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kellytshort
Active Contributor

Join Date: Jan 2010

Posts: 14

Fault Current Gone Wrong

01/07/2010 4:54 PM

I am working on a design with (5) 2500kW generators and with the Reactances I g
slg 150kAIC. Is there anyway to limit this fault current. I know a neutral grounding
but what about a 3p fault, is there anything like that out there? My client doesn't w
limiting fuses. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
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#13 "Re: Fault Current Gone Wrong" by Anonymous Poster on 01/09/2010 6:19 AM (score 3)
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#3 "Re: Fault Current gone wrong" by rasam.syamsudin on 01/07/2010 6:47 PM (score 1)

#18 "Re: Fault Current Gone Wrong" by mokamel on 01/12/2010 12:40 PM (score 1)

wareagle
Guru

Re: Fault Current gone wrong

01/07/2010 5:00 PM

I assume that the 140 KA is with the generators in parallel. Do they have to be run
at the main switch?

Join Date: Jun 2008

Location: Alabama
Posts: 1647
Good Answers: 64

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kellytshort
Active Contributor

Re: Fault Current gone wrong

Join Date: Jan 2010

01/07/2010 5:03 PM

Posts: 14

Yes they are in parrallel and hit a common bus at 140KA. And yes they want them
gear is now 200kaic and huge!
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rasam.syamsudin
Commentator

Re: Fault Current gone wrong

01/07/2010 6:47 PM

Dear Kellyshort,

To reduce S.C current we have to install reactor in series with generator line. Y
circuit study in sizing reactor.
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Jakarta 12130
Indonesia
Posts: 76
Good Answers: 1

But, I am really confuse with your case, why the short-circuit current is to high
Are these a special generator with very low subtransient/transient reactance?..
contribution from each 2500 kW generator is 28 kA.

I have experience with steam turbine generator 13.8 kV, 12.5 MW, 0.8 PF with
around 13.5% and transient reactance 26%, the S.C contribution current from
kA Symm. For 5 MW EDG we have subtransient reactance 22% and transient r

Please check your generator subtransient and transient reactance to ensure bo

correct?
Regards,
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hkian
Commentator

Re: Fault Current gone wrong

Join Date: Jan 2010

01/07/2010 10:32 PM

Posts: 73

yes agree with rasam.. the fault is so high for a 2500MW generator..

Good Answers: 1

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Anonymous
Poster
Re: Fault Current gone wrong
01/07/2010 11:13 PM

Instead of opting for reactor you can go for generator transformer and parallel at t
transformer then fault current can be brought to minimum.
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joseph sithole
Active Contributor

Re: Fault Current gone wrong

Join Date: Oct 2009

Posts: 24

01/08/2010 12:19 AM

Is the 5 number of generators to be connected in parallel (synchronised) to a comm

Are the generators of the same make and specs
Is duty prime or standby.
Thanks
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shanbhag
Commentator

Re: Fault Current gone wrong

01/08/2010 1:01 AM

Dear Mr. Kellyshort,

I request you to give the detailed specification and application of the system. You h
current, load application( whether using for infrastructure/ Industry(type)) what is
stator winding(individual generator)/ impedance of rotor, what is the excitation volt

Join Date: Dec 2009

Location:
Bangalore,India
Posts: 80
Good Answers: 1

kellytshort

you see if really want a correct answer you have to be very very specific and detail
give the electrical schematic for clear clarification.
Regards

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Active Contributor

Re: Fault Current gone wrong

Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 14

01/08/2010 10:10 AM

My apologies for the lack of information. I wish I could post some pics of my skm a
reactances are .1194 x''d pu, .1804 x'd pu and my zero sequence is .0081. Each ge
Isc 3p and 29486A Isc slg. The voltage for these units are 480V and 1800rpm @ 6
rating of 3125. All my equipment is within really close proximity. These are backup
center. My Short Circuit Ratio: 0.48 , Stator Resistance = 0.0012 Ohms, Field Resis
The generators are Diesel, Standby connected series star.
Excitation voltage: 12.98 Volts@ no load 52.73 Volts @ full load
Excitation current 1.19 Amps@ no load 3.99 Amps @ full load
Thanks for the advice after my post I realized I had a serious lack of information.
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pwr2thepeople
Guru

Re: Fault Current gone wrong

01/08/2010 6:03 PM

Kelly,
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Ohio USA
Posts: 577
Good Answers: 59

The kicker here is that you are generating at 480V and connecting the generator o
distribution system. You don't have a transformer to choke the fault current, and y
next to the load, so your impedance is limited to the stator. Your generator has a fu
over 3kA, so the windings are large diameter. Low voltage generation also means f
less overall stator impedance. There's just no where to soak up that fault current.

I have a couple data centers on my system and dealt with similar issues during the
pretty much limited to 2 options:

Add series reactors as rasam suggests (I normally put them in the neutral s
phase before the star connection), or
Design the distribution system for the calculated fault current (as it appears

The reliability requirements of data centers, particularly backup data centers, elimi
The owner's going to have to bite the bullet and pull out the checkbook one way or
Good luck.
Tony
__________________
Experience: The knowledge you gain just AFTER you needed it.
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rasam.syamsudin
Commentator

Re: Fault Current gone wrong

01/09/2010 1:14 AM

Dear Kellytshort,

I agree with Mr. Pwr2thepeople comments, and now I give you very simple calc
relation between reactor sizing and allowable voltage drop.
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Jakarta 12130
Indonesia
Posts: 76
Good Answers: 1

This simple calculation is to estimate the reactor impedance size and voltage d
fault level.

For example we want to get 20 kA S.C fault level, with the following base: I ba
480 V.
X"d = 0.1194 pu, X'd = 0.1804.

Isc 3 phase current = 3125/0.1194 = 26.17 kA (your calculation result is 26.81

more precise than my calculation).
Y is reactor impedance that I am looking for.
20 kA = 3125/(0.1194 + Y)
Y = (3125 2388)/20000 = 0.03685 pu.
V drop in pu = 0.0365 x (480/480) = 0.0365 pu
V drop = 0.0365 x 480 V = 17.69 Volt.
Is the voltage drop accepted in your system?

You mentioned the SKM, in my opinion SKM is the software that can be used fo
add reactor in your calculation. How reactor impedance value you are looking f
allowable voltage drop in your system.
Regards,
__________________
RSM Elect Specialist
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mokamel

Re: Fault Current gone wrong

01/09/2010 5:04 AM

rasam.syamsudin
Commentator

Re: Fault Current Gone Wrong

01/09/2010 6:05 AM

Dear Mokamel,
Sorry I cannot see and read your reply. Can you tell me why?
Regards
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Jakarta 12130
Indonesia
Posts: 76

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Good Answers: 1

Anonymous
Poster
Re: Fault Current Gone Wrong
01/09/2010 6:19 AM

Dear Rasam,
the technical data for generator as Kellytshort mention:
X"d = 0.1194 pu, P=2.5MW, V=480 volt, power factor=0.8

the rated full load current for each generator=2500/(1.732 x 0.48 x 0.8 )=3759 Am
the contribution from each generator in case of short circuit on
the main bus = 3759/0.1194 = 31.48 kA (as worst condition).
total short circuit due to 5 generators = 31.48 x 5 = 157.4 kA.
to reduce this accumulative short circuit current, i suggest sectionalizing the main

follow:
1- section#1 connected with 2 generators.
2- section#2 (the middle) connected with 1 generator.
3- section#3 connected with 2 generators.

then connect a series reactor between section#1 and section#2, and connect an an
between section#2 and section#3.

in this case the short circuit current on section#1 = 2 x 31.48 = 62.96kA, and sect
section#1.
to get the same value of short circuit current on section#2,
the value of series reactor is 3.5times X"d = 3.5 x 0.1194 = 0.4179 pu,
Zbase = 0.073728 ohm. L (series reactor)= 0.082 mH

(Hint:0.25(1/X"d)=(1/0.5X"d+Xseries reactor), to get the same SC value on sectio

- No voltage drop problems on sections, excitation system will compensate termina

voltage drop problem still present study to improve power factor.
- 2 series rectors used only ( No 5 series reactor)
- the series reactors are air-core type which,
*No saturation under short circuit condition.
*Low losses.
*Long life time.
*maintenance free.
Regards,
Mohammed K.
Dar AL-Handasah international consultancy group.
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rasam.syamsudin

Commentator

Re: Fault Current Gone Wrong

01/09/2010 11:51 AM

Dear Guest,

I appreciate for your correction for my simple calculation even both data comin
Please do not hesitate to correct me.
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Jakarta 12130
Indonesia
Posts: 76
Good Answers: 1

1. "The rated full load current for each generator=2500/(1.732 x 0.48 x 0.8 )=
In my simple calculation the generator rating is 3125A.
Each generator produces 26817A Isc 3p, simple calculation 26.17 kA and your
I realize simple calculation is not precise, others?
2. I draw the SLD as shown above. Is that correct SLD?

3. The short-circuit value in section 1, is 2 x 31.48 kA. I am not with you in thi
contribution current from other generators are eliminated, except if the tie rect
and section 2 opened. See SLD above.

Bus sizing shall consider the contribution short-circuit from other short-circuit s
load if there is any motor higher than 50 hp or several 25 HP motors. I think, in
existed.

4. No voltage drop problems on sections, excitation system will compensate te

voltage drop problem still present study to improve power factor.

I do not know how much current to be reduced to meet Mr Kellytshort requirem

In selecting reactor sizing a voltage drop is limitation as one criteria. If the volt
any impact to the system we can select reactor easily.

If it is handling by excitation yes I agree, but also it is has limitation, the gener

inform how high voltage can be increased. If the voltage increase, the Per Unit
and it is proportionally with increasing short-circuit current.

If G1 & G2 off, it will be supplied from other buses, the worst case is taken from
opinion we have also to consider a voltage drop.
Best regards,
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RSM Elect Specialist
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Anonymous
Poster
Re: Fault Current Gone Wrong
01/10/2010 4:29 AM

Dear Rasam,

Thanks for your passing over my answer and thanks for your carefully revision.
Kindly note the username mokamel or guest are the same person.

1- I consider the value 3125 Amps. which, indicated in Kellytshort mail regard
data for generator is the setting value-as a generator loading factor. but in case
generator will act without regarding to thermal protection systems so, I expect
full load Amps based on data avaliable. for more precise calculation i should to
effect but studying still under worst case.
2- Yes, you read thoughts in my mind! Good.

3- Good for this note, but i consider when we select short circuit rating of bus a
short circuit which is 63kA we select the next standardizied value which is 70kA
correct, and for clarifications the total equivalent subtransient reactances seen
is 0.0597 pu and 0.05348 pu with respecting to your note, the first value lead
value lead to 70.3kA. as you now reverse feding effect of motor during SC can
respect to the value comming from generators, also you can set reverse power
to avoid this action.

4- I think this problem of voltage drop present when a reactor is connected in s

load, in my proposal a reactor connected between loading sections and in this c
performed to get optimum loading and optimum sharing between sections in th
system constraints which give a reasonable terminal voltage. the percentage o
as the percentage of terminal voltage increasing.

In case of G1&G2 off Yes, we should consider voltage drop in this case, but wh
5 generator to fed the loads, no way when two generators are off the all loads

study to select a vital load on section#1 to fed from section#3 this can be ocuu
between the incoming circuit breaker to section#1 and outgoing circuit breaker
Regards,
Mohammed K.
Dar AL-HandasahCairo,Egypt International Consultancy Group
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kellytshort
Active Contributor

Re: Fault Current Gone Wrong

Join Date: Jan 2010

01/11/2010 12:26 PM

Posts: 14

Can't get my comments to show up and my last one was a Monday comment for su
got the .073728
Thanks again you guys are great!
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kellytshort
Active Contributor

Re: Fault Current Gone Wrong

Join Date: Jan 2010

01/11/2010 10:55 AM

Posts: 14

Wow thank you so much!

A few questions? Why is the value of the series reactor 3.5x's X''d
How does one convert to find Zbase at .073728 ohm and then to get .082mH ?
I completely understand why we have to not worry about voltage drop because of
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mokamel
Participant

Re: Fault Current Gone Wrong

Join Date: Jan 2010

01/12/2010 12:40 PM

Posts: 3

Dear Kellytshort,

Greetings,

when you need to get the short circuit on generator terminal bus, only divide the th
current by X''d (in perunit value).Isc=Ifull load generator current/X''d .
Derivation of this equation as below:
Isc=Vph/X''d = kVL/1.732X''d (kA) where, VL line voltage in volt, Vph phase voltage in
reactance in .
Zbase = (kVL)2/MVA, Ifull load generator current(kA)= MVA/1.732kVL

X''d() = X''d(pu)xZbase ,Isc = kVL/(1.732X''d(pu)xZbase) = MVA x kVL/(1.732X''d(pu)xkV

hence Isc=1.732kVLx Ifull load generator current x kVL/(1.732X''d(pu) x kVL2)
Isc = I

full load generator current

/X''d(pu) (kA)

in our case study

P= 2.5MW, Powerfactor = 0.8, MVA(apparent power)= P(MW)/Powerfactor
S(MVA)=2.5/0.8 = 3.125
Zbase= (0.48)2/3.125 = 0.073728 .
Xseries reactor() = 3.5x0.1194x0.073728 = 0.030811()
0.030811= 2f x L where, f frequency(Hz), L inductance(Henry)
L=0.030811/(2x3.14x60)= 81.73 H.
If you anlayze the hint in my reply#13 you will get Xseries reactor = 3.5 X''d.
Regards,
Mohammed K.
Dar AL-HanadasahCairo,Egypt International Consultancy Group
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ramvinod
Guru

Re: Fault Current Gone Wrong

01/13/2010 2:28 PM

I have come across similar problem while designing the DG sets for Software Build
nos 2000 kVA,433 Volts and fault current was working out to be 104 kA.

What I have done is Designed to operate only sets 1 & 2 in parallel as group 1 and
parallel as group.Set no 3 will be stand by for group 1 or group2.I have made the c
only two sets in group and group will operate in parallel and feed to the load.Either
group1 will operate.Similarly in group 2 it will be 4 &5 or 3&4 or 3&5 will operate in
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: chennai,India
Posts: 543
Good Answers: 15

In this method short circuit current will get drastically reduced to 42 kA and the de
Busduct,switchgear,switchboards etc can be designed for 50 kA only.
Economically there will be good saving on capital cost.
This is only suggestion.
Comments are welcome.
__________________
Ramesh,Freelance Electrical/automation Consultant
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kellytshort
Active Contributor

Re: Fault Current Gone Wrong

Join Date: Jan 2010

01/13/2010 5:00 PM

Posts: 14

I couldn't agree more that is the answer, the only problem is I am the only who thi
the good fight on this one because I have some 215kA on my single line to ground
use a high impedance system because it sounds so so scary when it is actually safe
only +-.0084 ohms to get my Isc 3p = Isc SLG because how can it be more danger
currents are the same?
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rasam.syamsudin
Commentator

Re: Fault Current Gone Wrong

01/14/2010 11:14 PM

Dear Kellytshort,

Your client refused using high impedance system for reducing ground fault curr
have you talked with them on low resistance grounding? If possible you can sh
scary on HRG or LRG (low resistance grounding).
Join Date: Dec 2009

It is not a suggestion, but for information only. The following are my considerat

resistance grounding:

1. Most of Short circuit fault are initiated by ground fault. The possibility of gro
due to level voltage on the system are the same.

2. The ground fault current is limited to 400 A or 1000 A. Those values are still
rating.

Location: Jakarta 12130

Indonesia
Posts: 76
Good Answers: 1

3. CT box, neutral cable and ZCT might be bigger if we use resistance/impedan

fault is equal to ground fault current.

I am as a viewer appreciated to all of you that already share the best informati
subject, especially for Mr. Mokamel.
With best regards,
__________________
RSM Elect Specialist
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kellytshort
Active Contributor

Re: Fault Current Gone Wrong

Join Date: Jan 2010

01/15/2010 9:57 AM

Posts: 14

Yes I also pitched LRG as well and pretty much there thought process which in
correct they want the lowest impedance to ground possible. Some consultant t
are sticking to it no matter what. But get this I was able to convince them to a
neutral conductor longer and coil it up inside the generator and brace it like the
now all I have to do is calculate how many times I need to wrap the coil and w
You are probably thinking well that is an impedance grounded system, but I gu
perception. Any thoughts on coiling up (9) sets of 500kcmil conductors?!? I pitc
could run a #1 around 100ft to get .0084 ohms which would limit my Isc SLG.
my PE yet and it isn't my stamp the one who is stamping it refuses.
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Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

#13 "Re: Fault Current Gone Wrong" by Anonymous Poster on 01/09/2010 6:19 AM (score 3)
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Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate

 #3 "Re: Fault Current gone wrong" by rasam.syamsudin on 01/07/2010 6:47 PM (score 1)

#18 "Re: Fault Current Gone Wrong" by mokamel on 01/12/2010 12:40 PM (score 1)
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Users who posted comments:

Anonymous Poster (3); hkian (1); joseph
sithole (1); kellytshort (6); mokamel (2); pwr2thepeople (1); ramvinod (1);rasam.syamsudin (5); shanbh

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