DRAFT

COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE
20 September 2016 / JEG / VIII - 1
- - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - REP. FARIAS. (Continuing) vote whether to recommend to the Speaker
the grant of such immunity under Section 4 of Republic Act 6981. And I read, it says
there in Section 4 of the law, Witness in Legislative Investigations. In case of a
legislative in case of legislative investigations in aid of legislation, a witness, with
his express consent, may be admitted into the Program upon the recommendation of
the legislative committee where his testimony is needed when in its judgment there is
pressing necessity therefor: Provided, that such recommendation is approved by the
President of the Senate or the Speaker of the House or Representatives, as the case
may be.

So, in this instance, we have to dispose of that matter first because

otherwise, all of this alleged testimony may not come into play. So, are you now
formally asking the Committee for the grant of such immunity, Mister?
MR. AGUIRRE. Mr. Chairman, I fully agree with the Majority Floor Leader
and we may we ask that the Majority Floor Leader move that these witnesses here,
the inmates be given immunity before this the hearing of this Committee?
REP. FARIAS. Mr. Chairman, since we were furnished last night, I was
furnished by the Committee on Justice the copies of these affidavits, although they
are still affidavits and, as we know, affidavits are hearsay until they are testified into
by the person with cross-examination. So, I think the extension or the grant of such
immunity to them is necessary. So, I move that the Committee recommends to the
Speaker that these witnesses will be afforded the protection under Section 4 of
Republic Act 6981.
REP. HARRY L. ROQUE. Mr. Chair
REP. DOY C. LEACHON. Mr. Chair, may we
THE CHAIRPERSON.

Just before the Vice Chair, Congressman Roque

raised his hand first. He wants to be recognized.

REP. H.L. ROQUE.

Yes, Mr. Chair.

Just for the record, I would like to

mention the names of individuals who should be given testimonial immunity-Jovencio

Ablen, Rafael Ragos, Joel Capones, Jaime Pacho, Herbert Colangco. I think those
are the six individuals testifying today.
THE CHAIRPERSON. You only mentioned five.
REP. H.L. ROQUE. Okay. Ragos
THE CHAIRPERSON. Joven
REP. H.L. ROQUE. Colangco, Magleo, Martinez, Ablen and Pacho...
THE CHAIRPERSON. Okay.
REP. H.L. ROQUE. are six testifying today.

DRAFT
COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE
20 September 2016 / JEG / VIII - 2
- - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - THE CHAIRPERSON. Do you confirm this, Secretary, these six individuals?
MR. AGUIRRE. Yes, Mr. Chairman.
THE CHAIRPERSON. Okay. Vice Chairman Leachon.
REP. LEACHON. Yes. Just a follow through with the motion of our good
Majority Floor Leader. Given the names of those applying for immunity, may we
know also from the good Secretary, the extent of the testimony, are they all inmates
because
MR. AGUIRRE. No, Your Honor. Only four of them are inmates
REP LEACHON. And the other?
MR. AGUIRRE. and the two, Ragos and Ablen, are still with the NBI.
REP. LEACHON. Okay. Are they also testifying now, Mr. Secretary?
MR. AGUIRRE. We are planning to present the six. The others, because I
believe that we have we will lack time, Your Honor, they were left at their detention
cells.
REP. LEACHON. With that particularity, Mr. Chair, I would like to join the
motion of the good Majority Floor Leader.
THE CHAIRPERSON.

There is a motion and a second, but before we

dispose of this issue Your Honor.

REP. ARNOLFO A. TEVES, JR. Yeah. Cong Teves. Clarificatory question
lang. Does immunity equate to witness protection also? Because I I think, other
than immunity, they will also need the Witness Protection Program if they wish to
avail
THE CHAIRPERSON. That is
REP. TEVES.

thats why Im clarifying if its by them availing of the

immunity, does it equate to also them having availed of the witness WPP right
away?
THE CHAIRPERSON. That is the prerogative of the Secretary of Justice.
We have different immunities and WPP is a program under the Department of Justice
and they have the mandate to likewise also admit any witness into the WPP. So, my
question is, in fact, Id like to ask Secretary Aguirre, have they not been admitted into
your program or are you contemplating on admitting them into your program?
MR. AGUIRRE. For the information of Your Honors, they have all the six
have all been admitted to the Witness Protection Program of the Department of
Justice.

DRAFT
COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE
20 September 2016 / JEG / VIII - 3
- - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - THE CHAIRPERSON. So, I I think that is a more stronger protection that
can be afforded to them. In fact, I do not know if we still need a you know, this
this legislative immunity that we will seek this Committee and the Speaker, so if they
have if they have all been admitted into the program, then I guess that would
suffice, Mr. Secretary.
MR. AGUIRRE. Actually, it is not exactly correct because before the this is
only a provisional admission. So that the admission will be complete, we need the
recommendation of the Chairman of this Committee and the approval by the
Speaker.
THE CHAIRPERSON. So, your witness your immunity that you will grant is
really subject to this particular provision of the WPP and not the regular witness
protection granted under the mandate of DOJ? Anyway
MR. AGUIRRE. Thats right, Mr. Chairman.
THE CHAIRPERSON. Congressman Salo.
REP. RON P. SALO. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Just a clarificatory
question, Your Honor. Will there be no determination first on the participation or
culpability of these particular persons requesting for immunity inasmuch as if they
appear to be the most guilty at the end of the day, who are everybody becomes
immune. And whom are we going to prosecute or be held accountable later on?
THE CHAIRPERSON. Mr. Secretary, please.
MR. AGUIRRE. Mr. Chairman, hindi po kinakailangan iyon sapagkat dito,
wala pa po tayong kaso. So, wala pa tayong
REP. FARIAS. As the movant, may I explain to the Gentleman? 'Yung
most guilty applies only to discharge of witnesses of the accused.

Wala pa

namang accused dito. This is Witness Protection Act. So, okay na iyon.
REP. SALO. Yes, Your Honor. Im just clarifying inasmuch as if we already
grant them blanket immunity and then, at the end of the day, the government is
already estopped from any filing of a criminal case later on against them.
THE CHAIRPERSON. This is only immunity from their testimonies in this
legislative inquiry.
REP. OSCAR RICHARD S. GARIN, JR. Mr. Chairman? Mr. Chairman?
THE CHAIRPERSON. Congressman Garin.
REP. O.S. GARIN.

Yes.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Since the

aforementioned witnesses, Mr. Chairman, Ive heard they have already prepared a
written statement before they testify to this Committee and, under the Rules, within

DRAFT
COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE
20 September 2016 / JEG / VIII - 4
- - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 48 hours, they have to furnish the Committee Secretariat of the said affidavits or
written statement, Mr. Chairman. May we know, Mr. Chairman, if Members of this
Committee can be furnished of the affidavits in order to guide us accordingly before
we grant this immunity?
THE CHAIRPERSON.

Yes, in fact, we requested Secretary Aguirre to

prepare sufficient copies for distribution to the Members of the Committee to save on
time.
MR. AGUIRRE.
copies.

Yes, Mr. Chairman. We prepared 100 copies, sufficient

So, if theres anybody any Members of the Committee na wala pang

copy
REP. O.S. GARIN.

I think all the Members, Mr. Chairman, should be

furnished with that affidavits or written statements.

THE CHAIRPERSON. May I know from the ComSec if
REP. OAMINAL. They are now distributing.
THE CHAIRPERSON. They are now distributing. So
REP. OAMINAL. Mr. Chair, there is a pending motion duly seconded, so, can
we now proceed on the ruling of the Chair so that we go ahead with the presentation
of the witnesses by the Department of Justice?
REP. H. L. ROQUE. Second, Your Honor.
THE CHAIRPERSON. Thank you for that (Interrupted)
REP. F. H. CASTRO. Mr. Chairman, clarification please.
THE CHAIRPERSON. Deputy Speaker.
REP. F.H. CASTRO. As we understood from the explanation of the Majority
Leader, the approval of the immunity by this Committee, by the Members of this
Committee, I mean, is only recommendatory. It is the signature of the Speaker that
will be the operative act that will make the immunity, recommended by this
Committee, operative. Now, if we if we approve it now, being recommendatory
and we will allow the witnesses to testify now, are we not endangering these
witnesses?
THE CHAIRPERSON. Its a chicken and egg matter, you know, because for
them to testify, their lawyers, as manifested by the Secretary, is wanting to secure
this immunity and, you know, I believe

(MS. ROSALINDA C. NOCUM TOOK OVER)