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Michael Baxandall
Copyright
The
J.
1998
COPYRIGHT LAW
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is
rights in the manuscript, including the right to publication, are reserved to the Getty
Research
manuscript
may be quoted
No
part of the
of the
Assistant Director for Resource Collections of the Getty Research Institute for the
* * *
CONTENTS
Curriculum Vitae
SESSION ONE:
TAPE
I,
SIDE
xii
18
ONE
Childhood
in Cardiff,
Wales
Father's career as
museum keeper
Excavations
Primary
modernism and
and
medieval
Michael Cardew and Bernard
movements English
and
Leach Roger Fry
force
Mother's
and
decision
The daughter of an Anglican
Wales Moral
Baxandall
Quaker ethos and
His self-conception as an antiquarian and
art critic
in
interest in British
sites
arts
potters
crafts
influence
Parents'
attitudes
Pacifist
socialist political
at
Father's
II
social
intellectual
cleric in
activities
culture
in
art collecting
stay at
difficulties
in
artistic
family's attraction to
tastes
style
Grammar School
bit anti-
of C. M. Bowra and
R. Leavis
Studying under
R. Leavis and
Harold Mason
teaching methods Exercises
author
Discriminations of
played a very big
The moral and the
Leavis's approach
were
completely
Learning from other
intellectual as a teenager
to
to enroll in
in
printing
to
father's
F.
F.
Leavis's
identification
in
part in
quality
to literature
literary
interfused
students.
18
IV
Readings
H. Tawney and Gerald Robert
nature of
Osmotic
Owst
Cambridge
philosophy
growth
but not
Downing English
Heinrich Wolfflin and
school Personal readings
Erwin Panofsky Attending Nikolaus Pevsner's
Not
Pevsner discussed
Cambridge: Roy Summers and Richard West
Close
"mentally
people Frankness
valued
Admiration
of wounding
personal
Cambridge, even
Vanity centered on
and experience
Tastes
than
medieval and Renaissance
Favorite
and poets Not much
Freud, but an
reader of Jung A strong
of
dominant value
Baxandall's personal
in
R.
intellectual
"
Linguistic
at
Antiphilosophical stance in
studied directly
in art history:
friends at
for
highly
agile"
to the point
feelings
others'
in dress
intelligence
dress or culture
rather
at
Interest in
art
novelists
interest in
avid
Restraint a
"restraint"
in
philosophy.
35
Aware of British New Left writings, but didn't play a large part in his
intellectual life
Raymond Williams's Border Country
Ambition
to be a novelist
Plans
around the
On the of novels
the University of
1950s and 1960s Studies
Pavia and
University
of
Munich
the
An
B.A.
from the Courtauld Attending
by Edoardo Arslan
on Venetian
and Lanfranco
on Torquato Tasso
Learning how
put together corpus based on study of
London
1958
the Warburg
while looking
a job Hired by Gertrud Bing
help with
photograph
connoisseurship Attracted
the nonworld collecting material for novels
role
in
at
external
at
history
in art
lectures
painting
to
Caretti
stylistic
to
to
to
Institute for
to
Italian
in
Drifts into
Institute
to
Slight training in
the
for
collection
to
SESSION TWO:
TAPE
III,
No
SIDE
26
APRIL
ONE
45
skills until
Renaissance Germany
Germany
Able
No
real
on help from
The
specialists in
university, the
museums, and
the
to
Bing's
collection
library constituted
the
Young
role at the
Varying
More on the Warburg
knowledge
of
Cassirer,
to
Curtius,
relation
at the
Austrians,
library
fields
studies
interest at
his pupil,
Warburg and
61
Close
Warburg Gombrich
at the
interaction
directed Baxandall's
on
Topic coincided
with Baxandall's long-held
of
Gombrich's seminars
the
Warburg
Discussions with Michael Podro and Peter Ucko
helped Baxandall develop deeper understanding of Gombrich's
Dabbling various psychological
Influence of Anton
Assigned
cataloging the
Renaissance
closely
interest in questions
for
"restraint"
staff
ideas
theories
in
relations
in
as
the
institutes
in the
assistant
at the
Victoria
VI
Shifted to
German wood
sculptures
Interest in museological
problems
Returning
1965
Warburg
Diverse readings
the
course on Renaissance
humanist criticism
to the
to develop a
in
rhetoric
in
in
Kristeller
and
his students,
another
More
76
Not
interested in developing a
syntax and
perceptual
making
University of
Berkeley
Marriage
Katharina Simon
Baxandall Gramsci important
Baxandall's outlook, but not much
with "tact"
distinctions
that facilitates
Interest in
its
relation to
Indirect
priorities
lectures
in structural
in vision that
linguistics
is
verbal,
it
to
responsibilities at
art
history until
to
California,
to
interest in
contemporary
SESSION THREE:
political controversies.
88
Gombrich's
move
programmatically
the
of science Gombrich's
Karl Popper Development of M.Phil, course
humanism
Few
research
Warburg Valuable
guidance from Joseph B. Trapp Friendships developed
the Warburg Development of Painting and Experience
Changes
in staff at
Warburg
into
after
965
desire to
history
relation to
in Italian
collective
projects at the
intellectual
as a
at
VII
series
Developing
at University
The problems
painting
London
embedded into
College
and Experience
central
and
"1930s
response
the book
Suggestions and comments from
or
from
Trapp and Bing on work-in-progress Gombrich's
present
to further
visualizing
Difficulties
that critics
philistine
the
that for
Zeitgeist
vibrations"
sinister
to
Little
cultural historians
social
influence
in
Augmenting references
Kristeller's help
in
104
the
the LeonelloVenturi/Roberto Longhi debates
Developing
Carlo Argan and Roberto
humanists
Anthony
Blunt's
to
that
Italian
art
Developments
sixties
Baxandall's relation to
Salvini
Germany
arguments advanced
in
to be a
Painting
more
substantial exposition
and Experience
Peter Burke
T.
J.
Clark's
of
Similar studies by
books on
social history
social history
artists
individual
Italian
clearest
for
to existing
literature
subject
scholars
to
to
at
dissertations
in
interests
learning
theoretical
history
art"
British art
history journals.
Vlll
TAPE
VI,
SIDE
ONE
120
Developing an
such as
Warburg
Feminism had impact
Class remained more important Baxandall than gender
The
of turning
or
evidence of developing
work on
he
than those
Baxandall tended
question Student unrest
might answer an
1968 Changes
popular
University of London
Developing
pop music and movies
More on
contemporary
Involvements with
of
On Gombrich's debates
on
Roger Fry
with Adrian Stokes Torn between
Gombrich and deeper emotional attachment
The conceptual framework provided by Ruskin,
and Raritan review
at the
little
to
Institute
poststructuralism
studies
to elite
difficulties
class relationships
liked rather
objects that
to
at the
analytic
that
after
culture in
in
a taste for
Britain
British
tradition
influence
art
Baxandall's writing
to British antiquarian
Fry, Bell,
traditions
full
their writings
development of an
were
intellectual
question.
SESSION FOUR:
TAPE
VII,
SIDE
Article in
MAY,
ONE
133
be
experience
big
Comments
History"
Why Baxandall
interchangeable
as a conspiracy against
Language
argument
Intermingling of
1945 a primary
sense of
experienced
the
Relation of The Limewood Sculptors of Renaissance Germany
historiography of
Germany Relation of the
"period eye"
and
processes Trying
reframe
of
"German"
form
and
terms
researching
book
Nuancing
concept of "market"
emphasize forms of
Forces
than exchange of economic
on Kurt
Forster's concepts
of cultural needs
"epistemological crisis"
the
factor in
in
field
to
early sixteenth-century
to larger social
discussion
non-racialist
his
rather
to
political
a typical
art
Difficulties in
to
valuables
IX
in non-nationalist
the
interaction
that led
Developing
and Chardin
Belief
in quality as
work on Locke
an important factor
evidence Developing
in the
value of
interest in the
TAPE
VII,
SIDE
TWO
148
role
of teaching
at the
Warburg
Baxandall's
Cornell
1985
leave
Warburg and
the
University Decision
program
Berkeley Differences
and U.S. modes
education Developing courses
Berkeley Contact
of
with psychology and environmental design departments Cognitive
and shape of Shadows and Enlightenment
and inquietude More on
shadows emerged from work on
Negative response
current research
processes of
On
toBaxandall's
and the Bouguer
Problems with semiotic
of
and
Psychoanalysis and cognitive
do a Warburg"
art-historical lectures at
the
to
in
history
join
art
in British
at
university
at
Interest in
studies
attention
attention
into
Principle"
relation
intellectual
social history
history
TAPE
VIII,
SIDE
art
science.
ONE
164
and mutual
program On
adequately convey
books' arguments
Conventions of museum photography make many
Comments on
photographs
the
critics
Intelligence
peculiar
object rather
for
class
dividing
libraries
cuts at
history
their effects
selecting illustrations
illustrations that
his
available
unsatisfactory
art
Difficulties in finding
his readership.
175
Index
A total
XI
CURRICULUM VITAE
Michael Baxandall
Born August
18,
1933
Education:
946-5
1951-54
1955-56
1957-58
1959-61
1
MA
1958)
Germany
Junior Fellow, Warburg Institute,
University of Munich,
University of London
Professional Career:
1961-65
1965-72
1973-80
1 974-75
1981-88
1982-88
1986-
Lecturer
Reader
in
in the
Warburg
Institute
AD.
Warburg
Institute
Fellowships:
982
988
988-93
1990
1992-93
Fellow
Publications (Partial
Giotto
and the
at the
Wissenschaftskolleg, Berlin
list):
of Pictorial Style.
A Primer in
xn
New Haven
Patterns of Intention:
On
and the
New Haven
and
New Haven
and
XXVI
New Haven
Press, 1994.
"A Dialogue on
Pictorial Intelligence,
of Pictures.
Press, 1985.
De
(1963): 304-26.
A Fifteenth-Century Manuscript
of the
XXVII
De
viris
(1964):
90-107.
"Guarino, Pisanello and Manuel Chrysoloras," Journal of the Warburg
Institutes
XXVIII
and Courtauld
(1965): 183-204.
alter
1967.
"Rudolf Agricola and the Visual Arts," Festschrift fur Hanna Swarzenski, Berlin,
1973,409-18.
"Alberti and Cristoforo Landino:
The
Practical Criticism
of Painting," Accademia
Victoria
ml
V Centario di
L.
1974.
1979): 453-65.
Xlll
"The Bearing of the Scientific Study of Vision on Painting in the 18th Century: Pieter
Camper's De Visu (1746)," in Allan Ellenius (ed), The Natural Sciences and the Arts
(Acta Universitatis Upsaliensis, Figura, N.S. XXI), Uppsala, 1985, 125-32.
"Art, Society and the
Bouguer
Mack
(eds.),
32-43.
Some
"Exhibiting Intention:
Purposeful Objects,"
in
Enforced Signification:
Annunciation,"
in Hiille
St.
1993,31-39.
"Fixation and Distraction:
The Nail
in
Onians (ed), Sight and Insight: Essays for E. H. Gombrich, London, 1994.
xiv
SESSION ONE:
[Tape
I,
18
APRIL, 1996
Side One]
SMITH:
When
straightforward question.
and where
BAXANDALL:
of an
industrial
was born
mining area.
1933
in
spent
in Cardiff,
my
first
which
Museum
Not
so
much
in
National
at the
is
lived, so
my
early
air
My father
[David K.
of Wales,
in the
force and
went to
area.
BAXANDALL:
live
Yes,
it
was
in
England
went
first
to a local
primary
to Llandaff Cathedral School. Llandaff is one of the four Anglican dioceses of Wales,
and
it
South Wales,
my
father's
was from
Yorkshire. He'd gone to Cardiff for the job. He'd been born in London, in fact, but
the family
SMITH:
Since he
BAXANDALL:
was
a keeper, then he
was
in effect
of himself as an
worked on medieval
thing.
But
his
BAXANDALL:
Cardew, who
is
art,
Yes.
in
contemporary
them and
was
style
ethos.
As
because
it,
it
art
and
politics
up.
in
moved
was
rather
in art
that
was
So
remember
were missions
Bernard Leach,
after
criticism, simply
of
art.
I still
that sort
then?
the ambiance.
He'd
art historian.
art critic.
SMITH: Modernist
an art historian?
called,
were
led
on,
by
Quakers. Not exclusively, maybe, but the general atmosphere was Quaker. All this
That's
how I remember
it.
from
political stances
about
BAXANDALL:
They would
tell
me
have voted
certainly
little bit
socialist.
They were
was
in Cardiff.
railway.
in the family,
married,
suppose,
SMITH: Did
in
is
For
me
was
also a son.
My mother
came
after a
She
couple of years.
No, she
didn't.
intellectual.
In
it
was
some ways,
think she
BAXANDALL:
was more an
my father.
SMITH: Was
intellectual than
SMITH:
much
he was very
it.
who was
BAXANDALL:
have
clergyman
M. Thomas]?
worked
I.
socialists.
Her
interest in argument.
And
she
was a
it?
of thing.
BAXANDALL:
Not
in this
artists
was always
full,
and that
really her
BAXANDALL:
SMITH: What
have twin
sisters,
all
and remained
viewed
in a
BAXANDALL:
them,
it
my
still
first in
in Nashville.
my
Sweden
The other
it
sounds
like religion
and
politics
and culture
was a
and
you do
She's
worked
by that time
it,
you're describing,
individuals involved in
which
was
United Kingdom.
in the
Well,
was just
BAXANDALL:
that
So
One became
children,
us.
siblings?
some
churches or
BAXANDALL:
for
in
maybe
was
things
in a big
sisters
now
the mix.
Not
bit clearer,
money
to collect art?
have.
lot,
BAXANDALL:
my
first
year
at
SMITH: For
No,
didn't
go
didn't
go to Europe
until I
was
vacation?
We went
in a
jeep or
two months.
the war,
BAXANDALL: No
it
as a child?
for about
America, but
didn't.
summer
SMITH: During
raids, not
Europe
Cambridge.
BAXANDALL:
Land Rover
travel to
... at
some
to;
it's
was
Initially
we went
remember enjoying
became impossible, so
air
bit.
was
Wales, and
SMITH: What
BAXANDALL:
typical.
kind of school
It
was what's
was
that?
called in
It
should say about 120 boys, some day boys as well as boarders.
fairly liberal
in
me away
can't
It
at that age.
was
blame
it
for
much.
liberal,
It
was
and
it
fairly
was a
my
stopped
crippling, in a sense,
it
don't think
it
was
particularly helpful to
life
by
it,
as
Yes,
holidays because
my
one shouldn't go on
or
kids' parents,
it
was
it
didn't
go home
for
all
the
parents by that time were living near London, and they just
trains, so a certain
very young
when
I'd
go and
felt
the
war
you have a
don't
know about my
later, I don't
themselves for
it
1939.
scarred for
inevitable?
BAXANDALL:
I
was
I'd
came
for
went home
don't think
to be.
BAXANDALL:
it.
don't think
can have
particularly in 1940.
should he do?
Having been a
It
come
was
pacifist,
partly
as
much of a
situation out
it's
was
surprise
in the
my
by September
shadow of this
father,
think,
pacifist friends,
what
He
air force.
lost quite a
don't
at that point.
about.
work
BAXANDALL:
No,
SMITH:
So,
if I
anti-Stalinist or anti-Soviet
BAXANDALL: You
remember,
it's
on some
know, here
show
like the
SMITH:
level?
BAXANDALL:
SMITH: Does
I'd
that
war?
trials,
films
between the
were
political
positives, but
myself to what
and
artistic.
how much
they
don't honestly
political positions,
You
knew
know.
war then?
views with an
acceptance of the necessity of a cold war policy by the U.K. and the U.S.?
BAXANDALL:
many of them
You know,
hadn't had
much time
and
think
tired,
was
a meeting in
my
parents'
after Hiroshima,
would be
and
Russia.
think
it
war.
SMITH: Most
people
BAXANDALL:
didn't.
hard, particularly
my
and
suppose there were collective feelings of an informal kind about these issues among
worked
the people he
have strong
bombs, but
political interests.
don't think he
SMITH: Did
after the
He
with.
He
was a
my father;
he didn't
politically sophisticated
and
or interested man.
change
war?
BAXANDALL:
museum
really,
in
still
Manchester.
interests.
He
my father
No,
I'd
went on,
SMITH: As
director of the
BAXANDALL:
Gallery
more contemporary
stuff.
And
that he
in
had to
fight for,
because the
Manchester
his
urgency then.
SMITH: Was
York, or
De
he interested
Stael and
BAXANDALL:
I
Dufy
in the
it
it
would be De
New
in
in Paris?
think
was happening
painters.
He had
of painter
particularly
suspect we,
was some
should; there
time,
known about
until a
good
was
deal later.
He would
regularly in
don't
London.
remember
some
painters,
Yes.
SMITH: So
No, though
have
him about
it
and
He was
born
in
1905,
raised as an Anglican?
BAXANDALL:
BAXANDALL:
He must
was on
40.
the
father
talking with
painters of the twenties and the thirties rather than the forties.
was
my
we
so in 1945 he
But
in
I've
religious?
style.
SMITH: Your
grandfather
was
in the clergy,
religious family?
BAXANDALL:
wasn't only
Yes,
too.
In Yorkshire,
there
were a
lot
would say my
think
in
it,
Wales
practically
it
all
was
my great-uncles were
in
It
it
of lay preachers
in the family
up
there, so
older.
He would
have
Were
they directed towards modern culture, or were you already developing an interest in
the humanists and the European tradition?
BAXANDALL:
don't think
interests as a teenager.
did
what
because
was going
had to do
at school,
What
and
to a school in Manchester
all
was
partly
in a
were
BAXANDALL:
don't
know.
Yes.
was
think part of it
was
that
when
10
through.
Why,
in retrospect, I
than
my French;
that
was one
At a
thing.
later stage,
were
gymnastics.
In a sort
sixth.
sixth
A bit
going
university,
at
last
sick
which
is
it
was
this
university.
bit
mixed up
you
and decided
left
SMITH: Was
if I
did, Latin
know what
a printer.
to
me
in the
and Greek.
it
didn't intend to
go
to
the equivalent
would be
in
go
Through people my
into a very
father and an
good company,
called
was going
went to university
the fact
in grades,
wanted to be
and the
them
don't
made arrangements
useful to
that at
have had to do
I'd
In fact,
teens.
we
classics
where
always get a
of all
my
a bit anti-intellectual in
Manchester went to
grades,
was recognized by
this
was
was
classical sixth
think that was, quite seriously, the sort of thing that kept
role
gymnastics.
what played a
first.
So
at the last
11
moment
be more
BAXANDALL:
SMITH:
It
Yes.
BAXANDALL:
Not by my
parents.
It
SMITH: What
led
Bowra,
at
don't
that
was
real.
you to go to Cambridge?
BAXANDALL: When
educationist, told
me
said
man
called
father's,
Maurice
F. R. Leavis, at
much
He
said
an
M]
[C.
man
called
BAXANDALL:
Yes, because
it
was more
direct
and more
Oxford
style
moralistic,
was
all
sort
of which
England.
As
style
specific.
saw
it
enjoyed the
scientific
and
liked.
period
is
You were
BAXANDALL:
thirteen, to
Yes.
12
when
went for
was,
suppose,
five years,
and the
first
word
think of is bleak;
adolescence.
was
was a bleak
it
sorry to have
left
boarding school.
Grammar
it
holidays.
like
much money
my mother had
though
much
to spare.
We lived
in
a gift for
making places
a big, cold
to get abroad
at that time,
Edwardian house
homes,
into
Manchester
didn't like
it
in
my
on
so there wasn't
Manchester, and
bit
you know,
in that
sense.
BAXANDALL:
still
Yes, huge.
rather bleak.
had not
really
then a liberation?
it
was a
release
better.
little bit,
in the
But
it
switched to English.
too.
You mentioned
pinpoint
some of the
factors that
13
course of my being
was
time
was
a release in
all
at
sorts
first
decided
was
of
my
just couldn't
do
intellectually excited
were involved
in
the excitement?
BAXANDALL:
and
in a
Well,
although
I'd
Even though
way
traveling each
if
the literature
what one
did, in a fairly
was
day school
at a
seemed
all
came up
against,
in school.
excited by
had a very philological education. This was intoxicating, you know, very
exciting indeed.
even
was hugely
as if one
was being
treated like a
in
human
terms, one's
in
Manchester,
was
is all I
And
whole
was
lot
of work to do
at
home,
grown up
one
it
it
was
relative.
SMITH: Why
did
BAXANDALL:
SMITH: Was
there;
BAXANDALL:
SMITH: For
Yes, he was
BAXANDALL:
the other
Nothing
director of studies.
BAXANDALL:
my
first
two
term,
when
fields that
else, really,
it
was doing
was simply
English.
At one stage
classics.
first
in?
tripos
and do something
14
I,
else
and
studies, but
called
we
II.
but
me
at the
education, which
SMITH What
BAXAXDALL
SMITH
end of my
may be
true
did Leavis
That
because of this
first
I'd
lot
man
think he
of teaching
life
was
Lea\is. on the
by a
classical
some ways
that'
B.WAXD.ALL:
ex-classicist.
needed a
term that
think in
mean by
me was
very important to
Yes. But
think he
at
Downing.
It
was
was
is
getting at the
man
he was reporting
to.
who
when
So one went
to
lot
one or two
What one
weekly one-to-one
that
was
role
itself a bit
lectures, to see
much of a
So
papers.
it
did
was go
own
but going to
whom
15
its
of supervisors for
like,
on
If
To
an
they tended to be
Lucretius by a
in
man
called
So
stage at Cambridge.
it
Roger
was
[A.
B]
that sort
Mynors,
went to a
who was
series
of lectures on
faculty lectures.
BAXANDALL:
you took?
exercise
Having
was
teacher.
it
rather
it
was
what respects
it
The
Wittgenstein's.
And
was
whoever
bad. Leavis
was
in
what
a very evaluative
way
that
is
of quality played a
linguistic,
or even
Logic of a certain
It
wasn't that he
think he
were
first
partly moral.
BAXANDALL:
interests
couldn't,
verse, or Blake's, or
in this,
SMITH: Was
logic.
you
ten extracts.
nowadays
literary;
in
if
maybe
You'd have
sheets.
was
sort.
was
illogical,
in particulars
and
16
One
texts.
So
It
me
in
ways which
weren't simply a matter of style of literary criticism. He's certainly one of the half-
ways
He was
my
shoulder,"
when
his writings
showed,
like
was
much
in
many
disliked.
he was a
many good
teachers.
classroom?
BAXANDALL:
at that time.
too
late.
Also,
think
it
maybe he was
my fate to
encounter great
was
men
ill
bit
it.
other English
BAXANDALL:
college,
when
It
many
Leavis.
teachers.
17
On
You know,
this
learned from
other students,
was a complete
Side
I,
this,
so
picked up quite a
lot
of this rather
mode of criticism.
sectarian
[Tape
literature
Downing
Two]
Leavis resented?
BAXANDALL:
was resented
It
called [Ian
that he
was more or
own
private
at great length.
at the
time?
this.
it
lot,
sect in
BAXANDALL:
some ways.
there?
fifteen in
it
worked
teaching.
Mason,
foreign literatures.
good
for example,
We used to go
different.
18
rather well
In fact,
in the
was
at his
in
teaching
house,
and
that's
where
I first
BAXANDALL:
in Italian?
No.
expected to read
BAXANDALL: We read
one had decent
formal training
Latin,
it
it
in Italian?
read.
remains
modern vernacular
my
Italian
type.
If
was
think
it
so.
at this
time?
BAXANDALL:
Well, you didn't study languages. At this stage in the English tripos,
in
The ones
set authors.
didn't translate
it.
professors?
BAXANDALL:
No, though
historical facts
in
was being
was very
many ways
taught.
The
there
was
and
19
BAXANDALL:
that sort
People
like R.
H. Tawney's Religion
of book, and [Gerald Robert] Owst on medieval preachers, that sort of thing.
BAXANDALL:
Trevelyan
a bit soft.
If one
was
Trevelyan?
me
it
seemed
quite a bit of social history or cultural history, whatever one's going to call
so
much
I
don't
BAXANDALL:
SMITH: The
one of its
think
that
it
at
Cambridge.
so happened
don't
history.
important.
Yes
"linguistic turn," as
it
has
come
Cambridge as
significant centers.
BAXANDALL:
I
but not
to
It's
it,
do
political history.
to
Well,
it's
difficult to
20
was a student
at
Cambridge, but
I'd
stood
for.
It's
would
certainly have
went through
this
period of linguistic philosophy at Cambridge without being very aware of it. Having
said that,
way
it
it
would
the
in
air.
it
find
it
very
difficult
was
with one's
own
lot
of things.
life.
One would
fully
this sort
know
as
much
as
don't think
some
in
one
is.
like to
It's
say one
often simply
to claim
one was
of thing, that
don't really
this,
know how
but there
to reply.
when
didn't
seeping through.
SMITH:
BAXANDALL:
people.
No,
had friends
Cambridge
if you
it
who were
Maybe
seeped through.
it
me
admiring
it
at
interests.
21
and
copying
it,
you know.
It's
a fascinating thing,
think, the
way
influences happen, but they are very difficult to plot. I'm thinking
looks
on
at
somebody
in
now
how one
about
at the time.
Wittgenstein,
BAXANDALL:
No, not
in
at this time,
much of a
been a
later, in
at this
time?
Downing English
school,
may have
suppose;
the feeling that, rather as Freud wanted to do psychology without the physiology,
were going
to
SMITH:
would
do
you be expected
literature
like to
we
Would
BAXANDALL:
had read a
lot
of Plato
at
much
way
to
it
wasn't
much more
much
than that.
don't think
it
got very
further than that at Cambridge, either, really. Leavis's position was, the only
that
you could
make methodical
talk about
method was
to
do a particular job.
22
He
always refused
much
discussed and
elsewhere
but
criticized.
in the university,
teaching English,
maybe
would have
to do.
It
it
was
was
line
it.
has been
much
certainly
it
course.
SMITH: You
BAXANDALL:
was
No, not
at that stage.
SMITH: Was
it
was
Hume
and Berkeley?
in
my
my
special period
period.
expected that you would have some familiarity with Kant and Hegel
BAXANDALL:
everything
was
No. Again,
on
really
SMITH:
was
at
his
mind.
You know, my
sense of philosophy
this level.
This
is in
humanism, does
this
become
a problem?
as
Of course
the grounding?
23
you move
not the
of
BAXANDALL:
The
of philosophy.
do think
in
I still
rigorous thinking,
this is a
Warburg
but at the
had
that,
and
SMITH:
BAXANDALL:
think
lot.
almost
But
at
read very
looked
art
at
little.
in
was
it
wish
I've
wish,
verses, that
my
it
as a
skill.
still
quite separate
from those
never
is
It
issues.
father. I
my rooms
suppose
in
my
in
we
had
my father's
visiting speakers.
house, which
I'd
but not really read, to trying to find at Cambridge books which talked about
literary criticism.
Italian Painters
that because
history
disability,
Cambridge
with something
good
think partly
I'd
of real philosophy.
made
immense
as an
a weakness.
it's still
if at this
it
sounds as
bit
let
weakness, and
feel
books
had a
it
lot
of pictures. But
remember
liking
didn't get
on with
that.
considered
edition of the
think
The
even bought
first
two
art
24
over; that
was simply
found
really exciting,
that here
Panofsky for
was
art criticism
me marks
SMITH: Was
although
man doing
which
it's
bowled me
It
quite liked,
Roger
[Nikolaus] Pevsner
BAXANDALL:
Pevsner was
still
Cambridge?
lecturing at
still
Slade Professor.
a lecture
on Friday night and another one on Saturday morning, and he had a few graduate
students.
Market
sort
in
Cambridge.
It
went
was a
tidy lectures;
I,
were
once or twice
if I felt like
it
Corn
of chronological going through things which he was doing, while I'm sure was
courses.
of,
They were
at that time.
who
and
it
was
was
that
one
that
BAXANDALL:
lot
talk to
after.
sculpture.
don't
was
remember
quite a job,
of slides.
him ever?
No.
25
his
bits
BAXANDALL:
Not
BAXANDALL:
I
was
think
No,
in Italy
SMITH: Probably
wasn't around.
Francis Haskell?
didn't
during
my
know
patch.
Who
yes, actually.
He
at that time.
called
He
on
first
my
it
whom
France.
art
year
He was
in
in this
jeep
you were
I still
see.
closest to?
He
followed
me
my
that
still
mentioned, through
Germany and
primarily in architecture,
art
than
Italy
went
and
was. So he
is
one important
friend.
Another important
disappeared from
him.
It
my ken.
friend
was
a lot
though
it
absolutely
brilliant.
who
has sort of
was
particular,
man
Cambridge.
don't
West became
26
a gardener,
happened to
to him.
me
at
He
stupidity.
are important:
and
I've
is
always had
this
I've
SMITH:
know
this is a
at
It's
clearly.
why
SMITH:
Yes,
schemes
in
mind, and to
don't.
move
It's
field
of
partly an
within them
admired for
I've
their cleverness,
and
I still
do.
This
is
one
not simply the rigor, there's a playfulness that can take place.
it's
in
SMITH: Cambridge,
male environment.
in the
was
take
it
an almost entirely
Is that true?
BAXANDALL:
There were
was
girls.
logical
which
any
BAXANDALL:
which
recognize
think of it as a sort of athleticism. Ever since I've been at school, there have
how do you
ability to
any time.
cleverness, or for
BAXANDALL:
one's
in
27
girls that
Newnham
and
were
there.
wasn't very
because
at
knew were
outside of Cambridge.
stiffness.
lot
think
was an
it
Cambridge, unlike Oxford, most people had done two years National
Service, in the
was assumed
that
to the university.
didn't, in fact;
had a
kidney which was the wrong shape, though minds were changed about that
was unusual
at
little bit
disadvantaged
younger. Not only two years younger, but a great deal younger
it
was
a release to
It
was not
So what
in
it
later.
So
think in being
This
experience.
is
real
rather than
SMITH: Were
there
women
intellectuals
who were
in
circle
of
friends?
BAXANDALL:
I still
certainly wasn't
distinguished
SMITH: Were
many
there
at
women
conspicuous
in
intellectuals.
example?
28
Roy
Downing,
for
BAXANDALL:
Europeans. England
ways: partly
at that stage
politically, partly
was
still
something, and
money
in
curious
like
to
SMITH: Were
a certain
knew
So
quite a
did not
know
few Americans.
men and
the
women, or
between the Britons and the Americans, or the Australians? Were there
interesting
kinds of exchanges?
BAXANDALL:
Not
like the
men and
the
the other hand, had often done a previous degree in America and
Cambridge
to
do a
sort
The Americans, on
were coming
I'd
class,
lot
of things,
more from
BAXANDALL:
No.
29
the
simply because
to
SMITH: A
was
in the
Was
at this
time
that an ethos
Leavis group?
BAXANDALL:
think yes
frankness and
people.
SMITH: An enjoyment
BAXANDALL:
in irritating
mean simply
one
didn't
much
fit in.
like,
style.
style?
SMITH:
Actually, no,
mentioned
extensive
who were
it
just
so I'm wondering
still
it
was
it
said,
it's
more
Cambridge
issues out and discussing them, not sweeping things under the table.
them.
how
was.
BAXANDALL:
style,
it's
don't
It
It
was
and getting
may be
remember
that
that
30
asking people
it
how
how you
does get to
know
that might
other.
BAXANDALL:
extreme aestheticism
loom, and
the time
wore them
was
rationing.
stopped by
in
in
don't
this
my
dress.
used to weave
my own bow
know when
worn with
still
didn't
suits;
cavalry
drill
about.
trousers.
So
my own
That passed by
drill
trousers
at
those were
A lot
A lot
of people
didn't
wasn't
on the whole
think
made
rather a
Service.
No, but
so those were
worn
BAXANDALL:
sort
SMITH:
on
wear
in
school, of
boots, ideally
ties
grammar
entitled to if you
without badges of
course.
31
much on
in
SMITH: What
did
BAXANDALL:
envied very
center on then?
it
think very
much on
intelligence,
experience.
make
intelligent novels.
full life,
sort
with
of life
full
think.
One
It
wasn't
was
intelligence
to have had
after.
Success with
would
girls, certainly,
BAXANDALL:
No,
that wasn't a
Downing
thing.
that sort
of
circle.
SMITH: What
you were
at
Cambridge?
you probably
It
sounds
BAXANDALL: Not
interests in visual art
medieval, whereas
entirely.
contemporary
like
literature,
drama, and
art
at
when
home, so
too closely.
suppose
were towards
my
in
interests in literature
were contemporary.
32
it.
think
my
Renaissance and
spent a lot of time
BAXANDALL:
[F.
T]
poetry
were
Yes,
liked
in fact
and
did.
still like.
Empson's poetry
it
was
the sort of
me
not English; they were novels by continental writers, which had been
was
translated.
called
a sort of cult
lot too.
at
was reading
the
more
Cambridge.
magazines one read. The names of the people haven't survived very much, though
was
me
is
now
in
He
San Francisco.
So there were
at Trinity.
BAXANDALL:
a
way
that
the movies.
and
it
an interest
had a normal
didn't later.
Drama
was very
drama or
film?
interest in film.
That was
went to quite a
really a specifically
Cambridge
difficult to
in
go
to
London
lot
of films,
thing,
much drama
yes, in
going a
in
lot to
Cambridge
for an evening.
was
the heyday of
psychoanalysis.
BAXANDALL:
seem
to
33
didn't read
Freud properly.
beyond Cambridge.
lasted
called,
in
it
used to be
of Freud.
say that in
your work,
inflected
at least in the
early stages?
BAXANDALL:
I
had a general
In
some
find
lot.
think what
viable.
old wise
SMITH:
all
liked about
these figures.
man
I
in particular,
it
It's
in a
was already
and
this
interested in restraint.
went on
for
in criticism in a
many
way
that
is
it
make me
years.
Freud rather a
all
the old
is critically
The
attractive.
Was Leavis
me
figure of the
quite a
lot.
BAXANDALL:
Jung was
in
who
BAXANDALL:
is
the
SMITH: There
in passing,
for,
but no
more than
to,
at Frye,
but
One
that, really.
can't frankly
remember how
34
came onto
Jung.
think
some
friend
told
me
about him.
SMITH: He was
all
What about
existentialism?
local
Were you
following that?
BAXANDALL:
it
really
was
a vulgarian's
sense.
SMITH:
It's
hard to see
BAXANDALL:
[Tape
II,
There was
could avoid
it
in the fifties.
Greco.
Juliette
Side One]
SMITH: At
New Left
how you
that time
political criticism?
[E. P.]
Thompson
is
and also
cultural criticism,
beginning to publish
at this time,
BAXANDALL:
certain
of.
after
all,
there's a continuity
it
wasn't big in
many of these
Statesman.
are,
but
my reading. On
My political
allegiances
in
certainly that
35
is
I've
don't
no doubt
saw
it,
something
way, and
my
in
like the
New
many ways
intellectual
life.
still
had
New
Williams
knew
of,
Thompson
don't
remember
Raymond
them.
didn't intellectualize
reading.
theorists?
BAXANDALL:
Not
at that time.
Later
novel.
Not
and a
great,
bit stiff,
but interesting.
To be
honest,
didn't
them, or intellectualizing
is
me
a really interesting
A creditable novel,
when
think of
think.
New Left
my
life.
I'm
intellectuals,
had convinced
at that time.
in
novelist?
BAXANDALL:
Yes,
Cambridge,
can't
thirty to settle
I still
was
do.
a respectable
remember when
it
way
was,
to spend one's
decided
think
life.
it
was
more
At some stage
was
to travel,
at
was
you know,
teaching English abroad, that sort of thing, and to build up this experience out of
in intellectual life
36
it
kept to
that.
The
because people
it
used
in
the
my feeling
but
to,
early to Cambridge,
my
to.
Other
could even say that poetry plays a more expansive role than
is
So, because
fifties.
maybe
One
in.
hadn't
way
was
to
had
had gone
go abroad
it
to live and
write.
SMITH: And
BAXANDALL:
this stage that
you go abroad?
did
was going
One of the
was
things
when
that
I left
was going
Cambridge
was
thought
at
Hamburg, but
bumming around
Italy.
in
England.
got a
research grant to go to the University of Pavia for a year, and then in the course of
that year
decided
that
money and
SMITH:
in
at a
Swiss
on a research
grant.
after
Then
In '58?
BAXANDALL:
of spending
my vacations
in
that.
37
in '58
BAXANDALL:
in
No, the
really doesn't
these years,
MA.
Courtauld
degree, and
it
at
after.
Institute.
was
BAXANDALL:
did
You
initially in
at
is
London, and
it's
at
Cambridge?
academically.
do was
register to
if
things
didn't write
do an external B.A.
in art history
MA.
You pay
mean anything
What
drifted to
Cambridge
at the
to Baghdad.
of B.A.
go
didn't
did that.
Yes,
got a B.A.
in art history.
Not
a very
Courtauld?
BAXANDALL:
No.
SMITH: So
this
BAXANDALL:
if you
38
negotiated
it
doing, simply
take the same papers as the Courtauld students took, without going to the classes,
basis.
life
in Italy
there?
BAXANDALL:
around. Pavia
in Italy traveling
is
my base,
but
or five
weeks on the
still
Caretti at Pavia,
attributing
many
to
who
go
lot.
to.
in the
it
has these
Collegio Borromeo,
worked very
in that
well.
it's
Pavia
went to
in
refit after
itself wasn't
more or
was
a terribly
less a suburb, is
man
four
very
called Lanfranco
art historian
mode on
The
had a room
interesting town,
interesting; I'm
traveled around a
which was
attended classes.
attended.
was an Armenian
He
who worked
lectured for a
in
an
whole
semester, once a week, on a minor Venetian painter called Lazzaro Bastiani, using the
course, really, as an example of how you put together a corpus of the painter's
by
attribution.
It
was
interesting,
and
39
it.
He
works
used rather
bad black-and-white
slides,
BAXANDALL:
but his were the only lectures in art at Pavia, and in the
my
traveling,
good
was already
shifting
Yes. In Pavia
it
was mainly
who
moved
saw
last year,
room
in a
in
on
with.
One of the
six
weeks or
forgotten
knew
it
was
it,
got to
know
there and
how
to speak English.
so,
went to the
Rome
British School in
had
I'm not a facile speaker anyway, and after a winter of not speaking English,
English indeed
too
English,
thought.
So the
lectures
life,
went to
at
Pavia were
BAXANDALL:
in
Munich?
Munich was
I still
go and
one man
that
laid
who
a Frenchman,
things about being allotted to a Collegio like this rather than having to
find a
in?
German, who
arts,
literature.
I've lost
much more
40
university
was more
and also
serious,
I'd
many
In the
first
semester
was
My uncritical
at
Munich
moved down
learnt
was
though
taught.
had
interest in
slightly fallen
a slight stiffness
paid
Sedlmayr
between
to disapprove
me
It
and
of certain
rather drifted
went to a
things.
lot
of other courses
Munich
as
SMITH: Were
at
BAXANDALL:
well,
which
knew
art history in
my
I did.
Germany
that
different literatures,
41
second
different in
really
the road from the university to the Central Institute for Art History,
case.
was
It
were
Munich.
didn't last.
at
at
were
Cambridge?
politics.
important to
You
[Antonio] Gramsci.
me
in Italy
asked about
was
my
Gramsci
important.
year.
find Italian
sympathetic.
It still
interest in the
much
Marxism hugely
New Left.
It
was very
laid
I still
in
the
became very
intellectual revelation
and congenial.
attractive
that
air,
It
of that
just feels
does.
it
me
seems to
to
make
there?
BAXANDALL:
No,
didn't.
did offer
me was
whole
year.
more
I
What
can't
happened
my
was
I still
in
little bit
parents topped
it
it
happened.
Of course I was
think
in the
of money
up a
bit,
so
went
week working
had a
how
what they
left
was
able to
manage
that year.
generally.
remember
do know
is
that
42
went to
it.
had
not learned
sort
of art
in
history.
the
Warburg
was
really
Gertrud Bing
BAXANDALL:
SMITH: And
Well,
also
was
very
known
had
my
semester's lectures
suppose
it
but
more or
It
less.
on Lazzaro Bastiani.
One of my Danish
this.
who
friends at Pavia,
sculpture,
which
is
SMITH: What
in
my
in that
training.
was too
in
Art,
it
training in connoisseurship?
much
a quite different
BAXANDALL:
I'd
was
in the
who took me
It
Institute.
had impressed
me was
Wolfflin's Classic
remember seeking
in
those
days wasn't so much a method or a rationale for doing a certain sort of thing
connoisseurship
or whatever
as a terminology, or concepts
liked Wolfflin,
things.
What
is
43
use.
And
also he
was doing
went
into a
museum,
think, insofar as
liked, partly
44
because that
later,
when
1996
Side One]
III,
SMITH: Before we
what we discussed
got going
wanted to see
Is there
last time.
if
amend?
BAXANDALL:
themselves, and
No,
I
think
SMITH:
in this.
did have a
guess also
at
few
Pavia and
BAXANDALL:
at
you
at
Munich.
certainly had
fact,
it
was down
wasn't until
Cambridge, and
of archival research?
documents.
No,
You
like.
that introduced
won't.
none
I
at
had
Cambridge, nor
in
mind. There
at Pavia.
was a man
was going
to
called [Otto]
was working on
Italian
was
ill,
so
missed out on
that.
In
ever got
into an archive.
SMITH: So
that training
BAXANDALL:
was
would say
professional, or
on the job
45
at the
Warburg?
just struggled.
Unlike some of
my
students,
is
would
a generalized training
how
worried a
lot
It's
I've
skills.
is
so different that
be,
it's
They need
find.
very
to
go
difficult to
into the
it's
I've
always found that although one can learn a certain amount of paleography about
scripts,
training in the
No,
again,
feel this
BAXANDALL:
taught
more
how
was
five,
more
generally
didn't
more than
started
was completely
was
new.
lot
in
of error,
I've
questions of
and authorship?
like dating
untrained.
by Leavis. But
no doubt.
it?
my Latin was
Greek, which
is
worry about
it
each hand
interpretation, hermeneutics,
BAXANDALL:
rest,
maybe
as
much
like languages.
as
Although
much
later.
So
it
was
that sort
to think.
46
did
What
started Latin
was more
of thing
That
skills,
should have.
at
when
ease with
worried about.
And
partly because
was never
quite
clear
was going
to stay in this
field.
something.
on were published
BAXANDALL:
critics [Giotto
One would be
the
work on humanist
did systematically
text.
When
there
was
in a
got a
and Albert
bit
Museum on
there people
BAXANDALL:
Yes.
was
how
used.
was when
was
German
But
that didn't
in the
economics?
A man who was very helpful was Norbert Lieb, who was
bronze sculpture
sixteenth-century
SMITH: Were
texts, so that
what
involved in this
go
arranged
good
fair.
working much
art
who worked
was
at
at
Munich. [Hans
at the
R] Weihrauch was
a scholar of
47
still
there?
He
BAXANDALL:
SMITH:
was
No.
Several of the people we've interviewed had taken classes with him, so
of what he
tradition
calls
fifties in particular, in
Not
facts.
entirely,
Would
because
in art history,
in the
it
department
think
my
who went
One was
now
is
certainly
at that
last time,
who were
in
very different.
Munich
moved
the Zentralinstitut
positivist, I
museum
people,
found
second semester
mentioned
was fragmented.
it
idealist
your experience?
flir
suppose.
when
who were
A third center,
was working on
different
which
Kunstgeschichte, where
being a period
In
art history as
think
people
Willibald Sauerlander
BAXANDALL:
seminar
German
which
sculpture,
didn't
did a paper
encounter quite
in the universities.
48
was going
to say they
were of varied
current
was
SMITH:
[E.
H]
positivist, if that's
In '59,
would
say.
So
hired at the
Gombrich?
BAXANDALL:
whom
isn't
It
really revere
a great person
fine reader
if
she
really,
who
who took me
was
sliding a bit
was away
was working
which
was
mentioned, he
was
that year.
Illusion,
certainly
it
a person
I've
got
still
did.
typescripts
in
America.
in the
didn't
dead
photo collection,
encounter him.
think he
W] Mellon Lectures [in the Fine Arts] that became Art and
think
around, but
is
and she
didn't publish.
in,
me
there.
It
was
in.
which
fellowship,
is
photography work.
BAXANDALL:
can't
remember whether
it
49
was
I'm not
talk a
paradigms were
at the
BAXANDALL:
That
little bit
Warburg
it's
something
like that.
is difficult.
I'd
say
first
that the
shape of the library and the balance of the library and the
Certainly that
SMITH: Was
it
That
in.
is
is
it
that
still
Warburg and
modeled to
suit
Saxl,
that
all-over pattern
it,
it
one existed
and Illusion.
I'm not
then.
1960.
BAXANDALL:
Harvard, so
Yes,
that's
it
write the
book from
influence
on me.
before.
do with
SMITH:
was arranged.
BAXANDALL:
but
way
then.
think
it
which
be a second paradigm.
50
in
was away
I'd
book.
just
We had
meetings and
library, I
came
in
universe.
I'd
Even when
And
these figures.
it
this, in
a universe, which
BAXANDALL:
Warburg
or by
it,
It's
Munich
hadn't encountered
a paradigm, but
Was
was
it
let's call
word of mouth?
was used
Warburg
Institute.
Warburg
to,
and
it
it.
didn't read
was a very
all
different
to.
In
lot
Institute
Institute with
Warburg
a quite different
tenderness
identify the
in
BAXANDALL:
slight
was
SMITH: Was
first
somebody mentioning
I
the
sort
I'd
is
all,
Warburg
was
in
think there
Panofsky, after
at the university,
51
and he was a
was maybe
a certain
tenderness there.
spoke of him. As
mentioned
history
book
really liked.
BAXANDALL:
he went to
New
last time,
lot
Meaning in
know
was
who were
still
as
[Hugo] Buchthal,
the Warburg.
at
who was
German and
Panofsky.
It
was
think
at the
Austrian and English. Buchthal and Ettlinger were both German, and of
Charles Mitchell, and Frances Yates, and Perkin [D. P.] Walker came a
it
well.
So
first art
from Princeton where he had spent a year with Panofsky and knew him
Warburg
the
him, and
a slightly transitional
SMITH: Gombrich
is
like
moment.
who
initiated
and successfully
completed the Anglicization of the Warburg. Would that correspond with your
recollection?
BAXANDALL:
went
Not
initiated ... I
in Saxl's time.
who was
there for
some
years.
Who
52
think
Saxl
Anthony Blunt,
came
in at the
end
it
that sense,
for the
Warburg
London
Institute
did see
think
initiated,
who
about
find out
it.
predates Gombrich.
Warburg
into
I'd
put
it
little bit
differently.
think
would say
that
in
He
England, publicly.
Then he brought
in [A.
brought
was
in
W. W.
Barclay, an
I] Sabra,
who was
still is
what
[Karl] Popper's.
in
I've
insert the
more widely
American,
was
because
University College?
BAXANDALL:
Gombrich
So
it
initiated,
But
it
doesn't
think in
this
time
it
had
its
own
trajectory, its
that
own
energy.
is
53
felt
life,
intellectually.
they
tell
as
opposed to an
BAXANDALL:
incidentally,
Yes,
at the
think that
what degree
true.
the
a narrative that
we
apart?
Gertrud Bing would be an exception here. She, for various reasons, had
families,
some other
cases
was
literature
was
terrific,
sent their children, before the 1914 war, to England for the
SMITH:
was
Warburg being
is
that's
it
would say
summer. So
it
was
in
her case
so, yes.
between the
BAXANDALL:
side, partly
an awareness that
I felt
sort
was
certainly
found
difficult to
sense
that the
not altogether
didn't
little bit
alien.
But they
it
sometimes a
in
many ways.
bit
was shyness on my
of undereducated
Germans found
it
it
Gymnasium
think to
some
easier in
clearly did
have problems.
54
Maybe
my
feel
to ask
this,
because
difficulties,
else
in the blitz,
in
BAXANDALL:
anybody
existed.
by Gombrich himself,
had
his
never got to
know him
knowledge of the
[Hans] Meier,
who I was
was superb
told
librarian.
library.
too, but
He was
really well.
don't
don't think
librarian killed
know
that first-
in
articles that
you did
that lead
up to Giotto
BAXANDALL:
because
didn't
differently,
the library.
don't
library,
Kurz, like
many
Mainly,
also,
I'll
suppose,
put
it
other people,
rather
was
in
One
SMITH: So
know why.
55
them
directly.
think,
BAXANDALL:
Yes, yes.
is
offprints
of important
became incorporated
advice,
Kurz would
mean
the
But
certainly
books
that are
of bound
articles
in
books
and the
a shelf of well-chosen
if I
librarians
needed
know.
at least
BAXANDALL:
Warburg's
Yes, well
library
is
I'd
two
Warburg one
say
many
One
if
one
is
Wellcome
one knew
it
Warburg
library
is
it
really,
very
much an
56
working
the
that
in the
Warburg and
the
room
in
Senate House.
that.
So
it
One knew
was
a special
complemented other
libraries.
certainly, the
SMITH:
is
One
is,
in
British Library.
it's
one
relationship with
it
if
Institute, a lot
one looks
at
much of the
earlier days,
Warburg
power of antiquity,
it
touches.
and
Was
literary
still
Roman
Warburg ethos
visual
at the
BAXANDALL:
think in
a complicated situation,
some ways
In the
really.
first
less
place,
After
it's
Bibliothek Warburg.
was
was
in
now.
is
all, it
it is
a product of a need to
in the 1930s.
was
it
Hamburg
told that
it
was
in
was
It's
quite
interested in
something
my time.
In
to a certain extent
felt that
wrong
ring in
England and would be misunderstood and sound German, so the function of the
Institute
was phrased
in
Two
things
in the
57
One
my
is
Yates and D.
Gordon
J.
They were
interested in the
German
it's
I'd
make, and
very important to
who was
brought
there
my
director.
were
my mind
The
that
So
was
intention certainly
it
was
after
Warburg was
this current
who
So
insofar as there
it's
this
of Frankfort had
Ucko, an
last
more prominent
bit
is
in the activities
and
think.
don't
know what
58
left
called Peter
of
too.
different place.
man
my time. One
who
that
is
pupil.
when
in to
worked on Egypt. He
became
second point
it
in a sense,
still
in
my
the death
SMITH: Regarding
annotations
in the
the library,
it
to the experience
of the Warburg.
Was
BAXANDALL:
Yes,
it
was
fascinating.
I felt I
who
me
told
a lot
suppose these
in the
Institute.
BAXANDALL:
when
collection
Well,
job
sat
and
Italian edition
it
was
first
when
a very
can't
good
training job.
So
was
remember which,
this
was
was meant
the occasion
to be a training
on and got a strong sense of him. Bing was very good about having one out
evening and talking not only about one's
history of the Institute.
say one
felt
She used to
talk
own
One
didn't study
59
early
in
the
the
them,
in the
really.
this.
So
book were
would
a sort of
SMITH:
had asked a
little
earlier
anti-Cassirer.
Not
that
was asking
was
in the
if
anybody
is
philosophy, but
BAXANDALL:
reading a
But
bit
I'm
He was
out of the
air.
younger people
who were
own mind
German
certainly
tradition
SMITH:
did
was coming
at the
in the relationship
thinking,
to us
less
intellectual
different.
After you did the photo job, what kind of assignments were you given?
you determine
BAXANDALL:
Or
that yourself?
became what
is
me was on
Saturday mornings,
department.
60
and
in the
did chores
photography
think half
[Tape
Side
III,
Two]
BAXANDALL:
registered to
do a Ph.D., which
SMITH: At
University College,
BAXANDALL:
I
was doing
bit.
own
I
No,
for those
at the
two
London?
Warburg
Institute
University of London.
years.
I felt
that
SMITH:
Like
did a
little bit
No,
at the
it's
of the
library.
my
Basically,
in art
friend
degree that
what
SMITH:
that's
Royal Academy?
at the
BAXANDALL:
So
writing, and
was
never finished.
possible,
at
would
like to
keep things
distinct to the
BAXANDALL:
coming forward
hospitable.
I'd
say
to us, and
Gombrich
SMITH: Did
we were
we went
certainly
to his house a
lot.
61
accessible.
BAXANDALL:
him, he
let
me
Yes, he certainly did. What's more, and for this I'm very grateful to
my work on
start
is
later
narrowed down to a
SMITH:
England than
You
America.
begin with a
field
which
subject.
me
do
to
this.
know I would
and focus
It
me
gradually constrain
this,
narrow
to
in the
it
down,
it.
in
Restraint?
BAXANDALL:
allow
in
Which you
you mentioned
it
that
word
as a question
and
last time,
of personal
did actually
want to pursue
when
to be using
it,
then
it
was
it.
in the
fact
what
BAXANDALL:
when
became
Gombrich very quickly put me onto him. His work was only
it
was
about
and
helpful for
it
me
at that stage.
why
should
I?
It
in identifying
No,
was
Elias
what
was
read early.
partly because
in
German
didn't find
have
slight
it
entirely
in
those days;
what
was
after,
the notion of collective Freudian mechanisms. Also, the focus on things like table
62
manners element
and to
was
after.
in Elias
It
first
things
things,
So
is
me
very early on
Gombrich's
is
own
of not having gold and that sort of thing. That played a big role early on too.
that's
getting
take.
in this.
what
was
SMITH: You
a job.
my own
purposes a
bit.
BAXANDALL:
No,
two years
members of the
BAXANDALL:
Yes,
we
Institute
were studying
it.
did.
seminars, or
was
there a
program
in the
psychology
of aesthetics?
BAXANDALL:
seminars.
was
can't
Gombrich ran
papers. These
that
remember any
full
work
63
in progress, at
that
which
we gave
BAXANDALL:
people
did.
management
don't.
It
It
to me.
that.
to me,
making a speech.
what
else
think one
was on toga
did.
SMITH: When
impressed by
all
movement and
looked
at
festschrift,
was
perception.
BAXANDALL:
me
and
get older,
lot,
find
in the
stronger and
it
stronger.
BAXANDALL:
Gombrich and
there, before he
closely with
him
became
at the
time
in the Institute
when he was
director of the
Warburg
when he was
his pupils.
the Durning
Institute,
writing Art
64
should
Lawrence Professor
and Illusion.
Perhaps
was lucky
intelligent,
to
and partly
did,
and
learnt
from them.
learnt
me
to
to.
perceptual and cognitive psychology, and then psychoanalysis at the same time,
to do.
how
in the
that negotiation
was handled
in a daily
BAXANDALL:
very enjoyable.
many
Well,
different universes.
suppose
it
does sound a
either,
though
is
bit
was
this
was
it.
Gombrich
learnt a lot
it
from reading a
SMITH:
is,
isn't
bit
certainly
don't think
knew
I
his
was
was dabbling
in
if I
it's
[Claude] Levi-Strauss,
BAXANDALL:
No,
don't think
it
was
65
that certain
things wouldn't
that
work with
other things.
is
now,
interesting
book
man
called
now;
this, I
that there
in
art history
imagine,
as Gombrich's Art
called
was
smaller.
art history,
was
less in
those days
number of clearly
I
don't
mean just
which covers a
lot,
and Illusion
lived in
Later
it
is
is
It's
if I
wasn't going to do
it
me
in his
is
objectionable elements in
what
wanted to do
in
it,
if
I felt,
one's election.
the other
way
in
a sense
in
it's
on me.
even so of F. R. Leavis: a
they are doing the job, but the job they are
this is
On
and
way.
doing
even
an
read that book and realized that one couldn't produce a synthesis from Art
was
is
mind, even
art-
interesting book.
more
may be
it is
It
way of doing
like to do.
this
without the
I've often
thought of
66
problem, or whatever
don't
remember
SMITH: But
it
may
it
feeling
be.
So,
under a great
about
this;
this
all
these universes,
was valued
at that time,
BAXANDALL:
been
at
Well,
think one
was
less sectarian
read a
lot
it
lot.
is
in their field
anxiety,
this;
interesting going
also because
Podro, and
else
was
your personal community of friends and scholars, the people that you could
on an equal
level,
BAXANDALL:
talking.
would
lot
part of
talk with
of deference-inducing circumspection?
Michael Podro and Peter Ucko both were close friends, with
felt
lot
find
of time,
it
very
in a
way one
difficult to identify
what
learnt
simply
sitting
whom
was
to this
writing a thesis
You know,
that
was how
was. At the Warburg Institute there were often people coming through for short
67
and
it
Another man
who worked on
can't
have been a
later
late
well.
than
liked very
like this.
BAXANDALL:
was
in the
SMITH:
come
to
mind
think
would
But do you
sense of antagonists?
mean
someone whose
sense of
in the
friendly
that
this.
sparring partners?
mean
Sixten Ringbom, a
much was
from people
lot
remember very
little bit
who
in a
position
was
clearly
opposed to
BAXANDALL:
Institute,
with
whom
Institute
had some
was not
was
institutionally
relations.
doing,
If one
suppose
it
of that day. The Courtauld has changed a great deal since then, but
in
those
days, with Blunt and the tradition of Johannes Wilde, the Courtauld Institute, in a
perfectly friendly,
a way,
when one
didn't
irritate
Institute.
SMITH: How
68
come about?
want to
do.
the Courtauld
In
BAXANDALL:
translations
from the
know him
money.
for
it.
got to
same time
was
assistant,
and
Initially I
think
I felt I'd
like to teach,
Museum."
and got
sculpture, but
try
At the
museum and
a teaching job.
but just to
an assistant keeper
BAXANDALL:
sculpture, spent
The
first
staff, called
sculpture,
you know;
which
it
[Ronald
is
W]
in
was
"Go
said,
right.
So
to the
applied for
year
it
it.
whether
it
me
this
was a
it
in that
three-volume
me
was
in
there,
Pope-Hennessy,
America,
to do.
at
Williams
who was
think
it
that?
keeper of
So
I,
with
my
good
Italian bias,
for
me
to do.
69
was a
I
bit
don't
de
trop,
know
department
go
still
German
at cataloging the
In the
everybody
in
collection during
it
would be
nice if I had a
those days the pattern was that you had chores to do like
You had
else.
that
Italian,
museum
sculpture,
who decided
my first
letters to reply to
year.
rest
In fact,
and labels to
I still
see
is
draft.
many of my
they called an authority, because that was one's public function, to provide scholarly
authority,
and
was
write a really a
left
library in Britain;
it's
SMITH:
lot.
So
sent
one abroad, so
that's
how I came
that quite a
They
sculpture.
It
was
superb, and
what
was
One
I
enjoyed
told to do.
German
sculpture.
BAXANDALL:
Yes.
BAXANDALL:
Not
in that
70
museums
sitting
had a
since
you
left
the
V&
lot to
friends.
SMITH: Does
BAXANDALL:
museum
become
am
me
lot.
application?
BAXANDALL:
Not
was
museum
science
in a
official,
museum
Albert
Museum.
of the
staff who
SMITH: Oh,
entirely.
in
sense
and
my
am
a third-generation
grandfather
Indeed,
when
I first
museum
official.
are done.
My father
went to the
my
at the
grandfather.
really?
SMITH:
how museums
South Kensington, just across the road from the Victoria and
assume
museum
museum;
aspect of my
found
it
life.
BAXANDALL:
for me.
articles.
articles, really,
at the
Warburg, writing
71
So
Orators.
that
much
sculpture until
SMITH:
think
with, and
it
was
a productive time.
later,
was
it
though
in '57 that
In fact,
didn't write
Gombrich gave
me wondering
it.
well-known lecture
got
in the
in
which he
in
this direction.
BAXANDALL:
the end of the
museum
patch.
is
were going
to give.
So Gombrich
have found
it
in that
like to
don't
art,
Institute to prepare
very much.
doubt
if I'd
follow up himself.
know how
far
knew
quite a
lot,
me
that.
me
at
would
BAXANDALL:
towards
Warburg
in the
certainly directed
for myself.
scholar perhaps
more
little bit
to the
a course specifically
SMITH: So
how
did
of scholarship on
you define
Not simply
important.
72
art history;
maybe
and the
state
intellectual
BAXANDALL:
Yes. That
the 1930s.
was Anthony
me from
interested
Let us
work on humanist
art criticism.
from the
start
It
was
found when
it
is
art history
which
a field
went
really a
in
into
it
that
fragment of
restraint.
The people
more
admired most.
old-fashioned, straight philological engagement with these texts. For example, the
Italian scholar,
Remigio Sabbadini,
still
seems to
me
this time,
going to
Italian libraries,
fairly
informal
way
in
his students.
Kristeller
which he
Rome.
to
me
in
writings on Renaissance humanism, but because of his Iter Italicum, a sort of brief
used
it
lot.
It
was published
partly
by the Warburg
Institute, so
to
me
knew about
and
it.
I'm not getting very far in defining a sense of studies in the field or a sense of
73
field.
think
One
general essay,
it
might be an
It
might be an edition of a
art historian.
is
often.
that
subjective,
Unlike now,
in things
field,
didn't feel
myself in a
field
isn't
a very
it
Italian
in here.
Renaissance
But
would
art
find
it
because one
to me.
It
good answer
was
at
a sort of diachronic
had
SMITH:
more
There's
perhaps, although
written about Italian art than one person could read, and
don't
BAXANDALL:
Warburg
at the
and
SMITH:
was
just as
Institute.
for
me
much
being
it
know,
might be
between
absolutely essential.
was very
text,
in establishing relationships
Italian
suggested
if I
some
it
literature,
but of course
was
rather privileged in
shelf,
to keep up.
74
about
it,
spark
in
like
in presentations,
Gombrich or Bing
Bing dies
well,
doesn't play as big a role, but what about your peers, like
well
life
pursuing
that
that
this
in '64,
it
so perhaps she
it
that
known?
BAXANDALL:
several things
was going
on the go
to be
at a time,
my Ph.D.
thesis, this
this period,
stuff,
you know,
in for a
my work
don't think
material.
saw
in detail, as
think
things too.
this.
was doing
Gombrich saw me
was
doing. But
all
a bit of German
he thought as a project
linguistics.
much French
My friends,
was very
it
was
decent.
people
On
to do;
75
interested in certain
structuralist linguistics as
like
this really
American anthropological
was concerned
able to respond to
this as
so
really think
it
was
that.
Institute
were
SMITH:
the
work
new way,
towards
have done;
was
it
it.
it
was
BAXANDALL:
Well,
it
happened
partly
my
by accident, partly by
finding things.
weekends while
and
larger,
and
was
in there,
at the
and
one
wrote up
at
became very
including a restrained
is
it,
it
larger
presented, such
art,
like
Leon
Battista Alberti, talk about art with an awful lot of words beginning with con-, you're
not going to
You know,
that
was
the problem.
way one
sees
it.
So
that's
how
it
Not
one
happened.
tidily.
SMITH:
don't
want
wanted to
to
talk just a
go on too much
little bit
getting tired, but just to initiate the subject, you had mentioned last time that
76
you did
get interested in
Could you
just talk a
BAXANDALL:
interests
me
little bit
about
So
things
suppose
it
is
the tradition
difficult.
was
But
man
at
any rate
called
in
think,
first
can't
was
chapter of
who wrote on
a sense,
something
SMITH:
isn't really
a theoretical matter,
believe in
much more
it's
of the
all
this.
Whorf
why one
me
sort
of
why one
is
has to think
of verbal constraints and dispositioning, and how one gets the balance
in
that
Roger Brown,
people. Basically,
cannot think
me were
of sparking a
read.
useful in terms
these documents?
anthropological linguistics.
as
right,
in
terms
which
This
is
than method.
Tact: t-a-c-t?
BAXANDALL:
T-a-c-t.
It
seems to
me
that tact
is
where
that
when
I've
been addressing
77
it,
it's
but
do
SMITH: As you
if
it
you
we just
embodied
in
could
literature
of rules and
rules
if that
was
BAXANDALL:
saw
as a problem, because
how
far
Though
art
in rhetoric.
it.
all
was studying
the assumptions.
later
went on
to
me
a natural affinity
painting,
work
and
quite a bit
this is
on the
dialectic, partly
because
eclectic set
classical
system and
in
the
strain
relationship
teach
it
of rhetoric with
among
in fact
same
call
whole
which
my own
fairly
So
real
had to
coding of
didn't feel
disorganized and
SMITH: Applying
than applying
it
to the
Navaho,
for example, if we
78
go back
me
to
Whorf.
BAXANDALL:
using a language
in
you tend
to use
to
retreated
was
mean you
become
a bit
it's
more acute
in
a very, very
when
me
making
weak
in that
distinctions
dull
which word
and discriminations
sort
what happens
stage:
structure,
and that
really for
me was what
the
SMITH:
believe as
rebirth
was
semiotic thought
is
Were you
taking place.
Levi-Strauss lecture
It's
certainly encountered
like Peter
in that period, in
people
in
it
all?
BAXANDALL: To
sort
of interest
this,
it.
own
as structuralist,
wasn't.
history.
after, I did
is
I'm sure in
79
bit
certainly heard
When book
Ucko. Soon
this.
had
after
If we think in terms
SMITH:
word
that he
in Foucault's
would have
BAXANDALL:
of restraint, perhaps
No.
work
at this period,
graduate students.
though
all.
think
comes out
in '66 if I
remember
right,
does seem to
me
things,
because one
people
SMITH: Or
is
through
of indirect ways.
is
de] Saussure.
me,
It
another
student.
is
used.
that
I'd
all
sorts
of
BAXANDALL:
rate in a serious
Peirce
way,
until
later, again.
doubt
if I
that
we
are
all
now
historians have retrospectively looked back at the fifties and sixties and have even
last
ten years a label, "the linguistic turn," that then gets placed
80
onto a period, which can then be synthesized with the end of modernism and the
beginning of postmodernism,
BAXANDALL:
how
often one's
something
first
Certainly
familiar.
that's
when
good
came
person, and in a
it
think
way he
had encountered
of the nature of a
all
bit
how
Well,
crude a
lot
first there's
this
Now,
in earlier
and semiotics.
good up-to-date
This
Warburg: a
lot
in
version.
of the
is
striking,
bit familiar.
intellectual history
there's a
It's
comes round
complex.
It
81
makes
a third caveat
part
Then of course
is
SMITH:
familiar.
realize
seem
know.
don't
one
did
BAXANDALL:
But
it is, is
amount of
however
SMITH: Was
things.
structural linguistics, or a
whether
if
which
is
whether,
in fact,
be.
new key
in fact
everybody
was
BAXANDALL:
Well,
I'd
all
the time.
Language
was
from
the French.
SMITH:
It
was
the time,
resonant, relevant
at perceptual
medium, so
were happening
this period
when
stuff.
seem
don't
conventionalizations,
in
all
looks
all
is
is
if they
and Illusion
lead to aesthetic
BAXANDALL:
SMITH: So
may
Yes
that the
way
in
is
BAXANDALL:
reading a
book
recently
why I was
verbal,
It
leads to conceptual
and that
is
was
verbal.
movement,
that
it
can be
is
a bit similar.
itself
82
The eye
is
conceptualized, but
of thing fascinating.
not
it
is
not
You
SMITH:
think
was
it
BAXANDALL:
1960
in
Kubler's
book
know.
Was that
quite influential in
It
grand.
of big systematic
think
it
was
SMITH:
Yes,
of me and
was
Renaissance, and
function of the
Warburg
to play a role in
my
this
felt,
this.
It
called back.
think
it
don't
I did.
specifically asking
me
called
partly to give a
had quite a
to
do
bit
to
is
really call
know.
strain, I don't
no big
structures.
back?
start a master's
more
he asked
clear
me
course
academic
to
come back
I'd
this
suppose that
Gombrich wanted to
was framed
was going
BAXANDALL:
Gombrich
we
In '65
BAXANDALL:
in the
fear,
Whether
structures.
characteristic
think
it,
American
BAXANDALL:
was too
in
prepare a
to me.
83
never taught
art history.
In fact,
didn't
ago.
taught
came here
some economic
history,
SMITH:
today, but
first
BAXANDALL:
married while
BAXANDALL:
German
was
at this
at the
I'd like
to end for
time?
museum,
yes.
children?
my wife
is at
present in London;
have a
BAXANDALL:
SMITH: And
She
wife do?
paints.
she exhibits?
BAXANDALL:
at this
London.
last fall in
family?
BAXANDALL:
was
a very thin
then that
England
is
first
married.
It
what
two
The
difference in pay
when
was
I
tight off
had
of my
at the
salary,
museum
and
it
was
began
84
at the
Warburg,
in
wasn't disgracefully
badly
off.
SMITH: Where
in
BAXANDALL:
was
married
was handy
moved
for the
to north
London
V&A,
did
you
but then
live?
when
living in Chelsea, in a
we
lived initially in
was moving
I've
to the
Warburg
in
Institute
we
Hampstead and
Highgate.
SMITH:
So, near
Gombrich?
BAXANDALL:
Not
SMITH: During
this time, to
left political
that far.
that
You know,
I still
sort,
But
am
my
politics,
just sort
in spite
It's
suppose
last
SMITH: So
perspective?
BAXANDALL:
rather deep.
indifference to you?
85
mentioned
of an emotional
of everything,
attitude.
BAXANDALL:
No,
BAXANDALL:
follow the
Yes.
it,
but
it
was
certainly
No.
Labour
as being an important
development that
BAXANDALL:
socialism a
care for
again you did not involve yourself in any particular issues at that time?
BAXANDALL:
you needed
much
is.
always see
SMITH: But
didn't
didn't
think
me
in
my
me
in British
political interests.
is
rather remote
from me."
SMITH: So
British
working
BAXANDALL:
found British
class
It
to
you?
politics
political things
Moore over
in a valuable,
86
me
it,
but
to be addressing
issues
seemed
me
to
the classical
problems.
SMITH:
know
this is
later
today, but did you follow the famous debates between Perry Anderson and E.
Thompson?
BAXANDALL:
To me
No,
All this
much
On the
quietist,
and
other hand,
sounds very
English politics.
Thompson
in reference to his
up.
it is,
in
But
Italian,
didn't take a
French, and
deep
German
lot.
liked
a way, but
followed
admired a
him
took
interest in
politics
quite closely.
SMITH: So
struck you as
there
more
BAXANDALL;
It
SMITH:
me
of what seemed to
doing.
why
don't
we
that's
how
I felt,
87
way
to be honest.
lot
was not
SESSION THREE:
30 APRIL, 1996
SMITH:
After you
came back
BAXANDALL:
York
to the
Warburg,
became
a permanent
arrived,
in
to
New
and Sabra had come to teach the history of science. In the next few years a
when
Sabra went to Harvard. The Warburg Institute had a very small teaching staff of five,
so this
was
Frankfort,
Jennifer
quite a big
shift, really.
Montagu, the
Soon
after
historian
[Harris]
was replaced by
changes.
SMITH: Were
BAXANDALL:
Yes,
was
rather programmatically to
go
philosophy.
think this
was
fairly closely in
touch.
think
initially
88
he'd intended
first
worked out
don't
who would
read
didn't
be on the teaching
staff,
which
now
in
there
staff.
was
lists
gave seminars
all this.
In
my
library, so
When
time, certainly,
Joseph B. Trapp,
collection person
in
who
library to
is
the U.S.,
librarian.
shift in that
One
area
was
become
BAXANDALL:
SMITH:
any
of a
got back, Frances Yates, Walker, and Sabra were the teaching
SMITH: Who
bit
asked back.
which became
staff,
book
series,
work out
Institute,
it
a close friend.
active scholars?
but their staffs too. There were normally three academic staff in the photo
and four or
five sort
89
SMITH:
BAXANDALL:
SMITH:
Well,
BAXANDALL:
compares
it
Not
I
mean
I
staff.
for the
don't
Warburg
know,
doesn't
it
comparing
with, but
it
seem
with, say,
to
me
very large.
German
It
research institutes,
it
seems
rather small.
BAXANDALL:
No,
whole of art
history,
SMITH: To what
was
it
is
BAXANDALL:
so
it
own
in a sense, collectively
art historians.
assume?
Although many of us
all.
used visual materials, to use the phrase, very few were straight
thing,
and
big,
Known
on the whole,
were loners
in their
work,
SMITH:
and
fine
Right.
tuned
BAXANDALL:
Not much
in staff seminars.
90
perhaps
It
was
in staff
interests tested
seminars?
example, that
huge
slips
role in
B. Trapp,
J.
my work
who became
it
worked informally
Of course,
all
would
in this
of us were involved
really
came
the Journal
at the
in
my thirties,
SMITH:
Also,
and
role in reading
criticizing
in,
work ought
[in
big,
Institute.
We
it.
remember Joe
better.
incorrectly, that
to have provided.
BAXANDALL: We didn't
in fact
know of each
BAXANDALL:
the
little
and Experience
me
of the Warburg
Warburg
Several of my early articles were for that journal, and there again
was
professor, had a
in
produced
say, for
with references. So
formal seminars.
librarian
people.
Warburg
appears
Yes, but
Institute
'67,
from
or
think his
1970.
in
we
come
didn't really
St.
maybe
know each
other's
later.
work
after
until
he came to
went back, so
91
it
and
certainly
became
friends.
someone who's
BAXANDALL:
inclination to
rather.
it
didn't
productive; of course, you were talking then about your student days.
at this
BAXANDALL:
we
I've
London.
He went
He was
mentioned
He
also.
eventually
went to
for a time.
was
time?
that
came back
Australia,
at the Institute
to the University
of
Momigliano.
Perhaps
there
or another.
from that
A couple
time.
for
in addition to the
at the Institute,
of evenings ago
He came
permanent people
to the
Warburg
Institute to
work
friend
as a research fellow.
92
sort
is
Isaiah Shachar.
did
the
German
sculpture
memory of him. He
book [The
died.
He was
an
who came
Israeli
in art.
Ringbom, who
lot
to
Germany]
in
Sixten
they were very different, you know. The Warburg Institute tended to attract people
who
didn't really
fit
in
focused a program as
it
SMITH:
We talked
little bit
it
maybe
didn't
about Giotto
BAXANDALL:
in fact, I
at
the
book
it
was going
As
to be a laborious
infer
from
and the next big job was the German sculpture book.
a year later, so
tandem.
in
that
last time,
teaching
all
sort.
time have as
at that
thinguntil
used
In those days
it
took
didn't
in
want to
through,
settle
down
to
93
It
was
it
was
history students.
each other
parallel
many
in
respects.
notice in Giotto,
you
open with a lengthy discussion of the Latin used by humanists, and Painting and
Experience opens with a very
painting
is
is
much
BAXANDALL:
irritate.
people.
Yes,
It
it
was
written with a
think
it
Gombrich,
Yes,
think.
certainly
it
isn't
was
so
written to
much
social history
and
about that so
much
since then.
art history.
It's
is
BAXANDALL:
Yes.
It
make some
point, but
is
now
more
has a stronger,
my
question
is
not
more
I
affirmative
meaning
would think
that
in
what
book
had intended to
SMITH: An
little bit
It irritated
in that
clearer.
isn't it?
second book
irritate
short,
It
was
that then.
I can't really
remember very
94
The whole
chapter,
straight
is
in
from anthropology.
suppose
in different
it
me
is
different.
which to
that
C]
still
it
was
slightly
me
central to
ways.
in
BAXANDALL:
Most of that
SMITH: How
did
BAXANDALL:
bed the short
short
right
title
third chapters
title
little
me
through the
looked to
Italian
Museum
you know
in
visualizing meditations?
some time
Library, as
it
used to read
in
went
one and the German one, marking with a pencil things that
British Library,
literature.
every five or
my point
And
likely, I'd
six there
of view; that
to say, entries
went to the
95
is
that.
for
me
can't call
gold.
it
The
a method;
it
was
sort
of fishing.
that's
how
got
at that.
think
only suits
if one's regularly
SMITH:
Right.
Or
BAXANDALL:
it
takes a
in
of time, and
it
some way.
Yes.
bit
SMITH:
it's
So
modem
with some
title
might find works because you're sort of culling off of the practices which you
when you
get to
questions of color codes, for example, you're beginning to deal with things that are
more
codified,
by
particular color
more normative.
is
How
does one
not simply
know
some
that a
person's or a
BAXANDALL:
That
and
on
this
seems to
me
did feel
was
The
find lots
of
and one could find a text for saying blue means such and such
to need great tact.
Actually, a
festschrift.
you can
bit; it's in
undFulle, and
96
it
seem
wrote an
article
Tilman Buddensieg's
me
five years
many
other things
there's
problem too.
this
in
come
SMITH:
talks.
Tact
is
one of our
in.
is
it.
all
this
very tactfully,
a problem, and
think
don't think
in
use.
BAXANDALL:
make
when one
has these verbalized symbolisms for visual things, one gets into a very complicated
situation.
The
article
was
[:
Fra Angelico, and the Annunciation"]. What I'm concerned with there
St Antoninus,
is
that a
painter has to be explicit about certain things which a writer doesn't have to address.
Saint
Luke
A painter
use colors. So one really cannot use these formal color symbolism systems.
other hand, and this intrigues me, one gets reciprocal
of, say,
movement between
the
has to
On
the
two
think
theologians like Saint Antoninus are led to talk about the color of the Virgin's dress,
pressures.
SMITH:
this.
But
So you get a
know of no
at pictures,
when
97
this.
criticism
discuss?
BAXANDALL:
Well,
in this [Cristoforo]
Landino
text.
SMITH: But
assume
that
filled
BAXANDALL:
Yes,
in fact, after I
had done
that, I
a different text for representing the set of key terms relating to art
know,
text
man
way
a text written
there's
took to using
in
this.
What
interested
me
critical
way we
recognize,
SMITH: As I was
in
some of the
structure of the
argument, and even the structure of some of the sentences, that you were aware that
you could be
some of these
things.
criticisms
you expected
in
in
advance to
advance and
to prepare for?
BAXANDALL: What
wild, or speculative.
expected
in
philistine,
98
and
expected.
Some of the
me
some of the
quite strongly by
Ulrich Middeldorf
suppose
it
evoked
[Wilhelm] Pinder
somebody
like
Middeldorf didn't
like the
was doing
that,
through
I still
it
BAXANDALL:
certainly
think
found
my mind
difficult
and
was
was
ideologically sinister.
had 1930s
it
because
Zeitgeist.
found
why
certainly hadn't
was
all, I
talking about
hadn't lived
this difficult.
that's interesting,
because the
Antal.
Well,
felt,
personally. His
is
that
in
brush as Hauser
section,
Warburg was
Hauser or [Frederick]
SMITH: That
people
and
the Art
in
thought
review
me
was
written very
much
that
And
was
that too,
that this
was
99
this
really loathe
Hauser
same
not
was
and
Zeitgeisty,
So the main
and Hauserish.
You know,
a rather soft,
was
Max Dvorak
disconcerting, because
had thought
was being
philistine
and
brisk,
writing for historians, not art historians, but people didn't seem to find
philistine.
way
it
didn't
occur to
SMITH: How
respond to
didn't get
me
in
the
way
was aiming
to.
it
and anyway
very
But
did in a
would.
it?
had seen
it
later
as an undergraduate textbook, in a
at
it,
way, both
it
historians picked
it
SMITH: Do you
audience
On
expected.
it
Institute."
think
books about
art.
SMITH: So
the
BAXANDALL:
some way, or
in
BAXANDALL:
book.
up more than
that way.
all in
it
word
painting in the
Yes, and
it
has too
way
You know,
Warburg
wasn't "old
title
many
pictures;
100
it's
it
up.
of book they
on.
SMITH: Of course,
BAXANDALL:
know,
It
was
in print
it's still
Oh,
a disappointment to me.
it's still
in print,
but
it
You
itself.
it
SMITH:
wonder
if you
could describe a
little bit
Gombrich's comments on
kinds of criticisms he proffered, what you found useful, and what you found sort of
irrelevant.
BAXANDALL:
Experience.
period
was
He would
BAXANDALL:
to in this
way
have read manuscripts for Giotto and the Orators over the
chapter?
Yes,
think.
I still
It's
it
it.
their notations
And
gave things
was doing
in
Giotto
like
in this
comments, but
and the
writing them.
SMITH: Chapter by
things which
didn't see,
because
wrote
101
it
J.
made
B. Trapp.
sent
John Nicoll
in to
it
SMITH:
In Painting
at the
Oxford Press
and Experience
to
in the
autumn.
or
was
clearly
it
in
on Gombrich's home
BAXANDALL:
owes
Yes. No,
you were
turf.
it
wasn't
in
all.
That section
a huge amount to his account of projection, a huge amount, and that underlies
think of all
learnt
huge amount,
this
share,
all that,
is
is
me
always
since.
In that
and Illusion,
written in the
'66.
BAXANDALL:
Which
edited.
Renaissance
and
SMITH:
course
art,
it's
was looking
volume of
knew
a marvelous volume.
at
BAXANDALL:
is
first
in
Painting
and Experience. Of
first edition.
102
done
it,
added the
SMITH:
It
And
light.
thought
struck
then
Originally
should add.
me
that
many of the
think almost
all
education were post- 1972, so maybe you had access to them before they were
published?
BAXANDALL:
No,
I didn't.
in
the British
people to
Museum,
this;
in the
way
seemed
it
[Filippo] Calandri
book
and so on
led
BAXANDALL:
SMITH: What
BAXANDALL:
and
on these
didn't
know about
things.
But
them.
When
as these studies
wrote
in
manuscripts
gone to
So
I've described.
at that stage
it
I'd just
they had been working on the things for years independently, but they
since,
book?
Yes.
kind of comment did he provide to you?
Kristeller
when
was very
helpful.
He wrote
103
letters
with references to
think Kristeller
would have
liked
me
to
He
of thing.
think he
do more
in the
would have
me
liked
think he
felt I
BAXANDALL:
In a previous meeting
helpful.
you
that
cite in the
in
was
trained
in,
in
but Kristeller
table to
work
from.
who
is
a big chunk of your bibliography. Did you have direct contact with any of them, and
how
did
you assess
BAXANDALL:
It
their
think, but
it
remember, mainly.
to the
Warburg
Venturi,
may have
his
point of view?
think,
who was
listed Leonello's
which
critical
book on
book on the
history of art
pictures of Saint
Jerome
of Pisanello
the Renaissance
in
The two
the father, so he
knew were
Institute occasionally
at that time,
and
it still
104
friendly.
also
come
knew
Robert Klein,
who
at that
and a
bit
odd.
It
it
my
in
in
mind.
saw
Italy,
book. In a sense,
Giotto
and the
on the
role
of language
in
Warburg.
BAXANDALL:
Yes,
don't
these things
last
think so.
was
it
Renaissance
light at the
I'd
was
a pioneer book,
first
and an
chapter with
it
was simply
if
one was
Courtauld
appeared.
105
it
and Experience
think,
and
directed to Blunt.
It
He,
there,
who was
was
is
make
was
Institute.
Orators. Although
was
was
when
intelligent
curiously individual,
had odd focuses and was very interesting indeed. So Chastel and
no longer much
was
liked this
produced a
this
was
literary
So
thing.
polarity,
if there
think.
developments
did either
at the
a self-dramatizing sense of
between what
you
individually or the
Warburg
lot in the
really that
1960s.
much
departments.
universities,
didn't think
as a collective
When
at
view
in
arrived in London,
the universities. In
expanded
more
the
universities started or
art history in
syllabuses, a large
was doing
development of new
to.
BAXANDALL:
was
SMITH: How
it
art historians
art history
way
of many different
kinds there.
shift in
lot
art historians
was
was mandated
went
the development of
in this period,
who
is
it
for a time.
also did
some teaching
sort
art
student
106
isn't
and a
in
J.
Clark,
these
you
usefully teach
an
and
it
led to
more
different kinds
seventies.
went more
As
for
of art history
in
didn't think
and
art history
in the early
years
collectively.
art history.
academic
in
which
is
how
in
art historians.
the seventies, of
saw them.
all
more
didn't see
them
straight
BAXANDALL:
SMITH: Not
yet then?
BAXANDALL:
about 1970,
They
I'd
have thought.
BAXANDALL:
in
No.
BAXANDALL: You
know,
again,
it's
107
was
anyway. But
think
And
was involved
session.
because
it
art historian.
in
on with
early
its
joined.
gave a lecture
at
the plenary
But
that
think
it's
the
editor.
Magazine?
B AXANDALL: No,
I've
Terence Hodgkinson being editor of it some years back for a short time.
review for them quite a
SMITH: And
did
BAXANDALL:
bit,
mainly
German
it
friend
used to
sculpture books.
my
at all?
would be misleading
to say
knew
him.
SMITH: What
Architecture]?
Was
BAXANDALL:
being close
SMITH:
at
Really very
It's
all.
Right.
BAXANDALL:
peculiar,
after
he
can't
because
it
remember the
a [Rudolf]
left
Bartlett
know,
little.
square.
Wittkower
make Banham
student.
close to the
it.
108
you
SMITH:
community
in Italy.
Where
did
you
fit
in the
suppose, a
battles?
BAXANDALL:
person.
people
know
And Longhi
A lot
at pictures.
literary criticism,
who
Incidentally,
where the
they
may be by
in trying to
Longhi, because
training, again,
was
I'd like
known
is
in
who
is
and
at pictures
an immensely valuable
very
way
far
it
is
a polarity there in
Italy.
was
volume of
Carlo Argan,
is
Looking
is
involved
an immensely interesting
would adduce
So
is
connoisseurship, attribution.
of looking
think he
there are political problems and that sort of thing, but he's one of the
said this.
109
very
on Longhi.
admired most
is
who went
Salvini,
who
think
would be Giulio
liked very
much,
SMITH: Your
next project
was
the
V&A. You
also
BAXANDALL:
diverse.
history
gather
mean
it
art history
artists,
idea, but
book
to write, and
lecture series.
third
was
took
me
Two
didn't
thirds
general
think, so
want to do
that, partly
in cultural history.
do
that.
at
didn't
It
was
heed
was
Oxford, and
did a series of
on
did
which
the art
Gombrich's very good advice always to do the book before doing the
sufficiently
lectures.
it
By
difficult
to take forever to
was going
it
took a long time because the kinds of reading involved were very
wanted to do the
It
last
writing
them
in
74, and
it
it
them
generally.
knew
it
book. So
was going
110
I've
in
75,
it
was
to be hard
work.
SMITH: To what
first
and
and
social history
art
history?
BAXANDALL:
book both
different culture
setting
do
in
So
it
saw
that as programmatic.
saw
also
saw
it
which
this
But
off.
sort
of
Painting and Experience such as dealing with materials and that sort of thing.
,
did see
it,
seen Painting
in a sense, as a
and Experience
Limewood Sculptors
SMITH: During
could look to
more
in
solid
Painting
and Experience
had always
whereas
saw The
as heavyweight.
that time
a positive
way
you
that
BAXANDALL:
was coming
things.
historians.
Italian
To mention
German
was
sculpture book,
didn't see
seventies, T.
111
Renaissance, Tradition
think there
finished the
out.
in
and
more or
Certainly by 1980,
when
Clark's
similar
had
J.
less
art
out, which,
much more
of art,
and
in
was
didn't see
myself completely
at
ease with
it.
I still
saw
social history
myself, insofar as
did
interests.
never have
felt at
ease with
SMITH: So you
BAXANDALL:
No, and
felt
it
was important.
example of an antibiographical
artists,
that
way
either.
that
around the
later
In a review essay
art history,
stance, since
at the
artist is
taken as an
in
chapter.
BAXANDALL:
Well, that
all
sure,
because
structuring of any
is
certainly true.
German
have been
book on
that episode
done
it
either.
of art to do
112
it
It
would be
a rather perverse
biographically or
monographically, even though one might write a book on an individual sculptor. The
history of the stuffjust doesn't
work
was aware
that way.
of,
anyway;
don't think
it
was simply
to deal
with various general things, and then one had to accommodate individuals within
these general patterns, and that seemed to
that
critics
though
that
my
SMITH:
citing a
model which
you can
it.
came out
it
fit
Italian
with
felt
this.
Italy,
it
do
it
should
this.
suppose
my
Renaissance sculpture,
his.
book
is
cited as an
New Left
That's so.
is
The reason
that
mention
suspect this
may be
this criticism
so.
had to make
that
I'd
write.
art history
BAXANDALL:
do
art history
done
to
didn't really
it
exemplar of revisionist
society,
way
model for
the
The back
really.
me
literature at
all
at that
saw
113
If I
better
time
this as a
in
known,
say,
wouldn't have
work, though
still
my own
attribution
don't
know what
out,
know
in
in
No, even
that's
not true;
came
mainly
were
interests
was
review
German
museums, not
article this
was almost
art historians
in universities.
but
is,
my memory
who worked on
the sculpture,
it.
it
got to
who were
last
time
remember
sculpture.
he warned
me
that
talking to a
German
art historian
in the
called a
age,
like
who were
compromised
subject, again,
still
little bit
German of his
tell
BAXANDALL:
think not.
SMITH: Okay.
It
BAXANDALL:
It
us
by people
who
who
he
younger.
He
said that
it
was my
was
art.
is?
114
mind
it
I felt.
On
Here
cultural stuff.
than
some
it
was
a problem.
think the
others.
Sauerlander
German. Also,
is
at that
polite about
stage
still
there
art.
It
And
that
was
objects.
They were
somebody
though
it
liked in
was
the job.
slightly hubristic
was
it
all
into
about a
prints
and drawings.
Veit Stoss,
also wanting to
the
who
And
this
liked
Dodgson on German
my own
Germany by
was
steering
how I saw
all
as a problem,
hadn't been
had
like
was something
two
But
for example.
it,
wanted to do
sculpture,
wanted to not
and indeed
people
to.
do a more
solid
between
think; that's
Painting and
Experience.
SMITH:
will
Limewood to
place, but
maybe we could
115
seem
we
to be
sort
more
of move from
shifts
at the
taking
Warburg.
You
had a
set lecture
BAXANDALL:
and seminar
way
Well, the
it
SMITH: But
it
was
BAXANDALL:
we
all
Yes,
it
saw
think.
course
at the
it
SMITH:
Italian or
BAXANDALL:
the
M.
it
might be a
In the
M.
enjoyed teaching a
criticism,
lot,
and
taught
it
rather well,
did one
on economic
The other
history,
was teaching
things varied.
did one
on
European?
was
It
Warburg,
Melanchthon, and
my main
amount of art
art criticism in
of thing. Otherwise
this
which
as central, and
Renaissance
it.
take
which
Italian
Phil,
Phil.
Phil.,
M.
year to year.
116
thought
balance.
One had
dialectic.
that's
one's time.
BAXANDALL:
SMITH: These
start that
No,
did
it
as lecturer already.
mentioned before,
Were
SMITH: What
lecturer to reader?
about trends
suppose
do a whole
lot
It
at
were seeing
think
U.K. from
was
coming
to
you
with, the
the materials?
one
felt
one had to
refit
and
of rather heavy reading of new books; otherwise one was not going to
learnt a lot.
BAXANDALL:
as
of questions;
things,
it
is
It's difficult
in
shifting.
things,
117
in
Institute
than Frankfurt,
really, that I
was aware
difficult to sort
of sum
in
SMITH:
it
up
of;
it,
but
it
was
was such
it
a big shift
find
it
rather
was
structuralism.
BAXANDALL:
call
it
structuralism
then.
SMITH: But
Althusser
BAXANDALL:
was
also important.
Yes, Althusser
of my students happened to be
and
though
still isn't,
SMITH: But
didn't really
know
Althusser
interested.
think
it
was not
was
part
of my repertory,
generally structuralism.
BAXANDALL:
I first
student
to work.
He
at
Stony Brook,
SMITH: To what
me
and
his
for a year or
two
to
Munich
Of course
else.
I'm
BAXANDALL:
important to
Tim
Yes, they were making a noise and of course they were hugely
Clark.
They
didn't register
118
much;
aware of them.
SMITH: And
I'm assuming from that therefore not with your students either,
particularly.
BAXANDALL:
No,
outside of people
SMITH:
this
It's
were known
at the
time
much
in
England,
of London
at
time was the Screen collective, and the set of events that they organized,
BAXANDALL:
No,
SMITH: Okay.
BAXANDALL:
history and
SMITH:
is
become permanent,
BAXANDALL:
Yes,
much
I
The
now
And
film studies
is
a stretch from
think.
keep looking
most.
at the
lie
at film studies,
but
it
seems to
up with the
my work.
literature, I don't,
a lot of the
regularly keep
me
I'd like
don't
that
119
me
My interests are
in
does
this.
SMITH:
I'm sure
Besides
seventies that
it
I'd
haven't
come
At
that time
in Britain in the
BAXANDALL:
art history,
and
exists,
on the Continent or
in Britain.
Image come
it
can't
rather later
be before the
think.
late seventies.
v/as
was
was reading
that sort
like
Word and
started, but
at that time.
wasn't a
Italy.
in the U.S.,
me,
like
Germany and
it
was not
that sort
of journal.
Very often
one would meet a journal through somebody giving one a copy of an issue which
happened to have an
article
120
beyond
was
way
the
it
went. But
was very
interested in
New
Literary History.
SMITH: When
BAXANDALL:
issue.
more
did your students start raising questions about gender and sexuality?
I'd
it
came up
in
Looked
women were
interesting extensions
at
doing
in
Renaissance
it
Italy
Institute,
which
a rather
is
SMITH:
more than
and
for this, in the ten years from the early seventies to the early eighties this
that level;
was much
women
was
really
had done.
It's
it
it's
some
feminist scholars,
that
would
fit
into
your
BAXANDALL:
witchcraft and
Warburg angle
It
certainly did,
worked on
it
lot.
suppose
who were
really
didn't
in particular
was
work on
it
interested in
subject
myself, but
from a
I
was
of this
subject to the continuity of the classics, extensions of this, and the relationship of
121
on
don't
was
a rather
SMITH: What
BAXANDALL:
seventies quite.
They came
good
early because
seventies
still isn't
knew people
don't
that
remember
much gay
at
SMITH:
and
Berkeley, and
good book on
Those
on.
think
knew about
really, in relationship
that
but
interpretation
this.
But
to Italian
quite
in the
art.
There
BAXANDALL:
don't
remember
think
that,
was more
it.
was working
still
in
was
the
Did you have students who were excited about your vision of social history
art history,
gender
was
someone wrote
degree to which a
initially in
being studied,
it
Narcissus
students.
deal later.
in
it
further than
but
in
touch with.
and
It's difficult
Of course
was very
to live in
122
England
elite cultural
objects,
and
it
is
And
in
this; this is
more acute
like myself,
because
solved
somebody
if
art,
think
do
feel
still
much
which
art,
historian.
haven't
it's
very
simply because
art
something which
analyses of elite
it
Low
lies
art is
throws on high
art.
SMITH: But
would
then that gets back to the questions that one's asking. The questions,
BAXANDALL:
how
I'd
wonder.
think in
have to admit
the objects
certain sort
I've
come
my
case often
would
know
difficult to
like.
think
the
Warburg
England,
it
of question.
BAXANDALL:
afternoons.
find
liked than
in
One
'68,
We didn't
really
have
123
of '68 to 72?
remember
any rate
incidents.
my
case,
and
this
in
It's
France,
in
maybe not
Germany, where
very
friends were,
it
more than
in
extent,
there,
France,
my
a bit about
if I
were being
sense of '68 as
it
really honest
in Italy,
at that time,
it
SMITH:
If I
later.
'68.
So
a matter of internal
think.
is
may be wrong
that in
in Paris.
but not as
Germany
To
was not
here,
it
was
a lesser
have to say
politics; the
think that
my main
and England
aware of
universities.
this, I'd
France
about
think
more than
So
impression
knew
fairly well
as well
much
that sort
I've
on
in the
in
Warburg
as well informed as
This period that we've been talking about could be described in a number of
much of left
pop
film kinds
of things.
respond to this?
124
BAXANDALL:
happened rather
Now, how
more
Well, the
earlier;
As
Cambridge when
started going to
reasons;
it
SMITH:
lots
think
people
is
my
impression
is
and early
that this
sixties.
was
it
at
in the sixties I
was playing?
that
yes.
told
was good.
American movies a
Movies came
lot too.
whereas the popular music was new. Listening to the Beatles and other
at that
time was a
new
that
happened to go more.
in,
say
back
a lot
BAXANDALL:
I'd
movies again.
was simply
far as
saw
thing
it
seriously.
first
suppose
came
don't
remember
as a student
music a
little bit
more
in
easily
because of that.
it
was an
BAXANDALL:
listening to popular
interesting social
It
was
do most of my writing
in
in
the
air.
it,
or because you
first thing.
125
The second
two
thing
at night,
and
is I
it?
used to
used to
find
it
nothing else to
SMITH: Oh,
listen to at that
was very
Yes,
in
was
was
off?
was
It
time of night.
BAXANDALL:
to.
by having
classical
meet
didn't
it
through
that.
didn't get a
getting a television.
SMITH: Not
to
BAXANDALL:
passed on from
SMITH: Given
my
that
your wife
is
a painter,
some
degree.
BAXANDALL: To
some
degree.
London
art scene,
my
wife,
that sort
but yes,
and people
at that time,
I'd
in
of thing. So
was
got to
it
was
didn't think
lot
can't pretend to
various
deliberate.
it
mother-in-law.
art to
contemporary
hope.
certainly did
ways
be deeply involved
was aware,
know through
still
the family.
partly through
it
wasn't in any
had quite a
126
lot to
the
my
father
in
in art schools,
way
who was
do with
it.
very
really
SMITH:
BAXANDALL:
when
suppose pop
was examining
was
in its
for instance?
was examining.
art
in art schools,
encountered him.
BAXANDALL: Oh yes,
with
my wife
BAXANDALL:
him
He was
in that
to
at Chelsea.
lunch.
partly because
Museum, because he
pub quite
frequently.
know of him?
already
knew of when
never
knew
was
at the
same pub
as
for
but
we
have never
exchanged a word.
pop
artists
were
doing?
BAXANDALL:
Yes
tried to think
of them a
bit in
terms of my
me
So
127
to,
skills.
connect
it
in
to this
Roger Fry
tradition that
same
you
time
BAXANDALL:
taste,
which
suppose
think of it
more
in the
seemed to me a
you get
of thing.
It
also
1920s painting
in
fits in I
in
Many
There
is
natural
to
pop
So
art.
it
didn't
Wood, who
in
tried to
ways close
art
seem
to
me
so strange.
which comes
It
seemed
to
in
me
some
a fairly
move.
BAXANDALL:
knew of him,
but
SMITH: So
the object
the
way
was not
BAXANDALL:
aware of it
much
in
at
time?
don't think he
at this
Warburg
Institute,
but
about.
He
don't think he
was
all.
a topic of discussion?
That
is
either
in the seventies in
American or
later,
London.
128
or both.
don't
know, but
wasn't
SMITH: Okay.
know how
have one
extensive
last
will be;
it
thing
it
wanted to
could go on or
talk to
it
don't
As you
are
probably aware, the correspondence between Adrian Stokes and Gombrich was
published not too long ago by Richard Read.
BAXANDALL:
SMITH:
Yes.
wondered
if you
they might be, that might help one interpret Gombrich's relationship to Stokes
and to
particular,
BAXANDALL:
intellectual
art criticism
Yes,
this is
was
have a bad
general?
here between
split
in
remember
Institute, in
which
either
Gombrich was
or Stokes was talking about Gombrich, and the other one was present.
this.
it
was
the
is
a seminar at the Slade School of Fine Art, in University College, across the
and
in
Adrian Stokes
really couldn't
on the other
was on Gombrich's
side emotionally.
rather clearly;
it's
in
to this
think everybody
felt
had
side intellectually,
comes out
and
in
some ways
correspondence
in their
129
went
art criticism,
only
knew
Stokes to talk
to, I didn't
know him
closely, but
admire very much several of his books. The Quattro Cento and Stones of Rimini
seem
is
to
me great
who
criticism, but
So
art criticism.
It's
a case of a
can't sustain
that's really
how
an argument
saw
in
in a
which
all
intuitive,
this is
done
gut art
conceptual way.
that relationship,
and
this is
complicated, because
in
England there was the old-established and rather good English tradition of sensitive
art criticism,
maybe too
archaeologists.
It
sensitive.
wasn't a
homogeneous
were
and
still like.
I still
individual streams
I feel,
of Ruskin for
all
sorts
for a stage in
of reasons. This
it's
England was a
sort
someone who
art history.
which
of German, Kantian
art history
don't
know
different way.
didn't
many people of my
was fond of
the
was worried
in
same
is
those years
130
in
sort
of education.
it
in
am,
rather.
lost.
was
really sorry
England.
I still
that.
is
in
it's
not as simple as
really was.
And
SMITH:
Is there
B AXANDALL:
been rereading
Roger
anybody from
that tradition
Richard Wollheim,
recently,
its
is in
many ways
I've
SMITH: To what
think,
who
I'd
this.
Is that a
factor?
B AXANDALL:
No,
at
any
rate.
BAXANDALL:
think
am
a moral urgency?
Not even
indirectly,
it
that, directly.
seems to
me
131
is
last
stage themselves.
prefer the sort of criticism which establishes something from which people can
on themselves.
In other words,
would say
much
move
of projection are
highly personal, can be incorrect or correct, but are best not specified by the art
SMITH: To what
engaged
in intellectual
BAXANDALL:
in
discourse?
For about
still
critic.
we saw
in
summer,
Berwickshire, which
is
my
years ago.
132
few
SESSION FOUR:
MAY,
1996
SMITH:
wanted to connect
Language of Art
use the terms
it
you wrote
in
art criticism
and
is
In that article
think
would say
that.
later in
which
You
["The
you say
that
you
found interesting
is
in
is
I'm wondering to what degree you see art history as a conspiracy against the
BAXANDALL:
Well, conspiracy
would be putting
it
relationship to the
structures are
on
development.
does
all levels:
suppose
art criticism
very often
I'd
now than
interests
less to say
me
element
a lot and
and the
about
in relationship to
do
or art
art criticism
lexical, syntactical,
have
it's
still
larger, dialectical
this in relationship to
lies in
133
how one
culture's
on
reflection
art as
being registered
first in
say,
Renaissance
would
lie first
for
of which
art criticism,
a collective thing, a
commonplaces,
So
that if
one
my
is
in the
teaching,
emphasis
think that's
where
see
it
becomes incompetent.
number of people
it is
covert; that
is
who
"conspiracy."
insists
it's
how
think in this essay you talk about the art historian as the person who's
well, but
I've
in
and then
SMITH:
art,
often have a
much on what
of the
As
many of which
the terms,
art critic
that
on
didn't see.
like
it
by pointing;
art criticism
that's all
so,
is
think.
is
somehow
certainly better
done by
that
it's
works of art
better.
is
134
don't
mean
doing.
It
wrote for
asked to write
was
it,
and
about
art history
found rather
time.
It
was just
nice, but
SMITH:
irritating.
may even be
their
It
to write
was
a peculiar
it
telling
Well, certainly
some
is
one
in art history.
of argument which
level
is,
think the
have always
don't
it
that at that
tell
anyway
justifiable,
but
of the discourse
form of saying what they thought they were doing, or what would be
BAXANDALL:
criticism
lot
of the
a very bad-tempered
it.
BAXANDALL:
was asked
is
mean
felt
is
two have
at the
doing,
if
one
is
room
one argues
for a multiplicity
that out
You
art
of art
histories.
made out
135
perfectly
is
art,
think
do other things
is
one
of,
sort
of art history
SMITH:
It
in
it's
been
reaffirmed in this interview series, that there seems to be periodic recognition and
920s
perhaps
it
crisis
discipline,
going back to
didn't
at least the
so
that every
self-flagellation.
BAXANDALL:
been a
lot
of that.
developed
my
One comes
side
out of the
time there's
of it
is
When one
think.
That's
like
Italy, for
is
example, you've
good
archaeological school of art history, and you had a superb tradition of art criticism
if
and archaeologist
136
traditions,
and
in
critic
Germany one
had
this extraordinarily
international,
Now,
who had
homogeneous
sort
discussions.
both a philological
when
these
all
started
I'm not saying they didn't exist, but I'm not hugely aware of pre- 193 9
arguments.
BAXANDALL:
anniversary issue.
there in the
field,
was
It
the editor,
looked back
who
at the
think
It
was an
it
was
SMITH:
In
focus
is
thematic, and you're using that body of work to talk about southern
end of the
fifteenth
Germany
Of course
at the
this relates
to things that you've written about in other places, the question of art and society as
you saw,
within
in writing that
German
would be
in
German
Does
the period
blind to?
137
BAXANDALL:
felt
matters.
in
did,
because
Germany
In other words,
terms of cultural
on things
it
it
in this period,
Reformation
itself.
It's
always
What
also
clearly,
them,
in the
seemed
It
to
me
difficult to
it
pattern,
and
than Kimstwollen
ofkonnen
think that
is
seemed
way
in a
also that
to me,
at this
was
skills
in
It
that
it's
intrigued
think
were
moment.
sometimes people
can't
deeply true.
and
Europe generally
me
to
in this
like the
it
handle
Gombrich
Kunstkonnen rather
me
to give an account
the sorts of things which the nationalist critics had dealt with, but dealing with
Wolfflin's Italien
German with
all,
Italian art.
the
was
book
in
them
in
was
which he compares
138
it
was
writing a
book
like that,
SMITH: No,
reading
it.
but
This
think
may
was going
at.
certainly important,
it's
local things
and that
is
is
on interpretations
in
provide a context for the work based on other people's work, which
may
BAXANDALL:
this sort
Inevitably one
is
Yes. This
could, but
it
economic history as
SMITH: So
is
was
the
it
didn't really
would be a
life's
volume of the
read as
do
you
not stand.
much of the
of thing.
relevant
fully as
work.
of the positions?
BAXANDALL:
Well,
little bit
SMITH:
One
in
didn't
Giotto
want to do
going and
see no real
careful.
into
139
BAXANDALL:
One can
secondary sources.
led to those
is
documents by the
Nobody would
suggest, for
No
document. But
it's
SMITH: Throughout
the
book
I felt
that.
foundations of what you were doing, such as the warnings that you gave about the
nature of the market and
its
effects
on
art,
to talk about the art market in a sort of commonsense way, and at the
were concerned
that
alike
is
more than
BAXANDALL:
Yes,
it
seemed
to
me
interesting that
identity,
Not, again,
in the
sense that they were simply constructed by the market, but that they could, within any
town, see a number of strategies out of which they could choose. This intrigued me,
because
it
Nobody
certain sort
way
they did
it,
in individual respects.
In
all
140
me
of their
this
was
so.
So
again,
one
rationalizes in hindsight
as an argument against
simple economic determinism, but also trying to see highly specific forms of behavior
SMITH:
art
structure.
its
relationship to
developed between your work on that section of Limewood Sculptors and your
work on
the Picasso section of Patterns of Intention, and your conception of the troc.
BAXANDALL:
morphology one's
when
again
think,
was
is
is
like Apollinaire,
what
whereas he seemed to
me
I felt
who
think the
was
trying to
somebody
much
is
is
who
this not
do
bona
in the
fides, the
good
will,
or
at
any rate
only in
someone
a figure of fun in
many
histories
of art
Also,
criticism,
just find
it
rather boring to give accounts of artists' strategies under the heading of either
come
in,
SMITH: Were
I feel,
but they
calculation.
come
in in
is.
So these market
complicated ways.
141
were
BAXANDALL:
The
first
seemed to me
situation
you have
this setup
one
The next
thing.
rest
This seemed to
me
It's
Also, Italy
it,
marvelous
and the
even
stuff;
rest.
SMITH:
in that
much more
inferential,
It's
if
it
the
cities
were
in the
you
to, I felt,
many
spelled out so
German
and
like
didn't
it.
Of
things one
liked using
Germany,
if
of
in Italy.
only
bigger.
book
in
because the
is,
it
material.
thing
of
it
That's
had done
fascinated me.
want
is
shift
object-focused topics.
BAXANDALL:
SMITH: But
it
Yes,
it
BAXANDALL:
No,
that
is so.
hope
that
book
142
is
it's
arbitrary, but
is
prefer the
theory,
method much.
word method
it's
And
that
was what
to
make
in the
it
What
to theory.
I felt
the
form
art historians
book one
that
of, If this is
was
telling
what
was
is
not
doing, and
interested me.
But there were various preoccupations; my old preoccupation with language was one.
In
what respects
is
what we
I've
way. But
at that stage,
was
work of art
and
think this
is
John Locke,
that
various ways
different
that sort.
to me,
call
was
for
me
So
it's
how one
book
desultory
in a
now think
on Chardin and
it's
wrong
in
go through to do the
job.
wrong?
BAXANDALL:
think
it
role.
like that
I've
in
done a
now.
143
lot
registered
of work on that
since,
and
SMITH: So you
don't feel
conception of attention?
BAXANDALL:
No,
which
rubbish,
simply think
came
it's
attention,
is
think
muffed
slightly
SMITH:
framework
wonder
to
what degree
it; I
that
don't
think
mean
would do a
didn't
understand
much
better
when
art gets
art
from
BAXANDALL:
No,
complicated access
reasons
why
seem
me
to
it
it
doesn't get
seems to me.
about
talk
removed from
don't see
it
history,
as
it
removed from
we
my
in
is
suppose
in art.
It
moment
in
1981.
in
It
history.
is
One of the
that
does
it
own
however value
free
it
was
144
one's thinking and talking about art and one had better accept that and be clear about
it.
SMITH:
Valuation understood
BAXANDALL:
It
in a
suppose
had
always
really I've
document,
in
felt,
in
and
more
exclude
it,
SMITH:
wonder
All
attention.
we
which unlike an
art
one has
in
meaning,
can do
is
art object,
exclude
can't
it;
if you
may
it
may be
Well, the
is
So you
that there
BAXANDALL: One
SMITH:
think.
would
art carries
historical
this
BAXANDALL:
I feel.
One
category which
is
can't say
very
much about
the material
That
is
we
point.
intuit, I
suppose.
years.
145
"I didn't
BAXANDALL:
Yes,
way
practical
understand the
is
to look at a painting.
is
discussing
is
in
the sense
related to various
processes of cognition. There's a set of rather obscure but very important processes
that
go on
we
my
mind, there
have, what the French in the eighteenth century called inquietude, which has a
So
it
is
in that
sense
at pictures
is
we do
something
like attention,
more
useful to
inquietude
work
because
in the
me
is
are
it's
It's
of attention
but
find
don't find
it
much
whereas for
it.
at
is
it
simply a negative,
a picture in a sustained
it's
way
is
a very, very
at a picture
seems to
146
me
what we
attention to inquietude;
SMITH:
it's
So
it.
In these categories, to
me now.
culturally
determined and to what degree are they physiological, and to that degree independent
of culture?
BAXANDALL: Do you
SMITH:
Well, no,
BAXANDALL:
three percent
SMITH: So
is
want a percentage?
it
that
way.
there
is
is
BAXANDALL:
Yes, yes
do think
so.
is
some
that percentage
was
BAXANDALL:
SMITH: Okay.
have a colleague
Behavioral Sciences
who
is
at the
It
was
rhetoric.
doing research
in
the
147
in
felt
was
physiological.
are
What were
full
up to your achieving
that position?
BAXANDALL:
SMITH: Was
suppose
just
BAXANDALL: No
SMITH: Did you
BAXANDALL:
replace
Yes,
SMITH: To what
somebody?
in
fundamental decisions
was
suppose
inconsistent.
Initially I
at a later stage
I felt
suppose
staff, at
my way.
was
in
all,
It
wasn't that
the
Warburg run
don't
mean
there
SMITH: Was
course
teaching, not at
my
department?
148
of a university
that
BAXANDALL:
Yes,
it
was
than
all
can't
it
was about
SMITH: Were
this
we
BAXANDALL:
on
traditions.
classical antiquities
and
its
Warburg became
Was
this
increasingly focused
BAXANDALL:
but
think
it
think
maybe
was working
continental
so
I'd
time
German
there,
SMITH: Did
earlier,
England.
When
it
was
in
out even
itself
of the people
it
classicists,
or Austrian classics;
was
and
it is
and
the
think
it's
Warburg came
more
literary,
I'd
suspect
it
got something to do
rather
it
period,
to England,
is
not at
more
all
many
like
philological,
was underway
all
the
before.
lie
elsewhere?
BAXANDALL:
did feel a
little
149
I felt
And
it
seemed to me
that
was what
That's
classics.
if
got a good section on Virgil there are many different things you could do with
BAXANDALL:
No,
in
Germany
has
Fry,
you know.
me
as very
Warburgian
true.
is
in the
am aware
that
who
bearing.
do
it.
a sort of
had developed.
in
become an important
Roger
way
the
think that
twenty years
in
strikes
you've
it
in
don't see
trying to
do a
Warburg."
in
at
Warburg?
BAXANDALL:
it
like that
and
little art
don't think
this time,
it
history at the
was taken
considering your
Warburg. No,
as that.
first
perhaps not
in the utterly
150
BAXANDALL:
Yes.
think
was
trying to get at
it
both ways;
in fact, I liked
liked thinking
of myself, and
interest in art.
But
do was Warburgian
But
art history.
teach
came
BAXANDALL:
think one time
did find
advantageous
it
who had
what
was
don't
hobby
trying to
know whether
really didn't
teaching at Cornell?
lectured on
German
art,
and
also
was
doing.
at
had
in the
bound
to be, because
my
was
suppose
it
was
all
art history.
SMITH: When
was whatever
that
it
that,
And
It
was
me
in.
it
in the
middle seventies.
some of them
did
you
start
external
art history
decided not
to.
department.
151
BAXANDALL:
was my
Then
first trip.
me
experiment for
came
to see if I
BAXANDALL:
figure.
So
it
SMITH: And
He
didn't.
to teach a quarter,
like teaching in
an American university.
It
was
L. D. Ettlinger, an old
that
should
Warburg
come
had
left
think
would
78
BAXANDALL:
after that.
to Berkeley in
permanently, but
75
in
had made
Gilbert.
my
He went
first visit.
to Yale
When you
are
SMITH: Oh,
is
that all?
some
lectures and
seminars, one talked a lot to their graduate students, because their department wasn't
SMITH: So you
you had no
BAXANDALL:
SMITH: What
No,
led
it
really
was
152
at
Berkeley, in '85?
direct
BAXANDALL:
I'd
come
in '82 to
The
factors.
basis
Warburg
could
Warburg, and
retired.
come
make
don't
question, and
didn't
it
rather a
in the
Humanities, which
lot.
began to
change then,
want
to.
didn't
feel
it
would spend
my whole
lot
of
had been
to
at the
make
career at the
they'd have
certainly didn't
want
And
graceful.
mean,
know whether
seem very
role, didn't
took to
Lectures
middle-aged restlessness.
and
change. If I didn't
Una
fact that
on which
give the
that.
All sorts
to
it
bit in
full
personal and
intellectual.
BAXANDALL:
people
in this
got to
department, since
no longer
here, but
from 78
knew people
was going
to
do
it,
in
78 when
was
here,
sixties.
know
lot
and some
in this
by then, so he was
didn't
have a huge
of approaches.
I felt
California.
153
if
the
one
SMITH: What
classes
Do you
graduate classes?
BAXANDALL:
SMITH:
Both, yes.
presume, on some
BAXANDALL:
SMITH: Oh,
it
It is
is?
level, the
was
was, or
all
is in
thesis,
at
in
that different.
it
not
what ways?
BAXANDALL: Most
supervisor
is
In
graduate training
was
now become
in
an
thesis was,
every three months. So that was the center of my teaching there, apart from the
history undergraduates, and the rhetoric in the M.Phil, course.
seminars play
much more of a
role.
Everything
is
much more
Here
at
Berkeley, the
structured, and
think
on the whole people writing theses reckon on getting more guidance than they do
England. In England you
may
in
really tell
154
do,
SMITH: What
about with the undergraduate classes? Have you had to teach any of
BAXANDALL:
made
was an upper
SMITH: So
whereby
was
did a course
on
Italian
Renaissance
in
art
and
division course.
It
was
good
course,
it
went
its
it
well.
BAXANDALL:
in
and do what
necessary.
is
have moved
here mainly between the Renaissance and the eighteenth century, and on the whole
what
SMITH: To what
degree
is
BAXANDALL:
No, there
think
think
many of us
it's
fair to
aren't really.
say that
on who
else
is
here, what's
there a departmental
intellectual life?
other, but
bit
that
you
common
interest,
participate in?
many people
or a shared
am
BAXANDALL: When I
we
and
talk to each
myself, and
me
fine.
came
give the
155
Una
Intention,
sort
was summoned,
of justify myself.
group,
fruitful
group as a
whom
you have
particularly
exchanges here?
BAXANDALL:
department,
dissimilar
I'd
who
enough
is
mention particularly
for
whom
wonder
now
group to
that's the
SMITH: Are
it
to be profitable.
or
if you
have connections
BAXANDALL:
art history
ideal is
departments where there are things going on, such as environmental design, where
there are people
there
is
who
who
were both
try
156
in the
haven't had
met and
Also,
much
liked,
and
his
know what
SMITH: Are
who
success.
science?
BAXANDALL:
No,
me
talk
about
it.
SMITH:
Actually,
it's
it
part
topics which are both arcane and probably highly disputatious within the various fields
BAXANDALL:
Again,
it's
one
to
is
make
doing.
SMITH:
one
is
One
it
at
all,
do
it
unless
one's going to do
is
of.
wrong work. So
if
could argue that somebody's got to take the odium for trying to do
it.
eighteenth-century intellectual history and ideas of cognitive process and vision at the
would be a neatly-bounded
project,
without making any comments about the ultimate nature of vision and cognition or
perception,
certain sets
157
of ideas affected
artistic practice,
BAXANDALL:
that.
how
it is
to be, you're
the
two
eighteenth-century folk
bound
And
if you're
my
do
saw
be authentic?
this
come
done
at the
together.
how
moment.
to their angle
suppose what
I've
on
done
things,
is
which
try to
keep
is
suppose
have found
bit
really likely
it's
In a way,
how
mean,
without thinking a
become committed
art critic's.
it
thinking about
better to keep
status.
how the
would
don't
it
want to
my
independence and
my
amateur
pro.
SMITH:
you're discussing
Paracelsus, or the Paracelsian conceptions, you don't have to assume that there
reality.
BAXANDALL:
No,
that
is
left
certainly so.
from
that.
is
But
done has
and
Experience, the "Period Eye" one, which, with extraordinary inelegance, assumes
that
and the other, one assumption being there are certain mechanisms by which a
way we
see, to a degree.
158
think
my
interests
now
are
still
this,
about
it
still
many ways,
SMITH: How
BAXANDALL:
me
to interest
attend to
it
in a
whole
on eighteenth-century
shadow
about shadows
stuff.
a culture
don't think
That would be
how on
shadows
earth
as a topic
lot
it's
this?
emerge?
it
came
at the pictures,
attends to
So
in
talk
looking
it
in
at a picture is
I'd find
straight.
interesting in
all
sorts
it's
of ways
in art,
in his pictures.
So
it
just
came up
when
way, or
the painter
how
he thinks
course of working on
in the
attention.
SMITH: You've
interests.
BAXANDALL:
Well, yes.
Inquietude, which
levels
work
is
in
The
provisional
title
you know,
for the
that
is
book
is
Three Levels of
the working
title.
The
three
159
which
stuff,
say,
And
art serves.
and
it's
in this
taken
more on
case trying to do
me
when
Initially,
interested
me was
moved on
SMITH:
century
in
is
attention,
inquietude
is
book by
of accounts of how
Dubos, writing
it is.
But, as
man
it
like that.
and ennui
is
it
called Jean
in
called
La
was a preoccupation.
simply restlessness.
the eighteenth
Deprun
really
in relation to ennui,
lot
what
an interesting concept.
There are a
that's
Inquietude
BAXANDALL:
So
pictures.
modern
It's
like [Jean-Baptiste]
of art
is
to be therapeutic
not boredom,
it's
restlessness.
SMITH: Does
that
BAXANDALL:
think
it
weaker
lot
it
in this sense,
like the
modern
sense.
160
it
in
his
SMITH:
Bouguer
Principle," [Representations,
12 (Fall 1985): 32-43] you mention that you got a lot of what seemed to be negative
BAXANDALL:
SMITH:
the
Yes,
I did.
way you
BAXANDALL:
consciously.
crafted
that at
all.
I still feel
which
feel
felt
that
earlier.
is
no reason not to do
it,
did then.
It's
was
I
turning
don't feel
an interest
in
New Historicism,
simply, again,
but
it
people as saying, "Stop the social history of art!" Which wasn't what
that
a matter
if at all?
that
meant.
group?
BAXANDALL:
suppose, no.
different.
how one
like
don't
want to do
that sort
uses them
is
what
161
think
my
is
somehow
interest in
in
it.
I'm interested in using art as a historical document and using knowledge of historical
But
together.
SMITH: And
two
No,
it is
Insofar as
it's
in the
my
loyalties
myself as involved
SMITH:
Is
go
think of
that.
don't think
it's
in style at a
art history?
been productive.
between the semiotic on the one hand and the hermeneutic on the
suppose
to
see what you are doing in relationship to, say, [Mieke] Bal's
me
to
BAXANDALL:
seem
things
happened.
really
up
is
these
BAXANDALL:
setting
art;
would be
other,
and
No,
don't see
your response
in part
aspect of cognition?
BAXANDALL:
history, as
it's
Well, this
is
done programmatically,
is
It
162
art
its
origins
in
it,
but
psychoanalytic theory
think there
read quite a
bit
of things.
don't
know
if
fit
into
Is there
would
we
like
is.
around. Obviously,
if
book
to do anything formal
and a whole
what
do to be a
little bit
do
is
differently plotted
by
its
meaning, the
last
One
sets
which
spells
up the frame
for
own
around
telling other
people
SMITH: Or whether
BAXANDALL:
how
It
don't
do see
it
as
is
liable to
be
experience and
it;
that
is
how
see
one can do
seems to
me
it.
Not
as a
well, or well
really offensive to
163
isn't
If one's taking a
stimuli.
What
there.
should switch
off before the final stage of identifying the cathexes one's invited to project.
urgencies, and
any
BAXANDALL:
about
different.
is
quite the
same
as
was
thinking
go
about.
would say
that that
as a sort of citizen.
BAXANDALL:
tends to be
one
No,
somebody
like
haven't really.
me
much more
earlier.
continued reading
critic's
is
any hot
tips
the cognitive,
in
It
anthropological linguistics?
hasn't
been what
on what to
MIT,
read.
[Jerry
I've
What
A] Fodor
It's
end.
know what
don't
Fodor.
Do
you
know him?
BAXANDALL:
thing;
up
to.
am
slightly a butterfly,
admit that
SMITH:
work. In
particular, I
intellectual roots
was
to
I'd
have to
interested in earlier.
to his analysis
of the
164
to his
BAXANDALL:
SMITH:
of Artl
Yes.
BAXANDALL:
we
think
He
is
marvelous reader, and he points out when I'm making a fool of myself, you know,
when my argument
the
dog
problems.
fall I
isn't
working.
it
on, with a
was reading
view to comprehension.
and he sometimes
the manuscript of a
did very
is difficult
much
see
it
in his thinking,
When
them. Leavis
SMITH: How
about?
another,
is
did the
What was
someone
two or
have different
to understand.
In the
what
when
it
my
was
So
my thinking.
it's
think that's
asymmetrical
in that
fair.
way.
is
one of
still.
book
that
is it
like to write
book with
else?
BAXANDALL:
things,
is
We both
terms of saying
in
am much more
and
it
Neither of us
is
independently.
it
on
it
165
again.
if either
it
Originally
the
to be a book;
was going
it
to be an article,
and
it
grew.
Svetlana had written an article jointly with her former husband, Paul Alpers.
that
we
we wrote
we wanted
to say, but as
it
was
had
We found
like.
soon as either of us
sat
down
to
It
lot
write
it,
also
from
different cultures.
a very
It's
something
odd
like that,
thing,
even
we
divided
it
up.
if you
don't
know
if you've
how
like
SMITH: To what
down and
it
everybody
degree do you
is
a very
being
said.
odd experience,
else.
know what
do now.
you
one
is
you
sit
begin?
BAXANDALL:
find
different
it is
what
don't
When
I
I'm writing
used to do
166
that,
now
all
is
that if
sorts
of
reasons
One of the
scale
And
reasons
is
in one's plan;
if you
one
that
can't, in
something
may
planned a
if I've
now
than
used to
lot.
It's
thinking
in the
do
find
do
get
more
less thinking
argument.
SMITH: At what
start
There are
because
it's
different levels
write a third of a
level
Is that
with?
BAXANDALL:
is, I
point
in
SMITH:
I've
On
the whole,
what happens
of argument.
like loose-textured
arguments
on the
in the last
the relative merit of focusing an art history article on one painting or object versus a
large
number of objects,
a synoptic view,
suppose, of a period or an
artist.
Do you
BAXANDALL:
much
Yes,
do have
The second
167
The
thing
I'd
first
say
thing
is
I'd
say
that a lot
is
that
of things
one
can't
do
picture one
that
is
back
now
in,
picture.
Of course many
in
my
it's
not about a
book on two
be coming
will
people
All
in too.
my
one
SMITH:
Is there a
BAXANDALL:
now
is
never been,
I've
really,
think
No.
work
first
in
and the
Giotto
I'm doing
BAXANDALL:
reasons.
I've
Yes.
Orators,
it
got dragged
when
had
And
into.
it
So,
all.
it
What
that,
Was
an archival historian.
BAXANDALL:
I
No,
SMITH: So
to.
the
Warburg and
I still
fall at
library.
was
Yes. Also,
168
for
all
sorts
My mind
of
has been
Gertrud Bing.
feel
an element of guilt.
It
have preferred
may be
I'd
absurd, but
stayed there.
do
feel
Gertrud Bing.
When
term, which
director.
I first
is
But
here,
gave
it
up
BAXANDALL:
find
No,
history
from
Europe
in
it,
but
find.
This
go back and
was
two
quite apart
books
in
still
to clear out
would have
preferred,
manage your
not
Trapp was
good moment
finding that
life
be recommended.
it's
is
fall
is
One
is
told
one
is
lucky,
halves;
from
it
London and
it's
two
thirds.
It
being exhausting
so on.
On
doesn't
and
forth.
paintings.
was
a sense one
in
London. So
director
at that
co
it's
stimulating, to
SMITH: You
in
Also,
then.
don't think
up to a whole,
awkward when
it is
new
relatively easy to
it
quite add
SMITH: Do you
here,
came
What about
Bay Area
is
Are they
sufficient for
your purposes?
BAXANDALL:
is in
danger of running
where
169
it is
down
going to be
difficult to
work
here.
getting
first
It's
surprising
how
quickly
it
(I'm sending a message) they're going to ruin not only the library but this department
is
aren't
a great library;
all
at the
it's
moment,
BAXANDALL:
Cahill,
economic and
it's
something
like
how many we
in
strength
we
are at the
demography of the
in
many
fifty-five
There's a gap, so
bad
really
in that
a year.
its
faculty
from
think this
university, the
it's
full
United States?
eight or nine.
should be
really bad.
moment
It
is
age of faculty
age
way.
170
away from
the students.
BAXANDALL:
SMITH:
Will
done enough.
SMITH:
What
is
This
is
to be retiring soon.
BAXANDALL:
I've
that
will not.
I'd like
to teach
I've
on a
recall basis?
done an awful
lot
of teaching
in
my
time,
think
sift
it's
important for
Do
museums and
the owners
is
art historians.
you
find that
need to reshoot?
BAXANDALL:
It
varies hugely.
because one
if
Some museums
difficult;
good enough
are
can't get a
some
often,
illustrate
something
sort
in the last
On
would always
like to
171
it's
difficult to
know
what
ceiling
was
we
to do.
was
a case in which
we
much
in
found that a
very bright,
of Tiepolos, being
artificial light,
which
new
this.
lot
we
considered them
much more
true.
think there's a general problem of that sort, in that an awful lot of the
It is
illustrate things in
lot
wrong
in a
angle.
can't get a
decent
Limewood Sculptors,
and
yet, clearly,
And you
it
lighting.
The
it
They
really
lighting
was too
flashy,
or
it
was
in the
book,
could say that that sort of highlighting might attract more people
it's
totally
false in lighting or in
very often.
books are
wrong. There
In southern
are, in
Germany
was
a superb,
172
But
photographer.
SMITH: But
think sculpture
with Shadows
is
much more
difficult to
and Enlightenment,
you have
for example,
particular
or, in fact,
good
are
constructing that kind of argument, then you are directing the eye in a different way.
Was
that a
problem
BAXANDALL:
use.
it
was
came
at all?
think
it
was
which objects to
think once one had decided that, actually getting the transparency, or whatever
which Yale
in
did for
wasn't
me
some of the
so terrible, though
in that
book
things that
was concerned
agony of art
it is
the special
lecture.
SMITH: Do you
students, or
BAXANDALL:
suppose
it
books.
got a
letter last
week from
173
don't think
many
of holes, and he
that
was
the
know
who work
such people
accessible to them.
shoulder
worked
person
first
am
sort.
is
Also,
in
and
same
field.
Not
But
And one
is
that.
been to two.
quite like
little
BAXANDALL:
paper, and
Bouguer
SMITH: Do you go
I've
who
in the
exist,
I still
whole book. So
went
this
gave that
had to go to interview
SMITH:
think
BAXANDALL:
SMITH:
No,
come
174
to an end.
wonder
if you
might have
51
INDEX
Alberti,
Leon
Battista,
76
Buddensieg, Tilman, 96
Althusser, Louis,
Burckhardt, Jacob, 74
1 1
Burke, Peter,
Antal, Frederick, 99
1 1
Arslan, Edoardo,
Cahill,
39-40
James, 170
Cardew, Michael, 2
Arts Society, 24
Caretti, Lanfranco,
39
Auerbach, Erich, 51
Ayer, A.J., 77
Chomsky, Noam, 82
WW.,
Barclay,
60
118-119
53
Courtauld
I.
38-39, 68,
Institute,
105-106, 107
M. Thomas
Berenson, Bernard, 24
Derrida, Jacques, 80
Berkeley, George 23
Dodgson, Campbell,
Bilanovich, Giuseppe, 73
1 1
169
Blake, William, 87
Blunt, Anthony, 25-26, 52, 68, 73,
Ehrenzweig, Anton, 66
104, 105
Elias, Norbert,
Empson, William, 33
Bolding, Kenneth, 83
Bouguer,
Bowra,
Pierre,
CM,
62-63
174
Ettlinger, L.D.,
12
Fazio, Bartolomeo,
Brown, Roger, 77
Finley,
175
Moses, 92
76
Frankfort, Henri, 58
150
Frye, Northrop, 34
Kristeller,
Kubler, George, 83
Gage, John, 97
Garin, Eugenio, 73
Gilbert, Creighton,
152
Lancilotti, Francesco,
Giotto
and the
98
Landino, Cristoforo, 98
138, 149
Mann, Thomas, 33
Mason, Harold, 15,
Gombrich, Use, 61
53, 58
Greco,
Juliette,
35
17,
18-19
Middeldorf, Ulrich, 99
Gunn, Thorn, 33
Mill,
Habermas,
Jiirgen, 80,
Molho, Anthony, 95
118
Momigliano Arnaldo, 92
Montagu, Jennifer, 88
Mynors, Roger A.B., 16
Hauser, Arnold, 99
Hegel, Georg Wilhelm Friedrich, 23
Herskovits, Melville
J.,
77
137
Hume, David, 23
Nietzsche, Friedrich, 23
Jaffe,
Michael, 25, 26
Jakobson, Roman, 81
176
Century
Italy, 91,
133, 142,
Schopenhauer, Arnold, 23
Sedlmayr, Hans, 41,48, 66
93-103, 111,
158-159
129
Pembroke, Simon, 92
Pevsner, Nikolaus, 25
Stalinism, 7
Strauss, Ernst,
Starn,
Randolph, 156
48
Tasso, Torquato, 39
Prince,
FT., 33
Tiepolo
and the
Pictorial Intelligence,
165-166, 172
Trapp, Joseph B., 89, 91, 101, 149,
153, 169
Raritan, 120
Trexler, Richard
Religion, 4,
Ringbom,
Rock,
Sixten, 68, 93
Irvin,
C, 95
9-10
156
Sapir,
47,
Sabbadini, Remigio, 73
Salvini,
Museum,
Roberto, 109-110
Edward, 77
Wackernagel, Martin, 99
1
14,
Walker,
15
DP,
177
Warburg
Institute
148-150, 168-169
Raymond,
35,
36
Wilson, Angus, 33
Wittgenstein, Ludwig, 16, 20-21, 22,
79
Wittkower, Rudolf, 108
Wolfflin, Heinrich, 24, 43-44, 138
II,
5-8,28,31,37
178
in