Guest interview:

Jean Donaldson












REMINDER: Please note that our guests come here to chat and answer questions, as their time
is limited we would appreciate if we could keep on topic. Our guests are not here to be 'quoted'
and due to nature of some queries it is unfeasible to provide an answer online. The content of
these interviews may not be shared without permission from the site - Thank you.



moderndoggroup.com
ADMIN NOTE: Hi everyone please welcome today's special guest - one of the most influential
trainers of our time, award winning author and director of the SF/SPCA and Academy for dog
trainers... Welcome Jean and thank you for being with us today! To begin I'd like to ask you
'What are the most common behaviour complaints you hear? And have you noticed any that are
more breed specific?



Denise O'Moore Hi Jean thanks for joining us

Jason Currie Hi Jean Donaldson thanks for sharing your time with us

Yvette Van Veen Can we ask questions now? I have to teach classes, but want to post a question (a
few that relate to one another.) So hoping since I have to run to class, it would be okay if I post it now?
Jean Donaldson
Could you comment on the following:
1 - Define threshold and how to determine it. People use the word, but seems to mean "not eating" to one
person. "No stress signs" to another. Others see it as "dog is relaxed." Does threshold change depending on
technique? For example, if using R-, it seems like the dog would have to want to escape. But in CC, you want the
dog enjoying the good things. So does that not mean different thresholds?
2 - I have recently read posts that say things like, "I don't care about the quadrant, I care if I'm aversive." Don't
the quadrants determine if something is aversive? Is it even possible to use R- and NOT be aversive?
Thx! Really looking forward to some clear definitions of threshold and sources for what they are.

Jean Donaldson The most common complaints are recall problems, various assorted barking and dog-
dog stuff, on-leash and off. Plenty of stuff is breed-related though not much is specific to the point of being limited
to a breed(s). And plenty of individuals within a breed never present with any of the breed's common issues.

For instance, terriers are scrappy with dogs, herding dogs are spooky, breeds bred to guard have stranger
problems, and so on.

In DS/CC, threshold is the point at which the dog demonstrates that he's uncomfortable. The evidence might be
diminished interest in the food, and body language (fear and/or agg) subtleties. As soon as we suspect the dog
might be over threshold, we decrease stimulus intensity.

Negative reinforcement requires an aversive in order to work. It would not be a reinforcing event to escape or
avoid something that is neutral or positive! So, by definition, if it's reinforcing to escape it, it's aversive.
Joan McGregor Barking is no 1 for me. .My dog Molly a basset hound who barks at her sister when
she wants to play has a deep voice and it gets on my nerves. .I do not know how to stop her. .nothing seems to
quiet her. .

Bea Pludow Jean do you think that people who get pure-bred dogs understand more about the
breeds issues then folks who get rescues? Case in point some breds like dobermans and B. shepards i hardly
ever get calls on.

Jeanette Waters my question is,i have four cavies,age between 7 and 6 months,just this pass
month,the ruby age two,when chewing a bone,will grumble at my oldest ,then within seconds the ruby age two is
holding my oldest dog down,wont let her up,lots of barking.then she lets her go and they are fine.they are all girls.

Jason Currie Jean Donaldson do you think there is any merit in aggression cases where some might say
its beneficial for a dog to develop its own coping skills ? for example in -R type methods like BAT, ?

Julie Ryal Brewer Im working with a poorly socialized 14 week old pup. Should i wait for overt signs
of a classical connection between person and food before working on ds/cc? Is there a risk involved the puppy
working for the food whilst over threshold if he is still approaching/eating?

Jeanette Waters should i just leave them to it.?

Julie Ryal Brewer Sorry Jean should have tagged.

Jean Donaldson I do not think people who get purebred dogs are fully apprised of what they're getting in
most cases. Breed standards - the temperament information when it's available - use euphemisms ("reserved,"
"loyal," "brave" etc.) to disguise characteristics that are disastrous for pet owners, such as dogs that are difficult
to socialize to strangers.

And breeders might then dodge the issue by throwing the ball to the (amateur!) owner. "Well, you need to
socialize and train!" Many of these people do everything right and still end up with a dog that doesn't like
unfamiliar people.

I don't want to paint all breeders with the same brush, and I appreciate that there are breeders who really make
an effort to vet puppy buyers and be honest about their breed.

Jeanette Waters The ruby dog is much stronger !!

Fran Hill As the owner of two sighthounds, I am bemused that because most dog trainers own highly-
biddable breeds (usually collies), they therefore train non-biddable breeds in the same way. Shaping seems to be
a great way to train terriers and hounds, but I have not found a trainer who uses this. In your experience, do you
think different breeds require different approaches?


Yvette Van Veen Thank you Jean. I appreciate you offering clarity on terms that seem to get
muddied.

Jean Donaldson Joan, you can consider a zero tolerance policy, i.e. a stiff fine for barking for Molly.
When she starts, issue one warning ("thanks, that's enough now") and at the very next bark, tell her she's broken
the speed limit (<g>), and deliver her to the bathroom for ten minutes (or when she stops protesting). It'll take
repetition and consistency, but it works like a charm if you stick with it.

Joan McGregor Thanks Jean I sure will give that a try. .

Jean Donaldson Jeanette, if they aren't injuring each other and there's not fear fallout (your oldest isn't
getting anxious), you can leave dog-dog resource guarding alone. If they're injuring each other or one dog is
becoming anxious, whole new ballgame.


Denise O'Moore Good question Fran - I have encountered many trainers that don't offer the correct training for
specific breeds. Sometimes it is down to the basics of not understanding the types: ie. Sighthound, guarding,
herding etc.

Jean Donaldson Julie, with a 14 week-old, you have the luxury of moving more aggressively, i.e. into
habituation territory. Really "bomb" the puppy with strangers and goodies, rather than doing the incremental
desensitization approach indicated for adults.

Jeanette Waters no they are not injuring each other ,just a lot of noise..

Jean Donaldson Fran, I so hear you on the ease of motivation question, having had the rude shock after
twenty years in border collies of getting a chow. I don't think the training approach needs to be different
(prompting, capturing, shaping all work if done competently), but they are trickier to motivate, so that needs to be
competently addressed.

Competence really levels the playing field.



Jean Donaldson I've done a bunch of sighthounds, including putting an obedience title on a whippet, so I
feel your pain.

Julie Ryal Brewer Thanks Jean. .... Didn't want to do harm

Clara AndEileen Anderson Jean Donaldson What do we say to the force trainers who have created
a meme saying that positive trainers recommend killing dogs? I write a lot about the misapprehensions people
have about force free training, but I cant decide whether that one merits a response or not. But I know the
general public hears it a lot.

Jean Donaldson Jason, I prefer altering the underlying emotional response driving the behavior rather
than teaching the dog to demonstrate behaviors that are more likable to us in spite of his fear.

Bert Mdtba Smithy Thanks for joining us Jean Donaldson


Yvette Van Veen Denise O'Moore - can you please let us know if the questions slow down to a point
where it wouldn't be rude to ask a 2nd question. I have about a million I'd like to ask <grin>, but don't want to
monopolize.
If there aren't enough questions at some point...I'd love to know so I don't feel lousy asking. Thx!

Jean Donaldson It's hard to respond to the "positive trainers recommend killing dogs" thing as it's so in
outerspace LOL! Put it this way. Their backs are to the wall. Their days are numbered. Society is less and less
tolerant of violence, and more and more sophisticated regarding lack of transparency. Is it surprising they're
saying nutty things to defend themselves?

They be dinosaurs. Soon extinct.

Tamara A Howard Hi Jean, Again thanks so much for your time with us today. I have a clarification
question on your last answer: with DS/CC there is an aversive stimuli that we are trying to change the dogs
emotional response to, usually with edibles. With Negative reinforcement using the functional reward of
escape/space there still is an aversive stimuli present that we are trying to change the dogs response to. What do
you see as the pitfalls of each method?

Denise O'Moore Yvette Van - please ask away but give Jean time to answer


Yvette Van Veen Thx Denise O'Moore


Julie Ryal Brewer Well said Jean no more pain/fear in training!

Yvette Van Veen Jean Donaldson What strategies do you use to reduce the resurgence of fear
during/after DS/CC? Obviously rehab isn't a straight line of progress, wondering if you take steps to reduce the
recovery of fear. (Seems to be a buzz topic lately, so would like to hear your thoughts.)

What strategies do you use to prevent classically conditioning an accidental safety cue during any rehab process.
"Mom is always next to be during rehab, so I am safe if mom is walking me." (Or muzzle, special leash....)
Specifically, some people are saying that using food, during rehab, is likely to become conditioned as a safety
cue, so we should avoid food use in fear rehab.

Jean Donaldson Tamara, by definition, all reinforcement and punishment is "functional" if it works. In
negative reinforcement, the aversive is exploited to train in behavior.

For instance, an ear pinch is kept on until the dog does the desired response (takes the dumbbell). He learns to
"cope with the pain" by offering up what works to terminate it. In shock training a recall, the shock is kept on until
the dog makes criteria on the recall. In "do something I like in order to get space from scary stimulus" training of
any kind, the aversive is kept on until the dog makes criteria.

The pitfalls of using aversives are many, and I'm sure everybody here is familiar with them.

Fran Hill I'd love to learn how you determined what motivated the sighthounds?

Jean Donaldson Yvette, it's tough to answer that one, as it's not commonly an issue. If DS/CC is done
competently, there *is* no resurgence. (Kind of like asking, "What do you do about the dog turning into a kiwi?"
"Uhhhhhh, well we, uhhh...wait, what?")

Nicki Davies My chocolate lab.3yrs old .weve had him 3 months.recall is non existant if
distracted.any tips.hes not ball obsessed

Jean Donaldson I food-trained all the sighthounds I did, Fran. One was miiiiiildly ball-interested, but not
enough to be a workable, convenient motivator.

Fran Hill I use food. I don't know how to make myself more exciting than chasing a rabbit or squirrel
though.


Denise O'Moore Flirt pole!!!

Jean Donaldson Boring old incremental plan for your chockie, Niki. Build a rock-solid recall from the
ground up. Rabbits and squirrels are sure tough. No question that it'll stymie a good many trainers (of all
philosophical stripe). But that doesn't leave you off the due-diligence hook.

Cheryl T. Heinly Regaining confidence for your dog.. anything with that would be helpful.

Yvette Van Veen Jean Donaldson Do you have any references to that? It's a bit of a hot topic and it
seems to me there is an emerging fear mongering of food use. I agree with you. I'd love references (not now
necessarily). I can PM you later if you like?
It's just bothering me because it seems to be a sticky point and fear of food use seems to be something that
latches on very quickly in people.

Jason Currie Jean Donaldson I don't know if its just me but many trainers with the police, and who do
personal protection use old fashioned methods, do have any ideas why this might be case ? because on the face
of it biting a sleeve is simply a extension of a play tug game ? often these trainers argue real "driven" working
dogs don't respond in the same way ?

Jean Donaldson Fear of food as a motivator, as opposed to fear of aversives as a motivator. The world is
upside down LOLOL!!!


Denise O'Moore ADMIN NOTE: It's coming close to that time - I'm sorry! Jean is going to stay a little longer than
scheduled to comb through everyones questions and try answer as many as possible but I am going to have to
stop you all from putting any more up for the time being. Thanks for so many great questions!

Fran Hill Thank you for your time Jean. It's much appreciated.


Denise O'Moore Cheryl T. - you got a question? Type it in now

Cheryl T. Heinly I was looking on how to re regain confidence in a dog that has been attacked by
another dog...

Joan McGregor Thanks Jean I have enjoyed this. .Good info. . .

Cheryl T. Heinly Thanks Denise... I can always look up Jean's info... I came in late...

Denise O'Moore Fantastic question Cheryl!


Jason Currie Jean Donaldson any chance you can chat with us every week I nearly forgot ask, but I understand
you have a online course can you tell us abit more about it ?

Yvette Van Veen No Jean - fear of food use in humans!!! People seem to easily get afraid of using
food for training their dog. I've seen a number of comments that are leaning to that effect. "You don't want to use
DS/CC because food is bad for a,b,c reason..."

Bea Pludow Thanks Jean Donaldson for your time!

Jean Donaldson The K9 people (police, military) are indeed a decade or two behind, but they're
staaaarting to catch up a bit. Likely the culture there that's holding them back.

Julie Ryal Brewer Thanks Jean looking forward to studying with you soon!

Denise O'Moore After the chat I will be posting links to Jean's online courses for anyone who is
interested.

Jean Donaldson Ugh, Cheryl, I'm sorry to hear that. If your kid has a long, happy dog-dog history (is
"padded" in dog-trainer-speak), there's a good chance he'll bounce back on his own, at least to a degree. Our
hope is that the fear will be narrow (limited to that very dog or that type of dog or the context) rather than a global
dog fear. How long has it been and how is he doing?

Jason Currie oh and if im in time just quick question, I noticed on a few occasions when trainers have
used LAT dogs snap close up but the dogs still take food close to stimulus, is there a chance in this scenario
taking food is being used as a form of avoidance ?

Margot Delaney Thank you for this Jean Donaldson and admins for arranging it. I came in rather late
but have been following the last little bit and am looking forward to reading through all the earlier posts,

Cheryl T. Heinly He is 5 and this only happened about a month ago... I took him out right away again
and he seemed fine, but he seems to be now moving away from dogs... this could be he senses something I do
not?


Jean Donaldson You do want to be careful in DRI (e.g. LAT) scenarios with fear to do an incremental
plan, and be mindful of over-achiever type dogs self-forcing too close!

Yvette Van Veen Two paws way up. Thanks for doing this. And thank you Jean for being the one
person that always drives the point home that technique and fully understanding the quads really does matter.
When I get a dog that isn't "getting it," I remember that and decide that perhaps I better fix what I'm doing wrong!

Cheryl T. Heinly And you are correct, it seems to be a certain type... and I NEVER force him. If he's
uncomfortable, we move away

Anne Springer This is only a tiny taste of what the lucky few of us in the Academy hear. Trust me, it's
an experience like no other to be there. Really the only place I've seen where the science and the mechanics
really come together.

Jean Donaldson Yvette, with all due respect to the aversives crowd who are food-phobic, that's batshit
crazy.

Maureen Tay I would love to have a chance to enroll in the course

Cheryl T. Heinly I will just keep doing what I'm doing... small tiny steps and if he's uncomfortable, we
move away... thanks Jean!

Jean Donaldson Competence really, really matters.

Good going, Cheryl. Give him time and good experiences with dogs. Start with passive dogs off-leash if possible.
PM me if you need more guidance.

Clara AndEileen Anderson THANK YOU Jean Donaldson!

Jason Currie Jean Donaldson I have heard you do a online course can you tell us more and do you have
a link by any chance ?

Denise O'Moore Thank you Jean Donaldson. Trust me run while you can or you will be here all night lol.
Was going to post link but you got to it before me! Again thanks for your time and expertise.

Tamara A Howard Fastest hour in FB history. Thank You Jean, you as always, rock!


Cheryl T. Heinly I also wanted to thank Denise!!

Bea Pludow Thanks again MDT&BA that w as one FAST hour!

Jason Currie Thanks Jean Donaldson


Jean Donaldson Thank you, Denise and Tamara. Muah!


Denise O'Moore ADMIN NOTE: Thank you Jean for your time, thank youTamara for helping this happen and
thank you to the rest of the amazing admin here

The course info is at www.academyfordogtrainers.com.
It's pretty grueling, so do think twice LOLOL!

The Academy for Dog Trainers - Professional pet dog training..

The Academy for Dog Trainers - Professional pet dog training
www.academyfordogtrainers.com
The Academy for Dog Trainers - Comprehensive curriculum in force-free pet dog training and behavior