June24,2005

InterviewwithSwamiDayananda
Introduction
ItisauniquecharacteristicofAdvaitaVedantathatmostofitsprominentmodernfigures,thosewhostand
outasradiantexamplesofthepowerandgloryofAbsoluterealization,generallyseemtohavehadlittle,if
any,formaltraditionaltraining.RamanaMaharshi,forinstance,probablythemostuniversallyrecognized
teacherofAdvaitainthetwentiethcentury,wasspontaneouslyenlightenedattheageofsixteenwithno
priorspiritualpracticeorstudy.ThefieryAdvaitamasterandauthorofIAmThat,SriNisargadatta
Maharaj,realizedtheAbsoluteafteronlythreeyearswithhisguru.Andinspeakingwithanumberof
contemporaryAdvaitateachersforthisissue,wewereintriguedtofindthatonethingalmostallofthese
individualshaveincommonisastrikingindependencefromthemonasticorders,teachingsystemsand
sacredtextsoftheverytraditionfromwhichtheirteachingsspring.
ButAdvaitaVedantais,infact,a1,300yearoldtraditionthattracesitsrootsevenfurtherbacktothe
Upanishads,acollectionofdivinelyinspiredscripturesover2,500yearsold.EmbodyingtheHindu
philosophyofnonduality,whichholdsthatonlytheoneAbsolute,undividedSelfisultimatelyreal,
Advaitahasseveralmonasticorders,arichbodyofliteratureandalonghistoryofformalphilosophical
discourse.GiventhatourownexplorationofAdvaitaforthisissueofWIEhadexposedustosucha
diversearrayofcontemporaryteachersandteachings,wehadgrownincreasinglycuriousaboutwhat
someoneclassicallytrainedinthetraditionalmethodsanddoctrinewouldhavetosayinresponsetoour
questions.Itwasourquestforsuchatraditionalistthatultimatelylandedusinthejungleofthesouth
IndianstateofTamilNadu,attheashramofSwamiDayanandaSaraswati.
SwamiDayanandais,byhisowndescription,atraditionalteacherofAdvaitaVedanta.Aclosediscipleof
thewidelyrespectedlateVedantateacherSwamiChinmayananda,hebeganteachingoverthirtyyearsago
afteradisciplinedspiritualsearchthatincludedbothintensivestudyoftheclassicalscripturesandseveral
yearsonretreatintheHimalayanfoothills.Inthattime,hehasgainedanillustriousreputationbothinIndia
andabroadasafierceupholderofthetradition.Hehaspublishedtwentyonebooks,includingseveral
translationsofandcommentariesonthetraditionaltexts,andhasestablishedthreeashrams(twoinIndia
andoneintheUnitedStates)wherehisintensivecoursesinVedantaaretaughtyearround.
SurroundedbyrainforestaboutthirtymilesoutsideCoimbatore,SwamiDayananda'snewestashram,Arsha
VidyaGurukulam,isasprawlingcomplexofhallsanddormitoriescapableofaccommodating
approximatelythreehundredpeople.Atthetimeofourvisittherewereaboutonehundredstudentsin

pg 1 of 14

residenceforathreeyearcourse,includingthirtyorsoWesterners,manyofwhom,welearned,hadleft
behindsuccessfulcareersinordertoattend.Inadditiontohostingtheselonger,residentialcourses,the
ashramalsoreceivesmanydistinguishedshorttermvisitorsincluding,weweretold,someofIndia's
biggestmoviestarsandpoliticalleaders,theformerPresidentofIndiaamongthem.
DuringourfirstdaytherewehadanopportunitytositinonsomeofSwamiDayananda'sclasses,andwhen
wedid,itbecameapparenttousthat,inhisdesiretoperpetuatethetradition,whatSwamiDayanandahas
establishedisnotthecontemplativeretreatenvironmentonemightexpecttofindattheashramofanIndian
guru,butratherasortofspiritualacademy,itsgoalbeingfirstandforemosttheacquisitionofknowledge
aboutVedanta.Students'daysarespentintheclassroom,seatedonthefloorbehindshortwoodendesks,
listeningtoSwamiDayanandareadfromtheancientSanskrittexts,pausingaftereachversetogiveoften
elaboratecommentary.Whenstudentsarenotinclassorengagedintheirashramduties,theyareeither
studyingindependentlyormeetingwithSwamiDayananda,whoinadditiontoteachingthreelongclasses
eachdaymakeshimselfavailablebetweenclassesforlessformaldiscussions.
WhatwefoundmostintriguingaboutSwamiDayananda'sintenselyscholasticapproachwasitsunusual
lackofemphasisonspiritualpractice.Theonlyformalpracticeperiodattheashramisthirtyminutesof
meditationinthemorning.Wewouldsoonlearnthatspiritualpracticeshavenosignificantplaceinthe
programforonesimplereason:toSwamiDayananda,theyareessentiallyirrelevanttothepath.Theone
thingthatisrelevant,hefeels,isstudysincerestudyofthesacredtextsofVedanta.
AccordingtoSwamiDayananda,mostcontemporaryexponentsofAdvaitaVedantaareseriously
misguidedintheirapproach.Hefeelsthatinoveremphasizingthepursuitoftranscendentexperience,they
havemissedtheentirepointoftheancientteachings.IntraditionalAdvaitaVedanta,heasserts,itisheld
thatsacredscriptureitselfistheonlyreliablemeanstoclearawayignoranceandrevealdirectknowledgeof
theAbsolute.Hewrites:"Justastheeyesarethedirectmeanstoknowcolorandform,Vedantaisthe
directmeans...toknowone'struenatureandresolveconfusionsregardingAtma[theSelf]."Itistherefore
onlybyapplyingourselvestoadisciplinedstudyoftherevealedwordsofthegreatsages,hefeels,thatwe
canattaintheknowledgethatwillliberateusfromdelusion.
Fueledbyhisconvictioninthesupremeefficacyofscripturalstudy,SwamiDayanandaisunabashedinhis
criticismof"mystics"whosaythatthewaytoenlightenmentisthroughspiritualexperiencealone.Infact,
bothinhiswritingsandinoneofourdialogueswithhim,heevenwentsofarastoexpressdoubtaboutthe
realizationofthewidelyreveredbutunschooledmodernsageRamanaMaharshiaddingthattheremaybe
millionsofIndianhouseholderswithasimilarlevelofattainment!

pg 2 of 14

Whilesuchstatementsinitiallytookusbysurprise,wewouldlaterdiscoverthroughdialogueswitha
numberofleadingWesternAdvaitascholarsthatsimilarsentimentsareheldbymanyAdvaita
traditionalists.EvenoneofthelivingShankaracharyastheheadofoneofthefourmonasticinstitutions
allegedlyestablishedbyAdvaita'sfounder,ShankaraalsodeniesthevalidityofRamana'sattainment,
apparentlyforthesimplereasonthatsomeonewhowasn'tformallytrainedinVedantacouldn'tpossiblybe
fullyenlightened!
OurvisittoSwamiDayananda'sashramturnedouttobeafascinatingeducation.Overthecourseofour
threedaystay,wemetformallywithSwamiDayanandafourtimesforwhatturnedouttobeawide
rangingseriesofdialogues.Duringthattime,whathadbegunasanashramcuriosityasmallgroupof
WesternerswithanAmericanspiritualteacherwhohadcometointerviewtheirgururapidlyescalated
intooneofthemosttalkedaboutandwellattendedeventsattheashram.Fromoursecondsessiononward,
themeetingroomwasoverflowingoutthedoorasdisciplescrowdedintolistentothediscussion.And
betweenmeetings,weregularlyfoundourselvesinconversationwithstudentseagerbothtodiscusspoints
thathadarisenintheinterviewandtosuggestquestionsforthenextround.
Throughoutthesessions,SwamiDayanandarevealedhimselftobeeverybitthetraditionalistwehad
expected,sharinginhisanswerstoourquestionshiscomprehensiveunderstandingofboththetradition
itselfandthesubtletiesofAdvaitaphilosophy.Yetwhilewelefthisashraminmanyrespectsmuchclearer
aboutthehistoryanddoctrinesoftheAdvaitatradition,ourvisithadalsoraisedsomefascinating
questions.Wasn'titintriguing,wefoundourselvesaskingasourtaximadeitswaybacktotheairport,that
withinatraditiondedicatedtotheprofoundandradicalrealizationoftheAbsolute,therearelearnedand
devotedauthoritieswhofeelcompelledtodistancethemselvesfromthepowerfullyrealizedmysticsto
whommanyofthattradition'sownfollowerslookforinspiration?If,insodoing,theyareupholdingthe
"purity"ofthetradition,whatdoesthatmeanaboutthenatureofenlightenment,towhichtheAdvaitapath
isintendedtolead?
RamanaMaharshisaid,"NolearningorknowledgeofscripturesisnecessarytoknowtheSelf,asnoman
requiresamirrortoseehimself."SwamiDayananda,ontheotherhand,hadjusttoldusthat"wehaveno
meansofknowledgeforthedirectunderstandingofSelfrealization,andthereforeVedantaisthemeansof
knowledgethathastobeemployedforthatpurpose.Noothermeansofknowledgewillwork."
Whatisenlightenment?Isitsimplyashiftinunderstandingthatcanbebroughtabout,asSwami
Dayanandainsists,entirelythroughthestudyofsacredtexts?Orisit,assomeofthemostradiantexamples
ofthispowerfulteachinghaveproclaimed,theworldshatteringrevelationofamysterythatliesforever
beyondthemind?

pg 3 of 14

CraigHamilton

Interview

Theinterviewthatfollowswasexcerptedfromovereightypagesoftranscriptsdocumentingaseriesof
dialoguesbetweenSwamiDayanandaandAndrewCoheninFebruary1998.
WhatisAdvaita?
AndrewCohen:InthelasttwentyyearsorsotherehasbeengreatinterestinAdvaitaintheWest,asyou
know,andit'smyimpressionthattherehasalsobeenalotofconfusionaboutthisteaching,thatithasbeen
verymisunderstoodandevenabusedinsomecases.Wewantedtospeakwithyousothatwecouldpresent
anauthoritativetraditionalview.So,tobegin,couldyoupleaseexplainwhatthephilosophyofAdvaita
Vedantais?
SwamiDayananda:Theword"advaita"isaveryimportantword.It'sawordthatnegatesdvaita,which
means"two."The"a"isanegativeparticle,sothemeaningwouldbe"thatwhichisnondual."Andit
revealsthephilosophythatallthatishereisOne,whichmeansthatthereisnothingotherthanthatOne,
norisitmadeupofanyparts.It'sawholewithoutparts,andThattheycall"Brahman"[theAbsolute],and
Thatyouarebecausethenondualcannotbedifferentfromyou,theinquirer.Ifitisdifferentfromyou,
thenitisdual;thenyouarethesubjectanditistheobject.Soithasgottobeyou.Andtherefore,ifyou
don'trecognizethat,you'llmissoutonbeingtheWhole.
AC:Canyoupleaseexplainthehistoricalbackground?
SD:TheVedas[sacredHinduscriptures]arethemostancientbodyofknowledgewehaveinhumanity.
AndthetraditionlooksupontheVedasasnothavingbeenauthoredbyanygivenperson,butgiventothe
ancientrishis[seers]asrevealedknowledge.ItisconsideredthattheVedasaretracedultimatelytothe
Lordasthesourceofallknowledge,anditisthisbodyofknowledgethatisthesourceofAdvaita.The
Upanishads[theconcludingportionsoftheVedas]talkaboutGodrealizationandtheynotonlytalkabout
it,theymethodicallyteachit.WhatIamdoingtodayiswhatistaughtintheUpanishads.TheUpanishads
themselvesareateachingandalsoateachingtradition.Andit'sacommunicabletraditionthere'snothing

pg 4 of 14

mysticalaboutit.
ButIdon'tthinkadvaitaisonlyintheVedas;Ithinkit'severywherewhereverthereistheidea,"Youare
theWhole."Thatisadvaita,whetheritisinSanskrit,LatinorHebrew.ButtheadvantageinVedantaisthat
itcanbetaughtanditistaught.Wehavecreatedateachingtradition,andithasgrown.Whereasin
America,whensuddenlypeopleturnvegetarian,forexample,allthattheyhaveistofuandalfalfaanda
fewotherthings,becausethere'snotraditionofvegetariancooking.Ittakestime.Youcan'tcreatea
traditionovernight!
AC:WhoareconsideredtobetheforemostexponentsoftheAdvaitateachings?
SD:Therehavebeenalotofteacherswhohavemaintainedthistraditionwhosenameswedon'tknow.But
fromtheUpanishadsdownwecansay:Vyasa,Gaudapada,Shankara,Suresvarathesearethenameswe
repeateveryday.ButShankaraoccupiesacentralpositionbecauseofhiswrittencommentary.Itisthe
writtencommentarythatgivesyouthetraditionofteachingandthemethodofteaching,andthemethodis
veryimportantinthistradition:Howdoyouteach?Therearealotofpitfallsinthisprocess,andoneof
themisthelimitationofthelanguagethelinguisticlimitation.Buttheteachinghastobeconveyed
throughwords,whichmeansthatyoumusthaveamethodamethodbywhichyoucanbesurethatthe
studentunderstands,becausetheenlightenmenttakesplaceastheteachingtakesplaceandnotafterwards.
That'sthetradition.SoShankaraoccupiesanimportantplacebecauseofhiscommentaries,becauseheleft
writtencommentariesonpalmleavesforus.ButIwouldn'tsaythattheotherteacherswereanyless
important.
AC:BeforeShankaratherewerenowrittencommentaries?
SD:Thereweresome.Infact,whatI'mteachingeverymorningnowisacommentaryononeofthe
Upanishads,byShankara'sownteacher'steacher,Gaudapada.ThereareafewothersalsoVyasa'ssutras.
Thesesutrasareanalyticalworksinastyleofliteraturethathasverybriefstatements,oneaftertheother,
sothatyoucanmemorizethem.Butthese,again,arepartofthetraditionofteaching,sotheyarealways
backedup.Youwritethesutraandthenyouteachittoagroupofpeople,andthesetogetherarewhatis
handeddown.Then,whenyourecitethesutra,yourememberwhatwecall"theTradition."Infact,the
wholeofAdvaitaVedantaisanalyzedinthesutras.

TheSelfisalreadypresentinallexperience

pg 5 of 14

AC:Whyisitthatyoufeelthestudyofthescriptures,ratherthanspiritualexperience,isthemostdirect
meanstoSelfrealization?
SD:Selfrealization,asIsaid,isthediscoverythat"theSelfisthewhole"thatyouaretheLord;infact,
youareGod,thecauseofeverything.
Nownobodylackstheexperienceofadvaita,ofthatwhichisnondualthere'salwaysadvaita.Butany
experienceisonlyasgoodasone'sabilitytointerpretit.Adoctorexaminingyouinterpretsyourcondition
inoneway,alaypersoninanother.Therefore,youneedinterpretation,andyourknowledgeisonlyasvalid
asthemeansofknowledgeyouareusingforthatpurpose.
Asthesmallself,wehavenomeansofknowledgeforthedirectunderstandingofSelfrealization,and
thereforeVedantaisthemeansofknowledgethathastobeemployedforthatpurpose.Noothermeansof
knowledgewillworkbecause,forthiskindofknowledge,ourpowersofperceptionandinferencealoneare
notsufficient.
SoIfindthatbyitselfthereisnothingmoredumbthanexperienceinthisworld.Infact,itisexperience
thathasdestroyedus.
AC:Ithasbeenmyexperienceasateacherthatformosthumanbeings,generallyspeaking,simplyhearing
theteachingisnotenough.Usuallytheydoneedtohavesomekindofexperiencethatmakesthemeaning
ofthewordsobviousinaverydirect,experientialway.Andthenthepersonsays,"Oh,mygoodness,nowI
understand!I'veheardthisforsomanyyears,butnowIrecognizethetruthofit."
SD:Yes,buteventhatexperienceisuselesswithoutthecorrectinterpretation.Supposeyoursenseofbeing
aseparateindividualfallsawayforamomentortenminutesorevenanhour,andthensuddenlythat
apparentdualityseemstocomebackagain.DoesthatmeantheonetrueSelfgetsdisplaced?Ofcoursenot!
Thenwhyshouldenlightenmentrequireanexperience?Enlightenmentdoesn'tdependuponexperiences;it
dependsuponmysheddingmyerrorandignorancethatiswhatitdependsupon,andnothingelse.
Peoplesaythatadvaitaiseternal,thatitistimeless,andatthesametimetheysaythattheyaregoing
throughanexperienceofitataparticulartimeandundercertainconditions.That'snottraditional!Butthat
iswhatweheareverywhere.Thetraditionsays:"Whatyouseerightnowisadvaita."
Supposeafellowhasanexperienceandthenhecomesoutandsays,"Iwasonehoureternal."Notime

pg 6 of 14

meanstimeless,andtimelessmeanseternity.Whetheritisonehoureternaloronemomenteternal,itis
alwaysthesame.Soconfidenceintruthcannotdependuponastateofexperience.Confidenceintruthisin
yourclarityofwhatis.Otherwisewhatwillhappenis,"IwasnondualBrahmanforonehourandthenI
camebackandnowit'sgone."TheneverythoughtbecomesanightmarebecausewhenIamnotin
nirvikalpasamadhi[ecstaticabsorptioninnondualconsciousness],thenIcannotevenrelatetotheworld;I
havetobestonedforever,youknow?Whereasenlightenmentisjustknowingwhatis.Thatiscalledsahaja,
whichmeans"natural";itmeansjustseeingclearly.Ifpeopleinsistonhavingaparticularexperience,that
simplymeansthattheyhavenotunderstoodtheteaching.Evenrightnow,forexample,weareinterpreting
ourexperiences.Forexample,youareexperiencingmerightnow.
AC:True.
SD:Andyourexperienceseemstorevealtwothings:oneisthesubject,theotheristheobject.Butletus
supposethatbothofthemhappentobeonereality.
AC:Allright.
SD:Thenyoudon'thaveanylackofrawmaterialhere.Theexperienceofseeingmeorseeinganybody,
seeinganythingorhearinganything,thinkingaboutanythinginside,outside,whateverthatexperience
isadvaita.Andifthatisso,thenwearenotlackingexperience,andthereforeweneednotwaitforany
experiencetocome.Whateverexperienceyouencounterwithinyourself,thatexperiencerevealsadvaita,
revealsnonduality.Andifyourinterpretationofthatexperienceisthatthereisanobjectotherthan
yourself,thenitisyourinterpretationitselfthatisduality.Therefore,it'saproblemofcognition,andthat
problemofcognitionistobesolved.
AC:Cognitionof?
SD:Ofthisnondual!AmItalkingaboutsomethingthatisabsolutelyunknowntome?No.Unknownto
anyone?Notatall.Rightnow,forinstance,youseemeandyousay,"Swamiissittinghere."Howdoyou
know?Yousay,"BecauseIseeyou,Ihearyou;thereforeyouarehere."ThereforeIamevidenttoyou
becauseyouhaveameansofknowing,youhaveameansofseeing,youhaveameansofhearing;therefore
Swamiis.Swamiisbecausehe'sevidenttoyou,justasanythingisbecauseit'sevidenttoyou.Sunis,
moonis,staris,spaceis,timeisalltheseareevidenttoyou.
Thesameistrueofyourexperienceofyourself.SupposeIaskyou,"Doyouhaveaphysicalbody?""Yes,"
you'llsaybecauseit'sevidenttoyou."Doyouhaveanymemoryofbeinginsuchandsuchaplace?"Yes

pg 7 of 14

becauseit'sevidenttoyou.Towhomarealltheseevident?Toyou!Toyourself.Thatmeansyouare
selfevident.
Whenareyounotselfevident?Tellmewhen?Itisbecauseyouareselfevidentthatyoudon'tneedto
becomeselfevidentatanytime.Allmyexperiencesarebecauseofmyselfevidence.Therefore,theSelfis
alreadyexperiencedthat'swhatIsay.Selfisexperiencedastheultimatecontentofeveryexperience.I
say,infact,thatourveryexperienceistheSelf.
Inallexperiences,therefore,whatisinvariablypresentisconsciousness,andnoobjectisindependentof
that.Andconsciousnessisnotdependentonandhasnoneoftheattributesofanyparticularobject.
Consciousnessisconsciousness,andwhileitisineverything,ittranscendseverything.That'swhyIsay:
thisisadvaita,thisisnondual,thisisBrahman,thisislimitless;timewiseitislimitless,spacewiseitis
limitless.AndthereforeitisBrahman,andthereforeyouareeverythingalready.Thisistheteaching,and
whatitmeansisthatIneednotwaitforanyexperiencebecauseeveryexperienceisBrahman,every
experienceislimitless.
AC:Butthisisasubtlepointthatisnotnecessarilyeasytograspwithoutsomepreviousdirectexperience
ofthenondual.
SD:Ifthepersondoesn'tsee,thenthatmeansIhavetoteachfurther;ormaybetheydoseebutinspiteof
thattheysay,"Istillhavegotsomecobwebshereorthere."Butthatisnotaproblem;theyjustneedtobe
clearedaway.
First,youhaveaninsightthatisknowing,andthen,asdifficultiesarise,wetakecareofthem.Idon'tsayit
isnotamatterofexperience,butIsaythatexperienceisalwaystheverynatureofyourself.Consciousness
isexperience,andeveryexperiencerevealsthefactofyourbeingSelfevident.AndwhatisSelfevidentis,
bydefinition,nondual.Sosubjectandobjectarealreadythesame.
Hereisawave,forinstance,thathasahumanmind.Itthinks,"Iamasmallwave."Thenitbecomesabig
wave,swallowingintheprocessmanyotherwaves,andbeginsboasting,"Iamabigwave."Thenitloses
itsform,andagainbecomessmallfilesa"ChapterThirteen,"asyousayinAmerica,youknow,
bankruptcyandnowitwantstosomehowgettotheshore.Butfromtheshore,otherwavesarepushing
intotheocean,andfromtheocean,wavesarepushingtotheshore,andthispoorlittlewaveiscaughtin
between,sandwiched,andbeginscrying,"WhatshallIdo?"Thereisanotherwavearound,awavethat
seemstobeveryhappy,andsothefirstwaveaskshim,"Howcomeyouaresohappy?Youalsoaresmall
infact,youaresmallerthanme!Howcomeyouaresohappy?"Thenanotherwavesays,"He'san

pg 8 of 14

enlightenedwave."Nowthefirstwavewantstoknow,"Whatisenlightenment?Whatisthis
enlightenment?"Thehappywavesays,"Hey,comeon!Youshouldknowwhoyouare!""Allright.Who
amI?"Andtheenlightenedwavesays,"Youaretheocean.""What?!Ocean?DidyousaythatIamthe
ocean,becauseofallthewaterbywhichIamsustainedandtowhichIwillgoback?ThatoceanIam?"
"Yes,youaretheocean."Andhelaughs."HowcanIbetheocean?That'slikesayingIamGod.Theocean
isalmighty,it'sallpervasive,it'severything.HowcanIbetheocean?"
SowecandismissVedanta'sstatementofthenondualreality,orwecanask,"Howcome?HowcomeIam
That?"Thenondualteachingisnotnecessaryifouridentityisobvious,ifwhatisapparenttousisnota
differencebutanessentialnondifference.Here,thereisnondifference.Thereisnowavewithoutwater,and
thereisnooceanwithoutwater.Everyotherwave,andthewholeoceantoo,isonewateralone.
Nondualrealizationandactionintheworld
AC:OneofthesubjectsI'mveryinterestedinistherelationshipbetweenthenondualrealizationthat
you'vebeendescribingandactionintheworldoftimeandspace.Forexample,intheempiricalworld,in
empiricalreality,eventherealizedsoulwhohasnodoubtabouthistruenaturefindsthathestillmusttake
astandagainst,inoppositiontotheforcesofdelusionandnegativityoperatingthere.
SD:Weneednotimposearulelikeshouldandmusthemaytakeastand.
AC:Maytakeastand?
SD:Yes.Becauseoncehe'sfree,whoistosetrulesforhim?Yousee,ifheisfreeenoughtodo,thenheis
justasfreenottodothatiswhatIsay.Hewillspontaneouslydowhathehastodo.Perhapshethinksthat
everybodyisallright.Infact,that'swhatthetruthis.Becauseuntilyoutellmethatyouhaveaproblem
withme,Idon'thaveaproblemwithyou.
AC:Butlet'ssay,forexample,thattherealizedsoulissittinginaroomandthenakillercomesinand
startskillingpeople.Somepeoplemightsay,"Well,it'salloneSelfandthere'snoopposition,sothere'sno
needtointerfere."Butsomeoneelsewouldsay,"Ihavenochoice;Ihavetointerfere."
SD:Whyshouldhenotinterfere?Clearly,atthatlevel,thereishurting
AC:Yes.

pg 9 of 14

SD:Andmaybeheisnotevenkilling,maybeheisonlyusingabusivelanguage.Whyshouldthisrealized
soulnotsay,"Foolishman,changeyourlanguage.Whatareyoudoing?"Sohecanhelphim;hecanhelp
himtochange.Andhecandoitwithoutcreatinganybigproblemforhim;hecanbeangrywithoutcausing
angertothisfellow,hecantalktothatpersonandmakehimseethatheisabusivebecauseofhis
backgroundandhelphimtochange.Sothat'swhathewilldo.Butwecannotsaythatheshouldcorrect.
Forthat,whoistosettheruleforme?Supposeoneisenlightened;whoistosettheruleforthatperson,for
theenlightenedperson?Nobodyhastosettherule,becauseheisabovealltherules.
AC:He'sabovetherules?
SD:Yes,he'sabovetherulesandnotsubjecttoanyrule.NobodycanobjectifytheSelf;thereisnosecond
persontoobjectifytheSelf.AndthereforetheSelfisnotsubjecttohurtnorguilt,andthereforeisfreefrom
hurtandguilt.Inotherwords,itisneitherasubjectnoranobject,andifthatisso,then"should"doesnot
comeintothepicturenotevenintothepictureofempiricaltransactionbecauseit'sjustnotanissue.
Theissueis:Hereisapersonwhohasacertainproblemandthereforeheisabusive,andthatpersoncanbe
helped.Soofcoursehewillhelp!
AC:Everythingthatyou'resayingobviouslyiscompletelytruebecause,ultimately,thenondualcannotbe
affectedandhasnopreferences.ButwhatIamsayingisthatthereisalwaysaprofoundeffectonthe
humanpersonalityoftheonewhohasrealizedthatnondual,andI'musingthisextremeexampleonlyto
makethepointthatsomecriterionhastobethere.Forexample,historically,individualswhohavedeeply
realizedthisnondualAbsolutehaveexpressedsattvicnature,haveexpressedegolessness.SoeventhoughI
knowthatenlightenmenttakesmanyforms,andtheexpressionofenlightenmentisdifferentindifferent
people,still,fundamentally,thereisalwaysanexpressionofselflessnessandcompassionwhichallowsus
tosaythatifsomeonewastrulyarealizedpersontheywouldnotbeabletoactinaprofoundlyself
centeredmanner.Therefore,therearecertainlythingsapersonwouldn'tdoifheorshewasanenlightened
person.That'smypoint.
SD:Sohowwillyoujudgeanenlightenedperson?
AC:Well,ifhewasrapingandkillingpeople,thenwecouldatleastsay,"Thisisnotanenlightened
person."Correct?
SD:Butthatdoesn'tcomeintothepictureanywaybecauseinthetraditionalsystemhehastohavegone
throughalifeofrigorousmoralandspiritualtraining,andonlythenisheenlightened,andthisfellowhas
notdonethat,soclearlyhestillhassomeproblems.Thereisastatement,though:"Ittakesawisemanto

pg 10 of 14

knowawiseman."Ifyouareawiseman,thenyoudon'tneedanotherwisemantobecomewise;ifyouare
otherwise,youneedawiseman,butbecauseyouareotherwise,youcannotdiscernhim.Soyouareina
helplesssituation.Therefore,thecriterionforawiseman,Itellyoufinallythewaytofindoutwhetherhe
iswiseornotisifhemakesyouwise.Thenheknows.Thatistheonlycriterion,andthereisnoneother
becausetheformshiscompassioncanassumeareveryvaried,andwithallouractionswedon'talways
consolepeople.

TheMysticandtheVedantin
AC:ShankaraandRamanaMaharshiaregenerallyconsideredtobetwoofthegreatestexponentsof
Advaitateachingandadvaitarealization.AndyetI'vealwayswonderedwhyShankara'steachinggaverise
toamonasticsysteminwhichoneisencouragedtorenouncetheworldinordertopursuethespirituallife
inearnest,whileoftenwhenpeoplewouldaskRamanaMaharshiwhowasarenunciatehimself
"Master,shouldIgiveuptheworld?"hewouldencouragethemtoinquireintothenatureofwhoitwas
thatwantedtogiveuptheworld,anddiscouragethemfromtryingtomakeanyexternalchangesintheir
lives.
SD:Shankaraisjustalinkinthetradition,asIsaidbefore.He'snottheauthorofanyparticularsystemor
monasticorder.It'struethathehimselfwasasannyasi,arenunciateasayoungpersonherenounced
everythingbutasannyasiisdifferentfromamonastic.
Asannyasidoesn'tbelongtoanymonasticorder.Heissimplyanoncompetitorinthesociety.Heisa
personwhohasgainedacertainmaturity,acertaindiscriminativeunderstanding,whichdriveshimto
pursuespiritualknowledgeinadedicatedfashion.InShankara'stime,suchapersonwasabsolvedfromall
familial,socialandreligiousdutiesbyaritualinwhichhesaid,"Allisgivenupbyme.Idon'tcompete.I'm
notinterestedinmoneyorpowerorsecurityorinanythingelsehere."Thatisasannyasi.Heisnota
memberofanorganizationororder.Thereisnomonasterytoprotectthatfellow.He's"underthesky."
Butthereisstilladeeperlevelofrenunciationwhichthissannyasi,thisrenunciate,hastogain,andthatis
theknowledgethat"Iamnotthedoer,Iamnottheenjoyer,Ineverdidanykarma,anyaction,before"
directknowledgeofthenondualSelf,whichisalsoactionlessness.Actionisalwaysthereaslongas
doershipisthere.Even"notdoing"isanaction.Sothefreedomfromdoershipthatcomesinthewakeof
knowledgeoftheSelfisnotanactofgivingup.Itis:"IknowandthereforeIamfree.Andsothereisno
choice."Thisiswhatiscalledtherealsannyas,thetruerenunciationofallactionsatalltimes,andthatis

pg 11 of 14

enlightenment.
AC:It'snottruethatShankarastartedamonastictradition?
SD:No,hedidn'tstartanymonastictradition.Theysaidsoafterwards,butthatwasbecausehewassucha
popularteacherandbecausehewasasannyasi.Hisdiscipleshadmaths[monasteries]thattheyhadcreated,
butitwasn'taneworder.Someofhisdiscipleswereperhapsdispatchedtodifferentplaces,butwedon't
knowwhetherhesentthemortheywent.Myfeelingistheywenthedidn'tsendanybodyanywhere.
That'showIwouldbe,anyway,ifIwereShankara;I'dsay,"Gowhereveryouwant!"Nowifasmall
personlikemewoulddothat,thenIdon'tthinkShankarawouldhavedoneanythingelse.Sothat'sone
perceptiontakencareof.
Thenthere'sRamana.SomepeoplesaythatRamanaisthehighest,theonewhointhemodernworldhas
accomplishedadvaita.That'stheperceptionbecausehe'sknowntosomepeople,buttherecouldbe
unknownmillionswedon'tknowsomemayevenbehouseholders,peoplewhoareathome,someof
themjustyourordinaryhousewives.InIndia,youknow,youcan'ttakethesepeopleforgranted;someof
thesewomenareenlightened.Theyare!Andtheymaybehousewives,mothersoftenchildren.Wedon't
know.Indiaisadifferentcountry.Therearenocriteriatofindoutwhetherthispersonisenlightenedor
not.AndsoRamanaissaidtobeenlightened,butweshouldaskhim,"Areyouenlightened?"Andhewill
say,"Whydoyouwanttoknow?Whoareyouwhowantstoknow?Findoutwhoyouare."Hediscovered
thiswayofspeakingwithpeoplethatdidnotrequirehimtoansweranyquestions.Onefellowcomesand
asks,"WhatisGod?"andheanswers,"Whoareyouthatisaskingthisquestion?"Thisisawayof
answeringquestionsthatheadoptedasanattempttoturnthepersontowardhimself.Therefore,his
attentionwasnottowardanyparticularstyleofliving.Heneitherencouragedsannyasnoranythingelse.
Hewasonlytellingpeople:"Understandwhoyouare.That'swhatisimportant."
AC:Infact,ifpeoplewouldsaythattheywantedtoleavetheirfamilyandtakesannyas,hewould
discouragethat.
SD:Everysannyasiwillsaythesamething,becauseotherwiseallthosepeoplewouldendupinthe
ashram!CertainlyIwouldsaythesamethinginthiscase,becauseanybodywhosays,"Iwanttogiveup
everything,"hasgotaproblem.
AC:Why?
SD:Becausehe'sdoubtful!Ifhewerenotdoubtfulhewouldhaveleftalready;hewouldn'thavecomeand

pg 12 of 14

askedme.Becausethemangofruit,whenitisripe,fallsdown;itdoesn'task,"ShallIfalldown?"Ramana
wasnotdumb;heknewexactlywhathehadtosay.IfIwerehe,doyouknowwhatIwouldhavesaid?I
wouldadvisetheperson,"Hey,comeon,youneednotchangeanything.Bewhereyouare;it'sachangeof
vision."EvenShankarawouldsaythesamething.Shankarahadonlyfourdisciples.Hetraveledupand
downthiscountryonfoot,whichmeanshemetthousandsofpeople,yethehadonlyfourdisciples!That
meanshewasadvisingeverybody,"Staywhereyouare."
AC:Yetatthesametime,fromwhatwehaveheard,bothJesusandtheBuddhaencouragedpeopletoleave
everythingandfollowtheminordertopursuethespirituallife.Sothisisanintriguingquestion.
SD:Theyencouraged,theyencouragedIdon'tknowwhatfor.Perhapstheywantedpeopletospendtime
withthemselves.ButthevalueofacontemplativelifehasalwaysbeenthereintheVedictradition,anda
contemplativelifecanbelivedanywhere.Andyoucanbeinthemidstofallactivitiesinthecontemplative
life,oryoucanbealoneandnotcontemplativeatall.
AC:Inoneofyourbooks,youmakeadistinctionbetweenamysticandaVedantin.Whenreferring,for
example,toRamanaMaharshiasamystic,youseemtobedistinguishinghiminsomewayfroma
Vedantin,andsincemanypeopleconsiderhimtobethequintessenceofVedanta,I'mcurioustoknowwhat
thatdistinctionis.
SD:Theonlydifferencehereisthatamystichasnomeansofcommunicationtomakeyouamystic,an
equallygreatmysticashimself.
AC:Toclearupempiricalconfusionisthatwhatyoumean?
SD:Yes.SupposethismystichasgottheknowledgeofhisbeingalwaysAllthatkindofamystic's
experience.Sothatpersonisamystic,buthehasnomeansofcommunicationtosharethatexperience.If
hehasameansofcommunicationbywhichtomakeanotherpersonequallyamystic,thenthereisnothing
mysticalaboutwhatheknows.Therefore,Iwillnotcallhima"mystic";Iwillcallhima"Vedantin."
AC:InRamana'scase,everybodysaidthathecommunicatedthroughsilence.
SD:Again,thisisaninterpretation,becausetherearealotofpeopleIknowwhowenttohimandthen
camebacksayingthathedidn'tknowanything.
AC:Buttherearealsomanypeoplewhosaidthattheyhadprofoundexperiencesinhispresence.

pg 13 of 14

SD:Eachonehastointerpretinhisownway.ButwecanonlysaysomeoneisaVedantinaslongasthey
teachVedanta!
postedbyjustsamat7:29PM

pg 14 of 14