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Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64347)

byKevinSolwaySatNov05,201112:49pm
gregkavarnos wrote:
Kevs' claims to omniscience and omnipotence . . .
Please provide a quote where I claimed to be omniscient and omnipotent.

Since when does outright lying play a part in Buddhist debate? Did I miss that teaching?
if Kev says to me that he knows reality and I don't, well...

leave much room for polite debate.
It doesn't
I said "If I know reality and you don't . . ."

It was a conditional statement.
For all I know you could be pretending to be a fool. I can't know for certain how much you
know.
Top

bySherabDorjeSatNov05,201112:57pm
Since when does outright lying play a part in Buddhist debate? Did I miss that
teaching?
I wouldn't know, I'm a nonBuddhist, remember?

Take it away Fifi!
http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=5678&start=300
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102804_fg15.jpg (41.63 KiB) Viewed 537 times

LasteditedbySherabDorje(./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=390)onSatNov
05,20111:54pm,edited1timeintotal.
Top

byzangskarSatNov05,20111:16pm
i mostly liked your two videos on rebirth, Kevin Solway, though my conclusion is not just
"don't believe any of these teachers, think for yourself", but also to remember to question
what you can actually infer from your own experience.
Also I wouldn't have argued with named teachers or traditions. It's not that I personally am
insulted, and you are not rude in the least in the videos I think. It just seems like it gets your
argument cloudy because the focus slips from the issues at hand to the large amalgam of
issues with Buddhist teachers and traditions that you so obviously (your expressions on your
face) disapprove of.
All in all, I think that the reason why people want to entertain beliefs about the reality or the
nonreality of rebirth might be more enlightening to understand for most of us, than would
knowledge of the actual reality of rebirth.
Best wishes
2/14
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Lars
Top

gregkavarnos wrote:
Take it away Fifi!
So I'm a person named "Dave" who claims to have a monopoly on truth, who claims to be
ominipotent and omniscient, who believes that all others are worthless, and to top it off, I'm
a female, dancing dog as well!
I'm sure this is textbook debating tactics, but I'm not sure what the textbook is.
Top

byedearlSatNov05,20112:06pm
zangskar wrote:
All in all, I think that the reason why people want to entertain beliefs about
the reality or the nonreality of rebirth might be more enlightening to
understand for most of us, than would knowledge of the actual reality of
rebirth.
I would like to know the reasons, and why people hold to beliefs with such fervor they will kill
others who do not hold the same beliefs.
Top

Did you miss the bit about me being a clown?
3/14
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clown&dog.JPG (27.46 KiB) Viewed 493 times

Lighten up Ken, any minute now the soap bubble may burst.
Top

zangskar wrote:
I think that the reason why people want to entertain beliefs about the reality
or the nonreality of rebirth might be more enlightening to understand for most
of us, than would knowledge of the actual reality of rebirth.
Point taken. There are other videos on the same Youtube channel
(http://www.youtube.com/MenoftheInfinite (http://www.youtube.com/MenoftheInfinite) ) that
deal with similar issues in the manner you suggest.
Religion takes quite a serving on Youtube, and rightly so, but Buddhism hasn't received much
attention for the reason that relatively few Westerners know much about it. It helps to
respond directly to certified teachers, with video evidence, otherwise it would be difficult to
get the audience to believe that many Buddhists really do believe these things.
I would say that the reason people want to believe in literal rebirth is that they want their
consciousness to continue relatively intact. They don't want to lose, or have dissipated, all
that they have accumulated. And, speaking for myself, the reason I don't believe in literal
rebirth is that it would involve divorcing myself from reality, and imagining that my
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consciousness was isolated from the rest of reality. I am far more comfortable with the truth
that my consciousness is inseparably linked with the rest of reality.
LasteditedbyKevinSolway(./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=1526)onSatNov
Top

byMalcolmSatNov05,20112:22pm
For the Buddha, rebirth, punarbhva, was a simple fact.

Either one accepts rebirth or one does not.
Arguing that the continual appropriation of new physical forms by an afflicted mental
continuum that spans countless eons is not the Buddha's teaching is rather unwise, since it
clearly is the Buddha's teaching.
It is unwise, therefore, to pretend that there is some other option, or that the Buddha meant
rebirth only figuratively.
Arguing with people who do not accept rebirth is equally unwise because they are addicted to
a trenchant physcalism and prefer a secular understanding of mind and life. However, such
people, may, in a limited way, derive some benefit from Budda's teaching of dependent
origination and so on even if that teaching will not lead them to ultimate liberation in this
lifetime because of their addiction to views.
The answer to the thread is that yes, for Buddha karma and rebirth are for real. And if one
wishes to have a full appreciation of the Buddha's teaching, it is important to understand this
fact.
N
Top

KevinSolway wrote:
Buddhists really do believe these things.
The Buddha didn't merely beleive these things, he knew these things to be so, and outlined
methods through which one may come to know directly oneself.
N
Top
Re: are karma and rebirth for real?
5/14
14/10/2558

Namdrol wrote:
For the Buddha, rebirth, punarbhva, was a simple fact.
Either one accepts rebirth or one does not.
Yes, but from the perspective of those who reject your interpretation of rebirth, you are the
one who rejects rebirth.
You must be aware that there are other interpretations of rebirth than your own, and that
your own interpretation may not be the correct one.
Arguing that the continual appropriation of new physical forms by an afflicted

mental continuum that spans countless eons is not the Buddha's teaching is
rather unwise, since it clearly is the Buddha's teaching.
Those who reject literal rebirth don't argue such a thing.

Just as a candle can be used to light many other candles, which burn simultaneously, in just
the same way mental activities kindle many other mental activities, in other physical forms,
which function simultaneously. For example, a teacher can have many students, and a parent
can have many children.
Cause and effect is a treelike web of interactions, rather than a narrow linear channel. One
cause can have countless, simultaneous effects. It's not the case than John Brown dies and is
reborn as a frog. That's not the way cause and effect works.
Top

bycatmoonSatNov05,20112:55pm
This thread has been unlocked early and a post editted.

Top

"Ananda, there are four kinds of persons existing in the world. What four?
(i) "Here some person kills living beings, takes what is not given, misconducts
himself in sexual desires, speaks falsehood, speaks maliciously, speaks harshly,
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gossips, is covetous, is illwilled, and has wrong view.[4] On the dissolution of

the body, after death, he reappears in the states of deprivation, in an unhappy
destination, in perdition, in hell.
(ii) "But here some person kills living beings... and has wrong view. On the
dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a happy destination, in
the heavenly world.
(iii) "Here some person abstains from killing living beings, from taking what is
not given, from misconduct in sexual desires, from false speech, from malicious
speech, from harsh speech, from gossip, he is not covetous, is not illwilled,
and has right view.[5] On the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears
in a happy destination, in the heavenly world.
(iv) "But here some person abstains from killing living beings... and has right
view. On the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in the states of
deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, in hell...
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nymo.html

(http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.136.nymo.html)
LasteditedbySherabDorje(./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=390)onSatNov
Top

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi in
Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then Subha the student, Todeyya's
son, went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings
with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one
side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One: "Master Gotama, what
is the reason, what is the cause, why baseness & excellence are seen among
human beings, among the human race? For shortlived & longlived people are
to be seen, sickly & healthy, ugly & beautiful, uninfluential & influential, poor
& rich, lowborn & highborn, stupid & discerning people are to be seen. So
what is the reason, what is the cause, why baseness & excellence are seen
among human beings, among the human race?"
"Students, beings are owners of kamma, heir to kamma, born of kamma, related
through kamma, and have kamma as their arbitrator. Kamma is what creates
distinctions among beings in terms of coarseness & refinement."
"I don't understand the detailed meaning of Master Gotama's statement spoken
in brief without explaining the detailed meaning. It would be good if Master
Gotama taught me the Dhamma so that I might understand the detailed meaning
of his brief statement."
"In that case, student, listen & pay close attention. I will speak."
"As you say, Master Gotama," Subha the student responded.
7/14
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The Blessed One said: "There is the case, student, where a woman or man is a
killer of living beings, brutal, bloodyhanded, given to killing & slaying, showing
no mercy to living beings. Through having adopted & carried out such actions,
on the breakup of the body, after death, he/she reappears in the plane of
deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, hell. If, on the breakup of
the body, after death instead of reappearing in the plane of deprivation, the
bad destination, the lower realms, hell he/she comes to the human state,
then he/she is shortlived wherever reborn. This is the way leading to a short
life: to be a killer of living beings, brutal, bloodyhanded, given to killing &
slaying, showing no mercy to living beings.
"But then there is the case where a woman or man, having abandoned the
killing of living beings, abstains from killing living beings, and dwells with the
rod laid down, the knife laid down, scrupulous, merciful, & sympathetic for the
welfare of all living beings. Through having adopted & carried out such actions,
on the breakup of the body, after death, he/she reappears in a good
destination, in the heavenly world. If, on the breakup of the body, after death
instead of reappearing in a good destination, in the heavenly world he/she
comes to the human state, then he/she is longlived wherever reborn. This is
the way leading to a long life: to have abandoned the killing of living beings, to
abstain from killing living beings, to dwell with one's rod laid down, one's knife
laid down, scrupulous, merciful, & sympathetic for the welfare of all living
beings...
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

(http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.135.than.html)
Top

KevinSolway wrote:
Just as a candle can be used to light many other candles, which burn
simultaneously, in just the same way mental activities kindle many other
mental activities, in other physical forms, which function simultaneously. For
example, a teacher can have many students, and a parent can have many
children.
Cause and effect is a treelike web of interactions, rather than a narrow linear
channel.
As to the first point, those who reject serial rebirth do not accept the teaching of the Buddha
on mental causailty.
8/14
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As to your second point, this is not what the Buddha meant by rebirth. What did he mean by
rebirth? You can read the mahniddana sutta.
As to your third point, you are conflating the teaching about general cause and effect with
dependent origination. Whether you decide to use the model of the Sarvastivadas (six causes
and four conditions) or the model of the Theravadins i.e. twenty four conditions (i.e. 6*4)
matters little. The teaching of serial rebirth or reincarnation was clearly taught by the
Buddha in hundreds of suttas.
You can of course choose to ignore the Buddha's teachings on this point, and try to "interpret"
rebirth but you cannot present this modified doctrine as the Buddha's own teaching.
N
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byAstusSatNov05,201111:33pm
KevinSolway wrote:
You must be aware that there are other interpretations of rebirth than your
own, and that your own interpretation may not be the correct one.
Truth can be established only on defining principles. A correct interpretation exists only as
far as one has the means to measure correctness. Truth on its own does not exist. Such is the
teaching of dependent origination and emptiness. Therefore one may try to understand
rebirth based on Buddhism or based on something else. This way the conclusions are already
determined by one's preconceptions. Only when one becomes open to the Dharma it is
possible to begin comprehending the teaching of the Buddha. How to be open and trusting
toward this teaching of liberation? There are several ways depending on one's mental habits
and ways of thinking. Debates like in this thread may serve such purpose, to assist in
generating faith. But again, before openness there are only repetitive thought patterns
coming from old mental conditioning. To eventually have insight into such a conditioned and
narrow state of mind and see how that mentality could not yield happiness so far is the very
first step on the path to enlightenment.
Top

byKevinSolwaySunNov06,20111:26am
gregkavarnos wrote:
. . in an unhappy destination, in perdition, in hell...
9/14
14/10/2558
Do you honestly think the countless hell realms, with their mountains of redhot iron and
black flames, are physically real places? They're not. They are created by the mind of the
individual, hereandnow. The reason there are so many hell realms (countless, in fact) is
because of the countless forms of suffering people create inside their own minds.
Top

byMalcolmSunNov06,20111:32am
KevinSolway wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:
. . in an unhappy destination, in perdition, in hell...
Do you honestly think the countless hell realms, with their mountains of redhot
iron and black flames, are physically real places? They're not. They are created
by the mind of the individual, hereandnow. The reason there are so many hell
realms (countless, in fact) is because of the countless forms of suffering people
create inside their own minds.
From a Mahyna perspective, this is a trivial point. Vasubandhu also rejected the physical
existence of hell realms, but did not reject their existence altogether.
The suffering of a being experiencing a hell realm is far worse than any imaginable human
suffering, however.
N
Top

Namdrol wrote:
KevinSolway wrote:
Just as a candle can be used to light many other candles, which burn
simultaneously, in just the same way mental activities kindle many
other mental activities, in other physical forms, which function
simultaneously. For example, a teacher can have many students, and a
parent can have many children.
10/14
14/10/2558
Cause and effect is a treelike web of interactions, rather than a narrow

linear channel.
As to the first point, those who reject serial rebirth do not accept the teaching
of the Buddha on mental causailty.
Those who reject literal reincarnation do not reject serial rebirth. "Serial" means "not
occurring at the same time", and indeed, the consequences of one's actions do not occur at
the same time as one's actions, but they occur afterwards. For example, a teacher must first
teach the students before mental activities in the students can be kindled. The one follows
the other, in series. The future follows the present. This is what is meant by "serial rebirth".
Those who reject the literal rebirth interpretation do in fact accept the teaching of the
Buddha on mental causality.
read the mahniddana sutta
Your interpretation differs from mine. Please try to use reason rather than appealing to
authority. The appeal to authority is a logical fallacy, and this should be taught by all
Buddhist teachers.
you are conflating the teaching about general cause and effect with dependent
origination.
The teaching of the 12 links of dependent origination is a particular application of the fact of
cause and effect, as it pertains to ignorance, happiness and suffering.
The teaching of serial rebirth or reincarnation was clearly taught by the Buddha
in hundreds of suttas.
I don't know anyone who questions that actions are followed by consequences. That is the
essence of serial rebirth. It doesn't have anything to do with people being reborn as frogs or
suchlike speculative nonsense.
You can of course choose to ignore the Buddha's teachings on this point, and try
to "interpret" rebirth
Unless you have come up with a way to read words without interpreting them, then you are
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also interpreting the words.

If you can indeed read words without interpreting them, then you will be the first person in
the whole of history to be able to do so.
Top

Namdrol wrote:
The suffering of a being experiencing a hell realm is far worse than any
imaginable human suffering, however.
And you know this how?

Top

byMalcolmSunNov06,20112:08am
KevinSolway wrote:
Those who reject literal reincarnation do not reject serial rebirth.
Yes, in fact they do. If
"Serial" means "not occurring at the same time", and indeed, the consequences
of one's actions do not occur at the same time as one's actions, but they occur
afterwards. For example, a teacher must first teach the students before mental
activities in the students can be kindled. The one follows the other, in series.
The future follows the present. This is what is meant by "serial rebirth".
Not according to the Buddha, and it is Buddha's definition of rebirth that are under
consideration, not Kevin Solway's. In this instance, an appeal to authority is valid since the
Buddha' teachings are the one's being considered. In some other circumstance, were we
interested in discussing Kevin Solway's doctrine of karma and so on, then an appeal to the
authority of the Buddha would be useless, since we would not be discussing Buddhism, but
rather Solwayism.
12/14
14/10/2558
Those who reject the literal rebirth interpretation do in fact accept the
teaching of the Buddha on mental causality.
Essentially, serial rebirth is the serial or successive appropriation of successive bodies by an

afflicted mental continuum; for example, a mental continuum that in one instance
appropriated the body of an amphibian, and later came to appropriate the body of a deva or
a human.
read the mahniddana sutta
Your interpretation differs from mine. Please try to use reason rather than
appealing to authority. The appeal to authority is a logical fallacy, and this
should be taught by all Buddhist teachers.
If you are not a Buddhist, an appeal to authority of the Buddha is of course useless. If you are
a Buddhist, then an appeal to the authority of the Buddha' teaching, as recorded in hundreds
of suttas, is entirely appropriate.
Essentially, it is rational decision tree:
Does mind derive from matter? Yes or no?
If one answers yes, then one is a physicalist and there is no point in proceding further.
Buddha's teachings have little value beyond their ethical content, in this instance. There
nothing particularly special about Buddhist teachings on emptiness, dependent origination,
and so on that may be not gleaned from Hume, Adorno and so on.
If no, then we can continue. If mind does not derive from matter, it must have a cause,
nevertheless. If it does not have a first cause, it must have a conditioned cause. Since things
like memory of past lives and so on are best accounted for through mental moments that
exist in a serial continuum, two moments in a continuum being neither the same nor different
from one another, things like memory of past lives and so on are easily accounted for without
having to invent a self as a repository of information.
It is the nature of mind as a substance (dravya) that requires that all mind are unique this is
well established by Vasubandhu.
It doesn't have anything to do with people being reborn as frogs or suchlike

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speculative nonsense.
Well, you can accuse the Buddha of being a speculator if you like. It is pretty clear that
Buddha discussed person's taking rebirth as different forms of beings, animals, devas and so
on and did so in a manner that indicates he actually beleived in rebirth as I have outlined it.
Now, you don't have to accept it, but please do not expect us to think that the Buddha did
not beleive it. It is very clear that he did.
Unless you have come up with a way to read words without interpreting them,
then you are also interpreting the words.
There no need to interpret what the Buddha has said on this point.
N
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14/10/2558

Are Karma and Rebirth Real?

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64347)

Please provide a quote where I claimed to be omniscient and omnipotent.

if Kev says to me that he knows reality and I don't, well...

I said "If I know reality and you don't . . ."

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64349)

I wouldn't know, I'm a nonBuddhist, remember?

102804_fg15.jpg (41.63 KiB) Viewed 537 times

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64351)

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64355)

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64356)

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64357)

Did you miss the bit about me being a clown?

clown&dog.JPG (27.46 KiB) Viewed 493 times

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64358)

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64360)

For the Buddha, rebirth, punarbhva, was a simple fact.

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64361)

Re: are karma and rebirth for real?

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64362)

Arguing that the continual appropriation of new physical forms by an afflicted

Those who reject literal rebirth don't argue such a thing.

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64365)

This thread has been unlocked early and a post editted.

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64414)

gossips, is covetous, is illwilled, and has wrong view.[4] On the dissolution of

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nymo.html

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64415)

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64426)

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64429)

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64449)

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64450)

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64453)

Cause and effect is a treelike web of interactions, rather than a narrow

read the mahniddana sutta

also interpreting the words.

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64455)

And you know this how?

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64457)

Yes, in fact they do. If

Essentially, serial rebirth is the serial or successive appropriation of successive bodies by an

read the mahniddana sutta

It doesn't have anything to do with people being reborn as frogs or suchlike

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