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Kittler
Author(s): Matthew Griffin, Susanne Herrmann and Friedrich A. Kittler
Source: New Literary History, Vol. 27, No. 4, Literature, Media, and the Law (Autumn, 1996),
pp. 731-742
Published by: The Johns Hopkins University Press
Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/20057388 .
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of Writing:
Technologies
Interview with Friedrich A. Kittler
Matthew
Griffin
and
Susanne
Herrmann
Perhaps
was more
the desire
of communication.
I'm
universities?is
talking about the materiality
or Paris,
I see exhibitions
like the ones in Marbach
fascinated when
the
with
dealing
writer's
his
tools-of-trade,
writing
material.
These
had
such
widespread
effect
that
everyone
is aware
now
that
so-called
trend
is heading,
the book
has gained
its actuality.
732
The
NEW
of
concept
studies"
"cultural
as new
is not
as
LITERARY
HISTORY
seem.
it may
There
in Germany;
the
are, in fact, five such institutes for Kulturwissenschaften
one at the Humboldt
has existed some thirty years. That was, of course,
else back then. I don't know what it was like. It's not our job
something
not interested
in decon
the past. We're
to rehash and work through
some of the human
like
sciences
have
infinitum
ad
ourselves
structing
ourselves here in the
been forced to do in recent years. We understand
in the face
institute as an attempt to pose cultural-theoretical
questions
of technology.
Does cultural studies still think of itself as a continuation of the sociophilologic
based sciences, if one considers their division into disciplines such as English,
French, and German literatures, and soforth, to be obsolete?
that the movement
Yes and no. I think we all understand
away from
can
I did
monstrous
create
For
basis
the philologie
example,
problems.
for the
and it worked
a recent seminar,
"Aesthetic of the Colonies,"
a
as well as myself
because we could automatically
students
expect
and
the
could
certain philologie
everyone
languages
speak
competency:
had, for the most part, read the books. There has always been in the
basis for
a firm, that means mega-technologic,
disciplines
philologie
no
canon
is
referential
drifts away. There
work. In cultural studies every
no
model,
no
and
standard,
You're
curriculum.
what
to do
free
essentially
also have
to hope
the
does the study today of culture differentiate itselffrom, say, the critical theory
the Frankfurt School in the sixties, if one takes
practiced by the sociologists of
n?
sociology to be "the study of society
How
the
include
throw
numerous
everything
German
Luhmann
thinker
declares
media
away. Even
at
the
that
moment,
it to be useless
a culture,
constitute
Luhmann
but
is at wit's
what
society
you
don't
is, no
have
to
is the best
end. He
one
can
say.
Niklas
gies,
733
OF WRITING
TECHNOLOGIES
to Derrida
which
of analysis
Of
an
however,
Germany?with,
in contrast
concept
shuts
he
course,
important
something
shuts
it seems,
returns,
. .
out:
something
Luhmann
difference.
of text,
out.
the
observer's
s
concept
of system,
to a hermeneutic
theory
blind
spot.
He
can't
so that
take that into account. He has to constantly change his position
is that he naturally can't
he can see yesterday's blind spot. The problem
spot the new blind spot, which has allowed him to spot yesterday's blind
but he doesn't
spot, and so on. He takes all that into consideration,
out of a molehill,
mountain
unlike Derrida who,
make a philosophical
with every sentence he writes, wants to have his cake and eat it.
s blind spot the old blind spot within thephilologies?that
they don't
or
own
medium?
this
the
site
cultural
their
Is
studies
takes
spot
up as
reflect upon
a theme? I am thinking of thePergamon Museum
in Berlin as a prime example
Is Luhmann
of
at
science
blind
work.
colonial
nineteenth-century
Schliemanns
politics.
"
"archaeology of the present. How
past archaeologies?
We
all, Derrida,
have
described
the
your
and
Luhmann,
are
excavations
You
work
myself,
using
dark
project
side
as
of
an
methodolo
varying
in
interested
the foundation-less
as a structure.
The
the
of white
of
irruption
an
event
in a museum,
artifacts
into
of something
foundation
for
afterwards
are
example,
or
structures
apparent
which
first
functions
acquired,
reduction
noise,
endowment,
the
and
attenuation
of
the
contingency,
the moment
be of more
reduction
of violent
interest to
me.
These
two
theoretical
tendencies
are
also
evident
as
tendencies
archaeologic
in
the
result
is a
simulacrum
of knowledge.
Those
are
for
me
two
examples
of
an
734
NEW
which
archaeology
hasn
to
't
managed
the shadow
escape
LITERARY
its
of
HISTORY
paranoid
origins:
been
the
guided headphone
You
can
critique
is that
Pergamon
say what
and
what
the
I can't
inside.
majority
of
the museums
like,
Andreas
they
cant
Huyssen
hear
has
We'll
you.
called
the
are
visitors
it.
imagine
on
thing
the voice
return
later
"museumphobia"
to the zombie
of
the avant
garde. I wonder, however, if you wouldn 'tmind saying a few words about your
intellectual history. How did you come into contact with French poststructuralism?
is almost part of France, and I spent a lot of time in
Freiburg
we
where
read Lacan in seminars with French psychiatrists.
Strasbourg
in itself, that he spent the
Lacan visited us once, and that was wonderful
entire day with us.
to visit Freiburg
to see where
Derrida wanted
because
he wanted
had
where
had
and
where
eaten,
lived,
Heidegger
Heidegger
Heidegger
had fallen in love, and that's why he liked Freiburg. He never stopped
Well,
talking
about Heidegger.
And Foucault?
in person. The worst
I only have a few letters, I never met Foucault
me
meet
I
is
that
he
died
before
could
him.
He was the most
for
part
me because he was the most historical. That's
all
for
of
them
important
why he's the best to use and carry over into other fields. The people who
apply Derrida's
plagiarists,
and
method
are
for
to other
the most
fields
part
often
boring.
work
Lacan
like
wasn't
imitators
so
good
or
for
735
OF WRITING
TECHNOLOGIES
itself in
couldn't
Franco-Germanic
way of thought
quite maintain
but no one
California. You could explain Goethe, Val?ry, or Descartes,
at
to know so much about them. What the undergraduates
really wanted
Stanford, for example, wanted were short formulas. Then I realized that
to work with the Japanese
and Chinese
they were right. They had
because Asia is actually closer to California
cultures as well as European,
than Europe. They couldn't hold every single European
country under
some
were
a magnifying
There
also
physicists among the under
glass.
to
German
and
learn
about
wanted
who
history
simply
graduates
literature. They asked me what I thought about the theory of relativity.
Since I didn't know a thing about relativity, I went to the library and
of
transformation
then that the technological
started reading. I noticed
what we know, in terms of literary science, is the only thing that can be
transmitted
and, in fact, comes across, indeed, justifiably comes across,
in short, means
the
because
translating and applying
literary science,
to
structures
structures of the Gutenberg
those
of
the
electronic
age.
age
We transport those things that are similar, and the other, which can't be
carried over and communicated?that
is, the poet's Geist, the state of his
soul?we
leave
out.
or
transformation
in a natural
German
and
seminar
tomorrow's
entropy
science
you
encyclopedia
about entropy
me to be much
would
have
found
student
literature
at
the
the
Fourier
article
ten years
ago
miserable
small,
Cornell,
about
a well-written
checked
the
trast
read
in a
article
seems to
and a long article on Goethe. The relationship
in America. When Thomas Pynchon was
better balanced
and
twenty-three
and
If you had
lexicon.
out
to find
you want
so you
over
go
then
interdisciplinary,
was
much
easier
he
could
and Bolzmann.
them?later
he
the disciplines,
in America.
browse
That's
studied
in con
736
NEW
LITERARY
HISTORY
or mathemes,
to each
section.
How
would
you
characterize
these
two
equations?
I had the following
in mind: a sine
(Kitder goes to the blackboard.)
curve can be derived from Euler's equation,
that is, it's an equation
for
on
is
I
other
the
had
Bolzano's,
hand,
analog output;
digital.
originally
mottoes
from Borges and Casta?eda,
but I thought they were too poetic.
the formulas. Euler's formula, which
is actually
So I hid myself behind
more
was
wave
the
sine
than
I've
indeed
described,
just
simple
complex
a breakthrough
some seventy
in mathematics.
Both equations appeared
to the discourse
networks
which
Euler's
years prior
they describe.
sum is from 1830.1
formula is from 1735, and Bolzano's nonconvergent
to place both systems in the shadow of their mathematical
do
wanted
as
constant
of
had
described
functions
such
Euler
ability.
growth
growth
and compound
intro
interest, which are in effect the organic models
in their literature. How does something
duced by Goethe
and Herder
an individual grow more
more
intelli
independent,
grow? How does
is a
more
in
free?
Goethe's
for
Wilhelm
Meister
gent,
question,
example,
of compound
interest. Around
1900 the discrete
systems from
to
to Claude Shannon
The
model
is almost too
appear.
begin
a
it
establishes
because
between
binary opposition
binary and
simple,
a little more
I
it
think
could
be
made
nonbinary.
complicated
today.
question
Bolzano
Everyone wants to know what the discourse network 2000 looks like? I'm
not in such a hurry, besides
it can't be written.
I would
be more
one can't just leave it at the
in 1700 because
of
interested
Republic
have been written
here
in the past few years
Scholars. Dissertations
that is, the age of Leibniz and
which make it clear that the late baroque,
it out to be.
is not so simple as Foucault and myself have made
Descartes,
These
figures
gramophone,
to write
like
Descartes
to
are
part
or
film,
a
book
computer
of
our
radio
present.
are based
about
Descartes
The
mathematics
come
and
from
modern
this
upon
time
which
period.
geometry?from
graphics.
the
I'd
You
737
OF WRITING
TECHNOLOGIES
the role
mention
in
literature
of
and
processing
transmitting
new
technolo
bureaucratization,
the nuclear
family.
Pynchon,
one
in
expression
the cinema.
The
V-2
rocket,
at
the end
of
writers,
of your favorite
on
Rainbow
its optimal
a
trajectory
from Swinemunde toward the Orpheum Theater in L.A., describes the transfer of
culture industry. What are the
Nazi military
technology to the Hollywood
contradictions between the two media novel and film in the twentieth century, if
for
example,
you
the novel
consider
nineteenth-century
art
form?
Can
the novel
do anything besides describe its own obsolescence? Would you say a few words on
the novel and film as media?
The human
sciences
of the nineteenth
century, such as statistics,
and so forth, are carried over by Goethe,
administration,
cameralistics,
as we've said, into literature. The novel takes part in the development
and rise of the new sciences of the eighteenth
century, for example,
contrast
to
in
the
old
sciences
like medicine
administration,
population
faculties. The whole experimental
research of the
and other medieval
nineteenth
century
record movement.
and
gramophone
to
attempts
find
out
how
one
can
measure
and
I am still interested
of the
today in the development
as
a
means
in
the
first
stylus,
telegraph's
are
too
to
which
fast
be
phenomena
the early
natural
recording
place
observed. Film dealt in the beginning
the movement
of
with recording
bodies. A science which no longer dealt with individuals or subjects, as
the administrative
sciences of the nineteenth
century had done, rather
film. The sciences
with naked bodies, joined up with the new medium
and control of the individual
that deal in turn with the organization
the bourgeois
with
the
subject. Media
theory can dispense
require
of
notion
The
of man
technological
left
over
media,
from
in
the
human
postmodernism's
sciences.
"gay
apocalypse,"
are
means
of
but the object of that revelation can also be a thorn in the side.
as Derrida -writes, the ritual
"Apocalypse" in ancient Hebrew denotes,
unveiling
or revelation of "a part of the body, the head or eyes, also a secret, the sexual
"
you describe Edward Muybridge's
organs. In "Grammophon Film Typewriter"
"
was originally commissioned
"Animal
which
Locomotion,
series,
photographic
as studies of bodies in (slow) motion.
for painters
Muybridge, however, couldn 't
. . .
afew
the
old
medium
He
made
paint.
completely give up
touch-ups to the stills
revelation,
738
NEW
LITERARY
HISTORY
are
his models
Right. Those are the Stanford pictures. When
facing
on
the camera
have
but
their
when
backs are
trunks,
they
bathing
turned to the camera they're naked. They spin the entire time?he
had
them turning pirouettes?so
effect. The
you can imagine the uncanny
swim
are
trunks
Pennsylvania
for
pictures,
an
he didn't
educational
early
animation
bother.
trick.
They weren't
For
the
intended,
same
project
in
purposes.
The
blind spot, since Conrad, has been the "heart of darkness" in Western
civilization. Blindness, however, for Nietzsche is a precondition of themedium: he
bought a typewriter because his eyesight had become so bad. Flaubert tells of sitting
the entire evening spellbound with book in hand, hitting a reading-high. Today
people sit for hours infront of their computers surfing theWeb. Can one speak of
a process of a medium-induced
blindness ?
That
the media
influence bodies through emergence
and immersion,
I don't believe
that point we both agree. However,
in the old thesis
to saying,
that thus the media are proth?ses of the body, which amounts
was the body, then came the glasses, then
in the beginning
suddenly
the computer. The mythology
is that
television, and from the television,
frees
the
from
itself
dissolves
and
in
it
everything
body,
again,
submerges
on
in
the
sense
of
emergence
and
immersion,
virtual
reality,
cinemascope,
and hallucination.
Your theory may be true for some of the entertain
ment media,
but I think to be able to describe a general media history,
to work,
it would
be better
like Luhmann,
from the
systematically
histories
of
the
media.
The
media
don't
independent
technological
from
the
rather
for
human
the
book,
emerge
you have,
body,
example,
and the military generals
in considering
how they can subvert the book
or the written word, come up with the
telegraph, namely, the telegraph
to
and
then
the
offset
wire;
military
they come up with the
telegraph,
builds
into his tanks. In England
Alan
radio, which Hitier
or
a
to
Churchill
beat
and
radio
war,
way
Turing
ponder
Germany's
they
to crack the radio signals?and
arrive at the computer
the German
is cooked,
that's the end of the war. A history
like this doesn't
goose
wireless
individual
media?such
separate
bodies
a history
actor. Rather,
bodies.
This
and
739
OF WRITING
TECHNOLOGIES
"
Deception
the
"Culture
Industry:
as Mass
Enlightenment
The
landscape.
on
chapter
in their
which,
technologies
view,
make
"man"possible
also
make
In contrast to
possible the literal end of mankind in Auschwitz and Hiroshima.
theFrankfurt School's pessimistic assessment, one has the technological positivism
of
media
theorist
Bolz
Norbert
's remark:
"The
conversation
face-to-face
does
not
function
communication
is,
the more
is
communication
progress
the
making.
the question,
apocalypse now or
is quite clear on that point.
treat Goebbels
'swar propaganda
and Holly
and Adorno
as
propaganda
and
two
facets
of
the other
same
the
but
One
phenomenon.
the authors
examine
is
as
them
commercial,
parallel aspects. That's the appalling
thing about the book. But it also
sense because
a sort of system
makes
it establishes
theory. It would be
nonsense
to say that the technological
media are all fatal and apocalyp
tic because
the apocalyptic
activate and
dangers which we constantly
are
not
engage
only provoked by the media but can also be discovered
military
by them. For instance, no one would know about the hole in the ozone
without
the media. On the one hand, we're probably the first humans
to
a hole in the
torn
have
men
in the ice age did too, we
ozone?maybe
don't
know?while
which
we
we
computer
on
computers,
can
describe
wouldn't
and
know
the
analyze
what
an
other
hand,
are
the ozone
ozone
layer
the
one
tool
layer. Without
with
the
is.
Horkheimer
reflexes.
showed
that
the
nerves
are
the
slowest
electrical
connections
ten meters
on
earth.
is why a driver's
per second, and no faster, which
reaction time, 0.1 seconds,
is so slow. And that's perhaps also
why you
to train on
have
and other machines,
in a
pinball
technological
Some
advanced
society
or
culture
. . .
740
The
is more
problem
me
Let
simple.
philologies
my
reformulate
NEW
LITERARY
statement.
Most
HISTORY
us
of
in
the
processing.
the first
time?to
teach
Programming?isn't
not
learn
You
no
on an entirely
alphabetization
routines.
are
there
assuming
happens,
errors
different
to create
only
in your
also entails
field, which
and
paragraphs
a form
It's
program.
other
also
but
footnotes,
of
a regression
I see this as being
is and how to solve problems.
positive for cultural studies. I can't imagine that students today would
learn only to read and write using the twenty-six letters of the alphabet.
the
the integral function,
They should at least know some arithmetic,
about signs and functions. They should also
sine function?everything
Then
know at least two software
they'll be able to say
languages.
what
something
Under
wear,"
about
society
which
are
much
also
of
part
in terms of a system
examines
the most
happens
That
of
its own.
When
to
or
behave"
we
however,
society.
to
"what
understand
refers
studies
of signs. Cultural
comes
to
"how
I think,
culture.
to and
systems.
sign
important
as
contrast
in
the moment,
such
more,
"culture"
What
is at
culture
what
falls
your
compare
program
computer
critically.
your literary essay or paper, you're already
thinking
to think historically,
Critical thinking can't be taught. I can teach people
and that in itself is quite critical . . . sometimes. A lot of what we have
the
for example,
touched on here goes back to acts of pure violence,
can
we
is
museum.
that
from
learn
What
of the
history
founding
with
structures
various
be
aren't
code
imported,
eternal.
systems?if
as
far
as
To
return,
the practice
possible,
into
however,
to
the
human
sciences,
the
of
concept
could
not
really
just
as
741
OF WRITING
TECHNOLOGIES
"
/ have problems with terms like "the information highway. As an outsider it
seems tome that despite the outstanding technological advances, the content, that
is, the message of the medium, often remains banal. What do you expect from a
global network like the Internet?
Iwant from the Internet is information
What
you can't find in books.
on computer
the sociocollective
The Web represents
tech
knowledge
ever
could, because books would have to
nology much better than books
to describe
in depth. Today electronic
have thirty volumes
something
a
lead double life, once in tangible form as silicon and again as
elements
as a computer
a logical abstraction,
of itself with all the
description
relevant
not
data,
click
computer.
New
are
stored
you
want
in
to
A virtual
Exactly.
million
make
on
diagram
the wall,
on
can
You
as a
only
the
as
build,
also
as a simulation.
simulate
can
You
memory.
a simulation.
computer's
later
but
its behavior
in a real
on modules,
based
which
today
run
the
which
computer,
computer?
no
There's
other
in a
transistors
five million
way
to do
computer's
the moment
it. At
hard
drive,
are
there
that means
and
five
can
you
mistakes
"
You recently published an article with the title "There Is No Software. What
happens with the discourse network between hard- and software of literature and
theory ?
learn something
in the humanities. When
We can definitely
I think
back on my old literary criticism,
the good essays are actually didactic
in programming.
How did Duke Carl Eugen von Wurtemberg
pieces
or
program Friedrich Schiller? I didn't write about Schiller's sentiments
because
religion,
princes
don't
need
What
studies,
programming,
final
which
School
question
an
bare-bones
for a specific
understanding
is a fundamental
a structural
adaptation
Frankfurt
was
I had
or
hardware
you need
hardware,
One
all
the novelist
program
model:
civil function
of
and
to
technology
understanding
automatization,
and
educators
of concepts
In
regulation.
that.
such
as
cultural
about
programming.
Goethe's
amanuensis,
J.
P. Eckermann,
742
NEW
LITERARY
HISTORY
so that it
If you can describe
it well enough
and make
it plausible,
doesn't just remain a metaphor,
then I think it's an important
task. The
a
of
discourse
networks
involves
of pro
description
always
knowledge
on
in
con
his
theoretical
the
gramming.
Turing,
computer,
writings
and programming.
On the
standy draws the parallel between education
one hand, how do you program
the machine
and what should
it be
of?
On
the
do
other
what
do
He
with
children?
hand,
you
capable
always
It's at points
the parallels.
like these that the problems
of
emphasizes
cultural studies can be brought together with the problems of technology.
New York
(Translated
by Matthew
Griffin
and Susanne
University
Herrmann)