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isochronous and droop
Apr 28, 2007 5:26 pm, by new user
Subject : Engineering
from the gas turbines dept.
Text :
hi
I have one question regarding the operation of the gas turbines
in islanding mode. our gas turbine is not having the mode of the
isochronus selection. It is always connected to the grid and also
supplying power to the proces plant. However if the grid
breaker fails, then the machine will go to the islanding mode
and maintains the house load.
I understood the diff.between the modes but I wonder if the
machine is in islanding operation, what is the speed control
mode: isochronous or droop?
plz reply
new user
Reply

Re: isochronous and droop

Apr 29, 2007 11:14 am, by markvguy
Presuming you have a GE Speedtronic turbine control panel,
there have been new frequency control schemes developed
which actually keep the unit running in Droop Speed control
mode while maintaining frequency--in other words, without
Isochronous Speed Control.

It would be necessary to review the sequencing used in your

turbine(s) to know exactly how frequency control is
accomplished. It may even be done with an external source from
another control system (DCS or ???).
Isochronous Speed Control requires trained operators who
understand the limits of operating a power island with a unit in
Isochronous mode--especially with other units in Droop Speed
Control mode.
markvguy
Reply
Re: isochronous and droop
May 9, 2007 12:57 am, by Anonymous
Dear Markvguy,
Thank you for your reply. Ours is a GE 7 FA with Mark-VI.
Somebody told me that we will have to increase our megavars
when operating it in islanding mode. But I don't think it is
needed.
When operating the machine in islanding mode once it went to
temp. control and later it got tripped on under frequency when
there was some demand. So if we want to operate the machine
in islanding mode, what are the limitations we have to follow?
Can you plz clarify?
Reply
Re: isochronous and droop
May 11, 2007 12:45 am, by markvguy
This is a very complicted subject, and very difficult to explain in
writing.
Without the ability to look at your .m6b file to determine what
kind of speed control is being used when your unit is separated
from the grid and is operating in "island mode" (a very
unspecific and widely misunderstood term), it's impossible to
say with any degreee of certainty how your unit operates when
separated from the grid and supplying an electrical load. We
also have no idea of the load on your unit (real and reactive)
which is present on the unit when it's separated from the grid.
There are so many possibilities as to what can happen.... For one
possible scenario (only related to real power--MW), let's
presume the unit was operating at Part Load Droop Speed

Control Mode (NOT on Preselected Load Control) at

approximately 100 MW and was suddenly separated from the
grid and did NOT go into any kind of frequency control mode
(Isochronous or some variation of "droop frequency control"
which is now being marketed and referred to as 'power island
mode control'). Let's further presume the load present on the
unit after being separated was approximately 120 MW, near
rated output for a Frame 7FA. The speed would decrease
(because there is NO frequency control with straight- or
Constant Settable Droop speed control) and as the speed
decreases the air flow through the machine decreases (because
the axial compressor is slowing down) and CPD (Compressor
Pressure - Discharge) also decreases. At the same time, the
exhaust temperature is rising (because the air flow is
decreasing)--so the unit would likely go on CPD-biased Exhaust
Temperature Control at some point in this scenario. Since the
speed/frequency was probably around 98-99% (just a scientific,
wild-@$$ed guess), the underfrequency relays on the generator
or the electrical system would most likely trip the unit after
some time delay. Sound like what happened at your site? (The
problem would be greatly "amplified" if the unit was being
operated on Preselected Load Control at 100 MW when the unit
was separated from the grid.)
This author has been at MANY sites, especially in the Middle
East, where the power plant "operators" and supervision believe
that prime movers can maintain frequency when separated from
the grid with a small amount of load WITHOUT switching to
Isochronous Speed Control mode, or having some form of
frequency control while still operating on Droop Speed Control
mode. So they insist on a test where the unit is operated at Part
Load while connected to the grid, then they suddenly isolate a
"block" of load AND the gas turbine from the rest of the grid.
The unit maintains the LOAD, but the FREQUENCY drops and
the generator breaker is opened (tripped) by the underfrequency
relay after a brief time delay--and they declare the testing to be a
failure! (Let's not forget it takes several minutes to restore the
electricity to the "block" of load which was just blacked-out
during the "test".... There's some happy utility Customers!)
In every case, the turbine control system was never designed to
(automatically) sense separation from the grid and automatically
initiate some kind of frequency control--either Isochronous
Speed Control or some form of Droop Frequency Speed Control
mode, and they declare the testing and the results to be a failure
and unacceptable, respectively. All it would take is a single

contact from the utility tie-line breaker to put the unit into
Isochronous Speed Control Mode--and, voila! Problem solved.
There is a fundamental difference between maintaining load,
and maintaining load AND maintaining frequency. Systems and
testing have to be designed to achieve desired results--the
system has to be capable of operation in the intended mode, and
the testing has to be capable of demonstrating desired operation.
When generators and their prime movers are operating in
parallel with other generators and their prime movers on an
electrical grid, the frequency of the grid--and all the generators
connected to the grid--is being controlled by some means
through a "central" control scheme. The individual generators
connected to the grid are NOT controlling their own speed, it's
being controlled by the "grid." So, when generators are
disconnected from the grid, something in the prime mover's
control system has to be enabled to allow the speed of the prime
mover--and the frequency of the generator--to be at rated and be
stable.
There seems to be some fundamental misunderstanding of speed
control--just because speed is controlled through acceleration to
FSNL (Full Speed-No Load) and synchronization--does NOT
mean it's controlled once the generator is connected to a grid in
parallel with other generators. The frequency of all generators
connected to a grid is the same--one 150 MW unit cannot
operate at a different frequency than 2000 MW of other
electrical generators, nor can it have an appreciable affect on the
frequency (unless the total capacity of all the generators is equal
to the load--in other words, all the prime movers/generators are
being operated at rated output and that output is equal to the
load; in that case, any small increase in generation will increase
frequency, and any small decrease in generation will decrease
frequency).
When a GE-design heavy duty gas turbine-generator is operated
on Droop Speed Control, the actual speed of the turbine is LESS
than the turbine speed reference. If the turbine speed reference
is 102% and the actual speed is 100%, the difference between
actual and reference is used to control the amount of fuel being
admitted to the turbine--and, hence, the power output of the
generator. BUT, the fuel is NOT being controlled to make the
actual turbine speed equal to the reference--because when the
generator is connected to the grid the speed is fixed by the

frequency of the grid. Droop Speed Control REQUIRES this

differential to provide stable power output when connected to a
grid with other generators and their prime movers--THIS is
what is meant by "sharing the load."
However, when a generator is operated independently of a grid
to supply power to some load (and we're speaking about AC
electrical power generation), the speed of the prime mover and
generator have to be very tightly controlled, and fuel is added or
removed in order to maintain SPEED as LOAD increases or
decreases. This is typically accomplished using Isochronous
Speed Control.
It is believed that this is another problem with understanding
power generation--that of "loading" or "unloading" units. The
load is the load--it's the aggregate sum of all the motors and
lights and transformers and air conditioners and heaters and
refrigerators and elevators and pumps and--and the aggregate
total of the output of the generators (driven by the prime
movers) CANNOT exceed the load on the system--OR the
frequency will increase. If the aggreate load exceeds the
aggregate generation capability, the frequency decreases.
To operate an AC electrical generator independently of an
electrical grid while supplying power (real and reactive) to some
load, there are TWO main considerations: frequency and load.
The amount of the load, including in-rushes experienced during
starting of large AC motors, must not exceed the rated power
output of the prime mover. And, in order to maintain rated
frequency the prime mover must be switched to some kind of
automatic frequency (speed) control mode--or the operators had
better be darned quick at loading the unit while still in Droop
Speed Control mode.
A unit CAN be operated in Droop Speed Control Mode while
operating independently of an electrical grid and supplying
power to a load--but the operator has to increase and decrease
the fuel to the unit to maintain the frequency. In effect, the
operators become the "frequency control" in the absence of
some automatic frequency control being enabled in the prime
mover's control system.
As for the VAr output, if a single generator is the only device
"supplying" VArs to a load, the output has to be adjusted to
match the reactive load present on the system when it's being
operated separately from the electrical grid. Usually, that means

reducing excitation, but it differs with the type- and nature of

the reactive load the generator is supplying. In power plants, one
should not believe everything one is told.... Nearly every site
and situation is different, and while there may be the odd case
where two sites and loads are nearly identical, the odds against
that are very high.
markvguy
Reply
Re: isochronous and droop
May 17, 2007 1:30 am, by abid
We have four generators supplying the process load of 50-55
megawatts. The excess power is exported to the infinite grid. So
mostly two generators are run on temp control mode (one gives
18.2 megawatts and other gives 20 megawatts) and other two
are at preselect load setting (15 megawatts and 15 megawatts)
depending of the instantaneous demand of the process.
During monsoon, the grid turbulence causes the breakers to trip
frequently. In an event when process demand is 50 megawatts,
the total export is 20 megawatts and the machine goes offline
(disconnects from the grid), when the grid frequency was 49 Hz,
will all the generators shed equal amount of load? What will be
the final loading on each generator? What will be the resultant
frequency when not connected to the grid? Will the frequency at
the moment of disconnection from the grid and the frequency
after the disturbance has settled down be the same? In such an
event, which parameter as an operator should I first control? Is
there a trip also associated with the rate of change of frequency?
All generators are on 4% droop mode.
Thanks,
abid
Reply
Re: isochronous and droop
May 18, 2007 9:47 pm, by markvguy
Maintaining frequency is like riding a bicycle at a constant
speed. If the road is flat, the amount of torque required to
maintain speed (frequency) is constant. If the road starts to
climb, it requires more torque to maintain constant speed; if the
road starts to drop, it requires less torque to maintain constant
speed.

Now, imagine four bicycles all coupled together, and trying to

maintain a constant speed on a flat road while pulling a trailer
with some crates on it. Imagine two of the riders are pedaling as
hard as they can (the two Base Load units), and two of the riders
are only pedaling at approximately 75% of capability and the
bicycle is traveling at about 98% of the speed its supposed to be
traveling at (49 Hz out of 50 Hz).
All of a sudden, 30% of the crates fall off the trailer, and all the
bicyclists are still pedaling at the same "rate" supplying the
same amount of torque to the pedals. Worse, the two pedaling at
75% of output maintain their output at 75% regardless of the
speed. The bicycle "train" speeds up, and the two pedaling at
maximum output can now pedal faster at the same torque!
If something doesn't tell at least one of the riders to reduce their
effort (torque) the "train" will just reach a new speed
equilibrium--but at a higher speed than desired (greater than
100%).
If one of the riders was varying his/her output to maintain the
"train" at a constant speed, he/she would be acting as the
Isochronous speed control person. His/her torque production
would be increased or decreased as needed to keep the train's
speed constant. That includes going up and down over hills
(which can be considered "load") or adding or subtracting crates
(which is also "load").
Here's this author's "prediction" for your site...
NONE of the units are presumed to be in Isochronous Control
mode. Grid @ 49 Hz; two units at Base Load (on exhaust
temperature control) producing approximately 38.2 MW; two
units operating at Preselect Load with setpoints of 15 MW each
for a total of 68.2 MW (approximately 70 MW) from all four
units. Process is approximately 50 MW, with an export of
approximately 20 MW, and suddenly the four units are
separated from the grid.
With approximately 30% excess fuel flowing for the process
load of approximately 50 MW (20/70 ~ 28-30%) and NONE of
the units in Isochronous Control Mode, the frequency of all four
units is going to INCREASE. It is presumed the rated output of
each of the four units is approximately 20 MW, so the guess is
that the frequency will increase to greater than 50 Hz, but the

exact value can't be accurately determined. The load will be

approximately 50 MW, approximately the same as before the
separation, but the additional fuel will cause the frequency to
increase since there is no load to "consume" the extra fuel--so
the extra torque causes the speed (frequency) to increase.
The real problem is the two units running with Preselected Load
enabled. The Preselected Load units will do whatever they need
to do to try to maintain their power output at 15 MW each-adjusting TNR to try to maintain 15 MW each! As the frequency
increases, the tendency for the Preselect Load units would be to
decrease the fuel (because the error between actual speed and
speed reference would be decreasing). Decreasing fuel would
tend to decrease power output--but, Preselected Load control
will increase TNR to try to maintain the Preselected Load
Setpoint--and since the maximum load is 50 MW, the extra fuel
just becomes more speed--frequency!
The other two units are already at Base Load, and being
commanded to keep fuel flow as high as possible to make the
exhaust temperature equal to the exhaust temperature reference.
The problem with is that as frequency increases, CPD increases
and power output increases--so the two Base Load units are also
adding to the problem of increasing frequency!
In this scenario, there is nothing controlling speed (frequency).
Droop Speed Control is straight proportional control; if the error
increases between the reference and the actual, the fuel will
increase. And the two Base Load units are just trying to produce
as much power as possible without overfiring (exceeding the
exhaust temperature reference).
Without quick action, the over-frequency relays (presuming they
are present) might start tripping units off line.
The first thing to do is "cancel" the load control selection of
ALL the units--the Base Load Units and the Preselect Load
units. This is as easy as issuing a LOWER SPD/LD command
from any source (a target on a screen, the bat-handle switch on
an operator station or Generator Control Panel).
On one of the Preselect Load units, start manually lowering load
(this is usually the fastest unloading rate) using the target on a
display or the bat-handle switch. As load is decreasing, watch
the frequency--and stop lowering load once the frequency is at
about 50 Hz. It is suspected that the load will drop down to

about 5 MW, but that's just a SWAG (Scientific Wild-@$$ed

Guess).
Then, if you can, enable Isochronous Load Control of the unit
with the lowest load (the one with approximately 5MW). Then,
decrease the load of the other unit which was on Preselected
Load until the load on the Isoch unit is about 50% of rated
(rated is presumed to be approximately 20MW), or
approximately 10. Then reselect Base Load for each of the two
units which were previously on Base Load.
Actually, in thinking about the problem, it might just be best to
open the breaker of one of the Preslect Load units as soon the
separation occurs
and then cancel the load selections of the remaining three units
and bring the speed of the remaining Part Load unit down to
control frequency. Then, select the Part Load unit to be the
Isochronous unit.
In the absence of the ability to select any unit as the Isochronous
unit, the operators have to adjust the load of one of the units to
maintain frequency--one of the partially loaded units.
Now, we can't know if your site has overfrequency relays, or the
setting(s) of those relays. Some relays have a function that if the
magnitude of the parameter being monitored changes quickly,
they will trip in a shorter period of time (it is believed that a
term for that is "inverse time" function). It's also not known if
your site has underfrequency relays, and if they have a similar
function to trip quickly if the magnitude changes quickly.
If the two units which were NOT operating at Base Load were
NOT in Preselected Load control when the separation occurred,
while the frequency would increase the problem would probably
not be as severe as if they were in Preselected Load when the
separation occurred.
The IDEAL situation would be to be able to switch one unit into
Isochronous Control mode to start controlling frequency as soon
as the utility tie breaker opened. The turbine control panel
would do so by reducing its load as necessary to maintain
frequency.
A prime mover is nothing more than a torque-producing device.
The generator converts the torque into a medium that can be
transmitted long distances over very thin wires, and converted

back into torque through an electric motor.

When speed is being externally controlled--such as when
generators are connected in parallel with other generators on a
electrical grid--the torque produced by a prime mover is
converted into amps in the generator.
If speed is not being controlled by some external means--such as
when a power producing facility and its load is separated from
an electrical grid--increasing fuel will not increase LOAD, the
doesn't change because the fuel changes. Increasing fuel doesn't
start more motors or turn on more lights.
If the load remains relatively constant, changing fuel will result
in changing the speed of the prime mover (and the frequency of
the alternator). If fuel remains constant and load increases
(motors start, or lights are turned on, etc.), then frequency would
decrease. The operator can increase fuel manually to maintain
speed/frequency as load increases, or, if the unit has
Isochronous speed control mode it will be done automatically.
Write back to let us know if this helps!
markvguy
Reply
Re: isochronous and droop
May 19, 2007 12:54 am, by abid
Many thanks for your nicely explained reply. All our operators
in control room took print outs of your post and distributed in
all shifts. We need such easy stuff for our understanding rather
than all the complex talk about "turbo-machinery dynamics and
behaviours in parallel", etc., which we usually hear from our
more informed colleagues. Thanks.
We forgot to mention in the earlier post that there is some
automatically generated command from a Load shedding PLC
(Honeywell's 620-35 stand-alone PLC system), which sends a
pulse and brings the generators to float mode. So we don't have
to run to the panels to unlock the preselect modes of the
generators.
In view of this information, we wanted to know how will the
generators settle after disconnection from the grid. Their
frequency at the time of disconnection and post disconnection?
Will all the generators shed equal loads and finally settle to

maintain the process load alone? How much would be the final
loading on each generator if the operator doesn't intervene?
Our aim is to calculate a safe export value so that in an event of
sudden disconnection we should still have our generators
connected and running. Hence it would be important to know
how much the frequency increases when a known export is
suddenly disrupted. That may help us reverse calculate and keep
the turbines humming during monsoon turbulences. Maybe we
can make an Excel spreadsheet for various safe-export values
vs. grid frequencies. Our process load is relatively constant.
Best regards,
abid
Reply
Re: isochronous and droop
May 20, 2007 2:43 pm, by markvguy
Describing Droop- and Isochronous Speed Control mode in
writing is very difficult, so If you have some understanding
from the above--that's great!
If the load-shedding PLC drives the units down to the loads at
which the frequency is at rated, then the operator has nothing to
do. The units will supply the process load at the rated frequency
as soon as he loading/unloading rate allows the total fuel to be
reduced to the amount required to maintain the process load at
rated frequency.
If you want a "bumpless" separation from the grid, the load
needs to be reduced to the amount that is equal to the process
load. If the load-shedding PLC drives the unit loads down to the
point at which the total of the four units is equal to the process
load (so that rated frequency is being maintained), then the
frequency will jump to a value greater than rated immediately
after the separation, then will be reduced to rated at the
unloading rate activated by the input if the units all remain in
Droop Speed Control mode.
If the loading/unloading rates of all the units are equal, it's likely
the two units on Preselect Load will shed equal amounts of load.
But, because of the way FSRN (Fuel Stroke Reference - Speed
Control) is maintained at a preset differential above FSRT (Fuel
Stroke Reference - Temperature Control) it will tank at least a
minute or three for the Base Load units to reduce TNR (Turbine
Speed Reference) to the point that load begins to decrease.

So, it's likely that the Preselect Load units will shed more load
than the Base Load units.
If all the units were on "float mode" (Part Load Droop Speed
Control mode) when the separation occurred, and the
loading/unloading rates of all four units were the same then they
would all shed load at the same rate (equally).
There are many consulting firms, in addition to GE, which can
analyze the conditions and predict response to transients such as
separation from the grid. It's just not possible to do it in a forum
such as this; there are too many variables and too much
information required to be able to do such a study via this
forum.
If you can understand how your load-shedding PLC works, and
the loading/unloading rates of the turbines, you can begin to
understand how the units will respond to a grid separation event.
If you need exact figures and timing, you need to commission a
study for finite details and predictions.
markvguy
Reply
Re: isochronous and droop
May 12, 2007 10:10 am, by Anonymous
If on a system with 4% Droop and turbine running in Preselect
Mode and trying to supply 50% load, it's likely that a difference
of 2% will be created between TNH and TNR.
If the load of 50%, for some reason (some condition in the field
like incorrect valve opening etc), is not "achieved" despite the
2% difference between TNH and TNR, then will the Preselect
load control increase the TNR (and hence the difference
between TNH and TNR) still further in an attempt to match the
load with Preselect Setting?
thanks
Reply
Re: isochronous and droop
May 18, 2007 1:06 am, by deepak
Can you tell me what TNH and TNR mean? And what
significance they have to preselect mode???

Reply
Re: isochronous and droop
May 18, 2007 10:27 pm, by Rahul P Sharma
Deepak,
TNH stands for Turbine instantaneous speed and TNR stands
for Turbine Speed Reference.
When your generator is connected to the grid, the instantaneous
speed of the machine is determined by the frequency of the
grid... the machine cannot spin at a speed slower or faster than
the other machines connected to the same grid. This means that
TNH is effectively constant and cannot modulate (unless the
grid frequency changes). Now if the machine is at 5MW and its
MW setpoint is changed to 15MW, then additional fuel needs to
be sent into the machine to meet the load demand. The signal
that "tells" the machine to supply additional fuel to the machine
is TNR.... The Preselect Mode Control will raise the value of
TNR to create a proportionate difference (depending upon the
droop setting of the machine) between TNH and TNR. This
difference is a crucial information to the machine which
interprets this difference into a fuel valve open command
(FSRN)....
au revoir
Rahul
P.S. I owe this understanding of the process to control.com and
its posts. When I started even I had no clue to this concept. Read
some earlier posts dating back to 2006 and you'll find very
elaborate discussions on the topic...
Reply
Re: isochronous and droop
May 18, 2007 10:35 pm, by markvguy
TNH - Turbine Speed, High-pressure shaft (%)
TNR - Turbine Speed Reference, High-pressure shaft (%)
When the unit is operating with Preselect Load enabled, the
Speedtronic will adjust TNR to whatever level it needs to be at
to make the actual load equal to the Preselect Load setpoint--up
to exhaust temperature control.
markvguy

Reply
Re: isochronous and droop
May 15, 2007 11:09 pm, by markvguy
You are correct; if the droop has been calculated correctly and
the unit is basically in a new and clean condition and ambient
conditions are near rated and the constituents of the fuel being
burned nearly matches the fuel constituents supplied to the
packager during the requisition phase, a unit with 4% droop
being asked to supply approximately 50% of rated load would
have a TNR of approximately 102%. But there's a lot of "ifs" in
the qualifications above. There's also compressor cleanliness,
inlet filter condition, hot gas path component condition, etc.,
etc., etc.
ANY time a unit is being operated with Preselected Load
enabled, the Speedtronic will adjust TNR as necessary to make
the actual load equal to the Preselected Load setpoint. If a unit is
rated at 120 MW at 59 deg F and 60% relative humidity, and the
ambient is 100 deg F and the relative humidity is 86.7%, then
50% of rated load will NOT be 60 MW, and if a Preselected
Load Setpoint of 60 MW is entered into the Speedtronic, it's
more likely that the TNR required to produce 60 MW will be
greater than 102%--how much greater is a function of all the
"ifs" and the ambient conditions.
Valve position or valve position feedback has nothing to do with
TNR or TNH when the unit is operating at Part Load with
Preselected Load enabled. When the reference is a load setpoint,
and the feedback is the value from the load transducer, the fuel
control valve will be driven to whatever position is required to
make the load feedback equal to the load reference--and, in the
case of Preselected Load, TNR is driven up or down to achieve
the equality of load reference and feedback.
markvguy
Reply
Re: isochronous and droop
May 10, 2007 11:20 pm, by jojo
If you are in island mode (or better still if your Gas turbine is
supplying loads alone) your connected loads should NEVER
exceed the capability of the gas turbine. This means that the
total connected load should be such that the gas turbine control
never reaches temperature control. You have to keep in mind
that temperature control mode is a load limiter to the gas

turbine, i.e. to prevent the gas turbine from being driven in

overload condition. The same applies to the reactive power load.
This should not exceed the capability of the generator/AVR.
Apart from that, you have to be sure what your control system is
programmed to do. As I know it, the gas turbine is normally
controlled in droop mode, and isochronous mode can only be
selected manually. Apart from that, the control system will
maintain the same setpoints for voltage and frequency that were
present before the system was disconnected from the grid.
Droop mode will NOT maintain a fixed frequency and voltage
but will vary with the load you have (with reference to the
setpoint). So if your loads are frequency critical, then you have
to switch over to isochronous mode. Isochronous mode should
NOT be used when the gas turbine is connected to the grid.
Reply

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