A Cursory Response to Michael Voriss Weapons of MASS Destruction

Part 1
I will not be writing this as a serious paper I will use the power of Google to do my
bidding certainly I with a few hours research can counter Voris effectively than his
thesis is flawed
I hope you all know what I do for you all I could be reading a nice book about
German Chancellor Willy Brandt or watching The Roots of War about the former
Yugoslavia far more interesting then what I'm about to do for your sake. I will try my
best to timestamp each point but I will not edit this so any incoherence, poor
grammar, lack of commas periods misspellings or poor writing will be suffered by
you in silence because this took so long and was done for so little of a reason
the phrase new mass refers to the Missal of Paul VI the phrase Old Mass will refer to
the Mass of John xxiii however, it may refer to other older liturgies I however do not
view the slight changes I have described elsewhere on this subreddit as reform of
the reform I see it more in the lines of reevaluation of certain changes. I think the
new translation was worthwhile except the Gloria which is ruined it may be closer to
the Latin but was made with total disregard for the fact it is one of the most song
parts of the Mass leading to the My little Pony Melody The Remnant whined about
recently
Touching of my personal opinion of this matter, I believe that the Mass of Paul VI
was a best effort all things considered for the time. I believe some things are good
and others bad however I think it must stand for another 100 years before we
consider any major change.
_:__The quote he uses for the video description is an accurate paraphrase of Pope
Benedict's quote however the then Cardinal misses a few points
1. The new Mass contains almost all of the same parts as the old mass from the
Prayers at the Foot of the Altar which are now the Introductory rite to Et Missa
Est in fact the Bidding Prayers a medieval tradition stopped for no good
reasons and present an excellent time to bring prayers to the attention of all
is now added second the only part not in the new mass is the last Gospel
which was eliminated to make room for the second Sunday reading which is a
fair trade off
2. When there are changes they are simplification of prayers in the old mass
3. The Missal 1962 also contained a totally manufactured Holy Week reform
from 1954 that the Pope promulgated with some controversy.
0:55 I would like to state here that I hate the use of the word Novous Ordo I think it
gets thrown around in part to awfulize it and perhaps attach it to new world order
conspiracies

1:16 why is there a picture of Luther and Calvin on the tv are we already trying the
subliminal messages already Mr. Voris
2:50 Voriss Thesis Certain indivuals at Vatican two set out to destroy the theology
of the Mass which would ultimately destroy the Church this begs the question why
would they seeing as people in the pews pay them
3:52 I was unable to find this quote outside of traditionalist sources so I have doubts
of its accuracy. However, I would say no the new mass is not a destruction of the old
it is a re-forming taking the old removing many things, changing a few, adding
some. Every liturgical reform in the Church has followed that path St Georgery
took. A gain I say most parts of the old exist in the new but stated differently
4:00 Typical Voris here criticizing the use of emotion in other moment using it in
speech the next the changes were drastic but the liturgy had stayed put basically
since 800 and while that is good it in some ways it does ignore others calls for
vernacular liturgy were made at the Council of Trent Bishop Carrol of the new
diocese of Baltimore recognized the exclusive use of Latin was one of the causes for
Protestant distrust and lack of conversion in America
4:03 First fun fact time people try to pigeon hole Catholics into the Conservative and
Liberal spectrums however mega conservative Ottaviani also wanted the Council
to condemn all modern war in fact the right of conscious objection was placed into
Lumen Gentcium through his efforts
First The Ottaviani Intervention was written by +Lefebvre and we all know where he
went to only the cover letter was written by +Ottaviani and Metz
Second Voris will not tell you this but I will Cardinal Ottavani regretted his part in
this document a couple of years afterwards some traditionalist say that he was blind
and senile but he died 9 years after the retraction quite a long decline into death
with no one ever mentioning this rather public affair to him in that time
To respond to this I am going to dive into the Communion service according to the
1662 Book of Common Prayer as its representative of protestant Eucharist that
denies the theology Mass as a sacrifice but still keeps the liturgy closer to Rome
than the Reform tradition also it was easy to find it online in a useable format.
1. The BCP forbade the use of the priestly vestments of the stole and chasuble
that harkened back to the old testament sacrificial priesthood
2. Candles were forbidden in the COE and at one point illegal until the 19 th
century
3. The rubrics use the word Lords table rather than Altar however the word
Offertory is used so we see some reference to sacrifice remains but others
are removed
4. No sign of the cross at the offertory

5. Communion is either referred to as that or sometimes as Holy sometimes as

Holy Sacrament but never as Eucharist but Communion is also used by
Catholics
6. The Exhortations do use the words Body and Blood of Christ however it
should be noted that these Exhortations exist because Communion service
were rarely performed at this point in Protestantism whereas Mass was
always said even if the People did not commune and that Anglicans in the 39
articles deny Transubstantiation but not necessarily the real corporeal
presence
7. The service is never called Mass only the Lords supper
8. The prayer of humble access refers to thy table rather than thy altar because
it denies the sacrifice
9. The word sacrifice is finally used after consecratory prayers however this is
not meant to refer to the Catholic idea of the representation of Christ
crucified only as a remembrance. The rubrics speak of preventing superstition
when finding the wheat to be used in the bread
10.The elements are never allowed to be reserved this was to prevent adoration
of the elements which was forbidden
So no references to an altar one sort of reference to a sacrifice and no priestly
vestments in fact the word minister or ordinary is used often times instead of priest
or bishop so clearly a No vote from the Church of England on the whole Theology of
the mass compared to the mass of Paul VI this is quite different with priestly
sacrificial vestments required an altar rather than a table sacrifice instead of
offering and reserved sacraments does not sound very protestant to me
Martin Luther and certainly Calvin made similar practices with Communion
Third Voris tries to make himself seem like he has the voice of the Pope but Pope
Benedict never called the mass Protestant
4:30 One theologian opinion does not change my opinion nor should it change
anyone elses other people did not like what had become of the Mass at the time
with many Masses said quickly and with less ceremony then what people complain
about today.
4:43 First Jansenism was connected to Calvinism Luther would of still been cross
with the Jansenism
Second I have never seen Liturgical dance at any time mainly because people
where I live find interpretative dance really stupid and where it has existed it has
been dealt with for the most part
Third he does not address the argument that David danced with the Ark but oh well
just say something in an angry triumphant voice

6:19 The Mass of 1570 was only the mass for 400 years at that point people argue
that the missal was the same in 1570 as it was in 1470 however several sequences
were removed and the Mass of Rome was not the Mass of Paris ,Milan, London or
Spain
6:27 The Mass of 1570 was not the only Mass go read one of those books Voris
6:44 Saying Beauduin wanted to make the liturgy more ecumenical is
oversimplifying the matter he saw the celebration of the liturgy as a contradiction
given the division of Christianity especially with the East he viewed ecumenism as
returning to the true sense of the liturgy. I also find he had little contact with
protestants
He absolutely did not want to make the liturgy less Catholic he wanted unity to
make it more Catholic
7:03 Making the Mass more meaningful was the object of the Council and of Bl Paul
VI get that into your narrow mind Voris please.
8:01 I find no evidence of this
8:22 the picture on the tv is yet another subliminal message that picture is often
thrown around as the six protestant who wrote the new mass which is totally
completely and absolutely without any evidence beyond this picture which tells you
that the Pope took a picture with protestant minsters at some point sweet Jesus help
us the Pope was friendly
9:00 some permissions for these experiments had been granted in the fifties
12:06 The liturgy is best described as sacrifice of Calvary in the context of the Last
Supper meal
12:14 Where are the tons of parishes I never heard that barely hear sacrifice except
at the Offertory and the Eucharistic Prayers and in many of the Closing Collects
12:23 Voris has not proved this point of changing emphasis with really any evidence
yet he reasserts it here
12:27 the word victim is used in Eucharistic Prayer 3 Look with favor on your
Church's offering, and see the Victim whose death has reconciled us to yourself.
13:48 the dichotomy Voris states here between change to increase understanding
does not exist people who wanted to change the Mass wanted also wanted
increased understanding and saw the only way to be change however painful that
might be
13:56 An article I read for this from Catholic world report argued that Liturgical
reform was first because we had almost 50 years of reform starting with St Pius X of

the Divine Office then we had shorter fasts Mass at night dialogue masses Holy
week Reform on top of the Liturgical Movements and its debates so the issue was
discussed long before the Council
15:54 Deep breaths Gott hilft mir here we arrive at the wonderful traditionalist
boogey man because discussion of the complexity is too hard therefore make a
boogey man
16:06 Voris sneaks a lie in here and yes I declare Voris is knowingly repeating a lie
that to insinuate or to put the idea into peoples mind that Bulganin was a
freemason is without proof accusation is not proof the day that is true is the end of
civilization. This lie traces to Michael Davies who presented throughout his work
that he had heard from unnamed priest this or from unnamed cardinal who saw this
briefcase this is hearsay to present hearsay as fact is a lie it has not just never been
proved it is without any evidence at all. I do not care what other theologians
thought the fact of the matter is this is 50 years of slander against a Bishop
16:53 Listen to this language Voris you have slandered a dead man you have
present no proof no evidence yet lets insinuate hes an apostate subconsciously
Voris master of the subconscious Freud would be proud
18:13 Many many people also think the earth is balanced on the back of an
elephant oh bloody hell it is exactly roman gossip that is what it is the end
IF I finish this will I get money no rats if I punch my computer screen will Voris go
away darn it If hell freezes over will Voris deny what he could see with his own eyes
yes
18:54 O noes he started studying light the fires
21:19 what are the misgivings that lead to a very not close final vote
22:00 this quote is fake http://queenofmartyrspress.blogspot.com/2011/12/forrecord-and-from-source-what-bugnini.html
22:34 the answer is known there is no proof by God Voris would hang a man for
murder even if he was on the moon at the time of the murder
22:58 Voris does not say how this has happened
22:32 I would like to see something further with this quote what did he do what did
he actually say that lead the good abbot to say this will I get this from Voris of
course not
23:59 so he was removed more reasonable people believe it was due to his single
mindedness, stubbornness and bad personality a canonized saint he will certainly
not become

24:49 new leadership makes new personal decisions the horror having someone
despite his many flaws finishing the work he started does not seem so unreasonable
25:10 Nobody knows therefore speculate to no end Voris logic everyone
25:26 unnamed sources are unnamed its 50 years afterwards what fear could they
possibly have
25:40 two things first how was Paul VI weak and second we are about half way yet
Voris has yet to point out any of those books so prominently displayed
26:17 why is emotional language such as rid destroy being used by Mr I only
express anger in my public life
26:20 The part about Agatha Christi seems more like a legend to me but
28:17 Anytime there is a major change people will disagree and say this is terribleI
what Alice Von Hildebrand does not tell us is what his objections are its hard to
counter whats not made available you might want to add that in Voris
28:35 Im not going to go back and re-drill through my frontal cortex but if anyone
wants to count the times Voris calls Bugaini a Freemason be my guest
29:40 Im going to play devils advocate here if the new Mass is Protestant and a
protestant theology of the Mass invalidates orders such as what the Pope told
Anglicans then how is the Mass truly valid if its not authentic Catholic worship
Also at this point half way we have yet to see a see by side comparison or any
actual quotes from the texts themselves
33:09 Where is there any acceptance of Protestant theology Voris are you accusing
an Ecumenical Council of heresy
33:33 I have gone to Anglican services twice in my life and actually it tends to be
the other way around at least in the USA were The Episcopal Church is very much
High Church it actually seems the Episcopalians invented the Roman Missal then
ruined it
33:46 At the time of the Councils Evangelicals were they were independent of the
mainline had not yet become the mega church take all your money forget the organ
and hymns we got rock n roll that we all know and hate at this point Evangelicalism
was still in some ways liturgical
33:58 What Voris has said here essentially is that the new mass is Protestant if
Protestant love it so much and have no problems with then it must be protestant
then how can it possible be a valid service
34:21 He never said that

36:29 much has been written about why vocations declined the following is the
basic it is important to remember that the 1950-69 period had unprecented levels of
vocations and that is not a good thing
1. Massive societal cultural change beyond the churchs control
2. The sex abuse crisis has simply killed the vocations of many people
3. Conflicts between the Bishops the Vatican and individual orders over what
reform meant
4. Increase materialism from the rapid expansion of the Western Economy
5. Increase Secularization of the whole of society
6. Religious orders accepted far too many candidates who were psychologically
and emotionally immature and unready for clerical/ religious life
http://www.bishop-accountability.org/reports/1971-11-Baars-TheRole.pdf
7. No plans developed to care for all those numbers and give them worthwhile
tasks
a. In the US the Bishops not the heads of the orders decided religious
should not participate in Social security guess what happened in about
the 1980s they ran out of money
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5544131
37:30 I would like to point out that many of those thousands of priests in the 1950s
to 1960s left the priesthood in the 70s 80s
39:00 Many of the same problems effected the laity
40:00 Correlation does not prove causality
40:30 poor orthodoxy of catechizes not the Mass
41:30 where is that poll Voris
42:27 I would actually agree with this quote however I think it is a problem of what
people do with the liturgy not the text themselves as I have written about earlier on
42:43 the Protestant services I have attended which are only a handful put of both
the mainline and more traditional evangelical I have not seen the worship of self
however in the megachurches that is all it ever could be but they do not define
Protestantism
44:10 God Forbid we ever have opposition
44:40 The first rockets NASA launched were utter failures first attempts then to go
badly and if we dont know much about this Mass then how is a response to be
made to unknown objections
45:20 Unsourced quote is unsourced Buganini said a lot of things he was quite
frankly not the man for the public he should have worked more within a committee

45:50 I disagree with the Pope emeritus an ecumenical council was called liturgical
reform was debated ideas, frameworks were approved committees were formed
drafts written and rewritten, and the Pope promulgated it. Ff we are to be truly
organic we would not have one missal for almost the whole of the church we would
have each nation come up with its own liturgical custums such as we had before
1570. People forget how massive a change the 1570 missal is in the history of the
western Church.
In the context of the saying of mass and not the text however I do agree
Also of note here is that Pope Benedict never thought of going backwards to 1962 in
fact we never publically said Mass under the 1962 or before Missals
46:26 If bishops had such a problem with the Sistine chapel Mass of 1967 where
were those bishops in 1969
47:00 I cannot find this quote outside of Michael Davies who started the whole
Bughanini is a freemason lie so I refuse to see this quote as accurate
However to respond to it anyways I will say that this quote can be viewed in the
context of the movement within Protestantism to adapt the 1970 missal into their
own liturgies
47:38 Other Christian churches (like the Orthodox) and Denominations (everyone
else)
48:06 can we have that quote Voris no ok I refuse to do your work for it
48:18 First show us the where it is Vague Voris give examples did you not pay
attention to any of your school or college teachers when they talk about how to
write an argument
Second the vagueness in large part is the work of the fact the documents required a
consensus so everyones reasonable idea had to be put in hence why it says latin
should be retain but the mass should also be translated
48:49 this is true of anything ever written in the 4000 years of human writing
49:18 Ottaviani did not write this intervention 12 theologicans working for
+Lefebvre wrote it the two good cardinals wrote a cover letter which Ottaviani while
not regretting the letter did say his concerns were addressed
Would you like two show us more of it
49:52 where is this quote uncited possibly nonexistent quote spamming Voris the
reader cannot be expected to do your work for you see those low marks you
probably got on papers in college this is why you got those

50:00 As I understand this document was thrown out and is no longer used in fact in
SC we find the word sacrifice 9 times and no protestant theology there
47. At the Last Supper, on the night when He was betrayed, our Saviour
instituted the eucharistic sacrifice of His Body and Blood. He did this in order
to perpetuate the sacrifice of the Cross throughout the centuries until He
should come again, and so to entrust to His beloved spouse, the Church, a
memorial of His death and resurrection: a sacrament of love, a sign of unity,
a bond of charity [36], a paschal banquet in which Christ is eaten, the mind is
filled with grace, and a pledge of future glory is given to us [37].
50:52 Last I checked I am the Bread of life is in the Bible in John 6:35 Spiritual drink
refers to the blood of Christ in the Eucharist as being something we drink for
spiritual purposes to never leave us thirsting again as opposed to water which will
leave us thirsting again
The Vatican for its part did address some of the concerns and dismissed others as
being hyperbole which seemed pretty common among opponents of the new Mass
51:08 On the issue of the offertory this was the most heavily changed part. To make
a short summary of the issue we must first look at its origin originally the offertory
was more ritual then text eventually those rituals were abolished and replaced with
several prayers. The reformers then reversed this trend with by adding the
presentation of the gifts and shorting the prayers.
I cannot see how the text are vague we first bless God for giving us the bread, wine
and creation then we say what the elements will become. Jesus referred to himself
as the bread of life and he is a spiritual drink however, I could see other words being
better suited in the Eucharist give reasons for your statements Voris I am not going
to do your work for you.
51:18 how is sacrifice both mentioned in the text and deemphasized how words like
offering this sacrifice are mean not a sacrifice at all.
51:48 Pray brethren that my sacrifice and yours means the priest offers the
sacrifice as a priest throughout time have but the people also offer their lives and
worship with the priest
51:54 The next person who refers to an a properly consecrated altar as a table shall
have the spirt of Thomas Aquinas and all the Saints and Martyrs bash their head in
with the collected spiritual writings of the saints ok
An alar is consecrated Catholic altars are consecrated therefore they are not tables
even though they bare some similarity given they are both flat surfaces

52:09 I remember hearing transubstantiation but I went to Catholic school so they

do not teach the faith apparently but what do I or anyone else know it is found in
the Catechism for crying out loud
The biggest problem I have with this program is the near total lack of side by side
textual criticism instead we get a history that lacks accuracy and is ripped from
Michael Davies we get so much talk of freemasonic conspiracy I thought this was a
meeting of the Anti-Masonic Party.
In the spirit of the scholastic, I will now give Voris arguments for him to use
1. Compare the a selection of Collects between the two Masses
2. Compare the Simplification of the writes
3. Point out and analyze problem parts and submit corrections for debate
4. Compare a Reform liturgy to the New Mass
5. Compare Crammers and Luthers liturgy to the new mass
6. Talk about changes in the new Mass not really present in the council
7. Talk more about the text vs. implementation
8. Talk about the faults in the new Eucharistic prayers
9. Talk about the Eucharistic Prayers for Children which even I see as bad
10.Talk about the poor English translation in use at that time do your own
translation to compare
11.Find support for your thesis outside of the traditionalist/Conservative old
guard
12.Talk about the Amice and the Maniple and the new style of vestments
13.Talk about 2 candels vs the 6
14.Talk about use of genuflections in the Old vs the New
15.The modern resurrected Christ Cross vs the Cruxfix
16.Show the ambiguity in the Council
17.Talk about per 20th century reforms in the context of 20th century reform
18.Tabernacles on the altar vs reserved elsewhere
19.Talk about how the new Liturgy of the Hours fails to fit into the context of the
Mass
Using these suggestions we would have had a programme that did service to the
debate in the Church rather than instill fear of liberal freemasonic conspiracy to
make the Mass a meal and destroy Catholic theology.
Sources
Eucharistic Prayers 1 2 3 4
SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM
http://www.encyclopedia.com/article-1G2-3407701228/beauduin-lambert.html
http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2009/08/dom-lambert-beauduins-1914programme.html#.VLxfeSvF_X5

http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Item/2760/the_liturgy_fifty_years_after_isacrosa
nctum_conciliumi.aspx
I google searched every quoted not from Pope Benedict to see if it actually existed
outside the traditionalist ether in an outside source otherwise I considered it suspect
at best given all the mud that has been unfairly and slanderously thrown at the
reformers
Part 2
To be completed