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TRANSCRIPTION AND RECORD OF A JEHOVAHS WITNESS JUDICIAL

COMMITTEE MEETING WITH ERIC BOTTORFF AND THREE OF THEIR
ELDERS THAT TOOK PLACE SEPTEMBER 2012

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---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Introduction and notes on this transcript and the entire tribunal:

This English-language transcription is based on four YouTube videos that I released in September of 2012 on
the JWStruggle YouTube channel. These were originally labeled Apostasy Trial parts 3, 4, 5, and 6. Parts
1 and 2 were introductory videos prior to the actual judicial committee meeting and have not been
transcribed. Driving to the meeting, small-talk prior its start, etc. was not included in the text. Small words,
stutters, and other redundancies were also omitted. Comments are occasionally added for clarity or
commentary and are bracketed in red. Sometimes bold has been added to show it is a significant statement or
change in the discussion. Legal line numbering has been included for reference purposes.
The Elder chairing the meeting and seated in the center is named Cosmo, about 50 or so years of age. The
younger man to the right is named Eric, who was a new elder at the time (less than a year) and is 31 or 32
years of age. The third elder who participates in the discussion the least is named Dennis, who is about 55
years of age. I will refer to the accused (myself) as Eric B since two of us share the same first name. I
would like it known that I did not record nor publish this experience with the intention of having the elders
humiliated or disparaged, and have in fact defended them from unfounded ad hominem attacks online that
Ive come across. They are not evil men, but simply tools of the Watchtower, captive to the concept, as
Ray Franz said in his perennial work Crisis of Conscience. I firmly believe that these secretive, closed-door
meetings are not in line with the Holy Scriptures or with enlightened jurisprudence in any country of the
world. I say this as one that had formerly presided over dozens of these star-chamber trials when I was an
asleep Jehovahs Witness elder, and also as one that has endured it as an accused person. It is hoped that
this transcription will allow people to independently decide for themselves whether this is so or not. It is my
position that the subject of the Watchtowers harmful shunning and kangaroo-court proceedings is more
important than any of us that were in the room that evening.
The meeting took place at the Kingdom Hall of Jehovahs Witnesses located at 1279 South 13th Street,
Grover Beach, CA 93433 on the date of September 5, 2012, with a brief second meeting taking place on
September 7, 2012 at the same address.
COLOR KEY: Black text is spoken dialogue. Comments and explanatory text is in red. Elders names are in
light blue. My name is in green.
Appendix: Following the main text of the Judicial Committee meeting an appendix is attached. It has three
letters. The first is my correspondence with the two elders that were assigned by the body to investigate my
alleged wrongdoing. I wrote them to try and explain the state of affairs that existed in my home at that time
and the problems I was having with my wife. After a failed attempt to meet with us both and then privately
with me, a registered letter was sent in August of 2012. My letter responding to theirs then follows. Finally
some facts about the transcription itself that some may find interesting are included.

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---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------JEHOVAHS WITNESS JUDICIAL COMMITTEE MEEETING FOR APOSTASY - OPENING PRAYER

COSMO: Before we start we should open with prayer. [Pointing to Dennis]
DENNIS: Jehovah our dear heavenly Father we approach your throne of undeserved kindness at this time
tonight. We pray that your spirit be upon our meeting with Eric Bottorff. We appreciate our brothers and
sisters and we appreciate him. And we pray that Father that all things can be based on you Word of Truth
and the guidance that you provide for us and what we use and that we can somehow help this dear brother
if we can. We pray Jehovah that you bless all the efforts of the brothers earthwide that endeavor to serve
you. Please forgive us for our many sins and many shortcomings, in Jesus name we pray, Amen.
COSMO: You understand this [indecipherable] no recording devices are to be used?
ERIC B: I understand.
COSMO: You understand that this is a judicial committee?
ERIC B: Yes.
COSMO: I always like to make sure so theres no [indecipherable] in understanding. Well turn in our Bibles
if you can to Galatians chapter 6. And verse 1 and Eric would you like to read that?
ERIC: Brothers, even though a man takes some false step before he is aware of it, YOU who have spiritual
qualifications try to readjust such a man in a spirit of mildness, as you each keep an eye on yourself, for fear
you also may be tempted.
COSMO: So the hope here is that were looking to gain you. We miss you.
ERIC B: I appreciate that.
COSMO: Id also like to go to James chapter 5, verse 13 [indecipherable]
DENNIS: Is there anyone suffering evil among you? Let him carry on prayer. Is there anyone in good spirits?
Let him sing psalms. Is there anyone sick among you? Let him call the older men of the congregation to
[him], and let them pray over him, greasing [him] with oil in the name of Jehovah. And the prayer of faith
will make the indisposed one well, and Jehovah will raise him up. Also, if he has committed sins, it will be
forgiven him.
COSMO: So we understand Jehovahs arrangement- Jehovah cares about usif we go on a path, he may
correct us, he loves us. So do know what you are accused of? Apostasizing?

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ERIC B: Actually I dont really know what Im accused of. I still havent heard from whoever these individuals
are.
COSMO: In the letter I think we gave youthe sin? The sin you were accused of?
ERIC B: In the letter you said that Id been accused of spreading false teachings. But I dont know who these
accusers are, I dont what it is that they told you that I said which is of course hearsay. You know I would
like to know, obviously who these individuals are, and what it is I supposedly said to them in a private
conversation. And Matthew 18 says that if a brother has sinned against you, you should go and lay bare
that sin between them alone. And for whatever reason these people have just skipped right over Matthew
18 and gone straight to you brothers.
COSMO: Of course, if its a gross sin, Matthew 18 doesnt apply, neither does Matthew 5 [indecipherable]
Its not a Matthew 18 matter.
ERIC B: Jesus didnt say which kind of sin it was though did he?
COSMO: He said if he sins against you. This is a sin against Jehovah.
ERIC B: In fact Matthew 18 says that it could be serious enough for him to be removed, right? And it would
still be a Matthew 18 matter.
COSMO: It could be. It depends though.
ERIC B: It could be.
COSMO: But gross sin isnt a requirement.
ERIC B: Gross sin like fornication or murder.
COSMO: Something you could be disfellowshipped for [indecipherable]
ERIC B: May I ask a question? I dont have a lot of questions and I honestly am not gonna go on and on and
on because I know your brothers time is valuable and I appreciate that. I do have some small notes- one
piece of paper.
COSMO: Are you trying to clear up something?
ERIC B: Well yeah there are two main questions that I would like clarified if you can answer them. The first
one, is I want to know has this matter already been decided by you three brothers? Have you three
brothers already decided Im guilty of apostasy?

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COSMO: Have we made already made a decision? If we had decided you would already be
disfellowshipped.
ERIC B: So Ill have an opportunity to address whatever it is I allegedly said? And they told you that they
recollect hearing? Because thats what were really talking about is this, Oh yeah he said thisand now Im
telling you and youre trying your best to remember what they told you what they remember me saying.
ERIC: That was what was expressed in that letter- that you would have that opportunity.
ERIC B: Okay. The other question that I have is that my father-in-law, Bob Gallaty, was informed that you
had enough evidence to proceed against me with a judicial committee
COSMO: Informed by who?
ERIC B: Well Im not going to say who informed but I do know for a fact that at the District Convention that
confidential information was divulged to Brother Gallaty by the elders. I dont know which one of you did
talk to him, but one of you talked to him and it came back to me.
COSMO: We have to know who.
ERIC: Well thats just hearsay.
ERIC B: Well I guess I have to know who it is that is supposedly accusing me but Bob talked to quite a few
people and I still have a few friends that love me. So it got back to me that hes going around at the
District Convention while people are trying to Safeguard their Heart [thats the title of the current
convention] and he was told confidential information about this matter by somebody on this body.
ERIC: In front of this individual that informed you?
COSMO: In front of this individual?
ERIC B: No, he went and told this person, Well I know all about it because the elders told me and know we
have enough to move against my son-in-law.
ERIC: Bob supposedly told this person
ERIC B: Oh yeah, of course he didnt think that it would get back to me. This has really bothered me and
hurt me greatly. There are two sides to every story. My wife has gone around and slandered me- shes suing
me for everything. In a public court she said that I struck and shoved herwhich of course is false. In 21
years of marriage the police have never been called. In 21 years of marriage there has never been an
accusation of me doing anything physical against my family. And yet, the slander and the gossip against me
has continued. And Ive sought advice from different brothers, and I thought, Why would I want to come
back to a place where they think that I am an abuser, and theyve been told by my soon-to-be ex-wife who

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is suing me hauling me to court. I begged her to go to counseling; she refused and told me its a waste of
timeand I was an apostate.
COSMO: Before we get too far into those things
ERIC B: So those are the things that bother. You are right I guess it really isnt that germane. I would just
like to know if its been handled.
COSMO: It could be in some circumstancesbut as far as we know [indecipherable] we dont know anybody
that told Bob about this matter.
ERIC: It is a matter that we take seriously Eric and as far as we can tell there has been no breach of
confidentiality.
DENNIS: I appreciate the letter you sent and we respect everything you said in that letter. Until we had a
third brother, due to the fact that there were allegations of apostasy, only the three of us, that was gonna
be on the committee, and thats Cosmo. None of us have talked to Bob Gallaty. None of us.
ERIC B: Ok.
ERIC: [indecipherable] If any other elders in the congregation did [indecipherable]
ERIC B: Well I appreciate that. But somebody did. Because I know for a fact- somebody did. [In actuality an
email was forwarded to me, written by my father-in-law himself so my proof was solid on this. However I
did not want to delve into it anymore and so let the matter go.]
COSMO: As you alluded to us, its hearsay if its third party.
ERIC B: Right.
COSMO: Just the same as what you were saying to us.
ERIC B: Yeah.
COSMO: Have you expressed differing views than what you were taught in this organization:?
ERIC B: Well I think that you could line up a hundred publishers and you could get a hundred different
answers on a lot of things. Let me clarify what I mean. I know older sisters that would swear up and down
that their husband is going to resurrected and they are going to get married again. Does that make them
apostate? Even though thats not really what the Watchtower teaches.
COSMO: Ive never had an older sister tell me that.

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ERIC B: I have- more than once. The reason that I mention it is so I can answer your question. There was an
elderly brother in Porterville, loved his dogs sweet brother- he just insisted that his dogs were gonna get
resurrected. Does that make him an apostate? Even though he expresses a different view of what we
understand to be Bible truth?
COSMO: I understand where youre going with this were not dealing with and older brother or an older
sister, we dont know all the circumstances. Were dealing with you. Weve had individuals come forth, and
tell us that you dont believe [indecipherable] and that youve been lied to all these years we had
someone say you told them that 1914 is well I wont use the word. And that you have been lied to all your
life. Are those true statements?
ERIC B: No. Now I can say this, the entire time I was brought up- and I know you two brothers are old
enough, you werent raised in the truth though Cosmo but I was told I would never get out of High School. I
was told that I would never grow old in this system. I was told that the end was imminent- that it was
coming soon. I was told hundreds and hundreds of times by my mother, and by the brother that studied
with me when I was a teenager that we were deep into the end of the end times. And I would never even
have a reason to save or get a career in this system. And of course weve found out that this isnt the case.
COSMO: So are you trying to indict the organization?
ERIC B: No.
COSMO: Then what are you saying? So you are saying they lied to you your whole life?
ERIC B: Im trying to answer your question. I said that my mother told me that. The brother that studied
with me told me that. I know I heard a talk in 1974 by Sunitko, a famous district overseer that said, Stay
Alive Til 75! Theres a 1968 Awake that says that young people will never grow old in this system and
theres no reason to pursue a worldly career because 1975 is coming soon. So I know theres some things
that Ive read in the magazines that have caused me confusion. Its been hard for me to understand. And so
what I started to do was I started to do an intensive study of the publications. The Proclaimers Book makes
all sorts of references to Brother Russell- and theres references to the Watchtower from the 1800s and the
early 1900s. And I looked all those up and read every one of them. The references..and the things that I
found were shocking. If Brother Russell was alive today he would be disfellowshipped. We dont study
Russells writings, even though he founded this organization because if we studied his writings, hed
branded a heretic. So brother Russell is somebody we look up to- I always looked up to him. We have some
of the really old publications in the library that are still there. Theres articles that encourage us to dig in
and read these older books. I actually did that. And what I found was shocking. The things that I found were
things I couldnt believe I was hearing. What we have is we have a problem with dissident Witnesses. I
found that there are literally
COSMO: Now Im going to stop you- because we are going down a road, and you are trying to convince us
of something..

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ERIC B: No Im not, honestly Im not. I have a point, and I have a question that I want to ask you because I
dont know the answer to it. Cosmo I did not come here with all the answers I dont have all the answers.
And I also didnt come hereA friend of mine said to me well you dont even have to go to this meeting and
I said I know that. I want to. I respect you brothers. I have feelings for you. Im not here to try to tear down
anyones faith. I told that to my friend Joe Turner. Who is no longer a friend to me, he refuses to even talk
to me even though I have apologized repeatedly and told him that I am not trying to stop [him] from
coming to the Kingdom Hall.
I do not want to stop anyone from serving Jehovah. That is not my intention. I love Jehovah I love the
friends. But there is a dissident movement not of hundreds, but of thousands of active Witnesses. There
are dozens and dozens of elderswell let me just show you this [I pull out a printout containing a list of
files that are available for download online. Pandemonium ensues! All three of them recoil and begin to
speak at once telling me not to show it to them, thinking it is apostate literature. ]
COSMO: I dont want to see it!
ERIC B: You dont have to see it. What it isall it is
ERIC: Did it come off the JW.org website?
ERIC B: No.
ERIC: Theres only one official website that we log onto to.
ERIC B: No- look, this is not literature, all it is, is a printout from a guy- hes an elder, he regularly uploads all
the letters to the body of elders, kingdom ministries, he uploads them all online anyone can download
them whenever they want. [Thank you Atlantis from www.jehovahs-witness.net!!] This brothers been
doing it for eight years. This is not apostate literature; all it is its just a list of recent literature. The recent
September 1st letter to the body of elders about the adjustments in cost
COSMO: [indecipherable] thats for the body of elders thats not [indecipherable]
ERIC B: Yeah.
ERIC: And he put that online.
ERIC B: Yeah.
ERIC: And he says hes an elder.
ERIC B: Well its obvious that he is he logs into JW.org. But what Im saying is

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DENNIS: Doesnt that strike you kinda peculiar, that confidence that we have with your situation and this is
supposedly an elder, with confidential information posting it online, and youre endorsing it? [His tone
shows that he is outraged]
ERIC B: No Im not endorsing it.
DENNIS: Well you were handing it to us!
ERIC B: All I wanted to do is show that thats what it is. Theres no confidential information printed on this,
[holding up the printout] this just establishes that happened, Im literally three minutes away from getting
to my point
ERIC: [indecipherable and speaking in the background]
ERIC B: Heres my point, I have a couple notes but I dont really need them much, heres the thing: There
are dozens of elders that regularly post everything that goes on. Every letter to the body of elders. My
goodness the KS10 Shepherd Book [their secret elder handbook that no one is supposed to even see the
cover of but JW elders] was online before you brothers even got it at the school couple years ago. And I
would like to knowwhat does that mean?
Does that tell you something Dennis?
Does that tell you something Cosmo?
Does that tell you something Eric?
[Several speaking at once]
What does it mean?
ERIC: Well it tells me that just as Jesus said would be, there would be apostates.
ERIC B: Right [I answered this sarcastically without even realizing it because his statement struck me as so
absurd. I dont believe Jesus ever said there would be apostates anywhere in the Bible.]
COSMO: And it tells me that these brothers have overstepped their bounds. And they need to be corrected.
ERIC B: Okay.
COSMO: Because you cant do anything [indecipherable] when you were baptized to follow the rules of this
organization or when you become an elder you have a duty and agree to keep confidential things
confidential [indecipherable] My wife doesnt know anything about any congregation matters because
that confidence hasnt been broken.
ERIC B: But you see the confidence has been broken.

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COSMO: Well by some

ERIC B: There are brothers on the hospital liaison committee that started a website called jwreform.org.
They started it not because theyre unbelieversbut because theyre believers. Not because they hate the
organization but because they love it. But they want
ERIC: What kind accusations are they making why are they talking against the organization?
ERIC B: Thats a black and white kind of a yes or no question thats not really- without you going and looking
at it which is not saying thats what you have to do
ERIC: What are you thinking?
ERIC B: Heres whats happening theres not hundreds, but theres thousands of brothers and sisters. Now
I know theres seven million active Witnesses right? So were talking about a percentage. Jesus said he
would leave the 99 and go after the one. There is a large dissident movement of Witnesses that see there
are some serious problems- there are some serious problems theyre not local problems theyre systemic
problems. They start at the top and work down. [One definition: A systemic problem is a problem due to
issues inherent in the overall system, rather than due to a specific, individual, isolated factor. Contrast with
pilot error, user error or mistake.]
ERIC: Doesnt every organization have problems?
ERIC B: Im not talking about He stumbled me, hes a mean guy.
ERIC: But there are mistakes that are made and there are refinements that are made.
ERIC B: Right, thats true. One example is that after the memorial each year theres thousands of brothers
that partake at home privately of the emblems. If they do it at the Kingdom Hall, theyll be ridiculed,
theyll be considered mentally unbalanced as the Watchtower said recently. But they know in their heart
they are part of the body of Christ.
COSMO: Can I ask a question? Does light hide in the darkness?
ERIC B: No.
COSMO: This is all things people are doing [indecipherable] if theres any truth to them they would do it out
in the open regardless of what anyone says about you. [indecipherable] quite frankly youre talking
against it.

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ERIC B: I dont believe that I have committed any serious sins against Jehovah, [or] Jesus. The Bible says we
need to love him with our whole heart mind soul and strength- I do that. I share my faith with others, all
the time. At work
COSMO: The good news, as it was taught to you?
ERIC: Even some things that the Governing Body might not support do you share those things?
ERIC B: No I do not talk about the governing body
DENNIS: No- things they would not support.
ERIC: Like 1914?
ERIC B: No thats not what I talk about. I informal witness all the time at work, and what I talk about, What
do you think is happening with the world do you think its going to last etc. Something that I could say at
any door as any one of us has been trained. What Im trying to get at brothers is that just because a
brother disagrees with something, does that make him a heretic? Does that make him an evil wicked
mentally diseasedIm not trying to choke my fellow slaves. I am not a leavening influence with these
brothers I dont seek out brothers and try to subvert their faith, quite the contrary, and I can tell you, Ive
spoken to a former circuit overseer, that feels that same way as the rest of us that are in the dissident
movement, Ive spoken to former Bethelites, lots of elders have emailed me. I had an elder the other day
email me and said look, I got no body to talk about this- I cant talk to my wife, I certainly cant talk to my
fellow brothers on the body. They dont know who else to talk to.
ERIC: Would they be considered a heretic?
ERIC B: What Im saying is, were talking about elderly brothers and sisters, brothers that have been
active for decades, that are seeing that theres problems, serious problems. But theres no avenue for
those problems or questions to be addressed. In fact you cant even ask certain questions
ERIC: Heres an answer; in the New System when were perfect those questions will be satisfied.
ERIC B: Right
COSMO: You can address questions to the organization.
ERIC B: Not anymore. We had a questions from readers on that a year or so ago. Theyre not interested in
anymore letters.
COSMO: Youre saying all those years these individuals had no answer they had an answer they can write
a letter I wrote letters when I had them.

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ERIC B: Oh yeah, Ive read lots of them. Theres tons of them online.
COSMO: Its not that I dont care what other people are doing, we have to look at each individual case, be
in their congregationif theyre not in our congregation then the elders cant know every circumstance that
can transpire. We have no jurisdiction.
ERIC: So at one point Hymanaeus and Philetus thought Jesus came back in the flesh [indecipherable]
something to consider.
ERIC B: Well Paul certainly spoke of them in a bad light. They were denying the Christ. A pretty fundamental
doctrine.
ERIC: Yeah- so do you see how that could be true today? You talk about a persons dog being resurrected
were talking about doctrinal things that the organization teachesthat the scriptures have taught us to
stay close to.
ERIC B: Well let me give you an example, [holding out a half-slip of paper in my hand] this is not an apostate
piece of literature this is what brother Russell wrotemaybe youre afraid to look at it? [They remained still
with folded arms] Its just a quote from Brother Russell in a Watchtower: [It reads]
Beware of "organization. It is wholly unnecessary. The Bible rules will be the only rules you will need. Do
not seek to bind others' consciences, and do not permit others to bind yours. Believe and obey so far as you
understand Gods Word today, and so continue growing in grace and knowledge and love day by day.
Thats the September 15 Watchtower, 1895 page 1866. So brother Russell was dead set against
establishing creeds, doctrines, organizations,. They were fighting the Catholic church. But you see what
happened was the Watchtower society and all these corporations that publish the literature have become
a hierarchy and an organization just like the Catholic church. In fact the society lawyers just recently
referred to their policies as a hierarchy, and a church in court in defending some lawsuit. Russell started out
saying we dont need an organization to tell us every single thing we must believe.
What movie we must watch. Whether we can go to jury duty or notIm a brand new elder years ago and
Ive got publishers 20 years older than me saying, Do I go to jury duty?
DENNIS: Eric Im going to have to stop you I have to speak up. Im not interested in what Russell said.
You know this as well as all of us here. Part of the reason were in the truth are you going to listen?
ERIC B: Uh huh, I will listen.
DENNIS: Thank you. We made a vow to support the faithful and discreet slave. That is our stance. It is a
progressive organization. Are you saying that we should go back to the thinking that Russell had? Russell
had brothers that didnt progress. You read in the Proclaimers book, those that didnt progress stayed in
the pipeline. Theres always going to be dissidents in this organization until the end times. Always. The

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rebellious talk of Korah look at that. Read that account. Do you think they were out of their minds, or
high-minded heretics?
They followed the wrong thinking, that Jehovah did not want them to think but they thought they were
right. Those that progressed with what was current! Were trying to reach your heart brother theres
apostate websites. Apostate websites that were warned against. Do you still agree with the Watchtower
magazine?
ERIC B: Is that a question?
DENNIS: Yes.
ERIC B: Sorry I thought it was rhetoricalI try to read all the issues. Theres a lot of good articles there.
DENNIS: Do you agree?
ERIC B: I agree with the vast majority of everything that we believe, that Ive been taught since I was a little
boy. Thats one thing Ive tried to get across to my wife. She kept saying youre leaving God and I said No
Im not! Just because my Christian consciencehas prayed and agonized for hours and hours over certain
topics. For hours and hours Ive studied and researched the publications, and I cant- theres certain things
that we dont have right. Theres just certain things that we dont have right.
DENNIS: What was the greatest quality did Jesus say that we would have as a Christian? [indecipherable]
What was the biggest thing he said we should have?
ERIC B: Well I know the two greatest commandments are to love Jehovah with your heart soul strength and
mind and love your neighbor as yourself.
DENNIS: Why did Jehovah pick Moses?
ERIC B: Because he was a humble meek man.
DENNIS: Sometimes you dont understand things Eric. But if were humble, that light gets brighter and
brighter all the time.
ERIC B: Yeah. My goal is toohumble myselfaccept counsel, encourage as many people as I can. That is
what I have tried to. Thats what Im still doing. Even though it may not look like that to you brothers. You
tell me that Joe and his wife were bothered by me sending them some texts, or saying what I said. I would
love to have the opportunity to apologize to them and I have texted Joe and told him, Brother I love you
weve been friends for 20 years. Even though you refuse to even talk to me anymore thats okay Im still
your friend I still consider you a brother.

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He chooses to not even respond to me, which again shows that there is a systemic problem. There is a
problem with legalism, theres a problem with judgmentalism in this organization and Im including
myself because I did it for years. We judge on the outward appearance. The other day Im in line to get
something and Cheo Serrano is in front of me. I love Cheo. I love that brother. I tap him on the shoulder and
I say,
Hey its good to see you!
He looks at me and says,
Whats that?? [My voice was imitating him so they would understand. He was very stern and grumpy in
his demeanor which is uncharacteristic of his friendly personality.]
And I said,
Hows Sherry, whats going on? with a smile.
Whats that? [pointing to my goatee]
And I said,
Its hair man, whats going on? [Jokingly, trying to make light of my beard.]
And he goes,
Whats that for?
And I tried to joke it off and said,
Well youre jealous.
And then he grabs his bag and says,
Well I gotta go. And he scurried away. He just scurried away
Now I forgive Cheo. Hes just responding to what hes been taught. To judge anyone that doesnt use the
right little phrases, and anyone that doesnt look the way youre supposed to look. And all the sudden
youre an apostate. Youre an evil, mentally diseased person. You see that is what he has been trained to
think. And unfortunately many but not all have been indoctrinated to think [that way]. Thats wrong
brothers. Thats fleshly. Samuel went to pick the next king of Israel and Jesses oldest son was handsome a
good looking man oh He must be the one! [God said] I have rejected him. Then they bring out this
freckle-faced, red-haired kid, and thats the one.
So to take something as mundane and banal and unimportant as hair on my face
COSMO: Were not talking about Cheo [indecipherable]
ERIC B: Were not talking about Cheo.
COSMO: Youre talking about something unrelated.
ERIC B: Not in my opinion Cosmo. And Im not trying to consume time unnecessarily.
COSMO: Are we judging you in the area of [indecipherable]?
ERIC B: I dont know I cant read your heart.

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ERIC: Youre doing the same thing with Cheo isnt that what youre doing?
ERIC B: It was quite obvious what he was thinking.
ERIC: But really you dont know.
ERIC B: I cant read his mind. But what Im saying is, theres some serious problems where we have gone
beyond the things that are written. The apostle Paul said that in 1 Corinthians 4 and in fact if I could share
that with you, in 1 Corinthians 4 he had something to say about being judged. Starting with verse 3:
Now to me it is a very trivial matter that I should be examined by YOU or by a human tribunal. Even I do
not examine myself. 4 For I am not conscious of anything against myself. Yet by this I am not proved
righteous, but he that examines me is Jehovah. 5 Hence do not judge anything before the due time, until the
Lord comes, who will both bring the secret things of darkness to light and make the counsels of the hearts
manifest, and then each one will have his praise come to him from God.
And then of course in verse 6 he says (later on) Do not go beyond the things that are written, So first of
all in verse 3 he says look you can assemble whatever human tribunal you want to judge me
COSMO: Are you saying this is a human tribunal?
ERIC B: Well Im not saying it is, but is does seem sort of like a parallel and Im certainly not putting myself
in the place of Paul because hes a lot more righteous than I ever could be. [Dictionary definition of
tribunal: A committee or board appointed to adjudicate in a particular matter. Something that has the
power to determine or judge.]
DENNIS: Then why did you read the scripture?
ERIC B: Because it applies to what were talking about.
ERIC: You do think this is a tribunal.
ERIC B: I didnt say that.
COSMO: Well Im asking you.
ERIC B: Its mainly the part after that- he says, Its trivial to be judged by his fellow men because they cant
read his heart. Isnt that what hes talking about? Thats what I get out of it. Verse four he says Im not
conscious of anything against myself.
DENNIS: We cant read your heart.
ERIC B: Well yeah. I cant read your heart.

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DENNIS: So? Im still baffled as to why youre reading it!

ERIC B: The point is Paul is saying God is the one that judges. But the problem was when Jesus came on
the scene there was a group of religious leaders that had taken it upon themselves to be in the seat of
Moses. They had taken it upon themselves to put all these rules on the people. They were the ones that
said you can do this but you cant do that. You see when you go through the publications you find out
that there are hundreds and hundreds of rules and policies and things we are told we can and cant do.
Were told what fraction of blood we can abstain from and what fraction of blood we dont have to abstain
from. Theres no scripture anywhere that says one way or the other. So why isnt it up to a brothers
conscience? Who is it that sits all day long and decides what blood fraction we can take, and what blood
fraction we cant take? Isnt that going beyond the things that are written?
ERIC: [Impatiently] Can I ask you a question now?
ERIC B: Yeah.
ERIC: You see a lot of things. And if you can see it then others can see it. You know Jehovah sees it too. If
he can live with it why cant you?
ERIC B: Maybe hes not living with it.
ERIC: Do you think hes using you to correct the matter?
ERIC B: I dont think hes using me personally Im not a prophet if thats what youre saying.
ERIC: Does it seem like hes correcting the matter?
ERIC B: [Sighs] Micah 7:7 says I will show a waiting attitude. I will wait on Jehovah. Ive been waiting on
Jehovah for the last couple years as Ive agonized with my conscience over all the things that Ive been
discovering. Things were not supposed to know. The Watchtower Society was a member of the United
Nations for ten years!
ERIC: Youre right but Jehovah can correct that.
ERIC B: Yeah he did- he has... [My meaning was that it has already been exposed and many people know
The Truth About The Truth now.]
ERIC: Back to that question then: He can live with it.
ERIC B: He cant live with it.
ERIC: Why cant he?

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ERIC B: He cant live with it. Youre saying, Oh Jehovah can live with it.
ERIC: And youre saying you need to be patient. Not patient the last couple years but youve been patient
your whole life. [indecipherable] But has anything changed really?
ERIC B: Yeah- a lot has. You raise a good point Eric that goes right along with Bible history. Jeremiah was
raised up as a prophet. He preached for decades, forty or fifty years, to his own people. Because they had
apostatized. The leaders had apostatized And they hated him for it. And they wanted to kill him. Now
you three brothers whom I respect, and I love, youre going to dismiss me in a little bit, thats part of the
procedure. And then youre going to decide whether youre going to spiritually execute me. Youre going
to decide whether you want to spiritually stone me or not. But whether you do or not- I just want to
finish this sentence- whether you decide to or not Paul said its a trivial thing because Gods the one that
judges.
And when you get up on the platform and read a little slip of paper announcing that [name of a recently
disfellowshipped person] is no longer a Witness Eric Bottorff is no longer a Witnesswhoever it is. That
has nothing to do with what Jehovah thinks. And what the judge- the judge is not Jehovah its Jesus. John
5:22-24 he said all the authority, all the judging has been given to Jesus. Jesus is the one thats in charge
right now. Hes the one thats under his Heavenly Father thats going to decide these things..
ERIC: How do you apply 1 Corinthians 5:11-13 when it tells us that the men of the congregation are to
judge?
ERIC B: Those scriptures certainly have validity but the older men of ancient times and in the first century
there was no official appointment where you had to get rubber stamped back at Bethel in New York. It
didnt work that way. Theres dozens, scores of older brothers that could serve. In fact the way that the
judging took place, its right in the Insight book. I actually had looked that up earlier, its under Volume 1,
Court , Judicial. And it says, [reading from the quote]
The local court was situated at the gate of a city the publicity that would be afforded any trial at the gate
would tend to influence the judges toward care and justice in the trial proceedings and in their decisions.
Then it applies it to the Christian congregation like I said this is from the Insight book page 518,
Paul tells the congregation that they must judge those weighing the evidence without prejudgment
[We are interrupted by a knock on the door. This happened more than once as regular meetings were in
progress just outside the room and the walls and doors are not sound-proofed and the rooms are not
isolated in any way at Kingdom Halls. This is something I never could understand why was not done when
designing the plans for these buildings.]
ERIC B: [Resuming] Im almost done:

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Jesus commanded his disciples that if one sinned against another, efforts should first be made to settle the
matter personally between themselves.
The reason I read this is that the principle was that judging in the nation of Israel was transparent. People
could listen, they could watch, they could observe. And the reason was, it says,
The publicity that would be afforded any trial at the gate would tend to influence the judges toward care
and justice.
You see, we dont have that today. What we have here is called a star-chamber. Some of you might know
that phrase. A star-chamber is a place where men come in, they make a decision. Its not allowed to be
recorded, no one knows what happened. No one knows why the verdict was reached. All they know is
the person was found guilty. That person has no recourse; they have no way to defend themselves. So
what will happen is after you brothers decide, or if you brothers decide to spiritually stone me. Youll
make the announcement in a couple of weeks and then all the friends will just assume that I committed
fornication, or I got drunk every night, and thats why poor Michelle, the victim, had to leave me and
divorce me.
You see, the slander against me and the harmful gossip will continue. And you know what thats okay, Ive
got to let my ego go. Ive had to humble myself more than I ever have in my entire life. Ive had to endure a
prominent elder, my father-in-law going around at the District Convention going around telling people what
Im doing...
COSMO: [indecipherable] Theres no way you could know thats what he was doingyou dont know.
ERIC B: I know. Maybe you care about that, maybe you dont care I dont know.
ERIC: Its not a matter of we dont care its just a matter of what we are able to do there.
ERIC B: Youre right. Look Im not asking you brothers to wave a magic wand and fix all the problems. But
what Im saying is that there is serious problems with the organization. The leadershipwe have a new
governing body member, Brother Sanderson. Hes 47 years old, hes been partaking of the emblems for
who knows how many years Is he mentally unbalanced? I mean I dont think he ismaybe he is spirit[Interupting , all talking at once]
COSMO: Theres no point in asking questions that we cant answer [indecipherable] Lets stick to what we
can answer.
ERIC B: But the point is, all Im saying is just because I have a different opinion on certain things. That makes
me wicked, evil, and you brothers are going to decide that Im going to die at Armageddon, thats what
youre doing.

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ERIC: Thats not what were doing. Thats not our decision thats Jehovahs decision. [Its actually Jesus
decision though according to John 5:22-24.]
ERIC B: Its what you will do if you decide that way.
ERIC: Thats Jehovahs decision.
COSMO: you know, Eric, when you ask us a question and you want to paint it black and white. When we ask
you a question you dont want to paint it black and white and you dont know the answer.

--------------------------------------------------------[END OF PART 3 ON THE YOUTUBE VIDEO]

---------------------------------------------------------

ERIC B: Some questions dont have a yes or no answer.

COSMO: Well this one does: Do you recognize the authority of the Slave? [It has taken them almost 45
minutes to finally get to the loyalty questions. This of course is meant to indict me if I say that I do not
believe in their mythical Faithful Slave, the men that run the Watchtower in upstate New York, USA.]
ERIC B: Why would you ask me that question?
COSMO: Because it doesnt seem like you really value the arrangement. And it doesnt seem like you
believe in the Slave and their direction.
ERIC B: Of course I believe in the faithful slave its in the Bible, its at Matthew 25:45-47.
COSMO: Do you believe that this organization the brothers [indecipherable] make up the faithful
slave?
ERIC: The Governing Body.
COSMO: The Governing Body.
ERIC B: See, it has to do with a scripture that you have to read you have to study it, you have to understand
it. I dont want to add anything thats not there. If all youre looking for are loyalty questions, McCarthy
did that back in the Fifties and it didnt work too well.
Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?

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They just wanted a yes or no answer, you see? And then they wanted to paint those people as Reds and
Commies. So, when you ask that kind of a question for example, you opened up with two scriptures
that implied my immediate guilt at the beginning.
You read two scriptures about, [how] I need to confess my sins, and I need to tell the older men what my
sins are so that you can forgive me. Those are the first two scriptures you brothers read. Then the next
thing I asked was, Have you already made up your mind?
Oh no we havent made up our mind!
But yet the first two scriptures you read imply that Im the sinner, and that Im spiritually sick, and I need to
confess to you. Those were the first two scriptures you read to me. And of course we read those because
thats right out of the Shepherd book.
ERIC: They give our attention there, [indecipherable] we have those accusations that were made on you but
they are just accusations. We brought you together with us to see if these accusations are true or not. We
didnt make a decision like you said like you just explained to us. There was no predetermined decision but
our reading those scriptures ahead of time just sets that stage that we care about you and that we want to
try and help you based on some false step thats been [indecipherable].
DENNIS: And all those things, Eric, all these expressionsbut its like an agenda on your part to question
those two scriptures that with our heart and soul before Jehovah we read those so we wanna reach your
heart brother. Thats why we read those and now youre giving me that deer in the headlights look but I
understand that [laughing nervously] but its like you are accusing us just for reading those scriptures and
you took offense to it.
ERIC B: No I did not take offense to those scriptures.
DENNIS: You just said
ERIC B: All Im saying is [multiple people talking] if I pick up the Bible and read the one where Jesus called
the religious leaders whitewashed graves [indecipherable] Then Id be implying that thats what you are
which I do not believe that you are. And I do respect you brothers as equalsas fellow brothers But do
you have power over me? I dont believe that you do.
Do you have the right to exert your conscience over my conscience? I dont believe that you do. I dont
believe that any man has the right on earth has the right to dictate anyone elses conscience. Thats what
the Pope used to do. And he
ERIC: So the answer is no to Cosmos question then?
ERIC B: What was the original question?

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COSMO: Do you recognize the authority of this arrangement?

ERIC B: I dont feel that youve shown me any scriptures that show that you have the right to
ERIC: [Annoyed] We showed you 1 Corinthians 5.
ERIC B: Yeah but what Im getting at is that you have these people that are accusing me of these serious
sins but what is the serious sin that Ive committed? I told Joe that I had some problems with the
[indecipherable] I was going through agony- I had tears in my eyes when I spoke to Joe. And I all I did was
try to tell him that Im confused I didnt know what to do he was one of my best friends. Thats what you
get for talking one of your best friends about anything that goes against whats taught in the Watchtower.
ERIC: Theres one thing about Joe Eric weve got to bring out. I did get a text message forwarded that you
said 1914 was crap.
ERIC B: Rightits sad but true. Its been 98 years and nothings happened.
ERIC: Earlier you denied it and thats why I bring that out. We wanna help you but if you cant be honest
with us
ERIC B: Im trying to be honest. Look we all say things when were worked up. I certainly dont go around
telling people that. Its another thing that makes me sad and makes me feel bad that we cant you know
the whole calculation Russell came up with that based on the width of the pyramid of Geeza, thats how
he came up with 1914. First it was 1874
ERIC: We dont care about weve done research too, thats not the point.
ERIC B: I doubt you have Eric.
ERIC: Were talking about trying to reach you honestly and were being honest with you but were not
getting it in return.
ERIC B: Im not being honest?
ERIC: No because at first you said that you didnt say that.
ERIC B: I didnt say it in the way that you guys are saying, you said that none of this was true
[All talking at once]
ERIC B: So heres the thing- theres a little old lady [indecipherable] Theres a lady in Brittan her name is
Grace Gough. Grace gave her testimony she was on a nationwide talk show it was in the news. The elders
made a shepherding call on her in Brittan and they said something about 1914 and she said,

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Well, I dont know if I believe in that.

And they said,
What do you mean?
Well it doesnt make sense to me, etc. etc.
They disfellowshipped this lady because she didnt believe in 1914. So they shunned her, excommunicated
her, none of the friends speak to her, no one would come over and fix her leaky faucet. Is that loving? Is
that a loving arrangement?
DENNIS: We werent there Eric. Were dealing with a situation [indecipherable]
ERIC B: [Frustrated] Now you dont want to answer that question.
COSMO: Youre giving us information second hand. And so its pointless isnt it we dont know all the
circumstances like any individual you brought up. We would have to talk with them, look at the
circumstances, see what it is that happened. [indecipherable]
DENNIS: I apologize for the deer in the headlights [comment] I havent seen you in a while.
ERIC B: I dont know what I was doing with my eyes I was looking straight at you. [all laughing]
DENNIS: All we can do is base...you know youve been hurt a lot. Ive got to tell you, in the letter that we
received from you, you know you have a tough skin, but it hurt me that you felt- Its interesting that you
quoted about a tribunal because that the letter you said earlierthat you dont want no star-chamber
[trial]. If you cant recognize the fact that Jehovahs [indecipherable] that we have now, we believe with all
our heart and soul as elders here, and they be brothers going out the back door, but we still believe this is
the truth- we believe this is the most effective way to reach brothers and sisters hearts. This is as good as it
gets with imperfect men.
I know just as many friends of mine that are dissidents, and I got to tell you they are the most miserable
bunch Ive ever been around. All they do is complain, nitpick. They say theyre preaching. None of them go
door to door. None of them talk about the Kingdom. None of them go to the Kingdom Hall. So where do
they go? The Lutheran church? Rent a hall someplace? So my point is this is as good as it gets. Were trying
to reach your heart because youre our brother. Were not a tribunal! [indecipherable] Were imperfect
men we do the best we can. You quoted the Insight book- based on information that we have and we
agree to uphold the organizationweve taken an oath to uphold principles such as this. Just to mention:
[He now reads from the Insight Volume 1, page 127:]
Hymenaeus, Alexander, and Philetus. (1Ti 1:19, 20; 2Ti 2:16-19) Among the varied causes of apostasy set
forth in apostolic warnings were: lack of faith (Heb 3:12), lack of endurance in the face of persecution (Heb
10:32-39), abandonment of right moral standards (2Pe 2:15-22), the heeding of the counterfeit words of
false teachers and misleading inspired utterances (2Pe 2:1-3; 1Ti 4:1-3; 2Ti 2:16-19; compare Pr 11:9), and
trying to be declared righteous by means of law (Ga 5:2-4). While still making profession of faith in Gods

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Word, apostates may forsake his service by treating lightly the preaching and teaching work that he
assigned to followers of Jesus Christ. (Lu 6:46; Mt 24:14; 28:19, 20) They may also claim to serve God but
reject his representatives, his visible organization
Now you know the scripture about heart... Im going to share Joshua 24:14,
And now fear Jehovah and serve him in faultlessness and in truth, and remove the gods that YOUR
forefathers served on the other side of the River and in Egypt, and serve Jehovah. 15 Now if it is bad in YOUR
eyes to serve Jehovah, choose for yourselves today whom YOU will serve, whether the gods that YOUR
forefathers who were on the other side of the River served or the gods of the Amorites in whose land YOU
are dwelling. But as for me and my household, we shall serve Jehovah.
What Im meaning Eric, is that were going to stick to this organization and follow the direction were
given.
ERIC B: I respect that Dennis. [I respect his right to do so]
DENNIS: We base it on points that
ERIC B: I respect that, but that doesnt change anything.
DENNIS: How do you feel about the Faithful Slave?
ERIC B: I already told you if its in the Bible I believe it.
DENNIS: Do believe were being directed by it right now Jehovahs Witnesses?
ERIC B: The reason that you ask that question Dennis, has no connection with what you just read. You just
read a scripture about, As for me and my household, we shall serve Jehovah. And thats what I do. When I
have my children over we pray every morning and every night. We read, we study thats what I do with my
own family. I will never stop serving God. I will never stop letting my light shine. I decided I wasnt going to
try some tricky maneuver. I mean, I could have told you how sorry I was, and I believe everything, I made a
mistake, and try to dodge some sort of a spiritual bullet that you guys were gonna fire at me. I decided I
didnt want to do that.
I have to be honest and I have to be true to my conscience. My conscience, my Christian, Bible-trained
conscience disagrees with Dennis and Cosmo and Eric on a few things. Just because I disagree on a few
things thats enough to call me an apostate? Thats enough to shun me, and say that Im going to die at
Armageddon? Thats wrong brothers. Thats wrong.
[All talking at once]

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ERIC: With Hymenaeus and Philetus it was one thing- thats scriptural. You cant argue with it. And the
point was was to shun those men on that one basic difference. One.
ERIC B: That was a completely different thing, it doesnt even apply.
ERIC: Thats an apostate in the congregation Eric.
ERIC B: Speaking out against Christ, denying Christ
ERIC: Whether he came in the flesh or not
ERIC B: Yeah, thats pretty major.
ERIC: Like it or not this is Jehovahs chosen organization Eric and you still havent answered that question.
ERIC B: We have to be Christian- thats what we have to be. We have to serve God and Christ. Theres a lot
of people that are doing that. If you think that you guys are the only ones that is the height of
arrogance. Everybody else is going to die? Seven billion people are gonna die, except for us? And were
gonna get to pick out their houses?
[All talking at once]
ERIC: We dont believe that!
ERIC B: You all believe that. I believed it every since I was a little kid. Theres pictures of it in the
publications
ERIC: Only Jehovahs Witnesses? Show us those pictures!
ERIC B: Of course [I can].
ERIC: Theres going to be a resurrection of the faithful and the unfaithful.
ERIC B: Im not talking about a resurrection. Seven billion people are gonna die at Armageddon? But not
us!
COSMO: I dont know who [indecipherable]
ERIC B: But why do we all believe that and teach it?
ERIC: We dont.
COSMO: I dont teach it.

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ERIC B: I did I did. Thats what I was brought up to believe.

COSMO: Are there others saying that we teach that?
ERIC B: Of course, if youre not a baptized active Witness youre dead at Armageddon.
ERIC: Do you think Jehovahs blessing is on other organizations too then?
ERIC B: Well Jesus said you would know them by their fruits. Theres a lot of good fruits from a lot of
people, all over the world.
COSMO: Were not talking individual people its got to be Jehovahs organization. [indecipherable] Its the
only organization on earth.
ERIC B: And where is there a scripture that says that? Can you show me a scripture that says that?
COSMO: That Christ is the head of the congregation?
ERIC B: No. That
ERIC: Thats what Im talking the congregation is an organized people.
ERIC B: Yeah theres lots of them, millions of them.
ERIC: And Christ is the head of that organized people- is that in all religions? Is Christ the head of all
religions?
ERIC B: You tell me.
ERIC: Im asking you for your opinion.
ERIC B: Well see thats just it- you want an opinion. You want me to say something that goes against what
you think, and then that way you can justify your course of action. Isnt that what were talking about?
ERIC: Were talking about the truth. [He waves his arm in a sweeping gesture] See you wont answer those
questions.
ERIC B: Ive answered lots of questions but the thing is if you dont get the answer that you want then
thats enough... Thats enough to spiritually execute me.
COSMO: Youre always assuming a lot of things. You assume a lot of things you are accusing us of. [Talking
at once] Were asking you.

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ERIC: People have come forward Eric, with these accusations. Were not making these accusations.
COSMO: I dont hold anything against you personally but Im [indecipherable]
ERIC B: So you are going to disfellowship me because I have a different opinion than the Watchtower says
we should? And you think thats okay?
COSMO: We didnt disfellowship you. [Im not sure if he said yet? at the end of the statement its very
low volume] Let me ask you something
ERIC B: [Frustrated] Because you dont want to answer that question.
COSMO: Yeah I do.
ERIC B: Okay.
COSMO: Let me tell you something. First off. You can have these other feelingsas one of Jehovahs
Witnesses.
ERIC B: Dont ever say one out loud!
COSMO: There you go. And thats the direction we have about apostatizing. When you start telling other
people, when start putting doubts in everybody
ERIC B: Im not trying to put doubts in anybodys mind.
COSMO: Well you have discussed these things with many people.
ERIC B: Many people?
COSMO: Well who have you discussed these with? Have you been talking to different people? Did you talk
to Brother Turner and his [wife] separately about these things?
ERIC B: I never talked to Sandreckia, all we did was text a few times
COSMO: You discussed your view to her? What about to his brother? Did you talk to him?
ERIC B: Well yeah [I have talked to him] hes a friend of mine but I didnt want to talk about any of that. He
says, Joes worried about you. And I said Curtis I dont want to talk about any of that stuff with you. And I
did not talk about anything negative with Curtis. You see whats interesting is that all of a sudden these
people just sorta pop up with these stories about how theyre worried about Eric.

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COSMO: Theyve been talking.

ERIC B: Curtis was the one that said Joe says youre talking crazy talk and negative stuff. And I said look
Curtis I dont want to go into that and I steered the conversation away from that. Im already being
shunned by anybody that sees me around town; they go the other direction. Theyve already made up
their minds about me. But yet theyll say, Oh you need to come back to the meetings!
Well why would I want to come back to the meetings where people already dont love me, dont like me,
and shun me? Why would I want to come back?
COSMO: Youre assuming that all [indecipherable]
ERIC B: [Frustrated] Have you walked a mile in my moccasins lately Cosmo? Have you had your wife
publicly slander you in court? Sue you for your house, your kids? The car you just paid off? Put away your
mate all the things she has done.
COSMO: Im going to stop you.
ERIC B: But shes the victim?
COSMO: Im going to stop you.
ERIC B: Shes the victim?
COSMO: We havent decided whos the victim, because we were hoping to talk to both of you about it. And
thats what we wanted but you didnt make yourself available.
ERIC B: I tried. Every time it was about to happen she did something to sabotage it.
COSMO: You mean with us?
ERIC B: Yes.
ERIC: You texted me and a said you felt sick that day.
ERIC B: Because of what had happened with her earlier that day.
COSMO: You see, we, [indecipherable]
ERIC B: She dropped the bomb on me.
COSMO: We personally didnt [indecipherable] because thats not why we are here. And thats how it is.
[indecipherable] We dont know whats best there and it involves the law. But thats not why were here.

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Were here, and we need to follow the directives of this organization. Thats part of your vow. The
meaning of your baptism- with Jehovah.
ERIC B: I have always lived up to my baptism. I dedicated my life to serve God and from that point forward
that has never changed. And it never will change.
ERIC: Do you admit this to us- that you are a part of that spirit anointed organization here on earth?
[Again a loyalty question is asked.]
ERIC B: Now you are wording something real carefully
ERIC: Its the same question, its part of the same question.
ERIC B: I had no idea what those baptism questions were when I stood up there all I heard was do you want
to be a Witness do you want to serve Jehovah forever and I said yes.
ERIC: Do you recognize the questions I can look it up and find it?
ERIC B: Whats interesting is that in 1983 they when they changed question #2, I know the question I know
it by heart.
ERIC: Okay.
ERIC B: In 1983 they changed question. Do you know what the question used to be? Do you accept Christ
as your savior in your life? [Im paraphrasing] And then they changed it, and they added in, Do you accept
the organization? And what has happened brothers is that the organization has become a golden calf.
The organization has now become the mediator. [Looking at Eric:] You know Jesus is not your mediator?
Jesus is not your mediator either. [I pointed to Dennis then because he was shaking his head back and
forth.] Is Jesus your mediator Dennis? I really want to know- Do you think Jesus is your mediator?
DENNIS: Absolutely, through the Faithful Slave.
ERIC B: Wait hold on- Is Jesus your mediator or is the Faithful Slave your mediator?
ERIC: The Slave is a tool that Jesus uses.
ERIC B: But whos your mediator? [indecipherable] If you look that up in the publications youll see that hes
not your mediator, unless you sip the wine and nibble the bread. Thats right out of the Watchtower.
DENNIS: See now, Eric, without having any witnesses, just you telling me that right now, youre telling me
an apostate thinking- youre saying what I feel. I have a right to feel that way Im an individual. [How ironic
that he should be offended by being told what he believes is not in line with the Watchtower!]

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ERIC B: But see it says right here

DENNIS: [Angrily] Did you hear what I said?
ERIC B: Yeah I did.
DENNIS: Thats how I figurethats personal. [indecipherable] If you told that to anybody else the way you
told it to me, disrupting my peace in Jehovahs Organization. I believe that Jesus Christ is the mediator, he
uses the faithful and discreet slave to dispense food at the proper time. The Faithful Slave.
ERIC B: So you cant say that Jesus is your mediator then? [Dennis continues to speak loudly underneath
me, saying I believe it!] Is he your mediator or not? Youre not giving me a straight answer.
DENNIS: Im not anointed! He doesnt come directly to me- I associate with the anointed.
ERIC B: So thats what Im saying, that Jesus is the mediator for all men, 1 Timothy 2:5,6 I believe it is, [says]
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a
corresponding ransom for all
So Jesus is our mediator. We dont have to go through some mythical governing body. The word
governing body doesnt appear in any Bible.
COSMO: I dont pray to the Governing Body!
[All talking at once]
ERIC: Is he appearing here on earth, what means does he use? How is he our mediator?
ERIC B: What does that have to do with what were talking about?
ERIC: That has everything to do with it. How is he our mediator? How do we take provision of this?
ERIC B: Well, Romans chapter 10 will give us the answer Also chapter 8 verse 1. Romans 10:9 says,
[reading:]
For if you publicly declare that word in your own mouth, that Jesus is Lord, and exercise faith in your heart
that God raised him up from the dead, you will be saved.
Its as simple as that, if you publicly declare that Jesus is Lord youll be saved. And then in chapter 8 verse 1
he said those in union with Christ have no condemnation. If were in union with Christ, Christ said I am the
way the truth and the life. If were in union with him, we dont have to call ourselves anything but Bible
Students or Christians

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ERIC: We dont need an organization, or a congregation or anything by those standards.

ERIC B: By whose standards? [There is a pause. I just read a Bible scripture. He clearly does not want to say
the obvious answer to my question, God, and sees the trap he just fell into.]
ERIC: By the point that youre making.
ERIC B: By the scriptures that I just read?
ERIC: By making that one point [indecipherable] There are scriptures that say that Jehovah God is using
them.
ERIC B: And you would have a scripture to prove that to me where?
[All three elders talking at once]
COSMO: Hebrews 10:24.
ERIC B: That says to meet togetherI do that. Christians all over the world have been doing that for 2,000
years. In fact Charles Russell broke away from the Adventists, apostatized from the Adventists, and
started his own Bible study group and then started his own sect.
DENNIS: So youre advocating this over the way we believe then?
ERIC B: No Im saying Charles Russell did the same thing. Was Charles Russell an apostate?
ERIC: Is that what youre doing Eric?
ERIC B: No- Im not.
ERIC: Are you following Russells example? Is that what youre doing?
ERIC B: Im not trying to start a new religion if thats what youre asking.
ERIC: I am asking.
ERIC B: Im not interested in starting [a new religion] There is no new religion to start.
ERIC: [Talking over the top] Are you gonna stop supporting this organization?
ERIC B: Im looking to support Christ. I have been a Christian in association with Jehovahs Witnesses for
30 years. [repeating] I have been a Christian in association with Jehovahs Witnesses for 30 years. Thats

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the best way that any of us could ever word it. I knew an elderly brother that worded it that way I always
thought that was kinda cool the way he said it.
Im a Christian in association with the local Kingdom Hall on such and such a street
So we can be a Christian, if we have a Christian baptism where were immersed in the name of the Father
and the Son and the Holy Spirit then thats a valid baptism.
ERIC: Well Christ lets these things go on in this congregation.
ERIC B: What things?
ERIC: All the things you are frustrated [with] that are wrong If this is Jehovahs and his Sons
congregation, if hes leading an organization, you said you associate. Youre a Christian, associating with
Jehovahs Witnesses, and if you believe that hes the head of this congregation, why would he allow all
these negative things that you brought out?
ERIC B: Why did he allow all those negative things to happen in the first century? Why did he allow the
nation of Israel, his organization at the time to apostatize for hundreds of years? What if we were under
the ten tribe or the two tribe kingdom back then Eric? And Rehoboam said we all need to go and start
worshipping the Baals and the High Places? It was Gods organization? And God was the leader and even
the high priest said we should go do it. Would we have done it? Would we have said,
Well the organization says we should. The king says we should and the prophets say we should.
COSMO: Hold on [indecipherable] can be read out of the Bible.
ERIC B: But what Im saying is that if you blindly follow then the same thing happened in Jesus day. The
organization was the Jewish faith. And the Pharisees had apostatized, they were binding up all these extra
burdens upon the people. Jesus, Jesus was disfellowshipped. When he healed the man that was born blind
he was expelled from the synagogue along with that fellow and from that point forward if the apostles
would have followed the organization they would not have been allowed to speak with Jesus, associate
with Jesus in any way because you couldnt even do business with him you could have no dealings with
someone that was expelled. They chose to disobey the leadership because the leadership was wrong.
COSMO: Why cant you word your question this way: If they told us to serve a God other than Jehovah, I
would say no. [indecipherable] Im done following you.
ERIC: Who do you think has that responsibility to feed the sheep?
ERIC B: We all have.
ERIC: We both are given that responsibility?

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ERIC B: Yeah.
ERIC: So theres shepherds and theres sheep who are the shepherds?
ERIC B: Well theres always been mature ones in the congregation, theres always been older men.
ERIC: Even then ones that are being used by Jesus as head of the congregation would be used?
ERIC B: They can be. He can make the stones cry out.
COSMO: [indecipherable] Who is he?
ERIC B: Well why dont you ask that question in the year 1600? Who was he using in the year 1600?
COSMO: Various individuals that served him.
ERIC B: Okay. Who was he using in the 1700s?
COSMO: The same.
ERIC B: Who was he using in the 1400s? So nothings changed.
ERIC: But that was predicted Eric. That was
ERIC B: Well when Russell came, why didnt he consult with the faithful slave and get direction from them
instead of starting his own movement?
ERIC: [Again speaking over the top of my last sentence] Well [indecipherable] the beginning of that time
period that was ending, that time of apostasy for the congregation?
ERIC B: What scripture says that there was an end to some certain time period? If you could refer to itshow it to me.
ERIC: I could look up the scripture but it might take me a couple [minutes? hours?] You know that very
well [I believe he is referring to the Watchtower chronology of 1914 with all the math they use.]
ERIC B: In the fourteen hundreds in the thirteen hundreds in the seventeen hundreds ever since Jesus
came and died for our sins, people have been meeting together and trying their best to worship God, and
honor the son. Thats been going on for thousands of years. That hasnt changed, its still going on right
now.

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So, just because we say were more right than some other group, doesnt make it so. Just because were
right on a lot of things- Were right about the trinity, were right about hellfire, all Im saying is that we
dont have it all right. And theres thousands of other brothers and sisters that are sitting in this Kingdom
Hall and in Kingdom Halls all over the world that feel the same way.
COSMO: How do you know if they feel the same way in this Kingdom Hall?
ERIC B: Why would I want to inform on some brother and get him hauled before a judicial committee?
COSMO: [Speaking over the top of my sentence] The very mention of others means youve been talking to
others about your beliefs- contrary to this organization.
ERIC B: Thats not how I would characterize it. You can characterize it that way.
ERIC: Is that fair to characterize it that way from our perspective?
ERIC B: No. I dont think it is, but you can call it whatever you want. Christians have been meeting together
and studying together, trying to build one another up for 2,000 years.
DENNIS: But Ericback up, back up.
ERIC B: Brothers and sisters still call me and ask me for advice.
ERIC: So based on what you just said
DENNIS: You didnt answer his question. You said [He now uses a sarcastic voice] Theres thousands of
brothers that feel the way you do.
ERIC B: There are.
DENNIS: In this Kingdom Hall? You just said thathow do you know?
ERIC B: Why do I have to answer that question- are you asking me to give you a list of names?
[All three elders talking at once]
COSMO: I already told you I dont want any names!
ERIC B: I would never give you any names because its none of my business.
COSMO: Then how do you know, unless youve been talking to them about these things?

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ERIC B: Brothers talk all the time. [Cosmo himself said that earlier.] One of the rumors that got back to me
was that Id been cheating on my wife and thats why shes divorcing me. [Which was patently untrue.]
They talk all the time- on the phone, they talk with text, they have gatherings and they talk.
COSMO: What do you think about somebody that comes up to me and says that what do you think Im
gonna do?
ERIC B: I dont know, how would I know? Ive had over a dozen different brothers over the last ten years
approach me and say, This generation change makes no sense. I dont understand it, it doesnt make
sense. [In retrospect I would say this is an exaggeration. It was more like three or four that told me that.]
COSMO: So who says [indecipherable]
ERIC: Saying I dont understand it and saying its wrong?
ERIC B: Theres no scripture to support this overlapping generation thing that no one can really understand.
ERIC: [Speaking over the top of my sentence] Theres something that you dont understand though- theres
a difference- theres a difference between saying I dont understand something and saying its wrong.
DENNIS: And see going back to the Insight book again, theres some things we just have to have faith on,
thats one of the distinguishing marks, I mean, they lacked faith. I dont have answers for a lot of these
questions. [How could he? He has never actually researched both sides of the points being raised.]
ERIC B: But lack faith in who?
DENNIS: Im gonna wait till I hear it from the Faithful Slave.
ERIC B: So you want to put your faith in the Governing Body, thats who were talking about when we say
Faithful Slave were really only talking about these seven, now eight men.
DENNIS: Right.
ERIC B: So you wanna put you faith in them as opposed to Christ?
DENNIS: No, Christ is leading them!
ERIC: Not as opposed to.
ERIC B: Show me evidence that Christ is leading these men.
DENNIS: I dont have to. I have faith that that is the way it is. So do millions of others.

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ERIC B: So is your faith better than my faith?

DENNIS: Youre dancing around this!
ERIC B: No. So is my faith any different than yours? Whats the difference?
ERIC: Do you believe different things? Or do you believe what Dennis just expressed?
ERIC B: I have just as much faith as anybody else in this room.
ERIC: Do you believe what Dennis just said?
ERIC B: Do you believe what Dennis just said?
ERIC: Yes.
ERIC B: Do you believe everything that Dennis believes?
ERIC: [Annoyed] I said do you believe what Dennis just said.
ERIC B: I think that hes right about faith we have to have faith, and Hymaneus and they didnt faith.
DENNIS: Do we have to have faith when the light comes brighter?
ERIC B: But youre only wanting to talk about putting faith in men. And we got lots of scriptures that talk
about that.
DENNIS: I told you earlier that Christ is directing this organization through the Faithful Slave.
ERIC B: But do not put your trust in Nobles. So you are putting your trust in those men.
DENNIS: Yep. Yes.
ERIC B: Thats what youre saying.
[Dennis and Eric talking fast and at the same time]
ERIC B: And how do you know hes using those men?
DENNIS: Because I havent found the truth in any other organization or in any of my apostate former
associates.

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ERIC: Did you find it online Eric? Did you find it somewhere else thats showing you that this wasnt the way
that this is the way you agree with everything that you read?
ERIC B: I found it by looking at our own publications.
ERIC: That is that is false.
ERIC B: Our own publications show that- for example Russell taught
DENNIS: Were a progressive organization. Russell was progressive he stayed faithful to his death.
ERIC B: I do have a point though Dennis if I could make it. Russell taught that the superior authorities from
Romans 13 were the government.
DENNIS: We know that.
ERIC B: Oh nooh no theyre not. [Im about to refer them to the belief of who they were as taught by
Rutherford.]
DENNIS: No! I know he said these things!
ERIC B: Rutherford, after Russell died Rutherford said oh no thats ridiculous thats absurd. The superior
authorities are Jesus and Jehovah. And thats what every single Jehovahs Witness must believe and had
to believe for forty-some years! Then after Rutherford died, all of the sudden they realized that the
superior authorities were governments again. Something that Barnes commentary, Clarkes commentary,
Christian men from the 17 and 18 hundreds that we still refer to today, that are referred to in the
publications all the time, had already figured that out hundreds of years ago.
DENNIS: Uh huh.
ERIC B: Thats not progressive light Dennis. Thats a flip flop. Flip it on, flip it off, flip it on, flip it off.
DENNIS: This is the old organization where you said you dont believe in hellfire, the trinity.
ERIC B: Well theres lots of churches that dont believe in those. Dozens of Christian churches that dont
believe in those.
DENNIS: But thats why we read Joshua.
[Theres a knock at the door. Yet again we are being too loud for the flimsy single glass window and thin
wall separating us from the main Hall where a meeting is in progress. I am curious as to how much they
could hear?]

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ERIC: Eric you gave a very descriptive answer to a basic question. And youre smart guy Eric I know youre
avoiding answering the question straightforwardly and all that.
ERIC B: Because the question was unclear.
ERIC: No thats an easy question. Thats an easy question Eric.
ERIC B: Why is it that that question is so important to be answered by me? Why is it that you have to
have that question answered by me?
ERIC: Its just one of the many questions Eric that when we got the answer we got a very, very, very long
and detailed explanation of it. You did explain yourself and we respect that and your own views. You can
have those. Were not telling you that you cant believe what you want to believe. Were trying to work
with you. And it becomes difficult when you dont answer us [word unintelligible].
ERIC B: I have to answer according to my conscience. Its just like when they ask the president some loaded
question: Is it true that you voted down the bill to protect jobs? Well the bill also had a bunch of junk in it
about this that and the other, so its not a fair question to begin with.
ERIC: [Speaking over the top of my sentence] Do you find [indecipherable] leave the congregation Eric?
ERIC B: See that goes right back to if I dont belive the right way and if I dont answer the right way then
that gives you the justification to do what you gotta do.
ERIC: Do you want to be one of Jehovahs Witnesses and be in our congregation?
ERIC B: See that question is offensive to me.
ERIC: [Sarcastic in tone, fawning ignorance] But I dont know the answer Eric I just want a straight answer.
ERIC B: But why do you need to know the answer?
ERIC: Because Im confused. [Shaking his head] Im trying to understand you.
ERIC B: You brothers invited me here because you said you had accusations from people that claim Im
spreading apostate teachings. One night I texted Sandreckia I was in a bad mood because my wife was
divorcing me and I had been ejected from my home by the law. And nothing had ever been done about it
[congregationally] as far as I can tell from her religious leaders- which would be you brothers. So
ERIC: [Very sarcastic in tone] That means we respect the confidentiality., I know thats something you
appreciate.
ERIC B: Come on Eric.

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ERIC: Its true though Eric I mean were not coming forward telling [indecipherable] because we know
[indecipherable].
ERIC B: All Im saying is, I was having some hard times. So youre gonna say, Okay yeah, Eric was texting
some trash talk or some divergent opinions on something to Sandreckia one night when he was upset. I
poured my heart out to my friend Joe Turner because I was hurting and upset over the things that I had
learned.
When I found out that the Watchtower had been a member of the U.N. for ten years, in bed with the
Scarlet Colored Wild Beast Research that one if you really want to know whats going on. Now if you are
too afraid to research it because you dont want to see both sides of it thats a problem too.
If you were encouraged to shop for a new car but all you ever did was read the brochures from Ford and
you never read any of the opposing things from Car and Driver magazine See thats what were told to do.
We are told to never read an opposing view. Never look at both sides of an issue. Never even address the
concerns that literally thousands of brothers and sisters thousands of brothers and sisters have had
problems with following man-made doctrines.
From 1960-something to around 1980-something it was a disfellowshipping offense just to get a liver
transplant or a cornea transplant. It was considered cannibalism. What about all the brothers and sisters
that died during those years? Was that okay? Was that Holy Spirit that directed that?
ERIC: Dont the scriptures say that those will render an account?
ERIC B: Was it Gods Holy Spirit that was directing the organization during those years? Calling it
cannibalism? What do you think?
ERIC: I dont understand the question though.
ERIC B: The question was from the 1960s up until the 1980s the Watchtower said it was cannibalism if you
were to take a liver transplant, a cornea transplant, a kidney transplant it was cannibalism. Brothers died.
Many of them. Other brothers took the transplant and saved their lives and got disfellowshipped. Was it
Jehovahs Holy Spirit that directed the Faithful Slave to write those articles?
COSMO: [His voice is sarcastic in tone] Well let me answer you in about a thousand words. Im gonna jump
all around it like you do with every question we ask you. You want a direct answer when you ask a question
and you dont want to hear the answer.
ERIC B: Im listening.
COSMO: But thats what youre doing- you want direct answers out of us. I believe in Jehovahs Holy Spirit
in correcting the organization. And I firmly believe that mistakes that were made we all know that

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Jehovah can undo any mistake thats been made. I have full faith in Jehovah. [I guess he says that to imply
that I do not]
Do you still recognize Jehovah as your God?
ERIC B: Absolutely. I pray
COSMO: Im glad you do I just wanted to know.
ERIC B: I pray to him every day. But you see, I still dont feel like- the question was if you, as a man of
conscience, say look, my grandma needs a liver transplant, and then she gets that done, she gets
disfellowshipped, or she doesnt God forbid and she dies, and then a year later the Watchtower comes out
with new light It has nothing to do with new light. It has to do with men writing down their opinions,
printing it on paper.
Is the Watchtower inspired? Or is the Bible inspired?
COSMO: The Bible is but let me ask you a question
ERIC B: I asked several publishers that. Just casually one time. I said to a brother I said, Is the
Watchtower inspired or is the Bible inspired?
Oh theyre both inspired!
Are you sure about?
Oh yeah, theyre both inspired.
I asked three different publishers that, just casually I wasnt trying to tear down their faith. All three of
them without exception said theyre both inspired. We know that the Watchtower itself has said its not
inspired.
COSMO: Yeah.
ERIC B: But dont go against it because if you do youll get disfellowshipped and youll be called a man
that doesnt have faith.
ERIC: Whyd you ask that question Eric?
ERIC B: Because I was trying to figure out- Ive been trying to figure out whats wrong.
ERIC: Im just curious why you asked such a hard questionand Id like to know who it was.
ERIC B: I just told you because Ive been trying to figure out whats wrong. Why is it that theres dozens of
elders online posting about every single thing that happens?

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ERIC: I dont believe theyre out there Eric- you can believe they are I dont believe they are.
[Many talking at once]
ERIC B: So somebody thats not an elder got a hold of the Shepherd book and scanned the entire thing
and put it online? And then they went on and posted a story about what happened at the Kingdom
Ministry school too... What Im saying there are lots of elders that feel the same way Eric- not one.
COSMO: [Speaking over my last sentence] I dont really care Eric. I dont really care about these elders.
ERIC B: I know you dont care Cosmo- but I care. And thousands of brothers and sisters do care. Its
tearing them up inside.
ERIC: Theres about seven billion that are a part of this organization and special to Jehovah.
ERIC B: Seven million?
ERIC: Alright seven million [sighing]
ERIC B: Jesus said he would leave the 99 and try and save the one. Just because there are thousands of
brothers and sisters that realize theres something seriously wrong. Its the same thing with Martin Lutherhe didnt try to leave the Catholic Church, and they tried to execute him. Of course William Tyndell they
did execute. All because he disagreed with a handful of their church dogmas. Now I disagree with a
handful of Watchtower dogmas, and because of that, my head is next on the chopping block. There are so
many brothers that are getting disfellowshipped and they havent done anything wrong. Just because they
disagree
ERIC: But what about Philetus? It was just one issue though.
ERIC B: That doesnt apply to those brothers its a completely different situation.
ERIC: [indecipherable] a different thing than whats being taught in the congregation, the apostle said then
remove them from the congregation over that one issue. There just an issue, theres just a different
teaching.
COSMO: And the thing is Eric, you can have these thoughts and these feelings Due to the mere fact that
you say it and the Watchtower disagree [indecipherable] but you can believe those things. Im not telling
you not to. But when you start witnessing to other people Youre talking about your conscience, but you
dont respect your Joe Turners conscience. You bothered his conscience. And you bothered Sandreckias
conscience. And you upset Walter Bell a little bit. And you upset Mike Luque a little bit. What about their
consciences?

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ERIC B: I would like toSee thats part of what I said at the very beginning. Matthew 18 tells us to come to
the brother and give him a chance to apologize. And I would love to have been able to do that. I had a very
pleasant conversation with Walter and we had lunch a couple months ago. He was very understanding. He
gave me a hug. If I offended him I would love to have the opportunity to apologize to him. And follow the
scriptural admonition that we got. One of the things that Walter said was, he said,
You know this is just a private conversation between you and me. Im never going to tell anybody or any of
the elders what we talked about because its doesnt really matter and its none of their business.

--------------------------------------------------------[END OF PART 4 ON THE YOUTUBE VIDEO]

---------------------------------------------------------

ERIC B: And then he says to me,

Even if you were a full-blown apostate according to the scriptures your wife is supposed stay with you
because youre agreeable to staying with her.
And I said yeah. All I wanted to do was respect her and respect me go to counseling, try to get help. And
then she kicks me out. Then he says well even if you were an unbeliever shes supposed to try and stay with
you and I said I know.
I had already been judged. See thats whats part of whats built into the fabric of our culture. Our culture
as Jehovahs Witnesses from the cradle to the grave we are taught to judge others based on their works.
They dont get enough hours in. They dont show up to enough meetings. It is inculcated right into our,
into the fabric of the way we think.
COSMO: Dont include me in that Eric. Youve been lumping us into how you feel about it. [indecipherable]
ERIC B: I dont have an axe to grind with you brothers but you did that to me on at least two occasions. I can
mention one if youd like to hear it? [He nods] I dont have any reason to counsel you brother its in the
past, it doesnt hurt my feelings anymore. When everybody was supposed to auxiliary pioneer and you
were on your stump telling everybody they should auxiliary pioneer One of the things that I found
interesting is you would always come up to me, and shake my hand, and I would try and say hello and youd
already be turning to go to the next guy to shake the next guys hand. At first it bothered me then after that
I realized Cosmos just trying to get around to everybody, cause Cosmos a nice guy and because you are a
nice guy. One time when you were trying to get every single servant to auxiliary pioneer because that looks
good really good when they all do that, you came up to me,

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How you doing Eric, whatre doing this month you have any plans?
Wow. In my mind I thought, Cosmo wants to know what Im doing this is the first real conversation Ive had
with this brother in awhile. As soon as I started to say how we were going on up to Oregon and we were
gonna do this, the very next thing out of your mouth? Was I going to auxiliary pioneer? And then I said,
Well were gonna be gone for two weeks so I just dont see how.
And then you immediately turned on your heel and went to the next guy. Its built into the fabric Its
built into the thinking Youre a victim of it just like the rest of us are. Thats the way you think Cosmo- its
all about works. Its all about the actions.
As soon as you found out I wasnt on board, [in your mind and on your face] it was, Oh well another
servant thats flaking out on us. [indecipherable]
[Several talking at the same time]
COSMO: Thats fine. Im not going to dispute that. But youre the one I was talking to you- you were on my
mind. And does it look good? No, its encouraging to the congregation when we all do it. Its not looking at
it like we have to like its works not that youre judged because of it, its encouraging to others.
ERIC B: Thats when I realized Cosmo that the conversation had nothing to do with me. It had everything to
do with your goals. And thats all Im saying- thats just built right into the way that we all think [in this
organization]. I know because Ive been in that my whole life. And now Im getting more clarity and Im
seeing Thats not right. It doesnt mean youre a bad person because youre not a bad person.
COSMO: Well well leave that up to Jehovah.
ERIC B: Personally I dont think you are a bad person, you are an example- theres one, theres so many of
those. I mean all the years I was an elder, all the people I disfellowshipped. So many of them didnt deserve
to be disfellowshipped- I just went along with the crowd. I was always the youngest guy in the room Eric.
[turning to him] I was always the youngest guy in the room. [Due to being appointed as an elder at 27.]
COSMO: Youre saying you do want to be disfellowshipped?
ERIC B: Im not even talking about that. This kid he smoked one [marijuana] joint in his backyard, five
minutes after we dismissed him the two brothers go, Oh yeah we need to disfellowship this guy. And Im
like, Whoa! but anyway the point is that when we set ourselves up as judges over others it usually doesnt
go that well. Because all we have is mans wisdom. Thats one of the things that is a serious problem with
the way the organization is set up right now. Its a serious problem.
ERIC: How should the organization apply 1 Corinthians 5 then Eric?

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ERIC B: Youre talking about the scripture that says, quit mixing in company with those?
ERIC: Yes.
ERIC B: Well let me give you a good example. Lets say you have a young man his hormones are up he
commits fornication over and over again hes 17, 18, or 19 with his girlfriend. He gets disfellowshipped,
hes got a bad attitude hes not repentant he gets disfellowshipped. A year or two goes by or less, he gets
married. He does the right thing. Theyre together. Hes an upright person hes got a good job he raises
his kids. But FOREVER he will be shunned, treated as a wicked evil disfellowshipped person. Witnesses
will cross the street to go around him and never speak to him again. Even though hes no longer a
fornicator. You see were taking some situation that happened back in Corinth out of context and
applying it to a status that lasts forever. That shuns people forever. It causes people to commit suicide. It
causes people to lose their livelihood. Its going beyond the things that are written. Im not the only one
that thinks that.
ERIC: I know Eric You dont think we need disfellowshipping.
[Talking over each other]
ERIC B: Theres a place for it, but the extreme shunning goes way too far.
ERIC: You are here to say what the congregation says [indecipherable] so you know
ERIC B: Lots of people have- its all over lots of publishers have [said its too harsh].
ERIC: So you think it takes it toofar.
ERIC B: It goes way beyond the things that are written. The Bible only tells us so much. Anything we add to
that is just our idea of how we can keep control over the people. You know the Baptist church uses Hellfire
right? If you dont go to church youre going to burn in hellfire. What we use at the Kingdom Hall, is that
if you dont go out in service if you dont go to all the meetings youre gonna die at Armageddon. Its the
same idea. To control
COSMO: Ive never heard that said.
ERIC B: I have. [In fact there was a circuit overseer in New York that said word for word, If you dont go to
the meetings Jehovah is going to kill you.]
COSMO: I dont really understand [indecipherable]
ERIC B: Its called by inference. Of course youre not going to say it word for word on your next talk. Its all
inferred.

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COSMO: We say that the right-hearted are trying to help those that are inactive [indecipherable] [he begins
mumbling pretty low. I feel in my heart that he is very bothered by the conversation and these notions hes
never thought of before.] Jehovah really cares about us.
ERIC B: I believe that.
COSMO: And its interesting though how peopleeven like Sandreckia; shes inactive. She heard that, and it
bothered her. She still believes the way she does or else none of us would be here. And, thats what Im
saying if you bother some peoples conscience by expressing your views. And that isnt okay, because
theyre your views, which you figured out and some other people figured out but theyre still [word
indecipherable] views by your definition. So when you proselytize and express these views to others then
what do you do? Youre taking
ERIC B: Youre mischaracterizing what happened. We swapped text messages for
ERIC: [Speaking over the top of me] You can use Joe Turner in that example.
ERIC B: We swapped text messages for fifteen minutes one night, when Sandreckia told me she was
smoking and going out with guys. Which again
ERIC: I think its kinda the same principle that you had brought out.
ERIC B: With Walter 99% of all we talked about was marital advice.
ERIC: I think all the conversations started out that way and we recognized that. [All the conversations?
This was clearly not true and showed me that he did not know much about what was actually said.]
ERIC B: Is Walter one of my accusers? Is he one of the ones that said I said apostate things?
COSMO: He said it bothered him or something like that.
ERIC B: I just find it interesting that Walter came and told you guys this too, when he was the one that [Eric
speaking over the top, unintelligible] and I didnt ask him, I didnt say, Dont tell the elders about this
conversation I never said that I hadnt said anything
[Multiple elders speaking at once]
COSMO: He never said you said [indecipherable] he just said it bothered him.
DENNIS: Walters my nephew. He works right next door to me. Im going to tell you the gospel of what he
told me cause hes my nephew.
ERIC B: Ill believe you.

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DENNIS: He said he went and had coffee with you at Starbucks I guess. He wishes you guys [my wife and I]
could get back together. We dont want to see any marriage fall apart. We wanna get those cards on the
table here. Thats why were neutral on this whole situation going on. [referring to my wife kicking me out
of the house and filing papers on me] [indecipherable] But he did say this:
Im worried about the way Erics thinking. I wish- I hope you brothers can reach him, and help him get back
to meetings.
And thats all he said. Now if you dont think thats love from a brother, I dont know what
ERIC B: I dont have hard feelings towards Walter.
DENNIS: Were not saying you do but thats the brotherly love in the organization that we submit to.
ERIC B: Well there is brotherly love here I never thought that there wasnt. All Im saying is that we have
flaws. We have problems that arent any different from any other Christian group. [Dennis speaking
underneath, trying to interrup] You could take any Christian group, you could go to any Christian church. I
have gone to non-denominational churches as an observer only. And you know what Ive observed? Almost
the identical thing Ive observed here. People hug, they embrace, they go out to lunch afterwards, theres
really not that much difference when it comes to just showing love towards each other, love towards fellow
Christians.
You know, when you read the Gospel accounts you find that a huge majority, a huge chunk of Jesus and the
apostles time was taken up in charitable giving. In feeding, in healing, in helping the people. It wasnt all
just door knocking all day long. Why dont we engage in charitable works? Why dont we do those
things?
ERIC: Are we commanded to? Are we commanded to do those things or are we commanded to preach?
ERIC B: The answers in James. James chapter 1, and verse 27: [reading]
The form of worship that is clean and undefiled from the standpoint of our God and Father is this: to look
after orphans and widows in their tribulation, and to keep oneself without spot from the world.
We are commanded to look after orphans and widows in their tribulations. Thats one of the main things
that Jesus [did] thats why they took up the money box, the collection box- they were feeding the poor.
They were helping the sick. That was a huge aspect of their ministry. That is being done by millions and
millions of Christian ministries all over the world. Not by Jehovahs Witnesses.
DENNIS: I take offense to that.
ERIC B: Well its okay if you take offense to it.

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ERIC: What about the [JW] friends in China Eric? [Huh? I never could figure out what he meant by that.]
ERIC B: Its a drop in the bucket. Its a drop in the bucket compared to what Christianity is doing.
ERIC: [Sarcastically] Whatever.
DENNIS: [Very agitated] Feeding the belly is more important than trying to fill the Bible truths that give
them an opportunity for life? We do both Eric!
ERIC B: I didnt say that.
DENNIS: We do both!
ERIC B: I didnt say that.
DENNIS: Yes you did.
ERIC B: But what did James say? He said that The form of worship that is clean and undefiled from the
standpoint of our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation.
DENNIS: We do that. I do it personally. Cosmo does it personally. I could give you names- I wont- because
of confidentiality.
ERIC B: For seven million Im talking about seven billion!
ERIC: Can we possibly?
ERIC B: Yeah. You know the Watchtower Corporation is worth over two billion dollars.
ERIC: Is that what youre doing?
ERIC B: Im trying, yes.
ERIC: How?
ERIC B: I give charitably all the time.
ERIC: How?
ERIC B: I stop, and donate. I dont think, Oh this is just another worldly organization!
ERIC: Is that religious people? Or do you just do what you can?

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ERIC B: Well everybody does Your question proves nothing.

ERIC: No- it proves we do what we can. We know theres over seven billion people.
ERIC B: The Watchtower Corporation is worth over two billion dollars- two billion dollars!
DENNIS: Eric youre dancing around something here, youre preaching to the choir when you say take care
of widows and orphans. Some can do more than others But I dont know how much you, you
ERIC B: All Im saying is that Jehovahs Witnesses are not the only ones doing these things. Theres
Christian ministries all over the world theres millions of them that are feeding the hungry. That are
preaching the gospel, that are giving out billions of Bibles to people. How did the Bible get translated into
over 2,500 languages? Not by the Watchtower Society. By all these other churches that are a part of
Babylon the Great supposedly. Theyre the ones that are translating the Bible into virtually every
language in the world.
Not us. Not the Witnesses. So all Im saying is that before we condemn, before we condemn every other
Christian church, we need to look at whats in our own eye. Weve got serious problems in this organization
and thats what Ive discovered. Im not out to scratch an itch on somebody that doesnt have it. But if
somebody needs help and encouragement. Im not waiting outside for the friends to come piling out so I
can get them.
ERIC: We know youre not Eric.
ERIC B: Im not actively looking to subvert anyones faith. Im not looking to reduce their faith in Christ like
Hymaneus did or whatever. You cant simplify and boil down something that happened in that
congregation two thousand years ago and say that that applies to what were talking about now.
ERIC: Its just a Bible principle that we follow heres the thing Eric: If you express these doubts to ones in
the congregation See unity glorifies Jehovah, our Jehovah What do you think that does to the unity of
the congregation?
ERIC B: I dont think that the congregation Unity depends on different voices.
ERIC: Oh no, its working shoulder to shoulder and serving the pure language.
ERIC B: Yeah, we can all worship God together.
ERIC: Its not just together, but a pure language a unity. So what do you think that does to that pure
language and that unity?
ERIC B: I think it strengthens true religion and truth.

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ERIC: Causing doubts in others?

ERIC B: No. What strengthens faith and what strengthens true religion is when your beliefs can stand up
to scrutiny, and when youre not afraid of hard questions. When youre afraid of saying the wrong thing,
or mentioning the particular movie that you happened to see or a particular [music] group that you like to
watch.
And being judged because its different from the conscience of somebody else. The weakest conscience
rules- and thats not scriptural either Paul talked about that a lot. Just because we dont all believe the
same does not make us disharmonized or disunified. Theres lots of examples of ones that
COSMO: The scripture says that you should all speak in agreement.
ERIC B: Well what was that referring to? It was talking about belief in Christ, looking to him as their savior.
ERIC: Right.
ERIC B: Thats what it was about- the Jesus show. Ever since he came, it was The Jesus Show. Everything
was about Jesus at that point.
ERIC: So do you think it disrupts the unity of this organization Eric when we spread doubts?
ERIC B: Are you asking me that question because you think Im spreading doubts?
ERIC: Im asking you to express your opinion; its just an honest question. Im asking that question its just
an honest question. Do you think that it disrupts the unity of the organization? I know theres kind of a
hangup [you have] with true Christianity and that this is really Jehovahs organization or it really isnt But
just in this organization, whether you believe in it or not. Dont you think that that would disrupt the unity
of the congregation?
ERIC B: No I dont think it does. I dont think it has to. You see, the organization is a top-down organization,
thats in the publications theyve said that before. Its ruled from the top, theres a self-appointed group
of men that have no checks or balances and theyre the ones that decide policy. In fact did you know that
the only Jehovahs Witnesses on earth that are allowed to have dissenting views are the men on the
governing body? They disagree all the time.
They dont have to have a unanimous vote; they only have to have a two-thirds majority to pass any policy
that affects all seven million of us. They can sit around in a meeting just like this, kick around ideas and
decide the policy for seven million Witnesses. And thats what it is. And then when they want to add a new
member, as long as its somebody just like the rest If youre thinking about making a new elder in the
body you gotta make sure, Is this guy is gonna rock the boat? Or is he gonna play ball with us and is he
gonna go along with the body?

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Thats all theyre thinking about. These are not evil men. But what Im saying is, theyre only men. And
theres lots of evidence that the things theyve written in the publications they werent inspired to write.
They caused the death of thousands of brothers and sisters.
Look, back in the seventies we had articles coming out that oral sex was a divorcing was grounds for
divorce. Brothers and sisters started getting divorces over it. Then they came back and wrote another
article, Er, um, uh, er, well, Brothers [The Elders] arent spiritual policemen. At least not in the bedroom.
Then they reversed it. Then they came back later and its 1983 and wrote an article and said that it is a
perverted practice, and if you or your wife are having oral sex that could be grounds for your being
removed as a servant or an elder. Now where did that come from? Did it come from a Bible scripture? Or
did it come from the prudish mind of somebody that doesnt like oral sex? It certainly isnt from the
Bible. Theres scriptures from Song of Solomon thatll make you blush real good and in Proverbs.
So when you have man-made creeds that are written down, not as suggestions We all know that if it [The
Watchtower] says, It is suggested that we do this or we do that. We know its not a suggestion. We know
that we must obey it. And you brothers have to take the lead in obeying any suggestion from your Slave.
From The Slave that appoints itself. The Slave puts itself up at the top, and you must obey The Slave. If
you dont obey what The Slave says, whether suggestion or not, youre out! Does that sound
COSMO: If I could have my own wayand I wouldnt say it was right, and I was in doubt, I would only be too
happy to obey. And thats the [indecipherable]. You can believe how you want. You cant do it! And youre
worried about getting disfellowshippedThats what were worried about.
ERIC B: No Im not. Im not.
[Several talking]
ERIC B: I already told you- It would be easier for me (And I had somebody even suggest that to me) You
know how you can get out of this? And I said I know how I can get out of this. Id rather speak up and let
my shine. Jesus said dont put your light under a basket. Im not going to put my light under a basket ever
again brothers. I have found out that theres some serious problems. I love Jehovahs Witnesses I love
the brothers and sisters that are here. But I cannot go door to door and tell people things that I know are
not truth.
There are serious problems; thats why you have elders posting anonymously on the internet.
COSMO: Youre gonna keep going back to that?
ERIC B: [I pull out the printout from earlier and point to it and the brothers back away again and actually
raise their hands to block the paper] Theres nothing there- I didnt print anything apostate.

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COSMO: I dont believe a word, you keep going back to these elders like theyre something special theyre
men! Theyre making a mistake in my opinion. So I mean
ERIC B: All Im saying is thatCOSMO: [Sounding frustrated] What difference does it make?
ERIC B: The difference that it makes is that Im not talking about unbelieversIm talking about believers.
Im not talking about apostates Im talking about brothers that have consciences and the courage of
conviction to say, Somethings not right. And
ERIC: [Speaking over top of me] What is an apostate?
ERIC B: [Answering Cosmos question:] We need to talk about it.
An apostate? You can look it up in the dictionary its anybody that doesnt believe what they used to
believe.
ERIC: [Speaking at the same time] Is there anybody you consider an apostate?
ERIC B: Charles Russell was an apostate, the apostle Paul was an apostate, he used be Saul of Tarsus.
ERIC: [indecipherable] So those ones [dissident JW elders that post information online] that you say you
dont consider them apostates, according to this organization would we consider them apostates?
ERIC B: The Society has made a special definition for the word apostate. Theres a letter to the bodies
of elders that even says, You dont have to say a single thing to somebody to be an apostate, if you just
think divergent beliefs, youre an apostate.
Thats a 1981 letter to the body of elders I have a copy of it at home.
COSMO: You keep talking about these elders. You said, youre not afraid to speak out but then you said
earlier that what theyre telling the brothers in their Hall because of what happened [indecipherable] So
take a good look theyre not working in the light
ERIC B: They want to.
COSMO: Well why dont they?
ERIC B: They want to.
ERIC: I think somebodys pulling the wool over your eyes Eric. I care about you, and honestly, I dont think
those are elders.

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ERIC B: Theres lots of them Eric, Ive spoken to them.

ERIC: Are you that firm that you know these guys are elders?
ERIC B: Ive met a couple and Ive talked to several on the phone and Ive emailed many of them, and lookyou can talk for five minutes on the phone to another secretary at another Hall and know whether or not
the guys knows his stuff or not.
Its easy to tell if youve been an elder its easy to tell if this guy was an elder or if hes faking it.
ERIC: Im sorry youve been fooled I really do care about you.
ERIC B: Dude Ive spent a lot of time.
ERIC: Thats what scares me.
ERIC B: No, no, confirming
ERIC: Okay.
ERIC B: Confirming the thing. I dont just read something My wife said, You just read all this and believe
whatever you read!
ERIC: And thats the first thing isnt it? You kinda get worked up and
ERIC B: Look, you dont know you have no idea whos typing up these Watchtower articles.
ERIC: But we can tell if the Bible says so and see that its true.
ERIC B: Every Watchtower theyre not written by anointed people theyre not written by the Governing
Body. Theres nobody on the Governing Body [that we know of] that writes articles anymore there used to
be.
DENNIS: Im curious, you say you talk to elders, and they agree with this?
ERIC B: A number of them.
DENNIS: On what? They agree on what?
ERIC B: That shunning, the extreme shunning in disfellowshipping goes way beyond whats written in the
scriptures. There is a place for it to some degree, and I havent even delved into all the reasoning because
theres a lot of reasoning.

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DENNIS: [indecipherable] topic of study.

ERIC B: Ive talked to elders that have a problem with the way that higher education has been discouraged
for some many years and you have all these brothers that have never saved a dime. Their teeth are falling
out, theyre old and broken down.
COSMO: [Smiling broadly] And arent they happy?
ERIC B: Well, Im glad that you are Cosmo, but were not talking about you right now either.
[Multiple voices talking]
ERIC B: [Looking at Cosmo] Dennis was asking me a question and Im answering- he asked me, Well what
have these elders said? Im telling you. I know at least a dozen of these different that Ive talked to that
have serious problems with certain policies. The way that funds are collected at circuit assemblies, the
way that all the Kingdom Halls are no longer owned by the local friends anymore, it all goes back to the
Watchtower Corporations after theyve been lent the money and paid it back. They basically pay for the
building twice.
Theres a lot of things that bother brothers of conscience. Not dissenters that are trying- or I should say
rabble-rousers that are trying to stir things up. Brothers that are tormented by things that they see as
blatantly wrong.
There was a brother that researched 607 BCE. A regular pioneer and an elder. His name was Carl Olaf
Jonsson. Brother Jonsson was a regular pioneer and his Bible study said, Why is it that every single
archaeologist and secular historian they all say and even the Jews they all say that Jerusalem fell in 586,
587. You guys are the only ones that say 607. And of course we have to stick to 607 or 1914 gets all
messed up.
He spent three years trying to prove 607. He met with various individuals that actually wrote the things that
were quoted in the publications about the Nabonidus Chronicle, etc. thats a complicated subject I spent
hundreds of hours trying to figure it out. This brother spent three years and what he found out is that
theres no support for 607- it cant be right. He sent his research and his findings, hes still an elder, still a
pioneer He sent his findings to the brothers in Brooklyn.
He didnt hear anything for several months. He finally got a letter saying we received your information
were going to look at it, thank you. Please in the meantime do not share this with anyone else, he said no,
no, Im not going to. This has bothered me its a crisis in my faith, theres no possible way that 607 is
accurate, and if its not then 1914s not right either.
About a year went by. And then all of the sudden they called him to an investigation similar to this one.
And said that he was an apostate. And he said, What?? If Ive offended Ill step down I dont have to be

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an elder anymore I have a legitimate this is not right, I know that the brothers are going to sooner or later
theyre gonna do the right thing They disfellowshipped him. Then he published his findings in a book its
called The Gentile Times Reconsidered. Its considered an apostate book [by the WT]. And all it is, is a
scholarly archaeological coverage of why everybody in the whole world except for us doesnt believe in
Jerusalem falling in 607 they all say it fell in 586, 587. I studied that for hours and hours theres no possible
way that Jerusalem fell in 607 in my opinion and the opinion of many brothers and sisters that Ive talked
[with]. Theres one good example.
What do you do? You know that its wrong? But you see the leadership cant..
ERIC: Cant continue to follow the Slaves viewpoint.
ERIC B: The Slave cant, the Governing Body is who were talking about, the Governing Body cant come out
and say, Well [And admit they were in error on such an enormous doctrine] No. So they have to keep
trying to find ways to
ERIC: They can come out and say, Well we
ERIC B: Itll all collapse. Itll all fall apart without 1914. Look at archaeology- if you dont have 1914 that
means that Charles Russell and the Bible Students were not chosen by God in 1918 and so and so on and so
forth and
ERIC: Why?
ERIC B: Well because thats written right in the Revelation book.
ERIC: But why? Why does that mean that they werent chosen by Gods Spirit? [He doesnt understand
whats written in his own literature and he is an elder.]
ERIC B: Because none of those dates are right theyre all wrong.
ERIC: But if dates are taken out of the equation it doesnt mean that Jehovahs Spirit is taken away.
ERIC B: I know youre trying Eric, but you gotta study that stuffERIC: Im trying to understand it.
ERIC B: Because your question doesnt make sense.
ERIC: I really am Im trying to understand Because how can Jehovah how can he give them his Holy Spirit
then?

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ERIC B: What Im saying is, that this brother of principle, is yet another spiritual martyr, executed by the
leadership- by the Watchtower Society. Because of what he discovered. And what his conscience after
years of study and prayer and agony told him. He was smeared he was called they said he was lacking faith
in The Slave. He wasnt lacking faith hed been waiting on Jehovah for three years.
DENNIS: Eric I was just quoting you I wasnt saying you were lacking faith.
ERIC B: I know.
DENNIS: You looked at me like I was saying you were lacking in faith.
ERIC B: Alright.
COSMO: One thing that kind of perplexes me in everything, is that if these people were so disgruntled
[indecipherable] I just dont understand it. Why are they talking to other people about it? What do they
think theyre gonna do? I mean nobodys gonna stop me from doing what I want to do. I just dont
understand it.
ERIC B: I do have an answer for that.
COSMO: [indecipherable] Thats not their responsibility.
ERIC B: Everybody needs somebody to talk to. When every single family member and every single friend
and even your employer are all Jehovahs Witnesses and your conscience is in agony because youve
figured out something that the Watchtower Society was a member of the UN for ten years- the height of
hypocrisy, part of the Scarlet Colored Wild Beast for ten years,
[Sarcastically] Oh well er um uh we we we just wanted a library card thats why we did it!
Maybe youve read the letter I dont know if youve done the digging on that or not. Its in the file. That was
the excuse. When people find out about these things they have nowhere to go. They turn to drinking,
they turn to anti-depressants, weve got lots and lots of those brothers and sisters in every congregation
Ive ever been in. Lots of them, because they dont have anyone they cant talk to about it, they have to
keep it all bottled up inside. They have no support and their entire life has been isolated from anybody
thats not a Witness. So who they gonna talk to when they find out some of these things?
Its easy to say, Oh they should just leave! Nobodys holding a gun to your head
COSMO: What Im talking about is why they dont step aside as elders?
ERIC B: A lot of them have; most of them have.
COSMO: Or theyre anonymous.

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ERIC B: But some of them stay on.

COSMO: Im aware that they stay on, I dont understand why they dont just step aside.
ERIC B: Well weve already answered that- theyre staying on because they feel its so important to get out,
to shine a light on all the secret stuff. The secret elders handbook, the loopholes that are in that book.
[Both talking at the same time]
COSMO: What I dont understand is how is that a positive thing in subverting other peoples faith?
ERIC B: Who said theyre subverting someones faith?
ERIC: Well whatever they [indecipherable] online, theyre subverting
ERIC B: You guys got a letter from the Governing Body about all the varying degrees of pornography
recently. [See letter to the bodies of elders dated April 10, 2012] That was the most bizarre letter All
these different rankings and what kind of porn is okay, and this kind of porn isnt as okay, and that kind of
porn is really bad this kind of porn is not so bad. And if its only this kind of porn then the brother can just
get a slap on the wrist but if its that kind of porn then oh hes in much more trouble
Where does this stuff come from? Does it come from the Bible? Or does it just come from some old guys
mind? Do you see the problem?
ERIC: But where did you get this from? A website?
ERIC B: The elders that are dissidents the conscious class Google conscious class. Youll find lots of
brothers that call themselves that. Theyre part of the conscious class theyve awakened to the problems.
Google that. Were terrified, Witnesses are terrified of googling anything and reading anything thats
against the Witnesses. Theyve been told its poison. Thats a bunch of baloney.
ERIC: Its not. I think [indecipherable] spiritually.
ERIC B: You have a right to your opinion.
[Many talking at the same time]
ERIC B: Theres lot of brothers that because of their conscience, they have the courage of conviction to say
this is nuts this is wrong to exert and to say this kind of sex is okay and that kind of sex isnt okay.
Divorces disfellowshippings Back in the 70s you could have relations with a sheep and the wife was
not allowed to divorce her husband. And then they went and changed it a few years later.

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ERIC: I like the humility thats shown you know by the governing [body] thats something I really I
appreciate. You bring up these points of way back when, and now its different.
ERIC B: Its not different. Its still going on. I know more about whats going on in the organization than
any of you brothers do. Because its all out there online. Youre just afraid to look at any of it. Youre
terrified to look at it.
COSMO: Where do they get their information from?
ERIC B: Where does the New York Times get its information from?
COSMO: What Im saying is, why do you target [tarnish?] something- theyre working in darkness.
ERIC B: How would you know that?
COSMO: Well because, theyre not being honest in telling the brothers how they feel.
ERIC B: They are being honest.
COSMO: Well theyre telling you. And youre saying some are still serving but theyre serving by their rules
ERIC B: Most of the ones Ive made friends with have stepped down because of their conscience just like I
did.
COSMO: Now that I understand.
ERIC B: I couldnt stomach it anymore. I love the friends
ERIC: [Sarcastically] I thought you had health problems? [Spoken in reference to when I stepped down
from the body I cited health problems as a reason.]
ERIC B: Well I do have health problems.
ERIC: I know.
ERIC B: But that was the easiest way to do it without rocking the boat and causing all sorts of problems.
Because I was Asaph for two years. [See Psalms 73] I didnt want to talk about it because I didnt want to
discourage somebody else. I knew that there were serious problems. I didnt realize how bad it was until I
did more research.
Ive read court transcripts [about] Rutherford. He was sued more than one time. Rutherford was an
alcoholic the entire time he was president of the Watchtower Society everywhere that Rutherford went,
he had one of two young female secretaries that stayed with him wherever he went. His wife and son

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never traveled with him and were in California the whole time. Rutherford was not a man of God. All you
need to do is look at whats on record with the court and the libel and slander and all the stories on
Rutherford, its shocking.
ERIC: You gotta [indecipherable] thats not slander too.
COSMO: Rutherfordif he did those things thats on him.
ERIC B: But thats what Im saying. To perpetuate this myth that the Watchtower Society is a perfect
organization run by imperfect people Ive heard that ever since I was a little kid- its not true. I was there.
Multiple times I saw Governing Body members acting like they were kings of the castleyelling at people.
Barking orders at people. I never talked about it, because it wasnt encouraging.
DENNIS: Can I say something real quick?
ERIC B: It was discouraging.
DENNIS: The organization is not perfect Eric. You just said it is.
ERIC B: Thats what Id been taught for years
DENNIS: Who says that?
ERIC B: The friends do. I cant even tell you how many times Ive heard it.
ERIC: I dont think were a perfect organization.
DENNIS: Can you accept the fact that its wrong?
ERIC B: Well thats what Im saying- can you accept the fact?
DENNIS: Absolutely! But the organization run by Christ Jesus is perfect
ERIC B: The organization isnt perfect.
DENNIS: [indecipherable]
ERIC: So does that mean youre not gonna follow the lead of Jehovah- I mean Jesus, as head of the
congregation?
ERIC B: I appreciate you saying that [Ignoring Erics nonsense question] all Im saying Dennis is that Ive
heard that probably a hundred times over all the years Ive been to the Kingdom Hall that its a perfect
organization run by imperfect people.

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DENNIS: Its about as close as we can get at being perfect

ERIC B: But its not.
ERIC: Ive heard it called a spiritual paradise
ERIC B: I heard that phrase a zillion times maybe it was just a phrase they used in the congregation I was in.
Thats all Im saying.
ERIC: It can still bother you but you cant let that cause you to doubt the whole body of truth thats
presented by Jehovahs organization.
ERIC B: But I dont doubt the body of truth thats presented by the Bible.
ERIC: Yeah.
ERIC B: From the Bible. As soon as you start adding to this [pointing to the Bible] then you are made a fool
then you are made a liar when you start writing letters about what kinds of porn is okay, and what kind
of porn isnt okay, youve already gone beyond. When you start making all these rules, thats what the
Pharisees did- they added hundreds and hundreds of rules on to the people.
They couldnt just read the text of the law- that you couldnt work on the Sabbath. They had to make
hundreds of rules about what you could and couldnt do on the Sabbath.
Weve done the same thing with blood transfusions. [There are] hundreds of exceptions- you can take
cows blood now- Hemopure thats all it is purified cows blood. A few years ago you couldnt, but now
you can. So the brothers and sisters that didnt take that and it was the only thing that might have helped
them, died. But now its okay, because the HLC [The Hospital Liaison Committee] has changed their stance
on that one.
ERIC: Well what Jehovah is gonna do is resurrect the person and thats what matters.
ERIC B: It sure matters to the people that lost their loved one that died.
ERIC: Sure. But Jehovah can fix it. And those ones that stayed faithful to the rule of Jehovahsure those
ones have lost loved onesthey know theres a resurrection. But theyre staying loyal to Jehovah.
ERIC B: Well Im loyal to Jehovah.
ERIC: I hope you didnt hear that in the way that it sounded Loyal to Jehovah and to the Organization.
[Here he ties together these mutually exclusive loyalties in the JW mindset- Jehovah and the Watchtower,
connected at the hip.]

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ERIC B: So where in the Bible does it say we have to be loyal to a man-made organization?
ERIC: Im just Thats a totally different subject now Eric.
ERIC B: But thats what youre talking about.
ERIC: No, no. Im just saying that a lot of people experience that and remain loyal to Jehovahs
Organization [His voice trails off to a mumble as he finishes the sentence and its obvious he knows he
screwed up on this one.]
ERIC B: Right. Yeah. Thats too bad- that they are gonna be loyal to a man, that they are gonna put a man
above Christ. Theyre gonna put a man above the Bible.
ERIC: [Speaking over me] There might be a prevailing spirit of independence there [on the internet]
because a lot of complaints that you expressed from others
ERIC B: Uh huh.
ERIC: It seems like there might be the spirit of, Nobody should tell us what to do.
ERIC B: Have you been to any of those?
ERIC: No.
ERIC B: Well you really wouldnt know then right?
ERIC: I know what you told me.
ERIC B: It just depends- Im not consumed with going to websites. I dont need to go to that many websites
anymore, to try to figure out the truth about the truth. I know The Truth About The Truth. [TTATT]
ERIC: Do you currently go to some websites?
ERIC B: Well sure.
ERIC: You just said you dont.
ERIC B: Knowledge is power. I said I dont go to apostate websites. And I dont.
ERIC: Do you consider them apostate websites?
ERIC B: I dont know- do you want me to give you a list and then you go to them?

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ERIC: No because theres only one website we go to and you know that.
ERIC B: Dont you go to CNN.com?
ERIC: [Speaking over me] You know where we go Eric as smart as you are
ERIC B: Do you go to Yahoo.com?
[Cosmo joins in, all are talking at once]
ERIC B: Whats wrong with doing research on a public talk and typing into Wikipedia about land mines
because you want a statistic about war?
COSMO: Thats different.
ERIC: Were talking about doctrinal things. Well Jehovahs Witnesses teach this I dont need to go and
look at those things, to try and defend the truth.
ERIC B: If I had a friend that was a Mormon- a devout Mormon, and they were convinced that Joseph Smith
got those golden plates and that it had really happened. If I said to my friend, Just research it. Please
research it with an open mind. and they said, You know what Ill do it.
And then they read every piece of literature they could from the Mormon Church about it. They talked to a
Mormon elder in their congregation and they came back and said they said, Look I did a bunch of research
and it is true!
And then Id say well did you read anything written by secular [non-Mormon] sources? Did you read
anything by former Mormons?
Well no, no I would never do that.
So did they even really get the whole story?
ERIC: I dont see the point.
ERIC B: Well hold on, Im talking about my Mormon friend, did he really get the full story of whether that
story is true or not? By only reading Mormon literature is he really gonna get the whole story of whether
the golden plates are true or not?
ERIC: Do you need to talk to a persons enemy to find out the true story?
ERIC B: You didnt answer my question.

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ERIC: Because I dont understand it. [Hes being combative and disingenuous at this point IMO. Its
Theocratic War Strategy where he feels he must prevaricate in order to not give an embarrassing
answer.]
ERIC B: Did he get the full story?
ERIC: If its all he was able to read then sure.
ERIC B: No. If I said look research it, the feasibility did he really get these solid gold plates and were they
written on by the Angel Moroni and he took them up in a flaming fire and took them away? Its a ridiculous
story we know it didnt happen in real life.
What Im saying is a sincere believer in that religion if all he ever knew was to read that religions books he
would never have a chance of seeing both sides of the story. If all you ever do is read one side of
something, and youre never willing to entertain both
The Watchtower makes reference to apostates attack this or tear down that, but they never actually
address what anybody thats a dissenter what their actual complaint is. What is it? Why is it such a big
secret? Lets get it out in the open! The truth can withstand up to any examination. The truth can stand
anything that we throw at it. If its not the truth then its gonna fail [under the weight of] a lot of
knowledge. Not just one side of the story.
Thats all you get when you read the Watchtower on a certain topic, like 607. Youre never going to get any
of the other side of the story. Youre only gonna get the side that reinforces the vital importance of the
number 607, without which 1914 collapses.
Now, maybe you dont think 1914 is that important but you look in the publications thats a pivotal year
everything hinges on that. If 1914 isnt accurate, then that means that the Gentile Times might not be over
and we might not even be in the last days yet.
ERIC: And then what?
ERIC B: I dont know you tell me. All Im saying is
ERIC: Thats what Im saying serve Jehovah not because of a date but because hes Jehovah.
ERIC B: Thats my point. So why
COSMO: It never bothered me about 1975. [At least from 1968 onward Watchtower literature and its
representatives had predicted the world would end in 1975.]
ERIC B: A lot of people did. They sold their houses.

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COSMO: [indecipherable]
ERIC: So if I wanted to get to know a person, I wouldnt talk to their enemiesto be honest with you. I
would talk to I would come to you.
ERIC B: Im talking about a doctrine or a teaching.
ERIC: Theres a lot of negative things out there about the Mormon Church and I could go that route if I
wanted to know what Mormons believe. I wouldnt I would just go to them to find out what they believe. I
dont need to know if this is or isnt the organization Im looking at what the enemies are doing.
ERIC B: Im not talking about enemies of the organization Im talking about a doctrine or a teaching. Is that
teaching true is it really in the Bible or not?
ERIC: Then you can do research on that.
ERIC B: Yeahthats what Ive been doing.
ERIC: You dont need to go on the internet and see what other people believe.
ERIC B: Well you can go to the library too. Ive been to the library too.
ERIC: What Im saying is that you can become a little overcome by it. It can prove the Faithful and Discreet
Slave right but then it could be somebody online.
ERIC B: You can go to the library and look up and find Crisis of Conscience. Have you ever heard of Crisis of
Conscience?
ERIC: No.

--------------------------------------------------------[END OF PART 5 ON THE YOUTUBE VIDEO]

---------------------------------------------------------

ERIC B: You dont know what that book is?

ERIC: No.

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ERIC B: Thats the book written by Ray Franz, he was a member of the Governing Body.
ERIC: Wasnt he disfellowshipped though?
ERIC B: Not for anything he did. Its because they needed to get rid of him. Thats what Im saying.
ERIC: It wasnt a smart question
COSMO: You talk to him personally?
ERIC B: No he passed away a couple years ago. [Cosmo looks visibly relieved at hearing this] Why do we
have books that are banned? I thought we were living in America but yet theres books that were not
allowed to read. Websites were not allowed to go
[All talking at once]
ERIC: Not from ones that are disfellowshipped
ERIC B: King Solomon became an apostate; we shouldnt read anything he wrote in Ecclesiastes.
ERIC: But Jehovah inspired him to write it. Franzs book isnt.
ERIC B: Its still there for us to read.
ERIC: That youve been overcome by. So we are slaves to whomever we are overcome by.
ERIC B: Im not overcome by anybodyby any man. I dont worship any men, I dont put my faith in any
men.
ERIC: Franz hasnt influenced [you]?
ERIC B: Theres a lot of people that have influenced me, Martin Luther influenced me a lot he stood up to
the Catholic Church he helped start the reformation. Theres a lot of Witnesses that hope and pray that
therell be a reformation because our policies are way too strict, theyre harsh. Theyre legalistic
ERIC: I dont buy it. And Im not taking that [indecipherable] I dont buy into that. To me that is the spirit of
independence.
[About 6 seconds goes by and no one says anything]
ERIC: The awkward silence
[All laugh]

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COSMO: Im thinking about some things and no one is gonna tell me different. I wouldnt want to be a
part of something that I didnt believe in. I just dont understand why all these people want to hang on to
this organization if theyre so I think
ERIC B: Well theyre trapped. And if youd read their stories you would understand, theyll make you cry
theyre so sad. There are brothers and sisters that desperately want to have Christian freedom but they
cant. They desperately want to worship God without having all these man-made creeds imposed upon
them. They cant.
COSMO: They cant?
ERIC B: Theyll lose everything they have. Theyll never get to see their grandbabies again. How would
you like it if you were never allowed to see your grandkids again? How would you like it if your wife
wouldnt talk to you and divorced you? How would you like it if you lost your job All these things
happen. All of a sudden you could just say one or two things that goes against what [sarcastically] The
Truth is
Well no one has a corner on the market on the truth. But if you go against it, thats it. Youre executed.
youre spiritually executed youre cut off
ERIC: Christians are killed all the time and they are literally executed, even faithful servants of Jehovah.
ERIC B: Lots of faithful Christians are executed.
ERIC: It shouldnt stop a person from expressing the truth. Like Cosmo brought out light doesnt dwell in
darknessERIC B: Tell that to the elderly sister that doesnt believe in 1914 and wants to see her grandchildren
theres lots of them. Theres lots of brothers and sisters that are trapped they cannot get out. Because if
they do theyll never see their loved ones again, their grandkids will be taken away, their families will be
taken away. Some people will instantly lose their job, thats why they cant leave. And they occupy a seat
[at the Kingdom Hall.] And you can tell they really dont want to be here, and its sad.
COSMO: I just dont understand it. I justdont understand it because I gave up my family when I came into
the truth fifteen years they wouldnt talk to me. But I knew this was the truth. And I just dont understand
it.
[indecipherable] If you really believe what you believe, you will stand up for it regardless the cost. I would
never put my thinking about a matter online, for other people to be influenced by it- thats my thinking, Ive
come to that conclusion myself personally. And when you put that up it is influencing other people. And
when you put that up believe it or not it does influence other people.

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ERIC B: Uh huh.
COSMO: Theres a lot of people not as strong as you Eric and maybe theyre influenced to believe
something that they wouldnt have. And you hear my point?
ERIC B: And thats your opinion and I respect your opinion.
COSMO: I just dont understand [Poor Cosmo he seems sincere and is just so caught up in a loop so to
speak at this point]
ERIC B: The problem is when somebody doesnt respect the opinion back, its not reciprocated. See, if
somebody says to me, Well, I think its okay to pray to Jesus, or I think its okay to worship Jesus. You
know what, Charles Russell believed the same thing. Russells writings, if you go back to the 1800s and
the early 1900s all the Bible Students prayed to Jesus.
COSMO: Im not a Russellite- you keep bringing that up!
ERIC B: I know because theres a reason. The reason is, you have your conscience, and I respect it. What if I
said, I think its okay to pray to Jesus, that we cold pray to Jesus right now Youd think that Im a
Trinitarian, even though Im not.
ERIC: We wouldnt share the same faith- theyre totally different things.
ERIC B: No, we would share the same faith.
ERIC: No.
ERIC B: Christian.
ERIC: No its totally different.
ERIC B: A Christian is someone that loves Christ, that is following Christ.
ERIC: A true Christian.
ERIC B: Okay so if somebody prays to Jesus and they feel that thats okay you know Paul prayed to Jesus
three times. And Stephen prayed to Jesus right? In Acts chapter 7?
ERIC: Id have to do research on that Eric. [He means lookup what the WATCHTOWER stance is on it of
course.]
ERIC B: I could read it to you

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ERIC: You dont have to read it to me.

ERIC B: You dont have to do very much its right there, as they were stoning Stephen: [looking it up and
reading it]
Stephen being full of Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven, caught sight of Gods glory and Jesus standing at Gods
right handand then he said Lord Jesus receive my Spirit. He cried out with a strong voice.
The apostle Paul prayed to Jesus three times for that thorn in the flesh to be taken away. And I didnt get
this from my own idea, I got it from the Watchtower- Russell wrote about it years ago. And it made a lot of
sense. And Ill be honest with you, what Im saying is, why judge Russell, or me or anybody that says that,
because its slightly different from what you think is right?
DENNIS: Back up Eric, youre still going back to Russell. I mean, Russell celebrated Christmas.
ERIC B: Sure he did.
DENNIS: Is that okay?
ERIC B: I dont know Ive never celebrated Christmas before.
[Both talking at once]
DENNIS: Well I dont know because youre telling me its okay because Russell prayed to Jesus. But we cant
celebrate Christmas because he did.
ERIC B: I didnt say everything that Russell did [Dennis still talking] Russell might have been a pedophile
for all I know, but I dont think he was.
ERIC: Its a Christian holiday isnt it?
ERIC B: I dont know if its a Christian holiday
[Dennis still talking in the background]
ERIC: [Eric talking over him] If a person expressed that Christmas was okay would you say we shared the
same faith?
ERIC B: Thats false logic that has nothing to do with what Im talking about.
ERIC: Well, no, its, itspart of being a Christian right according to people that celebrate Christmas.

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ERIC B: No. I dont know where Christmas came from [in the discussion] all I was saying that just because
one believes something slightly different than another, is that enough to say hes a false Christian? Because
thats just what you said a minute ago, that if somebody feels that because Paul prayed to Jesus and
Stephen prayed to Jesus then if they feel its okay to pray Jesus in certain situations, then theyre not a
true Christian
ERIC: [Talking over the top] Because thats what we believe, yeah.
ERIC B: Thats your opinion, but youre not respecting their belief. And youre condemning that person
saying theyre a false Christian.
ERIC: [Sarcastically] We dont condemn them by not believing them Eric. We dont condemn people.
ERIC B: But if you call somebody a false Christian arent you condemning them?
DENNIS: Who said a false Christian here?
ERIC: Well I didntI said true ChristianI said true Christian.
ERIC B: Well yeah thats the implication then they are not a true Christian.
ERIC: [Agreeing] Right, right.
ERIC B: Im not a true Christian if I dont go the Kingdom Hall?
ERIC: Well is there true Christianity and false Christianity?
ERIC B: Theres lots of true Christians, theyre in every church
[Multiple voices talking at once]
DENNIS: But arent there some false Christians?
ERIC B: I mean I guess if theyre robbing banks on the weekends?
ERIC: If theres a true Christian theres a false Christian.
DENNIS: [Frustrated] So a true Christian can believe in hellfire and the trinity and eternal torment? Thats
okay? Thats a true Christian?
ERIC B: If you think it is I guess, I didnt say that.
[Multiple voices talking at once]

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ERIC B: All Im saying is that when you start when Dennis starts deciding what a true and a false Christian
is, then were already in a pitfall you are taking your conscience and exerting it upon your brother.
ERIC: If we express it to them. They can already tell youre a false prophet.
ERIC B: Or if you do something like kicking them out of the congregation and shun them right?
[Theres a long pause]
ERIC: Express that again
ERIC B: If you want to make creeds and doctrines, and you want to force everyone to believe those creeds
and doctrines, and if they dont believe them, you kick them out and you shun them and excommunicate
them, or disfellowship them
COSMO: If they share those views with others. If they subvert other peoples faith.
ERIC B: Ive never subverted anyones faith.
COSMO: You came into the congregation and you told people things they didnt want to hearquite
frankly.
ERIC B: Then I want to apologize and stop and not do that again to that individual. Im not out to try and
hold up a picket sign in front of the District Convention or something thats the worst thing in the world
because all it does is just confirm that youre a judgmental person if youre doing that, I dont believe in
that.
ERIC: You have to understand our position and thats to protect the unity of the congregation.
ERIC B: Theres nothing to protect if youre talking about me.
ERIC: Were talking about protecting the unity of the congregation as the three men sitting here that is our
concern.
ERIC B: Right. I dont attend this congregation anymore I havent been here in over a year.
ERIC: You still associate with ones in the congregation.
ERIC B: No.
ERIC: Like Walter.

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ERIC B: No.
ERIC: You guys talked together?
ERIC B: I asked Walter how he was doing. [He had recently stopped serving as an elder, why I do not know
and I sent him a text letting him know I was thinking of him]
ERIC: Right and thats what Im talking about.
ERIC B: Wow
ERIC: You are carrying on association with ones in the congregation.
COSMO: You said you talked with Walter [indecipherable] you already told us that.
ERIC B: I was speaking in a general sense
[Multiple voices talking at once]
ERIC B: I dont consider that associating.
ERIC: Its all the same in my mind.
ERIC B: I dont find that associating. I havent attended in over a year.
[indecipherable]
ERIC B: Ive already had publishers that Ive seen at the store walk right past me and refuse to even talk
to me, and Ive never been judicially accused of anything my whole life.
ERIC: Im sorry Eric, but that happens you know.
ERIC B: Well its a systemic problem thats what Im saying. Its part of the way weve been taught. Weve
been taught to judge anybody thats different by outward appearance its part of the way were
taught. Its built right into everything its built right into Bethel I saw it over and over when I was there.
ERIC: Well again Im sorry for the imperfections Eric, you know its in [indecipherable] organization.
ERIC B: Im not talking about imperfections. Im talking about a policy.
ERIC: But that stems from human imperfection.
ERIC B: Everything cant be reduced to imperfection that doesnt cut it.

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ERIC: So what do you do with it then? What do you do with it? What do you let it do to you?
ERIC B: Honestly the last six months or so Ive been doing better and better- my prayer, my study, my
mental health. Ive felt great. The most stress that Ive experienced has really come from dealing with being
invited to this meeting, dealing with my wife who is suing me for everything that Ive got and is trying to
restrict me from even seeing my own children. Thats the only stress I have in my life. My mental health and
my happiness has gotten radically better. The only source of stress has been this stuff basically.
ERIC: We dont want to do that Eric. You know, and if you look back to the past few months Hopefully you
can appreciate our love for you. I talked to you on the phone and I said lets put all this aside and we only
care about your marriage and helping you and Michelle. And thats when we were gonna meet and
something happened that day and we were unable to. But I do hope that you appreciate that there is a love
on our part for you and a concern for you.
ERIC B: The reason we didnt meet?
ERIC: No thats okay Im not talking about that- thats my fault [At this point they DO NOT want to talk
about my marriage, as they had likely not counseled my JW wife on all the rules she was breaking which the
elders were well aware of.]
My point is that I want you to be able to see that we care about you, thats my only point.
ERIC B: Well I know you do. I never thought those guys dont like me, theyre out to get me. I know that
you guys have affection for me, that you love mebut I also know that you must follow the Watchtower
playbook.
ERIC: We follow the direction of the Faithful and Discreet Slave.
ERIC B: You follow the creeds and policies of the Watchtower. You must. You have to.
ERIC: We do. Youre right.
ERIC B: You have to.
ERIC: Weve chosen to.
ERIC B: Yeah. And I think the Bible supersedes that. I think that if you start hunting every single tiny little
thing [indecipherable] and this kind of porn is okay but that kind is worse, youve already shown that
somethings not right. Somethings out of whack. Thats pharisaical. They had hundreds of rules about the
Sabbath. Hundreds! [indecipherable] So thats what has happened. The Watchtower Society has generated
hundreds and hundreds of rules of what we can and cant do, and its not right. Its going beyond whats
been written. As soon as you add something to the scriptures, youre out of youve already gone too far.

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ERIC: I appreciate what youre saying Eric, and I understand. I just want you to go away knowing that the
congyou are missed here.
ERIC B: I know that I am.
ERIC: We care about you deeply. And I want to make sure because weve had a lot of discussion tonight.
ERIC B: I appreciate that.
COSMO: Were going to dismiss you for a little bit
[I left the Kingdom Hall and went out into the parking lot. My friend, a former JW himself was out in his
vehicle waiting, for moral support. We had talked for only about three minutes when the elders came back
out into the parking lot to speak to me.]
[In the parking lot]
ERIC B: I was just talking to my friend I didnt expect you to be done so soon.
ERIC: [Sounding quite nervous, his voice shaking] We did not give you a chance like we promised you, to
talk to your witnesses and we want to make sure that you have that opportunity.
COSMO: You pretty much you pretty much qualify for that.
[I had a choice to make at this point. I could go back inside, they make a conference call to my friend Joe
Turner and then we go over all that same ground. I would have a chance to ask him questions, like, Did I
subvert your faith Joe? Is your faith in Jehovah damaged? I knew I could make a strong point, but I did not
want to make Joe uncomfortable over it all. Even though he had abandoned the friendship with me and
turned me in, I didnt want to cause him additional stress. The same goes for his estranged wife,
Sandreckia. I knew what they were going to do regardless of the additional testimony and drama of calling
them, as I had already incriminated myself in their eyes as a dissident thinker.]
ERIC B: I wasnt trying to fake you out
COSMO: We know.
ERIC: We promised you an opportunity to do that and we want to make sure that you can do that.
ERIC B: You mean like call them up right now or something?
ERIC: Yes.

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ERIC B: No I dont want to putlook I love Joe and Sandreckia. Especially Joe, I mean Ive been friends with
Joe for over 20 years. I dont want to put them through undue stress. Right? Its not going to change
anything.
ERIC: Its no different than what you expressed Eric but we didnt want to we didnt want to
ERIC B: Thats fine. No loopholes for me to wiggle through I understand. [They know that they must
follow Watchtower procedures very strictly and to the letter, since I know them as well as they do, possibly
better. They also have been advised by the Watchtower Legal Department in New York to do everything by
the book and report back to them once the problem is stitched up. This is making them extra careful.]
ERIC: We want to make sure you are respected.
ERIC B: [Smiling] Yeah Just get it done so you can get back to your wives and your families bros. I know
whats happening next. Just go ahead and figure it out and Ill be waiting.
[The elders walk back into the Kingdom Hall]
[My friend and I talk about the situation it in the parking lot for several more minutes. I will include a small
portion of this conversation]
My Friend: So what do they want you to do now?
ERIC B: Im waiting for them to deliberate so they can come back and tell me that they are going to DF me.
My Friend: [Laughing]
[After only about 15 minutes the elders ask me to come back into the Kingdom Hall. I walk in and sit down
again.]
COSMO: Eric we didnt come to a decision this evening.
ERIC B: You didnt? [I was very surprised]
COSMO: We didnt. We want more time to think about this. Were gonna meet together.
ERIC B: Okay.
COSMO: And uhwe will try to resolveuh this as soon as possible. But we will contact you as soon as its
come to its conclusion. Weve got some things to think about.
ERIC B: Well weve gone a long time

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COSMO: Well we want to do the right thing. We dont, were not quick to just to develop things. So, so,
and you could have some patience with us? And well try to resolve this as soon as we can. But I will contact
you if thats okay with you.
ERIC B: Okay. Yeah.
COSMO: Before we go can we say prayer?
ERIC B: Sure.
COSMO: [Praying] Jehovah our Father we are grateful that we can come to you and talk to you. We
appreciate the time we have spent this evening. We understand that there are many things to consider, we
are dealing with important matters. We pray that you give us the wisdom and strength to do it correctly.
We ask that you help not only Eric but all of us to see clearly your way and the things we must appreciate
and value in life.
We know that we make many mistakes, [indecipherable] and we do Father pray that you help us to
[indecipherable] So we thank you for the willing spirit tonight, and we do come to you through your Son our
King, Jesus Christ, Amen.
[All say Amen]
[I went back to the parking lot again, and felt relieved that it was over, but yet it really wasnt. I was
dumbstruck as to why they had not arrived at a verdict that night.
Upon reflection I feel it was because they wanted to call the legal department and ask if they dotted all
their Is and crossed all their Ts but I will never know. I was called back to the Kingdom Hall two days
later, right after I got off of work.]
[Kingdom Hall back room, two days later]
ERIC B: Im sorry Im not dressed I had to dash here straight from work.
COSMO: Sorry for keeping you waiting, it took a little longer. Why dont we open up with prayer. [Nods to
Eric]
ERIC: Our heavenly Father we certainly want to thank you for the provision you have given us to be guided
by you. Tonight we want to ask that your spirit be with us as we deal with this matter. Hopefully we can
have a good heart towards one another and you. We ask that your spirit be with us and we be open and
honest and truthful with one another and give honor and glory to you. We love you very much Father and
express this prayer through your Son Jesus Christ, Amen.
[All say Amen]

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COSMO: Again thank you for coming back tonight. Our decision is to disfellowship you Eric. If you feel
theres been a serious judgment in errorI mean a serious error in judgment, then you have the right to
appeal and you have seven days. Put it in writing, and address it to the judicial committee.
ERIC B: I understand.
COSMO: Eric did you have a scripture you wanted to share?
ERIC: Yeah. Hebrews chapter 12:5-7I like the way this puts it:
My son, do not belittle [the] discipline from Jehovah, neither give out when you are corrected by him; for
whom Jehovah loves he disciplines; in fact, he scourges every one whom he receives as a son. It is for
discipline YOU are enduring. God is dealing with YOU as with sons. For what son is he that a father does not
discipline?
And so Eric, what you said the other night about a spiritual stoningthis is not a spiritual stoning, you
dont come back from a stoning. You dont come back from a stoning. This you can come back from, and
we want you to come back from this. This is just discipline from Jehovah. Maybe in the old days we used to
have to stone people. But Jehovah sacrificed his son, so that we dont have to do that anymore now you
have the opportunity for forgiveness of sins.
If you truly repent Eric, and turn around, you can have that. So dont look at it like this is a spiritual stoning
its not you can come back from this. I speak on behalf of all the brothers, even the congregation, who want
you to.
ERIC B: You know if I could, Id like to share something that just happened last night that relates to that. A
friend of mine gave me a couple of tickets to a Toto concert. So I went to the Toto concert with a friend,
and it was unbelievable, almost in the front row. And I look over my shoulder about five rows back its Dave
and Sheila Ingram. So I went up to them and said, Hey how are you guys doing? And they like looked off
in the other direction. So I sat down [in an empty seat near them] and I just didnt get it at first, because Im
still not disfellowshipped until its announced, and I would hope that they dont know about these
proceedings
But obviously they knew something because they proceeded to shun me. And I said, Is this the first time
youve been to Toto before? And Dave refused to look at me and he was doing this [Showing them how
he was turning his head away looking off into the distance as if I wasnt in front of him] And at that point- I
wasnt trying to be annoying or rude- it sort of dawned on me and I thought to myself, Theyre shunning
me. And there hadnt even been a decision made yet but obviously theyve heard something.
ERIC: Well we hadnt made a decision yet [indecipherable]

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ERIC B: The last time Ive spoken to Dave and Sheila was only about positive things, theyve been over to my
home for dinner Ive been to their home for dinner. So I looked at Sheila and I said Sheila whats wrong?
Is everything okay?
And the anger, and the hate in her face was so sad. And she said, [Angrily] Dont even talk to me! I dont
even wanna see you!
So I stood up, and I said to her, I just want you to know that I dont have any hatred in my heart for you.
Goodbye. And then I walked away. But you see brothers, it goes right back to what we talked about a
couple nights ago. There is a problem, with this veneer of love. This little thin veneer of love that
Jehovahs Witnesses have is not very deep, and its based on conditions. IF you do these thingsand IF
you show up at the Hall, Ill be your friend. But if you dontIm not going to love you anymore. Im going
to shun you now.
Even though nothing has been announced. Now obviously theres been something whispered into their
ears from someone. [Of course Sheila is friends with my ex-wife so we know where they got their
information from.]
ERIC: [Feigning ignorance] Well who would it be?
ERIC B: What Im saying is that its not just Dave and Sheila. Theres Dave and Sheilas all over the place in
the organization. And you know 2/3 of the people that are disfellowshipped dont come back.
ERIC: Well Im glad that you said that Eric. Because I want you to still think of yourself as having that desire
to be part of Jehovahs organization. We want you to be Eric.
ERIC B: Yeah I appreciate that you want that. I dont want anything to do with a man-made organization
that shows conditional love. Love thats based on pioneering, love thats based on only what you do. And
thats what I have seen. And not just here. Ive seen it in New York, Ive seen it all the different places Ive
lived.
And thats why Im telling you brothers this is a problem that you three brothers cant solve here locally. I
certainly cant solve it locally it goes all the way to the top. And theres a serious problem thats my point.
ERIC: We cant deny imperfection Eric. And what Dave and Sheila did to you we cant justify that either.
ERIC B: It goes beyond Dave and Sheila.
ERIC: There was probably a reason whyyou know, Im sure. And I dont know. Who knows?
COSMO: [indecipherable] We understand exactly what youre saying. [indecipherable] We know how it
feels.

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DENNIS: You know thats the hardest thing there is to deal with Eric. I was removed as an elder. And about
a year later I had a brother ask me, he saw at assembly, and he said, Oh I see youve been reinstated.
ERIC B: Yeah.
DENNIS: You know my mother, bless her heart, she taught me The Truth when I was five. My dad hated The
Truth. He beat her you know the typical scenario. And it wasnt because of that, I just thought there has
to be some substance to this because people talked [gossiped] about my mom in the congregation
She should have done this, she should have done that. She should have left him but she stayed. The whole
point was I remember when I was a young teenager and I said, How in the daylights did you put up with
this garbage?
And she said, Just remember one thing if you ever get baptized and I hope you do... I didnt get baptized
till I was 15, my dad burned the books and everything else, as far as he was concerned I was never going to
be a Witness.
Just remember that 50% of the friends are in The Truth to test the other 50%. Now I know youve
probably heard that a zillion times but you know Ive had to live by that because there is never going to be a
day when there is going to be no Sheila and Daves and all people that just come up and love us at least
this side of Armageddon and I hope I can convey this to you again youve been on this side before.
ERIC B: I have.
DENNIS: Yes you have. And you know words are easily spoken, but Im going to speak in behalf of these
brothers We have agonized over this. Over trying to help. If you dont think
ERIC B: I believe it.
DENNIS: Im trying to hold back tears right now. If you dont think this is Christian love I dont know what
to tell you. And Im not saying this is as good as it gets but there are those in the organization that truly
do try to apply the principles of Christ-like love.
ERIC B: I believe that too. And I guess my agreement but also my slight differences is that there are
millions of wonderful organizations of Christian people that do the same thing. And Im starting to see
that just because everybody doesnt quite believe the same, the love is there. 50% test the other 50% in a
lot of Christian churches.
The myth that were the only ones that have love- is just that. And now I know because Ive explored, Ive
researched with an open mind, not a closed one that refuse to go anywhere but JW.org. If you think
youre getting all the facts- youre not Eric. If you think you can read only Watchtower publications and
learn The Truth About The Truth you cant- its impossible.

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COSMO: Before we close do you have any questions.

ERIC B: No. Im quite familiar with [all of] this. I have one scripture I wanted to share and then I think were
done?
COSMO: I just wanted to make sure you dont have any questions about anything.
ERIC B: Okay. The scripture that I had in mind is in John 16. I read this to you brothers not in a spirit of
anger, not in a spirit of accusation, because thats not what I mean when I read this to you. But I feel there
is a parallel here.
John 16 Jesus is speaking to his followers. [Starting with] verse 2 he says:
Men will expel you from the synagogue. In fact, the hour is coming when everyone that kills you will
imagine he has rendered a sacred service to God. But they will do these things because they have not come
to know either the Father or me. Nevertheless, I have spoken these things to you that, when the hour for
them arrives, you may remember I told them to you.
So I do feel that this is a spiritual execution. And I do feel that its definitely going beyond the things that
are written. I didnt used to feel that way in the past. And so to me, whats appropriate to do right now is
for me to pray. And thats what Im going to do right now. [I bow my head and begin to pray]
Heavenly Father please be with Dennis
COSMO: Eric! [Cosmo tries to break in, then decides not to. The rest of them are stunned and silent as I
continue to pray and I can feel their eyes on me as I continue the prayer:]
ERIC B: Please be with Cosmo and be with Eric. Forgive them for the sins they are committing. Dont charge
it against them. We know that when they stoned Stephen he said the same thing. And Father I know that
these men are sincere but I know they are misled and that one day [hopefully] they will open their eyes to
The Truth About The Truth. Please help me not to have anger in my heart or resentment towards these men
because I know that they are just trying to do what they think is right, and they are under the control of the
Watchtower and its corporations.
This is what I feel from my heart Heavenly Father, and I know that you are listening to our prayers, and that
you love me, and you love these men as well. And I say this prayer in Jesus name, Amen.
[There is a stunned silence. The elders do not say Amen of course.]
ERIC: WellI think there is just one last scripture that you wanted to share Dennis? Or not
ERIC B: I dont think its necessary brothers. I really need to get going.

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COSMO: Thats fine.

ERIC B: I know that you may have not wanted to share in that prayer but I felt that I needed to say it. And
Ill continue to
COSMO: Were not a master over you Eric.

[The judicial meeting is adjourned and I am free!]

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APPENDIX:
LETTER SENT TO THE ELDERS ON 6/3/2012 EXPLAINING THE SITUATION THAT I WAS UNDERGOING:
[Certain sections and names have been redacted]
6/3/2012

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To:
Eric [last name removed] and Dennis [last name removed]
From: Eric Bottorff
Re:
My situation and my wife

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To begin, I ask that this letter be kept confidential and not passed from elder to elder as is sometimes done
unnecessarily as you know. Please restrict this information to the men assigned to handle the case. I ask
that you agree to honor this request before reading further. There is a very specific reason I ask this, which I
think you brothers are aware of since it was addressed in the recent past. If this letter has been handed to
someone other than the ones listed above, I ask that you please respect confidentiality and my wishes as your
Christian brother and stop reading any further.

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After letting my wife know a couple nights ago that I was planning on speaking with you two brothers, I
asked her if there was anything that I needed to know about. She then told me that she spoke to Eric [last
name removed] on 5/27/2012 and told him about my secretive ways. I asked her what she said but she
would not elaborate, and I left it alone at that point to keep peace. Brothers I have been under a tremendous
amount of stress and pressure in the last few years, more so than any other time in my life. This has caused
me to get under the care of a Dr. and be put on anxiety medication, which has helped. During this time I was
doing much deep study of the Proclaimers book and the older publications referenced in it, ones written in
the late 1800s and early 1900s. The more I studied, the more questions I came to have, questions that I
realized I could not answer if someone raised them. One example from recent times is what has been
published about the "generation." While I found the explanation about the generation (first published in
1995) confusing, I am even more confused about the "overlapping generation" explanation.

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But the main purpose for this letter is so that you can understand what I have been going through, and what I
am dealing with at home regarding my wife. On at least four occasions in the last year Michelle has said she
wants a separation or wants to leave me, and once she said she was considering a divorce, even though she
knew she had no scriptural grounds but was okay with that. Each time I told her that I loved her, and wanted
to work it out and that I would never leave her or be unfaithful to her. I read her scriptures and we studied
articles about how Jehovah hates a divorcing and how the Bible says we should stay together. I have tried
very hard to work with my wife and show her love and respect, as the weaker vessel.

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But there now appears to be a pattern developing that is quite disheartening, and at first I did not want to
believe it. My wife has denied rendering the marital due in any measurable way for over two years. Even
kissing or embracing is often denied. About two months ago I put my hand on her shoulder and told her I
thought she looked pretty, and she pushed me back and said, why dont you just use your hand tonight?,
implying that I should masturbate on my own. It has been difficult living in a relationship where I love my
wife and she does not appear to return those same feelings. I have tried to give her time, bought her flowers

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many times, rubbed her feet, on and on, but she is not interested in giving me marital intimacy. Once when in
frustration I said that it wasnt good for me to have these unfulfilled desires, she stated that I should go out
and find a woman that will do all the things I wont do for you. I couldnt understand why she would goad
me in this way; it didnt make sense for her to dare me to do such a terrible thing. And now there are these
charges she has fed you. I do not know exactly what she told you, but for reasons that are apparent to me I
feel they should be taken with a grain of salt. As you know, there are two sides to every story. I want you to
understand the atmosphere in our home as that will make it clearer.

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For the last 2 1/2 to 3 years it has also been quite a challenge to get my wifes support when conducting the
family Bible study. At times she would get up and literally leave while it was in progress, as I struggled to
get the children to sit still. Often she would send and receive text messages in her lap during the study, sit as
quietly as a stone and not make any comments, or complain that she was tired and ask if we were almost
finished. After it got particularly bad, I spoke to her in private. She said that she did not respect me and found
it hard to accept me as her head, attributing it to her upbringing and the fact that she takes after her father. I
asked her what she thought her dad would say to her about this behavior, and she admitted that he would
want her to respect the headship arrangement. I continue to take the lead with my family, but it is apparent
that she chafes at any family decisions made that do not coincide with what she feels should be done.

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As for what she told you, I cannot say with certainty. [redacted sentence] My goal is to regain my spiritual
balance, to fight off negative feelings and thoughts and improve my relationship with Jehovah and with my
wife. This is my complete focus lately. The last few months had actually been getting better, or so I
thoughtand now this situation has arisen, and it makes me long for the day when I can just fall asleep and
wake up in paradise.

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I study the Bible every day, and I pray often. Here is my day to day life: I work, come straight home, cook
dinner three times or more per week, spend time with the children, help with their homework, etc. I do not
yell, do not swear or raise my hand against my family, and my entire paycheck goes to buy things for my
wife and daughters. Yet sadly, I have come to the realization that some part of my wife wants out of the
marriage, to the point that she may be willing to put away her mate using whatever means she can. She has
withdrawn the marital due, show little respect for headship, and now apparently is seeking to get me thrown
out of the Christian congregation since I have not been unfaithful to her as I suspect she had hoped. It is a
terrible, terrible realization but all the signs and clues she has left me points to this. (Malachi 2:13-16)

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I know that I am not a leavening influence in the congregation, as I really have no dealings with anyone in
the congregation at this time. No one calls me or texts me. No one comes over. I do not wish to discourage
anyone, or spread any untruths of any kind (Psalms 73; Psalms 1:1) and have love for all the brothers in our
area and am not aware of anyone that has something against me. If someone does, I would want to settle it
quickly and speak to them directly. (Matthew 5:23-24; 18:15-17)

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More than ever I want to be found acceptable to Jehovah, and his judgment counts, for the passage in Isaiah
quotes Jehovah as saying, You are my witnesses. Claiming to be a Christian does not make one a
Christian, and simply claiming to be one of Jehovah's witnesses does not mean that Jehovah recognizes one
as being such. I am open to receiving counsel and discipline from my Heavenly Father and from any brother
that feels I need it. I love the truth and I love the scriptures. Please believe that.

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I have ceased attending meetings for my own mental and emotional health at this time. My goal is to meet
with my brothers and sisters again when I can safely do so; I know it is very important. Paul said in 1

Page 80 of 83
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Corinthians 4:4: For I am not conscious of anything against myself. Yet by this I am not proved righteous,
but he that examines me is Jehovah. This is quoted so you will know that I am not engaged in any secret
sins or a double life, and feel close to Jehovah God on a daily basis. He examines me, and I will stand before
him and his judge Christ someday, probably soon. (John 5:22-24) Please understand that one of the reasons
that I am reacting this way has to do with several negative rumors that have come back to me and which
appear to have escalated to slander of my name and reputation. One rumor was that I was disgruntled due to
being passed over and not made an elder again, which is patently false as you know. This was told to me
by a brother who said it was a topic of discussion in his car group in field service. The other slanderous
rumor was told to me by my wife- she said that at least two sisters approached her, asking her Are you and
Eric going to try and stay together despite what happened? When pressed she was told that they heard I had
cheated on her, which is of course untrue, and that was why I was deleted.

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Since gossip is a recent topic of a local needs part, and Eric, you yourself told me that it was a problem in the
congregation lately, it seems apparent that part of the rumor mill was cranked up due to the incorrect
announcement from the platform last year that Brother Bottorff has been deleted. You know and have read
my letter explaining why I stepped down. I have never committed any gross sins since dedicating my life to
serve Jehovah, and have never been judicially reproved for anything. For many years now the Societys
instructions to elders is that when a person is deleted or steps down, the announcement is always the same
regardless: Brother [name of person] is no longer serving as an elder [or ministerial servant].

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Yet no retraction or correction was ever made- the botched announcement that I had been deleted even
though I simply stepped down and resigned stood for all to hear, impugning my reputation and fueling the
gossip fires. Would that cause you emotional pain if it happened to you? Unfortunately my wife and
daughters have already felt the sting of some that feel that they are now bad association due only to the fact
that I no longer attend meetings. Recently I told my wife that she should invite the [family name removed] or
[family name removed] or another family in the congregation over for dinner. She said that they likely would
not come, and that she had tried to invite some over already, but they felt uncomfortable due to the fact that I
might be bad association. Even a sister that has an unbelieving mate would not receive this type of snubbing.
So in that way I am now treated as less than a person who does not even know the true God. The [name
removed] family has greatly curtailed their friendship with our family and now limit association between
their daughter and mine, applying a guilt by association rule to her, as [my daughter] is no longer welcome
to sleep over at their home, and [their daughter] is not allowed to come over to our home to play anymore. I
have spoken with my wife about it, and she said it has caused her hurt and distress. Has the [name removed]
family personally marked me? Their actions indicate they may have. My understanding is that marking is
an elder body decision and not to be done by individuals. At any rate, I explained to her that we are all at
different levels in our spiritual maturity and hopefully someday the judgmental attitudes harbored by some
will be rooted out of their personality.

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To recap, I am not in good health at all at this time, but am still willing to meet with you in the future and get
whatever counsel and assistance Jehovah wants to give me. I ask that I have time to regain a calm heart
(Proverbs 14:30a) and try and work on some of the problems that exist in my marriage. I will not and do not
speak negatively about you brothers or any of the friends, as that is not my way and never has been. Thank
you for your help and your kind consideration of this lengthy letter. I also thank you for honoring my request
that this information be kept confidential with you brothers.

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With Agape Love, Eric

Page 81 of 83
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ORIGINAL LETTER RECEIVED FROM ELDERS VIA REGISTERED MAIL, DATED AUGUST 19, 2012:
[Portions Redacted]

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MY REPONSE TO THE INVITATION TO MEET WITH THE ELDERS:

August 23, 2012

Cosmo, Eric, Dennis, and other elders who may be reading this:

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I recently received your letter dated 8/19/2012. I want very much to meet with the
three of you brothers to discuss these allegations and find out who is saying these
things about me so I can follow Matthew 5:23-24 if at all possible. I also want to be
right with Jehovah and live up to my dedication to him and to his Son by doing this.

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As you can probably imagine this has been a very painful time in my life. To have
my wife sue me in a public court, with my name listed as the respondent and her
name listed as petitioner in these divorce proceedings is a horrible experience
that I do not wish on any one of you. Michelle is suing me for child support,
alimony, the house, our Luxury SUV which was just recently paid off, as well as
suing me for all her legal fees even though I do not want a lawyer and begged her
to get counseling with me. And this of course does not even touch on the fact that I
was kicked out of my home some two months ago based on false accusations
presented to the court that I was a violent husband, something that is patently
false. I am anxious to know what has been or is being done to protect my name
and reputation from this ongoing slander.

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At any rate, the only problem is that the August 30th date is indeed a hardship and
impossible for me to attend. Could we please reschedule for September the 5th at
that same time of 6:30pm? I am sincere in my desire to meet with the committee. I
await your acknowledgement of the requested date change. When you respond, I
wonder if you could please answer this question for me:

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Do I have the right to face my accuser, and hear what it is that bothered them? Will
that person (or persons?) be there to give testimony so that I can finally find out
what it is that I have done or said that has precipitated this judicial trial?

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I do not want to gloss over or go around Matthew chapter 18 or Matthew 5:23-24.

When we meet on 9/5 please allow me to follow these scriptural admonitions that
Jesus gave to all of us- that is very important to me.

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With Respect and Agape Love,

3461

Brother Eric Bottorff

Page 83 of 83
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IN CONCLUSION, SOME FACTS ABOUT THE TRANSCRIPTION THAT MAY BE OF INTEREST:

There were about 29,000 words spoken spanning about 79 pages in Microsoft Word format on standard
8.5 x 11 pages.
The first meeting lasted about 2 hours and 50 minutes and the second follow-up meeting to give me their
decision lasted about 20 minutes.
The youngest Elder named Eric spoke 256 times. Cosmo (the chairman) spoke 156 times. Dennis spoke 80
times.
In the course of the meeting I spoke 452 times.
The name Jehovah was used 91 times. The name Jesus was used 61 times.
The Watchtower Organization was mentioned 124 times and The Faithful Slave or Governing Body was
mentioned 47 times, for a total of 171 times which is more than the use of Jehovah and Jesus
combined.