‘A.Conversation between Norio imal and Shaichi Hira October 18,2012, 3:00~4:00pm ‘On the accasion of the exhibition Norio Imai Retrospective ~ From 17 0.22 Yoars Old at ARTCOURT Gallery in Osaka (October 9 ~ 27,2012), 2 talk session was held with Noto imal, The event was moderated by ‘Sholchi Hira, curator ofthe National Museum af Modern Act in Kyoto, During the session Imai recalls the very beginnings of his artistic career inthe 1980s and comments on a number af key histori images. Note othe rear: This text is an eSted version of th tanscribed talk sesion, as transiatad trom the Japanese ty Seth Yarden. For the heeft of readers ess ‘aria with te Twat Century Japanese art scene the roles an dates of ats and enties mentaned during the alk seston have been specieHira: Sensei, you studied Fine Art at Osaka Shirtsu Kigel High Schoo! (Osaka Municipal School of Art and Industry). Could you tell us about what motivated you fo put on your first solo exhibition? Imai | held my fst solo exibition in 1964, during the spring break, just as! was staring ‘my last year of high school. For me, the first ‘encounter lhe with contemporery art wos through Guta At. Wien Iwas in my frst year of high school, my teacher wes always saying: ust go out and sae alot of work’! grumble that I could never find the time. But he told me to just un around and see work | suppose I did't realy ‘un around much, but | did manage to peck in at various exhibitions after school. So one of them was @ Guts Art exhibition, which | believe was at Takashimaya Oepart- ‘ment Store {in Nambe, Osaka). This was when the Tends in Contemporary Art (Genii Bijutsu ro Dok) exibition was on at the museum thatis now knowa as the National Museum of Modern Artin Kyoto, and I ust thought Wow, people have been doing this kind of expres sion, and even though | was abit resistant to itat first, there was something that attracted me toi and before | knew it was making this sor of work. Figure: Hirai: Hore wo see some of your earliest work, Ima! did't even roalize it until saw my signature on the pieces, but apperently | dio these two pleces in November of 1963, ‘Thay were on tho walls ofthe stalrcase at ny house for years. Because they fit there Just right The other old pieces I had hang ing from the celing, and while there have been leaks in the roof that have lft stains in parts, | sometimes wonder if those pieces have actualy ested in that condition as @ 2 1 Senliae Japanese tem of ‘dates uses to Show respect ‘tara Cy Eton ‘esi omentary Setoo| Ori, 1983 ee abo sibles-Land 2) result oftheir assimilation with the house Hira: Ie seen some of your work at your house. Like you described, there are pieces ‘of your work here and there, saved from ages ago. It is as If the entire Interior space has become a workin teelt Itseems to me that your earliest pieces have ‘a somowhat different fee from your other ‘work, Theyir kind of Jasper Johns-ish, arent they? Imat Yes, suppose so. Hira: They give me a sense ofthe influence ‘of the American contemporary art of the period, Irma: Wel, around the time I started making art in 1982 or 1963, Pop Art was just being introduced in Japan. And, meanwhile, there was the phenomenon of what was known as ‘he informe! Whirtwind ~ what in Japanese might be called hikeisho kaiga (non-igurative Painting) ~ so it was an exciting time | was. influenced by both. So, when | was seventeen, I took some of those pieces, and also some of the white pieces | was stating to make then, and | put ona solo exhibition ata gallery in Shinsaibeshi, Osaka. How itcame about isa Tong story, but while Iwas at KOgel High School, | happened to be in the school newspaper club, and 1 was wit. ing reviews of exhibitions that were held at the school gallery and making the rounds to art supply shops and rental galleries in ordar to arrange advertisements in our paper and collect fund Well there was one galery that | often went ‘and the lady who ranit old me:‘Sudenly Ine gota slot fo fil three months from now, so keep an eye out for anyone who might want to teke it? Some days later, when I went by to plek up an advertising payment, she asked me:'So, howd it go? But forgotton all about it Anyway, she knew that'd been gotting involved with Gutal and was starting {to make contemporary art, so she said to me: "You doit then’ And, 2s | recall she gave ma the slot for hal the price, and even let me pay {in manthly instalments, So, tha’s how | came tohave the exhibition Lets have a look through the other images. Norio Imai and Shichi HiriSolo enniton | Testimony ofa reacts 7 sine Shope, sala, 1984 Hirai: s this one trom that time? "from the Testimony of @ Pearle Vs n Steger extn, fas ata place that was open a he time, rceion caled Noon Galery which hd we fees peies eon This photo is of the pert on the first floor. eee Is already mating pieces with forms of rain Sho swoter-ap cath then put small pies on ie display between the big ones, Te places in this photo are all gone now. In 1962, the Gutal Pinacotheca was opened In the Ddjima neighbourhood of Osale. ‘There were some upperclassmen from my high school who were participating in Gutat “euyoshl Makawa, who is here today, and ‘akesada Matsutani and others, They came tomy solo exhibition and word got around ‘that | was doing interesting stuf so the ‘other members starting coming by, one after another. Hira: So everyone came to see this fst solo cextbition of yours at Noonu Gallery? fo, they di. Conversation ‘And atthe end ofthe exibition, Yashinara-sensel came too, and then you joined as a member of Gutei? Imai: Tha’ right Yoshihera-sensei came by to see it on the last day I had those number pieces out, but he looked atthe white pieces ‘and sald"The next Gutal Exhibition is coming ‘up, so bring these along, The exhibition (14¢h GutaiArt Exhibition at Takashimaya Depart ‘ment Store in Osaka) was at the beginning of Apt and it was already February so "had to bury At the time, | had been putting labels on the pieces, with the tes written on them. Fs come up wit te tes by dropping open ‘a novel and pointing my finger at random words. But when Yoshinara-sensal eame by, he looked over et the piaces and told me blunty:"You dont need thet? Because from ‘around that time, Gutal was realy becoming someting that did avay with literary things and was persistently abstract Imai This i the piece | showed atthe gradu ation project exhibition atthe Koget Hight ‘School The piaces on either sie of it are by my classmates, But in those days, making ‘such ron-painted places would only anger the teachare atthe school, so I did a normal cil panting to9, a8 kind of smokescreen, (had that painting on dlplay and after the teacher was gone | replaced it with this one, whieh I kept out of sight (laughs). After the exibition opened got some displeased looks from the teacher, but that was all 18Ima: This is @ snapshot from the 14th Gutai Exhibition, when | fst contributed work Back ‘then, the Gutal Exhibitions were often held In the exhibition hall at Takashimays Depart- mont Store and after everything was setup, we would have a kind of demonstration at the tentrance, with each ofthe members contrib- luting in turn to create a single piece. dorit think this piece is around any longer, though, Yoshihare-sensei would be the first to paint, land then each ofthe older members would paint in order of seniority unt finally the new members would get their turn 'm the one standing ner to Kazuo Shiregs. Hira: Yes, the tir from the right n te back {mat Well, | was last and | had to pant too. But | dont do painting, So, | ripped part of the fabric stretched over the panel, and pushed through a bow that was used for ‘mixing paints. So the surface ofthe piece swelled outa lot, and naturally that made ‘other people's paintings warp in places. Everyone was realy upset with me (laughs). {remember being in tears though, Hira: As we can see trom ths picture, youre the youngest, and it reall almost looks 23 if youte still a schoolboy Everyone else is much ‘alder than you. Inna: Yoshihara-sensel was fity-nine a the time. Shraga and Motonaga were both in ther fortias. And Maekave Matsutani and ‘Shiji Mukai wore alla ite over thirty, ‘Acalsbraten| project between Sie Yess, ‘ir Kanaan, Teyosh Masia sm Shoe Se mame Asi Tana, Horio lal Kez So rage and ter former members of Gull ste ‘a Gua at Takeshineya Oe parent Stor, sain, 1984, IndpencantBs Tosyo setopolr tan stan, Figure 5: Ima: was atime when, In adction tothe Gutal Art Association, there were many other {groups of young artists allover the country that wore in their heyday Tokyo had the Neo- Dada Organizer, for instance, and there were various groups that formed in the rurel areas too, such as Kydsh-ha and Tosa-ha ‘The Yomiuri indépendant Exhibitions, which were the hub ofall this activity, were really quite radical. Just when | wes thinking of sub- ritting something to ifthe exhibition the pre- vious year, in 1863, turned out to be the last ‘one. And then a number of people who were interested in showing work got together, and the autonomous exhibition indépendant '64 was created, so | submitted my work there In those days, you just sent your workin and left the dleplay upto the organizers, that was how it was set up. When I went tothe show, the works wore all mounted in two rows, and rine had been put on the upper one (laughs), | made six ound pieces for that show. Hira: Wes this an indépendant that was organized by chit Haru (art eftc, 1995 201097 Imak No, | think he was therein a kind of advisory capacity. twas around this year thet the Indépendant exhibitions reelly started catching on, and soon they were being held Inplaces like Giu and other regions through- fut the country. thnk Harlu was going around and putting them together in those places. Norio Imai and Shichi HiraiIndra, Yiehana Chie Gale, 1985, Sake Comers tie poof thelguneh of the GusiPins cothecy Osaka 1962 AConversation mak Indépendent'64 happened only onc9, but some of the participants got together again, and that same year launched what was called the All Japan Inalépendant Exhibition {Zennippon Andepandan-ten), at Yokohama (Civic Art Gallery. This photo is from the ‘second time it was held, and that's the work | contributed. The piece on the let doesnt ‘exist anymore. And the objet in the fore- ‘ground isrt mine (laughs) Imai: This is a picture of Gute’ title museum, Which was known as Gutai Pinacothecs ‘and was opened in 1982, at Nakanoshima ‘Sechome in Osaka. often stopped by there tohave a look ‘An opening celebration exibition was held ‘ecturing al the Guta atts and aftr tha, every month there was anew sole exhib tion put on by a member of tha group, Shoes tal members Introntoftne i Paco. ‘hace dng te 1985; ‘Shimamote had the fest one, and then itcor- tinued with shows by Kazvo Shiraga Testo Yoshida and cthers.! never missed a single one. “This photo is trom the opening In 1962, ‘and in 1966, wes to put ona solo exhibition there myself but I would never have imagined ‘doing such a thing then, and continued to visi the plece constant. ln 197, the year after Exp0'70 (Osaka Wera's Fat), the build- ing was demolished to meke way for the on and-off ramp of the Hanshin Expressway. ‘The whole ares has completely changed In recent years, The building had been re- ‘modelled fom an old storehouse, and siting ‘among all the lass-covered office buildings ofthe area, it radiated this remarkable pres cence It is ponular these days to renovate old buildings, but back then it was a landmark vert: The gold cut-out lettering stood eutin reli against the crumbling earthen wall, and Itlooked really smart mat This photo is trom the 15th Gutal Bxhi- bition in 1985, A was after this that | would ‘become a member ofthe group, and I con= ‘yibuted pieces to al the Gutat Exhibitions ‘rom thet point on. But this group photo was {kon at Gutai Pinacotheca, when Michel Taplé, the French cic whe introduced Guta overseas, was visiting Hirai: There are more members than in the last picture, arent there? And many of them, Including you, Imai-sensel, are new. Irate Yes, that's right. You can see Sadehera Horo in there, too, whois stancing next to me. 1618 Gite At Figure 9: Ebon Gut Imai Until that time, the fit flor ofthe store- house had served asthe exhibition space at Guta Pinacotheca, but with ll the new mom- bers the number of works had increased too, s0 an exibition space was sel up on the second floor as well So, forthe 18th Gutai Exhibition, hal my work on the wall of the second floor (see alate 13), and here fm having Tapié and Yoshihara-sensel look tit Fight Novi la leet Tpit and Jr Yshhare 1h Guta at Eton Kel Deparment Sho, Te. Imai: Th is from the 18th Gutai Exhibition in bey 1985. It was held al Keié Department Store In Tolya. | recall that both Isamu Noguchi Uapanase-American artist, 1904~1088) and Hisa0 Dbmote Uapanese artist "1929) came te see this exhibition ‘contributed these moving pieces, White Even (Stiro no bento}. With Protuberances (Fyuk) (ee 1), when I sarted making that sort ofthing, had the simple notion that i might be interesting if it moved, and I replaced the cloth with rubber and made it nto an elec- 16 tricaly-powered work with a motor ine For the White Event piaces, later put clear ‘cnc eases on them, but atthe beginning | left them uncovered But since the exibition space was in «department ste, children came ‘0 00, They push agains! the taut tos, And theirhands would slp and end up tearing them, ‘After that | started putting cases over them. All had let ofthe original work were these block ends that Fd rounded off with a lath, which were the components Id used at that time to stretch the cloth So Ive used them to re-create the piace. twas exhibited at Guai Pinacotheca ata 45-depree siat high up on the wal and the lighting cast shadows onthe wal surfaces, Hirai So when you set them up, you take the shadows into account, too? mak: That's right Iwas around that time that I started thinking ofthe shadows on the wall as part ofthe work Ina ito. Figue 11.812: ‘exnbiton at ‘Guat Piscame ex Osa, 1968 Ima: In the other room, had a few works dis played randomiy here and there, For the most part, at other Gutal members solo exhibitions, ‘the walls tended to bo completely covered up by large rectangular canvases. In comparison, ‘the walls during my exhibition looked almost empty and there were even some members ‘who said | was getting lazy (laughs) Nota imal and Shaichi Hiraaut Instat soto exnbion at ut Pracatne- Osa, 1956 Hira: But you were treating the entre wal as single work, it seems to me. Imai Yeah Like a kind of wall-surface insta: lation, At Rybanji Temple, the stones in the reck garden are placed here and there ~ its that kind of placement. Hira: I think that one ofthe main character: Isties of such relief works Is that aspect you wore referring to just now, of being between surface and sculpture, With the use of neutral white and the incorporation of parts that function inside the wall, you are creating roles oF functions unlike those possessed by normal paintings, which however do not lend themselves to being what could be called objets ie fascinating how these works have such in-between characteristics, Lane‘ trte ‘onsnat at Fumi fs en, ees mal: This is the pamphlet from when 1 pmioienee ceived the award at the 10th Sha Art Anare Syigutnone: Exton. My pieces were partly cto or fattesamel the pamphlet sa i 2), bt hie wes around fa 968 the time when the magzzineEnisteme was A comersaton wa Bookcoverot Eistein Et teme ubray, (epsutene ‘sno pub ene in 1978 popula, and! they were binging out a book ‘called Einstein 8s part oftheir Epistome Library (Episutome Sosho).| was contacted by a book ‘cover designer who said he was hoping to use this series of my work, and wanted to know it Itwould be all rightif he put Einstein's auto- ‘raph on top of them, Wel, dint mind, and Inany case | thought it would be better that way design-wise, Instead of tying to fitthe ‘autograph in without touching my piece. Figure 14; Imai In Novernber 1966, there was an ex: hibition entitled From Space Envronmont (Koka kara Kankyé e) at Metsuya Ginza Department Store in Tokyo. This time, | set up four moving White Event devices inthe wal ‘and created what one might calla protuding- _movement wall. hen | projected slides onto it ‘Among the participants in this show, there ‘were photographers too, such as Kiyoshi Otsu and Shomel Tomatsu | was stil a ‘wenty-year-old kid and didn't havea fearful bone in my body so it was no big deal for ma to ask to borrow some slides. But we weren't acquainted yet, so | spoke io Shiz6 Takiguhi 7{arteric, 9808-1979), who was the acting ‘advisor and he said kay and talked to thom right away for me, came across duplicates of the slides at my house recently, soi there Is some opportuity,'m hoping to try to repro: duce the piece fom Seb blimey Ima Here was using ses of attras ot Eanes things. They were projected for five seconds see re per se om wo cabo Iramemdor close-up of mice by Koshi Otsujl. So, you might see two breasts for inctace bu it actualy bain fo expand fromthe ats rund the bey button, so tho mage gets dered loos a8 ho ail image fconsanty sveying or wing. 8 18 ‘9m Gua Art Fiaure 16: iter To ental au, Imai: was arcun this time that | ely ee Started to have en interest in slides and pro: Jected images. And, of course, things were really happening in underground cinema and animation back then. | went toa lot of screen ings, and | wanted to apply them in my own ark, too. This isa photo from my showing at the 19th Gutai Art Exhibition, held at Tokyo Cental ‘Act Museum Rs the same side that is being projected on the ceiling and walls ofthe main exhibition room for this show = | made imag- es like this by punching out random holes in 35m film with @ hole punch. This venue hac very fat, featureless wall so | projacted onto these irregularly shaped pieces of cut tro foam that a setup to make diferent levels. Nori lai and Shichi HiraiSpace 1908: tad Emi ronment Se98 Department Store Kae, 1968 A Conversation Imai This Is in 1968.4 show ealled Cantem- porary Space: Light and Environment (Gendsi ro KGkan ‘Hikari to Kank) was put an in Kobe. In terms of content and participants it {followed the lead of the Tokyo exhibition From ‘Space to Environment (Kakan kara Kanig e} | projected the same slide onto ineguiary ‘shaped rls that had no holes in ther. With my iregulary shaped pieces, if you turn them even a ite bit they become something completely different. made some pieces with the same reliefs as those last ones, but which hhad neon set up behind the panels and in Girect lighting so that the shapes seemed {ose out of the wall and also had shadows on them. These pieces were very large and hea, and they no longer exis, Atte time, there were people who made neon art and such, actualy modeling the neon lighting salt. | were to do this naw it would probably be with indirect lighting using LEDS. Hira: Did you do itby darkening thet comer ofthe room? Ima: Yes. ust remember it now: from our 418th exhibition onwards, a darkened room was set up for the Gutal Exhoitions. And the room was derkened for bath the From Space to Environment and Light and Environment shows too.In any case, exhibitions weren't just brightly It spaces anymore, and increas ingly there wore rooms in which lightemiting ‘works are displayed that appear to float up ‘outof the darkness. ‘Around ths time, there were signs of @ com ing boom in printmaking. Now, Ive never had na Intalio vw of En (Gece to be presented ste Gust ‘ebion etre Guggerem Museum New vere 2012 much interest n printmaking mysel but | decides Fe give it try, so | was also doing things tke stamping shapes on iregularly cut paper, and making pieces | cut holes into, 0 you could see through tothe wall ln 1987, there was the Biennale de Pri. ‘The commissioner then was Visuke Nakahara {art etic, 1981-201 1) and for some reason, received a request to submit something in the prinkmaking section. Along with Yuri Nonaka, incidentally | believe Tomio Miki was inthe sculpture section, and Jiré Takamatsu's shadow paintings were chosen forthe palnt- ing section. One thing | forgot to mention ~ I was also ‘making fim pieces with the same method | used for those hole-punch places earlier, I use the hole punch to make one hole per frame, using 18mm leader and black fendestock. The thing i, when you project, at twenty-four frames per second, there's {going fo be some margin of errr that makes itquivr slighty no matter what. Then | put ‘8 goad variety of music with it Sot would ‘seem to shake intensely when the music was ‘ythmical, but whenever there was silence ‘or white noise, the movement would instead ‘apaea to slow dovin and become sluggish. | sent a four-minute projected image piece lke this fo the first S6getsu Experimental Film Festival and it was accepted. The chairman ‘of the awards committee that year lnc LUctusa (lm exte, 1908-1979), was giving ‘comments for each piece before it was sereened, but when it was time for mine, suddenly he seamed at a loss for words ‘and jst mumbled something to the effect ‘ofUm, please watch it (see 3) | never had an opportunity to contribute this fim piece tothe Guta Exhibition, but next year et the Guggenheln Museum in New York, there is going tobe an exhiiton ented Guta: Splendid Playeround (18 Fobruary ~ {8 May 2018) and the plans frit to be projected and displayed in booth at the {op level of the Guggenheim Museum spiral. 1°Hira: You have been giving us an overview of your works from this period, but atthe outset, with your reliet-forr pieces, when you moved away from creating those made with numeri cal symbols, what were your motivations and interesis? Imai: Although | wasnt particulary conscious of tat the time, when 1 was working with pasting numbers and newspaper and such, it was at around the time that people started using the term information society. made works with that kind of image in sind. Inf mation isnt only writen characters though — Its sound too. So, what if could express the inundation of sound ina visual way? Reading the newspaner one day, happened ‘ona nan item that said that ples of junk had been dumped ina ice fol, including old speakers and pachinko machines and the lie, think in Kasoma Gust outside Osaka}, rear the headquarters of Matsushita Electric. 30 | went to take a look, and found a lot of ‘ound metal frames thet support the paper cones in speakers. | took them home with me. | was thinking of attaching ther to canvases, and was trying out various things, and at one point when | meant to attach some cioth onto a panel, or some reason | ended up putting the clath over the speaker instead. looked at the rie and fall ofthe cloth and thought: “Oh, this might be interesting! and thats how 1 got started, ica: During that period, at the height of Informel in Japan, think there were a lot of ants who were trying to lve birth to some- thing new by throwing things at the surface ‘of the work, by wrestling with paint on top ‘of i, and that sort of thing, But you soem to have had a sort of awareness of breaking ey from tha, a8 ifyou were delving for something even newer that would physically come bursting out ofthe canvas. Imai: On seeing /nformel, wit ts spattered pint and such | was fled withthe sense that that wasn't what | wanted to be doing, Around that time, was going to see exhibi- tions lke Tends in Contemporary Art (Gendal jutsu no D6ks), and I remember feeling that ‘work ike YukbisaIsobe's rows of emblems ‘was more to my tking. Hirai: Even as it leaves hints of hand tech ‘ique, of something human, there's an inorganic feel to it, as well Later on in the late 1960s, more and more moving and light= ‘emitting works started appearing that looked systematized 2s ifthe artists were having ‘them made by factories. ma-sonsel it seems to me that your work from the early 1980s was a forerunner of that kind of awareness and expression. 20 Imai: Well ve never realy cared for pieces that made you feel the sweat of the maker ut tying to loave as few hand traces a6, possible or get rid of them altogether, Im not So sure what the point ofthat is, So, that's the sort of orientation We had in making work. Hira: We have seen that you were involved in many other activities besides Gutal. ‘se0ms to me that at that time, not many of the people in Gutal were going around participating in exhibitions outside of the {group But did you feel fee in that regard? Imai As you know, Gutal is often separated Into periods, such as early middle and tate, According to that way of catogorizing, I was therefrom partway nto the mile period until we beoke up atthe end, Frem 1964 onwards. But recently at symposium forthe Gutei ‘exhibition held at the National Art Center In Tol, which you were in charge of Ming Tiampo made the statement thatthe separation between the early period andthe late period can be made in 1982 And that sounds perfecty easonable to me That i to sayit was in 1962 that | myself first encoun- tered Gui. | think there isa huge difference between what Gutai was before Gutai Pinac- ‘theca opened its doors, and what it became afterwards. Originally, we had shown our work ‘ouside, with exhibitions ike the International Sky Festival, After the creation of the parma- rent exhibition space that was the Pinaco- ‘aca, Gul, which had developed through such a great variety of stuations up uni then, ‘was to converge on painting, and eventually focus on exhibitions of quite a subdued sort Nevertheless, and this was true for me, but also for Sadaharu Horio, Minoru Yoshida end ‘others too, while we might have assumed ‘as new members that we would be able to ‘engage in offsite-muscurlke activities, ‘such opportunities were actually few and far botwoon, Inthe days of Guta's early period, ofthe art happening after the war, only Guta stood out, ‘as everything else had an academic stance. But by around 1982 things hed changed. “Tokyo had the Yomi Icépendant Exhibition and all kinds of avant-garde groups were forming Unroughout the country, and the gap, {suppose you could cali the diference in level between Gutal and everyone else, had pretty much disappeared. So, while contit- ting to Guta}, | had exchanges with artists ‘outside of Gutai as well, and got invited to participate in their exhibitions. ‘Athough a the beginning, Yoshiherasensei apparently gave off the vibe tat his permission ‘was needed to participate in other extitions, I cid pot feel any such restictons, He might have gotten angry with you ifyou put out bad ‘work, but he didnt quibble over such things. "Norio Imai and Shichi HiraiHira: t seems as if your interests wore shift- ing away from a systematized kind of work, land moving more and more towards project- ed images, and things that have no sense of reterialty While this was not unique to you, Imai-sensei, as modes of expression in Japa nese contemporary art as a whole may have been turning broadly in such a direction, even ‘0,1 imagine that being in Gutal things might have boon a bit diffrent Imai: Yes. Because in Guta, towards the end, there were aspects that made it fe! lke a restrictive place for my work o be. And that ‘was why, after Yosbihara-sensei died, and the question arose of whether to continue Gutal ‘orto break up, | was among the fist o say ‘Break up! Gaushs) Hira: So it was something that everyone ‘decided in the end? Ima: Yes, twas. Hira: Imai-sensel | would tke to ask a litle ‘about how the work you did around the time ofthat last period of Gutai would be reflected in your actity after the breakup. From Space fo Environment is now being re-evaluated ~ at 2 recent symposium in Tokyo, ‘and in other related projects too, the exhibition has been treated as a central theme. Earler there was some mention ofthe names of pho- tographers in that exhibition, but there were a= chiltects, graphic designers and others partic paling too, and I believe that this event realy acted as a turning point inthe development of postwar Japanese art, a moment when genre ‘was taken apart and the vewpoint ofthe atst di indeod shift rom space to environment. Now, you contributed work to that exhibition, Sensei, but have such exhibitions in any way acted as an impetus for your own interests to ‘extend into the environment, tothe streets of the cy? Imak: Yes. think as a kind of reaction tothe continued Indoor showings hald solely at Gutai Pinacotheca, there was an awareness cof wanting to do things outside. And actualy, ‘the members who had been there since the beginning... limagine they were kind of tired out (laughs), because they relly weren't doing anything but exhibitions ary more. ‘few Guiai members put together an ephibition called Gutal At forthe Space ‘Age (Uchi Jidai no Bijutst), at a facity at ‘an amusement park in Nishinomiya, HySgo Prefecture, known as Hanshin Park and which Is gone now Katsuhiro Yamaguchi (artist, 1928) from Tolyo and others often came to see these developments in Gutsi. Hira: So, there weren't many people in Gutai ‘engaged in that kind of expressive activity? Imai No, not many New members were being brought in rom around 1988, the late period, ‘and there was a kind of scouting of atts who had been working on ther on orin other ‘ups. People Ike Motonao Tekasak, Minors ‘Onoda and! Aine Kinashi to name a few Around ‘hat time, there was within Gutal a kind of ‘cohetitation of vrious types of work that had begun to tke place. So in a way twas tke @ macrocosm of contemporary art asa whole. Hira: As the youngest member, you watched Gutai throughout is later years, Looking back ‘on it now, what kind of group would you say Gutel was? {mak Wel, in Guta, whon you showed a piece to Yoshinara-sense, he'd enlysa"Okay oF ‘Dossnit work Why it was okay or why it wasnt, \vas something you just had to figure out on your own, So if you were tld it ant work, you just hal to respond with the next piece you mace.| think that Gusi was a group that arose aut of pursuit of pure expression, We \were doing it only because we wanted to see nd crete tings that had never been seen before, But there was also the atmosphere oft being a study group mado up ofall the ‘members. Within that sphere | think Yoshinarax sensei was the absolute compas, And for me personaly as said earlier, Gutal was my point of entry into contemporary art. | think of ts whore | got my original sense of purpose, my rools, asthe ats | have become. Starting in round 1986, my second year contfouting to Gutai Exhibitions, as there ‘wore many other exhibitions happening too, had one fot inside Guta and one foot oul Everybody was older than me, soit was a bit stifing in some ways (laughs). So while eit sad when Gutai broke up, onthe other hhand, in some ways it was a relief Even so, though inthe years after the breakup Ive done photography and video art and the like, and then worked on public art-type projects, around the time | turned fit began thinking seriously about Gutal again ‘When | reached the age Yoshihara-sensei was at the beginning of Guat it reall hit me:'So, ‘his Is how old Yoshinara-sansal was when he gathered young people together and started Guta’ Until then, been indifferent to Gutal's bistory and had never given much thought to ‘what happened in what year and such but ‘aw | had the chance to be conscious oft ‘once more, Only recently has it occurred to me that learned a great deal of what | know fom Guia maybe even everyting Hira: At the time ofthe formation of Guts, Ipeieve Yoshihare-sensel was forty-nine, From a personal standpoint too i really strikes me what an amazing feat it must have been for him, at this age to start bringing all those young people together. aImai: Yoshinara-sonsei died when he was Sixty-seven, and Gulal broke up. As 1am near that age mysel,| begin to think about various things all over again Japanese professor in the audionce: What ‘was your impression of Yoshihara-sensei When you frst met? Imai | had already met him before he came to 500 my first solo exhibition, atthe Pinaco- theca, think. He seemed very distant. And then he was far above me in terms of age 00, of course. Sut ater! had begun putting ‘out workin Gutal, when the time came for iy solo exhibition at the Pinacotheca, at one point | had to go and get a writen statement {rom Senco for the exhibition pamphlet, and then he looked over my CV for the fist time, and said to me:'Oh, you're young! And as he ‘mentions in his eemarks there, he'd realized only then that | had bean a teenager when weld first met afew years earlier think thats really how he was ~ he only looked at the -woris he never paid any attention to whose student you'd been or what kind of baci ‘rund you had, but he would purely engage with the work. 'So,| dont think Yeshihara-sansel looked at people's works analytically but instead d ‘mined things the way a wild animal does va its sense of small with a kind of artists intuition. But towards the end, when photo fraphic works started appearing inthe group, ‘there were times when he got toe place ‘where he'd say to himself dont relly know how to evaluate this" At the Gutai Exhibition then, there was a black-and-white print contributed by Kumiko Imanaka it was an oblong piece, made with a photo of a cabbage feld. And wnen he saw it he just seemed to think net really sure ‘hat | can say about It’ Because you knew yeu were looking at cabbages, but when you ‘moved away slighlly the whole image would become like an abstract painting. Although he had maintained in his eary Gutai Manifesto thet Gutal was always abstraction, with the ‘appearance of such works it seemed to me that contemporary art had arrived at a place that could no longer be assessed using Yoshhara-sense’scrltera. And so,it the Gutai group was essentially something of Jirb Yoshihara's generation, then 4 say the timing was just right to break up, But! think thatthe spirit of Guta was not ited solely to the members ofthe group, buts something that was shared by other artists of that period, and that has been iner- led by young arists who have emerged since then, even if they have not been conscious oft. As 8 group, Gutai was realy Captain Ji and his crew Jaughs) fy instead of looking at tas just a single group it can be taken 2s a jumping-off point from which something can 2 be learned, am sure that the spirit of Gutai will extend beyond Yoshihara and continue Into the future, Hira: Imai-sense!, you have referred to your time in Guta es Gutai University. And it did in fact coincide withthe period of time when {you would have been a university student Imat One of the things that led to this exh- bition was thal, fo nineteen years unl this March | was employed at Seian University of ‘Art and Design in Shiga Profecturo, and for my exhibition to commemorate my retirement ‘rom the university, | decided to try setting up some ofthe piaces I made when | vas the ‘seme age as my students, as thet might be ‘something that would feel familiar to them ‘and would also be sutable to do ata univer- sity Here | had been teaching at 2 university, ‘while | mse had just dived into Guta with- ‘out going to art school, which in a way meant that ray university had been Gutal Sol ‘decided to call the exhibition My Days at ‘Gutai Univority (Gutoi Daigaka! no Kor). Recently have been making works that deal with the frame as their theme, and | am sure people will notice points of commonality with my works from that period. The swelled- ‘ut pieces have some presence within them that can be sensed — another side of the surface, the backsides of places that have ‘been peeled, both over there and over here. With the frames there's a kind of awareness of inside and outside, And then there isthe fact that Ive never used colour much. | simaly ‘make pieces that are white or the colour of the material And I think this has also been 1 good opportunity te look at the work doing nov, Hira: Wel, we have can out of time, so lets stop here. Thank you very much for coming today.‘Book published on the occasion ofthe exhi> bition of Noro imal at Axel Vervoordt Gallery fom March 1440 April 21,2013, \Viaeykensgang - Oude Koornmarkt 16 2000 Antwerp Belgium ++ 82 (0) 477 68 80 60 wnwaxeivervoordtgallerycom ‘Concept: Novo imal, Axel Vervoordt Etltors: Luc Deryeke, Ami Fuld, Kate Ntayne, Jenke Van den Akkerveken Executive editor: Jonke Van den Akkerveken ‘Text: Axel Vervoordt, Ming Tiempo, Midori Yoshimoto, Shichi Hira ‘Quotes: ichirs Haru, Toshio Matsumoto, Kazuo Shiraga, Toru Takahashi, Loe U-Fan, Jieé Yoshihara “Translations from Japanese: Seth Yarden, except forthe quote by Lee U-Fan,. 49 CGhrstopher Stephens (p. 48) Photography: ‘Abistory in Images: Kelzd Kobashi (ig. 45), “Takuma Nekahica (ig, 8), Sakiho Sakai tg. 48) Kiyotoshi Takashima (fig. $4) Tankuro: Takashi Hatakeyama: pp.61~63 Prats: Jan Liégeois Photo courtesy: Ashiya Clly Museum of Art & History Hyégc: fig. 4,7,8,9 (A Conversation) and fig. 7,20, 22, 28 (A History in Images) ‘Awol and May Vervoorot Foundation: plates 1,2,7, 12.13 Tha Solomon R. Guggenheim Foundation, New York: Tankuro rendering pp. 64-65 Norio mat al other historic images Graphie design: Luc Derycke & Jeroen Wille, Studio Lue Derycke Printing and binding: Cassochrome, Waregem ‘Special thanks te: Noro imal for his ‘warm hospitality and for digging into his photographic archhe, ARTCOURT Gallery sirector Miteue Yagi for her strong beat in ‘this publication and her assistant Ari Fulda for her enthusiasm and hard work, Shichi Hira for turning en ingpiting talk session into ‘ wonderful text, Ming Tiampo and Midori Yeshimoto for their insightful words, Mizuno ‘Kat for helping us find the sght historic images and of course Tatsuré Mik for being the best guide and a source of inspiration Publisher: Axel and May Vervoorct Foundation ‘Co-publisher: ARTCOURT Gallery, Osaka Published by: AsaMER, an imprint of MER. Paper Kunsthalle Geldmunt 36 2-900 Gent ‘© MER Paper Kuncl, 2018, swimurerpepeanathale arg fe 203 Nevo “es © 2018 the authors Protagrapy © 2013 the photographers Historie mages related ote Gutal At Assocation (the foe members of me ut At Assocation Alt ose ‘© 2513 val ant May Vera Foundaon ‘wnnseevanorttcom IsaN e7eo490803009 ovs0ra 7858/1685, voy fer has baon mad to ace capitate. {however you fa you have inadvertent been oer ‘ooted plate conte! he pubtone, ‘We re ory grill to ARTCOURT Glory tho Dahiya ily Musou of At & History ard the Solomon FR Gvggertesn acu for har King eataborain ana stp