Dharma Wheel - View Topic - Potential 9

1/9/2558
DharmaWheelViewtopicPotential
ABuddhistdiscussionforumonMahayanaandVajrayanaBuddhism
Search
Search
Advancedsearch
Potential
Forumrules
Postareply
Searchthistopic
Search
251postsPage9of131...6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13
Re: Potential (#p29343)
bygroundTueMar08,20115:58am
tamdrin wrote:
No one is liberated from dukkha that is total BS.
Maybe ... maybe not.

Kind regards
Top
bytamdrinTueMar08,20116:00am
TMingyur wrote:
tamdrin wrote:

Kind regards
Ok the Buddha is, but anyone that has to incarnate in physical form is going to suffer.
Top
tamdrin wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=3426&start=160
1/10
1/9/2558
tamdrin wrote:

Kind regards
Ok the Buddha is, but anyone that has to incarnate in physical form is going to
suffer.
That is the reason why dukkha is eliminated. A synonym for "dukkha" is "afflictive
obscurations".
Kind regards
Top
The Mahayana differentiates between born through being driven by karma (i.e. dukkha) and
born through aspiration.
So physical form does not seem to be the decisive criterion according to Mahayana teachings.
Kind regards
Top
TMingyur wrote:
The Mahayana differentiates between born through being driven by karma (i.e.
dukkha) and born through aspiration.
So physical form does not seem to be the decisive criterion according to
Mahayana teachings.
Kind regards
Practically speaking, I have heard of Lama's who were not considered to have been karmic
born beings (ie. they came back for others mainly) who went through 20 years in Chinese
Prison camp...
2/10
1/9/2558
Top
Kind regards[/quote]
Ok the Buddha is, but anyone that has to incarnate in physical form is going to suffer.[/quote]
obscurations".
Not really, Cognitive obscurations are suffering too. In fact this type of misperception is the
cause of all suffering and afflictive obscurations in the first place
Top
See here is the point where one again delves into speculation. Clining to views being the
consequence. So better to focus on the 8fold path and eliminate dukkha, i.e. afflictive
obscurations.
Que sera sera ...
Kind regards
Top
tamdrin wrote:
Kind regards
Ok the Buddha is, but anyone that has to incarnate in physical form is going to suffer.[/quote]
obscurations".
Not really, Cognitive obscurations are suffering too. [/quote]
This is exactly what I have written. But skip the "too". It is just that.
3/10
1/9/2558
Kind regards
Top
Elimination is just that. Call it "cognitive" or "afflictive" ... "Afflictive" is more appropriate
since it does not entail speculation and is based on direct experience.
Kind regards
Top
TMingyur wrote:
Elimination is just that. Call it "cognitive" or "afflictive" ... "Afflictive" is more
appropriate since it does not entail speculation and is based on direct
experience.
Kind regards
Nonsense, the obscuration of dualistic thinking is not speculative at all. Why do you seem to
be so fixated on this idea that these ideas are out of our direct experience. Plenty of people
have had the experience of "buddha nature" plenty of people have the experience of
cognitive obscuration. I dont feel like debating this any further. CHao
Top
tamdrin wrote:
I dont feel like debating this any further. CHao
That's fine. it was a pleasure. thank you.

Kind regards
Top
bySherabTueMar08,20116:48am
TMingyur wrote:
Well there also may be the difference that I do not consider buddhahood to be
the mandatory goal of the path.
4/10
1/9/2558
It does not matter, the map provided by the Buddha covers destinations/goals that fall short
of full enlightenment as well.
The point is, if anyone wants a complete map, he/she should not ignore any part of the
Buddha's teachings.
Top
byPemaRigdzinTueMar08,20117:34am
TMingyur wrote:
There is always the possibility to take the word of others as replacement for
one's direct experience.
That is what theists do as to their theist gurus and what some buddhists do as to
their own gurus.
Actually it boils down to the decisive question:
Is speculative thought a skillful means?
A great part of tibetan buddhism obviously says: Yes and even indulges in
speculative views.
The Buddha said: No, rely on direct expirience and I teach only what is required
for liberation.
Tibetans tend to cling to views, indulge in all sorts of philosophy and
speculation.
To be a Buddhist ALWAYS involves clinging to speculative beliefs until personal realization

occurs this is true of the Dharma of the Pali Canon all the way to the tantras of Secret
Mantra.
One begins in life with beliefs based only the information gained through the senses, and then
later also information passed onto oneself by others. Then one can reason based on that
conglomeration of information. Generally speaking, one starts with a notion of having a "real"
self that has "real" experiences and a sense that the characteristics of one's self are inherent
to it and lasting. Then, one encounters the Buddha Dharma which says 'no, there is no truly
existing self; there are dependently originated aggregates that comprise self and phenomena
and you merely impute characteristics onto them which you cling to, so the self and other
phenomena are illusory; the fact that you cling to these illusory dharmas is the reason why
you suffer, but liberation from this selfcreated trap is possible.' Upon encountering such
claims, can we know with certainty that they're true? No. We can only speculate that it's
possible and well worth investigating further. And even though we may feel great certainty of
our own ultimate view based on sharp reasoning, analysis, and experience, anything short of
direct realization is like a picture of a lamp, so it still involves speculation. This is no less true
of the nonaffirming emptiness of the Pali Canon or the Prajnaparamita than it is of the
Tathagatagarbha teachings.
5/10
1/9/2558
Therefore, all of us Buddhists start out believing in the plausibility of truths we have not yet
been able to verify, and we all continue to have faith in a nature and fruition we've not yet
been able to realize entirely for ourselves. So, it's hypocritical to point the finger at others
for "clinging to speculative views" when he have also done so and necessarily continue to do
so.
As one begins to study, contemplate, and meditate on the enlightened ones' claims and one
begins to verify them through personal experience, one gains greater and greater faith in the
wisdom of the enlightened ones and one continues. At a certain point when one has tested so
very many of the enlightened ones' claims and instructions and everything one's tested has
proven unfailing and accurate, one develops a reasonbased trust in the validity of the few
more explicit claims about the ground and fruition made by the Buddha and one's lama that
one still has yet to realize for oneself. With this reasoned faith, one becomes a more diligent
practitioner, ever more intent on realizing the true nature of self and phenomena for oneself
because of the claims the lama and the three jewels have made about the capacity to benefit
others through such realization.
Top
Sherab wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
Well there also may be the difference that I do not consider
buddhahood to be the mandatory goal of the path.
It does not matter, the map provided by the Buddha covers destinations/goals
that fall short of full enlightenment as well.
The point is, if anyone wants a complete map, he/she should not ignore any
part of the Buddha's teachings.
Well yes. The 8fold path has to be 8fold, not 7 or 4fold.

Kind regards
Top
bySherabDorjeTueMar08,20118:46am
TMingyur wrote:
Actually I am advocating not to care about what one cannot know.
Just because you have not realised it does not mean that everybody else has not realised it.
You do not "know" enlightenment but you trust that the Buddha reached enlightenment and
that the noble eightfold path leads to enlightenment. So stop talking nonsense.
6/10
1/9/2558
But the opposite seems to manifest: People cling to what they cannot know.
People cling to anything and everything that can bolster their sense of identification as "Me"
or "I", this may also include clinging to the teachings of the Pali Canon.
And this is really the point: If there is just a view, which is mere thought,
either you leave it or you cling to it. Because there is no other way to deal with
mere thought. In contrast, thought that is related to direct experience does not
need that clinging. Why? Because there is certainty without thought. Why?
Because there is knowing based on direct experience.
Very true. So do you agree that enlightened practitioners, like Saraha, Milarepa, etc..., that
realised or experienced the "true" nature of mind and then tried to point it out through
metaphor and simile were not talking about views but utilising views to express their
experience? Or maybe you believe that they actually did not experience anything and were
just loud mouthed morons talking shit?
Top
bySherabTueMar08,201110:16am
TMingyur wrote:
Sherab wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
Well there also may be the difference that I do not
consider buddhahood to be the mandatory goal of the
path.
It does not matter, the map provided by the Buddha covers

destinations/goals that fall short of full enlightenment as well.
The point is, if anyone wants a complete map, he/she should not ignore
any part of the Buddha's teachings.
Well yes. The 8fold path has to be 8fold, not 7 or 4fold.

Kind regards
This is weird. You seemed to have trouble understanding what I am saying.

Oh well, nevermind.
Top
byAndersTueMar08,201111:45am
7/10
1/9/2558
tamdrin wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
tamdrin wrote:
I hate to say it Tmingyur but your failure to even
acknowledge sang gye gyis gyu as even a basis of
designation for how yogis describe their experience shows
that you are stuck at a lower level of understanding
perhaps?
Huh? What is "sang gye gyis gyu"?

Kind regards
it is the tibetan word for what has come to be translated as "Buddha Nature"..
Sang Gye is the word for Buddha. Sang means purified of the obscurations, and
gye implies it being increased, or blossoming with the good qualities. rGyud can
mean many things such as..
1) continuum, continuity, succession; 2) string; 3) stream; 4) region, area,
location; 5) [family] lineage/ succession/ descent; 6) * [text]; 7) character
trait, nature; 8) via through; 9) bank, shore, coast, edge, side; 10) range
so all this came to mean "Buddha Nature" in english.
"buddha nature" in English most probably gained currency from the translation of the Chinese
"f xng" (). Which had currency in Chinese mahayana and translates quite literally as
'buddha nature'.
Top
byconebeckhamTueMar08,20115:27pm
Actually I am advocating not to care about what one cannot know. But the
opposite seems to manifest: People cling to what they cannot know. And this is
really the point: If there is just a view, which is mere thought, either you leave
it or you cling to it. Because there is no other way to deal with mere thought.
In contrast, thought that is related to direct experience does not need that
clinging. Why? Because there is certainty without thought. Why? Because there
is knowing based on direct experience.
TMingyur
Let's talk about Sunyata for a moment. It is my understanding that, for most of us,
8/10
1/9/2558
"emptiness" is a "mere thought" and not an object of direct experience. Now, you will grant, I
think, that direct experience of "emptiness" is possibleeven though there is no "emptiness"
per se to be experienced. And, in fact, it would appear that a great deal of discussion,
thought, debate, and discourse about this "experience." The question is, is all of this
proliferation just speculative and beside the point? Or, perhaps, is all this just "expedient
means?"
Top
bygroundWedMar09,20115:42am
conebeckham wrote:
Now, you will grant, I think, that direct experience of "emptiness" is possible
even though there is no "emptiness" per se to be experienced.
No. But I will grant that the experience of nonattachment is possible. ("nonattachment"
here subsumes the 8th and 9th limbs of dependent origination)
Kind regards
Top
byheartThuMar10,20116:47am
TMingyur wrote:
conebeckham wrote:
Now, you will grant, I think, that direct experience of "emptiness" is
possibleeven though there is no "emptiness" per se to be experienced.
No. But I will grant that the experience of nonattachment is possible. ("non
attachment" here subsumes the 8th and 9th limbs of dependent origination)
Kind regards
Renunciation or nonattachment is actually very close to the experience labeled emptiness

from a practitioner's point of view. However renunciation is still mainly personal while
emptiness covers everything, this is actually the difference between mahayana and
theravada according to my understanding.
/magnus
Top
PreviousNextDisplaypostsfromprevious: Allposts
Ascending
Go
Sortby Posttime
Postareply
251postsPage9of131...6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13
ReturntoTibetanBuddhism
9/10
1/9/2558
Jumpto: TibetanBuddhism
Go
Who is online
Usersbrowsingthisforum:heart,UrgyenDorjeand19guests
2015DavidN.Snyder,Ph.D.,VipassanaFoundationinassociationwithTheDhammaEncyclopedia
DharmaWheelisassociatedwithDhammaWheel.com,DhammaWiki.com,andTheDhamma.com..
Chatroom
>
10/10

Dharma Wheel - View Topic - Potential 9

Încărcat de

Informații document

Titlu original

Drepturi de autor

Formate disponibile

Partajați acest document

Partajați sau inserați document

Opțiuni de partajare

Vi se pare util acest document?

Este necorespunzător acest conținut?

Drepturi de autor:

Formate disponibile

Dharma Wheel - View Topic - Potential 9

Încărcat de

Drepturi de autor:

Formate disponibile

1/9/2558

Re: Potential (#p29343)

Maybe ... maybe not.

Re: Potential (#p29344)

Maybe ... maybe not.

Re: Potential (#p29345)

Maybe ... maybe not.

Re: Potential (#p29346)

Re: Potential (#p29347)

Re: Potential (#p29348)

Re: Potential (#p29349)

Re: Potential (#p29351)

Re: Potential (#p29353)

Re: Potential (#p29354)

Re: Potential (#p29355)

That's fine. it was a pleasure. thank you.

Re: Potential (#p29359)

Re: Potential (#p29360)

To be a Buddhist ALWAYS involves clinging to speculative beliefs until personal realization

Re: Potential (#p29361)

Well yes. The 8fold path has to be 8fold, not 7 or 4fold.

Re: Potential (#p29363)

Re: Potential (#p29372)

It does not matter, the map provided by the Buddha covers

Well yes. The 8fold path has to be 8fold, not 7 or 4fold.

This is weird. You seemed to have trouble understanding what I am saying.

Re: Potential (#p29378)

Huh? What is "sang gye gyis gyu"?

Re: Potential (#p29415)

Re: Potential (#p29510)

Re: Potential (#p29666)

Renunciation or nonattachment is actually very close to the experience labeled emptiness

S-ar putea să vă placă și