Can Civilization Survive "Really Existing

Capitalism"? An Interview With Noam

Chomsky
Noam Chomsky (Photo:
Haymarket Books)
By C.J. Polychroniou, Truthout | Interview
Wenesay! "# $%to&er '"#( ")*('
+ore than ,our e%aes o, Noam Chomsky-s writings are availa&le in a new anthology
,rom .aymarket /ooks0 1et this %olle%tion ,rom the master o, opposing the hu&ris o, 2S
empire0 Cli%k here now0
3or e%aes now! Noam Chomsky has &een wiely regare as the most important
intelle%tual alive 4linguist! philosopher! so%ial an politi%al %riti%5 an the leaing 2S
issient sin%e the 6ietnam War0 Chomsky has pu&lishe over #"" &ooks an thousans
o, arti%les an essays! an is the re%ipient o, ozens o, honorary o%torate egrees &y
some o, the worl-s greatest a%aemi% institutions0 .is latest &ook!+asters o, +ankin*
Essays an 7e%tures! #)8)9'"#:! has ;ust &een pu&lishe &y .aymarket /ooks0 $n the
o%%asion o, the release o, his last &ook! Chomsky gave an ex%lusive an wie9ranging
interview to C0<0 =oly%hroniou ,or >ruthout! parts o, whi%h will also appear in >he
Sunay Ele,therotypia! a ma;or national 1reek newspaper0
C0<0 =oly%hroniou* In a nationally televise aress on the eve o, the #:th anniversary o,
the Septem&er ##th atta%ks on the 2nite States! $&ama announ%e to the Ameri%an
people an the rest o, the worl that the 2nite States is going &a%k to war in Ira?! this
time against the sel,9pro%laime Islami% State o, Ira? an Syria 4ISIS50 Is Ira? an
un,inishe &usiness o, the 2S invasion o, '"":! or is the situation there merely the
inevita&le out%ome o, the strategi% agena o, the Empire o, Chaos?
Noam Chomsky* "Inevita&le" is a strong wor! &ut the appearan%e o, ISIS an the
general sprea o, rai%al ;ihaism is a ,airly natural outgrowth o, Washington wieling
its slegehammer at the ,ragile so%iety o, Ira?! whi%h was &arely hanging together a,ter a
e%ae o, 2S92@ san%tions so onerous that the respe%te international iplomats who
aministere them via the 2N &oth resigne in protest! %harging that they were
"geno%ial0"
$ne o, the most respe%te mainstream 2S
+ile East analysts! ,ormer CIA operative
1raham 3uller! re%ently wrote that "I think the
2nite States is one o, the key %reators o,
AISISB0 >he 2nite States i not plan the
,ormation o, ISIS! &ut its estru%tive
interventions in the +ile East an the war in
Ira? were the &asi% %auses o, the &irth o, ISIS0"
.e is %orre%t! I think0 >he situation is a isaster
,or the 2S! &ut is a natural result o, its
invasion0 $ne o, the grim %onse?uen%es o, 2S92@ aggression was to in,lame se%tarian
%on,li%ts that are now tearing Ira? to shres! an have sprea over the whole region!
with aw,ul %onse?uen%es0
ISIS seems to represent a new ;ihaist movement! with greater inherent tenen%ies
towar &ar&arity in the pursuit o, its mission to re9esta&lish an Islami% %aliphate! yet
apparently more a&le to re%ruit young rai%al +uslims ,rom the heart o, Europe! an
even as ,ar as Australia! than al9Caea itsel,0 In your view! why has religious ,anati%ism
&e%ome the riving ,or%e &ehin so many +uslim movements aroun the worl?
7ike /ritain &e,ore it! the 2S has tene to support rai%al Islam an to oppose se%ular
nationalism! whi%h &oth imperial states have regare as more threatening to their goals
o, omination an %ontrol0 When se%ular options are %rushe! religious extremism o,ten
,ills the va%uum0 3urthermore! the primary 2S ally over the years! Saui Ara&ia! is the
most rai%al Islamist state in the worl an also a missionary state! whi%h uses its vast
oil resour%es to promulgate its extremist Waha&iDSala,i o%trines &y esta&lishing
s%hools! mos?ues! an in other ways! an has also &een the primary sour%e ,or the
,uning o, rai%al Islamist groups! along with 1ul, Emirates 9 all 2S allies0
It-s worth noting that religious ,anati%ism is spreaing in the West as well! as emo%ra%y
eroes0 >he 2S is a striking example0 >here are not many %ountries in the worl where
the large ma;ority o, the population &elieves that 1o-s han guies evolution! an
almost hal, o, these think that the worl was %reate a ,ew thousan years ago0 An as
the Repu&li%an =arty has &e%ome so extreme in serving wealth an %orporate power that
"It's worth noting
that religious
fanaticism is
spreading in the
West as well, as
democracy erodes."
it %annot appeal to the pu&li% on its a%tual poli%ies! it has &een %ompelle to rely on these
se%tors as a voting &ase! giving them su&stantial in,luen%e on poli%y0
>he 2S %ommitte ma;or war %rimes in Ira?! &ut the a%ts o, violen%e %ommitte these
ay against %ivilians in the %ountry! parti%ularly against %hilren an people ,rom
various ethni% an religious %ommunities! is also simply appalling0 1iven that Ira?
exhi&ite its longest stret%h o, politi%al sta&ility uner Saam .ussein! what ia%ti%
lessons shoul one raw ,rom toay-s extremely messy situation in that part o, the
worl?
>he most elementary lesson is that it is wise to ahere to %ivilize norms an
international law0 >he %riminal violen%e o, rogue states like the 2S an 2@ is not
guarantee to have %atastrophi% %onse?uen%es! &ut we %an harly %laim to &e surprise
when it oes0
2S atta%ks against ISIS-s &ases in Syria without the approval an %olla&oration o, the
Syrian regime o, /ashar al9Assa woul %onstitute a violation o, international law!
%laime Eamas%us! +os%ow an >ehran &e,ore the start o, &om&ing0 .owever! isn-t it
the %ase that the estru%tion o, ISIS-s ,or%es in Syria woul ,urther strengthen the Syrian
regime? $r is it that the Assa regime is a,rai it will &e next in line?
>he Assa regime has &een rather ?uiet0 It has not! ,or example! appeale to the Se%urity
Coun%il to a%t to terminate the atta%k! whi%h is! unou&tely! in violation o, the 2N
Charter! the ,ounation o, moern international law 4an i, anyone %ares! part o, the
"Supreme law o, the lan" in the 2S! uner the Constitution50 Assa-s murerous regime
ou&tless %an see what the rest o, the worl oes* the 2S atta%k on ISIS weakens its
main enemy0
In aition to some Western nations! Ara& states have also o,,ere military support to
2S atta%ks against ISIS in Ira? an Syria0 Is this a %ase o, one ,orm o, Islami%
,unamentalism 4Saui Ara&ia! ,or example5 exhi&iting ,ear ,or another ,orm o, Islami%
,unamentalism 4ISIS5?
As the New Fork >imes a%%urately reporte! the support is "tepi0" >he regimes surely
,ear ISIS! &ut it apparently %ontinues to raw ,inan%ial support ,rom wealthy onors in
Saui Ara&ia an the Emirates! an its ieologi%al roots! as I mentione! are in Saui
rai%al Islami% extremism! whi%h has not a&ate0
7i,e in 1aza has returne to normal%y a,ter .amas an Israel agree to a %ease9,ire0 3or
how long?
I woul hesitate to use the term "normal%y0" >he latest onslaught was even more vi%ious
than its pree%essors! an its impa%t is horrenous0 >he Egyptian military i%tatorship!
whi%h is &itterly anti9.amas! is also aing to the tragey0
What will happen next? >here has &een a
regular pattern sin%e the ,irst su%h agreement
was rea%he &etween Israel an the =alestinian
Authority in Novem&er '""G0 It %alle ,or "a
%rossing &etween 1aza an Egypt at Ra,ah ,or
the export o, goos an the transit o, people!
%ontinuous operation o, %rossings &etween
Israel an 1aza ,or the importDexport o, goos!
an the transit o, people! reu%tion o,
o&sta%les to movement within the West /ank!
&us an tru%k %onvoys &etween the West /ank
an 1aza! the &uiling o, a seaport in 1aza!
Aan theB re9opening o, the airport in 1aza"
that Israeli &om&ing ha emolishe0
7ater agreements have &een variants on the
same themes! the %urrent one as well0 Ea%h
time! Israel has isregare the agreements
while .amas has live up to them 4as Israel
%on%ees5 until some Israeli es%alation eli%its a
.amas response! whi%h gives Israel another
opportunity to "mow the lawn!" in its elegant
phrase0 >he interim perios o, "?uiet" 4meaning one9way ?uiet5 allow Israel to %arry
,orwar its poli%ies o, taking over whatever it values in the West /ank! leaving
=alestinians in ismem&ere %antons0 All! o, %ourse! with %ru%ial 2S support* military!
e%onomi%! iplomati% an ieologi%al! in ,raming the issues in a%%or with Israel-s &asi%
perspe%tive0
>hat! inee! was the purpose o, Israel-s "isengagement" ,rom 1aza in '""G 9 while
remaining the o%%upying power! as re%ognize &y the worl 4apart ,rom Israel5! even the
2S0 >he purpose was outline %anily &y the ar%hite%t an %hie, negotiator o, the
"isengagement!" =rime +inister Sharon-s %lose asso%iate! Eov Weissglass0 .e in,orme
the press that ">he signi,i%an%e o, the isengagement plan is the ,reezing o, the pea%e
pro%ess0 An when you ,reeze that pro%ess! you prevent the esta&lishment o, a
=alestinian state! an you prevent a is%ussion on the re,ugees! the &orers an
<erusalem0 E,,e%tively! this whole pa%kage %alle the =alestinian state! with all that it
entails! has &een remove ine,initely ,rom our agena0 An all this with authority an
permission0 All with a A2SB presiential &lessing an the rati,i%ation o, &oth houses o,
Congress0"
>hat pattern has &een reiterate over an over! an it seems that it is &eing re9ena%te
toay0 .owever! some knowlegea&le Israeli %ommentators have suggeste that Israel
might ,inally relax its torture o, 1aza0 Its illegal takeover o, mu%h o, the West /ank
4in%luing 1reater <erusalem5 has pro%eee so ,ar that Israeli authorities might
anti%ipate that it is irreversi&le0 An they now have a %ooperative ally in the &rutal
military i%tatorship in Egypt0 3urthermore! the rise o, ISIS an the general shattering
"Each time, Israel
has disregarded the
agreements while
Hamas has lived up
to them (as Israel
concedes) until some
Israeli escalation
elicits a Hamas
response, which
gives Israel another
opportunity to 'mow
the lawn.'"
o, the region have improve the ta%it allian%e with the Saui i%tatorship an possi&ly
others0 Con%eiva&ly! Israel might epart ,rom its extreme re;e%tionism! though ,or now!
the signs o not look auspi%ious0
>he latest Israeli %arnage in 1aza stirre pu&li% sentiment aroun the worl in%reasingly
against the state o, Israel0 >o what extent is the un%onitional support renere &y the
2S towar Israel the outplay o, omesti% politi%al ,a%tors! an uner what %onitions o
you see a shi,t in Washington-s poli%y towar >el Aviv?
>here are very power,ul omesti% ,a%tors0 $ne illustration was given right in the mist o,
the latest Israeli assault0 At one point! Israeli weapons seeme to &e running low! an
the 2S kinly supplie Israel with more avan%e weapons! whi%h ena&le it to %arry the
onslaught ,urther0 >hese weapons were taken ,rom the sto%ks that the 2S pre9positions
in Israel! ,or eventual use &y 2S ,or%es! one o, many ini%ations o, the very %lose military
%onne%tions that go &a%k many years0 Intelligen%e intera%tions are even &etter
esta&lishe0 Israel is also a ,avore lo%ation ,or 2S investors! not ;ust in its avan%e
military e%onomy0 >here is a huge voting &lo% o, evangeli%al Christians that is ,anati%ally
pro9Israel0 >here is also an e,,e%tive Israel lo&&y! whi%h is o,ten pushing an open oor 9
an whi%h ?ui%kly &a%ks own when it %on,ronts 2S power! not surprisingly0
>here are! however! shi,ts in popular sentiments! parti%ularly among younger people!
in%luing the <ewish %ommunity0 I experien%e that personally! as o others0 Not long
ago I literally ha to have poli%e prote%tion when I spoke on these topi%s on %ollege
%ampuses! even my own university0 >hat has greatly %hange0 /y now =alestine
soliarity is a ma;or %ommitment on many %ampuses0 $ver time! these %hanges %oul
%om&ine with some other ,a%tors to lea to a %hange o, 2S poli%y0 It-s happene &e,ore0
/ut it will take har! serious! ei%ate work0
What are the aims an the o&;e%tives o, 2S poli%y in 2kraine! other than stirring up
trou&le an then letting other ,or%es o the irty work?
Immeiately a,ter the ,all o, the /erlin Wall an the su&se?uent %ollapse o, the 2SSR!
the 2S &egan seeking to exten its ominan%e! in%luing NA>$ mem&ership! over the
regions release ,rom Russian %ontrol 9 in violation o, ver&al promises to 1or&a%hev!
whose protests were ismisse0 2kraine is surely the next ripe ,ruit that the 2S hopes to
plu%k ,rom the tree0
Eoesn-t Russia have a legitimate %on%ern over 2kraine-s potential allian%e with NA>$?
A very legitimate %on%ern! over the expansion
o, NA>$ generally0 >his is so o&vious that it is
even the topi% o, the lea arti%le in the %urrent
issue o, the ma;or esta&lishment ;ournal!
3oreign A,,airs! &y international relations
s%holar <ohn +earsheimer0 .e o&serves that
the 2S is at the root o, the %urrent 2kraine %risis0
7ooking at the %urrent situation in Ira?! Syria! 7i&ya! Nigeria! 2kraine! the China Sea
an even in parts o, Europe! H&igniew /rzezinski-s re%ent %omment on +SN/C that "We
"he !" is at the
root of the current
!#raine crisis."
are ,a%ing a kin o, ynami%ally spreaing %haos in parts o, the worl" seems rather
apropos0 .ow mu%h o, this evelopment is relate to the e%line o, a glo&al hegemon
an to the &alan%e o, power that existe in the era o, the Col War?
2S power rea%he its peak in #)(G an has &een rather steaily e%lining ever sin%e0
>here have &een many %hanges in re%ent years0 $ne is the rise o, China as a ma;or
power0 Another is 7atin Ameri%a-s &reaking ,ree o, imperial %ontrol 4,or the last %entury!
2S %ontrol5 ,or the ,irst time in G"" years0 Relate to these evelopments is the rise o,
the /RICS &lo% 4/razil! Russia! Inonesia! China! South A,ri%a5 an the Shanghai
Cooperation $rganization! &ase in China an in%luing Inia! =akistan! the Central
Asian states! an others0
/ut the 2S remains the ominant glo&al power! &y a large measure0
7ast month marke the 8)th anniversary o, the 2S atomi% &om&ing o, the %ities o,
.iroshima an Nagasaki in <apan! yet nu%lear isarmament remains a %himera0 In a
re%ent arti%le o, yours! you uners%ore the point that we are merely lu%ky to have
avoie a nu%lear war so ,ar0 Eo you think! then! that it-s a matter o, time &e,ore nu%lear
weapons ,all into the hans o, terrorist groups?
Nu%lear weapons are alreay in the hans o,
terrorist groups* state terrorists! the 2S
primary among them0 It-s %on%eiva&le that
weapons o, mass estru%tion might also ,all
into the hans o, "retail terrorists!" greatly
enhan%ing the enormous angers to survival0
Sin%e the late #)I"s! most avan%e e%onomies
have returne to preatory %apitalism0 As a
result! in%ome an wealth ine?uality have
rea%he spe%ta%ular heights! poverty is &e%oming entren%he! unemployment is
skyro%keting an stanars o, living are e%lining0 In aition! "really existing
%apitalism" is %ausing mass environmental amage an estru%tion whi%h! along with
the population explosion! is leaing us to an unmitigate glo&al isaster0 Can %ivilization
survive really existing %apitalism?
3irst! let me say that what I have in min &y the term "really existing %apitalism" is what
really exists an what is %alle "%apitalism0" >he 2nite States is the most important
%ase! ,or o&vious reasons0 >he term "%apitalism" is vague enough to %over many
possi&ilities0 It is %ommonly use to re,er to the 2S e%onomi% system! whi%h re%eives
su&stantial state intervention! ranging ,rom
%reative innovation to the "too9&ig9to9,ail"
government insuran%e poli%y ,or &anks! an
whi%h is highly monopolize! ,urther limiting
market relian%e0
It-s worth &earing in min the s%ale o, the
epartures o, "really existing %apitalism" ,rom
"$uclear weapons
are already in the
hands of terrorist
groups% state
terrorists."
"&eally e'isting
capitalism ( &E)* for
short (pronounced
'wrec#ed') ( is
radically
incompati+le with
democracy."
o,,i%ial ",ree9market %apitalism0" >o mention only a ,ew examples! in the past '" years!
the share o, pro,its o, the '"" largest enterprises has risen sharply! %arrying ,orwar the
oligopolisti% %hara%ter o, the 2S e%onomy0 >his ire%tly unermines markets! avoiing
pri%e wars through e,,orts at o,ten9meaningless prou%t i,,erentiation through massive
avertising! whi%h is itsel, ei%ate to unermining markets in the o,,i%ial sense! &ase
on in,orme %onsumers making rational %hoi%es0 Computers an the internet! along
with other &asi% %omponents o, the I> revolution! were largely in the state se%tor 4RJE!
su&siy! pro%urement! an other evi%es5 ,or e%aes &e,ore they were hane over to
private enterprise ,or aaptation to %ommer%ial markets an pro,it0 >he government
insuran%e poli%y! whi%h provies &ig &anks with enormous avantages! has &een roughly
estimate &y e%onomists an the &usiness press to &e perhaps on the orer o, as mu%h
as KL" &illion a year0 .owever! a re%ent stuy &y the International +onetary 3un
ini%ates 9 to ?uote the &usiness press 9 that perhaps "the largest 2S &anks aren-t really
pro,ita&le at all!" aing that "the &illions o, ollars they allegely earn ,or their
shareholers were almost entirely a gi,t ,rom 2S taxpayers0" >his is more evien%e to
support the ;ugment o, +artin Wol, o, the 7onon 3inan%ial >imes! that "an out9o,9
%ontrol ,inan%ial se%tor is eating out the moern market e%onomy ,rom insie! ;ust as the
larva o, the spier wasp eats out the host in whi%h it has &een lai0"
In a way! all o, this explains the e%onomi% evastation prou%e &y %ontemporary
%apitalism that you uners%ore in your ?uestion a&ove0 Really existing %apitalism 9
RECE ,or short 4pronoun%e "wre%ke"5 9 is rai%ally in%ompati&le with emo%ra%y0 It
seems to me unlikely that %ivilization %an survive really existing %apitalism an the
sharply attenuate emo%ra%y that goes along with it0 Coul ,un%tioning emo%ra%y
make a i,,eren%e? Consieration o, nonexistent systems %an only &e spe%ulative! &ut I
think there-s some reason to think so0 Really existing %apitalism is a human %reation!
an %an &e %hange or repla%e0
Four latest &ook! +asters o, +ankin! whi%h %ame out in Septem&er &y .aymarket
/ooks! is a %olle%tion o, essays written &etween #)8) an '"#:0 >he worl has %hange a
great eal uring this perio! so my ?uestion is this* .as your unerstaning o, the
worl %hange over time! an! i, so! what have &een the most %atalyti% events in altering
your perspe%tive a&out politi%s?
+y unerstaning o, the worl has %hange
over time as I-ve learne a lot more a&out the
past an ongoing events regularly a new
%riti%al materials0 I %an-t really ienti,y single
events or people0 It-s %umulative! a %onstant
pro%ess o, re9thinking in the light o, new
in,ormation an more %onsieration o, what I
han-t properly unerstoo0 .owever!
hierar%hi%al an ar&itrary power remains at
the %ore o, politi%s in our worl an the sour%e
o, all evils0
In a re%ent ex%hange we ha! I expresse my pessimism a&out the ,uture o, our spe%ies0
Hierarchical and
ar+itrary power
remains at the core
of politics in our
world and the source
of all evils."
Fou replie &y saying "I share your %onvi%tion! &ut keep remem&ering the line I-ve
o%%asionally ?uote ,rom the Anale%ts! e,ining the -exemplary person- 9 presuma&ly the
master himsel,* -the one who keeps trying! though he knows there is no hope0-" Is the
situation as ire as that?
We %annot know ,or sure0 What we o know! however! is that i, we su%%um& to espair
we will help ensure that the worst will happen0 An i, we grasp the hopes that exist an
work to make the &est use o, them! there might &e a &etter worl0
Not mu%h o, a %hoi%e0
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