PROFESSIONAL AUDIO LOVERS

log in
Forums

navigation
...

info

recording studios

Mixing and Mastering

Tips for surround setup

Discussion in 'Mixing and Mastering' started by Andrew, Sunday at 9:06 AM.

Andrew
AudioSEX
Maestro
Staff Member

Hi there folks, it's been a while since I opened new thread.

In my new apartment, I'd like to build "pro" surround system for mixing and mastering, likely a
quad 4.0 setup. Last week I experimented with 4.0 and was really impressed even in untreated
room. Only the bass was muddy.
Bass is an issue, subs are super expensive and most of the time, the bass feels detached from
the rest of the spectrum, being mono and mostly overpowered. While in most electronic genres,
it's correct procedure to mix bass in centre, it's not a rule for acoustic genres (just look on
orchestra charts where basses are seated), so it's preferable to avoid an LPF and single sub.
In "correct" 4.0 system, the speakers ought to be positioned in a square, but that tend to bring
practical drawbacks - (not enough desk space, awkward rear speaker positioning, ...)
So does any of you have experience with surround monitor positioning and tips on treating the
room for multi-speaker systems?
My existing equipment:
Four Behringer 1C entry studio monitors
Two Tripath Class-T TA2020 based amplifiers
Budget - possibly below $300
Last edited: Sunday at 9:11 AM
Sunday at 9:06 AM

junh1024
Producer

4.0 is good. That way you can detect phasing issues btw C & LR. No sub is good.
You don't want to get into the LFE/sub mess, as
99% of the time, the LFE is abused aka upscaled from the other channels
For digital, the LFE is +10dB then sent to the sub (BMS may apply if you have satellites)
and hence consumers miscalibrate their subs for the abused LFE+bass management.
I can't comment on treatment, mine's untreated & it's fine. [How do I PM you?] I don't use the
sub most of the time.
Quad 4ch has traditionally been 4 speakers in a square. Some panners (like cinema/Premiere)
have 5.1 side speakers in a square.
For ITU 5.1, imagine a circle, with a centerpoint on your seating position. ITU 5.1 reccomends:
place LR +-30deg and LSRS +-115deg on the edges. 115* is the surround position, but you can
place them a bit further back, maybe 135*-145. 115* is actually a compromise btw 90 & 135.
If you're mixing for ITU 5.1 (30,115), use ITU panners (waves 360). Free panners exist for
REAPER (which I use), but may not be ITU 5.1. Only dynamic pans will differ from layout2layout,
as some pans may travel too slow/fast between speaker pairs depending on mismatch btw
physic layout & plugin, which is why for mixing music I prefer static positions around the edges.
(WOuld you like a guide on mixing music in surround?)
Really, your music should sound goot in all configurations. irregardless of layout.
For my setups, I don't have much choice - the rears are a bit narrower than desired due to
space/layout constraints.
If you've got a 4ch from 2x2, the big annoyance is two separate volume controls. Many people
have speakers + AV Receiver to do 5.1 (or whatever) so that they've got a SINGLE volume
control, or try a PC AIO system like the logitech z906.
Love it! x 1 List

Sunday at 9:36 AM

Andrew
AudioSEX
Maestro

Staff Member

junh1024 said:
If you've got a 4ch from 2x2, the big annoyance is two separate volume controls. Many people have speakers + AV
Receiver to do 5.1 (or whatever) so that they've got a SINGLE volume control, or try a PC AIO system like the logitech
z906.

My intention is to build a case for the two TA2020 PCBs and link the volume control to a
potentiomenter with four tracks, such as ALPS RK501.
Otherwise thanks for your very informative post.
I thought LFE gain was +20dB for AC3, but looks like I was wrong.
Last edited: Sunday at 10:03 AM
Sunday at 9:44 AM

junh1024
Producer

+10 cuz a single LFE can make noise as loud as the 3 front ch combined in 5.1

Sunday at 10:35 AM

Andrew
AudioSEX
Maestro
Staff Member

From the looks of it, Altiverb 7 XL has only 8 spaces compatible with surround, that's one pure
waste of money compared to regular version.

Sunday at 2:21 PM

junh1024
Producer

You can:
Use 2x2ch reverbs for 4ch mixing. Wow. Much control.
Use a dedicated mch reverb like Waves R360 6ch, Acon Digital Verberate Surround 8ch,
VIRSYN REFLECT 12ch
Careful don't use 2 much reverb, else it may ruin the discreteness.

Monday at 12:44 AM

Andrew
AudioSEX
Maestro
Staff Member

2x2ch doesn't work well for convoluted spaces, where realism is first priority. IR360 has lots of
options, but Altiverb does support surround too.

Tuesday at 8:33 AM

boomope
rator
Ultrasonic

In filmsound, a sub is a dedicated channel with no relation to the other channels, solely used for
Low frequency effects (LFE). In a movie-theatre, the LR & C speakers are already full range, with
sufficient low end.
Multichannel playback of stereo music however is always an up-mix, where the sub and other
speaker signals are derived from the stereo signal. But mind you, this situation is prone to
acoustical problems like cancellations and many many room modes. To reduce them, you'd
have to build massive traps around your room, even building extra drywalls filled with mineral
wool.
I'm a big fan of surround sound, but for music, I think only Ambient could benefit. There's not
much low frequency in Ambient, any acoustical problems don't have to be perceived as bad,
they're just part of the perception, lol..
With beat driven music, that is a total different story..
Interesting read: fixing low frequency problems with hollow tubes. Haven't tried it myself, but it
makes sense:
http://web.archive.org/web/20010803052829/http://www.headphone.com/EditorialHeadroom
/RoomTubes.asp
(note: the link to chapter 2 only works from the contents page)
Tuesday at 12:11 PM

junh1024
Producer

boomoperator said:
In filmsound, a ... is a dedicated channel with no relation to the other channels, solely used for Low frequency
effects (LFE). In a movie-theatre, the LR & C speakers are already full range, with sufficient low end.

(LFE +10dB for digital = sub, this is with no additional BMS)

Not having a sub, and not using the LFE is absolutely fine, especially for music. Andrew's 5"
Behringer 1C entry studio monitors are fine. My L&R are smaller than that.
What you've described above, is what's supposed to happen, but actually doesn't. Ideally, you
should place unique, but complementary sounds in the LFE, so that it's fine if consumers play
with, or without a sub/LFE. Some movies have no LFE/don't use it.
Spoiler

See also http://www.ambisonic.net/dvda.html#bass

boomoperator said:
Multichannel playback of stereo music however is always an up-mix, where the sub and other speaker signals are
derived from the stereo signal. But mind you, this situation is prone to acoustical problems like cancellations and
many many room modes.

You can stick stereo on L & R only, which is what's been done for some movies. This is fine.
Upscaling stereo music to surround could also be fine, depending on FX chain, material, and
upscaler specifics.

boomoperator said:
I'm a big fan of surround sound, but for music, I think only Ambient could benefit.

boomoperator said:
With beat driven music, that is a total different story..

Not sure what you're trying to say here, but I've been mixing music is discrete surround for a
few years (aka placing discrete sounds in C/Rear) sounds fine.
Here is one downmixed to quad, padded to 6ch (blank C, LFE):
http://www.mediafire.com/download/o2bv9oc2ngg6phd/6LRSmidi2-40n.m4a
credits: me, Blue.Nocturne, Jayster
If you want more examples, PM me.
Last edited: Yesterday at 4:58 AM
Yesterday at 1:00 AM

boomope

rator
Ultrasonic

My post was to warn Andrew to just put 4 speakers in a room with 2 x the same stereo signal
(and maybe even a Sub derived from that stereo signal), as it would be a bitch to treat a room
acoustically in that situation. I wasnt talking about dedicated surround mixing of music.
I made the equation with filmsound because here, the separate signals are unique, and
acoustical problems would be far less.
About beat driven music versus Ambient: If you only play ambient in a 4 speaker setup, I guess
thats fine, but with any other genre, aforementioned acoustical problems will be severe without
proper trapping.
interesting vid about Basetrapping:

Subwoofer Acoustic Treatment - Managing Subwoofers

Yesterday at 11:15 AM

Andrew
AudioSEX
Maestro
Staff Member

boomoperator said:
My post was to warn Andrew to just put 4 speakers in a room with 2 x the same stereo signal (and maybe even a
Sub derived from that stereo signal), as it would be a bitch to treat a room acoustically in that situation. I wasnt
talking about dedicated surround mixing of music.

Um, I never wanted to do 2x2, I only mentioned 2x2 in relation to the amplifiers, not the input
signal. There it's obviously 4 unique channels.

Today at 6:20 AM

(You must log in or sign up to reply here.)

Similar Threads - Tips surround setup

Forum

Date

First Single: Mix Critique/Tips

Mixing and Mastering

Jun 21, 2016

Tips for sequencing complex 808 rhythm for trap beat

how to make "that" sound

Jun 13, 2016

First track.. DnB - need advice/tips/help/etc

Our Music

May 16, 2016

Tips & Signal Mixing/Mastering Chain

Mixing and Mastering

Apr 22, 2016

Preparing new Deep House EP, What's your tips?

Electronic

Apr 12, 2016

Edge Blending & Warping

The most versatile software solution for multi projector setups