want to continue the historyJ

"eon: Sure$ There are di%%erences o% opinion and o% nuances$ I don=t thin/ that &y ta/e
on it is necessarily &ore correct than yours$

Ste#e: I don=t thin/ that we di%%er on these two points$

"eon: 6:$

Ste#e: ;hen I ca&e in to the D2 I wor/ed &ost closely with Bugh Craw%ord$ 2t that ti&e
in the &id+seventies there were two epicentres in the D2$ Ronnie had a cluster o% people around
hi& and Bugh had a cluster o% people around his wor/$ 2nd whilst they were doing parallel and
reciprocal and related activities3 they had di%%erent sensibilities and approaches$ Because they
had si&ilar bac/grounds and e9periences3 and each respected and honoured the other3 Bugh
&anaged to /eep Ronnie honest$ This is a po/er analogy$ 2nd what that &eans is that so&eti&es
so&eone blu%%s in po/er3 and you have to so&eti&es call a person=s blu%%$ Now at ti&es Ronnie
would try on certain e9tre&es o% verbiage3 and this could be seen as bullying towards others3 and
Bugh would o%ten call his blu%% and stop hi&$ Be was the one person in the group o% Ronnie=s
colleagues who see&ed able to do that %or RonnieC Ronnie would hear Bugh and stop3 i% he was
going over the top$ Bugh was a very genuine %riend o% Ronnie=s3 at so&e very deep level$ Bugh
was not a very sociable person in that he didn=t socialise &uch3 but he was Ronnie=s kindred
spirityou &ight say$ Be had the %le9ibility and ?uic/ness o% &ind and generosity o% spirit that
were a &atch %or Ronnie$

"eon: 2nd a ?uic/+witted and good sense o% hu&our$

Ste#e: E9actly$ 2ll o% that$

"eon: 2nd irony$ 2nd scepticis&$

Ste#e: So what I wanted to say is when Bugh died3 unti&elyFin a sense he died ?uite
young3 he was under si9ty3 %i%ty+seven3 so&ething li/e thatFo% a heart attac/3 and it=s a story in
itsel%3 which I won=t go into really3 e9cept to say that Bugh=s heart was so totally in everything he
did that he &ight have worn it out$ So he went young3 and I thin/ he e9pected to in a way$ So %or
Ronnie it was not only the split %ro& >utta which happened3 but I thin/ it was also a very deep
blow to Ronnie to lose Bugh3 and certainly a very deep blow to the Dhiladelphia 2ssociation$
Because that &eant that there wasn=t really a way to /ind o% really hold Ronnie3 in the way that
so&eti&es he could be e9cessive$ 2nd this was particularly at a ti&e when3 because he was
wounded3 he could ra&page3 and be a danger to hi&sel%3 and this was a proble& %or the D2 at
that ti&e$ So&eti&es we=d Ao/e about the D2 being an asylu! for its !e!bers, but the D2 %ailed
to be an asylu& %or Ronnie$

"eon: So&e o% us were trying to be an asylu& %or Ronnie3 but it was very di%%icult and
we weren=t ?uite up to it3 butF

Ste#e: But the loss o% Bugh was signi%icant in it$

"eon: I=& spea/ing about once Bugh was gone$

Ste#e: Ieah3 once Bugh was gone3 then it wasF$

"eon: It=s true3 Bugh=s heart+attac/ and subse?uent death were a blow to Ronnie$ Beart
%ailure3 si9 &onths to a year be%ore Ronnie=s crisis$ ;ell anyhow3 this group that separated itsel%
%ro& Ronnie because o% %inding his behaviour unacceptableF

!ob: Bis alleged behaviour3 or his behaviourJ

Ste#e: 2lleged behaviour3 and behaviour$

"eon: Both$ So&e o% the things that were said about hi&3 as %ar as I /now3 were untrue$ I
thin/ the attribution o% rape was ?uite &ista/en3 ?uite %alse$ But when Chris brought it up3 he
wasn=t &a/ing it up or acting &aliciously$ So&e people were saying that had happened$ I thin/
what they &ay have been tal/ing about in saying that was that one or several wo&en he
approached &ay have %elt bullied or pressured by hi&$

Ste#e: I don=t thin/ that anyone thought that was true$

"eon: But so&eone charged hi& with it$

Ste#e: I thin/ there &ight have been so&e relations with so&e o% the residents in the
house which had se9ual overtones$

"eon: I /now %irst+hand that he did spea/ to at least one wo&an in one o% the houses
about having a se9ual relationship$ I was there$ 2nd she Aust &ade it clear that she wasn=t
interested3 and that was that$ I don=t say that she wasn=t troubled by it3 but she didn=t have any
di%%iculty saying @no=$ 2nd he didn=t have any di%%iculty accepting her @no=3 though he tried to
persuade her otherwise$ 2nd I would not say that on that occasion it was a &atter o% either
unbridled lust or aggression$ It was not without conveying to her that she was attractive and
desirable3 so&ething that particular wo&an3 at that ti&e3 did not believe$

Ste#e: But this is an anathe&a3 a boundary crossing3 which people in this pro%ession are
particularly sensitive to3 since it &ight create a scandal and bring the pro%ession into disrepute$

"eon: There was so&e $uestion as to whether or not it was a boundary crossingC it was
not #""X obvious to everyone concerned that that was so$ The people in the house were not seen
as patients3 they were seen as residents o% the household3 and these people weren=t in
psychotherapy with Ronnie$

Ste#e: No3 but one would have to assu&e that because they were part o% the D23 there
was3 whatever people &ean by the idea o% trans%erence3 an idealisation o% Ronnie happening$
Thus it would have been an abuse o% his power i% Ronnie had @had it o%%= with any o% the
residents$

"eon: 2 trans%erence isn=t necessarily an idealisation$

Ste#e: No$ ;ell I thin/ it &eans a distortion3 o% so&e sort$

"eon: 2n idealisation &ight be part o% it$ Most people were agreed that se9 was a @no+
no=C this was o%%$ But Ronnie was pushing at the li&its$ 2nyhow3 as %or this other group %or&ing
or splitting o%%3 it was a way o% distancing the&selves %ro& Ronnie and these goings+on$ They
increasingly beca&e a psychoanalytic psychotherapy training group$ @Their= D23 the D2 they
wanted to &a/e their &ar/ in and leave their &ar/ on3 was a psychoanalytic psychotherapy
training organisation3 with &ore o% a set policy o% &aintaining the /inds o% boundaries I was
spea/ing o%C though it=s co&&on /nowledge that the espousal o% policy3 rules3 regulations and
the li/e does not guarantee good conduct3 goodness or a wise course o% action$

I ca&e bac/ to wanting to teach with the Dhiladelphia 2ssociation several years a%ter this
split$ By this ti&e Ronnie had resigned3 8rancis had resigned3 and I was %eeling that I=d li/e to
have so&e a%%iliation with so&e colleagues3 and these were the only colleagues I=d had in this
country3 so I decided to go bac/ in$ ;ell it wasn=t easy3 as I wasn=t welco&ed bac/ in$ I had to
%ight &y way bac/ in$ So&e disapproved o% &y not Audging and conde&ning Ronnie and not
distancing &ysel% %ro& hi& as they had$ 2nd at that ti&e I went around to spea/ to you3 Steve3 to
>ohn Beaton and to >ohn Gordon and won the support o% each o% you$ Chris 6a/ley at a crucial
Auncture supported &y return and the @opposition= collapsed$ I only slowly ca&e to realise3 once I
returned3 how very &uch the Dhiladelphia 2ssociation now aspired to beco&e and was on its
way to beco&ing a pro%essional organisation3 pri&arily a psychoanalytic psychotherapy training
organisation3 and that although it still had a philosophical criti?ue o% psychoanalysis via
pheno&enology and other philosophical traditions3 that now had less o% a place than it had
be%ore$

Ste#e: It was sidelined$

"eon: It was sidelined$ I &ean the way I=ve co&e to e9press it over the last %ive years or
so is that i% you are sincerely and seriously ?uestioning so&ething3 you cannot3 in advance o% the
?uestioning3 privilege what is ?uestioned over that which is ?uestioning it$ I% psychoanalysis is
being ?uestioned by sceptical3 pheno&enological or ethical thin/ing3 it &ust not have a
privileged place over and beyond the ?uestioning$ But this is what had happened$ There=s no
?uestion that psychoanalytic psychotherapy had a privileged place over and beyond any
?uestioning$ 2nd this was later to beco&e even &ore so when the registration body3 the 4:CD3
ca&e into being3 and re?uired organisations to declare what @section= they were in3 so that the D2
was deter&ined to be @psychoanalytic=$

Ste#e: Kuestioning beca&e &ore o% a veneer$

"eon: Ies3 and &atters directly relating to spiritual traditions3 East or ;est3 >udaeo+
Christian3 Buddhist3 Taoist3 etceteras were even &ore sidelinedC they were so peripheral as to be
F

Ste#e: Dretty &uch eli&inated$

"eon: They were virtually eli&inated$ The writings o% Laing were practically eli&inated
by then too3 and all the &ore so any serious engage&ent with yoga3 &editation3 and engage&ent
with the arts$ once I was bac/ in I began introducing so&e o% this again as best I could3 but I
thin/ &y a%%iliation with Laing3 the history o% &y place in the split3 and the %act that what I
considered i&portant wasn=t what the others considered i&portant3 contributed to &y being
&arginalised$

Ste#e: I thin/ that at this stage in the story there=s a side+story3 which is your relationship
with &e3 and &y relationship with you3 in ter&s o% our discussions over sharing and %inding
shared co&&on interests with regard to Buddhist te9ts which you were reading3 with the te9ts o%
<errida and Levinas that I was reading3 and %inding a lot o% a%%inity that we %elt co&ing %ro&
these rather di%%erent places3 and starting a @tea&= in which we then %ound ourselves dialoguing
and doing tea& teaching and wor/ing a lot together$

"eon: It=s the history o% the occasion o% our sitting here tal/ing together today$ Drobably
so&ewhere in the &id+eighties is when we began conversations3 starting with NagarAuna3 a %irst
century Indian Buddhist philosopher3 and other Buddhist te9ts$ ;e were loo/ing at the
relationship between Buddhist deconstruction and <erridian deconstruction3 and also beginning
to consider the a%%inities between the Bodhisattva Oan awa/ened being in the Mahayana Buddhist
traditionP path3 and co&passion3 and the Levinasian ethic o% responsibility %or the other3 and
indeed such ethics as constituting a basis %or philosophy$ The Bodhisattva vows not to see/ or
accept %inal release %ro& the cycle o% birth and death until he or she can ta/e all other sentient
beings with hi& or hersel% %irst$ 6ne defers one=s own liberation until all are liberated$ 6r one
considers that one cannot be ulti!ately liberated so long as others, with who& I co.e&ist in our
inter.bein", are cau"ht in greed3 anger3 delusion3 attach&ent and hence the sufferin" arising %ro&
all that$ ;e began to read and understand the
Levinasian ethics o% responsibility3 o% putting the 6ther %irst3 and Buddhist teachings3
each in a way that we %elt in%or&ed and enriched the other$

!ob: <on=t lose trac/ o% the D2 storyF

Ste#e: ;ell this is ulti&ately then the story o% the D2 in that when Leon and I see&ed to
%ind ourselves in a position whereF

"eon: ;e were toleratedF

Ste#e: ;e beca&e &ore o% an ele&ent within the D2$

"eon: ;e were tolerated3 but we were at the &argins3 even though we were both on the
training co&&ittee$ ;e were teaching and would o%ten tea& up to give se&inars3 and we
introduced spending a whole wee/end with students3 which is so&ethingF

Ste#e: 6%ten students would say that they %ound that it was rather di%%erent %ro& what
had been going on %or the&3 but that they %ound thatF

"eon: Re%reshing$ The at&osphere o% the D2 at that ti&e had beco&e ?uite %raught$ Now
there had been ti&es in years be%ore when so&e people3 including &ysel% at ti&es3 were uneasy
spea/ing with Ronnie present$ Bis responses could be unnervingH But generally there was a
sense that the D2 was a place %or %ree speechF

Ste#e: ;ell3 yes and no$ There was a place that one could spea/3 but also with the
awareness that one was always only being given enough rope$

"eon: To hang onesel% withF

Ste#e: 2nd there was o%ten the ?uestion that people would %ind the&selves @hanging
the&selves=3 and being seen to have @hanged the&selves=3 and in a very abrupt way actually
sha&ed3 and not actually co&ing bac/$ So that it was really very &uch a ?uestion o% who could
be in the sa&e roo& with one another$

"eon: So there was so&ething o% that while Ronnie and Bugh were holding court as it
were$ It too/ on a so&ewhat di%%erent %eel and tone a%ter Ronnie=s departure$ So&e people started
thin/ing that they %kne#. The at&osphere in the student group3 when Steve and I started tea&ing
up giving se&inars together3 was tense$ Students were unco&%ortable spea/ing3 wary$ So&ething
o% %ree speech within the student group had been co&pro&ised$ Now by this ti&e there was a
new ele&ent in the group' so&e wo&en who were &ilitant %e&inists3 including several who
ca&e to be %airly well+/nown and respected as lesbian %e&inist authors and spea/ers by the early
nineties$ This introduced a new political ele&ent into the group$

Ste#e: 2nd a version o% so&ething that I thin/ one would interpret as political
correctness. 2lthough it is true that historically3 as when I %irst ca&e3 the D2 was very &ale and
very white3 it never operated an e9clusion policy$

"eon: ;ell the D2 didn=t discri&inate against anyone because o% their se9uality3 and it
was one o% the %ew3 i% not the only3 psychoanalytic psychotherapy group %or a while that didn=t$
Naturally there%ore gays and lesbians who were interested in psychoanalytic psychotherapy ca&e
to the D2$ 2nd so&e lesbian %e&inists began in%or&ally to %or& the&selves as a group3 or %ound
the&selves at the core o% a new grouping3 and as the years went by3 into the late eighties and
early nineties3 beca&e a &ore power%ul group and see&ed to be %or&ing also3 into the early
nineties3 an alliance with the person who was in a way the in%or&al Chair o% this chairless D2$
This person was seen by &ost others as the /ey person in the group in ter&s o% organisational
/now+how and political action in the D2 and within the 4:CD

Ste#e: The /ey decision+&a/er$

"eon: 2nyhow3 as we &oved %ro& the late #.-"=s into the #.."=s3 there see&ed to have
developed within the group a certain insistence by so&e on a political agenda centred around gay
and %e&inist issues and including concerns with other &inority rights as well$ This beca&e
e9pressed in increasingly strident tones$ But those concerns didnt see& to address the
di%%erences and singularities o% each and every other 6ther$

Easy conversation and e9pression between &any o% us see&ed to have been a casualty o%
the turn away %ro& @Laing= and toward politics$ 2n at&osphere in the Dhiladelphia 2ssociation
was developing that see&ed to be very %ar %ro& our na&esa/e3 that is %ro& philia as brotherly or
sisterly love3 or indeed %ro& the &otto o% the Dhiladelphia 2ssociation when it was %irst started3
ta/en %ro& Revelations3 chapter ,3 I thin/ the eighth passage3 which reads QI have set be%ore thee
an open doorFR 2nd the i&portance o% there being a spiritual intention and di&ension to our
association was largely ignored3 dis&issed or gently &oc/ed$

Ste#e: ;hat &ade it i&possible %or &e to continue to go to Dhiladelphia 2ssociation
&eetings was an at&osphere and a cli&ate which see&ed to be antithetical to what the D2 was
on about$ In the past people would side on issues based upon their own lights3 and each issue was
decided on a case+by+case basis3 and people were not part o% a pre+progra&&ed political agenda
with a plat%or& and &eetings in advance that already deter&ined the issues3 and then a bloc/
vote$ But there was a /ind o% &ob rule3 or a sense o% !ob rule. This was the at&osphere that had
developed$ Deople who %elt that we needed to &ove in the direction o% a politically correct
oriented group and were advocating a plat%or&3 a political agenda3 saw us as the old guard who
wouldn=t let go o% control$

"eon: I should say that I stopped going to any &eetings o% the organisation as such in
#.-.3 whereas Steve continued going until #..0 or @.($ I=d stopped over the issue o% the &a/ing
o% new &e&bers$ There was one3 and only one3 new &e&ber being considered$ I obAected to us
&a/ing hi& a &e&ber3 at that ti&e3 %or two reasons$ The %irst was personal$ The second was that
I %elt that he was being invited to be a &e&ber3 not because the other &e&bers thought and %elt
that we were sharing a co&&on sensibility and sensitivity3 and a spiritual direction and practice3
but rather because this person had in a sense put in ti&e and done organisational wor/$ I obAected
to what I too/ to be a lac/ o% thought%ulness about what it &eant to be a &e&ber and to increase
our &e&bership3 and a lac/ o% consideration %or the obAections o% another &e&ber3 who
happened to be &e$ My obAections and &y ?uestioning were not ta/en seriously enough to
postpone this election$

Ste#e: 2nd there was an at&osphere o% people not listening to one another$

"eon: That was in >uly #.-.$ In 2ugust3 in the 2ustrian 2lps3 I wrote a letter one night to
&y D2 colleagues which was couched in &etaphors o% death3 suspending &y participation in the
D2 organisation3 e9cept %or the training co&&ittee and teaching$ I then sat in &ediation through
the night3 and had a &ost unusual drea& in the &orningFthe one I wrote about in 6.). Lain"4
8reative )estroyer OCassell3 London #..(3 ed$ Bob MullanPFwhich included Ronnie having
said that there was so&ething wrong with &y breathin" andEor &editation practiceC &y going to
where Ronnie was spea/ing but not !eetin" upC %takin" !y leave o% Ronnie at a railway
ter&inalC and3 still in the drea&3 being unable to &ove or call out while stuc/ on a trac/ at the
railway ter&inal and wondering i% I was having a stro/e$ It was a great relief to #ake up@ 2nd
later that day Ronnie in %act died$ So there was this strange con%luence o% events3 so&e o% which
were' &y writing a letter suspending &y participation in the D23 which had its history in the
earlier 3A split #ith 6onnie, the letter couched in !etaphors of death= &y drea& o% takin" !y
leave o% RonnieC the leave+ta/ing ta/ing place at a railway ter!inal, &y thin/ing I could be
having a @ ter!inal stro/eC and Ronnie=s sudden death %ro& a heart attack about seven or eight
hours later$ ;ell3 I circulated the letter a%ter Ronnie=s %uneral3 and I stopped going to &eetings at
that ti&e$

So&eti&e in #..0 I got a call %ro& one o% the &e&bers o% the D2 as/ing &e i% the eleven
%ull &e&bers o% the D23 o% which I was one3 could &eet at &y house$ There hadn=t been a
&eeting o% Aust the &e&bers o% the D2 %or &any years$ There had only been Aoint &eetings o% all
the &e&bers3 with the larger group o% associate &e&bers$ 2ll those who=d ?uali%ied as
psychotherapists with us were &ade associates3 but &e&bership in the association3 which was a
registered charity3 was by election o% the &e&bers$ I=d never gone to those &eetings$ But various
people had been telling &e that these &eetings were terrible' people weren=t listening to one
anotherC people who tried to ?uestion the unelected political leadership3 or those with an insistent
rhetoric3 at these &eetings were &ade to %eel that they were doing so&ething unacceptable3
hostile3 even outrageousC certain /inds o% ?uestioning3 or putting others in ?uestion3 were %raught
with very unpleasant conse?uences$

Ste#e: They were dis&issed$

"eon: So the &e&bers as/ed to &eet at &y house3 which they did3 and then began doing
this on a &onthly basis$ 6ut o% these &eetings3 at the end o% #..0 and going into the beginning
o% #..(3 there were discussions about whether we should have a chair&an in this group3 because
there hadn=t been a chair&an since Ronnie resigned his Chair$ There had been this e&pty Chair$
Now it was Steve particularly who said that he thought that we really needed a chair&an3 and
so&e structure and so&e %air play3 which a Chair &ight introduce$ I thin/ the others were slow to
agree with you3 but then gradually people did3 with the e9ception o% Chris3 who consistently %elt
it was a bad idea$ 2nd then I was elected Chair3 probably because I was already chairing the
&eeting because it was at &y house3 and people at that ti&e %elt3 rightly or wrongly3 that I was
able to listen to the others3 and %oster so&e at&osphere which encouraged others to listen$

Ste#e: 2nd you didn=t have a side either that you were on$ Iou had no particular side$

"eon: I wasn=t ta/ing sides3 but I was certainly not indi%%erent to what was going on$

Ste#e: I &ean you were %or %airness3 and that &eant honouring people=s di%%erences3 and
allowing these di%%erences to be heard and registered3 and %or so&e /ind o% way o% then &a/ing
decisions that would be inclusive3 rather than based on power and do&ination o% one %action over
another$

"eon: ;ell things ca&e to a crunch$ >ohn Gordon was a psychiatrist and psychotherapist
who used to be a &e&ber o% the D23 who had lived in a house with Bugh Craw%ord and Steve$ I
don=t /now i% he lived there at the sa&e ti&e you did3 but he lived in the sa&eF

Ste#e: It was the second house3 nu&ber 0"$

"eon: Be lived in one o% Bugh Craw%ord=s co&&unity households with his %a&ily3 Aust
as Steve had lived with his %a&ily so&e years be%ore$ Now >ohn Gordon3 when I %irst &et hi&3
was a psychiatrist in the Royal Navy3 which he was leaving3 and was wanting to train as a
psychotherapist with the Dhiladelphia 2ssociation3 which he then did3 while living in a D2
household with his wi%e and /ids$ 2nd in the eighties3 %ollowing his election to %ull &e&bership
o% the D2 by the group that had separated itsel% %ro& Ronnie and identi%ied the&selves as
psychoanalysts3 he see&ed to beco&e &ore actively involved with his Christian roots3 and
beca&e a &ore engaged Christian than he had been3 beco&ing in %act a lay preacher in his
Church$ Be beca&e &ore o% a %unda&entalist$ Truth3 as he understood it3 was the truth as
revealed by God and >esus in the Bible3 and real healing too/ place through belie% in and the
ta/ing to heart o% the teachings o% >esus Christ as &ediated to us in the Bible$ So&eti&e in the
&id+eighties several D2 &e&bers heard hi& saying so&e o% these things in a tal/ to another
psychotherapy group$ They beca&e concerned that people &ight identi%y his views with the
Dhiladelphia 2ssociation$ There was a discussion about this at a D2 &eeting3 and it was agreed
that he would be as/ed to resign3 in a %riendly way3 as there see&ed to be a parting o% the ways i%
he really did believe that there was an absolute truth3 to be %ound only in the person and teaching
o% >esus Christ3 and that real healing too/ place only by ta/ing >esus Christ into your heart$ Be
readily agreed to resign3 saying that he had thought initially that Ronnie Owho had resigned %ro&
the D2 several years earlierP was part o% or tuned into a spiritual tradition that was si&ilar to his3
but he now realised that Ronnie=s path wasn=t Christian enough3 so he agreed to a parting o% the
ways3 with no hard %eelings$ Now at the end o% #..03 about ten years later3 a letter arrived %ro&
>ohn to the D2$ Be was now wor/ing as a psychiatrist in the prison service in the north o%
England3 near his ho&e town3 and was about to ta/e a new Aob in the south and get a change in
Aob description %ro& psychiatrist to psychotherapist$ Because o% that he wanted to be registered
with the 4:CD as a psychotherapist3 and the usual practice was to get registered with the group
that one had ?uali%ied with which3 %or hi&3 was the Dhiladelphia 2ssociation$ Be had already
been a &edically ?uali%ied psychiatrist when he ca&e to us3 and had co&pleted his training as a
psychotherapist with us$ But he was no longer a &e&ber o% the Dhiladelphia 2ssociation$ Now in
order to be registered with the D2 the rules o% the ga&e at that ti&e were that he had to be at least
an associate &e&ber o% the D2$ By this ti&e3 anyone ?uali%ying with the D2 as a psychotherapist
was &ade an associate &e&ber3 and put on the D2=s register o% therapists with the 4:CD So
basically he was as/ing to be an associate &e&ber o% the organisation he had once been a
&e&ber o%3 be%ore leaving voluntarily3 as re?uested3 over an issue unrelated to any criticis& o%
his actual pro%essional wor/3 as no one had even suggested that his wor/ with patients was in any
way co&pro&ised or open to criticis& any &ore than anyone else=s$

Ste#e: >ohn as/ed to be reinstated within the D2$

"eon: Be as/ed to be reinstated3 although not as a %ull &e&ber3 so he could be a D2
4:CD registered psychotherapist$ This re?uest aroused passionate opposition$

The D2 had beco&e in e%%ect a psychoanalytic psychotherapy training organisation3 but
the %act was it was still a charitable organisation concerned with &ental su%%ering3 and its legal3
and to &y &ind3 spiritual &andate was not especially concerned with @psychotherapy= at all3
psychoanalytic or otherwise$ Now a lot o% the people who had graduated and ?uali%ied as
psychotherapists with us were associate &e&bers and wanted to beco&e &e&bers$ There was no
clear policy about who would be elected to &e&bership$ Traditionally3 &e&bers had invited to
&e&bership those people who& they %elt in association #ith by virtue o% sharin" a sensibility
and co&&it&ent as regards the ai&s o% the charity$ But no new &e&bers had been elected %or
seven years or &ore$
Now at the ti&e &any associates were aligned with a lesbian and %e&inist %action which
so&e o% us3 including so&e o% the gay &e&bers o% the group3 %elt was %ostering an at&osphere
that was uncongenial3 unconvivial and that %ar %ro& inviting open discussion and ?uestioning3
see&ed to have the opposite e%%ectFat least to those not within that group$ Most o% the& were
%eeling disen%ranchised$ So the idea o% bringing in anyone %ro& outside the group3 even as an
associate &e&ber3 was a hot potato$ 2nd here was this guy who &ight be invited to reAoin who
&ight3 as a %unda&entalist Christian3 have views and belie%s very di%%erent %ro& those o% so&e o%
the %e&inists3 gays or lesbians in the group$
So >ohn wanted to be registered as a psychotherapist$ Now at that ti&e I was Chair&an o%
the training co&&ittee$ ;hen I read >ohn=s re?uest to be registered with us3 I thought we ought
to respond a%%ir&atively$ 2t the ti&e he had agreed to resign there was no registration %or
psychotherapists$ But now there was the 4:CD preparing to serve as the legal registration body$
>ohn=s livelihood &ight be at sta/e3 and he had every right to register with us because he had
?uali%ied with us3 %air and s?uare$

Ste#e: 2nd he couldn=t really be denied on religious grounds3 because we would be liable
to be sued$

"eon: ;ell I had no desire toF

Ste#e: No3 but I=& saying even i% people did want to$

"eon: I thought this shouldn=t re?uire &uch discussion$ 6% course he had a right to be
registered with us3 he=d ?uali%ied3 but clearly it was going to be a political issue$ So I circulated
a&ong the co&&ittee &e&bers a correspondence that I=d had with hi& and an article he=d
written %or the prison service Aournal3 one inspired by Ronnie=s wor/ that was relevant to
wor/ing with and relating to people in &ental distress$ The article was clear3 written %ro& the
heart3 and probably a breath o% %resh air within that institution$ 2nd I invited hi& to co&e down
to London to a &eeting o% the training co&&ittee$

Be ca&e down3 see&ing not at all at ease as he entered a roo& with seven people who
were there to decide3 or at least reco&&end3 whether he should be put on our register$ Be
probably gathered that it could be a di%%icult &eeting$ 2%ter greetings and introductions3 as not
everyone had &et hi& be%ore and those who had hadn=t seen hi& in &any years3 he was ?uic/ly
as/ed what his %unda&ental %irst principles and belie%s were3 or what he too/ to be the truth or on
the way o% or to the truthFso&ething li/e that$ Be said that he started %ro& and too/ the truth to
be that which was revealed by God and >esus3 through the Bible$ Then another co&&ittee
&e&ber as/ed hi&' Q;hat would you do i% a wo&an ca&e to you wanting an abortionJR Be said
he would re%er her to so&eone else$ ;ithout any ?uestioning or co&&enting on his response to
the %irst ?uestion3 the sa&e person %ollowed with' Q;hat would you do i% a gay couple ca&e to
you wanting to adopt a childJR Be replied' QI=d re%er the& to so&eone elseR$

Now as %ar as I was concerned this was per%ectly 6:$ I% a devout Catholic gynaecologist
wor/ing in the National Bealth Service had a wo&an co&ing to hi& wanting an abortion3 he=d
li/ely re%er her to a colleague3 perhaps saying so&ething li/e' QI=& sorry3 I can=t deal with this as
abortion is against &y religious belie%sC I thin/ it=s wrong %ro& the religious teachings I %ollow3
but that shouldn=t bias your re?uest$ I=& going to re%er you to a colleague who doesn=t have that
bias and who=ll &a/e a decision on &edical grounds3 as you have every right to e9pect$R I later
as/ed a Basidic >ewish physician and psychoanalyst %riend o% &ine what he thought o% >ohn=s
response$ Be thought it was per%ectly correct and that it was what he would have said in that
situation too$ But that evening3 when >ohn le%t the roo&3 so&e o% the &e&bers o% the training
co&&ittee %elt that we couldn=t allow this guy to register with us$ They thought his re+ad&ission
to the organisation would be o%%ensive to wo&en and ho&ose9uals in our group$ They saw his
wanting to re%er a wo&an wanting an abortion3 or a gay couple3 to so&eone else was tanta&ount
to re%using treat&ent$ I% we were to accept hi& onto our register o% psychotherapists it would3
they insisted3 be analogous to accepting a neo+NaGi co&ing into our group3 so&eone who re%used
to treat >ews$ ;ell3 I thought that analogy was way o%%3 that there was no way this guy was li/e
any /ind o% NaGi$ Be was a Christian with %unda&entalist belie%s3 a /ind and gentle soul3 and
well /nown to &any in our group$ Be=d lived with his %a&ily in one o% our places o% asylu& and
re%uge3 where he was a valued &e&ber o% the co&&unity and3 as a ho&eopathic physician3 he=d
treated <r Bugh Craw%ord3 our late and estee&ed colleague3 during Bugh=s last &onths
%ollowing his heart attac/$ 2nd in %act it turns out that there=s a wo&an in our networ/ who had
been in psychotherapy with hi& when she was going through an abortion3 and later said that he
had been e9tre&ely help%ul to her3 helped her through that di%%icult ti&e$ Bis religious belie%s and
convictions didn=t inter%ere with that$ The NaGi analogy was an i&passioned but biGarre
response$ Let=s say a neo+NaGi so&ehow did %ind his way into our group3 which3 o% course would
have been virtually unthin/able3 and re%used to treat >ews$ ;ell3 I would certainly hope any such
character practising @psychotherapy= wouldn=t @treat= >ewsFor anyone else %or that &atterH But
what >ew in his right &ind would want to be treated by a NaGiJ ;ell3 6:3 &aybe the >ew in
?uestion is craGy3 &asochistic or ignorant enough to want to be treated by that person$ But it=s a
weird analogy$

!ob: It=s childish3 really$

"eon: ;e too/ a vote3 and there were seven o% us$ Three o% us voted @yes=3 two @no=3 and
two abstained$ That was it$ Now as
Chair o% that co&&ittee I had the right to say that we had decided in >ohn=s %avour$ But I
thought and said that as this was so controversial I=d bring it to a &eeting o% the &e&bers$

Now bringing it to a &eeting o% the &e&bers was itsel% seen as controversial by &any o%
the associate &e&bers$ They %elt that a &eeting o% all the &e&bers and associatesFwhere they
would be a &aAorityFwould be &ore de&ocratic$ By this ti&e the &e&bers had decided to
suspend the &eetings o% &e&bers and associates which had been going on %or several years3
since &ost o% the &e&bers who had been attending the& couldn=t stand the&$ They %elt that that
larger bodyFwhich actually had no decision+&a/ing powers according to our 2rticles o%
2ssociation o% the Charity3 but which had in %act been &a/ing &aAor decisions %or so&e years3
?uite i&properly soFhad beco&e rather de&agogic$ 2 core group with an insistent agenda and
rhetoric see&ed not ta/e /indly to dissent3 and didn=t see& to want3 or be able3 to %oster
thought%ul3 convivial discussion at &eetings$ Now as I=ve said3 I hadn=t been to D2 &e&bers and
associates &eetings %or years3 and &y co&&ents are based on what those who couldn=t stand
the& told &e3 but I heard enough on other occasions to /now so&ething o% what they were
tal/ing about$ They %elt3 at that ti&e3 that there was a de facto alliance between that group and the
D2 &e&ber who3 up to that point3 had been the &ost politically active and usually politically
e%%ective person in the D2 and in the registration organisation$ So&e gay guys see&ed to be part
o% that alliance3 though not with &uch discernible enthusias&$ 6ther gay &en were saddened
andEor angered by that develop&ent$

The D2 had not discri&inated against anyone on the basis o% race3 on the basis o% se9 or
se9uality3 on the basis o% ethnic bac/ground3 or on the basis o% anything else li/e that3 which
partly e9plains why we had a large nu&ber o% gay and lesbian people in our group3 though it
doesn=t e9plain why we were predo&inantly @white=3 European and North 2&erican$ I had never
thought o% the& as a @The&=$ But so&e o% the& see&ed to have constituted the&selves as such$
2nd now so&e o% these people3 and those aligned with the&3 were wanting to e9clude so&eone
because o% his religious belie%s$ That see&ed plainly wrong3 un%air and ungenerous$ I thought a
&eeting o% the &e&bers had the legal right and the responsibility to decide on this &atter3 and
could be e9pected to &a/e a decision that was based on %air play and Austice$

I wanted to bring the &atter to a head and not de%er or %udge the issue$ By then3 so&e
people were warning &e i% I did that3 all hell could brea/ loose$ I thought that we=d be living in a
hell i% we discri&inated against so&eone on a basis which I saw as genuinely bigoted3
discri&inatory and preAudiced3 and thought that there was no way that we should even consider
saying @no= to so&eone when all he was as/ing was %or us to act on the truth o% the %act that he
did ?uali%y with us$ ;ell3 it ca&e to a vote at a &e&bers= &eeting$ There were two things co&ing
to a vote that night and clearly it was a very political &o&ent$ The second vote o% the &eeting
was going to be whether we accept >ohn as an associate &e&ber o% the Dhiladelphia 2ssociation3
thus enabling hi& to register as a psychotherapist with us on the 4:CD register$ 2nd the %irst
vote was going to be whether or not we were going to &a/e a slate o% people &e&bersFa slate
co&posed o% all the people who had ?uali%ied as psychotherapists at least %ive years earlier$ 2
three+?uarters &aAority was re?uired %or a @yes= vote$ Now this would have been a vote %or
bureaucracy$ It would have e%%ectively &eant choosing &e&bers3 who elect the trustees o% the
charity3 %ro& a pool o% people who are only psychotherapists$ ;e wouldn=t be selecting people
individually on &erit or shared sensibility3 but only by their having success%ully ?uali%ied as a
therapist so&e years earlier$ It would have e%%ectively &ade o%%icial and irreversible the turning
away o% the D2 %ro& its once radical and diverse roots to &erely a pro%essional psychotherapy
training association and guild$ 2nd i% we had gone that route3 the group with their political
agenda3 rhetoric andFto those outside that groupFintolerance and lac/ o% conviviality and
hu&our3 would co&e into ascendancy %airly soon by a co&bination o% nu&bers and by virtue o%
their /ind o% &ilitancy3 as well as having the sto&ach %or &ore and &ore &eetings$ ;hereas
so&e o% the rest o% us3 i% that happened3 would Aust disappear$ I was warned that pushing %or a
vote on >ohn would be provocative3 and that not electing this slate would be as well$ But I %elt
that i% it was provocative3 %air enough3 becauseF

!ob: Iou wanted to do the right thingH

"eon: ;ell3 a nu&ber o% us %elt that Aust to &a/e people &e&bers because they had
?uali%ied as psychotherapists %or so&e period o% ti&e was to change the whole basis o% the
organisationF

Ste#e: TraditionF

"eon:Fas an association o% people #ho #anted to be associated, and the $uestions Steve
and I were as/ing &ore o%ten and &ore insistently and were wanting people to consider were'
what is it that we were associated in the na!e of1 To#ards #hat was our association intended,
and for the sake of #hat1 It see&ed to us that the heart of the !atter, which we thought we all
had &ore o% a sense o% years be%ore3 was being lost$

In ter&s o% >ohn3 although none o% us shared his particular religious views3 &ost o% us %elt
he had a right to have the&$ 2nd that i% anyone had a co&plaint about his practice, they could
lodge a co&plaint which we would be obliged to listen to3 and #ould listen to care%ully and
%airly$ But no+one /new o% any co&plaint &ade against >ohn and3 as a &atter o% %act3 he was
wor/ing as a psychiatrist in the prison syste& with people o% all di%%erent religions and races and
ethnic bac/grounds and se9ualities3 and believers or non+believers in this or that god$ I happen to
/now a wo&an who is a devout Buddhist3 pro&inent in Buddhist circles3 who=d had a psychotic
episode once and landed in a hospital where >ohn had been her attending psychiatrist$ 2nd
although his tal/ing to her o% his %unda&entalist Christian outloo/ annoyed her3 she said she
couldn=t have &ade it through that e9perience without his help$ She thought he was a %ine &an
and %ine psychiatrist3 and although she obviously didn=t share his Christian belie%s3 she %elt he=d
been very supportive and help%ul3 and she had a lot o% ti&e %or hi&$ ;hen she heard what was
happening in the D23 she said QDlease send hi& &y loveR$

Ste#e: I thin/ a point needs to be &ade at this Auncture$ I% you start to get into the
business o% vetting people=s belie% syste&s as to whether or not they are eligible to practise
psychotherapy3 you=re in trouble$

"eon: It=s the thou"ht police@

Ste#e: This is a very3 very slippery dangerous slope all the way to a %ascist and dictatorial
situation$

"eon: 2ny pressure to constrain thought%ul and %ree speech and the opening out o%
conversations on #hat !atters to us is dangerous$ I% we haven=t %igured that out a%ter our
e9periences o% the twentieth century3 we=re in big trouble$

Ste#e: This shows the di%%iculty o% liberalis&$ Everyone is invited in an inclusive
approach3 but you will include people who &ight be very e9clusive$ 2nd they &ight want to
e9clude people who are liberal3 the very ones who brought the& in in the %irst place$

!ob: 6% course$

Ste#e: So we are living through well trodden paths in ter&s o% social theory3 political
theory3 and co&&on e9perience$ This is not only happening in the D2$ My guess is &any
acade&ic depart&ents in the ;estern world are having these battles and disputes3 clashes and
con%rontations over3 %or e9a&ple3 political correctness$

"eon: I agree with Steve=s co&&ent about liberalis&$ Most o% us3 up to that point3 hadF

Ste#e:Fhad ta/en it %or grantedF

"eon:Fand were slow to realise that there was a grouping o% people who see&ed &ore
intent on suppressing dissent than in %ostering %ree thin/ing and conversation$ 2nd intent on
getting e%%ective control o% the organisation3 as a psychoanalytic psychotherapy training
organisation$ 6ne heterose9ual guy in the group had said at a &eeting that he saw the %uture o%
the D2 as led by Din/ Dower$ Be said this with acceptance and see&ing approval as he nodded
his head toward one o% its %e&inist lieutenants$ I thin/ he saw a &ore creative potential there and
was naive with regard to the political i&plications$

Ste#e: Neither did everyone who happened to have that se9ual orientation include
the&selves in this ca&p$

"eon: No3 not everyone did$ Than/%ully there were so&e gay guys who did not go along
with that$ 2nd they were in a very tough position because a lot o% their %riends were with that
%action3 and they %elt torn$ They couldn=t go along with it3 but at the sa&e ti&e %riendships were
being rendered$
6:3 so at this &eeting the slate to &a/e all therapists &e&bers3 %ive years or &ore post
?uali%ying3 was de%eated$ Then >ohn was elected an associate &e&ber by &aAority voteC this
ti&e3 by a &ore convincing &aAority than at the training co&&ittee &eeting$

Ste#e: Seven to three$

"eon: Seven to three3 with one abstention$ 2nd one &e&ber who opposed his being
included on the regester o% therapists3 believing it provocative and o%%ensive to wo&en and
ho&ose9ual &e&bers3 i&&ediately resigned %ro& &e&bership in the group and in ?uite
voci%erous3 passionate language$
2 %ew days later3 a &eeting was called to protest these decisionsFa &eeting at so&eone=s
ho&e$ Selected &e&bers and associates were invited to attend' only those thought to agree or
potentially agree that those decisive votes were wrong3 o%%ensive and shouldn=t be accepted$
E&erging %ro& that and probably other in%or&al gatherings3 a proposal %or a split in the
organisation was &ade where there would be two branches o% the D23 two training progra&&es3
and even two sets o% trustees$ 2lso proposed was a split in the &aterial resources o% the
organisation3 which included our centre in Ba&pstead and two co&&unity houses in north
London$ 6ne night that sa&e wee/ a %riend o% &ine3 one o% the authors o% that proposal and the
guy who saw the %uture o% the D2 in QDin/ DowerR3 showed &e the proposal in writing3 and as/ed
&e what I thought$ The proposal was signed by about hal% the people involved in the
organisation$ I told hi& I didn=t thin/ it could wor/ and couldn=t agree to it$ ;hen he as/ed what
I wanted3 I said I wanted hi& to change his &indH Be laughed and said that he hoped we could
re&ain %riends through whatever was to %ollow$ I said I hoped so too3 but could see a situation
developing where3 given the passions and other relationships involved3 that could be di%%icult$ ;e
haven=t3 in %act3 been able to re&ain %riends

So&e &onths later the trustees o% the D2 voted against theproposal %or the split$ Then
those o% our %aculty who=d signed the proposalFabout hal% o% our %acultyFwithdrew %ro& their
teaching responsibilities and co&&it&ents two to %our wee/s be%ore the ter&s %or the D2=s
Introductory Course and Training Drogra&&e were to start$ They didn=t withdraw en !asseFwe
received separate lettersFbut clearly it was a decision they had tal/ed about and decided
together$ It was ?uite destructive to our progra&&e in ter&s o% teachers withdrawing on short
notice$ 2nd they also used this occasion to start a new psychoanalytic psychotherapy group$

!ob: ;hat /ind o% lessons do you thin/ you=ve learned %ro& all thisJ 8ro& an outsider=s
point o% view it appears to be a %uc/ing sha&blesH

Ste#e: 2n insider would say the sa&eH

"eon: Ieah3 well one o% the things I was told was that our &ove had been a deliberate
provocation to insult and be o%%ensive to our wo&en and ho&ose9ual &e&bers$ 2nd I said that I
didn=t thin/ that there was anything o%%ensive or insulting about this to any thou"htful wo&an or
ho&ose9ual$

!ob: 6h3 absolutelyF

"eon: I particularly &inded the ?uestion on abortion, because I happen to thin/ abortion
presents a pro%ound3 and a pro%oundly di%%icult3 spiritual?uestion$ I don=t have any dog&atic
position on it$ 2nd anyone who does3 or who has any /ind o% si&plistic position on it3 is probably
not loo/ing into that ?uestion and not seeing the deeply proble&atic nature o% it$ It=s a tough one
that I thin/ re?uires all o% us to really take it to heart and think about it.

Ste#e: I=d li/e to e9peri&ent with putting a positive %ace on what happened3 however
di%%icult that &ight be$ I% you thin/ about the way that groups evolve3 they so&eti&es reach a
certain siGe in which there is a lot o% creative potential3 and there is a sense that new talent isn=t
able to be recognised and able to e9press because certain people are hogging the /ey spots in
leadership within the organisation$ 2nd so li/e an a&oeba3 the organisation splits$ 2nd this is
creative and positive$ There were a lot o% people with a lot to say in the D23 and Aust a certain
nu&ber o% slots and ti&e in the D2 progra&&e$ Deople vote with their bodies3 and the group
split$ 2ll o% us are very %allible hu&an beings3 but %or an hour at a ti&e in a %i%ty+&inute hour o%
ti&e in a psychotherapy session we are able to give attention to another that=s help%ul$ 6% course
there is a connection between having a good ear3 a good sensibility3 and the ?uestion o% whose
sensibilities are good sensibilities3 and whose sensibilities are not so good sensibilities$ It is a
very3 very di%%icult ?uestion$ This goes bac/ to Ronnie3 who tal/ed about cultivating good
sensibility$ There were &any people who %elt that his sensibilities were co&pletely &essed up3
and there were &any people who %elt that they were very3 very %ine$ So the current split had its
prehistory in the split with Ronnie3 but perhaps the split into two groups was &ore about the
release o% creative potential$

"eon: Deople on the other side o% the @split=3 when they heard &e and Steve tal/ing about
sensibility3 either denigrated us %or bringing up the &atter o% sensibility3 or insinuated it was Aust
a cover %or so&ething else$ But people usually %or& %riendships and associations based on shared
or co&ple&entary sensibilitiesF

Ste#e: In 6eason and 5iolence Ronnie3 paraphrasing Sartre3 spo/e o% pled"ed groups
versus serial groups$ 2t sta/e is a /inship o% sensibility versus bureaucracy and
institutionalisation$ 2 pledged group %or e9a&ple is a repertory co&pany versus the serial
grouping o% the ordinary ;est End production$

"eon: There was so&ething about Ronnie and how he in%luenced the space around hi&
which gave one pause$ So&ething di%%erent was happening there$

Ste#e: Be didn=t lay his trip on people3 not only in the therapy3 but outside the therapy$
Be was the person least li/ely to lay his trip on anyone o% anyone I=ve ever &et$

!ob: I=& going to change the subAect now$

"eon: Be%ore you do I want to say that i% he ever began to @lay his trip= he usually caught
hi&sel% and bac/ed o%%$

!ob: Elaborate$

Ste#e: In other words he wasn=t operating %ro& a position or set o% belie%s or a point o%
view which i% you didn=t share he would try to attac/ you3 under&ine you and criticise you3 or
&a/e you %eel badly$ Be would ta/e you as you were$ I% you were clearly in contradiction with
yoursel%3 ill at ease with yoursel%3 not at peace with yoursel%3 he would try to con%ront you3
engage you and ta/e you through that to so&ething that would be &ore liberating3 &ore li%e+
enhancing3 at least in his good &o&ents$ Even at his bad &o&ents when he would get ?uite
inebriated and nasty and so on3 he still wasn=t ever an indoctrinating person$ Be wouldn=t say
you &ust not believe that3 you &ust believe this$

"eon: I was thin/ing o% a ti&e when he did lay a trip on &e$ I=d been invited to be @house
therapist= at a co&&unal house in Ealing in the early to &id+eighties and one night Ronnie was
over there %or a &eal3 invited by the residents$ 2t so&e point he started putting &e down3
ridiculing &e %or being involved again with the Dhiladelphia 2ssociation3 which he=d already
resigned %ro&3 and i&plying that I=d sun/ to the level he thought the D2 had sun/ to$ Be was
%airly pissed and was on the o%%ensive3 ?uite o%%ensiveH ;e weren=t spending &uch ti&e together
any &ore3 but I was over at his house the ne9t day$ 2nd he said so&ething li/e' QI hope you
didn=t %eel o%%ended last nightR$ I %orget e9actly what he said3 but he ca&e as close as he could or
usually did to apologising$ I said I was hanging in there at least partly with the hope o% being able
to contribute to turning things around in the years to co&e$ 2nd he responded with' QI% I were
you I thin/ I=d probably be doing the sa&e thingR$ Now the &eaning o% that @i% I were you= is
a&biguous3 but it see&ed to &e that he bac/ed o%% %ro& laying his trip on &e$

Beyond not laying trips though3 Ronnie had an unco&&on and pro%ound presence$ Be
could sit and re&ain cal& in the %ace o% a great deal o% turbulence around hi&3 which was one o%
the reasons he was so good with people who were psychotic$ Be wasn=t %rightened by it3 he
wasn=t thrown by it$ Be related to the& as %ellow creatures$ ;hile :arl >aspers %elt that there was
an abyss between hi&sel% and so&eone @schiGophrenic=3 I don=t thin/ Ronnie %elt such an abyss3
and certainly didn=t start out assu!in" any abyss$

Ste#e: Ronnie was very &uch the epito&e o% so&eone who did not su%%er %ools gladly$
2nd you could see how viscerally he could be a%%ected by the ordinary stupidities into which it=s
ordinarily so easy to lapse$

!ob: ;hen is it &ad to be nor&al and nor&al to be &adJ

"eon: ;ell what is &adnessJ <id you ta/e the title o% your boo/ %ro& a co&&ent o%
Ronnie=sJ

!ob: It was &y idea$

"eon: It was your idea$ ;ell3 6:$ It=s &ad to be nor&al3 so there=s so&ething called
nor&ality$ Now nor&ality is obviously what=s ta/en as a nor& in a particular culture$ The nor&
is de%ined by the prevailing culture or the standard deviations %ro& the &ean o% the bell curve or
so&ething li/e that3 and the whole culture can be craGy %ro& the point o% view o% those outside it3
or dissidents within it$ @Nor&ality= doesn=t necessarily in%or& us about sanity and &adness in
any pro%ound way$ So that=s out o% the way$

Ste#e: No3 it=s not3 because let=s start %ro& the basics o% language$ ;e learn how to call
things by the na&es that we=re taught to call the&$ Doets don=t have a conventional approach and
are not stuc/ in calling things in the way that they=re taught$ They=re called by things to give
the& na&es$ Now language originally was poetryC it started out when things called us to spea/ o%
the&$ 2t %irst we spo/e poetically$ Later on words beca&e levelled+o%%$ They were repeated over
and over again$ 2t %irst we cut o%% %ro& their original OpoeticP truth and &eaning3 cut o%% %ro&
any connection to e9perience$

"eon: True$ Most o% us3 &ost o% the ti&e3 tend to be levellers$

Ste#e: ;e don=t learn about geo&etry according to the way Euclid discovered its truths$
;e Aust learn the operations o% proo%$ ;e learn results rather than a process o% theorising$

"eon: ;e get out o% touch with the roots o% what it is we=re tal/ing about$ ;e beco&e
unthought%ul$ 9e beco!e deaf and unthou"htful. The origins o% language &ust have so&ething
to do with listening3 being called3 hearing and responding$ The callers3 the calls and the called
&ust have once been &ore in touch with the earth3 in touch with the wind and the sun and the
stars and the plants and ani&als and in touch with each other3 than is the case %or &ost o% us &ost
o% the ti&e3 now$ ;e get &ore and &ore cut+o%% %ro& all that3 including %ro& each other3 and so
the very language we use gets cut+o%% %ro& that3 and the way we thin/ gets cut+o%% %ro&
thought%ulness3 and then we=re all a &ess$ 6ur cut+o%% language sustains our cut+o%% relations$

Ste#e: This is why people %ind a si&ilarity between genius and insanity$ Genius and
insanity leap outside levelled+o%% conventions$ Both originate within personal and singular
e9perience$ Both are tuned+in to the call o% things be%ore na&es$ But we don=t /now whether
we=re called by the good or the bad3 by an evil genius which is si&ply distorting and deluding us$
Being out o% our &ind &eans outside o% the ordinary conventional way o% spea/ing$ ;e don=t
/now whether we=re in a state o% being called3 in a state o% grace or in a state o% disorientation$
Could it be bothJ Ronnie was always open to the proble&atic or a&biguity o% unconventional
language$ ;as there truth in itJ ;as there genius to itJ <espite other people %inding so+called
@&ad+spea/= o%%ensive or delusional or nonsense or whatever3 perhaps it was an atte&pt to
recover originary e9perience$

"eon: Be=s been accused o% %ro!anticisin" &ental illness or &adness$ That=s Aust not
correct or Aust$

Ste#e: No$

"eon: But so&e &isunderstood his hearin" the e&istential and spiritual truth in others
who were considered &ad3 validatin" it as such when that was in order3 and his being prepared
to !eet fello# bein"s face.to.face and heart.to.heart, #ithout assu!ptions about who was closer
to the truthFor the way or the li%e %or that &atterF%or %ro!anticisin" !adness. I thin/ he was
being a physician3 psychiatrist and psychotherapist of unco!!on intelli"ence, heart, erudition
and directness. ;hat is true is that he didnt suffer fools "ladly, whether they were
conventionally considered sane or !ad. Be was open to the people he was &eeting with i% they
were really in touch with so&ething3 or sincerely seekin" or in$uirin" as best they could$
;hether they were diagnosable as psychotic or diagnosable as nor&al didn=t &a/e &uch
di%%erence to hi& when it ca&e to what ti&e he had %or the& or in the attention and respect he
accorded the&$

Ste#e: 6r whether they were celebrated as intellectuals$

!ob: Let &e change the subAect$ 2ccreditation$ 2re we si&ply going headlong towards
thisJ Is there no way bac/J Can you no longer be an independent therapistJ ;hat are the pros
and cons o% thisJ

"eon: I thin/ we=re probably going ahead towards accreditation$ But i% we don=t want to
be registered3 could we be having philosophical conversations with peopleJ 6r will the long ar&
o% the state try to regulate that tooJ

!ob: It=s interesting3 because that=s what=s happening in 8rance3 isn=t itJ

"eon: 2nd Bolland$

Ste#e: 2nd in so&e places now in 2&erica and Israel$

!ob: That=s a really interesting develop&ent isn=t itJ

Ste#e:FLpausesMFThe big ?uestion involved in pro%essional registration is the ?uestion
that has always haunted psychic researchersFthe ?uestion o% ?uac/ery$ Bow can you distinguish
serious practitioners %ro& charlatansJ This is the ?uestion that Austi%iably &otivates the consu&er
protection &ove&ent$ Iou &ust set up standards o% good practice to reassure the public$
un%ortunately this has parado9ical or perverse e%%ect$ The &ore that you reassure the public with
consu&er protection standards3 the &ore you invite litigation3 even &alpractice issues$ The &ore
you set up codes o% conduct that are supposedly ethical practice3 the &ore peopleFclients and
colleaguesFcharge therapists with breaching the&$ No+one %eels %ree to practise$ 2%ter a while3
you beco&e sel%+protective$ Derhaps people get the therapist they deserve3 as Bugh Craw%ord
would say$ This &ight be a hard teaching$

"eon: It is a hard teaching$ But it &ight be right$

Ste#e: 2n inade?uate therapist will distract a client %or a ti&e$ Bope%ully the client will
get through that initial e9perience and see/ a therapist who is &ore appropriate$ Deople get
di%%erent therapists who at the ti&e are right %or the&$ The &o&ent you try to standardise the
practice you tend to reduce everything down to the lowest co&&on deno&inator$ Everyone is
e9pected to practise in a so&ewhat uni%or& way3 agreed upon by the pro%essional body$ In &y
view good therapy practice is &ore o% an art than a science$ Regulating it is li/e &a/ing art
institutionalised$ ;hen the acade&y tried to regulate art it resulted in dull3 boring3 pedestrian and
uninspired art$ The real art was happening elsewhere$ My guess is this is the sa&e sort o% process
that=s happening to therapy$ The &ore it beco&es institutionalised3 codi%ied3 constrained and
litiginous3 the &ore you produce clones$ But there doesn=t see& to be an alternative$ Therapy
pro%essionals see& to %eel too de%ensive$ They %eel they &ust have so&e /ind o% a piece o% paper$
2 reassurance3 that they can assure the public that they=re bona %ide$ Research shows that
therapists have been guilty o% abuse to patients whether they=ve had the so+called &ost pre!ier
training at the highest levels o% the highest echelons o% the Institute o% Dsychoanalysis3 whether
they=ve had a training in ordinary analytic psychotherapy training groups li/e the D23 or whether
they=ve had hu&anistic psychotherapy training3 or virtually no training at all$ There=s a si&ilar
nu&ber o% people in each category who have abused their clients$ 2nd there is abuse to clients3
and no+one says there isn=t3 but these ?uality assurance organisations don=t actually wor/3 in &y
view$ But there=s no way we=re going to avoid the&$

"eon: 2 lot o% abuse happens in %a&ilies too3 and it calls %or understanding3 not Aust %or
Audge&ent and conde&nation$ ;here people are thrown into at least potential inti&acy3 there=s
power%ul stu%% going onF

Ste#e:Fin a variety o% di%%erent ways obviously3 not only se9ual3 but also se9ual$ ;hat
was the second ?uestion that you as/edJ Iou shi%ted the ?uestion to another ?uestion$

!ob: No3 it was the sa&e one$

Ste#e: No3 there was another ?uestion a%ter what do we thin/ about registrationJ

!ob: 2bout whether or not it will stop creativity$ No3 what I want you to tal/ about is the
philosophicalF

Ste#e: Ieah3 well the trouble with the so+called philosophical counselling and the
philosophical therapy &ove&ent is their naivety in regard to interpersonal relatedness$ They
correctly see the li&itations o% a sel%+congratulating group o% therapists organised around the
celebration o% 8reud3 and his %ollowers$ They see the e&ptiness o% the ritual o% the institution o%
psychoanalysis legiti&ating itsel% in the na&e o% 8reud$ They see that this needs to be contested$
They want to bring bac/ the lost art o% philosophical practice3 which was always a therapeutic
practice3 to challenge the co&placency and &onopoly o% psychoanalytic psychology$ There were
always physician philosophers in the ancient world3 be%ore philosophy beca&e strictly acade&ic$
Dhilosophers practised what they preached$

The Stoics3 the Epicureans3 the Sceptics3 all had practices$ They engaged people in
dialogue about the art o% living and living a good li%e$ These philosophers dealt with ethical
dile&&as in &edicine3 in business and in law and other areas$ Their role was to enable people to
ta/e up a philosophical approach3 step bac/3 e9a&ine li%e3 e9a&ine &oral dile&&as3 loo/ at
options3 open up options they hadn=t seen3 and basically in the short ter& and in a %ocused way3
acco&plish what they needed to acco&plish to %eel better$ This included &atters o% the heart0
love. It=s not an illness i% so&eone has a proble& o% love$ 8or e9a&ple3 so&eone &ight be
troubled as to whether or not to continue a passionate love a%%air with so&eone who=s already
&arried$ These are li%e proble&s that people get thrown into$ Spea/ing with so&eone engaging
in a philosophical3 Socratic dialogue is as e%%ective3 or &ore e%%ective3 than years o% therapy to
deal with these sorts o% issues$ The li&itation o% philosophical counselling is that there is a
naivety that co&es o% not being in%or&ed$ These counsellors don=t have the bene%it o% the
e9periences o% the collected body o% wisdo& and /nowledge and writing and understanding o%
psychoanalysis$ They don=t have the &aps to anticipate what happens when you are in a
therapeutic dialogue3 how that o%ten brings about special proble&sC how clients %ight against
%inding solutions to their proble&s3 how they hold on to their proble&3 %all in love with their own
proble&3 and %ight the atte&pt to release the& %ro& itC and how s/il%ul &eans are necessary3 both
to see that and to deal with that$ 2n ordinary philosopher lac/s that /nowledge and e9perience$
2lso having gone through a philosophical training &ysel%3 I /now how &uch unlearnin" I had to
do in order to sit in a roo& as a therapist and be down to earth with people and their proble&s$ I
would not want people who are si&ply trained in philosophy3 who have an acade&ic philosophy
degree3 let loose on clients or patients$ I thin/ that would be dread%ul$

"eon: 6ne o% the things that=s lac/ing in &any o% your philosophical colleagues is the
realisation that you=ve had3 and insisted on %ro& the ti&e I=ve /nown you3 that 8reud was a
philosopher$ Maybe there were philosophers li/e Schopenhauer and NietGsche who had the seeds
o% his realisation in their wor/$ Nevertheless3 it=s (reud who really insisted on the unconscious3
the unconscious !eanin" of drea!s and sy!pto!s, and on +ust listenin" and free associations.
That is not nor&ally included in the philosophy curriculu&$ This is a contribution that 8reud did
&a/e3 and that we=re &oved by3 even though we have &any criticis&s o% psychoanalytic theory
and the institutional practice o% psychoanalysis$ The /ernel o% that is very %ine$

Ste#e: The ?uestion you didn=t as/ is the whole ?uestion o% training altogether$ It is really
the ?uestion o% are therapists born3 or &adeJ >ust as so&e people have &usical ability and talent
and so&e don=t$

"eon: MoGart &ight have had inherent &usical geniusF

Ste#e: Ies3 e9actly$

"eon: But the %act that Leopold was his %ather3 and he heard lots o% &usic and got lots o%
&usical training %ro& early on3 was not a negligible %actor in the %lowering o% his a&aGing
creativity$

Ste#e: 2nd o% course having said that3 i% so&eone has the basic talent and is born with it3
then it can be brought out$ But can you turn sows= ears into sil/ pursesJ Lots o% people want to
applyFMasses o% people are applying to &assive a&ounts o% these training progra&&es and
counselling and therapy and so on3 and how &any really are appropriateJ

!ob: ;hen you both loo/ bac/ at the si9ties and co&pare it to now3 is it Aust with one
great sense o% regretJ

"eon: ;ell3 when we tal/ about wor/ing together on various proAects3 aren=t we
considering what radical action &ight be called %or and how that could be e9pressed and
i&ple&ented todayJ No3 I don=t %eel regret when I loo/ bac/$

Ste#e: Iou see to &e3 when I loo/ bac/ on the si9ties3 the thing that I=ve always %elt
about it and that I still %eelFand I=& interested in discussing itFis that the si9ties reached an
inevitable li&itation3 because the si9ties was an atte&pt to brea/ down the Establish&ent$ It saw
the Establish&ent as so&ehow the ene&y3 so all the initiatives and ele&ents and so on were an
atte&pt to /ind o% point a %inger at the Establish&ent$ 2nd where it then ca&e up against its
li&itation was that it was %inancially supported by the Establish&entC the si9ties children were
able to be si9ties children3 and were able to have that /ind o% &arginal leeway in their lives to
protest3 because they were ulti&ately subsidised3 and they ulti&ately /new they had Aobs to go
bac/ to3 even i% they dropped out$ They could drop bac/ in$ 6nce the unreality o% that syste& was
registeredFand I don=t thin/ it was an accident that the penny droppedFI thin/ that the si9ties
was dealt with by the Establish&ent by si&ply drying up those &argins3 so that people would
have to worry and concentrate their &inds about livelihoods3 and all o% a sudden that was the end
o% the si9ties3 and the end o% radicalis&3 because then people realised a%ter all they did have to
survive$ Now I don=t thin/ that there=s necessarily anything wrong with survival3 obviously3 but I
do thin/ that the capitalist syste& has /ind o% been sel%+congratulatory3 particularly in the %ace o%
the de&ise o% co&&unis&3 and saying that this is a syste& that didn=t wor/$ Now everyone
realises that only capitalis& wor/s$ 8oucaya&a and his end o% history boo/ has this &essage3 a
sort o% sel%+congratulatory thesis which is widely accepted$ I thin/ it=s co&pletely wrong3
because I don=t thin/ that capitalis& is a good way o% distributing wealth$ I thin/ capitalis& is
not a wholeso&e syste& at all3 and I thin/ it has huge %issures which I thin/ it has yet to con%ront
and which it will have to con%ront3 but I thin/ that=s where the trans%or&ations will have to co&e$
2nd I thin/ this is where I would say again I supported Ronnie in his approach o% not necessarily
wor/ing within the hospital as a syste&3 because the hospital was an i&possible setting %or
brea/ing down the /ind o% structures that Ronnie was challenging3 in ter&s o% the theory and
practice o% psychiatry3 but it was addressed at psychiatry$ Ronnie was a psychiatrist3 he had
beco&e a psychiatrist3 he was %irst a &edical doctor and then he beca&e a psychiatrist3 and he
beca&e a psychoanalyst$ Be was within the syste&3 and then he criticised it to try to brea/ it
down3 and then to try to rethin/ it3 and to re%or&ulate it$ 2nd %or &e so&e o% the proble& around
Ronnie and the D23 and so&e o% the hesitation I have3 was the si9ties= ethos$ In the sense that
&any who ca&e round to the @scene= were sycophants I didn=t %eel I had &uch in co&&on with$
They went &ore into revelry3 wildness and dance$ I had no obAection to revelries and dances3 but
also there has to be a degree o% rigour and seriousness3 which Ronnie /new3 but a lot o% people
who %ollowed in his so+called wa/e didn=t$ 2nd I %elt that all that had to be cleared away be%ore
what he was tal/ing about could be seriously opened up and discussed in a real way$ I didn=t
?uite e9pect though %or this discussion to be so %oreclosed and eclipsed so suddenly as it see&s
to have been in the nineties3 because I thin/ the ?uestions he raised are very alive ?uestions3
which have yet to be really opened up$ By the sa&e to/en I thin/ there are ?uestions that 8reud
raised which are alive3 and have yet to be really addressed$

"eon: 8or instance in psychiatry$ Dsychiatry not only hasn=t ta/en Laing on board3 it=s
not yet ta/en 8reud on board$

!ob: It=s &edicine$ It has no interest in people$ Deople whose lives are co&plicated with
all /inds o% connections and interpersonal connections$ Bow can &edicine ta/e that seriously3 %or
Christ=s sa/eJ Medicine is about getting things %i9ed3 ?uic/ as possible3 isn=t itJ

"eon: It depends on what %or& o% &edicine$ There are so&e3 though too %ew3 ;estern
physicians who are aware o% and practise %ro& the realisation o% the connectedness and inter+
being o% us and everything else$ There are signi%icant di%%erences though between the paradig&s
o% ;estern &edicine and those o%3 say3 Tibetan &edicine or traditional Chinese &edicine$
Traditional Eastern approaches are not3 as a rule3 about getting things %i9ed ?uic/ly$ 2nd 8reud
wasn=t on about getting things %i9ed ?uic/ly$ It ta/es as long as it ta/es$

Ste#e: That=s right$ Be was practising as a physician in the original sense$ Tal/ing about
&oving %ro& the si9ties to the nineties3 the nineties is a ti&e o% great potential in that there have
been a lot o% interesting and i&portant contributions that have enhanced the possibility o%
conversation and thin/ing$ Darticularly in 8rance3 li/e the initiatives o% thin/ers such as <errida
and Levinas3 although &any %ind the& i&penetrable$

"eon: It too/ &e about %ive readings to begin to get Levinas= Totality and nfinity. More
recently I read and re+read <errida=s /ift of )eath, and so&e o% the te9ts he=s considering3 &any
ti&es$ Now3 was it worth itJ ;ell I thin/ those boo/s are a&ong the classics o% our ti&e$ 2nd %or
&e it was a privilege to be able get to the point o% being able to engage in a conversation with
the&3 with Steve=s help$

Ste#e: I had the privilege o% a philosophical education where I did virtually nothing else
but read boo/s %or years and years and years$ I was paid to have the ti&e to do itH

!ob: Can we tal/ about drugsJ

"eon: ;hat do you want to tal/ aboutJ 2nd which drugsJ I% we=re not hypocritical or
ignorant3 we /now that drugs &ay be help%ul or har&%ul3 to this or that person3 in this or that
conte9t3 whether they are prescribed and legal or street drugs3 presently illegal$ It=s di%%icult to
have an intelligent and open conversation about drugs in our society because there are huge
econo&ic interests at sta/e3 whether we=re tal/ing legal or illegal drugs$ I don=t thin/ banning the
use o% drugs that really are %airly benign3 li/e cannabis3 either &a/es good sense or wor/s$ I
suspect that &aintaining the illegality o% hard drugs is &ainly good %or the drug cartels$ I suspect
that people in high places around the world are overly dog&atic3 ignorant andEor corrupt when it
co&es to drugs policy$ That=s not &e saying that I thin/ drugs are good or sa%e$ Many are
har&%ul and dangerous and that=s so %or &any o% the &edical+phar&aceutical industry=s products3
%ood additives3 tobacco and other products as well and3 o% course3 the &any industrial wastes and
others che&icals that pollute earth3 air and water3 %ar &ore dangerous than so&e drugsFcannabis
%or e9a&pleFthat &any govern&ents are so hypocritically andEor ignorantly sel%+righteous
about$

;e can=t really say &uch &ore about @drugs= in general3 but would have to tal/ not only
about speci%ic drugs but also their uses and abuses by particular people3 in particular conte9ts3 as
well as about the basis o% this or that social policy regarding drugs and their health3 social3
econo&ic and political i&plications and conse?uences$

2s %or &ysel%3 %or &any years I over+indulged in alcohol and drugs3 &ainly cannabis3 but
also LS<$ I still drin/ and so&eti&es have a s&o/e3 i% it=s o%%ered and i% I=& reasonably sure that
it wasn=t @cut= with other and possibly to9ic constituentsFwhich is not unco&&on3 is nasty and
irresponsible3 and accounts %or no s&all part o% the downside o% @so%t= drug ta/ing$

I=& now3 in &y Audge&ent3 &oderate and care%ul in &y consu&ption o% alcohol and
occasionally cannabis$ I=ve beco&e &ore sensitive3 so I notice when &y &ind%ulness o% &ysel%3
others and our surroundings is di&inishedC and when a good condition o% body and &ind3
including the way I=& co&porting &ysel%3 breathing3 listening3 responding3 and so on3 has begun
to di&inish$ 2nd then I /now I=ve had enough and stopFusuallyH

I thin/ drugs contributed in so&e ways to getting &e &ore in touch &y being+in+the+
world with others and to loosening &e up so that I could enAoy li%e a bit &ore$ But drugs also in
so&e ways clouded &y consciousness and were %actors in &y avoiding and evading certain
realisations about the way I was living &y li%e$ Maybe we should co&e bac/ to this another ti&e
with a clearer idea o% what about @drugs= we want to address$ It=s obviously a vast subAect$

!ob:FLpausesMF2nyway3 you=ve both had very di%%erent lives$ Steve=s been &arried to
the sa&e wo&an %or nearly %orty years$ Iou=ve not been &arried to the sa&e wo&an %or %orty
yearsF

"eon: I=& in &y third &arriage and I=ve had several relationships in between$

!ob: ;hat are your di%%erent de%initions o% a contented happy li%eJ ;hat is happinessJ
>ust ru&inate on that i% you can$

Ste#e: ;ell you /now the Gree/ word %or happiness is eude!onia. Bappiness has in it a
de&onic side$ Eu &eans @well=C it=s o%ten translated as well+being3 happinessC it really literally
&eans to be on the right side o% your de&ons$ Everyone has di%%erent de&ons3 and happiness is
to be on the right side o% the&$ It=s not li/e there=s a path toward happiness3 in &y view anyway$
Everyone has di%%erent de&ons3 and everyone has to &a/e their peace with their own de&ons3
%ind a way towards what is o%ten called a balanced li%e$ 2nother argu&ent against at least the
rhetoric o% hu&anistic psychology is that it=s o%ten called a growth &ove&entC people grow and
grow3 but growing %or its own sa/e Aust doesn=t lead anywhere3 you Aust grow inde%initely3 you
can always grow$ The point is to %lower3 to reach a %ul%il&ent$

!ob: ;hat are your de&ons SteveJ

Ste#e: ;ell I have a lot o% de&ons$ 2nd the usual appetites that are de&onic that haunt
&e and drive &e and push &e and pull &e' greed3 %ear3 an9iety3 worries$ Then all the proble&s
that are to do with aspirations3 and not being able to be good enough at what I=& doing3 or
so&eti&es thin/ing I=& better at so&ething than I really a&$

!ob: Leon3 what about how you approach the idea o% happinessJ

"eon: 2 good part o% &y li%e3 or rather a part o% &y li%e that wasn=t goodFa good deal o%
itFor rather3 a lot o% it3 which wasn=t such a good deal3 involved a lot o% an9iety3 unhappiness3
&isery and su%%ering$ 2s I=ve &oved on through &y li%e I %ind that I=&3 %irst o% all3 very grate%ul
that I=& not that way now3 that I=ve &oved considerably out o% that real& o% an9iety and &isery
and su%%ering and unhappiness$

Bappiness involves3 %or &e3 the ability to ac/nowledge and su%%er &y su%%ering3 tune in to
the sources o% it and be as %ree as possible %ro& unnecessary3 pointless su%%eringFI Aust thought
o% the prayer that the 22 &a/es use o% with re%erence to our own3 or in each case @&y= own3
wea/nesses3 &isguided ways and su%%ering andEor being insu%%erable to others$ Iou pray %or the
ability to change what you can3 accept with e?uani&ity that which you can=t3 and to have the
wisdo& to /now the di%%erence$ There=s a contribution towards happiness and well+beingH

I thin/ and %eel I=& on a path toward happiness when I=& on the way to being &ore open
to3 responsible %or and "enerousto othersFwhen I=& getting freer of %!e.centeredness. That=s a
key point. I=d include being able to celebrate life, without %ailing to be &ind%ul and responsive to
su%%ering and inAusticeC to tune in to, appreciate, be astonished, to celebrate the #onder o% this
@suchness= that I=& thrown into with the others who are thrown into it with &e$ ;hen I=&
relatively open and attuned to it3 it=s Aust a&aGing$

Ste#e: I would endorse that sense o% being on the right side o% your de&ons3 which is
avoiding the su%%ering that can be caused by the way that we are tor&ented by things that we %ind
ourselves prone to3 or drawn toward or driven to$ Then positively3 to be able to &ove toward
en+oy!ent, as &uch as there is andF

"eon: 2nd to %ind others with who& to share thatF

Ste#e: 2nd enAoy theF

"eon: Si&ple pleasures$ Li/e sitting here tal/ing together$

Ste#e: Ieah3 I would say sitting here tal/ing together is enAoyableC good conversation is a
pleasure$ It=s not always easy to %ind /indred spirits with who& one can converse and co!!une
and en+oy life together with$

"eon: It=s &issing out on a source o% great Aoy i% there aren=t any others available to
celebrate li%e with$

Ste#e: 2nd I would say also &a/ing &usic is a great area o% enAoy&ent$

"eon: I once proposed so&ething to Ronnie which he tal/s about in your boo/3 but
doesn=t attribute to &e3 which was the three !s4 !usic, !editation and !artial arts. That3 or
so&ething o% that order3 is so&ething to go %or$ It=s a good and power%ul co&bination$
,editation can start with &ind%ulness o% breathing3 body3 &ind3 %eelingsC &ove towards
and into absorption in one pointed concentration in the sense o% recession toward no distinctionsC
get in touch with e&ptiness and a realisation o% what Thich Nhat Bahn calls inter+beingFout o%
and other than the li&iting and destructive con%ine&ent o% one=s egoic sel%C and &ove toward a
living in and with the presence o% awareness3 o% whatever is going on3 and being %ree and able to
respond responsibly and co&passionately$

8or !artial artsFand I could substitute yoga or the 2le9ander Techni?ue here3 though
they=re not @&=s and not &artialFto practise the& well and integrate the& with responding to the
callings o% daily li%e you=ve got to be in touch with your body and your surroundings$ Each can
be e9cellent preparation %or &editation andEor the&selves be practised as &editations$ The
&artial arts3 depending on how their taught3 and learned3 can be subli&e in cultivating a way o%
being in which you=re not aggressive3 but can really ta/e care o% yoursel%$ Iou use the thrust o%
the other person=s attac/ on you to throw the& o%%+balance$ It=s ?uite a good &etaphor %or &any
situations in li%e$

2nd then there=s !usic, and %or that we can also substitute or include the other arts3 but
&usic is perhaps the &ost i&&ediate and subli&e$

Ste#e: Music &eant all the arts in Gree/ Y ,ousa Othe MusesFartsP$

Leon' This &usic3 &editation and &artial arts3 or so&ething o% that order3 was very &uch
a part o% the a&bience o% the D2 scene while Ronnie was still around$ It virtually disappeared
%ro& the D2 once Ronnie le%t$ The D2 see&ed to beco&e3 or aspired to beco&e3 an increasingly
psychoanalytic psychotherapy training organisation and guild3 caught up with the politics o%
registration bodies and then3 increasingly %or so&e years3 in responding to the the call o% so&e to
&arch in step with their political and ideological positions$ Responding by either Aoining %orces
with those %ol/s or trying to %end o% the i&position o% their agenda$

Maybe we can re/indle desire %or the @&=s3 or their e?uivalents$ It co&es down to
prioritising spiritual issues3 or rather the spiritual di&ension that per&eates everything3 however
&uch we get perversely cut+o%% %ro& it$

Ste#e: Ronnie so&eti&es spo/e o%Fonce or at ti&esFspo/e o% at least e9peri&enting
with the na&e @integral= in his approach3 because he could never ?uite %ind a na&e %or it$ 2nd by
that he &eant that there are various di%%erent do&ains or di&ensions that we can separate3 even
though in living we=re all interconnected to all o% the&3 and so he distinguished a spiritual3 an
intellectual3 an inter+personal3 an e&otional and a physical real&3 and there was the idea that
&aybe you can so&ehow be aligned3 in har&ony3 in all those real&s$ So when a person is
disconnectedFhead is one place3 genitals are in another3 heart in anotherFthe person is out o%
align&ent3 thus out o% synch with anyone who& this person &eets$ So getting align&ent o% these
three do&ains leads to a happiness or eude!onia.

!ob: 6:$ Today is the %irst ti&e I=ve ever heard Steve raise his voiceFabout the D2
issues$ So I was Aust wondering about two things$ Bow i&portant is it %or you to be part o% an
organisationJ Every ti&e I=ve Aoined an organisation they=ve either hated &e or I=ve hated the&$
2nd the second thing is3 what will &a/e you persevere with the aggravation or Aust wal/ awayJ

"eon: ;ell I=ll ta/e the second one %irst$ unless the situation particularly calls %or that3
leaving right in the &iddle o% a stor& would be irresponsible3 and probably leave &e and
everyone else %eeling worse than we already do$ ;e=re not yet through a stor&$
I thin/ I can do without the organisational @aggro=$ ;hat I o%ten don=t /now3 in any given
situation3 is how I could be navigating3 through whatever troubled waters there are3 i% I was
cal&er and &ore collected3 and that=s o%ten been an e9cuse %or &e staying in so&e situations %ar
too long$ on the other hand3 it=s also true that in al&ost any situation that I can thin/ o%3 i% I was
able to %ind and better &aintain &y balance3 &y centre o% gravity3 and beco&e &ore open and
&ore e&pty o% all the shit we get caught up in that we don=t need to get caught up in3 then
probably I could better navigate3 or navigate otherwise3 through personal3 group and
organisational relationships$ There &ay be truth in both$ I thin/ it=s true that3 at any &o&ent3 I
could and should cal& down and wise+up3 and it=s also true that I=& so&eti&es too stubborn and
obstinate and wanting to persist in %ollies o% &y own &a/ing3 with no guarantee that persisting in
the %olly is going to lead to wisdo& or to so&e good outco&e$

!ob: >ust be%ore Steve interAects here3 I a& a great @runner awayerer=3 as you /nowF

"eon: ;ell I=& the opposite$ Iou and I can perhaps both %ind a &iddle ground$

Ste#e: ;ell I=& li/e you3 Bob3 in that I don=t easily Aoin anything either$ But the D2 was a
Groucho Mar9 club$ None o% us would want to Aoin a club that would have us as &e&bers$ ;e
were a group o% irregulars3 o% people who %elt !ar"inalised. The e9istence o% the group was
always in ?uestion$ 2ll o% us /ept open the ?uestion o% the e9istence o% the group and o% our own
inclusion in it$ This open ?uestion has /ept the group alive$ ;hen a group turns into an
institution3 when it holds to doctrines and its &e&bers stand %or and represent its orthodo9ies or
group nor&s3 then I thin/ you=re in trouble$ 2nd our proble& has been to /eep the D2 alive as a
genuine ?uestioning enterprise3 an association o% people who &ean so&ething to one another3
and to not turn into an institution or a pro%essional organisation$ <oing therapy is so&ething you
do in your consulting roo&3 &ost o% the day$ 2nd i% you didn=t have any colleagues it could be
very isolating$ Iou need to get the renewal o% the studies3 sharing3 interaction and sti&ulation3
provocation and all the rest o% it$ I get angry slowly3 but when I do3 I get pretty angry3 and I=&
certainly angry not so &uch at anyone3 but probably at &ysel% %or not having been &ore %orce%ul
sooner in opposing a gathering set o% %orces that were building up against the ethos o% the D23
%ro& within the D2$ ;e %ound ourselves under attac/ %or not being su%%iciently psychoanalytic by
&e&bers who too/ up the position o% being holier3 i$e$ &ore psychoanalytic3 than thou$ This was
against all D2 tradition and sensibility$

!ob: ;hat are the pros and cons o% being suc/ed into the 4:CD syste&J ;hat are the
bene%its and what are the disadvantagesJ

"eon: I% and when the govern&ent re?uires the registration o% psychotherapists3 then this
could be3 and certainly wants to be3 the body that the govern&ent will deal with$
Dsychotherapists who want to call the&selves psychotherapists &ight need to be registered$ This
would a%%ect &e too3 but I=& in &y si9ties3 and people who want to see &e3 whether through
reputation or contacts3 aren=t li/ely to be too concerned i% they hear I=& not in the 4:CD3 or
so&e other recognised registration body$ It=s o% &ore concern to the younger therapists3 and to
students presently training or people considering training as therapists$ ;ill students want to
train with us3 the D23 i% they can=t be assured o% being ?uali%ied and registeredJ o% course one
could as/ what di%%erence does it &a/eJ <oes one have to be registered as a psychotherapist to
practiseJ 2nd can=t one call onesel% so&ething elseJ Li/e so&eone who is on %or having
philosophical conversationsJ 2nd I thin/ the answer is yes3 probably$ There &ight be so&e
downsides to that$ ;ill an insurance co&pany give you &alpractice insurance %or philosophical
conversationsJ 8or third+party pay&entFunco&&on here but co&&on in the States and in so&e
European countriesFprobably one would have to be registered$ The D2 has received a
signi%icant part o% its inco&e %ro& students= tuition %ees3 and the organisation could be in
di%%iculty i% students stopped co&ing along$

None o% those considerations ought to be su%%icient to /eep us in the 4:CD at all costs$
There=s so&ething inherently3 at least potentially3 corrupt and corrupting about large
organisations$ Dro%essional groups are no e9ception any &ore than political parties3 govern&ents3
universities3 the police %orce3 and so on$ The 4:CD3 li/e &ost other organisations3 is &ore
&otivated by sel%+interest and caught up in its own power struggles than inspired by
thought%ulness and Austice$ I=ve o%ten thought and proposed that we should go our own way3 and
let it be /nown that so&e o% us practise psychotherapy3 and have our ways o% thin/ing3 practising
and teaching$ ;e could ta/e on people who want to learn %ro& us and with us as apprentices and
students$ That could include people who want to beco&e psychotherapists and are training
elsewhere3 getting their recognised ?uali%ication elsewhere3 as well as people who are si&ply
interested in what we=re concerned with3 and in our way o% ?uestioning and practising3 and don=t
give a da&n about registration3 which &ight a%ter all never happen3 and people &ight in the event
%ind ways around it$ It certainly could include3 as it already has on various occasions3 therapists
who=ve already trained and ?uali%ied elsewhere$ In other words3 we could be a group involved
with education3 research3 ?uestioning3 conversation3 and not concerned with bureaucratic and
political &atters that ta/e us ?uite %ar a%ield %ro& the proble&atics o% su%%ering and its radical
alleviation$

It=s easier to give yoursel% a di%%erent na&e3 li/e a Socratic conversationalist3 i% you=re a
therapist3 and get around the law3 than it would be %or so&eone doing heart surgery or practising
as a barrister$ I would li/e to be part o% an association rather than an organisation3 where people
are associated together in the na&e o% so&ething3 toward and %or the sa/e o% so&ething that
pro%oundly &atters3 not Aust %or the sa/e o% being legiti&ated$ So the downside o% being involved
with the 4:CD is unnecessary involve&ent in bureaucracy and bureaucratic and political
constraints that &ight not only not be o% value to a responsible practice o% psychotherapy3 but
&ight actually inter%ere with it$

Ste#e: I agree with everything Leon has said so %ar3 I=ll Aust add a couple o% points$ 6ne3
%or &e the downside is that it=s very &uch &y i&pression that this organisation Owhat little
contact I=ve had with itP is hu!ourless, and without any sense o% irony$ 2nd so because o% that I
%eel that one can=t really spea/ in that /ind o% a conte9t3 where you=re with people who ta/e
the&selves deadly seriously3 and it=s very deadening$ 2nd the trouble with that is that such an
organisation is a%ter legiti&ation3 or legiti&acy3 which is sel%+congratulating3 and results in an
evaluation o% what is and isn=t allowed to be said in a discourse that is &onitored and supervised$
This has very little to do with what=s authentic or genuine in practice$ In %act it=s contrary to the
spirit o% psychoanalysis$ 2nd the upside o% it is to do with the least worst optionFto avoid
possible e9clusion %ro& practice should certi%ication beco&e legally &andatory3 especially %or
our trainees$ ;ithout registration they &ay beco&e une&ployable$

!ob: 6:3 so people get Aobs who are registered with the 4:CD$ Not only are they
hu&ourless3 but they=re not producing people with inspiration3 innovation3 and to &e it=s against
the whole spirit o% the D2$ To &e the D2 would then be one o% those organisations that &ade a
big splash and disappeared$ It=s no longer at the %ore%ront o% the cutting edge$

"eon: I thin/ the 4:CD involve&ent has contributed to the decline3 the di&inishing3 the
%lattening3 the &ove towards e9piration and away %ro& inspiration3 o% the D2$ In the eighties
people in the D2 were &a/ing a brea/ with Ronnie and declaring that they were psychoanalytic
psychotherapists3 with a bit o% philosophy in there so&ewhere3 and then suppressing &uch o%
Laing3 not Aust the Laing te9ts3 but the Laing wildness3 ?uestioning and seeing through cant and
bullshit$ The @&arriage= with the 4:CD was3 in part3 a conse?uence o% that as well as a cause o%
sustaining so&e o% that suppression$ Steve and I3 however we &ight di%%er on the details o% this3
thin/ that the D2 that we would value3 that we would %eel right about putting our energy into3 and
%eel both inspired by and want to contribute towards inspiring3 probably is going to be one that
has to &a/e a brea/ %ro& that sort o% bureaucratic deadening$

!ob: The D2 has been @bought o%%=$ >oining the 4:CD is probably the end3 isn=t itJ

Ste#e: 8or &e it=s not a ?uestion o% eitherEor3 I thin/ it=s a &atter o% &anaging the
polarities$ I thin/ Ronnie ended in a tragic way because he beca&e a voice in the wilderness$ Be
wanted to change the world3 change the institutions3 change things that &atter3 but he was &ore
and &ore %rustrated and unheard$ Iou &ay have wisdo&3 but i% you don=t bring it to people to
&a/e a di%%erence3 then to &e you=ve only done hal% the Aob$ So all I=& saying is not that we
want our students to be li/e everyone elseFand I don=t thin/ they areFbut that they shouldn=t
Aust be ruled out o% court3 Aust by virtue o% wor/ing with us$ I thin/ we still do things that are
di%%erent3 and are i&portant$

!ob: Such asJ

Ste#e: ;ell I thin/ that we do have a criti?ue that we &a/e o% psychoanalysisC we don=t
swallow it wholeC we do have a philosophical orientationC we do ?uestion the %oundations that
are si&ply accepted as cant and dog&a and as catechis& in orthodo9 groups in which one is
in%antilised and taught to si&ply Aust %ollow those rules and &a/e noises and spea/ as one is
taught to spea/$ ;e turn it round$ ;e really are &uch &ore poetic in inviting people to na&e
things according to their e9perience3 based upon reinventing3 rediscovering3 the nature o% the
proAect o% psychoanalysis$ It=s a %unda&entally di%%erent way o% going about what we=re involved
in3 and I thin/ that our way is going to renew psychoanalysis3 which otherwise will collapse3 and
should collapse i% it stops ?uestioning itsel%$ I% all it ever is is si&ply a %oru& %or repetition3 %or
reiterating the standard dog&as3 then it has no value$ I thin/ there is value3 but I thin/ it has to be
rediscovered and recovered by each practitioner in a way that goes bac/ to where 8reud got it
%ro&3 and the place where Ronnie got it %ro&$ I don=t thin/ we should idealise either 8reud or
Ronnie$ ;e only respect the& i% we recover so&ething o% the process o% the proAect that they
were involved in3 and go beyond it$ 2nd this is what I thin/ we try and do$ But so&eti&es you
need to protect yoursel% and travel in disguise$

!ob: I couldn=t disagree &ore$

Ste#e: I ta/e your point that things get e&asculated$ 2nd I thin/ again you=re too e9tre&e
in the sense o% not recognising that there is and will always be the so+called conventional world
o% the Establish&ent as it was in the si9ties$ It was the target o% so+called radicals until they
realised they were the ene&y they wanted to attac/$ They had the privileges3 the leisure3 to
%or&ulate and &a/e criticis&s3 but they were living o%% their dads3 their %a&ily &oney$ 2nd
where was that &oney co&ing %ro&J So it=s that whole capitalist syste& that is %unda&entally
rotten at its core$ It=s one big crap ga&e3 where twenty+si9+year+olds can bet the ban/$ They
leverage two hundred and %i%ty ti&es the value o% the actual &oney that they have3 and threaten a
&eltdown o% the %inancial syste&$ 2nd I don=t %eel I=& being too apocalyptic3 I thin/ we=re
%acing so&ething li/e that$ 4nless we %ind roo& %or so&e /ind o% goodness3 %or so&e
responsibility and ethics3 I thin/ we will re&ain an endangered species$

"eon: 6ne o% the things that I=ve o%ten said3 inspired by >ac?ues <errida=s wor/3 is that
we=ve not only got to learn to live and play at the !ar"ins, but we also have to be able to play
#ith the !ar"ins, with the boundaries$ I %eel that it could be 6: to stay in the 4:CD i% the
people in our group realise that that=s already a co&pro&ise that corrupts$ So&e see it as
necessary3 but it could %inish o%% the heart o% the groupFwhat=s le%t o% the heart3 i% it hasn=t done
so already$ I don=t thin/ it has done so yet3 not ?uite$ I% the people in the group %ind a way to stay
in the 4:CD3 but not at the cost o% co&pro&ise that corrupts us and what we teach and practise3
then it could be %ine$ That would be good %or the 4:CD too$ 2t least so&e people are clear about
this3 as I thin/ and hope I a&$ It=s not proble&atic %or &e to prioritise &y practiceFwhat I ta/e
to be a responsible practice and a responsible way o% responding to other peopleFover
&e&bership in an organisation that &ight be e9pedient and practical in so&e ways3 but which
could corrupt$ 2nd at the end o% the day3 and I ?uite literally &ean at the end o% the day in the
sense o% &y dying &o&ent3 I=& not going to care whether I %inished &y li%e in the 4:CD or not$
But whether I=ve lived and practised with integrity3 i% I=ve /ept &y heart=s eye on the ball or not3
that will be a &atter o% concern$ It will &atter whether or not I=ve sold out to one o% the &odern
%or&s o% the @devil=Fbureaucratic levellin". Now I thin/ we have to pay attention3 and attention
to the details3 as to how we &ight attend to these &atters in such a way that we help each other
contribute to the heart o% the &atter and Aointly %acilitate our e9a&ining this in such a way that
we=re not deceiving ourselves$

Ste#e: But also we need to &aybe go public with it3 as we &ightF

"eon: That=s one o% the reasons %or doing this$

Ste#e:Fin order to call to order a corrupt organisation$ 2nd i% you thin/ o% Socrates3 he
was conde&ned %or so+called corruption$ But it was really a corrupt 2thens that couldn=t ta/e his
relentless e9a&ination o% their arrogant and sel%+righteous ways$ 2nd so he was conde&ned to
death$ Be was given the chance to escape3 and he said no$ ;hy didn=t he Aust %leeJ Be said he
had been under the protection o% the city3 and however corrupt3 it was still the very %abric o% law
that he had to support3 and he would have co&pro&ised what he stood %or i% he %led$ In other
words3 even i% you disagree with the law you still have to obey it while you are trying to change
it$ Deople agree to be together and to accept a set o% rules$ It=s naive to thin/ that you can Aust
have %ree play$ Iou can play at the &argins3 you can play with the rulesC you &ay be deceiving
yoursel%3 and I wouldn=t disagree with you$ Iou &ight be$

"eon: I thin/ we can ta/e it %or granted that we al&ost certainly are involved in so&e
sel%+deception$ But we have to try to e9plicate what it is$

Ste#e: 2nd then help each other out o% it$FLpausesMFBut we can still &a/e a space %or
ourselves$ The lesson Dlato learnt %ro& the trial o% Socrates was that he needed an acade&y to
protect hi&$ 2lso3 he wrote dialogues to &as/ his subversion o% the State$ In short3 you have to
invent devices %or radical thin/ing that help you both to get the &essage across3 but also to
survive$ Now developing ways that open a space %or thin/ing3 that %oster genuine thought%ulness3
is not an easy thing$ This is the test o% a good society$ Most people accept &ind control and
thought policing$ 2nd all that that i&plies$ 2nd it=s horri%ic$ But I don=t share the view that you
go to an enclave3 an oasis3 or a retreat3 and then you do your thin/ing$ That=s a cop outC it=s the
other side o% being co+opted$ 2nd is e?ually e&asculating$ So there=s a polarity hereFchanging
the world or retreating %ro& it$ This is not a ?uestion o% right versus wrong$

"eon:FLpausesMFI have two ?uestions that I=d li/e us to address3 and they=re both
actually practical$ 6ne is' you=re a loner3 you=re not a &e&ber o% any organisation$ But the three
o% us are associated right now on a proAect o% getting this boo/ out3 and we=ve tal/ed about doing
other %urther proAects3 particularly wor/shops3 which we &ight enAoy doing3 and which we thin/
&ight actually do so&e good$ 2nd also earn a part o% our livelihood doing so&ething thatF

Ste#e:Fputs %orward so&e o% these ?uestions$

"eon: 2nd puts %orward so&e o% these ?uestions as one o% the ways o% doing good3
encouraging a thought%ulness about these &atters$ ;ell3 at so&e point &aybe we begin to
%or&alise the association in so&e way or anotherC %or instance i% we are doing wor/shops then
we &ay %ind it help%ul to have to have a ban/ account$ Right away we run into so&ething that=s
at least a &ini&al organisation$ 2nd thenF

Ste#e: ;e have to rent a space under so&e na&eF

"eon: 2nd then we possibly run into proble&s %urther down the lineF<oes the
association stop thereJ 6r do we invite other people to be associated with us in so&e wayJ It
&ight start to grow$ So we &ight have to address so&e o% these ?uestions3 and %ind thought%ul
and creative ways o% dealing with the&$ 2nd the larger a group gets3 with a diversi%ication o%
interests o% various /inds3 the &ore it will tend toward institutionalised deadening3 covert
political &anoeuvres and corruption$ The 4:CD that we=re criticising isn=t %ull o% @baddies=3 but
any institutionF&aybe at any ti&e and any place but surely in our world at this ti&eFis set in
the conte9t o% ignorance3 greed3 sel%ishness3 &ysti%ication3 hype and sound+bites3 lac/ o% genuine
love or co&passion and3 as is all too apparent &uch o% the ti&e and below the sur%ace the rest o%
the ti&e3 cynicis&3 hatred and other &ani%estations o% appropriative and destructive egocentricity
and their translation to &icro+and &acro+social settings$ So any association concerned to be
responsibly otherwiseFgiven our e&beddedness in a corrupted and corrupting social %abric3
which o%ten increases or creates &ore &isery %or othersFreally needs to consider how to prevent
the priority o% its responsibility %ro& slipping onto the bac/+burner$ This is especially so i% the
association is concerned with understanding and radically alleviating &ental su%%ering3 because
then it surely can=t3 or ought not to3 ignore the sources o% su%%ering to be %ound in our collective
ways o% being$

!ob: Let &e interAect here$ Iou /now Robert Michel=s idea that whenever you say
organisation you say oligarchy$ In other words3 in every single organisation you=ll end up with an
EliteJ Now I Aust %eel listening to you3 you don=t see& to be able to recognise the death+throes o%
an organisation3 and the need to start a new one$

"eon: 2re you sure we don=t recognise itJ

!ob: ;ell3 I don=t thin/ you recognise it as clearly as I do$

Ste#e: ;ell we &ay be dying harder3 we &ay be die+hards$

"eon: I was &eeting with students on the inroductory course last night and the &atter o%
the split ca&e up$ I spo/e o% how >ohn Gordon=s being included on our register o% therapists
contributed to the split$ I cited his saying he=d re%er a wo&an see/ing an abortion to a colleague3
because %or hi& abortion was sin%ul in the eyes o% God3 one o% the views he e9pressed that so&e
in the D2 %ound unacceptable$ I said that abortion was3 %or &e3 a pro%ound e&otional and spiritual
issue with reverberations on and in people=s lives3 and that I couldn=t agree with any dog&atic
@position= on it$ It see&ed to &e people needed to arrive at their own heart and gut searching
decisions about that and that I could only %or& an opinion on the &atter on a case by case basis$
But that >ohn=s religious belie%s and declining to involve hi&sel% in the abortion process were no
reason to re%use hi& a place o% our register$ 2t the co%%ee brea/3 one wo&an said to &e Q;here
do you draw the line thoughJ I &ean i% so&eone %ro& the National 8ront ca&e along3 would you
ad&it hi&J ;ould you respect his ideasJR I said I didn=t see a valid co&parison$ 8or her3 a 8ront
&an was presu&ably so&eone subscribing to an ideology which is hate%ul3 which hates certain
categories o% people3 and which puts such groups and &e&bers o% such groups o% people down3
and %avours or incites doing the& in3 even to the point o% &urder and genocide$ ;e have seen
and continue to see the horri%ic e%%ects o% such ideologies$ I said that the Christian &an wasn=t
involved with anything re&otely li/e that$ Be %eels that certain things are sin%ul in the eyes o%
God as revealed through the 6ld and New Testa&ent3 as he reads it$ Be declares his positionC
he=s open about itC he=s ready to re%er people to so&eone else i% they don=t want to wor/ with
hi&3 and he=s not doing a violence to people$ But her ?uestion3 as to where you draw the line3
was an interesting one$ <o you ad&it Aust anybody into your co&panyJ 2nd clearly the answer is
no. The answer ou"ht to be on a case.by.case basis$ There &ight have been another
%unda&entalist Christian who& I would have turned down because o% the way he related to
others.

Ste#e: Iou see our discussion about ethics that we=ve had as a thread through what we=ve
been saying resolves that ?uestion3 because you don=t deal with people as categories$ Deople
don=t represent categories3 even though that=s o%ten the %irst thing that people do see$ They see a
person in ter&s o% a category$ This is an @9=FNational 8ront or Christian or whateverFand then
all the biases that go with that preAudiceC preAudge&ent is already there be%ore there is a &eeting$
;hat we=re saying is that you welco&e the 6ther3 and the 6therness o% the 6ther3 %irst$ Be%ore
you /now$ Be%ore you have a set o% ideas$ Then when you %ind out that that person is a violent
person3 it=s your responsibility to address that violence$ I% you can$ Now part o% that address &ay
be to prevent the& %ro& doing violence in your group3 by not ad&itting the&3 but you don=t start
out with a re%usal to ad&it this type or that type or the other type$ 6therwise you=re Aust being
violent$

"eon: Iou=re right$ I% I &et so&eone %ro& the National 8ront3 and I didn=t actually spea/
to this guy3 listen to what he had to say and respond to hi&3 then I would be doing hi& a violence
and we both &ight be &issing an opportunity$ Be3 %or e9a&ple3 &ight be con%used3 &isled andEor
&isunderstood$ It could be that in a %ace+to+%ace conversation he &ight wa/e up to and ?uestion
so&ething o% what I ta/e to be the stupidity and pernicious ideology o% that organisation$ 2nd I=d
to well trying to hear hi! without !y pre+udice against his "roups ideology$

!ob: ;hat was your ?uestion SteveJ

Ste#e: That was the ?uestionFwhere do you draw the lineJ

"eon: Steve has Aust clari%ied and answered that by saying you don=t draw the line in
ter&s o% a category that other people attribute to this person3 or that this person attributes to hi&
or hersel%$ Iou certainly register and consider that3 but give a priority to the %ace+to+%ace
encounter$ Iou=re not preAudging where this person is co&ing %ro&3 what this person is on about$
It=s a &atter o% ethics and Austice$

!ob: 6ne o% the reasons I=& on &y own is &y own wea/ness that I thin/ that what I
believe is right$

"eon: <on=t you put yoursel% in ?uestion so&eti&es and wonder whether you haven=t got
it wrongJ

!ob: 6% course$

"eon: But you Aust said QI thin/ that what I believe is rightR$

Ste#e:FLpausesMF2ctually3 you=re raising the ?uestion beyond ethics3 the ?uestion o%
politics$ 2nd the political ?uestion is a ?uestion o% Austice$ 6ur title 2ust Listenin" resonates with
this ?uestion o% Austice3 and politics$ ;e can never re&ain at the level o% ethics3 the one+to+one3
because the %ace o% the 6ther shows other 6thers3 shows political involve&ent$ ;e all carry all
/inds o% a%%iliations3 alliances3 allegiances3 traditions3 histories3 languages3 %inancial
co&&it&ents$ ;e=re e&bedded3 up to our eyeballs in politics$ I% we don=t accept the status ?uo3
how do we ta/e an active approach to politicsJ ;hat is right %or therapeutic practitionersJ

!ob: I don=t /nowF

Ste#e: Iou can=t not spea/3 not ta/e a political stand$ The &o&ent you use language
you=re co&&itted to the hu&an race3 and you &ight decide to turn your bac/ as &uch as possible
and be a her&it3 but you still will @spea/= or stand3 even i% you ta/e a vow o% silence$
CHAPTER TWE"'E

!%&&H*S( AN&
PSYCHOTHERAPY

;e vowed not to tal/ any %urther about accreditation and the 4:CD Bowever3 this proved
to be i&possibleH But in between3 Gans and Redler discussed Buddhis&3 and in particular its
potential and actual relationship with psychotherapy$

!ob: Bow can we produce a nation o% &ore e&otionally literate peopleJ

"eon: E&otionally literateJ

Ste#e: Deople who %eelH ;ell3 I thin/ our ethical practice is the way %orward$

"eon: I value being able to sit here with you guys and tal/ about all these &atters that
&atter$ It contributes to &y sanity when I=& %eeling o%%+balance or twisted$ That=s not Aust
because we=re tal/ing about topics o% i&&ediate concern$ It=s also because even i% we=re not
speci%ically addressing the content o% how we %eel in the conte9t o% our discussion3 our %eelings
are included$ ;e=re e&otional creatures and we=re not trying to hide that %ro& ourselves or one
another$ Now3 it=s i&portant %or &y sanity3 and %or &y %eeling that &y li%e is worth living3 to be
able to Aust be &ysel%3 to be open with people3 and &ove in a direction o% being less cut+o%%$ Now3
how do we enhance that possibility3 %or others as well as %or ourselvesJ Dartly by living in a
rela9ed and &ind%ul way3 as best we can3 at every &o&entFattending to what=s going on %or
each o% us and between us3 by re&inding ourselves and each other that pro%ound responsibility
toward the 6ther and the 6thers and a /inder Austice will have their best chance and nourish&ent
where people are in touch with their nature as e&bodied3 sensing3 %eeling beings who are
thought%ul and inspired3 tuned+in to the breath o% li%e and to the spiritual di&ension$ 2ll that goes
together$

Ste#e: The trouble with the ter& @e&otional intelligence= is that it=s beco&e popularised$
It=s still &e+centred3 in other words it=s still how do I use &y e&otions intelligently to get aheadJ
2nd I don=t thin/ that that=s really what we=re actually on about$

!ob: No$

Ste#e: But that=s how it=s o%ten being interpreted$ In other words3 i% I de%er instant
grati%ication3 that would be s&arter3 because then I get &ore as a result o% the de%erred
grati%ication3 in ter&s o% the way that I want to be$

"eon: That re&inds &e o% the answer I gave to Ronnie=s ?uestion one night3 in a se&inar
he Aointly gave with BeinG Cassirer nearly twenty+%ive years ago3 as to what we understood by
@cast your bread upon the waters$ 2s I described in 6.). Lain"4 8reative )estroyer, &y response
provo/ed his rage and his shouting at &e3 repeatedly3 QIou=re spiritually stupid. 2nd i% you have
any sense le%t you=ll go to BeinG and be" hi& to teach you$R I had responded in ter&s o% it
co&ing bac/ to you i% you cast it out$ ;ell3 that=s an ego+centric3 sel%ish way o% thin/ing$ It=s not
toward the 6ther3 and it=s not pro%ound givingC it=s not @gi%ting=$

Ste#e: But you=re as/ing how we &a/e a shi%t in social relations3 %a&ilies3 children and
with others$ Let &e Aust say it=s really being able to be in touch with the otherness o% the other
person$ That=s what it really involves$ Now that is very hard when we=re so wound up with
ourselves$ 2nd we all are3 and no+one can deny that$ It re?uires constant vi"ilance to realise that
you have to &a/e the shi%t o% puttin" the Other first, each and every ti&e anew$

!ob: ;hat on earth is the 4:CD wanting to contribute to the 6ther and to the world and
to e&otional relationsJ It=s doing nothing e9cept %eathering its own nest$ It=s trying to &a/e sure
its individual &e&bers will get higher rates3 and get certi%ied when the govern&ent decide that
they thin/ that they /now what psychotherapists are$ It=s got nothing to do with the real thing$

Ste#e: I agree$ It=s disguised itsel% as consu&er protection3 but it=s a protection rac/et$

!ob: But it=s got nothing to do with goodnessH

"eon: That=s right$

!ob: ;hat collectively should the %riends o% R$<$ Laing do about the %act that one
particular &e&ber o% his %a&ily see&s to be suppressing publication o% his %inal boo/J Steve was
tal/ing about Socrates' they poisoned the guy in the end because o% his views and his
outspo/enness$

Ste#e: It=s not dissi&ilar$FLpausesMF;ell nu&ber one3 the &anuscript is not in &y view
ready to be published$ It really is %antastic in ter&s o% absolute Aewels3 but it=s not really wor/ed
through as set and readable$ I thin/ Ronnie was rethin/ing hi&sel% through Levinasian eyes3
through an encounter with the otherness o% the 6ther$ 8or instance3 he was considering Aealousy
in ter&s o% the way we relate3 in the sense o% not Aust &y idea o% you and your idea o% &e3 but the
whole third di&ension o% love$ I% I love you3 you=re a you3 you=re inti&ate3 you=re near &e$ 2nd
then what happens i% you get inti&ate with so&eone elseJ get Aealous$ >ealousy wor/s as
%ollows' li&agine you=re thin/ing and spea/ing o% !e, when you=re with that so&eone else3 as
Aust another he, rather than as the beloved you, the !e with who& we have had our love
relationship$ This shi%t o% pronoun changes everythin"= it is insidious and can &a/e people craGy$
2nd I=& sure Ronnie lived through a lot o% that$ Be was tal/ing as he tended to tal/ best3 %ro&
his own personal agony$ Now he=s got great insights and &aterial there3 but it really needs to be
wor/ed through and rewor/ed3 and o% course he=s not here to do that$

!ob: Leon3 you were telling &e how sti&ulated you were by that boo/ o% conversations
between the philosopher and the &on/$

"eon: I appreciated the boo/ The ,onk and the 3hilosopherby >ean+8ran2ois Ravel and
Matthieu Ricard$ They=re %ather and sonF%ather3 a senior 8rench Aournalist and %or&er
philosophy teacher and author3 and son3 a &an who gave up a career as a research scientist to
beco&e a &on/3 in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition$ It=s an intelligent and clear dialogue between
one i&&ersed in and %aith%ul to ;estern3 scienti%ic3 rational thought and another deeply involved
in Buddhist religious and philosophical thought and practice$ They both relate their positions and
criti?ues to their li%e e9perience3 but whereas the son is %a&iliar with the cutting edge o% ;estern
culture3 the %ather hasn=t had any e9perience o% the &editative and spiritual practices3 or their
bene%its3 that the son has had$ The %ather3 also author o% several boo/s on philosophy3 virtually
neglects considering the pheno&enological and @post+pheno&enological= &ove&ent in
continental European philosophy o% the last hundred years$ Be re%ers to Merleau+Donty once and3
I=& pretty sure3 never re%ers to Busserl3 Beidegger3 Levinas or <erridaFthin/ers whose wor/s
are &uch &ore tuned+in to what the &on/ is tal/ing about and where he=s spea/ing %ro&3 even i%
they don=t actually address Buddhist thought$ The %riendship and wor/ing relationship Steve and
I have developed over the last decade and a hal% has been nourished by that dialogue$ I showed
hi& a Buddhist sutra on @e&ptiness= one day and it brought to &ind3 %or hi&3 writings o%
E&&anuel Levinas and >ac?ues <errida3 who were both deeply in%or&ed by Busserl and
Beidegger Oa&ong others3 o% courseP$ 2nd so a whole tradition o% ;estern philosophy that Steve
and I are involved with and that would3 to &y &ind3 %ind &uch in Buddhist thought ?uite
co&panionable and provocative3 is not &entioned at all in this boo/$ But beyond the content o%
what they said3 it was heartening to witness their #ay of speakin" to each other$ It was respect%ul3
war&3 attentive3 responsive3 provocative3 and they were clearly enAoying each other=s co&pany
and conversations$

6ne o% the things that co&es across in the boo/ is how3 in Buddhist teachings3 perhaps
especially Tibetan Buddhist teachings3 the teacher is not separate %ro& the teaching' the
&essenger is the &essage$ There are also cautions3 elsewhere3 to attend to the teaching and not
the teacher3 not to get hung up on the teacher and any %eelings or Audge&ents you &ay %ind
yoursel% having in relation to the teacher3 once you=ve care%ully decided that he or she is your
teacher and have been accepted as a student$ But a @teacher= is &eant to be one who e!bodies
the teachin", whose way o% li%e is in accord with the teachings learned and trans&itted3 whose
presence conveys the teaching o% the way taught as &uch as does the content o% what=s spo/en
by hi&$ ;hile seeing a teacher in that way has its risks, and &ay open one to being &isled or
even abused3 i% one has chosen care%ully and basically trusts the
6ther3 then one allows %or the teacher=s singular character3 whatever apparent %oibles and
eccentricities he or she has3 and accepts that individual without getting too distracted or hung up
on those characteristics$ Iou &ight even later %ind that there was &ethod to his or her see&ing
&adness or ?uir/s$ In Buddhist traditions the teacher e&bodies the teachings3 such as teachings
on i&per&anence3 and on the inter+dependent origination o% all pheno&ena3 such that there can=t
be any autono&ous3 independently e9isting entityFor no @sel%=$ Be or she e&bodies the opening
o% the heart3 the heart of co!passion, realised through seeing deeply into the nature of
pheno!ena, into what and how things are3 and are not$

The re?uire&ent %or a teacher to e&body teachings in this way is rarely %ound in
acade&ic philosophy or theology$ Socrates see&ed to have so&ething li/e that going %or hi&3 but
it=s surely rare today$ 2nd one doesn=t o%ten %ind psychotherapists and counsellors3 or groups o%
the&3 living and relating in a way one would %ind especially e9a&plary$ Now the therapist isn=t
setting out to be a spiritual teacher or a guide3 whether or not he or she &ay be set up to be one
by a patient or client$ But surely i% I=& intending to practise ethically3 that is3 being responsible
%or the 6ther3 even %or the 6ther=s responsibility3 in a way that ta/es nothing away %ro& the
6therFand certainly not any o% his or her responsibilityFthen how pro%oundly I=& able to be
responsible in &y own li%e can=t be beside the point$ My ability to respond3 in responsibility3
andEor &y li&itations in being able to do so outside the therapy space3 would al&ost certainly
a%%ect how I a& and a& not able to be in relation to the 6ther with who& I=& @%ace+to+%ace= in
the therapy situation$

I thin/ Ronnie would have agreed with the spirit o% what I=& saying3 and I thin/ &ost o%
the ti&e3 &ore than &ost others I=ve /nown in the therapy or acade&ic %ields3 he e&bodied that
integrity and responsibility3 though he would have been the %irst to ad&it that he could and did
lurch. ;hen he was around3 the D2 was &ore concerned with spiritual nourish&ent and
creativity3 with yoga3 &editation3 and with how we live our lives with each other3 than has been
the case since$ I hope we &ight get bac/ to that as a group$ It=s a &atter o% whether the &e&bers
o% the group are &ore concerned with being associated in the na&e o% psychoanalytic
psychotherapy3 or with a pro%ound in?uiry into the sources o% su%%ering and the possibility and
path o% radical release %ro& su%%ering3 where psychoanalysis has a contribution to &a/e3 and can
and ought to be in the service o% that3 but isn=t the alpha and o&ega o% the &atter$

6ne=s way o% being is absolutely the point$ 2ny ti&e we notice a separation o% our way o%
being %ro& that which we=re intending3 aspiring to andEor pro%essing3 there=s a split3 and we each
ought to chec/ out where we=re co&ing %ro& and what we=re on about$ ;hat are these Buddhist
teachers on aboutJ ;ell3 they=re on about a#akenin"@ They=re on about awa/ening %ro& our
usual conditioned #ay of bein" that=s really screwed+up$ Most o% the ti&e we=re living in
i"norance, in varieties of stressed.out !adness and delusion, not even enAoying &uch o% our
lives3 o%ten doing ourselves and other people in3 running on and seeing through so&e pro"ra!!e
we=ve been progra&&ed with$ I &ean we=re seein" throu"h the %lenses of these pro"ra!!es,
@seeing through a glass dar/ly=$ 2wa/ening involves seein" throu"h and beyond the! in the
ety&ological sense o% dia"nosin"Fa thorough perceiving3 discerning or /nowing throughFand
not being ta/en in by the&3 not being driven by the&$

I very &uch li/e the title o% Steve=s paper3 @2wa/ening to Love' Ronnie Laing=s
Dheno&enological Therapy=$ It=s a %ine paper and %ine title$ ;ith the loosening or dissolving o%
constraints and distortions o% our progra&&ing3 there is a /ind o% #isin".up, an awa/ening to a
/ind o% wisdo&3 a /inder wisdo&3 to a wisdo& o% /indness3 a co&passionate wisdo&$ Not
pri&arily the love o% wisdo&3 the philia o% sophia, so &uch as the #isdo! of love.

Ste#e: >ean+8rangois and Matthew were tal/ing about psychoanalysis and psychotherapy3
and Matthew says3 QIn the presence o% people who have undergone psychoanalysis3 in the little
e9perience I have3 I=ve always had the i&pression that they=ve probably got to the &ost dra&atic
co&ponents o% their proble& by tracing the& bac/ to early childhood$ But they hadn=t been able
to dispel or dissipate the &ost deep+seated root o% what was inhibiting their inner %reedo&$ 2%ter
so &any years o% trying they didn=t really see& to radiate serenity and %ul%il&ent$ They o%ten
re&ained vulnerable3 tense and an9ious$R

"eon: Getting in touch with unac/nowledged thoughts and %eelings3 and with ways
you=ve had3 until now3 o% getting and staying out o% touch3 is really vital$ It can help you co&e to
your senses3 a#aken to your senses. 2nd co&ing to your senses3 awa/ening to your senses3 and
to your resistances to doing so3 helps you get &ore in touch3 and so on$

!ob: I% this is going to be the last session we &ight as well put our cards on the table$ To
&e they=re totally inco&patible processes$ Buddhis& is one thing3 psychotherapy is another$

Ste#e: I thin/ there is a convergence in the ai& o% relieving su%%ering$ That is the ai& o%
both$

!ob: ;ell I thin/ you i&pute to the average psychotherapist or psychoanalyst a
co&passion which I=& not convinced e9ists$

Ste#e: That &ay well be true$ But that doesn=t &ean though that the intentions don=t
converge$ Now another ?uestion is to what e9tent there can be s/il%ul &eans that psychotherapy
can learn %ro& Buddhis&3 but also Buddhis& &ight need to learn %ro& psychotherapy$ So whilst
there &ay be parallel trac/s3 it doesn=t &ean that conversation is not possible$

!ob: In what way could Buddhis& learn %ro& psychoanalysisJ

Ste#e: 8irst o% all I need to sayFputting cards on tablesFthat &y connection with
Buddhis& is only a very rudi&entary and a very basic one$ I=& not a practitioner so I have no
realisation o% practice3 in the way that say Leon does$ But %ro& &y understanding3 as %ar as I
have been able to glean3 and as %ar as I have been able to see parallels with what areas o%
conte&plative wor/ that I do have connections with in pheno&enological disciplines3 it see&s
that there=s a gap in Buddhist wor/ in the relationship between the sel% and the other person$ 6%
course3 there are Buddhist Dsychotherapy 6rganisations$ ;e &et a lady at the Laing day Oat the
Royal College o% Dsychiatrists in >anuary #..-P %or e9a&ple3 who is part o% a group in Ger&any
called :aruna$

"eon: It=s a Sans/rit word we o%ten translate as co&passion$

Ste#e: They try and &eld psychotherapy and Buddhis&$ They=re Buddhist
psychotherapists$ 2nd they have one practice they call @e9change=$ I ?uote %ro& their brochure'
QE9change is based on the assu&ption that there is no %unda&ental duality between onesel% and
others$ 6ne can train in e9periencing the heart and &ind o% others while &aintaining an open and
attentive posture$ In conte&plative psychologyRFwhich is what they call the&selvesFRthis
process is re%erred to as e9change$ In practice e9change &eans that we &a/e ourselves available
to others by our willingness to %eel their %eelings and directly e9periencing their state o% &ind$R
Now I thin/ that that is a very Buddhist idea that I ?uestion3 because I thin/ that individuals
don=t e9perience directly each other=s states o% &ind3 and that it doesn=t honour the other
person=s otherness and di%%erence even to thin/ that that would be desirable or use%ul$ ;hat I do
thin/3 o% course3 is that the whole o% attach&ent to a sel% or an ego which Buddhis& points to as
the source o% su%%ering needs to be dissipated or liberated and e9pelled3 and once that happens o%
course we realise that the whole notion o% a sel% is an illusion3 at a certain level o% liberated
understanding or enlighten&ent in a Buddhist sense$ 2nd o% course in that way there is a &ind o%
which we all are part3 a spiritual &ind+strea&3 which we are all swi&&ing inC then individuality
is dispelled$ But I thin/ that there=s a need in Buddhis& %or a better understanding o% the sel%+to+
other relationship in ter&s o% s/il%ul &eans and healing practices$ 2nd also there is a need %or a
better understanding o% &ale and %e&ale relationships$

"eon: Ronnie was drawing on his own e9perience and observations and %ro& the
pheno&enological tradition when he wrote3 in the early #.0"s3 that one cant e&perience
anothers e&perience. 6ne can only infer e&perience %ro& behaviour$ But by the ti&e he went on
his sabbatical in Sri Lan/a and India3 practising di%%erent /inds o% &editation including with a
her&it priest o% :ali in a &ountain cave3 he was spea/ing &ore openly about e9perience and the
possibility o% e9perience beyond what &ost o% usFe9cept %or &ystics3 initiates into various
esoteric teachings3 sha&ans3 sorcerers3 or those regarded as &ad andEor &addeningFcan clai&
to have e9perienced or thin/ possible to e9perience$ Be wrote in one o% his boo/s3 The (acts of
Life, o% an Indian scientist doing laser research in >apan$ ;hen Ronnie &et this guy in Benaras3
where he was a pro%essor o% che&istry3 he told Ronnie how an Indian &an ca&e into his lab in
>apan3 where he was doing his research3 told the pro%essor to return to Benaras3 put a hand on his
shoulder as they wal/ed to the door3 and disappeared into thin airFde&aterialised$ There had
been no %urther conversation between the&3 and the pro%essor returned to Benaras$ Ronnie &ade
no co&&ent on what he reported there3 but later says that %or &any people he &et in India3 Qthe
conscious beyond consciousness o% the holy &an is at one with the 6neand 2ll3 wherein all
possibilities resideR$ 2nd then he goes on to conclude the boo/ with ?uestionings and
considerations o% how to live one=s li%e3 &ostly inspired by his relationship to and understanding
o% Christian teachings$
In the late #.("s or early #.-"s he told &e a Tibetan Tol/u had as/ed hi& why he hadn=t
developed or cultivated clairvoyance. 2nd he considered that indeed perhaps he should$ I
co&&ented that it see&ed to &e that there was no point trying to see/ out or develop such
powers3 as they were secondary to the &ain point o% a spiritual path$ Be %elt in that they could be
used to help others3 it could well be neglect%ul and irresponsible not to develop such abilities$ So
there was an instance where he was not doubting the possibility o% such practices3 nor that they
could be used %or good$ But I don=t re&e&ber hi& &a/ing %urther co&&ent on &aterialising and
de&aterialising$

!ob: ;ell i% you read ,ad to be *or!al he says i% he really wanted to he could de+
&aterialiseF

"eon: 6h3 he says thatJH

!ob: Ies3 what can you sayJ

"eon: ;ell I never heard hi& say that$ <id you as/ hi& anything about thatJ

!ob: Ies3 but I didn=t really understand what he was tal/ing about$ I=& not really sure he
did$

Ste#e: ;ell there are reports o% &ystical powers$FLpausesMF;hilst it &ay be per%ectly
appropriate within certain traditions to enter a trans+personal real& in order to have a better
relationship to the su%%ering o% dying and what goes on a%ter death3 in this real& there=s a danger
o% doing violence to the individuality o% the other person$ So even i% you could3 I don=t thin/ that
it=s appropriate to enter this real& on the whole$

"eon: So&e o% the characters that have had3 or are reputed to have had3 these abilities
that see& e9traordinary to us3 have used the& %or goodF

Ste#e: They haven=t only used the& %or good$

"eon: They=ve also &ade the distinction3 li/e people in the ;est do3 between white
&agic and blac/ &agic$ 6ne can also use the& %or evil$ So because one has these abilities does
not &ean that one is a good person3 or that one is going to use the& %or the good o% others$ But
one could$

Ste#e: There=s a contradiction in what they then &ean by others3 and good$ The otherness
we spea/ o% is rooted &ore in the Tal&udic Bebraic tradition and the wor/ o% Levinas$ I thin/
there is a real clash3 a real %unda&ental di%%erence about what otherness and goodness &eans
between &ystics and ethicists$

"eon: I=& not sure there is3 or that such a di%%erence points to a necessary con%lict or
contradiction$

Ste#e: ;ell that=s where we have a discussion$

!ob: Let Steve e9plain why he thin/s there is3 and then you can counter+attac/$

"eon: I don=t want to @counter+attac/=F

!ob: ;ell co&&ent on it$

"eon: I want to thin/ this through together$

Ste#e: ;ell I started out by spea/ing o% honouring di%%erence3 and di%%erence is in%inite3
and so %irst o% all you can=t /now another person and then enable the& to be other3 in any way$ To
try to /now the& is a reduction o% the& into the sa&e3 or oneness$ So this sa&eness or oneness is
actually a debasing o% the in%inite otherness o% every 6ther$ It=s a &is+I would say+ta/e3 a
&isunderstanding o% that otherness3 as I understand it3 or as I thin/ that the tradition that Levinas
is alluding to understands it$ So there can=t be3 by de%inition3 an understanding o% another person3
and any atte&pt to understand is not good in that sense$ It would be a violation because one
would appropriate so&ething o% that otherness into the sa&e$ It would be &a/ing the 6ther into
your idea o% the 6ther$ 2nd that would still be you. Letting the 6ther be is "oodness, which is a
responsibility$ Responsibility is very &uch here and now in the Levinasian understanding o%
responsibility$ It=s how you respond particularly to other people=s responsibilities in their daily
li%e$ It see&s to &e the Buddhists would say that the responsibility o% everyone is eventually to
be liberated %ro& the ordinary daily li%e3 to recognise that this state o% li%e is attach&ent and
su%%ering3 and one hopes that one=s /ar&a could be such that one can develop to the point o%
being released %ro& the wheel o% rebirth$ I believe
That would not be responsible %ro& a Levinasian point o% view$ 2lthough I do agree that
there are the Bodhisattvas who won=t allow the&selves to be liberated until all others are
liberated3 who are @putting the 6ther %irst= in a sense$

"eon: ;ithin the Mahayana and the NaArayana traditions3 that is3 within the northern
Buddhist bodies o% teachings and practice3 the point o% the e9ercise isn=t Aust to liberate onesel%3
but to help liberate all others %ro& su%%ering$ The Bodhisattva literally vows to do whatever he or
she can3 %or as long as it ta/es3 to liberate and %ree all sentient beings$ Bow can a part o% an
in%inite3 interdependent networ/ be truly liberated without the networ/ being %ully liberatedJ 2nd
so within a %ra&ewor/ where so&e believe in reincarnation3 whatever that is3 they &ay not be
trying to chec/ out %ro& the cycle o% births and deaths3 over and out3 once and %or all3 but are
ready to /eep co&ing bac/3 whatever that &eans3 until everyone is able to be %ree$ It=s an in%inite
tas/$

Ste#e: Can I as/ you a ?uestion about thatJ

"eon: Can you wait a %ew &inutesJ I don=t want to lose the thread$ Than/s$ 2s %or your
co&&ent on the ordinary li%e3 Buddhis& isn=t about trying to %ree people %ro& ordinary li%e$ @
Ordinary life is the #ay serves as a /oan in RinGai Sen$ The student @sits= with it until it reveals
itsel%3 until the truth o% it is realised3 with the student=s whole being$ Ma/ing and eating brea/%ast3
wal/ing to the bus stop3 sitting here tal/ing with you3 as well practising yoga or sitting in
&editation3 or pissing and shitting3 aren=t separate %ro& Buddha nature$ It=s a &atter o%
awa/ening to the e9traordinariness o% the ordinary$ 2nd3 %reed o% the li&iting constraints o%
conditioning3 being &ore open+&inded and open+hearted and &ore open to the ordinary and3 I
would say3 to the 6ther$

Now I=& co&ing to your assertion o% a %unda&ental di%%erence between3 on the one hand3
Bebraic and Levinasian3 and on the other hand3 possible Buddhist &eanings and understandings3
or e?uivalents or appro9i&ations o% the 6ther3 responsibility and goodness$ Is there a con%lict
here between views and practicesJ I% there is3 what is itJ

I ta/e your point that any atte&pt to /now the 6ther3 or approaching the 6ther through
/nowledge as we usually construe it3 reduces the 6ther to the Sa&e3 &a/es the 6ther a @horse in
&y stable=3 appropriates so&ething o% the otherness o% the 6ther3 and thus is doing the 6ther a
violence3 as well as &issing the 6ther$ The 6ther=s alterity eludes &y trying to grasp it$ I% I=&
not necessarily doing violence to the 6ther3 there is certainly a ris/ o% doing so$ I=& already on a
slippery slope$

By the way3 ta/e it as given that I=& spea/ing %ro& inade?uate or only partial realisations
o% what I=& tal/ing about3 %ro& gli&pses or3 at best3 brie% soAourns dwelling where I=& spea/ing
%ro& and living what I=& spea/ing o%$ Ta/ing seriously what we=re tal/ing about and being
re&inded o% it again and again3 when again and again I get %orget%ul and un&ind%ul3 helps &e to
dwell in that vicinity &ore rather than less o% the ti&e$

So the Bodhisattva declines to attain %inal release %ro& the world3 %ro& the birth+death
cycle %uelled by ignorance3 sensing3 na&ing what=s sensed3 craving what=s na&ed3 clinging to
what one craves %or3 and so on$ There are detailed analyses o% what &a/es this #orld of illusion
and sufferin""o round3 and i% @love= &a/es that world go round3 that=s not a @love= that=s %ree o%
ego+centric considerations and directed %ro& the heart and out toward the 6ther$ It=s attach!ent
to e"ocentric desire that &a/es that world go around3 /eeping it in a spin3 spinnin" a yarn that
will /eep people e&eshed in the %abric o% su%%ering$

Now there=s a sense in which there=s no 6ther in Buddhist thought as there=s no sel%
either3 no separate3 independent @entityness= o% any /ind$ There=s inter.bein". But it see&s to &e
that there=s a sense too in which we can say that the Bodhisattva can relate to the singular
otherness o% the 6ther3 as well as see the 6ther and all the other 6thersFincluding hi& or
hersel% as another 6therFas %ellow beings each caught up in sel%ish and un&ind%ul patterns o%
e9perience and behaviour$ ;e prevent or delay ourselves and others %ro& wa/ing+up and being
released3 or liberated3 or %reed %ro& &indless patterns o% generating su%%ering %or ourselves andE
or others$ 8or that we re?uire a dissolvin" or cuttin" of bonds of bonda"e, or an unknottin" and
un#indin" when we=re tied in /nots or wound up$

Derhaps an enlightened being sees the distinction between @&e= and @not &e= as illusory
and &erely no&inal3 at one level$ 2t the sa&e ti&e there hasn=t been a loss o% co&&on3 or
unco!!on, sense$

Now the Bodhisattva de%erring %inal liberation in wor/ing %or the liberation o% others
suggests that otherness3 in so!e sense3 is being ac/nowledged3 that there is roo& %or diversity
within the non+duality$ But you &ay insist that it loo/s very &uch as though the Bodhisattva is
reducing or erasing the pro%ound sin"ularity of the alterity of the Other, which Levinas insists on3
and which is a &ost po#erful and wonder%ul and provocative part o% his discourse on &y
responsibility %or the 6ther3 even %or the 6ther=s responsibility$

So I=d li/e to &a/e another distinction here$ The Buddhist sche&e Aust described can be
thought o% as relating to &atters o% ontolo"y0o% beingFand o% pheno!enolo"yFo% what
appears$ Levinasian responsibility, however3 is notontolo"ical or pheno!enolo"ical, but ethical.
The calling o% the Bodhisattva3 how he or she %eels called and called upon to treat others3 is at an
ethical3 not an ontological level$

Ontolo"ically, &aybe there is a /ind o% reduction o% the 6ther to the Sa&e3 whereby so&e
/ind o% &erging3 andEor attune&ent3 andEor sy&pathetic or e&pathic resonance is %acilitated$ 2nd
there &ay be varieties o% appropriation3 or invasion3 or crossing o% boundaries that we &ight not
welco&e being crossed3 and &ight be alar&ed at people wanting to get up to such tric/s3
however well &otivated$ 2%ter all3 @the road to hell is paved with good intentions=3 and
so&ewhere the respect %or3 and even the @%act= o%3 the absolute alterity o% the 6ther see&s to be
going out the window$ But perhaps it=s possible to thin/3 and perhaps it=s possible to practise, at
an ethical level not co!pro!isin" the alterity of the Other, and having the hu&ility and wisdo&
to realise that any such tric/s or gi%ts are only o% value3 and should only be brought into play3
when responding to the call o% the 6ther3 and in being obliged to respond in responsibility to this
6ther3 that is3 bring these gi%ts into play in the service o% one=s pro%ound responsibility %or the
6ther$ This @6ther= by the way obliges &e but also3 in calling and obliging3 calls &e into being
&e and calls &e out o% &y narcissistic prison$ This singular 6ther3 whose alterity precisely
cannot return to &e3 cannot be &ade &ine3 calls &e into responsible being' Q=I= a& sEhe who
responds to your call$ 2t your serviceH Than/ you very &uch %or calling &e out o% &y
co&placency3 arrogance3 insolence3 greed3 anger3 distractionFThan/ you %or calling &e and
Aolting &e out o% all thatHHR

This 6ther that I a& responsible %or3 then3 is also &y teacher and &y helper on the path
to liberation %ro& sel%ishness3 violence and seeing through a lens that distorts and con%usesH 2nd
liberation %ro& su%%eringF&y own and that which I generate %or others$ 2s I don=t thin/ in ter&s
o% @enlighten&ent= as a once and %or all3 absolute3 #""X3 never any slipping or sliding bac/ /ind
o% @state=3 then even enlightened beingsFand even &ore so the rest o% usFcan be grate%ul to
those who call on us to be responsible$ It=s a do&ain o% @gi%ting=$

Dut another way3 awa/ened beings have seen that we=re all interrelated$ None o% us are
separate selves3 or entities as such3 although we &ista/e ourselves and each other to be
independent rather than inter+dependently e9isting$ So within that there=s a sense in which an
adept3 having arrived at the realisation o% i&per&anence and inter+dependent origination o%
@everything=3 o% the non+entitiness o% @anything=3 !i"ht be able to tune in to another in a way that
see&s e9traordinary3 i&possible even3 and even undesirable to a pheno&enologist and to a post+
pheno&enological3 Levinasian ethical person$ But this tuning in is in the service o% responsibility
%or the 6ther$ I% a pheno&enologist3 nevertheless3 were able to witness such a happening3 I
wonder i% he=d e9clai&' I can see it wor/s in practiceFbut does it wor/ in theoryJH

;hen it co&es to responsibility %or the 6ther3 to &y vowing to do whatever I can do to
save or liberate all sentient beings %ro& su%%ering and %ro& all this conditioned3 progra&&ed
world o% e9perience3 there=s the accepting o% a great and in%inite responsibility$ Now there=s a
sense in which @we=re all %ingers o% the sa&e hand=3 and perhaps &y co&passion arises %ro& that
realisation o% a non+di%%erence or o% inter+dependence such that there=s no autono&ous
independent entity or @Sel%=For 6ther$ But I would argue that co&passion arising as andEor
in%or&ed by responsible relatedness to the alterity o% the 6ther is part o% a &ore pro%ound
&ove&ent and &ay even be a higher and deeper co&passion and a deeper and higher love3 i% it
&a/es any sense to co&pareF

So the distinction I want to &a/e is between the ontolo"ical and pheno!enolo"ical on
the one hand3 and the ethical on the other$ Non+duality has its place at the ontological+
pheno&enological level o% Buddhist discourse3 but not3 I thin/3 at the ethical$ I=& now not at all
sure I /now what I=& tal/ing about but I thin/ there=s a thought there worth thin/ing through and
aroundH

Ste#e: I thin/ now you &ay be introducing so&ething to Buddhis&$

"eon: Maybe$

Ste#e: Because you see3 one o% the ?uestions I wanted to as/F

"eon: ;hich is why I said in @6pen3 E&pty and 6ther=3 a tal/ I gave in #..!3 that i%
Levinas and Buddha &et3 they &ight enAoy each other=s co&pany and have so&ething to teach
each other$

Ste#e: I thin/ so$

"eon: 2nyhow3 than/s %or allowing &e to try to lay that out$

Ste#e: ;ell what I was saying is that I %ind3 %or e9a&ple3 in this issue o% the Bodhisattva3
that there &ay be an i&plicit contradiction which is not resolved with your distinctions$ 6n the
one hand3 the goal %or the practice o% liberating through &editating3 and puri%ying3 and thus
attaining a /ind o% awa/ening and wisdo& and love and co&passion3 is so that one will then3 at
so&e point along the way3 co&e bac/ as a Bodhisattva who can be liberated in one li%eti&e$ 6n
the other hand3 the Bodhisattva de%ers liberation inde%initely until all are liberated$ 2lso3 it is
clai&ed that there are adepts who co&e bac/ and are liberated in their li%eti&e$ Tibetans spea/ o%
adepts who die3 leaving behind only nails and hair$ These adepts see& to have so&ehow attained
to a /ind o% absolute relationship with their Buddha nature$ 2ccording to this way o% seeing3 we
all have this potential3 but they see& to have realised it and been liberated %ro& rebirth$F
LpausesMFThey are no longer relative$ Iet it=s also said that they co&e bac/ as teachers again$

"eon: Iou=re re%erring to the @rainbow body= in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition$ I don=t
thin/ they are thought to return as @incarnated=$ But that ta/es us3 I thin/3 too %ar a%ield$ It=s a
rather advanced and esoteric &atterH Bob3 what do you &a/e o% thisJ

!ob: To &e it=s very di%%icult$

"eon: ;e have to unpac/ it$ I thin/ you &ay be unclear about certain distinctions so&e
&a/e within the various Buddhist traditions$ In the Binayana3 or southern Buddhist tradition3 the
practitioner is pri&arily concerned with his or her own liberation3 with chec/ing out3 over and
out3 %ro& this cycle o% births and deaths$ Not to have to return to this sea o% su%%ering is seen as a
blessing3 a boon3 a great relie%3 and the practitioner goes %or it$ But in the northern Buddhist
traditions3 as I was saying be%ore3 the practitioner is invited to have what=s ta/en to be3 or taught
to be3 a higher aspiration3 that is3 to de%er one=s %inal @over and out= %ro& this world o% su%%ering
and illusion3 the world o% @ sa.!sa.ra., until one can ta/e all sentient beings along with one$ 6r3
put another way perhaps3 one could say that no.one is liberated and free until all are, that that=s
si!ply ho# thin"s are, and so&e realise that while others &ay not$
I thin/ the point Steve was addressing3 and that I was tryin" to respond to3 is a subtle
point3 one that so!e Buddhist practitioner scholars would see so&e value in grappling with$ I
thin/ un%ettered thin/ing &atters and one doesn=t /now where it=s going to lead$ But I have a
sense that this &atter &ight actually &atter$

!ob: Tell &e$ E9plain$

"eon: 2nother ti&e$ I% I can$ I=d rather respond to your ?uestions as to what good any o%
this is when so&eone co&es to the door and then what about the @&eaning o% li%e=$ ;ell3
Buddhist teachings I=ve been &oved by3 &y understanding o% what Levinas is on about3 and
where he=s co&ing %ro&3 as well as <erridean deconstruction3 are all in%or&ing and inspiring &e
when so&eone co&es to the door3 in &y &eeting so&eone and in enabling a @Aust listening=$
>ustin the sense o% Aust being able to listen without laying anything onto it as &uch as possible3
and si&ply listening$ 2nd also a Aust listening that is o%%ering the possibility o% Austice$ Let &e
tell a little story or vignette %ro& &y practice$

There=s a wo&an who=s been co&ing to see &e %or a %ew &onths now3 on and o%%$ She=s
been ta/ing a voice training course with a @psychoanalytic= co&ponent to it$ 2nd she=s been
telling &e what goes on3 as she observes and e9periences it3 in the group$ Deople who articulate
their ta/e on what=s going on are told' QThat=s Aust your trans%erenceR$ It sounds to her li/e
psychobabble and what she tells &e sounds li/e that to &e too$ So i% she has so&e co&plaint3
criticis& or ?uestioning in relation to what=s going on3 she=s told QThat=s Aust your trans%erenceHR
2nd it=s driving her up the wall and probably o%% the course$ 2%ter hearing that several ti&es3 I
%ound &ysel% saying QIt=s not AustHR Because that sort o% reduction is not Aust$ 6ne %eels that one
is being treated unAustly by having what one is saying reduced to a %or&ula' @it=s Aust that=$ ;ell3
to hell with thatH It=s not +ust that@ 2nd it=s not +ust to spea/ to so&eone li/e that$ 2nd it=s
careless and sloppy to allow co&&ents li/e that to go une9a&ined$

Buddhist teachings have helped &e to drop3 to let go o% so&e o% the stu%% I=& holding
onto3 and have also re&inded &e and /eep re&inding &e to care about the 6ther$ Levinas does
this in a way that=s perhaps even &ore rigorous3 e9acting3 provocative and help%ul$ I o%ten %ind
&ysel% in so&e /ind o% egotistical i&prison&ent3 but I can be called by the 6ther to e&erge %ro&
&y own narcissis& and egotis&3 and sel%ish concerns and distractions3 to hear the 6ther3 and to
try to Aust listen and &a/e what happens between us so&ething that is going to be on the way to
helping the other person %ind the roots o% and release %ro& his or her su%%ering3 and being able to
beco&e %reed %ro& it in due course$ Levinas helps &e realise that in being &y responsibility3 the
6ther is also &y teacher$ 2nd there really is an i&plicit sense3 in Levinas and in Buddhis&3 that
each and every 6ther is3 at least potentially3 &y teacher$ Steve used that e9pression several years
ago3 in a Levinasian conte9t3 and it has really stayed in &y &ind3 and heart$ It=s a good one$

Ste#e: I=d li/e to respond to Bob=s ?uestion about the use o% these topics in the practice
o% psychotherapy$ 8irst o% all it=s i&portant to say that the practice o% psychotherapy has
potential$ ;e don=t /now what its li&itations are in advance3 and we are trying to develop it
%urther$ ;hat I would say is that it &ay be palace where Buddhist thin/ing and ethics can
converge in a ;estern setting$ Trying si&ply to practise the Buddhist way in the ;est &ight not
actually wor/ %or a ;estern person$ 2nd the sa&e could be the case in atte&pting to practise the
Levinasian ethic$ There=s a way that therapy &ight Aust be the place %or the rehearsal o% both o%
these conte&plative and ethical practices$ The trouble with the e&pirical approach is that it
wor/s when it deals with scienceFwith veri%iable3 e9peri&ental3 reproducible and reiterable
events$ It=s &uch less use%ul %or conte&plative wor/3 which is very singular and individual yet no
less rigorous3 although not a&enable to the sa&e /inds o% evidenceF%or e9a&ple3 to
&easure&ent$

"eon: That=s an i&portant pointFnot to the sa&e /inds3 because there is a /ind o%
evidence$ So&ething beco&es &ani%est$ So&ething beco&es evident$

Ste#e: But we=re tal/ing about people3 not things$ 2nd we=re tal/ing about people=s
relationships3 and we=re tal/ing about the &eaning o% e9isting$ Deople today are loo/ing %or an
art o% living$ The trouble is that with an e&pirical approach people are very sceptical$ They both
want @truth= but are sceptical o% it3 o% anything that=s on o%%er$ The point is that it=s i&portant to
be sceptical o% one=s scepticis&3 and doubt one=s doubts also$ Because otherwise there &ight not
be roo& %or open+heartedness$ I &ean openness to truths and goodness and things that are
otherwise than negative$ The proble& with living is that we=re %illed with a lot o% poisons$ 2 lot
o% these poisonsFhatred3 Aealousy3 attach&ent3 greed3 prideFBuddhists have identi%ied and
studied %or centuries$

"eon: Millennia$

Ste#e: Bow do we really disengage %ro& these poisonsJ Bow do we %ree ourselvesJ Bow
do we get these poisons out o% our syste&J I thin/ a lot o% the things that a lot o% the people who
co&e to &e in therapy are co&ing about is that they=re lea/ing poisons in their relationships
without realising it$ These poisons are poisoning their lives$

"eon: 2nd other people=s lives$

Ste#e: 2nd other people=s lives$ In order to &ove then %ro& sel%+centredness3 %ro& sel%+
&yopia3 you have to see that you yoursel% have everything to do with what=s going on around
you$ In %act it=s not about sel%+awarenessC awa/ening happens by participating in a relationship$
This is the possibility that therapy o%%ers$ Iou can=t see how you are relating3 unless you=re
relating$ It=s not li/e loo/ing in the &irror and seeing what you loo/ li/e Y you can=t loo/ into a
&irror and see your relationships$ To see your relationships with other people3 you need to have
another person$ The set+up has to be such to enable that to happen$ ;hich &eans %or e9a&ple
that you=re listened to3 in a way that in ordinary everyday li%e you=re probably not heard$ Iou
can=t e9pect to be3 because people are involved in getting so&ething %or the&selves and dealing
with their own proble&s$ They=re not necessarily there to be attentive3 to help you to be better
able to see how you are getting in your own way and screwing yoursel% up3 and3 by the way3 also
screwing the& up through the process$ Iou are &ore li/ely to get into %ights and argu&ents than
into sel%+e9a&ination$ ;hereas with therapy your only tas/ is to e9a&ine$ Now I thin/ a lot o%
the Buddhist teachings can beco&e s/il%ul &eans to %acilitate this process3 but even &ore so the
Levinasian approach$ 2t the end o% the day happiness co&es through attaining so&e /ind o% a
wisdo&3 a wising+up$ 2nd these are wisdo& teachings$

"eon: But again3 the wisdo& not being separate %ro& the co&passion$

Ste#e: ;ell a co&passion3 and also I would say love$

"eon: I=& including love$

Ste#e: Because there=s a di%%erence$

"eon: There are di%%erent /inds o% love$ Co&passion is one /ind o% love$ This see&s a
good point to return to the ?uestions Bob put to us about therapists receiving &oney %or
psychotherapy3 especially when we=re spea/ing o% therapy as ethics3 as awa/ening to love and
responsibility$ ;ithin the Buddhist teachings3 in the %irst discourse o% the Buddha3 right
livelihood is part o% the eight%old pathway to the e9tinction o% su%%ering$ I beca&e a physician3
and &y being a psychotherapist grew out o% &y being a physician3 and I have to &a/e &y
livelihood so&e way$ It see&s a better way to do it than being engaged in the production o%
goods andE or the provision o% services that &a/e onesel% and a %ew others &aterially wealthy but
&ay contribute little to the well+being o% others3 or to our li%e support syste&s3 or &ay even be
clearly har&%ul$ I have had trouble with ta/ing &oney3 and the %act that I o%ten lost what &oney I
had is a %unction o% having %elt con%used and a&bivalent about having the &oney$ I=ve also
thought3 at ti&es3 that I would pre%er not to be ta/ing &oney in direct transactions3 but doing it
through a third party or being supported by a co&&unity I served$ But I=ve neither been o%%ered
that nor thought it through su%%iciently3 including the downside ris/s and co&plications3 to see/ it
out$ I now thin/ it=s si&pler and cleaner being involved in the direct transaction$

Ste#e: There is a proble& with ta/ing &oney and being ethical in the Levinasian sense$
6r being co&passionate in the Buddhist sense$

"eon: Ies3 but one could argue that being a psychotherapist or a physician re?uires o%
one no &ore nor less as to being ethical and being responsible than i% one was head o% a
corporation or a school teacher or street sweeper3 politician or civil servant$ ;e=re all called by
the sa&e call to be responsible$ So I=& not ta/ing &oney %ro& people %or being ethical$ I% I
wasn=t ethical3 I si&ply couldn=t be doing as good a Aob3 in the sense o% goodness as well as
e%%ectiveness$

Ste#e: ;ell there are other 6thers %or who& you are responsibleFincluding your %a&ily$
There is right livelihood and also the Buddhist suggestion to si&pli%y your li%eF

"eon: That=s true$

Ste#e: 2nd we haven=t really done that ade?uately3 and so we=re still too attached to the
&oney+strea&$ 2nd I thin/ that we need to wor/ on this$ I share with you the thought o% a
di%%erent /ind o% an econo&yFperhaps to be supported by a co&&unity3 or live in a &ore si&ple
wayFwhich would be &ore salutary %or us and others$

"eon: I agree$ That=s very i&portant and we=ve not given that the attention and priority it
calls %or3 not in these conversations and3 &ore to the point3 not in our own lives$ 2nd I can thin/
o% very %ew people3 therapists or otherwise3 living outside o% spiritually based and directed
co&&unities3 who have even begun to address that$

I=d li/e to return now to Bob=s co&&ents on Buddhis& and psychotherapy$ There are a
good &any Buddhists3 and Buddhist teachers3 who don=t thin/ there need be a con%lict between
the two$ I=ve &et a group o% %our psychotherapists who are all students o% a particular Buddhist
teacher$ They were as/ed by their teacher to set up a psychotherapy training progra&&e inspired
by and based on Buddhist teachings and practices3 one that would be recognised as able to
?uali%y people to practise and be recognised by registration bodies in whatever countries they
operate in$ I was invited by these %our to %acilitate conversation and discussion and critical
thin/ing about the proAect between the&3 including what=s going on between the& and its
relevance to what they=re trying to do$ ;e %ound that we /ept co&ing bac/ to basic Buddhist
teachings3 and they were in agree&ent that i% they deviated %ro& %unda&ental Buddhist
teachings3 i% they were o%%+course3 that they needed to co&e bac/ on+course %or the sa/e o% the
integrity o% the course they were teaching as well as %or their own integrity and well+being$
Neither they nor I thought there was necessarily a con%lict between Buddhis& and
psychotherapy3 including accepting &oney %or therapy$ Because again3 there=s right livelihood$
;hat does that &eanJ ;ell so&e livelihoods are &ore right livelihooded than others$ 2nd
si&pli%ying one=s li%e has got to be a help in thin/ing this through care%ully and with integrity$

I=& interested in what Steve was saying3 how as Buddhis& %inds the %or&s that will help
it %lower in the ;est3 perhaps psychotherapy will co&e to be one o% the vehicles and %or&s
through which it ta/es root$ 2nd si&ilarly with Levinasian ethics$

!ob: @Su%%ering= in Buddhist thoughtFto &e it=s one o% the great discourses3 up there
with the best contributions o% Mar93 <arwin3 8reudF

"eon: 2nd soJ Iou said earlier that you thought Buddhis& and psychotherapy were
Qtotally inco&patible processes$ Buddhis& is one thing3 psychotherapy is another$R ;ell3 I thin/
you underesti&ate what Steve re%erred to as @s/il%ul &eans=$ I% people co&e to you because
they=re su%%ering3 you=ve got to %ind a way to &eet the& and respond to the&$ I% I started
lecturing the people who consulted &e on Buddhis&3 or told the& how they should live3 it would
assu&e and presu&e %ar to &uchF%or e9a&ple3 that I /now &ore about the right way to live
than they do$ Now I &ay be &ore wised+up3 in so&e senses3 about a right way to live than so&e
people3 &ainly through the tough e9perience o% having had to plough through a lot o% hard
ground &ysel%$ But I wouldn=t assu&e that I have a better way o% living3 and certainly a lot o% the
patients who co&e to see &e teach !e precious things about li%e and the right way to live$ Most
o% the people who co&e here would turn around and run3 or certainly not co&e bac/ a second
ti&e3 i% I started &oralising3 preaching3 telling the& how to live$ But I hope I can help the& %ind
their way o% release %ro& su%%ering and %inding happiness %or the&selves and others$ 2nd that
includes helping the& to ?uestion3 put the&selves in ?uestion3 beco&e &ore &ind%ulFand %ind
their way3 in their ti&e3 to rela9 and unwind and get %ree o% their sel%+centeredness$

Ste#e: Deople choose to co&e to Buddhis&$ Buddhis& is not a proselytising religion3 as
%ar as I /now$ But also I thin/ that in so&e %or&s o% Buddhis&3 particularly in Tibetan
Buddhis&3 there is an e&phasis on initiation by and devotion to a &aster$ Iou don=t tune in
unless you receive a trans&issionFa direct trans&ission$ Iou=re unli/ely to achieve realisation
and liberation without that$ I don=t thin/ ;esterners are going to want to devote the&selves to
that &aster tradition$ I thin/ there=s a proble& with a devotion to a &aster3 with the guru
approach$ I don=t ever want to be a guru$ But that doesn=t &ean that the idea o% i&per&anence
can=t in%or& &y wor/ as well$FLpausesMFBuddhis& spea/s o% &ind%ulness$ ;e approach
therapy with the intention o% awa/ening &ind%ulness3 which to &e is the only way through the
trap o% our @nu&bers=$

!ob: 6:$ This is the point then3 i% that=s the case3 do you believe that all those
psychotherapists who do not wor/ with these concepts and ideas3 that they are &issing the pointJ

Ste#e: I thin/ it=s a real danger$ I% their practice is not in%or&ed with &ind%ulness3 and the
spiritual path$

"eon: 2nd I do too$ 6% course because a psychotherapist thin/s he or she is %ollowing a
spiritual path3 indeed considers hi&sel% to be a Buddhist3 this doesn=t necessarily &ean that he=s
realised3 in depth3 the teachings o% that tradition$

Ste#e: It doesn=t &ean3 Aust because so&eone doesn=t consider the&selves to be a card+
carrying3 trans+personal psychologist or psychotherapist3 that they don=t necessarily e9ercise the
sa&e /ind o% co&passion and ethical relationship in their wor/$ They &ay believe in the
8reudian idea that all religion is illusion$ But this does not prevent the& %ro& listening
attentively and putting the other person %irst in their wor/$

"eon: I do thin/ that when we respond to other people=s su%%ering3 so&ething vital is lost
and one is &ore liable to be &isleading people i% there isn=t a strong ethical or spiritual
di&ension to the wor/$ 2s to your ?uestion about the &eaning o% li%e3 Bugh Craw%ord used to
spea/ o% the relationship between &eaning and &eaning%ulness3 including the &eaning%ulness o%
our lives3 and what we &ean to each other$ So I would say that the &eaning o% &y li%e is &uch
enhanced when I can spend ti&e with people li/e you3 who &ean so&ething to &e and %or who&
I &ean so&ething$

!ob: <on=t count on itH

"eon: This has so&ething to do with the &eaning o% li%e$ The heart$

!ob: ;ell you=re easily pleased$

Ste#e: No3 there=s no &eaning without what we !ean to one another. Meaning is %ound
in relation to what we &ean to one another$

A$TERWOR&

Readers wanting to receive in%or&ation on tal/s3 se&inars or wor/shops pertaining to
>ust Listening' Ethics and Therapy3 can do so by writing to in%o$please7Austlistening$co& and
re?uest to be on the >ust Listening e+&ail list$ Readers wishing to respond to the boo/ are
welco&e to e+&ail Leon or Steve at the sa&e address$

2 Austlistening$co& website &ay be under construction by the autu&n o% !""#$
Table of Contents
LISTENING
Copyright !""# by Steven Gans and Leon Redler$
Contents
2C:N6;LE<GEMENTS
INTR6<4CTI6N
CB2DTER 6NE
;BI DSICB6TBER2DIJ
CB2DTER T;6
8RE4< 2N< L6NE
CB2DTER TBREE
DBEN6MEN6L6GIC2L 2N<E5ISTENTI2L TBER2DI
CB2DTER 864R
R$ <$ L2ING
CB2DTER 8INE
B6B M4LL2N
CB2DTER SI5
D6LITICS 2N< DSICB6TBER2DI
CB2DTER SENEN
MIN< 2N< M4SIC
CB2DTER EIGBT
DSICB62N2LISIS 2N< TBE 6TBER
CB2DTER NINE
DERS6N2L S488ERING
CB2DTER TEN
S4ICI<E 2N< REBIRTB
CB2DTER ELENEN
TBE DBIL2<ELDBI22SS6CI2TI6N
CB2DTER T;ELNE
B4<<BISM 2N<DSICB6TBER2DI
28TER;6R<