INTERVIEWWITHTKVDESIKACHAR

ByLisaMiriamCherry
Desikachar'sfather,TKrishnamacharya,taughtPattabhiJoyceandBKSIyengar.They
wereyoungboysandtheirteacherdevisedYogapracticetosuittheirindividualbody
typeandenergy.TKVDesikachar,aformerengineer-turned-Yogateachercarriesonhis
father'svalueswhichwerebroughtdownfromtheTibetanmountains,thattheindividual
comesfirst,andthatthereisonlyoneYoga.Hisson,Kausthub,agrees.Ienteredtheir
courseasatypicalWesterner,believingYogawasonlyaboutasana.Iemergedadifferent
person,onewhocouldseethatmuchmorethroughtheeyesofPantanjaliandwhocould
recogniseYogaastheholisticpracticeitis.
L:Haveyourteachingmethodschangedovertheyears?
D:I'mnotthesamepersonIwas.Mybody'snotthesame.Myage,mygoals,myabilitiesand
mywishes,arenotthesame.Sometimesevenmyenvironmentisdifferent.Mygoalshave
changed.At21Iwantedtoexcelinalltheasanathatwasmygoal.Todayitisdifferent,and
oneyearlaterwillbedifferentagain.WhenIbecameaYogastudent,Ilostalotofmyfriends,
becausetheythoughtIwasdoingsomethingcrazy.Theythoughtofmeasanengineer.They
wereashamedtobeYogateachersinthel960s.WhenYogabecamemorepopularinthe
West,IndiabegantolookatYogadifferently,andtodaybecauseofthiscontributionfromthe
West,Yogaisnowaccepted.It'snowinthemainstream,it'sinmanymedicalschools,there'sa
boardthatdecideswhoshouldberecognised.InIndia,stillthewindblowsfromtheWest!
L:Beforewereyoulessinterestedinspirituality?
D:WhenIwasastudentofmyfatherin1961,althoughmyfatherexpectedmeto,Inever
imaginedIwouldchant---tosingonlyonenotewasmygoal.
L:Whenyouwereyounger,yourfatherwantedtogetyouinterestedinchantingandyou
didn'twanttodoit?
D:Yes,thenaladyoncevisitedandcalledoutloudly"Professor".Ididn'tknowwhothe
professorwas.Inafewsecondsmyfatherappeared,halfnaked.Thisladythenproceededto
hugmyfather.WhenIsawthisladyhuggingmyfatherwhowaswearingtypicalbramandress,
whenmymotherhadnevereventakenawalkwithmyfather,andherewasthisforeignlady
huggingmyfatherinthemorning!Icouldpaintapictureofthescene,sosostrongdoesit
remaininmymemoryevennow.WhensheleftIaskedmyfatherwhoshewas.Hesaidshe
wasfromNewZealandandhadn'tbeensleepingproperlyfor25years.Thepreviousnightshe
hadsleptwithouttheuseofmedicine.Soshecametothankhimbecausehehadbeen
teachingherforthepreviousyear.Shewassoexcited,shetoldherhusband"Ihavetoseemy
professortothankhim".Thathitme.Thathitme.Eversince,thatladyhasapparentlybeen
sleepingwell.Sheisstillaliveandwellasthegreatageof91.Wedon'tteachYogateachers.
Weteachpeople.Thislady'shusbandwasatopbusinessman.ThatwasthedayIdecidedI
neededtostartstudyingwithmyfather.Itookajobinthesamecityasanengineerandthatis
howitallstarted.Mostofthepeoplewhocamedidsobecausetheywerenotwell.Theycould
affordthebestmedicalfacilities,sopeoplesuggestedforthemtovisitProfessorT
Krishnamacharya.
L:InwhatwaydoyouthinkYogacanhelpwherewesternmedicinecannot?
D:Ihavediscussedthiswithmanydoctors.Therearesomesituationswherebothapproaches
aregood.Icannothelpsomeonewhohasadeepfracture.Evenmyfatherhadtogoto
someonewhenhehadaseriousillness.IcannotsaythatwhereYogastarts,medicinestops.Or

wheremedicinestarts,Yogastops.Thehumansystemisnotjustthebody.Youcantake
chargeofyourselftosomeextent.Thatmakesabigdifference.Andweneedtomakesurethat
weunderstandYogacorrectly.IwillnotsaythatIcancurealldiseases.Thatwouldbe
ridiculous.IhaveseensomanybookswritingaboutthisYogaasanahelpinginthisway.Itisa
joke.SomeYogateachershavewrittenbookssayingthatthey're'curingallthesediseases'.But
howdidthisladyfeelbetter?Myfatherenlistedthehelpofherwholesystem.
L:Hedidn'tsuggestspecificasanaforsleeping?
D:No.There'snoprescriptionatallandIhopethatneverhappens.Shehadsomeproblems
definitely.Shewasdisturbedbecauseshedidnothaveachild.Shewasalsodisturbed
becauseherhusbandwasworkinginIndiaintheleatherbusiness,andgotsomeserious
asthmabecausetheyuselotsofchemicalsintheleatherindustry.Buthelikedhisjob.Sothere
weremanyfactorsthatweredisturbinghermentally.Therelationshipwithmyfather,andthe
wayhetookcareofherasanindividualeffectedsomechangeonher.Itdidnotremovethe
illness.Aftersomeyearswhenshelostherhusband,sheagainhadproblemswithsleepingfor
oneandahalfyearsbecauseshewasalone.SoifapersonwhoisqualifiedinYoga,andnot
justposturessinceYogaisnotjustaboutasana,caninteractwithsomeoneandoffersome
suggestionsusingmeditationorwhateverothermethodmaybeappropriate,thatpersoncan
change.That'swhatmyfathertaught.Everypersonisdifferent.
L:IsthishowhissystemofYogadifferedfromotherteacherssincetheydidn'tlookatthe
individual?
D:HowcanIanswerthat?Ionlyhadoneteacher?Tobefair,somepeoplewriteabout
illnessestoencourageustopractiseYoga,stretchingittothelimitbysayingthatifyoudothis,
thatwillhappen.Ifthatweretrue,thentherearenowsomanyYogateachersinAmericathat
thedoctorswillhavetoclosetheirbusiness.ButIknowmanyYogateachersarenowgoingto
moredoctors,psychoanalysts,herbalists,andChinesedoctorsthaneverbefore!
L:Really?
D:Yes!
L:Butisittruethatsomeasanaaremoreenergisingthanothers,soifyouwanttosleep
youavoidthem?Suchasinvertedposes?
D:Iwillnotcommentonthat.Thereshouldbesomelogic,someparadigmtotalkinthisway.
Inverted(postures)don'tgiveyoumoreenergyforthatreason:ifthebloodwenttothehead
whenIstandonmyhead,whydoesn'tthebloodgotothefeetwhenIstandonmyfeet?You
answerthatquestion.Iwalkedsohardtodayforoverl5minutes,andtherewasverylittle
bloodinmyfeet!
L:Howdoyouknow?
D:BecausemysockswereverytightwhenIstarted,thenafterwalkingmysockswerevery
loose.Sothebloodflowisnotbasedongravity.
L:That'showsometeach-ifyougoupsidedown,thebloodwillgotoyourhead.
D:Hereisthebrain,theheart,somanyneurologicalsystems.Ourbodyisnotabucket.That's
whysomescientific-medicalpeoplelaughatYogabecauseofsuchridiculousstatements!
Manyyearsagotheydidanexperimenttoseehowthebloodflows.....
L:Manyarticlessay"thismovehelpsthethyroid"oranotherorgan.Ifit'snottrue,how
cometheproponentsaren'tintrouble?
K:Theyareintrouble.
D:Theyareorwillbe.ThemostimportantthinginYogaisthemind.Changethemindandthe
humansystemchanges.WhenyoudidyourYoga,somethingchangedinyourmindsoyoufelt
better.Yogapeopleshouldtalksensiblyandtalkinawaythatmakessensetopeopleinthe
medicalprofessionsbecausemedicalprofessionsareonlyinterestedinsolutions.Whatever

helpstheperson'smindwillhelpthePerson.Whateverdoesn'thelptheperson'smindwillnot
helptheperson.Itmaybeasana,itcouldbemeditation,whateveritis.
L:Sothemindcomesfirst?
D:Yes.Wehavetobeaware...thispersonhascertainsituations,Ishouldknowthem(asa
teacher).WhatisthedefinitionofYoga?Itis"stateofmind."Myfather,at100yearsofage,
wasnotabletodoasana,buthewassoserenebecausehehadhisownYogapractice.Onthe
daywehonouredhim,herecited"Om"for55seconds.So,therewerestrengthstohis
discipline.
L:It'samazinghowtheQueenMotherlivedthatlong.Whenyoutalkabout"stateof
mind"Ithinkthathelpedheralot.
D:Somepeopletakethingslightlyandsomepeopletakethingsveryseriously.Youhaveto
lookatthepersonintotality.Ifyouwanttotalkabouttransformation,transformationisnot
readingabookandpickingsomeasanaanddoingthem.It'snotfairtotheperson,it'snotfairto
theart,it'snotfairtothescience.WehaveseensomanypeoplewithproblemsattheCentre.
Wehavethedataof35,000people.Youwillfindtheapproachtoeachissodifferent.Amost
importantfactortomentionistheirtrustinwhatwearegivingthem,theirpersonaldiscipline
andtheirtrustintheteacherwhichhavealsocontributedtotheirwellness.
L:Whentheycometoyou,theytellyouhowtheyfeel,andwhat'swrongwiththem?
D:Wehaveaprocedure.Wehavetrainedpeoplehowtolookatthosewhocometous,not
justhowtodoasana.Wehaveasystemsothatwhenapersonarrives,they'rebriefed.Thena
seniorteacherlooksatthem,collectssomedataandmakestheirownassessment.When
necessary,theymayaskmeforhelp,Thenitisdecidedwhichteacherwouldmakethebest
connectionwiththatperson.Wediscusswiththatteacherwhats/heshouldtoteachthis
patientandweoffersomefeedbackonhowtheycanadaptthepractices.It'snotareadymade
"prescription".Everyweek,thestudentcomesbackafterpractisingfor5or6daysandwe
makeareview.Basedonthatreview,wegotothenextstep.Weworkeverydayexcept
Sunday.Wedohavesomedoctorsoncallandknowwhatisourlimit.Weneverpromiseto
cure...weonlysay"try".Themostimportantthingisone'sattitudetowhatweoffer.Onemust
makeadecisionthatonewillpractise.
L:Soitdoesn'tmattersomuchwhatillnesstheycomewith?
D:No.Ifsomeonecomeswithbackpain,forinstance,weexaminethebodyandexaminewhat
mayexacerbatethatpain,anddecidewhatnottointroduceandwhattointroduce.
L:Howwouldyoudescribethe"oceanofYoga"
D:Wecouldhavecalledit'themountainofYoga'.Thinkaboutthis.Amountainisstone,it
hardlychanges.Yogaisflexible,that'swhywecalleditocean.Theoceanchanges,waves
change,thewatertemperaturechanges.Themindislikeanocean.
K:Yogaisnotasana.Therearesomanypartstoit.Peoplearenotawareofthis.Letme
illustrate.TherewasaYogacompetition.Itwassoaggravating.Itwasn'tjustthewayitwas
beingheldbuttheway'competitors'treatedeachotherbeforeitevenbegan.Itwasridiculous.
Iwaswondering,arethesereallypeoplewhodoYoga?Theytalkaboutvalues,theytalkabout
non-violence,theytalkaboutthis,theytalkaboutthat.Butlookathowtheyarebehavingwith
eachother-otherhumanbeings,otherpeoplewhoarealsosupposedtobedoingYoga.
They'reallinthesameboat.Ifounditridiculoustowatchandfeltthatsomethingwasnotgoing
right.ThisiswhenIstartedobservingandfindingoutmoreaboutwhatishappeningaround
theworldinthenameofYogabytalkingwithdifferentpeople.Itseemspeoplehavedivided
themselvesintodifferentgroupsbasedonwhattechniquetheypractise.'IfIdothistechniqueI
belongtothissection;ifIdothattechnique,Ibelongtothatone'.ButYogaisnotabout
technique;it'saboutexperience.Yogaisnotaboutwhetheryouraiseyourfromarmstothe
frontorfromtheside,orkeepyourfingerstogetherorseparated.It'sabouthowYogaaffects
YOU,whatexperienceyouhaveasanindividualpractisingitandhowyoubecomeabetter

person.That'swhenIspoketomyfatheraboutpresentingthisidea.Acoupleofyearsagowe
startedaseriesofworkshopsinwhichwethoughtwe'dpresentdifferentaspectsofYogain
thespiritofYoga,i.e.unity.Lastyear,wehadaworkshoponsequencingand,alongwithall
theseinteractionswecameupwiththeideaofpresentingthewiderangeoftoolsthatYoga
hastooffersothatpeopleknowthatthereissomuchmoreinvolvedoverandabovesimple
techniques.Wecan'tsaythatwetaught35differentstyles;therewere35differentclasses,but
itis35differentexperiences,andmaybemorebecauseeachindividualreceivestheteachingin
differentways.ThereisjustoneYoga.Thisiswhywepresentedtheconceptof'theoceanof
Yoga'.WeareaimingtopresentthewholespectrumofYogaratherthanworryingaboutsmall
boxesintowhichwetrytofixeverything.Ialwaysaskpeoplethisquestion:Whenyougointo
ashop,doyoutrytochoosetheshirtandfitintoitordoyoutrytochooseashirtthatfitsyou?
It'sthesamewithYoga.Idon'tthinkweshouldtrytofitintoonetechniqueofYoga.Yogamust
fitintooursystem,ourlife.Itmustbetailor-madetobeappropriateforus,notthereverse.Not
'ifIamunabletodothistechnique,IamnotfitforYoga'.Mygrandfatheralwayssaid,'if
anybodycanbreathe,theycandoYoga.'Ifsomebodyisparalysedbelowthehip,doesthat
meantheycan'thavetheexperienceofYoga?No.Ifsomebodyismentallyretarded,doesthat
meantheycan'thavetheexperienceofYoga?No.Weworkwiththosepeople.Theydon'tfit
intothosetechniques,butitdoesn'tmeanthattheydon'tfitintotheoceanofYoga.
D:Whatpeoplehavereceivedthisweekisamazing.Therehasbeennowordofonestyle
beingbetterthananother.PeoplehavereceivedsomuchfromsomanyYogateachers.Swami
Satchidanandahasdonesomuchgoodforalotofpeople,andhe'snotoneofmyfather's
students.Alotofpeoplehavegotalotofproblemsfromsomeofmyfather'sstudentsalso.
There'salotofpeoplewhohavedonealotofgoodworkonWesternpsychology-the
HimalayanYogaInstituteforexample.Whyisitthatinsomesystems,somethinggood
happens,andinanother,somethingnotgoodalsohappens?Becauseofhowitisreceived.If
somethingchangesthestateofmindfromnegativetopositive,thepersonchangesfrom
negativetopositive,irrespectiveofthetechnique.The80peopleinourclassfeltarelationship
withus,sothesystembecamedifferent.IfImeteachoneofthem,Iwouldhavebeenableto
honoureachofthem.IwishIhadmeteachoneofthem.SoIshookeachoftheirhandsatthe
end.WhatelsecouldIdo?
L:Whatdoyouthinkoftheterm"ViniYoga"whichpeopleusetodescribeyourstyle?
D:IthinktheyshoulddestroythiswordViniYoga!ThewordViniYogaiswhatIhavebeen
speakingtoyouaboutforonehour.Itmeansknowtheperson,thenafterdecidewhatyouare
abletodo,thengostepbystep.Thereisnostyle.Theword"ViniYoga"hasdestroyedthe
philosophyofthesymbolismofViniYoga.Itisatypicalsystem.InIndia,theytalkabout
Ayurveda.There'snosuchwordintheancienttexts.It'sabranding.It'sanidentification.I'm
sorry,butthey'vedestroyedthespiritofViniYogabyusingthewordViniYoga.Tomorrow
somebody(may)callandsay"I'mstartinganOceanofYogaSchool.TheViniYogaYogaof
Oceanstyle,basedontheconferencegivenattheOmegaCentre".Watch!
L:Sothatcouldruinittoo!
D:Yes,it'slikeagrouping.
L:ItlimitstheoceanofYoga.
D:It'snotonlylimiting,itseparates.IhavesuggestedsomepeoplegotoSatchidananda.Isit
becausehe'saViniYogateacher?
L:No.
D:IfeltSwamajicouldworkwiththisperson.Isaid,pleasegobecausehe'saveryniceperson
andhecouldhelpyou.IhavesentpeopletoPattabhiJoisandtomyuncle,becauseIfeltthey
weretherightpeopleforthem.SothisiswhatisViniYoga.Itiswhatsuitstheindividual.Itis
notastyle.Themomentyoucallitastyle,you'rekillingthespiritofViniYoga.JustasKaustub
likescappaccino,Craiglikeslightcoffeewithnosugarandyouprobablydon'tlikecoffeeatall.
ThatisViniYoga!

L:WhatifpeoplestartedcallingitDesikacharYoga?Wouldthatruinittoobecauseyou
suddenlyhavealabel?
D:Itisreallymurdering-theyaremurderingmyspirit!WhatIhavereceivedisfrommy
teacher(TKrishnamacharya),andwhathereceivedisfromhisteacher.Thereisalineageof
morethan2000years.HowcantheylabelthisDesikachar?Theyaremurderingmebecause
theyaremurderingmyteacher.
L:Iftheynameditafteryourfatherthatwouldn'tbegoodeither?
D:No,myfatherwouldbeintears.Whateverheinvented,heneversaidheinventedit.Iknow
thatheinnovatedthings,buthewouldneversay'itismine'.ThatistheIndianphilosophyof
humilityandrespectfortheteacher.Theyalwayswouldsay,'myteachertaughtthistome.'
L:Soyouwouldbeappalledifpeoplecalledyoutheirguru?
D:Iwouldnotbeappalled.Ihavenocommentstomake,becauseIcannotstoppeoplefrom
doingwhattheywant!
K:Somebodyaskedme'WhatshouldIcallyourfather?'Isaid,'Callhimbyhisname!'
D:Itisunfairtolabelthisgreat,timelessteachingofYogawhichhasnolimitintermsofa
particularindividual.Itisnotfair,itisalmostmurdering.
L:Didyouadaptanythingyourfathertaughtyouatall?
D:Yes,adaptationisanecessity.IspeakinEnglish.MyfathertaughtmeinSanskrit.Sothere's
alreadybeenanadaptation.Culturehaschanged.ItisnotanadaptationbecauseIwantto
adapt.Itisanecessity.
K:Ithinkevenmygrandfatheradaptedalotfromwhathelearnedfromhisteacherbecausehe
waslivinginTibet.It'sverydifferentfromlivinginMadraswhichisahugecityofsixmillion
people.Thepaceoflifeisdifferent,theculture,thevalues.SoIthinkadaptationsmustbe
made,thatisalsoViniYoga.ThespiritbehindViniYogaistorespectthesituationsandadapt.It
isnotaYogawordatall.InEnglish,thewordis'adaptation',inSanskrititis'ViniYoga'.
L:WhatisyourdreamforthenewcenturyofYoga?
D:Manyyearsagooneofmystudentsaskedme'WhatisYoga'?AndIwenttomyfather,and
askedhimwhatwastherightdefinition.Myfathersaid,'TellhimYogameans'shanti',peace.'
Howtoofferthisgreatgift-timelessgift-tothisWorld?Thereissomuchtechnology,there'sso
muchadvancementinscienceandmedicineandallthat,andyetpeoplearenotveryhappy.
HowcanYogaservethecommunitysothatthereismorepeace?Thisisagreatlesson.TheUS
istherichestandmostpowerfulcountryintheworld.Peoplearescaredtowalk,totalk,even
tolookatpeople.InDenver,100peoplecametoourconference,andtheyfelthealed.That
wassuchanexperienceforme.Anybodywhoisinterestedinthis,canaddonedropofwater
tothisHealingprocess.Thiswouldmakemeaveryhappyperson.Wealth,power,doesnot
givehappinessandpeace.Ahearttoheartconnection,asintroducedthroughYoga,offers
this.Thisismydream.
K:Idon'tthinkmydreamisfardifferentfromthatofmyfather.IjusthopeI'llbeabletoplaya
partinthis,that'sall.Yogahelpsus.Itisnotaquestionoftechnique.Oneofmyfriend's
husbandisworkingintheFireDepartmentinNewYorkCity.OnSeptember11thhelost350
ofhiscolleagueswhentheTowerscrashed.Theywerebothshockedanddevastated.They
weresupposedtocometoourSeptember14thconferenceinDenverandtheybothcancelled.
Fortwoorthreedaystheybothsatinthehouse,weepingandweeping.Thenoneoftheir
studentscalledthemonSeptember13thandsaid,"Ijustfeelsotired,withallthathas
happened.Canyouteachmeaclasstoday?"Theclassmadeagreatdifferencetothestudent
andshecalledhertosayhowgratefulshewasthatshemetherunderthesecircumstancesand
howmuchbettershefelt.Thisopenedtheteacher'seyesandshesaid,"IfYogacanhelpmy
student,itcanalsohelpme."Thatnighttheybothdecidedtocometotheconference.They
foundaflightandcameimmediatelyandwereprobablythepeoplemostaffectedbythewhole

event.Herhusbandmadeastatement:"Icamefromhell,andI'mgoingbacktohell,butnowI
feelbetter."Thereareproblemsinthisworld,thereareconflictsandissuestoberesolved.
That'swhathappenedtothisman.HehadtogobacktoGroundZero.Andhesaid'Yogahas
helpedmetogobackthere.'ThatiswhatIhopewillhappentopeoplewhoarepractising
Yoga,nottoescapefromalltheseproblemsbuttogobacktotheseproblemswithmore
strength.Thisispossiblethroughtheexampleofthisbeautifulcouple.Yogashouldhelp
peopledodealwithrealworldissues,nottorunawayfromthem.Thatisnotgoingtogive
peace.Itisgoingtocatchupwithusonedayoranother
D:Hiswifegotbackherinnerstrength.ThisiswhatIdiscoveredinTibet.I'llgiveavery
importantexample.Inonesmallvillagewherewewere,thereweremanypoorpeoplewho
oftenonlyhadthesetofclothestheystoodupin.Idon'tknowwhattheyeatinwinter.But
theyhavesuchstrength.TherewasalittlegirlandwegaveherasmallphotooftheDalai
Lama.Shebecamealmostanenlightenedperson.Shesmiled.Herfeetweredirty,herclothes
weredirty.Thatwasinnerstrength.Forthatperson,thatsmallphotomadeheradifferent
person.Sowehaveaninnerstrength,andIthinkYogahelpsusdiscoverthis.Itisnot
techniquethatgivesit.Wecanbenexttoagreatspiritualperson,andwearenotpeaceful?
ThesepeopleareinTibetwherethey'renotsurewhatwillhappentomorrow,there'salways
tensionbecauseofChina,butinthesesmallvillages,they'resosoft.Itisnoteasy,butthey
havestrength.ThisiswhatIdiscoveredinTibet.Eachofushaveaninnerstrengthwhichyou
cannotbuy.Itispriceless.Butsomehowweloseitbecauseofourtemptationandwhat
happensfromtheoutside.
Key:

K=KausthubDesikachar,TKVDesikachar'sson;D=TKVDesikachar

InterviewconductedduringaseminarintheOmegaInstitute,NewYorkState,May2002
entitledTheOceanofYogafromthepartstothewhole.
ThankstoLisaMiriamCherryforpassingitontous.