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03-25-2007, 08:26 PM #1
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Agree Or Dissagree?
i have been doing a little research and as you all know everybody agrees that BYB'S breed for looks
and size among other things, well in doing that they loose things like temperment right? well that
being said take a bull type dog thats human agressive do you think that the fact that it has at least
some true game dog blood in it will keep it from turning on its owner?
i mean as far as i know back in the day when dogs were rolling the owner had to be able to grab the
dog and if it bit the owner it was destroyed, so is it a coin flip or do you think even a poorly bread
dog will be true to its owner but not necessarily other people even family?
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03-25-2007, 08:39 PM #2
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Re: Agree Or Dissagree?
Quote:
Originally Posted by clutch billups

i have been doing a little research and as you all know everybody agrees that BYB'S breed for
looks and size among other things, well in doing that they loose things like temperment right?
well that being said take a bull type dog thats human agressive do you think that the fact
that it has at least some true game dog blood in it will keep it from turning on its owner?
i mean as far as i know back in the day when dogs were rolling the owner had to be able to
grab the dog and if it bit the owner it was destroyed, so is it a coin flip or do you think even
a poorly bread dog will be true to its owner but not necessarily other people even family?
Well I don't know about anyone else's dogs.. but I have 2 from byb's even though 2 of them are
rescues.. and they are a bit scatterbred... but both are bred decent on one side and scattered on the
other. I've had 1 semi problem with any human aggression and that was not a real problem. See my
wife slapped my leg when I was laying in my recliner with Cheyenne, Cheyenne looks up, looks at me
and then at my wife... the my wife slaps my leg again and I yell like it hurts and Cheyenne snaps at
her.. So i don't blame her it was our fault. And its never happened again.
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03-25-2007, 09:26 PM #3
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I think more of the problem is in the handling and I only say this because I have never had one of
my own bite me in a dangerous way. I have had mutts and purebreds and I have had them go after
other people but oddly enough not my pits....I think though that a dog bred FOR temperament is
more well rounded and a little more predictable..
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03-25-2007, 10:50 PM #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericschevy

I think more of the problem is in the handling and I only say this because I have never had
one of my own bite me in a dangerous way. I have had mutts and purebreds and I have had
them go after other people but oddly enough not my pits....I think though that a dog bred
FOR temperament is more well rounded and a little more predictable..
ive never had problems with my own dogs either but ive heard a lot a of guff about "mutt dogs" but
never heard about them biting owners just other people but on that note ive read "lists" about dogs
that turn on there owners but i dont even think the apbt was even on it and considering all the
misidentifyd "pit bull" bites that happen id say thats pritty good
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03-26-2007, 09:55 PM #5
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Quote:

ive never had problems with my own dogs either but ive heard a lot a of guff about "mutt
dogs" but never heard about them biting owners just other people but on that note ive read
"lists" about dogs that turn on there owners but i dont even think the apbt was even on it
and considering all the misidentifyd "pit bull" bites that happen id say thats pritty good
Well, based on my own experiences I have found that mutts are more likely, but not of my
own...That being said, I can't truely lean one way or the other..
Yes, I agree.. That is still pretty good considering...

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03-26-2007, 11:17 PM #6
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I think there are different factors and you really can't blame a poor temperament on one thing.
Environment plays a role, but a sound dog can go through hell and still never bite anybody. On the
flip side, an unsound dog can't be turned into a sound dog by even the most loving environment.
Poor breeding doesn't necessarily result in an unsound dog, but it could. And not all game dogs were
euthed if they showed human aggression, unfortunately. So there's no sure thing. And then there are
some dogs that are just hardwired wrong and nobody knows why it happens. Going with a well-bred
dog should increase your chances of getting a good temperament, but its not surefire simply because
of all the factors involved.
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03-28-2007, 05:28 PM #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bahamutt99

I think there are different factors and you really can't blame a poor temperament on one
thing. Environment plays a role, but a sound dog can go through hell and still never bite
anybody. On the flip side, an unsound dog can't be turned into a sound dog by even the most
loving environment. Poor breeding doesn't necessarily result in an unsound dog, but it could.
And not all game dogs were euthed if they showed human aggression, unfortunately. So
there's no sure thing. And then there are some dogs that are just hardwired wrong and
nobody knows why it happens. Going with a well-bred dog should increase your chances of
getting a good temperament, but its not surefire simply because of all the factors involved.
Yeah, That's what I meant to say..LOL

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03-28-2007, 08:06 PM #8
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my byb dog dosnt like mexicans, dont reallly understand it to tell you the truth he has no problem
with white or black folks but for some reason he is verry weary of mexicans
03-28-2007, 08:20 PM #9
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Quote:

well to me a dog that is a manbiter or a unstable dog has no place in any home,let alone a home
with children.regardless of what breed it is or whether it is a byb mutt or not bottom line is if i don't
trust em they get a bullet.
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03-28-2007, 10:09 PM #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Timer

well to me a dog that is a manbiter or a unstable dog has no place in any home,let alone a
home with children.regardless of what breed it is or whether it is a byb mutt or not bottom
line is if i don't trust em they get a bullet.
Do you think a manbiter is more likely to be a mutt or a purebred, or is it just a toss up???
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03-29-2007, 10:19 AM #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wheezie

my byb dog dosnt like mexicans, dont reallly understand it to tell you the truth he has no
problem with white or black folks but for some reason he is verry weary of mexicans
Before we moved to the woods we lived in suburban neighborhood. I heard all this yelling one day
and went out back to find my female Phoebe had treed a crew of latinos who where trimming trees.
Had a terrible time getting them out of the tree. Even after I put Phoebe away they still were afraid
and wouldn't come down.
03-29-2007, 11:15 AM #12
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Quote:
A HA dog, IMO, should never be bred.
Oldtimer: I hear where you are coming from. I agree to a point. I think each case is different, and
should be handled accordingly.
03-29-2007, 01:02 PM #13
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Gamebred
Quote:

a man biting dog can be any breed of dog any mix of dog,size of dog just anydog in general has the
propensity to bite.
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03-29-2007, 01:02 PM #14
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Gamebred
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michele
Oldtimer: I hear where you are coming from. I agree to a point. I think each case is
different, and should be handled accordingly.
what do you mean?

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03-29-2007, 01:09 PM #15
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Quote:

what do you mean?
Say you see a dog in a shelter environment. The dog is not familar with it's surroundings, is scared
and goes to bite. In this case, I don't think the dog should be put down.
Say there is a dog running loose, a bunch of kids go up to the dog, surround the dog. The dog gets
aggressive, out of fear and goes to bite. In this case, I don't think the dog should be put down.
Someone on here posted a situation where his dog bit him by accident. I don't remember the thread.
In this case, the dog should not be put down either.
03-29-2007, 03:28 PM #16
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Quote:

Honestly, I'm going to say purebred. Why? Because those are typically the dogs that puppymills and BYBs
are breeding to make money. Mutts are usually oops litters or born from strays which isn't generation after
generation of breeding without regard to temperament. Although now there are all those damn "designer
dogs" so I guess that evens things out. Of course, no matter what kind of dog it is, there is always a
chance of getting an unstable dog. JMHO...
OldTimer, I have to ask out of curiousity, if you had gotten your hands on some dogs like Bullyson, Zebo,
Chinaman, (Gamblers) Virgil, Bolio, etc. (who either outright bit people or redirected their bite in the pit)
would you have culled them?
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03-29-2007, 03:52 PM #17
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interesting question
03-29-2007, 07:57 PM #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyK9

Honestly, I'm going to say purebred. Why? Because those are typically the dogs that puppymills
and BYBs are breeding to make money. Mutts are usually oops litters or born from strays which isn't
generation after generation of breeding without regard to temperament. Although now there are all
those damn "designer dogs" so I guess that evens things out. Of course, no matter what kind of
dog it is, there is always a chance of getting an unstable dog. JMHO...
OldTimer, I have to ask out of curiousity, if you had gotten your hands on some dogs like Bullyson,
Zebo, Chinaman, (Gamblers) Virgil, Bolio, etc. (who either outright bit people or redirected their bite
in the pit) would you have culled them?
That totally makes sense!!!!!!

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03-29-2007, 09:26 PM #19
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Quote:
yeah i would have culled them.i don't belive in owning manbiters no matter how game they are.a lot
of folks wouldn't feel this way but i do.to me a dog ain't worth the price of the feed or worth wasting
my time if he bites the hand that feeds him.
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03-29-2007, 09:32 PM #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michele

Say you see a dog in a shelter environment. The dog is not familar with it's surroundings, is
scared and goes to bite. In this case, I don't think the dog should be put down.
Say there is a dog running loose, a bunch of kids go up to the dog, surround the dog. The
dog gets aggressive, out of fear and goes to bite. In this case, I don't think the dog should
be put down.
Someone on here posted a situation where his dog bit him by accident. I don't remember the
thread. In this case, the dog should not be put down either.
ok i can see the shelter thing to me a dog like that needs to be given a chance but if he still pulls the
same tricks when you get him home for a while then it needs to be culled.i can see a excite biter
because they nip to get you to turn loose of em.the children i am having problems with that,i could
understand if they children were hitting the dog or kicking it or something cause it to go in defense
mode but i wouldn't give it a chance if it just started biting because some kids circled the dog.kids do
that all the time and a dog shouldn't bite a child just for that reason.hell i know my kids used to
gang up on my dogs all the time and they loved it,the more the merrier for them but they had rock
solid temperments.biters are touchy issues for me because i won't will not be to quick to give a biter
any chance.now like my new rotties who are trained for this work i will tolerate them.but they are still
rock solid around my grandkids and they are even trustworthy around strangers as long as i am
there.
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03-29-2007, 09:56 PM #21
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Quote:

yeah i would have culled them.i don't belive in owning manbiters no matter how game they
are.a lot of folks wouldn't feel this way but i do.to me a dog ain't worth the price of the feed
or worth wasting my time if he bites the hand that feeds him.
I got a question along those lines, but not quite. (Hope I'm not hijacking.) How do you feel about
dogs that will kill puppies? I'm not talking about big, almost-grown pups, but the little guys. I read in
a book that prior to the evolution of the "bait dog" theory -- and training dogs by "blooding" them on
puppies and kittens -- that many dogmen didn't like dogs that would go after puppies, as they took it
as a sign of cowardice. And that on some yards, the puppies would run all over and in and out of
chain spots, with the adult dogs never harming them. On the flip side, I was watching a vid on
YouTube of these guys showing off some pups, then the pups ran off, at which point the guy said "I
hope they aint goin' over to Xena, cuz she'll mess them pups up," or something like that.
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03-30-2007, 03:16 PM #22
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Quote:

yeah i would have culled them.i don't belive in owning manbiters no matter how game they
are.a lot of folks wouldn't feel this way but i do.to me a dog ain't worth the price of the feed
or worth wasting my time if he bites the hand that feeds him.
I'm happy to hear that.

Although it would be a shame if these dogs were culled since they are the foundations of many lines, it is
also a shame that the people involved didn't stick to culling dogs with human aggression.
Some of them weren't outright HA, but Bullyson, Virgil, and Zebo were, according to the stories written
about them. Chinaman was too supposedly, but I don't know what the circumstances were... I'm a bit more
lenient to dogs that redirect their bite when they get that tunnel vision, thinking your the enemy or just an
item in biting reach to release some frustration onto.
(There's a Pit/AmBulldog at the shelter I volunteer for that would do this. She'd see another dog and start
doing that shivering cry-like thing, so anxious to get at it, and would bite my arm. She never drew blood or
anything, in fact, I could barely feel it if I was wearing sleeves. She would also do this to her leash and
anything around her.)
I guess this leads me to question just what is genetic and what is complete chance... Bullyson was a cur and
a maneater, but he threw a lot of great match dogs and producers with no HA. He is behind a lot of
bloodlines. So if it is a genetic thing, wouldn't there be a higher incidence of manbiters in blood like Midnight
Cowboy, Honeybunch (Jeep), Chinaman (Frisco), etc. ?
I would also never own a bulldog that was HA but would I buy a pup off of one? I would have to think about
it but from what I stated above, it seems to me that the odds of getting one that is HA, is unlikely... so if it
were good blood, I'd probably take my chances.
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03-30-2007, 10:40 PM #23
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[font='Verdana','sans-serif']i have been doing a little research and as you all know everybody agrees
that BYB'S breed for looks and size among other things, well in doing that they loose things like
temperment right?[/font]
[font='Verdana','sans-serif'][/font][font='Verdana','sans-serif']First is what constitutes a BYB? If going
by a performance or proven track record…would most not be considered BYB’s within this breed or is
a nice pedigree the deciding factor? Second why would they loose something as simplistic as
temperament? That’s the most basic thing to achieve in breeding dogs…not hard to pick out a nice
dog and breed it to another nice dog.[/font]
[font='Verdana','sans-serif'][/font]
[font='Verdana','sans-serif']well that being said take a bull type dog thats human agressive do you
think that the fact that it has at least some true game dog blood in it will keep it from turning on its
owner?[/font]
[font='Verdana','sans-serif'][/font][font='Verdana','sans-serif']News flash…dogs don’t “turn on their
owners”! Having non-game blood or game blood makes zero difference. What it boils down to is the
owner and their ability to control their dog. Also many get into trouble when they know little about a
breed and their drives only fall in love with the looks of a breed. Rottweilers are great examples…high
rank drive typically and most can’t handle them. So being the educated humans they are…they try to
change an entire breed to fit their needs versus moving on to a Poodle.[/font][font='Verdana','sans-
serif'] [/font]
[font='Verdana','sans-serif']
i mean as far as i know back in the day when dogs were rolling the owner had to be able to grab the
dog and if it bit the owner it was destroyed, so is it a coin flip or do you think even a poorly bread
dog will be true to its owner but not necessarily other people even family?
[/font][font='Verdana','sans-serif']Human aggression would prevent a dog from meeting the standard
in the box…how? Most all dogs will “be true to their owners” the amount of rank drive will dictate if it
will change or not.[/font][font='Verdana','sans-serif'][/font]
[font='Verdana','sans-serif']
Although it would be a shame if these dogs were culled since they are the foundations of many lines,
it is also a shame that the people involved didn't stick to culling dogs with human aggression.
[/font][font='Verdana','sans-serif']Hello…if we “humans” culled human aggressive dogs or those with
potential, canines wouldn’t exist! The shame is people get breeds of dogs they have no business
owning! If you aren’t working or planning on working a “working breed” common sense dictates…you
move on and simply admire it in text, not buy the damn thing and instantly change it for the worse.
I'm a bit more lenient to dogs that redirect their bite when they get that tunnel vision, thinking your
the enemy or just an item in biting reach to release some frustration onto. [/font]
[font='Verdana','sans-serif']LoL You went from “it’s a shame people didn’t stick to culling human
aggression” to “its okay” within a mere couple of sentences. So a human aggressive dog is a cull, yet
a dog that lacks focus and snaps at anything within reach or that touches it-is okay in your world?
[/font][font='Verdana','sans-serif'] [/font]
[font='Verdana','sans-serif']Bullyson was a cur and a maneater, but he threw a lot of great match
dogs and producers with no HA. He is behind a lot of bloodlines. So if it is a genetic thing, wouldn't
there be a higher incidence of manbiters in blood like Midnight Cowboy, Honeybunch (Jeep),
Chinaman (Frisco), etc. ?[/font]
[font='Verdana','sans-serif'][/font][font='Verdana','sans-serif']This is one of the reason this breed is in
the toilet…people talk and clueless about what they’re even talking about. The “manbiter” issue is
beyond most people’s comprehension! You’d have better odds of getting an “ACE” dog with crawling
game parents and grand-parents from PETA, than getting a “manbiter”! A manbiter will bite anything
and everything that moves-obviously the dogs you mentioned weren’t that! Another thing…
Honeybunch isn’t off Bullyson.
I would also never own a bulldog that was HA but would I buy a pup off of one? I would have to
think about it but from what I stated above, it seems to me that the odds of getting one that is HA,
is unlikely... so if it were good blood, I'd probably take my chances.[/font]
[font='Verdana','sans-serif']There you go again, started off stating with they should be culled, it’s
okay, and to now stating you’d actually own off-spring off them. LoL There’s always been human
aggression within the breed and guess what-there always will be. Reason being is; it’s a working
breed and needs to meet those standards, not if it will/would get along with Joe down the road. Pet
owners care about temperament as they typically marry their dogs, sashay them around town and
lack the knowledge to handle most dogs. Given that their main requirement for a dog is sweetness.
[/font]
03-30-2007, 11:15 PM #24
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Quote:

I got a question along those lines, but not quite. (Hope I'm not hijacking.) How do you feel
about dogs that will kill puppies? I'm not talking about big, almost-grown pups, but the little
guys. I read in a book that prior to the evolution of the "bait dog" theory -- and training dogs
by "blooding" them on puppies and kittens -- that many dogmen didn't like dogs that would
go after puppies, as they took it as a sign of cowardice. And that on some yards, the puppies
would run all over and in and out of chain spots, with the adult dogs never harming them. On
the flip side, I was watching a vid on YouTube of these guys showing off some pups, then the
pups ran off, at which point the guy said "I hope they aint goin' over to Xena, cuz she'll mess
them pups up," or something like that.
to me a dog that goes after pups is in the same boat as a manbiter they get the bullet.it is in fact a
sign of weakness and it is not in a bulldogs nature to seek out and kill pups.now sometimes you will
get a new mother that will kill some or all of her pups and that is somewhat a diffrent story but the
still get a closer eye from me.to me if a dog shows a habit of biting people or killing pups that dog
should be destroyed plain and simple.a lot of folks don't thinks so but thats the way i belive and so
far it has done me well over the years.
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03-30-2007, 11:18 PM #25
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Quote:

I'm happy to hear that.
Although it would be a shame if these dogs were culled since they are the foundations of many
lines, it is also a shame that the people involved didn't stick to culling dogs with human aggression.
Some of them weren't outright HA, but Bullyson, Virgil, and Zebo were, according to the stories
written about them. Chinaman was too supposedly, but I don't know what the circumstances were...
I'm a bit more lenient to dogs that redirect their bite when they get that tunnel vision, thinking
your the enemy or just an item in biting reach to release some frustration onto.
(There's a Pit/AmBulldog at the shelter I volunteer for that would do this. She'd see another dog
and start doing that shivering cry-like thing, so anxious to get at it, and would bite my arm. She
never drew blood or anything, in fact, I could barely feel it if I was wearing sleeves. She would also
do this to her leash and anything around her.)
I guess this leads me to question just what is genetic and what is complete chance... Bullyson was a
cur and a maneater, but he threw a lot of great match dogs and producers with no HA. He is behind
a lot of bloodlines. So if it is a genetic thing, wouldn't there be a higher incidence of manbiters in
blood like Midnight Cowboy, Honeybunch (Jeep), Chinaman (Frisco), etc. ?
I would also never own a bulldog that was HA but would I buy a pup off of one? I would have to
think about it but from what I stated above, it seems to me that the odds of getting one that is
HA, is unlikely... so if it were good blood, I'd probably take my chances.
i have to say i agree with Texasbulldogs.now i ain't saying your just agreeing to not cause waves or
anything but i think your kind of confused about your stand on things or maybe not wording it
right.like i said there is a diffrence between a excite biter and a out right manfighter that is just a
danger to anyone including the owner.a exicte biter will nip to get you to turn loose,a out and out
manfighter will bite you just for the hell of it because he likes it big diffrence.
__________________
Last edited by Old Timer; 03-30-2007 at 11:20 PM.
03-31-2007, 12:01 AM #26
Join Date: Aug 2005

CrazyK9 Posts: 673

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texasbulldogs

[font=Verdana','sans-serif]
[/font][font=Verdana','sans-serif]Hello…if we “humans” culled human aggressive dogs or those
with potential, canines wouldn’t exist! The shame is people get breeds of dogs they have no
business owning! If you aren’t working or planning on working a “working breed” common
sense dictates…you move on and simply admire it in text, not buy the damn thing and
instantly change it for the worse.
[/font][font=Verdana','sans-serif][/font]
[font=Verdana','sans-serif]I agree. I hope you don't think I am one of those people.
[/font][font=Verdana','sans-serif]
Quote:

[font=Verdana','sans-serif] [/font]LoL You went from “it’s a shame people didn’t stick to
culling human aggression” to “its okay” within a mere couple of sentences. So a human
aggressive dog is a cull, yet a dog that lacks focus and snaps at anything within reach or that
touches it-is okay in your world? [/font]
Tallie, the mutt I mentioned, should have been put down IMO (but I have no control over the matter unless I
steal her from the shelter and shoot her myself which, sorry, I'm not going to do) because she was
unpredictable. I think aggression comes in different degrees. Some are acceptable and some aren't in my
book and I think everyone's opinion of what is and isn't ok will vary.
[font=Verdana','sans-serif]
Quote:

[font=Verdana','sans-serif] [/font]This is one of the reason this breed is in the toilet…people
talk and clueless about what they’re even talking about. The “manbiter” issue is beyond most
people’s comprehension! You’d have better odds of getting an “ACE” dog with crawling game
parents and grand-parents from PETA, than getting a “manbiter”! A manbiter will bite
anything and everything that moves-obviously the dogs you mentioned weren’t that! Another
thing…Honeybunch isn’t off Bullyson.
[/font]
LOL Wow. Ok, now if that is how you define a true "manbiter" then Bullyson was pretty close to it. At least
seemingly since I wasn't alive to see him.
But would you please explain your point of view on aggression? Honestly. I am asking because I want to
learn from you. I don't want to debate something that I'm not fully understanding, so go ahead teacher! lol
I'm not going to take it personal like a few people here have in the past... although, I must say I'm not
clueless. I know more than the average person does, but, yeah, I've still got a lot to learn and a lot to
experience. I'm only 17, lol, and I have only been aware of gamedogs for the last 3 years, with my only
source of information being the computer.
As for Honeybunch not being off Bullyson, I can believe that. I was just going off her pedigree as recorded
online. Papers were made up left and right back then to keep the blood a secret. Banjo, Tombstone, Eli, and
a few others' peds aren't correct either, supposedly.
[font=Verdana','sans-serif]Who was she off of though?
[/font][font=Verdana','sans-serif]
Quote:

[font=Verdana','sans-serif] [/font]There you go again, started off stating with they should be
culled, it’s okay, and to now stating you’d actually own off-spring off them. LoL There’s
always been human aggression within the breed and guess what-there always will be. Reason
being is; it’s a working breed and needs to meet those standards, not if it will/would get
along with Joe down the road. Pet owners care about temperament as they typically marry
their dogs, sashay them around town and lack the knowledge to handle most dogs. Given
that their main requirement for a dog is sweetness. [/font]
Guarding instinct is one thing but I personally just wouldn't own an unpredictable dog. I also wouldn't want a
dog, hypothectically, who would bite me in the box, when I'm outside shoveling up his shit or feeding him.
Would you?
What I'm curious about is aggression and genetics ...and you didn't seem to touch it. Mind sharing your
thoughts and experiences?
__________________
03-31-2007, 12:13 AM #27
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CrazyK9 Posts: 673

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Quote:

i have to say i agree with Texasbulldogs.now i ain't saying your just agreeing to not cause
waves or anything but i think your kind of confused about your stand on things or maybe not
wording it right.like i said there is a diffrence between a excite biter and a out right
manfighter that is just a danger to anyone including the owner.a exicte biter will nip to get
you to turn loose,a out and out manfighter will bite you just for the hell of it because he likes
it big diffrence.
I'm probably just not getting all my thoughts typed out correctly. I've never been one to explain things
very well lol.
I completely agree with you about an outright manbiter (extreme human aggression) vs excitement biter
(redirected aggression). Like I said in my above post, I think there are degrees of aggression and the
consequences of it depend on the owner and the purpose of the dog, among other factors. If someone can
handle an aggressive dog responsibly, fine. I only will own, breed, and sell what I am comfortable with and
cull the rest.
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03-31-2007, 02:01 PM #28
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Location: Texas
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Quote:

I'm probably just not getting all my thoughts typed out correctly. I've never been one to explain
things very well lol.
I completely agree with you about an outright manbiter (extreme human aggression) vs excitement
biter (redirected aggression). Like I said in my above post, I think there are degrees of aggression
and the consequences of it depend on the owner and the purpose of the dog, among other factors.
If someone can handle an aggressive dog responsibly, fine. I only will own, breed, and sell what I am
comfortable with and cull the rest.
well a excite biter isn't redirecting aggression because he isn't being aggressive,he is just wanting you
let let him go.and as a rule they don't even break the skin sometimes the do but most of the time
they don't they just want to get loose at that other dog and over the years you will learn how to
handle them and know when they are fixin to nip.but like i said myself when it comes to bulldogs i
wouldn't own one that is a outright manbiter that takes joy in biting a person.i can handle aggressive
dogs and guard dogs and such but to me a bulldog that bites you for the hell of it ain't worth
feeding.now on what your selling thats a good start but add to that only breed to better the
breed,always make it better never worse and you will be allright.don't rush into it though since your
only 17 study and get as much hands on experince as you can before you attempt.think of it this way
if you wait 10 years and learn everything you can you will still be under 30 and have a long life with
these dogs ahead of you.time is on your side don't become another BYB that is producing a bunch of
crap become a breeder that actually does the breed a justice.
__________________
03-31-2007, 04:25 PM #29
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Master of Stank Eye
Quote:

to me a dog that goes after pups is in the same boat as a manbiter they get the bullet.
Thanks for the reply!

__________________
Lindsay
***
03-31-2007, 05:42 PM #30
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Quote:

ok i can see the shelter thing to me a dog like that needs to be given a chance but if he still
pulls the same tricks when you get him home for a while then it needs to be culled.i can see
a excite biter because they nip to get you to turn loose of em.the children i am having
problems with that,i could understand if they children were hitting the dog or kicking it or
something cause it to go in defense mode but i wouldn't give it a chance if it just started
biting because some kids circled the dog.kids do that all the time and a dog shouldn't bite a
child just for that reason.hell i know my kids used to gang up on my dogs all the time and
they loved it,the more the merrier for them but they had rock solid temperments.biters are
touchy issues for me because i won't will not be to quick to give a biter any chance.now like
my new rotties who are trained for this work i will tolerate them.but they are still rock solid
around my grandkids and they are even trustworthy around strangers as long as i am there.
i agree with this.....
04-01-2007, 01:12 AM #31
Join Date: Aug 2005

CrazyK9 Posts: 673

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Quote:

well a excite biter isn't redirecting aggression because he isn't being aggressive,he is just
wanting you let let him go.and as a rule they don't even break the skin sometimes the do but
most of the time they don't they just want to get loose at that other dog and over the years
you will learn how to handle them and know when they are fixin to nip.but like i said myself
when it comes to bulldogs i wouldn't own one that is a outright manbiter that takes joy in
biting a person.i can handle aggressive dogs and guard dogs and such but to me a bulldog
that bites you for the hell of it ain't worth feeding.now on what your selling thats a good start
but add to that only breed to better the breed,always make it better never worse and you
will be allright.don't rush into it though since your only 17 study and get as much hands on
experince as you can before you attempt.think of it this way if you wait 10 years and learn
everything you can you will still be under 30 and have a long life with these dogs ahead of
you.time is on your side don't become another BYB that is producing a bunch of crap become
a breeder that actually does the breed a justice.
I understand what you're saying, but a nip to let him go is still frustration being redirected at you through a
bite... I suppose it isn't exactly "aggression" but what would you call it? I guess the term is kind of
decieving, but that is always what I've called it.
Trust me, I'm not jumping into things at all. In 9 months or so I'll be starting my "apprenticeship" and get
some hands on experience. My mentor will let me know when I'm ready to go off on my own.
__________________
04-01-2007, 01:22 AM #32
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I said what I had to say in a PM. However I will attempt to show you to more light when we meet in
person. I will stay a month. I have a home just south of the bridge and one just a few hours south of
that.
04-02-2007, 01:03 PM #33

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,000
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Quote:

I understand what you're saying, but a nip to let him go is still frustration being redirected at you
through a bite... I suppose it isn't exactly "aggression" but what would you call it? I guess the term
is kind of decieving, but that is always what I've called it.
Trust me, I'm not jumping into things at all. In 9 months or so I'll be starting my "apprenticeship"
and get some hands on experience. My mentor will let me know when I'm ready to go off on my
own.
yeah it can be very frustrating.but it is not because they are being mean or anything like that it is
just they want so bad to get at that dog they nip you to say hey damn it let me go.but the more
time you spend around these dogs and get hands on with them you will be quicker to see when they
are going to do this and you can handle them without even getting a nip.i am very glad to hear you
found a mentor and from what i read by Attilla i have a hunch it might be him.if so your in good
hands he is very wise with this breed and he is honest as they come.he has my respect as he has
many others.i wish you the best of luck in your journey it is going to be a long one but well worth it.
__________________
04-02-2007, 03:04 PM #34
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No, it's nobody on this board, but thank you for your blessing. I'm not sure who Attila was talking to
honestly... I only wish it was me, lol.
__________________
04-02-2007, 03:16 PM #35
Join Date: Feb 2007

Posts: 256

Star Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Attila Magyar

I said what I had to say in a PM. However I will attempt to show you to more light when we
meet in person. I will stay a month. I have a home just south of the bridge and one just a
few hours south of that.
yes you did say what you had to in pm and it was very usefull info so again thanx ... and i look
forward to meeting and having some light shed on this issue im sure it will be a good time ill bring
the beer you bring some good stories and we can survey some land lol good times ill see you then
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04-02-2007, 04:33 PM #36
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Here we go again with the old "man-biters were culled" myth. Not only was it rare in earlier times to
cull a man-biter if it could prove its worth in the pit or brood pen, but prior to the 20th century,
fighting dogs were often purposefully unsocialized and desensitized in attempts to make them meaner
and more aggressive in the box! It was common to keep a dog locked inside a dark room devoid of
sensual stimuli for up to two weeks at a time, cutting off all human contact aside from the handler.
The old legend about pitdogs "turning on their owners" may have a slight basis in truth, considering
how these animals were treated long ago, but even back in those days, reports indicate that it was a
rare occurrence.
The willingness -or reluctance- of a dog (of any breed) to bite can almost always be attributed to the
environment in which it lives, as opposed to any genetic fault. Most "man-biters" are born of
ignorance and carelessness.
Quote:

to me a dog that goes after pups is in the same boat as a manbiter they get the bullet.it is in
fact a sign of weakness and it is not in a bulldogs nature to seek out and kill pups.now
sometimes you will get a new mother that will kill some or all of her pups and that is
somewhat a diffrent story but the still get a closer eye from me.to me if a dog shows a habit
of biting people or killing pups that dog should be destroyed plain and simple.a lot of folks
don't thinks so but thats the way i belive and so far it has done me well over the years.
Well, you're certainly entitled to believe what you will, but when the 200-year ancestry of a dog
dictates a tendency toward dog aggression, it's certainly within the realm of logic and reason to
expect such a dog to possess the inclination to kill a pup.
How about rats? Or cats, squirrells, rabbits -any other small furry creature? Since when is a highly
developed prey drive a sign of weakness in a bulldog?
Last edited by Rockstar; 04-02-2007 at 04:36 PM.
04-02-2007, 05:40 PM #37
Join Date: Feb 2007

Location: Texas
Posts: 1,000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockstar
Well, you're certainly entitled to believe what you will, but when the 200-year ancestry of a
dog dictates a tendency toward dog aggression, it's certainly within the realm of logic and
reason to expect such a dog to possess the inclination to kill a pup.
How about rats? Or cats, squirrells, rabbits -any other small furry creature? Since when is a
highly developed prey drive a sign of weakness in a bulldog?
there is a diffrence between DA and a dog killing pups.a good bulldog with a good head on it's
shoulders wouldn't dream of going after pups.so i don't know where you got that from but it is
strange.a dog that goes after and kills pups will as a rule cur out in the pit.just like a bully in school
they are good at picking on the little kids but when it comes to their own they just can't stand the
line.not only is it a sign of weakness but mental unstability and you talk to any serious dogman and
you will be told the same thing.now rats,cats,squirrells,rabbits and the like is a diffrent story but
putting them creatures in the same boat as a litter of pups just ain't the same thing.from what i
gather you know quite a bit about these animals so i am very surprised that you would try and justify
a dog that would kill pups because you can go back as long as you want and they were never
tolerated at least not by any good dogman.
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04-02-2007, 09:19 PM #38
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I'm not sure as to how you define "serious dogman," Mr. Old Timer, but those I associate with have
names such as Bailey, Garner, Williams, Shipley, Alexander, Kirkland, Waccamaw, Faron, Holcomb,
Eppinette, Tant, Burns, Davis, and Jackson, to name a few; and not only do these people expect a
loose pup to get killed on their yards, some of them have bred/owned dogs that would just as soon
take your leg off as look at you.
Last edited by Rockstar; 04-02-2007 at 09:22 PM.
04-02-2007, 09:35 PM #39
Join Date: Feb 2007

Location: Texas
Posts: 1,000
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Quote:

I'm not sure as to how you define "serious dogman," Mr. Old Timer, but those I associate
with have names such as Bailey, Garner, Williams, Shipley, Alexander, Kirkland, Waccamaw,
Faron, Holcomb, Eppinette, Tant, Burns, Davis, and Jackson, to name a few; and not only do
these people expect a loose pup to get killed on their yards, some of them have bred/owned
dogs that would just as soon take your leg off as look at you.
so i guess the name dropping is supposed to impress me.son i know each of them as well as well as
many more.the name dropping does not impress me one bit,but then again i can go into to other
names as well like carver,boudreaux,kinard,nelson,lewis,fife,mayfield ,colby,heinzel,stratton,ga
trahan,patrick, and the list goes on and on but i don't want to get in a pissing match with you.you
proved your ignorance already.and as far as the pups go there is a diffrence between a accidental
killing and owning a dog that seeks one out but then again your such a mover and shaker in the
breed you would know that,you wouldn't need a old internet faker like me to tell you that.
__________________
04-02-2007, 10:08 PM #40
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First off, I'm not your son. Secondly, most who know me will tell you that I really don't give a fat
froggie's ass what people think of me. The last thing in this world I care about is impressing you.
You're going on about how "serious dogmen" won't tolerate a dog that kills pups, and I'm simply
telling you YOU'RE WRONG. You suggested that if I talk to any of these "serious dogmen" they would
tell me "a dog that goes after and kills pups will as a rule cur out in the pit.just like a bully in school
they are good at picking on the little kids but when it comes to their own they just can't stand the
line.not only is it a sign of weakness but mental unstability." Well guess what? Nobody is telling me
that but you. You know why? Because it's one of the dumbest philosophies ever spewed forth.
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04-03-2007, 12:04 AM #41
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Lord of Truth & Equality
Quote:

Quote:

to me a dog that goes after pups is in the same boat as a manbiter they get the
bullet.
Thanks for the reply!
Quote:

@#$%#@ (about same topic)
Quote:

@#$%#@(about same topic)
Excuse me, i believe there is a difference between a dog that kills pups because it wants to kill PUPS
and one that kills pups because it has no clue they are "little thingies" of its own kind. Many kennel
dogs never really get to understand what they are looking at. They only know prey drive (among
other things).
A human aggressive dog (IMHO) is a dog that has complete instruction and direction that such HA
tendencies are unwanted AND still actively seeks to bite a humans (similar to prey).
__________________
If you advertise multiple breedings and sell to anyone with $, you are a puppy peddler
regardless of your name!
I KISS NO ASS & TELL NO TALES
I'm not in it to become just a dogman; I'm in it to become a BULLDOGMAN!
My stance: I oppose & abhor all forms of animal cruelty and embrace professional dog
matching.
If you treat a Bulldog as its master it'll slave for U but if you treat it as its friend, it'll die for
U!
If you do not agree with my opinion, at least defend my right to have one.
Last edited by Rocky's Human; 04-03-2007 at 12:11 AM.
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04-03-2007, 12:15 AM #42
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We have a few bitches who will surely snag up any pups within reach, almost all our males would do
the same. These same bitches, have no problem with their own pups however. I do not know if I
would tolerate one who kills her own pups out of aggression, before the age of weaning. Do animals
in the wild, not kill "rival" packs offspring, so as to solitify their own breeding future?
__________________
"Split your lungs with blood and thunder when you see the white whale. .....
Aim directly for his F'ing brow, and look him straight in the eye."
04-03-2007, 12:28 AM #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 14rock

We have a few bitches who will surely snag up any pups within reach, almost all our males
would do the same. These same bitches, have no problem with their own pups however. I do
not know if I would tolerate one who kills her own pups out of aggression, before the age of
weaning. Do animals in the wild, not kill "rival" packs offspring, so as to solitify their own
breeding future?
Yes, I can see a bitch killing pups off other bitches (due to genetic link to that wild canine ancestor).
Bitches that kill their pups (were awake to see pups come out of her) however, lean more toward
abomination than breed improvement. These bitches have something wrong in their nature that
cannot be compensated by any level of ability; they should not be bred. Instead, if gifted, breed to
sibblings or recreate breeding if possible.
Of course, first time mothers may be an exception to the rule.

__________________
If you advertise multiple breedings and sell to anyone with $, you are a puppy peddler
regardless of your name!
I KISS NO ASS & TELL NO TALES
I'm not in it to become just a dogman; I'm in it to become a BULLDOGMAN!
My stance: I oppose & abhor all forms of animal cruelty and embrace professional dog
matching.
If you treat a Bulldog as its master it'll slave for U but if you treat it as its friend, it'll die for
U!
If you do not agree with my opinion, at least defend my right to have one.
04-03-2007, 02:00 AM #44
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Star Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocky's Human

Yes, I can see a bitch killing pups off other bitches (due to genetic link to that wild canine
ancestor). Bitches that kill their pups (were awake to see pups come out of her) however,
lean more toward abomination than breed improvement. These bitches have something wrong
in their nature that cannot be compensated by any level of ability; they should not be bred.
Instead, if gifted, breed to sibblings or recreate breeding if possible.
Of course, first time mothers may be an exception to the rule.
X2 I totally agree.
__________________
04-03-2007, 02:03 PM #45
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Quote:

Excuse me, i believe there is a difference between a dog that kills pups because it wants to
kill PUPS and one that kills pups because it has no clue they are "little thingies" of its own
kind. Many kennel dogs never really get to understand what they are looking at. They only
know prey drive (among other things).
A human aggressive dog (IMHO) is a dog that has complete instruction and direction that
such HA tendencies are unwanted AND still actively seeks to bite a humans (similar to prey).
thats what i have been trying to say.there is a diffrence between a accidental killing where a pup got
loose and got killed,and a dog who seeks out pups just to kill them.you will be hard pressed to find a
dogman that will tolerate a dog that will seek out pups and kill them nd the same goes for bitches
who will kill their own litters.kind of puts a damper on your breedeing program.it really does surprise
me that rockstar advocates owning and keeping a human aggressive dog and a dog that will kill pups
and tries to say any serious dogman would do so.from what i gather he is one of the more knowing
on this site and he should know better.bottom line in my yard a dog that likes to kill pups and bite
humans gets the bullet plain and simple anyone who would own a dog that does these things is a
very irresponsable owner in my opinion.
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04-03-2007, 02:39 PM #46
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I smell a reply....
04-03-2007, 02:58 PM #47
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I absolutely do NOT advocate owning a human aggressive dog!!! I just feel it's dangerous to base the
idea of a breed's temperament on inaccuracies. There are far too many people who believe the
nonsense that manbiters were strictly culled throughout the history of the APBT, resulting in some
"super dog" that will never bite for any reason, unless it happens to be "mentally unstable," when in
fact a bulldog will bite for the same reasons as any other breed of dog. Mom and Pop are always so
shocked when little Timmy gets bit while yanking on the family dog's tail. The dog gets euthanized for
"having something wrong with its head," and another "pit bull attack" makes the headlines.
In regard to pup-killers: I would find it quite irresponsible, TO SAY THE LEAST, to let a pup run
around with gamedogs out of some ridiculous notion that gamedogs don't kill pups; that such a trait
is only exhibited by unstable curs.
Fucking insane.
04-03-2007, 04:10 PM #48
Phebes Posts: n/a

Guest
Quote:

I absolutely do NOT advocate owning a human aggressive dog!!! I just feel it's dangerous to
base the idea of a breed's temperament on inaccuracies. There are far too many people who
believe the nonsense that manbiters were strictly culled throughout the history of the APBT,
resulting in some "super dog" that will never bite for any reason, unless it happens to be
"mentally unstable," when in fact a bulldog will bite for the same reasons as any other breed
of dog. Mom and Pop are always so shocked when little Timmy gets bit while yanking on the
family dog's tail. The dog gets euthanized for "having something wrong with its head," and
another "pit bull attack" makes the headlines.
In regard to pup-killers: I would find it quite irresponsible, TO SAY THE LEAST, to let a pup
run around with gamedogs out of some ridiculous notion that gamedogs don't kill pups; that
such a trait is only exhibited by unstable curs.
Fucking insane.
Great reply!
04-03-2007, 05:11 PM #49
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Wow there is nothing like a clash of the knowing to be given the opportunity to learn yet more good
stuff. In the research I have done game dogs that bit people were not necessarily culled, not sure
why but it clearly states there were many exceptions to this "line" drawn in the sand. So this is a
myth...even back in the day.
I think it is a great point from Rockstar that no matter how game a dog is, it is still just a dog, and I
think I understood from what he was saying that some times a dog just acts like the animal it
is...love the example of Timmy pulling on the family dogs tail....everyone knows that there are some
dogs regardless of breed that will just roll over and take this, and there are other dogs (with sharper
temperments) that will not.
I think Old Timer is referring to a dog that aggressively pursues puppies, like a cat pursues
mice...meaning puppies are a distinct entity that the dog recognizes as some thing to kill...if this is
what he means, yes this dog is a little wackey. But a game dog that kills a pup, or even a dog your
not sure is game, but you are sure is DA....well I just can't see it. My Am Staff is DA, I'm sure she
would attack another dog regardless of the dogs age, now she seems to be much more playfull with
small animals. She will bat them around and push them with her nose....she does this with my
ferrets....but she is extremely DA and I would never trust her around another dog, pup or not, and
IMO putting her down would be punishing her for being what she is.
__________________
~~~~~ MyDawgs~~~~~
Last edited by mydawgs; 04-03-2007 at 05:18 PM.
04-03-2007, 07:15 PM #50
Join Date: Feb 2007

Location: Texas
Posts: 1,000
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Old Timer Thanks: 0
Quote:

I absolutely do NOT advocate owning a human aggressive dog!!! I just feel it's dangerous to
base the idea of a breed's temperament on inaccuracies. There are far too many people who
believe the nonsense that manbiters were strictly culled throughout the history of the APBT,
resulting in some "super dog" that will never bite for any reason, unless it happens to be
"mentally unstable," when in fact a bulldog will bite for the same reasons as any other breed
of dog. Mom and Pop are always so shocked when little Timmy gets bit while yanking on the
family dog's tail. The dog gets euthanized for "having something wrong with its head," and
another "pit bull attack" makes the headlines.
In regard to pup-killers: I would find it quite irresponsible, TO SAY THE LEAST, to let a pup
run around with gamedogs out of some ridiculous notion that gamedogs don't kill pups; that
such a trait is only exhibited by unstable curs.
Fucking insane.
man biters were strictly culled by breeders,how on earth do you think we now have a dog with THE
most stable temperment amongst dogs not by breeding crazies to crazies but BEST TO BEST and why
do you think there is so many problems with HA dogs today they breed for what was culled back in
my day.you said you know of dogmen that have kept dogs that would take your leg off as soon as
look at you you never said it was wrong and they way you stated it was like it was acceptable or you
would tolerate it when in fact it is not acceptable and should never be tolerated.so if you don't want
strait forward anwsers then make sure what you put down leaves no open questions.but when it
comes to recent history manbiters were strictly culled for the simple and wise fact that they were a
liabilty to own the entire point of owning game dogs and breeding litters were to match them and get
the best dogs you could and if you had a dog that would go into the other handler or the ref you
wouldn't get to far in the game.and i really don't like the fact that you are lumping a dog biting out
of defense or pain to a dog that attacks just for fun.there is a big diffrence when a dog bites you
because your pulling on it's tail or poking it in the eye and a dog who just bites you for walking by
AND YOU KNOW IT so don't go trying to lump all that mess ogether.the reason so many pitbull
attacks in the headlines is because people are breeding man fighters and the reason why you didn't
hear of it many years ago was one they were not popular,2 they were not breeding man biters.no
body ever said the bulldog was a super dog that would never bite,but in all my years i have never
had one dog that has bit a person,and the reason why if they showed the slightest sign they got
culled regardless of how game they were PERIOD.i have had
children,nieces,nephews,grandchildren,friends children all play with my dogs including pulling on the
ears and tails and stuff that little children do and never had a single incident.i stand by my remark
that you tolerate a manbiter because thats how you come across to me and if you don't tolerate it
you are damn leiniete about it wich as a responsable owner you shouldn't be either,if you really cared
about the betterment of the breed and trying to get them back on track you wouldn't tolerate it on
any degeree.now onto the pup killers i agree it is very irresponsable to let them run loose but it is
just as bad to own a dog that seeks them out and kills them.like i said there is a diffence in a
accidental kennel fight that results in a pup getting killed,and a crazie that just seeks them out and
kills them.and i never said gamedogs didn't kill pups i said your good gamedogs do not kill
pups,game dogs with a good head on their shoulders don't bother pups because they have bigger fish
to fry.
__________________
04-03-2007, 07:17 PM #51
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Location: Texas
Posts: 1,000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mydawgs
I think Old Timer is referring to a dog that aggressively pursues puppies, like a cat pursues
mice...meaning puppies are a distinct entity that the dog recognizes as some thing to kill...if
this is what he means, yes this dog is a little wackey.
yes this is what i mean.

__________________
04-04-2007, 01:48 AM #52
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Quote:

man biters were strictly culled by breeders...
Show me evidence of one instance where a well-known dogman culled a manbiter that was a winning
pitdog or producer, or even showed potential in either area. There is no evidence to suggest such
dogs were regularly culled, however, there is ample evidence to suggest the contrary:
Gr. Ch. Gambler's Virgil - while in a rage, tried to bite the Gambler, and actually tore the shirt off
of Gambler's back as he tried to get away from him. Gambler thought very seriously about putting
the dog down, but instead decided to roll him. Evidently he liked what he saw and by the tender age
of just over 18 months, Virgil became a 1X winner.
Adams' Gr. Ch. Zebo ROM - attacked Mr. Adams' son and nearly took his son's ear off. After the
request of Mr. Adams' wife, Zebo was sold again, this time to Mr. Johnson who fought him twice
more.
Loposay's Buster ROM - The late Barney Fife and his brother, Matt, went traveling through North
Carolina to visit Mrs. Loposay and then go to the Fork Farm, to see Mr. Grady Cummings. Upon
arrival to Mrs. Loposay's, they were able to see the great producer Buster, who made an attempt to
bite both of them.
Stepp's Gr. Ch. Angus - his only downfall was he was a man-biter, such as many of the best-to-be
were ie; Gr Ch Art (ROM), Gr Ch Zebo (ROM), Dbl Gr Ch Tornado, Ch Honeybunch (ROM), and
Ch Yellow John (ROM) just to name a few...
Indian Bolio ROM - would scream with rage until he was released into the other dog. Occasionally,
he would bite you if not released quick enough.
...and Bullyson
...and Chinaman
...and so on.
Earl Tudor's wife was bitten so many times by Earl's dogs that her legs were covered in scars. When
the issue was raised regarding the temperament of the Tudor dogs, Earl replied, "If you're dumb
enough to get bit by one of my dogs, that's your fault!"
An uncle of mine was farmed some brood dogs by David Tant. One day my uncle went to take one of
these dogs outside the house when it "chewed him from wrist to elbow." Tant refused to do anything
about it. My uncle wanted to return the dog, but Tant told him that if he returned that one, he would
have to return the others as well. Since the dogs carried a high value in both the pit and brood pen,
they stayed where they were. The idea of culling was, in Tant's words, "out of the question."
Upon visiting Tant's yard, one would find that many of his dogs would either try to hide from you, or
try to eat you.
Here is a match report from the 70's; note the 4th:

...just one of many where similar incidents occurred.
Need I continue?
And just because I post the truth, doesn't mean I condone it, no more than any history text book
condones war, or slavery, or genocide.
Last edited by Rockstar; 04-04-2007 at 01:56 AM.
04-04-2007, 05:16 AM #53
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I can't speak for any one but me. I will shoot any dog that so much as growls at me, some kid or
anything that is not a threat. I will also put down a dog that preys on puppies. I am not tollerant of
that crap, my grandfathers were not either. They had gotten dogs like that before and I remember
the solution very well. If it was one of my dogs it was my responsibility to do the task. And it was
indeed done. Any thing less is unacceptable. I don't give a shit what that dog does as far as work
goes.
04-04-2007, 02:24 PM #54
Join Date: Oct 2005

Location: North Shore, Boston, MA.
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Quote:

by meerly "breeding for looks", i agree, something gets lost, as far as a dog's temperment goes, so,
yes, i agree on this.
and personally, if a dog posesses "some true gamegame dog blood" in it, my feeling is, that wouldn't
necessarliy dictate nor decide, whether or not it would "turn" on its owner or not. IMO, too many
other factors to consider, as well, as, this, alone, would not necessarily dictate if a dog is going to
bite or not. every dog is different, just as every situation is, with each posessing its/their own set of
circumstances. so, i couldn't/wouldn't generalize here, or, make an assumption regarding this. one
might feel posessing "gameness" or having "game blood" in their dog will rid or alleviate thier dog of
any "man biting qualities", but to assume so, i personally would not do. again, every dog, and every
situation is different, and should be evaluated and dealt with accordinally.
it seems the opinions regarding this particular thread are wide and varied, and i respect everyone's
POV regarding this thread, and also, the level of decency, that's been maintained throughout it.
interesting thread and discussion.
Last edited by Suki; 04-04-2007 at 05:58 PM.
04-04-2007, 07:18 PM #55
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Super Member
Ok, I'm only asking because I'm one of the less educated ones here but weren't the 70's where the
APBT started to go down hill as far as man biters or was it earlier?
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04-04-2007, 08:13 PM #56
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The number of "man-biters" rose as the number of these dogs increased, and fell into the hands of
those who intentionally bred them to be this way. There have always been rare cases of man-biters in
this breed, and any other breed. The only diffrence is, unless the dog is an "ace" why waste your
time with one who will bite you, when you have 30 others who wont? The same holds true today, as
it did in the 20's. The diffrence is unstable mutts, backyard bred mongrels, tortured dogs, and idiotic
owners can buy a "pit" out of any classifieds section across the country-and many of them do.
Rockstar is correct, no matter how painful it is to admit it, not all breeders culled human-aggression-
specifically those running in the most competitive lane of the sport. However, I've found nearly all
dogmen, will SAY they would cull an ace, provided they are not in the upper echelon on the sport.
Many of these men, stick by their words, and will cull HA dogs. Many of them, would change their
tune if push came to shove. Personally, it is not in our best intrests to keep these poor specimins of
the breed around, and they are culled here.
Most specimins of this breed which will bite, do so not because of breeding, but because of how they
were raised. There are two opposite ends of the spectrum, both of which screw up potentially good
dogs. The first, is treating a dog like shit, unsocialized and rewarding aggressive behavior to try and
bring that to the forefront out of fear. The second, is elevating the dog to a status higher then
people, allowing it to think it has the right to threaten people, a perfect example of this is obvious in
another ongoing thread. If left alone, and I mean ALONE most of these dogs would be fine. If put on
a chain and forgotten about, not teased, not abused, 99% of these animals would still not bite a
person unless threatened. We have dogs I imagine a trespassing stranger could beat to within an inch
of their lives, and then hook them up to a lead, and they would walk up and jump into the passenger
seat of the thieves vehicle with their tails wagging.
You must also remember, a man-biter is almost taboo in this breed. It's something most examples
don't exhibit, and it completely out of the "norm". To have a great dog, just means you have a great
dog. If you have a great dog, with a quirky personality and some exagerated stories, people will
remember it unfortunately. In the hands of some of those people, a dog to remember out of their
yard, is more important then the breeds overall reputation.
__________________
"Split your lungs with blood and thunder when you see the white whale. .....
Aim directly for his F'ing brow, and look him straight in the eye."
04-04-2007, 08:15 PM #57
Join Date: Feb 2007

Posts: 256

Star Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by 14rock

The number of "man-biters" rose as the number of these dogs increased, and fell into the
hands of those who intentionally bred them to be this way. There have always been rare
cases of man-biters in this breed, and any other breed. The only diffrence is, unless the dog
is an "ace" why waste your time with one who will bite you, when you have 30 others who
wont? The same holds true today, as it did in the 20's. The diffrence is unstable mutts,
backyard bred mongrels, tortured dogs, and idiotic owners can buy a "pit" out of any
classifieds section across the country-and many of them do.
Rockstar is correct, no matter how painful it is to admit it, not all breeders culled human-
aggression-specifically those running in the most competitive lane of the sport. However, I've
found nearly all dogmen, will SAY they would cull an ace, provided they are not in the upper
echelon on the sport. Many of these men, stick by their words, and will cull HA dogs. Many of
them, would change their tune if push came to shove. Personally, it is not in our best intrests
to keep these poor specimins of the breed around, and they are culled here.
Most specimins of this breed which will bite, do so not because of breeding, but because of
how they were raised. There are two opposite ends of the spectrum, both of which screw up
potentially good dogs. The first, is treating a dog like shit, unsocialized and rewarding
aggressive behavior to try and bring that to the forefront out of fear. The second, is elevating
the dog to a status higher then people, allowing it to think it has the right to threaten people,
a perfect example of this is obvious in another ongoing thread. If left alone, and I mean
ALONE most of these dogs would be fine. If put on a chain and forgotten about, not teased,
not abused, 99% of these animals would still not bite a person unless threatened. We have
dogs I imagine a trespassing stranger could beat to within an inch of their lives, and then
hook them up to a lead, and they would walk up and jump into the passenger seat of the
thieves vehicle with their tails wagging.
You must also remember, a man-biter is almost taboo in this breed. It's something most
examples don't exhibit, and it completely out of the "norm". To have a great dog, just means
you have a great dog. If you have a great dog, with a quirky personality and some
exagerated stories, people will remember it unfortunately. In the hands of some of those
people, a dog to remember out of their yard, is more important then the breeds overall
reputation.
great stuff well worded...

__________________
04-04-2007, 08:30 PM #58

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,000
Old Timer Thanks: 0
Quote:

Show me evidence of one instance where a well-known dogman culled a manbiter that was a
winning pitdog or producer, or even showed potential in either area. There is no evidence to
suggest such dogs were regularly culled, however, there is ample evidence to suggest the
contrary:
Gr. Ch. Gambler's Virgil - while in a rage, tried to bite the Gambler, and actually tore the
shirt off of Gambler's back as he tried to get away from him. Gambler thought very seriously
about putting the dog down, but instead decided to roll him. Evidently he liked what he saw
and by the tender age of just over 18 months, Virgil became a 1X winner.
Adams' Gr. Ch. Zebo ROM - attacked Mr. Adams' son and nearly took his son's ear off. After
the request of Mr. Adams' wife, Zebo was sold again, this time to Mr. Johnson who fought
him twice more.
Loposay's Buster ROM - The late Barney Fife and his brother, Matt, went traveling through
North Carolina to visit Mrs. Loposay and then go to the Fork Farm, to see Mr. Grady
Cummings. Upon arrival to Mrs. Loposay's, they were able to see the great producer Buster,
who made an attempt to bite both of them.
Stepp's Gr. Ch. Angus - his only downfall was he was a man-biter, such as many of the
best-to-be were ie; Gr Ch Art (ROM), Gr Ch Zebo (ROM), Dbl Gr Ch Tornado, Ch
Honeybunch (ROM), and Ch Yellow John (ROM) just to name a few...
Indian Bolio ROM - would scream with rage until he was released into the other dog.
Occasionally, he would bite you if not released quick enough.
...and Bullyson
...and Chinaman
...and so on.
Earl Tudor's wife was bitten so many times by Earl's dogs that her legs were covered in scars.
When the issue was raised regarding the temperament of the Tudor dogs, Earl replied, "If
you're dumb enough to get bit by one of my dogs, that's your fault!"
An uncle of mine was farmed some brood dogs by David Tant. One day my uncle went to
take one of these dogs outside the house when it "chewed him from wrist to elbow." Tant
refused to do anything about it. My uncle wanted to return the dog, but Tant told him that if
he returned that one, he would have to return the others as well. Since the dogs carried a
high value in both the pit and brood pen, they stayed where they were. The idea of culling
was, in Tant's words, "out of the question."
Upon visiting Tant's yard, one would find that many of his dogs would either try to hide from
you, or try to eat you.
Here is a match report from the 70's; note the 4th:

...just one of many where similar incidents occurred.
Need I continue?
And just because I post the truth, doesn't mean I condone it, no more than any history text
book condones war, or slavery, or genocide.
you are still very much surprising me.you say you very knowing in the breed yet it is unclear as to
why you think it is the norm that these men owned manfighters.it is just common sense that if your
in a box with a dog you CAN NOT HAVE A MANFIGHTER it is just stupid.there has been incidents but
they are not the norm.what is the point of owning a dog that is going to do what it did to maloney,i
was present at the match and seen first hand what happened and there was some very angry people
there when it did happen.taking a manfighter to the pit is like cleaning a pistol with a round in the
chamber your looking for trouble and if you do it often enough your going to find it.now i give you a
quote from a well respected site about these dogs.
''Belive it or not,APBT's are actually very loving dogs.they have to be because if they are in a scrap
the owner should be able to calm them down quickly and easily.also during the dog fights of the
middle ages,the people were in the ring with the dogs and if a dog got injured,it was imideately
removed and multiple people treated it's injuries like a top of the line trauma center.therefor the
APBT could NOT be human aggressive in any way since it was handled by so many people.if it showed
any aggression towards humans,it was culled imideatley.so it could never enter a breeding program.''
now you want evidence of a respected dogman who culled manfighters well your talking to him
boy.and i don't give a shit how game the dog was if it was a manfighter it was culled and never got
the chance to prove the producing value because the dog is worthless.if you don't think i am high
and mighty enough then maybe you think the folks who made the breed would be and the rock solid
temperment that the PROPERLY bred animals have prove that.like i said that was achived by breeding
best to best not worst to worst.and again you can thumb through any book about the breed and read
the same you don't have to even take my word for it.but i have said my peace all i care to speak on
this topic,you now know my views and know i won't be budged on something i know is right.so i am
done with it.but in case you didn't get it,IF A DOG SHOWS ANY SIGN OF WANTING TO FIGHT A
HUMAN ON MY YARD IT GETS THE BULLET.SOME SAY THAT IS IRRESPONSABLE AND I LIKE TO KILL
DOGS,BUT I CALL IT BEING A RESPONSABLE KEEPER OF THESE FINE ANIMALS.
__________________
04-04-2007, 09:53 PM #59
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OldTimer what you do and what you have said is quite worthy of admiration and appreciation from
those of us who look to "the keepers of the breed" to keep the APBT true to form so some day we
will be able to show our kids and grandkids this truely amazing animal, the way it was meant to be
shown. From what I can gather you folks that are in the know are violently agreeing......culling
manfighters was a common practice but not practiced by all. Some of the folks that continued to
work manfighters were notorius.
In the end they were just dogs that were either good representations of the breed or not, some had
exceptional talent.
I for one have found this thread amazing and thank you, Rockstar, 14 and Atilla for sharing your
insight and knowledge......very cool!!!!!!!
__________________
~~~~~ MyDawgs~~~~~
04-04-2007, 09:57 PM #60
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Location: Texas
Posts: 1,000
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has been a nice debate.and i do want everyone to know i have nothing against rockstar even though
at times it might sound that way.in fact it is to the contrary i think he has immense knowledge when
it comes to these animals and thats what counts he knows what he is doing with the dogs and you
can tell that but manfighters are a very touchy subject for me and i am very firm on where i stand
on it.but like i said i have spoken my peace on that subject and everyone knows where i stand.
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04-05-2007, 07:17 AM #61
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Quote:

has been a nice debate.and i do want everyone to know i have nothing against rockstar even
though at times it might sound that way.in fact it is to the contrary i think he has immense
knowledge when it comes to these animals and thats what counts he knows what he is doing
with the dogs and you can tell that but manfighters are a very touchy subject for me and i
am very firm on where i stand on it.but like i said i have spoken my peace on that subject
and everyone knows where i stand.
Old Timer you are 100 % R I G H T. What tell us all this true Storys from Rockstar? 1.) Some
dogmen made mistakes 2.) Some dogmen made big mistakes. Many on here know Iam not a cull-
Friend but in this case if it comes to true manfighter...no mercy! My dogs nearly killed each other,
sometimes I jumped like a Pitdog between them....sometimes deep in the night , in the black
darkness out there in the woods they grabbed a badger...and I jumped between hem to rescue the
poor boy. I was afraid...but not about my dogs...about the badger teeth! Not one time the teeth of
my dogs touched me. From my point of view, even the best Bulldog should get a Bullet if he really
tend to be a manfighter...in this case, again its a unforgivable fault.
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04-05-2007, 01:38 PM #62
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Star Member
the only question i have is that IF manfighters are so regularly culled by dogmen, why are there still
so many manfighters that need to be culled (so much so that everyone wants to talk about the
manfighters they've culled)? i'm only asking here about dogs bred within the gamedog world - not
the dubious "pits" out of the classifieds. it sounds as though there are still a lot of HA dogs being born
on the yards of people who are breeding best to best for the most stable temperament ever. if it is
something people are regularly dealing with, then it hasn't been eliminated by years of careful
breeding, nor does it sound like a rare genetic mutation. i mean, what are the percentages we're
talking here of HA dogs that pop up in a carefully controlled gene pool?
__________________
04-05-2007, 03:33 PM #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by idgie

the only question i have is that IF manfighters are so regularly culled by dogmen, why are
there still so many manfighters that need to be culled (so much so that everyone wants to
talk about the manfighters they've culled)? i'm only asking here about dogs bred within the
gamedog world - not the dubious "pits" out of the classifieds. it sounds as though there are
still a lot of HA dogs being born on the yards of people who are breeding best to best for the
most stable temperament ever. if it is something people are regularly dealing with, then it
hasn't been eliminated by years of careful breeding, nor does it sound like a rare genetic
mutation. i mean, what are the percentages we're talking here of HA dogs that pop up
in a carefully controlled gene pool?
Well statistically speaking it means there are enough HA dogs in that "carefully controlled gene pool"
to be noticed.....by definition then a HA dog is not a "wild point" in this gene pool, it is some what
regular to even be noticed, and documented. Interesting point. Makes one think what 14 said has
merit...doggers will readily admit they practice culling manfighters, but maybe fewer do than those
that say they do...hhhmmmmmmmmm?????
__________________
~~~~~ MyDawgs~~~~~
04-05-2007, 08:22 PM #64
Join Date: Feb 2007

Location: Texas
Posts: 1,000
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Gamebred
Quote:

mutation. i mean, what are the percentages we're talking here of HA dogs that pop up in a
carefully controlled gene pool?
it is one of those things that just happens.just something that nature throws your way.it is a very
rare instance but when it happens they should be culled.i have had a few in my time not very many
for being involved with these animals for over 60 years.it is kind of like mental retardation or down
syndrom and such with humans it is one of those things that nature via genes throws at you.some
dogmen can go all their lives and not have to cull a dog for being a manbiter but most have to cull at
least one.it all depends on what genes go to what animals.the problem isn't if they pop up it is what
you do with them when they do.do the right thing and your ok but do thw wrong thing and i don't
have to tell you what happens.
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04-06-2007, 04:39 AM #65
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Quote:

I have a easy answer for this. Look Dogs like to eat the crap from cows, pigs ,sheeps, horses and
humans. I think the reason for that is they eat the crap from her natural victims. A long long time
ago we were just wolve food....then we get weapons and we had the brain to domesticate. But from
time to time the genes look back...even today and then its time to select.
04-06-2007, 04:46 AM #66
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Quote:

really it has allot to do with standards not being kept by all breeders. And also the introduction of
mutt dogs passed off as APBT. The problem is not all that breed cull and genetic flaws get passed on
generation to the next. Not all are like Jesse or me. I am sure even you would cull that sort of dog.
It just isn't acceptable. There are a few that over look that for one reason or another. But I don't
care how game that dog is if it bites me or another person that dog is dead. If it does bite there had
better be a good reason, such as the person was attacking a family member or it, or breaking into my
house. But if it is just part of that dogs nature it needs to have that nature buried with dirt.
04-06-2007, 04:49 AM #67
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Quote:

Excuse me, i believe there is a difference between a dog that kills pups because it wants to
kill PUPS and one that kills pups because it has no clue they are "little thingies" of its own
kind. Many kennel dogs never really get to understand what they are looking at. They only
know prey drive (among other things).
A human aggressive dog (IMHO) is a dog that has complete instruction and direction that
such HA tendencies are unwanted AND still actively seeks to bite a humans (similar to prey).
Rocky dogs know dogs. They know that pups are pups of the dog breed. Now if they are tollerant of
them that is another thing. pup killing isn't a good trait and you sure as hell don't need that kind of
dog about.
04-06-2007, 04:52 AM #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by realonebulldog

I have a easy answer for this. Look Dogs like to eat the crap from cows, pigs ,sheeps, horses
and humans. I think the reason for that is they eat the crap from her natural victims. A long
long time ago we were just wolve food....then we get weapons and we had the brain to
domesticate. But from time to time the genes look back...even today and then its time to
select.
I always thought some dogs were shit eaters because they lacked something in their diet. But he a
theory is a theory. I don't like shit eaters. Sorta grosses me out. I know why they roll in dead stuff
too. But I don't like that either. I have to wash them. But I am following your concept of getetic
traits popping up every so often from the past.
04-09-2007, 03:02 AM #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Attila Magyar

I am sure even you would cull that sort of dog.
Even you???
04-09-2007, 05:13 AM #70
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Even you???
Ya bro even me. especially me! wouldn't you??? I don't know many that would put up with a dog
biting and attacking them. I could be wrong, but I would assume you and Idgie wouldn't put up with
that either. Not meant as something negative dude. Just that even a nice person would as well. Not
just some not always nice person such as me. You understand now?
Last edited by Attila Magyar; 04-09-2007 at 05:23 AM.
04-09-2007, 06:45 AM #71
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Quote:

Honestly, I'm going to say purebred. Why? Because those are typically the dogs that puppymills
and BYBs are breeding to make money. Mutts are usually oops litters or born from strays which isn't
generation after generation of breeding without regard to temperament. Although now there are all
those damn "designer dogs" so I guess that evens things out. Of course, no matter what kind of
dog it is, there is always a chance of getting an unstable dog. JMHO...
i consider redirected aggression exactly that. you can't take a dog in a pit who bit because of
redirected aggresion and call it a manbiter IMO.
as far as byb's breed purebreds.....lol we all know they breed for the traits they want...color, size,
blah blah, so how can that be considered purebred? pedigree'd maybe but purebred....no.
04-09-2007, 03:28 PM #72
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oh, i've culled 3 manbiters since my last post. we breed them.
seriously though, no disrespect intended to anyone who has had to cull. i'm lucky to not have been
faced with that. i've had some grumpy old dogs and i've chosen to deal with some behavioral issues
that others might consider HA, but i did not. what bothers me about this discussion is that some
newbies or idiots (no-one here) might consider some behaviors (i.e. redirects) human aggression and
run out and cull their dogs, when they really have no idea what they are looking at. ignorance is
everywhere with this breed, and some people get off on culling. it's really helpful to educate here on
what exactly constitutes human aggression/manbiting/manfighting or whatever. i was just asking how
often true HA pops up on the yards of serious dogmen working with good blood (not byb's). i think
it's a fair question and i appreciate the answers thus far.
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04-09-2007, 04:00 PM #73
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04-09-2007, 04:23 PM #74
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Quote:

seriously though, no disrespect intended to anyone who has had to cull. i'm lucky to not have
been faced with that. i've had some grumpy old dogs and i've chosen to deal with some
behavioral issues that others might consider HA, but i did not. what bothers me about this
discussion is that some newbies or idiots (no-one here) might consider some behaviors (i.e.
redirects) human aggression and run out and cull their dogs, when they really have no idea
what they are looking at. ignorance is everywhere with this breed, and some people get off
on culling. it's really helpful to educate here on what exactly constitutes human
aggression/manbiting/manfighting or whatever. i was just asking how often true HA pops up
on the yards of serious dogmen working with good blood (not byb's). i think it's a fair
question and i appreciate the answers thus far.
I certainly agree with this.

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the king and the pawn go into the same box.
04-09-2007, 05:49 PM #75
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I don't know what you mean by "temperment" but i'm sure you can breed for looks and size and that
"temperment" if you set yourself to it. It would require a more scrutinous selection, but nontheless
possible. As far as the dog being true to it's owner well, i guess that all depends how true the owner
has been to the dog. with well bred and properly raised animals you shouldn't be concerned about
this. some animals will nip to be released, but this is another totally different scenario "if you know
what I mean". this is not to be confused with agression. If you stick around the dogs long enough
you will know what i mean.
Quote:

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YOUR KIND!
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04-09-2007, 11:01 PM #76
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Quote:

that is fair. I have not been faced with it very often. None at all in the past 25 years. But I have had
one or two before.
Culling for any reason is a challenge to your heart. Not fun at all.
Aggression as I see it, when it needs to be culled=

That dog sunk his teeth in me. out of anything but fear or in pain ie got caught in a fence, bear
clawed him etc. or excitement biting.
Bowing up, growing, showing teeth in a treatening way over any reason other than those mentioned
prior.
Biting a child, woman or any other non threatening person.

( do allow if the person was threatening, tresspassing, stealing abusing a dog)
I must be able to handle that dog at all times and it not try to alfa me. I will not and no one should
not accept that behavior out of any dog or animal that is a pet. No matter the breed.
If your playing with a dog and it grabs your hand by mistake and not the rope or toy that isn't
aggression that is oops. If it latches on and means that shit and does the clamp and shake tearing
flesh then that may be aggression. However in play and rough housing you have to evaluate it again
in a normal setting. I am not sure if I ever met any one that gets off on culling. But I may have and
didn't know it. There are people like that.
What I have seen though is very aggressive dogs overlooked and bred on. Full knowing that dog has
some serious human aggressive issues. That is dead wrong. I don't care how game, or good that dog
is doing a job, HA isn't acceptable to me period. I have a friend that his arms look like he had put
them through razor wire a million times. Dang near every one of his dogs over the past 30 years I
have known him were and are freaky aggressive to people, even to him at times as evedent by his
scars. I have seen in person his own dogs attack him full and outright. No holds bar. He got mad at
me and didn't talk to me for months for shooting one of his dogs that had him down on his back.
That dog was going to kill him. He said that was a good dog. I was like shit dude, that dog was far
from good but what ever.
Yes there are boundries on what is and what isn't aggression to humans. But once they are crossed I
belive it is best to tend to what needs to be done. Not just for your safty. But for the safty of your
family, friends, neighbors and future owners of dogs that would be off that dog.
I hope that you never do have to cull a dog for that reason or any other reason. It isn't easy and
isn't fun. Sucks bad. But I do hope if it should be done that you do. Or any one else for that matter. I
would love to see HA eleminated for good out of the breed. It probably will never happen but it can
at least be attempted by those that care and are not out just to pump pups to the public. I know
that you and your hubby are not out to pump out pups and I don't worry one second about what you
would do if you had too. I know full well you would hate it. Me too.
Oh and Rockstar I want to talk Gigs with you. Maybe see if you and your band could play at some
events.
04-10-2007, 02:09 AM #77
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Quote:

I've personally only seen one truly human aggressive dog that a "dogman" owned... who was also
bred and not culled. As far as I know, from what I saw of his offspring, none of them turned out to
be aggressive toward humans at all.
As for the original topic...

Quote:

...well that being said take a bull type dog thats human agressive do you think that the fact
As far as I'm concerned, I don't believe a truly human aggressive dog should be bred at all. But from
my limited experience of such dogs, it doesn't seem to be a huge factor in how the pups turn out,
although I'm sure if it was bred for or bred without any consideration at all, it would become an
issue.
And about the dogs having to be handled by their owner (or handler) and if it bit it was destroyed...
as has already been stated, was not always the case. If the owner or handler knew the dog and how
it was, the dog could be handled with the utmost care in order to avoid getting bitten. Rarely
anything in this breed is as black and white as that... although it is a good lesson to teach to future
"breeders" who have absolutely no idea as to what they are breeding. In my opinion, it would be
better for the average idiot to cull a dog because of any type of aggression than for one to have
absolutely no standard and breed whatever has the reproductive parts to do so.
Nearly any dog will be "true to it's owner," as previously mentioned, as long as it's owner is true to
him. The only variable in that situation would be the level of understanding of the dog.
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Re: Agree Or Dissagree?

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Re: Agree Or Dissagree?

Originally Posted by ericschevy

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Re: Agree Or Dissagree?

Originally Posted by clutch billups

Yes, I agree.. That is still pretty good considering...

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Re: Agree Or Dissagree?

"It happens all the time. Read a comic book, okay?"

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Re: Agree Or Dissagree?

Originally Posted by bahamutt99

Yeah, That's what I meant to say..LOL

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Re: Agree Or Dissagree?

Originally Posted by clutch billups

03-28-2007, 10:09 PM #10

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Re: Agree Or Dissagree?

Originally Posted by Old Timer

03-29-2007, 10:19 AM #11

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Re: Agree Or Dissagree?

Originally Posted by wheezie

03-29-2007, 11:15 AM #12

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Re: Agree Or Dissagree?

A HA dog, IMO, should never be bred.

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Re: Agree Or Dissagree?

Originally Posted by ericschevy

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Re: Agree Or Dissagree?

Originally Posted by Michele

what do you mean?

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Re: Agree Or Dissagree?

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Re: Agree Or Dissagree?

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