Our Response Use of Resistive Temperature

Detectors as Partial Discharge Sensors in

Rotating Equipment


Claude Kane
Alexander Golubev
Electrical Diagnostic Innovations, Inc
Plymouth, MN


Igor Blokhintsev
Cal Patterson
Eaton Corporation - Predictive Diagnostics group
Minnetonka, MN and Burlington, ON

Abstract: Much debate and misinformation has been published in
various technical journals and in the marketplace on the use of
Resistive Temperature Detector (RTDs) as a sensor of partial
discharges (PD) in motors and generators. The authors have
more experience in this field of technology than any other
company in the world. With hundreds of applications working in
operating facilities and thousands of data records, this
technology is well proven. This paper addresses the concerns in
using RTDs as a PD sensor through sound technical analysis and
case studies.
Specific response to the paper titled Investigations Into the Use
of Temperature Detectors as Stator Winding Partial Discharge
Detectors presented at the 2006 IEEE International Symposium
on Electrical Insulation is made.
I. INTRODUCTION
Four new case studies are presented to once again
substantiate the use of this technology. One case study
compares signals from an RTD that is installed in the same
slot as a Stator Slot Coupler (SSC).
A point by point response to the paper referenced in the
abstract is not made, however, the conclusions of the 2006
paper are analyzed, and appropriate responses given.
In general, points made in the 2006 paper do not reflect our
experience and do not recognize the main issues in making PD
measurements in the high frequency ranges.
The main issue is signal attenuation and having limited
sensors, only a very small portion of the winding can be
monitored. Each individual sensor has a limited coverage area
and provides limited information as to the health of stator
insulation. Use of more sensors distributed throughout the
insulation will provide more information and the ability to
provide a better assessment of the health of the insulation.
Thousands of data records and dozens of calibrations show
that RTDs are a valuable and inexpensive, ready-to-go
technology for the measurement of PD in rotating equipment.
Based on both scientific evidence and actual field experience
this technology can not be rejected.



II. RESPONSE TO CONCLUSIONS OF THE 2006 PAPER

Table I reviews the conclusions from the 2006 paper and our
response to each point made.

TABLE I
RESPONSES TO THE CONCLUSIONS OF 2006 PAPER
2006 Paper Conclusion
Experiments have been conducted to determine the ability of RTDs in
stator windings to detect PD. Tests were done on operating and off-
line stators from motors, hydro generators and a turbine generator, as
well as more controlled simulated coils in slots. It is clear that in most
circumstances PD can be detected by the RTDs. However, rather than
the RTD itself detecting the PD, it is the lead (or wires) from the
RTD that detect the PD signal.
Response
This is a well known fact and has never been disputed. Our
experience shows that both the RTD and the wiring will detect the
PD signals. What difference does it make what picks up the PD? The
RTD or the wire? A PD signal is a PD signal. Antennae are used by
many companies to detect PD in large power transformers,
switchgear and other electrical equipment.
If one does not understand the physics of sensing does it mean that
there is no sensing?
In many cases the leads in a motor or generator act as an antenna.
For example, when a pulse was injected into phase B neutral, the
highest pulse was detected on the Phase C output lead with opposite
polarity.
2006 Paper Conclusion
Since the length of the lead wire, its proximity to high voltage stator
coils, as well as whether the lead is shielded or not are all usually
unknown it is very difficult to interpret the severity of any PD from
the magnitude of the detected signals.
Response
RTDs with spiral armor at times can attenuate the PD signals. This
again is not a new revelation and has been presented in technical
papers. Experience shows that in about 10-15% of the cases on older
large generators and rarely on motors, the RTDs have this spiral
armor and in 2-3% of those machines the spiral armor attenuates the
signals as the writers state. It looks like the authors have a sample of
One and therefore draw a conclusion that this is true for All
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Machines.
One can usually assess if the RTD wiring has this spiral armor during
the installation of the RTD Module/Sensor), therefore it is a known
and not an unknown, unlike what the authors state. The responders
have extensive experience in the use of RTDs and have calibrated
many systems to verify results. Thousands of data records are
available showing significant PD found deeper in windings detected
by the RTDs and not by coupling capacitors installed at the line
terminals.
Also, the health of the insulation should not be based on magnitude
alone. Pulse count, partial discharge intensity and phase resolved
data should be considered during evaluation. The same can be said
for traditional coupling capacitors. Without calibration, one has no
idea about true magnitude.
2006 Paper Conclusion
This is verified by the on-line and off-line PD tests on 8 stators where
the magnitude of the detected signals from the RTDs had no
correlation to either the detected PD using conventional sensors, nor
the known condition of the insulation.
Response
This is exactly what the responders have been saying for nearly ten
years. The main reasons there is little to no correlation between the
PD signals on the RTDs and the 80 pF coupling capacitors are
twofold:
1. The 80 pF coupling capacitors are not detecting the PD that the
RTDs are since this PD is deeper in the winding. This
demonstrates that these coupling capacitors see very little of the
winding.
2. The authors of the paper used two types of sensors that have very
poor frequency response to PD signals when the tests were
performed. A 10 turn HFCT used by the authors is 2.5 to 3 times
less sensitive than used in the responders RTD-PD sensors. Even
direct connecting to the RTD with a scope probe has better
sensitivity. This is still not as good as the sensor the responders
normally use for measuring PD from RTDs. Therefore the claims
being made about sensitivity are invalid.
The responders have performed dozens of calibration tests over the
last ten years on a variety of machines. There is an excellent
knowledge base established as far as RTD sensitivity and
effectiveness is concerned. The same is true for 80 pF coupling
capacitors. One can not start comparing sensitivities of different
sensors without understanding the calibration of all sensors. The
sensitivity of a coupling capacitor will vary between one that is
directly coupled to the bus and one that has a two or three foot lead
length.
Some professionals feel calibration is not necessary since trending is
the key component in PD diagnostics. If that is truly the case, then
sensitivity plays no part.
2006 Paper Conclusion
These results also reveal other difficulties with interpreting PD
results using RTD sensors. Since it is the lead that detects the PD,
and since in most motors the RTD leads take a circuitous path from
the slot around the stator the lead is likely to detect PD from all
three phases. Thus one does not normally see just two clumps of
pulses per cycle (often indicative of PD), but 6 clumps that often
merge into a mass of pulses across the AC cycle, which makes
separating noise from actual stator PD very difficult even for an
expert. In addition, the actual position of the pulses with respect to
the AC phase position is always unknown, and the pulse polarity
information is lost when combined RTD/HFCT sensors are used.

Response
Utilizing advanced signal processing techniques, the data is sorted
and presented showing the common two clumps. It seems the
authors have no knowledge in using such techniques.
Thousands of data records from RTDs are available and many have
been presented in technical papers that show the common two
clumps of data. As a matter fact the authors failed to reference or
acknowledge any of the professional technical papers that have been
presented on this very specific topic.
The actual position of the pulses is not lost. A voltage reference is
always used in order to determine phase position. Also, a set of
coupling capacitors are ALWAYS installed at the line terminals. The
use of both types of sensors is complementary and not mutually
exclusive.
2006 Paper Conclusion
The conclusion of these investigations is that while PD may be
detected by RTD leads, even an expert with decades of experience
will have a great deal of difficulty making useful, accurate
conclusions on the condition of the stator winding insulation.
Response
Interpretation of data from the RTDs is no different than data from
traditional coupling capacitors. Magnitudes, pulse counts, phase
relationships, polarity and trend are all items used in the diagnostics.
There is more data to look at since there are more sensors, but more
information as to the overall health of the machine is also provided.

III. MAIN ISSUE OF FIELD MEASUREMENTS
SIGNAL ATTENUATION

It is well known in that PD signals have significant
attenuation especially in inductive equipment such as motors
and generators. Due to the attenuation of PD pulses while
propagating from the place of origin, all PD sensors in the
high frequency range have a limited zone of sensitivity. This
feature allows the technology to localize a source of PD
activity with certain accuracy and take preventive measures
such as locally repair the insulation, replace coils or bars and
otherwise save healthy stators from failure.
Type of Sensor
It is well accepted that sensors installed at the line terminals
of a machine can not cover the entire insulation system. The
type of sensor and location of sensors are very important.
Fig. 1 shows PD pulses obtained from a 13.8 kV motor that
has three 80 pF coupling capacitors and three radio frequency
current transformers (RFCTs) installed on the surge capacitor
ground circuit. Traces 1, 2 and 3 are the 80 pF coupling
capacitors, while traces 4, 5 and 6 are from the RFCTs. The
location of the defect in the machine is known and is close to
the main termination box. It can be easily seen the RFCTs are
far more sensitive (ten times) to the defect than the coupling
capacitors. This substantiates that the coupling capacitors see
very little of the winding. Due to the frequency response of the
RFCTs, they can see deeper into the winding.

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1 >
2 >
3 >
4
4 >
5 >
6 >
1) CCA: 2 Volt 500 ns
2) CCB: 2 Volt 500 ns
3) CCC: 2 Volt 500 ns
4) SCA: 2 Volt 500 ns
5) SCB: 2 Volt 500 ns
6) SCC: 2 Volt 500 ns

Figure 1 - Comparison of RFCTs sensors on Surge Capacitors ground (traces
4,5 and 6) and 80pF coupling capacitors (traces1, 2, 3) on the same 13.8 kV
motor
Use of Multiple Sensors
One can expect to have higher magnitudes on the sensor
closest to the origin of the PD pulse. The responses of six
RTDs to a PD pulse originating in the vicinity of RTD#5 in a
13.8 kV motor are shown in Fig. 2. As can be observed,
RTD5 is the closest RTD to the defect since higher
magnitudes are present.
1 >
2 >
3 >
4 >
5 >
6 >
1) RTD1: 200 mVolt 100 ns
2) RTD2: 200 mVolt 100 ns
3) RTD3: 200 mVolt 100 ns
4) RTD4: 200 mVolt 100 ns
5) RTD5: 200 mVolt 100 ns
6) RTD6: 200 mVolt 100 ns

Figure 2 - Response of six RTDs to a PD pulse originating close to RTD 5.
Sorting out Cross Coupled Signals
Utilizing proprietary algorithms and advanced signal
processing techniques, one can sort out cross-coupled
signals and only show pulses from the sensor that is most
sensitive to each individual pulse. The authors of the 2006
paper apparently do not understand the use of these advanced
technologies and therefore are confused about the 6 clumps
of data versus the expected 2 clumps.
Fig. 3 shows phase resolved PD distributions for different
sensors that have different phase positions and patterns. One
can see PD distributions from six RTD sensors and two 80 pF
coupling capacitors. This demonstrates that each sensor is
detecting a different PD event.

Figure 3 - Different patterns are shown on the RTDs and coupling capacitors.
Most of the PD activity is phase to ground.
Crosstalk can be significant and depends on multiple factors,
including winding design, sensor location and the origin of a
PD pulse. In some cases, cross-coupling can be significant,
and mislead one about the location of the PD site. This is valid
for all types of sensors including coupling capacitors. In one
case a signal was injected to the neutral of B phase of a small
generator stator, and one should expect to see highest
magnitude on B phase line lead. However, the highest
magnitude was detected on phase C and pulse polarity was
opposite to the injected pulse.
Calibration performed by injecting signals all over a winding
can provide valuable information on sensitivity and crosstalk.
Fig. 4 shows the response of three RTD sensors to a signal
injected near the RTD in slot #2 (Trace 1) at turbine end.
RTD#6 (Trace 2) located +4 slots from RTD#2, while
RTD#52 (Trace 3) is located -3 slots at exciter end. The
signals from RTD#2 are five times higher than RTD#6 and 15
times higher than RTD#52 located on other end.

1 >
2
2 >
3 >
1) RTD2: 10 mVolt 100 ns
2) RTD6: 10 mVolt 100 ns
3) RTD52: 10 mVolt 100 ns

Figure 4 - Signals from RTD#2 are five times higher than RTD#6 and 15
times higher than from RTD#52.

The differences are the combined effect of attenuation along
the stator coils, along RTD wires and crosstalk in the stator
and between RTD wires. This simple example shows how PD
sensors are sensitive to a localized area.
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Use of Multiple Sensors and How Many Sensors are Needed
To cover a complete stator on a large turbine or hydro
generator with equal high sensitivity one would require
sensors in every slot on both ends of the stator. Since this is
not realistic it is recommend that 12 RTDs located in the most
electrically stressed parts of the winding, and that are evenly
distributed on the turbine and exciter end of the stator winding
be used.
It can be argued that it is a difficult task to choose the proper
RTD sensor configuration, but reliability of PD measurements
must be taken very seriously and it is strongly felt that optimal
sensor location is the most important factor of the RTD
technology. Use of multiple sensors will provide the user more
data to review, but with a significant increase in reliability in
determining the health of an insulation system. It is similar to
a physician making a conclusion on a patients health based on
temperature only compared to a physician using full lab tests
and a MRI.
CASE STUDIES
Case 1- Hydro Generator
Fig. 5 shows two snapshots from RTDs and 80 pF coupling
capacitors on a hydro generator where one can see low or no
response from the capacitors, while having high magnitudes
on RTD sensors and vice-versa. The stator had two sets of
capacitors along the ring bus and 12 RTDs evenly distributed
along the stator.

PD pulse in vicinity of RTD#4 no
response from CCs
Phase A to phase B discharge
detected by CCA2 and CCB2
Figure 5 - Independent registration of two PD events by different sensors.

Fig. 6 shows multiple and different PD patterns detected by
the RTDs and 80 pF capacitors. Even if the capacitors
connected to the same ring bus 90 degrees apart, have
different PD patterns detected by those sensors, which confirm
that the sensors are local and picking up different partial
discharges. Attenuation of a calibration pulse along a quarter
of the ring bus is ~0.4 and one can expect only ~15% of the
PD signal coming from the most distant point on the ring bus
to the sensor.

Figure 6 - Multiple PD patterns detected in the stator of a hydro generator
showing complexity of pulse propagation and attenuation.
Case Study 2 - Comparing RTD and SSC Measurements
When making an attempt to compare PD sensors one must
understand that sensors connected to different parts of an
object, most probably, will detect different PD activity and
simple correlation of the response of capacitors to RTD
sensors is just wrong. Fig. 7 shows the response of a Stator
Slot Coupler (SSC) as well as a RTD that is located in the
same slot directly under the SSC on a 20 kV, 300 MW turbine
generator. The SSC is installed above the top bar (under the
wedge) and the RTD is between the top and bottom bars.
Measurements show that both types of sensors have almost
identical sensitivity.
Fig. 7 shows a snapshot of PD pulses detected simultaneously
on SSC72 and RTD72

1 >
2
2 >
1) RTD72: 50 mVolt 100 ns
2) SC72: 50 mVolt 100 ns

Figure 7 - Almost identical response of SSC and RTD sensors to PD pulse.

Fig. 8 shows the PD patterns look almost identical for the
three sets of SSCs and RTDs. Minor differences can be
explained by the symmetrical position of RTDs between stator
bars and the asymmetrical position of SSC. The PD from the
bottom bar will be shielded by the top bar and one can expect
lower sensitivity on the SSC to PD pulses originating in the
bottom bar.
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Figure 8 - PD patterns by SSC and RTD sensors located next to each other.
Contrary to the conclusion of the authors of the 2006 paper
that RTDs having a spiral armor have low sensitivity, this case
study shows the RTD has a slightly higher sensitivity than the
SSC. RTDs in this case have a spiral metal armor as can be
seen in Fig. 9.

Figure 9 - RTD termination compartment, one can see bundles of RTD wires
in spiral armor coming from the stator.
Case Study 3- Swapping of Line and Neutral Leads
This study shows the progression of aging insulation on a
machine where the line and neutral leads were interchanged.
Fig. 10 shows both the similarities and differences of trend
from different sensors. The capacitors and RTDs each show
different trends illustrating a very interesting case of fast aging
of old insulation by electrical stress. The effect of CO
2

cleaning of the end winding area is seen on the capacitors.

Figure 10 - Fast aging of electrical insulation in different parts of the stator
after swapping line and neutral leads.

Case Study 4 Capacitors and RTDs are Complimentary
It is strongly promoted and recommended that both
capacitors and RTDs be used to provide a reliable assessment
of stator insulation health. Using both types of sensors is
complementary and not meant to be mutually exclusive.
The capacitors will be more sensitive to PD occurring near
the line termination area while the RTDs will be more
sensitive to PD occurring deeper in the winding. This provides
an opportunity for much more reliable diagnostics.
Fig. 11 and Fig. 12 show the Partial Discharge Intensity (PDI)
distributions and phase resolved data for two distinctive cases
with PD activity mostly detected only by one type of sensor.
Fig. 11 shows a case where the detected PD is deeper in the
windings and there are very low signals at the coupling
capacitors. Conversely, Fig. 12 shows a case where the PD is
near the line terminals and the capacitors detect the majority
of the PD and the RTDs show fairly low PD activity. In this
case the defects are closer to the line terminal area.







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Figure 11 - Low PD activity in line termination area are sensed by the
capacitors and high PD activity occurring deeper in winding are sensed by the
RTDs.



Figure 12 - Significant PD activity in line termination area sensed by the
capacitors and low PD activity occurring deeper in the winding sensed by the
RTDs.
IV. CONCLUSIONS
Responses to the conclusions of the paper titled
Investigations Into the Use of Temperature Detectors as
Stator Winding Partial Discharge Detectors presented at the
2006 IEEE International Symposium on Electrical Insulation
were presented. Four new case studies also were discussed
showing that PD information obtained from multiple sensors
(RTDs located throughout the winding) is very valuable. Most
of the conclusions from this paper are a response to the
misleading statements that reflect a lack of understanding the
measurement of PD in the higher frequency ranges.

It is time to stop debating the value of utilizing existing RTDs
as PD sensors. With minimum effort from electrical societies,
manufacturers and repair facilities, one can have an excellent,
natural technology for estimation of stator insulation
conditions on-line, verifying quality of repairs, saving costs on
maintenance, extending insulation life and preventing critical
failures.
REFERENCES
[1] S.R. Campbell, G.C. Stone Investigations into the Use of Temperature
Detectors as Stator Winding Partial Discharge Detectors, Conference
Record of the 2006 IEEE International Symposium on Electrical
Insulation, Toronto, ON, pp 369-375.
[2] IEEE Std 1434-2000 Guide to Measurement of Partial Discharges in
Rotating Machinery
[3] Z. Berler, I. Blokhintsev, A. Golubev, G. Paoletti, A. Romashkov, RTD
as a Valuable Tool in Partial Discharge Measurements on Rotating
Machines, 67th Annual International Conference of Doble Clients,
March 27-31, 2000, Boston, MA
[4] C. Kane, A. Golubev, I. Blokhintsev, Further Experience in the Use of
Existing RTDs in Windings of Motors and Generators for the
Measurement of Partial Discharges, Conference Record of the 2004
IEEE International Symposium on Electrical Insulation, Indianapolis,
IN, pp 434-439.


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