Eurasian Origins of Berbers and Modern North Africans

7/31/2014
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Eurasian Origins of Berbers and modern North Africans.

Posted on May 2, 2008 | 162 Comments
Eurasian Origin of Berbers and m odern North Africans

Essentially the same thing, as North Africans are mainly Arabized Berbers..
Essentially , about ten thousand y ears ago a population wav e from the near East swept ov er North
Africa, bringing in gracile Mediterranean people in the Capsian era. A later wav e of immigration
occurred in the Neolithic when the ex panding farmers from the near east ploughed their way across
North Africa, some leav ing artwork in the central Sahara to mark their passage. As far as DNA studies
can tell, the Arab inv asions that conv erted North Africans to Islam made v irtually no impact to the
population; essentially they conv erted the local population and didnt replace them. There was a only
trace contribution made to North Africa by Europe during the Barbary slav ery era, but quite a
significant amount of sub Saharan maternal ancestry was added. The modern North African is mainly
Eurasian in ancestry , and cluster with Europeans and west Asians. To quote Cav alli Sforza..
Berbers are located primarily in the northern regions of Algeria and Morocco, but somew hat
to the interior, usually not far from the sea. . Berbers are believed to have their ancestors
among Capsian Mesolithics and their Neolithic descendants, possibly w ith genetic
contributions from the important Neolithic migrations from the Near East. It is reasonable to
hypothesize that the Berber (Afro-Asiatic) language w as introduced by the Neolithic farmers
Any way , this page has a few links to DNA studies of North Africans, which I should really start updating.
Is not complete. One day I will redo the whole thing to be neater and more comprehensiv e.
http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/
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Sean Myles 1, 2 , Nourdine Bouzekri1, Eden Haverfield 1, 3 , Mohamed Cherkaoui4, JeanMichel Dugoujon5 and Ryk Ward 1
(1 )
Institute of Biological Anthropology, University of Oxford, Oxford, UK
(2)
Department of Evolutionary Genetics, Max-Planck Institute for Evolutionary

Anthropology, Deutscher Platz 6, 041 03, Leipzig, Germany
(3)
Department of Human Genetics, University of Chicago, 920 East 58th Street,

Chicago, IL 60637 , USA
(4)
Laboratoire dEcologie Humaine, Facult des Sciences-Semlalia, Universit Cadi

Ayyad, Morocco
(5)
Centre dAnthropologie CNRS,, University of Toulouse, UMR 8555, France
Received: 1 5 November 2004 Accepted: 23 December 2004 Published online:

2 April 2005
Abstract The process by w hich pastoralism and agriculture spread from the Fertile Crescent
over the past 1 0,000 years has been the subject of intense investigation by geneticists,
linguists and archaeologists. How ever, no consensus has been reached as to w hether this
Neolithic transition is best characterized by a demicdiffusion (w itha significant genetic input
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from migrating farmers) or a culturaldiffusion (w ithout substantialmigration of farmers).

Milk consumption and thus lactose tolerance are assumed to have spread w ith pastoralism
and w e propose that by looking at the relevant mutations in and around the lactase gene in
human populations, w e can gain insight into the origin(s) and spread of dairying. We
genotypedthe putatively causal allele for lactose tolerance (1 391 0T) and constructed
haplotypes from several polymorphisms in and around the lactase gene (LCT) in three
NorthAfrican Berber populations and compared our results w ith previously published data.
We found that the frequency of the 1 391 0T allele predicts the frequency of lactose tolerance
in several Eurasian and North African Berber populations but not in most sub-Saharan
African populations. Our analyses suggest that contemporary Berber populations possess
the genetic signature of a past migration of pastoralistsfrom the Middle East and that they
share a dairying origin w ithEuropeans and Asians, but not w ith sub-Saharan Africans.
Mitochondrial DNA heterogeneity in Tunisian Berbers

Berbers live in groups scattered across NorthAfrica w hose origins and genetic relationships
w ith their neighbours are not w ell established. The first hypervariablesegment of the
mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) control region w as sequenced in a total of 1 55 individuals from
three Tunisian Berber groups and compared to other North Africans. The mtDNA lineages
found belong to a common set of mtDNA haplogroups already described in NorthAfrica.
Besides the autochthonous North African U6 haplogroup, a group of L3 lineages
characterized by the transition at position 1 6041 seems to be restricted to North Africans,
suggesting that an expansion of this group of lineages took place around 1 0500 years ago in
NorthAfrica, and spread to neighbouring populations. Principal components and the
coordinate analyses show that some Berber groups (the Tuareg, the Mozabite, and the
Chenini-Douiret) are outliers w ithin the NorthAfrican genetic landscape. This outlier
position is consistent w ith an isolation process follow ed by genetic drift in
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haplotypefrequencies, and w ith the high heterogeneity displayed by Berbers compared to

Arab samples as show n in the AMOV A. Despite this Berber heterogeneity, no significant
differences w ere found betw een Berber and Arab samples, suggesting that the
Arabization was m ainly a cultural process rather than a dem ographic
replacem ent.
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Genetic studies have emphasized the contrast betw een North African and sub-Saharan
populations, but the particular affinities of the North African mtDNA pool to that of Europe,
the Near East, and sub-Saharan Africa have not previously been investigated. We have
analysed 268 mtDNA control-region sequences from various Northw est African populations
including severalSenegalese groups and compared these w ith the mtDNAdatabase. We have
identified a few mitochondrial motifs that are geographically specific and likely predate the
distribution and diversification of modern language families in North and West Africa. A
certain mtDNA motif (1 61 7 2C, 1 621 9G), previously found in Algerian Berbers at high
frequency, is apparently omnipresent in Northw est Africa and m ay reflect regional
continuity of m ore than 20,000 years. The m ajority of the m aternal ancestors
of the Berbers m ust have com e from Europe and the Near East since the
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Neolithic.The Mauritanians and West-Saharans, in contrast, bear substantial though not

dominant mtDNAaffinity w ith sub-Saharans.
This is actually a bit innacurate, as the approx imate arriv alof a lot of the Eurasian DNA , ex cluding U,
coincides withthe Neolithic ex pansion and arriv al of the Capsian culture about 1 0,000 y ears ago (from
Cranio facial studies of ancient Magrebian skulls). The Capsians show a gracile build and small face
traceable to the eastern Mediterranean.
The faces of modern North Africa.

Polym orphism of Six Alu Insertions in Morocco: Com parative Study between
Arabs, Berbers, and Casablanca Residents
Abstract Alu elements are the largest family of short tandem interspersed elements (SINEs)
in human w ho have arisen to a copy number w ith an excess of 500 000 copies per haploid
human genome and mobilize through an RNAse polymerase III derived transcript in a
process termed retroposition. Several features make Alu insertions a pow erful tool used in
population genetic studies: the polymorphic nature of many Alu insertions, the stability of
an Aluinsertion event and, furthermore, the ancestral state of an Alu insertion is know n to be
the absence (complete and exact) of the Alu element at a particular locus and the presence of
an Alu insertion at the site that forw ard mutational change. Here w e report on the
distribution of six polymorphic Aluinsertions in a generalMoroccan population and in the
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Arab and Berber populations from Morocco and their relationships w ith other populations
previously studied. Our results show that there is a small difference betw een Arabs and
Berbers and that the Arab population w as closer to African populations than Berber
population w hich is closest to Europeans.
Mitochondrial DNA transit between West Asia and North Africa inferred from
U6 phylogeography
Nicole Maca-Meyer1 , Ana M Gonzlez1 , Jos Pestano2 , Carlos Flores1 , Jos M Larruga1
and V icente M Cabrera1
Published: 1 6 October 2003
Abstract
World-w ide phylogeographicdistribution of human complete mitochondrial DNA sequences
suggested a West Asian origin for the autochthonous North African lineage U6. We report
here a more detailed analysis of this lineage, unraveling successive expansions that affected
not only Africa but neighboring regions such as the Near East, the Iberian Peninsula and the
Canary Islands.
Results
Divergence times, geographic origin and expansions of the U6 mitochondrial DNA clade,
have been deduced from the analysis of 1 4 complete U6 sequences, and 56 different
haplotypes, characterized by hypervariable segment sequences and RFLPs.
Conclusions
The m ost probable origin of the proto-U6 lineage was the Near East. Around
30,000 years ago it spread to North Africa where it represents a signature of
regional continuity. Subgroup U6a reflects the first African expansion from the Maghrib
returning to the east in Paleolithic times. Derivative clade U6a1 signals a posterior
movement from East Africa back to the Maghriband the Near East. This migration coincides
w ith the probable Afroasiatic linguistic expansion. U6b and U6c clades, restricted to West
Africa, had more localized expansions. U6b probably reached the Iberian Peninsula during
the Capsian diffusion in North Africa. Tw o autochthonous derivatives of these clades(U6b1
and U6c1 ) indicate the arrival of North African settlers to the Canarian Archipelago in
prehistoric times, most probably due to the Saharan desiccation. The absence of these
Canarian lineages now adays in Africa suggests important demographic movements in the
w estern area of this Continent.
The Em erging Tree of West Eurasian m tDNAs: A Synthesis of Control-Region
Sequences and RFLPs
V ariation in the human mitochondrial genome (mtDNA) is now routinely described and
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used to infer the histories of peoples, by means of one of tw o procedures, namely, the
assaying of RFLPsthroughout the genome and the sequencing of parts of the control region
(CR). Using 95 samples from the Near East and northw est Caucasus, w e present an analysis
based on both systems, demonstrate their concordance, and, using additional available
information, present the most refined phylogeny to date of w est Eurasian mtDNA. We
describe and apply a nomenclaturefor mtDNA clusters. Hypervariable nucleotides are
identified, and the relative mutation rates ofthe tw o systems are evaluated. We point out
w here ambiguities remain. The identification of signature mutations for each cluster leads us
to apply a hierarchical scheme for determining the cluster composition of a sample of Berber
speakers, previously analyzed only for CR variation. We show that the m ain
indigenous North African cluster is a sister group to the m ost ancient cluster of
European m tDNAs, from which it diverged 50,000 years ago.
MtDNA Profile of West Africa Guineans: Towards a Better Understanding of the
Senegam bia Region
Alexandra Rosa et al.
The matrilineal genetic composition of 37 2 samples from the Republic of Guin-Bissau (West
African coast) w as studied using RFLPsand partial sequencing of the mtDNA control and
coding region. The m ajority of the m tDNA lineages of Guineans (94%) belong to
West African specific sub-clusters of L0-L3 haplogroups. A new L3 sub-cluster (L3h)
that is found in both eastern and w estern Africa is present at moderately low frequencies in
Guinean populations.A non-random distribution of haplogroups U5 in the Fula
group, the U6 am ong the Bram e linguistic fam ily and M1 in the Balanta-Djola
group, suggests a correlation betw een the genetic and linguistic affiliation of Guinean
populations. The presence of M1 in Balanta populations supports the earlier
suggestion of their Sudanese origin. Haplogroups U5 and U6, on the other hand,
were found to be restricted to populations that are thought to represent the
descendants of a southern expansion of Berbers.Particular haplotypes, found almost
exclusively in East-African populations, w ere found in some ethnic groups w ith an oral
tradition claiming Sudanese origin.
A possible ancient migration from Asia to Africa w as proposed by Cruciani et al. (2002) to
explain the presence of some unusual Y -chromosome lineages identified in West Africa.
Haplogroup R1 (defined by M173 m utation), without further branch defining
m utations (M269 and M17) specific to Europeans, accounted for ~40% of the Y chrom osom es in North-Cam eroon, w hile not yethaving been sampled elsew here in
Africa. More data from Central and Western Africa are needed to cast light on the origin of
such idiosyncratic mtDNA and Y chromosome lineages. Thus, our U5 sequences from
the Guinean Fulbe people corroborate Crucianis hypothesis of a prehistoric
m igration from Eurasia to West Sub-Saharan Africa, testified by their present
day restricted and localised distribution
Alu insertion polym orphism s in NW Africa and the Iberian Peninsula: evidence
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for a strong genetic boundary through the Gibraltar Straits

Abstract An analysis of 1 1 Alu insertion polymorphisms (ACE, TPA25, PV 92, APO, FXIIIB,
D1 , A25, B65, HS2.43, HS3.23, and HS4.65) has been performed in several NW African
(Northern, Western, and Southeastern Moroccans; Saharaw i; Algerians; Tunisians) and
Iberian (Basques, Catalans, and Andalusians) populations. Genetic distances and principal
component analyses show a clear differentiation of NW African and Iberian groups of
samples, suggesting a strong genetic barrier m atching the geographical
Mediterranean Sea barrier. The restriction to gene flow may be attributed to the
navigationalhazards across the Straits, but cultural factors must also have played a role.
Some degree of gene flow from sub-Saharan Africa can be detected in the southern part of
North Africa and in Saharaw i and Southeastern Moroccans, as a result of a continuous gene
flow across the Sahara desert that has created a south-north cline of sub-Saharan Africa
influence in North Africa. Iberian sam ples show a substantial degree of
hom ogeneity and fall within the cluster of European-based genetic diversity.
The population history of North Africa is particularly interesting because, although the
region belongs to continental Africa, its history has been completely different from the subSaharan part. The peopling of the region has been influenced by tw o strong geographical
barriers: the Sahara Desert to the south, w hich splits the African continent into tw o
differentiated regions, and the Mediterranean Sea to the north, w hich separates the
European and African continents. These geographical barriers may have constrained
human movements in NorthAfrica into an east-w est gradient, although they w ere not
impermeable to human movements. During the first half of the Holocene, the humid climate
that prevailed in the Sahara produced a receding of the desert allow ing human settlements,
but over the past 5000 years, the Sahara Desert has suffered a gradual aridification and has
become as dry as it is now adays (Said and Faure 1 990). Historicalrecords document
extensive trade routes that w ere established across the desert betw een sub-Saharan Africa
and the north coast. In contrast, since the time of the Phoenicians, the city-based settlement
pattern of the NW African coast integrated the area into the Mediterranean w orld. The
seaw ard orientation of populations persisted and, similar to the desert, separated the
Maghreb (NW Africa) from the rest of Africa to the south (New man 1 995). Moreover, during
the 8th century AD, Berbers from North Morocco and Algeria under Arab leadership crossed
the Mediterranean Sea and occupied the Iberian Peninsula for almost eight centuries,
although the demographic impact of the conquest is thought to be limited (Hitti 1 990).
Until recently, few genetic studies have been performed in NW Africa. In the latest
compilation of classical genetic markers in North Africa (Bosch et al. 1 997 ), the first
principal component (PC) of gene frequencies show ed an east-w est pattern of genetic
differentiation, in agreement w ith the geographical barrier imposed by the Sahara and the
Mediterranean. Recent w ork w ith autosomal short tandem repeats (STRs; Bosch et al.
2000), mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequences (Rando et al. 1 998), and Y -chromosome
haplotypes (Bosch et al. 1 999) has suggested that the gene flow between NW Africa
and Iberia and that between sub-Saharan Africa and NW Africa has been sm all.
MtDNA variation in NW Africa (Rando et al. 1998) has shown a high frequency
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(up to 25%) of geographically specific sequences (nam ed haplogroup U6) that is

essentially absent in the Iberian Peninsula (from 0% in Andalusians to 5% in
Portuguese). The m tDNA analysis has shown a lim ited gene flow from Europe to
NW Africa that could be attributed to recent hum an m ovem ents.The study of Y chromosome haplotypes (Bosch et al. 1 999) show s little admixture betw een NW Africa and
the Iberian Peninsula. The study of 21 autosomal STR loci in NW Africa has also show n a
clear genetic difference betw een NW African populations and Iberians, although some
degree of gene flow into Southern Iberia (Andalusians) can be detected (Bosch et al. 2000).
Diversit m itochondriale de la population de Taforalt (12.000 ans bp m aroc):
une approche gntique a ltude du peuplem ent de lafrique du nord.
(Mitochondrial diversity in the Taforalt population (circa 1 2,000 BP, Morocco): a genetic
approach to the study of the peopling of North Africa.)
ABSTRACT:
The population exhumed from the archaeological site of Taforalt in Morocco (1 2,000 years
BP) is a valuable source of information tow ard a better know ledge of the settlement of
Northern Africa region and provides a revolutionary w ay to specify the origin of IberoMaurusian populations. Ancient DNA was extracted from 31 bone rem ains from
Taforalt.The HVS1 fragm ent of the m itochondrial DNA control region was PCRam plified and directly sequenced. Mitochondrial diversity in Taforalt shows the
absence of sub-Saharan haplogroups suggesting that Ibero-Maurusian
individuals had not originated in sub-Saharan region.Our results reveal a probable
local evolution of Taforalt population and a genetic continuity in North Africa.
Eurasiatic component (J/T, H, U et V ) and North African component (U6).
Genetic structure of Taforalt:
Eurasiatic Com ponent : H, U, JT, V: 90.5%
North African com ponent: U6: 9.5 %
42, 8% (9/21 )
H or U
1 4, 2% (3/21 )
JT
2 individuals (9,5% ) U6
Essentially , the DNA studies of Berbers observ e that they are mostly similar to Eurasians, and that they
appear to hav e arriv ed in North Africa about 30,000 y ears ago plus (Mechta Afaloupeople), with a
second wav e of colonisation in the neolithic from the Near East confirmed by the cranio facial
measurements (Loring Brace) of neolithic North Africans. Then then migrated South during the
saharan wetphase about 1 2,000 y ears ago, with Eurasian Y chromosome now making up 40% of
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Cameroons Y chromosomes as a result (although less in other areas).

All these prehistoric NorthAfricans are described as mostly similar to other Mediterranean Caucasian
populations, with a lesser similarity to Nubians from the Wadi Halfa area. Theres a simplified
ex planation of ancient North African population mov ements here
Edit to Blog..
To the mad Afrocentrist Nubian who claims that these DNA studies prov e Berbers are all black and that
the white Berbers are the descendants of slav es
Please show where any of these studies say that.. Because they dont, at all. They point out that Berbers
are mostly Caucasian and that they v e been in North Africa a v ery long time.
Ex plain why ev ery anthropologist whos looked at Mahgrebian bones in the Holocene describes them as
mainly Caucasian Mediterranean.
Ex plain why the Egy ptians uniform ly portray ed Liby ans as white Caucasians, as they North
Africans did on their own art work.
Ex plain why all the contem porary art and descriptions of the Moors all show a majority
Caucasian population.
Why the Guanches, an isolated North African group since the BCs were all white people
with plentiful blondes, if all Berbers were black untill Moorish slav ery whitened up
North Africa?
Also, for those who insist in the face of ov erwhelming ev idence they were all black in North Africa until
European slav es whitened them up..
From the Roman era in Liby a. All the Roman era mosaics show a mainly Caucasoid light skinned
population in North Africa, as does the rock art.
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Carthage era coins, with two coins showing Hannibal.
The Tassili ladies, from Algeria (age unclear, but sometime in the BC). I hav e a wider collection of
images here.
I also hav e a 1 6th century image of the contemporary Guanches; pure blood North Africans with no
European or sub Saharan ancestry mix ed in, isolated on the Canary islands since about 500 BC, alone
for about 1 ,000 y ears until the Spanish inv aded.
In the brown skin clothing. As y ou can see he is pretty indistinguishable from the Spaniard holding him.
I would also like to point out that the T uareg at not the only real Berbers as is often claim ed.
In fact, they are related to the Beja, and are relativ ely recent arriv als in North West Africa who hav e
adopted Berber customs. They are also about half Eurasian in ancestry . The recent contribution of
Europeans to the North African genepool is 4% for males, and probably less than 2% for females; 1 2,000
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y ear old DNA studies show only Eurasian deriv ed mt DNA in ancient North Africans from Morocco. It
isnt likely to be v ery high though, as the majority of Barbary slav es were males. A good comparison
would be the Arabian peninsula. About 8 million or so slav es were imported from Eaest Africa into this
area, but only about 1 0% of the Mt DNA there is African. By contrast about 1 .25 million Europeans
ended up on the Barbary coast, so this is unlikely to hav e made a difference of more than a couple of
percent to the whole. Way more black African slav es were imported into the area during the Barbary
slav ery era, so the net difference is probably that they are slightly darker than they used to be.
Id also like to point out to those who feel the need to spam m e with descriptions of
Berbers as black or brown from old European tex ts
Europeans used these words differently back then. Brown was used to describe any one with a moderate
tan, black was a skin tone of a dark tan seen with black hair and dark ey es. Ladies and children had white
skin. Europeans commonly called any one with black hair and a heav y tan black, so believ ing that black
in mediev al/renaissance literature refers to a black African is incorrect. In fact, y ou can find references
to Jews, Turks and Spaniards as being black. Gy psies were still referred to as black into the 20th
century . See below. Black Africans are referred to as Ethiopians in these old tex ts.
The men w ere very black, w ith their hair frizzled, the w omen w ere the most ugly and the
blackest that w ere ever seen. .. they had sorceresses amongst them , w ho by pretended to
look into peoples hands, to tell them w hat had or w ould happen to them p. 1 53 of The
Christian journal and Literary Reigster published I 1 827 by T & J. Sw ords? Photo Arabian
gypsies , European gypsies James Micheners Iberia Spanish Travels and Reflections 1 968.
1 8?? We w ere not far from Pressburg w hen at once w e heard in the distance, a singing,
shouting and hallooing w hich continually grew nearer. Presently w e met four w agons, in
w hich a brow n company of gypsies w ere seated. It w as a curious sight. Their sat men and
w omen, girls and boys all dark as half-negroes, in ragged array, w ith long shining hair,
smeared after Hungarian fashion w ith lardWe gazed at them in astonishment
Wanderings of a Journeyman Tailor through Europe and the East: During the years 1 824 to
1 84
COMMENT S POLICY .
Unfortunately necessary , as Afrocentrists feel the need to spam this page with moronic comments. All
comments need to be approv ed by me before they ll appear. They wont be posted unless
They are an intelligent comment
Im in a bad mood and feel like ridiculing someone (Dana/Don).
Id also like to point out that NOT ONE SINGLE ANTHROPOLOGIST takes the v iew that theres been any
kind of population change in North Africa since the Neolithic. Take that as a hint.
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162 RESPONSES TO EURASIAN ORIGINS OF BERBERS AND MODERN NORTH AFRICANS.

Pingback: X chromosome study of Mediterranean populations Mathildas Anthropology Blog.
xvcxvxc | November 2, 2008 at 9:39 am | Reply

Saami and Berbersan unex pected mitochondrial DNA link.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov /pubmed/1 57 91 543
Pingback: Tom joj Are there any northwewt african tribes?
Lisa Dupri | December 7, 2008 at 10:26 pm | Reply

Its really a shame, a disgrace that u just deleated an entry made by Dana Rey nolds Marniche
of the Rasta Limewhire website Team whi studies allot of books about the ancient Berbers and
discriptions of Romans, Greeks and Arabs. Who actually prov e that Berbers are paternally
Blacks, and hav e a maternal white slav e, greek, Sea People,Roman, Arab, Turk origin. Cant
y ou handle the truth? Why are y ou censoring this blog when somebody posts historical facts
with their sources? So Sad, oh so sad.
mathilda37 | December 9, 2008 at 4:06 pm | Reply

Why are you censoring this blog w hen somebody posts historical facts w ith their
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sources?
I deleted it because Iv e got an entry specific to that POS on another blog, where I
deconstruct a fair chunk of it and display what a steaming heap it is.
She completely decided to omit the numerous anthropological studies, historic
descriptions and contemporay Spanish artwork that show a mostly Caucasoid
Berber/Arab force attacking Spain.
BTW, DNA studies and anthropological studies hav e shown ev ery time that there were
sev eral Eurasian migrations into N Africa from about 30k ago and 8k ago. Carletoon Coon
(who the team pretend say North Africans were black) actually said that the modern
Mediterranoid Berbers hav e been in situ at least 1 5,000 y ears. DNA studies on ancient N
Af bones how Eurasian DNA from 1 2,000 y ears ago.
Coon on Berbers
The third discrete racial element in Africa is the Caucasoid, w hich, as indicated
earlier, first entered the continent in massive invasions about 1 5,000 years
ago, certainly from Western Asia and possibly also from Europe. The
descendants of those invaders w ho are still fully or essentially Caucasoid are
the Berbers.
Cav alli Sforza on Berbers
The Berber populations nearer the Mediterranean coast w ere probably
Caucasoids. There is little doubt that they came from the Middle East, and they
have occupied the region since the Neolithic or even earlier. Experienced
sailors like other Neolithic peoples, they colonized the Canary Islands. When
the Spaniards conquered these islands in the fifteenth century, they found a
distinct population w ith some blond-haired and blue-eyed people -traits that
are still evident among some Berbers in Morocco. They spoke Guanche, an
Afroasiatic Berber language. By the time the Spanish arrived, they had lost the
ability to sail.
Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza,
Also, the word brown for skin was used to mean a tan in northern Europeans, and
any one of gy psy colouring was called black. We called black Africans Ethiopians, not
black. So any desciption of North Africans being black only means they looked
Arab/darkish. Try reading some proper tex t books on the moorish inv asion. The Arabs
and Spanish kept v ery good records on which Berber tribes were Ethiopians. Of all that list
of driv el, only the top entry with affrights its cradle actually describes black berbers.
Some of the moors used to dy e their hair black so they didnt look like the Spaniards. So
half of that stuff they claim means black African translates into modern language as
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moderately tanned or middle Eastern in colouring

She also left out that the all Berber genetically Guanches were described as tall and tanned
and handsome with a great many blondes in their number. These were nativ e north
Africans that nev er saw Europeans until the Spanish wiped them out.
The Eurasian maternal contribution goes back before written history , its from 1 2,000
y ears and older (there is solid proof from ancient bones). The Berbers hav e paternally
nativ e north African, not black Y chromosomes y ou moron. The M81 Y chromsome is
nev er seen south of the Sahara, and v ery uncommon in black Africans.
BTW, Tuareg are newcomers to the North Africa area. They originated in East Africa, are
half Eurasian, and arent genetically Bebers.
But of course, y ou cant handle the truth. Thats why y ou nev er see the any of the images
or historical descriptions or any relev ant quotes from anthropologists on that POS site.
Justin | December 14, 2008 at 10:27 am | Reply

I fully agree with Mathilda37 !
Im Portuguese on both male & female lineages since generations and generations. My
ancestors are all from the northern part of the actual Portugal (former Gallaicia). My paternal
grandfather was tall, blue-ey ed and with a v ery fair skin. Not at all the Mediterranean ty pical
person!.
I am my self tall (1 .82m), green-ey ed and fair skin.
So, some months ago I subscribed for a complete Y -DNA & mt-DNA tests. The results are: Y
DNA: E1 b1 b1 b (M81 modal) & mt DNA : H. Conclusion, Im a kind of Celtiberber!
I wasnt surprised at all, knowing that berber presence in the northern part of the Iberian
Peninsula is much more older than the Muslim inv asion of Iberia in the early 8th century .
luis | December 17, 2008 at 12:09 am | Reply

Justin,I hav e E1 b1 b1 b2,tracing my father lineage ancestors I found all where pasiegos since
1 650 I wonder how this pasiego population isolated in west Cantabria got there and
when.The idea of a group of berbers? concentrated in a small area as a result of arab inv asion
in 7 th century do not seem v ery accurate to me.May I understand , by y ou comment, that
may be pasiegos mov ed south to N Africa? By the way I hav e also H mtdna
Justin | December 19, 2008 at 8:22 pm | Reply

Luis,
The concentration of E1 b1 b1 b2 in the Pasiego population is a mistery and still under hot
debates. One thing is sure and well cov ered in this blog, the E-M81 subclade is found mainly
in the northwestern part of Africa. So, the Berber presence in Ibera started from Africa to our
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beautiful peninsula and not the opposite.

The only thing I wanted to say is that the presence of Berbers in Ibera is a v ery v ery old story
which started well before the
Arab inv asion in the early 8th century . Its mainly true in the north of the peninsula (North
Portugal/Galicia, asturias, cantabria). Berbers were already there before the Romans
arriv al
Justin | December 21, 2008 at 11:20 am | Reply

Luis,
Here y oull find a lot of information on the E1 b1 b1 b presence in y our beautiful Cantabria
region.
http://community .haplozone.net/index .php?topic=881 .1 5
Y ou are amoung the oldest inhabitants of Iberia (it goes back to prehistoric times). As i said
in my prev ious message y our ancestors were there well before the islamic ex pansion in
Iberia (7 th 8th century ), y es they came from North africa, but well before the islamisation
of Africa.
At that time, the northwestern part of Africa was populated by white caucasoid Amazigh
tribes (Berbers).
During the islamic ex pansion in Iberia, y our ancestors were already Christians, and that,
since the beginning of christianity in the Iberic peninsula. They surely participated at the
battles against the Mauros
NubianMoor | December 24, 2008 at 4:48 pm | Reply

Ev en the Kaby les where Black and some v erry dark with an ex eption of a few white tribes till
v ery recently !!!
Here is an account from 1 834 by Scotman Thomas Campbell: The Kaby lesdress like the Arabs
and a part from a few tribes, are brown complex ioned and black haired p. 1 09 Barbary and
Enlightenment: European Attitudes Toward the Maghreb in the 1 8th Century , Ann Thomson.
Published 1 987 by E. J. Bull
In 1 890 was written The Kaby les or Kabaily of Algerian and Tunisian territoriesbesides
tillage, work the mines contained in their mountainsThey liv e in huts made of branches of
trees and cov ered with clay which resemble the Magalia of the old NumidiansThey are of
middle stature, their complex ion brown and sometimes nearly black. from The
Ency clopedia Britannica: Dictionary of Arts, Sciences and General Literature Henry G. Allen
Company p. 261 V olume I 1 890. Other accounts are similar.
ITS CLEARLY SAY S SOMETHIMES NEARLY BLACK!!!! BLACK !!! GO BUY THE BOOK AND
READ IT Y OURESELF what do y ou hav e to say on that? This time we are not talking about
ancient blackterms but 1 830-7 0-80s BLACK, so ev en the Kaby les where Black Berbers
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who where whitened by the Slav e Trade and White Inv asions. Dont forget the fact that the
Kaby les hav e the highest concentration of SKIN cancer in Africa. Search it on the NET. This is
inrefutable truth that Berbers alway s hav e been Black. Ev en the Northern Ones.
mathilda37 | December 27, 2008 at 10:40 am | Reply

Honey (ex plains gently ) Europeans called any one with black hair and a heav y tan black.
Brown was used to describe Europeans with a tan. We used to call Gy psies black
complex ioned right into the 20th century here. Y ou should become more familiar with
how Europeans used the words black, white and brown in describing skin tones. The word
black only came to be commonly used for black Africans in the 20th century .
There is plenty of artwork from ancient North Africa, and it doesnt depict black Africans
liv ing there in any kind of numbers. The DNA and skull stuides all show a caucasoid
population in residence for about 30k or more.
shanevella | May 11, 2010 at 11:57 pm |

I read this statement by Stunny Pharouk who happens to be half Egy ptian and half
German, but who was taken as being Black ev en though his skin is fair. He was treated
badly in Germany because he has wav y hair that goes kinky in the water but goes
Indian if he drinks ascorbics and is V EGAN. He wrote this: That being so; our wall
reliefs of Egy ptians depict our ancesters with woolly hair that billows out ower their
shoulders with nubica (nupticals/ twisted curls-knots) at the ends? Albinoism is when
racism decided to keep colour out, and in the Egy ptian and Coptic language a sitera
or a sitrey is a woman who is a setter, and doesnt imply racial incest at all. Africans
alway s call their women sisters Sos- sat meaning hip-sitters in sex ual terms.
The term denotes the Indian word sutera meaning to sow a seed or to join with a
stitch to marry with a needle, which are keen to procreation and are also nonkatalistic unlike genetic sociological incest practiced by Europeans phobic of colour
who read the Tora! I think he was skoffing y ou off! as he likes to say . Anthropology
is probably an old school of racism. Most people outside of Europe are mix ed. Its a
fact. Sex ual attraction is more powerful than racism.
luis | December 24, 2008 at 6:25 pm | Reply

Justin thank y ou for y ou kind reply .I liv e in Spain and I know pretty well the area were
pasiegos liv e:four small v alley s west cantabria.One of the reasons I had to inv estigate my dna
was that in my family tree (with almost 1 00 people)starting around i600 and with little
endogamy ,no one had a basque surname.Those v alley s are less than ten miles from
V izcay a!Also the area has hundreds of cav es,many with prehistric paintings.
Don Blake | December 24, 2008 at 6:50 pm | Reply

The problem with this study is that it tries to claim that the migrants out of Africa that
ev olv ed into N lineages 30,000 y ears ago are somehow Caucasians, ev en if they only had
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just left Africa. Likewise, it goes on to claim that the migrants carry ing U6a who they say
possibly originated in East Africa were Caucasians as well.
First, Caucasian is a reference to a set of Mountains in Southern Russia. It is not a phenoty pe.
Caucasians therefore do not originate in East Africa. And white skin only dev eloped
thousands of y ears after the migrations of humans out of Africa and into the far north of
Europe and Asia. These migrants from East AFrica did not simply turn into white Caucasians
by v irtue of crossing form Africa into Asia. Y et this is the underly ing methodology being
applied in this study , which stresses Caucasia as a basis for human biodiv ersity , y et
COMPLETELY ignores the fact that all humans originate in Africa and therefore that all
human biodiv ersity originates in Africa among black Africans. Claiming that North Africans
were indigenous Caucasians is about as illogical as it gets, especially considering that any
back migrations from Eurasia 30,000 y ears ago were of black African deriv ed people.
Putting Caucasian into this only serv es to pretend that these original settlers of Eurasia did
not come from Africa, were not the basis of the biodiv ersity in Eurasia and that these people
were all black for most of their time IN Eurasia up until may be 1 0-20,000 y ears ago. All of
the regions surrounding Africa would hav e been initially populated by black Africans, ev en
after mutations like M and N. M and N do not signify the ev olution of white skin, they only
signify random changes in genetic mutations. Try ing to pretend otherwise is simply
dishonest.
mathilda37 | December 27, 2008 at 10:34 am | Reply

The problem w ith this study is that it tries to claim that the migrants out of Africa that
evolved into N lineages 30,000 years ago are somehow Caucasians even if they only
had just left Africa
Let m e just stop y ou there.
A, Im not letting y ou repeat that bollocks endlessly , so just giv e it up and go to
Egy ptsearch. Y oud think that not one single anthropologst agrees with the bulllshit y ou
are try ing to spout as gospel here (ev en the black ones) might clue y ou in to the fact y ou
are incorrect.
B, They hadnt just left Africa. LMAO. Where do y ou get y our info? Off the back of a cereal
packet? There are modern human remains at least 7 0K old in China, and signs of
continued modern human occupation in the Far East after the Toba ex plosion 7 4k ago.
Add on the roughly 1 5k it would hav e taken for the population to hav e ex panded to the far
East, and y ou are looking at at least 85K for an OOA ex it date and probably older than
1 00k, as some of the remains in China are looking good for ov er the 90k date. So a
minimum of 45k plus a founder effect is more than enough to stop them being black
Africans, which is what y ou seem to be claiming here.
C, The modern human remains from North Africa about the date of the back migration are
so similar to the Paleolithic European ones they used to get called North African Cro
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Magnons, and are roughly similar to modern Europeans, if a bit more robust. They are
roughly Caucasoid, if not an ex act match for modern Europeans/ North Africans. In fact
theres a European carv ing called the Brno head y ou should look at, as these people about
26k ago were pretty closely related to the North Africans, and its v ery conspicuosly not
a black looking face.
D, Y et again I see that bullshit about that one mutation turning black people white. DUH,
NO. It only accounts for a third of the difference between lighter African groups like the
San, who can be a v ery light caramel colour when out of the tropical sun (I know, Im
related to one). It turned Europeans from a strong tan like the middle Eastern people to
pasty pink, not from black to white.
First, Caucasian is a reference to a set of Mountains in Southern Russia. It is not a
phenotype
Also, y ou seem to think Caucasoid means white. NO. It means Caucasoid, it is a
phenotype, and it includes south Asians like Pakistanis and North Africans. The location it
was originally attached to is meaningless, as the word now refers to a skull shape and
racial grouping.
all human biodiversity originates in Africa among black Africans.
NO, again. Since masses of mutations seen in modern humans dont hav e an African origin,
like pale skin and blue ey es for a starter. This is a fallacy often repeated by the ignorant.
In essence, y ouv e posted a long block of waffle that demonstrates how little y ou know.
The fact that y ou used the word Caucasia is quite frankly laughable. The North Africans,
in their ancient art and bones, show themselv es to be mainly Caucasoid people.
This comment was only good for one thing, its a good ex ample of all the bullshit that
Afrocentrics believ e.

NubianMoor, this is ex actly because they are not black that Berbers in general (not only
Kaby les) hav e the highest skin cancer rate under the sunny climate of north Africa!

Luis, y oure welcome, thats alway s a pleasure to ex change with a brother from Iberia.
The Bass | December 28, 2008 at 10:40 am | Reply

The only DNA ev idence we see is U6, which has a patchy distribution in North Africa and isnt
ev en the predoiminate mtDNA haplogroup. Cro-Magnons were not Caucasoid and do not
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closely resemble any of the modern popuklations in North Africa and Europe. The Euros
hav e presented no ev idence of caucasoids in North Africa since 30,000 y ears ago
C.Bass | December 28, 2008 at 4:44 pm | Reply

Ancient North Africans are *NOT* Cauacsoids and the ancient crania are morphologically
distinct from the modern ones, we can hav e this debate right here and Mr Bass will win.

Since I hav e specific studies of the bones in North Africa that descibes them as either
Caucasoid or mediterannoid, Ill pass on that Charlie.

Interesting article found in the Scotsgenealogy website:
http://www.scotsgenealogy .com/
Unfortunately , There is no direct link, so once in the website, just follow these two steps:
On the left menu click on On-line Information
Then click on the article OUR ANCIENT COUSINS THE BERBERS

Cool. thank y ou. Id heard of the story , but nev er seen much detail about it.
Far Western Europeans look a fair bit like North Africans. Im of Welsh ancestry , and when
I pick up ev en a mild tan I could pass for a Berber woman. We tend to look more
Mediterranean than other Northern Europeans.

Y oure absolutely right Mathilda37 . Thats surely due to the post-LGM Iberia spread
Towards the European northwestern parts.
Y ou are a CeltiBerber as Luis and me!
Liz Bradshaw | December 31, 2008 at 1:47 am | Reply

Hi interesting post Matilda, Iv e read a few of y our blogs and alway s found them useful for
my own amataeur research! OK about the abov e thread on the Welsh/ancient British and
Berber connection
From what Iv e been looking at ov er the past two y ears, it seems to me that the Iberian
refugia of the last glacial peopled a surprisingly div erse number of cultures. As I understand
the Berbers like the Basques and British hav e a higher percentage of rhesus negativ e, as well
as startlingly similar phy sical apearences as the lady abov e states (I saw this too in Crete, I
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hav e a photograph of a Cretan shepherd who looked as if hed marched up from the
v alley s!LOL) On a side note, I read one genetic report which attested that the main
haplogroups in Crete were from North Africa, I notice on y our illustration of rock art, that
the women closely resemble those of the Minnoans. There is also the question of the X
haplogroup found in the Clov is culture Nativ e Americans like the Ojibwa, I think the
genetisist Stev e Jones comments on this, say ing that it is also found in the Welsh. Berber
music too has many correspondences with Irish and Gaelic as Bob Quinn pointed out some
30 y ear ago and has, I see, republished with a seal of approv al from Pro. Cuncliffe! Then there
is that tennuous connection to the Saamis way up in the North of Europe! WOW!
I think the consensus these day s is that the term Celt is redundant and those of us on the
British Isles hav e more in common with Spain and possibly the Middle East than the fabled
La Tene culture. (look too at the megalithic culture which seemed to originate in North
Africa.) I too read that article on Scotsgenealogy and was v ery surprised by his comparisons
to Gaelic. I hav e argued with a friend who is more of a Linguist than I, that i believ e the
indigenous British languages we call today Celtic although Indo-European, hav e a strong
Afro-Asiatic flav our, as if those who adopted them had spoken another language before, I
believ e for instance the sy ntax and grammar in Welsh is similar to Afro-Asiatic. The Amizigh
are a fascinating people, thanks for the info and somewhat liv ely debate:-)
Liz Bradshaw | December 31, 2008 at 2:05 am | Reply

PSon a side note a while back I couldnt help noticing that the Linear A/B script of the
Minoans bore quite a resemblence to ancient Berber. I cant beleiv e no one has spotted this,
may be they hav e? I get the impression they hav e been looking towards Greece and further
into Asia, but with the genetic data, surely its obv ious where the language origniated but
hey what do I know? Its been a while since I was an under-grad!!LOL

Y ep, the Welsh are Atlantic Mediterranoid ty pes. My mothers family are all small, dark and
round faced with a tendencey to tan quickly . The Celtic languages had an Afro Asiatic
language ty pe grammar structure, not an Indo European one. They think Indo European
words were ov erlaid onto a AA grammar structure when farming arriv ed(IE seems to spread
with neolithic farmers from northern Turkey ).
Western parts of Britain were repopulated from the Iberian refuge population after the ice
age, which would ex plain why we and the Basques are a lot alike. There was some population
mov ement from North Africa into Iberia during the LGM, which could ex plain the language
similarities.
The Minoans were colonised from Anatolia, but the same population ended up on the North
African coast, so I guess they could all hav e come from the same root population or ev en be
Minoan in origin. Theres patchy ev idence that writing is a fair bit older in Southern Europe
than was prev iously thought, so well hav e to wait to see how this all pans out.
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Liv ely debate AKA me getting fed up with some v ery dim people thinking that a couple of
descriptions with the word black in them wil suddenly make all the artwork and classical
desciptions and anthropological/DNA studies magically v anish. Y es, Im getting a bit cranky
with them. They nev er hav e any thing intelligent to say .
mathilda37 | January 2, 2009 at 6:32 pm | Reply

Well done NubianMoor, thanks to that little (deleted) race hate rant all y our comments now
by pass the comments sy stem and hit the bin without being seen.
Bite me. All the qualified anthropolgists and DNA studies show modern Berbers hav ent
changed, and y ou nev er supplied one properly sourced thing that said otherwise.
Dana Rey nolds-Marniche essential argument is that the qualified phsical anthropolgists and
genticists are wrong, nothing else. Shes a bone fide nutjob. I hav e hundreds of images of
North africans in their own art and depicted by others, and they dont show black Africans.
But these things just dont ex ist for y ou do they ?
Justin | January 3, 2009 at 7:56 pm | Reply

Y ou will find below a link, which will show y ou some supplementary photos on Amazighs:
Some pictures say often more than many words
mathilda37 | January 3, 2009 at 8:50 pm | Reply

V ery nice, thanks Justin. theres a new page called the Faces of North Africa y ou might
like.
http://mathildasanthropology blog.files.wordpress.com/2009/01 /ev 1 3.png
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ANTHROPOLOGIQUE | January 22, 2009 at 8:34 pm | Reply

Original Berbers were clearly Eurasian and white. They bear some similarities to people in
the far south of Portugal, Spain as well as southwest France.
It should be said that some Berber tribes co-opted small percentages of black and mix ed race
people (from Mauritania and the Senegal) during the Almorav id inv asion of Iberia in the 9th1 0th centuries. Berber tribes, howev er, continue to be ov erwhelmingly white, with facial
features consistent with Europeans.
Dana Marniche | January 28, 2009 at 11:49 pm | Reply

Thanks for fighting for y our ancestors people. This lady is obv ious not an anthropologist or
she wouldnt be bringing up people like Coon who are in fact are not seen as reputable. Her
idea that the Tuareg who still bear their ancient clan names listed by the Greco-Romans, as
newcomers to North Africa speaks for itself. And she is calling me the nutjob. By the way
Mezikes (ancient Amazigh) are mentioned in a Roman documents such as Ex positio Totius
Mundi as Ethiopians. My website will be up soon with all the bibliography . As far as photos
go of Amazigh ev ery one should understand that is now the generic name for Berberspeakers, when in earlier times it is a name for only one Maurusoi group in the area of Tripoli
and Tunis. see Gsell in La Tripolitaine. p 1 7 if y ou can read French.
mathilda37 | January 29, 2009 at 10:52 am | Reply

Dana
I only used that Coon reference to point out how someone on Rastaw ire w as misusing a
quote of his to prove North Africans w ere all black. Point out he is out of date to them.
On this blog y oull find masses of v ery recent DNA studies and anthropological studies and
portriats of ancient North Africans, and pictures of their skulls. They show that Eurasian
ty pe people hav e been there at least 1 2,000 y ears, with more input in the Neolithic. The
Tuareg only arriv ed a few thousand y ears ago, from the Nile area where they were one
population with the Beja, which is recent to me as Im into the Holocene era.
Make an effort to look at the artwork from Roman and By zantine North Africa, which
doesnt show a single black face, and neither do the Egy ptian depictions of Liby ans. I
notice on the rastawire pages the art done by North africans of themselv es is
conspicuously absent.
Dana, y ou are only familiar with (and then only the bits y ou want to see) what is written in
history books, and that is essentially hearsay , and sometimes third and fourth hand
hearsay . We hav e their bones, and their DNA, and the art they left depicting themselv es.
Once y ou got onto the coast, North africans where white.
As for the crap about European women slav es whitening up North Africa.. Europeans arab
era slav es 1 .5 million, black Africans about 1 4 million. And the Guanches (all North
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African), unmix ed with any slav e group where only ev er described as tanned and blonde,
and were enthuastically married by the Spanish inv aders.
Y es y ou did get Ethiopians in North Africa, but further inland around the desert oases, the
same as today . As is observ ed in classical tex ts. Its a v ery multiethnic place the Sahara.
BTW, Europeans commonly used the word black to refer to a person with black hair and a
tan right into the 20th century , gy psies were often called black. Brown was used to refer to
Northern Europeans with a tan in mediev al literature.
There hav e been black groups in the Sahara too, as shown at Uan Muhuiggiag, but right
nex t to white groups (theres a v ery old v ery white mummy from the same era just a few
miles away from it). But ev en y our black North Africans hav e a substantial amount of
Eurasian ancestry in them.
Moroccan berber | February 5, 2009 at 9:14 pm | Reply

thx mathilda
Im Moroccan berber from Rabat capital of Morocco , Im white with red hair and pharaonic
ey es ! my country are mostly populated by berbers (arbizeds or not arabizeds) but we hav e
different colors of hairs (blond-red-dark-brown-..also other strange color like white/blue)
mostly of my people are white,pal-oliv e skin also ty pically look like spaniards , I dont know
why we hav e this similarity and I know already that spaniard are racists against Moroccans
they occuped two Moroccan cities (ceuta and mellila ,also other Islands like shafarinas
islands and canary islands)
!!!!
finally !
I think berbers are cro-magnons

for ex ample Moroccan women hav e different by colors hairs !!!
watched :
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we are Maliki (muslims) others are jews (toshav im) also called sephardics , my people
conv erted to some religions for ex ample christianity in ancient souss v ally before the arriv al
of Islam ,berbers are pagans at first time but until today ,they hav e some religions,because
my people believ e to the second life after the death ,we are believ ers from ancient time !
Moroccans hav e build large monuments for y ou to see :
http://cache.v irtualtourist.com/2836888-Tour_Hassan-Rabat.jpg
http://www.casafree.com/modules/x cgal/albums/userpics/38023/Hassan%20II%20Mosq
ue.jpg
http://www.casafree.com/modules/x cgal/albums/userpics/38023/Hassan%20II%20Mosq
ue%202.jpg
I think that the Moroccans hav e a megalithic culture (Islamic v ersion ) until today !!

thx mathilda
Im Moroccan berber from Rabat capital of Morocco , Im white with red hair and pharaonic
ey es ! my country are mostly populated by berbers (arbizeds or not arabizeds) but we hav e
different colors of hairs (blond-red-dark-brown-..also other strange color like white/blue)
mostly of my people are white,pal-oliv e skin also ty pically look like spaniards , I dont know
why we hav e this similarity and I know already that spaniard are racists against Moroccans
they occuped two Moroccan cities (ceuta and mellila also other Islands like shafarinas island
and canary island)
!!!!
finally !
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I think berbers are cro-magnons
Kiwi Phil | February 10, 2009 at 10:57 am | Reply

Fascinating page! I came here after googling E1 b1 b1 b2 which is the haplogroup my DNA
belongs too. The Berber connection has been puzzling me because my paternal ancestry is
British (with a common Welsh surname). Y et the ev idence suggests affinities with the Atlas
and Iberia. How did those people get to Wales?
I guess were still inv estigating that one and Ill watch the web with interest. Coincidentally I
spent a few day s in the north Morrocan Rif mountains in 2006 and was struck by the fairly
common incidence of blue ey es and fair skins. At the time, I commented that the Moors
looked more euro than the Spanish
mathilda37 | February 10, 2009 at 2:06 pm | Reply

North Africans trav elled a long distances looking for tin in the bronze age, or y ou could
hav e a Roman Legionaire as an ancestor-they recruited from all ov er the empire including
North Africa Mr Jones.
Excalibur | April 29, 2009 at 6:37 pm | Reply

To Phil Kiwi,Mathias,Antropo et al.
I hav e a curiosity for the North African ethnics,and their origins,as its seemly my
paternal dna ancestry came from that origin.Curiously I hav e genetic matches that tie me
closer with people from Wales,Algeria,Morocco,Scotland and other Iberian and French
people.Mostly along the Atlantic coast of Europe.
Mrs.Mathilda has speculated that it may be due to the romans or to tin mines prospectors
or traders.
She also estates the origins of these northern cultures ex tant until today or recent times
was due to a heav y influx of euroasians from the east along the northern african coasts
and immediate inlands bound by the Sahara ex tension,though smaller at those times.
While all these seems v ery interesting,and much complex than it looks,many other
questions could be taken from other factors in neighbor areas.Then,as later.
Looking at the presence of a more complex Mt-dna genetic v ariance that hints at different
ethnic-genesis for the demographic composition of the modern result population in
northern Africa,that is highly unbalanced in proportions to the male genetic result,and
hence, prov enience(?),one cant fail notice the prox imity to european coasts longer
occupied perhaps and the presence ov er them of cultures and female haplogroups also
found later in Africa.
My own Mt-dna,V is v ery common in the Basque country where my family has been liv ing
since centuries.Howev er,this one also shows in the same line of direction along the
Atlantic coasts of Europe,being the higher frequency found among some Scandinav ian
shepherds too,but curiously among some Berber women and other north africans!
The records track get more interesting,because along this Mt-dna traces another one supposedly northafrican-shows up among the same isolated population minority in
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Scandinav ia,the Mt-DNA haplogroup U6!

So,at which time they may hav e taken the road north in search of metal,legions,or
food,these peoples with more than pastoralism in their v eins as common?
or the roads went south,from Scandinav ia?
(as some white suprermacists claim,locating Atlantis among Ary ans of that North)
Which way to Rome?
or all roads came from Rome?
ANTHROPOLOGIQUE | February 12, 2009 at 3:37 pm | Reply

Most people hav e little knowledge of Berbers and just assume they are not white. Of course
what they see in the media are ex amples of mix ed race people who CLAIM to be of Berber
descent.
I for one nev er believ ed that nativ e origin Berbers were any thing but North African whites.
The problem is that the Arab inv asion in the 5th century (mostly , but not all white), and the
1 1 th century recruitment of negroes from Mauritania and the Senegal to fight in the
Almorav id armies, changed the racial composition of some Moroccan Berber tribes.

Kiwi Phil:
The great majority of the Welsh people is R1 b Y -haplogroup and Atlantic Celt haploty pe.
Many people in northern and central Portugal and Spain are R1 b and part of the Celtic
haploty pe. The original Celtic ancestors of a most British Isles populations came from Iberia.
For ex ample, the Irish DNA markers match or correlate v ery closely with northern
Portuguese and Galicians (NW Spain).
As far as y our Berber haplogroup goes, there may well hav e been Berber elements in Iberia
well prior to the Roman, Germanic and Islamic inv asions. Therefore there may hav e been a
few Iberian Celts who were part Berber.
mathias | February 12, 2009 at 10:22 pm | Reply

ANTHROPOLOGIQUE = AFROCENTRISTS
BERBERS ARE MORE WHITE MORE BLOND than spaniards or italians !!
Berbers are defined as Mediterraneans with moderate Alpinid & Nordic admix ture closer to
Europeans than to Arabs or Africans. This is supported by a scientific study done on Rif and
atlas Berbers showing that 38.6% of the Rif ,atlas Berbers hav e blue or green ey es a
percentage higher than that found in Itlaians or Spaniards ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

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Berbers do hav e a v ery high precentage of blonds. The purest berbers, the isolated
Guanches, were described as often blond and blue ey ed by the spanish when the
conquered them. No European slacv e ancestors or arab ancestry in them.
Dana | February 15, 2009 at 2:25 am | Reply

Why would y ou put photos of Roman paintings up on y our site and classify them as Mauri is
the true question. Furthermore, y ou keep confusing the people Coon classified as hamitic
caucaoids with mesocephalic non African peoples represented in Kaby lia and northern
Morocco. What I am I to respond y ou to Mathilde? and try not to delete this answer. The
Mauri were said to hav e worn braided curls in their hair and rings in their ears. They are well
described as black in color by almost all the Romans and the Greeks, Iranians like and the
Iraqis like Ibn Butlan describe the Ketama who mov ed down from Numidia, Sanhaja tribes
(who are Lamta Lamtuna tuareg of Niger ) whom Leo Africanus said were also ancient
Numidians still claim descent as blacks. They are otherwise describes simply as Ethiopians
as in the Ex postio Totius Mundi quoted by S. Gsell in La Tripolitaine where it is applied to the
Mezikes (from which comes the term Amazigh). All those tribes that were calledf Berbers or
Babars in ancient times were described as blacks and dark brown in color. There is nothing
tan about most Tuareg or Nafusa (of the Zenata ) or Masmuda (the blacks of Abu Shama and
Chosroes of the 1 1 th and 1 2th c. A.D. They remain the color they say they were. Dont
confuse Greeks and Roman with nomads of African and in fact Ethiopic origin. I dont care
what kind of Caucasoid terminology Coon and his cronies used for them. Gy psies were called
black and kinky haired because many that came into Europe through Spain were just that!
know y our history and dont confuse it with others!
Quote from 1 827 The men were v ery black, with their hair frizzled, the women were the
most ugly and the blackest that were ev er seen. .. they had sorceresses amongst them , who
by pretended to look into peoples hands, to tell them what had or would happen to them
p. 1 53 of The Christian journal and Literary Reigster published I 1 827 by T & J. Swords?
Photo Arabian gy psies , European gy psies James Micheners Iberia Spanish Trav els and
Reflections 1 968.
1 8?? We were not far from Pressburg when at once we heard in the distance, a singing,
shouting and hallooing which continually grew nearer. Presently we met four wagons, in
which a brown company of gy psies were seated. It was a curious sight. Their sat men and
women, girls and boy s all dark as half-negroes, in ragged array , with long shining hair,
smeared after Hungarian fashion with lardWe gazed at them in astonishment Wanderings
of a Journey man Tailor through Europe and the East: During the y ears 1 824 to 1 840
I am sorry y ou are not familiar with the way some gy psies still look in Europe. Just because
many of them hav e mix ded with Europeans doesnt they werent once black as Egy ptians adn
Jats they came from.

LMAO Danaplease, I deal in science on this site not bullshit. Please read prior comment
about iffy descriptions. Y ou do like to omit the ones that descibe inv ading moors as being
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occasionally blond etc. Theres art from the By zantine era showing white north Africans
too.
Those roman mosaics are not of any one else other than north Africans. Not a single black
face. Please ex plain why the Egy ptians painted them as white and they themselv es painted
themselv es as white in the cav e art?
Gy psies are originally from India y ou m oron.

Dana the woman I hav e shown to be an outright liar elsewhere ranting on senselessly .
Do me a fav our and actually try to quote some paper or DNA study that shows ancient
North Africans to be black.. hint, y oull hav e a sodding fruitless search.
If y ou really want historical references; Scilax mentions fair liby ans, and at a later date
Procopious speaks of a population with white skin and fair hair. Callimachus also m noted
the fair Liby an women among the inhabitants of Cy renaica. The Egy ptians alway s showed
liby ans with pale skin. The question is why do the Romans when depicting the locals in
those mosaics and they arelocals , fisherman, serv ants and slav es- not one is black.
Y ou know all y ou ev er do is dig up the few descriptions of North Africans y ou can find that
could be interpreted to mean black, and y ou steer well clear of any reference to any
publication to do with anthropology as y ou know they alway s disagree with y ou. PLease,
quote a DNA study on ancient bones or a crania study that shows ancient Liby ans to be
any different to the modern.
Gypsies w ere called black and kinky haired because many that came into
Europe through Spain w ere just that! know your history and dont confuse it
w ith others!
T ake the trouble to read up on the origins of the gy psies ev en Wiki has a decent
item on them. They originate from India not Spain. LMAO We hav e numerous portraits of
them, from olde England, they dont look ev en v aguely African and modern gy psies hav e
zero ancestry that traces to Africa. They diodnt come from africa v ia spain-where do y ou
get that crap? both Y chromosmes and mitochondiral DNA and their own Indo European
(not African) language shows they came from the Punjab area in the Middle Ages.
Thanks for digging up the descriptions of Gypsies as black though, to prov e my point that
black doesnt mean black African. V ery handy ; ex pect to see that being used by me.
Again, y ou are a moron Dana.
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Secondly y ou show paintings of Liby ans from the time of Seti which a relativ ely late period in
the Egy ptian dy nasties. In fact these Liby ans y ou show where the hair sty les and cosutmes of
people who are earlier during the Old kingdom shown only in Brown skin. I was fortunate
enough to study in the Oriental Museum in the Univ ersity of Chicago where i saw some of
these populations and learned about them. That is why Oric Bates speaks about the
x anthrochroids or fair skinned Liby ans as being late comers. Only dark skinned Lebou
Tjehenou are shown in Old Kingdom paintings. Thus if this is indeed the true color of the
Liby ans of the time of New Kingdom the fact that they are wearing the same accoutrement
and costumes of earlier Woodabe looking people of the Sahara makes it certain they were at
the most mulatto descendants of the early Liby ans or Lebou. Lastly and perhaps most
importantly , there was absolutely no neolithic white mummy found in the Sahara. Like the
lancient Egy ptians the skeleton was quite like those of modern Cushitic or semitic speakers of
Ethiopia. Y ou might want to look into Nabta Play a y a Sudanese site where the prototy pe of
the neolithic megaliths of Europe hav e been found. naturally the neolithic peoples of the
Stone Henge hav e been classified by Coon as Mediterranean ty pes although Elliot Smith said
they were identical to Somali and Bedja, etc. If y ou are going to keep putting people of
Eurasiatic origin and calling them the true Berbers Moors, Arabs an whatev er y ou will need
to ex plain why their are rarely photos up on y our site of Sanhaja or Ketama, Nafusa (Zenata),
Masmuda, Lamtuna, Goddala and modern Berbers, including the dark brown Kaby les whom
were claimed to be the majority of kanby les in the mid 1 9th century and who appear in
photographs all of the Egy pt forum blog site.

The Gaunches arent pure any thing but descendants of Europeans brought to the area. Arent
y ou interested in researching history too?!. Nex t thing y ou will be say ing is that they are
descenants of Phoenicians like some wishful thing colonialists used to do.

The Guanches showed up as ty pically North Africa for mt DNA they tested their remains,
they arent European. they also make up a large part of the modern Canatries DNA pool.
Also, ty pically Eurasian ancestry shows up in North African bones that are 1 2k old. Their
arriv al predates the birth of Christ in the Canaries.
Y ou are so desperate to make the ancient North African people black.. heres a hint find
me some actual science to back that up (not y our carefully cherry picked and usually v ery
deceptiv e descriptions that leav e out half of the relev ant info). No anthropologist will
agree with y ou that before the modern era North africans were any different than they are
now

Mathias:
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What y ou say is a bit ex aggerated. Y es, there are blond and light ey ed elements in NATIV E
ORIGIN Berbers. Some of that is a result of the original gene pool, no question, but it was
enhanced by the V andal occupation of North Africa.
The Spanish and Portuguese, in percentage terms, hav e more light ey es, red and blond hair
than Italians, Greeks, southern French and, y es, Berbers. This is particularly true in the
central and northern regions of the Iberian Peninsula, where Germanics and nordicized
Celts (the original Celts were darker, more Alpine) ruled for hundreds of y ears (in the case of
the Celtic tribes, more than a thousand y ears). It is absurd to thinks that all Spaniards are
dark.
I dont get what y ou are say ing about my being Afrocentric. That is an unfair and unjustified
comment. I am hardly that. In fact, I suspect that the Berbers were one of the earliest settlers
in Europe.

to Anthropologique
V andals hav e not colonized Morocco!
y ou must consulted the territory v andals who held just in the sides of the Mediterranean in
northern Tunisia and northren eastern part of algeria
Morocco is a country too remote compared to other countries of North Africa, Arabsand
romans couldnt inv ade this country (consult history of Morocco)!
Moors are Berbers 1 00%! I know they are ty pically Moroccan indigenous too! they resemble
to the old Cromagnons
watched : berbers from MOROCCO
http://i3.y timg.com/bg/zy HB8h-gd3K8K-bONmo2Hg/default.jpg?app=bg&v =4e8bc1
y es, the first Celtic are Berbers from Morocco across the Strait of Gibraltar

to dana
y ou know that there are berber pharaos (ly bian pharaos ) ?!!!
just like Ramses II and sheshonq ,Takelot and more others ..!
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Go get em Mathilda37
I am so tired of people spreading misinformation about v arious and sundry people around
the world. The absolute worst are the afrocentrist ty pes who are clueless about ev ery thing, it
seems. I dont know, may be by deluding themselv es into thinking that ev ery one is black or
part black it makes them feel better about their own identitiesInsane!

Dana:
Where do y ou get y our information from, comic books? Bizarre

Dana, y ou are so full of crap its funny .
Y ouv e also quoted C.Coon and tried to pretend he said ancient Berbers were black- I only
mentioned him because I needed to show y ou were ly ing/stupid. So reign back on the shes
using a racist source BS, y ou used him first (Rastawire).
Lastly and perhaps most importantly, there w as absolutely no neolithic w hite mummy
found in the Sahara.
BULLSHIT
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Please refer to link on the white lady mummies from central Liby a .Only a few miles from the
Uan Muhuggiag black mummy . Complete with picture.
http://mathildasanthropology blog.wordpress.com/2009/01 /21 /the-six -thousand-y earold-mummies-from-takarkori-liby a/
Please feel free to mail me links to other decent images of Liby ans from the Moorish era and
earlier. Not that in the time y ouv e spammed this blog y ouv e produced any ev idence at all to
support y ourself. BTW, Tuareg only arriv ed in North Africa a few thousand y ears ago,
genetically they are East African in origin. Check out the Link to the DNA study done on
them
The History and Geography of Human Genes
although Tuareg speak a Berber language, they show a closer genetic
relationship w ith the Beja. The origin of the Tuareg is not fully understood. They
may have moved to the centre of the Sahara to avoid Arab attacks in the seventh
and eleventh centuries AD, but their earlier w hereabouts are not know n.
Also, read Golden Age of the Moor properly for a description of their similar customs.
Most of the skulls from the Neolithic Sahara are Mediterranoid Caucasians, only about 25%
are ty pically black.
Italian anthropolologist Sergi established the follow ing proportions of prehistoric
skulls in the Fezzan: 46.6.% of w hite mediterranean, 26.6% of Eurafrican
negroized and 26.6% of Negroes.
Marie-Claude Chamla established that the protohistoric remains of the Sahara
w ere only about 25% Negro. The mixed type w hich corresponds to the Negroized
Eurafrican type of Sergi w as about 20% and Eurafricans w ho w ere not
negroized represent 41 % of the results.
also.
. three principal morphological types w ere discerned by Mme Chamla for the
proto historical period. Tw enty five percent of the identifiable remains w ere
negroid, and these w ere rare in the Sahara bu preponderant further south. A third
w ere of a mixed type in w hich both negroid and non negroid features w ere found.
the remainder w ere not negroid in their characteristics, and these w ere
preponderant in the Sahara but extremely rare further to the south. the same
racial mixture w as evident in the Fezzan at the same period; here there w as a
preponderance of Mediterranean characteristics and a smaller proportion of
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classical negroids
Y et again, not one single peice of science in any of y our ranting. Y ou are in complete denial
of the DNA studies which show a Eurasian ty pe people in North Africa ov er 1 2k ago.
If it wasnt for the humour v alue I wouldnt let y ou post here. Ex ample..
naturally the neolithic peoples of the Stone Henge hav e been classified by Coon as
Mediterranean ty pes although Elliot Smith said they were identical to Somali and Bedja,
Grafton Elliot Smith born 1 87 1 . LMAO. Believ ed all megalithic cultures came from Egy pt
or Nubia. Now known to be, well, just plain wrong as older structures are found in Turkey and
central Europe than in Egy pt. LMAO some more.
BTW, Many Southern British are ty pically mediterranoid today , me included. Its a ty pe of
Caucasoid (white folks to y ou).
The fact y ou claimed Gy psies were African in origin prov es y ou are a total moron.
ANTHROPOLOGIQUE | February 27, 2009 at 1:09 am | Reply

Oh y eah, sure, Gy psies originated from black Africaand purple elephants inhabit the skies.
ANTHROPOLOGIQUE | February 27, 2009 at 1:16 am | Reply

Y es, the Southern BritishMost are what is referred to as Q-Celtic and they are descendant
from the original Celts of Iberia. Y es, many Spaniards and Portuguese are tribal kin of the
Welsh, Cornish, Irish and ev en the Western Scots the Atlantic Celts. Many of their DNA
markers match or correlate v ery closely with the populations of Western Iberia, particularly
the North West (Galicia, Asturias in Spain and Minho, Douro and Tras-os-Montes in Portugal.
Small world, isnt it?

Small w orld, isnt it?
Y es it is ANTHROPOLOGIQUE. Whenev er I pick up any kind of tan I get mistaken for
Spanish or Italian.
ANTHROPOLOGIQUE | March 4, 2009 at 2:06 pm | Reply

I think what y ou are doing is great, Mathilda
I am so tired at the lies and gross ex aggerations that the Afrocentric looney tunes put out
about race and ethnicity . The White Nationalists are nearly as bad and sometimes just as
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ignorant and mendacious as the Afros.
mathilda37 | March 4, 2009 at 2:53 pm | Reply

Well thanks, it;s a nice change from the Afronut hate mail I get.
djilali djaber | March 5, 2009 at 5:08 am | Reply

Sorry Ms Mathilda,I already gav e my opinion as a comment about the origin of the berbers
which was opposite to y our point of v iew,I did not know y ou defending a fact ( principle) that
y ou believ e and stick on it . I am not an afrocentric ,I am an algerian arab with kaby le blood
from my mother side,I recognize that the berbers of atlas Tellien are whites and the ones
from the south (Touareg) are blacks with some mix ture. But based on researchs made by
linguistics scientists as Maurice Delafosse ,
Joseph Greenberg,Theodore Benfey ,Friedrich Muller all of them said that Hamitic language is
afroasitic but y ou, y ou denied it ,I would to know why ? ex plain?
As an engineer agronomist ,I would not trust any one in the future .
As for hy pothesis wich said most the arabs in the maghreb are of berber origin.This is the
21 th century propaganda Cest du bluff.I am originaire of IRAK from arab Djabour arch.

Joseph Greenberg,Theodore Benfey,Friedrich Muller all of them said that Hamitic
language is afroasitic but you, you denied it
No, actually I hav e a whole entry on the afro asiatic language around here somewhere
which goes into its African origins, although this is under dispute from a few sources. The
Berber/Egy ptian/Semetic group (north Afrasian) seem to be Asian in origin, and probably
arriv ed with the Neolithic from Asia.
As for hypothesis w ich said most the arabs in the maghreb are of berber origin.This is the
21 th century propaganda
Its not a hy pothesis. A lot of North African Arabs are pretty pissed at finding their
ancestry doesnt come from the holy land, but they dont really show much ancestry from
Asia. For the most part North African mens Y chromsomes are nativ e to North Africa,
whether they be Arab or Berber.

Ms Mathilda Hi !
I saw a documentary in PBS channel in 2001 -02 and it showed, on the basis of genetic
analy sis study that the human population started near the horn of Africa and mov ed
eastward and got div ided into two groups,one continue it journey to what is now called
Australia and the second group get to near minor asia and made a U turn toward
europe.Others mov ed south where they met a tough env ironement conditions of africa that
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made them more dark skinsThe document showed also a black tribe in south africa with
genetic link to the jews and they pretended that they are may be the lost israelite tribe.
The host of the show was a white man.
How y ou ex plain that?

They only hav e Jewish Y chromsomes- it would be sane to say that a small group of
Jewish men settled in Africa taking Jewish traditions with them. Saw the same thing on TV ,
had to do with the Ark of the Cov enant.
Don Blake | March 12, 2009 at 11:22 am | Reply

Matilda,
Berber is a language not an ethnic group. The Berber language originated in East Africa
according to Christopher Ehret and Igor Diakonoff. While some may argue for a Near
Eastern origin for Berber languages, many still stick to the v iew that it originates in East
Africa.
So the idea that The Berbers are defined by Eurasian ancestry is simply nonsense, as Berber
language and culture has no roots in Eurasia. Berber language and culture has its roots
completely in Africa. Y es many modern Berber speakers hav e Eurasian ancestry . But
Eurasian ancestry of some Berber speakers does not mean that Berber language and culture
originates in Eurasia. It does not. Languages are spoken by different ethnic groups with
different ancestries and such ancestry does not prov e the origin of a language. Howev er,
linguistic studies in conjunction with genetic and other studies can be useful for clues. But
here is where y ou play loose with the facts, because y our site is filled with claims of ancient
North Africans being Eurasian based on all sorts of studies and analy sis, as if to pretend
that these people were white, including ancient Nubians and Hausa no less. Any one who
would claim that ancient Hausa, Chadians, Saharans and Northern Sudanese are somehow
Eurasian people is simply not to be taken seriously . Nev ertheless, this is the basis of y our
analy sis and the crux of it, which is to prov e that ancient North Africans area a Eurasian race,
which means that black Africans are not the true original people of North Africa, which is
inherently false.
So again, as I said earlier, Berber languages are said to be a branch of Afro Asiatic which split
off in East Africa and mov ed West from around Northern Sudan. Sure, according to y ou,
these were Eurasian people, but I think not.
If the language did not originate there, then what is y our hy pothesis on how it got to Africa,
when and where did it come from and based on what ev idence? All y ou hav e done so far is
to show some pictures of modern white Berbers and imply that this makes Berber an ancient
language from Eurasia, which it does not. It does not matter how long people with white skin
hav e been in North Africa and I know they hav e been there for a few thousand y ears, but that
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does not mean that white skin and Eurasian ancestry is the basis of Berber languages or
culture in North Africa. This y ou hav e not shown.
And y our so called ev idence of a white mummy is meaningless as it is a corpse. Y ou dont
simply look at a dried ancient corpse and determine ancestry . It takes scientific analy sis. But
what do y ou ex pect from an amateur who pretends to be an ex pert?

because your site is filled w ith claims of ancient North Africans being Eurasian based
on all sorts of studies and analysis, as if to pretend that these people w ere w hite,
including ancient Nubians and Hausa no less
LMAO. Y et again Don y ou hav e the reading comprehension of a 5 y ear old. I said the
Hausa had an unusually high lev el of R1 b, which they do. I nev er said they were white.I
also said the Nubians were pretty much mix de race like Ethiopians in Lower Nubia, not
white. Again, y ou do like to make shit up.
Ehret claims a lot of thing, there are quite a few linguists (three last count) that back an
Asian orign for Afro Asaitic. Ehrets work shows itself to be seriously flawed on many
occassions, particularly in dating.
Berber language and culture has its roots completely in Africa.
Well, technically a large part of the culture arriv ed from the near East in the neolithic. And
then it was influenced by the Romans and Phoenicians and then the By zantine empire.
Black Africa makes a notable abscence from the history of North Africa in antiquity .
I think not.
I think y ouv e prov ed that ev ery time y ou posted a comment here Don.
All you have done so far is to show some pictures of modern w hite Berbers and imply
that this makes Berber an ancient language from Eurasia
No, Iv e pointed out Ehrets ancient dates are ridiculous for AA., and that the age of AA is
probably a better match for the Neolithic, which means an Asain POO is more likely .
Since I prev iously was all for an African origin for AA and posted articles on
its possible route out of Africa, y ou can kiss my arse when y ou claim this is all some
bias my part.
And your so called evidence of a w hite mummy is meaningless as it is a corpse
And y et Afrocentrists (like y ou) insist a single black mummy from Uan Muhuggiag means
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all of North Africa was black. Besides that, I hav e a mass of art from the neothic pastoral in
the Sahara showing v ery white North Africans, and access to plenty of anthropological
material that describes Neolithic Saharans as mainly EurAfricans or Caucasoid (white to
y ou) with about 25% being black.
And Iv e nev er pretended to be any thing other than a well informed (and well connected)
amateur keeping track of my research binges.
Don, the only reason Im allowing to to post this is because I hav e PMT and
need som eone to shred. Do y ourself a fav our, dont giv e m e the opportunity
to prov e y ou a m oron in public. I dont like fighting battles of wits with an
unarm ed opponent.
Don Blake | March 12, 2009 at 10:42 pm | Reply

Actually , y ou hav ent prov en the Nubians to be mix ed race. So again, while not claiming
them to be white, now y ou claim they were mix ed. The point being that somehow they were
mix ed with whites, because of R1 b, which is not prov en. R1 b does not prov e white skin or
race, which shows that much of y our analy sis is based on identify ing race in ancient
populations based on all sorts of non anthropological data. Language and genes do not prov e
race because race does not ex ist. And language and genes do not prov e skin color either.
I would like to know how black Africa is absent from antiquity ? Where did it go? Were not the
ancient Nubians black? Not to mention the predy nastic and dy nastic Egy ptians. But oh
wait, they were all mix ed with Eurasian whites who migrated to the Nile V alley 40,000 y ears
ago ev en though no whites ex isted 40,000 y ears ago.
And with all y our recent posts of Asian agriculture in north Africa y ou still show that the
Nile V alley was completely indigenous. Not to mention y our own article on the sub
saharan affinities of early Natufian remains. Seems to me y ou are contradicting y ourself.
And as far as the Liby an mummies go, the only one pretending to be competing on what
race of mummies they can find in Liby a is y ou. And no amount of try ing to bring up
Afrocentric straw men can change the fact that anthropologists not Afrocentrics called the
Liby an mummy a black mummy . It seems y ou feel the need to find a white mummy since
y ou are the one who feels that ancient North Africans were so mix ed. But I guess y ou need
to find something to substantiate y our claims of black Africa missing from antiquity . Uan
Muhuggiag was black in antiquity and certainly nobody else missed it. His mommy was most
likely black and so was his daddy . So somehow I dont see what y ou are calling y our facts to
the contrary other than imagining to see a white mummy based on absolute non scientific
observ ation.
Therefore, the only one try ing to make the race of ancient North Africans into a
competitions between whites and blacks seems to be y ou.

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Really a glutton for punishement Don arent y ou?

even though no w hites existed 40,000 years ago.
There were light skinned people 40k, just not quite as pasty as Norther Europeans aremore an Asian light tan colour, m odern Northern European skin m utations m ake
v irtually no difference to North Africans, as y ou seem to think they do. Natufians
are the product of a mix ed Eurasian and SSA migration into Israel (24k BP) after the older
back migration date (35k BP) fro Eurasian into Africa. (The OOA date is at least 85k ago
you moron, people w ere in East Asia 7 4k ago, they hadnt just left Africa as you like to
think). I nev er said the Natufians were black or all African, its unlikley they were any
darker than modern Isarealis after being mix ed with Eurasian and then hav ing about 1 0k
of time to adapt to lower UV lev els. Affinities to Africans means hav ing some
relationship to Africans, not the same as Africans . Like I said, y ou hav e the reading
com prehension of a fiv e y ear old.
R1 b does not prove w hite skin or race,
The R1 b prov es a population mov ement from North (asia) to south along the Nile at the
same time the AA languages appear in the area. I nev er said these people were other than
black that was all in y our tiny mind. One good look at a Chadic speaker will tell y ou thats
an idiot concept- unlike Nubians and Ethiopians who show a lot of Eurasian ancestry in
their skull shapes and the DNA studies. The Ouldeme R1 b has been through a lot of
bottlenecks. Not that y ou are smart enough to grasp that- y ou prov en y ourself to be a
simpleton on many occasions here.
And w ith all your recent posts of Asian agriculture in north Africa you still show that
the Nile V alley w as completely indigenous.
But strangely full of Asian crops and Asian animals. And not, it wasnt indigenous,
agriculture and animal husbany and Eurasian people entered Africa about 8,000 y ears
ago and brought their Asian crops and animals with them. Y ou also see a few aspects of
their culture in the Nile v alley area in predy nastic eras. So the Nile v alley was not some
isloated peice of all African purity as as y ou seem to want to desperately believ e.
genes do not prove skin color either
Actually , in large scale population studies they are a pretty good guide. If a population
shows mainly Eurasian ancestry - surprise surprise- they look Eurasian and pretty light
skinned. Mix ed populations look mix ed, with intermediate skin.
Ev ery publishing anthropologist (including Keita) has outrighted stated that dy nastic and
predy nastic Egy ptians are mainly the ancestors of modern Egy ptians- with Keita (y ou
know, the black one) m aking v ery sure to point out theres been NO
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VARIAT ION IN PHENT OY PE in Egy ptians (the interv iew with national Geographiclook it up here.) No, Black Africans really didnt play much part in classical Mediterranean
history . The old PD upper Egy ptians were essentially mix ed race, with the dy nastic
Egy ptians hav ing mostly Eurasian ancestry (bother to read some of Keitas work properly ,
there was a N to S population mov ement in the early dy nasties).
Its not a competition Don.. Im just hav ing to repeately correct the semi literate
uneducated driv el that y ou keep spouting here and else where. North Africans hav e been
mainly Eurafrican for about the last 1 0,000 y ears, and before that they were a mix ed
race buch called the Mechtoids. Modern North Africans mainly hav e Eurasian ancestry
that arriv ed in three wav es; in the Paleoithic, Mesolithic and Neolithic.
And the Uan mummy wasnt a straw man.. y ou guy s keep wav ing that one black mummy
around and wailing its proof they were all black, but I post one news legitimate news
item on the finding of the oldest mummy in North Africa and y ou hav e a massiv e hissy
because shes really obviously not black and it takes away one of y ou main proofs that
blacks created Egy ptian culture if the oldest mummy is white. How dare I show that a
w hite person w as mummified at an earlier date.
BTW, funny that y ou accept that anthropologists can tell when a skull is from a black
person in Africa, but when they all say and they do) that they show ty pically European
skulls and mix ed race skulls (along with white looking people in th contemporary rock art)
in the area y ou (agreeing with the DNA studies that show Eurasians in North Africa since
before history ) just wav e that little inconv enience aside in y ou quest to prov e all of
North Africa was black.
mietwagen | March 12, 2009 at 11:09 pm | Reply

Sehr gute Seite. Ich habe es zu den Fav oriten.
Don Blake | March 16, 2009 at 12:11 am | Reply

Actually Matilda no anthropologist believ es in race because there is no such thing. Y es all
humans v ary in phenoty pe, but phenoty pe is not race. What y ou mean is skin color and
skulls do not prov e skin color, especially of populations thousands of y ears ago in Africa. The
point being that y ou are taking it onto y ourself to define the races of ancient remains based
on y our own non scientific lay man point of v iew, using scientific studies and paraphrasing
them as if they were y our own, when they are not. But y ou pretend that because some study
say s something y ou believ e prov es a racial trait among ancient populations, y ou use it. The
point being that most of these studies do not mention race at all, only y ou are. Therefore,
y ou are the one try ing to turn this into a discussion of race and the mov ement of Eurasians in
particular as the epitome of a certain race. Howev er, the part y ou keep missing is that
Africans are the source of humanity , not Eurasians. Eurasians are not an ancient race to
themselv es. Africans are the most ancient form of human on the planet, including Eurasians.
Therefore, try ing to claim that 40,000 y ears ago, Eurasians were like modern white
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Europeans is nonsense. They were not. They were closer to their ancient African forebears
than modern Europeans.
Y es, there hav e been whites in Northern Africa for a few thousand y ears or more, but they
are not the original North Africans, they did not replace the aboriginal black Africans of
North Africa and no, black Africans were nev er foreign to North Africa. That is the part that
is simply a nonsense point of v iew pushed by y ou and not prov en by any means of the word.
40,000 y ears ago there was no mass migration of Eurasian whites into North Africa which
replaced the black Africans with some other non black ty pe. It is again simply y ou try ing to
find a way to take blacks out of North Africa in antiquity .
And the oldest mummy in North Africa is simply a dead body and none of the reports y ou
cited said any thing about the race of this corpse. Again, y ou are making up arbitrary
racial markers to define the race of a corpse, which has nothing absolutely to do with any
science other than y our attempts to take actual scientific studies and twist them to make it
seem that they say things which they dont.
And here is the article about the oldest mummy found in Egy pt and it say s absolutely nothing
about race or skin color. So again, the only one making this into a competition between
white and black is y ou and y ou seem hell bent on fighting a battle of white v ersus black,
since it seems that this is the core thrust of so many of y our posts, especially about North
Africa.
http://mathildasanthropology blog.wordpress.com/2008/08/23/oldest-egy ptiandeliberate-mummification-found/
And again, all of that nonsense about mummies does not change that the Berber language
originated in East Africa, according to many linguists, which has nothing to do with
Afrocentrism. But howev er it has something to do with y our precious ancient ex clusiv ely ,
predominantly white original north Africans and therefore, y ou are against it.

And again, all of that nonsense about mummies does not change that the Berber
language originated in East Africa, according to many linguists, w hich has nothing to do
w ith Afrocentrism.
With equally as many placing it Asia, and more in NE Africa. BTW, east Africa is now less
popular than the others, with Asia gaining ground in recent y ears.
As for the mummy , shes whiter than the Italians ex amining her, and y ou hav ent read
ALL the tex ts about them, I hav e. One was using her as an ex ample of the multi
racial/ethnic Sahara of that era. Not that I mention her apparent race ev en once.. y oure
pissed at the way she looks, not at any thing I ty ped. As Iv e said, y ou hav e the reading
comprehension of a 5 y ear old.
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As for the oldest Egy ptian mummification.. race was not mentioned there either; it was
just a mummy found. It seems that y ou are the one with a bug up their ass about prov ing
race, not me. And actually , on the is there any such thing as race issue, when asked, most
phy sical anthropologists said y es there is when polled a few y ears ago- theres a study out
there- and so do biologists and about 50% of geneticists. Ev en the ones that just support
clinal v ariation will tell y ou it is totally possible to figure out the popuation affinities of a
skeleton pretty accurately , and from its DNA.
BTW, Cav alli Sforza on Berbers.
Berbers are located primarily in the northern regions of Algeria and Morocco,
but somew hat to the interior, usually not far from the sea. . Berbers are
believed to have their ancestors among Capsian Mesolithics and their Neolithic
descendants, possibly w ith genetic contributions from the important Neolithic
migrations from the Near East. It is reasonable to hypothesize that the Berber
(Afro-Asiatic) language w as introduced by the Neolithic farmers
So not an Ethiopian origin then.
Y ou must be a masochist Don, Iv e nev er seen someone so keen to get his arse kicked on a
daily basis.
black Africans w ere never foreign to North Africa.
Just the coastal areas from about 1 0k ago.. Iv e nev er said otherwise y ou idiot. But then
y ouv e prov ed on multiple occasions y ou dont understand half of what y ou read.
Therefore, trying to claim that 40,000 years ago, Eurasians w ere like modern w hite
Europeans is nonsense. They w ere not. They w ere closer to their ancient African
forebears than modern Europeans.
It seems massiv ely important to y ou that this is true.. it isnt. Read some anthropology
papers or books. Asians of that era get described as proto Caucasoid, they werent ev en
remotely like modern black Africans. The first ty pically Caucasoid skull is about 30k old
from Eastern Europe. Humans had been out of Africa a long time by that point, and
although not ty pically Caucasiod, the Eurasians had roughly the same kind of crania shape
they do today , but with heav ier brow ridges, bigger faces and cheekbones. I hav e an image
of an early European from about 26k ago.. notably not African looking. And modern skin
mutations make v ery little difference to any ones skin colour ex cept northern Europeans..
Ev en v ery Southern Africans hav e a lightish golden tan skin colour, not black. Since
humans had been in Asia at least 45k prior, theres no reason to think they had any thing
other than light Asian tan skin for a v ery long time. See link for what someone without
modern skin lightening mutations looks like- Africans can reach Arabian skin tones with
no new mutations needed in just a few thousand y ears . Y ou can chuck as many tantrums
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as y ou like, but Europe was not colonised by a black group straight from Africa, all the
ev idence suggests a long time OOA before this happened. CS places the separation date
(probably in N Africa) at 1 46k, most fossil remains indicate about 1 20k ish for OOA, so
say ing that the colonists of Europe were black Africans is laughable, as they hadnt been
for tens of thousands of y ears.
Another one here. The art from that era uniformly shows straight hair. Also seen sticking
out from this ones hat. and this ones.
Dana Marniche | March 17, 2009 at 4:28 am | Reply

Why in Gods black earth would I try to make modern Berber-speakers like the whiter
Kaby les whose dna prov es they are in fact Greek and southern Europeans with the African
Tuareg and other true Berbers, whose dna shows them to hav e close affiliation to east
Africans. I think y ouv e been reading too much National Geographic. If i lied any where feel
free to email me directly , and let me know the facts. Like Iv e said prev siously the archeology
of the Kaby le region, their blood ty pes palm prints and culture links them to Greeks and not
Berbers and certainly not the Moors of any sort.

They have show n w hat earlier physical anthropologists have show n. That they w ere
closely affiliated w ith and in fact indistinguishable from the cranial and skeletons of
those of modern Ethiopians.
Hilariously wrong. Try reading Clines and clusters the Brace paperwhere he concludes
there no hint of Sub Sharan in the dy nastic Egy ptian population.
In this, our analysis simply reinforces the findings of other recent studies
(Adams, 1 967 ,1 97 7 ; Berry et al., 1 967 ; Carlson and V an Gerven, 1 97 7 , 1 97 9;
Greene, 1 966; Keita, 1 990; V an Gerven, 1 982). Al- though it w as cast in a
somew hat patronizingly sociobiologistic fashion, this w as clearly the
message of the English Egyptologist Sir E. A. Wallis Budge w hen he noted that,
although the physical and mental characteristics of the original Egyp- tians
w ere modified temporarily as a result of intermarriage w ith their conquerors, .
. . no am ount of alien blood has so far succeeded in destroying the
fundam ental characteristics, both physical and m ental, of the
dweller of the Nile m ud, i.e. the
fellgh, or tiller of the ground, who is today what he has ever been
The Predynastic of Upper Egypt and the Late Dynastic of Low er Egypt are more
closely related to each other than to any other population. As a w hole, they
show ties w ith the European Neolithic, North Africa, modern Europe, and,
more remotely, India, but not at all w ith sub-Saharan Africa,
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Thus prov ing y ou be full of crap y et again.

Dana y ou show a totall lack of familiarity with Braces and any other authors work; they v e
concluded that modern Egy ptians are essentially the same as ancient, which is why y ou
nev er see them actually quoted in any of y our stuff. And only the Southern most
predy nastic Egy ptian show up like any black population- and they come to the ones who
are more or less mix ed race- which is the conlusion y ou get with these studies for the
Badarians-mix ed race (same as modern upper Egy ptians BTW). Lower Egy ptians show up
as ty pically caucasoid people in ev ery way . BT W, m odern Egy ptians hav e m ainly Y
chrom som es specific to Africa.. how did they m agically change appearance
then?
And no, the M81 (Berber) Y chrom osom e shows absolutely no affinity to any
Ethiopian population. Its deriv ed from a migration into North Africa of a mix ed race
people dating about 24k ago, all the migrations into North Africa since that point hav e
been from the near East, and the crania are ty pically mediterranian from about 1 0k BP on
in coastal north Africa, and so is the DNA. T he Berbers do not com e from Ethiopia
bonehead, the bulk of their ancestry is Eurasian, and has been for the last 1 0k or
so,, not that Id ex pect y ou to grasp the comlpex population mov ement across
nOrthAfrica since the Pleistocene.. y ou though gy psies were African in origin for pities
sakeLMAO
Like Ive said prevsiously the archeology of the Kabyle region, their blood types palm
prints and culture links them to Greeks and not Berbers and certainly not the Moors of
any sort.
Funny how the kaby le mt DNA is ex actly the same as the specimens from North Africa
dated to 1 2k ago. Y ou are so full of crap. And no Im not emailing y ou so y ou can get my
email address.
No one that know s African history, linguistics or anthropology and the many depictions
of Moorish Arabs and Moors in early Europe w ill ever take you seriously
LMAO.. all the genetics papers and history papers Iv e ev er read desccribe ancient North
Africans as a mainly white people. Read the Cav alli Sforza books (the worlds No 1 pop
geneticist) where he describes Eurasian white north Africans as being present in North
Africa since the Caspian, and the Tuareg as relativ ely recent appearacen in NW Africa. He
includes Berbers in the Eurasian Cucasoid groups, see the diagram s here.
Berbers are located prim arily in the northern regions of Algeria and
Morocco, but som ewhat to the interior, usually not far from the sea.
. Berbers are believed to have their ancestors am ong Caspsian
Mesolithics and their Neolithic decendants, possibly with genetic
contributions from the im portant Neolithic m igrations from the
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Near East. It is reasonable to hypothesize that the Berber

(AfroAsiatic) language was introduces by the Neolithic farm ers
Funnily enpugh, an ex act m atch for the v iews in m y blog and the opposits of
y our BS.T he fact is that y ou cant quote any scientific to study that say s what
y ou want.. Y ET AGAIN Please read the book y ou really need to.
Dana Marniche | March 17, 2009 at 4:40 am | Reply

Y ou hav e distorted ev ery thing that y ou hav e ev er read. And in fact the homogeneity of the
skeletons of ancient Egy ptians stopped dead at the Ptolemaic period. We know that from the
studies of Brace, Armelagos, Batrawi and others who hav e done studies on the genetic related
traits of crania and dentition along the Nile. They hav e shown what earlier phy sical
anthropologists hav e shown. That they were closely affiliated with and in fact
indistinguishable from the cranial and skeletons of those of modern Ethiopians. The same can
be said of ancient Saharans, Arabians and most of the Neolithic and Mesolithic North
Africans.
No one that knows African history , linguistics or anthropology and the many depictions of
Moorish Arabs and Moors in early Europe will ev er take y ou seriously because y ou hav e
ev en misinterpreted the genetic assertions of European scholars. African history isnt about
nationalisms whether Zionist, Euromediterranean, African or European. Y our name calling
will also not change the bones of Neolithic Europeans and most ancient North Africans, nor
the fact that the early megalithic site found in of Nabta Play a in Sudan was the prototy pe of
the megalithic sites found in the British Isles Nabta Play a dating from ov er a thousand
y ears earlier.

Dear Mathilda37 :
Y ou hav e the patience of a saint. Y ou deal so effectiv ely with these brainless dopes.
It is truly amazing how insecure some people of color can be. Afrocentrism is just another
word for the grossly ignorant ty pes try ing to re-write history and the findings of phy sical
anthropology and genetics.

Y ou have the patience of a saint
That will come as news to Mr Mathilda.
Im going to hav e ban Dana and Don It just makes me look nasty when I shred them like
idiots. They do come out with some world class bullshit.
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Dana, Don, while this has been am using..
Dana.. until y ou manage to pull a piece of a respectable published work that supports
y our POV (good luck w ith that) out of y our ass something y ouv e failed to do aby smally
despite a dozen opportunites y ou wont be getting any more comments on here. All y ou
ev er do is prov e to the world how little y ou know (African gypsies!!!), and Im getting a bit
tired of pointing out how ignorant y ou are. Should y ou manage to find something noninane and supported, itll be allowed through I w ont hold my breath though
Don, y our lack of reading comprehension would put y ou in the retarded group in a
Downss sy ndrome school, and y our knowledge of anthropology appears to riv al Danas
for the most ignorant title. The same thing for Dana goes for y ou.. until y ou mange to post
something with published work to back it up, y ou can naff of. Iv e giv en y ou plenty of
opportunities to say something intelligent, and y ouv e failed ev ery time.
Doesnt the fact that y ou cant find any published m aterial but I can find
plenty , at least giv e y ou pause for thought?

TOUCHE, Mathi:-)))

BTW, I was born in Alto-Minho Portugal, once part of Gallaecia. I am an original Celt on both
sides. I traced my roots back a thousand y ears. All my R1 b markers on my fathers side
match the dominant DNA trend found in southern and western Ireland and there are some
matches with the Welsh on my mothers side. Since y ou are Welsh, I consider y ou a tribal
kin:-))
mathias | March 18, 2009 at 6:41 pm | Reply

see it Dana !!
MOROCCAN MOORISH MEN !
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Andy Jones | March 18, 2009 at 7:41 pm | Reply

So let me get this straight, the first Berbers in the coasts of North Africa did not speak
Berber and it was introduced to them by Neolithic farmers? Then why are y ou calling them
Berbers then? Seems to me that the first Berbers would be the people who first spoke the
Berber languages. That is why using Calli Sforza, who is a geneticist, to speak on the history of
a language doesnt make any sense to me.
And, if y ou read the book y ou referenced, he makes v ery further claims about the Berber
languages which do not make sense. He claims the Tuaregs are not Berbers but they speak an
ancient form of the Berber language. But again, if Berber identity is based around language,
not genetics, then this doesnt make any sense. So because the Tuaregs are genetically closer
to the Beja and East Africans, Mr Sforza, who seems to want to identify Berbers based on
genetics, omits Tuaregs from being Berber, simply because he uses genes as the basis of
Berber identification, when in reality it is based on language and culture. Therefore, the
v iews of Mr. Sforza are skewed and do not really address the identity of Berbers as a linguistic
group, as opposed to try ing to identify Berbers based on genetics.
The funny point is that nobody , not from this site, nor Mr Sforza, would hav e the courage to
tell Tuaregs to their faces that they are not real Berbers. This is simply the kind of nonsense
stuff written for people outside of Africa who hav e no knowledge of or contact with the
Africans in question, which is precisely why such nonsense should be questioned.
So the fundamental question is whether we are talking Berber as a language or Berber as a
gene?
Justin | March 18, 2009 at 9:10 pm | Reply

I was born in Alto-Minhoo Portugal too & Im a real CeltiBerber. Markers in my family (both
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sides) :
y DNA: R1 b1 b2/E1 b1 b1 b2
mtDNA: H/H1
Long liv e the v ariety !
mathilda37 | March 19, 2009 at 9:44 am | Reply

So let me get this straight, the first Berbers in the coasts of North Africa did not speak
Berber and it was introduced to them by Neolithic farmers?
Quite possibly . No language family dates to ov er 1 0k old , and the spread of Afro Asiatic
languages matches the dates of the Neolithic ex pansion.And Berber is a pretty recent name
fo these people, and not one they use themselv es.
Tuaregs are thought to hav e arriv ed a few thousand y ears ago and adopted Berber languages.
Genetically they dont show much time in NW Africa. They re real berbers if y ou take being
being Berber as cultural.
THAQVAYLITH | March 19, 2009 at 1:55 pm | Reply

Faces of Morrocco ? Are y ou kidding ? These are not morrocan !
The girl in bottom left is Kaby l. Its berber algerian. This picture was taken while the black
spring in 2001 , in Kaby lia.
No way between her and the makhzen morrocco. Amazigh, berber, algerian, but NOT
morrocan.
And im sure there is other faces that are from algeria.
Be serious

Faces of Morrocco ? Are you kidding ? These are not morrocan !
The girl in bottom left is Kabyl. Its berber algerian. This picture w as taken w hile the
black spring in 2001 , in Kabylia
Where did I say faces of Morocco?
THAQVAYLITH | March 19, 2009 at 2:01 pm | Reply

As an ex emple, the third picture from bottom left.
The lady is wearing jewels ty pically from kaby l amazigh (algeria)
As an amazir of algeria, im really disappointed to see my culture is being mix ed up with
Morroco, still i hav e no link with this state.
These are amazir ou amaziGH faces (amazigh of algeria and morrocco are brothers), BUT NOT
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morrocan faces.

All of North Africa is essentially non Arab , and theres not much genetic difference
between the two. This page isnt about Morocco, its about North Africans ion general
really .

Hi Mathilda:
BTW, my latest post was meant for y ou. Sorry , I forgot to put y our name on it.

Justin:
My understanding is that there are Berber markers as far north as Norway Amazing!
mathias | March 19, 2009 at 7:51 pm | Reply

Moroccan faces !!!
hot hot beauty !!! I
Justin | March 19, 2009 at 7:56 pm | Reply

ANTHROPOLOGIQUE :
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Y oure right & my closest E1 b1 b1 b2 genetic matches are from USA (with British roots),
Scotland & England!
Amazigh indeed.

Mathilda:
Quite possibly . No language family dates to ov er 1 0k old , and the spread of Afro Asiatic
languages matches the dates of the Neolithic ex pansion.And Berber is a pretty recent name
fo these people, and not one they use themselv es.
So how old is the Berber language then and where is the oldest ev idence for it? I do not think
the origin of Berber languages is the same as the original spread of Afro Asiatic, that would
make the Berber language ov er 1 0,000 y ears old. And it still seems odd to label someone
based on identity that they dont use, theoretically defined by a language that did not ex ist,
and on top of that using genetics and not linguistic studies and history . At best it is
misleading and at worst it is dishonest.

I did a little reading into Berber langauges.. they seem to hav e seperated from Egy ptian
and Semtiic in the Neolithic, but the last spread from a common dialect was less than
about 2k ago, as there are lots of words for camels and they dont'; appear till around the
birth of Christ in NW Africa. The Guanches spoke a Berber related language, they left for
the Canaries about 3k ago.
And it still seems odd to label someone based on identity that they dont use,
theoretically defined by a language that did not exist, and on top of that using genetics
and not linguistic studies and history.
The difference between ethnicity and ancestry . Tuareg are ethnically Berber, but
ancestrallly they hav e an origin in the South of Egy pt/North of Sudan. Before Arabic
berber was the common language of North Africa, its probably why they adopted it.
THAQVAYLITH | March 20, 2009 at 12:21 am | Reply

Lol.
Thank y ou Mathilda
Y ou do not say faces of Morocco right now

Nev er let it be said I wont take criticism
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Am used:
Dana sweety ; I dont take comments off, they dont get posted at all unless I permit it. Y et
again another abusiv e rant ( disallowed) where y ou fail to pull any ev idence out of y our arse.
I called y ou a moron before for a v ery good reason (African gy psies!). Please refer to the
prior tirades of y ours where y ou insist on calling me a liar as an ice breaker before y ou act
outraged for hav ing y our rather epic ignorance pointed out to y ou
As for the coins of Hannibal.. They are North African coins representing a north Africanwhat ex actly was y our point? So far all the artwork from the north coast relentlessly shows
brunette white people from the neolithic on- including the By zantine art just prior to the
Islamic inv asion.
To date y ou hav ent supplied one image from ancient North Africa showing a black African or
any quoted publication to support y ou- despite repeated requests. All y ou do is spout quite
litigious abuse.
Since I hav e posted direct quotes from a number of anthropologists and geneticists who
directly disgree in their own words with y our beliefs, Id like to point out to the world in
general that Im not making this up; Im just quoting.
As I hav e said before..find images or actual publications to back y ou up. Y our deranged
ramblings are not comment-worthy .

Mathilda:
I did a little reading into Berber langauges.. they seem to hav e seperated from Egy ptian and
Semtiic in the Neolithic, but the last spread from a common dialect was less than about 2k
ago, as there are lots of words for camels and they dont; appear till around the birth of Christ
in NW Africa. The Guanches spoke a Berber related language, they left for the Canaries about
3k ago.
Based on that reply and other information from elsewhere it would seem that the Berber
language is about 3-4 thousand y ears old. That would mean that the spread of U6, whether
we call them Eurasian or otherwise, has nothing to do with the origin of Berber as a
language. The origin of U6 predates the dev elopment of Afro Asiatic by tens of thousands of
y ears. Which again why I disagree with try ing to equate Berber as a language or culture with
a genetic lineage. The two are totally different things. All Berber populations hav e v ary ing
genetic lineages, some more Eurasian and some more African, but none of that say s
any thing about where and or how a particular language originated. Most of the studies
prov ided treat the Eurasian lineages as a group including U,K,N and J, with U6 being a
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relativ ely small percentage of all lineages in most Berber speaking populations. Considering
that all of these lineages reflect a complex history of migration and interaction, it is
impossible to tie any of them to the spread of Berber as a language, especially something like
U6 which is 45 -50 thousand y ears old and definitely out of the question as a marker for the
origin of Berber languages. Also, the 3-4ky age of Berber languages also makes them much
y ounger than the spread of the Neolithic in North Africa, which took place between 1 0ky and
6ky .

Last time I checked Berber was worked out to hav e separated fom proto Ery thraic (proto
Berber,/Egy ptian/Semitic) about 8k or so by glottochronology - its a neolithic language.
The 2k date is the last node, or last dialect that came to dominate it. The Guanches would
hav e left before that. Before that they d hav e spoken an older Berber dialect, not a non
Berber language.
Generally when I use Berber I mean indigenous North Africans in general. I know a lot
hav e Arab ethnic identity , but their DNA say s other wise- they are mainly nativ e north
africans under the skin. IAnd nev er associated the spread of U6 to Berber languages (way
too old).
From what I can gather, the DNA traces of language ex pansions can be pretty ghostly .
Some Eurasian population migrated into Africa into the neolithic bringing farming. The
Berber languages (IMO and a few others) seems to date to that. Who is a modern ethnic
Berber has a lot more to do with whos ancestors dint Arabize. The North Africans who
didnt got called Barbarians (Berbers). The Tuareg are Berbers ethnically but not
genetically North African.

Y es, proto Ery thraic is mentioned by Authors such as Blench. Howev er, he puts the
homeland of such a split between Berber, Egy ptian and Semitic at somewhere between the
Nile and Red Sea. He also puts the original ex tent of Berber Languages as being from the
Upper Nile clear across to Mauritania and Niger. And giv en that he feels that AfroAsiatic
spread North from Ethiopia, he considers AfroAsiatic primarily an African language. Again,
giv en that AfroAsiatic and Berber are languages and because the region where the Tuareg
lineages originate is also in the same area where some linguists postulate that Berber
originally split from Egy ptian and Semitic, it does not make sense to make a distinction for
the Tuareg as less Berber than others based on genetic lineage, when the history and spread
of a language does not necessarily correlate with lineage and to this point nobody has clearly
defined any genetic lineage that indicates the origin and spread of a single language. While it
is definitely true that some Berbers hav e a large degree of Eurasian ancestry , it is not
necessarily true that Eurasian ancestry defines or indicates the origin of or defines what is
considered Berber, which is a language and culture not a genoty pe.
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Blenchs book is here:

http://books.google.com/books?
id=esFy 3Po57 A8C&pg=PA1 54&lpg=PA1 54&dq=proto+Ery thraic&source=bl&ots=6eNT2GX
Wv y &sig=ZPkQb7 3x 1 UUkpHXBdOa0z1 tQPdg&hl=en&ei=I4fGSeK_BdGEtwep9eHHCg&sa=X&
oi=book_result&resnum=8&ct=result

Iv e read a fair bit of Blench, but thanks for the link. Ev ery tree Iv e seen Iv e seen for AA
languages has Berber, Semitic and Egy ptian as a little group together. Iv e seen two
linguists put AA languages as Asiatic in origin. I hav e to say the population mov ements,
dates and DNA seem to agree with them more which is probably why Cav alli Sforza takes
the same v iew I do. As Iv e said on this blog; the calibrated ages for AA language ex actly
match an origin in Asia spreading into N Africa. Not to mention that Militarev managed to
reconstruct plenty of words for goats and sheep, which just dont turn in up Africa until
the Neolithic (they are only wild in Asia) and others that suggest a neolithic
farming/pastoralist era instead of a hunter gatherer time frame.
The Tuareg arriv e in North Africa until long after the date for proto Berbers seperation
(about 3,000 y ears after), so attaching it to them wont work. They also dont hav e any
relationship to Egy ptians and theres absolutely no way to ex plain how they could hav e a
close relationship to Asaitic Semitic. T here is no way Sem itic is African in origin.
Theres no mov ement out of Africa within a relav ant time frame- culturally or genetically .
The main reason for me pointing out that Tuareg are not the real Berbers here is that I get
endlessly spammed by Afrocentrists desperate to believ e the Moors and Egy ptians were
black, so they insist All the other Berber tribes are the descendants of slav es (see Dana
abov e) and that Tuareg are the only real Bebers. Im just pointing out that their
appearance in North Africa is pretty recent (within historical eras) not ancient proto
Berber eras. They had nothing to do with the Berber langauges spread, they still show
strong cultural similarities to the East African Beja. The Beja speak Cushitic.. if the Tuareg
would hav e brought any language with them it would hav e deriv ed from Cushitic. Berber
doesnt hav e any close relationship to Cushitic.

Actually I wasnt referring to Afrocentrics at all. I was talking about Blench. Blench claims an
African origin for Afro Asiatic, as does Ehret. Y es, other people claim that AA originates in
Asia but in all reality they arent talking about Asia as opposed to the Lev ant. And, in
terms of Blench any way , the grouping of Egy ptian, Berber and Semitic are grouped as African
by Blench. And he openly admits that there is a debate among linguists about whether AA
or Semitic originates in Asia or Africa, but none of these people are Afrocentrics in any sense
of the term. Whatev er Afrocentrics say has nothing to do with this as this is purely a
linguistic and cultural issue. Y es, genes are part of the puzzle, but genes do not tell the whole
story .
As for the Tuaregs, y es they are related to the Beja and Blench does speak on the differences
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and relationship to Berber. But the point I am making is that at least Blench and may be ev en
Ehret put the origin of Berber in the Nile V alley . The debate ov er the origins of Afro Asiatic
aside, the point is that Berber is not as old as Afro Asiatic, neither is Egy ptian and neither is
Semitic. Therefore, when I speak of Berber I want to keep focus on the dates of when Berber
as a language originated and from where. Which is why I refer to the linguists, like Blench and
others. And some definitely put the origin and or split of Berber into the area of the Nile
V alley . And I hav e seen no linguist who posits that proto-Berber originates 7 ,000 y ears ago.
If y ou mean the branching of Northern Semitic from proto-Ery thraic, then again Blench puts
that squarely into the Nile V alley and Red Sea areas. But this branch was not Berber it was a
common ancestor of Egy ptian and Berber and Semitic that split off 7 ,000 y ears ago
according to Blench. That is not Berber.
The Tuareg are partially descended from peoples in East Africa 3,000 y ears ago, but they are
also descended from the inhabitants of the Sahara in the Neolithic as well. The 3,000 y ear
date for the Tuareg is simply a reference to a specific cultural/linguistic package. There
hav e been multiple mov ements of Africans from the Sahara to the Nile and back ov er the last
50,000 y ears and that is simply the latest of a long series of such mov ements.
Any way , whether or not y ou believ e in the Eurasian origin origin of AfroAsiatic or Semitic,
that is fine. The point I am making is that all scholars do not agree on this v iew and the debate
that goes on about it is not simply an Afrocentric debate. There are many reasons for
believ ing one way or another and it isnt for y ou to pretend that because y ou want to believ e
one group of linguists/anthropologists, that this makes the v iews of other
linguists/anthropologists any less v alid.
Here is another reference that puts proto Berber as breaking off from proto-Ery thraic about
6,000 y ears ago. Note, this author puts proto-Ery thraic languages squarely in the Nile
V alley and Ethiopian highlands and not Eurasia. This also shows the tree, with Cushitic
being an earlier branch off of proto-North Ery thraic. This book also has an ex tensiv e
discussion on the relationships of loan words for cattle and sheep between the v arious
families of languages in this tree.
http://books.google.com/books?
id=C7 XhcY oFx aQC&pg=PA291 &lpg=PA291 &dq=proto+Ery thraic&source=bl&ots=eV FwaX
n6Bo&sig=CRIJ6zqpe47 Lx mEk4E09NiLfXpk&hl=en&ei=I4fGSeK_BdGEtwep9eHHCg&sa=X&
oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA291 ,M1
The point being that some things stated here are an ov ersimplification of the complex ity of
linguistic studies and genetics.

The berbers dont appear to hav e changed much in the last 1 2000 y ears.
Ms Mathilda it is controv ersial,y ou wrote to me that most of arabs speaking in the maghreb
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are in facts berbers of origin. Suppose,it is true thats mean they embrace fully the culture of
the inv aders specially their new faith( Islam) without compulsion and by consequent full
intermariage(e.g : my father is Arab ,my mother is kaby le, My niece is Arab,her husband is
kaby le). As a fact,during all this time from the 8th to 21 th century ,y ou think nothing changed
?
Just to remind y ou,the amazigh language of today has 35% of arabic lex ica. I lov e listen
to Kaby le music ev en though I do not speak berber .It is a part of my culture and I enjoy
because of this link.
To the riv als of opnion: we all belong to one humans ancestor known as Adam peace upon
Him through Noah and sons: Sam,Ham

A Y chr study showed North African Arabs and Berbers to hav e the same y chromosome
make up.. mainly North West African. the population were conv erted not massacred, as
Islam requires.
malika | April 1, 2009 at 6:50 pm | Reply

Arabic in the African north are not many they are rather div ided into family , because to be
clear amazighs cut their relation with the east and its authority for the y ear 7 89 Christian
The Arabic historians hide us a lot of information I do not know why !!!!! Especially on beni
hilal small tribe which inv aded a part of ly bie and Tunis This tribe was sent by king fatimide of
Egy pt to take rev enge for tribes Tunis which left the shite for the sunite
Then where is the problem? Arabic say that these tribes steered on all the north of Africa
!!!!hehehe And that they are many is they who arabized amazigh ( berbers ) The Arabic
historians rev eal only this part(party ) of the history (story ) and the most interesting hiding
place y es y es The lies of Arabic The reality it is because the tribes of Tunis hav e were
disturbed by the beni hilal which steal them plunder are in hiding to them And they asked for
Abu Y usuf Y aqub al-Mansur s help(assistant) Berber king of Morocco Algiers and Moslem
Spain,Which(Who) has terminated this tribe of beni hilal in the couppant in small groups in
ev ery region of the African north checked(controlled) by big tribes Berber as zennate for
the arabisation it is Berbers which chose to be arabis and ev ery berber dy nasty encouraged
the arabisation as almorav ide and zennete
For the Berber language it is v ery difficult to speak about this language(tongue)
I am Berber and I know v ery well my language(tongue) and I can giv e my point of v iew, I
remember my self my first ones lessons of English I was surprised on the resemblance
between some word berbers and English ev en if they hav e no same sense(direction) !!!
And also for the qopt language(tongue) of egy pte the former(ancient) language(tongue) of
the Pharaohs
I also noticed that there are two words in English the same sense(direction) bite hav e the
same meaning in berber for biitte to us y ou and y es of it berbers it is y ah
This language(tongue) deserv es to be studied
thank y ou mathildas for y our research and from articles and y our effort
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THANK Y OU MATHILDAS for y our searches it is v ery rich ,,,I completely agree with y ou, I
am Berber and I can make y ou useful ,,The analy ses of is v ery correct without any faults the
North African are alway s berbers but arabized they do not know him(it) ,,I think that there is
a fault, it is can be the Arabic historians treated(manipulated) our history (story ) in 1 9th
century ,,,Because a lot of people ignores some ev ent since the Islamic conquest
In the first place the Arabic inv aders were helped by Egy ptians and Berber tribes Islamized
without war
Then the authority of Arabic did not last v ery for a long time, because Berber Islamized by
strength were rev olutionized sev eral times They freed(cleared) Arabic especially in regions
of morroco and Algers and the South of Tunis and the ly bie Because the Berber were not in
agreement with Arabic which ex ceeded the limits
The Islamic part of the dy nasties which throned on North of Africa are Berber the majority
army berbers or African blacks And the Arabic dy nasties which throned are of single one
origin ali ibn taleb cousin of prophet Them big father came only to the African North with no
tribe
The tribes which entered the African North are not Numerous (many ) scattered thanks to
kings Moslem berbers thus these Arabic do not hav e any point to the African North it is just
the arabization which ex ists ;;The legend of the tribe beni hilal is only a big lie ;;Because beni
hilal came only to steal the berbers of Tunis sent by the fatimides of Egy pt but the berbers of
Tunis asked help the king y aqoub al mansour King of morocco, Algers and andolucia spanish
And thanks to him this tribe was scattered on all the North of Africa ind mountains Thus
she(it) did not arabize berbers, but it is the berbers which chose of spoken Arabic for
centuries at present their descendant consider Arabic
I speak v ery well about the berber and I find that it is a mix ture enters language(tongue)
simites and the europiennes languages(tongues)
I think that afrocentric did not read the history (story ) because Ethiopia and Somalia is
countries shared by berbers and Egy ptians that is why they a culture different from the
others African black and in more ethupiens are more clearly they are not completely black

I add that there are Berber tribes in the mountains which(who) are mix ed with the blacks the
Tuareg tribes and the Arabic families y amanite also slav es Somalian or ethoupiens because
tribes zennete berbers frequented the South of Egy pt By buy ing of the slav es or the others
the goods
For me my family alway s keeps(guards) line(feature) of our former(ancient) parends big we
are half fair and half white brown and not black looks at this v ideo of y outube
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face of berbers north africa
Alger( music)kaby le
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I only mean that the current berbers is crossed with the other peoples of desert
Moroccan | April 3, 2009 at 4:57 pm | Reply

Malika, y oure right, some Berber tribes named Kotama and Zenata of the Middle Ages had
inv aded Egy pt to the Sudan, other Berber tribes inv aded Mali and Ghana from Moorish
empire , all the tribes of the Sahara are not directly Tuaregs, Egy pt is ruled by Ait Ziri family
of Berber origin from Tunisia, this noble family found melted the Fatimid empire in the
Middle East by kotama tribes of Morocco and Algeria, Cairo capital of Egy pt, founded by the
Berber of Morocco and Algeria was populated mainly by those BERBERS come from the
northern of Africa ,until now ! sev eral Egy ptians bear the names of Moroccan origin, and y ou
can send anthropologists of Egy ptian history about the ev ents of Middle Ages! for y our
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information the Fatimid empire is the first Shiite empire in which the new inv aders hav e
committed war crimes against the Sunnis of Egy pt and that sev eral Berber tribes decided to
migrated to the south when they fade independent kingdoms in sudan!
Egy ptian historians ev en argue that the kotama tribes are continued their migrations to
Mesopotamia! to all plz consult history of fatimid empire , its the first berber empire in
middle east from mediev al ages
thx to all

I hav e images of the army al mowahade the Berber dy nasty of Moroccan origin of the
mountain atlass ..But comment are in Arabic
wawwww My God these photos are v ery former(ancient) make by the Berber dy nasty
mowahade ev en and not pulled(fired) by the imagination
Y ou go to notice the presence of a minority black
And berbrs is alway s white and Fair-haired man(Blond)
http://www.ssislam.com/Tareek%20islam/aL%20Dwal%20%201 7 .htm
The first image shows roy al messengers chretien alfonso
The second image shows the v ictory of the army berber on the chretien armed in the battle of
saint sebastien degomez
Three images which follow show the clothes of the soldiers berbers
I use the translation English French to ex plain to y ou hehehehehe
I think mathilda that these images will be y ou useful
mathilda37 | April 8, 2009 at 11:35 am | Reply

Thank y ou Malika.
dalouh | April 9, 2009 at 12:51 am | Reply

thank y ou mathilda for all y our effort.
to djillali
there is no such thing as an arab race in north africa .
our DNA doesnt lie.
politicians and the merchants of religion do lie without shame !
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the so called arab ancestry is pure fantasy !

it was made up by people looking for power and prestige.
any way , why not take some of y our precious time and read this PDF document.
GENETIC STRUCTURE OF ALGERIAN POPULATIONS
http://www2.ku.edu/~lba/Publications/PDF%20files/2006/Algeria1 .pdf
regards

a v ideo trailer about the city of al-hoceima / alhuceimas in the rif region, the rifians look
ty pically mediterranean.
ANTHROPOLOGIQUE | April 13, 2009 at 9:44 pm | Reply

Arabs are Southeastern Mediterranean and Middle Eastern, period.
Any one from North Africa with any thing other than full Berber DNA does not genetically
correlate with the nativ e peoples of the region.
ANTHROPOLOGIQUE | April 14, 2009 at 4:09 pm | Reply

Dalough:
I dont v iew many of the Rif people in y our last post as being v ery Mediterranean (certainly
not European Mediterranean). More like far North Eastern African / Middle Eastern.
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Frenchy | April 14, 2009 at 8:40 pm | Reply

In this recent autosomal study (Worldwide Human Relationships Inferred from GenomeWide Patterns of V ariation, Jun Z. Li, 2008) the Mozabites who are a saharan population
from the algerian Mzab were analy sed.
What is v ery interesting is that these Mozabites who are considered (apart from the tuaregs)
to hav e the most Black african ancestry show in fact only around 1 2% Black ancestry !
http://1 .bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7 688v oT0/R7 9MXy HURCI/AAAAAAAAAFg/8MeKImXcV 3
4/s1 600-h/structurescience.jpg
mathilda37 | April 22, 2009 at 12:14 pm | Reply

thanks for the stuff Frenchy ,

and here is a picture of Zidane the most famous (french) berber in the world
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Zinedine_Zidane_2008.jpg
other v ery famous french of berber ancestry are :
Isabelle Adjani : http://www.prland.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/01 /isabelle-adjani.jpg
Dany Boon :
http://www.adgoog.com/blog/photo/34067 a-dany _boon_boudera_la_ceremonie.jpg
Alain Bachung
Karim Benzema
and many others.
And as we can see they hav e nothing to do with sub-saharan Africans or ev en Arabs

..I forgot the most famous Edith Piaf whose grand mother was a algerian Berber
http://corinefertiti.blog.lemonde.fr/files/2008/02/piaf-eternelle.1 20397 551 2.jpg

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ANTHROPOLOGIQUE
who defines how a mediterranean ty pe should look like ?
let me remind y ou,that the mediterranean coast of north africa is almost equal in size to the
european one .
so, y ou shouldnt dictate how a mediterranian ty pe should look like ! (euro-centric ? )
besides, I dont know what part of the middle east y ou are try ing to compare to (Iran,
lebanon, sy ria ,turkiy e, arabia ?
regards
djilali djaber | April 19, 2009 at 8:05 pm | Reply

Mr Delouh
Sorry It takes me time to answer y ou,I was in Algeria for a while because my kaby le mother
passed away ,God bless her. To start,let y ou know that Arab is not a race but an ethnie(there
is just four ex istents races a sav oir White,Black,Y ellow and Red ),I belong to the first without
doubt. But based on y our study of 4ooo algerian recruits it is insignificant to show an origin
because where I liv ed is a city of 1 00.000 people and nobody heared about a genetic testing
ev en in a big city as ORAN. Not to mention just my self,I knew a lot of people who knew their
arabic descent just by their family name as les Aoufi, Talha ,Zoubir To end my comment,
after the independence of Algeria it is y our cousins Chaoui who gov erned my country from
1 962 to 2000,ask them why they lied about the history and did not talk about it.They ignore
it
I am not waiting to tell me from where I come, I already knew ,my origin is from Irak
specialy Arab Djabour who fighted hard the inv asion of the us army . Be a berber or an Arab
does mean nothing to me. I leav e for y ou my place because my country now is CANADA ,
Iam proud to be part of a multiculturale society .
Who comes first to life, the Hen or the egg is a topic of a third world.
Ponto | April 20, 2009 at 10:15 am | Reply

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Don Blake reckons there is no race or races because
Anthropologists dont believ e in the ex istence of race. Really ! Last time I was at univ ersity
study ing sciences, my speciality is biological sciences, Anthropology was in the Humanities
faculty and hardly any units of Anthropology contained much science bey ond high school
lev el. Show me an Anthropologist with a science degree. They hardly ex ist. Coon was no
scientist. John R Baker was a scientist who wrote the book called Race but he was not an
Anthropologist. In other words, the say ings of Anthropologists on race is not worth a plug
nickle.
Haplogroups like R1 b or J1 or R1 a1 are essentially Eurasian in origin which means non sub
Saharan African and where Africans hav e those haplogroups it is due to admix ing with
Eurasians. That is the result of genetic studies by scientists trained in genetics and molecular
biology not anthropologist trained in cultures or linguistics or some other pseudo science
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like study .
The comments

Mr Faux Franchy
Why y ou are so proud?
Subsaharian people they do hav e their famous footballeur the maestro PELE (Edson Arants
DO Naciemiento) and Mr Obama(powerful human on earth) ,Mohamed Ali Berber means
North africa.
If y ou are an endemic pure berber y ou should not leav e y our ecosy stem to became a ton
tour inv ader (like the Arabs) for french people and Mr le Pen .and racaille for Sarkozy
Miss Mathilda Franchy comments are arrogants env ers others and they not supposed to be
posted .His approach does not seem to be of somebody educated and intelligent .
Augustine | April 24, 2009 at 8:15 pm | Reply

Mr Obama, ev en if he is considered as Black is howev er not genetically Sub-saharian as
about 50% of his genes are european A huge difference
proudkabyle | April 25, 2009 at 8:42 am | Reply

Mr Djaber, the iraqui arab from algeria who liv es now in canada,
Please, do not pollute this v ery serious site with y our bullshit. Mathilda does not deserv e
this.
And, please again try to improv e y our english, it is a pity for someone liv ing in such a
country as canada.
proudkabyle | April 25, 2009 at 8:56 am | Reply

Why do not y ou come back to Iraq, y our original homeland?
ANTHROPOLOGIQUE | April 28, 2009 at 2:36 am | Reply

Pure Berbers are non-Arab and, of course,the original North Africans. Nativ e origin Berbers
genetically correlate much more with Western Europeans. Today , the majority of so-called
Berbers are essentially a mix ture of Arab and negro. Such people are only Berber in
culture. True autochthonous Berbers are a fairly small minority and found essentially in the
higher mountain ranges of Morocco and Algeria.

To Augustine:
Why to not call things by their names
I am too, comes from a mix ture marriage:Father arab and mother kaby le. But because of my
look as an Arab ev en my maternal side family called me Arby (arab) .
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Mr Obama looks Black, He considers himself Black. His mothers genetic materiel are
recessiv e not dominant.He does not look ev en moiety .
Mr proudkaby le ,as Ms Mathilda said ,the origin
of berbers is from the near east , y ou too ,y ou could hav e y our descents from Mesopotamia
(Irak) like me.
Lets go back together
Hav e a look at this:http://panoramio.com/photo/1 51 35048
tzopilotl | May 5, 2009 at 12:36 am | Reply

arab, arabaitan(OHG)/arbeit(ger)=work,
hmmm, a(r)ab/ (tl)ap/ba=tlapa(N)=land=
tlalli(N)/pa(N)=paint,
flame=tlatla(N)/pa(N)=paint.
(a)rab/rabotat(russ)=a(r)beit=work.
arabs are tlapas, paintballers, hunters,
they come from the race of aplu(Etruscan)=
apollo, arts and apples and pomes/apollome/
plums, they use tlapa/tla(m)pa/lamps
alladin. they are abel(bible), they are not
cain/in ca(N)=the being, thinking reed
people/tlaca(N)=body /caa=cane=acatl(N),
not fishers, and not body s/tlaca tlatlaca
tlacame. how is this possible? we are
all motla(N)/mo(r)tla/mortal, but the arabs
believ e they are water/atl, altia, alaua,
allah. ojal(sp)=if allah wishes, and tlapa,
aplu, apollo, the sun. they may hav e taken
sun worship from the egy ptians? where?
their calendar is the moon, so they were
once run by women as we all should be today .
ah, but they hav e the horse, definitely
they are tlapa/gobekli spawn, grainers,
desert khazars, zatal huy uk lupanares,
bull people, ocelot people,
airy ana(av estan)=ailia(N)=ally /-y ana=
y ani(N)=pilgrim(nomad=noma/nomatka(N/adv )=still, the same, alway s, spontaneous).
so, pilgrims, y ani=llano(sp)=ex panse, plain,
prairie/(pr)airie/airy ana=nomads who work
for others, alway s the same, spontaneous.
how can one hope to change a people like that?
wandering warriors of the moon in lov e with
water altars, air/ailia(N)=working for others
nev er themslev es, and fire paint,
who believ e they hav e no bodies and are
apples on the heav en tree ready to fall,
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upwards?
tzopilotl | May 20, 2009 at 1:28 am | Reply

berber/ b/v /uel/rb/v /uel/r(letra)=
iueliiueli(N)=powerfulpowerful/iv ery iv ery (letra)=iv ory iv ory , hmmmm, they are neander
blond, red, dark brown.
spanish racism is
clear sign they are related ibero/berobero/
v erov ero/iueli iueli, y es, from there.
they call themselv es, maliki/
malhuia quiahuitl(N)=to honor the tree/ki,
and, the sephardics=toshav im=tox aua(N/v erb)=toss out(ballast),shower.
the -im ending is found in elohim/
(oc)elome(N/pl)=birthing cav e animal of
tlatlatzolteotl, iueli/iv ory statue 35k bc
just found(ny times).
the isles, ceuta/ceuhtiuh(N)=decline, switch off/ceuhy an(N)=where one rests/
ceui(N)=to become cold/cetl(N)=ice.
mellila/mlilt(arab)/melelti, meletiani(N)=
repented, turbulent, fm, elleloa(N)=
hand out, cause pain, fm, elli(N)=liv er, chest,
stomach=(b)elly (E).
carlos lascoutx | June 1, 2009 at 1:57 am | Reply

hmmm, berbers are from iberia, they re linguistically connected: iberia/berber.
let me get a berber glossary . tks
carlos lascoutx | June 1, 2009 at 3:10 pm | Reply

berberi(gk)=nacre, mother of pearl, hmmm,
wonder if they re try ing to say iv ory /iv ery /
iueli(N)=powerful, the bear word/uel/v er/ber,
which referred to the mastodon during the
grav ettian? quite a shot in the dark.
berberion(gk)=shabby garment(raghead).
i definitely dont accept the facile, barbar(russ)/
ualual(N)/warwar ety mology . confusion rains.
ah, their euro is mtDNA, dated 50k bc,
when europe in bear/deer culture, then they
go to caucasus 30k, then noma, nomatka(N)=
spontaneous, the same/nomad to n.afrika.
their name for themselv es, mazy es from
mazigh, son of canon(from ham/deer is more
like it, my azo/meat in russian), why , its
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the word mazatl, day 7 booktunes. could

it be that old, from 50k bc. stranger things
hav e happened, but this is near the top.
the egy ptians called them, meshwesh,
berber v ersion, mashwsh=mazatl(7 ).
7 =the food/sustenance number and
may hav e surv iv ed from berber euro/
mtDNA. hmmm, more words:
tefetuth(bb)=butterfly /tepetototl(N)=
mountain/tepeptl tototl/bird, hmmm,
that ones from the caucasus, but,the altai
has more butterfly s than any body .
tilemte(bb)=food, looks like, tilinia(N)=
stretch the bow, with tetl(N)=stone tacked
to it, one way of getting food. tlinqui is
a weav ing word later.
asif(bb)=riv er, cipactli(N/day 1 ,souls),
the turkish for dunes=eksibe=ec(atl)s/cip/be
(letra)=ecatl cipactli(N)=wind dragon/riv er.
adu/wadu(bb)=wind(but the word, water/atl),
the wind brings water. the bbs not ex actly
first in line for language, which is the reason
for their arab appelation of barbaros(gk),
applied to their tongue).
amghar(bb)=leader, am(a)ca/ghar(letra)=
amaca(N)=watergiv er=atl maca.
ils(bb)=tongue, (t)il(inqui)(letra)=
tilinqui(N)/lincua(Lat)/lengua(sp).
weav ing word.
tarbat(bb)=girl, aha, t/tla(r)p/ba(ca)tl(letra)=
tlapacatl(N)=to wash clothes, hmmm,
semitic ov ertones, tlapacca-(N)=the prefix
for the patience, resignation words, the
rebecca root words. tlapa is cav e word, first
lamps/tla(m)pa from hunter animal fat,
also the palli/pa/paint/phallic word,
tlapa/lapps(deer people north).
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azur(bb)=root, tlaza(N)=throw down, on to

raza/raiz(sp)=root.
izi(bb)=fly , whiz(E)/uitz(N)=arriv e, e.g.,
ecaitz(basque)/ecauitz(N)=ecatl uitz=
windcome.
a(r)gas(bb)=man, aga(arab)/ahauh(may an/
day 20/booktones)/aua(N)=water owner.
ul(bb)=heart, y ollotl(N)=heart.
ix f(bb)=head, ix f/pia(letra)=ix pia(N)=
face/ix (tli)-pia/piety , guard, the later
word, espy /spy .
in language, 50k is not a long time.
tzopilotl | June 10, 2009 at 11:24 pm | Reply

gadzooks, y ou published it, mati, tks. for
another look at the same subject, try the
tzopilotl wordpress, post berberi/berberion.
ah, mazy es=mazatl y ectli(N)=ex cellent(y es)
deer.
tzopilotl | June 12, 2009 at 7:44 pm | Reply

linguistic archeology is something new
and v ery old. new, because we hav ent had
pie nauatl before, that is, hav ent used it
as the data base for language. old, in that
it has alway s been there as the incarnation
of spirit and soul , alway s been for
peoples ancient or new. the wild connex ions
going back thousands of y ears using one
word, one utterance/itoa(N) take some
getting used to, in sending and receiv ing,
one can be way off the mark and sound like
a crack-pot papanatas(sp)/ninny , or one
can be right on in the most incredible of way s,
riding haplogroups like the circus horse
that it is through the hoops of science,
and there are many . it is difficult for
one rider to assimilate all the habits of
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the piebald horse of nauatl and most

difficult is the handling of interpretation
which can range from wild surmise
to the snick of the lock/tloc of certainty .
in this aspect, lingarch and letra differ
from demonstrable empires of science,
ex cept perhaps av iation, for we are dealing
with fluidity s of sound passed down throough
the lips of what seems like an eternity
alway s receding before us, whose
earthly name is history , but i can assure
y ou the one thing that man has created
that is closest to whatev er eternity he
ev er has aspired to, is language, and i
ask a little more respect for its findings
and its eminence in the workings of
this world where it is the only manifestation
of mans unconquerable driv e to not be
forgotten in a univ erse so lonely and
fobidding he had to inv ent himself the
gods to mistreat him. tks
Q | June 20, 2009 at 9:30 pm | Reply

Obv iously North African Berbers are white; no one with the slightest acquaintance with the
region would argue otherwise. But this idea that the Tuareg are somehow closely related to
the Beja is problematic to say the least. I dont know how strong the genetic arguments are
(although I notice they score ev en closer to the Berbers than to the Beja 480 v s. 558), but
V an Sertimas pseudoscientific ety mologies and far-fetched comparisons cannot possibly be
taken seriously . (Where do I begin? How am I ev en supposed to refute a book that compares
a Nubian (?) word for ory x with a Tuareg root for female or earth and the (presumably
Geez) name of a king of Aksum, or that claims without citation that the Mazikes were Beja, or
that the Makhorenes (sic) of Nubia were spread to Algeria, or that the Tuareg v eil was
once used to keep them from breathing on the sacred fire?)
Any way apart from interpretation issues (Beja>Tuareg or Tuareg>Beja?) theres an
obv ious potential problem with the genetic data: the Tuareg are a heterogeneous group.
Apart from the caste div isions (he say s the studies generally treat the ex -slav es separately ,
but doesnt mention any thing about the blacksmiths), they include at least one Western
Berber-speaking tribe (the Ay t-Tawari) and sev eral others which probably shifted from
Western Berber to Tuareg; and, from some perspectiv es, they also include three nomadic
Northern Songhay tribes, the Idaksahak, Igdalen, and Iberogan. Id like to see which tribes
and castes Cav alli-Sforzas data came from before drawing any conclusions.
slayerx13 | July 1, 2009 at 5:21 pm | Reply

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the darck berber y ou mention are berber mix ed with slav e and arabic inv ader we call them in
berber a v erca it mean slav e the berber who liv e in high land are white they loock
nordic/mediteranean the sami liv e in north europe if they shary dna with berber it mean that
somme north tribe of europe probably during ice age go further down in penesula and ev en
north africa

- mozabit are not berber we used them in war they com from midelest (and also dna giv e me
right)and they are shite in religion and giv e them the right to stail in north africa
-touareg are outsider dominated by the berber who giv e them culture and the art of war
-kaby le there is two the great : (werre the pure wiht berber are) werre the peaple nev er mix e
with arab and turck as they hav e the hate for all stangea and consider him inv erior, the small
herre whit berber mix ed with slav e and
arab/turck inv ader they loock darcker somtimes whit and hav e berber culture and tongue
the great try
do dont mix with the small
-chaoui are : berber/arab/jew/turk admix ture
they are the most enmy of the great kaby le in nortrh africa
herre is the pseudo berber of algeria as conclusion in spite of the great kaby le who are decent
of pure berber and whit all are bastard
in addition i say that in north africa all parte who was inhabited by the berber y ou find
blonde blue ey ed peapel among the population and less werre they unhabited lick sahara
concerning morroco it the samme thing all peapel mix ed white arabo turk and slav e may be a
litel minority in the high land the v ideo y ou poste dont loock for me berber at all and also the
pic they are arab from midel est or better a mix ture of both

in spite of the kaby le of great kabily all are mix ed notte also that in north africa y ou find
blonde blue ey ed peapel among the population in the region who werre inhabited by berber
during antiquity and less in the region who was not inhabited by berber lick sahara and south
of north africa
tzopilotl | July 20, 2009 at 11:15 pm | Reply

another addition to the, noma, nomatka,
nomatzinco(N)= still, the same, spontaneous,
alway s=nomad: meat/matr(ON)/
mats(Goth)/mat,matam(OSax )/maz(OHG)/
my aso(rus)/mazat, cmazat(rus)=annoint.
mazatl ce uentli sev en se(r)v e, tonalamatl.
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matlatl(N)=net, matlalli, matlallin(N)=

dark green, deep blue(netland).
ma(N)=hunt land/sea with net,
one goes from deer to fishing
all in one v erb, ma=ma(n).
egocentric | July 22, 2009 at 11:35 pm | Reply

slay erx 1 3
go back play ing computer games. Kaby le and chaoui intermarry all the time!!!
slayerx13 | August 21, 2009 at 7:18 pm | Reply

am hold for cpu gamme !and y es kaby le from SMALL KABY LIE marry with chaoui and ev ry
thing else in north africa but not from the great.
jake, borrowing his professor's computer | September 28, 2009 at 9:11 pm | Reply
Cav alli-sforza is not necessarily right about his claims that afroasiaticgiv en that Greenberg,
and nearly all of the mainstream historical linguists say that the phy lum arose in Africa. The
place of origin of the U group if it is 60,000 y ears of age as Torroni say s would hav e to be
Africa.
At another lev el it would be wise to work from ev olutionary models and cautious thinking.
The peopling issue and the culture issue might be different things. There are no Berbers in the
Near Eastand no tex tual ev idenceor hints in the Assy rian and other documents suggest
that there were Berbers there. The m35/81 Y v ariant is essentially restricted to Africa and
has a coalescence time that is nearly Holocene which fits the linguistic ev idence. Rapid
microev olution coupled with social and sex ual selection can alter gene frequencies. The U
haplogroup is likely African in originand it is not surprising that it was found in northern
Africa. Giv en that Cromagnon and later western Europeans are not biogeographically
European in origin it is not clear why there is all of this emotion about Africathere is no
getting around Africas role in the macroclade that led to humans.

The place of origin of the U group if it is 60,000 y ears of age as Torroni say s would hav e to
be Africa
Ah no, as modern humans were out of Africa by about 85k ago at the latest. Modern
Humans were in Australia at 60k ago. M81 Id actually put down as Neolithic and
ex panding with the population mov enment from East to West that y ou see at that time., as
M81 appears to come from the Nile delta.
Iv e seen a lot of academic dispute about the origins of Afro Asiatic- and no, Africa is not
the generally accepted point of origin for it. In particluar I hav e issues with Dr Ehrets
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work, which has proto cushitic at 1 0k old (herding sheep and goats) when the only place
goats and sheep were 1 0k ago was sy ria and Northwards of there. Reconstructions of PAA
show up Lev antine and NOT African animals and plants. The real problem with an African
origin for PAA now is that Chadic speakers all chow high amounts of Eurasian male
ancestry that arriv ed with the Neolithic and their sheep and goats, which really doesnt
help the Africa side of the coin toss. The African AA speakers all show Neolithic input
coming from the nile delta and into their area, but theres no suitable populaiton or
cultural mov ementout of Africa to account for the fact Semitic was close enough to loan
words to proto Indo Europeans when they (IEs) first got agriculture.
El Mohamed | October 22, 2009 at 12:57 pm | Reply

To all :
After all these y ears of human infestation , I find it both unnecessary and childish to prov e
that a certain people where of a certain complex ion ,after all; humans of all shades hav e
contributed to the ill being of planet earth (including all of y ou, y ou tree hugging, sav e the
whale freaks: y ou belong to the same pathetic race).
I sometimes wish that the E.T. crowds were right so that all this nonsense of which human is
better would disappear.
As a Mediterranean North African I would hav e no problems siding with the Aliens as they
kick ass (mine included) and then well find out whos superior.
El
Howard | December 6, 2009 at 8:14 pm | Reply

mathilda37
y ou know what i think, i think people are confusing the word (black Moor) with the color of
skin?. infact black as in the word also comes from Moor the fact that there also know as sea
people,people of the black sea!. Mauri was the genesis of the name of the ancient kingdom of
Mauretania!.Moor is sometimes used in a wider contex t to describe any person from North
Africa.
http://dancingfromgenesis.wordpress.com/2009/02/1 8/ancient-history -theories-ofcartography -atlantis-great-py ramid-prehistoric-ice-age-mapping-nav igation-stone-agecultures-of-mediterranean-sea-basin-trireme-ships-metallurgy -of-bronze-age-atlanteanemp/
Howard | December 6, 2009 at 8:26 pm | Reply

The term Caucasian race (also Caucasoid) has been used to denote the general phy sical ty pe
of some or all of the indigenous populations of Europe, North Africa, the Horn of Africa, West
Asia, Central Asia, and South Asia. Historically , the term has been used to describe the entire
population of these regions, Caucasus Mountains= Caucasian race ..grt blog keep it coming
v ery interesting..
Joseph | December 12, 2009 at 10:56 pm | Reply

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Chadic speakers all chow high amounts of Eurasian male ancestry that arriv ed with the
Neolithic and their sheep and goats, which really doesnt help the Africa side of the coin
toss
high eurasian ancestry NONSENSE,how can they hav e high eurasian ancestry when it is
the 3rd most observ ed in terms of genetics and the majority of their dna is Haplogroup E
which is common amongst other africans?
Regardless of what y ou think about ehrets work,y ou are not a qualified
Linguist,therefore,y ou cannot state his works as being fraudulent. just because it doesnt
agree with y our eurocentric v iew of AEs and africans as a whole of being eurasian b/c they
dont meet up to y our stereoty pical perspectiv e of a big nose and lipafrican.
mathilda37 | May 7, 2010 at 12:33 pm | Reply

Chadic speakers hav e high Eurasian ancestry on the Y chr, the Ouldeme hav e about 95%
R1 b, and Cameroon as a whole was about 40% R1 b.
Joseph, plenty if linguists and other scholars hav e issue with the quality of Ehrets work for
the same reasons I do.
I suggest if y ou dont like non- Afrocentric sites that y ou dont come here again.
Joseph | December 12, 2009 at 10:58 pm | Reply

Christopher Ehret
Professor of History , African Studies Chair
Univ ersity of California at Los Angeles
Ancient Egy ptian civ ilization was, in way s and to an ex tent usually not recognized,
fundamentally African. The ev idence of both language and culture rev eals these African
roots.
The origins of Egy ptian ethnicity lay in the areas south of Egy pt. The ancient Egy ptian
language belonged to the Afrasian family (also called Afroasiatic or, formerly , HamitoSemitic). The speakers of the earliest Afrasian languages, according to recent studies, were a
set of peoples whose lands between 1 5,000 and 1 3,000 B.C. stretched from Nubia in the west
to far northern Somalia in the east. They supported themselv es by gathering wild grains. The
first elements of Egy ptian culture were laid down two thousand y ears later, between 1 2,000
and 1 0,000 B.C., when some of these Afrasian communities ex panded northward into Egy pt,
bringing with them a language directly ancestral to ancient Egy ptian. They also introduced to
Egy pt the idea of using wild grains as food.
A new religion came with them as well. Its central tenet ex plains the often localized origins of
later Egy ptian gods: the earliest Afrasians were, properly speaking, neither monotheistic nor
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poly theistic. Instead, each local community , comprising a clan or a group of related clans,
had its own distinct deity and centered its religious observ ances on that deity . This belief
sy stem persists today among sev eral Afrasian peoples of far southwest Ethiopia. And as
Biblical scholars hav e shown, Y ahweh, god of the ancient Hebrews, an Afrasian people of the
Semitic group, was originally also such a deity . The connection of many of Egy pts
predy nastic gods to particular localities is surely a modified v ersion of this early Afrasian
belief. Political unification in the late fourth millennium brought the Egy ptian deities
together in a new poly theistic sy stem. But their local origins remain amply apparent in the
records that hav e come down to us.
During the long era between about 1 0,000 and 6000 B.C., new kinds of southern influences
diffused into Egy pt. During these millennia, the Sahara had a wetter climate than it has today ,
with grassland or steppes in many areas that are now almost absolute desert. New wild
animals, most notably the cow, spread widely in the eastern Sahara in this period.
One of the ex citing archeological ev ents of the past twenty y ears was the discov ery that the
peoples of the steppes and grasslands to the immediate south of Egy pt domesticated these
cattle, as early as 9000 to 8000 B.C. The societies inv olv ed in this momentous dev elopment
included Afrasians and neighboring peoples whose languages belonged to a second major
African language family , Nilo-Saharan (Wendorf, Schild, Close 1 984; Wendorf, et al. 1 982).
The earliest domestic cattle came to Egy pt apparently from these southern neighbors,
probably before 6000 B.C., not, as we used to think, from the Middle East.
One major technological adv ance, pottery -making, was also initiated as early as 9000 B.C. by
the Nilo-Saharans and Afrasians who liv ed to the south of Egy pt. Soon thereafter, pots spread
to Egy ptian sites, almost 2,000 y ears before the first pottery was made in the Middle East.
V ery late in the same span of time, the cultiv ating of crops began in Egy pt. Since most of
Egy pt belonged then to the Mediterranean climatic zone, many of the new food plants came
from areas of similar climate in the Middle East. Two domestic animals of Middle Eastern
origin, the sheep and the goat, also entered northeastern Africa from the north during this
era.
But sev eral notable early Egy ptian crops came from Sudanic agriculture, independently
inv ented between 7 500 and 6000 B.C. by the Nilo-Saharan peoples (Ehret 1 993:1 04-1 25).
One such cultiv ated crop was the edible gourd. The botanical ev idence is confirmed in this
case by linguistics: Egy ptian bdt, or bed of gourds (Late Egy ptian bdt, gourd; cucumber),
is a borrowing of the Nilo-Saharan word *bud, edible gourd. Other early Egy ptian crops of
Sudanic origin included watermelons and castor beans. (To learn more on how historians use
linguistic ev idence, see note at end of this article.)
Between about 5000 and 3000 B.C. a new era of southern cultural influences took shape.
Increasing aridity pushed more of the human population of the eastern Sahara into areas
with good access to the waters of the Nile, and along the Nile the bottomlands were for the
first time cleared and farmed. The Egy ptian stretches of the riv er came to form the northern
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edge of a newly emergent Middle Nile Culture Area, which ex tended far south up the riv er,
well into the middle of modern-day Sudan. Peoples speaking languages of the Eastern
Sahelian branch of the Nilo-Saharan family inhabited the heartland of this region.
From the Middle Nile, Egy pt gained new items of liv elihood between 5000 and 3000 B.C.
One of these was a kind of cattle pen: its Egy ptian name, s3 (earlier *sr), can be deriv ed from
the Eastern Sahelian term *sar. Egy ptian pg3, bowl, (presumably from earlier pgr), a
borrowing of Nilo-Saharan *poKur, wooden bowl or trough, rev eals still another adoption
in material culture that most probably belongs to this era.
One key feature of classical Egy ptian political culture, usually assumed to hav e begun in
Egy pt, also shows strong links to the southern influences of this period. We refer here to a
particular kind of sacral chiefship that entailed, in its earliest v ersions, the sending of
serv ants into the afterlife along with the deceased chief. The deep roots and wide occurrence
of this custom among peoples who spoke Eastern Sahelian languages strongly imply that
sacral chiefship began not as a specifically Egy ptian inv ention, but instead as a widely shared
dev elopment of the Middle Nile Culture Area.
After about 3500 B.C., howev er, Egy pt would hav e started to take on a new role v is-a-v is the
Middle Nile region, simply because of its greater concentration of population. Growing
pressures on land and resources soon enhanced and transformed the political powers of
sacral chiefs. Unification followed, and the local deities of predy nastic times became gods in
a new poly theism, while sacral chiefs gav e way to a div ine king. At the same time, Egy pt
passed from the wings to center stage in the unfolding human drama of northeastern Africa.
A Note on the Use of Linguistic Ev idence for History
Languages prov ide a powerful set of tools for probing the cultural history of the peoples who
spoke them. Determining the relationships between particular languages, such as the
languages of the Afrasian or the Nilo-Saharan family , giv es us an outline history of the
societies that spoke those languages in the past. And because each word in a language has its
own indiv idual history , the v ocabulary of ev ery language forms a huge archiv e of
documents. If we can trace a particular word back to the common ancestor language of a
language family , then we know that the item of culture connoted by the word was known to
the people who spoke the ancestral tongue. If the word underwent a meaning change
between then and now, a corresponding change must hav e taken place in the cultural idea or
practice referred to by the word. In contrast, if a word was borrowed from another language,
it attests to a thing or dev elopment that passed from the one culture to the other. The English
borrowing, for ex ample, of castle, duke, parliament, and many other political and legal terms
from Old Norman French are ev idence of a Norman period of rule in England, a fact
confirmed by documents.
References Cited:
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Ehret, Christopher, Nilo-Saharans and the Saharo-Sahelian Neolithic. In African

Archaeology : Food, Metals and Towns. T. Shaw, P Sinclair, B. Andah, and A. Okpoko, eds. pp.
1 04-1 25. London: Routledge. 1 993
Ehret, Christopher, Reconstructing Proto-Afroasiatic (Proto-Afrasian): V owels, Tone
Consonants, and V ocabulary . Los Angeles: Univ ersity of California Press, Berkeley . 1 995
Wendorf, F., et al., Saharan Ex ploitation of Plants 8000 Y ears B.P. Nature 359:7 21 -7 24.
1 982
Wendorf, F., R. Schild, and A. Close, eds. Cattle-Keepers of the Eastern Sahara. Dallas:
Southern Methodist Univ ersity , Department of Anthropology . 1 984

Let me just comment on and correct this Ehret paper..
The origins of Egyptian ethnicity lay in the areas south of Egypt.
Well y es and no. The DNA shows a large migration into North Africa from the Lev ant
about 8k ago, and into Southern Egy pt Nubia from the western desert about 1 0k ago. It
would be an African culture with near eastern ceramics, crops and people. As for Afro
Asiatic being from South of Egy pt, ev en African origin supporters generally dont pick this
area as the origin of Afro Asiatic. There is now a growing body of ev idence to suggest
Afrasian actually comes from Asia (long story ).
They also introduced to Egypt the idea of using w ild grains as food
WIld grains were being used as food in the near east from about 20,000 y ears ago. There
was a migration from the near east into North Africa (Capsian) about 1 0k ago. WHich is
moot as Egy ptians were harv esting wild grains about 1 6,000 y ears ago (they hav e flint
sickles from that era).
One of the exciting archeological events of the past tw enty years w as the discovery that
the peoples of the steppes and grasslands to the immediate south of Egypt domesticated
these cattle, as early as 9000 to 8000 B.C.
The Nabta PLay a cattle hav e been shown to be wild cattle. They were probably being
captured from the wild and kept, as y ou see this behav iour in another Saharan site with
antelope.
But several notable early Egyptian crops came from Sudanic agriculture, independently
invented betw een 7 500 and 6000 B.C. by the Nilo-Saharan peoples
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NO. This is based on his linguistic dates which are generally about 35% out of sy nc. So
9,000 BP turns into 6,000 BP. Its a long story to do with goats and sheep.
almost 2,000 years before the first pottery w as made in the Middle East
Actually there are pots of a comparable age in Iran. People in the near east prefered to use
lighter pitch cov ered leather or plasterware bowls for a long time. Asian ceramics arriv e
in lower Egy pt with the neolithic (pretty cruddy compared to the Nubian). To be fair, they
only discov ered the Iranian pot a few y ears ago..
Nev er asked by any one: if Egy ptian culture came from the western Sahara why didnt
Egy ptians speak Nilo Saharan like Nubians?
whatever u like | December 20, 2009 at 6:19 am | Reply

i hav e been researching my genes and heritage for some time now. although i commend y our
research nothing can ex plain how much race and language makes up who y ou are. as an
african american who has nev er been to africa i cannot tell a berber whos ancestors been in
africa for at least 3,000 y ears that they are caucausian and im am a true african because i
am darker or hav e ancestry from where ev er darker people are in africa? lest they look at me
and laugh. also scientist say african people hav e more dna v ariation (because of early history
africa was important with MANY civ ilizations their was early racial intergration okay .) so
back to me actually because i do hav e some plain indian blood (from north america) y ou will
find it difficult to match my dna to any one from africa. which is a reason why it is rare to
match a african american dna to a group or region in africa ev en if y ou can clearly tell in our
features that we hav e african ancestors!genetics, and language is best ex perienced by
influence like for instance i am christain and speak english (not a big deal because im from
the united states.) actually not speaking from charts and graphs i know that culture is y our
true identity marker. as an american i lov e baseball and mov ies and participate in most
holiday observ ations; as i hav e been taught. just like in most african american families it is a
normal thing at family gatherings for the oldest people to tell stories and the y ounger ones
listen and the older y ou are the more y ou are respected in the family y ou will receiv e many
gifts at family reunions and people will v igh for y our attention and the older children watch
the y ounger children who knows how and where this tradition started but it here and mostly
y our heritage makes y ou who y ou are if someone told me tommorow i was part japanese it
still wouldt change my identity that has been intergrated in my familiy s structure. all i could
do is smile say and thats nice and accept it. god bless.
Elany | January 21, 2010 at 8:36 pm | Reply

Egy ptian people described a tribe of Ly bia called Libu as hav ing alot of Blonde Haired or
Light ey es people among them. According to a modern French History , there had been a
v ast migration of Ly bian tribes (Berbers) to western parts (as Algeria , which was already
inhabitted by Berbers called Numidians) these neighbours inv aders were called Zenatis
and now represent a big majority of the Berbers o f Algeria and Rifans.
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I think that the Libu tribe was surely a part of these Zenatis..that would be why , y ou find
more Light complex ions among Berbers of Algeria , than these of Ly bia , because most of
Libus settled through Algeria : ex ample : Chawi , Kaby lian and Rifans are Zenati tribes.
Im not Pro-something!
My mothe is Algerian and my father is of Sephardic descent.
tayo | February 24, 2010 at 8:49 pm | Reply

I hav e this article v ery interesting. As some who is Black African from Western Nigeria, I
hav e alway s known that Berbers are not black africans in any shape or form, that why africa
is alway s been mainly div ided into two ,the North (Berbers, Arabs etc) and the rest which
mainly Black African.
I would not call an Ethiopian black african, ev ery body back home knowns the diifference and
no one cares, because we all hav e our own div erse and wonderful rich cultures whether it be
Berbers, Arabs or Black African all of which by the way is v ery , v ery div erse with indiv idual
cultures, langugues, history etc.
I think the afrocentric thing most be a Black Western idea, not a Black African one.
Uraeus | April 6, 2010 at 2:24 pm | Reply

Tay o.
Y ou are are man of common sense, and I totally agree with what y ou hav e writen.
And y es afrocentrism is a Black Westen Idea; mainly a Black-American Ideology .
I hope some of those Afrocentrists will read y our post here on Matild`s blog, because
these Afrocentrists from North-America hav e nev er been outside their own country letalone Africa with all its human div ersity . But they won`t be pleased with what y ou hav e
writen; because it goes against their warped Ideology . I would like to thank y ou for y our
comments!
ps I am a Kaby le Berber.
Taziri | March 5, 2010 at 8:30 pm | Reply

Thank y ou for the great site, it is v ery interesting to see different v iews, I am chaoui berber
from Aures Algeria residing in the USA, my v illage is a small one in the Auresean mountains
called Tkout, it has not been Arabnisd and all are v ery white, blond to brown hair, green,
blue, and brown ey es. We still do old ceremonies and speak only berber, many are still
pagans in the area, with many new customs brought from the Jewish.. We were not touched
by the Arabs nor can y ou see any impact of what the Arabs brought during the Islamic
mov ement. There are many old cav e paintings that are prehistoric in the mountain areas
showing white people killing and eating animals along with ceremony paintings.. I do not
believ e that they would hav e lied about the color of their skin back then, but as there were so
many inv asions in my ancestors lands many areas did get mix ed.. I hav e read one ancient
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Roman book that said when they had landed and went into the mountains, they found a
berber queen Dihy a Damia who was white, her people were white with light colored hair and
barbaric..thus the name berber came upon us.. do y ou really think historical books and
paintings lie? we are so full of hate now a day s we get colored blind.. again thank y ou for the
wonderful site I hav e bookmarked it and welcome y ou to come to my v illage to ex plore our
paintings, mountains, and old v illages that are prehistoric
Keltici | March 14, 2010 at 6:30 pm | Reply

Mathilda:
Can y ou do us a big fav or and respond to the clown know as Genocenrist ov er on
eupedia.com as regards Berber origins (Berber thread). I can only argue to a small ex tent,
since as Im lacking information and dont hav e the time.
Mia | March 20, 2010 at 5:46 am | Reply

Wow! What an amazing blog! I was researching information about the people of the Canary
Islands where my family is from, and I came across this blog. Many thanks Mathilda37 !
Uraeus | April 23, 2010 at 2:23 pm | Reply

Matilda
May I ask why my last post, where I replied to Tay o has not been posted? Was there
something in my reply to Tay o that y ou found offensiv e?

Was there something in my reply to Tay o that y ou found offensiv e
No, I hav ent been to the blog in months, and I need to pass all comments due to sex ually
ex plicict abusiv e material being posted here before.
amazigh | May 9, 2010 at 7:41 pm | Reply

Thanks for sharring importent information in this blog.
It was v ery nice.
midax | May 14, 2010 at 9:41 pm | Reply

thank y ou for this rich blog where infos are interressant. africa will beleav e great!
Mike | May 15, 2010 at 6:28 am | Reply

At the guy who said Afrocentrism is a black western idea y ou are totally wrong. Many
Africans know their history and also practice a pan-Africanism such as Molefi Kete Asante
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and Cheikh Diop who I believ e is from Senegal.

I will agree that their is a such thing as Afrocentrism but there is also a such thing as
Eurocentrism. Who is to say one ov erides the other in correctness? It all depends on y our
worldv iew and how y ou look at things. The so called credible sources that ev ery body
chooses to believ es will alway s be RIGHT to one person and WRONG to another. So in
essence we are all biased to some ex tent. Howev er, genetics are recorded blueprints of
history , but they dont ALWAY s tell us the entire history . I believ e one should study the oral
traditions of a people and compare their orgin with the current culture. Its not alway s about
black, white, arab, etc. Because people fell to realize that the stereoty pical Arab is not the
ONLY nativ es to the middle east. There was a large ex tent Negritos, and other NATIV E
black people (non-african) who established civ ilizations there. Im ranting, but basically
what im try ing to say is ev ery one is entitled to believ e what they want to believ e. But at the
end of the day humanity started at one place.
mathilda37 | May 15, 2010 at 10:13 am | Reply

But at the end of the day humanity started at one place
Actually no it didnt. The DNA sy udies show we hav e Nenaderthal DNA in us too.
w as a large extent Negritos, and other NATIV E black people (non-african) w ho
established civilizations there.
They are there, but theres no ev idence they predate the Islamic slav e trade or built the
civ ilisations there.
Anonimous | May 19, 2013 at 8:57 pm | Reply

Dear Mathilda
A comment
Ev ery body dream with ex traterrestrial inteigence. On said inteligence came from space and
spread all ov er from space? Some Legens seems said that
We beliv e to know prety good, how human spread ov er earth but at time we suppose
inteligence were with all of them from the begining Why ? Dont seem v ery clev er think that
human born, from the v ery begining with all the ex tras specialli with the inteligence
packet Is more natural, (Ev olucionism), think tan diferents human groups essais his own
way to inteligence.
And the inteligence suddenlt was just in a point of the planet in this v ery moment.
We can also thing that the inteligence born just in one pllace in earth and was ex tended from
this point to all ov er by both inv asions and sex /rape blabla by spreaded the smarts genes (
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7/31/2014
the big div ersiti genes in some places can be reinterpreted laike that a imposed mix ed with
the intruder genes)
The clev er people sure, must be taken by the rest of people as if they where Gods or
ex traterrestrial (so the Ley ends)
Time to spread all ov er? minimun 30.000 y ears (Any v oluntier?)
Suposed thisfind the starting the point!
Is amazing.
Enjoy & Good luck
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Eurasian Origins of Berbers and Modern North Africans

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Mathildas Anthropology Blog.

Eurasian Origins of Berbers and modern North Africans.

Eurasian Origin of Berbers and m odern North Africans

Institute of Biological Anthropology, University of Oxford, Oxford, UK

Department of Evolutionary Genetics, Max-Planck Institute for Evolutionary

Department of Human Genetics, University of Chicago, 920 East 58th Street,

Laboratoire dEcologie Humaine, Facult des Sciences-Semlalia, Universit Cadi

Centre dAnthropologie CNRS,, University of Toulouse, UMR 8555, France

Received: 1 5 November 2004 Accepted: 23 December 2004 Published online:

from migrating farmers) or a culturaldiffusion (w ithout substantialmigration of farmers).

Mitochondrial DNA heterogeneity in Tunisian Berbers

haplotypefrequencies, and w ith the high heterogeneity displayed by Berbers compared to

Neolithic.The Mauritanians and West-Saharans, in contrast, bear substantial though not

The faces of modern North Africa.

for a strong genetic boundary through the Gibraltar Straits

(up to 25%) of geographically specific sequences (nam ed haplogroup U6) that is

Cameroons Y chromosomes as a result (although less in other areas).

Carthage era coins, with two coins showing Hannibal.

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162 RESPONSES TO EURASIAN ORIGINS OF BERBERS AND MODERN NORTH AFRICANS.

xvcxvxc | November 2, 2008 at 9:39 am | Reply

Pingback: Tom joj Are there any northwewt african tribes?

Lisa Dupri | December 7, 2008 at 10:26 pm | Reply

mathilda37 | December 9, 2008 at 4:06 pm | Reply

moderately tanned or middle Eastern in colouring

Justin | December 14, 2008 at 10:27 am | Reply

luis | December 17, 2008 at 12:09 am | Reply

Justin | December 19, 2008 at 8:22 pm | Reply

beautiful peninsula and not the opposite.

Justin | December 21, 2008 at 11:20 am | Reply

NubianMoor | December 24, 2008 at 4:48 pm | Reply

mathilda37 | December 27, 2008 at 10:40 am | Reply

shanevella | May 11, 2010 at 11:57 pm |

luis | December 24, 2008 at 6:25 pm | Reply

Don Blake | December 24, 2008 at 6:50 pm | Reply

mathilda37 | December 27, 2008 at 10:34 am | Reply

Justin | December 27, 2008 at 2:12 pm | Reply

Justin | December 27, 2008 at 2:17 pm | Reply

The Bass | December 28, 2008 at 10:40 am | Reply

C.Bass | December 28, 2008 at 4:44 pm | Reply

mathilda37 | December 28, 2008 at 7:24 pm | Reply

Justin | December 28, 2008 at 7:50 pm | Reply

mathilda37 | December 28, 2008 at 8:10 pm | Reply

Justin | December 29, 2008 at 12:38 pm | Reply

Liz Bradshaw | December 31, 2008 at 1:47 am | Reply

Liz Bradshaw | December 31, 2008 at 2:05 am | Reply

mathilda37 | December 31, 2008 at 2:44 pm | Reply

mathilda37 | January 2, 2009 at 6:32 pm | Reply

Justin | January 3, 2009 at 7:56 pm | Reply

Some pictures say often more than many words

mathilda37 | January 3, 2009 at 8:50 pm | Reply

ANTHROPOLOGIQUE | January 22, 2009 at 8:34 pm | Reply

Dana Marniche | January 28, 2009 at 11:49 pm | Reply

mathilda37 | January 29, 2009 at 10:52 am | Reply

Moroccan berber | February 5, 2009 at 9:14 pm | Reply

Moroccan berber | February 5, 2009 at 9:34 pm | Reply

Moroccan berber | February 5, 2009 at 9:36 pm | Reply

I think berbers are cro-magnons

Kiwi Phil | February 10, 2009 at 10:57 am | Reply

mathilda37 | February 10, 2009 at 2:06 pm | Reply

Excalibur | April 29, 2009 at 6:37 pm | Reply

Scandinav ia,the Mt-DNA haplogroup U6!

ANTHROPOLOGIQUE | February 12, 2009 at 3:37 pm | Reply