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AN 4.
24 Kalaka Sutta - Dhamma Wheel
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AN 4.24 Kalaka Sutta

by mikenz66 Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:58 pm
P
ANo 4.24 AN ii 24 Kaka
s
Translated
by Bhikku Bodhi
t
mikenz66
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http://suttacentral.net/an4.24/en
Thus have I heard. [660] On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Sketa, at Kakas
Park. [661] There the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus: Bhikkhus!
Venerable sir! those bhikkhus replied. The Blessed One said this:
Bhikkhus, in this world with its devas, Mra, and Brahm, among this population with its
ascetics and brahmins, its devas and humans, whatever is seen, heard, sensed, cognized,
reached, sought after, examined by the mindthat I know.
Bhikkhus, in this world with its devas, Mra, and Brahm, among this population with its
ascetics and brahmins, its devas and humans, whatever is seen, heard, sensed, cognized,
reached, sought after, examined by the mindthat I have directly known. It has been known
by the Tathgata, [662] but the Tathgata did not become subservient to it. [663]
Bhikkhus, if I were to say, In this world with its devas whatever is seen, heard, sensed,
cognized, reached, sought after, examined by the mindthat I do not know, that would be a
falsehood on my part.
cognized, reached, sought after, examined by the mindthat I both know and do not know,
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=19658&p=276464[12/8/2558 21:04:35]
AN 4.24 Kalaka Sutta - Dhamma Wheel
that too would be just the same. [664]

cognized, reached, sought after, examined by the mindthat I neither know nor do not know,
that would be a fault on my part. [665]
(1) So, having seen what can be seen, the Tathgata does not misconceive the seen, does not
misconceive the unseen, does not misconceive what can be seen, does not misconceive one
who sees. [666] (2) Having heard what can be heard, he does not misconceive the heard, does
not misconceive the unheard, does not misconceive what can be heard, does not misconceive
one who hears. (3) Having sensed what can be sensed, he does not misconceive the sensed,
does not misconceive the unsensed, does not misconceive what can be sensed, does not
misconceive one who senses. (4) Having cognized what can be cognized, he does not
misconceive the cognized, does not misconceive the uncognized, does not misconceive what
can be cognized, does not misconceive one who cognizes.
Thus, bhikkhus, being ever stable among things seen, heard, sensed, and cognized, the
Tathgata is a stable one. [667] And, I say, there is no stable one more excellent or sublime
than that stable one.
Amid those who are self-constrained, the Stable One
would not posit as categorically true or false
anything seen, heard, or sensed,
clung to and considered truth by others. [668]
Since they have already seen this dart [669]
to which people cling and adhere,
saying I know, I see, it is just so,
the Tathgatas cling to nothing.
Notes:
[660] Ce has this in brackets. Be and Ee do not have it at all.
[661] According to Mp, Kaka was a wealthy financier and the fatherin-law of Anthapiikas
daughter Casubhadd. At the time of her marriage, he had been a devotee of the naked
ascetics and knew nothing about the Buddha or his teaching. Casubhadd contrived to get
him to invite the Buddha and the monks for a meal offering. After the meal, the Buddha gave a
discourse that established him in the fruit of stream-entry. Kaka then built a monastery in his
park and donated both monastery and park to the Buddha. One day, when the bhikkhus who
were natives of Sketa were sitting in the meeting hall discussing the Buddhas success in
converting Kaka, the Buddha read their minds and knew they were ready for a discourse that
would settle them in arahantship. It would also cause the great earth to quake up to its
boundaries. Hence he addressed the bhikkhus.
[662] Mp: By these three terms (jnmi, abbhasi, vidita) the plane of omniscience
(sabbautabhmi) is indicated. In the history of Buddhism, as well as in modern scholarship,
the question whether the Buddha claimed omniscience has been a subject of debate. The
Buddha certainly rejected the claim that one could know everything all the time (see MN 71.5,
I 482,418) as well as the claim that one could know everything simultaneously (see MN 90.8, II
127,2830). But he also says that to hold that he totally rejects the possibility of omniscience
is to misrepresent him (MN 90.5, II 126,3127,11). Thus it seems to follow that what the
Buddha rejected is the possibility of continuous and simultaneous knowledge of everything, but
not discrete and intentional knowledge of whatever can be known (which would exclude much
of the future, since it is not predetermined).
[663] Ta tathgato na upahsi. Mp: The Tathgata did not become subservient to any
object at the six sense doors, that is, he did not take it up (na upagachi) through craving or
views. For it is said: The Blessed One sees a form with the eye, but he has no desire and lust
for it; the Blessed One is fully liberated in mind. The Blessed One cognizes a phenomenon
with the mind, but he has no desire and lust for it; the Blessed One is fully liberated in mind
(see SN 35:232, IV 16465). By this the plane of arahantship (khsavabhmi) is indicated.
[664] Ta passa tdisameva. Mp: That too would just be false speech.
[665] Ta mamassa kali. Mp: That statement would be a fault of mine. With the above three
statements, the plane of truth (saccabhmi) is indicated.
[666] Mp: He does not misconceive (na maati) visible form by way of craving, conceit, or
views; and so for the other objects. By this passage, the plane of emptiness (suatbhmi) is
explained.
[667] The word td, originally a simple referential term meaning that one, takes on a special
sense when used to designate the Buddha or an arahant. Nidd I 11415 explains that an arahant
is called td because he has transcended preferences, given up (catto) defilements, crossed
(tio) the floods, and has a liberated (mutto) mind.
Mp: Being ever stable is a stable one (tdyeva td): Stable means exactly the same
(ekasadisat). The Tathgata is the same both in gain and loss, fame and obscurity, blame and
praise, and pleasure and pain. By this the plane of the stable one (tdibhmi) has been
explained. As he concluded the teaching with these five planes, on each of the five occasions
the earth quaked as testimony.
[668] I paraphrase Mps explanation of this verse: He would not take even one claim of the
speculative theorists (dihigatik)who are self-constrained (sayasavutesu) in the sense
that they are constrained or blocked by their conceptionsto be categorical or supreme and
trust it, believe it, fall back on it as true or false (eva sacca mus vpi para uttama
katv na odaheyya, na saddaheyya, na pattiyyeyya), thinking: This alone is true and anything
else is false. This explanation nicely connects the verse to the prose line, the Tathgata did
not become subservient to it.
[669] MP identifies the dart as the dart of views (dihisalla). Elsewhere craving is spoken of
as the dart, for instance, at MN II 258,27, and SN I 40,7; in still other passages, the dart is
sorrow, as at 5:48, 5:50.
o
p
Re: AN 4.24 Kalaka Sutta

by mikenz66 Fri Jan 17, 2014 10:16 pm
P
ANo 4.24 PTS: A ii 23 Kalaka Sutta: At Kalaka's Park
s
translated
from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
t
mikenz66
Posts: 12057
7:37 am
Even though the Buddha has deep understanding, he doesn't take a stance on any of it.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
On one occasion the Blessed One was staying in Saketa at Kalaka's park. There he addressed the
monks: "Monks!"
"Yes, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said: "Monks, whatever in the cosmos with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, its
generations with their contemplatives & brahmans royalty & common people is seen, heard,
sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect: That do I know. Whatever
in the cosmos with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, its generations with their contemplatives &
brahmans, their royalty & common people is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought
after, pondered by the intellect: That I directly know. That has been realized by the
Tathagata, but in the Tathagata[1] it has not been established.[2]
"If I were to say, 'I don't know whatever in the cosmos... is seen, heard, sensed, cognized...
pondered by the intellect,' that would be a falsehood in me. If I were to say, 'I both know and
don't know whatever in the cosmos... is seen, heard, sensed, cognized... pondered by the
intellect,' that would be just the same. If I were to say, 'I neither know nor don't know
whatever in the cosmos... is seen, heard, sensed, cognized... pondered by the intellect,' that
would be a fault in me.
"Thus, monks, the Tathagata, when seeing what is to be seen, doesn't construe an [object as]
seen. He doesn't construe an unseen. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-seen. He doesn't
construe a seer.
"When hearing...
"When sensing...
"When cognizing what is to be cognized, he doesn't construe an [object as] cognized. He doesn't
construe an uncognized. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-cognized. He doesn't construe a
cognizer.
Thus, monks, the Tathagata being the same with regard to all phenomena that can be seen,
heard, sensed, & cognized is 'Such.' And I tell you: There's no other 'Such' higher or more
sublime.
"Whatever is seen or heard or sensed

and fastened onto as true by others,
One who is Such among the self-fettered
wouldn't further claim to be true or even false.
"Having seen well in advance that arrow
where generations are fastened & hung
'I know, I see, that's just how it is!'
there's nothing of the Tathagata fastened."
Notes
1. Reading tathagate with the Thai edition.
2. I.e., the Tathagata hasn't taken a stance on it.
See also:
MN 2; http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

AN 10.93; http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Ud 1.10; http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Ud 8.1. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
o
p
SamKR
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4:33 pm
Location: Virginia

by SamKR Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:02 pm
P
o
Interesting
that how seemingly minor differences in translations
s
understandings
may make big difference in meditation practice
t
and the corresponding

and the results. Following are
the three translations of "diha na maati":
Translator -------------------> Translation

Bhikkhu Bodhi ---------------> "does not misconceive the seen"
Thanissaro Bhikkhu ---------> "doesn't construe an [object as] seen"
Bhikkhu K. Nanananda -----> "does not conceive of a visible thing as apart from sight"
(http://www.nibbanam.com/MagicOfMind.pdf)
For this particular sutta I would go with the translations of Thanissaro Bhikkhu or Bhikkhu K.
Nanananda.
In the footnotes of his translations of this sutta in "Magic of the Mind", Bhikkhu K. Nanananda
writes:
'Na mannati : Mannana marks that stage in sense perception when one egotistically imagines or
fancies a perceived 'thing' to be out there in its own right. It is a fissure in the perceptual
situation which results in a subject - object. dichotomy perpetuating the conceit and 'mine'.
[...]
The Comm: (AA. SHB. 519) takes the words datttha datthabbam in the text to mean: `having
seen, should be known' and explains the following words dittham na mannati' as a separate
phrase meaning that the Tathagata does not entertain any cravings, conceits or views, thinking:
I am seeing that which has been seen by the people'. It applies the same mode of explanation
throughout. It is perhaps more plausible to explain dattha or dittha (vl. in Burmese MSS; see A.
II 25 fn. 3)' as an ablative form of the past participle giving the sense: às apart from from
sight'; and, `datthabbam dittham' taken together, would mean: 'a visible thing'. So also, the
other three corresponding terms: sutta muta and vinnatam The Buddha Jayanthi Tipitaka Series
(No. 19, Sinhalese script) recognizes this reading but follows the Comm. in rendering them as
absolutives.The Sangiti Pitaka edition (Burmese script) as well as the P.T.S. edition, has the
absolutive form: 'sutva' 'mutvd' and vinnatva -which is probably a re-correction following the
commentarial explanation,
Last edited by SamKR on Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
o
p

by mikenz66 Sat Jan 18, 2014 7:46 pm
P
o
Thanks
Sam, I should have included Bhikkhu
s
t
Nanananda's translation:
mikenz66
Posts: 12057
7:37 am
KALAKARAMA SUTTA
Translated by Bhikkhu Nanananda
http://www.nibbanam.com/MagicOfMind.pdf
At one time the. Exalted One was staying at Saketa in Kalaka's monastery. There the Exalted
One
addressed the monks, saying: `Monks'. `Revered Sir,' replied those monks in assent. The Exalted
One
said:
"Monks, whatsoever in the world with its gods, Maras and Brahmas among the progeny
consisting of recluses and brahmins, gods and men, - whatsoever is seen, heard, sensed,(1)
cognized,
attained, sought after and pondered over by the mind - all that do I know. Monks, whatsoever
in the
world ......... of gods and men, - whatsoever is seen, ........ by the mind, - that have I fully
understood;
all that is known to the Tathagata (2) but the Tathagata has not taken his stand upon it.(3)
If I were to say `Monks, whatsoever in the world..... of ..... gods and men -whatsoever is seen
.....
by the mind - all that, I do not know' it would be a falsehood in me.(4) If I were to say: I
both
know and know not that too would be a falsehood in me. If I were to say: I neither know it
nor
am ignorant of it it would be a fault in me (5). Thus, monks, a Tathdgata does not conceive
(6) of a visible thing as apart from sight(1a); he does not conceive of an unseen (2a) he does
not conceive of a
'thing-worth-seeing', (3a) he does not conceive about a seer. (4a)
He does not conceive of an audible thing as apart from hearing; he does not conceive of 'an
unheard', he does not conceive of a 'thing-worth-hearing'; he does not conceive about a hearer.
He
does not conceive of a thing to be sensed as apart from sensation; he does not conceive of an
unsensed; he does not conceive of a `thing-worth-sensing'; he does not conceive about one who
senses. He does not conceive of a cognizable thing as apart from cognition; he does not
conceive
of an uncognized; he does not conceive of a `thing-worth-cognitiog'; he does not conceive
about
one who cognizes.
Thus, monks, the Tathagata, being such-like in regard to all phenomena seen, heard, sensed,
and cognized, is `Such'. (5a) Moreover, than he who is `Such', there is none other greater or
more
excellent, I declare.(6a)
`Whatever is seen, heard, sensed or clung to,
is esteemed as truth by other folk,
Midst those who are entrenched in their own views, (7a)
being 'Such' I hold none as true or false.
This barb I beheld, well in advance,(1b)
'whereon mankind are hooked, impaled.
Ì know, I see 'tis. verily so' - (2b)
no such clinging for the Tathagatas
Notes:
(1) 'muta': Sensations arising from taste, touch and smell.
(2) According to the Commentary (AA) 'the plane of omniscience' sabbannutabhumi has been
made known by the three phrases: 'all that do I
know', 'that have I fully understood' and 'all that is known to the Tathagata.'
(3) Comm: 'The Tathagata does not take his stand upon, or approach by way of craving or
views. The Exalted One sees a form with the eye, but in him there is no desire and lust (for it);
he
is well released in mind. The Exalted One hears a sound with the ear . . . . . smells an odour
with
the nose ..... tastes a flavour with the tongue .... touches a tangible with the body ......
cognizes an
idea with the mind, but in him there is no desire-and-lust; he is well released in mind (S. IV
164) hence was it said that the Tathagata takes no stand upon it. It should be understood that by
this
phrase the plane of the Influx-free khinasavabhumi is made known.'
(4)This rendering is in accordance with the reading 'na janami found in the Chattha Sangiti
edition.
Enquiries have revealed that it conforms to the Mandalay Slabs. The P.T.S. edition, as well as
some
Sinhala script editions, gives ' janami omitting the negative particle, but this is unlikely, as it
contradicts the Buddha's own statement in the preceding para. The initial declaration 'all that
do I
know' tamaham jdndmi') is reinforced by what follows: `that have I fully understood' (tamahain
ab
bhannasim àll that is known to the Tathagata' (tam tathigaiassa viditam") A significant
reservation has
also been added : `but the Tathagata has not taken his stand upon it' (tam tathagato na
upatthdsi'). Hence
the reading janami would lead to a contradiction: 'If I were to say .......... all that do I know
........ it
would be a falsehood in me'. The variant reading 'na janami on the other hand, suggests itself
as the
second alternative of the tetralemma, followed as it is by the third and fourth alternatives.
The relevance of these three alternatives to the context is reflected in that reservation
referred to
above.
(5)The phrases: 'it would be a falsehood in me', 'that too would be a falsehood in me,' 'it would
be a
fault in me', are said to indicate the 'plane of truth' (saccabhumi).
(6)'Na mannati : Mann ana marks that stage in sense perception when one egotistically imagines
or
fancies a perceived 'thing' to be out there in its own right. It is
a fissure in the perceptual situation which results in a subject - object. dichotomy perpetuating
the
conceit and 'mine'.
(1a) The Comm: (AA. SHB. 519) takes the words datttha datthabbam in the text to mean:
`having seen, should be
known' and explains the following words dittham na mannati' as a separate phrase meaning that
the Tathagata does not
entertain any cravings, conceits or views, thinking: I am seeing that which has been seen by the
people'. It applies the
same mode of explanation throughout. It is perhaps more plausible to explain dattha or dittha
(vl. in Burmese MSS;
see A. II 25 fn. 3)' as an ablative form of the past participle giving the sense: às apart from
from sight'; and,
`datthabbam dittham' taken together, would mean: 'a visible thing'. So also, the other three
corresponding terms: sutta
muta and vinnatam The Buddha Jayanthi Tipitaka Series (No. 19, Sinhalese script) recognizes
this reading but follows
the Comm. in rendering them as absolutives.The Sangiti Pitaka edition (Burmese script) as well
as the P.T.S. edition,
has the absolutive form: 'sutva' 'mutvd' and vinnatva -which is probably a re-correction
following the commentarial
explanation,
(2a) 'adittham na mannati': According to the Comm. this means that the Tathagata does not
fancy (due to craving etc.)
He is seeing something which has not been seen by the people. But the expression seems to
imply just the opposite.
It brings out the idea behind the statement: "If I were to say: 'Monks, whatsoever in the world
... of ... gods and men
whatsoever is seen ... by the mind -all that I do not know,' it would be a falsehood in me."
(3a) `datthabbam' na mannati': Here the full gerundival sense of the verb is evident. The
Tathagata does not consider
any of those 'sights' that people cherish, as 'worth-whileseeing' - in the highest sense. He does
not see anything
substantial in them.
(4a) 'dattharam na mannati': The Tathagata does not entertain any conceit of being the 'agent'
behind seeing. When
'sights' lose their object-status they do not reflect a 'seer' on the subjective side. These four
modes of conceiving
represent the plane of voidness' sunnatabhumi
(5a) tadi 'Such' o r 'Such-like.'
An epithet of the emancipated one signifying his supreme detachment. This
declaration indicates the. plane of the 'Such One' (tadibhumi).
(6a) 'tesu ...... sayasamvutesu The Comm. says: 'among those who are of (divers) views and who
had
grasped them having themselves recollected and cherished those view-points'. The expression
rather conveys the
sense of self -opinionatedness due to philosophical in-breeding, and may be rendered by:
'among those who are
restricted samvuta to their own views'.
(7a) [Seems to be missing in the PDF...]

(1c)etanca sallam paligacca disva `Having seen this barb well in advance'- explained by the
Comm as the
barb of views which the Buddha saw in advance, at the foot of the Bodhi tree.
(2c)`janami passami tatheva etam': A phrase often cited in the Pali Canon as representing the
stamp of
dogmatism characteristic of speculative views. It is on a par with the dogmatic assertion:
ìdameva
saccam moghamannam' (`This alone is true, all else is false') which accompanies the
formulation of the
ten 'Unexplained Points' (avyakatavatthuni).
o
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by pulga Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:20 pm
P
o
s
t
Amid those who are self-constrained, the Stable One

would not posit as categorically true or false
anything seen, heard, or sensed,
clung to and considered truth by others. [668]
Since they have already seen this dart [669]
to which people cling and adhere,
saying I know, I see, it is just so,
the Tathgatas cling to nothing. AN 4.24
"Truth is subjectivity." Kierkegaard

Objective truth is founded upon the first-person perspective which is always "underdetermined".
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by boris Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:26 pm
P
o
s
t
This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Accomplished One,
so I heard:
"Bhikkhus, the world has been discovered by the Perfect One, the Tathagata: the Perfect One is
dissociated from the world. The origin of the world has been discovered by the Perfect One: the
Perfect One has abandoned the origin of the world. The cessation of the world has been
discovered by the Perfect One: the Perfect One has realized the cessation of the world. The
way leading to the cessation of the world has been discovered by the Perfect One: the Perfect
One has maintained in being the way leading to the cessation of the world. "In the world with
its deities ... whatever can be seen, heard, sensed (by nose, tongue or body), and cognized, or
reached, sought out and encompassed by the mind, has been discovered by the Perfect One:
that is why he is called a Perfect One (Tathagata). All that he says, all that he utters, between

the night when he discovers the supreme full enlightenment and the night when he attains final
Nibbana, the element of Nibbana without result of former clinging left, is true {tathd)y not
other than that: that is why he is called a Perfect One (Tathagata). As he says, so (tatha) he
does; as he does, so (tatha) he says: that is why he is called a Perfect One (Tathagata). In the
world with its deities ... it is the Perfect One who is the Transcendent Being Untranscended,
All-seer and Wielder of Powers: that is why he is called a Perfect One." Itx. 112; A. 4:23
"Whatever in this world with its deities ... is to be seen, heard, sensed, and cognized, or
reached, sought out and encompassed by the mind, that I know, that I have directly known.
Now while that is recognized by a Perfect One, he nevertheless does not use it as a basis (for
conceits). Were I to say of all that, that I know it not, that would be falsely spoken by me; and
were I to say of it that I know it and know it not, that would be the same; and were I to say of
it that I neither know it nor know it not, that would be incorrect on my part. So, having seen
what can be seen, a Perfect One conceives no conceit3 of what is seen, he conceives no conceit
of what is unseen, he conceives no conceit of what could be seen, he conceives no conceit of
any seer. Having heard what can be heard ... Having sensed what can be sensed ... Having
cognized what can be cognized ... he conceives no conceit of any cognizer. A Perfect One thus
equipoised towards things seen, heard, sensed, or cognized, remains thus equipoised; and there
is no other equipoise that is beyond or superior to that equipoise, I say." A. 4:24
translation: Ven. Nanamoli

Whatever in this world with its deities ... is to be seen, heard, sensed, and cognized, or
reached, sought out and encompassed by the mind, belongs to namarupa, which is
determination for arisng of consciousness. Such knowledge may be useful, but it will not give
us direct knowledge of what consciousness "is". But it is exactly knowledge of what
cosciousness "is", constitute liberation: wisdom is to be developed, consciousness is to be
fully understood M 43
Perhaps this is an interesting idea: in order to develop knowledge, each day we should learn
something new, in order to gain wisdom we must be able to suspend all our knowledge. In
realization of voidness, there is no knowledge of namarupa, or at least such knowledge is not
used as a basis (for onceits).
The man who wants to avoid grotesque collapses should not look for anything to fulfill him in space
and time.
Nicols Gmez Dvila
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by pulga Tue Jan 21, 2014 4:19 pm
P
o
Truth
is discovered.
s
t
At Dgha i,9 <D.i,185>, Potthapda asks the Buddha whether perception arises before
knowledge, or knowledge before perception, or both together. The Buddha gives the following
answer: Sa kho Potthapda pathamam uppajjati, pacch nam; sa'uppd ca pana
n'uppdo hoti. So evam pajnti, Idapaccay kira me nam udapd ti. ('Perception,
Potthapda, arises first, knowledge afterwards; but with arising of perception there is arising of
knowledge. One understands thus: 'With this as condition, indeed, knowledge arose in me.'')
Sa thus precedes na, not only temporally but also structurally (or logically). Perception,
that is to say, is structurally simpler than knowledge; and though perception comes first in
time, it does not cease (see CITTA) in order that knowledge can arise. [a] However many

stories there are to a house, the ground floor is built first; but it is not then removed to
make way for the rest. (The case of vitakkavicr and vcANOTE ON PATICCASAMUPPDA 5
is parallel.) anavira SN: Sa
Cf. the layers of complexities in a horizon, or the structure of a line. To the extent that
objective truth is a consolidation of the real and the imaginary, i.e. the real point of view of
the individual and the imaginary points of view of others -- the consolidation itself being an
individual's real point of view of a higher order of complexity -- there is no real basis to cling
to any point of view: some just happen to be real others imaginary: all are impermanent.
I see knowledge as essentially an act of reflexion, in which the 'thing' to be known presents itself
(is presented) explicitly as standing out against a background (or in a context) that was already
there implicitly. In reflexion, a (limited) totality is given, consisting of a centre and a periphery
a particular cow appears surrounded by a number of cattle, and there is the judgement, 'The
cow is in the herd'. Certainly, there is an intention to judge, and this consists in the deliberate
withdrawal of attention from the immediate level of experience to the reflexive (cf. DHAMMA
[b]); but the question is not whether judgment is an intentional action (which it is), but
whether there can be intention (even reflexive intention) without a subject ('I', 'myself') who
intends. anavira L. 145 | 155] 2 July 1965
This is where Husserl goes awry: while he recognizes that active synthesis is founded upon
passive synthesis he believes that such an act of intentionality entails an ego who does the
intending. Whereas in the Suttas it is feeling that brings about the intentional act of judging
(ya vedeti ta sajnti MN.18 and elsewhere in the SN).
Last edited by pulga on Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:46 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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culaavuso
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by culaavuso Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:02 pm
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boris wrote:
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Whatever in this world with its deities ... is to be seen, heard, sensed, and cognized, or
reached, sought out and encompassed by the mind, belongs to namarupa, which is
determination for arisng of consciousness. Such knowledge may be useful, but it will not give us
direct knowledge of what consciousness "is". But it is exactly knowledge of what cosciousness
"is", constitute liberation: wisdom is to be developed, consciousness is to be fully understood
M 43
Perhaps this is an interesting idea: in order to develop knowledge, each day we should learn
something new, in order to gain wisdom we must be able to suspend all our knowledge. In
realization of voidness, there is no knowledge of namarupa, or at least such knowledge is not
used as a basis (for onceits).
Regarding that quote from MN 43, it is interesting to compare it with a couple others to put it
in context:
MN 43
MN 43: Mahavedalla Sutta wrote:

"Discernment & consciousness, friend: Of these qualities that are conjoined, not disjoined,
discernment is to be developed, consciousness is to be fully comprehended."
This, together with the role of consciousness in the five aggregates, seems to suggest that
discernment is part of the noble truth of the way of practice leading to the ending of stress,
and consciousness is part of the noble truth of stress.
SN 56.11
SN 56.11: Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta wrote:
"Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me
with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of stress.' Vision arose, insight
arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things
never heard before: 'This noble truth of stress is to be comprehended.' Vision arose, insight
arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things
never heard before:' This noble truth of stress has been comprehended.'
with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of the origination of stress'...
'This noble truth of the origination of stress is to be abandoned' [2] ... 'This noble truth of the
origination of stress has been abandoned.'
with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of the cessation of stress'...
'This noble truth of the cessation of stress is to be directly experienced'... 'This noble truth of
the cessation of stress has been directly experienced.'
with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of the way of practice leading
to the cessation of stress'... 'This noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation
of stress is to be developed'... 'This noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation
of stress has been developed.'
Understanding consciousness along with the other aggregates with right discernment has the
function of leading to seeing how the three marks of inconstancy, stressfulness, and not-self
apply, leading to dispassion, which then leads to liberation:
SN 22.59
SN 22.59: Anatta-lakkhana Sutta wrote:
"Any consciousness whatsoever that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or
subtle; common or sublime; far or near: every consciousness is to be seen as it actually is with
right discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.'
"Seeing thus, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with form,
disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with perception, disenchanted with fabrications,
disenchanted with consciousness. Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion,
he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that
'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"
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by boris Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:33 pm
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culaavuso wrote:
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disenchanted with consciousness. Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion,
he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that
'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"
Right, the main objection against knowledge is that: This world does not deserve to be known
and time.
Nicols Gmez Dvila
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by kirk5a Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:17 pm
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boris wrote:
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culaavuso wrote:
kirk5a
Posts: 1894
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disenchanted with consciousness. Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through
dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.'
He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing
further for this world.'"
Right, the main objection against knowledge is that: This world does not deserve to be known
Maybe not, but here it is, day after day. So like it or not, the matter of liberation becomes tied
to the matter of participation. Except for an arahant having spoken his last words, perhaps.
But it is noteworthy, to me, that an arahant such as the Buddha did participate in the
maximally compassionate way right up to the very end.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I
am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing?
Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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by boris Fri Jan 24, 2014 12:02 am
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kirk5a wrote:
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But it is noteworthy, to me, that an arahant such as the Buddha did participate in the
maximally compassionate way right up to the very end.
Right, and out of compassion He teach right way of living, Amiel would agree with you
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It is clear that the western nations in general, and especially the Americans, know very little of
this state of feeling. For them life is devouring and incessant activity. They are eager for gold,
for power, for dominion; their aim is to crush men and to enslave nature. They show an
obstinate interest in means, and have not a thought for the end. They confound being with
individual being, and the expansion of the self with happinessthat is to say, they do not live
by the soul; they ignore the unchangeable and the eternal; they live at the periphery of their
being, because they are unable to penetrate to its axis. They are excited, ardent, positive,
because they are superficial. Why so much effort, noise, struggle, and greed?it is all a mere
stunning and deafening of the self. When death comes they recognize that it is sowhy not then
admit it sooner? Activity is only beautiful when it is holythat is to say, when it is spent in
the service of that which passeth not away.
Amiel'sJournal
and time.
Nicols Gmez Dvila
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AN 4.

24 Kalaka Sutta - Dhamma Wheel

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AN 4.24 Kalaka Sutta

AN 4.24 Kalaka Sutta - Dhamma Wheel

that too would be just the same. [664]

AN 4.24 Kalaka Sutta - Dhamma Wheel

Re: AN 4.24 Kalaka Sutta

AN 4.24 Kalaka Sutta - Dhamma Wheel

"Yes, lord," the monks responded.

"Whatever is seen or heard or sensed

AN 4.24 Kalaka Sutta - Dhamma Wheel

MN 72; http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Re: AN 4.24 Kalaka Sutta

and the corresponding

the three translations of "diha na maati":

Translator -------------------> Translation

Re: AN 4.24 Kalaka Sutta

AN 4.24 Kalaka Sutta - Dhamma Wheel

AN 4.24 Kalaka Sutta - Dhamma Wheel

no such clinging for the Tathagatas

AN 4.24 Kalaka Sutta - Dhamma Wheel

AN 4.24 Kalaka Sutta - Dhamma Wheel

(7a) [Seems to be missing in the PDF...]

Re: AN 4.24 Kalaka Sutta

Amid those who are self-constrained, the Stable One

"Truth is subjectivity." Kierkegaard

Re: AN 4.24 Kalaka Sutta

AN 4.24 Kalaka Sutta - Dhamma Wheel

translation: Ven. Nanamoli

Re: AN 4.24 Kalaka Sutta

AN 4.24 Kalaka Sutta - Dhamma Wheel

Re: AN 4.24 Kalaka Sutta

AN 4.24 Kalaka Sutta - Dhamma Wheel

AN 4.24 Kalaka Sutta - Dhamma Wheel

Re: AN 4.24 Kalaka Sutta

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AN 4.24 Kalaka Sutta - Dhamma Wheel

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