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by Hilary Melton
“Humorous” is probably not a word one would immediately associate with Nick Flynn,
the author of such dark and luminous books as the poetry collection, Some Ether and the
memoir, Another Bullshit Night in Suck City; books that deal with his mother’s suicide and his
father’s history of alcoholism and homelessness. But humor is very much a part of who Flynn
is. People should be warned in advance of a favorite recurring joke, one that consists of Flynn
making a completely absurd statement then drawing the story out as far as he can. When I
asked him during our interview, “Do you have a favorite poet?” Flynn paused for a moment,
and then answered sincerely, “Buster Keaton. I really admire his shit. But a lot of it is silent, so
most people don’t get it. He does great things with white space.”
I first met Flynn in 1984. I was 22 and fresh out of four years in the Peace Corps. I had
spent months wandering around the East Coast, completely disorientated, trying to find a job.
When I applied for a position in the men’s unit at Boston’s largest shelter for people who are
homeless, the Pine Street Inn, Flynn was already a seasoned counselor. If you were a newbie
working at Pine Street, Flynn was the counselor you would hope would be in the crowded
Brown Lobby with you when a fight broke out, or at the front door when a guest showed up
covered in lice. He clearly respected and loved the people who stayed at Pine Street, and he
seemed to me to be fearless.
Flynn and I had our first one on one conversation late one night in the men’s dormitory.
It must have been the tail end of the 3 to 11 shift— because that was one of the few times
young women counselors were given dorm duty, before booze and drugs wore off for the
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hundreds of men lined up inches apart on army issued cots. I was sitting in the dimly lit alcove
across from the elevator when Flynn walked by on rounds. Chances are I was wearing a t-shirt,
worn 505 Levis and blue high top Converses and Flynn was in black jeans and some thrift store
retro shirt. It is also very likely that he was sporting some particularly absurd accessory he
lifted earlier from the donations in the clothing room: a neon yellow tie, a straw hat, platform
shoes…
We began having one of those “getting to know you” conversations that are usually a
litany of safe questions: “Where were you born? Where’d you go to school?” I must have been
the one who brought up parents. In that first conversation, we never got to fathers, because
when Flynn said his mother was dead and had committed suicide, I was convinced that he was
making it up. Determined to not be had, I dug my heels in, insisting he knock it off and tell me
I’m not sure how long I perpetrated that embarrassment, but it was long enough for me
to still feel a twinge over 20 years later. In our recent interview, Flynn spoke about how, when
he wrote about his father in his poetry, readers assumed that Flynn was using metaphors
because they could not grasp the idea of “father” and “homeless” applying at the same time to
the same person. In a similar way, that night in the men’s dormitory, “dead mother” and
“suicide” did not fit into my version of a conversation that included “Where’d you go to
college?”
Flynn has since the 80’s gone on to write the much acclaimed books, Some Ether and
Another Bullshit Night in Suck City that reflect upon his childhood, his mother’s suicide, and
his experiences working at the Pine Street Inn during a period when his father was homeless.
Flynn is also the author of a second collection of poetry, Blind Huber, a series of poems based
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around the 17th century French/Swiss beekeeper Francois Huber. Stanley Kunitz called Blind
Huber “an act of poetic imagination unlike any other.” In addition to the two collections of
poetry and the memoir, Flynn is co-author with Shirley McPhillips of A Note Slipped Under
the Door, a nonfiction book about teaching poetry that draws from his experiences as poet-in-
residence at the Teacher’s College Reading and Writing Project at Columbia University.
the PEN/Joyce Osterweil Award, and the Larry Levis Reading Prize from the Virginia
Commonwealth University. He has also been awarded fellowships from the Library of
Congress and the Guggenheim Foundation, and the Amy Lowell Traveling Poetry Fellowship,
which allowed him to spend two years in Italy, Ireland, and Tanzania.
Flynn’s best known books, Some Ether and Another Bullshit Night in Suck City, are
decidedly autobiographical in nature and were written during an era of ongoing discussion
about the value of the personal in literature following the backlash against the strongly
personal poetry that characterized American poetry for much of the second half of the last
century. In a 1997 interview for Poets & Writers Magazine, Denise Levertov said, “I’m very
tired of the me, me, me kind of poem, the Sharon Olds ‘Find the dirt and dig it up’ poem,
which has influenced people to find gruesome episodes in their life, whether they actually
happened or not... I know perfectly well that lots of people really have been abused, but it’s
unfortunate to use the fact as the passport to being a poet. I’m certainly tired of that kind of
egotism.”
This past July, Jean Valentine at a lecture at Vermont College entitled, The “I” in
Levertov’s position, insisted that the subject matter of a poem should not at all be at issue. How
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the subject is dealt with, how the writer has or has not created “art,” regardless of content, is
what should be of concern. And while Valentine did not necessarily define her terms in this
lecture (for instance, what in fact qualifies as “art”?), she was clear about one point: whether
writing about incest or about the meaning of life, the writer’s first obligation is to the craft.
Is it merely craft and artistry that takes the ego out of Levertov’s “me, me, me”? In
reference to Flynn’s very personal story and poetry, Tony Hoagland used the word “allegory.”
human conduct or experience.” Hoagland wrote about Some Ether, “…the book’s gift is not the
sensationalism of the tale, but the delicate kiltered skill with which the poems collage anecdote
How does one create allegory from subject matter that is not typical human experience:
a mother’s suicide, a father’s homelessness, a 18th century beekeeper’s life and the life of bees
and flowers? At the core of allegory is the presence of some essential human “truth.” While
Flynn’s artistry with words and imagery can mesmerize readers, it is his ability to express
truths which resonate with an audience that raise his work from the personal to the universal.
In Some Ether, the poem Other Meaning is a good example of what Hoagland means
From a pure narrative standpoint, this poem is about the author recounting a childhood
experience of coming home from a drive-in with his mother and brother. It is also about
Flynn’s memories of sitting in a chair while an adult party swirls around him, and of being
ejected from a car (and later from the house) by his mother. But the title, Other Meaning,
immediately asks the reader to think metaphorically about the content of the poem. Flynn’s
The title, Other Meaning, is pulled from the body of the poem (line 17) in specific
reference to the word “maroon.” First there is the meaning of “maroon” as the color of the
chair the child Flynn is seated in, and then the “other meaning” of being stranded at sea in
lifeboats, and in Flynn’s case, precariously so. The second meaning exposes in metaphor
Flynn’s personal experience of a childhood inside “inadequate lifeboats” where the family is
adrift, in danger, and “left to drink their own piss/&pull gulls from the sky” for sustenance.
Besides the title referencing the specific word, “maroon,” there are of course “other
meaning(s)” possible for almost every word in the piece. For instance, the word “home,”
viewed in a metaphorical context has many meanings that could include self, safety, family, or
a feeling of comfort and familiarity. On a spiritual plane, “home” can mean “heaven” or “God”
or “oneness” or “peace.” The line, “How far to home?” hangs hauntingly in the air, while the
description of the son being sent from the house has decidedly biblical overtones—“Once she
cast me out.”
While not every childhood is traumatic, Flynn expresses feelings that all children have
as they make their first efforts to confront the adult world, feelings about separateness,
dependence, and being at the mercy of an adult world that is at best confusing, at worst violent
or even lethal. As a child I was never left by the side of the road by my mother, nor kicked out
of the house naked in winter, but I identify with the feeling of being powerless to the decisions
and actions of someone who holds dominion over me, someone upon whom my survival
depends.
Some Ether was Flynn’s first book, and my personal favorite. Mark Doty called it “… a
startling, moving debut.” The judges for the 1999 Pen/Joyce Osterweil Award for Poetry said
in their official statement, “If the poems stand ‘close to tragedy,’ as Flynn puts it, they also
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embody the act of survival: syntax and line conspire to pull us past the event, beyond the
struggle…At once reckless and demure, outrageous and delicate, Some Ether promises
Flynn captures and collages childhood and adult experiences in Some Ether with a
“1967,” Flynn writes about his mother’s various boyfriends, “She opens the car door & bends
into the overhead light but before his lips/can graze her cheek the door closes/& the light goes
out./They sit inside & fill it with smoke./It looks creamy in the winter night, like amber, or a
newfound galaxy./I know cigarettes can kill & wonder why she wants to die.” (8) And from
Father Outside, “It is night &/ it’s snowing & starlings fill the trees above us, so many it
seems/the leaves sing…I wait for his breath/to lift his blanket/so I know he’s alive…” (48)
In our recent interview I told Flynn that I thought Some Ether and Another Bullshit
Night in Suck City were like different sides of the same coin, and he agreed, saying they were
just different forms of addressing the same material. Part of what makes the memoir successful
is that it also holds true to the same formula mentioned earlier: anecdote and metaphor
Like so many recent memoirs, Another Bullshit Night in Suck City depicts a journey of
the self through the examination of one’s parentage and all the layered implications of those
relationships. Flynn’s experience is of course more traumatic than most, with a mother who
commits suicide and a father who is absent, alcoholic, and homeless. Unlike most popular
memoirs, Flynn does not employ a linear narrative to tell his story, instead he collages his
experiences together from short chapters comprised of memories, stories, language pieces, and
even a one-act play. Flynn’s prose incorporates his skill and experience as a poet. Note the
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alliteration in the following description taken from Another Bullshit Night in Suck City: “Inside
the shelter the tension is inescapable— the walls exude cigarette smoke and anxiety. The air is
thick, stale, dreamy, though barely masking the overpowering smell of stale sweat.” (30) The
adroit use of repetition, pacing, tension and rhythm can be seen in the first paragraph of the
book:
Please, she whispers, how may I help you? The screen lights up with her
voice. A room you enter, numbers you finger, heated, sterile almost. The
phone beside her never rings, like a toy, like a prop. My father lifts the
receiver in the night, speaks into it, asks, Where’s the money? asks, Why
can’t I sleep? asks, Who left me outside?(3)
These opening lines are another good example of Flynn’s skill with anecdote and
metaphor. We see Flynn’s homeless father hanging out late at night in an enclosed ATM
striking image, a snapshot of one man’s father at the bottom of the proverbial barrel. It is also a
In Another Bullshit Night in Suck City a life raft has a recurring role, echoing the
lifeboat’s appearance in Other Meaning from Some Ether. While the lifeboat in Other Meaning
is laden with fear and doubts of survival against the elements, the function of the life raft of
Another Bullshit Night in Suck City is to save people. The life raft is woven through the entire
book, first as an example of another one of Flynn’s father’s lies and exaggerations, then as a
symbol of hope. Flynn’s father claims in the beginning of the book that his father (Flynn’s
grandfather) invented the life raft. Near the end of Another Bullshit Night in Suck City, Flynn
discovers that a patent was indeed issued to his grandfather for the life raft. It is this discovery
of truth in all the murkiness of his father’s stories and life that is one of the most moving events
in Flynn’s memoir. While not making anything better, or bringing anything to any resolution,
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the truth of the life raft is sustaining, “The problem was to keep the body above the waves. The
trick was to breathe only air. My grandfather’s patent was used by seven countries during both
World Wars. Thousands of heads floating about the waves. I’ll be damned.” (328)
Some Ether and Another Bullshit Night in Suck City are both, at their core, about being
adrift. Flynn’s childhood was precarious and without roots and lead to an adulthood that was
equally tumultuous and ungrounded. One does not get the sense with either book that Flynn
has come to any sort of magical or therapeutic closure about his childhood and parents. Prior to
our interview, Flynn spoke to me about how he did not find any sort of “resolution” from
writing the two books, that he did not have some big “Aha!” Anne Sexton echoes this
sentiment. In an interview with William Packard she said, “You don’t solve problems in
writing. They are still there. I’ve heard psychiatrists say, ‘See, you’ve forgiven your father in
your poem.’ But I haven’t forgiven my father; I just wrote that I did.” (17-18) And Colette Inez
has this to say: “Although I don’t think of poetry as therapy, as a prescribed remedy for
sorrows, the act of writing can bring clarity to what seems blurred, and may sometimes rescue
The reader however does attain a sense of resolution (and hope) from Some Ether and
Another Bullshit Night in Suck City, which I think also helps explain the books’ popularity. The
resolution and hope does not come from the content of the books, but from the very existence
of the books themselves and it is gratifying to see that they have received critical praise and
garnered awards. Despite the harrowing circumstances of his life, Flynn has become the
entirely. It is a book about bees and beekeeping in the 18th century as told through many
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voices, both human and personified nature. Blind Huber is an act of creative obsession by
Flynn’s own admission and a break from the content of his own life, though Flynn’s personal
experiences still seep through this collection. In one poem, Wax Father, one cannot help but
And in Workers (lost), there is his mother: “Nothing/to return to, the queen dead, I /pressed
against her until her eyes/hung empty. Afterwards,/the hive full of strangers,/none remained
In Flynn’s surreal world of bees, hives, flowers and 18th century men speaking, one is
more quickly drawn into metaphor and allegory than in the other two books. Blind Huber
intertwines the perspectives of the blind scholar, his devoted assistant and different parts of
nature to explore concepts of power, dominion, relationships, life, survival, and death. Like
Some Ether and Another Bullshit Night in Suck City, Blind Huber exposes life, raises questions
I was surprised to find Blind Huber as violent as both Some Ether or Another Bullshit
Night in Suck City. Because the bees, other animals, and nature are all personified, their
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violence is felt in human terms by the reader. In Workers (guards) a skunk attacks a hive and is
in turn bludgeoned by suicide bees who pump him full of venom in their death throes. In
Workers (attendants) Flynn’s bees freeze to death and their corpses lay against their living
brothers “like a shawl.” (10) In Drones, the bees speak of the actions of their queen, “First she
will kill the other virgins, those/unborn, a spike/ to the head.” (19) And in Statuary, bees
Blind Huber also exposes power dynamics in a stark, unflinching manner. Every
character in the book is seen in a power dynamic with every other character. For example,
Huber exerts fierce control over his assistant Burnens. In Blind Huber (ii), Huber says,
“Burnens’ hands, my words/make them move. I say, plunge them into the hive,/& his hands go
in. If I said,/put your head inside,/he would wear it.” At the same time, the servant Burnens
welds power over his master. In Burnens (i) we are told that, “My ruler/measures the gap, I
count each worker/& feed him the number. His words/move my hands, but I name/what is
seen.” (p. 59) Perhaps part of Huber’s violent tinged descriptions of ordering Burnens to do
things is the anger he feels at his own ultimate dependence on Burnens to see and to negotiate
everyday life.
The world of the bees is also fraught with power dynamics and dependency. The queen
rules the hive with a vengeance, killing virgins at the same time birthing the next generation of
bees. Yet the queen’s very existence is dependent on the other bees, as she states in Virgin
Queen, “The nurses feed me from their own/mouths/& I am changed,/made essential.” (17)
There is also a power dynamic between the queen and man. In Queen, the queen speaks
authoritatively to man, “You take our honey/because we let you. We pollinate the
fields/because we are the fields.” At the same time the queen acknowledges man’s ability to
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“…seek me out with gloved fingers/and crush my head.” (14). And everyone in the book is at
the mercy of powers greater then themselves: Huber to the scarlet fever that took his sight,
Burnens to the circumstance of his position, and the bees to weather, man, skunks, possums
and mites.
While people I’ve spoken to about Flynn’s work, including Flynn himself, mostly
speak as if Blind Huber is completely divergent from autobiographical material, I do not agree.
about the themes of Flynn’s three books: Some Ether treats remembrance, angst, sadness, and
love; Another Bullshit Night is Suck City is concerned with analysis and storytelling, and Blind
Huber with the dynamics of power, anger, and offers a cynical examination of faith. (Specific
examples of the question of faith can be found in Wax (Jesus), Xenophon’s Soldiers, Without,
and in the epigraph of an Islamic folktale at the beginning of the third section of the book.)
I also think Huber’s 50 years of intense, devoted study and record-keeping of the world
of bees, is analogous with how Flynn speaks of how his own years of examining and writing
about his life felt. Tormented, isolated, obsessive and fiercely committed to putting down on
How does a writer know if he or she has entered into a realm of universal truths through
autobiography? Part of that answer I think, can be found in the writer’s relationship with the
reader. When someone other than the author is moved by the piece and finds in it something of
himself/herself, then it is no longer me, me, me—it is me and you. Before our interview, Flynn
spoke about the hundreds of encounters (in person, letters, email) he has had with readers of
his books and while there were some that reached out to complement and to marvel at the
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artistry of his work, the majority of people wanted to connect with him in order to tell him,
Of course there are all kinds of writing that have a large readership but do not reflect
the values attributed to literature/poetry. Flynn spoke despairingly to me about The Da Vinci
Code, bemoaning the general population’s ability and desire to read “bad writing.” While The
Da Vinci Code is, as far as I know, in no way autobiographical material, it is worth noting that
the Dan Browns, Robert Ludlums, and Stephen Kings of the world do tap into some sort of
universal human experience, though the universality is probably more along the lines of a
shared appreciation for the thrill of a roller coaster ride then any grappling with love or death
or pain or the existence of God. Walter Benjamin would probably call it the universal desire for
“distraction” as he identifies in his essay, The Work of Art in the Age of Mechanical
Reproduction, “the masses seek distraction whereas art demands concentration…” (Section
XV) Today, more than ever, we live in a culture that is for the most part on continuous fast
forward. We have become the fruition of early Marxist theorists’ predictions of ever increasing
class disparity and the powerful few exploiting and corrupting technology. As a culture, we are
hindered by the enormous gap between the haves and the have-nots; a substantial portion of the
populace spend most of their waking hours working underpaid and meaningless jobs, and we
live in constant unease thanks to threats of terrorism and global warming. Brainless distraction
distraction may be a current human need, it is never about seeking the universal truths that can
be found in art.
When an author is able to write about personal experiences in a manner that attracts
readers not intent on “checking out” or “taking a break” from their lives, and those readers
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respond introspectively to the material (again, Benjamin’s “concentration”), then that writer
has expressed some truth that transcends the personal. Whether the writing achieves the
standards of craft and artistry that are expected of literature or poetry, or whether the writing
can withstand the test of time, is another matter. Flynn is an author who has been able to write
about personal experience in a manner that attracts a readership, touches people, makes people
think, and receives the approval of critics, academics, and award distributors. That is a
combination that reminds me of a phrase often chanted by a 70 year old man named Victor
who lived on the streets in Boston when Flynn and I both worked at Pine Street: That’s the
I’ve seen Flynn on and off over the past 20 years since Pine Street. We both lived in
New York during many of the same years; he studying for his MFA from NYU and me
continuing work with people experiencing homelessness. Before I interviewed Flynn, I had
only seen him once since the publication of Another Bullshit Night in Suck City and his
subsequent success.
Three years ago, with an advance from Another Bullshit Night in Suck City, Flynn
bought a dilapidated 1880’s Victorian house in upstate New York and renovated it. I was glad
that Flynn was available to do an interview in person and that I opted to make the four hour
drive from my home in Vermont because it seemed important to me to see Flynn’s new home
As Flynn showed me around the two story house that sits on a quiet tree-lined street,
there was scant evidence of the wreck he initially purchased. Instead there were bright open
rooms, soft colors, lovely woodwork, and minimal, tasteful furnishing. “We bought an entire
sycamore tree” Flynn said in the kitchen and pointed out the beautiful matching wood cabinets
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and counter tops. The sycamore shows up in other rooms too, as the dining room table top, and
the coffee table in the living room, creating a synergy and compatibility between rooms.
The downstairs bathroom could be right out of a home design magazine with its
freestanding claw foot bathtub, white pedestal sink, and gauzy curtains undulating in the
breeze. A wooden shelf runs the length of one wall and is adorned with a Buddha figure,
incense and candles, and found items precisely placed in what can only be described as a
collage piece: a bird’s nest on a forked stick, an animal skull, a smooth egg shaped grey and
white speckled stone, and three framed hand written notes on yellowed paper.
This bathroom was where the former house owner said he “kept the retard” that lived
with him. “Look,” said Flynn, “you can still see where the bars we sawed off used to be in the
windows and where the panes in the door had been kicked out from the inside.” In a way that is
all Flynn, the shadow of the “retard” in his barred cell trying to kick his way out has somehow
The house in general and the downstairs bathroom in particular reminded me of other
living situations Flynn had been in: his 1939 Chris-Craft boat in Provincetown and Boston and
the loft space on LaGrange Street in Boston’s Combat Zone. Both the boat and the loft space
were broken down shells of their former selves, barely usable and certainly not livable, when
they came into Flynn’s hands. Yet the boat, the loft space, and now the Victorian each had
some element of history and beauty that Flynn could see, or feel, underneath the broken planks,
shattered windows, layers and layers of filth, old paint, and debris.
Stanley Kunitz who was a mentor and friend of Flynn’s, had a similar sensibility about
being in the world beyond writing (which of course included writing). Kunitz dabbled in
sculpting, incorporating found items into collage pieces. Kunitz was also an avid gardener. In
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an interview with Francine Ringold, Kunitz spoke about being a gardener in a way that also
references his work as a writer (and could easily be about Flynn’s renovation works and his
In the corner of Flynn’s backyard there is a cracked plaster statue of some nondescript
male historical figure that could perhaps be George Washington or could be Christopher
Columbus. The torso of the statue is missing large chunks of plaster, giving a view of a hollow
interior and emitting an eerie feel that is part shell of something, part ghost. Flynn said the
statue was sitting on a pile of garbage in the street when he found it. I could see how anyone
else on the planet would have called it junk and not thought twice about throwing it out. Flynn
saw something though and brought it home. He says, “It’s Johnny Cash.”
While sitting on the back deck with a cup of tea watching the sun lift the morning
shadow off the garden, a beam of sunlight struck Johnny in the corner of the yard where he is
installed. Framed by a weathered wooden slate fence, green vines curling up against his
cracked form, and the morning light illuminating his face, Johnny was breathtakingly beautiful.
How could anyone have thrown such a piece out and not seen what Flynn saw? The height of
the chair I was sitting in, the flavor of the tea, the arrangement of the plants in the yard, and the
sun-kissed face of Johnny—I was in a Flynn-made scene: caught in a moment where every
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element was in harmony with every other element, and the discarded broken past was
The following is a transcript of my interview with Flynn the night of July 18th, 2006:
I’ve read that regardless of your creative nonfiction writing, you still consider yourself a
“poet”.
Oh, just my impulses in writing. I am much more drawn to certain compression and
distillation of language. Generally the stuff I write dwells more with what is unknown
than what is known. It doesn’t start from a place of what I know and what I want to
present to you. It is more like grappling with ethereal mysterious, maybe even in
broader mysteries.
No, I think prose is the same. I think it comes from the same impulse. I think that
memoir is just thinly veiled poetry. I think more people buy it if you don’t call it poetry.
I thought Some Ether and Another Bullshit Night in Suck City were like different sides to the
same coin.
Yes. Another Bullshit Night…was a different way to tell it with more narrative
connective tissue. A longer narrative requires more connections, and that was part of
the challenge.
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Do you have a preference between one form and the other? Is it easier to write one or the
other?
Yeah, I like hybrid pieces. Writing stuff in the middle is what I’m interested in at the
moment; stuff that is somehow harder to classify. I was just working with Lydia Davis
and Claudia Rankine. We were teaching at NYU in June. Lydia Davis writes these
incredible short stories that are shorter than some of my poems. I was there as a
nonfiction writer and Claudia was there as a poet. Claudia’s last book was ostensibly
poetry, yet her poetry is actually dealing with nonfiction issues like stuff out of the
newspaper. All of us are crossing genres. I think the distinction is getting very blurry
When did you realize you wanted to write poetry? Did you have an “aha”?
It was more like I realized I wasn’t suited to write fiction. I was trying to write fiction. I
was at a workshop at Harvard Extension, the adult education thing. I was living in
Boston and I was working with the homeless then. The guy that was leading the
workshop, the first thing he said was, “The first rule of fiction is that there are no rules
for fiction.” Then I brought this piece into the workshop, and he said, “Remember what
I said last week? Well, there actually are a couple of rules of fiction, and you’ve broken
them. These are things you really can’t do.” And I thought, “Shit, this is what I’m
interested in.”
Basically I just had a poetic impulse. It was very self-conscious. I like things that show
their seams, that question the whole idea of writing. The workshop leader said you
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could do anything as long as you maintain a suspended disbelief— that the writing is an
artifice.
I was really interested in questioning that, which you can do in poetry. I was also
interested in time and how poetry moves through time. You can move through eons in
one line of a poem. Rilke moves from minutiae to the universe in less than a line. I just
don’t know many fiction writers that can do that because I don’t think fiction moves as
quickly. The transitions in fiction are more meant to create a scene, where as poetry
evokes a scene.
No actually. I took a class at U-Mass when I was probably like 22. That was with James
There were a lot of poets. Before I even went to school, there was (like for everyone)
Bukowski. Bukowski was the first. If you are young and drinking, you read Bukowski.
Actually I’ve gone back to Bukowski recently to teach, because now I’m teaching
people who are young and drinking. You go back and realize this is what speaks to
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them. And it is interesting stuff. There’s a certain energy to it and voice that is strong. It
Then there’s Ginsburg, early Ginsburg, and Beat stuff. I was reading a lot of fiction too
at the time. But in the University when I first started reading books of poetry, the first
book that was important to me was Carolyn Forche’s A Country between Us. That book
In an interview you did with Jess Sauer (The Austin Chronicle), you said one of the benefits of
writing in a memoir format, was that readers don’t go down the road of thinking something is
“metaphor” when it isn’t, like your father being homeless for example. You said that it was
really important to you to point out that it was read as “the truth?”
Yes, just the central story to it. I mean there is a lot of metaphoric language around it
and that comes off of it. You have to have a solid central line of things that are true.
That’s the big problem with what James Fry did; he didn’t even get the center of truth
right, he sort of made it all up. And that’s a problem, a real problem. The central truth is
a contract with the reader. And then you can obviously go off onto any sort of tangents
If someone found out at this point that my father was actually a golf pro and not
You said in the Sauer article that in Some Ether people weren’t buying it that your father had
actually been homeless?
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They couldn’t wrap their minds around it. I think the mind can only contain so much.
And it seems that somehow there isn’t enough space in the brain for the word “father”
and the word “homeless.” From what I’ve encountered in general, those two things
don’t exist in the same brain pan. One at a time. So if you put them together, it causes
It’s the same now with torture. I’m writing about torture and I find the same thing
happens. Take the phrase, “America equals torture,” people just have a hard time
keeping that in their heads even though it is on the front page of the newspaper
everyday. Legalized torture in America, Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, the president saying
Where did you get the idea for Blind Huber and can you tell me a little about it?
It just became an obsession. It just sparked one day. Sort of like this one, this torture
one, it just sort of sparked one day. Then you’re fucked. Then you’re stuck with it.
Yes, six years. It’s just random really. The mind needed an obsession.
Why bees?
That’s the thing about obsessions. You don’t choose them. A guy at a dinner party
sitting next to me was a beekeeper and he started speaking rhapsodically about bees. I
I didn’t realize how big it was. There is a lot written about it, especially ancient stuff,
which is fascinating. So I got to do some research, and that was good after the first
book. I could ostensibly be exterior with the persona poems. It’s nice to do persona
Well, it’s all interior. The poems are all interior, but they’re done through a persona.
They’re absurd in some ways: flowers talking, hives talking, everything is speaking you
I was sort of just following it. I was thinking about bees and I was at McDowell, and I
went and visited this guy who was a beekeeper in New Hampshire. I drove up to see
him and saw the hives. The poems weren’t coming really well, I was just sort of writing
about the bees. At then at the very end of my stay I was desperate and this one poem
came out in the voice of a bee. I was really embarrassed about it and thought, “Oh
that’s really fucked up.” But it was the best thing I’d written, the best poem after a
I was really embarrassed and put it away. I was thinking, “We won’t go there.” And the
next day another one came out, and then three came out. They started coming out in the
You know, it was embarrassing and that’s always a good sign. If you are ashamed of
what you are doing, it is a very good sign. You should always be ashamed of what you
are doing. If you feel good about what you are doing, it probably sucks.
Stanley Kunitz said some very nice things about Blind Huber.
Oh I don’t know. He said, “…a work of the creative imagination unlike any other…”
What does that mean? It doesn’t necessarily mean it’s good. It’s not saying it’s good,
it’s just saying it’s unlike any other. It could mean it is like, bad.
I knew Stanley (I feel like I still know Stanley) for about 16 years.
Stanley was a huge influence on me, one of the big ones. Stanley was many, many
things. Not just wise and incredibly insightful, though part of it was that. Anytime I met
with him, anytime I had a conversation with him something would come up that I
would spend the next year or two years wrestling with, trying to figure out what he
meant. Like he said, “Tension is essential to all art.” I’ve actually been trying to figure
out what that means for like three years—no, more than that. He said it a long time ago.
I’ve actually actively been trying to teach it and figure out how you find tension in art.
There were always moments with him, sort of endless moments. Just his way of being
in the world was so profound. His connection to something was also like Rilke you
Did you ever talk about his father’s suicide? Was there a connection between you two because
of that?
We never spoke about it, but I think clearly that that was part of our connection. I don’t
remember ever really going into it directly with him. I think we talked about that stuff
in our poems to each other. I said what I had to say in the poems to him. There wasn’t
much more to say to him about it. I’d probably say more to my therapist.
At different times I would bring him stuff. He’d always asked for that too. He’d say,
“Let me see what you are working on.” You’d bring him a poem, or a couple poems.
He was a paradigm of generosity, and also committed to creating a tribe. You felt like
you were connected with him to this large history of poetry and the history of the whole
culture of poetry. Sustaining a community seems really important. That’s what I like
Stanley was amazing. He started the Fine Arts Works Center in Provincetown, he
started the Poets House in New York. He was responsible for awhile for choosing the
Yale Series of Younger Poets. Look who he chose, it was incredible. Robert Hass,
Carolyn Forche, Olga Broumas… He had this eye for something about female poets.
He cultivated a whole generation in a certain way. It was probably just that he was
attuned to the fact that women were leading the way in a certain manner in poetry. It
seems like sometimes now, a lot of the innovative stuff, stuff that is pushing the art
Anne Carson, C.D.Wright, Brenda Hillman, Marie Howe, Carolyn Forche, Harryette
Mullen.
I’ve seen you referred to as “post-confessional,” what do you think about that?
Sure, I’ll take it. That was Tony Hoagland’s piece I think. He’s a sweet guy.
It’s again about not assuming something. There is post-modern and then post-
modernism and applying them to confessionalism; which means that you have some
self-consciousness about what you are doing about the “I”, or the “I” of the construct.
You are trying to tell a story, but you have to question the story you are trying to tell.
You can’t just take it for granted that this is the truth-- it is an artifice.
I just finished reading Coetzee again: Waiting for the Barbarians. I’m all torture all the
No, no one is writing about torture. Well, Matthea Harvey has a new book coming out,
which is very interesting. I heard her read from it and there was some stuff about terror.
Odes to Terror-- or something. I thought they were great. There’s also Douglas A.
Are there any kinds of poetry or other kinds of writing that you do not write?
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There was a writer at this workshop, his name is Tony Door. He’s a great writer. He did
this thing where he broke down the first page of The Da Vinci Code to get a close
reading of it. It is such bad writing that the exercise was just fun. And it was interesting
because you can also be lulled by the writing and think, “It’s fine, it’s a page turner, it
goes quickly…”
No, I wouldn’t read that thing. Everyone says, “It’s bad writing, but it’s a page turner!”
But you look at the first page and it is such bad writing. It is mind blowing. It is
distressing that people eat it with a spoon. It’s the same with James Fry. I mean with
James Fry, half the country will swear to you that it is the best book they’ve every read,
yet I can only assume that means it’s the only book they’ve ever read-- which by
definition would be the best book they’ve ever read. I defy you to find a good sentence
in James Fry.
Alice Munro. She’s fantastic. She’s popular, right? And Francine Prose. There are all
sorts of great writers out there. They just don’t sell in the mega millions usually. Only
the really bad shit sells in the mega millions. It seems, anyway. I don’t know why that
is.
We are doing fine. Poetry is doing fine. More and more poets every year are getting
read.
Why are people reading more poetry? More MFA programs. More people getting
exposed to it. Every year more people get exposed to it. It’s geometric; it’s like how a
Is a person a born poetry enthusiast, or can you teach an appreciation for poetry?
You can teach it. You have to get people excited about it; you have to lead them in. I
probably wouldn’t give them Harryette Mullen first. But by the end of the semester, I’d
give them Harryette Mullen. They’d get it by then because by then they’d be ready for
it.
Richard Siken’s book “Crush.” That’s a nice book to start with. It’s a pretty great book.
I wouldn’t say it is “accessible.” It has a certain narrative energy to it that people are
familiar with. I wouldn’t call that “accessible” necessarily. It is about gay S and M
relationships so I don’t know how accessible that is, particularly since I teach in
Texas… I’m kidding. Siken is great. He came to Texas. He’s big in Texas. People
I was always impressed, back in the Pine Street days, how you were so committed to your
writing. You would have these blocks of time during the day you scheduled for writing, and
you were very dedicated to them. Remember? Do you still do that?
I write differently now. I do write everyday, just differently. Like today I jotted stuff
down in my notebook on the way to therapy in my car. You write when you can.
Things are coming together; they’re just coming together in a different sort of way now.
A lot of my process before was daily writing in notebooks and I was focused. I needed
I’m gearing up to do my next thing; I’m structuring the piece now. I’m doing it a
completely different way. Rather than writing free and then trying to find the shape
afterwards, I’m actually finding the shape and then I’m going to fill it in.
I like to do each book differently. I figure I’ll do this one differently as well.
What’s the shape, or are you still in the middle of thinking about it?
Yeah, I’m still thinking about it. It might actually be loosely based on the form that I’ve
seen in another book that attracts me: Claudia Rankine’s Don’t Let Me Be Lonely. I
think that for what I’m doing, that seems like a nice container.
She writes in short prose sections. It’s ostensible poetry, but includes prose passages. It
is also Rankine’s tone— in fact it is almost the tone more than the form I like. Taking
these large political events and filtering them through an individual consciousness. Not
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like saying, “This is the way it is” and making large pronouncements, but, “This is the
way it affects me.” I like that. It seems like a good way to write political poetry.
Do other people read your work when you are in process? Who are your readers?
I don’t know who they are now. They change with different projects. I don’t know who
my readers will be for this project. A lot of times I’ll start reading new stuff at readings,
little experimental things, and someone who is there that I know will come up and say,
“That’s interesting” and I’ll send them a couple of pages. Maybe it is something like
I know many people have commented on your ability to write about harrowing life situations
without self-pity. You have responded in several different interviews regarding Another
Bullshit Night in Suck City that there were previous drafts of that book that were filled with
anger and self-pity. It sounded to me that part of your writing process might be getting it all out
on the page, then going back and cutting… Is that true?
I might have just said that to those interviewers. I don’t think I have a self pitying bone
in my body.
Seriously though, when you say “my writing process,” I don’t know what my writing
process is. It changes with each book. The only thing I know for sure is that you should
not feel like you are doing the right thing. That’s the only thing that remains consistent.
So the thing with torture right now that I’m doing, I think I’m on the right track because
I feel like it is really the wrong thing to be doing. Everything else, besides that feeling,
is different with each piece. For everything else there is no blueprint. There is no
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questioning with this piece, “Am I putting a lot of self-pity into this?” No, because it
isn’t a book ostensibly about myself. And I don’t think it will get to a place of
anger…of course there will probably be anger in it. But anger, it’s one of those
things… I think there is a lot of anger in Another Bullshit Night… it’s just that it’s
veiled.
You want to write in such a way that the reader comes to whatever emotions they need
to come to. I like it when I hear that readers have come away either disorientated or
angry or weeping. And if you look at the page, you can’t really point to the spot where
it happened, the emotion just suddenly starts to build in you. That’s what seems
important: how to get it on the page without seeing it. That’s the trick.
There are all sorts of different ways of doing it. Find all that stuff people talk about.
You know, T.S. Eliot, Johnny Keats, negative capability, objective correlatives…
An objective correlative is having an object that contains the emotion, like a fetish
object, which is what we do anyway with our lives. You put all your hopes and dreams
into a car or something, just because you don’t know where else to put it. In your
writing you have moments of that, but you can’t have the whole book be objective
correlatives.
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You sort of learn from all these people, you learn what you can from all these different
writers and takes what makes sense to you. So for me, from T.S. Eliot, it’s like that,
moments of that.
There is a piece in the book, Another Bullshit Night… at the end of Piss of God, where
it says, “…a la-z-y boy, my lord, maybe not again in this lifetime.” I would just get
choked up reading that out loud, and I wouldn’t even know why. I still don’t know why
mysterious. I don’t get choked up now reading it, but it still seems powerful to me in
the way that is pretty mysterious. I read it a lot actually, that piece, at readings, and it
does, it seems like a powerful ending, for some unspeakable way. If I had said at the
end, like “I wonder if I’ll ever see my father again” it would be bullshit. It would be
absolute bullshit. But if you say, “…a la-z-y boy, my lord, maybe not again in this
lifetime...” Even though I don’t think that is what it is saying, it’s not saying “I will
never see my father again,” I don’t what it is saying. I have no idea what it is saying. It
is just some weird statement that contains a lot of energy. And you have to find those
and they are really hard to find. How do you teach someone that? I don’t know. You
teach them to write a lot and then find the ones that are mysterious that they don’t
understand and then trust it. That’s all you can do.
You said in an interview you did with Robert Birnbaum that you write “books of poems, not
individual poems.” Can you talk a little bit more about this?
Now I’m writing individual poems. I’m writing a lot of poems now that don’t seem to
But that was true of Some Ether and Blind Huber, they were “books of poems,” but that’s not
what you are doing now?
Yes, that’s true. But I don’t know what I’m doing now. I don’t think I’ll do the same
Do you like working together with other people in collaboration? You recently just taught a
course, Collaboration with the Arts at the University of Houston?
I taught that twice now. I’ll probably teach it again next spring.
I love it. I think it is really great. It’s wild, so wild. It’s like a wild class. I do sort of
trust the process. You have to be both very rigorous and intuitive at the same time so I
like that tension. As a teacher you have to be rigorous and be like, “What are we doing
here?” but you have to allow for all this intuitive, spontaneous stuff to come into it.
20 people sign up for the class, musicians, artists, writers, dancers. There are four
instructors, we divide them up. There is some sort of date where “something” is to be
done. My last group was based on Houston buses, so we met on the Houston buses. We
also had a studio. We’d go back to the studio and process what we did on the bus.
Not all the time. Sometimes. It takes a lot of energy, but I generally like it. It’s like that
whole Stanley thing, it just seems like it is part of the job. The ability or the chance to
see that is really inspiring. To see people push into something that they didn’t know
In this collaboration class, we created this whole other art form that really felt
collaborative. I was like, “My god, what is this thing?” It was something I’d never seen
Yeah, I don’t write. It takes too much energy. It’s hard to write when you are teaching.
It’s two different muscles it seems like. It’s hard. People do it.
Oh yeah. I always start with something that I don’t really know too well and make it a
Do certain issues of craft keep coming up with students? Are there some issues that always
float to the top?
You have to know how to write descriptive passages and how to craft an image. On
some level even if you never write using images, you should actually have that facility I
think. Usually I often start with that in classes. It is so shocking the level of pure
abstraction. And pure abstraction isn’t bad if it is coming from a certain place. But
often a younger poet’s abstractions are like pure unfiltered emotion that just needs to be
I see that in a poem, when things veer into abstraction. There are poets that deal purely
Expository writing. Yeah, that’s pretty bad. A lot of people get lost in that. People
know it too, because they can’t even read their own expository writing. It’s the stuff
when you write it that you don’t even bother reading over again, because you know it’s
boring and it’s just giving people information. So you train people: if it’s a part where
you get to and your mind goes a little blank, just imagine what the poor fucking reader
is going through. If you can’t even read your own fucking writing…
Tension is another one that you have to look for, points of tension, transitions, what’s
I noticed you’re going to be teaching an entire workshop on tension, can you talk a little about
that?
Not really. I don’t even know what I’m going to teach now because I’m sort of over
that (“tension”). I’m going to call the workshop, “Bewilderment.” I sort of think
bewilderment might even be way above tension. I’m making a whole chart now, this
whole representation of these things. I think bewilderment might be above tension, and
Bewilderment is where the point in the poem where you have to push into the
unknown. You have a place where it’s the threshold to the subconscious. You get down
what you know, and then you get to the point of what you don’t know, what sort of
throws you. You know, what you haven’t been able to say. You try to find that point. A
lot of times you can find it where you revert to abstractions. That’s a point you’ve lost
your nerve. When you find it, then you write into it. Say what you haven’t said.
There are a lot of different things. I did a whole week on it, so there are all sorts of
What are some of the projects you are currently working on?
There’s the torture poems… And there’s this film I worked on, Darwin’s Nightmare.
An Academy Award nomination for Best Documentary, right? Did you go to the Academy
Awards show?
Yes. It wasn’t very fun. It was one of the most lifeless rooms I’ve ever been in. But it
Yes. I’ve done a lot of screenings for it, question and answer type things. I go when
they can’t get Hubert. It’s not so easy to get him. I mean he’s done so much for it too;
he’s done tons of it. But I’m willing to do some in his stead, if they want me.
Have you written about your experience shooting the movie in Tanzania?
36
Yeah, I’ve written a lot about it. I have to pull it all together into a book.
Oh, I don’t know. It’s hard to say. It is all sort of vague for me. I’m a one day at a time
kind of guy. I just want to figure out what I’m doing. I want to see what happens, what
comes next.
Works Cited
Benjamin, Walter. The Work of Art in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction. 1936.
works/ge/benjamin.htm>
Flynn, Nick. Another Bullshit Night in Suck City. New York: Norton, 2004.
---. Interview with Robert Birbaum. Identity Theory. 22 Mar. 2005. 3 Jul. 2006.
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< http://www.identitytheory.com/interviews/birnbaum158.php
---. Interview with Jess Sauer. The Austin Chronicle. 29 Oct. 2004. 6 Jul. 2006.
< http://www.austinchronicle.com/gyrobase/Issue/story?oid=oid%3A235106>
Hoagland, Tony. Rev. of Some Ether Poems by Nick Flynn. Ploughshares. Fall 2000: 224.
Inez, Colette. “Family Talk: Confessional Poet? Not Me.” After Confession: Poetry as
Autobiography. Eds. David Graham and Kate Sontag. Saint Paul: Graywolf, 2001.
Kunitz, Stanley. Interview with Francine Ringold. Interviews and Encounters with Stanley
Levertov, Denise. Interview with Nicholas O’Connell. “A Poet’s Valediction.” Poets &
Sexton, Anne. Interview with William Packard. The Poet’s Craft: Interviews from The New
York Quarterly. Ed. William Packard. New York: toExcel Press, 2000.