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SUZUKI RSHI ON ZEN CENTER HISTORY, PERSONAL HISTORY, AND NONA RANSOM
http://www.cuke.com/Cucumber%20Project/Shunryu-on-Shunryu/shunryu-on-shunryu.html

September 16, 1969
Entered onto disk by David Chadwick
Revised by Bill Redican 9/01
[From almost the very first, for a while very hard to understand because mike is on the tape recorder.
But it has been checked pretty closely and I think it's 99.9% right. David Chadwick]
Peter Schneider: Suzuki-rshi, will you tell me about Miss Ransom?
Suzuki-rshi: Miss Ransom. She was teaching us at Komazawa University when I first see her.
PS: Teaching what, Rshi?
SR: Teaching English, and she was teaching us conversationhow toonce a week. And at that time I
have not much relationship with her, but after I finished preparatory course of UniversityKomazawa
and became specialized in Buddhist course, I was still interested in studying English so once in a while I
attended her lecture in some other course and in English course. And one summer, in summer
vacation I called her because it was so hot, just because I couldn't get home.
So I called her at the back door and sitting in the one room near kitchen I asked a cup of water but she
gave us something different, watermelon, and she appeared in that room and she asked me to help
her, in shopping, or such things like that when she has some difficulty in speaking with some Japanese
people, but at that time two students were working, or helping her already [blank spot], so she may
not need me, but she said one boy from Komazawa is leaving quite soon so she said she wanted me.
That was how our more closer relationship became then.
And at first she was, she came to China, to help the last Emperor of China, SentoEmperor Sento. She
was tutor [not tutor?]. And Mr. Yoshida who became prime minister of Japan, helped her to invite or
actually Mr. Yoshida invited her to Japanese parents as a [tutor?] [blank space]took some
advertisement in paper and offered her fatherI don't know how his name, he was quite famous
though.
And she is quite strict and maybe stubborn and she was trying to force English way to us and to
Japanese people. And she had always some complaint so mostly what I have to do is to listen to her
complaints. Anyway I don't know who was her father who was famous. So far as I know he is as
famous as General [Admiral] Togo [Heihachiro], who defeated Russian fleet in Japan Sea.
I stayed with her 1-1/2 year
PS: Living in the house, Rshi?
SR: Yes, living in her house. I have many difficulties from living in her house but anyway I stayed there.
At last I left her, not because some difficulty between us but because I felt in this way: I may not be a
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priest anymore. One day when I visited um residence or residence or residence or office of Turkish,
Ambassador from Turk?
PS: Yeah, Turkish, yes.
SR: Ambassador. And there were one who helped himand seeing what he want to be there, maybe
someday I shall be like you. I scared of myself you know, what I will become an ambassador, not
become a priest [sounds right I guess] if I stay there two or three years. So I left her and I came back to
dormitory. That is relationship between I and Mrs. Ransom.
And one more thing, maybe. One more thing. She becameshe was not a Buddhist when I met her.
And she had a beautiful Buddha.
[Noise and laughterSuzuki takes some food from Peter.]
SR: You are my jisha.
PS: Probably the only jisha who serves you chicken. You want some more? [Both laughing.]
[Can't understandjoking around.]
SR: She was not Buddhist. But she had a beautiful Buddha about one feet sittingand she put in
on tokonomabut she put also her shoes with Buddha, side by side. I am not so concerned about
those things, especially when she is not Buddhist, but that was my problem, so I decided to change her
way. So I offered everyday a cup of tea to Buddha. And she was very much amused about the offering
of tea. So she had many guestsso she started to tease me or not accuse me but she tease me by
putting a toothpick into Buddha's hand or matches.
PS: I didn't know that part before [laughing], putting matches huh?
SR: Yeah. I don't know who did it. Maybe her guests because she told them, he is very naughty boy to
put tea before the Buddha. In this way one monthone more month passed and I didn't stop and she
was continuously teasing me but I ignore her what ever they do. I didn't think to take off toothpick or
matches. But I thought, there will be some chance for me to explain what is Buddha, what is
Buddhism, so I studied hard to explain in English how to do it and learn some vocabulary. And at last
she asked me about why we worship Buddha, Buddhahoodlike this explain about it. And she was
amazed, you know, and since then she didn't tease me anymore and she started to try to understand
what was Buddhism actually what was Buddhism and what is theand she turned to be Buddhist, and
she became a Buddhist, Buddhism save her. And she asked me to buy some incense for her, incense
and some other things toosmall bell, as I told this kind of things is necessary.
And that gives me some confidence in the possibility of understanding Buddhism for the Caucasians
people.
[At this point Peter takes the mike off the machine and we can hear better!]
They understand quite easily, I thought, what is Buddhism, and they may like Buddhismso I wanted
to cometo go abroad or at least Hokkaido to where I have chance to speak to Caucasian or at least
foreigners who doesn't know what is Buddhism. But my master was, my master scolded me when I
asked him to go to America or Hokkaido. I said, "America." He said, "No." And I said "Hokkaido." "No."
And at last he was, he became very angry and, "You should stay here." Just one word.
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So I gave up my notion of going abroad. And I gave up completely my idea of going, coming to
America. Several times I had a chance to come to America but I refused to come. In 1954 [this is a
mistakehe corrects to 1958 later] as I finished what my teacher told me to do I decided to come to
America. So there is some truth that I was with her was actually my turning point of life, I think, it
wasmy idea was of going abroad was always, must be here although I gave up, I thought I gave up,
but I didn't.
I don't want to say why I came to America because I was invited actually Japanese congregation. But
when I said "yes" our headquarters did not appoint me to this temple but as an assistant resident
priest of Soko-ji. That means that I am not responsible for Soko-ji if I just help and that was my duty.
But as soon as I come here headquarters wanted me to take over Tobase's position. So I must be
faithful to Japanese members. So I don't want to say this point so clearly. I have never expressed any
idea of - my real idea of coming to America, but actually I thought if I could go to San Francisco I can do
something which I want to donot for distant country but for American people.
PS: You said in 1954 you decided, but you didn't come until 1959.
SR: No.
PS: You meant to say 1959.
SR: Oh, 1959. Excuse me. I mixed up. My age was at that time was 54.
PS: Okay. That's very helpful Roshi. That's only the first question. Let's see. When the students first
came did they sit upstairs here or downstairs?
SR: Upstairs. At that time we have no sitting place to sit.
PS: You just had the pews.
SR: Yes.
PS: Was Bill McNeil and his wife your first students? The very first?
SR: The very. The very first ones.
PS: How did he come here, Bill.
SR: One day Lou appeared came (they clarify pronunciation) one morning and she said my husband
wants to go to Japan and she wanted to know about it. And I said to her, "If so, it may be a good idea
for him to come and sit." So McNeil, not Lou, started to sit with meMcNeil. And one morning Lou
also when McNeil wanted to go home Lou came up from the stairs and McNeil was rather amazed to
see her. And why did you come? And they were talking something. Lou did not tell him, you know,
anything. I think she must have told him just to go to Soko-ji without telling him any reason. And
McNeil didn't know that she came here and made some arrangement with me. So anyway they two
started to sit with us. And then when I had many students, and Dr. Kato for a while he was here and
helped. And those who were studying Asian Academy joined. And so Jean, Della, and Warren, and
some other students joinednot Zen Centerat top of stairs.
PS: With the early students was there any feeling of sangha?
SR: Yes. Not sangha. They were sitting with me every morning, constantly, so more and more we
created a feeling of sangha. And they offered me some money each month. I didn't feel to spend that
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money. You know if I have it I may spend it in various ways, so I thought it would be better to decide to
some treasurer or someone to find someone to take care of the money I received. And that is how Zen
Center started maybe actually. In 1962 we organized Zen Center.
PS: When you used to do takuhatsu, Roshi, the students asked you if they could do takuhatsu also and
you said no. Why did you say no?
SR: Why? At that time, you know, it is maybe too . . . what we are doing it, I thought it is not so good or
not so formal practice but is it is too early to do this.
PS: Do you think you were more strict in the beginning? Or less strict? This is interesting for me, Rshi.
For example you used to tell people not to move during zazen and at some point you must have
stopped for some reason.
SR: Because, you know, at that time they moved a lot.
PS: They don't move any more?
SR: They don't move any more so I don't tell them.
PS: Why did you just give shinshanshiki just once?
SR: Once? That isit should be just once because it is installation ceremony too distant.
PS: Isn't that when students get lay rakusu?
SR: No. Oh, nyushinshiki you mean. Shinsanshiki [Mountain Seat Ceremony], that's different. That is, I
think we have to do it, but we are pretty busy so we don't. Oh, today I, excuse me. Today -
[Break.]
PS: How did the Wind Bell start?
SR: Wind Bell started just by printing one sheet of paper.
PS: Whose idea was the Wind Bell?
[(At top of page 3 is a handwritten note as follows: Suzuki-roshi: Who helped start WB. Philip & JJ do
the first issue with you? Roshi: No. Not actually. Of course they may have helped.)]
[Begin Side 2]
SR: Not my idea or some other's idea, you know. We just started saying that it will be a good idea
because Dick was, you know, Dick and some other students always writing my lecture (end of side one)
and made - asked me many questions about my lecture. So naturally we thought it may be good idea.
But if I start to - what I say in my lecture with very awkward English, you know, what I have in my mind
is very different, so I have to write down something. So in the Wind Bell the reader couldn't get the
original talk, just my broken English corrected by some others, someone else, like Dick. That is how. I
think you have Wind Bell Number 1.
PS: Yes.
SR: That kind of thing.
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PS: Do you have a picture of Yamada-rshi somewhere? Old picture.
SR: Maybe. I don't think so. Someone may have it. Do you want his picture alone in the picture or ...
PS: Some picture taken back then. Some man used to take Zen Center pictures, Roshi. Who was he?
SR: He's coming so I'll ask him.
PS: Okay. There was a certain development of the zend. You took out the pews and used tatamis. You
painted the zend. How did this change all take place?
SR: Little by little. At first we take out all the pews. That was pretty difficult thing to do, because
Japanese people doesn't sit; they need chair. That's opposite. But since Zen Center bought those chairs
for Japanese people - Red one was given to us by some Caucasian who came to Soko-ji before we
come to Soko-ji temple. Twenty of them was given to us. And we bought some more, maybe twenty,
so we decided to take out the pews. Actually it destroyed the pews.
PS: How did the mats go down?
SR: Mats?
PS: Tatami.
SR: Oh. Tatami. I think they helpedJapanese members helpedI thought 100 to buy tatamis. At that
time some Japanese people were sitting. Not many. Two, three. One is still alive. Two of them passed
away. So they put the emphasis on Zen in Japanese congregation. At that time it was pretty good. The
relationship was pretty good.
PS: Phillip says that every Saturday you would carry the pews in and out.
SR: Oh yeah, I did.
PS: For Japanese sake.
SR: Uh-huh, I did. We carry out when we are sitting. Before we have chairs. Yeah. In and out. All the
time. Everyweekly.
PS: How did the Japanese feel about that?
SR: Most of them didn't know. Those people who come here always understand Zen Center very well,
but some people many people who doesn't come to Soko-ji, even on Sunday service, criticize Zen
Center.
PS: Why did you have the nyushinshiki ceremony just once?
SR: Oh, nyushinshiki ceremony just once? Because I'm a little bit discouraged. At that time we
had nyushinshiki ceremony for maybe 13 people, I don't remember how many. I have record. But most
of them many of them - some of them you know said we don't want this any more and return it to me.
So I was rather discouraged. For Japanese people it is good you know, but for American people it is
toosomething too formal.
PS: I can't put that in history (laughing). Not good history answer.
SR: Yeah.
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SR: Did you ordain Bob Hense and Bill McNeil?
SR: Bob?
PS: Hense.
SR: Oh, Robert. Yes.
PS: They were ordained in Japan or here?
SR: In Japan. They formally shaved his head without knowing what was it. [Both laugh.] My friend did it
at that time. Not very good history. [Laugh.]
PS: During sesshins sometimes you would leave for two hours and there would be no bells for two
hours. Did you do that for practice or did you just forget? Students always wondered. Maybe you
shouldn't tell (laugh). Sometimes Roshi an hour and a half would go by. Then all of a sudden you'd walk
in, you'd walk to the kitchen and then you'd walk out again.
SR: Yeah. That is, you know, how my teacher did with me you know. Maybe sometime I forgot, but I
didn't feel so bad. [Both laugh.] I thought, watching clock, oh, it was too long, you know. And doesn't
matterone more hour. I have that kind of feeling at that timenot the first time.
PS: Let's see. Actually maybe that's enough.
SR: That may be very interesting topic to write.
PS: That's in the Wind Bell, but I have not said why. I guess I won't say why either. But students
describe waiting and waiting and waiting. They remember that very much. Also, you used to have, first
period of sesshin was always double period.
SR: Yeah. [Long pause.] It is you knowat that time I put emphasis on to forget the idea, to get rid of
the idea of time place. Where they are, how long they should sit, that is not, you know, zazen. If you
sit, the confidence should be (phone rings) to sit foreverhere.
PS: What is your father's name, Roshi?
SR: Sogaku.
PS: You graduated from college when you were 26.
SR: Uh-huh.
PS: Is that pretty old?
SR: Yes.
[Loud motor sound here.]
PS: Why did you start school so late?
SR: Because I was with my teacher, cooking, serving, and so on. I haven't finished middle school or high
school.
PS: Oh I see. When did you begin studying with your teacher, when you were 14 or something?
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SR: Thirteen.
PS: Did you quit high school when you were 13?
[Mike movedpoor sound.]
SR: I only finished grammar school. And I was studying, of course, in the temple so I could enter the
last two years - at that time high school was five years - and I took the fourth grade and fifth grade only
at that high school. And that is why.
PS: How old were you then? Twenty?
SR: Uhhhh [sighing], yeah twenty. Stayed twenty-one.
PS: When you were in high school still?
SR: Yes. My schooling is very late one.
PS: You didn't begin studying with Kishizawa-rshi until 1932?
SR: Um-hum.
PS: I see. Your teacher was your uncle also?
SR: My teacher was my father's disciple.
PS: Your father's disciple, that's right. That's not this fellow, though. Is it Kishizawa?
SR: Yes Kishizawa.
PS: Was your father's disciple?
SR: No he is my (long blank space) teacher's friend.(last two words not in tape I have.)
PS: You were ordained when you were 13 by your father's disciple. Is he also your uncle? He has the
same name, Suzuki.
SR: Yeah, maybe so. Uncle, but not real one.
PS: Is it just coincidence that you have the same name?
SR: No. He was adopted by my father.
PS: You had this shuso ceremony at Kenko-in. Where is that?
SR: At Shizuoka City.
PS: Was that a training monastery for Shizuoka?
SR: Yes, but actually there was not much students.
PS: Were there any students? Just you?
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SR: No, several students. But at that time when I had shuso ceremony more priests and monks came to
join the ceremony - not only the ceremony but the practice.
PS: It says here that when you were 22 you had dharma transmission. And then it says that you
have tenei. What does that mean? Osho or Zen master?
SR: Tenei means "to go to, to change off." "Dharma transmission" is just - at that time my master
wanted me to be successor of his former temple. Although my practice was not good enough, because
of that, because of he wanted me to take over his former temple. Before he came to Rinso-in he was
head priest of Zoun-in where my father was.
PS: That is not here? Zo-
SR: un-in.
SR: How do you spell that?
Suzuki-rshi: Z-o-u-n-i-n.
[PS: So you became, did that happen then? You became the priest at Zoun-in?
SR: Yes. After there.] (not on tape)
PS: So that does not make you zen master then. That just makes you osho?
SR: Osho.
PS: This is right about when you finished high school?
SR: No. Komazawa. Yes.
PS: You finished Komazawa in 1930. This is 1926. Actually Tenei is after or during Komazawa. Dharma
transmission is right before.
SR: This is just -
PS: Private thing huh?
SR: No. This is. Officially I was supposed to receive transmission here (thumping), but actually I haven't.
PS: How do you mean you haven't?
SR: Just because, you know, to make acknowledgement from headquarters we submitted this
(thumping), my master submitted this.
PS: So you could have a robe for Eihei-ji or what?
SR: I didn't wear - just this is just formal - what do you say? - record. (dharma transmission [?]). I have
this record at our headquarters, but actually I became, I changed my robe.
SR: Oh, there - I see, I see.
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SR: If I haven't this record I couldn't take over my, his former temple. And at that time I couldn't
actually take over his position and my father was doing it, my job there, and I was studying at
Komazawa.
PS: How long did you keep Zoun-in?
SR: Five years.
PS: Until your master died?
SR: Um-hum. No, no. Maybe ten years. Five years I actually
PS: Lived there?
SR: Rinso-in and I was - since even after I became head, must head priest of Rinso-in, I was taking care
of this temple. (thumping here and there)
PS: So you had two temples then?
SR: At that time, for five years. (Must mean 1934-39)
PS: What does this mean here, Roshi. It says you were the Koshi at Bansho Zenrin.
SR: Koshi means "someone to give lectures." Bansho this is so called Kasuisai temple where the head
of the Soto school, Takashina-rshi, lived. Takashina-rshi.
PS: That is the man who later became abbot of Eihei-ji?
SR: Yes. Eihei-ji and Soji-ji and head of the St.
PS: I see. He was the head of-in Shizuoka-ken, huh?
SR: Yeah.
PS: First. Okay. Now - when did you take over your master's temple? 1932 huh?
SR: Zoun-in?
PS: Oh, here's that one. Right. Zoun-in. Then in 1936. Your master died in 1936.
SR: Yes. No, no. My master died in 1934. At that time I was too young. I was maybe about 31 or
something like that.
PS: You were born in 1904.
SR: Yes.
PS: He died in 1934 or 1935?
Suzuki-rshi: I don't know by your counting.
PS: How old were you? You think you were 31.
SR: Yes.
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PS: And you were too young to take over his temple so what happened?
SR: So there was a long confusion. Someone supported me. "Even though he's young, it's all right."
Someone said, "No," and in this way for two years no one succeeded my master. And long time, at last
I became[someone comes inrestart].
PS: So after two years of confusion then you became the head of Rinso-in? Did that mean that you
were a Zen master? Did that make you a Zen master technically?
SR: No. I don't think so.
PS: When did you become a Zen master?
SR: At that time under my temple there were many famous teachers, rshis. Kishizawa-rshi when he
came to my temple he you knowsometimes he would sit for a while he was sitting here and I didn't
know he was there. There were many famous teachers. That is why I couldn't take over my master's
seat. Actually I didn't want to, to be. I didn't say so but in my heart, no. [All sorts of noise: moving
mike.]
[Side three.]
My boy is in the same position so I'm very sympathetic with him. So I rather wanted him to come to
America. Maybe that was too much after my temple. And if my boy leave my temple they would be
very furious.
PS: When did you become a Zen master?
SR: I became - after I have taken my master's position. For a long time I have to sometimes conduct
some big ceremony. And whenever we have shusoceremony or training period in branch temples, I
have to join them as they taking over my master's position. Then while I am doing this kind of thing
they officially acknowledged me as a Zen master. I received special robe.
PS: How old were you then?
SR: Maybe I was 40, 45 or so.
PS: 45
SR:
PS: So all these temples are sort of branch temples of - is Zouin-in a branch temple of Rinso-in?
SR: No, different - belong to Rinso-in - this is - in Shusuoka prefecture there are big temple who has
3000 branch temples, which has 3000. And Zoun-in is a grandson, you know(illegible word written).
This is Daito-in and here is Shoshin-ji, and Zoun-in like this - And Rinso-in and another temple branch
temple of this is Takawazon [?] And Rinso-in is branch temple of Takawazon. [In margin: Sekiun-in. Bill
[Lane?] says is funding temple.]
PS: And Zoun-in is branch temple of what?
SR: Branch temple of Soshin-ji. Rinso-in is branch temple of Seikun-in. And both Seiku-in and Soshin-ji -
PS: Are sons huh?
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SR: Sons.
PS: I see. Okay. Now From 1936 until 1942 you just were at Rinso-in then.
SR: Yes.
PS: This says from 1942 to 1947 you're the official teacher of the number 10th monastery of the Soto
sect.
SR: Umhum.
SR: What is it?
SR: That was near Shizuoka. This was newly established temple at that time, and because I was at that
time already a master, a Roshi -
PS: You were a roshi in 1942 then?
SR: Yes, already here was roshi. Oh yeah. Because I finished - my temple completely and I attended, I
acted as roshi so many times before, now headquarters acknowledged me, give me a title. ([Shiki
means roshi title.])
PS: I see. In 1942?
SR: On the occasion they -
PS: - appointed you this.
SR: Yes.
PS: So then you were 38 then.
SR: 38, maybe.
PS: You were born in 1904. You'd be 38.
SR: Joshike you know, it is not assistance, you know. It's a master, but not completely. What do you
call? Not vice or assistant.
PS: Maybe it's like in the army they have executive officer. They have captain of a ship and then
executive officer. Well, this is 1952. We're in 1942 now. So what did you do here? For five years you
had this number 10th monastery at Bansho Zenrin.
SR: Oh, Bansho Zenrin? What I meant was I had one more monastery.
PS: Here, yes. Takakusha.
SR: Takakusha.?
SR: Were you a Zen master here?
SR: Title of Zen master isn't necessary here or here.
PS: Here it is?
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SR: Here.
PS: I see. So that means that you were then 48.
SR: Yes. In thatI was dokan at one more monastery. At that time I became Executive Rshi or
something like that.
PS: I see. Here. In 1952.
SR: Because I have to establish this one and they need me to be here.
PS: Why did they need you?
SR: Why? I don't know exactly.
PS: They said they need you anyway. So what jobs were these? You were assigned to this monastery
which was at Bancho Zenrin. In 1947 they assigned you to Takakusha? Huh?
SR: Umhum.
PS: Teacher of Zen practice. This is bigger job than -
SR: This is bigger job - and this is some job just belonging to my only temple.
PS: I see. But this five year - this job ends in 1947 at Bancho Zenrin and the job at Takakusa, the job
here begins in 1952.
SR: Umhum.
PS: What happened between 1947 and 1952? What happened between this job and this job?
SR: (?) (page 13)
PS: I'm not certain. Is that 60 or 40?
SR: 1947 when this started.
PS: In 1952.
SR: In 1952. This is Bancho Zenrin. My friend was in here. At first my - Takashino Roshi was head of this
temple. And my friend took over his place and later Takashino Roshi wanted to come back to this
monastery again. So his assistant, assistant of Kansho-rshi, gave some pressure to my friend. And my
friend left Bancho Zenrin so I was not, I did, I was rather angry with Takashino-rshi too.
PS: So you left also?
SR: I left also, but even though I left Takashino-rshi was not so busy. So once in a while I have to help
him. Officially I left already here.
PS: It says here that in June 1947 you became this teacher of Zen practice. That's not the title for rshi,
huh?
SR: No.
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PS: Why did you wait until 1947? Why didn't you begin in 1936?
SR: At that time they had no rules for practice of laymen. This is more for laymen, Zen practice. And
headquarters provided some rules for them to establish some Zen practice. There was Zen practice for
laymen even before we have this kind of practice. Right before Zen Center.
PS: Right. Okay, so this was a new idea or something?
SR: Yes. New idea at that time, and still continue.
PS: In 1952 then you became the kansho of this place? What's that, Takazoan?
SR: Yes. Senmon sodo.
PS: Were you kansho there?
SR: No. I was docho.
PS: Were you ever kansho before?
SR: No, kansho is
PS: Rinzai term?
SR: Just one, you know. In Soto we have only one kansho. And thenwhat do you mean by kansho?
PS: What do you mean by kansho?
SR: Kansho is head of the whole
SR: Head of the whole of St?
SR: Umhum.
PS: I see. So it wasn't until they made you docho, Rshi, that you became rshi?
SR: Yeah. One is missing here. I was. When Niwa-rshi established, I don't know when, actually. If
those are all the records Chino Sensei has, then one is missing.
PS: When is that? 1947 or when? About when? After the war?
SR: Before the war. Before this one too - of course.
PS: Before the war?
SR: Maybe here.
PS: Well the war begins in -
SR: 1942. So, before this.
PS: I'm still a little confused, but apparently some time in the early forties, before the war, you
officially became the Roshi.
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SR: Officially yeah.
PS: Became the roshi of what master's temple? What was the master's name? The other one?
SR: Niwa-rshi.
PS: Niwa-rshi, who wanted to have a monastery at his temple. And his disciple actually acted as rshi,
as docho.
SR: Yes.
PS: But you were docho by name.
SR: By name. Once in a while when they had big ceremony I went there.
PS: Why couldn't Niwa-rshi be a docho?
SR: At that time? I have not much relationship between Niwa-rshi and I. Niwa-rshi himself was the
owner of, maybe the owner of the - we call him thejushoku. He's the head of the whole temple,
includes
PS: How old were you when you were married, Rshi?
SR: 31, or 32. 32 maybe.
PS: This is before your master died, though?
SR: After. Two years after.
PS: He died when you were 30. And then you became head of Rinso-in when you were 32.
SR: 32 and maybe 33 then.
PS: Because you were already head of Rinso-in when you were married?
SR: No, I wasn't married when I entered Rinso-in. And when I got married there was many discussion
whether I should get married or not.
PS: By who?
SR: By members. I was listening to them and some extremes then. If I married with someone, his wife
can stay at my home and I can go to his home whenever I want. That was too extreme.
PS: I don't understand roshiwhat do you mean?
SR: Someone said, if I get married, my wife could stay at "my home" and if the people doesn't like
temple life at my temple "she can stay my home." That was what someone said. So, at last, they
decided to allow my wife to enter my temple.
PS: I see. Did your master's wife live there?
SR: Oh yeah, for awhile, not for a long time. When he was quite old she stayed. We established some
custom you know, my master started something like that. But after he died, and especially because I
am so young, they criticized me to have a wife in temple.
15

PS: So your master did not choose your wife for you?
SR: No. My master's friend did and I have - family (?) . . . (page 16) for (more than 15 years. -[this not
on my tape])
PS: How do you mean with her?
SR: As my wife. At that time when I was 33, maybe 34, I got married with ex-wife.
PS: And you were married to her for 15 years before she died?
SR: Yeah. And I haven't wife for 7, 8 years, just before I come to America. One of the conditions to go
to America, you know, to be invited by Japanese members, was someone who has wife. And she was
head of the kindergarten.
PS: Which you had started?
SR: Umhum. So I decided to get married with her and came to America just almost at the same time.
PS: What did she think of that? Isn't that a strange way to get married roshi? That's strange for
Americans, maybe not for Japanese.
SR: Strange, yes. For usual person it is very strange, but for priest our marriage is very strange
sometime, which I don't like so much.
PS: How do you mean that?
SR: I want to do exactly what I want to do. (laughing)
PS: Well how do you - This is not for history, but before you asked Okusan, this Okusan, did you tell her
that you had to have a wife in America?
SR: Yeah.
PS: And would she like to marry you for that reason?
SR: No, not that reason - you know. After my wife died, I thought I may be married with that girl, but I
didn't determine to do that. But soon after my wife died there was some rumor you know. He will get
married with her, and he likes her so much. So I thought, that is true, so I have to do that. As they say -
- if that is true, so I decided to get married with her.
PS: With this one.
SR: Yeah, with this one. But even though I decided so, I was too busy and she was too busy to think
about it, you know. She was rather stubborn and was always meeting in his office, and I thought, that
is alright, maybe I should wait. While I was waiting I decided to go to America and one of the
conditions is, should be a married priest. So I you know decided to marry with her.
PS: Is Otohiro your son or Okusan's son?
SR: My boynot my wife's.
PS: And Okusan's husband died in the Second World War?
16

SR: Yes, yes.
PS: It says here, you said that a friend of your master picked your first wife. What does that mean? Did
you have some choice or?
SR: No. I had no one in my mind and I wasn't so sure about my married side, my ability to handle both
priest's side and a family side. It is very complicated, you know. I know pretty well that. So (end of side
three)
[this part not on my tape (I was not firm, but I was reluctant to take my wife. So I have no girl in my
mind as wife, but)]
(side four)
my master's friend thought it necessary for him to get one.
PS: So you said yes or?
SR: Yeah. I said before I see my ex-wife, I said yes. At that time he had somebody in his mind.
PS: Does that usually work out pretty well, Roshi, when you don't see the woman before you marry?
SR: Yeah, pretty well. It's amazing maybe for you. Although we do or don't like her, it is, I think it is
pretty superficial feeling, not so different, and it changes a lot.
PS: It seems to be very important to repair or build a temple for the Japanese. Is that so?
SR: Yeah. To me it was very important because our building was very old, and unless the priest has
good understanding of architecture he may make a mistake. So to me it was pretty important.
PS: I see. So you did two things. You built many new buildings at Zoun-in and you rebuilt the main
structure of Rinso-in.
SR: Yeah. Main structure or - many buildings I repaired many buildings. As it was in ancient times. That
was difficult part. It cost more money and it doesn't look so good. (laughter) So no one will agree with
me, with my idea.
PS: Crazy, huh?
SR: Crazy. That is why I felt I have to do it you know.
PS: How long did it take you to rebuild Rinso-in?
SR: Many years.
PS: The whole time that you were there?
SR: Yes. I was constantly studying and making effort.
PS: So you studied the old architecture?
SR: Not very much, but the architecture at that time, at the time when Rinso-in was built.
PS: How old is Rinso-in?
17

SR: Building is - oldest one, maybe 300.
PS: Looks like you were living at uh - was there another priest at Zoun-in all the time?
SR: Yes. My older brother was helping me in Zoun-in. Now he is succeeding my position there.
PS: Is he a Roshi, your brother?
SR: No. His boy is my son, my disciple, because he studied with me.
PS: Has he has . . . Is he an osho?
SR: Yes.
PS: So your first dharma heir in Japan is your own son or him? Do you have a first dharma heir?
SR: First dharma heir is my boy and - Shoko.
PS: Who's Shoko? Shoko is the son of the man who became the priest at Zoun-in?
SR: Yes.
PS: It seems, Roshi - also here's something else too we should discuss. (end of side four)
Side 2-A.
(side five)
(listening to chanting tape)
PS: We'll start with the farmers.
SR: There were many farmers who went to Manchuria to start some farming village or something like
that. And the world situation was very bad. For three months - when I left Japan it was just three
months before the war ended.
SR: So it was very bad then.
SR: So no one accepted our headquarters plan or appointment. So I thought maybe I may go and I left
Japan May 14 for Manchuria. And it took a pretty long time because our ship couldn't leave Hakata
port because of the B-29 bombers. And I stayed there one week waiting for the ship.
PS: And there was always bombing going on?
SR: Yeah. But anyway I could reach to Korea. Through Korea and I went to Manchuria visiting Japanese
farmers in various places. And when I reached to (in Japanese we say Harbin, I don't know). The big
city, capital city in Manchuria. They announced there were no ships bound for Japan, but I hardly could
come back to Japan. That is not for service but just as a priest I went to Manchuria.
PS: So how did you get back to Japan?
SR: Huh? Oh, I thought there must be some transportation or some you know way to get back to
Japan. Even though we have no ship someone must be going to Japan, and if I am waiting at Pusan I
thought I am quite sure I would have a chance to go back to Japan. And they didn't sell me ticket, but I
18

said even thoughmaybe so, but I will pay anyway for the ticket. Whether it is you know available or
not doesn't matter, so give me a ticket. And I came back by navy, not battleship, cruiser. They were
collecting some wounded soldiers and the ship arrived at not that port I expected, but at some small
port near that big port. And in the train, before I arrive at Sanroshi [?] which is small station, but
that'swhen we arrive at that small station, the conductor announced that if someone who is going to
Japan from Sanroshi should get off. So I got off at that station.
PS: This is in Manchuria?
SR: Korea. And as soon as I arrive at Sanroshin, pretty big port, the port when Chinese wanted to
attack Japan, Chinese army started that port. Because of that it is pretty famous port. And as soon as I
arrive at that port, big ship came, guarded by two cruisers, I could - by that by that - not cruiser, cruiser
was . . .
PS: Big ship. Destroyer is small ship maybe.
SR: Yeah. (uncertain). The ship we took was not so big, but it was protected by that big cruiser. So
without making any zigzag voyage, we come back straight Kyushu Island and arrive at some unknown
small port. And after I took express train. We were exposed several times by attack from air. And - it
was July 15, and August 15 everything was over.
PS: So you were in Manchuria and you took a boat to Korea?
SR: Yes.
SR: A cruiser to Korea?
SR: No. Just a steamboat.
PS: They told you in Manchuria there were no boats leaving from Korea.
SR: When I come back already those boats stopped.
PS: Looking at your history, it looks pretty ordinary. Is it ordinary sort of Zen teacher's history?
SR: Maybe so. Not so ordinary. I say priests in my age it will be. If I tell it to you in detail it is very kind
of noble.
PS: Oh, ho. That's what we never hear.
SR: But what I did actually is just not so different. But nowadays those who are brought up in temple
family succeed his father's position, that's all, you know. But my age was thirteen I left my father's
temple.
PS: Why did you leave your father's temple?
SR: My father took care of me too well, so I felt here I felt something family feeling always. (tapping
chest?)
PS: Where is here?
SR: Emotional feeling. Too much emotion. Too much love. And my teacher at grammar school told me
this kind of thing. He always said to me, to us, "You should be - (interrupted by visitors talking in
Japanese)
19

SR: - various problems -
PS: You caused various problems?
SR: Yes. For them and for me, too.
PS: How so?
SR: How? Before I take my master's temple, I have not much, I didn't cause any trouble. I was just
trying to study, but after I took over my master's temple my life started by some confusion or - if I
didn't take over his temple, you know, I have - I should be in Zoun-in. And I must have very calm, and I
could study more, but because I felt some - resistance you know the priest near Rinso-in, you know, I
determined to take over his place. And two years confusion and fight.
PS: Would you restate that last section? Because of a priest near Rinso-in -
SR: The priest near Rinso-in wanted - they have someone in their mind to be a head priest of Rinso-in,
and that man, under the name of someone, he wanted to act what they want to act, which is not so
good for the people or for the Soto school.
PS: Some sort of greed Roshi?
SR: Greed and fame and uh some - They themselves divided in many, you know, ways, and each one of
them has their own ambition, but - if they - one of them or if they do not get Rinso-in you know - they
were you know - they acted same way until they get Rinso-in. But after they get Rinso-in, Rinso-in will
get into confusion. I know that pretty well. So I determined to -
SR: To stop them huh?
SR: Yeah, to stop them. So I have very difficult time for two years with extraordinary things happen.
PS: Like what, Roshi?
SR: Like what? Eighty of my Rinso-in members left from Rinso-in and went to some other temple. With
me that is alright, but they accused my responsibility and they said, "If Rinso-in leave us such a bad
example, we will get rid of confusion. So that is your responsibility. Why you let them to go some other
temple? So if you say, 'I am sorry,' or if you ask for help we will get it, but you don't say 'I am sorry' or
you need help so we cannot help you.
SR: They said to you
R: Once a month we had a meeting and in each moment they accused my responsibility. But I said,
"wait two years." you know. In two years if the eighty of my members don't come back I will resign
Rinso-in. So wait - without criticizing me for two years. And they agreed with that. And in two years
almost all of them came back.
PS: What happened to the priest who was trying to take Rinso-in?
SR: He has his own temple, so he lost his ambition, that's all. And he himself did not want to be a head
priest of Rinso-in so much, but some ambitious people around him -
PS: Lay people?
SR: No, priests, mostly priests and some influential lay people.
20

(Mitsu comes in and she and Suzuki talk sort of sharply with each otherand Peter asks something.
Suzuki has some appointment or obligation or talk or something.)
PS: Do you think it would be interesting Roshi for the students to know - is it best to give your
biography very simple?
SR: Maybe so.
SR: Just facts? It doesn't make much sense.
SR: It doesn't make much sense, I'm afraid, you know, until - If they don't understand what is - what
kind of thing is going on (phone call - horrible background noise starts) - I don't know what to do with
some things.
PS: Yeah I'm trying to think what I do with it. How much I should put into the history. It's interesting to
your students, but maybe -
SR: No. Maybe for someone who is not a student. I don't know. to announce to students[?]
SR: I know. So maybe I should just -
SR: Because of this kind of experience I decided to come to America. No interesting thing in it. Just
talking to you. (I'm not interested in this kind of thing. This is record. Just confusion.[?who put this in?]
So my history, my life in Japan was spent to fight, to struggle.
PS: Did you always win the struggles?
SR: Yeah. But it is not so. It is better to surrender. If I know American life earlier, I was sayonara a long
time ago. Like this, you know. (some gesture).
PS: It seems like many people are exiled to America. That some priests come to America as exiles - are
punished by being sent to America. They could have punished you a long time ago.
SR: Yes. Fortunately I knew how to handle them lot of times. Makes (more difficulties[?]circles[?].
PS: Too smart again.
SR: I won always, that was -
PS: Did you ever feel vain about it or are - ?
SR: No, no. I don't feel vain - just like, because of I am very impatient and angry I became very patient
in order to win fights and so on. Hence I always started to fight because of my impatience. And once I
start to fight I should be very patient or else I'll lose that fight - so it is not - (dangerous(?) - endless?
PS: In Western astrology your birth [?]sign means you should be very stubborn. But your students
don't understand because you don't seem stubborn to them. - typical for your birth sign.
SR: Yes. I am very impatient, that is true.
PS: But Americans are so much more impatient than you. You seem very patient. Your students are -
Japanese couldn't live with them.
21

SR: Hmm. I may be patient with American people even before I came to America. Recently I feel in that
way very much. It may have something to do with past lives.
PS: And all your students think that in their past lives they were Japanese. Except me. I don't think so. -
Chinese or Japanese.
SR: Maybe so. I don't know. This is big job. I'm, not interested in this kind of thing. I have no record,
accurate record of my life. -
PS: Is there any meaning at all in having something about you in the Wind Bell?
SR: This sort of thing?
PS: Some sort of history, some sort of biography, not too elaborate, but some sort. Not a book though.
Maybe about four or five pages? Is that a mistake?
SR: Four or five!
PS: How much do you think? One? Half a page? A paragraph? One sentence? Suzuki Roshi biography:
"I do not think much of this sort of thing and have not kept any records." End biography. You have the
right to decide. This is your direct concern. How do you feel about this?
SR: I don't find answer to this kind of question my teacher (teaching) (in this life?[I don't hear that]
SR: Neither do I.
SR: If you see my record in this way, everything will be lost.
PS: Let me ask you a question Roshi. When you were forced to be political in your - when your (year?)
30's and 40's, did you have many serious students? Was it possible?
SR: What do you mean?
PS: Well, when you had to have fights, when you had to have arguments
SR: Yes. I have young students who have same feelings. Like they did not participate in some mistaken
thinking. But my youngest students, mostly in high school were very kind, helped a lot (encouraged
me), and they, many of them, came to me because I have the same feelings. Most of them were not
priests but students. And at that time Japan was involved in some kind of wrong idea about strength
and power, some strange form, so that is another thing to tell to you
(end of side five) (radical machine noise till this point)
(end of tape)
(side six)
SR: In the thirties and the forties, Japan was involved in some strange - what did you say, power or?
SR: . . . some strange pride or confidence, confidence in power, some strange idea of nationalism.
PS: And you did not feel good about this?
22

SR: No. What they say is very strange, you know. By television, by lecture, in various ways they tried to
lead people in strange directions. And they didn't understand - they didn't try to understand actual
realistic situations or power of Japan. Although I didn't know anything about America or other
countries, I thought how powerful are they or how weak they all are, I didn't know, but I had some
confidence in human nature. Human nature is the same wherever we go. So they called American
people like beasts or devils. I always said beasts or devils is not only Japanese [does he mean
American?] people. We need big beasts or demons - those who have that kind of idea about some
other type may be our enemy or demon or devil. I always said to them. And during the war they were
afraid of very much American people who may land sooner or later in Japan island. But I was not so
afraid of them. They are also human beings. Nothing will happen if we surrender. Those who don't
want to surrender may die, and if they survive nothing will happen to them. But they burned their
personal record or various records in city hall. They started to burn it and they started to destroy the
memorial tower, memorial tombstone of the unknown soldiers. But why do you do that? It is quite
natural to have memorial stone for the people who sacrificed their lives for their own country. Nothing
wrong with it. If I explain - if we explain in that way why we have those tombstones, they may
understand what our point of view is.
PS: Oh I see. They thought that the Americans would destroy all the graves huh?.
SR: Grave, and if we have records in city hall.
PS: Americans would destroy that too.
SR: Americans search for each person to kill them or something. Very curious idea.
PS: Were you ever criticized, Roshi, for your sort of pacifistic views?
SR: I - Yeah, I was, but I didn't act officially. At my temple, in my lectures or when students come, I
talked about this kind of thing always, and even during the time when the war was almost finished.
There still be some power or some courage to sacrifice their life to Japan. But I thought, that sacrifice is
not for Japan, but for some - know wrong i- someone who has wrong idea, who has some leadership
which be by big misunderstanding. So I - uh when they decided to destroy the big memorial stone for
the unknown soldiers, I told them to carry it to my temple. I said to them I will protect it as long as I'm
alive and as long as I'm here I will protect it, and I will take all the responsibility for that, I am sure.
American people who will make any damage to this memorial stone.
PS: I'm a little worried, Roshi, if they were - not worried, I'm a little confused. If they were going to,
who was trying, they thought the Americans would do what to the stone?
SR: Destroy the stone.
PS: So the Japanese were going to destroy it first?
SR: Yeah. Destroy the first. And you know, they -
PS: Doesn't make sense, Roshi.
SR: Doesn't make sense, yeah - but they were so afraid of what they had been doing, afraid to be
responsible for it.
PS: But on unknown soldiers you can't tell.
23

SR: But if we have still the tombstone, worshipping them, then those who have been worshipping
them will be punished or something. So no one will want to take responsibility for that. But - and if
they destroy it, American people will feel very good for that purpose.
PS: What did you think of the atomic bomb, Roshi? The first time.
SR: The first time?
SR: Yeah, or you know, when uh - right before surrender.
SR: That was something you know which I haven't no idea of it you know, and how powerful it was I
didn't know. And even when I heard of it I couldn't trust it, that it was so powerful and that kind of
thing will happen. But most Japanese people, including memost Japanese peopleII haven't
have no idea that thing would happen. But most Japanese people afraid of - too much fear about their
life, you know, when they lost war. So in comparison to that atomic bomb uh was not so reasonable
cause so much fear. I think most of them must have thought, anyway we will not live (be so?) so long -
so long, maybe a good way to finish our life. They have no idea of righteousness, or humanity, or those
problems is not al- [partial word]not already a top question. And II thoughtif it may be very
silly very foolish for us if we don't surrender right now. If we surrender they will stop doing such things.
So best way may be to surrender. If they don't then that is uh all over, everything.
PS: What happened when the Yaizu fishermen were killed by the atomic fallout? [?]
SR: Most of them, I think, accused the American people, you know, because of the viewpoint of
righteousness, but that righteousness is very superficial righteousness you know. TheyI think this
kind of feeling is the feeling we have about Okinawa problem you know. They talk about Okinawa in
various way, but no actual feeling is in it. It is just game, you know, political.
PS: Someone once said that you marched in a protest against something -
SR: Umhum.
SR: - at some point. What was that, Roshi?
SR: (long sigh)
SR: When was that or what was that all about?
SR: It was the time when Peace Corps[?] - uh not Peace Corps -
SR: Atomic submarine?
SR: Yeah. That was
SR: No, that's not it either probably. What was it Roshi? I don't want to force you.
SR: Hmm?
SR: Was it that? An atomic submarine or - ?
SR: Atomic submarine. At that time peace work, you know, and when atomic submarine wanted to
come to San Francisco and they had big demonstration. That is you know - uh - peace uh desire to
express desire strong desire to against war. (phone) That is why I joined.
24

PS: Someone mentioned that you once marched in a demonstration in Japan ever. Is that true?
SR: Yeah, I did.
PS: What was that for?
SR: That was after the war finished you know. And before the war I was much more strong feeling
against war, so before the government started some organization to organize civilians against war - oh
no, against America you know, I started, I organized young men in my area to have right understanding
of situation of Japan at that time and to have more, to invite good people who have actually
participating some important activity in government in various area. I invited them and - we invited
them to ask question until we understand them, you know. So later government organized some - with
some purpose with the purpose to organize people to fight completely with America, but my purpose
was to prevent - not war you know, but to prevent people who may have one-sided view in the
situation of Japan, or in understanding of ourselves and human nature. We, I started to, I wanted to, I -
not big - I haven't not big purpose for my group, but I didn't want my friends to be involved in that kind
nationalism which may destroy our Japan completely, which is more dangerous than war. We lost
completely, you know, because of lack of our understanding.
PS: And wasn't this considered a very unique thing to do?
SR: Yeah. At that time.
PS: Did you get in trouble? Did you get in trouble for it?
SR: Yeah, I got into various troubles.
PS: What happened?
SR: What happened? At length it helped, you know, but at first I was very much criticized. But what I
say - I was saying right and enough people agreed with me so they decided to utilize me to help their
you know - to help their idea of leading people. And they appointed me to be a head of the new
organization, which was started by government, but I resigned. I accepted once, you know, and next
day I resigned from it.
PS: Oh but oh this was when there was some conflict, I mean this is before uh -
SR: Before the war.
SR: Before the militarists took over.
SR: Yeah.
SR: Before the so - before the army took over.
SR: Yeah.
PS: What happened when the army took over?
SR: When the army took over my voice was not loud enough, you know.
PS: But the army didn't come after your voice?

25

SR: No. It was not so bad. But uh that was why I think I didn't got uh - I didn't uh - I wasn't drafted you
know.
SR: Oh I see.
SR: They marked me - on my name maybe there was some special mark. He's dangerous, you know,
and no reason to kill him or you know - I was not so big, but if he joined army or something what he
will say will affect them - the courage you know of the army.
PS: Were there many priests like you who were pacifists?
SR: Hmm?
SR: Were there many priests like you who were pacifists?
SR: They didn't take any stand. And that time was after the Second World War over
Yvonne Rand: You want to come back on the second? The second of October?
SR: Yeah.
Yvonne: Is that early enough?
SR: Yeah.
PS: You know something Roshi, your experiences like this would be very interesting to the students.
SR: Oh.
SR: Don't you think so?
SR: I think so.
PS: Maybe you could lecture on this tonight.
SR: (giggle) Oh, I think -
SR: I think it's good if Zen is not for war in America -
SR: Umhm, umhm.
SR: And you never speak about it. Maybe you have a reason for that.
SR: No. [Yeah, no? Sounds like both at different speeds but I think it's "no."]
SR: But if you don't have a strong reason, I think it's moral, it's ethically proper to speak against war.
SR: Uh-huh.
SR: And (laugh) I shouldn't do this - but anyway you know the students would like to know your
feelings about it.
SR: I care more about the way of thinking.
26

PS: I know, than the actual killing.
SR: Actual killing and - not actual killing, but the fundamental way of thinking which will cause big war.
That is why I didn't like nationalists in Japan. Their view if very one-sided and very unrealistic. And they
accuse some other's fault without knowing what they are doing, they actually creating problem.
PS: Maybe this is why the government did not persecute you, because you were approaching the
problem from religious point of view.
SR: Yeah. And yeah
SR: Not as a political.
SR: No.
SR: Not political.
SR: Not political.
SR: No.
SR: And uh afterafter the world war I was not purged. I have no record of fighting with military war.
(phone) I have many printed matters expressing my feelings.
SR: Many what matters?
SR: Many things about the - what should be the policy, what kind of danger we have right now, you
know, in the nation, something like that. But most of it is - may be difficult to understand for people. It
is not - I didn't say anything about war or anything, but if we neglect to understand the situation of
Japan more clearly and if we understand things just by paper you know, we will lose the real picture of
Japan. So what I put the emphasis on is to study more about what everyone is doing in his country, in
army or in other uh - as uh - in political world. I was very much interested in that kind of thing when I
was young.
PS: I see. This is before the war or after the war now?
SR: Before the war.
PS: You said after the war they did not purge you?
SR: Because of this kind of anti-war
PS: Oh, were most priests purged?
SR: Yes. Most priests who joined the army.
PS: Lost their prop- [partial word]temple?
SR: No.
SR: Put in jail or
SR: They couldn't join some educational program or some official things, on education or city hall. But I
wasn't purged. They tried to purge me, but I showed them
27

PS: Who was "they," the American soldiers in Yaizu?
SR: No, the government, the new government.
SR: Oh, the new government, yeah I see.
SR: So, they didn't - they had no reason to purge me.
PS: Did Rinso-in lose any land? Most temples lost land. Rinso-in lost land toomuch of it, most of it?
SR: Most of it.
SR: How much, Roshi?
SR: Mmm -
SR: You don't know in American terms I guess.
SR: Yeah. Most of it. Except, you know, mountain. If it is some paddy field or some place where you
can cultivate - we offernowe should sell it to government.
PS: Did you think that was a good idea?
SR: Maybe. I thought, if we don't do that, I did think to force that to force that kind of thing to temple
is not good idea, but to have not much land, you know, for anybody at once (?)
PS: I had heard, Roshi, I don't know where, somewhere, that before the war many of the Zen temples
were very rich and some of the priests were very corrupt and many priests kept concubines. Is that
true? Particularly Rinzai temples. This is not for history. I'm just kind a curious.
SR: Concubines, no. Not so many temples were so rich, you know, even before the war. Most of the
temples were very poor. But after the war (small laugh) they lost everything and they started to work
in city hall or as a teacher in various ways and they became more and more rich. (Peter laughs)in
America butI'm afraid Japanese people may have too much confidence in their activity again, you
know.
SR: Right now.
SR: Right now, more and more - without knowing you know why they become so rich or you know -
PS: This is like second Meiji Period.
SR: Second Meiji, yeah.
SR: (chuckle) (tape starts up again) How many people, about 200 people in your group? But the
Japanese did do nothing violent in that sort of thing. That's very calm and quiet, huh?
SR: Yeah, calm and quiet.
SR: Like discussion group, philosophical discussion group [from here, not on my tape] rather than
revolutionaries.
SR: Yes. Very calm and quiet.
28

PS: It seems, Roshi, that the state of Japan in the thirties and forties limited you.

Interview of Suzuki-rshi by Peter Schneider
Circa 1969
Entered onto disk by David Chadwick
Revised by Bill Redican 9/01

P: When did Caucasians begin sitting at Soko-ji?
S: Maybe one month after my arrival.
P: When did you arrive?
S: May 23, 1959.
P: You came by yourself?
S: Yes, by airplane. But at that time I was not appointed to this temple. I came here as assistant to
Tobase. Soon after I accepted, they changed the situation.
P: Was he living in Japan then or in San Francisco?
S: He, Tobase, was at that time in Japan. So I was invited to this temple, because he started editor (?)
of St School. So they suggested ... and as he moved the headquarters, he wanted to live here. My
idea was that I wanted at that time to work on propagating our way.
P: With Caucasians? Japanese?
S: Maybe with Caucasians. In my mind I did say so. My idea was more emphasis on Caucasians, since
before they did not work with Caucasians so much. And headquarters wanted to work with
Caucasians.
P: Why did they pick you?
S: (Confused politically) Some of them supported Bishop _______, some of them didn't ...
management of this temple, some people wanted him to be Bishop and some wanted him more ... to
this temple. And the members were divided in two and he was involved in that.
P: What happened to headquarters in San Francisco?
S: Soon (after) my arrival, headquarters voted to take care . . . but of course I refused because I'm not
Bishop, just to take care of business of headquarters. Too much. At that time Tobase's wife was still
here, so the idea was for his wife to take care of actual business and they wanted me to be a Soto
Bishop. Because I didn't know the situation in America so well. He actually couldn't come back because
of the confusion that was. And I was just here taking care of this temple.
29

At that time Dick (Derek?), McNeil, and Joanne Kogert (Kyger?). She came about six months after.
Beermanhis wife came when they first came here to practice. McNeil sat here and he went to Japan
the next year.
P: When did you sit?
S: In the morning at 5:30, at the same time. At that time we had benches downstairs, full of old
benches, so they had to sit on two benches together, so that they could sit. For more than one year
they sat that way. Five or six of them. That was 1960. In 1961 we had many students, and as they gave
me some money I asked them to take care of that money and also to take care of some expenses ...
some equipment (?). Naturally we got more and more money. I thought it must be better to have
some organization to take care of all business. That is why the organization came about. We discussed
names that would be appropriate and at last decided to call it Zen Center. This was in l961, but it took
all of one year to get permission from the state.
The mats were put in the zend in 1961. They took care of it themselves. There were more than fifteen
people sitting in 1961.
P: Who were the first people after Bill McNeil and his wife?
S: Jean, David Warez (?), Betty Warren, Della, Baker in 1961. In 1960 ... and Bob Hense. They were
people who were studying Oriental religion. At that time Dr. Kato was here. He had been living here
before I came. Bishop Tobase had invited him. (Kazemitsu Kato)
P: How did you choose to come to America?
S: Bishop Tobase asked headquarters to send someone to help him and they couldn't find anyone
because maybe the position they would have here in America was not so solvent (as to whether he
was resident, priest, assistant, or ...). But I didn't mind that kind of situation. My idea of coming was to
turn a new leaf for myself and for the St way of propagating religion in America. That was rather
ambitious.
In Japan I was resident priest of Rinso-in temple of one monastery in Shizuoka-ken in Japan. I was
teacher at the monastery. There were nine teachers. They didn't appoint any head teacher. Yeah, I was
head teacher. Maybe 30 students. Nean (?)-rshi was the founder. He was maybe 65 or 66. Soon after
he died, there was a celebration for his 61st birthday.
(Story of how his friend talked him into coming to America.)
So at that time actually this temple was in confusion and the resident priest was Tobase. He was
Bishop of Amana (?) and no one knew what to do, it seemed. So it seemed like a good idea to send
someone who could be a Bishop. Anyway, they wanted to send someone. Not many people wanted to
come, or maybe people wanted to come but headquarters didn't accept them. Headquarters
appointed several people but they didn't accept the position. My friend, who was director, didn't know
what to do, and he said jokingly, "Why don't you go?" I have not much responsibility for the confusion.
I did not cause the confusion and I shall be free from it. ... If I cannot help ... so maybe I should come .
P: More freedom than you had in Japan?
S: No, more freedom if I were in some certain part of conscience (?) and I was invited to ... I had made
responsibility.
30

Anyway, this temple was confusion. I was ... at that time this temple would give me more freedom.
And in one month my friend came (again) I said to him I will go.
P: He was still kidding?
S: Yes. When I said I'd go, he was amazed.
P: Did he want you to go?
S: Not so much, no, because he felt some responsibility for my temple and we are quite near him and
the priests I know and also the priests he is very much works with (?). He is bishop now. Dick met him
already. He speaks no English.
I learned most of my English at college, Komazawa. When I was young I wanted to go abroad anyway,
but my master wouldn't allow it. I guess he wanted me to take care of his temple.
P: Where did you want to go? To America or somewhere else?
S: I had no preference of where. Maybe America. There is not so much chance to go to some other
country. At least I wanted to go to Hokkaido. It was difficult to change. It is very bad, for instance, if I
come to San Francisco and move again somewhere else without doing much ... if I fulfill some
responsibility here, then we feel to move somewhere; but without doing anything, to move
somewhere else is not so good. So we must stay at our temples.
P: Do you have much responsibility at your temple? Do you have many disciples in Japan?
S: More than ten, but they are not dharma disciples.
P: So you do not have a dharma disciple?
Side 2
P: How long did you plan to stay in America when you first came?
S: I had no idea, but I said to them I'll come back in three years, but actually in my mind I'll stay pretty
long. You see, I had no stable position when I accepted, so it meant that for one or two years I would
be voluntary priest until I meet someone to help me.
P: Did you ever go to Los Angeles that way?
S: No.
Okusan came to America three years later, 1962. I did not return to Japan during those years. My
friend went back to send my wife. She was teaching and managing two kindergartens.
P: Who, Yaesu?
S: I wanted my friend to help her get out of the kindergarten.
P: When did Otohiro come?
S: 1962, with her.
P: How long did she think she was going to stay?
31

S: She promised to bring me back to Japan in three years more. She promised kindergarten and my
congregation. When I decided not to return to Japan even after the second three years I had to resign,
and fortunately they wanted my boy to be my successor. That is very good. (Then he says something
that is "not so good" or maybe it's that same thing.)
P: Did you ever think, when you had only a few students, of how much you wanted to see Zen Center
grow? Did you have any plans for Zen Center?
S: No, I haven't. But I had an idea. That idea was, when I was asked to manage the Bishop's business, I
asked headquarters to send some good Zen master, at least like Bishop Hamiyama (?).
P: Who was he?
S: He wouldn't leave Japan (?). Or someone like him was necessary. So I wanted to have someone sent
who (can be famous?) (good Zen master?) (archbishop?). So that is why Yamada-rshi came.
P: How long did he stay?
S: He stayed four years. He came in 1961 and returned in 1965. And then Bishop Sumi came three
years ago. And now Bishop Yamada is the assistant archbishop at Eihei-ji. So that means he must
become archbishop of Eihei-ji. And nowadays our headquarters ... the Japanese. They don't
understand the situation so well.
P: You say you had a plan?
S: To set up some educational program for exchanging students and to have some school-like system
here, and the head could be some responsible Bishop like (?) Sumi-rshi and I can help (?).
P: And this never happened.
S: Never. But this was actually why Yamada-rshi came. After he came he didn't allow me to organize
that school. Instead he wanted to have a school at Los Angeles. Maybe he wanted to build it by
himself.
P: Did he ever have a school?
S: He tried but he didn't. And Maezumi-sensei was there. And it was only Maezumi who helped
Caucasian people. It is interesting ... Yamada-rshi was not successful. I knew that and I told him it
would be much better to do it here, but he didn't agree with me. I asked him to allow me to open Zen
Center ... (lost) ... another idea was to have monastery, not only school. My idea was not so big as
Tassajara. Some monastery in Santa Cruz mountains I thought. And we actually saw many places. We
were offered several placesnot places, names.
P: How do you mean names?
S: Without (?) property with a clear title. You may have a clear title.... As long as don't have title I
cannot do anything . One was in the Valley of the Moon in Sonoma, one hour from here, beautiful
place, almost right in the center of the town. And another was Russian River. The third was Durand
Keefer's offer? I don't know. He showed me many. He said you can have this place, you can have this
one, this one. Too many.
P: So why did you decide to pick Tassajara?
32

S: Before I saw it I thought it was too far away from here. I had no idea of the site of the place. When
Dick introduced me to the place I thought in the car it is too far away from Monterey. Where's
Tassajara? I was tired out but as soon as I came to the top of the mountain I was fascinated. And it is
quite distant and the road is wild (?), and it is well-protected, and no one will ... and the hot springs is
beautiful. It is maybe too ... but ....
P: But first you were going to buy the Horse Pasture?
S: And that didn't have the creek or the hot springs. But my idea was already Tassajara. You know it
doesn't need anything, not much, just to own Horse Pasture: to have that place means some day we'll
have Tassajara.
P: Did Dick know that?
S: Yes, of course. He is more ambitious.
P: Did you think Tassajara would grow so much?
S: No. I actually wondered whether Dick could raise money so quickly. I thought we will have pretty
much difficulties in raising money.
P: Do you think it is easier for students to practice now than it was back in 1959? Are there differences
in students? Do you notice differences in Americans in ten years?
S: Yes. Before the students were ones who were interested in Japanese culture or Oriental culture.
And next came beatnik type people interested in Zen, as Alan says, square Zen.
P: Beat Zen?
S: At that time it was may square Zen. Alan started being interested in beat Zen, and the people who
basically (studied) the beatnik way and view of life, had some kind of interest ... at that time.
Nowadays there are more young generation ... because of war in Vietnam, changed their life ... I
cannot say serious, but they have more direct discrimination of the modern civilization. I think that is
why we have so many students, young students. They are not interested in any other ways but Zen.
Some of them are interested in some Vedanta school or some Indian sect . . . most of the young ones
are interested more in Zen. I think so. I think that is one reason why we have so many young students.
P: And so it'd be easier for the newer students. They do not want to be beatniks, they don't want to be
scholars either. They just want to be Zen students.
S: Yes. I think so.
P: What about hippies then?
S: Hippies need more help ... intellectually. They are too young. Anyway they have to study something.
In this sense they want some help.
P: To go back. What was your plan when the school did not work out?
S: I thought, anyway, when Bishop Yamada decided to organize a school there I thought he will not be
successful. Anyway, if we practice in our way with students, that would be good enough.
P: You felt you didn't need a school anymore.
33

S: We don't have a school here actually. But we are applying to exchange students and to invite some
teachers to Tassajara.
P: Why do you want to exchange students?
S: My original motivation to come to America was not only to propagate Zen in America, but also to
improve Zen in Japan too. They are sleeping. So if Tassajara is very successful, and if they know how
sincere we are, they may think they should even exchange. They will see what we are doing here
naturally be aroused (?) perhaps (?) they will be more sincere.
P: So you decided to have the school because most of your first students were scholars. You thought
that to become Zen students you'd have to give them somethingsome candy? Candy for the mind?
S: Not candy. Anyway, all that we are doing is candy. Everything . . . candy is the most important food,
actually.
P: I don't understand. Why is candy the most important thing?
S: Because that is purposenot purpose of Zenthe first principle without any actual activity doesn't
mean anything. Sambhogakya is the body of bliss. And that's candy. May not candy but food.
P: Should we say anything about the Japanese becoming one people again? In other words, not having
split any more? Having two parties become one.
S: Yes. That is not . . . that is confusion . . . in two party. One party is not so good. If they can manage
the two party system as you do it. But Japanese people are too independent . . .not so good . . .
Doubt. Doubt means . . . I like the word doubt. They'll not doubt other things (?) They're very serious
and they're not so strong in this instance (?). Anyway, Japan is so small.
P: When did the Wind Bell begin? Who started the Wind Bell?
Beginning of Tape 2
P: ... during the past eight years?
S: First of all I had plenty of time to spend with students. Sometimes to go to museum. Sometime to
movieto restaurant, because I was around here and we had not many students, so we had a very
good time. At the same time I didn't want Zen Center to be a kind of social group. So I tried to refrain
from that kind of social activity. I wanted to devote ourselves just to Zen practice. Not much eating or
seeing movies, etc. Graham was agreed with my idea of not to be a social club. Dick was mostly
interested in understanding of thought of Zen. He was interested in more study. Graham was more
interested in zazen practice. First Graham didn't like Christian type of rituals, and after he came to Zen
Center he was very interested in his practice and rituals. Bishop Yamada like him very muchthe way
he sit, the way the practice. For instance, when he sat he brushed his feet off.
P: When we began to sit, back in 1962, when I came, maybe because of Graham, the zendo was very
stern. It was very hard to move. It was very important not to move. Now with more people it's not so
stern as it used to be. Have you noticed that change?
S: ... because of Graham? He never moved. He was like a Japanese student. They were not so young
students at that time. Dick, Jean, Roger. He was maybe the youngest.
34

P: Who cooked for you?
S: Myself. If I didn't want to I visited some Japanese member's home, and sometimes a student's. But
the way they cooked was not so appropriate for me. First of all it was too much food. And the food
itselfyou like more sour? Fruits and sour taste. I think that is because you eat meat. For a Japanese,
your taste is too sour. For instance, you like pineapple very much but to me it is too sour. Mostly
Evelyn and Della and Betty and some other students cooked. Sometimes Jean buy something for me,
but it would be too sour for me.
P: . . . every night?
S: No, every morning after zazen. At nighttime I cooked by myself. At that time we wouldn't sit.
P: I think you were sitting in the evenings when I was here, Rshi.
When was the first one-day sesshin?
S: 1962 (?). After we got the mats. I remember the first week sesshin was 1962 also. August 1962. Six-
day sesshin.
P: When you first came did you think Caucasian students would be able to sit long periods?
S: Yes I thought so, because when I was in Japan I knew some Caucasians who were sitting. She gave
me some confidence (?) (English woman?) ... possible for Caucasians to understand Zen and to practice
Zen.
P: When you first came here Americans did not think so did they? Did you experience that? That
people felt that Americans could not study Zen? Did people tell you that often?
S: No, because they were the people who came to sit and study, they didn't. But most young Zen (?)
people, they .... But I had thought that ...
P: Were there some Caucasian students with Tobase who lived here before you left?
S: I heard many names of Tobase's students but they didn't appear. ... Sasaki .... But since Tobase was
here he came to help him.
P: After Sasaki died?
S: Yes.
P: He was ordained by ...
S: Yes, by Sasaki, another SasakiSt Sasaki from Japan. He was the head of the headquarters at that
time. He had a yellow robe.
P: How about Iru Price. Was he a student?
S: No, I don't think so.
P: He was a St priest, though. Ordained.
S: Yes, he was ordained in Japan.
35

P: So all of the students who came to you had never studied Zen with a teacher before. So much.
S: Yes. Claude had with Tobase. But Claude came later.
P: How did Betty Warren, Della Goertz, and Jean Ross find out about you?
S: Jean talked about it. She came often. She first came to study Asian thingsat the Asian Academy to
study Oriental things. Kazemitsu came here.
P: And Betty?
S: I don't know ... yes, I think so.
P: And Della?
S: Betty and Della were good friends. So maybe Della brought her here.
P: How about Graham? How did he find Zen Center?
S: I don't know how. Did Dick know him?
P: I don't think so. Not until afterwards. I think Graham was here before Dick by a little bit. Would you
notice when a new student came every day?
S: Yes. At that time there was a very small number.
P: How did they react when you had them begin to chant in Japanese?
S: I don't know. I was always doing the same thing anyway even before they came. Bowing three times,
not nine times. I don't remember when I changed from three bows to nine.
P: You must have felt some reason for changing.
S: I thought you want more practice than we ... Japanese want. That is what I said then. Bow is very
good practice, and after sitting we feel very good.
P: Why didn't you have sesshins right after 1959?
S: Because we weren't so many, just two or three people. Ru (?), McNeil, and Bill McNeil, Bob Hense.
Another monk (?) And later Charles Given came and Bob Karr (?) came and Connie ... (?) And from
Fields Book Store and her friend Woods ... (?). Joanne (?) Kyger came in maybe 1960.
P: There are not so many of the old students here, particularly the men students. Why do you think
that is true?
S: The reason is on their side because they changed their residence. For instance Bob went to Chicago.
Charles Gilman is still in Oakland, but he said "My purpose of coming to you is to know something from
you and I feel you more friend than teacher." And he wanted me to serve tea in tea ceremony way or
something like that. And he wanted me to see his cousin in some Japanese style. That was his way. But
when he started Berkeley zendo he offered us his house for zendo. He has practiced more than six
months at his home. And Bob Karr, he is interested in Japanese things and he helps Japanese students
who come to San Francisco to study at City College.
I think only Graham Petchey or Dick Baker who are interested in zazen itself stay.
36

P: How about Bill Kwong?
S: I understand his way of life. He is more Japanese than Chinese. His practice is maybe not so good
because he sleeps a lot. Too much. I don't think he is a good Zen student. But he takes care of things
very sincerely and he is very constant. He doesn't change. And he doesn't mind what sort of thing we
have at Zen Center. Anyway, he is helping us. So I understand his way, so I don't mind. I don't worry
about him even though he doesn't come it is alright with me and with him too. He's a very good
student in that way.
P: How can someone help from not sleeping much?
S: If he sleeps at night he will be alright. But those who sleep in zazen are mostly people who sit up late
and whose determination is not so strong.
P: And Philip came in 1961 also?
S: Yes.
P: Do so many students come and go in Japan also?
S: My students stayed pretty well in Japan. They are not forming any one group, but whenever I go to
Japan immediately they come and they always keep in contact with each other. Even so, not all of
them staymaybe 70. Two or three out of ten. Of course they have some reason. It is quite difficult to
be always in one group. They are doing pretty well. In my temple the group I started is still practicing
under my friend's instruction.
P: How much do they practice? Do they sit every day?
S: No. They come to the temple twice a month and usually they sit at home. When I was there they
had more chance to come to my temple, but not of course they have new membersthere may be
thirty of them or more. The other people who are helping ... my boy.
P: How did Los Altos get started?
S: First of all, do you know Hal Ford? I conducted his marriage ceremony at Los Altos, and I saw his
wife's home, and I thought there might be some place to sit in this area, and I liked the surroundings of
Los Altos. I thought with Stanford there must be some who are interested in Zen. So I discussed with
Tim Brackett. And he suggested that we sit in one of their dormitories, so I started a Zen group in Tim's
dormitory. Then we moved to Margaret Hall's and sat for maybe six months. And then Marian offered
her house. . . . (one word lost) . . . you laugh . . . don't you stop (?).
P: Did you once have nyushinshiki ceremony with thirty students? What is that?
S: That was to give dokusan and dharma ji nets (?). Claude asked me to have it in that Tassajara
training period, but it was not possible because we have to make all ... the cards ... forty dharma
initiates (?) that is a big job. I couldn't do it.
P: So in 1962 you made lay Buddhist students.
S: Ordained thirty lay students. Since then I ordained Trudy, three months ago.
P: How many monks have you ordained? Caucasian monks?
37

S: McNeil, Bob, Jean supposed to be, but I don't have official record. I didn't report to headquarters ...
The reason was I asked her to have ceremony by archbishop of Eihei-ji because she was going, and I
was very busy at that time and it was rather difficult situation to ordain just Jean here, so anyway she
was ordained there, but the archbishop doesn't take any disciple, he just ordains on behalf of me.
Graham, Dick, Philip, Ron Browning, and Joyce. That's all.
P: Claude wanted me to ask you about your theory of having a no-temple.
S: The theory of having no-temple is actually Rev. Senzaki's idea. Not only his. We are that kind of
thought. To manage temple or to build a big temple is not the only way to be sincere in our practice.
Sometimes just helping people, encouraging peoplesome superficial way and there is not much
understanding by having just a temple. And as you see there are big parties at the temple and keeping
the priests busy taking care of those social affairs. That is not so good. So if we have no-temple, it is
not necessary to take care of those social things. We can devote ourselves just to practice and
propagate teaching.
P: So you tried to keep Zen Center for lay students mostly?
S: Yes. I was more interested in having sincere lay students rather than monks.
P: Why?
S: As soon as you have a titlemonk, priest, etc.you become involved in some idea of rank or
position or something like that. That is not always so good. It is anyway easier to practice without that
kind of idea, and there is not much difference between laymen's life and priest's life nowadays. Very
close. We don't know which is which. But as we are, maybe it is time to have some more priests. So my
idea is to continue to exchange students between Japan and America and if possible to study Chinese
or southern (?) or India. To learn the Indian Buddhist way if possible to have some more good
teachers.
P: From India?
S: Yes, if possible. I found [Lama] Govinda. ... I cannot agree, but I liked his attitude.
P: ...
S: Yes, that is true. They all collecting. The army collected all that . Even if you think .
P: Oh, in World War II. They made for guns and things.
S: Yes.
P: So you think perhaps it's best for American Buddhism to be lay Buddhism?
S: No. I don't mean that. . . . On the other hand my theory is to have good monks and priests who may
practice at . . .(?). (Interrupted) . . .
P: What is the relation between takuhatsu and American Zen?
S: If we have many students, maybe we will.
P: How will we do it?
S: We would dress up in takuhatsu robe ... television ...
38

P: How about general spirit on takuhatsu for original Buddhists?
Last Side
S: ... I don't know when Dick's started. He would listen to me. He was always writing, and he would
come and ask questions about the article is actually what I really meant . For quite a long time we
did it. I don't remember when we started.
P: The lectures were written from Dick's notes then?
S: Yes mostly. He didn't use tape recorder.
P: When you first came to America, people said that you used to go out and dotakuhatsu in the
streets.
S: Yes, I did.
P: For how long?
S: Once in a while I did it. For maybe one year or so. That was the staff. Before I did it without ... I
brought just head of the staff, and someone gave that long stick to me, and since then I
made takuhatsu with that staff. I started from here to Filmore and sometimes I started from here to
downtown.
P: What did people think of you?
S: Quite a few people knew what I was doing. And some people gave me $1 or fifty cents ... that was
big surprise. I did this once a week and sometimes continuously two or three days.
P: Did you raise much money that way?
S: No.
P: What did the police think of it?
S: I don't know. They never said anything. Perhaps they didn't know what I was doing.
P: But not only Japanese gave you money. Caucasians too?
S: Yes.
P: You know it's against the law to beg in America?
S: Yes, someone told me. But I still did it anyway.
P: Why did you stop?
S: Because I became more and more busy.
P: Why did you begin?
S: Because I can continue (clock chimes, can't understand words) ... because in America it is rather
difficult because they lock their door. In the city we can do it, but out of town it is rather difficult to do
39

it. We cannot meet the people ... in the streets they are in the car so it is very difficult. So the only
place we can is like a big city or the center of some town.
P: Didn't you think it sort of strange to begin doing it just to go out in an American street?
S: No, I didn't think so. Because when we do takuhatsu anyway it is something strange for the
peoplemaybe something which people do not understand so well. So I pretty well experienced that
kind of feeling. Anyway, it is strange, so I don't mind so much. How they feel is not my businessit's
their business. I just do it.
P: No reason really
End of page 12
Shunry Suzuki-rshi
INTERVIEW WITH PETER SCHNEIDER
Sunday, November 9, 1969
[Tape starts with background group chatter. Then the mike is set up, and more group chatter follows.
Then Peter Schneider asks Suzuki-rshi a question.]
Peter Schneider: I would like to ask Rshi a question for the Wind Bell that I was going to typetape
just with him, but I think it's awould interest you, so. It will appear in the next Wind Bell. And the
question is to have Rshi talk about Mrs. [Miss] Ransom.
Suzuki-rshi: No. [Laughter.] I must tell you she was my old, old girlfriend [loud laughter].
Peter Schneider: I'll have some water. [Loud laughter.]
Suzuki-rshi: Almost, but not quite [laughter]. When I was young, even from a boy, I couldn't [wasn't]
satisfied with Buddhist life, you know, because of many reasons. So I wanted toto be a good teacher
when I was very young, and I wanted to [1-2 words unclear] people whowho did not priestdid not
respect priests so much. But Iat that time, my ambition may be directed to wrong direction [?].
But anyway, I made up my mind to leave my home and to study to practice under strict teacher. So I
went to my master's temple. And my master [Gyokujun So-on] was a disciple of my father. And my
father, when he was young, [was] very strict with his disciples. And my master was one of thehis
my father's disciple who [was] raised up in very, very strict way. And he wasmy master was always
talking about my father's strictness with him. And Ithat was very, you knowthat was hardest
situation for me to accept, you know. My master almost blaming of my father. "Your father," [tapping
repeatedly] you know, "raised me in this way." [Laughs.] That was very hard toto listen to. Anyway,
this is not what I want to talk [about]. But
So naturally, this kind of spirit I have all the way maybe I becameuntil maybe thirty or more. After
my master's death, I have not much feeling. That kind of feeling changed into theinto opposite way,
and I became very muchI missed my master very much.
So when I waswhen I was at schoolcollege, I studied English pretty hard to go to abroad [laughs]. I
have no idea of America or Hawai'i oranyway, if I am going to some country, I thought I have to
speak English. And I studied English pretty hard when I was a student. And when I was at Komazawa
University, Miss Ransom was teacher of conversation.
40

Once a week, weMiss Ransom taught us conversation. And after I finished her class I attended
English course lecture. And meantime, Miss Ransom found me and asked me to beto help her in
shopping, or when some Japanese come, or when she had studenther private students. Of course, I
couldn't help her so well, but I tried pretty hard. And at last she asked me to stay [at] her home with
two more students who were helping her in shopping and conversation with Japanese people.
But the other students, Kundo andand I don't know theI forgot one more student's nameKundo
was student of Komazawa. And one more student is from Bundikadaima before that school was
normal schoolnormal high school. And that school changed their system and became a university.
And the other students were studying EnglishEnglish course students. And both Kundo and that
student left Miss Ransom's home. I was only one student who helped her. And meantime Ithere
were many interesting stories between Mrs. [Miss] Ransom and I. Don't be so inquisitive [laughs,
laughter].
No, no, no.
Student: Is it alcoholic? [S.R. may have picked up a cup of water.]
Suzuki-rshi: Hmm?
She wasbefore she come to Japan, she was a tutor of last emperor of China, SentEmperor Sent,
Emperor of Manchuria. And at that time, Japan became more and more ambitious, and trying to [for]
some chance to fight with that northern part of China. Emperor Sent's capitol is inI don't know
what is the name of the city right now. At that time it was Choshun. And when hethe Emperor was
there, heshe was a tutor of the Emperor. And she is a daughter of veryI don't know who he is, but
[he was] very famous naval general [admiral].
She was a [had a] very strict character, and at the same time she complained always about Japanese
people: at school what kind of things happened, and at the car what kinds of things happened. She
was always complained about Japan. I was only person who listened to her complain [laughter]. But I
have also many complaint with her. For an instance, she had a beautiful Buddhasitting Buddha as big
as this which was given to her by the Emperor. But she putit was all right for her to put it
in tokonomaon tokonoma, but she put her shoes besides the Buddha [laughs, laughter]. That
was tokonoma, you see.Tokonoma is a place where we put some antique, or scroll, or some valuable
things: object of worship, or something like that. But she used to put her shoes as soon as she come
back from school, you know. That was very, you know, embarrassing to me. But I didn't say anything,
you know, but I offered, you know, tea every morning with small cup like this, you know, putting it
onin front of Buddha, and offered tea every morning [laughs]. She started to [be] amused about me,
andbut she didn't ask anything. And I didn't say anything about it or about her shoes [laughs,
laughter]. Maybe this kind of, you know, silent cold war [laughs, laughter] last maybe for twothree
weeks, and I was waiting for a chance to start hot war [laughs, laughter], as my English was not so
good, you know.
Dan Welch: How about the matches, Rshi?
Suzuki-rshi: Mm?
Dan Welch: The matches.
Suzuki-rshi: So I have to study pretty hard, you know, preparing for the polishing the weapon, you
know, to speak. And I, you know, studied some important word to speak about it [laughs, laughter].
And when one of her friend visited her, shethey were talking about my funny, you knowthings,
you know, about me. "She ishe is very strange Buddhist, offering tea [laughs] for the wooden figure,
41

sometime offering," you know, "incense." They were talking about it. I could understand what they
were talking about. And he started, you knowhis friend started to put matches, you know, in
Buddha's mudr [loud laughter]. And he left, you know, sometime matches [and] sometime, you know,
incigarette [laughter] in incense holder.
Student: Oh, no.
Suzuki-rshi: Still, hot war didn't start. And at last, you know, I don't know how the hot war started,
but she asked me about, you know, about the figure Buddha's figure. [S]he thought Buddhism is a
kind of idol worship. So I explained it, you know. It was very difficult, but I could manage to explain
why we worship wooden image or Buddha or what is the real Buddhamaybe about Dharmakya,
Samboghakya, or Nirmnakya Buddha.
She was rather amazed, you know [laughs]. She didn't know Buddhism is so profound. And she started
to become interested in Buddhism. And soon she converted to Buddhism. And she start to study
Buddhism, because if she want to study Buddhism, there were many professors, and some professors
could speak some English.
So [1-2 words] she hadin one year, I think, she had a pretty good understanding of Buddhism. And
one day she took me to the downtown to buy some incense and some incense bowl, and she started
to offer it. I felt very good. At the same time, I could have some confidence in our teaching, in
Buddhism. And in that way, I thought I had a kind of confidence innot "propagate," butin making
themmaking Caucasian people to understand Buddhism. Or I thought for Caucasian, Buddhism
Buddha's teaching may be more suitable than [for] Japanese, you know. You know, whenfor
Japanese to study Buddhism in its true sense is pretty difficult because of the wrong tradition or
misunderstanding of Buddhism. It is difficult to change their misunderstanding once they have that
kind of wrong idea of Buddhism. But for Caucasian who doesn't know anything about Buddhism, like
we paint in [on] white paper, it is much easier to give right understanding of true Buddhism. I think
that is the, you know, that kind of experience I had with Miss Ransom resulted in my coming to
America, I think.
And as soon as I finished my schooling, I asked my teachermy master, to go to America or Hawai'i or
someto go to anywhere abroad. But he became furious [laughs], and she [he] wouldn't allow me to
go. So I couldn't come to America. And I gave up my notion of coming to America for a long, long time
until I forget all about it. But ten years ago, at last I came to America.
And five yearsfifteen years ago, actually, I had chance to come to America. But because I didn't finish
fixing our main building [at Rinso-in], which was my duty left by my master, so I thought I have to finish
his order first, so I didn't come to America at that time. And maybe five or six years later I had second
chance to come to America, and I decided to come to America. It was pretty hard to come, but anyway
I managed to come to America.
After I finished my schooling, I went to Eihei-ji. And Miss Ransom came to Eihei-ji and stayed for one
month at Eihei-ji, and sitting there, and practicing pretty well. And when I went totwo years after, I
went to Kasuisai monastery. At that time, she came to Kasuisai and stayed for one month also. And
sheand then she went to China again: TientsinTensinTen?Tientsin, yeah, near Peking. And she
went to England. Once in a while I wrote to her, and she wrote to me, but since I came to America I
haven't written so often. She wanted to write something about me, you know: various experience we
had between us, you know. And she asked me to give some date or event. But that is too much, you
know, so since then I didn't write to her, you know, because it was too much. Whenever I write to her
she asked me many things, you know, which is almost impossible to write her back. So I didn't. And,
you know, she may be very angry.
42

At that time [Grahame] Petchey was in England, and he startedhe started Zen group at her home,
you know.
Peter Schneider: Her home! I didn't know that.
Suzuki-rshi: [Laughs.] So whenever Petchey went to her home, she [he] was the one who listened to
her complaint [laughs, laughter]. So II know her very well, you know. Even though she complains, it
doesn't mean so bad. So, you know, I thought it may be all right. But that was my mistake, you know.
She passed away last year, before I write to her.
I trusted her very much, and heshe trusted me so much. So whether I write to her or I don't doesn't
make much difference, I thought, but I don't know. As long as she is alive it is all right. But now, I think,
I regret a little bit about my not writing to her.
Anyway, I think she was a good Buddhist. After she went to Tientsin, she sent me a picture of same
Buddha, you know, who get into trouble between us, you know. And she madeshe enshrined the
Buddha in the wall where there is somesomething like big hole in the wall like this [gestures], you
know, and she said she is offering incense every day [laughs].
Dan Welch: What happened to the shoes, Rshi? Did she ever take them off?
Suzuki-rshi: Yes, of course [laughter]. And I taught her how to clean uptokonoma.
One day she told me to buyto get some daffodil bulb, you know. I bought pretty big one for her, but
she didn't [wasn't] satisfied with them. "Oh, this is too small. Get me some big ones," you know. I tried,
you know, to find bestdaffodils in Tky, at least in Shibuya district. I visited several florists, and I got
the largest bulb we can getI can get. But she didn't [wasn't] satisfied with it. So she makes me very
angry [laughs]. So I bought some onion [laughing, ongoing loud laughter]buy. "Here, I got very big
one. Here they are." And I left, you know, her room. But I was careful, you know, watching herwhat
did happen. She opened it and saw the big bulbs, you know. "Oh, this is very good!" she said. I felt very
good, [but] at the same time scared of him [her], so I ran away from the room, you knowfrom
outside of the room.
And at lastshe didn't like onion, you know, at all. Of course, that is onion so it smells [laughter]. "Oh!
This is onion!" she shouted, and looking around for me. But I wasn't there [laughter]. But I couldn't
help burst into laughtera big laughter, so she found outshe found me out. With onion in her hand,
she started to chase after me. She was a big, tall, girl [?], you know. So I went to upstairs, the second
floor, and from the second floor to the roof. Somethingthat kind of thing happens pretty many
times.
I had to come back [to] her home before ten o'clock. But it was rather difficult, you know, to come
back before ten always. So when I was late, you know, II know how to open the doors. You know,
Japanese door is sliding doors. The lock is between two door, you know. Lock is go this way, you know,
tolike a nail driving down, a nail for two doors. So it is not possible to, you know, open this way, but
youif you lift two doors [laughter], it is quite easy to take out two doors [laughter]. And I sneaked
into themy bedroom and slept.
And at last she found me, you know, what I was doing. And she, you know, didn't trust me any more
[laughs], and she didn't trust the safety of the Japanese building any more. And she determined to
move out from thatfrom that house, you know. And I was told to find out some good safe building,
which was almost impossible, you know. Almost all the buildings are Japanese buildings. If it is
Western building, we have to pay a lot of money. So I gave up to find out that kind of safe building.
43

But it was good for me to go out with some reason to findfinding out some good apartment. And
sometime I went to barber shop, or sometime I visited my friends, you know, instead of finding out
some good apartment. And at last I decided to ask some good, old carpenter to explain, you know,
how safe Japanese building are from thieves and how to fix the lock you know, so that no one can get
in. And Iwe could convince her not to move out.
As she was a English woman, she isshe doesn'teven though rotten old knife, she wouldn't throw
them away. And shesometime she asked me to get [them] polished. But in Japan no one can polish
any knife for anyone, you know. If she has carpenters or gardeners, she mayhe may do it, but she
wanted me to get [it] polished immediately. That was a big problem for me. Andand she said, "In
England," you know, "if you go to a department store we can get them polished up immediately. So go
to Mitsukoshi and ask to get [it] polished." Her idea was ridiculous for Japanese people, you know, to
polish. It was pretty beautiful, good knife. But even so, no one can polish it. "Oh, this is old," Japanese
store may say. "This is very old. Why don't you get new one?" You know, that is what they may say.
Whendo you know Japanese ofuro? When the, you know, cover of the ofurowill easily be get rotten,
so she asked me to get lid only. But that was also difficult, you know. If Iunless we buy whole thing,
they wouldn't sell the wooden ofurobathtubwooden bathtub. I think English way may be
something quite different from American way.
That's all [laughter]. Nothing more than this.
Student A: Rshi?
Suzuki-rshi: Hai.
Student A: She was the firstMiss Ransom was your first Westerner you helped to convert to
Buddhism?
Suzuki-rshi: Yes.
Student A: Who was the second person
Suzuki-rshi: Second?
Student A: after her?
Suzuki-rshi: after her. Maybe Jean Ross or some old students of Zen Center. Since then I haduntil
I come to America, I had no chance to see any Caucasian or any foreignersgaijin.
Student B: Rshi?
Suzuki-rshi: Yes.
Student B: How did you get an idea to teach Caucasian people long time before you'd met any
Caucasian students?
Suzuki-rshi: How? Just, you know, I visited her home when it is very hot, just because I want to have
asome cold drink, I visited her [laughs]. It was sohot, you know. [Sentence finished. Tape turned
over.]
44

without she will give us something, you know, some drink or watermelon or something like that. She
gave me a big, you know, watermelon, cutting in two, and putting some sugar in it, and with big spoon
she offered half [the] melon,big one.
Peter Schneider: And you determined to come to America [loud laughter]?
Student C: Hey, it's the watermelon, man. That's what it is.
Suzuki-rshi: Oh, maybe so because of watermelon.
Student D: "Watermelon Zen."
Suzuki-rshi: "Watermelon Zen."
Dan Welch: If I remember right, Rshi, there was another Zen master in Kyoto who got caught by a
watermelon [laughter].
Student E: What's that story, Dan?
Suzuki-rshi: Dan, don't youit may be good idea to send a picture of watermelon, you know
picture of Zen Center student eating watermelon [laughs, laughter]. Some Zen teacher like me may
come [laughs, laughter].
Dan: Publish it in the Dai-hrin.
Suzuki-rshi: She was very tall, maybe as tall as [Grahame] Petchey, you know. Very tall girl.
Student E: Petchey's about 6'-2", I think.
Suzuki-rshi: [Laughs, laughter throughout paragraph.] She used to put white, big hat like this, and she
was very tall, and I was very small. When we go to shopping, I have to almost run. Because she had no
one to talk, you know, to talk with, and as soon as she come back from school, she start to talk with
me in fireplace. So I was always studying in fireplacein the corner of fireplace. I couldn't study
anything, you know. I couldn't have any studyany homework, so I decided to buy big, big screen. I
told her for Japanese it is necessary to use, you know, big screen. So she bought it for me, and so I was
very pleasedjust to prevent, you know, her talk. But she was so tall! Taller than screenwatching
down. Didn't work at all. I gave up. Very big.
Another professor, Sugioka, would visited our home many timesmaybe twice a week or weekend.
She wasshehe isaccording to her, he is a big scholar in English, you know. He knows more
vocabularyhe has more vocabulary than Miss Ransom herself, she said. And he wasshe was very
much proud of him. But he was also very shortas short as me, you know. I don't know why she liked
so short people [laughter]. The man who translated Uchiyama-rshi's book, you know, small book.
Someone said it was not so good translation.
Student E: Which book is that, Rshi?
Suzuki-rshi: Small.
Student E: Uchiyama-rshi?
Suzuki-rshi: Mm-hmm. Palms.
Student E: With the hands?
45

Suzuki-rshi: Yes. With hands.
Student E: Oh. Why did you leave her?
Suzuki-rshi: Hmm?
Student E: Why did you leave herdid you leave her?
Suzuki-rshi: Because I, you know, because I have to finish my thesis. So fivesix months before I
finish my schooling, I left her. And she went to Tientsinwent back to China again. She was a good
friend of Premiere Yoshida. She ishe is a famous premiere who signed the treaty after the war
Student E: Russian war [of 1905] or?
Suzuki-rshi: treaty ofat San Francisco, you know, treaty of complete surrender. He is the
premiere who signed.
Dan: Rshi, what did you write your thesis in?
Suzuki-rshi: Hmm?
Dan: Rshi, what did you write your thesis about?
Suzuki-rshi: About Shbgenz. Study of Shbgenz, focusing on "Raihai-tokuzui"the chapter of
the meaning of bow.
Student C: What?
Student F: "Vow" or "bow"?
Suzuki-rshi: Hmm?
Student C: Bow?
Student E: Bow.
Suzuki-rshi: Bow.
Student E: Is that because your master bowed so much?
Suzuki-rshi: Maybe so. I didn't notice it. Maybe so. I was the last one who submit my thesis to the
office [laughter], because I was too busy, you know. Most student finish his d- [partial word]unit,
you know. Maybe most students leave three or four units for last year, but I had twelveI had twelve
units more to go. So I was very busy in writing thesis and finishing twelve units. That was why I bought
screen, but it didn't work [laughter].
Student F: Rshi, could you tell us something of what you wrote your thesis on?
Suzuki-rshi: Hmm?
Student F: Could you tell us something about your thesis?
Suzuki-rshi: Study of Shbgenz, focusing on the fascicle of bow.
46

Student F: Could you tell us what you wrote?
Suzuki-rshi: Too long.
Student F: Inin a capsule? In [laughter]
Suzuki-rshi: Essence? You have to bow anyway [laughter]. That is why you have to bow nine times,
you know, maybe. My thesis was very good, you know, but my oral question was not so good, you
know, because I didn't study so much. Some other questions?
Student G: Rshi?
Suzuki-rshi: Yes.
Student G: A few years ago, at a lecture at thatin the basement of that big church
Suzuki-rshi: Mm-hmm.
Student G: that big church downtown on [2-3 words unclear], you were giving a lectureno, Dick
was talking, and you were just listening.
Suzuki-rshi: Uh-huh.
Student G: And you had your handsyour mudr upside down. The rightthe right hand on top of
the left hand.
Suzuki-rshi: Uh-huh.
Student G: And then sometimesand then I was sitting right in the front row, and I was staring at your
hands. And you weren't looking at me, I don't think, but you fixed them, and you put the left back on
top of the right. But then you'd be listening to Dick, and your right would go back on top [laughter].
And Iand I thought that something was strange was going on. And I looked real hard, and you put
your sleeves over your hands [laughter]. My question is, what were you up to [laughter]?
Suzuki-rshi: That was your study [story?], then.
Student G: What?
Student E: "That was your study, then."
Suzuki-rshi: Usually this isI have not much feeling on this, so.
Student E: Why not?
Suzuki-rshi: Because I cut my finger from here to here. Sometime I don't feel so good, you know, and
I do like this [laughter].
Student E: Oh. Hehehehe's doing this. See? Like this, though.
Suzuki-rshi: You know, this finger. So if I don't feel so good, I do like this and go back to
the mudr like [gesture]. Sometime I am doing like this one.
Student H: Rshi, do you still hear from some of your master's disciples, or other Zen masters?
47

Suzuki-rshi: Excuse me?
Student H: Some ofsome of your master's disciples
Suzuki-rshi: Mm-hmm.
Student H: Who were studying with you. Do you still hear from them?
Suzuki-rshi: Yes.
Student H: Uh-huh.
Suzuki-rshi: My younger, you know, brother in dharma was taking care ofonce in a while after I left
Rinso-in came to my temple and helped my boy [Hoitsu-rshi+ or a priest who was there always.
Student H: There was a fire in your temple?
Suzuki-rshi: Excuse me?
Student H: I didn't quite understand. There was a fire there?
Suzuki-rshi: No, no. When you know, after I left my temple, you know, there must be some qualified,
you know, teacher in my temple [laughs, laughter]. Someone like me must be there. So my brother in
dharma was formerly or officially responsible for my temple, but actually someone else was always
there. But anothermy elder brother in dharma is now in the temple which I enter for the firstafter
I finish my schoolingZoun-in. And then as soon as my master passed away, I took over my master's
temple and my elder brother, you know, took over my place.
So still we have three dharmabrother in dharma. And one is nowI don't know what he is doing. He
is not priest anymore. And weI was actually the youngest one. At that time there were four more
disciples, and II was the youngest one. And four disciples run away from my master because he was
too strict.
Student H: Couldcould you give us some example of his strictnessof what he did that was so
strict?
Suzuki-rshi: [Laughs.] You know, he is very, you know, unique character. And he would sit in the
corner of dark room, and when someone enter his room he stares at him like this and without
stopping eating [laughter]. Most people [were] scared of him very much. Just to look at him is good
enough. Before he say something he would strike mestrike usbam! [Laughter.] A little like
Tatsugami-rshi also does. For Tatsugami-rshi, there is no need to speak English. His hand will speak
fluently [laughter].
Student I: They'll laugh now[laughter].
Suzuki-rshi: And he's pretty humorous, you know, sometimevery much humorous. And he was very
good friend of us in some way. For an instance, when we came back from village after finishing
memorial service for our members, three of ourthree or four [of] our discipleshis disciples were
with him, and we are coming back to my temple. When we came to dark, you know, dark slope, you
know, he told us to take offohtold us to go ahead, you know. "As you boys [are] wearing tabi, so
may be better for you to go first. I willbecause I have no tabi, I will follow you," he said. So we, you
know, went back ahead of him. As soon as we arrive at our temple, he told us to sit in front of him.
48

"You boys sit here and listen to me. When I don't wear tabi, why did you wear tabi?" That was his, you
know, question. "Why did you wear tabi? When I don't wear"
Student H: Whatwhat is turby?
Students: Tabi.
Suzuki-rshi: Socks.
Student H: Oh.
Student J: White socks.
Suzuki-rshi: "Moreover," you know, "when I told you," you know, "to go ahead, you four boys went
ahead of me without noticing that I have no tabi.How about that? [Thumps several times.] You goose!"
you know. "You foolish boys!" He was very mad at us. You know, at that time I took him very seriously,
but I thinknow I thinkI think apparently he was teasing us, you know. He was playing game with
us. He was enjoying, you know, our innocence [laughter]. "Sit here," and we four boys sit [laughter].
We didn't know what will go on, you know. No one could figure out what iswhat was wrong with us
[laughter].
[One day] when he was not at temple, one chicken died [laughs, laughter throughout]. So we decided
to eat it, taking off all the feathers. But it was very difficult to cut, you know, with blunt temple knife.
Very difficult. So we ate only one leg. And rest of the chicken we buried. [We recited?] small, you
know, stra. Unfortunately, next morning my master found it, you know, when he was weeding. But
he didn't tell anything, you know. That was the day before Obon festival. And after we, you know,
prepared altar for the various soul, we had dinner [?]. Tomorrow is, you knowoh, that was August
13
th
when we have Obon festival. And [at] breakfast time he told us, "I had a funnyvery funny dream
last night. One-legged hen came to me"
Student E: "One-legged hen said to me"
Suzuki-rshi: Yeah. "One-legged hen came to me and said, 'Itthe altar is too high for me. So please
move it lower.' And the hen asked me, 'Do you have some good idea?' he asked us. All of us. All of us."
We couldn't see [look at?] him either. What he meant by that?
Student E: Obon festival is the festival for all spirits.
Dan Welch: The dead spirits.
Suzuki-rshi: The dead spirits. The oneone-legged henhen came to the altar, but he couldn't climb
up.
Student K: The spirit of one dead hen, or?
Student E: One-legged hen.
Suzuki-rshi: One-legged hen, because we ate, you know, one leg and buried, you know, the hen
around the tree. And my master found out, unfortunately. And hehe didn't say anything at that
time. It was the day we have Obon festival. And afterwhen we have breakfast, "I had a very funny
dream last night." [Laughter.] We were listening to him. One day [the hen] came [to him], he said, so
[laughs, laughter].
49

Student E: Where did the chickens come from? [Laughter.]
Suzuki-rshi: We were raising them. We were [4-8 words unclear], and unfortunately one of them
died.
Student E: They were at the temple?
Suzuki-rshi: Yeah. So we ate [laughter] one only. Because it is too difficult to cook itcut it, so we
gave up and buried it, you know, in the garden.
Student E: So what did he say when you were like this, Rshi? *Probably gesturing.+
Suzuki-rshi: I don't know. I don't remember, anyway, you know. We have no words.
Student L: Was that all he ever said about it?
Suzuki-rshi: Hmm?
Student L: Was that all he ever said about it?
Suzuki-rshi: Yeah.
Dan Welch: Isn't that enough?
Suzuki-rshi: That's enough, you know. [Laughter.] "Do you have some idea to help him?"that was
what he said. We are not so alert students anywaydisciple, you know, because we have no words for
him. Hai.
Student M: Is he the one that kept some yokan [?] up on a very high shelf?
Suzuki-rshi: Yes. He is the
Student M: Will you tell us about that?
Suzuki-rshi: Ohh. Whenever he had somethingsome special thing, you know, for guest, he would
keep it in high place where we cannot reach, you know. But, you know [laughs and laughter
throughout paragraph], we know how to take it, you know. So almost all the time, Iwe took it down
and cut a little bit corner of itslice by slice we cut. Andand then, looking at it, when we feel
anyway he will find out, so we took [?] all of them. That is what we would do, you know.
One day, you know, it was too high for us to reach [laughter throughout paragraph]. So myour eldest
disciple asked me, who is the smallest one, to reach it. And he said, "I will carry you on my shoulders.
Then you can reach for that." So I, you knowhe carried me on his shoulder. And it was stillwe were
not still high enough. So I told him, "A little bit more." So he stood on his toe, you know, like this, and
he lost balance. He throw me out on the kettleboiling kettle.
Student: Oh God.
Suzuki-rshi: I got big, you know, burned here. Still I have some, you know, mark here. But I couldn't
say anything about it [laughter].
So when mealtime come, so I, you know, enduring my pain, I sit in my seat. And we startI started to
eat, but this was pretty terrible injury. Someone told me to use some oil on it. So by oil I hardly, you
50

know, recovered. I have still, you know, some mark here. Alm- [partial word]we did almost all the
mischievous thing, almost. But when we do it with all of us, he didn't scold us so badly.
But one day, we ate some big persimmonfour or five persimmons, which he kept it until it isuntil
they are good enough to eat in ricein rice. And when someone ate it, you knowI don't know who
did itbut when he found out someone ate several persimmons already, he asked me who ate it. So
iactually I didn't know, you know. "No, I don't know," I said. And he started to find out who did it.
Finally he found out two of themtwo of us had eaten. At that time he was very angry, you know, not
because we ate it, but because hethey didn't share the persimmons with all of us. He was very
angry. I think he was verypretty kind to all of us, I think. Maybe with skillful mean.
Student: What time is it?
Student: It's 9:30.
Suzuki-rshi: Just right [laughter] [1-2 words unclear].
Thank you very much.

Pacifica Radio interview with Shunryu Suzuki and Richard Baker - 11/06/67

This is a verbatim transcription of the tape of an interview by Elsa Knight Thompson of Pacific Radio
with Shunryu Suzuki and his head student Richard Baker. In the ZC tape archive it is dated Friday
February 18, 1966. But if that's true, I'd say that if that was the date then they were being terribly
prescient for the events they're discussing had not yet happened. For instance they discuss the first
practice periods at Tassajara which took place in the late spring and summer of 1967. So I thought it
was '68 but that wasn't a Friday and in '66 it was. I called Pacifica Archives and learned the actual date
listed above and below. I think that ZC got a copy when it was made and it was somehow misdated. I
shouldn't even bother you with that but I love these little details.
It's not a very inspiring interview on her part or theirs. Baker was just in his late twenties. Suzuki didn't
really get in gear. They never really connected - to me anyway. It makes me laugh and cringe.
The transcriber's comments such as places where words are unintelligible are [in brackets]. I'll stick my
comments or clarifications or guesses at what the unintelligible words were [[in double brackets]]. At
some point I may take this interview and edit it so that it reads more smoothly but for now I'll leave it
as is so you can see the raw material and so I can go work on the garage. - DC
To get a copy of this tape contact:
Pacifica Radio Archives
3729 Cahuenga Blvd. W.
North Hollywood, CA 91604
818 506-1077
800 735-0230
It's called Zen Mountain Center and is Archive # BB1495.
It's dated 11/06/67 and was broadcast on KPFA on 1/06/68. The master is on a 1/4 inch reel to reel
tape.
51

It's $15 for a CD or tape but the first person who buys either is going to have to pay an extra $10 for
the mastering or something like that. Does that mean nobody ever bought one? I think it would be
worth it just to hear the voices and get back into that day in history but for someone not familiar with
all this I don't recommend it at all and don't think it would make a good impression and would suggest
buying one of the audio tapes of Suzuki lectures available through the SF Zen Center and some other
sources. - DC

Elsa Knight Thompson interview with Shunryu Suzuki and Richard Baker at KPFA/KPFB Studio,
Pacifica Radio, Berkeley, CA
There's a note at the end that says: Opening words were not recorded. Presumed to be "Why don't
you start ...".
Elsa Knight Thompson: by telling us something more about our guest, Suzuki-roshi.
Richard Baker: Shunryu Suzuki-roshi came to America about six years ago [[I've noticed that Baker is
almost always off on dates and numbers. Suzuki came in late May of '59]], and he was only going to
stay for a year or two and [2 words] [[then return]]. Many Americans came to meditate with him. He
kept postponing leaving and finally there was such a large group meditating with him in San Francisco
[1 word] [[there was]] no more room and there wasn't an opportunity to study with him as well as if
we had a place in the mountains. And we found Tassajara hot springs which is this beautiful, old,
historical hot springs and historical sight in the San Lucia mountains.
Elsa Knight Thompson: Now, we're-we're still talking about Suzuki-roshi. Didn't he have a
congregation in Japan prior to coming to this country?
Richard Baker: Yes, he-as I understand, now I-
Elsa Knight Thompson: We can ask him at what-prior to coming to United States-
Suzuki-roshi: I was appointed by our headquarters to Soko-ji temple. And when-while I was there, I sit
every morning and many Caucasians started to join my practice. That is why I started sitting with
them-with Caucasian. Mostly-
Elsa Knight Thompson: You were a Zen priest-
Suzuki-roshi: Yes.
Elsa Knight Thompson: Who translated into American? Is that-in Japan you were a Zen priest.
Attached to a monastery or a center? What would the proper explanation be?
Suzuki-roshi: I was the head priest of Rinso-in, which is pretty big temple, and I was always helping the
monastery near there.
Elsa Knight Thompson: I see. You were attached to a temple and you worked also with the Zen monks
there [?]. And you came to this country for a visit and acquired so many people who wish to study with
you that there was first a congregation in San Francisco was there not? And then this whole situation
expanded suddenly into something which is now the Zen Mountain Center. And perhaps Richard you
could tell us how the Zen Mountain Center came about? Where it is and so on as you started to do a
52

while ago, but I wanted the audience to have a little better acquaintance with Suzuki-roshi before we
began on the center.
Richard Baker: It's in the San Lucia mountains down inland from the big [[Big Sur]] coast about ten
miles. Do you-should I say something more about his background in Japan or anything like that? I
mean, it wasn't exactly clear. Let me say that Soko-ji, which he mentioned, is the name Soko-ji. Soko
stands as Japanese shortening for San Francisco-ji temple is the Japanese congregation in San
Francisco which he was asked to come to because he knew English. And there are very few Zen
masters in the-there's two major sects. There's Soto and Rinzai, and there's only about 20 Zen masters
in-or less, maybe 10 in Soto [[This idea of Baker's seems to me to come from Suzuki's comments of
there being a limited number of good teachers in Japan. The term "Zen master" has no fixed meaning
but I'd say it would have a more definite meaning for Rinzai than Soto and the number of priests who
would be included as such could number in the thousands depending on criteria.]] And we were lucky
to have him come here, and he was only going to come for about two years and then he was going to
go back to Japan. And then he-because of so many people needed him to stay, he stayed.
The San Lucia Mountains are part of the Los Padres National Forest which stretches from about Carmel
Valley down to the Hearst Castle [It's in two parts and goes more like down to Santa Barbara]]. It's
about 350,000 acres of-much of it is a wilderness area. And right in the middle of it, the northern
middle of it, there's a-there's Tassajara hot springs, and there's a 20-[[14]] mile dirt road that passes
from Carmel Valley up through the mountains over a 5,000-foot pass and down into this narrow valley
where the hot springs are. And we bought the 160 acres surrounding where we're still in the process
of paying two payments, about $90,000 on it. We still have $220,000 to go or something over the next
two years. And we purchased it and-because so many people gave us money, we really weren't
prepared to and helped us, we really weren't prepared to start a training and monastery operation
right away. We felt obligated to do so and this summer we ran our first practice period with about-
well, more than 200 students, probably, all together participated but 70 students at a time staying for
a month or two months to a year.
Thompson: Well are there buildings and things of that sort that were connected with its previous use
so that you have been able simply to move in and, for the time being at least, make do with the
physical facilities there.
Baker: Right. The facilities are-are beautiful old buildings built along-the road itself was built which is
rather-in Buddhism you talk about the dao or the way, well, the road itself was built by Chinese who'd
worked on the railroad. And it's a road that couldn't be built now-it's too complicated and expensive
[[My personal opinion is that although it's a great road, if built now it would drain better - slope
toward the open edge rather than the mountain wall side which makes the water build up thus
threatening erosion]]. It's rather precipitous mountain country. And they built the road by handling
stones up and then packing dirt on it, which the road still exists, and they built these buildings about
100 years ago. Quarrying the rocks themselves.
And we've-we've changed the buildings. Put a large zendo or meditation hall in the largest building.
Made a guest dining hall in one of the other buildings so the people who have been coming there for
years for the hot baths would continue to come. And made a dormitory [[not a new building]] and
equipped all the cabins for the students. And have done an enormous amount of work making it-the
students do all the work themselves. We cook for ourselves and take care of ourselves and grow food.
Thompson: Well, now you say about 200 people were there this-this summer. Do they-is it simply a
cooperative effort or do they come there for specific training and-do they have to-is there fee for
53

courses? How do you, you know, how physically do we go about all this before we get on to its
significance?
Baker: In a Zen monastery, monastery is not such a good translation of the word that's used in Japan,
because monastery in America usually means monastic life, and exclusion from outside society, and a
place where you live maybe all your life. In Zen, if we call it-it would be better to translate it as practice
center or something. It's a place where you go for an intensive study of-intensive meditation study and
practice with other people and with your Zen master or your Roshi for a period of time. This may be
three months, or four months, or a year, but it's not for a lifetime and your expected to go back into
ordinary society. Generally, you stay two or three months and then go back into ordinary society and
then back two or three months. Over a period of several years, you might [?] do this to develop your
practice. [[That's Suzuki and Baker's way of looking at it and it's largely true for Japanese Zen, but there
are Zen temples in Japan where monks stay for many years, even a lifetime.]]
And students pay two dollars, if they stay a short time, a day or they stay-pay a dollar if they stay a
longer time, and a few students don't pay anything if they're staying a year or something like that.
Thompson: Well, now another thing that monastic means is that it's all male.
Baker: This is men and woman.
Thompson: This is men and woman. [Laughs] I want to be clear about that. Well, now that explains
more or less the physical aspects of the situation. I take it that Suzuki-roshi will in fact be in residence
at the Zen Mountain Center most of the times so that the students will come and go, but you will
remain more or less stationary. Is that-[1/2 words] [[true]] Suzuki-roshi?
Suzuki-roshi: I was moving there so much so at first I didn't have that-that idea of staying there all the
time. But recently, Japanese congregation agreed my stay-with my in Tassajara most of the time.
Recently we had meeting and they agreed with it. So I can stay most of the time at the center or the
monastery. [[That's what he hoped to do but it didn't really work out that way.]]
Baker: The Japanese congregation has been very reluctant to give him up. [[Until a year later when the
gave him the ultimatum to choose between the two groups, us or them. So he resigned from being the
priest of Sokoji.]]
Thompson: This is the Japanese congregation in San Francisco? Yes.
Baker: But they've helped us a great deal and we have two other priests, both younger Zen priests,
one who's in charge in San Francisco named Katagiri-sensei, and a new, young, brilliant priest we
brought from Japan, for Tassajara, who's in-who's in Tassajara at the mountain center when Suzuki-
roshi is not there. And he's there all the time and his name is Chino-sensei. [[Kobun Chino came to be a
priest for the Los Altos Zendo and did reside there for some years after being at Tassajara for a year or
so.]]
Thompson: Well, let me ask you questions which may seem to be completely beside the point. There
have been a number of people who have lectured on, among them Alan Watts whom I believe is
concerned with this center also. There are places where, in general, the problems of the mind and the
spirit and psychology are discussed at length, like the Esalen situation. What would you say
distinguishes what you are trying to do from the other things which appear to be in some way related?
Now don't both of you sit there and ask the other one the answer. I will ask you to both answer in
succession.
54

Baker: Who's first?
Thompson: I don't care which one of you goes first, but I want an answer from both of you.
Baker: Okay. I think there's a underlying, if you look at it sociologically or something like that, there's
an underlying similarity between-or some change in orientation going on in society which is at the
basis for people when they first get interested in Zen or when they go to an Esalen encounter program
or the other things of that interest. But once your into the practice of Zen, it's quite different because
we so thoroughly emphasize the identity of body and mind and though you practice-in some sense the
practice is-you can practice from a mental point of view or a physical point of view but both really are
one. We emphasize the directness of this kind of practice, really, that goes beyond mental or
emotional or physical. And in order to practice, we emphasize sitting as calmly as possible so that your-
you know your mind and body before it takes any activity. In other words, if you sit as calmly as
possible in a meditation posture, it doesn't necessarily have to be lotus posture or anything like that it
can be in a chair. But-with-and with a certain way of thinking about things, it frees you from
conceptual ways of thinking about things, your mind and body become-you become to know your
mind and body before they take any activity. And out of that they balance or almost a kind of silence,
you take your activity. And this strong orientation in this direction is different from the others, I think.
Thompson: And your answer?
Suzuki-roshi: Please, continue.
Thompson: No, he said what he wanted to say for the time being I think. And we'd-I'd like to know
from you. You would come into the American society at a certain very turbulent period in America's
development in every way, when this country is, without doubt, the most powerful country in the
world and in the minds of many the most dangerous. You came for a purpose. You are attempting to
fulfill that purpose. What purpose in the context of this society, which you have now had as an
opportunity to observe for some time, where do you feel what you are doing-what contribution, what
roll you-does your approach and the approach that presumably the people who will study with you
have in-in the general context? Because we're talking to an audience which includes, not only many
people who for years have heard Zen lectures about, but also many people whose views are largely
political rather than spiritual in direction, but who have a great interest in. So, I would like to know
from you what you feel the role of this group and this activity or lack of activity, since you are about
engage in [1 word].
Suzuki-roshi: First of all, I think it is necessary for everyone, not only American people or Japanese
people. It [?] for everyone the most important thing is to have more flexible mind, you know, which
you can observe things as it is and accept things as it is without any prejudice or one-sided idea. This is-
when I say like this [1 word] looks like quite easy, but actually it is not so easy. In this point, without
directing our practice or our human life, in this point whatever you do will not be successful because
you will create problems with each other, you know. Someone-when someone is successful, it means
for some other person. It means it may be the difficulty. So, in this way we have various problem in
this world and in this society-even in our family. So, first of all we should be-our life should be
concentrated on each moment. Not without much-with much prejudiced or not much one-sided, rigid-
Thompson: What your talking about is a total awareness all the time.
Suzuki-roshi: Yeah. Total awareness and to know our situation always. To be aware of.
55

Thompson: Yes. Now tell me, supposing one were-does train for total awareness, which is after all not
exclusively a Zen concept-
Suzuki-roshi: No. [[Poor Suzuki. I know he'd rather not be there and now, to be polite I think, he's gone
along with her idea of 'total awareness" whatever that means. I'm sure he was glad to get out of there
and not do this sort of thing ever again.]]
Thompson: But has been the concept of all great mystics throughout time, I believe. Doesn't that
mean also being aware of-of what's wrong? Meaning, others words, so many times it seems to me, let
me try to put it another way. So many times as soon as people become involved in this kind of idea
and they grasp the idea intellectually, they begin to assume that they achieved purity rather than the
beginnings of consciousness. And this, it seems to me, causes more difficulty with some of the
practitioners and talkers about what everybody should be doing. Then the person quite frankly admits
that they are-that they know that such a thing exists and might be possible, but that they are also
infinitely aware that they have not yet arrived there. And this has always seemed to me to be the great
problem with the promulgation-with getting people to understand this because they hear people talk
about it and then they say but that person is not this and this and this and this and they are not. I want
you to talk about this please.
Suzuki-roshi: Yeah. Intellectual understanding of something may be sometime, if it is about future it
will be-it will create some-it will be-it will bound our activity or it will restrict our activity. If it is about
something you have done already, it is the limitation of the actual experience which should be forget,
you know. And-but without forgetting about forgetting the previous intellectual understanding of
something, that means you are bound by something which is not real. This attitude will create some
other difficulties. So, in this way we are bound by future and past without knowing the-
Thompson: Without knowing the future or understanding the past.
Suzuki-roshi: Without knowing which is real-without any real understanding of anything [laughs,
laughter]. Sacrificing most valuable present [1 word] [[moment]]. This is what we are doing and-not
only we lose the true meaning of our life, we are creating problems for ourselves which exist only in
present moment. This is [1 word] [[creating]] problems for human being.
Thompson: What if you know what you're doing at the present moment, you know, supposing-you-a
person beginning with this idea knows that at the present moment he is aware of something, but he
discovers that what he is aware of in himself is evil and he knows it. Isn't this part of the process? In
other words, your becoming aware of something and you realize that you are covering your real
motivations with good intentions, or pretending to yourself that you are doing something for one
reason when actually you are about to do something for quite another reason. Isn't there a great deal
of, well, I won't say suffering, but isn't there a great deal that might be discovered that would not be to
easy to accept for people who attempt this path? Why don't you talk about that Richard because you, I
understand, are doing just that.
Baker: When you-of course the experience of the person who's beginning to sit-to do meditation, to
do zazen-meditation, again, is not to good a translation because you don't meditate on anything; you
sit there ready for whatever happened [?] [[happens]]. You find that it uncovers many things, many
things which ordinarily wouldn't happen in psychoanalysis or something like that happen to you, and
many other things happen to you to. None of them do you give much importance one way or the other
except as sort of occurrences. But, your-you find that the sitting-the process of meditation has a deep
wisdom in it somehow, so that as it uncovers it strengthens you at the same time to be able to accept
what it uncovers. And you begin by sitting so that you don't twitch and scratch your nose and move
56

just cause you're restless. That imperturbability, which you begin to get physically and then mentally,
helps you when visions or monsters or some very disturbing part of yourself comes to your awareness.
You have a kind of imperturbability which just lets you let it happen and find out what's going on.
Now the earlier thing which you said-which you were trying to relate this kind of practice to the
political situation and also to-does the person practicing feel he's achieved some purity or some
special state which means that he doesn't have to do much maybe or something like that. I think to
feel that you arrive at something is a completely mistaken idea. I mean Zen is completely against the
idea that you ever arrive. There's only this moment. There can't be any achievement because there's
nothing to compare that achievement with.
So Suzuki-roshi often says that the best way is to have a beginner's mind-just the beginner, who's just
starting who takes everything from a fresh and spontaneous point of view because the expert mind is
only capable of one or two things. The beginner's mind is open to everything. And then it's much
better to say that Zen is something which makes you ready for any activity. So that if you, you know,
are confronted with a world in which there are many problems, that your activity may be-in some way
your-who you are is defined by your situation moment after moment. Right now I'm a person talking
on a microphone. That's who I am. I'm not Dick Baker or something like that. I'm a person talking on a
microphone. When I get in the car, I'll be a person driving a car.
So if I'm marching in a peace march, I'm a person marching in a peace march because that's the
situation that's presented to me and I'm taking that. If I'm more for individual freedom in some way,
then that's the kind of person I am at that moment. I-the Zen person becomes a person who responds
and is at one with his situation moment after moment. So, if he's in an evil society, he should-society
isn't really evil or good but there are many problems which occur in society. I think that your response
will be, moment after moment, to bring things-yourself in tune with it and at the same time it in tune
with the natural order of mind and you can almost say cosmic naturalness that you experience.
Thompson: Well, I was also sort of headed toward the idea of the difference between knowing that a
thing can be done and being able to do it. I mean, I can accept as a fact that you or you may be able to
be totally aware-mentally, emotionally, and spiritually from moment to moment, but the fact that I
know that it's a fact doesn't suddenly put me in the same position, and I think that frequently when
people have studied with their minds a great deal about any religious process, and I'm using the word
religious in its broadest sense, they tend to confuse the desire for virtue with the achievement of
virtue. And I-does it not take a long time for the achievement or is it-well, for example, when you're
meditating-certainly if you're meditating, and again I'm trying to use it in the widest sense that you
have referred to, and particularly in a beautiful place surrounded by people who love you in the
biblical sense of that word, in the religious sense of that word, you might be able to be aware of
everything from moment to moment. It might be a great experience, but is not the purpose so that
you can in the market place be that same person.
Suzuki-roshi: Here, in your question, I think something-ach-you put emphasis on intellectual
understanding or your point is intellectual understanding is not achievement itself. Here you put
emphasis on achievement. But, actually we do not achieve anything, you know, in our practice. But
just to be ourselves on that moment is the way. So, when-when you have-when you have some idea of
achievement, just achievement is already something which you will achieve. So, that is not what you
have right now. Achievement should be something you already have, and how to have it to forget all
about the idea of self or to be one with the surroundings. That is how to achieve our goal. Our goal is
[?] right here not some place [?] or in the future.
Thompson: And right now?
57

Baker: Your question or-are really-real expression of yourself in some way, I feel. It's quite interesting.
It's so fully packed with ideas that it's hard to answer or respond to any of them almost. But one thing
you said, and I'm not sure how it fits in but, one things you said is about take-can you know if-you may
want to achieve something but can you know you can achieve it or that's not the same as achieving it.
When [?] the emphasis on the nowness [?], which is sounds-everyone says the now, there are even
rock-n-roll groups named the ever present now, but to really physically and emotionally be totally in
this nowness, which is a rather radical-you really perceive first that you have a change to a perceiving
space rather than time, and then almost where you don't perceive time or space. Past and future are
totally in this moment, so that you'd act on the future only in the realistic sense in which what you do
now has effectiveness-now as the future is present in this moment. So you don't sort of speculate or
get yourself involved in situations which there's no-you don't find your mind putting yourself in
situations which you actually physically and emotionally can't be effective in [end of tape side A]. In
other words, if something-if you find yourself taking action on something, it's something which that
future is present in this moment and that you can totally mentally, physically, and intellectually be
involved in. Now, the other thing is, we don't-I don't think, at least from my own practice I've been
sitting every day or every twice a day or longer for about six or seven years now, my experience is not
one of having achieved anything or any special total awareness or something. I suppose it is-I notice
some differences in the way I used to be. It's more-what I mean to say is-that's not quite right-it's not a
freedom from problems, perhaps the sting [?] is gone from the problems, but life is still a constant
series of inadequacies and problems and things you cope with. The change is the immediacy and
spontaneity with which you cope with them more than that there are no problems.
Thompson: Well, I wouldn't certainly that, even if the problems weren't yours, that the world is far
from free of problems.
Baker: Sometimes when you read the teachings though, it says things like you have to realize that the
world is perfect as it is. That it is nir-that samsara and nirvana in the-there's the something called the
Madhyamika [[this was misspelled with a question mark - I couldn't leave it that way]] school and out
of this they had the idea which Zen is part of that school. Samsara-the world of delusion is the same as
nirvana. The world of complete-
Thompson: Are one.
Baker: Enlightenment are one. So you can get the idea that well everything's okay. It's all nirvana, you
know, we're all perfect, but on some way that's true but that doesn't mean that in the practicalities
every day you still don't brush your teeth and take care of things and worry about the world's
problems-least for me anyway [laughs, laughter].
Thompson: Go [?] on. You see to the average-let me try to put it in another way. To many people
listening to talk about this sort of thing, is purely an intellectual thing, you know, they hear about it.
The same as hear about [1 word] that there's been a demonstration in Oakland or anything else that
they haven't been involved in, you see. But, I think that also people are very much interested-these
ideas and ideas related are very current in our society today. I think that many of the younger people,
without even knowing it, are withdrawing in many ways from what we call the establishment for
reasons that in some way are related to these reasons. And therefore the relationship between what
you in western parlance believe and your conduct, your ability to live in a society surrounded with
violence, surrounded with poverty, surrounded with human suffering, and to do so from moment to
moment with love and clarity is quite a project as to be envisaged by the average person, you see. And
I wanted in this interview, if I could, to shed some light from your standpoint on those problems to the
person who might be interested in involving themselves and to the-from the people who are already
involved as Richard here is. Is there any comment you would-either one like to make?
58

Baker: It's pretty easy for the average person, maybe, if he practices something like zazen. That kind of
practice is really a kind of shortcut, though even if your in it you have to be so-you have to really
practice fully with your whole mind and body in order to make it work, if there's some idea of it
working. But it's course, I don't think, you can't say that that kind of awareness is impossible for other
people, but it's-it does seem, if you don't have some ideas and way of going about thinking and moving
your body and life toward that orientation, then it seems impossible. But if you have some suggestion,
like Zen Buddhism which is-in a way it doesn't exist, because ultimately it's a-it's a way of freeing you
from all conceptions, all frameworks, all body or mind hindrances. So, whence [?] you really-when you
really do it, Zen Buddhism doesn't exist, but it's certainly helpful to feel it exists for a while.
Thompson: Is there anything else you would like to say?
Suzuki-roshi: How to help people is very-not very difficult thing but it is rather difficult to explain how
to, you know. To help people, in its true sense, is just to join [?] their life and [1 word] [[see]] their life
as they do and to be always friend of others. That is only way. And if they find me something different
from them even though we are in same condition and living same way. This is, I think, how to help
them and how to teach them real practice of Zen.
Baker: Can-can-we're ending soon I think.
Thompson: Yes.
Baker: I'd like to say one thing, is that the possibility of all of this occurring and the opportunity for
many people to come in contact with Suzuki-roshi and with other teachers, is really only for the first
time possible in America through Zen Mountain Center for any-on any-otherwise there's a few places
where you meditate two or three times a week, that kind of thing. But with a real Zen master and with
the situation of being able to live there for months or a year or something like that is [?] possible.
Thompson: Thank you both very much for being here.