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Are we a bunch of sour, grim killjoys? - Page 3 - Dhamma Wheel

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Re: Are we a bunch of sour, grim killjoys?

       
 

by bodom » Mon May 03, 2010 2:46 pm

       
   

Dan74 wrote:

         
 

WOW! Thanks for that, Bodom!!!

       

bodom Posts: 4860 Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009

I will give it a good read tomorrow. Now it's time for bed.

       

6:18 pm Location: San Antonio, Texas

_/|\_

         
 

You are quite welcome Dan. This topic has been one that has long interested me.

   
 

The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah

 

Re: Are we a bunch of sour, grim killjoys?

       
 

by David N. Snyder » Mon May 03, 2010 3:11 pm

       

Are we a bunch of sour, grim killjoys? - Page 3 - Dhamma Wheel

Kim O'Hara wrote: I'm not sure if David was thinking of 'the masses' as the
Kim O'Hara wrote:
I'm not sure if David was thinking of 'the masses' as the majority of Westerners who come to
Buddhism or as the majority of people in traditionally Buddhist countries.
David N. Snyder
Site Admin
Posts: 8811
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4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas,
Nevada
Contact:
Actually, both. I didn't mention it in my previous post, because I don't recall the exact source,
but there is a scholarly, historical book where the author (perhaps Gombrich?) suggests that
Buddhism may not have become this popular (as it is today) were it not for the Mahayana. This
is because the masses in Asia 1,000 to 2,000 years ago needed a more devotional aspect to
Buddhism and not one that is so analytical.
And today, in the West many are drawn to the Dalai Lama as you say and also the beautiful
mandalas, the statues, the yab-yum images, the poetry, the arts, the infusion of the arts is
more closely associated with Zen and Mahayana then it appears to be with Theravada. Also, for
some, there is an attraction to the para-military type training of Zen with the Dharma combat,
koans, the kyosaku (stick), etc.
And then in Theravada we have no drinking, no sex (at retreats), not much emphasis on the
arts, no singing or dancing (at retreats), and lots of renunciation. But of course there is the
happiness and joy that comes from non-attachment, but as I mentioned before, for those not
advanced in the Dhamma / Dharma, this can be hard to see.
Dham.ma
Dhamma Wiki encyclopedia
Dharma Wheel forum
Re: Are we a bunch of sour, grim killjoys? by christopher::: » Mon May 03,
Re: Are we a bunch of sour, grim killjoys?
by christopher::: » Mon May 03, 2010 3:56 pm
David N. Snyder wrote:
christopher:::
Posts: 1326
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009
12:56 am
And then in Theravada we have no drinking, no sex (at retreats), not much emphasis on the arts,
no singing or dancing (at retreats), and lots of renunciation. But of course there is the
happiness and joy that comes from non-attachment, but as I mentioned before, for those not
advanced in the Dhamma / Dharma, this can be hard to see.
Also less sex-with-student scandals and stories of alcoholism in regards to prominent teachers.
I dunno. The neighbor's grass is often greener, in our minds.
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and
clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving
kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

Are we a bunch of sour, grim killjoys? - Page 3 - Dhamma Wheel

Re: Are we a bunch of sour, grim killjoys? by Guy » Mon May 03,
Re: Are we a bunch of sour, grim killjoys? by Guy » Mon May 03,
Re: Are we a bunch of sour, grim killjoys?
by Guy » Mon May 03, 2010 4:47 pm
Sorry all for going off-topic but
bodom wrote:
Guy
Posts: 762
Joined: Fri May 22, 2009
4:05 am
Location: Perth, Western
Australia
Lets not forget there are Theravadins who are on the bodhisatta path practicing for
Buddhahood. The bodhisatta path is by no means restricted to Mahayana and is open to
Theravadins as one of three vehicles to enlightenment, as arahat, paccekabuddha and
sammasambuddha.
As
an aside, does anyone know of anybody who is consciously striving to become a Pacceka
Buddha?
Four types of letting go:
1) Giving; expecting nothing back in return
2) Throwing things away
3) Contentment; wanting to be here, not wanting to be anywhere else
4) "Teflon Mind"; having a mind which doesn't accumulate things
- Ajahn Brahm
Re: Are we a bunch of sour, grim killjoys? by Goofaholix » Mon May 03,
Re: Are we a bunch of sour, grim killjoys?
by Goofaholix » Mon May 03, 2010 8:18 pm
David N. Snyder wrote:
Goofaholix
Posts: 2255
Joined: Sun Nov 15,
2009 3:49 am
Location: New Zealand
Actually, both. I didn't mention it in my previous post, because I don't recall the exact source,
but there is a scholarly, historical book where the author (perhaps Gombrich?) suggests that
Buddhism may not have become this popular (as it is today) were it not for the Mahayana. This
is because the masses in Asia 1,000 to 2,000 years ago needed a more devotional aspect to
Buddhism and not one that is so analytical.
What might be of interest, I've read a little bit about the history of Burma, Thailand, and
Cambodia (though it was a while ago and I may be mixing things up).
In all three countries Mahayana Buddhism and/or Hinduism came first, the reason Theravada
Buddhism became the prevailing religion is that those who brought Theravada Buddhism from
Sri Lanka targeted the rulers and the country converted from the top down.
Not sure what conclusions to draw from that. Even today though you see elements of Mahayana
Buddhism, Hinduism, and Animism in the local practice.
"Right effort is effort with wisdom. Because where there is wisdom, there is interest. The desire to know something is
wisdom at work. Being mindful is not difficult. But it’s difficult to be continuously aware. For that you need right effort. But
it does not require a great deal of energy. It’s relaxed perseverance in reminding yourself to be aware. When you are
aware, wisdom unfolds naturally, and there is still more interest." - Sayadaw U Tejaniya
to be aware. When you are aware, wisdom unfolds naturally, and there is still more interest."

Are we a bunch of sour, grim killjoys? - Page 3 - Dhamma Wheel

Re: Are we a bunch of sour, grim killjoys? by Goofaholix » Mon May 03,
Re: Are we a bunch of sour, grim killjoys?
by Goofaholix » Mon May 03, 2010 8:20 pm
Guy wrote:
As
an aside, does anyone know of anybody who is consciously striving to become a Pacceka
Buddha?
Goofaholix
Posts: 2255
Joined: Sun Nov 15,
2009
3:49 am
Isn't this an oxymoron? By definition they wouldn't be discussing the Buddha's teaching as they
wouldn't have heard of it, or at least not be following it.
Location: New Zealand
"Right effort is effort with wisdom. Because where there is wisdom, there is interest. The desire to know something is
wisdom at work. Being mindful is not difficult. But it’s difficult to be continuously aware. For that you need right effort. But
it does not require a great deal of energy. It’s relaxed perseverance in reminding yourself to be aware. When you are
aware, wisdom unfolds naturally, and there is still more interest." - Sayadaw U Tejaniya
Re: Are we a bunch of sour, grim killjoys?
by Nibbida » Mon May 03, 2010 9:27 pm
christopher::: wrote:
I
think sometimes "serious practitioners" forget to prioritize the brahmaviharas. When that
happens, life is less joyful and loving, suffering is magnified, imo. Do Theravadins fall into this
trap more then others? I haven't noticed that, at all, and as chiangmaigreg mentioned- if you
know Thai folks, they're definitely not a bunch of sour, grim killjoys
Nibbida
Posts: 466
Joined: Sat May 02, 2009
3:44 am
with the exception of some of the street protesters
Yes, I believe this is true. How one develops oneself can vary greatly. Imagine someone whose
practice consisted of a great deal of metta compared to one who did not practice it at all.
Would there be a difference? I think so.
Re: Are we a bunch of sour, grim killjoys?
by Dan74 » Tue May 04, 2010 5:50 am
christopher::: wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote:
Dan74
Posts: 2825
Joined: Sun Mar 01,
And then in Theravada we have no drinking, no sex (at retreats), not much emphasis on the
arts, no singing or dancing (at retreats), and lots of renunciation. But of course there is
the happiness and joy that comes from non-attachment, but as I mentioned before, for
those not advanced in the Dhamma / Dharma, this can be hard to see.
2009
11:12 pm
Also less sex-with-student scandals and stories of alcoholism in regards to prominent teachers.
I
dunno. The neighbor's grass is often greener, in our minds.

Are we a bunch of sour, grim killjoys? - Page 3 - Dhamma Wheel

Yeah, definitely true that about grass Have you read Ven Dhammica's Broken Buddha? Every tradition
Yeah, definitely true that about grass
Have you read Ven Dhammica's Broken Buddha? Every tradition has its share of issues. It is not
that Mahayana under-emphasized ethics, but perhaps that Westerners sick of Christian
preaching sometimes go for certain aspects of Mahayana while neglecting others.
Both traditions are rich and balanced in terms of the Noble Eightfold Path, IMO. I think one
should be wary of judging a tradition by exposure to a selection of books and online
practitioners
PS David, "sex at retreats", "drinking"? Which retreats are those? The retreats I have been to,
have generally been silent, with no reading, no music, no computers, no mobile phones, work
and lots of meditation. Also there haven't been any beatings, nor dharma combats which I only
know of from one particular Korean teacher. Zen is a lot simpler than people like to imagine, I
think. Listening to someone like Ajahn Sumedho or my teacher, I don't find very much
difference. Both are about here and now.
_/|\_
_/|\_
Re: Are we a bunch of sour, grim killjoys?
by christopher::: » Wed May 05, 2010 2:22 am
Dan74 wrote:
christopher:::
Zen is a lot simpler than people like to imagine, I think. Listening to someone like Ajahn
Sumedho or my teacher, I don't find very much difference. Both are about here and now.
Posts: 1326
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009
12:56 am
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and
clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving
kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
Re: Are we a bunch of sour, grim killjoys?
by ground » Wed May 05, 2010 2:28 am
Dan74 wrote:
ground
Posts: 2592
Joined: Wed Nov 25,
2009 6:01 am
Zen is a lot simpler than people like to imagine, I think. Listening to someone like Ajahn
Sumedho or my teacher, I don't find very much difference. Both are about here and now.
_/|\_
I guess "here an now" comes under the same category as does "buddha nature"

Are we a bunch of sour, grim killjoys? - Page 3 - Dhamma Wheel

Re: Are we a bunch of sour, grim killjoys? by christopher::: » Wed May 05,
Re: Are we a bunch of sour, grim killjoys? by christopher::: » Wed May 05,
Re: Are we a bunch of sour, grim killjoys?
by christopher::: » Wed May 05, 2010 2:35 am
TMingyur wrote:
I guess "here an now" comes under the same category as does "buddha nature"
christopher:::
Posts: 1326
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009
12:56 am
Only when we put life into categories, in our heads.
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and
clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving
kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
Re: Are we a bunch of sour, grim killjoys? by ground » Wed May 05,
Re: Are we a bunch of sour, grim killjoys?
by ground » Wed May 05, 2010 2:38 am
christopher::: wrote:
ground
Posts: 2592
Joined: Wed Nov 25,
2009 6:01 am
TMingyur wrote:
I guess "here an now" comes under the same category as does "buddha nature"
Only when we put life into categories, in our heads.
I do not understand "put life in". What do you mean?
Who do you refer to with "we"?
What I meant was: both constructs may be helpful for some people. As to my experience/view:
I find both constructs self-imposed limitations.
If you seek for "here and now" or "buddha nature" you cannot find these. Period.
Kind regards
Re: Are we a bunch of sour, grim killjoys? by Guy » Wed May 05,
Re: Are we a bunch of sour, grim killjoys?
by Guy » Wed May 05, 2010 3:13 am
A thought just occured to me: Sour Grim Killjoys might be a good name for a death metal band.

Are we a bunch of sour, grim killjoys? - Page 3 - Dhamma Wheel

Four types of letting go: Guy Posts: 762 Joined: Fri May 22, 2009 4:05 am
Four types of letting go:
Guy
Posts: 762
Joined: Fri May 22, 2009
4:05 am
Location: Perth, Western
Australia
1) Giving; expecting nothing back in return
2) Throwing things away
3) Contentment; wanting to be here, not wanting to be anywhere else
4) "Teflon Mind"; having a mind which doesn't accumulate things
- Ajahn Brahm

Posts: 1326 Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:56 am

Re: Are we a bunch of sour, grim killjoys?

by christopher::: » Wed May 05, 2010 3:48 am

TMingyur wrote:

christopher::: wrote:

TMingyur wrote:

I guess "here an now" comes under the same category as does "buddha nature"

Only when we put life into categories, in our heads.

I do not understand "put life in". What do you mean?

Who do you refer to with "we"?

What I meant was: both constructs may be helpful for some people. As to my experience/view: I find both constructs self-imposed limitations.

I meant that "buddha nature" and "here and now" only "come under the same category" when we (any person) think about them as being something real, impose conceptual limitations on our lives, categorize experiences, cling to mental constructs.

Similar to what you just said, in bold, imo.

Guy wrote:

A thought just occured to me: Sour Grim Killjoys might be a good name for a death metal band.

"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)." ~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

Are we a bunch of sour, grim killjoys? - Page 3 - Dhamma Wheel

Re: Are we a bunch of sour, grim killjoys? by Dan74 » Wed May 05,
Re: Are we a bunch of sour, grim killjoys?
by Dan74 » Wed May 05, 2010 4:48 am
TMingyur wrote:
christopher::: wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
I guess "here an now" comes under the same category as does "buddha nature"
Dan74
Posts: 2825
Joined: Sun Mar 01,
2009 11:12 pm
Only when we put life into categories, in our heads.
I do not understand "put life in". What do you mean?
Who do you refer to with "we"?
What I meant was: both constructs may be helpful for some people. As to my experience/view: I
find both constructs self-imposed limitations.
If
you seek for "here and now" or "buddha nature" you cannot find these. Period.
Kind regards
Quite right! It is absurd to seek for either.
_/|\_
_/|\_
Re: Are we a bunch of sour, grim killjoys?
by bodom » Wed May 05, 2010 1:26 pm
Guy wrote:
A
thought just occured to me: Sour Grim Killjoys might be a good name for a death metal band.
bodom
Posts: 4860
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009
6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio,
Texas
lol I would listen to them.
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love
and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try

Are we a bunch of sour, grim killjoys? - Page 3 - Dhamma Wheel

to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do
to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not
become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing.
Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi
and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over
here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
Re: Are we a bunch of sour, grim killjoys?
by Annapurna » Wed May 05, 2010 2:07 pm
TMingyur wrote:
If you seek for "here and now" or "buddha nature" you cannot find these. Period.
Annapurna
Posts: 2639
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009
8:04 pm
Location: Germany
Contact:
Hm
I
have trouble with this.
Perhaps explain this to me?
I can find "here and now" when I pinch myself. I feel it here and now, and not yesterday or
tomorrow.
??
Metta,
anna
http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/
Re: Are we a bunch of sour, grim killjoys?
PeterB
Posts: 3909
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009
12:35 pm
by PeterB » Wed May 05, 2010 2:24 pm
As soon as you register the pinch Anna it is already in the past, even if the sensory nerves
continue to fire for a while
Re: Are we a bunch of sour, grim killjoys?
by tiltbillings » Wed May 05, 2010 2:39 pm
PeterB wrote:
As soon as you register the pinch Anna it is already in the past, even if the sensory nerves
continue to fire for a while
tiltbillings
Posts: 21228
Joined: Wed Dec 31,
2008 9:25 am
Depends upon what you mean by being aware of pinch.
.
++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN
I, 38.

Are we a bunch of sour, grim killjoys? - Page 3 - Dhamma Wheel

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Re: Are we a bunch of sour, grim killjoys?

           

by PeterB » Wed May 05, 2010 3:24 pm

             

Posts: 3909 Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Depends what you mean by it depends what you mean Tilt

           

I was thinking of the fact that it takes a measurable amount of time for the physical act of putting pressure on the sensory nerves to register in the brain and for that signal to be relayed back to the source of the pressure, by which time " now " is "then"

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