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#37412 - 08/13/10 03:17 PM modeling of vessels yes or no?

KemalK
Member

Registered: 06/26/08
Posts: 70
Loc: Bosnia and
Herzegovina (Saraje...
Hello to all.

when we have to analyze pipeline for example from the top of the column do
you make model of vessel or it is enough to calculate thermal expansion of
column by hand and just put displacement in caesar on the node where pipe is
connected to columns nozzle.


Edited by KemalK (08/13/10 03:18 PM)
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#37415 - 08/13/10 04:57 PM Re: modeling of vessels yes or no? [Re: KemalK]
Richard Ay

Member

Registered: 12/13/99
Posts: 5213
Loc: Houston, Texas,
USA
I recommend you model the vessel, for two main reasons:

1) If you change the temperature of the vessel, CAESAR II will determine the
displacements and apply them properlly. You don't have to remember to do
this.

2) If you apply a wind load, CAESAR II will determine (and apply) the
deflection.
_________________________
Regards,
Richard Ay
Intergraph CAS


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#37416 - 08/13/10 05:52 PM Re: modeling of vessels yes or no? [Re: Richard Ay]
KemalK
Member

Registered: 06/26/08
Posts: 70
Loc: Bosnia and
Herzegovina (Saraje...
Thanks:)

I agree with you Mr.Richard Ay

It would be great if we could export vessel model from cadworx equipment or
pvelite in to the caesar.


Edited by KemalK (08/13/10 05:54 PM)
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#37417 - 08/13/10 07:25 PM Re: modeling of vessels yes or no? [Re: KemalK]
Richard Ay

Member

Registered: 12/13/99
Posts: 5213
Loc: Houston, Texas,
USA
Data exchange between all of our products is one of the top priorities here. We
all agree with your observation. We are working toward this goal.
_________________________
Regards,
Richard Ay
Intergraph CAS


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#37429 - 08/15/10 08:27 AM Re: modeling of vessels yes or no? [Re: Richard Ay]
Chakot
Member

Registered: 05/01/09
Posts: 43
Loc: Italy
I agree with Richard, but I often have problem in modeling the material of
vessel.
If I work to the project from the beginning, I prefer ask to the vendor the
displacements of the nozzles in all the cases I need.
Sometimes they give me the answers, but sometimes after my question they
just say me: "What?".

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#37472 - 08/16/10 11:07 AM Re: modeling of vessels yes or no? [Re: Chakot]
Edward
Klein
Member

Registered: 10/24/00
Posts: 311
Loc: Houston, Texas,
USA
Chakot,

That is because, unfortunately, very few people outside of the stress
community understand the concept that things grow when they heat up.

I agree that, particularly with the capability of modern stress software, adding
elements to model equipment is the better way to go.

As far as materials - for modeling movements, you really only care if it is
carbon, stainless, chrome-moly, etc. While exact grades may not be available
early on, your process and mechanical equipment folks should know very
early on what family of material the equipment will be made from.
_________________________
Edward L. Klein
Pipe Stress Engineer

All the world is a Spring

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#37624 - 08/24/10 04:49 AM Re: modeling of vessels yes or no? [Re: Edward Klein]
Chakot
Member

Registered: 05/01/09
Posts: 43
Loc: Italy
Edward, thank you for your answer.
My big concern is not only the thermal dilation of the vessel, but to predict its
displacement under the wind. Specially if we have reducers, sometimes I
experienced some stress problem. I don't know how much the elastic modulus
of the material can affect the results.
Usually I model the vessel with the same material of pipe, but I pay attention
on dimensions of vessel, diameter, thickness, corrosion.
I take account of the skirt, and without looking at insulation, like Kellogg
would suggest, I insert in the model 1/3 of its lenght (because its dilation is
smaller, and it is more rigid than the vessel). Then, if necessary, I use cnode
for the supports.
What does do the community think about my approach? Do you agree?

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#37643 - 08/24/10 05:48 PM Re: modeling of vessels yes or no? [Re: Chakot]
KemalK

Member

Registered:
06/26/08
Posts: 70
Loc: Bosnia and
Herzegovina
(Saraje...
can anybody analyze this model

Pipe entering nozzle (In case of Rigid nozzle analysis)

from 30 to 40 dx=half diameter of vessel (rigid element without weight)
from 50 to 60 nozzle with diameter and wall thickness. on node50 cnode is 40
on node 60 is anchor.

is it good model. see sketch above



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#37678 - 08/26/10 02:03 AM Re: modeling of vessels yes or no? [Re: KemalK]
Chakot
Member

Registered: 05/01/09
Posts: 43
Loc: Italy
Kelmak, I like your model.
I would add:
1) pay attention at the element 10-20 because its temperature it is different
than the vessel temperature.
2) pay attention at the temperature of element 20-30, because as kellogg would
suggest, if there are outlet nozzles, you should split the element in more
"slices".
3)You would need an extra node between 60 and 70 if you want to check the
leakage fo flanges

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#37691 - 08/26/10 12:32 PM Re: modeling of vessels yes or no? [Re: Chakot]
KemalK
Member

Registered: 06/26/08
Posts: 70
Loc: Bosnia and
Herzegovina (Saraje...
yess i know for temperatures for 10-20 and 20-30.
yes acc.to specification for stress analysis leakage check is required but i never
do this:). probably i will have questions about that:)

thanks for comments.

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#40280 - 01/19/11 12:46 AM Re: modeling of vessels yes or no? [Re: KemalK]
runner
Member

Registered: 12/11/08
Posts: 115
Loc: INDIA
hi to all
I am also facing same problem like you, Can you kindly answer this questions.

1) Why you considered 50 to 80 as pipe element in reality its
pipe,flange,flange,pipe connecting to vessel?
2) If your comparing nozzle loads from Vendor data, Which node your
considering to compare in above model, its common that you will consider at
node 50 but my question is Vessel vendor data should match with piping loads
which is between 60 and 70? Is that right?
3) I hope your model Fx, My, MZ loads might be 10000, 4000, 50000 how do
you reduce Mz moments.
4) from node 20 to 30 there is difference in temp/pressure how do you
consider that?

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#40291 - 01/19/11 05:21 AM Re: modeling of vessels yes or no? [Re: runner]
danb
Member

Registered: 04/22/05
Posts: 1164
Loc: ...
1) It is pipe, flange,flange,pipe connecting to vessel.
2) Normally the vendor will consider the loads at nozzle to shell connection.
3) This is part of detailed design so we can not give you a detailed answer on a
general question.

Regards,
_________________________
Dan

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#40384 - 01/23/11 02:09 PM Re: modeling of vessels yes or no? [Re: danb]
008tramp
Member

Registered: 01/05/11
Posts: 11
Loc: KSA
I would like to opine on your model, though apparently perfect, in light of the
methodology described in CAESAR II Application (that could be found in the
program files of your computer-COADE)the way as follows:

If you have to carry out flexibility analysis of the vessel, then felxibilities must
be introduced between nodes 40-50, wherein one of the duo would be node of
either of vessel or that of the connecting pipe/nozzle while the other would be
cnode.

1- 10-20 element with zero pressure, and temperature, for sure, less than that
of the vessel itself. Its diameter would be as much as described in data sheet or
worked out in calculations. Its base i.e. node 10 restrained as anchor.
2- 20-30 element with pressure/temperature= vessel press. & temperature
material=that of vessel; wall thickness and corrosion allowance =that of
vessel; diamter= that of vessel
3- 30-40 rigid element with zero wieght; diamter= that of vessel; pressure=
zero; temperature= that of vessel, node 40 restrained as anchor with node 50 as
its cnode
4- 50-60 element with pressure/temperature = that of nozzle; diamter= that of
nozzle; thickness/corrosion allowance/fluid density/peipe density etc.= that of
nozzle, in short all the design conditions would be the same as those of
nozzle.

Rest of the modeling is as easy as it must be, means rigid element for flange,
with weight that of flange etc.

In such modeling flexibility analysis, or WRC 107 could be easily carried out
by clicking in the CAESAR II INPUT SPREAD SHEET NOZZLE, and filling
data like node of nozzle, that of vessel, distance from first stiffner, and that
from the second stiffener etc.

Run results of stresses would tell as to whether vessel is safer at the point of
junction; by the way there is an alternative method too, where
reactions/moments at rigid anchor of nozzle are picked from the restraint
summary and then put in the WRC-107 sheet.

Anyway it wasnt an improvement, rather a different opinion or description of
methodology taught by CAESAR II, therefore please consider it merely
sharing of methodologies.

Regards,

Muhammad Imran Mirza


Edited by 008tramp (01/23/11 02:14 PM)
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#41150 - 02/21/11 10:47 PM Re: modeling of vessels yes or no? [Re: 008tramp]
kaaliappan
Member

Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 24
Loc: singapore
Hi
i need one clarification regarding the vessel pressure
one of my senior stress engineer asked to model the equipment as a pipe (not
as Rigid) and he want to apply pressure on that equipment
since in the Set up file the Bourdan Effect is "ON" for Transalation and
Rotation
the forces and moments on the Flange is increased

Is it is neceaasary to put Pressure on Equipment for checking the Nozzle
allwable forces and moments.

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#41220 - 02/24/11 12:12 PM Re: modeling of vessels yes or no? [Re: kaaliappan]
PKU
Member

Registered: 08/18/06
Posts: 77
Loc: Aberdeen
Vessel pressure is not reuired in CAESAR model. We are interested in thermal
growth and later if exposed to wind, vessel sway and wind excited vibration.
Vess groups has already taken care of pressure selecting the thickness of the
vessel.
_________________________
PKU

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#46416 - 12/27/11 06:46 AM Re: modeling of vessels yes or no? [Re: danb]
________
Member

Registered: 01/18/11
Posts: 17
Loc: World

Originally Posted By: danb

2) Normally the vendor will consider the loads at nozzle to shell connection.


Anchor should be modeled in CAESAR II exactly at the shell to nozzle
connection, in case if we model the vessel ? Node number 50 as per the
drawing.

Is it a mistake if we model the anchor at nozzle point node number 65
(between 60 and 70).

While the vessel displacement is manually calculated and given at the flange
end, the loads are being checked at the flange point and not at the shell to
nozzle intersection.

Please clarify and show me some reference to get a better idea.
_________________________
Regards,
...

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#46472 - 01/02/12 05:45 AM Re: modeling of vessels yes or no? [Re: KemalK]
danb
Member

Registered: 04/22/05
Posts: 1164
Loc: ...
Ask yourself what do you (or vendors) check: the flange or the junction.

Even when you manually calculate the displacenents, you can model the
nozzle.

Regards,


Edited by danb (01/02/12 05:45 AM)
_________________________
Dan