Control Valve Positioner

6/9/2015
Controlvalvepositioner
Iwouldliketoknowtheoperationofpositioner.
ByHemanthon8March,200710:56pm
Hi,IamafresherandjustjoinedEssar,wouldliketoknowtheoperationofpositioner.Like4to20
milliampsisconvertedto3to15PSIbyI/P.this3to15psiisthecontrolsignalforpositioner,I
wouldliketoknowtheexactworkingasIamintoprojects.
ByAbhijitGoswami,Haldiaon11March,20076:32pm
2outof2membersthoughtthispostwashelpful...
Apositionerisadeviceputintoavalvetoensurethatitisatacorrectpositionofopeningasperthe
controlsignal.AnI/Pconverteronlysendstheopening/closingrequesttovalvebutcannotconfirm
itsposition.
Positionersensesthevalveopeningthroughapositionfeedbacklinkconnectedtovalvestemwhich
isitsinputsignal.I/Pconverteroutputisitssetpointinput.Thedifferencebetweenthesetwoisthe
errorsignalbasedonwhichthepositionerpositionsthevalvetocorrectpositiontoreduceerrorto
zero.Hencepositionerisnothingbutapneumaticfeedbackcontroller.Controlledexternalsupply
airtopositionerprovidespowertopositionertopositionavalve.Alsopositionerisusedinavalve
whenvalveoperatingsignalrangeisdifferentfromI/Pconverteroutputrange.
Inrecentdayssoftwareconfigurabledigitalpositionerarebeingusedinvalveswhichdonotrequire
I/Pconverterandhasmanyfeatureslikeadvancedvalvediagnostics,partialstroketesting,remote
communicationetc.
ByAnonymouson13March,20071:07am
DearHemanth,
WithoutyouknowingtheconceptofPostioner,whoselectedyouinESSAR?Plsreturntoyour
collegeandstudyonceagainandjoin...Ithinkitwouldbebetterforyou.MR
Bye.
ByAshwanthNarainon24March,20072:45pm
DearMr.Anonymousperson,
Nobodyknowseverything(evenifitisbasics)
http://control.com/thread/1026232438
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6/9/2015
Ifsomebodyneedstogobacktocollege,ifhe/shedoesnotknowabasicconcept,then
everybodywillbesittingincollege
Whatisreallyrequired,isonlytheattitude,
tolearnandkeeplearning
Byanonymouson8December,20073:09pm
DearMr.Anonymousperson,
youarerightwithyourquestionilearndetailaboutthepositionerusallyiusetoonlycalibrate
nowiknowthedetailthankyoupleasedoshareyourknowledgeandproblemyoufaceduring
calibrationiwilllovetoreadit.
ByChandru on1October,20089:16am
Avalvepositionerisadevicewhichexactlypositionsacontrolvalvetotherequiredpositionas
perthesignalgiventoit.
Forexample,ifaprocesschangerequiresthevalvetoopen/closeafurther10%,andaccordinglya
1.2psichangehasbeengiveninthesignaltothevalvediaphragm(withoutapositioner),there's
noguaranteethatthecommandisobliged.Duetofactorslikevalvefriction,staticpressure,etc.,
stemmayassumeonlya7%or8%changeinitspositionandthereby,anerrorincontrol.
Whereasincaseofavalvewithapositioner,thesignalfromthecontrollerisgiventothe
positioner.Thepositionerthencomparesitwithcurrentvalvepositionandgivesanoutput
suitabletothevalvediaphragmuntilthedesiredpositionisachieved.Theoutputfromthe
positionerstabilizeswhenthedesiredposition(signalmatchesfeedbackfromvalvestem)is
achieved.
Inshort,avalvewithpositionermeansaclosedloopcontrol(withfeedback)andwithoutitmeans
anopenloopcontrol.
ByOMIDon25June,20122:17am
Thanksforinfo
couldyoupleaseinformmeinthiscase"wedon'tneedanyactuatorandpositioneriscomplete
andassembledonvalve"that'smeanvalve+positionerworkedascontrolvalve
Byshameerrahman on26November,20143:45am
Thanks,WellExplained
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6/9/2015
ThanksAgain
Bytranslatoron12March,20096:34pm
Istumbleduponthiswebsiteinsearchofsomeknowledge,andIjustwanttothankyouforyour
explanation.Ithelpedtofindtheequivalentinmylanguage.
Byajayon23October,20109:55am
DearSirthanksalotforyourvaluableexplanation.mydoubtsarecleared
Bysumanon17March,201112:28pm
Sir,
Ihaveadoubt.Supposeacontrolvalvewithapneumaticpositionerreceivesinstrumentsignal
fromanIP.IftheItoPisdisturbed..Thenwhichisthebetterway
(1)ToCalibratetheI/Pwithamastergaugeseparatelyandthencalibratethepositioner
Or(2)calibratethepositionerfirstandthencalibratetheItoPwithrespecttothepositioner..
Pleasegivemeareply..
ByNorthSeaTiffyon2November,20114:13pm
Considerthis,please.....themoreerrorfactorsthatexistwithinthesystemcomponents,the
greatertheoverallerrorwillbewithinthecompletesystem.
Iseemuchveryinformedadviceinthisthread,butifyouwillindulgemeamoment,Iwould
liketotakeyoubacktosomemorebasicelementsofsettingupavalvepositioner.
Firstofall,setupthebasicv/vandpositioneralignment(mechanicalalignment)andstroke
lengthforthegivenv/v.
Thesafestwaytodothisistodisablethepositioner'sabilitytocontrolthevalve,byremovingits
supplyairandoutputtubing.
Connectaregulatedairsupplydirectlytothediaphragmofthevalve.Slowlyincreasetheair
feeduntilthev/visat50%ofitstravel,andmaintainitatthisposition.(Donotexceedthestated
maxworkingpressureforthediaphragm!)
Next,checkthedataplateonthevalveforitsstrokelength.Thisfigurewillbeusedwhen
settinguptheStemcouplingdrivepinonthepositioner'sfeedbackarmgraduatedscale(for
example,itistypicallygivenonaKentP3300positionerasbeingXmm,inmultiplesof10mm).
Withthev/vstillinmidposition,carefullyalignthepositionerfeedbackarmashorizontalas
youcanjudgeittobe,andengagethedrivepininthefeebackarmslot,settingitattherequired
figurederivedfromthedataplate.
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Tightenthestemcouplingarm,(useasuitablysizedspannertocounterthemovementofthe
stemcouplingarmasyoufinallytightenup).
Finally,checkthefollowing:
a)thatthev/vstemisstillatmidposition,
b)thatthepositionerfeedbackarmishorizontal
c)thatthedrivepinisstilllocatedinthefeedbackarmdriveslotattherequiredlengthasabove.
Basicalignmentisnowcomplete,andyoumayremovetheregulatorandtubingwhichyouused,
andreinstatethepositionerairsupplyandoutputtubingtoitsoriginalsetup
Next,checkandadjustItoPcalibration
Finally,calibratethepositionertoyourrequirements,(assumingfullrangelinearapplication,a4
to20mAinputproducing0to100%travel)
Checkperformance/linearityandrepeatabilityin25%incrementsupscaleanddownscale.
Bingo...jobdone,withallsourcesoferrorhavingbeeneliminated.(assumingcorrectcamprofile
etcareset)
Theshortofitis,thatthemoreaccuratelyyousetuptheindividualcomponents,thenthemore
accuratewillbetheoverallresult
Hopethisisofhelptoyou!
ByA2on14February,20136:07pm
Niceexplanation,exceptthatforsomepositionerslikeFisher,thefeedbackarmislineupto
thetravelmarkofthearmwhenthevalveisfullyopenorclose.Plasticalignmentpinhastobe
insertedfistifyouaredoingitasperthebook.
Byrishi on12May,20122:10am
YoumustcalibratetheI/Pconvertersothatthereis1to1relationshipbetweeninputandoutput.
IfI/Pisdisturbedandyoucalibratethecontrolvalve,youmaysolvetheproblemtemporarily,
butyourcolleagues&successormaynotknowwhatyouhavedoneandhemayhavetore
calibratethevalveagainifhegoforchangeofI/Pconverter.
ByA.Royon24May,20124:11am
ApositionerwithoutI/PconverterisknownasHART?Pleasegivemesomeideahowitworks.
ByWaltBoyeson24May,201211:39am
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Notnecessarily,althoughmostanaloginput/outputpositionersnowhaveHART
communications.UnlesstheyhaveProfibus,orFoundationfieldbus.
LookupHART,ProfibusandFoundationfieldbusonGoogleformoreinformation.It'sallthere,
incopiousquantity.
Youmightalsolookupthemanufacturerandmodelnumberofthepositionedinquestion.Their
websitesusuallyhavemoreinformationontheirproductsthanyoucanpossiblyabsorb.
Best,
Walt
WaltBoyes,FInstMC,CharteredMeasurementandControlTechnologist
LifeFellow,InternationalSocietyofAutomation
EditorinChief,ControlandControlGlobal.com
wboyes@putman.net
Bysandeep on16January,201311:47pm
Sir,
canyoupleaseexplainmethedifferencebetweenpositionerandactuator....
Andwhentogoforanactuatorandwhentogofarapositioner?..
Whetheractuatorcancompletelyreplacepositioner?
Byrishi on19October,20133:05am
ValveBodywithplugisinstalledintheprocessline.Thatplugisoperatedup/downorin
angularpositionbyactuator.Actuatormaybediaphragmtypeorcylindertype.
Theactuatormovesfrom0100%positioninaccordingtominimumandmaximumpressure
supply.Thispressureissuppliedbypositioner.
IfweseetheflowpaththenDCStoIPconvertortopositionertoActuatortovalve.Incase
thevalvemalfunctionsduetopositionerandyoudonothavesparepositionerthenyoucan
alsoconnecttheoutputofIPconvertortotheactuatoroftheactuatorspringrangeis315
PSI.OnemorepointiwanttodiscusshereisthatifthecalibrationofIPisoutthenitsbetter
tochangetheIPratherthancalibrateit.
ByV1on15February,20132:05am
>ApositionerwithoutI/PconverterisknownasHART?Pleasegivemesomeideahowit
works.
ItMaybecalledassmartpositioner...
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Bysemsemon14August,20081:13am
Thepositionerisdesignedforcontrollingcontrolvalvesbyproducinganalogpneumaticsignalto
controlthepercentageofopeningorclosingoperationforvalve.
Example:
Inputstopositioner
Airsupply(feedingofpositioner)
Controlpneumaticsignal:itcomesfromI/Pequipment
Output:pneumaticsignal
Numericalexample:
Airsupply:35psi
Controlsignal:315psi
Output:630psi
ByCPPguyon16March,200912:43am
Mr.Anonymous
ScientistNewtonwasdebarredfromschoolasheusedtoremainmentallyabsent,Butduringyour
studiesyoulearntlotfromhisinventionsandyouknowwhyfreshersarenotappointedasGeneral
manager?Becausetheydonothavepracticalexperience.Itnotpossibletoknoweverythingin
theworld,andnoManisPERFECTintheworld.Andthisisrighttimeforhimhecanasksilly
question(sillyforMe&You).ButthisisthewayheismarchingtowardsPERFECTION.
Thankyou
CPPguy
ByYKLon8September,200911:49pm
DearCPPguy,
verymuchagreedwithyou.Itisneverashametoaskifyoudon'tknow.
ByUltima on10September,20094:24am
well,thatwasaharshcomment,ifyouwanttolearnmorespecificfortheuseofanvalve
positioner,checkfisherwebsiteatemerson.comfindbrandfisher.becauseasfarasiknow
theyhaveangoodexplanationfortheuseofthatthing.andasanadditionanpneumatic
positionerwhonotuseI/Pconverter(ornotinstalled)arehaveotheruseasamplifiersignal
(pneumatic)fortheactuator.sincesomeoftheactuatorareactuallydoesn'tuseexact315psi
formovingthediaphragmorpiston(forsomevalveactuatortheyeveninstalledanpressure
accumulatortank),becausetheneedsforhigherpressuretoactuateditandsomehas
characterizablefunctionsuchasforvalvethathavequickopening,equalprecentageorlinier.
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welliforgotthedefinitonofthecharacteristicabovebutthepointisthepositionerarehave
moreusablefunctionthanjustanfeedbackcontrolforthecontrolvalve.sameasthepneumatic
the"modern"positioneralsohavesomeotherfunctionwhoalreadymentionbyothers
gentlemenatthistopics.
plustheHARTandFieldbusesProtocolswhomadeiteasier(andlooksverycoolifyouare
configuringancontrolvalvefromremotedesktoporlaptop)tomonitor,configuring,
troubleshooting,evencalibratesthepositionofthevalve.tomakeitsure,youstillneedtogo
onsitesordoitbenchtest.sogofinddetailsaboutthepositioner,anddon'tshameifyou
"unfamiliar"withthatthing(tobehonest,untilnowIcannotevenunderstandwhatis
"Facebook")
ByRonaldDeepak
on24October,200912:38pm
DearAll,
IworkintheFishercontrolvalvesdivisionofEmerson.
Iwouldliketoexplainfewthingsabouttheworkingofapositioner.
ThepositionerisadevicemountedonacontrolvalvethatreceivescontrolsignalfromaDCS
oranyhostsystem.Thesignalcanbea420mA/HART/Fieldbus,etc.Thepositionerreceives
thesignalandunderstandsthedesired(target)positionofthevalve.
E.g.,Apositionerworkingona420mAsignalrangereceivesa12mAmeansthevalvehasto
bepositionedat50%open.Withoutapositioner,thevalvemightnotbepositionedat50%
duetoseveralfactorssuchasfluidforces,friction,etc.Thepositionersendspressuretothe
actuatorinordertopositionthevalveat50%.Thepositionerisalsophysicallyconnected
withthevalvestem,soitrecievesfeedbackaboutthecurrentpositionofthevalve.Basedon
thefeedback,thepositioneradjuststheoutputtotheactuatorifrequired.Inshort,theultimate
functionofthepositioneristoensurethattheDesiredopeningofthevalveisachievedin
responsetothecontrolsignalreceivedfromthehostsystem.
AdvancedpositionerswhichareoftenreferredtoasSMARTpositionershaveseveralother
usefulfeaturesthatimprovetheperformance.Theyhavetheabiliitytotransmitdiagnostic
dataaboutthevalvebacktothehostsystem.
Positionersalsohavetuningfeaturesthatallowuserstosetgainvaluesbasedontherequired
performancecriterialikestrokingtime,overshoot,etc.
PositionersusedinspecialapplicationslikeCompressorantisurgecontrol,Emergencyshut
downvalves,etc.haveaddedfeatureswhichareessentialtomeettheperformance
specificationsinthoseapplications.
Ihopethishelps.Ifyouwouldhaveanyspecificquestionsregardingacontrolvalve
Positioner,pleasecontactme.
RonaldDeepak
jronalddeepak[at]gmail.com
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6/9/2015
ByNIKon26October,20096:44am
IsitaproportionalcontrolleroraPIcontroller.SomewhereIreadthatitisaPonly
controller.ThiswouldmeanthattherewillbeanoffsetassociatedwithitlikeeveryotherP
onlycontroller.SohowtheOffsetisbeingremoved.
Anotherquestion:
Forspringdiaphragmactuators:whetherthepositioneroutputisproportionalto0.2to1kg
signalwhenthespringrangeisdifferentforexample14kgoutput.Forexample0.2signal
correspondsto1and1kgsignalcorrespondsto4kgoutput.
ByGeorgeBuckbeeon26October,20099:37am
MostpositionersarePonlycontrollers,usuallywithafairlylargegain.Thisprovidesenough
kicktotheactuatortoovercomevalverestriction.
Keepinmindthatthepositioneriseffectivelytheinner/slaveloopinacascadecontrol
scheme.Theintegralactioncomesfromtheoutercontrolloop,whichwillkeepadjustingthe
desiredvalvepositiontoovercomeanyoffsetwiththeprocessvariable(i.e.temperature).
Forgoodcontrolwithacascadesystem,youmustensurethattheinnerandouter(slaveand
master)controlloopshavedifferentresponsetimes.Thishas2majorimplications:
1.Donotapplypositionersonveryfastcontrolloops(i.e.mostflowloops).
2.Ensurethattheouterlooptuningisnotoverlyaggressive,asthiscouldresultininteraction
(cycling)ofthecontrols.
IwillbehostingtwowebinarsonCascadecontroltomorrow,Oct.27.Thesearefree60
minutewebinars,andallarewelcometoregisterat:
http://www.expertune.com/r2.asp?f=AList&l=webinarcascade.asp
George
ByRonaldDeepak
Yes,youareright.Thepositionerinfacthasanintegralgaincomponent.However,thereis
andeadzonewithinwhichthevalvetravelisallowedtovary.Thedeadzonecantypicallybe
1%.Onlyifthetravelvariesoutsideofthiszone,theerrorisintegrated.Thisisdoneinorder
toavoidtraveloscillation.
Toansweryoursecondquestion,thespanofairpressureforwhichthevalvemovesfrom0%
to100%openisreferredtoas"BENCHSET".Thebenchsetdefinestherangeofpressureto
movetheactuatorspringbetween0and100%valvetravel(withoutconsideringvalve
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forces).Thebenchsetisarrivedat,whenactuatorsizingisperformed.Whenthepositioneris
mountedontothevalve/actuatorassemblyandcalibrated,thepositionerunderstandstheend
pointsofvalvetravelbymovingthevalvefrom0to100%andmeasuringthepressuressent
totheactuatorcorrespondingtotheendpoints(0&100).
Inshort,thepressureoutputfromthepositionertoaSpring&Diaphragmactuatorisnot
fixed,butratherdependsonthespringbeingused.
Asimpleequationrelatingthepressurespanandspringrateisasfollows:
(PuPl)*A=K*T
where(PuPl)pressurespan(psig)
PuUpperbenchsetpressure(psig)
PlLowerbenchsetpressure(psig)
AActuatordiaphragmarea(in2)
KActuatorspringrate(lb/in)
TTravel(in)
Hopethishelps.
Pleaseletmeknowifyouhavequestions.
RonaldDeepak
ByMikon26October,20093:35pm
Hello,
now,Iamconfused.OnereplystatedthatpositionerisaPcontrolleronly,whileotherreply
statedthatithasonlyintegralgain.
Whichoneistrue?
Ithinkthatitmusthaveanintegralcomponenttoensurethatsetpointfromouterloopis
achieved.
Bynikon27October,200912:15am
Deepak
sinceyouarefromtheCVindustrysomemorequestionsforU.
WhatistheeffectofDPacrossthevalveonCV/Actuatorsizing.
WhetherDPandDPshutoffofthevalvearedifferent.InmyopinionDPacrossthevalveis
atthenormalflowandDPshutoffobviouslyatvalvefullyclosedposition.Butwhythen
these02thingsarenormallyincludedinCVdatasheets.Ialsohopethatthese2valuesare
usedonlyforactuatorsizingandnotthevalvepart.
Regards
9/19
6/9/2015
NIK
ByRonaldDeepak
WhatGeorgesaidearlieristrue.Thepositionerisinfactworkinginacascade(inner)loop
whiletheDCSiscontrollingtheprocessvariable(flow/pressure/level,etc.)FromwhatI
know,thepositionersinfacthaveintegralgains,sotheerrorinthemainprocessvariableis
notaccumulated.However,likeImentionedearlier,thereisanintegraldeadzoneforthe
valvetravel,sotheintegralactionisdisabledwhentravelvarieswithinthiszoneoutsidethe
setpoint.Sopractically,theintegralgainisalmostnonexistentinmostpositionersbecause
thedeadzoneissethighenoughsothatthevalvepositiondoesnotoscillate.
However,Idonotquiteagreetothecommentabouttheusageofpositionersinfastloops.At
present,positionersareusedinallkindsofloopsandIdon'tseeanyproblemwithusinga
correctlysizedvalveandoptimallytunedpositionerinanykindofflowloop.
Toansweryourquestionaboutpressuredrop:
TheflowingpressuredropisusedforCvcalculation.Youmightbeawarethat
Cv(approx.)=Q*Sqrt(SG/dP)
Where,Qisthevol.flowrate,SGisfluidspecificgravityanddPisthepressuredrop.Incase
ofgases/vapors,theequationisdifferentdPisreplacedby(dP/P1).
Theshutoffpressuredropisusedinactuatorsizing.Likeyousaid,theshutoffpressuredrop
occurswhenthevalveisfullyclosed.Sothisvalueisusedincalculatingthetotalactuator
thrustrequiredtokeepthevalveclosed,becausetheactuatorhastokeepthevalveclosed
opposingthispressuredrop,inadditiontoprovidingthedesiredleakageclassand
overcomingfriction.
Inshort,flowingpressuredropisusedforCvcalculationandsubsequentlyforsizingthe
valve.Shutoffpressuredropisusedforsizingtheactuator.
Hopethishelps.Ifyoustillhavequestions,pleaseletmeknow.
RonaldDeepak
ByNIKon28October,20092:51am
Thisisexcellentreply.
Regards
NIK
10/19
6/9/2015
Bymanion16September,201310:10am
>Yes,youareright.itishelpfulforme.thanks.
Ihaveotherquestion?
1.howtochangeDVCpositioneronlinewithDoubleactingControlvalve(alsovalvehas
handwheel)?isitpossibletochangepositionerorisolatethecontrolvalveandthen
change(offline)?
2.pleaseexplainhowtodocalibration.
ByAlunJameson17March,20145:31pm
Hi,
wasthereananswertothisquestion?IhaverecentlyinstalledaFisher6205/6215setona
plantcriticalsystemwherewedonothavetheluxuryofstrokingthevalvepostinstallation.
Weunderstoodthatitwaspossibletocopytheentireconfigoverfromonepositionertothe
nextparticularlyasthefeedbackdeviceisaremotehalleffectandthereforethepositioner
hasnophysicalconnectiontotheprocess.
>1.howtochangeDVCpositioneronlinewithDoubleactingControlvalve(also
>valvehashandwheel)?isitpossibletochangepositionerorisolatethecontrol
>valveandthenchange(offline)?
>2.pleaseexplainhowtodocalibration.
ByHaroldWade on27October,200910:38am
Ronald,
Yourreplyisexcellent,butIsuggestoneslightchangeinwording.Ithinkyoushouldnotuse
theterms"valveopening"and"stemposition"interchangeably.Asignalfromthecontroller
of50%isarequestfora50%stemposition,not50%valveopening,sincethevalveopening
mustalsotakeintoaccountthevalvecharacteristics,whichisnotthesubjectofthisthread,
butmaybeagoodsubjectforanotherthread.
HaroldWade
hlwade[at]aol.com
ByM.Hopkinson30October,20098:16am
TheproblemIhaveisinunderstandingwhatIcall,theresolutionoftheunit.Howmuchofa
changeincurrentdoesittaketocreateactualmovementforthepositioner,andwhatisthe
specificationthatdefinesthis?Everyvendordefinestheirproductbywhatappearstobe
whateverspecputsitinthebestlight.Yes,theydo,forthemostpart,usecommon
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terminology,andmaybeI'mjuststupid,butnoneofthespec'sclearlyidentifiesthe'number
ofstepchanges'availableforagiven420mAsignal.
mshopkins[at]dow.com
ByAngonyKirshon18June,20121:33pm
Ronald,
Thanksforyourexplanation.Asafollowup,pleaseconfirmifacontrolvalveequippedwith
aHARTpositionerDVC6200functionproperlywithaHARTtoFieldbusConverter
connectedtoaDeltaVDCSwhereaDVC6200fisnotreadilyavalaible?
ByAkash on4September,20138:41am
HiRonald,
Thankyousomuchfortheexplanation.Thisreallyhelpsmeupinunderstandingpositioner
better.Idokeepintouchforfurtherqueries.
Thanks,
Akash
ByDilip on26October,20092:07pm
Thereisnothingwronginaskingabasicquestionifyouthat,youdonotknowmuchaboutit.Since
youareinproject,youmustunderstandbasicquestion,otherwiseitmaycostyourcompanyalotin
laterstage.Sokeepaskingquestions,don'tkeepmum.
ByNothSeaTiffyon2November,20116:24pm
QuitecorrectDilip...aswesayintheNorthSea,
"Thereisnosuchthingasadaftquestion...thereisonlythedaftie(fool),whodoesn'taskit!"
Byarunachalam on27October,20098:25am
hihemanth,
iamalsoafreshernowjoinedinapowerplant.yourquestionshelpmetounderstandthebasics.
thanksforeveryonewhoappreciatesfresherslikemeandhemanth.
andMr.Ananymous,guideusifyoulike.otherwisedon'tdemotivateus..
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ByRonaldDeepak
on28October,200910:22am
Harold,
Thanksalotforpointingitout.Iusedtheterm%openingbecauseitisfrequentlyusedthesedays
byvalvevendorsandenduserstoreferto%travel.Infact,themoreappropriatetermis%travel
(thisisthetermthatisusedinISAspecificationsheetsforcontrolvalve).
However,Ididn'trefertotheactualflowingareaortheeffectiveopeninginsidethevalvethatis
availableforflow.Onlythetotaleffectiveflowareadependsonthevalvecharacteristic.
RonaldDeepak
jronalddeepak@gmail.com
ByRonaldDeepak
on7November,200911:25am
Mr.Hopkins,
Iwouldliketoansweryourquestions.Firstofall,whenitcomestotheissueofresolution,itis
moreappropriatetotalkabouttheresolutionoftheentirecontrolvalveassembly(valve,actuator
&positioner)thanthatofjustthepositioneralone.Withtheadventofsmartdigitalpositioners,
thevalve&actuatorassemblyistheonethatlimitstheresolutionoftheentireunit,notthe
positioner.
Likeyoumentioned,theactualmovementofavalveinresponsetoacontrolsignalwillnotbea
smoothramp,butin'steps'.Thequestioniswhatistheminimumstepchangeavalveexhibits
(thisdefinestheresolution)?Frictioninsidethevalvetendsto'hold'thevalveormakethevalve
stem"stick".Stempacking,sealrings,ActuatorOringsalloftheseaccountforfrictionand
subsequentlycontributetodeadband.Whenthereisasignificantdifferenceinstatic&dynamic
frictionvalues,thevalvetendstoexhibit"stickslip"motionandthisaffectsresolution.Inthe
caseoflargesizevalves,thevalve&actuatorinternalcomponentslikevalveplug/stem,actuator
piston(inthecaseofpistonactuators)themselvesareveryheavyandthesheerforcesinvolvedin
movingthem,inadditiontothefrictioncomponentsalreadymentionedplayasignificantrolein
determiningtheresponseofthevalve.
Havingsaidallthis,today'spositionersaretunedtohandlesuchlargevalveconstructionsto
meettypicalresolutionrequirements.Yes,thereisnouniversalspecificationthatspecifiesan
acceptableresolutionforacontrolvalveassembly.ButseveralEndUsersandEngineering
contractorsspecifytheresolutionforvalveresponse.Someapplicationslikecompressoranti
surgecontrolrequirepreciseresponsetocontrolsignalsandaccordinglytheresolutionis
specified.Mostvalveassembliesofferedthesedayshavetheabilitytorespondtocontrolsignal
changesassmallas1%.
Whenhighlyprecisecontrolisrequired,forex.,inapplicationslikepulpflowcontroltothe
papermachineinthepulp&paperindustry,basisweightcontrolvalveswithElectricactuators
areused.Thesevalve/actuatorassemblieshaveveryhighresolutions(somewhereintherangeof
10,000stepsfora0100%controlsignalspani.e,aresolutionof0.01%).
However,theresolutionsofferedbystandardglobevalveswithpneumaticactuatorsaregood
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enoughtohandlemostotherapplicationsencounteredacrossprocessindustries.
Hopethishelps.
RonaldDeepak
Byredon27April,20109:26pm
Howdoonecalculatetheactualairconsumptionofthepositioner?
Iknowthattheamountofairusedingeneralforsizingisapprox0.6scfmto1scfm.
Buttheactualconsumptionvariesfordifferentmanufacturer.Whatdatadooneneedinorder
tocalculatetheactualairconsumptionofavalvepositioner?andhowtocalculateit.
Thanksinadvance
ByGJAon24October,20103:32pm
Yes,thereisabigdifferenceinairconsumptionbetweenmanufacturersbecausetherearea
numberofdesigns,mostofwhichIthinkgotinstalledinourpowerplant.We'vegot'emall.
TheSiemensandABBdigitalpositionersmovethecontrolvalveusingfastactingvalves,
similartofuelinjectors.Youcanhearthemrapidlyfiretheirvalveswhenthey'remaintaining
acontrolvalveinapositionifthecontrolsignalvariesorifthevalve'spneumaticactuatoris
leaking.
Theadvantageofthisdesignisthatairconsumptiongoestozeroinanairtightsystem,
unliketheoldnozzleandflappertypesthatusefarmoreair,particularlywhenthey're
applyingzeropressuretotheactuator.Itdoesn'tshutofftheairsupplytotheactuatorit
ventsitoff.
We'vegottenyearsofreliableserviceoutoftheABB'sinindoorapplicationsonsmallvalves
thataren'tsubjectedtovibrationorwaterhammer.TheSiemensPS2'sweren'tsofortunate
andwe'vehadtoreplacetheminharshapplications.Theydoofferanupgradeforharshduty,
butweI&Ctypestendtocullouttheweakinfavorofthereliable.
We'vegottengood,reliableperformanceoutofMasoneilanSVII'sonsingleactingactuators.
TheyusepneumaticrelayswhichusemoreairandarelessprecisethantheABB'sorSiemens
buttheymakealotofmountingbracketsforavarietyofcontrolvalves,andthatmeansalot
forthetechswhohavetoinstallandcalibratethem.
OneofourplantshadproblemswithdoubleactingSVIIsondrumlevelcontrolwhichwere
neverresolved.TheywerereplacedwithFlowserves'Logixpositionersthatareeasyto
configure,reliableandreasonablypriced.They'readefinitefavorite.
We'reimpressedwithallthegeewizfirmwareandsoftwareavailablethatgivesyou
advanceddiagnosticsandazillionconfigurableparametersbutforallofits50plus
parametersonboardthePSII's,wepreferthesimplicityoftheLogixandwehaven'tgottime
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6/9/2015
toplaywithallthebellsandwhistles.Ifapositioneriscausingprocessproblemsandcan't
quicklybecorrected,itgetsreplaced,notstudied.
PMV'sareprimitvebytodaysstandardsbuttheonlythingthat'sgoneoutin10yearsof
reliableserviceonseveralofthemistheirpositionfeedbacktotheDCSwhichisn'tcritical.
FisherDVC5000'sareoneofthefewthatareacceptedinnukesbecausethey'rerocksolid,
too,butoverpricedandaredesignedtofittheirvalves.WhenappliedtononFisherproducts,
theytendtorequirealotofleverstotranslatestemtraveltorotarymotionwhichcreatesalot
oflinkageslop.We'vereplacedthosewithLogix.
Unfortunately,we'vegotothermanufacturer'spositionerssuchasSTIonCCIDRAGvalves
(veryrobustbutdifficulttocallibrate)toSiemensnozzel/flapperwhatever.Theyallhave
theirprosandcons,butdousmaintenanceguysafavor:standardizewhenpossibleanddon't
letthegeewizfactorswayyouunlessyouhavelotsofplaytime.
BySam on26October,201010:50am
Hithere,
Thanksfortheeffort,veryinterestingread.
WhenyoumentionedSiemensPS2Ialloffasuddenfeltsick.Biggestcraptheworldhave
everseen.
MademethinkabouthowsomepeoplewentoninanotherthreadaboutSiemensandtheir
veryadvancedtechnologicalknowledgeandbetterthanmostPLC's(S7).Mightbetruebut
thentheyshouldsticktoPLC'sandstayawayfromtryingtodesignSMARTpositioners.
IncontrasttheFisherDVC6000seriesfromFisheristhebestIeverworkedon.Wemounted
themonValtechvalvesaswellwithoutanyproblems.
ByStaffanBuhron6November,20105:48am
Hithere,
IsuggestyoulookatQuickSteppervalvepositioneratwww.processcomponent.se.
IthasZEROconsumptionandmanualmechanicaloverride!Freediagnosticsoftwareetc.
Bestregards
StaffanBuhr
sb@processcomponent.se
ByRob on12November,201011:07pm
IhaveusedthePS1andPS2positioners.Irecentlywentthroughaprocessofstandardizing
15/19
6/9/2015
basicservicepositionersacrossasite.Had6differenttypesofpositionersduetovarious
sectionsofplantbeingpackagesupplied.SiemenswonasePS2wascomparabletothe
DVC5000oncostandeaseofsetupdoesn'trequirea375.Diagnosticsisstillnewtousbut
welookingtostartutilizingexistingdiagnosticpackagestoaidindeterminingmaintenance
strategyforvalves.
ByNasron25December,20105:06pm
GreatcontributionDEEPAK.Godblessyou.......
ByChrison9April,20123:02pm
Higuys,
I'mdoingaresearchprojecton4positioners.,twosmartwhicharetheFisherDVC6200and
theMasoneilanSVIIIAP.I'malsodoingFisher3610JandMAsoneilan4700Pforpneumatic
positioners.Iwaswonderingifanyonecouldgivemeanyinsightonwhatapplications
pneumaticpositionerswouldbebestfor.Alsoiwouldliketoknowoutoffourpositioners
whatonewouldyourecommendfortightshutoffapplicationsandthrottling.
Thanks,
chris
ByDickCaroon9April,20126:51pm
BothsmartvalvepositionersareavailablewitheitherHARTorFoundationFieldbusinput
andarethemostadaptablechoices.Purepneumaticpositionerswith315psiairpressure
inputcanbeusedwithDCSorelectroniccontrollersifaItoP(I/P)converterisusedto
converttheelectronic420masignalfromthecontrollertotherequisite315psiairpressure.
TheonlyreasonIcanthinkofwhereIwoulduseapneumaticpositioneriswherethereisan
explosivegasmixturepresentatalltimessuchasinchemicalplantsmakingetheror
acetylene.Otherwise,smartpositionersarealwayspreferredunlesstheirhighercostisa
problem.Thepurposeofallcontrolvalvesistothrottletheprocessflowoveranarrowrange
offlowrates.
Tightshutoffcannotbeexpectedwithanycontrolvalvethevalveitselfdeterminesiftight
shutoffcanbeachievednotthepositionerandglobevalvesusedforcontrolarenotdesigned
fortightshutoff.Ifyouneedtightshutoff,youshouldusesolenoidoperatedquarterturnball
valvesthatareunsuitableforcontrolpurposes.
DickCaro
ByFieldbusquery on10April,201211:20am
16/19
6/9/2015
HiChris,
Tightshutoffforconventionalpneumaticpositionerswith420mAisafunctionalitydriven
bythecontrolsystemitisconnected.Foreg:iftightshutoffneedstobedonethecontrol
systemwilldeliver3.6mAorsightlylessandforfullopenthecurrentwillbe21mA
ifyoutakethecaseoffoundationfieldbuspositionersthisfunctionalityresidesinthe
positionerandistunedbyappropriatelymakingchangesintheparametersofTB01
(tranducer01block)
NotsureIthinksitcanbedonebychanging
finalcutoffvalue_HI=110
finalcutoffvalue_LO=10
OR
Stopvalue_HI=110
Stopvalue_LO=10
Comingbacktothrottle/Stroke
youcanthrottleconventionalpositioner,ifyoufeedmAfrom4to
20(4mA=0%,8=25%,12=50%....)
Foundationfieldbuspositionersitsdonebydigitalcommunicationandneedsahostto
executethecommands
ByChrison10April,20129:39pm
Heyguys,
Thankyoufortheinsightforwhatapplicationswouldbestbesuitedforpneumatic
positionersasitishelpingmewithmyreport.Withthisreportiambasicallytryingtodecide
andconvincemycollegefacultywhichpositionerisforbestforuseoutinthefieldandwhy.
ThisisbetweentheDVC6200byFisherandtheMasoneilanSVIIIAp.Ifthereisany
opinionorfeaturesthatwillhelpdefendmyargumentthattheMasoneilanSVIIIAPisbetter
itwouldhelpgreatly.
AlsowhenlookingatthecalibrationoftheDVC6200inoticedtherearetwomodesof
calibrationwhicharetravelcalibrationwhichconsistsofmanualandautoandsensor
calibration.TheDVC6200usesaHARTcommunicatorforthesemodesofcalibration.The
SVIIIAPbyMasoneilanusespushbuttonsandaLCDdisplayforcalibrationandalsocan
incorporatetheHARTcommunicatorliketheDVC6200.Doesthisfeaturegivethepositioner
anadvantageovertheDVC6200
AlsoifthereareanyotheradvantageorcomparisonsbetweentheSVIIIAPandthe
DVC6200thatishouldbeawareofitwouldhelpoutverymuch.
Thanks.
Chris
17/19
6/9/2015
BySafaron2March,20149:57pm
Oneproblemi'mfacingcalibratingwithDVC6200iswhenthevalveissettofullyclosed,
thereareoftensmallpressureintheactuatorleftthatican'tgetfullyshutoffofthevalve.the
certainpressurethatleftinactuatorat0%willlettheCVdidn'tachievebetterseatleakage
result.didanyoneencounterthisproblem?
ByBCon11May,201211:59am
Hellotoall!
Firstoff:therehasbeensomegreatdiscussionwithsomeveryqualifiedindividualsinthisthread.
IcurrentlyworkinthenuclearfieldwiththetitleFieldServiceEngineeronAOVs.Themain
adviceIcanoffertonewbiesistotinkerwithalltypesofpositionersonabench.Haveaqualified
individualnearbytoassistyouifyouneeditandtoalsocheckyourwork.
Inmylineofwork,wehaverealizedthatona315positioner,settingthevaluesto3.2and14.8Psi
endsupbeingtheoptimalsetpointsforanAOV.
3.2psimeaningthediaphragmiscompletelybledoffatthispointandvalvetravelhasceased.
14.8meansthethediaphragmissaturatingwithairandthevalvetravelhasreacheditspeakand
cannotmoveanymore.
Also,ifyouareworkingwithFisherpositioners(3582)andtheyarestraightoutofthebox,more
thanlikelyabeamalignmentwillneedtobeperformedbeforecalibratingtheZEROandSPAN
setpoints.Also,Adjustyourspanbeforeadjustingthezero.A3582positionerisdifferentthanmost
instrumentationandadjustingthespanbeforethezerowilleliminateexcesstimespentcalibrating
thepositioner.
AstoChris'squestion:thenuclearfieldinthestatesusesmostlyFisherandABBbrandpositioners.
DVCsaremakingtherewaybutonlyonthesecondaryside.
IpresumetheFisher3582overjustaboutanyotherpositioner,exceptwhenI'mdealingwithdual
actingactuators(Pistonactuators).ThenanABBBaileysisagreatinstrumentfortheconfiguration
athand.
ByBenon17May,201210:40am
Hellotoall!
Igotveryintrestedinthisforumwhenisawtherichrepliesonpositioners.Plsmyquestionisthis
"AREPOSITIONERSPRIMARYSENSINGELEMENTS"?iamtryingtogrouptheminmy
"technicalobjecttype."iamacmmsengineerandwedobuilddatabaseforassetmaintenance.
18/19
6/9/2015
Byjmnyoung on5October,20132:59pm
QuestioninreplytoBCon11May,201211:59am??
Wouldyouhappentohaveanywrittenprocedurefor#1below?Thismanualishardtounderstand
for#1below.
1.ThespecificprocedureIamlookingissettingtherange+(fwd/rev),zero,span,flapper/nozzle.
2.DRINGprocedurewouldbehelpfultoo,butthemanualseemstobedecentonDRING
alignment.
IamprettysureIhavebeeninstructedwrongfor#1above.
jmnyoung
Byvaseem on15February,201312:27am
ThePositionerisaforcebalanceinstrumentthatprovidesacontrolvalvepositionproportionaltoa
pneumaticinputsignal.Thebalanceofopposingforcesinthepositioneroccursatthesumming
beam.Oneforceappliedtothesummingbeamisdevelopedfromtheinputsignalpressureonthe
diaphragm.Theotherforceisfromthefeedbackspringandisproportionaltothepositionofthe
feedbacklever.Whentheinputpressureisincreasedtothediaphragmoftheinputmodule,the
diaphragmstrokesdown,increasingtheeffectiveforcefromtheinputmoduleandcompressingthe
feedbackspring.Thesummingbeammovesthespooldowninthespoolbody,openingoutputport
Btosupplyairtotheleftsideoftheactuator.Atthesametime,outputportAofthespoolvalve
opens,allowingtherightsideoftheactuatortoventtoatmosphere.
Thepistonintheactuatormovestotheright,rotatingthefeedbackshaftandcamcounterclockwise.
Thisrotationcausesthefeedbacklevertorotateclockwise,increasingthecompressiononthe
feedbackspring.Theserotationscontinueuntiltheadditionalforcefromthespringbalanceswith
theinputmoduleforceonthesummingbeam.Whentheforcesareequal,thesummingbeam
returnstoitssteadystateorneutralpositionandtheactuatorisheldatanewposition.Ucanhave
lotofinformationfromthebelowURL
http://www.documentation.emersonprocess.com/groups/public/documents/bulletins/d200437x012.pdf
YouruseofthissiteissubjecttothetermsandconditionssetforthunderLegalNoticesandthe
PrivacyPolicy.Pleasereadthosetermsandconditionscarefully.Subjecttotherightsexpressly
reservedtoothersunderLegalNotices,thecontentofthissiteandthecompilationthereofis1999
2015NerdsinControl,LLC.Allrightsreserved.
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