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COPWATCH.com Forum - How the U.S. Corporate Media Got the Israel Flotilla Catastrophe So Wrong
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Night Raven How the U.S. Corporate Media Got the Israel Flotilla Catastrophe So Wrong
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How the U.S. Corporate Media Got the Israel Flotilla

Catastrophe So Wrong
By Arun Gupta, AlterNet
Posted on June 16, 2010, Printed on June 16, 2010
Registered: May 2008 http://www.alternet.org/story/147197/

Location:
Posts: 4812 Amid the continuing fallout over the deadly confrontation aboard the
Gaza aid ship, Mavi Marmara, there is a critical historical lesson:
There is only one real victim, and that is Israel. Sure, the “small,
isolated” nation may appear to have been the aggressor, having
surrounded a humanitarian convoy in international waters with naval
assault boats and helicopters before storming in with heavily armed
http://www.copwatch.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42038 (1 of 15)7/11/2010 11:56:47 PM

elite forces killing and wounding dozens of civilians, but it was acting
in self-defense.
Appearances are deceiving because understanding Israel’s eternal

victimhood requires the proper mindset. And once you have the
proper mindset, there is no need for facts. Atlantic Monthly’s Jeffrey
Goldberg, who has been hanging “around a lot of Israeli generals
lately,” kindly advises us that there should be “no particular pain felt
for the dead on the boat.” On the other hand, “There's real pain in
Israel...pain at the humiliation of the flotilla raid, pain on behalf of
the injured soldiers, and pain that the geniuses who run this country
could not figure out a way to outsmart a bunch of Turkish Islamists
and their useful idiot fellow travelers.”
Some might ask if we should feel “no particular pain” for the dead of
Sept. 11. Or perhaps we should follow the lead of the White House –
which sees no point in condemning Israel’s killing of civilians in the
flotilla because “Nothing can bring them back” – and not condemn
the architects of Sept. 11 or the Madrid and London bombings
because that won’t bring back the dead. But that is the thinking of
“idiot fellow travelers.”
Hillary Clinton provides further insight, explaining how benighted

Arabs who “are not sure what democracy means” should look to
Israel – “a beacon of democracy” – as an example. We can now draw
the first conclusion: only Israelis experience pain, while Arabs are not
evolved enough to grasp the concept of democracy, Israelis are the
only true humans worthy of our sympathy. A point the Washington
Post understands, stating, “We have no sympathy for the motives of
the participants in the flotilla.”
A second principle, Clinton explains, is that only Israel has “legitimate

security needs,” whereas Palestinians’ “legitimate needs” are limited
to “sustained humanitarian assistance and regular access to
reconstruction materials.” Because Palestinians “are not sure what
democracy means,” their needs do not include an end to the siege,
basic human rights or a viable state.
We should also assume Israel is a “peace-loving society” that offered

to escort the flotilla of “naiveté and malice” to the “Ashdod Port and
arrange for the delivery of their supplies to Gaza, after security
checks, over land.” It was just trying to prevent “the flow of seaborne
military supplies to Hamas,” the Israeli ambassador wrote in the New
York Times. The New Republic reveals another conclusion: The
incident involved “a ship of terrorists” attempting “to open an arms
importation route to Gaza.” Once again, the Washington Post
provides the only context we need to consider, “So far there’s been
no indication the boats carried missiles or other arms for Hamas.”
One could add that so far there’s been no indication the boats carried
chemical, biological or nuclear weapons for Hamas.
One can never be sure because Israel’s enemies are so sinister that
Washington Post columnist Charles Krauthammer alone comprehends
that “the point understood by the blockade-busting flotilla of useful

idiots and terror sympathizers … is to deprive Israel of any legitimate

form of self-defense.” Krauthammer deduces brilliantly, “The world is
tired of these troublesome Jews, 6 million – that number again –
hard by the Mediterranean, refusing every invitation to national
suicide. For which they are relentlessly demonized, ghettoized and
constrained from defending themselves, even as the more committed
anti-Zionists – Iranian in particular – openly prepare a more final
solution.”
If you’ve been paying attention, you can see that if Israel let the
flotilla deliver food and medicine to Gaza, it would inevitably result in
a second Holocaust.
Israel was only asking to search the flotilla’s cargo for banned “war
material” such as coriander, ginger, nutmeg, dried fruit, fabric for
clothing, nuts, musical instruments, chickens, donkeys, horses,
fishing rods and newspapers.
Reports about Israel’s years-long siege of Gaza – where “more than

60 percent of families do not have enough food to eat, there are daily
electricity cuts and the water network is operating far below
capacity,” or how Israel allowed in less than 25 trucks of supplies a
day on average until recently whereas “Gaza requires a minimum of
400 trucks a day to meet basic nutritional needs” – are irrelevant.
Sure, Israeli policy may be to “put the Palestinians on a diet,”
fulfilling Army chief Gen. Rafeal Eitan’s longing to turn Arabs into
“drugged ****roaches in a bottle,” but the “humanitarian situation in
Gaza is good and stable” and people there dine out on “beef
stroganoff and cream of spinach soup.” Providing added confirmation,
the New York Times observes that in Gaza “daily life, while troubled,
often has the staggering quality of the very ordinary,” a quality that
would have applied to Soviet gulags, Japanese internment camps,
the Warsaw Ghetto, South Africa’s Bantustans and South Vietnam’s
strategic hamlets.
Still, we should not lose sight of the fact that the Palestinians of Gaza
are such a primitive species that Israel has determined they need
only 100 items on a “complex and ever-changing list of goods” for a
“good and stable” life as opposed to the 4,000 types of goods allowed
in before the severe blockade imposed in June 2007 or the 10,000-
15,000 items that can be found in a large Israeli supermarket.
In any case, “concern for Gaza and Israel’s blockade is so out of

balance,” counsels Thomas Friedman, who excels in his role as the
third grader explaining how the world works at the second-grade
lunch table. He suggests we focus concern instead on the bombings
of mosques of an Islamic sect in Pakistan, the killings of activists in
Iran and the trashing of a children’s summer camp in Gaza.
But noble-minded Israel still shows concern. Just as it is always

seeking peace with hostile Arab neighbors bent on annihilating it,
Israel was willing to deliver supplies that are in abundance in Gaza in
spite of the “Gazan terrorists [in charge] who proclaim their goal is to
destroy Israel.” So “if anyone goes without food, shelter or medicine,

that is by the choice of the Hamas government.” “The likely outcome”

will be that the people of Gaza “will be abandoned. … to be ruled by
the ruthless and undemocratic Hamas regime without the
international community's protests or objections.” Therefore, we can
see how the aid flotilla will make things worse for the people of Gaza
– whom Israel is trying to help – by leaving them in the hands of the
“ruthless” terrorists.
It’s another example of how Israel is victimized, like when it selflessly

disengaged from Gaza in 2005. But Israel’s generosity, including
firing more than 7,700 artillery shells into northern Gaza in less than
a year after its withdrawal, was met with Hamas rockets, which is
why one senior Israeli official had to threaten Palestinians with a
“bigger shoah.” Some claim “Israel remains the occupying Power as
technological developments have made it possible for Israel to assert
control over the people of Gaza without a permanent military
presence,” but this is the view of terrorist sympathizers like former U.
N. Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the
Palestinian territories John Dugard. Then there are “Hamas
sympathizers” who ask why, if Israel disengaged from Gaza, does it
still control its coast, airspace, borders, commerce, fuel, water and
electricity; why have Israel and the United States rejected Palestinian
and Arab offers of a two-state solution based on the 1967 borders for
some 40 years; and why has Israel sabotaged virtually every
ceasefire Fatah and Hamas have agreed to in recent years, even
unilateral ones.
These misperceptions persist because they fail to grasp the postulate

that Israel only “responds” to attacks from the sub-human Arabs.
Dugard and his ilk claim, “History is replete with examples of military
occupation that have been resisted by violence – acts of terror,” and
while “such acts cannot be justified, they must be understood as
being a painful but inevitable consequence of colonialism, apartheid
or occupation.” The Hamas apologists even include current Israeli
Defense Minister Ehud Barak, who once said, “If I were a Palestinian,
I would join a terror organization.” This talk should not lull us into
seeing the Palestinians as victims because they do have rights. They
“have the right to remain silent while Israel starves them, kills them
and continues to violently colonize their land.”
Now we can correctly perceive the confrontation between Israel and

the “hateful terrorist sympathizer[s]”. Because the U.S. and U.K.
understand the issue is Israel’s right to defend itself, the question we
should be asking is how naïve, little Israel was outsmarted by
“Islamists and their useful idiot fellow travelers,” who were
responsible for and welcomed the bloodshed. The flotilla “aimed to
provoke a confrontation” and was intended “‘to break’ Israel’s
blockade of Gaza,” noted Leslie Gelb, the dean of the U.S. foreign
policy establishment, echoing the line from Fox News to the
Washington Post. The paper of record indicated that organizers
wanted to provoke a “violent response from Israel,” agreeing with the
Jerusalem Post, which stated the “‘peace militants’ … attacked the
soldiers who boarded the ship with guns, iron bars and knives and led
to the dire results they were looking for.” This fact did not escape the

Obama White House, with one “senior” official saying, “the organizers
of the flotilla were clearly seeking a confrontation – and tragically
they got one.”
Ever restrained, the Jerusalem Post connects the dots. Because the
“peace militants … hatred towards Israel knows no bounds,” and
“wanted to cause some damage, no matter the cost for them,” they
are like suicide bombers because “the aim justifies the means.” If the
lesson is still unclear, Max Boot, Leslie Gelb’s colleague on the
Council of Foreign Relations, spells it out in the Wall Street Journal.
The “blood was on the hand of the pro-Hamas activists” because
“Israel, like the United States and other democratic nations, is at a
severe disadvantage trying to combat a ruthless foe willing to
sacrifice its own people to score propaganda points.” Boot may be too
generous in calling the activists “pro-Hamas,” however. The Israeli
ambassador reveals they are actually Hamas’ “sponsors [who] cower
behind shipments of seemingly innocent aid.”
Passengers may have included European legislators, U.S. diplomats,

a Nobel Peace Prize laureate, Israelis, artists, historians, doctors,
clergy and journalists from around the world. But Israel was not
battling civilians on a “mission of mercy,” writes the great
humanitarian Marty Peretz. In fact, the Turkish sponsor, the
Humanitarian Relief Fund, “is said to have ties to Al Qaeda. Which
would be logical since Al Qaeda is an ally of Hamas.” Furthermore,
Peretz illuminates, Hamas is the “Gazan outpost of the global jihad”
and “second cousin once-removed of Hezbollah.” Thus, in stopping
the aid flotilla, Israel was really battling a branch of the devious
global jihad that hates the West irrationally. (Hamas is also “an
Iranian pawn,” which may seem confusing because Iran and Al Qaeda
are fierce enemies, as are Hamas and Al Qaeda, but such are the
complexities of the Middle East that only experts like Peretz can
divine.)
Prior to the deadly attack, there were eight previous attempts to

deliver aid by sea, including ships that Israel chose not to confront
and which delivered goods to Gaza without incident. This time, the
Israeli navy spent “many weeks … preparing to meet the flotilla,” the
military admitted three days before the raid that it planned to use
violence, and the Israelis warned the captains of each ship while in
international waters that “lethal force would be used if they
persisted.” Despite all this, we learn from the Wall Street Journal,
Israel “walked into a trap set by a flotilla of Hamas sympathizers;”
from the New York Times, it “blundered” into a trap; from the L.A.
Times, it “fell into a trap;” from the Financial Times, it “sail[ed] into a
Turkish trap; and from the Guardian, it was “lure[d] … into a trap.”
If it seems curious that prominent media all conclude that golden-

hearted Israel was duped, such is the “blatant double standard”
applied to the “small, isolated” nation that “is destined and
compelled, like a puppet on a string, to react the way it did.” That
double standard also requires that the Israeli ambassador, counsel
generals, embassy officials, academics, novelists, and journalists, and
their American supporters, be given a largely unchallenged platform

in the mainstream media.
The task at this point would appear to be disentangling what

happened during the actual raid. For instance, why were the
“outnumbered, under-equipped and incorrectly prepared
commandos” – who also happen to be “the best trained and most
effective in the world” – “taken off guard by a group of Arabic-
speaking men”? Why has one journalist, Max Blumenthal, been able
to force Israeli officials to admit they doctored photos and audio clips
released after raid or show they falsely claimed five passengers were
“active terror operatives”? Why have eyewitnesses on the Mavi
Marmara said “live ammunition was fired before any Israeli soldier
was on deck,” and “The Israeli navy fired on the ships five minutes
before commandos descended from ropes that dangled from
helicopters”? There are also the questions that Uri Avnery has
compiled, such as why is Israel claiming Gaza’s territorial waters are
part of Israel’s territorial waters when it has “separated” from it; why
were five people on the Mavi Marmara shot in the back; “What is the
source of the lie that the Turks called out ‘Go back to Auschwitz’”;
and “Who invented the story that the activists had brought with them
deadly weapons”?
All these questions miss the point. Israel is still the victim, even if it’s
a “self-inflicted wound,” so say the Times from New York to L.A. You
see, Israel made the mistake of trying to justify its actions with
evidence. It forgot that reality has a well-known terrorist bias. When
the facts sympathize with Hamas, terrorists and drugged
****roaches, Israel needs to dispense with the facts. Because we
know Israel is the eternal victim that is all we need to know. All that
matters is how Israel says it perceives the situation.
Arie (Lova) Eliav, one of the “granddaddies of the Israeli Left” and a
founder of Labor Party, who died literally hours before the raid on the
flotilla, put it best in an interview six years ago, saying, “We acted as
they would have done to us.” While he was speaking about Israel’s
founding war of aggression, the statement justifies every actual
Israeli atrocity since 1947 and any future one. Since Israel is
confronting “ruthless, indiscriminate animals” its response is only
limited by the imagination. After all, according to the Obama
administration, “the president has always said it will be much easier
for Israel to make peace if Israel feels secure.” And how does Israel
feel? “Israel has long seen itself as the Alamo, a fortress under the
siege,” a former U.S. ambassador to Israel explains.
The next time there is news about Israel killing activists, massacring
children, bombing a refugee camp or perhaps obliterating an entire
country, there is no need to pay attention to the facts. All you need
to know is Israel, the eternal victim that says it will never feel secure,
is just responding to some terrorist. And once the last ruthless animal
is exterminated, there will be “peace.”
Arun Gupta is a founding editor of The Indypendent newspaper.
© 2010 Independent Media Institute. All rights reserved.

View this story online at: http://www.alternet.org/story/147197/
__________________
"We have become a Nazi monster in the eyes of the whole world -- a
nation of bullies and bastards who would rather kill than live
peacefully. We are not just whores for power and oil, but killer
whores with hate and fear in our hearts. We are human scum, and
that is how history will judge us... No redeeming social value. Just
whores. Get out of our way, or we'll kill you."
--Dr. Hunter S. Thompson, Kingdom of Fear (2003)
"Society had a crime problem, so it hired cops. Next thing society

knew, it had a cop problem."
--Tom Robbins
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
06-16-2010 08:15 AM
Night Raven Independent journalists dismantling Israel's hold on media narrative

Senior Member
Role of the Media

Independent journalists dismantling Israel's hold on media
narrative
Abraham Greenhouse, Nora Barrows-Friedman, The Electronic

Intifada, 15 June 2010
Registered: May 2008 http://www.opednews.com/populum/lin...p?linkid=113587

Location:
Posts: 4812
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The systematic attempt and very deliberate first priority for the Israeli
soldiers as they came on the ships was to shut down the story, to
confiscate all cameras, to shut down satellites, to smash the CCTV
cameras that were on the Mavi Marmara, to make sure that nothing
was going out. They were hellbent on controlling the story,"
commented Australian journalist Paul McGeough, one of the hundreds
of activists and reporters who witnessed the deadly morning attack on
the Gaza Freedom Flotilla on 31 May ("Framing the Narrative: Israeli
Commandos Seize Videotape and Equipment from Journalists After
Deadly Raid," Democracy Now, 9 June 2010). McGeough was one of at
least 60 journalists aboard the flotilla who were detained and their
footage confiscated.
Within hours of the Gaza-bound aid flotilla being intercepted and

besieged in international waters by Israeli commandos, who killed at
least nine -- some at point-blank range -- aboard the Mavi Marmara,
news of the bloody attack had spread across the globe. Rage,
condemnation and calls for an international investigation followed.

Meanwhile, Israel's campaign to spin the attack, distort the facts and
quell an outraged public was already in full swing. Concurrently,
activists and skeptical journalists began deconstructing the official
story and assembling evidence to uncover the truth behind the violent
deaths of activists on a humanitarian mission to the besieged Gaza
Strip.
From the time the Israeli military apparently jammed the flotilla's
communications, and for the next 48 hours as survivors were held
incommunicado, their cameras and potentially incriminating footage
seized, Israel's account of the raid dominated international headlines.
Central to Israel's media strategy was the rapid release of selected

video and audio clips which, the government said, validated its claim
that passengers had violently attempted to kill troops without
provocation -- thereby forcing the soldiers to use live fire in self-
defense. However, the initially and most widely-distributed clips bore
signs of heavy editing, including the obscuring or removal of time
stamps.
Although the clips apparently depicted passengers aboard the Mavi

Marmara hitting Israeli troops with poles and other objects, the
context of the images was completely unclear. It was impossible to
determine at what point during the assault the clips had been filmed,
raising questions about exactly which party had been acting in self-
defense.
Al-Jazeera's Jamal Elshayyal, among others, corroborated accounts by

other flotilla passengers, including Israeli Knesset member Hanin
Zoabi, that the Israeli commandos had allegedly started firing before
commandos began rappelling to the deck of the ship ("MK Zoabi:
Israel wanted highest number of fatalities," YNet, 1 June 2010;
"Kidnapped by Israel, forsaken by Britain," Al-Jazeera, 6 June 2010).
These clips were quickly supplemented by footage put on YouTube,

also heavily edited, which Israel said had been taken from the ship's
security cameras and from the journalists whose equipment had been
seized ("Flotilla Rioters Prepare Rods, Slingshots, Broken Bottles and
Metal Objects to Attack IDF Soldiers," 2 June 2010). The Israeli
military spokesperson's office also distributed numerous still images
allegedly documenting fighting on the deck.
After the commandeered flotilla ships were brought to the Israeli port
of Ashdod and were unloaded, on 1 June the Israeli Ministry of Foreign
Affairs (MFA) began distributing via the Flickr website photographs of
objects it said were found aboard. Materials the MFA classified as
"weapons"-- thus supposedly supporting its claim that activists had
planned to conduct a "lynching" of Israeli troops -- were identifiable to
the public as standard nautical equipment and kitchen utensils
("Weapons found on Mavi Marmara").
In addition, the ships were inspected multiple times prior to setting

sail for Gaza, both by Turkish customs authorities and by an
independent security firm, and had been found at both points to

contain no weapons, according to a Free Gaza Movement press release

("Did Israel deliberately murder civilians aboard Freedom Flotilla?," 3
June 2010). Participants also say that all passengers were subject to
thorough security checks before boarding, regardless of where they
embarked.
These photographs of "weapons" became the first flashpoint in the

effort to analyze and expose inconsistencies in Israel's claims. Shortly
after the release of the images which appeared on the MFA's official
Flickr page on 1 June, commentators began calling attention to the
fact that several of the images included digitally-encoded information
indicating that they had been shot several years prior. The MFA
responded to this by modifying the dates, and issuing a statement that
one of its cameras had been incorrectly calibrated.
While this claim can be neither confirmed nor disproved, the gaffe
exposed the fact that Israel's rush to promote its version of events in
the media was leading to significant mistakes and oversights. As
surviving flotilla passengers began to be released and expelled
following detention in Israel, the accounts they gave of events aboard
the ships -- and on the Mavi Marmara in particular -- clearly diverged
from the official Israeli narrative.
Journalists aboard the ship, some of whom had been able to broadcast
via satellite for a limited time during the assault, told interviewers that
they had been singled out for attack by Israeli troops. "We had
cameras round our necks and our press cards in our hands, but the
soldiers kept aiming the lasers of their guns at our eyes in order to
intimidate us," Turkish journalist Yuecel Velioglu of the AA news
agency told Reporters Without Borders ("As Turkish photographer is
buried, other journalists aboard flotilla speak out," 9 June 2010).
In addition, much of the footage released by Israel (after heavy

editing) was taken from journalists aboard the ship after their
equipment had been confiscated. The move was strongly denounced
by Israel's Foreign Press Association (FPA), which stated on 4 June:
"the use of this material without permission from the relevant media
organizations is a clear violation of journalistic ethics and
unacceptable."
Determined not to allow the Israeli government to continue

dominating public discourse on the flotilla attack with its questionable
version of events, independent journalists around the world analyzed
and identified inconsistencies with the Israeli narrative. This work
played a pivotal role in making a more complete and accurate picture
of the events available to an English-speaking audience: the vast
majority of English-language corporate media outlets, with the notable
exception of Al-Jazeera English, simply restated Israeli claims and
conducted little or no investigative work to ascertain their validity.
Images and the elimination of context
Another photograph released by the Israeli military spokesperson's

office aroused additional controversy when it began appearing in news
articles about the incident. The image, which featured an anonymous,

bearded man holding a curved knife, was generally presented with a

caption, also sourced from the Israeli military, claiming that the knife-
wielder was an activist aboard the Mavi Marmara photographed after
Israeli troops boarded the ship.
Ali Abunimah, co-founder of The Electronic Intifada, immediately

noticed clear inconsistencies with the context of the photo, casting its
veracity into doubt. Abunimah pointed out on his blog that behind the
man, natural light could be seen streaming in through a window --
despite the fact that the raid was conducted during pre-dawn hours.
Additionally, the man was surrounded by photographers who seemed
unusually calm for onlookers in the midst of a firefight ("Israeli
propaganda photo in Haaretz of man with knife make no sense
#FreedomFlotilla," 31 May 2010). Finally, a few days after the image
first appeared, the image was re-used in a video montage, published
on YouTube under the newly-registered handle "gazaflotilliatruth", but
this time with less cropping. In the new version of the image, the
bearded man can be seen to be sitting down, not standing -- again, an
unusual physical position to display during a melee ("Gaza Flotillia -
The Love Boat," 2 June 2010).
Investigative journalist Max Blumenthal reports that the Israeli

military-sourced caption -- repeatedly used by media outlets such as
the Israeli daily Haaretz -- indicated that the bearded man was holding
the knife after the commandos boarded the ship ("Nailed Again: IDF
Description of Suspicious Photo It Distributed Is Retracted," 8 June
2010).
Following his query to the Israeli military spokesman's office, Haaretz

"scrubbed its caption of the suspicious photo." Blumenthal adds that
Haaretz "did not mention the retraction, probably assuming no one
would notice. The retraction raises disturbing questions about the level
of coordination between the IDF [Israeli army] and the Israeli media."
Nor did they mention that the bearded man was Yemeni Minister of
Parliament Mohammad al-Hazmi, who was displaying his ceremonial
dagger -- an essential part of traditional Yemeni dress -- to "curious
journalists and foreigners on the ship," as Blumenthal points out,
obviously well before the attack.
New accusations instantly dismantled
As the accounts of surviving passengers began receiving increased

attention in the mainstream Western press, Israel retaliated with a
series of increasingly dire accusations to discredit them. The serious
nature these accusations makes it difficult to understand why the
Israeli government would have waited so long to issue them. As
journalists began evaluating the new claims, they found Israel's
supporting evidence to be flimsy and periodically even nonexistent.
One such accusation, published in a 2 June MFA press release, was

that 40 Mavi Marmara passengers had been identified as mercenaries
in the employ of al-Qaeda ("Attackers of the IDF soldiers found to be
Al Qaeda mercenaries," 2 June 2010). Later that day, US State
Department spokesperson Philip Crowley said that his office could not

validate Israel's story, and independent journalists on the ground in

Tel Aviv promptly set out to investigate for themselves.
Blumenthal and his colleague Lia Tarachansky were told bluntly by the
Israeli army's press office that the military didn't "have any evidence"
to support the MFA's contention. By the morning of 3 June, all
references to al-Qaeda had been removed from the online version of
the press release ("Under Scrutiny IDF Retracts Claims About Flotillas
Al Qaeda Links").
More significantly, on 4 June, Israel released a YouTube clip which it

claimed was an excerpt from radio communications between the
Israeli navy and the Mavi Marmara. The clip included a voice telling
the Israelis to "go back to Auschwitz," and another voice stating
"We're helping Arabs go against the US," in response to Israeli
statements that the vessel was "approaching an area which is under a
naval blockade" ("Flotilla Ship to Israeli Navy: "We're Helping Arabs Go
Against the US, Don't Forget 9/11 Guys," 4 June 2010). The latter
statement was made in an accent resembling that of the American
south, despite the fact that no one from that region was present
aboard any of the ships. Numerous bloggers commented that the
accents sounded as though they had been faked, and ridiculed the
quality of the apparent forgery.
One of the flotilla organizers, US citizen Huwaida Arraf, was astonished

to find that the clip included her own voice as well -- even though she
had not been aboard the Mavi Marmara, but was on a different vessel.
Tel Aviv-based journalist and blogger Mya Guarnieri noted that Arraf
told the Bethlehem-based Maan News Agency that the clip of her
voice, saying "we have permission from the Gaza Port Authority to
enter," seemed to have been excerpted from communications during a
previous flotilla trip (there have been nine trips since 2008) ("Israel
under fire for doctoring flotilla recordings," 5 June 2010). "When they
radioed us [on this trip], we were still 100 miles away," Arraf
remarked.
Blumenthal called attention to the mysterious presence of Arraf and

other discrepancies in the clip in an article he posted on 4 June. The
following day, the MFA issued a statement admitting that the clip had
been substantially edited ("Clarification/Correction Regarding Audio
Transmission Between Israeli Navy and Flotilla on 31 May 2010," 5
June 2010). However, the clip including the "Auschwitz" statement
remains on the MFA website in a new "unedited" version of the alleged
transmission.
High-tech sleuthing uncovers a web of deceit
Perhaps most damaging to the credibility of Israeli accounts was a

map published by Ali Abunimah on his blog and which was produced
by using archived transmissions of Automatic Identification System
(AIS) data to plot the position of the Mavi Marmara as it sailed on the
morning of the raid ("Did Israel press on with bloody attack on Mavi
Marmara even as ship fled at full-speed?," 7 June 2010). Using the
map, Abunimah was able to determine the location and heading of the

ship as it broadcast updates on its status. The map also plotted the
position of the Mavi Marmara at the exact points when surveillance
camera footage from the ship -- which Israel had released without
obscured time stamps -- was apparently recorded.
According to AIS data, the Mavi Marmara had been heading south --
parallel to the Israeli coast and more than 80 miles from the shore --
until approximately 4:35am local time. At this point, the ship abruptly
turned west, heading away from the Gaza coast.
The attack, which surviving passengers say began shortly after

4:00am, was reported to Greek activists in direct communication with
the ship at some point before 4:51am. However, the time stamp seen
in the released security camera footage and described in a caption as
being the point at which "rioters initiate confrontation with Israeli
soldiers," indicates that the clip was filmed at 5:03am. This is
reinforced by the fact that the sea is apparently lit by natural light,
which would not have been possible an hour earlier.
This evidence directly contradicts Israeli claims regarding the sequence

and timing of events, and throws its overarching narrative into doubt.
While the vast majority of footage of the raid has been seized by
Israel, along the flotilla's Voyage Data Recorders (VDRs, the nautical
equivalent of aircraft's "black boxes"), activists have been diligently
archiving all available evidence to prevent Israel from altering or
destroying it. As more time stamped data becomes available, it will be
aggregated by activists and plotted on mapping applications not only
to help reveal what happened aboard the Mavi Marmara, but
guarantee a greater level of accountability when Israel responds to
future flotillas.
A significant amount of data is already emerging. Several of the

survivors managed to conceal memory cards from their Israeli captors,
the contents of which they proceeded to make available to journalists
upon their return home. Some photos, published in the Turkish
newspaper HaberTurk, depict passengers administering medical care
to wounded Israeli soldiers and even protecting them from being
photographed -- which seemed to contradict Israel's claims that
passengers were intent on a premeditated "lynching" of the Israeli
commandoes ("•srail'den kaçırılan foto•raflar," 4 June 2010).
Recently-released video clips from flotilla survivors show Israeli

soldiers kicking, beating and shooting passengers, including footage
which Turkey's Cihan News Agency says depicts the close-range killing
of Furkan Dogan, a 19-year-old US citizen, with automatic weaponry
("Israeli Soldiers Murdering Man Identified as Furkan Dogan," 10 June
2010). An autopsy determined that Dogan was shot five times,
including once in the back and twice in the head from almost point-
blank range. Other footage shows helicopters hovering above the
flotilla, with apparent muzzle flashes and sounds of gunfire, supporting
the survivors' contention that commandos were already firing before
boarding the vessels, thus prompting the limited resistance
demonstrated by terrified passengers.

International vs. internal investigations
The Israeli government continues to reject the idea of an international

investigation in favor of pursuing its own. On 5 June, the United
Nation's Secretary General proposed an international panel to examine
the killing of nine flotilla passengers, but Israel's ambassador to the
US, Michael Oren, announced on FOX News the next day that Israel
would refuse "to be investigated by any international
board" ("Transcript: Amb. Michael Oren on 'FNS'," 7 June 2010).
Those who demand an international probe have good reason to doubt

Israel's ability to investigate itself. According to Human Rights Watch
(HRW), which cited statistics from the Israeli human rights
organization Yesh Din, between 2000 and 2008, "Israeli soldiers in the
Occupied Palestinian Territories killed more than 2,000 Palestinian
civilians not involved in combat. Of 1,246 criminal investigations
initiated during the same period into suspected offenses of all kinds by
soldiers against Palestinian civilians, only 6 percent (78 cases) resulted
in indictments. Only 13 of those indictments charged soldiers with
killing civilians. As of September 2008, five soldiers had been
convicted for the deaths of four civilians" ("Why No Justice in Gaza?
Israel Is Different, and so ...," 1 October 2009).
HRW found a similar pattern in cases stemming from Israel's infamous

three-week attack on Gaza beginning on 27 December 2008. The
invasion, which caused the deaths of more than 1,400 Palestinians,
resulted in only one criminal conviction -- for the theft of a credit card
belonging to a Palestinian family after soldiers looted their home.
Regarding the flotilla attack, some sources in the Israeli government

have indicated that they would consider permitting one or more
international "observers" to be included in their internal investigation.
Governments around the world have insisted that this is not an
acceptable alternative to a genuine international investigation.
However, even a completely impartial group charged with investigating
the raid would be analyzing "evidence" (such as seized footage and
VDRs) that had been under the full control of the Israeli military since
the time of the assault.
Accountability and independent journalism
With little hope for a formal investigation with any degree of

credibility, independent journalists around the world have recognized
the need to mount their own. The work of independent journalists is
achieving a growing level of influence in the mainstream. And the
story of the Mavi Marmara killings, despite the unwillingness of many
professional reporters to publicly challenge Israel's version of events,
is no exception.
"This is an issue where, in the flotilla incident, the legal and moral
circumstances of Israeli abuse were so flagrant and visible that
independent media have a greater opportunity of being heard," said
Richard Falk, international law expert and United Nations Special
Rapporteur for Human Rights in the Occupied Palestinian Territories.
Should the UN or another impartial body mount an international probe,

it would "benefit greatly from [independent media's] active

undertaking to reinforce whatever investigation took place," Falk
commented for this story.
Independent journalists have already succeeded in cracking the wall of

Israel's narrative in the corporate media. For nearly an hour on the
morning of 5 June, most mainstream reports about the status of the
delayed fourth ship in the flotilla that had included the Mavi Marmara
relied almost exclusively on information gleaned from messages
shared between activists and independent journalists via Twitter. The
work of Abunimah and Blumenthal in debunking much of the Israeli
narrative was cited extensively in a post by The New York Times
blogger Robert Mackey ("Photographs of Battered Israeli Commandos
Show New Side of Raid," 7 June 2010).
On 10 June, a United Nations press conference was devoted to

presenting uncensored footage of the assault captured by filmmaker
Iara Lee, which promises to make global headlines with countless
images contradicting the Israeli version of events.
Paul Larudee, a San Francisco Bay Area-based activist who

participated in the flotilla and endured a severe beating which required
him to him to be hospitalized, believes that the success of independent
journalists in unraveling Israel's disjointed narrative has had a
transformative effect on the popular consciousness.
"Something's happening here. Perceptions begin to move," Larudee

said. "People are getting it -- they understand that a humanitarian aid
convoy was attacked, and the passengers were defending themselves,
despite the spin that Israel is creating in the media. Israel is not going
to be able to keep this up much longer. It's all starting to crumble."
Abraham Greenhouse is founder of the Palestine Freedom Project

(palestinefreedom.org), which specializes in studying and providing
support for the work of grassroots Palestine solidarity activists
worldwide.
Nora Barrows-Friedman is an award-winning independent journalist,

writing for The Electronic Intifada, Inter Press Service, Truthout and
other outlets. She regularly reports from Palestine, where she also
runs media workshops for youth in the Dheisheh refugee camp in the
occupied West Bank.
__________________
peacefully. We are not just whores for power and oil, but killer whores
with hate and fear in our hearts. We are human scum, and that is how
history will judge us... No redeeming social value. Just whores. Get out
of our way, or we'll kill you."


--Tom Robbins
06-16-2010 11:35 PM
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COPWATCH.com Forum - National "Flip a Cop The Bird" Day
COPWATCH.com Forum > NEWS SECTION > News: PROPAGANDA > National "Flip a
Cop The Bird" Day
Author Thread
liberranter National "Flip a Cop The Bird" Day

Super Moderator
Today is, apparently, "Thank a Cop Day." As the title of this

post suggests, I can think of a better way for us to show our
"appreciation" for these tax suck holes.
If you don't care to show your "appreciation" in such a crude,

confrontational manner, here's an alternative way of "thanking"
a cop:
Do some research and see if you can find a cop in your area
Registered: Jun 2005 who has "ratted" on the Fat Blue Line (rare as a virgin in a porn
Location: Tucson, AZ film, I know, but they're out there somewhere) and is under full-
Posts: 5865 scale institutional assault by the bullies in blue. Come to his or
her defense. Make a donation to cover his or her legal fees, if
he or she has any. Do something to help his or her family out if

they have one. In other words, stand up for this RARE cop who
is trying to do the right thing and restore a modicum of respect
to a profession that has long since lost its worthiness of any.
THAT, IMO, is the best way to "thank" a cop.
__________________
"Whensoever the General Government assumes undelegated
powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force." -
Thomas Jefferson
"Oink If You Hate Freedom"
"And this brings us to a point that has to be driven home with

the pitiless force of a jackhammer: It is the guilty, collusive
silence of good police officers that makes possible the ever-
accumulating atrocities of the 'bad' ones." - William Norman
Grigg
"If a nation values anything more than freedom, it will lose its
freedom; and the irony of it is that if it is comfort or money that
it values more, it will lose that too.
— W. Somerset Maugham, Strictly Personal (1941)
04-16-2010 11:31 AM
Night Raven
Senior Member
quote:
National "Flip a Cop The Bird" Day

Today is, apparently, "Thank a Cop Day." As the title of
this post suggests, I can think of a better way for us to
show our "appreciation" for these tax suck holes.
Registered: May 2008 If you don't care to show your "appreciation" in such a
Location: crude, confrontational manner, here's an alternative
Posts: 4812 way of "thanking" a cop:
Do some research and see if you can find a cop in your

area who has "ratted" on the Fat Blue Line (rare as a
virgin in a porn film, I know, but they're out there
somewhere) and is under full-scale institutional assault
by the bullies in blue. Come to his or her defense. Make
a donation to cover his or her legal fees, if he or she
has any. Do something to help his or her family out if
they have one. In other words, stand up for this RARE
cop who is trying to do the right thing and restore a
modicum of respect to a profession that has long since
lost its worthiness of any. THAT, IMO, is the best way
to "thank" a cop.

Now I would be the last one to suggest to a group of ne'er-do-well

juvenile delinquents that their idea to write "Tax Suck-Hole" or
"Copscum Pedophile" in large, industrial strength bleach letters on a
copscum's lawn should be a responsible act. I wouldnt tell these
young hoodlums that their idea to squirt superglue into the
doorlocks of a copscum's car was a good one either.
I DO think that liberranter's idea to support the patriotic acts of

those who reveal the lawbreaking and corruption among their
community's copscum is a sound one. Those who are willing to
reveal the illegal acts of copscum are the true police "heroes" in this
country--or in any other totalitarian police state. They really do
deserve our money and support.
__________________
"We have become a Nazi monster in the eyes of the whole world --
a nation of bullies and bastards who would rather kill than live

--Tom Robbins
04-16-2010 01:16 PM
liberranter Maybe get your local Mom-and-Pop donut shop to donate five
Super Moderator dozen "filled" donuts that are "filled" with chocolate Ex-Lax[Tm]
cream?
On a related note, my grandson's Cub Scout den was given the

project the other night at their weekly den meeting of writing
"Thank You" notes to the local pigs. A pointless exercise at best,
since most of the recipients of these "thank you notes" can't
read on the level that these first graders write. While the den
mother planned on delivering these notes to one of the local
pigpens today (foolish soul, this woman, VOLUNTARILY walking
Registered: Jun 2005
into one of these dens of rapist bullies alone), she did give the
Location: Tucson, AZ boys the option of "taking the notes home to finish them." My
Posts: 5865 grandson did exactly that: "finishing" his note by tossing it into
the kitchen trash can where it belonged.

This is just one incident of several I've encountered over the

last nine months demonstrating that the scouts, once an
organization that actually instilled pride and accomplishment in
young boys, has, like most of the rest of this nation's "youth
organizations", degenerated into a state-worshiping cult. My
sincere hope is that my grandson will lose interest in it sooner
rather than later; I can think of much better ways for him to
develop than to do so amongst a pastle of mindless, authority-
worshiping dolts (and adolts who "lead" them).
__________________
Thomas Jefferson

Grigg
04-16-2010 01:53 PM

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and is fully protected by copyright, trademark and other intellectual property laws. No material appearing on this site
may be reproduced without the express written permission of Copwatch.com, Inc.. All material posted in the Forum
section of this site consists of the personal opinions of the poster, (irrespective of any conflicting statement in any given
post), and none of the material posted in the Forum section necessarily represents the views of Copwatch.com, Inc., or
its agents, representatives, or assigns. Copwatch.com, Inc. does not warrant the accuracy of any material appearing on
this site. Copwatch.com, Inc., expressly disclaims any and all warranties, express and implied, with respect to the
material here appearing.

COPWATCH.com Forum - The Latest Pro-P!g Abomination to Hit Cable TV
COPWATCH.com Forum > NEWS SECTION > News: PROPAGANDA > The Latest Pro-P!
g Abomination to Hit Cable TV
Author Thread
liberranter The Latest Pro-P!g Abomination to Hit Cable TV

Super Moderator
This:
http://tlc.discovery.com/tv/police-...aricopa-county/
I can't even stomach having to look at the 10-second ads for

this latest "reality" pig propaganda show that is polluting the
cable channels (in the mode of the [canceled, dare we hope?]
"She-swine of Broward County").

Can someone tell me, without getting into graphic detail,
Location: Tucson, AZ whether this is as god-awful as, or perhaps worse than, the
Posts: 5865 travesty that it's an obvious knock-off of?
Just curious...

__________________
Thomas Jefferson

Grigg
03-09-2010 04:48 PM

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COPWATCH.com Forum - Teflon Dick: How Cheney Uses Media For Protection
COPWATCH.com Forum > NEWS SECTION > News: PROPAGANDA > Teflon Dick: How
Cheney Uses Media For Protection
Author Thread
Night Raven Teflon Dick: How Cheney Uses Media For Protection
Senior Member
OpEdNews
Original Content at http://www.opednews.com/articles/Te...091130-

433.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Registered: May 2008 November 30, 2009
Location:
Posts: 4812 Teflon Dick: How Cheney Uses Media For Protection
By Linda Milazzo
On January 29, 2001, just nine days after taking office, Dick Cheney
created The National Energy Policy Development Group, commonly

known as the Cheney Energy Task Force. The task force was charged
with the critically important task of designing America's national
energy policy. Although the group's efforts would directly impact the
entire nation, the new Vice President refused to divulge the names of
its members or their specific activities, claiming the Executive Branch's
right to confidentiality.
To challenge Cheney's claims of privacy and acquire the names and

activities of the task force members, the Sierra Club and Judicial
Watch filed Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) lawsuits, but the courts
denied their initial requests and subsequent appeals. On July 18,
2007, the Washington Post revealed the names of members of the
task force, which included executives of major conglomerates Enron,
Exxon, ConocoPhillips, Chevron, the National Mining Association, and
more.
Cheney's refusal to divulge the identities of the members of his task

force was the earliest indication of the absolute power America's 46th
Vice President presumed. His refusal demonstrated the covert nature
of his Vice Presidency and his belief that transparency was not a
requirement of the Executive Branch. The policies and practices
predicated upon Cheney's presumption of confidentiality remained
constant for the full eight years of his Vice Presidency. They ushered in
the era of the Bush/Cheney Imperial Presidency that exercised
sweeping authority, bypassed established law, and caused widespread
concern amongst scholars and average citizens for the future of our
democracy.
On August 27, 2004, future Nobel Prize winning economist Paul

Krugman wrote the following criticism of Mr. Cheney's pursuit of
privacy and power:
"Mr. Cheney's determination to keep his secrets probably reflects more

than an effort to avoid bad publicity. It's also a matter of principle,
based on the administration's deep belief that it has the right to act as
it pleases, and that the public has no right to know what it's doing.
As Linda Greenhouse recently pointed out in The New York Times, the
legal arguments the administration is making for the secrecy of the
energy task force are "strikingly similar" to those it makes for its right
to detain, without trial, anyone it deems an enemy combatant. In both
cases, as Ms. Greenhouse puts it, the administration has put forward
"a vision of presidential power . . . as far-reaching as any the court
has seen."
From January of 2001 right through today, Dick Cheney has

committed unconstrained, and as yet unprosecuted offenses, that
include circumventing the Constitution, sanctioning unlawful torture,
contributing to the outing of a CIA agent, concealing information from
Congress, and lying the nation into war. The tragedy of Cheney's
unrestrained lawlessness is further compounded by his unprecedented
authority to preside over economic and foreign policies so calamitous
that they drove this nation financially, militarily and morally into the
ground. Despite his constant international and domestic catastrophes,

for his first six years in office Cheney's crimes were supported by an
ideological Republican legislative majority and a weak Democratic
minority, both of whom succumbed to Bush and Cheney's Unitary
Executive.
After the 2006 election, when Democrats took control of both Houses,
Speaker Nancy Pelosi refused to abide by her Constitutional duty to
investigate Bush and Cheney's crimes. Irrespective of public clamor for
backbone and accountability, the Democratic majority rolled over for
Bush and Cheney. They financed their plunder and allowed America to
decay from within. Structural chasms in bridges, roadways, pipelines,
and schools were matched by ideological chasms over religion,
economics, politics and war. As Americans battled each other, Bush
and Cheney bombed and tortured on, comforted by knowing there
would be no repercussion. For a full eight years, they wreaked havoc
on America and the world, and today, post administration, both men
remain free.
Bush and Cheney understand that they're vulnerable to prosecution.

Bush, for the most part, has stayed out of the limelight, though he's
recently become more visible, perhaps inspired by Cheney's success at
using THE BIG TOOL - the media - for protection. Since the beginning
of the Obama presidency, Cheney has used the media full on. He's
commandeered its major outlets, newspapers, cable and network TV,
and the most caustic outlet of all, talk radio, to attack the very sources
he knows could bring him down - the President and Attorney General.
Cheney's best defense is his mass media offense and he knows exactly
how to use it.
Dick Cheney has used the complicit American media, his most
powerful anti-prosecution tool, to near Machiavellian perfection. He
understands implicitly that American media employs no ethical
standards that would prevent it from promoting him despite the
atrocities he has caused. Regardless of his catastrophic failures, the
shameless complicit media freely provides Cheney the platform to
attack the President and Attorney General and advance his standing as
their fiercest political critic. Because of this granted visibility to
pummel Obama and Holder, Cheney is more able to establish himself
as a victim of partisanship should Obama and Holder try to charge him
for his crimes. Through widely broadcast speeches, like the one below
of Cheney bashing Obama on Afghanistan, the complicit media is
helping to immunize Cheney - and it's doing so knowingly.
It's baiting for ratings and justice be damned!
Cheney's transparent media offensive places him squarely, frequently

and loudly in the public eye attacking Obama and Holder, and setting
the stage for an adversarial relationship from which he can claim that
he's their target. He's banking on the theory of American
exceptionalism to keep his contrived "adversaries" from taking him
down. American exceptionalism implies that America as a nation is
superior to the rest of the world. In lesser nations, political rivals are
targeted and imprisoned. Exceptionalism presumes that superior

America, with its highly evolved democracy, would never do the same.
Exceptionalism presumes that political targeting only happens in
undeveloped and undemocratic nations led by unsavory leaders;
Mugabe of Zimbabwe, Museveni of Uganda, Nkrumah of Ghana, Putin
of Russia, have all imprisoned their opponents. Cheney's calculus has
determined that American exceptionalism would prevent America's
leaders from publicly engaging in tactics they condemn - like
imprisoning political opponents.
Last week, Cheney's Machiavellian strategy reached a whole new level

when his daughter Liz raised his status from political adversary to
political opponent by floating the prospect of candidate Cheney in
2012. Brilliant! Behold Dick's calculating progeny doing his bidding on
Fox TV:
What better protection from legal worries than planting the notion of a
presidential run, elevating Cheney from harsh critic to political rival.
It's the epitome of legal immunity in exceptionalist USA. Of course,
there's little probability that Cheney would actually run. His approval
ratings are dismal and he battles for breath whenever he speaks. But
this is media manipulation - not political reality. Truth rarely imposes
itself on TV.
Then there's the blogosphere, and the Keep America Safe website,
created by scions Liz Cheney and Bill Kristol to propagandize for
Cheney. The Cheney cabal is in full media combat when it comes to
protecting Dick Cheney.
Notice the front page attack on Attorney General Holder - though

Cheney's attacked Holder for a while.
On August 30th on Fox News, Cheney characterized AG Holder's

decision to conduct a review of CIA interrogations as 'politically
motivated,' laying the groundwork for Cheney's future claim of
partisan targeting should the AG investigate him. Recognizing that
Cheney and his "BFF" Donald Rumsfeld are thought to have instigated
and sanctioned the interrogations, there is strong indication that CIA
investigations would lead the AG directly to Dick Cheney. Here's
Cheney's politicization of Holder's decision, broadcast on Fox TV:
Could the Cheney media strategy be any more obvious than it is in this
video?
The saddest and perhaps most despicable irony in this symbiotic

relationship between Cheney and the all encompassing media is the
manner in which the media permits itself to be the tool to thwart
justice. I recognize that in this article I've reproduced the messages
Dick Cheney wants to send. But I've done so in the context of
revealing Cheney's manipulation. It's my sincere hope that all media
stop providing Cheney the wherewithal to immunize himself from
prosecution. But sadly that won't happen. American media thrives on
the point-counterpoint model, and Cheney has fashioned his offense
perfectly to fit it.

Author's Bio: Linda Milazzo is a Managing Editor at OpedNews. She's a

Los Angeles based writer, educator and activist. Since 1974, she has
divided her time between the entertainment industry, government
organizations & community development projects and educational
programs. Linda began her writing career over 30 years ago, starting
out in advertising and promotions. From 1976 to 1989, she operated
an independent public relations service providing specialty writing for
individual and corporate clients. Since 2003, Linda has focused on
political writing. Her essays, letters and commentaries have appeared
in domestic and international journals, newspapers and magazines.
She's an educator and creator of a writers' program she's taught
privately and in public schools. She currently facilitates an advocacy
writing workshop and is developing an advocacy writing program to be
implemented in public and private educational institutions and in
community based organizations. Linda is a frequent contributor to the
HuffingtonPost, Alternet, MediaChannel, Commondreams,
LAProgressive, AfterDowningStreet, SmirkingChimp, Buzzflash,
PDAmerica, AtlanticFreePress and to other respected news and opinion
websites. Follow Linda on Twitter at: http://twitter.com/LindaMilazzo
__________________
peacefully. We are not just whores for power and oil, but killer whores
with hate and fear in our hearts. We are human scum, and that is how
history will judge us... No redeeming social value. Just whores. Get out
of our way, or we'll kill you."

--Tom Robbins
11-30-2009 07:17 PM

pyo1 Our ancestors granted small liberties and such for those in these
Senior Member positions. IIRC, they gave us the power/right to remove them! WE
have the power, just haven't organized enough to use it!!!!
Registered: May 2009
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1565
__________________
I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable,
I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free
because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I
do.
~Robert A. Heinlein
11-30-2009 07:31 PM
liberranter "Teflon Dick?" Isn't that what Rome-on-the-Potomac is using to

Super Moderator "stick it to" us law-abiding citizens?
__________________
Thomas Jefferson
"And this brings us to a point that has to be driven home with the
pitiless force of a jackhammer: It is the guilty, collusive silence of
Location: Tucson, AZ good police officers that makes possible the ever-accumulating
Posts: 5865 atrocities of the 'bad' ones." - William Norman Grigg
11-30-2009 08:48 PM


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COPWATCH.com Forum - Top 10 law enforcement myths: Police terrorist propaganda
COPWATCH.com Forum > NEWS SECTION > News: PROPAGANDA > Top 10 law
enforcement myths: Police terrorist propaganda
Author Thread
Vigilance Top 10 law enforcement myths: Police terrorist propaganda

Senior Member
There ARE some laws police terrorists cannot abuse or get out
of.........the laws of physics.
quote:
Top 10 law enforcement myths
by: NICOLE MARSHALL World Staff Writer

Sunday, August 30, 2009
8/30/2009 3:32:29 AM
Registered: Apr 2008
Location:
Blame it on Hollywood.
Posts: 915
Police dramas and movies perpetuate many myths and

misconceptions about the jobs law officers do, the

officers themselves will gladly tell you.
Here's the real deal on some of the most common

myths they encounter countless times in their careers:
1. This isn't Hazzard County

Law officers don't have to stop at the city, county or
state line when they are in pursuit. The law of "hot or
fresh pursuits" allows law officers to chase a suspect
into a neighboring jurisdiction, said Tulsa Police Capt.
Travis Yates, a nationally recognized police driving
instructor.
"Just because the pursuit happens to cross over into

another jurisdiction, it does not have to stop like in the
'Dukes of Hazzard,' " Yates said. "It may work in
Hazzard County, but it does not work in real life."
It's the policy of the Tulsa Police Department to have a

supervisor monitor pursuits on the police radio. The
policy also requires that the supervisor give the
pursuing officers permission to leave the city, but that
is not required by law.
"The reason for that policy is simple: When you cross

into other jurisdictions, that brings other departments
into the mix, and you don't want to do that flippantly,"
Yates said.
Police also encounter people who mistakenly think that

if they make it home, they can't be arrested.
"It happens all the time that someone drives home,

runs to their house, and they think, 'Now you can't get
me,' " Yates said. "But, obviously, we can go get that
individual."
2. Don't put that in your mouth

Putting gum or mouthwash or even pennies or batteries
in your mouth won't help you beat a breath test for
alcohol, despite rumors to the contrary, Officer Jason
Willingham said. Plus, things like mouthwash and
breath spray can contain alcohol and could increase
your residual alcohol level.
Police are trained to check a suspect's mouth and then

wait 15 minutes before administering a breath test to
ensure that the results are not effected.
"It is not uncommon for people to play cat-and-mouse

games when it comes time for the test," Willingham
said. "I have seen muscle-bound guys and in-shape

runners act like they can't get enough lung capacity to

blow on the tube.
"Another thing that surprises me is the number of

people who think they are going to get out of the test
by acting like they passed out. Then they have lost the
opportunity to pass the test, and we place them under
arrest, anyway, based on the observation that they are
acting drunk."
3. You have the right to remain silent

Cops shows and movies perpetuate the myth that
officers have to read suspects "their rights" every time
they make an arrest. And every officer has heard
suspects claim that they should be set free if the
handcuffs go on without that recitation, like some sort
of game of Simons Says.
But the Tulsa Police Department's legal adviser, Phil

Cozzoni, explains that the Miranda warning is necessary
only in certain cases.
"If someone is in custody but the police don't have to

talk to them, they don't have to read them their
rights," Cozzoni said.
And if an officer wants to interrogate someone who is

not in custody — and a reasonable person realizes that
he or she is free to walk away — the officer does not
have to read the person his or her rights.
But if a person is in custody and being questioned, then

Miranda kicks in, Cozzoni said.
When someone is in custody and blurts out something

that might be relevant to a crime, those statements are
considered voluntary, since the person was not being
questioned, he said.
4. You get one phone call from jail

There may have been a time when the county sheriff
tossed a newly booked inmate a dime and said, "You've
got one call" — but not as long as Tulsa County
Undersheriff Brian Edwards has been in law
enforcement.
"I think that comes from old movies and televisions

shows," he said.
The Tulsa Jail's booking area has two phones, and

inmates can make free phone calls to arrange their
release from jail, he said. If they are combative,

however, they are placed in cells and do not have the

privilege of using the phone, Edwards said. Once they
calm down, they can make their calls.
Inmates also get to make a call when they have a

status change, and they can make collect calls from the
cell pods where they are assigned after being booked.
Edwards said jail standards are different in other

jurisdictions and have changed over the years.
"When I first started in my career in 1981, we had a

phone log, and they could make two complete calls
upon intake," Edwards said. "And on the weekends, if
they were good, they would get a three-minute phone
call.''
5. Slipping by under the radar gun

Drivers with the need for speed have tried putting foil
in their bumpers or rocks in their hubcaps and hanging
compact discs or chains from their rearview mirrors to
try to thwart police radar guns.
But Traffic Safety Officer Craig Murray, who teaches

rookies how to use a police radar, said that's just a
waste of time.
The radar guns work on the Doppler principle and strike

moving objects like a sound wave.
"Hanging chains, small metal objects, even furiously

honking their horn. We tell the rookies that these are
some of the wives' tales that some people think can
defeat radar," Murray said.
However, Murray said, heavy rain can have a distortion

effect, so police don't typically use radar guns in
rainstorms.
And, yes, police are aware of the things motorists do to

blow the cover of an officer working radar.
"When people flash their headlights to warn other

drivers we are out there, we call that the 'Paul Revere
Syndrome.'" Murray said.
6. One more time..."CSI" is a TELEVISION SHOW

The CBS police drama is like a thorn in the side of
every detective, perpetuating unrealistic expectations
and myths about what it takes to close a case.
"People think you can get DNA in an hour, and there

are certain things we can get DNA off and certain

things we can't," said Cpl. Gene Watkins of the Tulsa

Police Department's Crime Scene Unit.
Another common misconception is that police obtain

fingerprints at every scene. However, there are
complications to getting a good set of prints.
"People don't realize...they think we can get it off any

surface. In reality, it is very hard to get a print off
something," Watkins said.
And at many scenes, there may be a variety of

fingerprints from a large number of sources.
7. There is no such thing as a warning shot

Tulsa Police Rangemaster Sgt. Mike Eckert said
Hollywood has done a disservice to police by
perpetuating the use of warning shots and shooting
guns out of a suspect's hands.
"The biggest reason that we don't believe in the theory

of warning shots is that we don't shoot to scare
somebody, and that is basically what a warning shot is.
If we are going to resort to deadly force, that is
because we are trying to save our life or the life of
another, whether it be a citizen or another officer.
"A gunshot is strictly the highest level of force that we

can possibly resort to, and that is meant to do one
thing, and that is to stop the threat, not to scare
somebody into submission," Eckert said.
Similarly, the claims that police should shoot to wound

a suspect are unrealistic.
"The reality is that a well-placed shot is extremely

difficult to do, and it becomes even more difficult when
under the tremendous amount of stress that an officer
finds himself in when he has to resort to deadly force,"
Eckert said.
"It is not a responsibility that we take lightly. It is

strictly a life-and-death kind of scenario, and when you
are faced with that reality, shooting a smaller target is
not practical," he said.
"We shoot for the biggest part of the body on the

person that we can see, and if that happens to be the
center of mass — the chest of the suspect — then that
is what we are going to shoot at."
8. Sometimes a shoe is just a shoe

While working in the Tulsa Police Department's Gang

Unit, Officer Leland Ashley frequently took calls from

people who feared that gangs had infiltrated their
neighborhoods because they saw a telltale sign: tied-
together shoes hanging on telephone lines.
"That is a myth," said Ashley, adding that "we also

used to hear that people thought it meant that a gang
member has died."
Ashley said that when he was in the military, it was a

tradition among soldiers to throw their boots over
power lines when they were leaving their unit and
going home or transferring to another location. Along
those same lines, urban graffiti doesn't necessarily
mean gangs are in the area.
"There is some graffiti that is specific to gangs, but

some of it is done by taggers," Ashley said. "In Tulsa,
we really don't see that as much as they do in places
like L.A. and Chicago.
9. Isn't that entrapment?

There is a common misconception that undercover
officers have to fess up when asked, "Are you a cop?"
But Tulsa County Chief Deputy George Haralson, who
did many undercover investigations while working 12
years in the Tulsa Police Department's Special
Investigation Division, said that's not the case.
"If you are in a covert investigation, you can be less

than honest as to what you do for a living," he said.
When Haralson worked undercover, police did stings at

bars and clubs while investigating liquor-by-the-drink
violations. The question, "Are you a cop?" came up
quite a bit, he said. It's a common query in narcotics
and prostitution busts, too.
"Entrapment is if you are not already predisposed to

commit the crime and you are influenced to do it,"
Haralson said.
Undercover officers even take extra effort to prove that

they are not police when asked. Haralson said that in
his day, they had work shirts and business cards made
for a phony business called Diversified Industrial
Services, using SID — the initials of the police division
— backward.
"When they would ask what that was, we would say,

'We are diversified. We do just about anything related
to industrial services.' "

10. Red means stop. Green means go. Yellow means go

faster?
Not so fast, said Cpl. Mike Fitzgerald of the Tulsa Police
Department's Riverside Division traffic enforcement
unit.
Police can issue a motorist a $150 ticket for improperly

crossing an intersection while facing a yellow light. The
tickets are discretionary for the officers, and most of
them are issued when the motorist would have had
plenty of time to stop or clearly speeded up to try to
beat a red light.
Fitzgerald said he takes into consideration the driver's

proximity to the intersection when the light turns
yellow.
"If they enter on yellow and it turns red before they get
out, that is a red-light violation," Fitzgerald said.
The fine for running a red light is $200.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/arti...uk2681&allcom=1
08-30-2009 01:27 PM
Night Raven Most important myth

Senior Member
This article is spot on, Vigilance!
The only thing I have to criticize is that Number 1 should always be:
1. KOPSKUM ALWAYS LIE. NEVER BELIEVE ANYTHING FROM THE

ORAL CAVITY OF A KOPSKUM. FIND A RELIABLE SOURCE INSTEAD.
Registered: May 2008 __________________

Location:
Posts: 4812


--Tom Robbins
08-30-2009 01:49 PM
MGMAN quote:
Senior Member
10. Red means stop. Green means go. Yellow means go

faster?
Not so fast, said Cpl. Mike Fitzgerald of the Tulsa Police
Department's Riverside Division traffic enforcement unit.
Police can issue a motorist a $150 ticket for improperly

crossing an intersection while facing a yellow light. The
tickets are discretionary for the officers, and most of
them are issued when the motorist would have had
plenty of time to stop or clearly speeded up to try to
Registered: Jan 2008 beat a red light.
Location: Peoples Rebublik of
Georgia Fitzgerald said he takes into consideration the driver's
Posts: 1131 proximity to the intersection when the light turns
yellow.
"If they enter on yellow and it turns red before they get
out, that is a red-light violation," Fitzgerald said.
The fine for running a red light is $200.
BULL$HIT
Its NOT illegal to enter an intersection when the light is yellow. Its
only illegal when the light is RED!! If it turns red when you are
inside it you have not violated the law.
__________________
Mr Officer, The US Constitution is NOT just a formality, or something to sidestep!

When your butt is on the line the first thing you do is scream about “due process”
and the “rule of law”, how about extending this to the general public!
"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over, yet expecting different results."
Members of the NCIS (Narcotics Criminal Investigation and Suppression team)

that work in Stephens, Habersham and Rabun Counties in North East Georgia are
murderers! They killed a man in cold blood!!
DO NOT talk to cops, they are NOT your friend, and NOTHING good can come
from it. You have the right to stay silent, DO IT!

Furor fit laesa saepius patientia
Militamus sub spe.
Prius mori quam fidem fallere
Quietem nemo impune lacesset.
08-30-2009 04:38 PM
liberranter Re: Most important myth

Super Moderator
quote:
Originally posted by Night Raven
The only thing I have to criticize is that

Number 1 should always be:
1. KOPSKUM ALWAYS LIE. NEVER BELIEVE

ANYTHING FROM THE ORAL CAVITY OF A
KOPSKUM. FIND A RELIABLE SOURCE
Location: Tucson, AZ INSTEAD.
Posts: 5865
Exactly, and since these "top ten" originated from the mouths/
pens of kopskum, I have to wonder just how true (and self-
serving) they are.
__________________
Thomas Jefferson

Grigg

08-30-2009 05:21 PM

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COPWATCH.com Forum - Another sheriff tickets himself in pathetic publicity stunt:
COPWATCH.com Forum > NEWS SECTION > News: PROPAGANDA > Another sheriff
tickets himself in pathetic publicity stunt:
Author Thread
GC Marciano Another sheriff tickets himself in pathetic publicity stunt:

Copwatcher Extraordinaire
Sheriff issues himself a ticket for an unsafe lane change

Published: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 | 1:02 PM ET
http://www.cbc.ca/cp/Oddities/070410/K041006AU.html
GREEN BAY, Wis. (AP) - Brown County sheriff Dennis Kocken

didn't have to write himself a ticket. But he says it was the right
thing to do.
Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 9967
"As sheriff, I'm held to the highest standard in law enforcement.
How can I hold officers accountable if I don't hold myself
accountable?" he said. "I'm satisfied I'm doing the right thing."
Kocken issued himself a ticket March 27 for an unsafe lane

change, three weeks after he had rear-ended a suspected

speeder after that driver slowed to turn. Neither the deputy who
completed the accident report nor the Brown County district
attorney's office felt that Kocken deserved a citation.
"But it kept bothering me," said Kocken. "Finally I decided to

write myself a ticket. I felt it was the right thing to do."
The ticket carries a $160.80 fine that Kocken said he fully

intends to pay.
The 52-year-old sheriff told investigators he was trailing a

vehicle to determine its speed when he had to swerve to avoid
a snowblower wheel in his lane. He moved into the other
driver's lane and hit the car when the driver slowed.
The ticket marks the second citation in seven months that a

state law enforcement officer assessed to himself. In
September, Chief Dick Knoebel of the Kewaskum police
department wrote himself a $235 ticket for passing a stopped
school bus.
-------------
See also: http://www.copwatch.net/forums/show...

&threadid=18777
__________________
"The purpose and the principal effect of posting information about bad cops
on the Internet is to inform the public for its own safety, not to humiliate the
officer. Even if the collateral effect of the Internet posting is to shame the
officer, this effect is the result of the Officer's crimes. We agree with the
state that the right to be free from the shame, stigma and embarrassment
resulting from crimes committed by Sworn Officers of the Law is not the kind
of fundamental right contemplated by our constitution." - Illinois Supreme
Court
All statements and opinions expressed are my personal opinions and are not
to be viewed as fact. I am not a speaking agent for Copwatch and have no
authority to bind Copwatch or to act on its behalf. My opinions, ideas,
theories and beliefs are my own and are not necessarily supported,
condoned (or often even appreciated) by Copwatch, it's subsidiaries or
agents.
Report this post to a moderator |
04-12-2007 07:38 PM

liberranter I'll consider bowing down in reverential awe of these losers on

Super Moderator the day that one of them not only tickets himself, but has his
fellow thugscum seize his vehicle, mace him, beat the shit out
of him, and throw him into the slammer, all for a minor
infraction, after which he appears in public to state that he
deserves every minute and ounce of his treatment and that he
waives all of his rights to due process.
__________________
Registered: Jun 2005 Thomas Jefferson
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 5865 "Oink If You Hate Freedom"

Grigg
04-13-2007 01:19 PM
Maxima Re: Another sheriff tickets himself in pathetic publicity stunt:

Moderator
quote:
Originally posted by GC505

Neither the deputy who completed the accident report
nor the Brown County district attorney's office felt that
Kocken deserved a citation.
Well that's a big shock

Registered: Mar 2007
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 360 __________________
"THE CLAIM AND EXERCISE OF A CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT CANNOT BE
CONVERTED INTO A CRIME." - Miller v U.S., 230 F 2d 486. 489.
“I apprehend no danger to our country from a foreign foe... Our destruction,

should it come at all, will be from another quarter. From the inattention of the
people to the concerns of their government, from their carelessness and
negligence, I must confess that I do apprehend some danger. I fear that they
may place too implicit a confidence in their public servants, and fail properly to

scrutinize their conduct; that in this way they may be made the dupes of
designing men, and become the instruments of their own undoing. Make them
intelligent, and they will be vigilant; give them the means of detecting the wrong,
and they will apply the remedy.” — Daniel Webster, June 1, 1837
04-13-2007 11:18 PM
umm..
Junior Member
lol.
Registered: Oct 2008
Location:
Posts: 10 Report this post to a moderator |
10-12-2008 05:13 PM
Cavvyracer I have actually met this guy in real life (I am from Green Bay, WI)
Member and he is on a severe ego trip. At first meeting, he played nice so
you thought he was a "good cop on your side" but soon after
Registered: Dec 2007 talking to him he comes off as a very fake person, only hiding who
Location: Green Bay, WI he really is....this doesnt surprise me at all....
Posts: 47
__________________
"People should not fear their government, governments should fear
their people."
10-13-2008 03:13 AM

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COPWATCH.com Forum - US claims success in drug war:
COPWATCH.com Forum > NEWS SECTION > News: PROPAGANDA > US claims
success in drug war:
Author Thread
GC Marciano US claims success in drug war:

US claims success in war on drugs

The top US drugs official has said anti-drug efforts are having
the best results of the past 20 years.
Wednesday, 3 October 2007, 00:43 GMT 01:43 UK
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7025308.stm
John Walters, head of the Office of National Drug Control Policy,

said cocaine shortages had led to a jump in prices in 37
Posts: 9967 American cities.
Efforts on both sides of the Mexican border have disrupted the

flow of all drugs into the US, Mr Walters said.

But he said it had not yet been proven if the results could be
sustained over the long term.
Mexican traffickers extradited
Mr Walters was speaking as the US and Mexico work out the

details of an aid plan - expected to total $1bn - for Mexico to
help combat drug cartels.
About 90% of the cocaine entering the US comes through

Mexico.
"What's happened for the first time in two decades is we now

see widespread reports of cocaine shortages in the United
States," Mr Walters said.
Thirty-seven cities had reported "the lack of the ability to

receive wholesale amounts, kilo amounts, of cocaine in the
quantities previously supplied at prices previously charged", he
said.
As a result of the drop in supply, the price of cocaine had

increased by 24% and nearly doubled in some cities.
The drugs tsar credited Mexican President Felipe Calderon for

some of the success.
He said US investigators had been working closely with Mexican

authorities in their fight against the drug cartels.
Since Mr Calderon took office in December he has sent 25,000

soldiers and police to Mexican provinces plagued by drug
violence and it seems to be working, says the BBC's Duncan
Kennedy in Mexico City.
Several high-profile Mexican traffickers have been extradited to

the US in recent months.
Mr Walters also said that fewer American workers were showing

positive on drug tests and that there were fewer cocaine-related
hospital admissions.
The real challenge, he said, would be maintaining the results

over the long term.
__________________
Court

agents.
10-04-2007 12:27 PM
liberranter Re: US claims success in drug war:

Super Moderator
quote:
John Walters, head of the Office of National

Drug Control Policy, said cocaine shortages
had led to a jump in prices in 37 American
cities.

Posts: 5865
Shortages that were, as always, temporary and promptly
erased as new dealers, selling cocaine from alternative sources,
entered the market, thus restoring business to its usual, brisk
self.
Unfortunately, pathological megalomanical tax-thieving liars like

Walters are incapable of admitting such or that their crusade is
still an abysmal, counterproductive failure.
__________________
Thomas Jefferson

Grigg

10-04-2007 12:32 PM
GC Marciano John Walters, head of the Office of National Drug Control Policy
Attachment: walters.jpg
This has been downloaded 45 time(s).
__________________
Registered: Jul 2003 officer. Even if the collateral effect of the Internet posting is to shame the
Location: Chicago, Illinois officer, this effect is the result of the Officer's crimes. We agree with the
Posts: 9967 state that the right to be free from the shame, stigma and embarrassment
Court
agents.
10-04-2007 01:39 PM
AVENGER Most of our drug-importing military cargo planes are busy in the
Senior Member Middle East.
D'oh!
__________________
"...for I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against
every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
Thomas Jefferson
Registered: Feb 2007 "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do
Location: This is hell. nothing."
Posts: 679
Edmund Burke
"Better that ten guilty men go free than one innocent man be
convicted."
Sir William Blackstone, paraphrasing Genesis
Speed, surprise and violence of action.
10-04-2007 05:48 PM

Cataclysm Rpt: Mex Drug Cartels Earning Nearly As Much As Coca-Cola

The People should not fear the Wednesday, 03 October 2007
Government, the Government
should fear the People.
Arizona Republic
Marana, Arizona
A U.S. Border Patrol agent, lower left, and his dog, apprehend
eleven suspected undocumented immigrants caught in the desert
by Army National Guard helicopter pilot Major George Harris.
Tom Tingle / The Arizona Republic
A U.S. Border Patrol agent, lower left, and his dog, apprehend
Registered: Jun 2007 eleven suspected undocumented immigrants caught in the desert
Location: The edge of by Army National Guard helicopter pilot Major George Harris.
INSANITY we call "occupied"
Amerika.
Posts: 566
George Harris watches from a front-row seat the increasingly
sophisticated world of Mexican drug cartels as he skims his National
Guard helicopter 200 feet above the southern Arizona desert.
Harris commands an aviation unit for Operation Jump Start, a two-

year mission that sent National Guard troops to help secure the U.S-
Mexican border. Although stopping illegal immigration grabs most
of the public attention, slowing the flow of illicit drugs is a critical
part of the job.
Hovering above the Tohono-O'odham Reservation recently, Harris

pointed to a volcanic hill riddled with campsites where cartel
"spotters" take up key lookout positions to alert smugglers of
nearby patrols.
Such hideouts dot just about every hill Harris scouts in the 90 miles
between Marana and Why in Pima County. There are more than 100
well-armed Mexican spotters operating in Arizona at any time,
Harris and federal agents estimate.
The camps show how pervasive the Mexican drug-smuggling

operation has become and why congressional investigators said last
week that cartels "operate with relative impunity along the U.S.
border."
Mexican smuggling rings, now allied with Colombian cartels,

outspend, outgun and frequently outmaneuver government agents
from both sides of the border because of enormous revenues and
cunning operations.
The drug war is a mismatch in both countries. At best, government

statistics show, one load in 10 is seized at the border, where
Arizona has become the busiest marijuana-smuggling route.

Billion-dollar business
The Government Accountability Office estimated last week

that Mexican cartels earned $8 billion to $23 billion from U.
S. drug sales in 2005. The drug syndicate runs street distribution
gangs in "almost every region of the United States," investigators
reported.
The U.S. government estimates that 90 percent of Colombian

cocaine entering the United States comes through Mexico. That's up
from five years ago, when two-thirds crossed the Mexico border.
With $23 billion in earnings, the Mexican cartels would be nearly

the size of Arizona's two biggest companies combined: Avnet and
Phelps Dodge. They would rank 97th on the Fortune 500 list, four
spots below the Coca-Cola Co.
The money allows cartels to buy equipment, expertise and

weapons; bribe police; or hire well-trained army deserters. The
Mexican government fired or suspended nearly 1,900 federal
employees last year on corruption allegations.
"The only thing that holds the cartels back is their imagination,"
said Ramona Sanchez, special agent for the Drug Enforcement
Administration in Phoenix.
'Like a military operation'
In recent years, officials have arrested drug smugglers in Arizona

carrying shoulder-fired rocket launchers. They routinely find assault
rifles.
"It's like a military operation," said William Newel, head of the

Phoenix office of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and
Explosives. "If they can lay down suppressing fire to let smugglers
get away with their loads, they'll do it. So they want high-capacity,
high-power weapons."
Smugglers used such weapons five years ago to gun down Kris
Eggle, a park ranger at Organ Pipe Cactus National Monument and
a friend of Harris, the helicopter pilot.
"It's always the good guys that get it," Harris said as he flew
through a park canyon crisscrossed with smugglers' tracks.
There are so many tracks in the park that Harris won't let his family
visit.
Technology, expertise
The cartels' money also buys technology as well as expertise.
When the National Guard built steel vehicle barriers on the Tohono-
O'odham Reservation, smugglers engineered a ramp to drive over

them.
The Guard finished a triple fence at San Luis early this year, and
once-rampant illegal immigration there almost halted. But last
month, work crews discovered a tunnel 30 feet deep that ran under
the fence foundations and the water system. Authorities found 45
drug-smuggling tunnels, some with lights and air-supply systems,
under the border from 2000 to 2006. The rate is escalating.
Spotters can camp out for weeks in one spot, with smugglers
replenishing their provisions. The spotters use GPS equipment,
encrypted satellite radios and night-vision goggles to keep
smuggling routes open.
The canyons north of Menagers Lake are a popular spot. As Harris

flew over the area, he called it the "worst place on the whole
border, a nasty little joint," because of all the smuggling violence.
Just across the barrier at the border, the driver of a blue four-wheel-
drive vehicle watched Harris' helicopter glide by and then
disappeared in a cloud of dust.
Flying north, Harris encountered a dozen abandoned smuggling

trucks in the first three miles. National Guard troops familiar with
the region say there are hundreds of abandoned trucks.
Harris' Task Force Raven has seized 108 trucks in the act of
smuggling since July 2006.
Drug war marches on
The U.S. government has spent $397 million since 2000, helping
Mexico fight its drug war. The money has gone toward DEA offices,
law-enforcement training, border-security grants and helicopters.
"Smugglers hate helicopters," Harris said.
Cartel spotters are invisible from the desert floor. But from the air,
their hideouts are betrayed by arranged rock walls and cut brush
used for camouflage. As a National Guard officer, Harris does not
have the authority to arrest smugglers, so he catalogs the hideouts
and tells the Border Patrol.
"I try and get up in the hills and harass the scouts as often as
possible," Harris said. "It takes away the smugglers' eyes."
Attachment: 1003dope1003.jpg
__________________
The Bill of Rights Article II:
"A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state,

the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
"A free people ought not only be armed and disciplined, but they should have

sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any

who might attempt to abuse them, which includes their own GOVERNMENT." -
George Washington
Any statement I make is my opinion and covered by the US Constitutions

Right to Free Speech, so if you are offended, I do not care.
10-05-2007 04:17 AM
Cataclysm John Walters must be smoking the product flowing daily across the
The People should not fear the border.
Government, the Government
should fear the People.
__________________
The Bill of Rights Article II:
"A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state,

the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
"A free people ought not only be armed and disciplined, but they should have
sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any
who might attempt to abuse them, which includes their own GOVERNMENT." -
George Washington
Any statement I make is my opinion and covered by the US Constitutions

Registered: Jun 2007 Right to Free Speech, so if you are offended, I do not care.
Location: The edge of
INSANITY we call "occupied"
Amerika. Report this post to a moderator |
Posts: 566
10-05-2007 04:19 AM
AVENGER Sloppy Tradecraft Exposes CIA Drug Plane

Senior Member
I bet that some of you thought that I was reaching pretty far out on
a limb with this comment:
AVENGER:
"Most of our drug-importing military cargo planes are busy in the
Middle East.
D'oh!"
Registered: Feb 2007
Location: This is hell. Well, have a gander at this "paranoia."
Posts: 679
-Article.-
Sloppy Tradecraft Exposes CIA Drug Plane

WORLD EXCLUSIVE
Oct 08, 2007
by Daniel Hopsicker
http://www.madcowprod.com/10092007.html
Seventeen months after an American-registered DC9 airliner was

busted with 5.5 tons of cocaine, a major international scandal is

brewing over a second drug trafficking incident in Mexico's Yucatan
involving an American-registered jet owned by a dummy front
company of the kind usually associated with the CIA.A weekend
visit to “Donna Blue Aircraft Inc” of Coconut Beach FL., the
company which FAA records show owned the Gulfstream II business
jet (N987SA) which crash-landed with 3.7 tons of cocaine aboard in
Mexico’s Yucatan two weeks ago, has revealed that the company’s
listed address is an empty office suite with a blank sign out front.
There was no sign of Donna Blue Aircraft, Inc., at the address listed
at the Florida Dept. of Corporations, 4811 Lyons Technology
Parkway #8 in Coconut Beach FL.
However, there were, oddly enough, a half-dozen unmarked police
cars parked directly in front of the empty suite.
Phone calls to Butters Development, the industrial park's leasing
agent, went unreturned.
Moreover the brief description of Donna Blue on its Internet page,
apparently designed to “flesh out the ghost a little,” is such a
clumsy half-hearted effort that it defeats the purpose of helping aid
the construction of a plausible “legend,” or cover, and ends up
doing more harm than good...
For example, the website features a quote from a satisfied Donna
Blue Aircraft customer. Unfortunately his name is “John Doe.” And
the listed phone number is right out of the movies: 415.555-5555.
Its known in the trade as "sloppy tradecraft."
"Its My Party and I'll Bust Who I Want To"

The biggest clue to date to the true identity of the individuals or
organization operating behind the dummy front of "Donna Blue
Aircraft" may lie in its initials, "DBA," for "doing business as."
It is the kind of cute nomenclature for which "the boys" are known
to be fond.
For the Bush Administration, which recently launched a PR offensive
announcing major gains in the multibillion-dollar anti-drug effort in
preparation for asking Congress for a $1 billion Plan Colombia-type
aid package to help Mexico fight drug traffickers, the controversy
could not have come at a worse time.
The billion dollars in proposed U.S. aid, Mexican newspapers
pointed out, will only be used to target drug traffickers with no
obvious ties to American intelligence.
Leading to this extraordinary skepticism is the fact that recent
investigations into downed drug planes have suffered, on both sides
of the U.S.-Mexican border, from a certain murkiness.
New Scientific Discovery Links Drug Planes to Quarks

Mexican authorities and the American DEA have apparently
concluded that Mankind’s knowledge of the ownership of large
commercial and business jets busted carrying multi-ton loads of
narcotics is governed, like the understanding of the movement of
subatomic quarks, by Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle.
The more influential the listed owner of the plane is, the more
uncertain the identification becomes. The whole business,
suggested a story which ran on the Associated Press, quickly moves

beyond the realm of human ken…

“How the U.S.-registered Gulfstream ended up in the hands of
suspected drug traffickers remains a mystery,” reported the
Associated Press.
How indeed? Let’s take a look.
When the company’s principals, Joao Luiz Malago and Eduardo Dias
Guimaraes, both Brazilian, forcefully denied that they still owned
the plane, claiming it had been sold several weeks earlier to two
American pilots in Florida, officials at the DEA (which sent a six-
man team to the Yucatan crash site) the FBI, and the FAA were all
conspicuous by their silence.
Since then, there has been a growing perception expressed in the
Mexican press that the owners of both of the American-registered
drug plane’s seem to enjoy an apparent immunity from prosecution.
Set a Straw Man Up, Set a Straw Man Down

“The proprietary company of the unit, Donna Blue Inc. Aircraft
(DBA), is another mystery and probably it is a ghost company,”
reported Mexico City’s La Reforma.
Indications point to the conclusion that their skepticism is justified.
Increasing suspicion even more was the suggestion, in a report of a
committee of the European Parliament, that in addition to having
been used in drug trafficking the Gulfstream II had flown CIA
rendition flights to Guantanamo.
Unnamed authorities quoted in Associated Press accounts dismissed
this report, saying there was no evidence the plane flew renditions,
but failed to address the fact that Guantanamo is highly restricted
airspace, and any plane landing there can be presumed to be
working for the U.S. Government.
What has raised the crash-landing of the Gulfstream II drug plane
with U.S. Government connections to the level of real outrage is its
extraordinary
similarity to the DC9 airliner caught a year and a half ago, after
which the planes’ registered owner suffered no ill consequences
from having his airplane caught with 5.5 tons of cocaine onboard.
There are “wonderful similarities,” Mexican newspaper Por Esto
reported drolly, “between the Gulfstream which crash-landed in the
tiny hamlet of Tixkokob and the DC9 busted in Ciudad del Carmen
which help explain why, despite the fact that almost 18 months has
passed, the American owner of the DC9 has not been charged with
any crime.”
Ghost Fleets of Ghost Planes owned by Ghost Companies

The reference is to information contained in a series of articles in
the MadCowMorningNews detailing connections between the DC9
and the national Republican Party, like its unpaid use flying current
Florida Republican Senator Mel Martinez around the state during his
last week blitz before his election to the Senate in 2004.
The DC9’s owner was identified in FAA documents as Royal Sons’
Inc., owned by Frederic Geffon of St. Petersburg.
Yet despite the fact that Geffon back-dated sales documents and
then had them faxed to the FAA several days after his DC9 was
already in the news for the big bust, no action has been taken

against Geffon, or any other owners of the plane.

Geffon claimed he had sold the DC9, several weeks before it was
caught, and identified the buyer as an “airplane broker” in California
who investigation revealed has no history of selling airplanes.
The circumstances of the subsequent “investigations” share many
similarities. The governments involved—Mexico, the United States,
Venezuela, and Colombia—all appear unable to agree on who
owned the planes when they were busted.
In both cases Mexican authorities were quick to arrest individuals
who authorities labeled crew members on the drug flights.
The Third Rail, The Big Taboo, & The Big Fix
But the plane’s ownership has been made to appear “murky,”
although the owners of the planes at the time they were caught are
clearly named in FAA documents. And both plane’s American
owners appear to be escaping Scot-free.
Could the confusion be deliberate?
An aviation executive in Venice thought so. "When it comes to
registering airplanes, it’s the Wild West out there," he explained.
“An airplane is a mobile, big ticket item. Yet there are no airport
police doing ramp checks, or checking N numbers at airports.”
“The FAA system for registering airplanes is little-changed from
when it was started back in the good ol boy days of the 1930’s.
Each plane has a paper folder, for example, stuffed with all
correspondence regarding airworthiness and ownership relating to
that plane.”
“Its an antiquated system which some feel is kept deliberately in
place to encourage a certain ambiguity when a plane is interdicted.
When a change of registration is mailed in, the FAA places a plane’s
folder in what they call “suspense.”
“That’s a tremendous inducement to anyone with a chance of
having a plane nabbed to keep floating sales in progress. The CIA,
for example, is very adept at keeping files on its planes “in
suspense.”
An airplane associated in some way with the U.S. Government, said
an aviation source with a smirk, would have definite advantages for
a drug smuggler.
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on...

The first incident—the DC9 “Cocaine One” saga studiously ignored
in the American press, save for an error-filled apologia in the
plane’s owners hometown St. Petersburg Times—dropped from
sight quickly with no apparent serious ramifications.
Two weeks ago in the Yucatan, events took a similar turn. And both
incidents now seem headed for similar outcomes.
Today only elements of the “wised-up” Mexican press are crying
foul.
After being owned for nearly a decade by ARI, Air Rutter
International, the Gulfstream apparently changed hands-- at least
two, and by one account, three--times in recent weeks.
However the MadCowMorningNews has learned new details that
throw suspicion on the claim that two American pilots in Fort
Lauderdale Florida could have paid $2 million cash, as described by

Donna Blue execs, for the Gulfstream II business jet...

It's a deadly game of musical chairs. What will happen when the
music stops?
-End of article.-
__________________
Thomas Jefferson
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do
nothing."
Edmund Burke
convicted."
10-10-2007 07:58 PM
liberranter I was just reading over the article that Cataclysm posted, which
Super Moderator focuses on what is practically my own backyard. It's truly
comical to watch the Border Stooges in action around here,
scurrying to and fro like ****roaches while doing not a damned
thing to justify the massive amount of taxpayer dollars wasted
on them. Whether illegal aliens or drugs, these guys can't find
either one of them unless they accidentally stumble on them.
The picture accompanying the article probably depicts a round-
up of illegals who were just unlucky enough to cross into a BP
agent's backyard.
Registered: Jun 2005 __________________

Location: Tucson, AZ "Whensoever the General Government assumes undelegated
Posts: 5865 powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force." -
Thomas Jefferson

Grigg

10-11-2007 01:14 PM
Darryl Avenger,
Senior Member You are not off base, the drug business is ran by our so called good
guys.
Registered: Jul 2003 look at www.narconews.com a person named Bill Conroy hunts
Location:
down the goverment jets that fly in cocaine.
Posts: 755
if anything it is the baby boom era getting old that is stopping the
drug use.
09-06-2008 04:07 AM
AVENGER quote:
Senior Member
Originally posted by Darryl
if anything it is the baby boom era getting old
that is stopping the drug use.
Registered: Feb 2007 Yup. The younger generation is more interested in brilliant habits
Location: This is hell. such as huffing paint fumes, cooking their tiny brains with meth,
Posts: 679 supporting the empire by drinking themselves into a stupor and
filling the pockets of the "upper" class by popping pills all day in
order to "cope" with the pointless and corrupt reality that is
American society today. You know--instead of actually doing
anything about it.
__________________
Thomas Jefferson
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do
nothing."
Edmund Burke
convicted."
09-06-2008 08:57 AM

photoman Here is a little information on the so called War on Drugs.

Senior Member These two video's could be the best 16 minutes you can
spend to get a handle on the real story!
Registered: Aug 2006
Location: Under your bed... PART 1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZ-T...feature=related
Posts: 875
PART 2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mdai...feature=related
Mena Arkansas was at one time the main drop point for the CIA's
contributions to the War on Drugs.
09-06-2008 11:22 AM

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COPWATCH.com Forum - YouTube is a powerful ally
COPWATCH.com Forum > NEWS SECTION > News: PROPAGANDA > YouTube is a
powerful ally
Author Thread
SJ01 YouTube is a powerful ally

Senior Member
If you've heard of the video site YouTube.com, then you'll know

basically what I'm talking about. If not, go to it and learn a bit.
YouTube hosts a lot of videos, including my own. Millions of people

pass through there everyday. Supposedly, over 100 million different
people view the site every day.
Now, if someone were to set up a kind of network on there for their

cause, that would become a powerful tool of both propaganda and
also in teaching and recruiting more people to undo the
brainwashing already in place by the police.
Location:
Posts: 126
The best part of all is, the cops and their supporters don't seem to
have realized this. I run a small network on YouTube of about 18

people, and while we do get scattered hostility from occasional

sources, for the most part we are getting very good responses to
videos like the Rodney King Beating and the like.
If we could put some CopWatch-type videos up on YouTube and

organize an active way to promote them, we might be able to do
some good in undoing the pro-cop brainwashing that has become
so common.
07-22-2006 06:48 PM
Mack That's a great idea.

Assistant Moderator
How much bandwidth are you using on a monthy basis?
__________________
"The citizen who stands by his legal rights in the face of lawless government
misconduct
upholds the law and renders a service not only to himself but the public
generally."
Justice Sanders, defending the right to forcibly resist false arrest, State v.
Registered: Jul 2003 Valentine, [<LINK] 935 P.2d 1294 (writing in dissent). WA Supreme Court, 1997.
Location:
Nothing I post constitutes legal advice. My opinions are not necessarily shared by
Posts: 5215
COPWATCH or by any other Moderators or participants.
COPWATCH.com POLICING THE POLICE

Resources for fighting police brutality and other forms of law-enforcement
misconduct.
FIGHT BACK with COPWATCH.com!
07-24-2006 07:13 AM
SJ01 quote:
Senior Member
Originally posted by Mack
That's a great idea.
How much bandwidth are you using on a monthy

basis?
I actually don't know. I'm sure I could get that kind of information
Registered: Jul 2006 from the site, but I'm too lazy.
Location:
Posts: 126 I currently have 22 videos (Some of my recent ones are just funny
little ******ed videos I posted, but in general they are serious),
and since I joined 4 months ago I've had 717 views on my channel,

and 13680 individual video views. I've also figured out a way to
advertise my work through other people by adding them to my
buddy list and then posting a bulletin, which shows up on my
buddys' profiles and links viewers to my vids.
You can even organize groups (I belong to two ones about cops,
one of which I own).
07-24-2006 12:29 PM
Rylan Have you seen this one?

Senior Member
Run From The ***s
Location:
Posts: 931
__________________
Are you a gleaming hypocrite? Do you lack intelligence, ambition, and respect for
yourself and others? Does the thought of intimidating, arresting, and possibly
killing people over traffic violations, drugs, prostitution, and gambling excite you?
Boost your self-esteem by becoming a certified tool and revenue generator for
the State!
The term "professional" is now devoid of any meaning. Thanks cops.
07-24-2006 12:54 PM
filmthecops Police Complaint Center

Junior Member
What about the Police Complaint Center? It's located at policeabuse.

Registered: Jul 2008 com or .tv, and it's growing quite rapidly lately.
Location:
Posts: 3 Here's a YouTube video of their latest endeavor: a live internet
show.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TV9MLg7oESw
I think this is a good network for a good cause.
08-25-2008 09:33 PM

photoman Re: Police Complaint Center

Senior Member
quote:
Location: Under your bed...
Originally posted by filmthecops
Posts: 875
What about the Police Complaint Center? It's
located at policeabuse.com or .tv, and it's
growing quite rapidly lately.
Here's a YouTube video of their latest endeavor: a
live internet show.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=TV9MLg7oESw
I think this is a good network for a good cause.
This is the same post you made to another thread word for word.
You would not be attempting to SPAM this website would you?
08-26-2008 12:40 AM
filmthecops Concerned?
Junior Member
Thanks for your concern. I just thought the post I made here fit
Registered: Jul 2008 better on another thread. It's the only two I've ever posted. So,
Location:
Posts: 3 sorry. Just thought I'd speak my mind about YouTube and cops...
Isn't that what we do here?
08-26-2008 03:25 PM


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COPWATCH.com Forum - Police "ambassador" (fittingly, a dog), dies after brief illness (WA)
COPWATCH.com Forum > NEWS SECTION > News: PROPAGANDA > Police
"ambassador" (fittingly, a dog), dies after brief illness (WA)
Author Thread
Mack Police "ambassador" (fittingly, a dog), dies after brief illness (WA)
Assistant Moderator
Last updated November 15, 2007 12:08 p.m. PT

Police dog dies after illness
By HECTOR CASTRO
P-I REPORTER
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local...olicedog16.html
Monte, a German shepherd working as a police dog for Redmond,

Registered: Jul 2003 died Wednesday after a brief illness.
Location:
Posts: 5215
Monte and his police handler, Officer Sam Hovenden, were credited
with assisting in the seizure of more than $570,000 in narcotics and
more than $85,000 in drug money since May 2001.
Monte was also an ambassador for the department, appearing at

several community events.
__________________
misconduct
generally."
Valentine, [<LINK] 935 P.2d 1294 (writing in dissent). WA Supreme Court, 1997.

misconduct.
11-17-2007 03:58 PM
Mack Isn't it interesting that police dogs are always described as

Assistant Moderator "ambassadors" for the cops?
What does that say about the cops?
It tells me that they are, on average, unlikeable, inarticulate bullies

incapable of garnering any positive response from the public
without the aid of a cute dog.
Apparently, there are very few actual cops who can fool the public
Location: into thinking that the average cop is OK.
Posts: 5215
__________________
misconduct
generally."

misconduct.
11-17-2007 05:02 PM

liberranter Re: Police "ambassador" (fittingly, a dog), dies after brief illness
Super Moderator (WA)
quote:
Monte and his police handler, Officer Sam

Hovenden, were credited with assisting in the
seizure of more than $570,000 in narcotics
and more than $85,000 in drug money since
May 2001.
Posts: 5865
How sad (but unsurprising) that this poor, abused poochpup's

life was wasted engaging in extra-constitutional theft. I'm
assuming that this was the entire focus of his short, abused life,
since we're not told that he did anything genuinely heroic
related to "protecting and serving," like saving a child from a
rapist or defending an old lady from a purse snatcher.
__________________
Thomas Jefferson

Grigg
11-17-2007 09:31 PM


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COPWATCH.com Forum - "National Police Week"
COPWATCH.com Forum > NEWS SECTION > News: PROPAGANDA > "National Police
Week"
Author Thread
Mack "National Police Week"

Assistant Moderator
"Police Week - Remembering those who made the ultimate

sacrifice"
http://policeweek.org/schedule.html
Schedule of Events 2007

Location:
Posts: 5215 Tuesday
May 8, 2007
(Confirmed)
Annual Blue Mass
The Blue Mass will be held at 12:10 PM at St. Patrick's Catholic
Church. For additional information please call (202) 347-2713.

St. Patrick's Catholic Church

10th & G Streets, NW
Washington, DC
Saturday
May 12, 2007
(Confirmed)
Police Unity Tour
Arrival Ceremony will be held at 2:00 p.m. at the Washington
Memorial. Begun in 1997, the Police Unity Tour has raised nearly
$900,000 for the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund.
Visit www.policeunitytour.com, call (973) 443-0030, or E-mail
unitytour1@aol.com for more information.
Sunday
May 13, 2007
(Confirmed)
19th Annual Candlelight Vigil
The Candlelight Vigil will be held at 8:00 p.m. at the 400 block of E
Street, NW. The event is sponsored by the National Law
Enforcement Officers Memorial. No tickets are required and
everyone is welcome. Due to parking limitations, it is strongly
advised that anyone attending the event take the Metro Red Line to
Judiciary Square. For additional information please call (202) 737-
3400.
21st Annual Concerns of Police Survivors Seminars
The National Concerns of Police Survivors' (COPS) will hold their

21st Annual Concerns of Police Survivors Seminars from 9:00 a.m.
to 4:30 p.m. on May 13 and May 14, at the Hilton Alexandria Mark
Center. Registration is for this event is mandatory.
Monday
May 14, 2007
(Confirmed)
Fifth Annual Honor Guard Competition
The competition will begin at 8:30 a.m. at John Marshall Plaza,
located on Pennsylvania Ave NW at 4th Street, NW. Awards will be
presented immediately following the competition. This event is
sponsored by the Grand Lodge Fraternal Order of Police.
Contact: Ken Roske

Fraternal Order of Police, National Memorial Committee
711 4th Street, NW
Washington, DC 20001
e-mail honorguard@policeweek.org
www.policeweekhonorguard.com

13th Annual Emerald Society & Pipe Band March and Service
Sponsored by the National Conference of Law Enforcement Emerald

Societies, Inc. Assemble at 4:30 p.m. at New Jersey Avenue & F
Street, NW. Step-off promptly at 6:00pm. Holiday Inn on Capitol
Hill, 415 New Jersey Avenue, NW, Washington, DC. 5:00 p.m.
staging area, 6:00 p.m. step off.
Contact: Don Gilmartin (732) 689-5267 or email
Tonality13@hotmail.com.
Tuesday
May 15, 2007
(Confirmed)
26th Annual National Peace Officers' Memorial Service
Sponsored by the Grand Lodge Fraternal Order of Police and the
Grand Lodge Fraternal Order of Police Auxiliary. The Memorial
Service will be held on the West Front of the United States Capitol
in Washington, D.C.
The Service begins at 12:00 noon and is expected to run

approximately 2 hours. Contact: Linda Hennie or Marcello Muzzatti
at the National Police Week Hotline (202) 547-1651.
The Wreath Laying Ceremony will be held immediately following the

Memorial Service at the National Law Enforcement Officers
Memorial, located in the 400 block of E Street, NW.
__________________
misconduct
generally."

misconduct.
05-22-2007 10:57 PM

Mack http://www.nationalcops.org/npw.htm
Assistant Moderator
The annual Candlelight at the National Law Enforcement Officers
Memorial is one activity that brings law enforcement survivors to
Washington, DC, during National Police Week each year.
May 15 has been National Peace Officers Memorial Day, and the
week containing May 15 has been National Police Week, since
President John F. Kennedy signed Public Law 87-726 on October 1,
Registered: Jul 2003 1962.
Location:
Posts: 5215 The National Peace Officers' Memorial Day Service on May 15 draws
thousands from all across the nation.
But it was not until May 15, 1982, that the first National Peace
Officers' Memorial Day Service was held. Washington, DC, activities
during National Police Week now include the annual Candlelight
Vigil at the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial and COPS'
National Police Survivors' Seminars as well as the National Peace
Officers' Memorial Day Service.
The National Police Survivors' Seminars offer peer-support and

professional counselors to assist survivors as they move along their
path of grief.
National Police Week 2007 Schedule of Events
Saturday, May 12: Early Arrival Day, COPS National Board Meeting.
Sunday, May 13: Official Arrival Day, National Police Week Check-
In, Candlelight Vigil at National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial.
Monday, May 14: First day of the National Police Survivors’

Conference, First day of “C.O.P.S. Kids/Teens” activities, “Troopers’
Tour of the Capital”.
Tuesday, May 15: National Peace Officers’ Memorial Service.
Wednesday, May 16: Second day of the National Police Survivors’

Conference, Second day of “C.O.P.S. Kids/Teens activities, Picnic in
the Park.
Thursday, May 17: Official Departure Day, COPS National Board
Meeting.
Public Law 87-726, signed by President John F. Kennedy in 1962,

was amended by the 103rd Congress as part of the Violent Crime
Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994. President Bill Clinton
signed Public Law 103-322 which directs that the flag of the United
States on all Government buildings be displayed at half-staff on
May 15, National Peace Officers' Memorial Day.
Click here for a Sample Proclamation that can be individualized for

your municipality to recognize Police Week.

__________________
misconduct
generally."

misconduct.
05-22-2007 11:00 PM
Mack http://www.nationalcops.org/Proclamation.htm
Assistant Moderator
In 1962, President John F. Kennedy signed Public Law 87-726
designating May 15 as Peace Officers' Memorial Day, and the week
in which May 15 falls as National Police Week. The law was
amended by the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of
1994, Public Law 103-322, signed by President Bill Clinton,
directing that the flag of the United States be displayed at half-staff
on all government buildings on May 15 each year. While the actual
Registered: Jul 2003 dates change from year to year, National Police Week is always the
Location: calendar week, beginning on Sunday, which includes May 15.
Posts: 5215
Sample Proclamation
Whereas, The Congress and President of the United States have
designated May 15 as Peace Officers' Memorial Day, and the week
in which May 15 falls as National Police week; and
Whereas, the members of the law enforcement agency of
(municipality) play an essential role in safeguarding the rights and
freedoms of (municipality); and
Whereas, it is important that all citizens know and understand the
duties, responsibilities, hazards, and sacrifices of their law
enforcement agency, and that members of our law enforcement
agency recognize their duty to serve the people by safeguarding life
and property, by protecting them against violence and disorder, and
by protecting the innocent against deception and the weak against
oppression; and
Whereas, the men and women of the law enforcement agency of
(municipality) unceasingly provide a vital public service;
Now, therefore, I, (title) of (municipality), call upon all citizens of
(municipality) and upon all patriotic, civic and educational
organizations to observe the week of May (date) - (date), (year), as
Police Week with appropriate ceremonies and observances in which
all of our people may join in commemorating law enforcement
officers, past and present, who, by their faithful and loyal devotion
to their responsibilities, have rendered a dedicated service to their

communities and, in so doing, have established for themselves an

enviable and enduring reputation for preserving the rights and
security of all citizens.
I further call upon all citizens of (municipality) to observe (day),
May (date), as Peace Officers' Memorial Day in honor of those law
enforcement officers who, through their courageous deeds, have
made the ultimate sacrifice in service to their community or have
become disabled in the performance of duty, and let us recognize
and pay respect to the survivors of our fallen heroes.
In witness thereof, I have hereunto set my hand and caused the
Seal of the (municipality) to be affixed.
COPS
P.O. Box 3199
3096 S. State Highway 5
Camdenton, MO 65020
Phone: 573-346-4911
Fax: 573-346-1414
cops@nationalcops.org
__________________
misconduct
generally."

misconduct.
05-22-2007 11:01 PM
CC Rider Here is the picture of the cop that was referanced in the article
GOT FREE SPEECH? above!
This guy must have stock in Krispy Kream!
I had no idea they made spandex cyclist shorts in sizes this big! I
Location: Behind You wonder if if he realizes just how sad he looks? He would last about
Posts: 1060 a hot twenty minutes around here - some guy would take off
running and this moron would not have a chance to catch them!
What happened to PT requirements for officers?
There is no way this guy could do one chin up or more than two
push-ups.
__________________
It seems Americans now need permission to speak out on

political issues and petition the government. I'd suggest a

constitutional amendment protecting those rights, but I
thought we already had one.
Any statement I make is my opinion and covered by the US

Constitutions Right To Free Speech ~ ~
“As the years pass, the power of government becomes more and
more pervasive. It is a power to suffocate both people and causes.
Those in power, whatever their politics, want only to perpetuate it.
Now that the fences of the law and the tradition that protected the
press are broken down, the people are the victims. The First
Amendment, as I read it, was designed precisely to prevent that
tragedy.”
Justice William O. Douglas
05-23-2007 09:25 AM
CC Rider sorry for the double post - it would not upload the picture... I will
GOT FREE SPEECH? attempt one more time - This guy is big but I really tried to cut the
size of the file. He must be so big even Photoshop will not reduce
the image to a size that can be loaded here
Registered: Mar 2007 __________________

Location: Behind You
Posts: 1060

tragedy.”
Last edited by CC Rider on 05-23-2007 at 09:48 AM
05-23-2007 09:37 AM

CC Rider quote:
GOT FREE SPEECH?
Originally posted by CC Rider
sorry for the double post - it would not upload the
picture... I will attempt one more time - This guy
Registered: Mar 2007 is big but I really tried to cut the size of the file.
Location: Behind You He must be so big even Photoshop will not reduce
Posts: 1060 the image to a size that can be loaded here
__________________

tragedy.”
05-23-2007 09:55 AM
Mack Re: "National Police Week"

Assistant Moderator
quote:

Tuesday
May 8, 2007
(Confirmed)
Annual Blue Mass
Location:
Posts: 5215
Just a shade or two less evil than the Black Mass. I wonder if they
sacrifice any animals (or babies)? I'm sure they must burn Mumia in
effigy.
__________________
misconduct

generally."

misconduct.
05-23-2007 03:04 PM
liberranter "Fuzz Follies"

Super Moderator
Becky Akers, a regular contributor to LRC, contributes one of

her usual gems, this time on the annual orgy of drunken porky
mayhem in DC:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/akers/akers65.html
Fuzz Follies
by Becky Akers
Seems DC has survived another "National Police Week." I’m
Posts: 5865 trying to decide whether that’s good or bad.
From Tuesday, May 8, through Wednesday, May 16, "tens of

thousands" of cops from around the country partied in the
nation’s capitol. Naturally, they drank. A lot. But that didn’t stop
them from climbing behind the wheel to cruise dark streets with
sirens blaring. They gunned motorcycles and skirled bagpipes
till 3 AM, yelled, fought, and generally broke laws they force the
rest of us to follow. Their excuse for this annual rioting is that
by annoying, inconveniencing, and even terrifying DC’s civilians,
they commemorate officers killed in the line of duty. Well, why
not? Those cops likely annoyed, inconvenienced and terrified
folks while they were alive.
Alas, after several sleepless nights, some citizens ran short of

sympathy for the grieving survivors. They naïvely complained to
the District’s police, who responded by joining the fun. One
canny taxpayer finally videotaped the lawlessness for youtube.
com. This embarrassed DC’s police chief into taking stern
measures: she posted fliers asking the drunks to play nice. No
doubt that had ’em trembling in their jackboots.
National Police Week has plagued us since 1962, when a "Joint

Resolution... authorize[d] the President to proclaim May 15 of
each year as Peace Officers Memorial Day and the calendar

week of each year during which such May 15 occurs as Police

Week." We already pay these petty tyrants and bullies, but
Leviathan wants us to kiss their butts, too:
"Whereas the police officers of America have worked devotedly

and selflessly in behalf of the people of this Nation, regardless
of the peril or hazard to themselves..."
Oh, right, and all those benefits, overtime pay, early retirement
with lifelong pension, meals extorted from restaurateurs, and
drugs swiped from the evidence lab have nothing to do with it.
"... Whereas these officers have safeguarded the lives and

property of their fellow Americans..."
Poppycock. By law, cops don’t have to "safeguard" anything.

Attorney and author Richard Stevens emphasizes, "[Cops] don’t
even have to come when you call. In most states the
government and police owe no legal duty to protect individual
citizens from criminal attack. The District of Columbia’s highest
court spelled out plainly the ‘fundamental principle that a
government and its agents are under no general duty to provide
public services, such as police protection, to any particular
individual citizen.’"
But most Americans blindly believe that cops protect us from

criminals. In reality, cops protect the State from us. That’s been
their purpose since the first police departments were organized
in the early nineteenth century. Prior to that, kings relied on
their armies to fight their enemies, foreign or domestic; witness
the Redcoats patrolling colonial Boston. Then in 1812, George
III’s Chief Secretary for Ireland created the "Peace Preservation
Police" to subdue Irish peasants upset at the British
government’s stranglehold. Nor has that purpose shifted over
the centuries. Cops still keep muttering serfs from rising against
Their Rulers:
"...Whereas by the enforcement of our laws, these same officers

have given our country internal freedom from fear of the
violence and civil disorder that is presently affecting other
nations..."
Yeah, especially when they’re liquored up.
"...Whereas these men and women by their patriotic service..."
I don’t know about you, but subjugating one’s fellow citizens

isn’t exactly my definition of "patriotic service."
"...and their dedicated efforts have earned the gratitude of the

Republic..."
Or at least of its leaders.
And so cops annually invade DC. They raise many a bottle of

Bud to those who "paid the ultimate sacrifice" during the

preceding year – all 160 of them. That small number is the
nation’s annual average of cops who die in the line of duty. Has
been for years. About half are shot; the rest might arguably be
excluded from this figure because they perish in car crashes.
We can only envy such low fatalities since cops kill many times
that number of civilians each year. And "justifiably," too:
though it’s "murder" when a citizen kills a cop, it’s "justifiable
homicide" when they kill us. A report from the US Department
of Justice contains this stunner: "the use of deadly force against
a police officer is almost never justified, while the use of deadly
force by police often is... [K]illings by police are referred to as
‘justifiable homicides,’ and the persons that police kill are
referred to as ‘felons.’" What handy logic! Cops kill felons who
are felons because cops killed them. "Police justifiably kill on
average nearly 400 felons each year."
That estimate is low. It’s also unreliable. Despite a 1994 law

ordering cops to report all shootings, precincts "voluntarily"
report only "justified" killings to the FBI. A neat trick, but you
have to work for Leviathan to get away with it: when we
murder, it’s reported. And "felons" are merely the beginning of
the casualties. What about the innocent bystanders these
reckless drivers and poor marksmen slaughter? Or their
murderous "mistakes," like 92-year-old Kathryn Johnston of
Atlanta or bridegroom Sean Bell of New York City? Dead
civilians might as well be roadkill. Their deaths literally don’t
count.
While cops drown their sorrows over their fallen fellows, let
decent folk honor the fallen felons. It’s easy enough: just
understand who the real criminals are.
May 25, 2007
Becky Akers writes primarily about the American Revolution.
Copyright © 2007 LewRockwell.com
__________________
Thomas Jefferson

Grigg


05-25-2007 12:48 PM

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COPWATCH.com Forum - Over-the-top story about something called "National Law Enforcement Day"
COPWATCH.com Forum > NEWS SECTION > News: PROPAGANDA > Over-the-top
story about something called "National Law Enforcement Day"
Author Thread
Mack Over-the-top story about something called "National Law Enforcement

Assistant Moderator Day"
Published: May 17, 2007 03:46 pm

Police officers remember compatriots lost in duty
By Matthew Hill
Staff Writer
http://www.fayettetribune.com/local..._137154634.html
Registered: Jul 2003 FAYETTEVILLE — Gratitude’s eternal sunshine was pierced only by
Location: the gentle breezes of bittersweet remembrance and the gun shots
Posts: 5215
of Fayette County sheriff’s deputies who sent several rounds of
bullets heavenward to kiss the faces of their faithfully
departed comrades.
In front of them sat 10 empty black chairs, and over the heart of

each police officer was a black-striped badge — vivid and

lamentable reminders of the precious price to be paid for a
safe and free society.
Police officers from throughout Fayette County, and from three

surrounding counties, gathered on the courthouse lawn Tuesday for
the local commemoration of National Law Enforcement Day. Fayette
County Circuit Judge John Hatcher, Tuesday’s keynote speaker,
took special note of the officers’ badges and their obligatory black
bands.
“That black band represents a virtual scar across the very heart
and soul of America’s police officers as they remember the
importance of life, the value of life, the uncertainty of life, and the
brevity of life,” Hatcher proclaimed, his amplified words
reverberating against nearby buildings.
“As in years past, we are small in number today, but we are

certainly large in our purpose. (Many) officers no doubt attended
police memorial ceremonies last year across this great land,
knowing not that they themselves would be memorialized this very
day. For them we grieve ...”
On a local level, one such individual referenced Tuesday was

Charles “Chuck” Smith, a Beckley undercover police officer killed in
the line of duty last August.
Hatcher spoke of the need for officers to have sound judgment,

compassionate hearts, integrity and a true and sincere desire to
serve the public. Nearly 700 law enforcement officers were killed
over the last 12 years while performing their jobs. Of those, he
added, more than 50 were murdered with their own gun.
“Let us never forget that we owe these brave men and women a
special thanks and a special measure of gratitude and respect,”
Hatcher noted.
He also made mention of the nearly 4,000 members of the

American military killed in action in the Iraqi theater, part of the
global war on terrorism.
“Let us also remember all ... who yet stand in harm’s way, with
clearly no end in sight. May they soon be safely returned to their
homes and to their loved ones.”
Fayetteville Mayor Jim Akers provided a brief history of law

enforcement and how man’s frequent inhumanity to man led human
beings to formulate laws and rules for a just society. With that
development came the advent of groups of people willing to enforce
those precepts.
“However, despite all the advances in technology, we have yet to

prevent the most basic threat (death). Every day, brave men and
women of law enforcement are killed in the performance of

their noble duty. In over two centuries in America, this grim

fact has not changed,” Akers declared.
“Those who choose to live outside society’s ethical and legal

boundaries represent a threat not only to those engaged in
protecting and enforcing the law, but to society as a whole. Without
law ... society as we know it would, without exaggeration, cease to
exist.”
Akers defined the men and women in uniform as literal

heroes. It is only when one of them is taken from us, he said, that
we appreciate their sacrifice. “It is only then that we realize the risk
that they have taken on our behalf. Only then that we consider
the price of our freedom.”
To augment Akers’ last remark, flags were lowered to half-staff and

Fayette County Sheriff’s Detective Sgt. James Sizemore read the
names of all 145 West Virginia police officers killed in the
performance of their duties since June 20, 1863. According to
his list, the state lost its first police officer in Wheeling in 1868.
A Fayette County sheriff was murdered in 1904. One of the names

on the list touched Steve Pilato, Gov. Joe Manchin’s regional
representative, in a special way — Fayette County Sheriff’s Deputy
Roger Treadway, killed Oct. 8, 1975. “I think of Roger today on a
personal level,” Pilato lamented, of his fellow high-school graduate.
Tuesday’s ceremony opened with a rendition by Monte Price of

“Amazing Grace” on an acoustic guitar.
__________________
misconduct
generally."

misconduct.
05-17-2007 08:39 PM

Rylan 2.0
Senior Member
Registered: Dec 2006

__________________
Location:
Posts: 2330 http://www.ronpaul2008.com
05-17-2007 08:45 PM
liberranter Yet another example, as if we needed any more, of what a

Super Moderator whore-bitch the MSM is, owned lock, stock, and barrel by the
State.
__________________
Thomas Jefferson

Location: Tucson, AZ the pitiless force of a jackhammer: It is the guilty, collusive
Posts: 5865 silence of good police officers that makes possible the ever-
Grigg
05-17-2007 09:19 PM
GC Marciano Re: Over-the-top story about something called "National Law

Copwatcher Extraordinaire Enforcement Day"
quote:

Every day, brave men and women of law
enforcement are killed in the performance of
their noble duty. In over two centuries in
America, this grim fact has not changed,”
Registered: Jul 2003 Akers declared.
Posts: 9967
An outright, intentional lie designed to garner undeserved

sympathy.
quote:

“It is only then that we realize the risk that
they have taken on our behalf. Only then that
we consider the price of our freedom.”
So now we owe our nation's freedom to the same police officers

that routinely violate our rights and deny us of our liberties?
quote:

Sgt. James Sizemore read the names of all 145
West Virginia police officers killed in the
performance of their duties since June 20,
1863.
This works out to an average of less than one officer per year
that hs died "in the line of duty". I am certain the 145 number
includes every heart attack, accidental death, suicide, DUI
related death, etc... Sounds like a pretty safe job if you ask me.
__________________
Court
agents.
05-17-2007 10:43 PM

Mack Re: Over-the-top story about something called "National Law

Assistant Moderator Enforcement Day"
quote:

By Matthew Hill
sent several rounds of bullets heavenward to kiss
the faces of their faithfully departed comrades.
Location: — vivid and lamentable reminders of the precious
Posts: 5215 price to be paid .
This is so far beyond normal newspaper writing that it almost

seems intended as parody. I wonder if the reporter is trying to
make fun of them, or if he's really sincere?
__________________
misconduct
generally."

misconduct.
05-18-2007 02:31 AM
liberranter Re: Re: Over-the-top story about something called "National Law
Super Moderator Enforcement Day"
quote:
This is so far beyond normal newspaper

writing that it almost seems intended as
parody. I wonder if the reporter is trying to
make fun of them, or if he's really sincere?
Posts: 5865

I think I'll ask him. I won't hold my breath waiting for a reply,
though.
__________________
Thomas Jefferson

Grigg
05-18-2007 11:22 AM

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COPWATCH.com Forum - Auto-related death of cop temporally correlates with tornado- Magically he's a "hero"
COPWATCH.com Forum > NEWS SECTION > News: PROPAGANDA > Auto-related death of cop
temporally correlates with tornado- Magically he's a "hero"
Author Thread
Mack Auto-related death of cop temporally correlates with tornado- Magically he's a "hero"
Assistant Moderator
Police Officer Dies of Tornado Injuries

Email this Story
May 8, 5:09 PM (ET)
By ROXANA HEGEMAN and STEVE BRISENDINE
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070508/D8P0EEI80.html
GREENSBURG, Kan. (AP) - A police officer who was critically injured in the tornado
Registered: Jul 2003 that tore apart Greensburg was removed from life support early Tuesday, a few hours
Location:
Posts: 5215
after his daughter was married at his bedside.
Robert Tim Buckman, a 46-year-old officer from nearby Macksville, suffered a head
injury in the storm Friday that also killed nine people in Greensburg and another
person nearby, officials said. He died early Tuesday at a Wichita hospital, his son
Derick Buckman told The Associated Press.
"He died being a hero," Derick Buckman said. "He was sworn to protect people,
and that's what he was doing the night he got picked up by a tornado."
During his final hours, Robert Buckman symbolically gave away his 18-year-old
daughter in a marriage ceremony at his bedside, his son said. The family's hometown
preacher officiated at the ceremony for Kylee Buckman and her boyfriend, Josh
Mondello, 22, Derick's best friend.
"He was there with his daughter to give her away," said Derick Buckman, a 25-year-

old firefighter.
Buckman's son-in-law Seth Cole, who is in the Army and had been scheduled to
deploy to Iraq on Tuesday, said he requested leave to be with his wife, their three
children and her family on Monday, but his request was denied by commanders at
Fort Stewart, Ga. As he was preparing to leave later Tuesday, his battalion
commander informed him he would be allowed a delay to attend the funeral.
"The battalion commander came over and sat down with me and said, 'Where do you
need to be?'" Cole told the Associated Press in a phone interview. "I said, 'I need to
be home with my wife's family.' And he said, 'OK, you're going.'"
Cole said he didn't know how much time he'll have before he has to deploy to Iraq.
He said he his family was close to his father-in-law.
"He was a really awesome guy," Cole said. "The best thing I remember about him
was going fishing and going hunting with him - at least 10 to 12 times a year if we
had the chance."
Search and rescue operations continued Tuesday in Greensburg, where emergency

responders have struggled to determined if any of its 1,600 residents are missing
because so many are staying with friends or relatives rather than in shelters.
President Bush was to tour the damage on Wednesday.
The 1.7-mile-wide Category F-5 enhanced tornado, with wind estimated at 205 mph,
destroyed about 95 percent of this farming town on Friday.
The death toll could have been much worse, but for a 20-minute warning - a rarely
issued "tornado emergency" alert - that gave people time to take shelter in
basements and storm cellars.
"When you look around at the devastation here, it is amazing that there aren't more
deaths," said Sharon Watson, a spokeswoman for the Kansas Division of Emergency
Management. "You really can't look in any direction without seeing destruction,
without seeing houses that are demolished, piles of rubble."
The last day anyone was found alive in the wreckage of Greensburg was early
Saturday, when two elderly women were pulled from the wreckage of a Mennonite
church.
Five trailers to house displaced families have arrived, and 20 more are on the way,
said FEMA Director R. David Paulison, who toured the town by bus on Monday.
Gov. Kathleen Sebelius said the government's response to the disaster was limited by
ongoing National Guard deployments to the Middle East.
"I don't think there is any question if you are missing trucks, Humvees and
helicopters that the response is going to be slower," Sebelius said. "The real victims
here will be the residents of Greensburg, because the recovery will be at a slower
pace."
White House spokesman Tony Snow rejected the criticism, saying the National Guard
had equipment positioned around the country to respond to disasters when requested
by states.
Buckman was critically injured as he drove near Greensburg. Other victims

were identified as Greensburg residents Claude Hopkins, 79; Larry Hoskins, 51; David
Lyon, 48; Colleen Panzer, 77; Ron Rediger, 57; Evelyn Kelly; 75; Sarah Thackett, 71,
and Beverly Volz, 52; and Richard J. Fry, 62, of Albuquerque, N.M. The storm system
killed a 12th person elsewhere in Kansas.
The storm system lingered over the central Plains in the week and was being blamed
Tuesday for flooding across the states. The National Weather Service issued flash
flooding warnings for 10 Oklahoma counties and several rivers were above flood

stage. Thunderstorms are expected to continue until about Thursday.
__________________
"The citizen who stands by his legal rights in the face of lawless government misconduct
upholds the law and renders a service not only to himself but the public generally."
Justice Sanders, defending the right to forcibly resist false arrest, State v. Valentine, [<LINK] 935
P.2d 1294 (writing in dissent). WA Supreme Court, 1997.
Nothing I post constitutes legal advice. My opinions are not necessarily shared by COPWATCH or by
any other Moderators or participants.

Resources for fighting police brutality and other forms of law-enforcement misconduct.
05-11-2007 12:49 AM
Rylan 2.0 And this comes right after one of his "brothers" got caught looting following the same
Senior Member tornado.
Registered: Dec 2006 Soldiers, Officer Accused Of Looting In Tornado-Ravaged Town

Location:
Posts: 2330
05-11-2007 05:19 PM
liberranter Re: Auto-related death of cop temporally correlates with tornado- Magically he's a "h
Super Moderator
quote:
"He died being a hero," Derick Buckman said. "He was sworn
to protect people, and that's what he was doing the night he
got picked up by a tornado."

Posts: 5865 Really? How so? Let's see some specifics of what this guy was doing at the time of
his death that would make him eligible for the "hero" label. I know I'm not the
only one who has noticed how the MSM consistently and reflexively labels these
clowns as "heroes", but never bother to enlighten us as to how they qualify as
such. For all we know (and for all the MSM is telling us), Buckman could have
been sitting in his cruiser wolfing down Dunkins and masturbating over kiddie
porn when Mother Nature sent a piece of flying debris to remove him from the
gene pool.
__________________
"Whensoever the General Government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are
unauthoritative, void, and of no force." - Thomas Jefferson
"And this brings us to a point that has to be driven home with the pitiless force of
a jackhammer: It is the guilty, collusive silence of good police officers that makes
possible the ever-accumulating atrocities of the 'bad' ones." - William Norman
Grigg
"If a nation values anything more than freedom, it will lose its freedom; and the
irony of it is that if it is comfort or money that it values more, it will lose that too.

05-11-2007 06:02 PM
Maxima What a bunch of crap. I'm going to go through all the "in-the-line-of-duty" deaths and
Moderator find out what percenatege are from people actually trying to kill them. I found a site
that lists all of them and like the last 10 were cops killing other cops or cops getting
into accidents.
__________________
"THE CLAIM AND EXERCISE OF A CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT CANNOT BE CONVERTED INTO A CRIME." -
Miller v U.S., 230 F 2d 486. 489.
“I apprehend no danger to our country from a foreign foe... Our destruction, should it come at all, will
be from another quarter. From the inattention of the people to the concerns of their government, from
their carelessness and negligence, I must confess that I do apprehend some danger. I fear that they
may place too implicit a confidence in their public servants, and fail properly to scrutinize their
conduct; that in this way they may be made the dupes of designing men, and become the instruments
Registered: Mar 2007 of their own undoing. Make them intelligent, and they will be vigilant; give them the means of
Location: St. Louis, MO detecting the wrong, and they will apply the remedy.” — Daniel Webster, June 1, 1837
Posts: 360
05-11-2007 08:59 PM
GC Marciano It's been a few years so I can't seem to find the original source of this
Copwatcher Extraordinaire information, but...
http://www.totse.com/en/politics/po...deat191413.html
quote:
2004 "line of duty" deaths:
* Aircraft accident: 3
Location: Chicago, Illinois 1 died while on vacation, 1 died in an on-duty crash due to
Posts: 9967
pilot error, 1 was a pilot who crashed his own plane during a
stunt maneuver gone awry.
* Automobile accident: 35
This includes 9 incidents in which the officer was legally

intoxicated, 17 while enroute to or from the work place and 10
while on vacation or other paid leave.
* Bomb: 2
1 died during a training exercise gone awry, 1 died in an

ambush explosion.
* Drowned: 3
2 were the result of scuba diving accidents, one was the result
of a boating accident involving the officers use of alcohol. 2
civillians also died in this boating accident.
* Electrocuted: 1
This officer was working on the electrical system in his own

home.

* Explosion: 1
This single death was the result of a natural gas leak at his
residence, the officers wife also died in this incident. It is
reported that the officer had improperly installed a water
heater the day before the explosion.
* Fall: 1
This officer fell from a scaffolding unit while working his part
time construction job. His BAC was 0.09 at the time of death.
* Gunfire: 53
Of these gunfire deaths, 5 were the result of bar room or other

off-duty brawls, 6 were related to domestic disputes in their
own home, 3 were mistaken identity by their fellow officers.
* Gunfire (Accidental): 4
3 of these accidental gunfire deaths were the result of self

inflicted gushot wounds, 1 was a hunting accident.
* Heart attack: 11
...Hardly a heroic way to go out.
* Motorcycle accident: 7
4 were killed in on-duty freeway traffic accidents, the

remaining 3 are attributed to drag racing accidents, 2 of which
involved alcohol use by the officer involved.
* Stabbed: 1
This single stabbing death was stabbed and killed by a

convicted killer who had escaped from the Arizona Dept. of
Corrections. The suspect remains at large.
* Struck by vehicle: 7
5 of these officers died while exiting their vehicle during

routine traffic stops, 2 were run down by their own vehicles
after neglecting to properly engage the vehicle in Park.
* Vehicular assault: 18
4 of these vehicular assaults were at the hand of their spouse

during domestic disputes, 1 was at the hand of his father, 9
are labelled vehicular homicide because the driver was legally
intoxicated at the time of the var vs officer accident. the
remaining 4 were at the hand of suspected or wanted
criminals.
* Weather/Natural disaster: 1
Dripping in heroism... One Florida hurricane faces capital

murder charges.
* Vehicle pursuit: 6
3 were attributed to vehicle malfunction, 3 were attributed to

unsafe driving conditions.

__________________
"The purpose and the principal effect of posting information about bad cops on the Internet is to
inform the public for its own safety, not to humiliate the officer. Even if the collateral effect of the
Internet posting is to shame the officer, this effect is the result of the Officer's crimes. We agree
with the state that the right to be free from the shame, stigma and embarrassment resulting from
crimes committed by Sworn Officers of the Law is not the kind of fundamental right contemplated
by our constitution." - Illinois Supreme Court
All statements and opinions expressed are my personal opinions and are not to be viewed as fact.
I am not a speaking agent for Copwatch and have no authority to bind Copwatch or to act on its
behalf. My opinions, ideas, theories and beliefs are my own and are not necessarily supported,
condoned (or often even appreciated) by Copwatch, it's subsidiaries or agents.
05-13-2007 05:51 AM
Maxima quote:
Moderator
It's been a few years so I can't seem to find the original source of
this information, but...
Thank you for that. Who wants to go post this on officer.com?

__________________
"THE CLAIM AND EXERCISE OF A CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT CANNOT BE CONVERTED INTO A CRIME." -
Posts: 360
Miller v U.S., 230 F 2d 486. 489.
“I apprehend no danger to our country from a foreign foe... Our destruction, should it come at all, will
be from another quarter. From the inattention of the people to the concerns of their government, from
their carelessness and negligence, I must confess that I do apprehend some danger. I fear that they
may place too implicit a confidence in their public servants, and fail properly to scrutinize their
conduct; that in this way they may be made the dupes of designing men, and become the instruments
of their own undoing. Make them intelligent, and they will be vigilant; give them the means of
detecting the wrong, and they will apply the remedy.” — Daniel Webster, June 1, 1837
05-13-2007 06:21 AM
Liongait Re: Re: Auto-related death of cop temporally correlates with tornado- Magically he's a "h
Unregistered / Not Logged In/
Probably a Cop
quote:
Originally posted by liberranter

Really? How so? Let's see some specifics of what this guy was
doing at the time of his death that would make him eligible for the
"hero" label. I know I'm not the only one who has noticed how the
MSM consistently and reflexively labels these clowns as "heroes",
but never bother to enlighten us as to how they qualify as such.
For all we know (and for all the MSM is telling us), Buckman could
Registered: Nov 2006 have been sitting in his cruiser wolfing down Dunkins and
Location: Victoria, Canada masturbating over kiddie porn when Mother Nature sent a piece of
Posts: 118
flying debris to remove him from the gene pool.

(Good Point)
Any police officer could die over any 'no-good' Darwin of a reason, sure, but only to be
labeled a hero, amongst 'le media', isn't that the main reason, most sign-up; to be- in
the 1st place?
'LE Fame and LE Glory'
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's been a few years so I can't seem to find the original source of
this information, but...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you for that. Who wants to go post this on officer.com?
(Good idea)
I would but, as much as I would like 2... But why give them a conscience to being
'more careful' with themselves? Time is a factor, inserting it in the 'appropriate place'
is another factpr, (for max laughters' sake) that could be time consuming.. If it means
as much 2 me as it would to you, I would... though *Lazy, and hungry atm
05-15-2007 12:47 AM

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COPWATCH.com Forum - "Cops on Doughnut Shops" - Craven attempt to garner positive PR
COPWATCH.com Forum > NEWS SECTION > News: PROPAGANDA > "Cops on
Doughnut Shops" - Craven attempt to garner positive PR
Author Thread
Mack "Cops on Doughnut Shops" - Craven attempt to garner positive PR

Assistant Moderator
http://www.nwsource.com/ae/scr/edb_...vt=250151&s=nws
Cops on Doughnut Shops Benefiting Special Olympics
DESCRIPTION
Law enforcement officers across the country will eat, sleep and play
on the roofs of Krispy Kreme stores May 4-6 while they collect
Registered: Jul 2003 donations from customers for Special Olympics; customers who
Location: donate money will receive sweet treats, ranging from a free dozen
Posts: 5215
Original Glazed doughnuts to a complimentary Krispy Kreme
doughnut party for those donating $1,000 or more
SCHEDULE

Krispy Kreme Doughnuts (North Seattle)

12505 Aurora Ave. N.
Seattle, WA 98133
Maps & directions
Friday, May 4
Add to my calendar
Saturday, May 5
Add to my calendar
Sunday, May 6
Add to my calendar
Krispy Kreme Doughnuts (South Seattle)

1900 1st Ave. S.
Seattle, WA 98134
Maps & directions
Friday, May 4
Add to my calendar
Saturday, May 5
Add to my calendar
Sunday, May 6
Add to my calendar
__________________
misconduct
generally."

misconduct.
05-04-2007 09:08 PM

liberranter Oh, Jeez, where to start with this....

Super Moderator
__________________
Thomas Jefferson

Grigg
05-04-2007 09:23 PM
Rylan 2.0 At least there's a consistency to the overall theme:

Senior Member
Special Olympics - mentally challenged - developmentally disabled -
Registered: Dec 2006 cops - doughnuts
Location:
05-04-2007 10:06 PM
Crunchy http://sanantoniolightning.com/donutland.jpg
Member
Location: Republic of Maryland
Posts: 44
05-05-2007 01:26 AM

GC Marciano The above graphic (for those leary of clicking links):

Attachment: donutland.jpg
__________________
Court
agents.
05-05-2007 02:10 AM
Rylan 2.0 "Results 1 - 10 of about 1,180,000 for police doughnuts"

Senior Member
Location:
Posts: 2330
05-05-2007 03:07 AM

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COPWATCH.com Forum - Cop tickets himself in bizarre publicity stunt
COPWATCH.com Forum > NEWS SECTION > News: PROPAGANDA > Cop tickets
himself in bizarre publicity stunt
Author Thread
GC Marciano Police Chief tickets self, pleads guilty and pays $235 fine:
Police chief in Wisconsin tickets himself $235
http://www.abclocal.go.com/ktrk/sto...arre&id=5004563
(2/05/07 - KEWASKUM, WI) - Police Chief Richard Knoebel says

he wasn't about to take the easy way out when he accidentally
drove past a stopped school bus with its emergency lights
Registered: Jul 2003 flashing.
Posts: 9967
For violating traffic laws, Knoebel wrote himself a ticket for
$235, docked himself four points on his driving record and paid
the fine the next day.
It happened in September but didn't make news until after the

fine appeared in court records and was reported by a West Bend

newspaper.
Knoebel says he doesn't mind getting the belated attention, if it

serves to raise awareness.
"If it brings notice to people that they should be stopping for

school buses, I don't mind the notoriety," he said.
He said he was on patrol on four-lane U.S. 45 when he was

distracted by a stopped dump truck. He saw a car coming from
behind and thought it might hit the truck, so he moved to pass
the truck before he saw the stopped school bus in the far lane.
He said he didn't realize he had passed the bus until it was too
late.
__________________
Court
agents.
02-06-2007 02:42 AM
Mack Cop tickets himself in bizarre publicity stunt

Assistant Moderator
Wednesday, February 21, 2007

Cop who ticketed self reaps praise
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/natio...ting_Chief.html
KEWASKUM, Wis. -- A police chief who ticketed himself for a traffic

violation says that he has received congratulatory e-mails from all
Registered: Jul 2003 over the globe and that he has even turned down money to cover
Location:
Posts: 5215
the fine.
Chief Dick Knoebel drove past a stopped school bus with its lights
flashing in September, then wrote himself a ticket for $235 and
docked himself four points on his driving record. The story surfaced

after it showed up in court records and media reports.
"Police officers do good things everyday, and that doesn't get

reported," said Knoebel, who has been chief for 20 years in this
town northwest of Milwaukee. "All you hear about in the news is
when a police officer is in trouble."
Knoebel said he got more than 150 e-mails from such places as
Thailand, New Zealand and Russia. Two people sent him $15.
"I tried to answer every e-mail," the chief said. "If they took the
time to e-mail me, I at least thank them for their comments."
__________________
misconduct
generally."

misconduct.
02-22-2007 09:06 PM
Rylan 2.0 Re: Cop tickets himself in bizarre publicity stunt

Senior Member
quote:
Location:
Posts: 2330
"Police officers do good things everyday, and that
doesn't get reported," said Knoebel, who has
been chief for 20 years in this town northwest of
Milwaukee. "All you hear about in the news is
when a police officer is in trouble."
Absolute lie. I come across at least as many good stories as I do

bad ones in my searches. Regardless, very rarely do I see reason to
give the cops in the good stories praise, seeing as it's almost
always a matter of them doing what their paid to do.
__________________
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02-22-2007 09:26 PM

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COPWATCH.com Forum - Cops cannibalize old man's courage to gain positive publicity
COPWATCH.com Forum > NEWS SECTION > News: PROPAGANDA > Cops cannibalize
old man's courage to gain positive publicity
Author Thread
Mack Cops cannibalize old man's courage to gain positive publicity

Assistant Moderator
Tuesday, February 6, 2007

New cane for man who fought off attacker
By Sara Jean Green
THOMAS JAMES HURST / THE SEATTLE TIMES
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ht...bnewcane06.html
Gus Jones, 82, of Seattle, used his cane to fight off a man who
Registered: Jul 2003 police say tried to set three people on fire.
Location:
Posts: 5215
The Seattle police officers called to a downtown intersection last
week after a mentally ill man allegedly doused three people with
lighter fluid were so impressed with the actions of Gus Jones that
they've asked their guild leaders to replace Jones' aluminum cane,
which was bent as the 82-year-old fended off his attacker.
http://www.copwatch.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18417 (1 of 5)7/12/2010 12:00:06 AM

Rich O'Neill, president of the Seattle Police Officers' Guild, said the
guild board recently voted to replace the expandable cane and will
have it inscribed with Jones' name. O'Neill said guild leaders hope
to give Jones the cane, which is like the one that was damaged, and
other police souvenirs on Monday.
It'll likely cost less than $80 to buy the cane and have it inscribed,
he said.
"Maybe if he didn't take the action he did, more people could've

been hurt," O'Neill said. "He was going to fight back -- he wasn't
going to be a passive victim."
Last Wednesday afternoon, Jones hollered and whacked Paul

Pearson on the head with his cane after Pearson allegedly dumped
lighter fluid on the back of Jones' coat at Third Avenue and Union
Street. Police say Pearson, 50, then sprinted over to two women,
doused them with lighter fluid and lit a match, singeing their coats
and one woman's hair.
King County prosecutors on Friday charged Pearson with two counts

of first-degree assault. He is in the King County Jail in lieu of
$250,000 bail
According to O'Neill, Jones tried to go to the women's aid but was

held back by bystanders who feared his clothes would ignite if he
got too close to the women.
__________________
misconduct
generally."

misconduct.
02-07-2007 12:36 AM

Mack If Copwatch bought the poor old dude a cane, do you think the
Assistant Moderator newspapers would write an article about it?
I somehow doubt it.
__________________
misconduct
generally."
Registered: Jul 2003 Justice Sanders, defending the right to forcibly resist false arrest, State v.
Location:
Posts: 5215

misconduct.
02-07-2007 12:37 AM
liberranter Hmmm, I wonder why the cops opted to replace the old man's
Super Moderator cane rather than arrest him and charge him with assault, which
seems to be standard cop M.O. whenever a citizen stands up to
a violent thug when a cop isn't present.
Maybe the bystanders/witnesses shamed them into it?
__________________
Thomas Jefferson
Location: Tucson, AZ "Oink If You Hate Freedom"
Posts: 5865
Grigg
02-07-2007 12:46 AM

Mack I bet you're right! This guy has been all over the news in recent
Assistant Moderator days, and the cops probably felt they couldn't follow their usual
procedure without generating negative publicity.
__________________
misconduct
generally."
Location:
Posts: 5215 Nothing I post constitutes legal advice. My opinions are not necessarily shared by

misconduct.
02-07-2007 12:53 AM

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COPWATCH.com Forum - Hundreds gather in Edmonds to pay respects to fallen Brier police officer (WA)
COPWATCH.com Forum > NEWS SECTION > News: PROPAGANDA > Hundreds gather
in Edmonds to pay respects to fallen Brier police officer (WA)
Author Thread
Mack Hundreds gather in Edmonds to pay respects to fallen Brier police officer
Assistant Moderator (WA)
Wednesday, September 20, 2006 - Page updated at 12:44 PM

Hundreds gather in Edmonds to pay respects to fallen Brier police
officer
By Jennifer Sullivan
Seattle Times staff reporter
Registered: Jul 2003 Archive | Older brother says fallen officer "deserves a hero's
Location: respect"
Posts: 5215 Archive | Officer dies after struggle with former Brier mayor
More than 100 police officers, who came from as far away as
Adams County in Southeast Washington, clogged the streets of
Edmonds this morning to participate in the funeral procession for

Brier Police Officer Edwanton "Eddie" Thomas.
The procession, which left downtown Edmonds shortly before 10:45

a.m., caused construction workers to stop, watch and hold their
helmets in their hands.
Jaquie Lusier and Donna Johnson of Edmonds paused during their

daily walk to watch the procession.
"We wanted to honor the young man," Johnson said.
Dana Osborn, an operations supervisor for Community Transit,

came down to make sure the buses weren't interrupting the
procession as well as to pay "respects for the officer."
Thomas, 28, died following an altercation Sept. 12 with former Brier

Mayor Gary Starks.
The Memorial service for Thomas was to begin at 11:30 a.m. at

Westgate Chapel, 22901 Edmonds Way. A motorcade from the
chapel to Floral Hill Cemetery at 409 Filbert Road in Lynnwood was
expected to cause the closure of some streets in south Snohomish
County.
The graveside service was expected to begin around 3:25 p.m.

today.
Police and fire personel from around the state came to pay
their respects to Brier Police Officer Edwanton "Eddie"
Thomas.
Attachment: 2003267541.jpg
__________________
misconduct
generally."

misconduct.
09-20-2006 10:00 PM

Mack Local News: Wednesday, September 13, 2006

Assistant Moderator Brier officer dies after struggle at house
By Jennifer Sullivan
http://archives.seattletimes.nwsour...m&date=20060913
BRIER, Snohomish County — A 28-year-old Brier police officer died

at Stevens Hospital on Tuesday night after he was called to a house
and ended up in a struggle with a man police identified as the
Registered: Jul 2003 former mayor of the city.
Location:
Posts: 5215 The officer went to the house in the 22000 block of Vine Road in
Brier at 4:40 p.m. to subdue a 55-year-old combative patient
before he could be helped by medics, said Everett police spokesman
Boyd Bryant.
Police sources said the man is former Brier mayor Gary Starks. The
medical condition made him combative, Bryant said.
At some point during the struggle, the officer pressed the

assistance button on his radio and said he needed help.
Mountlake Terrace police officers showed up and found the officer

unconscious. He was taken to the hospital, where he was
pronounced dead.
The man who had struggled with the officer was questioned by
Mountlake Terrace police. The house where the struggle occurred
belongs to Starks, and police said Starks was involved in the
struggle.
The officer, whose name was not released, has been with the Brier
Police Department just under a year.
Bryant said the officer had law enforcement experience prior to

becoming a Brier officer.
According to the city of Brier Web site, the South Snohomish

County department has seven patrol officers. Though crime in the
small city is often limited to vehicle prowls, car thefts and traffic
problems, a college student was shot to death during a house party
on Sept. 3. Seven teens have been arrested in connection with 21-
year-old Jay Clements' death.
The Snohomish County Sheriff's Office, Everett police and

Mountlake Terrace police are investigating, which is common when
an officer dies in the line of duty.
__________________
misconduct
generally."


misconduct.
09-20-2006 10:05 PM
Mack Thursday, September 14, 2006 - Page updated at 12:00 AM

Assistant Moderator Ex-mayor arrested in officer's death was known for a temper
By Diane Brooks and Brian Alexander
Times Snohomish County bureau
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ht..._starks14m.html
Gary Starks baffled and sometimes outraged his community during

his 26 months as Brier mayor. Controlled, intelligent and
professional in public, [GIVE ME A BREAK] and popular with his
Registered: Jul 2003 neighbors, some say he nevertheless created an atmosphere of
Location: fear and intimidation within City Hall.
Posts: 5215
Those who worked closely with Starks often blamed his
volatile temper on his diabetes and the apparent fluctuations
in his blood-sugar levels. They said they could tell if he wasn't
eating properly or taking his medication. [YEAH, SURE-
DIABETES CAUSES IRRATIONAL VIOLENCE...]
Doctors contacted Wednesday disagreed whether diabetes could

cause such angry reactions.
A neighbor and others said police made frequent visits to his home,
triggered by his wife's frequent 911 calls for medical assistance for
his diabetic episodes.
When the latest call came, late Tuesday afternoon, dispatchers

asked Brier police to enter the house first to subdue Starks, 55,
because he had a history of being "combative" with police and
medics during medical visits, said Everett police Sgt. Boyd Bryant.
Officer Edwanton "Eddie" Thomas, a 28-year-old rookie with the

small department, was the first to arrive at 4:45 p.m., according to
a probable-cause-for-arrest statement filed in Everett District Court.
Starks was alone, so Thomas' radio dispatches provided the only
witness account. He called for backup at 4:53 p.m. and pressed his
radio's emergency-distress button a minute later; dispatchers could
hear yelling, grunting and heavy breathing in the background.
At 4:55 p.m., Thomas said Starks had a gun. A minute later, he

said he had Starks in custody.

Four minutes later, when the next officer arrived, he found Starks
and Thomas lying on a bed, the probable-cause statement says.
Starks was in handcuffs, and Thomas wasn't breathing. Medics
couldn't revive the officer, who was declared dead at Stevens
Hospital in Edmonds.
The court document says there were clear signs that a struggle had
taken place. Items were scattered about the room, and a piece of
the bed's sideboard had broken off. A holstered handgun was lying
on the floor beside the bed.
The cause of death won't be determined for at least a month, the

Snohomish County Medical Examiner's Office said Wednesday. The
death is being investigated by the Snohomish Multi-Agency
Response Team, which is composed of officers from the Everett
Police Department, Snohomish County Sheriff's Office and other
agencies
Starks was arrested on suspicion of third-degree assault and spent

the night in the Snohomish County Jail. Everett District Judge Roger
Fisher released Starks to his family Wednesday, calling the death
an "unfortunate incident." Prosecutors planned to meet with police
today to discuss possible charges.
Starks' wife, Leona Starks, yesterday referred media calls to the

family pastor, the Rev. Ken Hutcherson of Antioch Bible Church in
Redmond. Hutcherson also attended Starks' court hearing.
Hutcherson called Starks "a great family man" who is "very

committed to what he does." But Starks' diabetes sometimes
makes him aggressive, he added, and in the past medics
sometimes had to restrain him before giving treatment.
Several endocrinologists contacted Wednesday hesitated to

connect Starks' aggressive episodes to his diabetes.
"We are extremely skeptical. Most endocrinologists would

see this as an excuse," said Dr. Michael Shannon, a specialist
at Seattle's Veterans Affairs Medical Center. "Poorly controlled
diabetes might produce irritability but would be an unlikely excuse
for outbursts of anger."
But Dr. Mark Silver, the chairman of Stevens Hospital's Diabetes

Advisory Committee, remembered one patient who sometimes
became verbally aggressive and physically violent in response to
fluctuating blood-sugar levels.
"That kind of [aggressive] behavior may not be common, but it is

possible," he said. "It's not something you'd see often, but it is
there. It can happen."
Starks last year scoffed at suggestions that his diabetes ever

affected him on the job.

His conflicts with his staff, and by extension the community,

climaxed in May 2005 when a boisterous, angry crowd of 70
residents and former employees jammed the small Brier City
Council chambers to demand his resignation. In the first 20 months
after Sparks was appointed mayor, filling a vacancy, 11 of the city's
18 full-time employees, including five department heads, had been
fired or quit
"I've been diabetic for 30-some-odd years," he said in an interview

at the time. "It has nothing to do with my so-called anger-
management problem."
But many of Starks' employees and associates said otherwise last

year and again Wednesday.
"There definitely was a well-known predisposition to anger attacks

and aggressive behavior when he wasn't taking his medication,"
said former City Councilwoman Sasha Reinke.
The mood in City Hall on Wednesday was somber, as the tightknit

staff mourned the loss of Thomas. Employees declined to discuss
Starks.
"We're all just trying to deal with it the best we can," said City Clerk
Paula Swisher, who was fired by Starks and then rehired by new
Mayor Bob Colinas.
Starks, who was appointed mayor in October 2003, did not

seek election last fall. Colinas took office Nov. 29.
Outside, a steady stream of visitors dropped by a sidewalk

memorial, leaving flowers, sharing stories and signing a sympathy
book.
Thomas was the newest addition to Brier's eight-member police

force. He graduated from Mountlake Terrace High School in 1997
and from Everett Community College, and had worked his way up
from jobs with tribal and college police agencies. He joined Brier
police in January.
"He had this charming baby face," said Brittany Fredette, 19,
who added a red rose and a poster — it read, "You will be
missed Officer Thomas, R.I.P." — to the memorial.
Fredette met Thomas when he ticketed her for speeding

shortly after his hire. She saw him again at the city's recent
National Night Out Against Crime event. She was baby-sitting a 3-
year-old girl; Thomas placed the child in his squad car and showed
her its cool gizmos.
"He was a very personal, fun, caring nice guy," Fredette said.
City Councilman Carlton Gipson, who had supported Starks as

mayor and considers him a friend, was dismayed Wednesday.

"I'd like to encourage the community to pray for the fallen officer's
family and for Gary Starks' family," he said.
Thomas was Brier's first police officer to die in the line of duty.
The last Snohomish County law-enforcement officer to die in the

line of duty was Everett police Officer Brian DiBucci, who was killed
July 15, 1999, when he fell 100 feet from a highway overpass
during a foot chase.
ex-Mayor, Gary Starks, arrested in connection with death of

officer
Attachment: ex-mayor, gary starks, arrested in connection with

death of officer.jpg
__________________
misconduct
generally."

misconduct.
09-20-2006 10:14 PM
Mack The article above is so predictable and PC as to shock the

Assistant Moderator conscience.
- The "intelligent" Mayor
- His misconduct "caused by" diabetes
- The ubiquitous black Pastor stepping in to defend him
- The Jewish doctor validating the medical excuse

Location:
- The cop who pulls over an attractive 19 year old for "speeding"-
Posts: 5215
she later says "he's so personal"
The dead (murdered?) cop. I'd guess it wouldn't be

impossible to put handcuffs on oneself after a deed was
done...

Attachment: officer eddie thomas..jpg

__________________
misconduct
generally."

misconduct.
09-20-2006 10:16 PM
Mack Published: Wednesday, September 13, 2006

Assistant Moderator Circumstances of officer's death are puzzling
By Jim Haley
Herald writer
BRIER - Police found odd circumstances Tuesday when they went

inside a Brier home where a young police officer reportedly
struggled with a man and collapsed, court papers filed today show.
Location: When officers arrived at the home in the 22000 block of Vine Road,
Posts: 5215 they found a Brier police officer, 28, and a Brier man, 55, both on
top of a bed in a back bedroom, according to documents filed in
Everett District Court.
The Brier man was in handcuffs. The officer was unconscious and
not breathing, documents said.
The Brier man was arrested early this morning for investigation of
third-degree assault. He was booked into the Snohomish County
Jail in Everett about 4:30 this morning, Everett police Sgt. Boyd
Bryant said.
The man was expected to make a court appearance later today.
There were obvious signs of a struggle in the room, including items

scattered about and a piece of the sideboard of the bed broken off.
A pistol in a holster also was spotted on the floor beside the bed,
according to court papers.
The death is being investigated by a team of detectives from

Everett, Mountlake Terrace and the Snohomish County Sheriff's
Office.

The decision to detain the man in connection with an assault was

made in consultation with deputy prosecutors, Bryant said.
The officer had gone to the home after emergency dispatchers

received a report of a diabetic man in need of medical treatment,
documents show. The officer was told by a dispatcher that the man
in need of medical attention had a history of being aggressive to
officers and aid workers while in this condition, document said.
The officer requested backup from Mountlake Terrace. Although an

aid crew had arrived, it was waiting for the situation to be stabilized
before entering the home, according to documents.
At 4:54 p.m., The officer pushed the emergency distress button on

his hand-held radio. A minute later, the officer broadcast that the
man with whom he was struggling had a gun.
On one of the officer's radio transmissions, "yelling, grunting and

heavy breathing could be heard in the background," the document
said.
The Brier officer was rushed to Stevens Hospital in Edmonds but

efforts to revive him were unsuccessful. An autopsy is planned,
officials said.
__________________
misconduct
generally."

misconduct.
09-20-2006 10:26 PM

Mack Friday, September 15, 2006 · Last updated 9:39 p.m. PT

Assistant Moderator Brier police returning after mourning officer
Memorial fund set up for Thomas
By HECTOR CASTRO
P-I REPORTER
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local..._Brier15ww.html
Brier police officers are expected to be back at work

Saturday patrolling their town after taking the past
Location:
two days off for a period of mourning.
Posts: 5215
On Tuesday, o Officer Eddie Thomas, 28, died after responding to a
medical aid call at the home of former Brier m Mayor Gary Starks.
The former mayor was arrested and charged with third-degree
assault, but released the next day and the case remains under
investigation.
On Saturday, Thomas' family is expected to hold a news conference

at Brier City Hall, said Everett police Sgt. Boyd Bryant. The incident
is being investigated by the Snohomish Multi-Agency Response
Team, a coalition of law enforcement agencies, including Everett
police.
Investigators said Thomas responded to the Starkses' home alone

after Leona Starks called 911 to report her husband was in diabetic
distress and needed help. Starks had a history of being combative
with aid workers, investigators have said, so a police officer was
dispatched while the medical aid crews waited nearby.
Thomas and Gary Starks struggled and the officer called for help.
But before his backup arrived, Thomas radioed that he had Starks
under control. When a second officer arrived, that officer found
Starks in handcuffs and Thomas unresponsive.
An autopsy did not conclude how he died and the Snohomish

County Medical Examiner's Office has said it could be weeks until
test results reveal the cause of death.
A public memorial service for Thomas is scheduled for 11:30 a.m.

Wednesday at Westgate Chapel in Edmonds.
A fund to benefit the Thomas family has been set up at Sterling

Savings Bank. It is called the Officer Edwanton Thomas Memorial
Fund. The Lynnwood Police Officers Association has also set up an
Officer Thomas Memorial Fund at Evergreen Bank.
__________________
misconduct
generally."


misconduct.
09-20-2006 10:27 PM
GC Marciano quote:
He called for backup at 4:53 p.m. and pressed
his radio's emergency-distress button a
minute later; dispatchers could hear yelling,
grunting and heavy breathing in the
background.
At 4:55 p.m., Thomas said Starks had a gun. A

Registered: Jul 2003 minute later, he said he had Starks in custody.
Posts: 9967 Four minutes later, when the next officer
arrived, he found Starks and Thomas lying on
a bed, the probable-cause statement says.
Starks was in handcuffs, and Thomas wasn't
breathing. Medics couldn't revive the officer,
who was declared dead at Stevens Hospital in
Edmonds.
Here's my analysis of the situation:
Officer Starks was sexually assaulting former mayor Thomas

when Thomas began struggling to defend himself from pervert
Starks.
During the struggle Starks reached climax, causing him to

become disoriented and weak in the knees. He collapsed on the
bed next to his victim who then held attacker Starks in a choke
hold, resulting in his death.
And if I'm wrong... who cares. It's not like anybody important
died.
__________________

Court
agents.
09-20-2006 10:36 PM
Mack Sounds as plausible as anything the officials are coming up with.

Assistant Moderator
__________________
misconduct
generally."
Registered: Jul 2003 COPWATCH or by any other Moderators or participants.
Location:
Posts: 5215 COPWATCH.com POLICING THE POLICE
misconduct.
09-20-2006 10:59 PM
liberranter A *** killed by a politician... BEAUTIFUL! Now maybe

Super Moderator somewhere else in Amerika within the next few days the
opposite will occur as well, just for "balance."
__________________
Thomas Jefferson

Grigg

â” W. Somerset Maugham, Strictly Personal (1941)
09-21-2006 02:21 AM
Mack Thursday, September 21, 2006 - Page updated at 12:26 AM

Assistant Moderator Officer's "untiring devotion" recalled
By Brian Alexander
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ht...1_brier21m.html
The service drew law-enforcement officers from the other

side of the Cascades and across the border with Canada.
Brier residents came out of their homes and stood in the rain to pay
their respects and watch the milelong funeral processional.
Location: Brier Police Chief Don Lane choked down sobs as he shared
Posts: 5215 memories of an officer, though on the Brier force for less than a
year, who had an "untiring devotion to the citizens of Brier."
Officer Edwanton "Eddie" Thomas was honored during funeral

processions that lasted nearly the entire day Wednesday.
Gov. Christine Gregoire's husband, Mike Gregoire, attended

the memorial, as well as state and Snohomish County
leaders. Hundreds of emergency personnel from across the
region also came out for the officer who is "gone but not
forgotten."
Organizers estimated that 1,500 people were at Westgate

Chapel in Edmonds for the memorial service — so many that
organizers provided an overflow room with a video feed of the
service.
Later in the day, a couple of hundred people stood at attention in

the wind and rain at a graveside service.
Thomas died Sept. 12 after a struggle with a former mayor of Brier.

Gary Starks had low blood sugar and was aggressive; Thomas was
called to subdue him for treatment.
The official cause of Thomas' death has yet to be determined. Police

are still investigating the incident, and it will probably be some time
before charges, if any, are brought.
At the service, Thomas was remembered as a man of "great

promise."
Chris Herrera, a Mukilteo police officer and close friend of

Thomas', shared memories from when the two were growing

up near Lynnwood.
They both knew they wanted to be police

officers from a very young age and would
practice using sirens and handcuffs they bought
at a local dollar store, Herrera said.
They would ride their bikes in the parking lots

around their apartment complex. When they
would see a "suspect," which was any neighbor
kid, they'd turn on the sirens, chase down the
"suspect" and put him in handcuffs.
"Eddie and I just never got out of that stage,"

he said.
Trevor Tillman, a longtime friend of Thomas', thanked the gathered
uniformed personnel for supporting "my friend." In tearful remarks,
Tillman spoke of things he appreciated about Thomas.
"I could always look behind me and see him there," he said. "My
sense of humor, my drive, are all gifts that Eddie left for me."
Thomas' cousin Lovell Richardson also spoke at the memorial

service. Thomas inspired him by example, motivating him to pursue
a career in U.S. Customs, Richardson said.
"I was looking forward to the day I could show Eddie my badge," he
said. "He accomplished in 28 years of life what many couldn't in 80."
Richardson said last week that Thomas was treated for heart
problems a year ago and took medication for it. Richardson didn't
think Thomas was still on medication, saying he was given a "clean
bill of health."
Other sources have also pointed to a possible heart problem as a

potential cause of death.
A police procession for Thomas began Wednesday morning

at Mountlake Terrace High School, Thomas' high school.
From there, it proceeded to downtown Edmonds.
In Edmonds, construction workers stopped to watch, holding their

helmets in their hands.
Jaquie Lusier and Donna Johnson of Edmonds paused during their

daily walk to watch the procession.
"We wanted to honor the young man," Johnson said.
Dana Osborn, an operations supervisor for Community

Transit, came down to make sure the buses weren't

interrupting the procession as well as to pay "respects for the
officer."
The procession traveled to Westgate Chapel on Edmonds Way for

the service. Afterward, the procession continued to Floral Hill
Cemetery. Officers and deputies closed roads as the hearse, a
limousine carrying the family and dozens of police vehicles
with lights flashing approached.
Brier police officers stood down Wednesday for the memorial

service — many took a seat with their loved ones front and center
at the service.
Chief Lane's comments during the memorial moved the audience to

both tears and laughter.
Thomas would always approach his boss with

ideas about new equipment he could get for the
department for "free," and sometimes he was
able to deliver.
Recently, the Brier Police Department got a computer because of
Thomas' efforts, Lane said.
"The citizens of our community are the true beneficiaries of Officer

Thomas' commitment, dedication and service," he said. "I will
forever miss coming into the office and saying, 'Hi Eddie,' and
hearing his familiar 'Hey, boss.' "
__________________
misconduct
generally."

misconduct.
09-21-2006 05:30 PM

Mack Saturday, September 30, 2006

Assistant Moderator Police had been to ex-mayor's home before
Brier officer slain in last Starks call
By AMY ROLPH
P-I REPORTER
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/287125_brier30.html
The police call that led to the death of a young police officer in the
home of a former Brier mayor earlier this month wasn't isolated,
Registered: Jul 2003 police reports released this week indicate.
Location:
Posts: 5215 Brier police officers responded to Gary Starks' home several times
during the past 10 years, and reports obtained by the P-I through a
public disclosure request detail he had a history of violent diabetic
episodes and insisted on keeping a gun in his home.
On Sept. 13, 28-year-old Brier police Officer Eddie Thomas died in

Starks' home after what sounded like a struggle to police
dispatchers. Thomas had called twice for backup and told
dispatchers that Starks had a gun.
Starks, who was appointed mayor in 2003 after his predecessor

resigned, was arrested but later released. The investigation is
ongoing.
Thomas had responded to an emergency medical call from Starks'

wife, Leona. It wasn't the first time she had called for assistance;
police records show she summoned officers to the residence in
February 2003 and in December 2005 for assistance when her
husband lapsed into diabetic comas.
An officer reported to Starks' home on February 6, 2003, after his

wife called 911 because he was not answering the phone and she
was afraid he was having an insulin reaction.
Starks was found in a bedroom in an agitated state, the report said.

Aid workers told the reporting officer that Starks had a blood sugar
level of 33; a normal blood sugar level for a non-diabetic would be
about 100.
"Gary became combative and it was necessary for me to restrain

Gary so that glucose could be administered to him," the officer
wrote.
The officer noted there was a loaded .38-caliber semiautomatic

handgun on the nightstand near where he found Starks. After
Starks recovered, the officer advised him not to keep the handgun
readily available, considering his medical condition.
"Gary told me that the handgun is for 'home protection' and he

would not consider getting rid of it," the report stated.
The officer wrote that he spoke to Starks' wife about the handgun,
and she agreed with his opinion that it was dangerous, but said her

husband insisted on having it.
On Dec. 15, 2005, officers had to force their way into the locked
Starks residence to assist with another diabetic-shock emergency,
but no mention was made of a gun or of Starks acting combative.
On Aug.4, Starks was involved in a car accident when his blood

sugar dipped to a level of 20. Witnesses said he took a turn too fast
while driving a green Mercedes and crashed into another vehicle.
Former Brier employees, who worked for the city during Starks'
tenure as mayor, have contended he has a bad temper and a
tendency to be combative. In 2004, a complaint was lodged with
the police, alleging that Starks destroyed official city documents
and then spoke harshly with a person whose name was redacted
from a report.
Another report in 2004 detailed that Starks, who was mayor at the
time, asked an officer to accompany him while he demanded -- in
what the officer thought was a "hostile tone" -- that a construction
worker stop working one evening since it was past 7 p.m., when
work in the city must stop.
Police reports show he complained five times between 1996 and

1999 about a neighbor who made machinery noise in his own
garage.
__________________
misconduct
generally."

misconduct.
10-02-2006 02:03 AM

Mack Wednesday, November 1, 2006 - Page updated at 12:00 AM

Assistant Moderator Tests ordered to find if officer, ex-Brier mayor fought over gun
By Brian Alexander
Times Snohomish County Bureau
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ht..._starks01m.html
Snohomish County detectives are looking for fingerprints and DNA

evidence on weapons recovered from the home of a former Brier
mayor to try to determine whether the mayor and a police officer
Registered: Jul 2003 fought over a weapon before the officer died.
Location:
Posts: 5215 The police officer, Edwanton "Eddie" Thomas, died Sept. 12 at a
hospital after an apparent struggle with former Brier Mayor Gary
Starks during an aid call to Starks' home. The official cause of
Thomas' death has not been released, but according to a family
member and court documents, Thomas had a pre-existing heart
condition.
During the call, Thomas said over his police radio that Starks had a
gun and dispatchers could hear the two struggle, but it's unclear
whether the two struggled over a firearm.
When backup officers arrived a few minutes later, Starks was in

handcuffs and Thomas was unconscious. A holstered gun was lying
on the floor nearby. Another gun later was found hidden in the
former mayor's bed.
In all, Starks had 12 guns that were surrendered to police as part of

the terms of his release from jail after the Sept. 12 incident. The
weapons were in the Mountlake Police Department evidence room,
but detectives requested a search warrant to test the weapons for
DNA and fingerprints.
Whether Starks and Thomas fought over control of a weapon could

be a "critical" detail in determining whether Starks should be
charged, and with what crime, according to a search-warrant
affidavit filed in Snohomish County District Court in Everett.
Snohomish County investigators assigned to the case planned to

submit the 12 guns belonging to Starks to the Washington State
Patrol Crime Laboratory for DNA and latent-fingerprint testing,
according to the document.
Among other things, lab technicians would look for Thomas'

fingerprints — which could shed light on what happened between
Starks and Thomas, the document says.
Snohomish County Chief Criminal Deputy Prosecutor Joan

Cavagnaro said there aren't any imminent plans to file charges
against Starks.
Starks, a diabetic, had low blood sugar at the time of the struggle.
Police and paramedics were dispatched to his house to help
administer aid to the former mayor.

Starks had a history of being combative with medics during

treatment for low blood sugar but would calm down soon after the
treatment was administered, according to the search-warrant
affidavit.
__________________
misconduct
generally."

misconduct.
11-01-2006 08:30 PM

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COPWATCH.com Forum - Those dirty motherf*ckers!!!!
COPWATCH.com Forum > NEWS SECTION > News: PROPAGANDA > Those dirty
motherf*ckers!!!!
Author Thread
SJ01 Those dirty motherf*ckers!!!!

Senior Member
When I went to bed last night, I had 24 videos on YouTube. When I

checked this morning, I had 10. Apparently some LAPD f*g got
them to remove EVERYTHING about the North Hollywood
Shootout!!!!!
Because it did not glorify the police and make the "bad guys" look
like idiotic morons, it was apparently unfit for public viewing.
If anyone wants a vid of mine, I can send it to you over MSN

Registered: Jul 2006 messenger or AIM.
Location:
Posts: 126

07-28-2006 11:57 AM
GC Marciano The pig who was whining about the videos must be pretty
Copwatcher Extraordinaire embarassed by the publication of them.
The videos exposed him and his cronies as being nothing more
than incompetent, moronic imbeciles.
__________________
Registered: Jul 2003 on the Internet is to inform the public for its own safety, not to humiliate the
Location: Chicago, Illinois officer. Even if the collateral effect of the Internet posting is to shame the
Posts: 9967 officer, this effect is the result of the Officer's crimes. We agree with the
Court
agents.
07-28-2006 02:23 PM
Mack That's infuriating.

Assistant Moderator
I wish there was some way of obtaining the identity of the cop who
instigated it.
__________________
misconduct
generally."
Registered: Jul 2003 Justice Sanders, defending the right to forcibly resist false arrest, State v.
Location:
Posts: 5215

misconduct.
07-28-2006 09:17 PM

SJ01 Bah. I'll just upload them to another host. The cops can't get rid
Senior Member
of me that easily!

Location:
Posts: 126
07-28-2006 09:42 PM
maryjane1725
Junior Member
I know that feeling.....I've been posting videos of the harassment
that the LAPD helicopters have unleashed on me for filing an
Internal Affairs complaint and woke up to the same thing.
But I've started a seperate webpage that they can't touch and put
links in my profile.....try doing that.
Location: los angeles Good luck....these as***les need to be held accountable.
Posts: 15
go to http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=maryjane1725
Last edited by maryjane1725 on 10-10-2006 at 11:39 PM
10-10-2006 03:35 PM
liberranter Thanks for posting this, StovePipe. I've been hearing not-very-
Super Moderator nice things about YouTube from quite some time. This simply
confirms in my mind that some enterprising soul out there
needs to start up an alternative service that isn't dedicated to
glorifying Amerifascism.
__________________
Thomas Jefferson
Registered: Jun 2005 "Oink If You Hate Freedom"

Posts: 5865 "And this brings us to a point that has to be driven home with


Grigg
10-10-2006 07:11 PM
GC Marciano Google bought youtube today ($1.65 billion)... I wonder if

Copwatcher Extraordinaire anything will change.
__________________
Registered: Jul 2003 resulting from crimes committed by Sworn Officers of the Law is not the kind
Location: Chicago, Illinois of fundamental right contemplated by our constitution." - Illinois Supreme
Posts: 9967 Court
agents.
10-10-2006 07:37 PM
SJ01 quote:
Senior Member
Google bought youtube today ($1.65 billion)... I
wonder if anything will change.
Speaking of that, I've been hanging around youtube as

RoffleWaffle223. They can ban me as many times as they want, I'll
just keep coming back.
Location:

10-10-2006 11:00 PM
Thomas UK Go to infowars.com and read the article about homeland security

Junior Member targeting bloggers. THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS!
Registered: Oct 2006 Report this post to a moderator |

Location: Wales
Posts: 7
10-18-2006 12:44 AM

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COPWATCH.com Forum - ***-Loving Boston Herald Columnist Decries Cop "Ambush"
COPWATCH.com Forum > NEWS SECTION > News: PROPAGANDA > ***-Loving
Boston Herald Columnist Decries Cop "Ambush"
Author Thread
liberranter ***-Loving Boston Herald Columnist Decries Cop "Ambush"

Super Moderator
http://news.bostonherald.com/column...rticleid=148907
I would ask Mr. Fitzgerald how he would feel if his own kid's
backyard birthday party were interrupted in such a manner (oh
wait, that NEVER happens in middle-class neighborhoods
populated by good upstanding Irish citizens).
If you missed it, a rookie Boston cop was in full pursuit of

a suspect, whom he believed might be armed, when the
Registered: Jun 2005 chase led them through a yard where a children’s
Location: Tucson, AZ birthday party was in progress.
Posts: 5865
"Believed might be armed?" We all know what happens to
people whom cops "believe might be" armed. The parents of the

birthday party kids knew this too, which explains what

happened next.
“It was difficult to make out his exact words, other than
screaming for help, because while he was on the ground
with this guy, partygoers began pelting him with Pepsi
cans, sets of keys, anything they could find. Some
actually began to kick and punch him.”
Of course. Being lower-income minority residents of a Boston

neighborhood, they know that they (and their kids) are in
infinitely more danger from Boston's rogue, racist cops than
from whatever perps said cops may be chasing.
During the melee, Gero’s cell phone was ripped from the
pocket of his shirt, so, after the arrest was made, he
returned to retrieve it.
“Everyone played dumb,” McCarthy said. “No one knew
what happened to the officer’s phone.”
That was Sunday night, and not one political or pastoral
leader in Roxbury, Dorchester and Mattapan has seen fit
to acknowledge, much less condemn, the unconscionable
behavior of that cowardly mob.
There hasn’t been a single a peep of outrage.
First of all, the stupid porko should have known better than to
have his cellphone unsecured on his person, knowing the
likelihood of its loss in the event that he was "forced" to give
chase.
More importantly, how can Mr. Fitzgerald call any "mob" (i.e.,
large number of citizens banded together for a common
purpose) "cowardly" when they had the guts to defend their
children and property from an armed and probably belligerently
violent thug who considered himself in mortal danger (without
any real evidence) and would probably have opened fire on the
first person who even looked at him the wrong way, including
children? To me, these people are braver than any cop.
“Here we are, in the peak of summer,” McCarthy noted,

“when everyone’s looking for more cops, and these folks
had one in their own backyard, but didn’t want him there.
They could have assisted the officer, or at least not
impeded him, and yet they did neither; in fact, they did
everything they could to prevent him from doing his job.”
Typically arrogant porko proclamation in which it is assumed

that all of a demographic segment of citizenry "wants" cops
present in their neighborhood because some self-anointed
"community leader" said so.
For the kids looking on, it was a riveting display of

warped values, a disgraceful endorsement of a mindset
“community leaders” profess to abhor.

“The kids witnessed adults encouraging the bad guy to

get away,” McCarthy pointed out. “That was the message
the adults gave them, loud and clear: Beat up the police
and help the bad guy get away. You’d think they wouldn’t
want someone like that running through their children’s
party. But nothing’s unbelievable to me anymore.”
Sure, ignore all the violence and mayhem that cops create in
the community and then blame the victims. These parents were
teaching their kids a sad truth: the "perp" whom the cop is
chasing is more often than not harmless compared to the cop
chasing him. My guess too is that the perp whom the cop was
chasing did less damage to property and person than the cop in
pursuit.
Damon Mercer, who’s been a Boston firefighter for 22

years, once explained to an assembly of Mattapan eighth-
graders how he chose his profession.
“Growing up in Mission Hill,” he said, “I’d see people
applauding firefighters, knowing they had come to help.
I’d hear of Officer Friendly, but in my mind Mr. Friendly
was always a firefighter. People would get mad at the
police, especially when they came to lock up someone,
but firefighters never made anyone mad.”
Exactly! Unlike cops, firefighters and their EMT colleagues

actually render an essential service to members of the
community that the community both wants and needs. The only
time you usually ever hear of a firefighter destroying property is
when he or she is attempting to save the life of someone
trapped in it. Cops, on the other hand, do so gratuitously on a
regular basis for no other reason that they can and that the
owners of said property are members of demographic groups
that the cops dislike.
“That’s pretty much how it is,” [McCarthy] agreed.

“When we show up, no one’s waiting to say, ‘Hey, great
to see you today!’
That's because you almost always show up uninvited, looking

for trouble, and ready to trample the civil rights and property of
the citizens you encounter. Why don't you take the hint,
asshole?
“Still, there’s no excuse for what happened to Officer

Gero. Imagine if one of those kids had been hurt by the
suspect he was trying to apprehend; he’d have been
ripped for not protecting them. Instead he got beaten up
for it.
“Yet he was back at roll call Monday night, ready to do it
again.”

Oh, waaaaah! THAT'S HIS F***ING JOB! If he can't stand the

heat in the kitchen, let him go out and get a real job that
doesn't depend on stolen taxpayer dollars.
Methinks Mr. Fitzgerald comes from a long line of stereotypical

Boston Irish cops: corrupt, thieving drunks and bullies who beat
their wives and kids and generally run roughshod over the
citizenry, particularly if they are not of "European" origin.
__________________
Thomas Jefferson

Grigg
07-19-2006 03:47 PM
Rylan “It was difficult to make out his exact words, other than
Senior Member screaming for help, because while he was on the ground
with this guy, partygoers began pelting him with Pepsi cans,
Registered: May 2006 sets of keys, anything they could find. Some actually began
Location: to kick and punch him.”
Posts: 931
Laughing. Out. Loud.
__________________
Are you a gleaming hypocrite? Do you lack intelligence, ambition, and respect for
the State!

07-19-2006 05:50 PM

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COPWATCH.com Forum - Disgusting Pro-cop Propaganda From The Hamilton, Ontario Press
COPWATCH.com Forum > NEWS SECTION > News: PROPAGANDA > Disgusting Pro-
cop Propaganda From The Hamilton, Ontario Press
Author Thread
liberranter Disgusting Pro-cop Propaganda From The Hamilton, Ontario Press

Super Moderator
http://www.hamiltonspectator.com/NA...l=1112101662670
Rural Canada's Cop Haters
'Ticking time bombs,' says criminologist

By Judy Monchuk
The Canadian Press
(Jul 18, 2006)

An Alberta criminologist says rural Canada's idyllic image as a
Location: Tucson, AZ peaceful and protected oasis from big city danger is a myth that
Posts: 5865 often hides "nasty little cauldrons" of police haters.
As the country reels from the deaths of two Saskatchewan

RCMP officers, Bill Pitt said the rural landscape is littered with
"ticking time bombs" like alleged killer Curtis Dagenais --
socially marginalized people who hate police authority and are
increasingly willing to act on those feelings.
"Rural areas can be a very dangerous place to be, it can almost

set you up to the point where there's a false sense of security,"
said the former Mountie who teaches at the University of
Alberta.
Pitt said on the surface, working in a small town where

everyone knows each other would appear to be the picture of
safety.
"It belies the fact that there are a lot of weapons in these rural
areas, there are a lot of people (who) have been socially
marginalized ... and there are people who have a willingness to
use firearms," he explained. "When you start peeling back the
layers, (small towns) can be as dangerous, if not more
dangerous, than urban areas."
Canadians were jolted into that reality by the 2005 ambush

deaths of four Mounties in Mayerthorpe, Alta., by James Roszko,
who then killed himself.
There are other communities across the country where police

officers don't want to be transferred, where they perceive the
threats to their safety are higher.
"They're not as rare as you might think," said Pitt. "It's like
these little pockets of anomalies that gain reputations of having
bad relations with police, that have people (who) are openly cop
haters."
The RCMP patrols much of rural Canada, vast stretches of

wilderness populated by tiny pockets of civilization. But a top
Mountie doesn't believe those areas pose a higher risk.
"The notion that there are ticking time bombs living in our
communities is real," said Chief Superintendent Mike Woods,
who oversees community policing for the RCMP.
"There are people who have problems, issues, concerns with

authority. But I think those kinds of problems exist as much in
rural as urban communities."
A Saskatchewan social worker with 30 years experience said the

difference is the way risks can be handled in urban areas.
Hirsch Greenberg said social agencies and crisis centres that

can intervene at an earlier stage in cities usually don't exist in
rural areas. That makes domestic situations, potentially the
highest risk situations for police, more dangerous.
"What's different in a rural setting is that police don't have the

backup, they become the last resort, they become the net," said
Greenberg, who teaches justice studies at the University of
Regina. "The critical point ... the crisis ... tends to fester longer,
and when something does happen, it explodes in a much more
violent way because there's no way to catch the buildup.
Emotions that could be tempered earlier tend to fester."
Pitt maintains that the degree of danger has ratcheted up in

recent years. He said the Spiritwood slayings may ignite public
debate over bringing back the death penalty for cop killers.
"Going after police officers has become much more of an option.

People don't think they will be punished."
----END-------
Amazing how lapdog-compliant the MSM are when it comes to

"murders" of cops (which, with just a little bit of effortless
digging, most journalists will find aren't "murders" at all, but
killings by citizens defending themselves from assault by
violent, lawless swine), yet they never treat crimes by rogue
cops for what they are: "hate crimes" by cops against those
they allegedly swear an oath to protect (an oath none of them
take seriously, assuming they're even sober enough at the time
they take it to even know what they're committing themselves
to).
__________________
Thomas Jefferson

Grigg
07-18-2006 06:31 PM

Rylan There were only five intentional Canadian police officer deaths in
Senior Member 2005. Five!
Registered: May 2006 __________________

Location: Are you a gleaming hypocrite? Do you lack intelligence, ambition, and respect for
Posts: 931 yourself and others? Does the thought of intimidating, arresting, and possibly
the State!
07-18-2006 06:44 PM
Mack quote:
Assistant Moderator
Originally posted by Rylan
There were only five intentional Canadian police
officer deaths in 2005. Five!
Registered: Jul 2003 The time-bomb was a dud, apparently.

Location:
Posts: 5215
__________________
misconduct
generally."

misconduct.
07-19-2006 04:36 PM

Mack Re: Disgusting Pro-cop Propaganda From The Hamilton, Ontario Press
Assistant Moderator
quote:

...rural Canada often hides "nasty little cauldrons"
of police haters. ...there are a lot of weapons in
these rural areas, there are a lot of people (who)
have been socially marginalized ... there are
Registered: Jul 2003 people who have a willingness to use firearms,"...
Location:
people (who) are openly cop haters." ..."There
Posts: 5215
are people who have problems, issues, concerns
with authority.
Wow, this sounds great! Rylan, maybe Canada is indeed a decent

country to move to, (even if Canadians have fewer free-speech
rights and more restrictive gun laws).
Canada's heading downhill very quickly, but this give me hope.
__________________
misconduct
generally."

misconduct.
07-19-2006 04:41 PM


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COPWATCH.com Forum - National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund
COPWATCH.com Forum > NEWS SECTION > News: PROPAGANDA > National Law Enforcement
Officers Memorial Fund
Author Thread
Mack National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund

Assistant Moderator
National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund

http://www.nleomf.com/TheFund/fund.htm
quote:
MISSION STATEMENT
The mission of the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund is
Location: to generate increased public support for the law enforcement
Posts: 5215 profession by permanently recording and appropriately
commemorating the service and sacrifice of law enforcement officers;
and to provide information that will help promote law enforcement
safety.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GOALS AND ACCOMPLISHMENTS
Built the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial, which is visited

by more than 200,000 people annually.
Established and now operate the Memorial Museum and Visitors Center.

Collected and catalogued information on more than 17,500 law

enforcement fatalities.
Published the book, To Serve and Protect-A Tribute to American Law

Enforcement.
Successfully lobbied for a federal law requiring all American

flags to be lowered to half-staff on "Peace Officers Memorial
Day" (May 15th each year).
Successfully lobbied for a federal law authorizing the U.S. Mint

to issue 500,000 National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial
Commemorative Silver Dollars. Approximately $1.5 million in
proceeds were raised for maintenance and repair of the
Memorial.
Created and now maintain an Internet Web Site, which includes a

complete listing of all law enforcement officers killed in the line of duty
(www.nleomf.com).
Conduct an annual Candlelight Vigil attended by more than 18,000

people to honor fallen officers and to announce the Roll Call of new
officer names added to the Memorial walls.
Successfully lobbied for a federal law (P.L. 106-492) which

authorizes the building of a national law enforcement museum
on federal property at Judiciary Square in Washington, D.C.
Construction is expected to begin in 2007, with opening scheduled for
2009. The $80 million required to build the National Law Enforcement
Museum must be raised privately; as such, the NLEOMF has embarked
on A Matter of Honor: The Campaign to Build the National Law
Enforcement Museum.
__________________
Justice Sanders, defending the right to forcibly resist false arrest, State v. Valentine, [<LINK] 935
P.2d 1294 (writing in dissent). WA Supreme Court, 1997.
Nothing I post constitutes legal advice. My opinions are not necessarily shared by COPWATCH or by
any other Moderators or participants.

07-06-2006 05:05 PM

liberranter quote:
Super Moderator
Originally cited by Mack
Successfully lobbied for a federal law (P.L. 106-492) which

authorizes the building of a national law enforcement
museum on federal property at Judiciary Square in
Washington, D.C. Construction is expected to begin in
2007, with opening scheduled for 2009. The $80 million
required to build the National Law Enforcement Museum
must be raised privately; as such, the NLEOMF has
embarked on A Matter of Honor: The Campaign to Build the
National Law Enforcement Museum.
Posts: 5865
So the Brotherhood of Porkos spent taxpayer dollars to lobby the thieves of

those dollars for a monument to themselves in the national capitol, to be built
with additional stolen taxpayer dollars (don't believe for a second that only
"private" funds will be used)? Par for the course.
I wonder if anyone could successfully lobby to have a monument built right

next to this one (to be funded ENTIRELY with PRIVATE DONATIONS, of
course) commemorating those hundreds of thousands, if not MILLIONS of
citizens since the founding of the republic who have been unjustly killed by
the State. Not just by LE, but by the judiciary and the executive branches
(local, state and federal) as well.
__________________
"Whensoever the General Government assumes undelegated powers, its acts
are unauthoritative, void, and of no force." - Thomas Jefferson
"And this brings us to a point that has to be driven home with the pitiless
force of a jackhammer: It is the guilty, collusive silence of good police officers
that makes possible the ever-accumulating atrocities of the 'bad' ones." -
William Norman Grigg
"If a nation values anything more than freedom, it will lose its freedom; and
the irony of it is that if it is comfort or money that it values more, it will lose
that too.
07-06-2006 05:23 PM


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COPWATCH.com Forum - Officer Down Memorial Page
COPWATCH.com Forum > NEWS SECTION > News: PROPAGANDA > Officer Down
Memorial Page
Author Thread
Mack Officer Down Memorial Page

Assistant Moderator
Officer Down Memorial Page- "Remembering all of law

enforcement's heroes"
http://www.odmp.org/info/criteria.php
quote:
Criteria for Inclusion

Location: All submissions will be reviewed by a member of the
Posts: 5215 Officer Down Memorial Page, Inc., Board of Directors.
Submissions that cannot be verified by a single board
member will be reviewed by a majority of the full
board. All decisions made by the board are final unless
the board finds sufficient reason to re-review individual
submissions at a later date. If at any time an officer

listed on the ODMP is found to not meet the criteria,

the officer will be removed from the ODMP.
QUALIFYING CAUSES OF DEATH
Felonious Causes - Any law enforcement officer who is

killed in a felonious way as a result of a line of duty
incident.
Accidental Causes - Any law enforcement officer who

dies in an accidental way as a result of a line of duty
incident.
The category "Gunfire (Accidental)" is defined as an

incident in which an officer is the victim of an
accidental/unintentional discharge of a firearm
by the victim officer or another officer; is the
victim a case of mistaken identity by another
officer; or, is fatally wounded as the result of
friendly-fire during a shooting involving one or
more suspects and one or more other officers. The
category "Gunfire" is defined as any incident in which
an officer is the victim of a shooting by a criminal in the
commission of a crime; or, is the victim of a discharge
of a weapon by a civilian.
Natural Causes - Any law enforcement officer who

dies of natural causes (heart attack, brain
aneurysm, etc.) due to physical exertion during a
stressful event while on duty.
Example scenarios:
Struggle with a suspect
Foot chase or other pursuit of a suspect
Health Related Causes - Any law enforcement officer

who dies as a result of any health related cause
(illness, disease, infection, etc.) that is a direct result of
the officer's law enforcement duties.
Example scenarios:
Contraction of an infectious disease or illness such as

Hepatitis or AIDS
Contraction of an infection or illness as a result of a

duty related illness
Health related issues due to a HAZMAT incident

Evidence of a direct relation between a duty related
incident and the contraction of a disease or illness
much be presented in the form of official
documentation.

Previous Injuries - Any law enforcement officer who

dies as a result of any criminal act or accidental cause
sustained at any time while on duty before the actual
date of death. Written proof, such as a coroner's report
or department records, may be required via fax or U.S.
mail.
Off Duty Deaths - Any law enforcement officer who dies

or is killed off duty while acting in an official capacity to
prevent loss of property, injury, or death, or is targeted
because of his/her duties as a law enforcement officer.
__________________
misconduct
generally."

misconduct.
07-06-2006 05:00 PM
Rylan I commented on it here: A Look At Police Officer Deaths In

Senior Member 2006

Location: __________________
Posts: 931 Are you a gleaming hypocrite? Do you lack intelligence, ambition, and respect for
the State!
07-06-2006 05:07 PM


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COPWATCH.com Forum - Police: 54 guns found in teen's home
COPWATCH.com Forum > NEWS SECTION > News: PROPAGANDA > Police: 54 guns
found in teen's home
Pages (2): [1] 2 » Last Thread Next Thread
Author Thread
JmE Police: 54 guns found in teen's home

Senior Member
CNN: Police: 54 guns found in teen's home
quote:
Location: Directly behind you
Posts: 861 Police: 54 guns found in teen's home
David Ludwig charged with killing girlfriend's parents
Friday, November 18, 2005; Posted: 1:46 a.m. EST

(06:46 GMT)
LITITZ, Pennsylvania (AP) -- Police seized 54 guns
from the home of an 18-year-old man charged
with killing his girlfriend's parents and fleeing the
state with her, according to court documents filed
Thursday.
http://www.copwatch.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11477&perpage=20&pagenumber=1 (1 of 16)7/12/2010 12:01:38 AM

Warwick Township police removed the collection of

rifles, shotguns, handguns and ammunition Sunday
from the home where suspect David Ludwig lived with
his parents. The search occurred as police were still
trying to find him and 14-year-old Kara Beth Borden.
Ludwig was being held without bail on murder and

kidnapping charges after being flown back to
Pennsylvania on Tuesday from Indiana, where police
captured him following a chase.
Police allege Ludwig shot Michael and Cathryn Borden

on Sunday at their home in Lititz following an argument
over his relationship with Kara. The two had been
dating, apparently secretly, according to friends and
witnesses. (Watch video on the teens' secret lives --
2:34)
Ludwig was arrested Monday after crashing his parents'

car into a tree in Belleville, Indiana, about 600 miles
from the murder scene, during a police chase. Neither
Ludwig nor the girl, who has not been charged, was
injured in the crash. (See map of teens trail)
Investigators have said they are treating Kara Borden

as a victim but that the investigation is continuing.
Ludwig's parents, Gregory and Jane Ludwig, issued a

statement Wednesday expressing their sorrow over the
slayings but have not spoken publicly. They have not
returned multiple phone messages seeking comment.
It was unclear whether the confiscated weapons

belonged to Ludwig or his parents.
David Ludwig apparently was an avid hunter and

posted 20 pictures labeled "Hunting 2004" on a Web
site that included an image of him posing with freshly
killed deer.
Neither of Ludwig's parents is licensed as a

firearms dealer or collector, according to the
national licensing center of the federal Bureau of
Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.
Police were not immediately available Thursday to

comment on the search. Lancaster County District
Attorney Donald Totaro declined to comment, and
attorneys for Ludwig did not immediately return
telephone calls seeking comment.
The Bordens were each shot once in the head with what
authorities said was probably a .40-caliber handgun.

If convicted, Ludwig could face life in prison. The

prosecutor in the case said he's still trying to decide
whether to pursue the death penalty.
(Emphasis added)
Since when does privately owning 54 firearms require an FFL or a

collector's license?
In regards to RKBA, I detect some anti-gun media spin/fear
propaganda/misinformation in this story.
__________________
Then, Sir, we will give them the bayonet! -- General Thomas
"Stonewall" Jackson
Coimhead fearg fhear na foighde ~ (Beware the anger of a
patient man) - Irish/Gaelic phrase
<Insert stupid/oppressive swine comment here. It doesn't matter as it all is the
same BS.> -- Typical LE Copscum
To the point, I hate LE. Clear enough? -- JmE
I respectfully dissent without further mooting cum hoc ergo propter hoc
distinction of inalienable rights based upon genotype of any H. s. sapiens. --
JmE, 'Heinz 57'
Inspiration & Hope:

"G_d, I know, will provide," sighed one disconsolate Jew. "I only wish He would
provide until He provides."
There is nothing new under the Sun.
11-18-2005 01:46 PM
The Chief I also have no idea as to why owning 54 guns requires a license of
Senior Member sorts.
It may be that after a certain number it's considered an arsenal of
weapons. Or possibly that some of the 54 guns were automatics or
had an assault ban on them, where you wouldn't own them.
Registered: Nov 2005 Just the same however, he has been charged with murder. If he
Location: had access to the weapons, and used the weapons, a felon can't
Posts: 283 own or use a weapon, they would indeed be taken away.
There most likely is a little media spin on the article, but it still
stands a felon can't own a gun.
__________________
One out of five people have a mental illness. Think of your 4 closest
friends, if they're fine...
You have it

11-20-2005 09:00 PM
L.E. Hero Cheif, surely you know that this was a Juvenile.
Senior Member
An Automatic?
Location: Virginia I don't think you are the police sweetheart.
Posts: 447
__________________
Formerly "God Cop"
11-20-2005 10:57 PM
JmE quote:
Senior Member
Originally posted by The Chief
<cut>
There most likely is a little media spin on the
Registered: Aug 2005 article, but it still stands a felon can't own a gun.
Posts: 861
I honestly do not see anywhere in the article where they mention

that the parents are felons or the the teen was a convicted felon. If
I missed it, please point it out to me. I would appreciate it.
__________________
"Stonewall" Jackson
JmE, 'Heinz 57'
Inspiration & Hope:

11-21-2005 03:23 AM

JmE quote:
Senior Member
<cut>
Or possibly that some of the 54 guns were
Registered: Aug 2005 automatics
Location: Directly behind you <cut>
Posts: 861
I am sure that if there were untaxed NFA weapons in the 54, it

WOULD have been included in the story.... thus, I don't buy into
that speculation.
Even then, a collector's license would not cover NFA weapons.

Likewise an FFL would not cover untaxed NFA weapons unless the
parent(s) were gunsmith(s)... in which case I would have expected
that to be reported in the story. The jack booted thugs reported NO
collector's license and NO FFL.
It was media propaganda, pure and simple IMHO.
__________________
"Stonewall" Jackson
JmE, 'Heinz 57'
Inspiration & Hope:

11-21-2005 03:29 AM

JmE quote:
Senior Member
<cut>
Just the same however, he has been charged with
Registered: Aug 2005 murder. If he had access to the weapons, and
Location: Directly behind you used the weapons, a felon can't own or use a
Posts: 861 weapon, they would indeed be taken away.
<cut>
Am I missing it in the article or at the time it was written he was

NOT convicted of anything and his parents are not reported as
being felons.
So is this suspect a felon before a trial? What happened to due

process before calling him or anyone else a felon?
__________________
"Stonewall" Jackson
JmE, 'Heinz 57'
Inspiration & Hope:

11-21-2005 03:32 AM
The Chief quote:

Senior Member
Originally posted by JmE
Am I missing it in the article or at the time it was
written he was NOT convicted of anything and his
Registered: Nov 2005 parents are not reported as being felons.
Location:
Posts: 283 So is this suspect a felon before a trial? What
happened to due process before calling him or
anyone else a felon?

I'm sure there is more to this story than just this little snippet of
article. Just the same, from what I got out of the article, the
handgun used to commit the murders was recovered with the cache
of weapons. That may make the weapons evidence, making them
the state's property. But, I'm not familiar with that state's laws and
would need more info on the whole situation to give a clearer cut
answer.
And LE, 18 isn't a minor. 18 year olds can't own hanguns though.
"Police seized 54 guns from the home of an 18-year-old man
charged with killing his girlfriend's parents and fleeing the state
with her, according to court documents filed Thursday."
__________________
You have it
11-21-2005 10:31 AM
JmE quote:
Senior Member
I'm sure there is more to this story than just this
little snippet of article. Just the same, from what
Registered: Aug 2005 I got out of the article, the handgun used to
Location: Directly behind you commit the murders was recovered with the
Posts: 861 cache of weapons. That may make the weapons
evidence, making them the state's property. But,
I'm not familiar with that state's laws and would
need more info on the whole situation to give a
clearer cut answer.
<cut>
I love y'alls useage of the word 'cache'. LOL
Of course there is more to this story than just this article. However,
we are discussing this article. Please attempt to stay with the topic
and by all means, please at least try to answer my questions
directly if you wish to address them. So far you have not directly
done so.
__________________
"Stonewall" Jackson


JmE, 'Heinz 57'
Inspiration & Hope:

11-21-2005 10:54 AM
JmE quote:
Senior Member
<cut> That may make the weapons evidence,
making them the state's property. But, I'm not
Registered: Aug 2005 familiar with that state's laws and would need
Location: Directly behind you more info on the whole situation to give a clearer
Posts: 861 cut answer.
<cut>
Here again, and correct me if I am missing it, but you were the one
referring to the suspect/charged individual and/or his parent(s) as
felon(s)... NOT the article.
Where is that stated in the posted article?
__________________
"Stonewall" Jackson
JmE, 'Heinz 57'
Inspiration & Hope:


11-21-2005 10:58 AM
The Chief Well, what questions do you have then?

Senior Member
"Since when does privately owning 54 firearms require an FFL or a
collector's license?"
Registered: Nov 2005 I'm sure I already answered that one.

Location:
Posts: 283 And as to this one:
"So is this suspect a felon before a trial? What happened to due

process before calling him or anyone else a felon?"
I answered that also, since an 18 year old can't possess a hand-

gun. It also needs to be determined if any of the other 54 weapons
were used in the crime or another murder. By that murder weapon
being a part of the collection of weapons, those weapons become
evidence.
Not satisfied? Ask me another.
__________________
You have it
11-21-2005 10:59 AM
JmE quote:
Senior Member
Well, what questions do you have then?
Registered: Aug 2005 "Since when does privately owning 54 firearms

Location: Directly behind you require an FFL or a collector's license?"
Posts: 861
I'm sure I already answered that one.
And as to this one:
"So is this suspect a felon before a trial? What

happened to due process before calling him or
anyone else a felon?"
I answered that also, since an 18 year old can't

possess a hand-gun. It also needs to be
determined if any of the other 54 weapons were
used in the crime or another murder. By that
murder weapon being a part of the collection of

weapons, those weapons become evidence.

Not satisfied? Ask me another.
Yes, you 'sort of answered' the first question, but continued on with
more speculation and gratuitous assertions. Thus arose more
questions.
As far as an 18 y/o in possession of a handgun, he had not been
to trial at the time of the article so where do you get off calling him
or his parents felons? What proof from the article?
Do you understand due process?
As for restating the questions... they are in the thread. Find them
and answer them directly or do not. It is your choice. I am not
going to waste my time assisting you with remedial literacy.
__________________
"Stonewall" Jackson
JmE, 'Heinz 57'
Inspiration & Hope:

11-21-2005 11:15 AM
The Chief You're not getting the handgun part. It was used in a murder, and it
Senior Member then became state's property. If it was found with the other
weapons, they too can be taken as evidence. The small article isn't
much for anyone to go on, so that's why I give you theories as
answers, sinc ethe real ones won't be known without more
Registered: Nov 2005 information.
Location:
Posts: 283
__________________
You have it

11-21-2005 11:31 AM
JmE quote:
Senior Member
You're not getting the handgun part. It was used
in a murder, and it then became state's property.
Registered: Aug 2005 If it was found with the other weapons, they too
Location: Directly behind you can be taken as evidence. The small article isn't
Posts: 861 much for anyone to go on, so that's why I give
you theories as answers, sinc ethe real ones
won't be known without more information.
I did get your point the first time.
My question was "How can you call the suspect/charged

individual and/or his parent(s) felons before trial?"
In the article we are discussing, has he or have they been

found guilty through due process at that point? NO!
Therefore, from whence does this "felon' label you used
come?
I understand about removing firearms during and investigation (I

don't personally or politically agree with it, but understand the legal
underpinnings of the action). THAT was not the question!
__________________
"Stonewall" Jackson
JmE, 'Heinz 57'
Inspiration & Hope:

11-21-2005 11:38 AM

The Chief I called the kid a felon, since that's what he now is. Did he not flee
Senior Member the state after criminal allegations were alleged on him? Does that
not make him a fugitive/felon, since he did run? I'm pretty sure it
does, hence, felon.
Registered: Nov 2005 __________________

Location:
Posts: 283
You have it
11-21-2005 11:46 AM
JmE quote:
Senior Member
I called the kid a felon, since that's what he now
is. Did he not flee the state after criminal
Registered: Aug 2005 allegations were alleged on him? Does that not
Location: Directly behind you make him a fugitive/felon, since he did run? I'm
Posts: 861 pretty sure it does, hence, felon.
Perhaps you are correct.
However, was he found guilty in absentia? If not, he is still not a

felon until he has been afforded due process; flight or no flight.
Often times people that take flight are called ‘felons’ when in reality
they are suspects in flight from felony charges. In such cases, a
warrant is often issued and then the case is heard. They are not
automatically felons until they are found guilty (and that can be in
absentia, but there is no indication of that in the article). Hence, I
believe your post was jumping around due process.
Aren’t you supposed to know at least a little about these things as a

requirement of your ‘job’?
Nowhere in the article do I read that he was found guilty of

anything.
Also, how are the parents automatically felons by your post and
from the information given in the article?
Hopefully someone with more legal knowledge than either of us can

jump in and clarify.
__________________
"Stonewall" Jackson


JmE, 'Heinz 57'
Inspiration & Hope:

11-21-2005 11:58 AM
JmE Hey L.E. Hero, Matt1, Navy, etc...

Senior Member
Please jump in on my comment regarding felon vs. flight from
felony charge(s) if you have a definitive answer (hopefully with
some links.)
Location: Directly behind you To the rest, please do not flame them if they do respond on this
Posts: 861 one...
Posts from attorneys might be nice to clarify this question as well.
__________________
"Stonewall" Jackson
JmE, 'Heinz 57'
Inspiration & Hope:

11-21-2005 12:07 PM

JmE Please allow me to clarify my take on this whole "flight=felon"

Senior Member statement.
I did not read in the article where the suspect/charged individual

had been arraigned, arrested, or even interviewed by LE before the
Registered: Aug 2005 alleged 'flight'.
Posts: 861 As such, how can he be labeled a felon based upon details the
article posted unless he is found guilty in absentia?
From my viewpoint, it is incorrect to call the suspect/charged

individual a felon based upon the posted article.
__________________
"Stonewall" Jackson
JmE, 'Heinz 57'
Inspiration & Hope:

11-21-2005 02:02 PM
L.E. Hero quote:

Senior Member
Cheif, surely you know that this was a Juvenile.
Location: Virginia An Automatic?
Posts: 447
Just a little sarcasm Chief. The media refers to adults as

teens and semi-automatic firearms as automatics.
JME, I think "convicted felon" are the two important words here
I don't see convicted felon anywhere in the article. Fleeing felon is

sometimes used when describing someone who has committed a
felony and is trying to elude capture. It doesn't neccessarily reflect
the person's prior convictions.

__________________
Formerly "God Cop"
11-21-2005 02:54 PM
JmE quote:
Senior Member
Originally posted by L.E. Hero
Just a little sarcasm Chief. The media refers to
adults as
Registered: Aug 2005 teens and semi-automatic firearms as automatics.
Posts: 861 JME, I think "convicted felon" are the two
important words here
I don't see convicted felon anywhere in the

article. Fleeing felon is sometimes used when
describing someone who has committed a felony
and is trying to elude capture. It doesn't
neccessarily reflect the person's prior convictions.
I was referring to the Doughnut Chef's calling the suspect/charged

individual and/or his parent(s) felon(s). Until they are found as such
through due process, they are NOT felons. He was referring to them
not being able to own firearms because they are felons. They would
have to be CONVICTED for that to be true. So, using your own
semantics, he was implying convicted felon as he was attributing
a disability to own firearms before the fact.
You knew what I meant as I was very clear about it. :sniper:
__________________
"Stonewall" Jackson
JmE, 'Heinz 57'
Inspiration & Hope:


11-22-2005 04:40 PM
The Chief How about this then:

Senior Member
The weapons were taken as evidence in relation to the shootings.
Can it be that simple enough? I think it can.
Registered: Nov 2005 __________________

Location: One out of five people have a mental illness. Think of your 4 closest
Posts: 283
You have it
11-23-2005 01:33 AM

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COPWATCH.com Forum > NEWS SECTION > News: PROPAGANDA > Police: 54 guns
found in teen's home
Pages (2): « 1 [2] Last Thread Next Thread
Author Thread
JmE quote:
Senior Member
How about this then:
Registered: Aug 2005 The weapons were taken as evidence in relation

Location: Directly behind you to the shootings. Can it be that simple enough? I
Posts: 861 think it can.
You still have not answered. It would be a lie, of course, but...
__________________
"Stonewall" Jackson


JmE, 'Heinz 57'
Inspiration & Hope:

11-23-2005 02:38 AM
JmE quote:
Senior Member
Originally posted by L.E. Hero
<cut>
Fleeing felon is sometimes used when describing
Registered: Aug 2005 someone who has committed a felony and is
Location: Directly behind you trying to elude capture. It doesn't neccessarily
Posts: 861 reflect the person's prior convictions.
Actually, no... a suspect (or individual) that is not yet a convicted

felon fleeing (or simply leaving) an area is NOT a fleeing felon. They
are a suspect (or individual) fleeing (or simply leaving) an area at
which a felony may have been comitted.
A person is not a felon, fleeing or not, without due process. Any

other usage is contrary to freedom: presumption of guilt before
innocence and lack of due process.
Chasing and apprehending does not automatically make an

individual a felon without due process.
__________________
"Stonewall" Jackson
JmE, 'Heinz 57'

Inspiration & Hope:

11-23-2005 02:45 AM
JmE quote:
Senior Member
<cut>
There most likely is a little media spin on the
Registered: Aug 2005 article, but it still stands a felon can't own a gun.
Posts: 861
This is not spam. I am posting it in case you conveniently 'forgot'

what you originally posted and that which we were discussing.
__________________
"Stonewall" Jackson
JmE, 'Heinz 57'
Inspiration & Hope:

11-23-2005 02:53 AM

The Chief quote:

Senior Member
Originally posted by JmE
Actually, no... a suspect (or individual) that is not
yet a convicted felon fleeing (or simply leaving)
Registered: Nov 2005 an area is NOT a fleeing felon. They are a suspect
Location: (or individual) fleeing (or simply leaving) an area
Posts: 283 at which a felony may have been comitted.
A person is not a felon, fleeing or not, without

due process. Any other usage is contrary to
freedom: presumption of guilt before innocence
and lack of due process.
Chasing and apprehending does not automatically

make an individual a felon without due process.
Actually, you're wrong. Up till around the late seventies, we had a

shoot to kill (option) on fleeing felons. Cops were allowed to shoot
people that were running that just committed a felony in their
presence. I'm not sure if the law still stand though in other states,
Wisconsin got rid of it in the 70's. But, a person running can indeed
be a fleeing felon, due process or not.
Until they are proven innocent, they are suspected of having
committed the crime. Otherwise, until proven guilty, a person
wouldn't be put in handcuffs or booked, as they would have done
no crime yet.
And yes, I do know what I said from before, and what we are
discussing.
__________________
You have it
11-23-2005 06:01 AM

JmE quote:
Senior Member
Actually, you're wrong. Up till around the late
seventies, we had a shoot to kill (option) on
Registered: Aug 2005 fleeing felons. Cops were allowed to shoot people
Location: Directly behind you that were running that just committed a felony in
Posts: 861 their presence. I'm not sure if the law still stand
though in other states, Wisconsin got rid of it in
the 70's. But, a person running can indeed be a
fleeing felon, due process or not.
Until they are proven innocent, they are
suspected of having committed the crime.
Otherwise, until proven guilty, a person wouldn't
be put in handcuffs or booked, as they would
have done no crime yet.
And yes, I do know what I said from before, and
what we are discussing.
And yet you still do not answer the question... LOL
__________________
"Stonewall" Jackson
JmE, 'Heinz 57'
Inspiration & Hope:

11-23-2005 06:25 AM

The Chief Ahh, what is the question?

Senior Member
__________________
Registered: Nov 2005 You have it
Location:
Posts: 283
11-23-2005 06:27 AM
L.E. Hero quote:

Senior Member
Actually, you're wrong. Up till around the late
Registered: Jul 2005 seventies, we had a shoot to kill (option) on fleeing
Location: Virginia felons. Cops were allowed to shoot people that were
Posts: 447 running that just committed a felony in their presence.
I'm not sure if the law still stand though in other states,
Wisconsin got rid of it in the 70's. But, a person running
can indeed be a fleeing felon, due process or not.
Until they are proven innocent, they are suspected of
having committed the crime. Otherwise, until proven
guilty, a person wouldn't be put in handcuffs or booked,
as they would have done no crime yet.
And yes, I do know what I said from before, and what
we are discussing.
This is true. Generally, the fleeing felon rule applies to someone

who is suspected of committing a felony and fleeing. In order to
meet the criteria to shoot this person(even in the back)the officer
has to be able to articulate that by allowing this person to elude
capture that he will possibly kill or seriously injure someone.
Example. You get a call for gunshotwound. You arrive on scene to

find an armed person shoot TWO people. As he runs away he yells
"I am going to kill all people by shooting them".
This means the officer can shoot the guy in the back if neccessary.
Tenesse vs. Garner.
Mandatory case law in my opinion.
__________________
Formerly "God Cop"

11-23-2005 01:19 PM
JmE However, it still did not answer the question at hand. The question
Senior Member relies on the context, not just one word... ie Felon.
I want to see the slippery little nazi liar answer it directly. It is his
choice to do so or not.
Location: Directly behind you __________________
Posts: 861
"Stonewall" Jackson
JmE, 'Heinz 57'
Inspiration & Hope:

11-23-2005 01:42 PM
Navigatr1 Moderator Note:

Extended Sabatical JmE, please stop the name calling and keep the discussion civil.
There is some intelligent discussion going on, and I want to keep it
that way. However, this thread is getting dangerously close to being
closed as it is starting to become non-constructive.
Location: --Navigatr1
Posts: 31403
__________________
I am not a Lawyer. My opinions are my own, and not necessarily those of the
owners of this board. Articles posted on this board by me, or other members, are
merely a collection of publicly published articles on the internet that are
conveniently posted in one place. The purpose of the articles is accountability for
too often law enforcement officers just get a slap on the wrist. The use of these
articles is for non-profit use, as well as educational and historical purposes.
Paraphrasing Maureen Kanka: "You got to be able to tell the children who the bad
guys are."
From the movie "V for Vendetta:

"People shouldn't be afraid of their government, governments should be afraid of
their people."
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots
and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson, letter to to William Smith; Paris, November
13, 1787

11-24-2005 12:05 AM
JmE quote:
Senior Member
Originally posted by Navigatr1
Moderator Note:
JmE, please stop the name calling and keep the
Registered: Aug 2005 discussion civil. There is some intelligent
Location: Directly behind you discussion going on, and I want to keep it that
Posts: 861 way. However, this thread is getting dangerously
close to being closed as it is starting to become
non-constructive.
--Navigatr1
Yes sir, Nav! Thanks for the fair warning.
(I honestly forgot we were in the 'News' section.)
__________________
"Stonewall" Jackson
JmE, 'Heinz 57'
Inspiration & Hope:

11-24-2005 12:38 AM


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COPWATCH.com Forum - 911
COPWATCH.com Forum > NEWS SECTION > News: PROPAGANDA > 911
Author Thread
xtratabasco 911
Senior Member
This is a 24/7 Internet radio program that only discusses 9-11.

Registered: Jul 2004 You know the 911 that gave us the fake war on terror.
Location:
Posts: 2869 It contains dozens and dozens of guests, such as experts,
witnesses, politicians, police and firemen, engineers and
chemists. It is a must listen too web site and link access to
the "designed 911" that the government gave us.
There are hundreds of people dedicated to the truth and pulling

the curtain down on the government lies of 911. They have given
there time, money, reputations, and in some cases their lives
have been threatened.
Please give this link a chance to give you something the main
stream media wont...The truth.

Cant you give an hour or two too listen to the truth.
http://www.911truthradio.com/
Yes its disturbing..........and if you can stand tall, it will change

your life forever.
11-06-2004 12:43 AM
monaliveson ok, I took the bait and listened. What a crock of s h i t. They think
Movin' on (B) the planes that hit the towers were holograms???? I noticed you are
from Colorado........is there something in the water there because
you sound as looney as dumbcan.
Registered: Oct 2004 I love how this site will on one hand call the gov't dumb and full of
Location: idiots yet they are smart enough to pull off these huge
Posts: 423 stories...........oh please.........give it up already.
11-06-2004 01:09 AM
xtratabasco 1,000 reward

Senior Member
I will give you 1,000 or anybody a 1,000 reward for pictures of

Registered: Jul 2004 the 757 plane the government says hit the Pentagon.
Location:
Posts: 2869
1,000.
reply when you have them and I will give you 1,000.
Until that keep sucking the governments dck
11-06-2004 01:15 AM
monaliveson I am sure you enjoy getting your dick suck now dont ya????
Movin' on (B)
You probably don't even have 1000 bucks fool. And I know what
you are talking about. I think about everyone has seen that site
with the video on the pentagon.
Location: I don't think we will know everything about that day as I myself
Posts: 423 often wonder if a fighter jet took down that plane in PA vs the
passengers. But our country was under attack and was not
prepared so I am sure many mistakes occured but it was panic...it
happens. If the gov't had to make the decision to take out a US
plane to protect those on the ground etc, then so be it. War is not
nice and people die.

911 was not faked....the terrorist have no problem telling everyone

either. As for the pentagon.....I will say there is some question
there. But I think it is probably a military mistake and those do not
always get broadcasted. (lets see mr military duncan defend that
one when he attacks cops all the time). It is possible a fighter jet
went to fire on something and hit the pentagon by mistake.
Terrible, yes, does it make our gov't evil, no. Considering
everything going on that day I think our country did a pretty good
job of gaining control back. I mean hell, I didn't think they could
get that many planes back to the ground that fast, it had never
been done. But they did it. Hopefully we are better prepared today
to handle attacks. Remember, it was the first attack on our land
since Pearl Harbor by outsiders. We were not ready, plain and
simple.
11-06-2004 01:59 AM
xtratabasco 1,000 reward, no 2,000 reward

Senior Member
Pearl Harbor was not a surprise either. lol

Location: since your so keen on "whats going on" I will double it too a
Posts: 2869
2,000 reward, in honor of you!
take it up. its gotta be better than sucking bushs(governments)

stick.
Cop or not. You are a groveler, prue and simple.
11-06-2004 02:07 AM
monaliveson Well you made your point......you are an idiot. Go play your games
Movin' on (B) some place else, or play with dumbcan.

Location:
Posts: 423
11-06-2004 02:19 AM

xtratabasco lol/groveler
Senior Member
Location:
Posts: 2869
11-06-2004 02:23 AM
GOD COP A hologram? First time I have heard that one. I do beleive that a
Senior Member military plane could have taken down that jetliner.
__________________
You have the right to reman silent. That means shut-up.

Location:
Posts: 1309
11-06-2004 02:22 PM
monaliveson yeah, xt posted this url to this radio station and I went and listend
Movin' on (B) and that happend to be that days topic. Can only imagine what else
they talk about.......maybe it was purple people eaters that
attacked us.
Registered: Oct 2004 I also would not be surpised if we took down the jetliner or mis
Location: fired a missle.......war is not perfect.
Posts: 423
11-06-2004 10:14 PM

duncan be like the passengers mona and use your cell phone dial 911 and
Moderator die
Registered: Jul 2003 __________________

Location: Ft. Collins, Colorado "I would rather die on my feet fighting rather than live to grovel on my knees." -
Posts: 9017 General Zapata
"Our state and local law enforcement officers do not operate as "secret police"
whose names are exempt from public disclosure." - Washington State Court of
Appeals
A fella told me once "You can attract more flies to honey than you can to
vinegar." My response was "That maybe so, but flies are also attracted to sh*t." -
Duncan
"I am now waiting patiently, if not cheerfully, for the last bugle call, confident
that when at last my name is called, I can answer clearly: 'Here!'" - Cpl John
Wesley Minnich, C.S.A.
"Where is the Coast Guard

I keep looking each direction
For a spotlight, give me something
I need something for protection
Maybe flotsam junk will do just fine
the jetsam sunk, I'm left behind
I'm treading for my life believe me" - Blue October
11-20-2004 12:05 PM
The Chief Oh man, nice try on rewriting history here. You actually believe a
Senior Member hologram hit the Pentagon?
You're nuttier than squirrel terds, and so is everyone that believes

it. And let me guess, a hologram hit the WTC too?
Registered: Nov 2005
Location: Gotta love conspiracy theorists, they're always good for a few laughs
Posts: 283
__________________
You have it
11-16-2005 07:29 AM

xtratabasco quote:
Senior Member
Registered: Jul 2004 Oh man, nice try on rewriting history here. You
Location: actually believe a hologram hit the Pentagon?
Posts: 2869
You're nuttier than squirrel terds, and so is
everyone that believes it. And let me guess, a
hologram hit the WTC too?
Gotta love conspiracy theorists, they're always

good for a few laughs
did you listen to the show, no you didnt you posted from mona the
resident troll. LOL
Just another piq troll.
11-16-2005 10:19 AM
The Chief It's tough to listen, when the site was "Shut down" and the link to
Senior Member the sound doesn't work. But that's my fault for not listening right?
Just take a step back xtra and think about what you're saying... A
hologram hit the Pentagon.
Registered: Nov 2005 I broad daylight...
Location: Have you been to DC?
Posts: 283 If you have, and had seen the Pentagon, you'd see the freeway
right there. Most of the witnesses came from that freeway. It's hard
to miss a 757 hitting the Pentagon.
The same plane that left this wreckage:
http://photos1.blogger.com/img/115/...20on%20lawn.jpg
Which just so happens to be parts of the same plane that was taken
over by terrorists. But, you must believe the plane was dismantled
in the sky by aliens, and dropped on the Pentagon lawn by Bush
himself.
You conspiracy Theories have more holes than swiss cheese
__________________
You have it

11-16-2005 06:39 PM
kodiak
Senior Member
if your really a christian cop,then you should beable to think for
Registered: Nov 2005 yourself.the problem is that people take everything the news media
Location:
Posts: 189
an govt says as gospel truth. go to jack mclambs website and get
the truth--that is if you are a real christian and not by title only.
11-16-2005 09:25 PM
xtratabasco quote:
Senior Member
Originally posted by kodiak
Registered: Jul 2004 if your really a christian cop,then you should
Location: beable to think for yourself.the problem is that
Posts: 2869 people take everything the news media an govt
says as gospel truth. go to jack mclambs website
and get the truth--that is if you are a real
christian and not by title only.
The chief thinks Jack is Bull ****. but who gives a rats ass what
this fake christian child molester thinks.
http://www.copwatch.net/forums/show...54357#post54357
quote:Originally posted by The Chief

And this forum is for recognition of good cops...
Not ex-cops that worked as crooked politicians
Now get out of here, scram you dirty varmin!
well it came from Jack mcLamb Americas most decortated cop's

website.
http://www.patriotamerica.com/JackMcLamb/JackMcLamb.htm
Most Highly Decorated Lawman
Military Veteran
Nationally Respected Constitutional Lecturer

Arizona Regional Police Academy Instructor
Hostage Negotiator for FBI
President of
The American Citizens & Lawmen Association
Author, Publisher
of Aid & Abet Police and Military Newsletter
But your right. I forgot that all cops are Nazis and all cops who say
they are Christians are maggots in Gods eyes.
Because we all know that cops are criminals and liars.
11-16-2005 09:32 PM
The Chief quote:

Senior Member
Originally posted by kodiak
if your really a christian cop,then you should
beable to think for yourself.the problem is that
Registered: Nov 2005 people take everything the news media an govt
Location: says as gospel truth. go to jack mclambs website
Posts: 283 and get the truth--that is if you are a real
christian and not by title only.
I make my own mind up on many issues. I hardly believe what the

media says, which is why I hardly link in in my posts.
As for Jack Mclamb, I just stoped at the website. Again, I'll just say:
Conspiracy Theory. Some of it has a basis, but most line of
thoughts lead in the wrong direction. A direction that to usually
points to political wrongdoings and coverups. I think the guy is
entitled to his opinion, as are you. If you ask me though, I'll say
your opinion is wrong. You'd say the same for mine. But, mine has
a little more basis and widespread acceptance. An opinion can't be
wrong, just the facts someone uses to back it up with.
__________________
You have it

11-17-2005 02:08 AM
xtratabasco quote:
Senior Member
Registered: Jul 2004 I make my own mind up on many issues. I hardly
Location: believe what the media says, which is why I
Posts: 2869 hardly link in in my posts.
As for Jack Mclamb, I just stoped at the website.

Again, I'll just say: Conspiracy Theory. Some of it
has a basis, but most line of thoughts lead in the
wrong direction. A direction that to usually points
to political wrongdoings and coverups. I think the
guy is entitled to his opinion, as are you. If you
ask me though, I'll say your opinion is wrong.
You'd say the same for mine. But, mine has a
little more basis and widespread acceptance. An
opinion can't be wrong, just the facts someone
uses to back it up with.
the fact is your a hypocrit...
cop chaplin....LOL
melt
Senior Member
Location: Now Golfing in Sunny Charleston SC and writing my
future award winning novel
Posts: 188
Greetings I was the victim of Chicago Police Misconduct I was
recently falsely arrested, tortured, beat and verbally abused by
Officer Alvarez of the 24th District Chicago IL. The married Officer
Alvarez was having an affair with my girlfriend and the two of them
set me up on 1/27/05. The bogus charges against me were dropped
and the OPS of Chicago is conducting an Internal Affairs
investigation. I decided to join this site and encourage all of those
who are victims of police misconduct, and those people who are
just fed up with police corruption going unpunished, to do the
following.

Unless for some reason the cop is havign sex with her on duty, he's
not breakign any laws.

Your wife came to her senses, she left a cop-hater and, sleeps with
a cop.
Good girl
The Chief
Senior Member

Location:
Posts: 153
Key word here "former". He isn't a cop anymore for a reason, so,
he's an average @sshole joe like yourself.
The Chief
Senior Member

Location:
Posts: 153
And I bet that chick is a great lay, too bad we got her now
The Chief
Senior Member

Location:
Posts: 151
But every call the PD gets has to be taken seriously.

The Chief
Senior Member

Location:
Posts: 151
I'm guessign you're talking about Terri Schiavo. I agree she

should've died. What more of a waste of money is that.

It's not without evidence totally, it's reasonable suspicion. What is
reasonable? That up to the arresting officer to determine. I make
arrests without evidence all the time.
The Chief
Senior Member

Location:
Posts: 149
Cops don't work... they just drive around all day cause they want
too, they pull people over at will for speeding, and collect the city
money for no reason whatsoever.
The Chief
Senior Member

Location:
Posts: 153

I can't wait for the day you just have an accident, sticking up for
your so called rights dumbcan. "I'll carry an uzi to the PD, you
gonna stop me piq???"
One shot inbetween your eyes. That'll fix your views right up.
The Chief
Senior Member

Location:
Posts: 148
What do you know, the gun ban passed. Great news.
The Chief
Senior Member

Location:
Posts: 152
Yeah duncan, glad to see your bltch ass posting in it.
Blessed
"Blessed are the peacekeepers: for they shall be called the children
of God." Matthew 5:9
http://www.christianlawenforcement.com/
A great site for all those cops out there that want a greater
understanding in their profound benefits to the world.

I am christian, not Catholic. In the days Jesus was on earth to

preach god's laws, there weren't feeding tubes and ventaliators.
I see it as letting nature run it's course. I'm in training right now to
become a Police Chaplain, a very rewarding job.
You are a phoney christian, a hypocrit. You aid and abet child
molesters and murders, you are the worst of the sinners. You steal
from hard working people and take freedom from innocent people.
You lie and take innocent people to prison and jail. You hurt old
people and kill others. You are a traitor to this country.
go fuqk yourself you anti-freedom Nazi.
11-17-2005 03:06 AM
The Chief Great, another canned copy and paste response.

Senior Member
I'm no hippocrit, please explain to me where I am so I can better
clarify that fact for your dum@ss.
Registered: Nov 2005 __________________

Location: One out of five people have a mental illness. Think of your 4 closest
Posts: 283
You have it
11-17-2005 05:06 AM

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COPWATCH.com Forum - Heres my response to your Jan. 13 2005 column in the Aspen Daily.
COPWATCH.com Forum > NEWS SECTION > News: PROPAGANDA > Heres my response to your
Jan. 13 2005 column in the Aspen Daily.
Author Thread
xtratabasco Heres my response to your Jan. 13 2005 column in the Aspen Daily.
Senior Member
Lynn Burton,
Location: I'm not a huge fan of the ACLU, but anyone with a brain should be able to see that
Posts: 2869
our country is in big, big trouble. Most of our rights have been eliminated. Freedom
is a thing of the past.
You must be living under a rock if you feel our fundamental freedoms are not at
risk by out
of control government officials. In fact we are no longer free. We are living in a
Police State.
Heres my response to your Jan. 13 2005 column in the Aspen Daily. Your original
is included.
Where is the Police State? Its right here! Open your eyes!
"Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept

or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory
identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part
of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of

government."
Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long."
Congressman Ron Paul, Aug 9, 2004
......We are now living in a police state.....................
Boston Globe
We're slowly becoming a police state

January 14, 2005
THE ACTIONS of the state troopers in Truro to obtain DNA samples from motorists
is just another example of how we are slowly sliding toward a police state ("Police
seek DNA samples in 2002 Truro slaying," Page A1, Jan. 8).
Not only were the police stopping motorists with the request for a sample, but the
license numbers of all the people they approached were taken. District Attorney
Michael O'Keefe said that authorities would be compelled to look at those who
refuse to give a sample.
Unfortunately, O'Keefe, in his frustration at solving the crime, has endorsed a

dangerous extension of police power, providing another unfortunate example of the
extent to which citizens are being asked to surrender their basic privacy.
ARNOLD KOCH
Melrose
....................................................................................
Man Goes to Jail for Puting a Sign in his Yard
WAFF | April 2 2004
"You can look through 'em all."
Up to his ears in legal documents, Phillip Dean is fed up with the judicial system.
"That's the kind of court system we've got in Jackson County, Alabama and I want
everybody to know," Dean says.
So he put a sign in his front lawn saying "Our Court System Is a Joke."
A message landing him behind bars.
"I was in a cell about four foot wide and six foot long and nothing in it but a toilet,"
he explains.
Arrest orders signed by Judge Haralson claim Dean to be in direct contempt of

court, even though the sign is on County Road 107, not in the county courthouse.
"The signs were so derogatory to the court they could not be ignored," Haralson
responds in a local paper.
With Dean locked up, the signs were removed.
"Before they would let me go in front of Judge Haralson," Dean says. "They put leg
shackles, they put handcuffs, they put chains from my legs up to my waist. they
put a chain around my waist. they put chains from my waist up here and had my
hands pulled up like this."

"When it gets to where a man hadn't got any free speech in this world, what has
he got?" he asks.
.......................................................................................
Reuters
Oregon Law Would Jail War Protesters as Terrorists
By Lee Douglas
PORTLAND, Oregon (Reuters) - An Oregon anti-terrorism bill would jail street-
blocking protesters for at least 25 years in a thinly veiled effort to discourage anti-
war demonstrations, critics say.
Dubbed Senate Bill 742, it identifies a terrorist as a person who "plans or

participates in an act that is intended, by at least one of its participants, to disrupt"
business, transportation, schools, government, or free assembly.
The bill's few public supporters say police need stronger laws to break up protests
that have created havoc in cities like Portland, where thousands of people have
marched and demonstrated against war in Iraq since last fall.
"We need some additional tools to control protests that shut down the city," said
Lars Larson, a conservative radio talk show host who has aggressively stumped for
the bill.
"Right now a group of people can get together and go downtown and block a
freeway," Larson said. "You need a tool to deal with that."
The bill contains automatic sentences of 25 years to life for the crime of terrorism.
.....................................................................................
Lawyers say post-9/11 U.S. is like police state
Jim Nichols, Plain Dealer Reporter | May 01, 2004
Americans have a fearsome new enemy since 9/11, and that enemy is their own
government, a panel of prominent defense lawyers told colleagues Friday.
Congress and the Bush administration are behaving in most un-American ways
under the guise of national security, the lawyers argued: gutting civil rights,
usurping powers to eavesdrop, creating secret tribunals where the accused have
no rights.
And, they emphasize, all Americans not just terrorists are potential victims of the
USA Patriot Act and other laws and presidential orders implemented in 9/11's
wake.
"We are living in a very dangerous age," said Marvin Miller, an Alexandria, Va., trial
lawyer. "I have this theory that just because we started out as a democracy
doesn't mean we're going to survive as a democracy."
"If you think for a minute that giving up our freedoms is the way to protect us from
terrorism, you're equally wrong," he added.
Among legal changes the defense lawyers lambasted:
National Security letters, which allow the FBI, without a warrant or judicial
oversight, to order Internet providers, phone companies and other businesses to

disclose sensitive data on anyone, then impose a gag order barring recipients from
telling anyone the information was requested.
New forms of warrants called "delayed notice" searches that let authorities enter
homes or businesses and copy computer or paper files without telling the search's
target, as traditional warrants require.
Virtually warrantless eavesdropping on electronic communication by the National

Security Administration and Justice Department. The government has been doing it
since 1978 to snoop for foreign spies, but now can share what used to be strictly
intelligence data with state and federal law-enforcement agencies, Mearns said.
The word "terrorism." The Patriot Act defines it so broadly that, had the act existed
earlier, it could have been used to crush the civil-rights movement.
"Hitler did not impose his will on an unsuspecting public," Goldstein said. "The
Third Reich arose on a groundswell of popular support."
.................................................................................
Kiss Goodbye to the 4th Amendment
Jon Christian Ryter | April 1st 2004
It's finally happened. Thanks to recent judicial decisions by the traditionally

conservative 5th Circuit Court and the US Supreme Court, Americans can pretty
much kiss the 4th Amendment good-bye. On the heels of a US Supreme Court
decision that now allows police to fully arrest and handcuff American citizens for
misdemeanor violations of traffic law that are generally punishable with a ticket
and a fine in traffic court, the usually conservative US 5th Circuit Court of Appeals
in New Orleans ruled on Friday, March 26, 2004 that police officers can briefly
search homes and commercial buildings and use any evidence found in those
warrantless searches in the trials of those charged with violating the law—even if
police had no suspicion those being detained had violated laws for which they were
consequently charged based on the evidence discovered in the warrantless search.
The 5th Circuit's decision sets a groundbreaking legal precedent that frightens legal
experts who claim the new ruling establishes a privilege that will quickly be abused
by police in every jurisdiction in the nation even though the 5th Circuit's decision
actually only affects Louisiana, Texas and Mississippi. Louisiana law enforcement
officers claim it was needed to provide safety to officers. Acting on a Baton Rouge
case, the 5th Circuit ruled that police do not need an arrest or search warrant to
conduct a swift sweep of private property to ensure their own safety. Further, the
court ruled, any evidence discovered during the sweep is admissible in court as
long as the search is a cursory inspection of the dwelling or other building rather
than a "deep search” and providing the police entered the building for legitimate
law enforcement purposes...and they had reason to believe that entering that
building or dwelling might be dangerous. What law enforcement situation today is
not dangerous? Even minor domestic squabbles can become instantly dangerous.
......................................................................................
In Push to Stop Drunk Driving, Police Draw Blood
Wall Street Journal | March 24 2004
BROOKFIELD, Wis. -- After police stopped Robert H. Miller for driving erratically
here one afternoon in February 2001, they asked for his license and registration.
Then they asked for something else: his blood. Having been convicted of drunk
driving once before, Mr. Miller refused to cooperate. So after he was taken to a
hospital, five officers pinned him to the floor as a medical technician stuck a needle

in his arm. His blood-alcohol level was 0.266% -- more than twice the legal limit.
Mr. Miller, who declined to comment, challenged the tactic in court but lost. He
pleaded no contest, was sentenced to up to 90 days in jail and lost his license for
18 months.
"I've really pushed it," says John O'Boyle, district attorney of Pierce County, Wis.
Lawyers sometimes successfully challenge breath tests in court or persuade juries
to doubt them, but "blood tests tend to be pretty bulletproof," Mr. O'Boyle says.
Moreover, it's impossible to force a breath test on someone, but taking blood
requires no cooperation. "If we have to literally strap you down if you refuse, that's
what can happen to you," says Lt. Tony Almaraz, a Nevada Highway Patrol
spokesman.
.....................................................................................
POLICE STATE, USA

Cops go to bars to arrest drunks Gestapo-like tactics prompt outrage, complaints
among owners, citizenry
© 2003 WorldNetDaily.com
In the ongoing effort to keep public places clear of intoxicated citizens and drunk
drivers, some police agencies are using a controversial tactic – going directly into
bars and restaurants in order to make arrests.
Such is the situation in northern Virginia, where Fairfax County Police are targeting
patrons suspected of having one too many.
"[Officers] were talking to one of the guests, then physically pulled him off the
barstool," Richie Prisco, general manager at Champps bar told the Reston Times.
"They were really aggressive and nasty."
According to the report, police are hauling customers outside of establishments to

conduct sobriety tests, then arresting them for public drunkenness should they fail.
Tavern owner Jimmy Cirrito says it was intimidating and unnecessary to have some
ten officers show up in SWAT-like attire. He notes police seemed to be tagging
people at random, despite their telling bar owners they had undercover agents
inside, calling in to provide specific descriptions of certain individuals.
"They tapped one lady on the shoulder – who was on her first drink and had just
eaten dinner – to take her out on the sidewalk and give her a sobriety test," Cirrito
told the paper. "They told her she fit the description of a woman they had
complaints about, and that they heard she was dancing topless."
Cirrito said the woman passed the test and was allowed back in, but soon after,
police pulled another woman outside who had arrived shortly before officers did.
"They made her count backward, say the alphabet, tell them where she lived, how
she got there, how she was getting home," he said. "She had just gotten there five
minutes ago in a cab."
Authorities say such methods are not new, despite protests from bar owners that
they've never heard of police coming inside their establishments to enforce
drinking laws.
"I've been an officer for over 17 years, and we've been doing it on and off over my
entire career," police spokeswoman Sophia Grinnan told the Times.
In the wake of the published report, citizens appear to be siding with the bar
owners and patrons, gauging from posts in an on line message board.

"The way police are handling the drink situation is the biggest B.S. I have ever
heard of," wrote Ray Williams.
"I lost a son (at age 16) a few years ago, and I most certainly support stopping
anyone from drinking and driving. However, this police raid that seems to take
place at some local bars is just totally crazy. ... Are we now living in a communist
environment where we are not allowed to do anything without being harassed by
the military/police?"
Russ Heisinger of Northport, N.Y., asked: "What is next, the alcohol police entering
your home on Super Bowl Sunday, and inviting you outside to take a breath test?
A solution would be for all the bar and restaurant owners to become 'private clubs,'
and charge a very nominal fee for membership. However, the true solution is for
the 'Barney Fifes' there to uphold the part of the Constitution about unlawful
search, and to remember that we are after all, a free society, unless the cops think
this is Baghdad!"
Others, like Don Armstrong, urged people to reject field sobriety tests, and request
a blood-alcohol test at a local hospital.
"I have a form of arthritis that often affects my speech patterns and walking
abilities," he wrote. "Under their standards of an acceptable set of motor functions,
I would fail even if I never had an alcoholic drink."
......................................................................................
No homework? Tell it to the judge
HOUSTON (Reuters) - The parents of students at a Houston middle school who tell
teachers the dog ate their homework or the cat ripped it up are getting an unusual
response: tell it to the judge.
At Houston's North Shore Middle School, the parents of students who habitually fail
to complete their homework and miss a mandatory after school program are being
summoned to court, school officials said on Thursday.
The school this week issued 48 misdemeanor criminal citations, similar in severity
to a traffic ticket, to those students' parents. The tickets, which could have yielded
a fine of up to $185 required parents to appear on Wednesday before Harris
County Justice of the Peace Mike Parrott.
.....................................................................................
OUTRAGE OVER NEW WRONG-DOOR BLUNDER BY POLICE
By ERIKA MARTINEZ and ED ROBINSON
http://www.prisonplanet.com/outrage..._by_police.html
May 23, 2003 -- Residents of a Bronx building are outraged after getting an
unexpected morning "greeting" yesterday from a police drug squad, which burst
into their homes, waved guns at children and then left after finding nothing.
"At 7:50 a.m., they burst down the door to the building," said Joe Celcis, a teacher
whose mother and sister live in the home.
"After an hour and a half, they said, 'Sorry wrong house,' and left."
They smashed open a door, handcuffed several people and put a gun in the face of
12-year-old Jennifer Espady before going though everyone's belongings, witnesses
said.

"They came in with guns drawn and pushed me," Jennifer said.
The cops were looking for two handguns, a pile of marijuana and evidence of a pot-
selling operation. They found nothing.
"How can a 12-year-old forget having a gun pointed at her? She was treated like
she was in Iraq."
....................................................................................
http://www.newsfrombabylon.com/inde...=node/view/3142
Deputy Wrestles Girl To Ground
FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. -- A deputy used pepper spray on a 12-year-old girl and
wrestled her to the ground when she ignored repeated orders to stop jaywalking,
the sheriff's office said Friday. Broward County sheriff's deputy Michael Roberto
was issuing jaywalking tickets to students crossing a busy highway Thursday when
he asked the girl to stand next to his motorcycle so he could give her a citation,
the deputy's report said.
But the girl, who was not immediately identified, became upset and began to
curse, Roberto said in the report. The girl also walked away and ignored four more
orders to stop and put her hands behind her back, he said.
The girl, who is 5 feet 1 inch and 134 pounds, threatened to hit Roberto and rolled
her hand in a fist, the report said. The deputy repeatedly warned her that he would
use pepper spray if she didn't listen.
"After the last warning and order, it became apparent that I had to choose
between a physical fight and using the pepper spray," Roberto wrote. "I sprayed
her in the face."
Roberto, a 22-year veteran of the force, was at work Friday, Leljedahl said.
.......................................................................................
Police settle excessive force suit with 71-year-old woman
PORTLAND, Ore. - The city of Portland has agreed to pay $145,000 to an elderly
blind woman after police pepper-sprayed and shocked her with a stun gun.
The altercation began as an attempt to remove shrubs and appliances from 71-
year-old Eunice Crowder's yard, and ended with police citing her for harassment
and disobeying an order.
"This case goes to show that police misconduct and excessive force can happen to
anybody outside the mainstream," said Ernest Warren Jr., Crowder's lawyer. "It
does not have to be an African American; it can be someone who is elderly and
white."
The June 9, 2003, incident began when Ed Marihart, a city employee, showed up at
Crowder's home. He served her with an administrative search warrant to remove
an accumulation of trash and debris.
According to Crowder and her lawyer, the woman told him she was blind and hard
of hearing, and asked him to read the entire warrant to her, but he refused. She
said he placed it in her hands, walked outside and ordered others to start removing
items from her yard.
The woman followed the city employee outside. She was concerned that he and his

co-workers had removed a family heirloom, a 90-year-old red toy wagon with
rhododendrons in it. She asked to enter a trailer, where items from her yard were
being placed, to feel around for the wagon.
Marihart told her she couldn't enter the trailer and said the wagon was not inside.
He then called police.
When Portland Officers Robert Miller and Eric Zajac arrived at the house, Crowder
acknowledged she had one foot on the curb and one foot on the bumper of the
trailer. She felt someone step on her foot and asked, "Who are you?"
Moments later, she felt someone strike her in the head, which dislodged her
prosthetic right eye from its socket, and was knocked to the ground, she claimed in
her lawsuit.
Officers said Crowder ignored their commands not to climb into the trailer and tried
to bite Miller's hand.
They acknowledged she was "pushed onto the dirt next to the sidewalk," according
to the city's legal brief filed in court.
While on the ground, Crowder asked the officer what he thought he was doing and
kicked Miller. She said the officer kicked her back, then pepper-sprayed her in her
eyes.
"While she's still on the ground, on her stomach, they tased her in the back and in
the breast," her lawyer said.
Police said they pepper-sprayed Crowder after she refused to stop kicking them.
They admit that Crowder's prosthetic eye fell out at some point, and that Zajac
stunned Crowder with a Taser, an electric stun gun, twice in the lower back and
once in the upper back after ordering her to stop fighting and resisting.
Warren said the city's argument is bogus. He said, "To kick the crap out of old folks
seems a little bit much to me in the name of law enforcement,"
(Copyright 2004 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)
....................................................................................
Wednesday, March 05, 2003
ALBANY, N.Y. — A man wearing a "Peace on Earth, Give Peace a Chance" T-shirt in
a shopping mall says he was arrested because he refused to take the shirt off, but
the mall says he was nabbed for bothering other shoppers.
Security guards approached Stephen Downs, 61, and his 31-year-old son Roger,
on Monday night after they were spotted wearing the T-shirts at Crossgates Mall in
a suburb of Albany, N.Y., the men said.
The two said they were asked to remove the shirts made at a store there — or
leave the mall. They refused.
The guards returned with a police officer who repeated the ultimatum. The son
took his T-shirt off, but the father refused.
"'I said, 'All right then, arrest me if you have to,'" Downs said. "So that's what they
did. They put the handcuffs on and took me away."
Downs pleaded innocent to the charges Monday night. The New York Civil Liberties
Union said it would help with his case if asked.

Police Chief James Murley said his officers were just responding to a complaint by
mall security.
"We don't care what they have on their shirts, but they were asked to leave the
property, and it's private property," Murley said.
Monday's arrest came less than three months after about 20 peace activists
wearing similar T-shirts were told to leave by mall security and police. There were
no arrests.
The Associated Press contributed to this report.
.....................................................................................................................
http://www.infowars.com/articles/ps..._man_beaten.htm
85-year-old Man Beaten, Pepper-Sprayed By Police

CNN | January 10, 2005
ST. PAUL, Minnesota (AP) -- Police said they are investigating an incident in which
an officer pepper-sprayed an 85-year-old man during a traffic stop.
Leon Nins said officer Michael Lee also beat him after he took too long to stop his
car. Police deny that and say Nins attacked Lee.
Leaders of St. Paul's NAACP chapter and St. Paul African American Leadership
Council alleged that race was a factor. Nins is black.
Nins said at a news conference Thursday that he was bringing sandwiches and
cupcakes to his wife during his daily visit to her nursing home December 27 when
Lee tried to pull him over for having expired license tags.
Nins, a World War II veteran who stands about 5-feet-7 and weighs 145 pounds,
claims Lee was angry that he didn't stop his car right away.
"I told him, 'If I'd have seen you, I would have stopped,"' Nins said earlier. "He got
really mad about that. He told me to get in his car, and he started beating me on
the leg and on the side of the arm. He pushed me down on the floor, and he was
slamming the door on my legs."
Nins was arrested and jailed for two days. The Ramsey County Attorney's Office
declined to charge him with a felony, but prosecutors still could bring a lesser
charge.
Nins said he went to a hospital for treatment after his release.
Police reports said Nins did not stop for nearly a half mile after Lee began trying to
pull him over.
..................................................................................................
4 adults, 3 were cops cant handle 6 year old, they tase him.
Cops taser pregnant woman in stomach for loud music.
Man arrested for wearing 'peace' T-shirt in the same mall

he bought the shirt in.
Man arrested for not leaving a tip.
Student arrested for bringing steel scissors to school.

Woman Arrested For Chewing candy.
7 year old arrested for plastic 1 inch knife at school.
Cop tase 86 year old woman to correct her behavior.
8-year-old Arrested, taken to adult jail For throwing basketball at another kid.
61-year grandmother hauled off in

handcuffs for growing her hedges too high.
Girl visiting NYC during the Republican Convention, NOT a protester, gets thrown
into a makeshift prison. (Thousands of people not associated with the protesters
were arrested.)
Jr. high school student arrested for having steak knife in lunch box.
Eat a candy bar or french fry, go to jail

Woman Appears In Court For Eating Candy At Metro Station.
Cop shots 80+ year old man in wheelchair with bean bag shotgun because of his
aggressive manner.
People/children being arrested and detained with handcuffs for eating candy in
Washington, D.C., subway stations.
Schoolteacher hauled off cruise ship for not paying a fine for leaving marshmallows
at a Yellowstone campsite. Judge finds she actually did pay the fine in the first
place.
Cops taz, hit, pepper spray, and kick 71 blind woman until her eyeball falls out,
because she had an unkept yard.
Charges against a Vietnam-era veteran who flew an American

flag upside down to protest the war in Iraq.
Pregnant Woman Arrested For Talking Too Loudly on Cellphone.
7 year old with paper gun put in jail.
Students tased for not talking to cops.
Kids skip school, parents go to jail.
Young student arrested for Lego gun.
Student arrested at school for nail clippers.
Man jailed over house extension.
Police brutalize nonviolent protesters.
High school honor student arrested and held for 4 inch nail file.
Judge witnesses cops commit hundreds of felonies. They beat up hand cuffed,
downed non violent protesters.
3rd grader arrested for disorderly conduct.
Shopping protesters arrested for "nothing."
Family members arrested and tased at wedding for being to loud.

Marlins fan spends a night in jail for curfew violation

A deputy didn't think the game was a good excuse.
Woman Wearing 'President Bush You Killed My Son' T-shirt arrested.
Jr. high school kids arrested and tased for food fight.
9th grader tased for doing cart wheels and flips when she had been ordered to stop.
15-year-veteran officer used his Taser on a 12-year-old girl who was playing hooky
from school.
$185 fine for dropping a sunflower seed.
Woman arrested for talking too loud in public.
Man gets arrested for giving a cop a documentary tape.
Student, 27 said she saw police throw one protester's glasses in the busy street.
''He was begging them to give him his glasses,''
Hurt veteran arrested by Homeland Security as a terrorist for calling the VA to

much.
Wrong House gets SWATED, beat up 50 year old and arrest him.
Cops Taser 14-Year-Old Who Wouldn't Drop Game Boy.
Cops tackle and pepper spray protesters walking backwards with their hands held
high chanting, "We are Dispersing, We are Dispersing".
Cop uses taser on 7 year old school girl.
Detroit officer severs woman's finger, trying to cuff her for traffic stop.
Cops pepper spray infants faces, held in mothers arms at non violent protests.
A teacher's weighted bookmark gets her arrested and charged with carrying a
concealed weapon.
Woman arrested on domestic violence for calling her

boyfriend "offensive names and throwing baby wipes" at him. also charged with
child abuse for holding child while throwing
the wipes.
Police arrest 8-year-old after scuffle with another 8-year old. Boy handcuffed,
charged with battery. Both boys were not hurt.
Domestic violence case. Throw a crayon, go to jail.
A deputy used pepper spray on a 12-year-old girl and wrestled her to the ground
when she ignored orders to stop jaywalking.
Television pictures of a policeman punching a child in the face. Police attempted to

deal with a picket staged by fishermen and their families. The footage shows a
policeman involved in angry exchanges As the argument continues, the policeman
advances and punches the child in the face.
Man who shot police beating video arrested.
Have a costume/replica musket at school play, get arrested and go to jail.
Peaceful protester, get pepper shot and beat up by cops.

Student goes to jail after saying prayer at prep rally when principle tells him not
too.
Old, confused, arthritic 75 year old woman visiting a friend at a nursing home, get
tasered by cops to help her leave.
Police Use Taser To Subdue Wheelchair-Bound Man.
It didn't take any time at all to find these stories. They are in the papers every
single day. If you want the original link or more on the details, I and others have
posted them at www.copwatch.com . There is no trickery or cop frame ups, they
are all documented and show how our freedom is stripped everyday. 95% of these
abuses happened within the last 6 months.
I could go on and on and on and on.
More information on Loss of Freedom and the Police State:
www.stanley2002.org http://www.lewrockwell.com/ www.infowars.com
www.jackblood.com www.propagandamatrix.com www.theinternationalforecaster.

com
http://www.proliberty.com/observer/ http://www.newswithviews.com/ prisonplant.

tv
I hope this has opened your eyes. Articles like the one you wrote only show your
naivety and
worse, reassure a sleeping public that all is well in America.
Aspen Daily News
ACLU scare tactics at work

By Lynn Burton
The American Civil Liberties Union has sent out a fund-raising letter to downvalley
folks that should be called part of the group's "Scare the People" campaign. Check
it out.
The letter I recently saw, four pages worth, shouts that "fundamental" freedoms
are at risk by "out-of-control" government officials. "Leaders" demonstrate "an
arrogant disregard for the rule of law." The letter repeatedly screams in bold type
the government wants us to "surrender our freedom."
"Surrender our freedom."
"Surrender our freedom."
"Surrender our freedom," the letter warns four times - five if you include the
"Surrender your freedom" at the end.
This somewhat alarmist letter no doubt sent some downvalley folks straight to
their No. 2 pencils so they could frantically sign up to join ACLU and scribble
checks of up to $250. BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE; ACT NOW; DON'T WASTE TIME!
(Actually, I added that last sentence fragment, sort of as a joke).

Some of us more feeble-minded downvalley residents read the letter, and after the
first flush of ACLU induced panic subsided, came up with some questions.
For example, one ACLU warning states, "They want to permanently give the
government the right to break into your home, invade your privacy and rifle
through your possessions without showing probable cause." Question: You mean
like cat burglars, or G. Gordon Liddy or someone like that? You mean they'll invade
my home in the dead of the night while I'm asleep? What if my dog gets out?
Example number two from the letter: "They're asserting the right of government
agents to spy on books you read, the Internet sites you visit and the credit card
purchases you make without you ever knowing it happened." Question: Won't that
require a lot of spies?
Example number three: "One transgression leads to another and the risks to our
freedom start to multiply." Question: You mean like rabbits?
Example number four: "With their global gag rule, and their federal abortion
ban..." Question: You mean the federal government is shutting up Irish people and
Germans, the Chinese and even the Latvians? Or do you mean the government is
actually gagging them all? Like sticking a dirty sock down their mouth like in that
Jack Nicholson movie where he screams, "You can't handle the truth!"
Example number five: "It is hard to imagine a situation in which our civil liberties
could be more in jeopardy than they are right now." Question: You mean even
worse than the Alien and Sedition Acts of 1798? Or various war powers acts that
gave presidents added authority? Or when the federal government set up Japanese
internment camps during World War II? Or J. Edgar Hoover and Richard M. Nixon?
Is that what you mean?
Example number six: "In assaulting liberties that millions of Americans hold dear,
President Bush and his allies are on the wrong side of the law ... the wrong side of
core values ... and the wrong side of history." Statement: You left out the wrong
side of the tracks and the wrong side of the bed.
The letter, which actually does say it's part of the ACLU's "I Refuse to Surrender
My Freedom" campaign, starts its conclusion by saying, "Our leadership has
already resulted in four states and 361 communities adopting anti-Patriot Act
resolutions." Question: You mean Aspen, Carbondale and other towns that
approved anti-Patriot Act resolutions are just doing what the ACLU tells them to
do? Don't our local town councils have a mind of their own?
The ACLU's "I Refuse to Surrender My Freedom" campaign includes a 10 question

survey with "Yes" and "No" boxes that ask such leading questions as "I believe
freedom to follow one's own religious belief is fundamental and that the
government should stay out of religion and leave us all free to practice any religion
on our own way." Nine questions later, the ACLU asks readers to "Implement your
beliefs," become an ACLU member and contribute $20-$250. The whole pitch is
like a slick salesman scaring a none-too-bright victim, and then convincing the
victim that everything will be just fine if he buys what the salesman is selling. The
letter is signed by ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero.
If you'd like to read a copy of the ACLU's "I Refuse to Surrender My Freedom"
campaign letter, the address is the American Civil Liberties Union, Box 96259,
Washington, DC, 20077-7445. I'm sure they'll be glad to respond to any questions
you might have, such as when the letter asks people to join "a chorus of people
across America who are declaring in no uncertain terms 'I refuse to surrender my
freedom.'"
Question: Chorus? What if I can't sing?

Lynn Burton doesn't belong to the ACLU, NRA, NHRA, NCAA, GOP, SDS or PRCA.
You can attempt to reach him at lburton@aspendailynews.com.
Last edited by xtratabasco on 01-15-2005 at 06:36 PM
01-15-2005 06:21 PM
GC Marciano Welcome to Adolph Bush's new Amerika.

Attachment: 0476.4ib.jpg
__________________
"The purpose and the principal effect of posting information about bad cops on the Internet is
to inform the public for its own safety, not to humiliate the officer. Even if the collateral effect
Registered: Jul 2003 of the Internet posting is to shame the officer, this effect is the result of the Officer's crimes.
Location: Chicago, Illinois We agree with the state that the right to be free from the shame, stigma and embarrassment
Posts: 9967 resulting from crimes committed by Sworn Officers of the Law is not the kind of fundamental
right contemplated by our constitution." - Illinois Supreme Court
All statements and opinions expressed are my personal opinions and are not to be viewed as
fact. I am not a speaking agent for Copwatch and have no authority to bind Copwatch or to
act on its behalf. My opinions, ideas, theories and beliefs are my own and are not necessarily
supported, condoned (or often even appreciated) by Copwatch, it's subsidiaries or agents.
09-29-2005 04:46 PM
xtratabasco Lynn Burton just doesnt get it. Its too bad he has a coulmn in the Aspen
Senior Member daily News to spout his fluff.

Location: I just keep sending him e-mails with police abuse and Constitution shreading
Posts: 2869 articles.
I entitled them, It must be nice not to live in a police state like these poor
bastards.
etc. etc.
lburton@aspendailynews.com
09-29-2005 10:36 PM

GC Marciano It is my experience that most members of the media conveniently ignore

Copwatcher Extraordinaire evidence of anti-constitutional behavior by Law Enforcement.
__________________
of the Internet posting is to shame the officer, this effect is the result of the Officer's crimes.
We agree with the state that the right to be free from the shame, stigma and embarrassment
resulting from crimes committed by Sworn Officers of the Law is not the kind of fundamental
Registered: Jul 2003 right contemplated by our constitution." - Illinois Supreme Court
Posts: 9967 All statements and opinions expressed are my personal opinions and are not to be viewed as
09-30-2005 03:06 AM
The Chief They ignore it because it mainly doesn't exist. Why blow something up to bigger
Senior Member proportions than it is? Just let the liberal media do their thing, you'll be happy
soon enough.
__________________
Registered: Nov 2005 One out of five people have a mental illness. Think of your 4 closest friends, if
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You have it
11-15-2005 05:56 AM
GC Marciano quote:
They ignore it because it mainly doesn't exist.
Your ignorance and uneducated opinion has been duly noted and summarily
dismissed as the typical pro-corruption bullshit.
Registered: Jul 2003 __________________

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COPWATCH.com Forum - Rosa Park...I mean Parks sorry I did a bushism
COPWATCH.com Forum > NEWS SECTION > News: PROPAGANDA > Rosa Park...I
mean Parks sorry I did a bushism
Author Thread
xtratabasco Rosa Park...I mean Parks sorry I did a bushism

Senior Member
I do support what she did, just not the lies behind her.
Location:
Posts: 2869
from www.rense.com
'Red' Rosa Parks:

Fabricating An
American Icon
By Henry Makow PhD
11-5-5

Rosa Parks was not a simple seamstress whose lonely act of

defiance in 1955 sparked the Civil Rights Movement. In fact, she
was a trained Communist Party (CPUSA) activist.
Her refusal to move to the back of the bus wasn't a spontaneous

gesture, but a provocation organized by her longtime employer, the
National Association for the Advancement of Colored People
(NAACP).
Last week Rosa Parks' body lay in state under the Capitol Rotunda;
an honor accorded only 29 times in US history, to people like
Abraham Lincoln, John Kennedy, and most recently Ronald Reagan.
This treatment illustrates how the American political leaders and

mass media public routinely deceive and betray the public. The New
York Times obituary said her arrest "turned a very private woman
into a reluctant symbol and torch bearer." President Clinton said her
action "ignited the most significant social movement in American
history."
While I support the ostensible aims of the Civil Rights movement, I

have to ask, given its Communist sponsorship, "What is the hidden
agenda?" I'll elaborate later.
To understand why the US elite would honor a Communist, we need

to make a paradigm shift.
A clique of London-based private bankers controls most of the

world's credit and wealth and wants to consolidate this power in
permanent world institutions of political, social and spiritual control.
It created and funded Communism as an instrument to advance

this goal, which involves dissolving all "collective forces" that might
oppose it, including nation-state, race, religion and family.
Thus "Communism" far from being a relic of the Cold War era is in
different forms still part of our lives, eroding the above institutions.
The "Cold War" continues as the "War on Terror" -- essentially

another fraud calculated to control the masses and further
concentrate wealth and power in the hands of the super rich.
THE PATTERN OF ELITE DECEPTION
The portrayal of Rosa Parks as an ordinary citizen triggered my

alarm bell. Betty Friedan, the "founder" of feminism and longtime
Communist activist was also depicted as an average mother and
housewife. http://www.savethemales.ca/000185.html Thanks to a
well informed Internet forum, Daily Kos.com, I quickly discovered
Rosa Parks began serving as secretary for the NAACP in 1943 and
still held that position when she was arrested. http://www.dailykos.
com/story/2005/10/25/34313/055
In July 1955, five months before the famous incident in December,

she attended "Highlander Folk School" in Monteagle Tennessee.

Myles Horton and James Dombroski, both Communist Party
members, started this school in 1932 to train Communist activists.
Betty Friedan was another alumnus.
http://www.highlandercenter.org
Rosa Parks and many others had defied the bus segregation laws
on several occasions since the 1940's. The Montgomery bus boycott
was planned in advance. Martin Luther King was brought in to lead
it. Rosa Parks was chosen to kick it off. (See Aldon Morris, "The
Origins of the Civil Rights Movement")
A member of Daily Kos.com who works for the CPUSA newspaper

said a CPUSA executive member told him that Rosa Parks was a
member of the party. (This is something Communists don't
advertise.)
The testimony of numerous defectors leaves no doubt the US

Communist Party was directed and funded from Moscow. Despite
what idealistic dupes like Parks and Friedan thought, its goal was to
subjugate the American people.
The Women's Liberation Movement was patterned on the Civil

Rights Movement. They are off-the-shelf Communist psychosocial
operations. To be effective, they must appear to reflect a popular
groundswell rather than an elite agenda imposed from above.
While these movements rectified genuine injustices, their hidden

purpose is to destabilize American society by exploiting potential
internal divisions.
NAACP & MARTIN LUTHER KING: THE DARK SIDE
In his book, "My Awakening" David Duke paints a picture of the

NAACP that suggests a typical Banker-Communist front. (pp.282-
284) Although founded in 1909, it didn't have a Black President
until the 1970's. Until then, its President and Board were mainly
drawn from the ranks of Communist Jews.
http://www.martinlutherking.org/ma-chapter18.html
Martin Luther King may have been a typical front man. Privately he
declared himself a Marxist. He also attended the Highlander School
and his personal secretaries Bayard Rustin and Jack O'Dell were
Communists. Stanley Levinson, his handler, who wrote his speeches
and managed his fundraising, was also a Communist.
Apparently King's integrity has also been called into question. King
plagiarized large sections of his Doctoral Thesis. He also had
liaisons with white prostitutes, which were taped by the FBI and
confirmed by his successor Ralph Abernathy. ("And the Walls Came
Tumbling Down," 1989)
RACIAL STRIFE AS ELITE WEAPON

I find racial prejudice, discrimination and segregation repugnant.

Mankind is a family of races, each gifted and bringing something
unique to the potluck.
At the same time, a balance must be found. Racial and national

groups have a right to protect their racial character and ensure
their survival. I find it odd that countries like Israel, China and
Japan can do this without criticism but countries in Europe and
North America cannot. Blacks, Jews and Hispanics can do this but
Whites cannot. I also believe discrimination in favor of a "minority"
is as bad as discrimination against.
I am a Canadian and am not an expert on the Civil Rights

movement. However, if the CPUSA was involved, there was a
hidden agenda.
It appears to be spelled out in a document entitled "A Racial

Program for the 20th Century" (1912)by an Israel Cohen quoted by
Congressman Abernathy, and entered into the Congressional
Record (1957), p. 8559. If authentic, it is pretty damning:
"We must realize that our party's most powerful weapon is racial
tension. By propounding into the consciousness of the dark races
that for centuries they have been oppressed by the whites, we can
move them to the program of the communist party. In America we
will aim for subtle victory. While inflaming the Negro minority
against whites, we will instill in the whites a guilt complex for their
exploitation of the Negroes. We will aid the Negroes to rise to
prominence in every walk of life, in the professions, and in the
world of sports and entertainment. With this prestige, the Negro will
be able to intermarry with the whites and begin a process which will
deliver America to our cause."
The central bankers are involved in a massive fraud: printing our

money for the price of the paper, loaning it to us and then
demanding repayment with interest. The only way they can
perpetuate this fraud is to keep us distracted. That involves
creating enemies for us.
Look at France with its minority of five million Muslims. Currently

Muslim youth are rioting. French Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy
said Thursday that the riots were "not spontaneous" but rather
"well organized." Do I need to elaborate? The central bankers can
use racial minorities as a weapon.
A final suggestion is that, given the heavily Jewish character of the

Communist Party, the Civil Rights Movement may have been
designed to tear down White racial defenses so that sympathetic
Jews might advance.
CONCLUSION
The sanctification of the Communist Rosa Parks proves again that

the American political and cultural elite is irredeemingably corrupt.

Social change doesn't take place in the USA unless the central
bankers and their media assets sponsor it. Their long-term plan for
world dictatorship is disguised as spontaneous grassroots revolt.
Increasingly the mass media, government and education reveal

their true colors, and discredit themselves in the eyes of the public.
-------------------------
Response from a Black Reader:
Before the civil rights movement there were many economically

viable black communities. Segregation forced black people
especially black man to take care of business. The civil rights
movement destroyed that.
Harry Belafonte said Martin Luther King was killed after he realized
that he was a pawn, that he was duped. Martin Luther King saw
that de-segregation would impoverish the black community. Now
there is no black community, we have no real leadership and we
have no collective economic power. Put together we have a lot of
money but we are the targets of corporations, this is what the civil
rights movement has brought us. And the Nation of Islam was
started by the Jesuits to foment race war.
----------------------------
Henry Makow Ph.D. is the inventor of the game Scruples and author
of "A Long Way to go for a Date." His articles exposing fe-manism
and the New World Order can be found at his web site www.
savethemales.ca He enjoys receiving comments, some of which he
posts on his site using first names only. hmakow@gmail.com
11-06-2005 01:40 AM
Navigatr1 Too bad we are taking huge steps backwards in terms of civil rights.
Extended Sabatical People just don't realize it. The civil rights being given up are in the
name of public safety, which is creating a false sense of security.
--Navigatr1
Location: __________________
Posts: 31403 I am not a Lawyer. My opinions are my own, and not necessarily those of the
guys are."


their people."
13, 1787
11-06-2005 11:55 AM
The Chief I actually agree, Rosa parks was no hero. Not moving from a bus
Senior Member seat isn't heroic. I was hammerfed that crap in school, books and
books on crap like that. Martin Luther King was a great orator, and
very knowlegible. But to compare him to Malcom X, gang affialiate
(Black Panthers) is wrong. I don't feel we've taken a step back in
Registered: Nov 2005 "civil liberities" however, I believe we've moved forward. People
Location: may have less rights, can't carry a gun or do weed or drive without
Posts: 283 a license, but without those things people would die. A step
forward, maybe not, but a step in the right direction indeed
__________________
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11-15-2005 05:44 AM

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COPWATCH.com Forum - Noam Chomsky---controlled asset of the new world order
COPWATCH.com Forum > NEWS SECTION > News: PROPAGANDA > Noam
Chomsky---controlled asset of the new world order
Author Thread
xtratabasco Noam Chomsky---controlled asset of the new world order

Senior Member
Noam Chomsky - Controlled

Registered: Jul 2004 Asset Of The New
Location:
Posts: 2869 World Order
Commentary
By Daniel L. Abrahamson
DLAmedia@yahoo.com
9-27-5
"Since 9-11, he has steadfastly refused to discuss the evidence of

government complicity and prior knowledge. Furthermore, he
claims that the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR), Bilderberg
Committee, and Trilateral Commission are "nothing organizations."
When critiquing poverty, he never mentions the Federal Reserve

and their role in manipulating the cycle of debt. Similarly, he claims

the CIA was never a rogue organization and is an innocent
scapegoat; that JFK was killed by the lone assassin Lee Harvey
Oswald; that the obvious vote fraud in 2004 did not occur..."
Noam Chomsky is often hailed as America's premier dissident

intellectual, a fearless purveyor of truth fighting against media
propaganda, murderous U.S. foreign policy, and the crimes of profit-
hungry transnational corporations.
He enjoys a slavish cult-like following from millions leftist students,

journalists, and activists worldwide who fawn over his dense books
as if they were scripture. To them, Chomsky is the supreme deity, a
priestly master whose logic cannot be questioned.
However, as one begins to examine the interviews and writings of

Chomsky, a different picture emerges. His books, so vociferously
lauded in leftist circles, appear to be calculated disinformation
designed to distract and confuse honest activists. Since the 1960's,
Chomsky has acted as the premier Left gatekeeper, using his
elevated status to cover up the major crimes of the global elite.
His formula over the years has stayed consistent: blame "America"
and "corporations" while failing to examine the hidden Globalist
overclass which pulls the strings, using the U.S. as an engine of
creation and destruction. Then after pinning all the worlds ills on
American imperialism, Chomsky offers the solution of world
government under the United Nations.
In his book "The Conspirator's Hierarchy," Dr. John Coleman named

Chomsky as a deep cover CIA agent working to undermine social
protest groups. Certainly Dr. Coleman's claims appear validated by
an honest review of Chomsky's role as a Left gatekeeper.
Since 9-11, he has steadfastly refused to discuss the evidence of

government complicity and prior knowledge. Furthermore, he
claims that the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR), Bilderberg
Committee, and Trilateral Commission are "nothing organizations."
When critiquing poverty, he never mentions the Federal Reserve
and their role in manipulating the cycle of debt.
Similarly, he claims the CIA was never a rogue organization and is

an innocent scapegoat; that JFK was killed by the lone assassin Lee
Harvey Oswald; that the obvious vote fraud in 2004 did not occur;
and that peak oil is real and good for humanity.
What he does advocate is population control, gun control, support

for U.N.E.S.C.O., and the end of national sovereignty in favor of a
one-world government under the UN. In other words, the major
goals of the New World Order.
Chomsky's role in propaganda paradigm is much like that of Karl

Marx: to present a false liberation ideology which actually supports

the desired solutions of the elite. Marx pointed out the inequalities
and brutality of capitalism and then advocated a one world bank,
army, and government with the abolition of private property and
religion; in other words, the major goals known of the New World
Order.
Tens of millions of activists worldwide still remain trapped by this

scam, failing to recognize the inherent autocratic and elitist
structures of Marxism-Leninism or the newer incarnation under
Chomsky.
The Globalist elites and their army of social scientists at the

Tavistock Institute understand that people are going to question the
inequities of the current economic system. For example, why is
wealth distributed so unequally between classes and countries?
Why are those living in third world nations allowed to die from
preventable diseases and starvation? Why does the U.S.
government sponsor and direct such murderous foreign policy? Why
was America attacked on 9-11?
In other words, why is the world embroiled in such violence? Who is

behind all this suffering? And most importantly, what solutions
would relieve the poverty and destruction plaguing the worldwide
population?
Enter Chomsky, the controlled opposition, to play the role of re-

direct agent. He discusses a mere fraction of the real elite
manipulation and then quickly pushes his followers into dead-end
solutions and alienating rhetoric. Chomsky's hero status is further
amplified by Left gatekeeper publications like Z Magazine,
DemocracyNow!, The Progressive, and The Nation.
Is it a coincidence that all of those magazines receive major funding

from Globalist front-groups like the Rockefeller Foundation, Ford
Foundation, Carnegie Endowment, and MacArthur Foundation?
Chomsky may be the head gatekeeper, but he works alongside a
network of fellow Globalist assets like Amy Goodman who do their
best to appear radical while avoiding all the hardcore issues and
deliberately leading the Left into oblivion.
The following analysis will show that Chomsky, a deep cover agent
for the New World Order, a master of black propaganda whose true
motives become clear with a sober and honest examination.
911
Noam Chomsky has acted as the premier Left gatekeeper in the

aftermath of the 9-11 crimes, lashing out at the 9-11 truth
movement and claiming any suggestions of government complicity
are fabrications. The "radical" Chomsky takes a position so deeply
rooted in denial that it makes the staged 9-11 whitewash
commission look like an honest study. He belligerently refuses to
discuss any of the massive evidence proving government

foreknowledge and participation in the crimes, claiming it would

destroy the activist movements worldwide:
"If the left spends its time on this, that's the end of the left, in my
opinion: the mainstream would be utterly delighted. It is highly
likely that nothing significant will be found. And if -- which I very
greatly doubt -- something is found that would quickly send
everyone in Washington to the death chamber, the left is unlikely to
emerge triumphant."
In other words, Chomsky is telling his followers to ignore the

evidence because according to him, none exists. However even if
there is massive evidence, responsible activists should ignore it
because it would be "the end of the Left." Chomsky's role as a 9-11
gatekeeper goes even further as he denies each piece of evidence
individually. The following examples should suffice:
1) As most honest 9-11 researchers know, 7 of the accused 19

hijackers are alive, proving the official story is a fabrication. Many
of the remaining 12 were trained as U.S. Air Force bases and CIA-
connected Huffman Aviation. Many of the accused "religious
fanatics" acted more like degenerate contract agents, as they
flashed wads of cash, visited strip clubs, drank profusely, blew
cocaine, smoked weed, cavorted with strippers and had strange
meetings in the drug-rich Florida keys.
Men like Mohammed Atta fit the MO of an undercover CIA drug

runner: a man trained at U.S. Air Force bases, fluent in many
languages, able to evade INS regulations, working with drug
dealers, and receiving wired bank funds from CIA-linked Pakistani
intelligence. There remains no photographic evidence of these
supposed hijackers ever getting on the planes (walking through
airport security does not count). Furthermore, the autopsy list of
Flight 77 which supposedly hit the Pentagon listed none of the
accused hijackers.
Regarding the evidence of government complicity in training the

hijackers, Chomsky wrote the following:
"Nothing empirical is impossible. Thus, it is conceivable that

everyone in the White House is totally insane. And in my opinion,
that's what they would have had to be to try something that would
have been very likely to turn into an utter fiasco, and if by some
miracle had succeeded, would almost certainly have leaked, so that
they would all be facing the death sentence. Possible, but not likely."
2) What about the unprecedented NORAD stand down on 9-11

which broke standard operation procedure? Over 67 times in 2001,
NORAD had dispatched jets when they deviated from their flight
path. In 1999, when golfer Payne Stewart's single engine Lear in
depressurized, NORAD planes were flying around the vessel in 20
minutes.
But on 9-11, Ben Sliney, in his first day on the job as hijacking

coordinator for the FAA, delayed calls to NORAD. Meanwhile NORAD

ran at least 7 hijacking drills that morning like Operation Vigilant
Guardian where commercial jets crashed into government buildings
in Manhattan, Washington DC, and Virginia. These "mock" drills,
designed to give live on 9-11, helped to distract the honest people
within NORAD and the FAA, and to evade suspicion from patriotic
investigators within the CIA, FBI, and NSA's Echelon network.
Of the subject of the NORAD stand down, Chomsky wrote the

following:
"Whether NORAD followed SOP, I have no idea, not having

investigated the matter. I think the case is very weak, and diverts
people from the really serious issues."
3) How about the document called "Operation Northwoods" signed

off in 1962 by the Joint Chiefs of Staff like Generals Lemnitzer and
Landsdale? These men, sworn to protect the Constitution, devised a
plan to create false-flag terrorism in order to engineer a war with
Cuba. Their treasonous plans included the following:
- "Hijacking attempts against civil air and surface craft could appear
to continue as harassing measures condoned by the Government of
Cuba."
- "Exploding a few plastic bombs in carefully chosen spots, the

arrest of Cuban agents and the release of prepared documents
substantiating Cuban involvement also would be helpful in
projecting the idea of an irresponsible government."
- "We could blow up a U.S. ship in Guantanamo Bay and blame

Cuba . . . casualty lists in U.S. newspapers cause a helpful wave of
indignation."
This document was discovered in the National Archives and has

been the subject of mainstream articles by ABCNEWS and others. It
stands as clear evidence that the U.S. government has designed
plans to engineer terrorist attacks and blame them on foreign
enemies. Yet Noam Chomsky does not think the Northwoods
document matters:
"Operation Northwoods example is only one of many reasons for

being skeptical about this: it doesn't even come close, and it was
not carried out. Furthermore, there is nothing in history that even
remotely resembles what is being proposed. Of course, that does
not show that the thesis is impossible: nothing could show that, by
definition. And if someone can put together some evidence and
refute the arguments as to why it is extraordinarily unlikely, then
the matter will be worth pursuing."
Chomsky's role as the chief 9-11 gatekeeper proves he is

distracting his leftist followers from the truth. Instead of facing the
clear facts, he claims that 19 hijackers did it and that al-Qaeda is a
real terrorist enemy. When presented with documented evidence,

from living hijacker patsies to the NORAD stand down, he simply

claims it doesn't exist. He resorts to emotional "they would never
do it" appeals in order to deny the obvious.
Chomsky is exhibiting far more than logical skepticism, but instead

is actively engaging in disinformation.
9-11 Prior Knowledge
Chomsky denial of government complicity in the crimes of

September 11 is one thing, but he goes further, claiming the
government had no prior knowledge of the attacks. Mind you, this
is a position even weaker than Michael Moore's tepid Fahrenheit 9-
11, which at least tacitly suggested a degree of prior knowledge.
Chomsky's position is untenable. For a man who prides himself on

science and logic, his steadfast refusal to acknowledge mainstream
media reports finds him using arguments similar to Holocaust
deniers; one can show them photographs, videos, testimony, and
physical evidence but the burden of proof is impossible. Such is the
case with Chomsky who ignores the many government admissions
of prior knowledge widely available even in the 9-11 whitewash
commission report. Here is Noam Chomsky writing on government
prior knowledge:
"That tells us even less. Every intelligence agency is flooded, daily,

with information of very low credibility. In retrospect, one can
sometimes pick out pieces that mean something. At the time, that's
a virtual impossibility. By arguments like this we can prove that
someone blew up the White House yesterday."
If they did not have prior knowledge, why were Cheney and NORAD
running drills that morning where hijacked jets flew into buildings in
New York, Washington DC and Virginia? Also, wouldn't the NSA's
Echelon network have picked up the chatter?
Of course, Chomsky does not even admit the Echelon network

exists. This despite the NSA's openly acknowledged ability to
monitor all phone calls, emails and satellite communication with
keyword software which can identify phrases and immediately begin
tracking the communication. This despite their admitted bases at
Fort Meade, with sister sites in the UK, Australia, Canada, New
Zealand and other unknown locations.
Students of the intelligence world know full well that the NSA's
Echelon network picked up the chatter for weeks before the attacks.
In fact, the NSA admitted it, saying that on September 10 agents
intercepted calls from hijackers but, *ahem*, did not translate
them until after the attacks. Such admissions are red herrings,
clearly designed to excuse massive prior knowledge at tops levels of
the intelligence circles.
What about the President Daily Briefing given to Bush in late August

which discussed the threat of hijacked jets? What about intelligence

groups like Able Danger and FBI agents like Robert Wright who
warned of the flight school trainees? What about FBI agent John
O'Neill's investigation into Al-Qaeda financing which was quashed
by Bush? What about attorney David Schippers who desperately
tried to warn Ashcroft about the impending attacks? Why was the
CIA admittedly tracking the accused hijackers since 2000? Why was
FEMA running drills in Manhattan that morning out of WTC-7? Why
did PNAC documents like "Rebuilding America's Defenses" call for
helpful Pearl Harbor style attacks?
Those are just a smattering of the mountain of evidence proving

beyond any reasonable doubt that the U.S. government had prior
knowledge. But Chomsky must deny these, because his role is to
mislead and distract while chastising the 9-11 truth movement.
CFR/Bilderberg/Trilateral Commission
Before and after 9-11, the key role for the Left Gatekeepers like
Chomsky has been denying the existence of the overclass which
prints the money, funds and manages the wars, ships the drugs,
controls entire industries, and creates the scientific propaganda
which plagues society. Instead they critique mid-level minions &
front corporations while speaking in glittering generalities.
In the world of Left gatekeepers, the New World Order does not
exist. There are no elite plan for global government. Instead they
paint the picture of a profit-motivated world in which corporations
control the government. But merely blaming corporations misses
the forces which own their assets, manage their resources, control
their board of directors, and pull their strings.
Chomsky steadfastly denies the role of the Council on Foreign

Relations, Bilderberg Committee, and Trilateral Commission in the
creation and management of the wars and poverty he claims to
condemn. When speaking on such "conspiracies," he said the
following:
"It's the same with the Trilateral Commission, the Council on

Foreign Relations, all these other things
the people are racing around searching for conspiracy theories
about-they're "nothing" organizations. Of course they're there,
obviously rich people get together and talk to each other, and play
golf with one another, and plan together-that's not a big surprise.
But these conspiracy theories people are putting their energies into
have virtually nothing to do with the way the institutions actually
function."
(Understanding Power, 348)
The CFR, funded by Wall Street and the Rockefellers after WW II, is
an organization openly sworn to destroying American national
sovereignty in favor of world government. They have acted as the

de-facto "secret team" in managing U.S. domestic and foreign

policy, orchestrating wars like Vietnam and the first Gulf War..
Almost all executives in the CIA and State Department have been
members of the CFR, whether it was Dean Rusk, Allen Dulles and
Robert McNamara during Vietnam or Richard Armitage and George
Tenet during the crimes of 9-11.
The CFR has been the dominant roundtable group pushing for a
Panamerican Union by 2010 which would dissolve national borders
and unite Mexico, Canada, and America under a single currency,
with biometric ID cards and GPS-tracked vehicles on camera-strewn
superhighways. How can Chomsky seriously claim the CFR is a
"nothing organization" when their role in crafting policy is so clear?
Whom is he trying to protect in denying the treasonous goals of the
CFR?
Chomsky's stonewalling on the Bilderberg raises even more

suspicions. Since 1954 the Bilderberg has served as the central
brain of the New World Order, the major secret gathering for
Globalist agents from across the globe. Bilderberg chairmen like
Prince Bernhard and David Rockefeller have pushed for total global
government, eugenics population control, engineering wars, and
controlling the worldwide economy. Top politicians from America
and Europe also undergo a grooming process at the Bilderberg. Bill
Clinton went in 1991 as Rockefeller's personal guest, and Tony Blair
attended in 1993 before becoming Prime Minister. John Kerry
attended in 2000, and John Edwards did two weeks before
becoming the VP nominee in 2004.
Major members of the media, such as editors from the Economist,

NY Times, Newsweek, Washington Post, US News and World Report
are regular attendees. Yet they rarely, if ever, mention the
proceedings, sworn to secrecy by their globalist masters.
Nevertheless in recent years, the truth has emerged. Major media

outlets like the BBC admit the Bilderberg is planning for a one-world
currency, bank, and army. Articles in Reuters and the Financial
Times of London have admitted the existence of the Bilderberg,
their grooming of politicians, and their secret plans for world

governance. If these mainstream media reporters can admit the
major role of the Bilderberg in shaping world affairs, why can't
Chomsky? Why is he holding back?
Simlarly, how can Chomsky seriously ignore the role of the

Trilateral Commission, the brainchild of Globalist masters David
Rockefeller and Zbigniew Brzezinski? This is the same Brzezinski
who helped direct the first CIA funds to bin Laden, and in his book
Between Two Ages called for a technotronic society with a
microchipped population.
The Trilateral Commission openly admits they are trying to control

the economy through closer European-Japanese-American
cooperation. They operate much like the CFR, counting the worlds

top elites, politicians, corporate executives, and media barons as

members. They have been instrumental in creating the destructive
"free trade" agreements that are destroying America's economy and
national sovereignty in order to usher in world governance.
Journalist Jim Tucker, a Spotlight reporter with impeccable

credentials, also links the Trilateral Commission to the international
narcotics trade, the $500 billion-plus racket from heroin and
cocaine alone which helps fund the Globalist's house of cards.
What would motivate Chomsky to call the Trilateral Commission a

"nothing organization?" Is it because they echo his goal of a world
government? Or are there darker forces at work?
When balanced against over 50 years of documented evidence,

Chomsky's claims are exposed as nothing more than spurious lies
and denial.
Federal Reserve
Similarly, while Chomsky bemoans the widespread poverty in

America and the Third World, he has never spoken publicly on the
role of the Federal Reserve. Therefore most Leftist activists are
unaware of the role played by this privately owned bank cartel
which prints worthless fiat currency out of thin air. Since its secret
formation at Jekyll Island in 1910, and subsequent illegal passage
during the Wilson administration, the Federal Reserve has held the
American economy hostage: creating inflation and boom & bust
cycles through managed money supply and interest rates.
Furthermore, every dollar printed is merely debt charged to the

federal government. Thus while it only costs 10 cents to print a
$100 bill, the U.S. government fits the bill for the full $100 to the
private Fed.
The creation of the Federal Reserve, owned largely by the

Rockefeller, Morgan, and Rothschild interests has eluded the
"radical" Chomsky. Furthermore he does not discuss the proven role
of the Fed in creating recessions and depressions in order to
purchase assets at a fraction of their value.
Chomsky ignores the role of the fiat currency system which drives
down wages, inflates prices, and puts the American economy under
the iron claw of a few elite families. Since the dollar is the base
currency for worldwide trade and the current economic house of
cards, shouldn't these topics be discussed?
Perhaps Chomsky stays mute because a central bank fits into his
ideology. After all, one of the key planks in the Marxist and Fabian
socialist agenda is a managed central bank in order to control the
economy. Or perhaps Chomsky fears discussion of the Fed would
expose the real hidden hand that runs the world economy. For him
it is easier to blast the front corporations and low-level grocery

boys.
The CIA
If he denies even basic government foreknowledge of 9-11, should

it be any surprise that Chomsky avoids criticism of the CIA? When
asked about the links between the CIA and bin Laden, and the CIA's
overt support of the Taliban, Chomsky wrote the following:
"CIA support for bin Laden (which is not quite accurate) or the
Taliban (also
not quite accurate) doesn't seem to me remotely relevant."
How can Chomsky write this with a straight face? He is simply

ignoring the documented evidence of CIA funding for the "freedom
fighters" known as al-Qaeda, totaling over $6 billion. The cozy CIA/
al-Qaeda relationship continued through the Bosnian conflict via
training of the drug-peddling Kosovo Liberation Army.
What about the meetings between Taliban leaders, oil executives,

and Bush administration officials from January to August 2001 to
discuss building an oil and gas pipeline for Unocal? Chomsky also
denies the mainstream reports from UK and French newspapers
about two top CIA agents meeting with bin Laden for over ten days
in July 2001 while he received dialysis at the American Hospital in
Dubai.
But Chomsky goes further than that. While claiming to critique the
CIA, he absolves the agency of any responsibility for its actions,
from Nazi origins via Project Paperclip to heinous mind control
experiments like MK ULTRA. This horrific period in CIA history, a
true Rosetta stone in understanding the New World Order, is
scientifically ignored by Chomsky, who sees the CIA as an innocent
victim of White House orders:.
"Or take the CIA, which is considered the source of a lot of these
conspiracies; we have a ton of
information about it, and as I read the information, the CIA is
basically just an obedient branch of the White House. I mean sure,
the CIA has done things around the world- but as far as we know, it
hasn't done anything on its own.
There's very little evidence-in fact, I don't know of any-that the CIA
is some kind of rogue elephant, you know, off on its own doing
things. What the record shows is that the C.I.A. is just an agency of
the White House, which sometimes carries out operations for which
the Executive branch wants what's called "plausible deniability"; in
other words, if something goes wrong, we don't want it to look like
we did, those guys in the CIA did it, and we can throw some of
them to the wolves if we need to. That's basically the role of the
CIA, along with mostly just a collection of information.
(Chomsky, "Understanding Power")

Like all of Chomsky's claims, this one is based on emotion,

conjecture, and opinion. He does not cite any specifics, knowing full
well that his fawning minions will accept his word as gospel.
Chomsky sees the CIA as a pathetic collection of scapegoat

bureaucrats, acting as grocery boys for their master President.
According to him, the CIA does not carry out secret projects on
their own, and if accused of such, are innocent.
JFK Assassination/CIA Role
Therefore is it any surprise the Chomsky endorses the lone assassin

and magic bullet theory in the assassination of JFK? From his
emergence as a guru of the Left in the late 60's, Chomsky has
belittled anyone researching the anomolies stemming from the
official story and Warren Commission cover-up. According to him,
any examination is a complete waste of time:
"The Kennedy assassination cult is probably the most striking case.

I mean, you have all these people doing super-scholarly intensive
research, and trying to find out just who talked to whom, and
what's the exact contours were of this supposed high-level
conspiracy - it's all complete nonsense. As soon as you look into the
various theories, they always collapse, there's just nothing there.
But in many places, the left has just fallen apart on the basis of
these sheer cults."
(Chomsky, Understanding Power)
Chomsky's position puts him in the less than 15% of Americans

who believe Oswald was the lone shooter. For such a self-
proclaimed "anarchist" radical, Chomsky's trust in Warren
Commission's official story seems akin to a child's belief in Santa
Claus.
The facts, of course, tell a different story. While far from perfect
man, Kennedy ran afoul by opposing the very forces that took over
after his death. He began withdrawing 5,000 CIA "advisers" from
Vietnam; fired CIA chiefs Allen Dulles and Richard Bissel; disbanded
the CIA and handed over covert operations to the State
Department; ordered the creation of a silver-backed government
currency to break the Federal Reserve monopoly; turned down the
Operation Northwoods plan to engineer false flag terrorism and
blame it on Cuba; and refused to invade Cuba and launch a full
scale nuclear war during the Missile Crisis, a plan favored by hawks
like General Curtis LeMay.
Chomsky ignores the true history of the Kennedy presidency

because it would expose te shadow government takeover after his
assassination.
What about Chomsky's claims that the CIA never acts as a rogue

elephant? Do they hold up?
09-29-2005 10:43 PM
xtratabasco part 2
Senior Member
part 2
Location:
Posts: 2869 MK ULTRA/Project Paperclip
Chomsky has never publicly acknowledged the covert CIA mind

control programs known as MK ULTRA and its many offshoots. This
program alone shows how the CIA was indeed a rogue elephant, as
they ran illegal campaign of propaganda, brainwashing, sex slavery,
and poisoning of citizens.
In 1946, Globalist bagman Harry Truman began a covert plan to

smuggle top Nazi SS officers, scientists, and propagandists into
America. Those same war criminals quickly became the front line
for the postwar U.S. intelligence machine. Reinhard Gehlen, one of
Hitler's top intelligence chiefs, led postwar European intelligence for
the CIA, becoming the darling of head honcho Allen Dulles.
Then, using his same crew of Gestapo and SS, aided by the
Vatican, and sponsored by the CIA, Gehlen set up "rat lines" which
smuggled 5,000 of the worst Nazi criminals into South and Central
America. Butchers like Klaus Barbie, Mortin Bormann and Josef
Mengele among others owed their freedom to this program.
Those same men would later aid CIA coups in Angentina, Chile,
Paraguay, Brazil and other countries. After all, they were veteran
experts: early Gehlen projects had included rigging elections in
Italy and France. By 1955, more than 760 German scientists had
been became U.S. citizens, many specializing in black research
projects. This growing cabal of Nazi doctors found a happy marriage
with the control freak elitists infesting the NSA, CIA, and black
operations government.
These men birthed the MK ULTRA program, focusing on mass mind

control, via drugs, hypnosis, subliminals, and pulsed
electromagnetic waves. It was this mad science, spawned in the
Nazi labs of Dr. Josef Mengele, that now obsessed men like Sidney
Gottlieb, John Lilly, Jose Delgado and Ewen Cameron.
Their most famous project was the creation of Manchurian

candidates, used for political assassinations, drug transportation,
espionage, and sabotage. Yet this was not limited to Sirhan Sirhan.
In fact, both Gottlieb and Cameron helped train thousands of pre-

adolescent children for use in child prostitution, sex slavery,

blackmail, satanic rituals and murder. Known as the Monarch

Project, children were kidnaped from American streets and foreign
nations and then programmed with trauma based mind control.
Other common victims for experimentation included prisoners, the

homeless, and residents of mental institutions, all cherry-picked
because they were defenseless. Details of this horrific and still
operational program are available in rare and highly suppressed
texts of Fritz Springmeier, which usually fetch over $300 a piece.
Why does Chomsky refuse to discuss MK ULTRA and its sister

projects? Why does he claim the CIA was merely a pawn of the
White House, when the record proves that Eisenhower and Kennedy
had little, if any knowledge of MK ULTRA? Simply put: Why is Noam
Chomsky covering for the CIA?
Elite Child Sex Rings
The Monarch Project of prostituting children deserves further

mention (although Chomsky would disagree). In 1988 Vice
President Bush was caught having 15 year-old call boy prostitutes
visiting the White House late at night. The credit cards records to
prove it were splashed across the front page of the Washington
Times: "Homosexual Prostitution Inquiry Ensnares VIP's with
Reagan, Bush Sr."
Unfortunately the star witness, Craig Spence, was suicided in his

hotel with piano wire before he could testify. Book like "The Franklin
Coverup" by John DeCamp have further proven the links between
the CIA and Army intelligence to the elite sex slavery rings. Cases
of like the "The Finders" in Washington DC, where customs agents
discovered a CIA warehouse full of child porn and satanic torture,
stand as yet further evidence.
In the forrmer Yugloslavia, CIA front company Dyncorp has been

convicted of operating in the human slave trade and using their C-
130's to ship many of the 200,000 women and children smuggled
out every year. Furthermore, mainstream news outlets have shown
evidence of UN Peacekeepers assisting the sex trade in the
Democratic Republic of Congo and Balkans.
Despite the voluminous amount of grotesque evidence, Chomsky

has never discussed the elite sex trade. This is an issue so
shocking, so paradigm-altering, that his Leftist followers would no
longer trust their loving mother government, and that is the last
thing Chomsky wants. After all, if the Leftists knew that top level
politicians are actually pedophiles practicing satanic ritual abuse,
they would no longer trust the savior world government. The
absence of Chomsky and the Left on the suffering of these children
speaks volumes about their true moral character and motives.
MK ARTICHOKE/ MK NAOMI:

Other MK ULTRA side projects included pushing LSD to the youth

culture and attaching electrodes into prisoners heads, the latter
perfected by Dr. Delgado. Adjunct programs like MK NAOMI and MK
ARTICHOKE focused on genetically engineered viruses, biological
agents, and radiation effects on American citizens. Common
experiments included testing biological agents and atomic weapons
radiation on soldiers, the mentally handicapped, people in subways,
and even whole towns; putting cancer viruses into polio vaccines;
and exposing pregnant women to radiation to test the effects on
the fetus. These experiments have been documented as continuing
into the 1980's and likely still continue today.
Chomsky does not discuss these horrendous programs, because it

would awaken his readers to the cruelest fact: that the U.S.
government will murder its own citizens and soldiers, killing
hundreds of thousands of unwitting subjects simply for political
gain. After all, if they would feed radiated breakfast cereal to
thousands of ******ed children, would these same parasitic elites
not also kill more than 2,800 Americans on September 11?
Fluoride
Of course, MK ULTRA lives on today in our drinking water. It was

around the time of its inception, in the 1950's, that the U.S.
government began adding sodium fluoride to tap water in massive
quantities.. Should we be shocked? After all, the first people to use
the deadly neurotoxin were the Nazis, who found it pacified the
concentration camp prisoners. Now thanks to imported Nazi doctors
helping our friendly neighborhood CIA, American citizens could
enjoy the same privilege as those in Hitler's camps.
Chomsky has never discusses the effects of sodium fluoride, nor the
lead and arsenic used in water as silent weapons of pacification. As
a scientist, he is apparently uninterested in sodium fluoride's
proven link to cancer, leukemia, osteoporosis, Alzheimer disease,
and brain damage.
So, should we be surprised that he never writes about the deadly

poison aspartame found in thousands of products? Or genetically
modified foods and growth hormones which destroy immune
systems while causing blood disorders and swelling of the organs?
Or cell phones which emit deadly microwave radiation leading to
cancer, vision loss, and (according to published BBC reports)
altering human DNA? Or the GWEN towers which pulse deadly ELF
radiation across America?
Rockefeller Pharma Cartel
The Nazi doctors who didn't end up in American intelligence found

cushy jobs in the pharmaceutical cartel firms like Merck and Eli-
Lilly. Chomsky never discusses the history of these firms; nor the

Rockefeller control over the American Medical Association; nor the

link between mercury-tainted vaccines and brain damage; nor the
deadly mind control drugs like SSRI's (Prozac, Zoloft, etc.) and
amphetamine-based Adderall/Ritalin pills pimped out to helpless
children.
These drugs cause bone degeneration, memory loss, suicidal

tendencies and added depression to the poor kids gobbling them
like Flintstone's chewables, all at the advice of their pill-pusher
death merchant doctors. Meanwhile Chomsky stays true to form,
ignoring these matters and instead calling for socialized, Federally-
controlled healthcare which would further subsidize the pharma
cartel. This is just another example of his bait and switch tactics, a
sloppy mess of disinfo and elite sponsored solutions.
Psychiatry/ New Freedom Initiative
Chomsky and his Left Gatekeepers also ignore the assault from
psychiatric community, largely controlled by the Rockefellers and
Tavistock Institute, who seek to define every neurosis as a mental
illness in order to push more drugs. Bush has signed the New
Freedom Initiative to forcibly psychologically test all K-12 students
in public schools, screen them for "mental illnesses," and force the
children to take the recommended drugs.
This brainwashing agenda was pushed by the pharma cartel, with

GlaxoSmithKline, Eli Lilly, Merck and others investing millions in
buy-offs and lobbying. But news of this extraordinary Stalinist plan
never graced the pages of Chomsky's editorials, nor Z Magazine,
The Nation, the Progressive, and DemocracyNow. Perhaps this is
because the New Freedom Initiative fits into their goal of
government-controlled socialized health care.
The New Freedom Initiative, bolder than Stalin's wildest dreams, is

just a small part of the eugenics agenda; a dominant Globalist goal
which Chomsky and his Left Gatekeeper bagmen aid and abet.
Chomsky has never written about the sinister American Psychiatric
Association, nor the role of it's former chief, Dr. Ewen Cameron, the
aforementioned MK ULTRA villain and CIA child programmer.
Key aspects of the scientific eugenics movement such as population

control, abortion legalization, poisonous vaccinations, and stem cell
research find their most vocal advocates on the far Left of the
managed political debate. Leftist college majors like sociology
advocate programs like parental licensing by the state, state-
controlled child care, and Chinese style childbirth laws with forced
sterilization as a penalty.
Leftists call for more vaccinations in the Third World despite the
admittedly tainted vaccines used by the World Health Organization
and UNICEF. All of this is indicative of an infiltrated movement, a
Left deeply penetrated by Globalist agents driving activists into
unwittingly championing the Brave New World.

Population Control
Population control by any means necessary is a major, some would

say the major goal of the New World Order, perhaps even
paramount to their goal of a cashless society control grid with
microchipped slaves. The chief architects of population control are
Bilderberg elitists like David and Nelson Rockefeller, Henry
Kissinger, Prince Philip, Ted Turner, Alexander Haig, and Cyrus
Vance. Their Malthusian nightmare requires killing 90% of the
"useless eaters" through war, genetically engineered viruses, and
engineered starvation. Declassified documents like NSM 200 and
Global 2000 lay the plans out with cold precision.
Chomsky, the self-proclaimed radical, also advocates such

depopulation methods. In Chomsky's book "Understanding Power,"
a collection of his talks with activists, a crowd member asks about
population control, to which Chomsky responds:
"If we continue to produce energy by combustion, the human race

isn't going to survive much longer...Yeah, population control is
another issue where it doesn't matter if you do it, everybody has to
do it. It's like traffic: I mean you can't make driving a car
survivable by driving well yourself; there has to be kind of a social
contract involved, otherwise it won't work." (61)
Chomsky and other gatekeepers claim to maintain the moral high

ground, but then advocate the eugenics agenda pushed by elite
roundtable groups like the Bilderberg and Club of Rome. How can
Chomsky claim to be an advocate for the Third World while
simultaneously pushing for the managed murder agenda favored by
Henry Kissinger?"
Gun Control
Another one of the great successes of the Left gatekeeper has been
pushing for unconstitutional gun control agenda through their
publications like The Nation, Z Magazine, The Progressive, and their
internet kin at DemocracyNow! & *********. It is a great
achievement of propaganda when the supposed radicals "opposing
Bush" call for a completely disarmed American populace and
inflated budget for BATF thugs in ski masks. Chomsky mock s those
who support the Constitutionally endowed right to bear arms. In
fact, he says it doesn't exist:
"It's pretty clear that, taken literally, the Second Amendment

doesn't permit people to have guns. But laws are never taken
literally, including amendments to the Constitution or constitutional
rights. Laws permit what the tenor of the times interprets them as
permitting."
(Secrets, Lies, and Democracy)

Then later in the interview, Chomsky is asked if guns are a proper

way to respond to government tyranny. He responds as follows:
"As for guns being the way to respond to this, that's outlandish.
First of all, this is not a weak Third World country. If people have
pistols, the government has tanks. If people get tanks, the
government has atomic weapons. There's no way to deal with these
issues by violent force, even if you think that that's morally
legitimate.
Guns in the hands of American citizens are not going to make the
country more benign. They're going to make it more brutal,
ruthless and destructive. So while one can recognize the motivation
that lies behind some of the opposition to gun control, I think it's
sadly misguided."
(Secrets, Lies and Democracy)
It would be one thing to hear such rhetoric out of the Fabian

socialists in the Democratic party. But to have the supposed "fringe
radicals" saying there is no second amendment and advocating gun
seizures is remarkable. And because of globalist infiltration of the
left, this policy once favored by Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and other mass
murderers has found a comfortable home. Hence it has become
common to hear activists protesting the Iraq quagmire while
simultaneously calling for gun control.
Environmental Front Groups
As masters of propaganda, the Globalists have uses their Left

Gatekeepers to push eugenics and population control as necessary
for the environment. This has been accomplished through the
phony environmental movement and Peak Oil fabrications.
The Club of Rome, a globalist front group created in 1968,

immediately began calling for population reduction under the guise
of environmentalism. Other fronts like the World Wildlife Fund,
managed by the aforementioned Prince Philip, vocally push for
population control while seizing large swaths of land for "Mother
Earth." Other pet projects such as the Kyoto Protocol, which would
give the UN total control of energy resources, have floundered.
Past WWF board members have included Bilderberg founder Prince

Bernhard, Hollinger media gopher and Bilderberg member Conrad
Black, Shell chairman John Loudon, King Juan Carlos of Spain,
Prince Henrik of Denmark, and accused drug dealer Henry Keswick.
Chomsky is one of the many re-direct agents who use the real
environmental pollution problems to push for a fascist takeover by
a world government. Much like the ideas discussed in the Report
From Iron Mountain, he uses the threat of global warming to justify
totalitarian control:

"Suppose it was discovered tomorrow that the greenhouse effects

has been way understimated, and that the catastrophic effects are
actually going to set in 10 years from now, and not 100 years from
now or something.
Well, given the state of the popular movements we have today,

we'd probably have a fascist takeover-with everybody agreeing to
it, because that would be the only method for survival that anyone
could think of. I'd even agree to it, because there's just no other
alternatives right now."
(Understanding Power, 388)
Here is Noam Chomsky, openly advocating a fascist takeover

because the ends justify the means. This is classic problem-reaction-
solution programming, as he points to the real threat of pollution
and then offers the solution of tyranny
Peak Oil
As previously stated, the environmental movement was funded and

amplified by Globalist oil, banking, and drug cartels, with specific
help from the Rockefeller Foundation. The WWF, along with other
phony NGO's like the Sierra Club and Greenpeace consistently call
for population reduction. Additionally these groups push the flat
earth thesis of "Peak Oil," predicting that oil supplies will soon run
out and of course...require massive worldwide population
reductions.
Chomsky posted an entry called "Peak Oil" on his blog in June,

2004, writing the following: "The basic theory is incontrovertible.
The only questions have to do with timing and cost."
Then in a radio interview with Steve Scherr, Chomsky said the

following of Peak Oil:
"There's another side to this, there's a sense in which it's

advantageous if the oil peak is earlier. The reason why is it will
compel the world, primarily the U.S. here, to move toward
something
like sustainable energy. If there's unbounded amounts of
hydrocarbons, we're just going to destroy the environment for
human life or most biological life, so the earlier the peak is, in some
respects - yes, it could be catastrophic, it could also be beneficial."
The "beneficial" aspects Chomsky discusses are likely the resulting

population control and starvation that would ensue from such a
shortage.
But, in reality, oil is abiotic and constantly regenerating. This, while

huge wells go untapped in Russia, Equatorial Guinea, Nigeria,
Sudan, Cuba, Indonesia, Iraq, Alaska, Venezuela, Bolivia, Norway,
and the Gulf of Mexico. Additionally, refinery capacity has been

deliberately shut down by the oil oligopoly in order to create

artificial supply shortages. Market prices are controlled by the Anglo-
American cartel and they intend to use this as a vehicle for
engineered crises. At this years Bilderberg meeting Henry Kissinger
reportedly predicted $100 a barrel oil within a year. The only
possible result is a complete worldwide depression.
It is within the "radical" Left that horror stories of diminishing oil

find their home. Even within the 9-11 truth movement, authors like
Mike Ruppert and Nafeez Ahmed have attempted to attach Peak Oil
as the reason for government engineering of 9-11 and the wars in
the Middle East. By polluting the activist movements with Peak Oil
lies, the Globalists have created an army of strong advocates for $5
a gallon gasoline.
Project for the New American Century (PNAC)
Another triumph of Chomsky's disinfo campaign has been the active

denial of the The Project for the New American Century (PNAC), a
neocon group that published radical statements calling for world
war, population control, and a worldwide police state back in 2000.
The signatures on the documents included Dick Cheney and cabinet
members like Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Armitage, Dov Zakheim,
Donald Rumsfeld, Richard Perle, and Eliot Abrams.
It was Zakheim who previously ran Systems Planning Inc., which

made remote-control software for commercial airliners. Also as
comptroller of the Pentagon, he lost over $3 trillion of taxpayer
money without explanation. Yet his corruption was not singular;
after Bush took his figurehead position in the stolen election of
2000, all of the PNAC radicals became the architects of 9-11 and
purveyors of pre-war lies about Iraq.
Their infamous "Rebuilding America's Defenses" document,

produced in 2000 before 9-11, reads like prophecy, calling for
theater wars against Iraq, Iran, and North Korea. They also
admitted that "Further, the process of transformation, even if it
brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some
catastrophic and catalyzing event - like a new Pearl Harbor."
September 11, anyone?
They also openly called for killer viruses to wipe out large sectors of
the human population. The document states: "[A]dvanced forms of
biological warfare that can 'target' specific genotypes may
transform biological warfare from the realm of terror to a politically
useful tool."
How can Chomsky and his kin ignore the statements of the PNAC
cabal, whose mad plans for world domination read like the lost
chapters of Mein Kampf?
If the Left Gatekeepers won't discuss these published documents,

how can we expect them to research the true history of AIDS and

the potential emerging avian flu? Should we be surprised when they

fail to mention the 60 plus dead microbiologists after 9-11, many of
them leading researchers in emerging viruses? Should we look to
Chomsky to find an expose of the heavy metals and biological
agents in chemtrails?
Isreal/Zionists
Many authors of the PNAC documents were radical Zionists linked to

the Likud party in Israel, who presented similar plans to Prime
Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in 1996 ("Policy for a Clean Break").
Chomsky, the supposed critic of Israel, has been praised by

followers for his books like "The Fateful Triangle" which detail many
Israeli war crimes. Furthermore he often criticizes the Isreali-linked
network dominating U.S. foreign policy. But as always, Chomsky
again avoids the hardcore issues, instead speaking in glittering
generalities.
For example, he remains mute on the "Office of Special Plans," the

ad-hoc nerve center of pre-war Iraq propaganda, run of Cheney's
office. It was here that Zionist moles like Paul Wolfowitz, Larry
Franklin, Douglas Feith, Stephen Cambone, and Richard Perle
cooked up phony WMD threats, links 9-11, and collaboration
between secular Iraq and Al-Qaeda.
Those same gophers, many of them assets of the Israeli Likud party
and intelligence syndicate Mossad, operated a two-way spy
network; just as manufactured propaganda flowed from Mossad to
the OSP moles, U.S. secrets on Iran secretly floated into Sharon's
war cabinet.
In the middle of all the traitorous espionage was the mafia don of
all lobbying cartels, the Israeli-controlled AIPAC. Top level AIPAC
officers like Steve Rosen often acted as a go-between, then using
that same fake intelligence to strong-arm the Congress where they
control both sides..
All parties mentioned, from Rosen to Franklin, are now under

investigation from the FBI and Justice Department for the
aforementioned crimes. Major articles in the Washington Post now
admit Franklin, working with Feith and Cambone, was passing
secrets to Israel through AIPAC. Chomsky has never spoken
publically about any of these topics, and certainly not the Mossad
involvement in false-flag terror events like the USS Liberty and
connections to 9-11.
Vote Fraud
When he isn't busy covering up the facts surrounding 9-11 or the

crimes of the CIA, Chomsky spends time actively denying the vote
fraud of 2004, which ushered in another term for the neocon

dictatorship. Chomsky often brags that he does not vote in

presidential elections, noting that both sides are owned by
corporations. But he has openly denied the role of electronic voting
fraud in 2000 and the more prominent example of 2004. In 2004,
exit polls in Ohio and Florida showed John Kerry winning by a
comfortable margin, but mysteriously numbers showed a Bush
victory.
The room for vote fraud was immense. The Secretary of State in
Ohio, Ken Blackwell, managed Bush's campaign in the state, much
like Katherine Harris did in Florida during 2000. Diebold, the
company which makes most of the electronic voting machines, is
crawling with former CIA and NSA members and used convicted
felons to design their software. The Diebold CEO Walden O'Dell is a
Bush Pioneer and wrote in a GOP fundraising letter that he was
"committed to delivering electoral votes to the President."
The Diebold code is private and has been exposed as being easily
hacked by Bev Harris at BlackBoxVoting.org. In North Carolina and
Georgia, machines were throwing out 5,000 block votes for Bush
without explanation. But none of this seems to interest Chomsky,
who finds the accusations of vote fraud to be without merit:
"I don't find the evidence compelling. An inaccurate count in itself is

a random effect. As for collusion, yes, there are concerns, but
concerns are not evidence. The problem that concerns you may or
may not be real, but in my view, even if we take the worst case
scenario, it is still marginal --
just as the Florida chads were marginal in the 2000 elections. I
know of no reason to suppose that electronic voting will have more
than a random effect."
Chomsky and the gatekeepers cannot discuss the fraud of electronic

voting because it would awaken too many people to the total
bankruptcy of the system. It is important that college activists at
Berkeley think their vote for Ralph Nader counted. If they knew the
entire game was rigged like a Don King boxing match, too many
illusions would break down.
World Government
Chomsky plays the left gatekeeper role perfectly, presenting a false

dialectic of the evil American imperialist as the antagonist
aggressor, contrasted by the savior UN world government as the
benevolent deux ex machina.
This false propaganda model, pitting the imperialist U.S. against the
godly UN fits the classic MO of "poisoning the well." Essentially,
Chomsky acts as a re-direct agent: he acknowledges many crimes
of American foreign policy and then offers world government and
international law as the solution.
The Globalists have long been masters of such a paradigm. In the

early part of the 20th century, the same Wall Street bankers crafted
the doctrines of Communism. While posing as a workers' liberation
theology, it pushed for a central bank, world army, world court,
world government, and the abolition of religion, private property,
and the nation state.
Like other "anarchist" agent provacatuers such as John Zerzan (who

helped train violent mobs to ruin the Seattle WTO protests in
1999), Chomsky has called for the elimination of private property.
He argues, "that some form of council communism is the natural
form of revolutionary socialism in an industrial society."
In fact, Chomsky goes further, pushing for the elimination of the

nation-state and national sovereignty to be replaced by a one world
government:
"Well in my view what would be ultimately necessary would be a

breakdown of the nation-state system- because I think that's not a
viable system. It's not necessarily the natural form of human
organization." (314)
Chomsky, echoing rhetoric from the phony Marxist doctrines, is

essentially endorsing the major goal of the world elite: the
breakdown of national sovereignty in favor of a one-world
government.
Noam Chomsky is a shameless world government pimp, and has

heaped lavish praise on men like Bertrand Russell who helped
designed the New World Order. Lucky for him, Chomsky has been
publicly rewarded for his faithful service to the UN cause. In
Febraury 2004, he received the Award of Excellence at the UN
Correspondents Association Club in New York. Previous winners
included Globalist assets like Mikhail Gorbachev.
UNESCO
Since Chomsky is an avowed global government cheerleader, is it

any surprise he supports some of the worst UN programs? U.N.E.S.
C.O, the nightmare UN vehicle posing as an "aid" organization, finds
a strong advocate with Chomsky.
Long a pet project of the Malthusian-obsessed Rockefeller clan, U.N.

E.S.C.O projects include filtering pro-UN propaganda into American
schools and with the goal of eventually merging the curriculum with
Mexico and Canada in the proposed Panamerican Union; and seizing
control of huge swaths of American federal lands through "UN World
Heritage" sites. The first U.N.E.S.C.O chief Julian Huxley said during
his tenure in 1948:
"The general philosophy of UNESCO should be a scientific world

humanism, global in extent... It can stress the transfer of full
sovereignty from separate nations to a world political organization
Political unification in some sort of world government will be

requiredto help the emergence of a single world culture."
But Noam Chomsky, ever the advocate of the UN, endorses the
goals of U.N.E.S.C.O wholeheartedly and lambastes the evil
conservatives who question its motives:
"U.N.E.S.C.O - because it's working for the Third World-we

practically put them out of business. The United States launched a
huge propaganda campaign against U.N.E.S.C.O. in the 1970's and
Eighties- it was full of outrageous lies, totally fabricated, but
nevertheless it sufficed to eliminate the Third World orientation of U.
N.E.S.C.O. and make it stop doing things it was doing around the
Third World, like improving literacy and health care and so on. (86)
PROPAGANDA
Many credit Chomsky's "Manufacturing Consent" with being the

premier study of government propaganda. In Leftist circles it is
hailed as a Bible, a rite of passage for any true activist to
understand the system. But again, Chomsky's work, while
appearing radical, is actually gatekeeper disinfo.
Chomsky spends the entire book attempting to prove that

newspapers diminish American war crimes while exaggerating those
of foreign governments. Such a point is easy to prove, and he does
so in his own droll and methodical method.
Yet he stops there. Chomsky does not discuss the real elephant in
the room: direct CIA collaboration with media outlets and
journalists beginning in the 1950's under Operation Mockingbird.
Chomsky avoids writing about Mockingbird, the CIA program which

covertly put major publishing, newspaper, and media outlets, as
well as thousands of individual reporters under direct agency
control. Agents included Ben Bradlee at Newsweek, Henry Luce of
Time and Life, and Arthur Sulzberger of The New York Times, Alfred
Friendly of the Washington Post, and Joseph Harrison Christian
Science Monitor.
Shouldn't this a significant development for a historian authoring an

honest study of propaganda? After all who is to say that this
program doesn't still continue? The Bush administration has
admitted spending hundreds of millions on fake newscasts and
paying individual reporters like Armstrong Williams to push talking
points in newspapers. What about the times they haven't been
caught? Exactly how many mainstream commentary and news
outlets work with the CIA and White House?
Perhaps this is the reason why the scripts of the nightly news on
ABC, CBS, and NBC are almost exactly the same, while Newsweek,
Time, and the New York Times push the elitist agenda on cue (as
seen most prominently in the run up to the war in Iraq).

Furthermore Chomsky does not discuss collaboration between the

Bilderberg Committee and the major media outlets. Shouldn't this
concern the so-called radical anarchist, when media editors attend
secret meetings calling for eugenics, world government, and a
cashless society control grid?
Owners, editors and writers from Time, Newsweek, Economist,

Washington Post, New York Times, CBS, NBC, ABC and every news
outlet in between have attended the world government meetings.
Further, what about the influence of the CFR, which openly calls for
a Panamerican Union and the end of American national
sovereignty? The CFR counts amongst its members major editors,
owners, and journalists in media outlets from PBS to CBS, CNN to
News Corp., New Republic to U.S. News and World Report.
Aren't these the reasons that journalists push the propaganda

Chomsky identifies? In "Manufacturing Consent," Chomsky takes
limited aim at an easy target. But he fails to dig deeper and
examine the actual reasons why the propaganda permeates the
mainstream media opinion. Clearly the influence of the CIA, CFR,
Bilderberg Committee, and White House have turned major media
outlets into little more than docile commissars. Furthermore, the
interlocking interests of media owners with the military industrial
complex have served to sway content even further.
Chomsky's "classic" study is little more than a limited hangout

project. He is merely shooting the messengers, blaming journalistic
"bias" while failing to follow the trail of money, power, corruption,
and black propaganda. Instead, he identifies some passive
propaganda and is hailed as a brilliant analyst and purveyor of truth
by the Leftist minions. But his true achievement is ignoring the
reasons behind the lies, as he executes a masterful bait and switch
tactic. Is it a coincidence that Chomsky's co-author for
"Manufacturing Consent," Edward Herman, has also denied any
government complicity in 9-11?
While claiming to expose propaganda, Chomsky has perfected the

art.
09-29-2005 10:45 PM

xtratabasco part 3
Senior Member
part 3
Location: CONCLUSIONS
Posts: 2869
Chomsky and his gatekeeper contemporaries are perfect devices for
the Globalists because they help define the limits of the false left-
right paradigm. Much like David Horowitz, a former Leftist,
currently does for the radical Right. Is it a surprise that he edited a
book called "The Anti-Chomsky Reader?" It should only be natural
since they both serve the same role of gatekeeper.
Puppets like Horowitz, Michael Savage, Sean Hannity, Michele

Malkin, William Kristol, William F. Buckley and their kin serve as
Right Gatekeepers. They criticize the failures of liberals and
Democrats and then call for Bush worshipping, illegal wars, fascist
government, and giving up all of our Constitutional rights for
"security." In doing so they pollute the conservative movement and
help marginalize true conservatives voices like Alex Jones, Ron
Paul, and groups like Gun Owners of America.
Chomsky and his gatekeepers do the same thing. They write about
the crimes of American imperialism and then call for population
control, gun control, global government under the UN, and a totally
socialized Brave New World society.
The Left gatekeepers must manage the delicate tight rope act of
appearing radical while in actuality calling for worldwide
enslavement and murder. In all likelihood they get a little help from
the propaganda scientists at the venerable Tavistock institute in
London and adjuncts of the CIA's Mockingbird program; clearly the
Left's denial of 9-11 truths has been too coordinated too have
simply been a freak occurrence.
In the mainstream it is the same with the staged battles between

pawns like Democratic operative Al Franken and Republican Ann
Coulter.
All of this is designed to create a tight spectrum, a masterfully

crafted false paradigm to enslave the mind and give the people
false choices. Thus at either extreme of the spectrum and all points
in between, from Chomsky to Horowitz, one finds they are
endorsing total enslavement and global government. This is the
genius of the New World Order, their complete castration of free
political will through carefully managed propaganda agents. The
rest of the media jackals serve as willing accomplices, mere useful
idiots and power hungry sycophants with massive egos and more
concern for their career than the truth.
Noam Chomsky and his Left Gatekeeper associates must be actively

exposed for their role in the propaganda system. For nearly 40
years since they infiltrated the activist movement, these Left

gatekeepers have made the activist movements impotent,

territorial, confused, and ineffective. Thus instead of understanding
their enslavement, many activists end up
calling for tighter chains by echoing Chomsky's
calls for gun control, population control, and
a world government under the UN. They end up critiquing the Iraq
disaster without seeing government involvement in 9-11 and the
CIA/MI-6/Mossad creation known as Al-Qaeda.
Noam Chomsky and his clique of re-direct agents mercilessly push

real activists into dead-end solutions. Until they are vocally
exposed, the Left will continue to remain a managed asset of the
New World Order.
Comment
Douglas Herman
9-29-5
Like a great prosecuting attorney, Abrahamson dissects Chomskey

until we see a cardboard figure of "dissent." The darling of the Left--
Chomsky--is like a shallow desert lake glittering in the sun, a mile
wide and an inch deep. For someone considered highly educated
and an intellectual genius, Chomsky comes across as a close-
minded man and lacking in the requisite skepticism of a truly great
mind.
The Left has been duped almost, but not quite, as much as the
Right. The curious (overwhelming in sheer numbers) discrepancies
of 9-11 and JFK, of Wellstone and Oklahoma City, befuddle the
small minds of the Left as much as the Right.
Some people are willing traitors and some people are pathetic
accomplices, noting the crime but mis-identifying the culprits, either
out of woeful ignorance or willingness. Either way, criminals.
Abrahamson would convict them all in a court of law - if ever one
existed.
Douglas Herman
09-29-2005 10:46 PM


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COPWATCH.com Forum - Policewomen: What percentage are macho bull-dykes?
COPWATCH.com Forum > NEWS SECTION > News: PROPAGANDA > Policewomen:
What percentage are macho bull-dykes?
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Regicide Policewomen: What percentage are macho bull-dykes?

Senior Member
Policewomen: An evolution in title, duties

Location: Our Town, USA By Michael Ko
Posts: 298
Wednesday, March 24, 2004 - Page updated at 12:00 A.M.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ht..._women24m0.html
Terri MacMillan graduated from the police academy in 1975,

becoming part of the first class of female recruits to go through the
same application process and training and fitness tests as the men.
But it didn't mean acceptance on the streets.
"It was a test every day," MacMillan recalled of her early days

patrolling the West Precinct for the Seattle Police Department.

"They (male officers) were going to see what you were going to do.
They gawked a lot. ... They didn't know if they were supposed to
open the door for us.
"We knew we had to be athletic, motivated, driven to take on a

challenge like this."
The history of women in Seattle law enforcement is the subject of a

symposium today at City Hall, 600 Fourth Ave. Photos and displays
will be available for public viewing throughout the day. State
Attorney General Christine Gregoire and Seattle Mayor Greg Nickels
will speak.
Women have been working as officers with the Seattle Police

Department since 1912, according to records kept at the Seattle
Metropolitan Police Museum in Pioneer Square.
But female officers were assigned almost exclusively to social-work

cases: juveniles, runaways or family issues. It wasn't until 1975
that the city officially reclassified their job titles, from policewoman
to police officer.
MacMillan, now sergeant of recruiting and staff development, said

she relied on persistence, willpower and a good sense of humor to
survive. At the same time, she knew she was establishing a
precedent.
"There were frustrating times and incidents," said MacMillan, who

grew up in Lynnwood. "But we didn't want to screw up, and we
didn't dare screw up. We were paving a path for the future of
women in patrol and we knew that, absolutely."
One of the most difficult obstacles, MacMillan said, was proving to

male officers that women could handle themselves physically.
"We had to build that trust that we could back them up if they were
in trouble with a suspect," she said. "They had to see it for
themselves. Because their wives couldn't do this job and their
mothers hadn't done this job before."
MacMillan worked as a detective for many years before being

promoted to sergeant in 1996.
In the 1940s and 1950s, female Seattle officers worked out of a

separate division called the "women's bureau."
In 1955, women were authorized to wear police uniforms: skirt,

jacket, hat and heels.
Judy Thomson, manager of the police museum, said that instead of

a police belt, female officers carried leather shoulder purses with a
built-in holster and room for handcuffs and bullets.
In 1973, the first two full-time female officers were hired for patrol

duty. In 1974, a woman was promoted to patrol sergeant for the

first time. And in 1975, female officers began wearing belts and
pants, same as the men.
Still, Thomson said rumors persisted that women were not serious
about police work, but just looking for husbands.
Currently, of approximately 1,250 sworn officers in the department,

176 are women, including 20 sergeants, two lieutenants, one
captain and one assistant chief.
When MacMillan was hired, there were 20 other women in the

department.
Officer Suzanne Long, who has been with the Seattle police for
about five years, said, "I don't feel the pressures that maybe
Sergeant MacMillan felt. I feel equal to my male counterparts. ...
I've never felt being a woman in this department has hindered me."
03-24-2004 03:53 PM
MikeTx I personally think women responding to calls and working a beat

Moderator are a danger to themselves and their partners. 99 percent of
women are no physical match for most men. I think they should be
Registered: Feb 2004 limited to non potenialy violent jobs, as should women in the armed
Location: services. Plus, you have the "man and woman" factor to deal with.
Posts: 27
But since most cops are politically correct automatons, they'll
disagree.
__________________
Bill of Rights - Void where prohibited by law
03-24-2004 09:25 PM
Matt1 quote:
Senior Member
Originally posted by MikeTx
Registered: Feb 2004 I personally think women responding to calls and
Location: working a beat are a danger to themselves and
Posts: 1818 their partners. 99 percent of women are no
physical match for most men. I think they should
be limited to non potenialy violent jobs, as should
women in the armed services. Plus, you have the
"man and woman" factor to deal with.
But since most cops are politically correct

automatons, they'll disagree.

I tend to agree with you about women in the military and in Law
Enforcement and I am an officer.
03-24-2004 09:45 PM
MikeTx Thanks.
Moderator
__________________
Registered: Feb 2004 Bill of Rights - Void where prohibited by law
Location:
Posts: 27
03-24-2004 10:11 PM
nealcassady234 I have seen some female officers who were good looking.
Senior Member
:confused: Some of the women who are cops...are really good

looking? Bambi Bambenek in Milwaukee....Jean Masse who worked
Location:
Posts: 654 for SD Highway Patrol....and others.
And ...having a good looking female cop creates a hell of an

interesting dynamic. It's hard to be rude or hate a good looking
woman? Have you ever seen a good looking woman in uniform?
It creates some sort of brain lock in which "it is almost impossible

to be rude to a good looking woman who might put you in
handcuffs and frisk you?"
You know....this could be a hell of a weapon...and propaganda

victory if the cops were smart enough to used good looking women
to make them look good and avoid their much deserved reputation
as "totally miserable pr-cks" who make organized crime look like a
4-H Social Club.
03-24-2004 10:30 PM

Matt1 Re: I have seen some female officers who were good looking.
Senior Member
quote:
Location:
Originally posted by nealcassady234
Posts: 1818
:confused: Some of the women who are cops...are
really good looking? Bambi Bambenek in
Milwaukee....Jean Masse who worked for SD
Highway Patrol....and others.
Didn't Bambenek pose in Playboy years ago?
03-25-2004 01:52 AM
nealcassady234 I think she did...and when she entered the police she was a babe
Senior Member
:confused: I also have a copy of Maxxum magazine that has a

beutiful female copster posing seductively. Even Sioux Falls Police
Location:
Posts: 654 has an assistant chief who is an older blonde babe?
This recruitment of good looking women for police work is a hell of

a good idea. It's hard to hate the local cops when they promoted a
good looking woman to assistant chief.
Also the police chief in town looks like a real white collar
professional guy....not the usual "redneck bull" alpha male.
The local prosecutor, Dave Nelson, is known and respected as fair

man who does not engage in Win at all costs sort of witchhunts.
Randy Sample seems like a decent, level headed guy who is not a
zealot or a terrible witchhunter. Some of the other prosecutors
seem like "bitter, miserable, punitive" ball busters though.
And officer Christensen, who pulled me over in Sept 2003, seemed

like a pretty good, by the book type of copster. Not a bad guy...just
an honest guy who thought he had probable cause.
1) About Bambi Bembenek....looks like she really got framed by

Milwaukee PD. Here boyfriend was a disgruntled husband who
seems to be behind the murder of his estranged wife...so the gun
was planted to make Bambi look like the shooter. I terrible saga
about coverups and how easy it is to frame just about anybody for
any crime?!
2) If you think about it...."cops can plant drugs or a smoking gun in

anybody's car"....and the entire community will be stringing up the
lynch rope?! Alot of people don't have alibis because "they are not

in the company of someone else, all the time?!" With this kind of
power in the hands of the police with no way of proving one's
innocence...."you got to wonder about whether sodium pentathole
or amytal should be used?!"
3) If your innocent...."you should be lunging for a way to prove

your innocence...therefore, you should be begging for a polygraph
or sodium pentathole." In 1992, SFPD wouldn't give me a polygraph
that I agreed to take on the spot?!
4) The people who really are at risk of being framed are people with
priors and criminal history and no ability to testify on the stand
without having their past crimes brought up. And these guys do get
targeted alot. "Why let a crime occur that the cops can use to take
somebody out of society," seems to be the attitude in cases where
no forensic evidence ties the suspect to the crime.
5) Of course....forensic science is only as credible as the integrity of

the people gathering the evidence as well as the scientist testifying.
A book about the FBI Crime Lab showed that pro prosecution
witnesses were making assertions that did not pass "peer review"
or lead to "misleading statements about matchs" when in fact the
match was not a perfect match.
6) The FBI has relied for decades on hair and fiber evidence under
the theory that "microscopic fibers" travel with the perp from either
their home to the crime scene or to their home from the crime
scene. This is great as long as you can trust cops who can easily
take a carpet fiber and move it?! So...whoever is in charge of the
evidence is in charge of the outcome of the trial?!
If this "planting of evidence" was better known, "I think alot of

potential criminals would refrain from crimes knowing they could be
framed anytime the cop's suspect them." The truth could work as a
deterrent to crime?!
7) In Austin...we had deputy Keith Ruiz shot during a No Knock

raid. The shot was supposed to have been fired through a door's
window. The door somehow dissappeared and was not examined for
forensic evidence by the defence?! How do cops get away with
loseing a door?! I think the fatal shot was fired by a member of the
assault team....who then figured, "since the homeowner did fire a
shot, we'll just charge him with actually killing the deputy?"
8) Also....at Waco....The Texas Rangers said they saw FBI carting

off the Davidian church front door that defence attorney Dick
DeGeurian described as having "bullet holes entering the door and
none leaving the church?" Thus....it appears that one Davidian's
story was correct when he said that "Koresh came to the door to
make peace and let The BATF inside, when BATF started
shooting?!" The Davidians, like most home owners, "fired in self
defence" but were framed as the aggressors?! This type of spin
control where "cops can do no wrong" is very disturbing and all too
common. The public is far too gullible and far too willing to believe

anything the cop's say?!
9) Notice how at OK CITY...the Murray building was demolished

shortly after the explosion before defence counsel could file a
motion to preserve the evidence for traces of C4 placed on the
inside of the building like retired Air Force General Partin said
happened?!
10) In the O.J. case....the defence did a good job showing that
blood on the fence was not found until latter when Van Atter was
walking around with a vile of O.J.'s blood?!
11) In 1990 Judi Bari (Earth First organizer) had an FBI bomb blow
up in her car. San Fran FBI bomb experts were in the neighborhood
and immediatly showed up to intentionally misread the evidence
claiming the bomb was in the back of the car when it was obvious
the bomb was under the seat?! This actually led to state
prosecutors dropping all charges weeks later after they saw the
photos did not match the FBI's bogus expert opinion?! I point out
that prior to this, the San Fran FBI held "bomb school" at a timber
company site where the FBI practised building bombs and reading
bomb scenes with Oakland PD dutifullly being prepared to follow
The FBI's expert opinions?!
12) This is about the arrogance of the police. This is about the
gullibility of the public to believe the police. This is further proof of
the media's failure to give focus to police crimes?!
03-25-2004 02:56 AM
Matt1 Re: I think she did...and when she entered the police she was a babe
Senior Member
quote:
Location:
Originally posted by nealcassady234
Posts: 1818
8) Also....at Waco....The Texas Rangers said they
saw FBI carting off the Davidian church front door
that defence attorney Dick DeGeurian described
as having "bullet holes entering the door and
none leaving the church?" Thus....it appears that
one Davidian's story was correct when he said
that "Koresh came to the door to make peace and
let The BATF inside, when BATF started
shooting?!" The Davidians, like most home
owners, "fired in self defence" but were framed
as the aggressors?! This type of spin control
where "cops can do no wrong" is very disturbing
and all too common. The public is far too gullible
and far too willing to believe anything the cop's
say?!

Waco was dicked up from the start. Koresh was said to go jogging
on a regular basis and should have been picked up then. Instead
they waited until he was back to his compound and we all know
what happened then.
03-25-2004 04:07 AM
nealcassady234 Also...on Waco?

Senior Member
:confused: I read something else on Waco...in which BATF had

some undercover operatives living nearby to chum along and gain
Location:
Posts: 654 intell.
These guys shot guns with the Davidians....and somehow Koresh

got the feeling that they were copsters...so "he did offer to let them
inspect his guns for any violations."
If you read the warrant....BATF was looking for guns converted into
machine guns...and some other stuff.
The raid was a PR show on some people who "had some bizarre
habits or beliefs or lifestyles." It's sort of common to demonize
someone who is different from you or your culture's view of what is
right.
There are alot of lessons in the whole Waco story that covers
Constitutional Rights....to police perceptions of reality....to the
scapegoat's perception of reality....to pyschodynamics of group
violence....to stand off negotiations...to FBI mentality....to the legal
consequences of the whole thing.
Funny how the Davidians got prosecuted....when....it seems that

some Davidians fought in self defence....and others (according to a
book written by one of the Davidian survivors) "hid under their beds
and did not take up arms."
Looking at The FBI's handling of this, you realize that the San
Antonio SAC was mentally incompetent for this fact pattern. The
team of negotiators all warned the SAC not to rattle their cage....
yet....The FBI cut off utilities, played annoying music, used spot
lights, used Bradley fighting vehicles to run over the Davidian toys?
All of this while the public watched knowing that 26 kids were also
being harassed?!
If The FBI had not have practised the old "attack the victim" game
calling Koresh a pedophile (despite the fact that Texas Dept. of

Child Protective Services investigated finding nothing) than I think

their would have been more of an uproar.
Of course....uh...."you're not supposed to shoot back at cops when

they break down your door"....but....uh...."sometimes people feel
that the home is their castle"....and....uh...."I'm not too sure about
that warrant." The warrant kind of looks like a pretext to do a PR
raid.
It kind of looks like, "Koresh would have allowed a peaceful search

of the weapons?!" It looks like "Koresh came to the door after being
tipped off to let BATF come in and do a search....and BATF (fearing
they were dealing with well armed wackos) opened up on Koresh at
the door?! I can't blame the Davidians for returning the fire...."they
probably thought BATF was gonna shoot them?!"
There is also some testimony on "the cops shooting at the

Davidians when the church was on fire....and shooting from the
helicopter?!" Another issue is "whether that CS gas is flammable in
high enough concentrations?!" That sure could explain why that
church went up so quick in all areas in which the gas was
introduced?!" Also, "whether that gas is toxic to five year old little
girls?"
These No Knock searches should only be employed in very limited

circumstances.....too dangerous for the homeowner and the cops.
03-25-2004 04:04 PM
Mack I have a number of problems with the idea of lady cops.

Assistant Moderator
1) I think that male cops often act extra-aggressively around lady
cops in an effort to be the alpha male and earn the admiration of
the lady cop. This leads to obvious negative consequences for the
suspect.
2) I think lady cops often feel compelled to try and be "one of the
guys". Thus they consciously attempt to out-macho the guys,
Registered: Jul 2003 leading to behaviour which can be worse than the average male
Location: cop. The same phenomenon can sometimes be observed with black
Posts: 5215 cops- ie both are putative outsiders trying to fit in, and both often
have big chips on their shoulders.
3) As already mentioned, lady cops are no match for a man in a

physical altercation, so I suspect that lady cops may be more willing
to escalate to the use of deadly force when confronted with a
potentially violent situation, especially when backup is not in the
immediate vicinity. I would be very interested in finding accurate
stats comparing the frequency with which deadly force is used by
male and female cops respectively.

4) There are indeed many many bull-dyke lesbian cops. In fact,

there is an entire subculture of them in many big-city police
departments. These cops, in my opinion, are some of the worst of
the worst. See #2 above, in spades. They often seem bound and
determined to have their revenge on a society which largely rejects
them.
__________________
misconduct
generally."

misconduct.
03-25-2004 06:02 PM
Matt1 females are much better in dealing with children and female rape
Senior Member victims. I will give them credit for that.
Registered: Feb 2004 Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Location:
Posts: 1818
03-25-2004 09:23 PM
nealcassady234 I volunteer to be frisked by good looking female cops.

Senior Member
:confused: I don't mind if a good looking female cop wants to talk

to me or frisk me...I just hope she takes her time and does a
Location:
Posts: 654 thorough job.
Good looking female cops could violate someone's Fourth

Amendment rights, smile, and not even piss you off?!
03-26-2004 07:32 PM

BLUE IN N.Y.C. Matt1

Senior Member
I'm SURPRISED at you! I've been on the job well over 25 years! I
Registered: Apr 2004 did have to be as competent and beyond my male colleagues! To
Location: date I've exceeded my own expectations!
Posts: 667
More than that I kept my "personal" life separate from the job. It is
difficult but can be done.
Women can excel in EVERY FACET of Police Work not only

"specialized areas."
The concept that women should be relegated to "female" type work

is ridiculous! Women are far less aggressive in many instances than
males when approaching a violent situation. Women are less apt to
shoot first ask questions later.
The other "archaic concept" is that if a female chooses law

enforcement she MUST BE gay! This only reinforces those males
who are INSECURE about their own Masculinity!
There's no doubt you have gay male & female officers - just as you
have equally inept officers who were hired because the passed a
"test" or were appointed because of "Affirmative Action!"
When I met flack from my male counterparts were when they "felt"
the assignment should've gone to them or the overtime, etc. I
never KNEW males could be such "cry babies!" I always thought
working with men I wouldn't experience the "bitchiness" associated
with the female persuassion! Gee! Was I WRONG! Guys bitch &
moan 1000% MORE than most females!
This pattern is easing somewhat but it'll never be completely

erradicated!
04-26-2004 08:03 PM
duncan and this from the resident expert on dike copsters

Moderator
__________________
Registered: Jul 2003 "I would rather die on my feet fighting rather than live to grovel on my knees." -
Location: Ft. Collins, Colorado General Zapata
Posts: 9017
Appeals
Duncan


04-27-2004 12:21 AM
Matt1 quote:
Senior Member
Originally posted by BLUE IN N.Y.C.
Registered: Feb 2004 Matt1
Location:
Posts: 1818 I'm SURPRISED at you! I've been on the job well
over 25 years! I did have to be as competent and
beyond my male colleagues! To date I've
exceeded my own expectations!
I am very sorry to offend you. I guess my opinion was tainted from

the female officers I worked with. They were very good at handling
children and rape victims to there credit, but not much for backup
when it counted. One actually screwed up so bad as to let
somebody go that was featured on America's Most Wanted. Again, I
am sorry to lump all females into the same category. Please forgive
me and spare me the pistol whipping.
04-27-2004 05:57 AM
duncan I've noticed that when they send a dike cop out they usually send
Moderator male cops with her to protect her.
Registered: Jul 2003 __________________

Location: Ft. Collins, Colorado "I would rather die on my feet fighting rather than live to grovel on my knees." -
Posts: 9017 General Zapata
Appeals
Duncan


04-27-2004 11:54 AM

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preemption makes it LEGAL
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COPWATCH.com Forum - FEDERAL LAW pertaining to scanners:
COPWATCH.com Forum > SCANNER FREQUENCIES > FEDERAL LAW pertaining to

scanners:
Author Thread
GC Marciano FEDERAL LAW pertaining to scanners:

Wire and Electronic Communications Interception and

Interception of Oral Communications
As provided by info at http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/

cybercrime/18usc2511.htm
(g) It shall not be unlawful under this chapter [18 USCS

Registered: Jul 2003 §§ 2510 et seq.] or chapter 121 of this title [18 USCS §§
Location: Chicago, Illinois 2701 et seq.] for any person--
Posts: 9967
(i) to intercept or access an electronic communication
made through an electronic communication system that is
configured so that such electronic communication is
readily accessible to the general public;

(ii) to intercept any radio communication which is

transmitted--
(I) by any station for the use of the general public, or that
relates to ships, aircraft, vehicles, or persons in distress;
(II) by any governmental, law enforcement, civil

defense, private land mobile, or public safety
communications system, including police and fire, readily
accessible to the general public;
(III) by a station operating on an authorized frequency

within the bands allocated to the amateur, citizens band,
or general mobile radio services; or
(IV) by any marine or aeronautical communications

system;
(iii) to engage in any conduct which--
(I) is prohibited by section 633 of the Communications

Act of 1934; or
(II) is excepted from the application of section 705(a) of

the Communications Act of 1934 [47 USCS § 605(a)] by
section 705(b) of that Act [47 USCS § 605(b)];
(iv) to intercept any wire or electronic communication the

transmission of which is causing harmful interference to
any lawfully operating station or consumer electronic
equipment, to the extent necessary to identify the source
of such interference; or
(v) for other users of the same frequency to intercept any

radio communication made through a system that utilizes
frequencies monitored by individuals engaged in the
provision or the use of such system, if such
communication is not scrambled or encrypted.
__________________
Court

agents.
05-08-2007 11:51 PM
Maxima Wouldn't this make the laws in KY and NY that make having a
Moderator scanner in a car illegal, null and void?
Federal law supersedes state law and it specifically says it's not
illegal, so a state shouldn't be able to enforce a state law that
makes them illegal under any circumstances.
Of course I juke woke up, and I may be missing something here,

but it seems likes basic law to me.
__________________
Location: St. Louis, MO “I apprehend no danger to our country from a foreign foe... Our destruction,
Posts: 360 should it come at all, will be from another quarter. From the inattention of the
05-09-2007 12:35 AM
Mack quote:
Assistant Moderator
Federal preemption
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preemption_(law)
In the legal system of the United States, preemption

generally refers to the displacing effect that federal law
will have on a conflicting or inconsistent state law. The
Registered: Jul 2003 Supremacy Clause (Article VI, section 2) of the United
Location: States Constitution states that The Laws of the United
Posts: 5215 States, (which shall be made in Pursuance to the
Constitution), shall be the supreme Law of the land.
Thus, when there is a conflict between a state law and
federal law, the federal law (subject to the Tenth
Amendment and Fifth Amendment and other
Constitutional Law) trumps – or "preempts" – the state
law. The term is also sometimes used to refer to the
displacing effect state laws might have on ordinances
enacted by municipalities.

The term "preemption" is also used in federal statutes

in the context of land, such as in the historic
Preemption Act of 1841, which allowed settlers the
opportunity to legally obtain title to land if a settler
remained on a plot of land for a certain time. This
article does not cover that legal use of the term.
[edit] Types of preemption
Two situations where preemption claims might arise:

express preemption and implied preemption.
1. Express preemption occurs where Congress says

within the statute 'we hereby preempt.' Here, federal
laws are explicitly precluding state and local regulations.
2. Implied preemption has, within itself, three sub-

categories: conflicts preemption, preemption because
state law impedes the achievement of a federal
objective, and preemption because federal law occupies
the field.
* Conflicts preemption is where it is impossible to

comply with both the federal statute and the state or
local law. In this situation, the federal statute must be
followed. It is, however, appropriate to have two laws,
one federal and one state, that differ. The federal law,
in this case, may be a minimum standard, while the
state enacts a law to be more strict. State law,
therefore, would not be preempted. Preemption would
only occur if the federal and state laws were mutually
exclusive.
* The second type of implied preemption is preemption

because state law impedes the achievement of a
federal objective. This type of preemption occurs when
a state or local law interferes with a goal or objective
Congress was trying to attain with a federal statute.
The purpose of each law must be determined and
compared to each other. If both laws are trying to
achieve the same goal, federal law will preempt the
state or local regulation.
* The final type of implied preemption is preemption

because federal law occupies the field. In this situation,
one must look at Congress's intent, and whether the
federal law was meant to be exclusive in that area. The
most common examples are in areas of foreign policy
and immigration for the better of human kind. Implied
preemption has also been held to apply to the Labor
Management Relations Act (LMRA), giving the federal
government the exclusive jurisdiction to resolve Labor
Union versus Employer contract disputes, as well as the

Employee Retirement Income Security Act (ERISA),

giving the federal government exclusive jurisdiction
(with minor exceptions) over enforcement of the
substantive provisions of employer-sponsored Welfare
and Pension Benefit Plans (Cigna v. Calad, 2004).
MORE------->
__________________
misconduct
generally."

misconduct.
05-09-2007 12:40 AM

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COPWATCH.com Forum - Out of band transceivers - Federal-level preemption makes it LEGAL
COPWATCH.com Forum > SCANNER FREQUENCIES > Out of band transceivers -

Federal-level preemption makes it LEGAL
Author Thread
GC Marciano Out of band transceivers - Federal-level preemption makes it LEGAL

Below is a FEDERAL-level preemption of lower-level state and

local laws which regulate the reception of public service
frequencies. (PR 91-36) In most cases, licensed amateur radio
operators (hams) are exempted in the laws; but not always.
The following document makes your out-of-band (OOB) capable

mobile transceivers legal everywhere in the U.S.
Registered: Jul 2003 It is a Memorandum, Opinion and ORDER, and it carries the
Posts: 9967
same level of authority as actual law, and it must be obeyed.
This document has been out for nearly 15 years, and yet most
people are not even aware of it's existence.
In it, the FCC holds that lower-level laws restricting the usage

out-of-band-capable transceivers by licensed hams are

preeempted by federal law. Should your transceiver ever be
confiscated for scanning out-of-band of the ham frequencies,
use this, and and it should get you out of trouble. I recommend
printing out the PDF version (link provided below). The PDF
version comes straight from the FCC Record. It's likely that this
STILL will not prevent a ticket and/or confiscation; but now you
have something to take with you to the courtroom at least.
(Note that PR 91-36 ONLY applies to the use of OOB-capable

amateur transceivers, and not to actual scanners.)
Attachment: pr91-36.pdf
__________________
Court
agents.
04-09-2007 04:46 AM
GC Marciano Here is the text of the above-attached document:

________________________________________
Before the
Federal Communications Commission,
Washington, DC 20554
(PR Docket 91-36)
Registered: Jul 2003 In the Matter of

Posts: 9967 Federal Preemption of State
and Local Laws Concerning Amateur
Operator Use of Transceivers
Capable of Reception Beyond
Amateur Service Frequency Allocations

MEMORANDUM OPINION AND ORDER
Adopted: August 20, 1993; | Released: September 3, 1993
By the Commission:
I. INTRODUCTION
▪ 1. On November 14, 1989, the American Radio Relay League,

Incorporated (ARRL), filed a Motion for a Declaratory Ruling
requesting that the Commission preempt certain state statutes
and local ordinances affecting transceivers used by Amateur
Radio Service Licensees. The laws referenced by the ARRL
prohibit the possession of such transceivers if they are capable
of the reception of communications on certain frequencies other
than amateur service frequencies. On March 15, 1990, we
released a public notice inviting comment on ARRL's request. In
addition, on February 28, 1991, we released a Notice of Inquiry
that solicited additional comment to assist us in making a
decision in this matter. This Memorandum Opinion and Order
grants the request to the extent indicated herein.
II. BACKGROUND
▪ 2. The ARRL motion discusses state statutes and local

ordinances commonly known as "scanner laws," the violation of
which may be a criminal misdemeanor with the possibility of
equipment confiscation. Specifically, ARRL notes that state
statutes in New Jersey and Kentucky (which have subsequently
been changed --see paragraph 3, infra) prohibit the possession
of a mobile short-wave radio capable of receiving frequencies
assigned by the Commission for, inter alia, police use. In
addition, ARRL states that local ordinances exist throughout the
United States that similarly prohibit the possession of such
mobile short-wave radios without a locally-issued permit.
Therefore, ARRL explains, scanner laws can, inter alia, render
amateur radio licensees traveling interstate by automobile
vulnerable to arrest and to the seizure of their radio equipment
by state or local police.
▪ 3. Since the ARRL motion was filed with the Commission,

New Jersey repealed its statute and substituted a new, narrowly
tailored scanner law that only applies in the criminal context. In
addition, Kentucky amended its statute by adding an exemption
applying to amateur radio licensees. As a result, there no longer
appears to be any state scanner law with a deleterious effect on
the legitimate operations of amateur radio service licensees.
Nonetheless, the preemption issue raised by the ARRL motion
remains timely because it appears that some local scanning
ordinances remain in effect without safeguards to protect the
legitimate use of such radios by our licensees.

III. MOTION, INQUIRY AND COMMENTS
A. The ARRL Motion.
▪ 4. ARRL makes two arguments in support of preemption.

First, it states that the receiver sections of the majority of
commercially available amateur station transceivers can be
tuned slightly past the edges of the amateur service bands to
facilitate adequate reception up to the end of the amateur
service bands. ARRL seeks a preemption ruling that would
permit amateur operators to install in vehicles transceivers that
are capable of this "incidental" reception. Although ARRL's
formal request is couched in terms of this first, technical point,
the request focuses almost entirely on a second, broader issue
of whether state and local authorities should be permitted, via
the scanner laws, to prohibit the capability of radio reception by
amateur operators on public safety and special emergency
frequencies that are well outside the amateur service bands.
▪ 5. Concerning the broader issue, ARRL argues that amateur

operators have special needs for broadscale "out-of-band"
reception, and that the marketplace has long recognized these
needs by offering accommodating transceivers. According to
ARRL, all commercially manufactured amateur service HF
transceivers and the majority of such VHF and UHF transceivers
have non-amateur service frequency reception capability well
beyond the "incidental" -- they can receive across a broad
spectrum of frequencies, including the police and other public
safety and special emergency frequencies here at issue. This
additional capability, argues ARRL, permits amateur operators
to participate in a variety of safety activities, some in
conjunction with the military or the National Weather Service.
In both cases, reception on non-amateur frequencies is
necessary. Such activities benefit the public, according to ARRL,
especially in times of emergency, and some require the mobile
use of the amateur stations. ARRL states that, in addition, the
vast majority of amateur operators take part in these mobile
activities, and that the widespread enforcement of scanner laws
would render illegal the possession of virtually all modern
amateur mobile equipment. ARRL states that, as a result of
scanner laws, "several dozen instances of radio seizure and
criminal arrest [have been] suffered by licensed amateurs."
B. The Inquiry and Comments.
▪ 6. The Commission's February 28, 1991 Inquiry solicited

additional information concerning the technical and financial
feasibility of modifying existing amateur service mobile
transceivers to render them incapable of receiving police or
other public safety channels. We also asked for information
concerning the current and future marketplace availability of
mobile equipment meeting the restrictions of the laws and
whether there is value in having an available pool of wide-band,

mobile amateur equipment in the United States to meet

emergency needs.
▪ 7. In response to the Inquiry, we received 115 comments

and reply comments, of which the great majority are from
individual amateurs who support the preemption. One
commenter, the Michigan Department of State Police, states
that although it cooperates with the amateur service during
emergencies, it is concerned about isolated incidents of
apparently unlawful actions taken by amateur licensees upon
receipt of public safety communications outside of the amateur
radio band. Therefore, it concludes that "there can be no
beneficial need for amateur radio equipment to tune in public
safety channels." Of the remaining comments received, only a
few address the technical and marketplace questions described
above. These comments are from individual amateur operators
who state that existing wide-band transceivers cannot be
modified to meet the restrictions of the scanner laws without
substantial expense and that this situation will continue as new
equipment becomes available. Despite our specific request in
the Inquiry that manufacturers comment on these technical and
financial questions, no manufacturer chose to respond on these
points. We also received a few comments describing the
prevalence of scanner laws nationwide. Finally, the National
Communications System (NCS), of the Department of Defense,
states in its comment that the federal government utilizes
amateur operators in a number of programs requiring mobile,
wide-band transceivers.
IV. DISCUSSION
▪ 8. There are three ways state and local laws may be

preempted. First, Congress may expressly preempt the state or
local law. Second, Congress may, through legislation, clearly
indicate its intent to occupy the field of regulation, leaving "no
room for the States to supplement." Last, and most important
for this discussion,
[e]ven where Congress has not completely

displaced state regulation in a specific area,
state law [may be] nullified to the extent that
it actually conflicts with federal law. Such a
conflict arises when "compliance with both
federal and state regulations is a physical
impossibility,"...or when state law "stands as
an obstacle to the accomplishment and execution
of the full purposes and objectives of Congress."
Furthermore, "[f]ederal regulations have no less preemptive

effect than federal statutes."
▪ 9. The amateur service is regulated extensively under Part 97

of the Commission's Rules, 47 C.F.R. Part 97. As we have stated

in the past:
[T]here is...a strong federal interest in

promoting amateur communications. Evidence of
this interest may be found in the comprehensive
set of rules that the Commission has adopted to
regulate the amateur service.
Those rules set forth procedures for the
licensing of stations and operators, frequency
allocations, technical standards which amateur
radio equipment must meet and operating
practices which amateur operators must follow.
We recognize the Amateur Radio Service as a
voluntary, noncommercial communication service,
particularly with respect to providing emergency
communications. Moreover, the Amateur Radio
Service provides a reservoir of trained
operators, technicians and electronic experts
who can be called on in times of national or
local emergencies. By its nature, the Amateur
Radio Service also provides the opportunity for
individual operators to further international
goodwill.
This federal interest in the amateur service is also reflected in

Section 97.1 of our rules, 47 C.F.R. § 97.1, which provides that
the amateur service exists to "continu[e] and exten[d]...the
amateur's proven ability to contribute to the advancement of
the radio art." This regulatory purpose is consistent with the
Communications Act requirement that "[i]t shall be the policy of
the United States to encourage the provision of new
technologies to the public."
▪ 10. The strong federal interest in the preservation and

advancement of the amateur service is also demonstrated by
Congress's recent recognition of the goals of the amateur
service in a "Sense of Congress" provision in which Congress
strongly encouraged and supported the amateur service.
Congress therein directed all Government agencies to take into
account the valuable contribution of amateurs when considering
actions affecting the amateur radio service. We believe that the
strong federal interest in supporting the emergency services
provided by amateurs cannot be fully accomplished unless
amateur operators are free to own and operate their stations to
the fullest extent permitted by their licenses and are not
unreasonably hampered in their ability to transport their radio
transmitting stations across state and local boundaries for
purposes of transmitting and receiving on authorized
frequencies. Indeed, as a result of advances in technology
making smaller, lighter weight radios commercially available,
the Commission has expressly amended its rules to facilitate
and encourage unrestricted mobile amateur operations. As we

noted in a recent rule making proceeding to modify the rules

governing the amateur radio service,
In the age of the microprocessor and the

integrated circuit [amateur] equipment is highly
portable. It is common for amateur operators to
carry hand-held transceivers capable of
accessing many local repeaters in urban areas
and also capable of reasonably good line-of-
sight communication. It appears that the concept
of fixed station operation no longer carries
with it the same connotation it did previously.
For this reason, we propose to delete current
rules that relate to station operation away from
the authorized fixed station location.
As a consequence of these changes, the rules now expressly

authorize amateur service operation "at points where the
amateur service is regulated by the FCC," that is, at fixed and
mobile locations throughout the United States. Furthermore, the
Commission's Rules do not in any way prohibit an amateur
service transceiver from having out-of-band reception capability.
▪ 11. Against this background, we conclude that certain state

and local laws, as described below, conflict with the
Commission's regulatory scheme designed to promote a strong
amateur radio service. Scanner laws that prohibit the use of
transceivers that transmit and receive amateur frequencies
because they also receive public safety, special emergency or
other radio service frequencies frustrate most legitimate
amateur service mobile operations through the threat of
penalties such as fines and the confiscation of equipment. As
noted by ARRL, virtually all modern amateur service equipment
in use today can receive transmissions on the public safety and
special emergency frequencies at issue, and the majority of
amateur stations are operated in a mobile fashion.
Consequently, the mobile operations of the vast majority of
amateurs are affected by such laws. In addition, the record
statements by amateurs that the costs would be substantial to
modify existing transceivers are unchallenged. The scanner
laws, then, essentially place the amateur operator in the
position of either foregoing mobile operations by simply
avoiding all use of the equipment in vehicles or other locations
specified in the laws, or risking fines, or equipment confiscation.
This very significant limitation on amateurs operating rights
runs counter to the express policies of both Congress and the
Commission to encourage and support amateur service
operations, including mobile operations, and impermissibly
encroaches on federal authority over amateur operators. It
conflicts directly with the federal interest in amateur operators
being able to transmit and receive on authorized amateur
service frequencies.

▪ 12. For these reasons, we find it necessary to preempt state

and local laws that effectively preclude the possession in
vehicles or elsewhere of amateur service transceivers by
amateur operators merely on the basis that the transceivers are
capable of reception on public safety, special emergency, or
other radio service frequencies, the reception of which is not
prohibited by federal law. We find that, under current conditions
and given the types of equipment available in the market today,
such laws prevent amateur operators from using their mobile
stations to the full extent permitted under the Commission's
Rules and thus are in clear conflict with federal objectives of
facilitating and promoting the Amateur Radio Service. We
recognize the state law enforcement interest present here, and
we do not suggest that state regulation in this area that
reasonably attempts to accommodate amateur communications
is preempted. This decision does not pertain to scanner laws
narrowly tailored to the use of such radios, for example, for
criminal ends such as to assist flight from law enforcement
personnel. We will not, however, suggest the precise language
that must be contained in state and local laws. We do find that
state and local laws must not restrict the possession of amateur
transceivers simply because they are capable of reception of
public safety, special emergency or other radio service
frequencies, the reception of which is not prohibited by federal
law, and that a state or local permit scheme will not save from
preemption an otherwise objectionable law. Finally, we note, as
stated by APCO in comments filed previously in this proceeding,
that any public safety agency that desires to protect the
confidentiality of its communications can do so through the use
of technology such as scrambling or encryption.
V. CONCLUSION
▪ 13. We hold that state and local laws that preclude the
possession in vehicles or elsewhere of amateur radio service
transceivers by amateur operators merely on the basis that the
transceivers are capable of the reception of public safety,
special emergency, or other radio service frequencies, the
reception of which is not prohibited by federal law, are
inconsistent with the federal objectives of facilitating and
promoting the amateur radio service and, more fundamentally,
with the federal interest in amateur operator's being able to
transmit and receive on authorized amateur service
frequencies. We therefore hold that such state and local laws
are preempted by federal law.
▪ 14. Accordingly, IT IS ORDERED that the request for a

declaratory ruling filed by the ARRL IS GRANTED to the extent
indicated herein and in all other respects IS DENIED.
FEDERAL COMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

William F. Caton
Acting Secretary
__________________
Court
agents.
04-09-2007 04:47 AM
GC Marciano If your state or local law prohibits the use of mobile scanners
Copwatcher Extraordinaire and the agency you wish to monitor uses the VHF, UHF or 800
MHz band, the workaround is fairly simple:
1) Study and get your Amateur Radio license. Study materials

can be found on the internet, and many books are in publication
- I recommend study materials by author Gordon West. Testing
facilities for your area along with the dates and times can
usually be found online also. Most Amateur radio clubs sponsor
testing dates in their local area several times per year. (The
Registered: Jul 2003 Technicial-class test consists of 35 multiple-choice questions
and is fairly simple to pass).
Posts: 9967
2) Once licensed, purchase a dual-band mobile or handheld
amateur tranceiver with out-of-band reception. Most units
manufactured have OOB reception, many dual band units
include 800 MHz reception also.
3) Print a copy of the above .pdf file containing the federal

exemption and carry it in your vehicle along with a copy of your
Amateur Radio license.
4) Listen to your local police agency's communications to your

hearts content.
Keep in mind that even with PR 91-36, the use of a mobile

scanner (receiver) may still be prohibited. PR 91-36 applies
only to out-of-band capable transceivers.

__________________
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agents.
04-09-2007 05:05 AM
GC Marciano See what you need to know to obtain a Technician Class FCC
Copwatcher Extraordinaire Amateur Radio license - Take a practice test here:
http://www.qrz.com/testing.html
Browse other study materials here:

https://secure.qrz.com/store/w5yi/index.html
Find a testing location near you:

http://www.dxzone.com/cgi-bin/dir/jump2.cgi?ID=28

Location: Chicago, Illinois __________________
Posts: 9967
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COPWATCH.com Forum - Scanner Laws by State:
COPWATCH.com Forum > SCANNER FREQUENCIES > Scanner Laws by State:
Author Thread
GC Marciano Below is a list of states that allow/prohibit the use of mobile

Copwatcher Extraordinaire police scanners.
NOTE: Mobile scanner use is allowed in all 50 states if the user

is a licenced Amateur Radio Operator. If you live in a state that
prohibits mobile scanner use and you want to use a mobile
scanner, a few weeks of studying and a test will earn you your
Amateur License. If you want more information on obtaining
Amateur licensing, contact me at a.shemonia@neonlaw.com.
Registered: Jul 2003 ** = Only with written permission from State Police.
Posts: 9967
Attachment: scanner.jpg
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agents.
01-19-2006 09:05 PM
GC Marciano I just received this email from urei@aol.com:

quote:
Hello. I live in New York State and I work for

the State Senate here. I'm writing to advise
you that scanner use in a car is NOT legal in
NY and the law here has NO PROVISION for
hams to do so. Please amend your column to
state this. I can provide the exact language
Location: Chicago, Illinois from the DMV publication if necessary.
Posts: 9967 Mike
Perhaps he is right, I don't know. The above posted information

was current as of its original publishing date.
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10-31-2006 02:23 AM
liberranter It appears as if the swine in New York and the sleazy, scumbag
Super Moderator politicians who enable/cover for them are especially anxious to
avoid being held accountable for their behavior.
__________________
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Grigg
10-31-2006 10:12 AM
GC Marciano See: http://www.copwatch.net/forums/show...&threadid=19468

__________________
Registered: Jul 2003 of fundamental right contemplated by our constitution." - Illinois Supreme
Location: Chicago, Illinois Court
Posts: 9967
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COPWATCH.com Forum - ponca city, oklahoma
COPWATCH.com Forum > SCANNER FREQUENCIES > ponca city, oklahoma
Author Thread
mona lissa ponca city, oklahoma

Junior Member
request for scanner frequencies for Ponca City, Ok. police and fire.
Registered: Aug 2009 thank you
Location: midwest
Posts: 1
08-30-2009 03:36 AM

GC Marciano Sorry about the delay... I just found this request.

Attachment: untitled.png
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COPWATCH.com Forum - Texas
COPWATCH.com Forum > SCANNER FREQUENCIES > Texas
Author Thread
GC Marciano Texas
Houston Police:
Attachment: houston.png
__________________

Location: Chicago, Illinois "The purpose and the principal effect of posting information about bad cops
Posts: 9967 on the Internet is to inform the public for its own safety, not to humiliate the
Court

agents.
04-09-2006 08:11 PM
ReidDO Do you have this information for Austin, Dallas, and Fort Worth
Junior Member (particularly the last one). Do I need an FCC license to operate one?
Registered: Jun 2008 Report this post to a moderator |

Location:
Posts: 9
06-28-2008 06:59 AM
GC Marciano You do not need a FCC license to operate a scanner, although

Copwatcher Extraordinaire many municipalities have their own laws restricting the use of
scanners. See the list of scanner laws by state here: http://
www.copwatch.net/forums/show...&threadid=13472
● Fort Worth TX frequencies
● Dallas TX frequencies

Location: Chicago, Illinois ● Austin TX frequencies
Posts: 9967
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COPWATCH.com Forum - Interesting things heard on a scanner...
COPWATCH.com Forum > SCANNER FREQUENCIES > Interesting things heard on a

scanner...
Author Thread
GC Marciano Interesting things heard on a scanner...

Here's a few that I can recall, feel free to post any humorous or
otherwise interesting things you've heard on a scanner.
Benton IL, (Franklin Co) early 2006:
Officer conducts traffic stop, runs 10-28 (license plate check).
Registered: Jul 2003 Dispatch returns 28 info as belonging to the town Mayor, Gary
Location: Chicago, Illinois Kraft.
Posts: 9967
Lieutenant tells the officer to terminate the traffic stop, then
scolds the officer for not running the 10-28 BEFORE initiating
the traffic stop.

-----------------------
Aurora, IL (Kane Co) 2004:
North Central Narcotics Task Force (NCNTF, 154.95) is

conducting surveillance on what they believe to be subjects
attempting to sell narcotics.
After nearly an hour of surveillance (that I listened to, it is

unknown how long the operation was underway), units are told
by Commander to cease surveillance as the "suspects" are in
fact Federal DEA agents involved in an undercover operation
and they had spotted the NCNTF surveillance units.
Makes me wonder why they didn't notify local LE of the

operation?
-----------------------
Dekalb County IL, 2004:
Off-duty Illinois State Trooper in personal vehicle is pulled over

by County unit on suspicion of DWI.
Trooper (suspect) keys on ISPERN (155.4750, a statewide

mutual aid frequency) from his personal vehicle and requests
any available State Units to back him up as he is being
harassed.
Deputy Sheriff arrives and tells responding ISP units to leave

the scene or face a charge of obstruction of justice.
Trooper fails field sobriety tests and is placed under arrest.
According to later media reports, trooper pleads to a lesser

charge of unlawful transportation of alcohol and receives 90
days court supervision.
-----------------------
Intoxicated female reports her six week old child has "wandered
off" and cannot be found.
Officers respond and find child sleeping naked in baby crib with
live pet rabbit and empty liquor container.
Intoxicated mother is arrested and charged with neglect,

referred to DCFS.
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05-09-2007 03:50 AM
liberranter Re: Interesting things heard on a scanner...

Super Moderator
quote:
Intoxicated female reports her six week old

child has "wandered off" and cannot be found.
Officers respond and find child sleeping naked

in baby crib with live pet rabbit and empty
Posts: 5865 liquor container.
Intoxicated mother is arrested and charged

with neglect, referred to DCFS.
It would have been icing on the cake to find out that the woman
was a cop or a cop's wife.
__________________
Thomas Jefferson

Grigg

05-09-2007 03:57 AM
Mack Sounds much more entertaining than TV.

Assistant Moderator
Those cops are unintentional comedians.
__________________
misconduct
generally."
Registered: Jul 2003 Valentine, [<LINK] 935 P.2d 1294 (writing in dissent). WA Supreme Court, 1997.
Location:
Posts: 5215

misconduct.
05-09-2007 04:54 AM
waterinthefuel Can it be things heard back when scanners picked up home phone
Junior Member freqs and home phones actually were able to be picked up?
Registered: Dec 2006 I heard some stuff from women talking about a baby that was
Location: deeply disturbing.
Posts: 15
05-07-2008 06:51 PM

GC Marciano Certainly. What did you hear?

Of course the conversation was heard back when cell/cordless
monitoring was legal...
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COPWATCH.com Forum - NJ Ham Operators win "Mobile in Motion" exemption:
COPWATCH.com Forum > SCANNER FREQUENCIES > NJ Ham Operators win "Mobile
in Motion" exemption:
Author Thread
GC Marciano NJ Ham Operators win "Mobile in Motion" exemption:

New Jersey Assembly Bill A 4146 and Senate Bill S 1099/2764

were introduced in the New Jersey legislature to restrict cell
phone use and text messaging while driving. The twin measures
were passed on June 21st and await the governor's signature.
As originally introduced, the bills would have prohibited the use

of any and all electronic communications devices for
talking, listening or text messaging while driving. This
could have meant that New Jersey ham operators would have
Posts: 9967 effectively been banned from operating while mobile in motion.
But that won't be the case. This is because the combined

measure as passed includes a sentence that makes Amateur
Radio the only service exempt from the all inclusive ban. That

hard fought for exemption reads -- and I quote: "For the

purposes of this section an 'electronic communication
device' shall not include an Amateur Radio".
Talk about getting a broadly worded exemption that covers

every aspect of Amateur Service communications. More
importantly, it means that use of an Amateur Radio while
driving will continue to be permitted in New Jersey. The
only caveat is that it is done safely and the ham operator is not
engaging in inattentive driving.
The new law goes into effect four months after the governor
signs it. From that point on, hams are advised to keep a copy of
the measure and their Amateur Radio license in your glove
compartment if you drive in the Garden State.
Read the law at the following New Jersey Legislature link: http://
www.njleg.state.nj.us/2006/B...500/1099_R2.HTM
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COPWATCH.com Forum - Hall County Radio System lauded by police, criticized by scanner enthusiasts
COPWATCH.com Forum > SCANNER FREQUENCIES > Hall County Radio System
lauded by police, criticized by scanner enthusiasts
Author Thread
GC Marciano Hall County Radio System lauded by police, criticized by scanner

Copwatcher Extraordinaire enthusiasts
Can You Hear Me Now? Officers laud new $16 million

radio system
By STEPHEN GURR
The Times
http://www.gainesvilletimes.com/new...ws/171020.shtml
Registered: Jul 2003 Sgt. Steve Mickels of the Hall County Sheriff's Office talks on a
Posts: 9967
portable radio using the county's new radio system. Authorities
have welcomed the switch to the $16 million system, which
they say will help them communicate more effectively.
In public safety, few tools are more important than the two-way

radio. "It's your lifeline," said Hall County Sheriff's Sgt. Steve
Mickels. "Everything depends on your ability to communicate.
From the time you get in your car to the time you're off duty,
it's on constantly. It's essentially the key to doing your job."
The recent debut of Hall County's new sales tax-funded $16

million radio system was heralded by law enforcement,
firefighters and medics as much-needed upgrade of technology
that was in some cases as much as 50 years old.
"This was something that's been needed for years," said

Gainesville Police Chief Frank Hooper, whose officers were
crowded onto one channel of an eight-channel VHF radio system.
The new 800 MHz digital trunked system supports 64 channels,

wipes out a myriad of "blackout" spots where coverage was hit-
or-miss in the county and provides reception so static-free that
it caught officers accustomed to deciphering muddled radio
traffic off-guard.
"People's voices sound different than before," said Mickels, a

shift supervisor. "Now you really have no static at all. The audio
quality is much like talking on a cell phone. That takes some
getting used to."
Hall County voters approved funding for the radio system in a

2004 sales tax referendum.
The $16 million went toward building or acquiring eight tower

sites throughout the county and purchasing some 1,100 radios
for county employees in all fields, from public safety to public
works.
The Motorola-brand radios range in price from $1,100 to $2,400

each.
Each radio has its own identifying imprint, allowing dispatchers

and other public safety workers to know immediately who is
talking when the microphone is activated, or "keyed," Mickels
said. That feature could prove useful in cases of an officer in
distress, he said.
"Before, we really wouldn't know who was asking for help,"

Mickels said. "All you got was 'help.' If an officer was in a
scuffle, you'd try to figure out who it was by voice."
Radio users can hit an orange emergency button to take priority

over the airwaves, sending out an immediate alert to 911
operators.
And officials hope to use the infrastructure now in place to one

day track the locations of units through Global Positioning
Systems.
The radio system is, in fact, much more than a means of voice

communication, 911 Director Marty Nix.
"It's basically one huge computer network" over the airwaves,

Nix said.
Digital data can be transmitted over the system, which will one
day allow officers to run car tag numbers and criminal histories
on in-car laptop computers, saving time asking dispatchers for
the information.
Gainesville Fire Chief Dick Taylor says he hopes to use the data
transmission component to give firefighters useful, on-the-go
information on hydrant locations, water systems and street
layouts.
"We keep looking toward what other miracles (the system) will
bring us," Taylor said, adding that all those options will take
additional funding.
The groundwork has been laid with the big-money items,

however, particularly the transmission and receiving sites.
Having six repeater towers eliminates frequent frustrations for

deputies who at times found themselves talking into a useless
piece of plastic and metal in some parts of the county, officials
say.
For Gainesville police and fire, the troublesome spot was

Thompson Bridge. For Hall County, it was the Braselton area,
and even inside their own South Hall precinct.
To make matters worse, radio traffic from Barrow County and

elsewhere would sometimes "bleed through" into Hall County
communications, Mickels said.
"We don't have to listen to that cross-traffic anymore," Mickels

said.
The increase in bandwidth and channels allow different agencies

to communicate together, whereas fire and sheriffs personnel
and police often could not talk on the same frequencies.
"From that standpoint, it will make it far easier to communicate

between the agencies," Taylor said.
The concept of multiagency communications, known as

"interoperability," took on added emphasis after officials
examined the emergency response to the terrorist attacks of
9/11, Hooper said.
"One of the biggest problems they had was not being able to
talk to each other," Hooper said.
Special "talk groups" for major incidents free up space on the

regular channels for routine radio traffic.

That option got its first test earlier this month when high winds
damaged dozens of homes in South Hall and emergency
responders switched over to a designated tactical channel to
talk.
The system also will enable Hall County officials to communicate

with their counterparts in Gwinnett and Forsyth counties in
cases where jurisdictions may overlap.
"That's more or less what it's all about," Mickels said. "It's being
able to cross those barriers of interoperability and talk to
multiple jurisdictions."
While public safety officials are generally pleased so far with the
new system, there is one group who is not, Hooper said.
Police scanner enthusiasts who like to monitor radio traffic at

home have effectively been blocked out of the new system
through digital encryption that turns voices into electronic noise.
While Hooper understands the frustrations of scanner buffs, he

gives a practical reason for encrypting his department's radio
traffic. "Criminals can monitor traffic, too," he said.
Mickels said deputies responding to burglary calls have keyed

up their radio mics only to hear their voices repeated back to
them over police scanners.
"They were listening to basically everything we were doing," he

said. "It helps when the bad guys aren't able to monitor us."
Nix worked with the agencies for more than three years in
planning and developing the system and says he's happy with
the results.
"I think it has increased the efficiency of county and city

government and public safety 100-fold," Nix said. "In the long
run it's going to be a great benefit to the community."
Said Mickels, "It's obviously been a needed thing, to get up to

standard."
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agents.
05-01-2007 07:48 PM
liberranter Re: Hall County Radio System lauded by police, criticized by scanner
Super Moderator enthusiasts
Police scanner enthusiasts who like to monitor radio

traffic at home have effectively been blocked out of the
new system through digital encryption that turns voices
into electronic noise.
Depending on the type/brand of radio they're talking about, the

encryption algorithm being used may quite weak. In fact, if
Location: Tucson, AZ these are multichannel systems, they may not be using
Posts: 5865 "encryption" per se at all; the individual channels are just
broadcast on frequency bands so narrow that the signals cannot
be processed intelligibly by wide-band receivers. It's more of an
issue of having a good demultiplexer than being able to
decipher encrypted speech.
While Hooper understands the frustrations of scanner

buffs, he gives a practical reason for encrypting his
department's radio traffic. "Criminals can monitor traffic,
too," he said.
What he and his porky pals are much more afraid of, however,
are law-abiding citizens monitoring their communications and
discovering how much illegal activity they're getting away with.
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05-01-2007 09:01 PM

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COPWATCH.com Forum - RadioReference Frequency Database:
COPWATCH.com Forum > SCANNER FREQUENCIES > RadioReference Frequency

Database:
Author Thread
GC Marciano RadioReference Frequency Database:

RadioReference.com is the world's largest radio communications

reference website, with complete conventional frequency
assignments, trunked radio system information, frequencies,
and talkgroups, FCC License assignments and maps, 10-Code
Lists, agency maps, files, downloads, links, and detailed agency
information for most public safety, military, and local
government activities.
The RadioReference database has become the richest source of
Posts: 9967 public safety frequency information in the United States, and
frequency information from abroad is being added almost daily.
I have spent literally hundreds of hours uploading my personal

frequency databases to the RadioReference database, and the

website now has over 80,000 thousand members who regularly

contribute their new frequency information.
The database is updated on a daily basis, making it the most up-

to-date resource available.
Because the RR Database is so extensive and complete, I have

resorted to simply posting links to the appropriate RR page in
response to frequency requests here on this forum.
RadioReference.com Frequency Database

http://radioreference.com/modules.php?name=RR
Attachment: banner.gif
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COPWATCH.com Forum - Police can't be scanned in Oz.....
COPWATCH.com Forum > SCANNER FREQUENCIES > Police can't be scanned in Oz.....
Author Thread
Slattery Police can't be scanned in Oz.....

Junior Member
Are most police forces in the USA easily picked up via a scanner?
Registered: Jan 2007
Location: Australia Here in Australia, many of the major cities have moved to digital
Posts: 14
encryption with motorola, meaning no one can pick up the
frequency on a scanner.
01-14-2007 08:27 PM

liberranter I have no doubt that many PDs are already moving in that
Super Moderator direction and that those who haven't have not done so mainly
for budgetary reasons (inability to fund the purchase of such
comms equipment).
Of course some of these scanners use relatively weak

encryption algorithms and probably don't involve the frequent
replacement of encryption keys, meaning that a determined
"sniffer" with the right equipment and enough time on their
hands could break the encrypted signals.
Registered: Jun 2005 __________________

Thomas Jefferson

Grigg
01-15-2007 01:18 PM
GC Marciano Re: Police can't be scanned in Oz.....

quote:
Originally posted by Slattery

Are most police forces in the USA easily picked
up via a scanner?
Registered: Jul 2003 Many US agencies are migrating to digital trunking systems
Location: Chicago, Illinois such as Illinois new statewide Starcom 21 system (APCO P-25),
Posts: 9967 primarily in large metropolitan areas. However, most US
agencies still use the standard VHF/UHF frequencies or analog
800 MHz conventional or trunking systems.
New scanner technology is always being released that can

monitor the digital signals (Radio Shack PRO-96/2096, Uniden
BCD996T, BCD396T, etc). I have not yet encountered a police
agency that I was not able to effectively monitor.

Digital encryption is not widely used, but some agencies have

the option to switch to an encrypted signal when relaying
sensitive radio communications. Digitally encrypted signals
require the use of high-end computer software, equipment and
an enormous amount of patience to "crack". NOTE: FCC law
prohibits the intentional interception of encrypted radio
communications.
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COPWATCH.com Forum - DEA Frequencies
COPWATCH.com Forum > SCANNER FREQUENCIES > DEA Frequencies
Author Thread
GC Marciano DEA Frequencies

......................................................
The DEA sharea concurrent jurisdiction with FBI over
drug offenses. The Administrator, DEA, reports to the
Attorney General through the Director, Federal Bureau
of Investigation (FBI).
.....................................................
Registered: Jul 2003 120.3750 DEA AIRCRAFT

Posts: 9967
120.7750 DEA AIRCRAFT
156.7000 DEA NATIONWIDE CTCSS
163.1850 DEA
163.5350 DEA
164.8250 DEA
165.2350 DEA

165.2600 DEA
165.2850 DEA
170.9000 DEA ACADEMY, VA
171.4500 DEA ACADEMY, VA
171.4500 DEA AIR SURVEILLANCE CHOPPER IN/AROUND
ATLANTA, GA
171.4500 DEA NATIONAL ASSINGMENTS (VARIOUS USES)
172.0500 DEA
173.0000 DEA TO FBI (?)
281.4000 DEA AIRCRAFT
411.1250 DEA LOCAL SYSTEMS INPUT TO 419.2500
414.1250 DEA JOINT TASK FORCE (JTF)
414.5250 DEA CHANNEL 11 STRIKE FORCE - TACTICAL
414.6000 DEA LOCAL SYSTEMS INPUT TO REPEATER 419.2000
415.6000 DEA CHANNEL 03 STRIKE FORCE INPUT TO
REPEATER 418.8250
REPEATER 418.6250
REPEATER 418.9500
REPEATER 418.9000
416.3750 DEA LOCAL SYSTEMS REPEATER TO 418.7750
416.6000 DEA
417.0250 DEA CHANNEL F-7 OPERATIONS INPUT TO 418.9750
417.0400 DEA
417.1750 DEA JOINT TASK FORCE
417.4500 DEA
417.5000 DEA
417.5500 DEA
417.7500 DEA CHANNEL 09 REPEATER FOR 413.9750
417.7500 DEA CAR-TO-CAR
418.0500 DEA CHANNEL 10
418.0750 DEA CHANNEL 11 INTERAGENCY COMMON
418.1750 DEA CAR-TO-CAR SURVEILLANCE FREQS SHARED
WITH I.R.S.
WITH I.R.S.
WITH I.R.S.

418.5000 DEA AIR/GROUND

418.5500 DEA
418.5750 DEA TO US COAST GUARD
418.6250 DEA CHANNEL 01 STRIKE FORCE REPEATER FOR
416.0500
WITH I.R.S.
418.7000 DEA
418.7250 DEA
418.7500 DEA CHANNEL 03 STRIKE FORCE - TACTICAL (INPUT
TO 415.6000)
418.7750 DEA LOCAL SYSTEMS REPEATER FOR 416.3750
418.8000 DEA CHANNEL 01 CAR TO CAR
415.6000)
418.8750 DEA
418.9000 DEA CHANNEL 02 SURVIELANCE REPEATER FOR
416.3250
418.9250 DEA
416.2000
417.0250
419.9500 DEA
816.8125 DEA FLORIDA-MOBILE
861.8125 DEA FLORIDA-BASE
High Intensity Drug Trafficking Area (HIDTA)

.....................................................
This is a multi-agency task force which targets highly
sophisticated drug traffickers and money launderers.

Principal areas of operation include New York, Miami,

Los Angeles, Houston, and the Southwest border areas.
(Recently this may also include Atlanta)
.....................................................
412.0000 DEA HIDTA REPEATER FOR 417.1250

412.5250 DEA HIDTA INPUT TO 414.5500 (CHANNEL 1)
414.0250 CAR-TO-CAR (CHANNEL 3)
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COPWATCH.com Forum - Illinois
COPWATCH.com Forum > SCANNER FREQUENCIES > Illinois
Author Thread
GC Marciano Chicago DEA

These frequencies are commonly used by the DEA in and
around the Chicago area for surveillance and other tactical
operations:
F1- 418.625
F2- 418.900
F3- 418.750
F4- 418.675
Registered: Jul 2003 F5- 418.825
Location: Chicago, Illinois F6- 418.950
Posts: 9967
F7- 418.975
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GC Marciano Chicago Police:

Attachment: chicago.png
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GC Marciano Other Chicago frequencies:

• Fire Departments
153.7700 Chicago Fire Dept, Englewood (South)
154.1300 Chicago Fire Dept, Main (North)
154.1600 Evanston Fire Dept
154.3400 Lincolnwood Fire Dept
154.3400 Skokie Fire Dept
460.6000 Chicago Fire Dept, Ambulance (North)
460.6250 Chicago Fire Dept, Ambulance (South)
Location: Chicago, Illinois • Other City Services
Posts: 9967
453.5000 Chicago Dept of Streets & Sanitation
453.5500 Chicago Dept of Streets & Sanitation
453.6250 Chicago Dept of Streets & Sanitation (Snow Plows)
453.6500 Chicago Dept of Streets & Sanitation (Snow Plows)
453.6750 Chicago Traffic Signal Repair (?)
453.7250 Chicago Dept of Animal Control
453.8250 Chicago Dept of Human Services
453.8750 Chicago Metropolitan Sanitary District (?)
453.9250 Chicago Metropolitan Sanitary District
453.9750 Chicago Fire Alarm Repair (?)
• Utilities
153.4700 Commonwealth Edison
• Transportation
118.1000 O'Hare Tower
118.4000 O'Hare
118.7000 Midway Tower
119.0000 O'Hare
119.9000 Palwaukee Tower
120.7500 O'Hare
121.3000 Meigs Tower
121.9000 O'Hare
125.0000 O'Hare
125.2000 O'Hare
125.4000 O'Hare
125.7000 O'Hare
127.4000 O'Hare
127.6000 O'Hare
152.3000 American United Cab
152.3150 American Taxi
470.9875 Chicago Transit Authority Rail
857.8125 Northwest Cab
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04-09-2006 05:56 PM
GC Marciano ITTF (Illinois Terrorism Task Force)

The following frequencies are for the "Illinois Terrorism Task

Force" (ITTF).
Recently there has been an increase of radio traffic on these

frquencies, however it seems most of it is Illinois State Police
units coordinating "speed traps" on major IL highways: A unit
sits atop a bridge with a radar gun clocking travellers below. He
then radios the vehicle description to a group of officers sitting
about a mile up the road (usually over a hill or just around a
Posts: 9967 bend) who then stop or as they say "take down" the speeder.
Why they conduct these speed traps using the ITTF frequencies
I will never know, I guess speeders now fall under the category
of "terrorists".
Frequencies:
Channel 01 - 155.05500 (IREACH)

Channel 02 - 155.72500
Channel 03 - 151.13750
Channel 04 - 154.45250
Channel 05 - 158.73750
Channel 06 - 159.47250
Channel 07 - 155.47500 (ISPERN)
__________________


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agents.
07-29-2006 10:15 PM
hs300802 are these channels trunked, because sometimes i cant get my

Junior Member scanner to work. Or maybe i just dont know what i'm doing.
Registered: Dec 2006 Report this post to a moderator |

Location:
Posts: 4
12-31-2006 03:37 PM
liberranter Re: ITTF (Illinois Terrorism Task Force)

Super Moderator
quote:
Why they conduct these speed traps using the

ITTF frequencies I will never know, I guess
speeders now fall under the category of
"terrorists".

Posts: 5865
They're probably expecting that one of these days they'll pull
somebody over who has a load of semtex in his trunk that he'll
detonate while the cop has him pulled over on the side of the
road.
(BTW, on this note, let me offer this tidbit of advice to our cop
friends of all flavors, everywhere: Since I'm sure that exactly
such a scenario as I described above is being postulated
somewhere in the DHS's "anti-terrorism training" [smirk], think
about this: If such a tactic were a serious terrorist "threat", it
would already have been pulled off by now, given the fact
that we've pissed enough of the Muslim world off and to such an
egregious degree that they would have wreaked havoc on our
suburbs or key pieces of our critical infrastructure (chosen at
random) across the nation if they had the capability to do so.
But since it hasn't happened, it obviously is beyond either the
logistical or technological abilities of any of our "terrorist"
adversaries, which, as heavily and ubiquitously funded and

supplied as they are by the likes of such ueber-wealthy and well-

connected individuals as OBL, means that it simply isn't possible
to pull off. Ergo, you need to quit taking yourselves so
seriously. No one takes you seriously, that's for sure).
__________________
Thomas Jefferson

Grigg
12-31-2006 08:29 PM
GC Marciano The above ITTF frequencies are not trunked, they are standard
Copwatcher Extraordinaire VHF conventional.
__________________
Posts: 9967 Court
agents.
01-01-2007 02:49 AM

Bling Can you find any frequencies for Tazewell/Peoria/Woodford

Junior Member Counties in central Illinios please?
Registered: Jan 2007 Report this post to a moderator |

Location: Illinios
Posts: 7
01-14-2007 02:31 PM
sassy500 Illinois State Police Freq.

Junior Member 42.600
42.680
Location: Report this post to a moderator |
Posts: 27
01-14-2007 03:09 PM
Bling Would i have to put zero's in front of that since they have three
Junior Member spaces before my decimal?
Registered: Jan 2007 And GC could you find any if possible please?
Location: Illinios
Posts: 7 Last edited by Bling on 01-15-2007 at 02:11 PM
01-15-2007 01:40 PM
sassy500 No just enter

Junior Member 42.600 and 42.680
Registered: Dec 2006 Report this post to a moderator |

Location:
Posts: 27
01-15-2007 02:02 PM
sassy500 What do you mean by CG - Coast Guard?

Junior Member
Location:
Posts: 27
01-15-2007 02:05 PM

Bling Lol sorry i meant to say GC....

Junior Member
Would it be possible to find frequencies for Storm Spotting
Registered: Jan 2007 networks in Peoria/Woodford/Tazewell counties.
Location: Illinios
Posts: 7 Also if i gave a few community names would it be easier?
01-15-2007 02:14 PM
sassy500 I would buy a police call book - I no longer have mine. THat book
Junior Member will give you almost all of the frequencies you need. You can buy
the book at Radio Shack
Posts: 27
01-15-2007 02:20 PM
GC Marciano quote:
Originally posted by sassy500
I would buy a police call book - I no longer
have mine. THat book will give you almost all
of the frequencies you need. You can buy the
book at Radio Shack
Sassy: By "GC" I think he was referring to my username,

GC505. Also, Police Call is no longer published. The book went
Posts: 9967 out of production after the 2005 edition. The outdated 2005
edition is still available at many Radio Shack stores.
__________________
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agents.

01-15-2007 02:48 PM
GC Marciano TAZEWELL COUNTY

Tazewell County uses a 800 MHZ trunked system, so a trunking-

capable scanner is needed to monitor their communications.
More information about their system (frequencies, etc) can be

found at: http://radioreference.com/modules.php?
name=RR&sid=2261
Other Tazewell County frequencies (convention, non-trunked)

Location: Chicago, Illinois are listed here: http://radioreference.com/modules.p...
Posts: 9967 id=680#cid-6638
__________________
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agents.
01-15-2007 03:00 PM
GC Marciano WOODFORD COUNTY

Check out the Radio Reference Database for Woodford County.

It lists everything you could want to know about the area.
http://radioreference.com/modules.php?name=RR&ctid=692
__________________

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agents.
01-15-2007 03:00 PM
GC Marciano PEORIA COUNTY

Peoria County is in the process of building a digital trunking

system, but it is not in use yet.
Their frequency information can be found here: http://

radioreference.com/modules.php?name=RR&ctid=662
__________________
Posts: 9967 "The purpose and the principal effect of posting information about bad cops
Court
agents.
01-15-2007 03:05 PM

GC Marciano ISP DISTRICT 8

Illinois State Police frequencies for Tazewell/Woodford/Peoria

Counties (District 8) are as follows:
155.52000 - District 8 High BandDispatch

42.36000 - District 8 Low Band Dispatch
154.92000 - Narcotics/Multi-County Enforcement Group
155.44500 - Narcotics/Multi-County Enforcement Group
154.69500 - District 8 (Various Use)
154.90500 - District 8 (Various Use)
Posts: 9967 155.46000 - District 8 (Various Use)
Attachment: d08map.png
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agents.
01-15-2007 03:16 PM
Bling Thanks GC.

Junior Member
New question....How do i find out if my scanner is trunked system
Registered: Jan 2007 capable, i dont have the box or book anymore...
Location: Illinios
Posts: 7 Or...
Could you tell me if a BearCat BC244clt is trunking capable?
I've had this thing forever...but used to not really use it much...now
its always on if i'm around.

01-16-2007 12:42 AM

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COPWATCH.com Forum - County Frequencies
COPWATCH.com Forum > SCANNER FREQUENCIES > County Frequencies
Author Thread
fluffycrane County Frequencies

Junior Member
I am looking for police/ems frequencies for Harnett and Johnson

Registered: Nov 2006 counties. Any help would be great.
Location:
Posts: 2
11-10-2006 06:12 PM

mr.b GO TO THE FREQUENCY THREAD ON HOME PAGE

Senior Member
__________________
copchaser
proverbs, 21, 21

Location: CALIFORNIA
Posts: 1072
11-10-2006 06:19 PM
GC Marciano If you tell me the state that Harnett and Johnson counties are
Copwatcher Extraordinaire in, I'll tell you their frequencies.
__________________
Posts: 9967 Court
agents.
11-11-2006 12:05 AM
fluffycrane Harnett and Johnson counties are in North Carolina. If you have
Junior Member anything in Sampson County that would be great too! Thanks for
the help.
Posts: 2
11-14-2006 07:57 PM

GC Marciano HARNETT COUNTY:

Copwatcher Extraordinaire Harnett County Sheriff uses an 800 MHz EDACS trunking
system that requires a trunking-capable scanner
(Trunktracker®) to effectively monitor.
Their trunking frequencies are as follows:
856.93750
857.93750
858.93750
Registered: Jul 2003 859.93750
Location: Chicago, Illinois 860.93750
Posts: 9967
Other Harnett County frequenies:
Angier Police - 460.0750/465.0750 - 192.8 PL

Fire/EMS/Rescue Dispatch - 155.7600
Fireground - 154.2050
State Rescue - 155.2800
Betsy Johnson Hospital - 155.3400
Good Hope Hospital - 155.3400
Anderson Creek Fire - 154.2500
Spout Springs Fire - 154.3700
Dunn, Erwin Fire: - 154.4150
JOHNSON COUNTY:
Johnson County also uses the above-described EDACS Trunking
system on the following frequencies:
- Primary - East Tower (Smithfield)

866.22500
866.72500
867.20000
867.70000
868.22500
855.71250
- West Tower
856.71250
857.71250
858.71250
859.71250
860.71250
868.98750
- South Tower
866.30000
867.30000
867.80000
868.55000
868.95000
- North Tower
866.43750
867.32500

867.93750
868.72500
868.98750
Other Johnson Co. Frequencies:
Fire Dispatch - 154.3400 / 153.9050 110.9 PL

Sheriff - 460.0500 / 465.0500 110.9 PL
Sheriff - 460.2750 / 465.2750 110.9 PL
Sheriff Detectives - 855.71250 / 810.7125
State Fire - 154.2800 110.9 PL
EMS "Rescue Tac" - 155.2350 110.9 PL
State Rescue - 155.2800 110.9 PL
SAMPSON COUNTY:
Finally... A trunking-free county that is easy to monitor.
Sheriff (and Small Town Police Dispatch) - 460.20000 /

465.20000 146.2 PL
Clinton Police - 460.1000 / 465.1000 146.2 PL
Clinton PD Tactical - 460.3750 / 465.37500 146.2 PL
City and County Fire - 154.22000 114.8 PL
Rescue/EMS Dispatch - 461.00000 / 466.00000 146.2 PL
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agents.
11-14-2006 11:21 PM

GARY951 THEIR SYSTEM HAS MANY PROBLEMS AND IS HARD TO HEAR,I

Junior Member LIVE JUST ACROSS THE COUNTY LINE AND CANT HEAR THEM
MOST OF THE TIME WITH A 30FT HIGH ANTENNA.
Location: FAYETTEVILLE,NC Report this post to a moderator |
Posts: 1
12-27-2006 09:08 PM
GC Marciano What band is the antenna tuned for? If you do not have an
Copwatcher Extraordinaire antenna tuned for the 800 MHz band, reception will be very
poor.
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COPWATCH.com Forum - Florida
COPWATCH.com Forum > SCANNER FREQUENCIES > Florida
Author Thread
GC Marciano Florida
Orlando
Listen to the Orlando Florida police and fire live at:

http://heliosj.iddings.us:8000/seminolescanner.m3u
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COPWATCH.com Forum - Arizona
COPWATCH.com Forum > SCANNER FREQUENCIES > Arizona
Author Thread
LEAP_Speaker (old Arizona

account)
Junior Member
Mohave County AZ With Input & Tones
Registered: Aug 2006 Mohave Co Sheriff
Location: Mohave Valley, AZ
Posts: 27
156.150/155.535 MCSQ D-1 Kingman PL-173.8

155.640/154.815 MCSO D-2 BHC-MV PL-173.8
155.685/154.830 MCSO D-3 Lake Havasu PL-173.8
154.355/153.890 PL-100.0 (BHC) Mohave County mutual aid
155.880/154.995 MCSO Tac-1 Split -.885 D-1 PL 110.9
155.580/154.845 MCSO Tac2
154.025 MCSO Car to Car
155.475 National L.E.R.N.
158.760 MCSO Bill

154.845/155.580 M/R out Mohave County Sheriff

BHC POLICE
154.725/155.715 Bullhead Police CH-1

155.070/159.015 Bullhead police CH-2 T.A.C.
155.010/156.775 Bullhead police CH-3
154.475/ Simplex Bullhead police
154.355/153.890 PL-100.0 (MOOMIA) Bullhead police
BHC Fire
154.415/154.010 Bullhead fire CH-1 PL-173 8

154.415 Simplex Bullhead fire CH-2
154.220 Simplex Bullhead fire CH3
154.355 Simplex Bullhead fire CH4
154.310/155.760 PL-173 8 Ft Mohave Fire Repeater
154.325/155.955 BHC-FireCH6 PL-173.8 MV Fire
154.430/ 153.770 BHC-Fire CH-7 PL-173.8 Cta
154725/155.715 BHC-Fire CH-8 PL-173.8 BHC-PD
154.310 Simplex Bullhead fire CH-9 Ft Mohave Fire
154.355/153.890 PL-100.0 BHC-Fire CH-10 (McoM/A)
154.325 Simplex BHC-Fire CH-12 PL-173.8 MV Fire
154.430 Simplex BHC-Fire CH-11 PL-173.8 Clark Co Fire
155.055/153.920 BHC-Fire CH-13 PL-173.8 Kingman Fire Rpt
154.190 Simplex BHC-Fire CH-13 PL-173.8 Golden Valley Fire
154.355/153.890 PL-100.0 (McoM/A) Bullhead fire Mutual Aid
153.890 Bullhead fire?
154.190/154.430 100.0 Golden Shores Fire
Mohave Valley Fire
154.325/153.950 Mohave Valley fire PL-173.8

OR
154.325/155.955 Mohave Valley fire PL-173.8
Oatman Fire 154.220 Oatman fire Ma in
154.430 Oatman Fire
San Bernardino County Fire
BLM LE/Fire 166.375

National Park Service Lake Mohave
166.300/166.900 114.8 Park Net
172.600 NPS-LE X-mass Tree Pass

Arizona State
160.475+ D. P.S. Kingrnan district IPL-100.0

460.225+ D. P.S. Statewide
453.050+ D.P.S. Communication Servtoe
155.475 Arizona D.P.S. VHF
154.935 Arizona drug task force
Misc
154.115 BHC Local Government

155.850 Fort Mohave tribal police
159.210 Fort Mohave tribal Rangers FIRE
08-12-2006 01:31 PM
GC Marciano Thanks for the complete list!

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COPWATCH.com Forum - Pro 95
COPWATCH.com Forum > SCANNER FREQUENCIES > Pro 95
Author Thread
mr.b Pro 95
Senior Member
I got this PRO 95 scanner and all the channels are locked any help
on how to unlock and program. I am also having problems picking
up Sanger PD California on a PRO 94, I have them programmed
858.7125 and trunking but can not hear them.
__________________
Registered: Oct 2005 copchaser
Posts: 1072 proverbs, 21, 21
07-11-2006 06:34 PM

GC Marciano If all the channels are locked out, they can be easily unlocked
Copwatcher Extraordinaire by pushing the L/O button on the keypad.
The Pro-95 can be a pain to program, especially if you plan on

coming even close to filling it's 1000 memory capability. The
alpha tagging is also difficult to program using the keypad. The
users manual is not much help...
I strongly recommend using Don Starr's (Starrsoft) free

Win95 programming software to program the unit as it makes
Registered: Jul 2003 programming a breeze. The software is free and available for
Location: Chicago, Illinois download HERE.
Posts: 9967
All that is required is the widely-available programming cable,
available at Radio Shack ($19.99) or on Ebay ($10-$15).
Also see: http://starrsoft.com/freeware/win95/default.asp
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COPWATCH.com Forum - US Secret Service Frequencies and usage:
COPWATCH.com Forum > SCANNER FREQUENCIES > US Secret Service Frequencies

and usage:
Author Thread
GC Marciano US Secret Service Frequencies and usage:

A list of Secret Service frequencies and their designations.

Listen to these when the President, Vice President or other
political dignitary visits your area:
32.2300 - Able White House Communications Agency (WHCA)

32.3200 - Able
34.3500 - Nighthawk Aircraft Fleet (HMX) - VIP Transport Net
Registered: Jul 2003 46.7000 - Nighthawk Aircraft Fleet (HMX) - Helicopter OPS -
Posts: 9967
Secondary
46.7500 - Nighthawk Aircraft Fleet (HMX) - Helicopter OPS /
Transport -Primary
46.8000 - Nighthawk Aircraft Fleet (HMX) - Helicopter OPS - AUX
142.7500 - Nighthawk Aircraft Fleet (HMX) - Command Post

162.6875 - Presidential Motorcade Security

162.6875 - Yankee AF1 / AF2 Phone Patch - Uplink
163.7375 - Unknown
164.1000 - VIP Protection
164.1000 - Victor WHCA President / VP Security
164.4000 - Papa Field Office / White House Perimeter Patrols
164.6500 - Tango President / VP Security
164.8875 - Oscar Presidential Motorcade & Executive Family
164.8875 - Oscar Presidential Protection - Primary
165.0875 - Air Force One Uniform Communications
165.2125 - Mike Former President / VP Security
165.2250 - Unknown
165.3750 - Primary Nationwide Repeater
165.5125 - Sierra WHCA - White House Staff / Pagers
165.6875 - Hotel WHCA VP Staff / White House Garage
165.7875 - Baker President / VP / VIP Escorts (National)
166.2000 - India HQ / Presidential Protection
166.2125 - Hotel President / VP Security
166.2125 - Hotel Presidential Protection
166.3750 - Charlie Nationwide Primary Command Post
166.4000 - Golf Charlie Repeater - Input
166.4000 - Romeo X-Ray Repeater - Input
166.4625 - X-Ray Treasury Common
166.5125 - Alpha Escort / Security
166.5125 - Sierra President / VP Security
166.7000 - Quebec White House Staff
166.7000 - November WHCA - White House Staff
167.0250 - November White House Staff
167.0250 - Whiskey Paging
167.8250 - Kilo Presidents RES (LBJ) Phone - Duplex
167.9000 - Hotel WHCA VP Staff / White House Garage
168.7875 - Lima White House Staff - Voice Scramblers
168.7875 - Lima Presidents RES (LBJ) Phone - Duplex
168.8250 - Jilo White House Staff
169.9250 - Delta WHCA Vans
170.0000 - Juliet Camp David Pagers
171.2875 - Zulu AF1 / AF2 Phone Patch - Downlink
265.8000 - Nighthawk Aircraft Fleet (HMX) - Squadron Common
305.5500 - 246.9500 Phone Patch
322.7500 - 366.0000 Phone Patch
336.8000 - 344.0000 Phone Patch
361.6000 - AF1 Uniform Communications
375.0000 - Nighthawk Aircraft Fleet (HMX) - Transport

382.3500 - 326.0000 Phone Patch - F1

397.0500 - 390.0000 Phone Patch
406.2625 - Special Usage (Technical Security) Division -
Wireless Body Mic
407.4750 - 415.8000 Phone Patch - NATL II
407.8000 - Unknown
Wireless Body Mic
407.8500 - Echo AF1 / AF2 Phone Patch Uplink
Wireless Body Mic
407.9250 - India HQ / Presidential Protection / Treasury
Wireless Body Mic
408.0000 - Special Usage (Technical Security) Division - F1 RF
Alarm
408.4500 - 408.4500 AF1 / AF2 Orderwise UHF (WFM)
408.5000 - Special Usage (Technical Security) Division - F3
Tracker - F1
408.9750 - Special Usage (Technical Security) Division - F4
Tracker - F2
411.0000 - Special Usage (Technical Security) Division - F2 RF
Alarm
414.6750 - Yellow WHCA
414.6750 - 418.1500 Yellow Uniformed / Tech Security Divisions
414.8000 - Blue Training / Protective Support Divisions
414.8500 - Tan Foreign Mission Divisions
414.8500 - 418.8000 Brown Uniformed Division
414.9500 - Orange White House Uniformed Division
414.9500 - Orange Executive Protection Division
415.1000 - 418.3250 Black Training Division
415.6500 - 419.1000 Silver Foreign Mission / Uniformed
Divisions
415.6750 - Black Uniformed Division
415.6750 - 419.0750 Gold Communications Division
415.6750 - Black Executive Protection Division
415.7000 - Foxtrot AF1 / AF2 Phone Patch Downlink
415.7500 - 407.8750 Green Training Division
415.8000 - Gray Proctective Support Divisions
415.8750 - Violet Training Division
415.8750 - Violet Training Division
415.9750 - 419.7250 Red Foreign Mission / Uniformed Divisions
418.1250 - Lavender WHCA Transportation
418.3500 - 407.7500 Gray Uniformed Division
418.7750 - 414.9500 Orange Uniformed Division
419.7250 - Green Technical Security Division
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COPWATCH.com Forum - FBI Frequencies
COPWATCH.com Forum > SCANNER FREQUENCIES > FBI Frequencies
Author Thread
GC Marciano Nationwide FBI Frequencies:

The FBI utilizes many frequencies, many of which are digitally
encrypted and need special hardware and software to decode.
The following are nationwide unencrypted frequencies that I

have heard FBI activity on. Keep in mind that unless you live
near a major metropolitan area, you will probably not hear
much activity.
Registered: Jul 2003 01) 162.6375

Location: Chicago, Illinois 02) 162.7625
Posts: 9967 03) 162.9500
04) 162.9750
05) 163.0500
06) 163.7250
07) 163.7500
08) 163.8625

09) 163.8875
10) 163.9125
11) 163.9375
12) 163.9750
13) 164.1250
14) 164.1500
15) 167.3375
16) 167.3750
17) 167.5375
18) 167.4250
19) 167.1500
20) 167.5250
21) 167.2125
22) 167.5625
23) 167.7875
24) 414.3000
25) 419.2000
26) 419.2250
27) 419.3500
28) 414.1000
29) 414.3500
30) 413.6250
31) 419.4750
32) 414.4000
33) 414.0750
FBI AIRCRAFT FREQUENCIES:
120.4250
167.4375
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02-14-2006 02:41 PM

GC Marciano Following is the Chicago FBI frequency list as programmed in

Copwatcher Extraordinaire their Motorola Sabre radios: These frequencies are heavily used
in and around Chicago, IL.
F1- 418.625
F2- 418.900
F3- 418.750
F4- 418.675
F5- 418.825
F6- 418.950
Registered: Jul 2003 F7- 418.975
Posts: 9967
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COPWATCH.com Forum - News: PERVERTED JUSTICE
COPWATCH.com Forum > NEWS SECTION > News: PERVERTED

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Man
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Beyond A-Rod and ManRam:

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Today we all stand before

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Board
Judge sentences man to 6 08-21-2009 02:04 PM

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COPWATCH.com Forum - Maricopa County Jailer Adam Stoddard (Gofer of Joke Arp1gg1o) Defies Court Order
COPWATCH.com Forum > NEWS SECTION > News: PERVERTED JUSTICE > Maricopa
County Jailer Adam Stoddard (Gofer of Joke Arp1gg1o) Defies Court Order
Author Thread
Night Raven Maricopa County Jailer Adam Stoddard (Gofer of Joke Arp1gg1o) Defies
Senior Member Court Order
Arizona detention officer refuses to apologize for swiping court files

(updated)
December 1st, 2009 · 11 Comments
Registered: May 2008 Update: The Phoenix New Times is reporting that Adam Stoddard
Location: must report to jail by midnight tonight. Who wants to hold their
Posts: 4804 breath?
Update: Heat City reports that Adam Stoddard is still on the job
despite the fact that he refused to abide by a judge’s order. In fact,
he is working in the courthouse.

By Carlos Miller
Defying a court order, Maricopa County detention officer Adam
Stoddard said he would rather go to jail than apologize for swiping
a defense attorney’s court file.
Now it’s up Superior Court Judge Gary Donahoe to follow through

on his contempt of court finding against Stoddard and place him in
jail.
However, Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio – who runs the jails –
has vowed to challenge the order if it comes down to that.
The original incident occurred in October as defense attorney

Joanne Cuccia was defending her client at the podium. It was
captured in the video below.
On November 17, Donahoe found Stoddard in contempt of court

and ordered him to issue a public apology to Cuccia by Dec. 1.
Monday night, on the eve before the deadline, Arpaio asked for an
extension to the deadline to prepare an appeal, according to Heat
City, which has done an excellent job of covering this debacle.
Donahoe refused the extension.
Then, when it appeared that Stoddard was not going to call a press
conference for his public apology, he called an impromptu press
conference at 8:30 p.m. Monday night – to state that he wasn’t
going to apologize.
This news was first broken on Heat City reporter Nick Martin’s
Twitter feed Monday night.
Stoddard was defiant, saying he would rather go to jail than

apologize for doing his job.
Martin then fleshed out the story today on Heat City.
In the above CBS video, Stoddard reads from a prepared

statement, saying he had a security concern when he pulled the
document out of the court file, which blatantly violated the sacred
attorney-client privilege.
http://carlosmiller.com/2009/12/01/...ng-court-files/
__________________


--Tom Robbins
12-01-2009 07:31 PM
liberranter This little piglet won't do even so much as an hour of jail time.
Super Moderator The cowardly bitch judge will back down in the 11th hour and
59th minute because, as I've said many times before in this
forum and elsewhere, he and his fellow black-robed, cross-
dressing scofflaw tyrants are 1) terrified of Joke Arpiggo and 2)
dependent on Joke and his homeboys in blue for their personal
protection.
If anything happens at all, I predict that Joke will publicly

humiliate Judge Donahoe in the end, all but publicly sodomizing
him while the judge grovels some incoherent bullshit rescinding
the apology order and dismissing all charges against Stoddard.
Posts: 5865 __________________
Thomas Jefferson

Grigg
12-01-2009 08:25 PM

MGMAN Its a damn shame that Maurice Clemmons did not pay a visit to
Senior Member Phoenix before he went and shot those 4 cops. That idiot sheriff and
his moron deputy need to meet up with some hot lead!!
__________________


Registered: Jan 2008 murderers! They killed a man in cold blood!!
Georgia
Posts: 1129
Militamus sub spe.
12-02-2009 12:50 AM
liberranter The Crybaby Thugs of Maricopa County

Super Moderator
http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lew...ves/044188.html
Posted by William Grigg on December 3, 2009 03:10 AM
Anyone who has had the misfortune of being a defendant —

even in traffic court — can attest to the tension, anxiety, and
humiliation that experience entails.
People who have stood before a judge can also understand just
Registered: Jun 2005 how easy it is to be hit with a contempt citation, and how
Location: Tucson, AZ difficult it is to suppress the urge to display appropriate
Posts: 5865 contempt toward the preening specimen in judicial robes, who
demands deference of the sort properly reserved for the Deity.
By way of illustration: About three years ago, a Utah man

named Kent Jacobson became bored and impatient while a
district judge named Leslie Lewis disgorged a long, tiresome
harangue about the supposed evils of hunting. Kent’s brother,
Michael, was accused of poaching. When Kent grew weary of
Judge Lewis’ monologue, he emitted a sigh and left the
courtroom, only to be dragged back by a bailiff.

Lewis tauntingly asked Kent if he was bored. When Kent politely

began to reply, Lewis cut him off and had him arrested for
“contempt.”
“I’m not going to argue with you, and you have no business
chastising me, sir, and I did not make a comment that you have
any right to correct,” sneered Lewis as Kent was hauled out in
handcuffs. “I don’t want to hear a word from you. You and I are
not in the same position, we’re not having a dialogue.”
The proper response to Lewis, of course, would have been: “No,

we’re not in the same position: I’m a productive member of
society, and you’re a self-important, tax-fed parasite.”
Fortunately, Lewis became the second district judge in the

history of Utah to be removed by majority vote of the electorate.
Most of the time, however, judges who display similar arrogant,

dismissive contempt for their betters among the productive
class are entirely beyond accountability. Perhaps the only
people for whom they have anything resembling respect are the
armed enforcers who carry out their orders. This is why the
unfolding confrontation between a judge and the local sheriff’s
office in Arizona’s Maricopa County is so fraught with fascination.
On Monday, Maricopa Sheriff’s Deputy Adam Stoddard went to

jail as a result of a contempt charge. Stoddard, while acting as
a bailiff, was videotaped stealing a document from the desk of a
defense attorney.
Stoddard claimed to have seen something in the handwritten

documents that constituted a threat to “court security.”
Superior Court Judge Gary Donahoe wasn’t buying that
explanation and was offended Stoddard was trying to sell it.
However, perhaps mindful of the need to maintain cordial

relations with the brown-shirted paladins of public order
who carry out his decrees, Judge Donahoe didn’t send
Stoddard immediately to jail, or slap him with a fine —
punitive options he wouldn’t have hesitated to use
against a mere mundane. Instead, he ordered Stoddard
to apologize, in public, to defense attorney Joanne Cuccia for
stealing the document and violating attorney-client privilege.
Granted, this “compromise” created more problems than it

would have solved. But Stoddard at least would not have been
ignominiously hauled away to jail.
With the support of his Dear Leader, the oleaginous proto-

fascist named Sheriff Joe Arpaio, Stoddard defied the court
order. Doubtless perceiving himself to be a martyr to principle
— a veritable reincarnation of Sir Thomas More — Stoddard

held a press conference to declare that he wouldn’t apologize

“for doing my job,” and that saying he is sorry would be a “lie.”
At some point Monday evening, Stoddard checked in to the

Maricopa County Jail system, a PR-oriented gulag in which male
prisoners are required to wear pink underwear, inmates are fed
green bologna, and more than a few have died through criminal
violence or neglect on the part of Arpaio’s brownshirts.
Fret not for Adam Stoddard’s safety: As someone Arpaio has

described as a “political prisoner” detained on the orders of a
judge with a supposed “vendetta” against him, Stoddard will be
almost certainly be spared the indignity of pink underwear and
the horrors of green bologna as an inmate in a special, detainee-
friendly facility referred to as the “Mesa Hilton.
Here’s another unique perk that sets Stoddard apart from

others confined to Arpaio’s gulag: The Maricopa County
Association of Detention Officers (yes, even prison screws have
a union) is standing “in solidarity” with him. That’s why 20 of
those intrepid, public-spirited people suddenly called in “sick”
Tuesday morning, thereby throwing the Superior Court into
disarray.
Things got even nastier when an anonymous bomb threat was

called in. That bomb threat — which would be considered an act
of terrorism, were it carried out by a common citizen — helped
create a large audience for the police union thugs as they made
a demand that Stoddard be released from jail and have his
record cleared. A demand made in similar fashion by advocates
of an innocently imprisoned private citizen would probably
provoke a RICO prosecution.
Maricopa County Deputy Sean Pearce, speaking on behalf of

another tax-feeder union, the Deputies Law Enforcement
Association, didn’t flinch from describing the events of Tuesday
morning as a show of support for Stoddard: “I think it sends out
a message that this officer has integrity,” Stoddard insisted.
“Why should he apologize for doing his job?”
The “job” in question, apparently, includes stealing proprietary

information, violating attorney-client confidentiality, lying about
one’s actions, and defying an order to make restitution to the
victim.
“Judge Donahoe has ordered me to feel something I do not and

say something I cannot,” insisted Deputy Stoddard in his
Monday evening press conference. But the same can truthfully
be said by countless innocent people who have been put
through the indignity of the “justice” system — from those
found guilty of traffic violations on the fraudulent, self-
interested testimony of traffic cops, to people who have been

blackmailed into accepting plea bargains by devious,

unprincipled prosecutors.
But Deputy Stoddard is one of the sacred personages who wear

a government-issued costume and is invested with the
supposed authority to kill other human beings. It’s just not righ
for members of that privileged elite to be treated like mere
mundanes. Hence the collective tantrum being thrown by
Stoddard’s fellow tax-feeders.
__________________
Thomas Jefferson

Grigg
12-03-2009 12:23 PM
pyo1 Bomb threat, absent deputies halt court

Senior Member
Bomb threat, absent deputies halt court

Registered: May 2009 Gary Grado, Tribune
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1564
December 2, 2009 - 4:16PM
A bomb threat and a high number of absent Maricopa County

sheriff's deputies and detention officers brought justice to a halt
Wednesday in Superior Court in downtown Phoenix.
The day began with 20 sheriff's officers who provide security and
move inmates to court calling in sick.
A union representative and a sheriff's spokesman said it is unclear

why so many officers called in sick, but the sick calls came on the
day after a detention officer turned himself into jail after refusing to
follow a court order to apologize publicly to a defense attorney
whose paperwork he searched during court.

The sick calls were not an organized show of solidarity for the jailed
detention officer, Adam Stoddard, said officer Katie Perez, a
spokeswoman for the Maricopa County Association of Detention
Officers.
"I haven't heard of any sickout or anything like that," Perez said. "If
people have called in, it's come on their own terms."
Sheriff's spokesman Aaron Douglas said investigators are going to

look into whether there was an organized effort.
Douglas said employees are advised to stay home if they are feeling
flulike symptoms, and officers who work with inmates are
susceptible to illness.
"Because of the timing this all seems like a conspiracy and silent
protest, but we have not found anything to validate that," Douglas
said.
Maricopa Superior Court Judge Gary Donahoe ruled Nov. 18 that

Stoddard acted in contempt when he pulled two pieces of
handwritten paper out of attorney Joanne Cuccia's file during an
Oct. 19 sentencing.
Stoddard testified that he saw four words - "going to," "steal" and
"money" - in a document sticking out of the file that led him to
believe Cuccia's client posed some sort of security threat.
Donahoe ordered Stoddard to hold a news conference by Nov. 30 to

apologize for his actions or report to jail by Dec. 1.
Court spokeswoman Karen Arra declined to say how much of an

impact the sick deputies had on court proceedings.
Court came to a halt anyway at 10 a.m. Wednesday, when the

Phoenix Police Department received a "viable threat" from a pay
phone outside the courthouse, Douglas said.
Three court buildings that house 72 courtrooms and hundreds of

workers were evacuated for the next 3 1/2 hours as the sheriff's
bomb squad and bomb-sniffing dogs swept the area.
Douglas said no explosives were found.
http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/story/147902
__________________
I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them
tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break
them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible
for everything I do.
~Robert A. Heinlein

12-03-2009 03:18 PM

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COPWATCH.com Forum - Texas Executed An Innocent Man
COPWATCH.com Forum > NEWS SECTION > News: PERVERTED JUSTICE > Texas
Executed An Innocent Man
Author Thread
Night Raven Texas Executed An Innocent Man

Senior Member
Texas Executed An Innocent Man

By The Innocence Project
Posted on August 31, 2009, Printed on August 31, 2009
http://www.alternet.org/bloggers//142318/
Editor's Note: This is an Innocence Project Media Advisory
Registered: May 2008 "There can no longer be any doubt that an innocent person has
Location: been executed. The question now turns to how we can stop it from
Posts: 4804
happening again." -- Innocence Project Co-Director Barry Scheck.
NEW YORK; August 31, 2009 -- An exhaustive new investigative

report shows that Cameron Todd Willingham, who was executed in
Texas in 2004, was innocent. The report comes three years after

the Innocence Project released analysis from some of the nation's

leading forensic experts who found that the central evidence
against Willingham was not valid. The Innocence Project also
obtained public records showing that Texas officials ignored this
evidence in the days leading up to Willingham's execution.
Willingham was convicted of arson murder in 1992 and was

executed in February 2004. His three young children died at a fire
in the family's Corsicana, Texas, home. At Willingham's trial,
forensic experts testified that evidence showed the fire was
intentionally set. A jailhouse informant also testified against
Willingham, and other circumstantial evidence was used against
him.
A 16,000-word report in the September 7 issue of the New Yorker

deconstructs every facet of the case, finding that none of the
evidence against Willingham was valid. Prior to the New Yorker's
investigative report, by David Grann, the forensic science had been
debunked as completely erroneous (including in a 2004
investigative report in the Chicago Tribune), but the other evidence
was never examined closely.
"The New Yorker's investigation lays out this case in its totality and
leads to the inescapable conclusion that Willingham was innocent.
There can no longer be any doubt that an innocent person has been
executed," said Innocence Project Co-Director Barry Scheck. "The
question now turns to how we can stop it from happening again."
"As long as our system of justice makes mistakes -- including the

ultimate mistake -- we cannot continue executing people," Scheck
said. "This case also highlights serious problems with forensic
science in this country. The vast majority of forensic scientists are
honest, capable, hard-working professionals, but we aren't giving
them the tools they need to do the job. Congress needs to create a
National Institute of Forensic Science that can spark research to
determine the accuracy of forensic disciplines and set standards for
how our system of justice uses science."
In May 2006, the Innocence Project (which is affiliated with Cardozo

School of Law) formally submitted the Willingham case to the Texas
Forensic Science Commission, along with information about another
arson case and a request that the panel order a review of arson
convictions across the state. In the other arson case, Ernest Willis
was convicted of an unrelated arson murder and sentenced to death
in 1987, and he served 17 years in prison before he was
exonerated. The May 2006 filing included a 48-page report from an
independent five-member panel of some of the nation's leading
arson investigators, who reviewed more than 1,000 pages of
evidence, testimony and official documents in the two cases.
In the report, the arson experts -- with a combined 138 years of

experience in the field -- say that neither of the fires which

Willingham and Willis were convicted of setting were arson. The

expert report notes that the evidence and forensic analysis in the
Willingham and Willis cases "were the same," and that "each and
every one" of the forensic interpretations that state experts made in
both men's trials have been proven scientifically invalid.
In 2007, the Texas Forensic Science Commission announced that it

had accepted the Innocence Project's complaint and would launch
an investigation. The commission contracted with Craig Beyler, a
widely respected arson expert, to conduct an independent review of
the evidence. Last week, Beyler filed his report with the
commission, finding that the forensic analysis in Willingham's case
was wrong. The commission announced that it is reviewing Beyler's
report and will review other evidence before issuing its conclusion
next year.
"The Forensic Science Commission is still looking at this case and

the broader issue of arson convictions statewide. Members of the
commission are clearly taking this very seriously, carefully and
thoughtfully, and they should have the space to do their work,"
Scheck said. "The Forensic Science Commission is not going to
determine whether an innocent man was executed. The New Yorker
has already done that. The commission will determine what went
wrong with the forensic analysis, how widespread the problem is
and how we can be sure similar analysis is more reliable in the
future."
© 2009 All rights reserved.

View this story online at: http://www.alternet.org/
bloggers//142318/
__________________

--Tom Robbins
08-31-2009 03:52 PM

pyo1 Scientists Slam Evidence Used in Execution

Senior Member
Registered: May 2009 Posted: Tuesday, August 25, 2009

Location: Oklahoma Updated: August 25th, 2009 01:15 PM GMT-05:00
Posts: 1564
Most Read Most E-mailed E-mail Article Print Article
By STEVE MILLS
Chicago Tribune
CHICAGO, Ill. -- In a withering critique, a nationally known fire

scientist has told a state commission on forensics that Texas fire
investigators had no basis to rule a deadly house fire was arson - a
finding that led to the murder conviction and execution of Cameron
Todd Willingham.
The finding comes in the first state-sanctioned review of an

execution in Texas, home to the country's busiest death chamber. If
the commission reaches the same conclusion, it could lead to the
first-ever declaration by an official state body that an inmate was
wrongly executed.
Indeed, the report concludes there was no evidence to determine

that the December 1991 fire was even set, and it leaves open the
possibility the blaze that killed three children was an accident and
there was no crime at all - the same findings found in a Chicago
Tribune investigation of the case published in December 2004.
Willingham, the father of those children, was executed by lethal

injection in February 2004. He protested his innocence to the end.
The Tribune obtained a copy of the review by Craig Beyler, of

Hughes Associates Inc., which was conducted for the Texas
Forensic Science Commission, created to investigate allegations of
forensic error and misconduct. The re-examination of the
Willingham case comes as many forensic disciplines face scrutiny
for playing a role in wrongful convictions that have been exposed by
DNA and other scientific advances.
Among Beyler's key findings: that investigators failed to examine all

of the electrical outlets and appliances in the Willingham house in
the small Texas town of Corsicana, did not consider other potential
causes for the fire, came to conclusions that contradicted the
witnesses at the scene, and wrongly concluded Willingham's injuries
could not have been caused as he said they were.
The state fire marshal on the case, Beyler concluded in his report,
had "limited understanding" of fire science. The fire marshal "seems
to be wholly without any realistic understanding of fires and how
fire injuries are created," he wrote.

The marshal's findings, he added, "are nothing more than a

collection of personal beliefs that have nothing to do with science-
based fire investigation."
Over the last five years, the Willingham case has been reviewed by
nine of the nation's top fire scientists - first for the Tribune, then for
the Innocence Project and now for the commission. All concluded
that the original investigators relied on outdated theories and
folklore to justify the determination of an arson.
The only other evidence of significance against Willingham was

another inmate who testified that Willingham had confessed to him.
Jailhouse snitches are viewed with skepticism in the justice system,
so much so that some jurisdictions have restrictions against their
use.
Samuel Bassett, an attorney who is the chairman of the

commission, said the panel will seek a response from the state fire
marshal and then write its own report.
Contacted Monday, one of Willingham's cousins said she was

pleased with Beyler's report but was skeptical that top state officials
would acknowledge Willingham's innocence.
"They are definitely going to have to respond to it," said Pat Cox.
"But it's difficult for me to believe that the state of Texas or the
governor will take responsibility and admit they did in fact
wrongfully execute Todd. They'll dance around it."
Distributed by McClatchy-Tribune Information Services.
__________________
~Robert A. Heinlein
08-31-2009 05:10 PM

Night Raven Willingham Case Highlights Fears of Executing Innocent People

Senior Member
Willingham Case Highlights Fears of Executing Innocent People
Cameron Todd Willingham’s last words were: "I have been

persecuted 12 years for something I didn’t do." And now, five years
after he was executed by the state of Texas, Willingham is probably
as close to an exoneration as he’ll ever get. The blogs and news
media have been filled with commentary about the revelation that
Registered: May 2008 Willingham was most likely innocent when he was executed, and it’s
Location: renewing calls for an examination of the death penalty in this
Posts: 4804
country.
In The Hill blog, John Feehery writes:
Without getting into all of the facts in this particular case, it is clear
that we live with an imperfect justice system. The system makes
mistakes. Wrong people are accused and convicted. Witnesses
sometimes misremember the facts, and sometimes they lie for their
own self-interest. Sometimes cops make mistakes, and sometimes
prosecutors reach the wrong conclusions.
But the death penalty, when carried out, is always perfect. It

always kills the target, and kills the target permanently. And once
you kill the accused, you can’t really turn back the clock. If the
system turns out to be wrong, as it does on occasion, saying you
are sorry doesn’t do much good.
The Los Angeles Times reports that a new study by University of

California, Santa Cruz, professor Craig Haney finds that support for
the death penalty among Californians is down:
A majority of Californians still favor the death penalty, but their
support has waned from 79% to 66% over the last two decades as
fears of executing the wrongly convicted escalate, a researcher
reported Tuesday.
…Support for the death penalty plunged to 26% when respondents

were offered the alternative of guaranteed life imprisonment and
the requirement that the offender work to pay restitution to victims
and their families, Haney said.
Jonah Lehrer offered this fascinating meditation on the injustice of

Willingham’s execution in the Daily Dish:
These stories of a failed justice are important, and not just because
they expose specific errors…Instead, I think these harrowing tales
need to be told because they contradict a powerful moral intuition
we all share, which can unfortunately lead us to turn a blind eye:
Because we believe in justice, we ignore stories of injustice.
Finally, the Philadelphia Inquirer brought the argument back to

present-day by comparing Willingham’s case to that of Troy Davis:
Davis’ and Willingham’s cases again raise strong questions about
capital punishment and whether it can ever be fairly administered,

especially when the defendant is poor or a minority, like Davis, and

statistically more likely to get a death sentence.
…The risk of a wrongful execution is simply too great to continue

with capital punishment.
Davis’s case was recently reviewed by the U.S. Supreme Court, and
sent back to a lower court for the evidentiary hearing he’s been
asking for all along. Hopefully Georgia will learn a lesson from
Texas, and give Davis the chance at life that Willingham never had.
h/t: Steve Hall, StandDown
http://blog.aclu.org/2009/09/02/wil...nnocent-people/
__________________

--Tom Robbins
09-03-2009 01:04 PM
liberranter When it comes to imposing the death penalty, no state in the

Super Moderator union is as reckless, careless, and bloodthirsty as Texas. The
Lone Star State deserves censure for this, and the no doubt
dozens, if not hundreds of past executions of the innocent.
__________________
Thomas Jefferson

Location: Tucson, AZ "And this brings us to a point that has to be driven home with
Posts: 5865 the pitiless force of a jackhammer: It is the guilty, collusive
Grigg

09-03-2009 04:00 PM

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COPWATCH.com Forum - Today we all stand before Leonard Peltier’s Parole Board
COPWATCH.com Forum > NEWS SECTION > News: PERVERTED JUSTICE > Today we
all stand before Leonard Peltier’s Parole Board
Author Thread
Night Raven Today we all stand before Leonard Peltier’s Parole Board
Senior Member
Wed Jul 29 2009
Columns
Harvey Wasserman
Today we all stand before Leonard Peltier’s Parole Board

Registered: May 2008 July 28, 2009
Location:
Posts: 4804 Native American activist Leonard Peltier has been in prison for more
than 12,226 days, more than 33 years. His is one of the longest
ordeals of any political prisoner in human history.
With him, our souls have suffered. Our bodies ache for his freedom.

Today, July 28, 2009, Peltier goes before the Federal Parole
Commission in Lewisburg, Pennsylvania. All over the world,
beginning in the wee hours of the morning in the South Pacific,
prayer vigils, peace marches, ecumenical gatherings, group
chantings and all forms of individual meditation accompany this
hearing. It is one of the most important tests of the new Obama
Administration.
Peltier was charged more than a third of a century ago with the
murder of two FBI agents. The circumstances of the prosecution,
and the legal history of the case, involve thousands of pages of
missing evidence, compromised witnesses and procedures so
twisted as to stagger the imagination and leave any sense of fair
play and reasonable jurisprudence buried in the dust.
Through it all, Peltier has maintained his dignity and strength with
astonishing grace. He will be 65 years old in September, having
spent more than half his life behind bars. His body is wracked with
prison-related ailments. He has great grandchildren he has never
seen.
Yet his writings remain politically astute, spiritually compelling and

unfailingly compassionate.
Supporters believe the time is “favorable” for his release. The four-
member Parole Commission that will weigh his plea is chaired by
Isaac Fulwood, Jr. (http://www.usdoj.gov/uspc/fulwood.htm)
originally appointed by George W. Bush, elevated to the chair in
May by Barack Obama.
Obama himself has the power through various legal means to end
Peltier’s torture and make him a free man.
Peltier’s defense attorney, Eric Seitz, has expressed optimism that

the Commission will grant Peltier his freedom, especially given
Leonard’s exemplary behavior in prison, the utter collapse of the
case against him, his health, age and other factors, not least of
which may be a changed political and cultural climate. But Seitz has
warned in an interview with Amy Goodman on Democracy Now of
prior disappointments (http://www.democracynow.org/2009/7/...
ring_to_be_held _tuesday ) .
Millions of supporters worldwide have suffered with Leonard over

the decades as with no other political prisoner. His case stands as
an emblem of the tortured relationship between the US Government
and the Native American community, says Tony Gonzalez (of the
Comca'ac-Chicano tribe) of the American Indian Movement (http://
www.aimovement.org) founded, he says, 41 years ago today.
Meaningful steps toward healing that relationship will be very hard

to take until Leonard Peltier is free to re-join his family.
This is a critical moment in the Obama Era. Bill Clinton was

thoroughly briefed by numerous people very close to the Peltier

case, but did not free him. Constitutional scholar Barack Obama is
also well aware of this horrific imprisonment.
Peltier’s freedom marks a monumental corner that must be turned.

For those millions who have ached through the terrible injustice and
sheer physical and spiritual pain of this imprisonment, it is a
moment of liberation that must come.
Only a strongly supportive political climate can guarantee it

happens. Call your Senators and Representatives as well as the
White House and Parole Board, newspapers and radio shows, web
friends and neighbors down the street. Meditate, pray, march,
dance, sing, shout, laugh, cry….do whatever you can to help move
this man out of his jail cell and into the open air after 33 hellish
years.
This imprisonment must end. Rarely has it been more true that
freeing a single human being will help free us all.
For more see: MY LIFE IS MY SUNDANCE, by Leonard Peltier; IN

THE SPIRIT OF CRAZY HORSE by Peter Mattheissen; Robert
Redford’s INCIDENT AT OGLALLA http://video.google.com/
videoplay?d...25247691110146; http://www.leonardpeltier.net;
www.whoisleonardpeltier.info.
__________________

--Tom Robbins
07-29-2009 01:03 PM

Night Raven How Leonard Peltier could leave prison by August 18

Senior Member
Fri Jul 31 2009
Columns
Harvey Wasserman
How Leonard Peltier could leave prison by August 18

Registered: May 2008 July 30, 2009
Location:
Posts: 4804 For a formidable and growing global community of supporters, the
prospect of Native American activist Leonard Peltier finally leaving
prison inspires a longing that cuts to the depths of the soul.
So Peltier’s first parole hearing of the Obama Era---on Tuesday,

July 28---inspired hope of an intensity that will have a major impact
on the new presidency. A decision must come from the Federal
Parole Commission within three weeks. His attorney is calling for a
surge of public support that would create an irresistible political
climate for Leonard’s release.
The relationship between Peltier and those who have followed his
case over the decades can be intensely personal. His imprisonment
has come to stand not only for five centuries of unjust violence
waged against Native Americans, but also for the inhumane theft of
the life of a man who has handled his 33 years in jail with epic
dignity, effectiveness and grace.
Peltier’s latest parole hearing convened at the federal penitentiary

in Lewisburg, Pennsylvania, where he is currently held. According to
Eric Seitz, Peltier’s Honolulu-based attorney, Peltier spoke for more
than an hour “with great eloquence” about the nature of his case,
his imprisonment and his plans for freedom. “The hearing officer
seemed to listen carefully,” said Seitz. “We thought it went very
well.”
The decision on Peltier’s parole will be made by the four sitting

members of the Federal Parole Commission (http://www.usdoj.gov/
uspc/ ) whose offices are in Chevy Chase, Maryland.
Commissioners Isaac Fulwood, Jr., Cranston Mitchell, Edward Reilly

and Patricia Cushware are all Bush appointees. One seat is vacant;
Fulwood was elevated to the Chairman’s seat in May by President
Obama.
According to Seitz, the hearing was taped by an officer charged

with reporting to the Commissioners within 48 hours. The
Commissioners are required to render a decision within 21 days---
by August 18. Should they rule in his favor, Peltier could walk out of
prison very soon after the decision is issued.
Should the Commssioners turn down his parole application, Seitz

says the appeal would go to the federal district court in Harrisburg.

The report of the hearing would become available to Peltier and the
public.
Seitz said he spoke to the record for about 20 minutes on the

legalities of the case. He said Peter Mattheissen, author of IN THE
SPIRIT OF CRAZY HORSE, explained the history of the 1970s
incidents that led to Peltier being accused of murdering two FBI
agents. CRAZY HORSE is the definitive account of the origins of the
case and of the climate of violence and repression imposed on the
native community at the time of the killings. Seitz said Mattheissen
emphasized “the many reasons to have misgivings about whether
the system performed well and fairly in Leonard's case.”
Mattheissen was joined by Dr.Thomas Fassett of the United

Methodist Church, who testified, said Seitz, “to the negative impact
of Peltier’s 33-year imprisonment on the world’s view of how the US
government treats its native population. Leonard's case is viewed in
the larger community both nationally & internationally as a major
embarrassment…as a gross injustice…a black mark.”
The testimony was accompanied by thousands of letters, with

signees including South African Bishop Desmond Tutu, US Senator
Daniel Inouye (D-HI), and actor Robert Redford, whose film
INCIDENT AT OGALALA is the definitive documentary.
Cynthia Maleterre of the Turtle Island Clan then outlined how Peltier
could meet the requirements of parole in his home community in
North Dakota. Restored to his Chippewa-Dakota homeland,
Maleterre explained that Peltier would have housing, a job and be
surrounded by family, including great-grandchildren he has never
seen.
Seitz said testimony opposing parole came from a representative of

the FBI, sent by Director Robert Mueller, a holdover Bush
appointee, and from the former director of the Minnesota Bureau.
Two sons of Jack Coler, one of the FBI agents killed in the Ogalala
shoot-out, also argued against Peltier being freed, as did a former
agent named Ed Woods.
Seitz said that all those opposing parole argued Peltier should
spend the rest of his days in prison, and did not deserve a new trial.
But Seitz was “guardedly optimistic” about a favorable decision

from the Parole Commission. He said that a “good rapport” had
been established with the hearing officer, and that the new chair of
the commission is generally held “in high esteem.”
President Barack Obama does have the power to grant clemency,

but Seitz said prisoners apply only when all other avenues have
been exhausted. Usually, says Seitz, “presidential pardons do not
come until the Chief Executive is leaving office.”
Seitz says letters to the Parole Commission and to local

newspapers, calls to Congressional Representatives (202-224-

3121), talk show hosts and other forms of public pressure are now
of the utmost importance. The hope, he says, lies in creating a
“public environment favorable to release.”
As Leonard Peltier approaches his 65th year---having spent half his

life in prison---every day is now critical to lifting this burden from
our collective souls.
For more information go to http://www.leonardpeltier.net.
http://www.freepress.org/columns/display/7/2009/1759
__________________

--Tom Robbins
07-31-2009 11:07 AM
Night Raven The clock is ticking ever faster for Leonard Peltier
Senior Member
Harvey Wasserman
The clock is ticking ever faster for Leonard Peltier

August 11, 2009
By Tuesday, August 18, the four sitting members of the Federal

Parole Commission must decide whether they will let Leonard
Registered: May 2008 Peltier rejoin his family.
Location:
Posts: 4804 Leonard has been in prison for a staggering 33 years, six more than
Nelson Mandela. When he was locked up, Three Mile Island was
three years away, and Ronald Reagan had barely begun to run for
President.
Leonard has great-grandchildren he has never held.
His most recent hearing was June 28. According to his lawyer, Eric
Seitz, it went very well. The Parole Commission had 21 days from
then to issue its decision.

Now we are down to the final week.
All those familiar with the case agree that a positive political climate
can make a difference in the decision. Calls to politicians (202-224-
3121) could make all the difference, as could overnight letters to
the Parole Commission (http://www.usdoj.gov/uspc/).
Below are two draft letters the attorney has termed "a little
melodramatic but otherwise ok." Your own versions are more than
welcome.
Leonard’s release would do much to begin the healing process

between the native community and the US government. He has
handled himself through this torturous third of a century with
astonishing dignity, grace and eloquence.
Please do not let this moment go by without doing SOMETHING.
DRAFT LETTER ONE:

Dear Commissioners,
Isaac Fulwood, Jr., Cranston Mitchell, Edward Reilly and Patricia

Cushware
Leonard Peltier is a man of deep sensitivities and compassion. It's

no accident he has become a figure of tremendous empathy and
personal pain all over the world.
For 33 years he has maintained his dignity and composure under

incredibly difficult circumstances. He is now approaching the age of
65, and suffers from a wide range of ailments that threaten his
continued existence. He has grandchildren and great-grandchildren
he has never seen.
Leonard has a community of relations and supporters desperately

awaiting his return. His freedom will come as a huge boost to our
country's standing in the world. It will begin a desperately-needed
healing process between our government and the native peoples of
our own country and around the globe.
I urge you to look into your hearts at this man who has spent more
than half his life behind bars and reunite him at last with his family.
Thank you,
DRAFT TWO:
To: US Parole Commission
Commissioners Isaac Fulwood, Jr., Cranston Mitchell, Edward Reilly

and Patricia Cushware
Dear Commissioners
It is in your power to right a great wrong, to grant a man and his

children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren the right to live the

rest of their lives together in peace, and to remove a great stain

from the global reputation of the American justice system.
For more than half his life, Leonard Peltier has been held in prison
for a crime millions of people worldwide do not believe he
committed.
Throughout his imprisonment, Mr. Peltier has conducted himself

with extraordinary dignity and grace. His behavior has become an
inspiration to countless citizens within the United States and
virtually everywhere else on Earth.
Leonard Peltier’s time in prison now exceeds that of Nelson Mandela

by six years. Yet he is viewed with much the same reverence and
respect as the man who went from a jail cell to the presidency of
the nation that put him there. When Mandela was finally set free,
the system of racial hatred and separation that plagued South
Africa began to crumble, to the betterment of all.
Leonard Peltier was a young man when he entered the prison

system; he is now nearly 65. He is plagued with diabetes and a
range of other serious illnesses that make it highly possible further
imprisonment could result in his death, an outcome of horrific
personal and political implications for all Americans. We would all
have his blood on our hands.
To follow the history of the legal proceedings that put Leonard

Peltier in prison is to journey enter a nightmare of missing
documents, perjured testimony, implausible accusations and an
impossible conviction.
It is not our intent here to reproduce the massive record

surrounding this case. But we would be remiss to say any thing
other than this incarceration is viewed throughout the world as a
blight on the reputation of American jurisprudence.
We believe that 33 years of imprisonment meets the standard of

cruel and unusual punishment set out in the Eighth Amendment to
the Constitution of the United States. Its drafters would have freed
Leonard Peltier long ago. Indeed, we do not believe great legal
thinkers such as James Madison, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams
would have put Mr. Peltier in prison in the first place.
Every day Leonard Peltier is kept behind bars drives a wedge that
grows deeper between this nation’s government and its native
population. His time in jail is viewed with great antipathy by native
populations, and their supporters, throughout the world.
This is a five-century wound that can only begin to heal when

Leonard Peltier is released. We ask that you bring to yourselves and
the rest of this nation the great relief that will accompany Leonard
Peltier’s return to his family.
Thank you,

For more information see www.leonardpeltier.net.
http://www.freepress.org/columns/display/7/2009/1763
__________________

--Tom Robbins
08-12-2009 11:30 AM
liberranter Leonard Peltier is a political prisoner, pure and simple. An

Super Moderator objective parole board would grant him parole immediately (in
absence of a just appeals court overturning his travesty of a
sentence, this is the best he can hope for). Let us hope that
federal manipulation and misconduct don't make their presence
felt, but I'm not optimistic about that note.
__________________
Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 5865
Grigg

08-12-2009 02:06 PM
Night Raven American Indian activist Leonard Peltier, convicted in FBI agent deaths,
Senior Member denied parol
latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/wire/sns-ap-us-peltier-
parole,0,1411297.story
American Indian activist Leonard Peltier, convicted in FBI agent

deaths, denied parole
BLAKE NICHOLSON
Location: Associated Press Writer
Posts: 4804
12:17 PM PDT, August 21, 2009
BISMARCK, N.D. (AP) — American Indian activist Leonard Peltier,

imprisoned since 1977 for the deaths of two FBI agents, has been
denied parole after authorities decided that releasing him would
diminish the seriousness of his crime, a federal prosecutor said
Friday.
Peltier, who claims the FBI framed him, will not be eligible for
parole again until July 2024, when he will be 79 years old.
U.S. Attorney Drew Wrigley announced the decision of the U.S.

Parole Commission.
Peltier is serving two life sentences for the execution-style deaths of

FBI agents Jack Coler and Ronald Williams during a June 26, 1975,
standoff on South Dakota's Pine Ridge Indian Reservation. He was
convicted in Fargo, N.D., in 1977.
He has said the FBI framed him, which the agency denies, and
unsuccessfully appealed his conviction numerous times. He also was
denied parole in 1993.
"Leonard Peltier is an unrepentant, cold-blooded murderer who

executed FBI special agents Williams and Coler, and in doing that
he tore them from their families and from their communities
forever," Wrigley said. "Leonard Peltier is exactly where he belongs
— federal prison, serving two life sentences."
An angry defense attorney Eric Seitz declined to comment Friday,

saying the Parole Commission had not had the "courtesy" to inform
him of the decision. "We've heard nothing," he said.
Parole Commission spokesman Tom Hutchison said the board

notifies both sides of a decision, and can't control whether one
party makes it public before the other can be notified.
Peltier had a full parole hearing for the first time in 15 years last
month at the Lewisburg, Pa., federal prison where he is being held.
The hearing was closed to the public, but Seitz said he focused on

factors that would support parole. He said a representative from the

Turtle Mountain Band of Chippewa reservation in North Dakota,
where Peltier grew up, said the tribe had made arrangements to
incorporate Peltier back into society should he be paroled. Seitz also
said Peltier has had no documented misconduct in prison in the past
10 years.
Wrigley said Peltier's past criminal conduct while behind bars was a
factor in the Parole Commission's decision. In 1979, Peltier escaped
for a time in California, and he also has had numerous infractions in
prison, some of them drug-related.
Wrigley also said that Peltier "has neither accepted responsibility for
the murders nor shown any remorse."
Seitz said earlier that the 64-year-old Peltier is in poor health, with
diabetes, high blood pressure, a jaw problem and a urinary system
ailment.
Parole was abolished for federal convicts in 1987, but Peltier

remains eligible because he was convicted before then.
Copyright 2009 Associated Press.
latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/wire/sns-ap-us-peltier-
parole,0,1411297.story
__________________

--Tom Robbins
08-21-2009 10:56 PM


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COPWATCH.com Forum - LAPD Police Terrorist Thugs Hi-5 Each Other Over Shooting Death of Toddler! (CA)
COPWATCH.com Forum > NEWS SECTION > News: PERVERTED JUSTICE > LAPD
Police Terrorist Thugs Hi-5 Each Other Over Shooting Death of Toddler! (CA)
Author Thread
Vigilance LAPD Police Terrorist Thugs Hi-5 Each Other Over Shooting Death of
Senior Member Toddler!
This type of brain dead, insensitive, cool blooded, and asshole

behavior apparently is indicative of LAPD copscum thugs.
Even though is was the scumbag attorneys actually doing the hi-
5ing, a police spokesman could have and SHOULD have stepped up
and stopped it and expressed the death of the toddler. The copsum
silence speaks volumes about their character, integrity, and honor.
quote:
Location:
Posts: 915 Judge dismisses suit filed by mother of toddler killed by
LAPD bullet [Updated]

11:08 AM | August 3, 2009

In a victory for the Los Angeles Police Department, a
judge this morning threw out a lawsuit filed against the
city by the mother of a 19-month-old toddler killed by a
bullet fired by SWAT officers during an attempted
hostage rescue in 2005.
The case before L.A. Superior Court Judge Rolf M. Treu

was set to go to the jury this week after SWAT officers
and police experts completed their testimony.
But Treu this morning granted the city's motion to

dismiss the case, saying a jury could reach only one
conclusion: that the officers acted reasonably.
Attorneys for Lorena Lopez, mother of 1 1/2-year-old

Suzie Pena, argued in the trial that officers should have
retreated and negotiated further with Raul Pena, who
was delirious on alcohol and cocaine and holding his
daughter hostage in the office of his car dealership on
July 10, 2005.
The city contended that officers attempted the rescue

in the best tactical way possible, and that the baby's
father was the only one to blame for her death because
he repeatedly held her as a shield during the hours-
long standoff.
[Updated at 11:22 a.m. City Atty. Carmen Trutanich,

who was being interviewed by The Times when a
deputy city attorney came into his office announce the
news, jumped from his chair with a cheer and high-
fived the lawyer. Millions of city dollars had been in
jeopardy, he said.
“This is a case where nobody wins except the citizens,

because no one should have been sued in this case,”
said Trutanich, who spent four hours personally vetting
the evidence with the city's legal team before it went to
trial.
“Police did everything pursuant to procedure, they were

caught in a terrible situation -- in fact one officer was
shot as they were charging the door because they
believed the father was going to kill the child.”
"I'm a father, I understand what it means to have a

child killed," Trutanich said, "but you know there's a big
difference between killing a kid because of something
that overtly you did wrong and charging the city of Los
Angeles, which was there not only trying to save that
child's life, [but also] the mother, and the
stepdaughter, the citizens around."

"There were 200 and some odd shots fired -- can you
imagine the risk to the surrounding public at that
time?" Trutanich said. "To me that cop should have
been given a medal of valor, he's charging the place,
takes a shot in the arm … and then continues to go
forward, bleeding, to save that child's life as the father
is cranking off 41 different shots. And then they get
sued -- that's 'no good deed goes unpunished.' "]
-- Victoria Kim and Maeve Reston
Photo: Los Angeles City Attorney Carmen Trutanich,

left, high fives staff lawyers in his office after being told
that the suit stemming from the LAPD shooting had
been dismissed. Credit: Spencer Weiner / Los Angeles
Times
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lan...susie-pena.html
08-03-2009 05:46 PM
liberranter Sure, the Baby is Dead — But the Cops are Free, so Let’s Party!
Super Moderator
http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lew...ves/031765.html
Sure, the Baby is Dead — But the Cops are Free, so Let’s Party!
Posted by William Grigg on August 3, 2009 10:14 PM
Four years ago, nineteen-month-old Suzie Pena was shot to

death by Los Angeles SWAT commandos during a 2 1/2-hour
standoff with her father, Jose Raul Pena. After suffering a
narcotics-related breakdown, Mr. Pena took his daughters
Registered: Jun 2005 hostage, barricaded himself in the office of his used-car
Location: Tucson, AZ dealership, and began a gun battle with the police.
Posts: 5865
At one point, Pena was holding a gun in one hand while using
Suzie as a “human shield.” In his derangement he seems to
have assumed that putting an infant in the line of fire would
deter paramilitary police from shooting at him. He was wrong:
The child was shot in the head and died, even as her anguished
mother, Lorena Lopez, pleaded with the police to be careful and
not to shoot the innocent baby.
Lopez filed a wrongful death lawsuit contending that the SWAT

team should have used different tactics; that was the same
conclusion, incidentally, reached by a panel appointed by Los

Angeles Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa and Police Chief William

Bratton.
But under the evolving doctrine of police impunity, it is not the

privilege of mere mundanes to question the tactical decisions of
their betters in blue. Accordingly, earlier today (Monday, August
3), Superior Court Judge Rolf M. Treu “took the case away from
jurors as they were scheduled to begin hearing final
arguments,” reported the New York Times. “Based on trial
testimony, there was no way the panelists could have concluded
that police officers acted unreasonably, Treu ruled.”
Of course, that’s for the jurors to decide, in any constitutional

jurisdiction this side of North Korea.
Judge Treu — who really should be locked in a room with

Lorena Lopez and about a half-dozen of her male relatives —
committed an act of judicial nullification (aborting the possibility
of a jury verdict) most likely out of the fear that the jury would
quite sensibly conclude that it is inexcusable for SWAT
marksmen to shoot an infant hostage in the forehead.
As is so frequently the case, injustice was compounded with

insult as City Attorney Carmen Trutanich — who should visit
that same locked room after Lopez and her relatives are
finished with Treu — high-fived a colleague “after learning of
the judge’s decision,” reported the New York Times.
Reports the Los Angeles Times:
“City Atty. Carmen Trutanich, who was being interviewed by

The Times when a deputy city attorney came into his office
announce the news, jumped from his chair with a cheer and
high-fived the lawyer. Millions of city dollars had been in
jeopardy, he said.”
In making that claim, Trutanich, who is strenuously resisting an

audit of his corruption-riddled office, displayed unwonted
concern over needless public expenditures. Trutanich, a
shameless camera whore, also claimed that the lawsuit was a
waste of time; he has more important things to do, such as
trying to wring a publicity-rich criminal prosecution out of
Michael Jackson’s untimely death.
(Thanks to Scott Horton for bringing this outrage to my

attention.)
__________________
Thomas Jefferson


Grigg
08-04-2009 02:41 AM
Navigatr1 quote:
Extended Sabatical
Judge Rolf M. Treu

Location:
Posts: 31403 Note: This address isn't confirmed and was found via public records.
Rolf M Treu
2755 Turnbull Canyon Rd
Hacienda Heights, CA 91745-5137
Household: Scarlet L Treu, Liselotte Treu
Listing date: Apr. 2009
Attachment: rolf m treu map 1.jpg

__________________
guys are."

their people."
13, 1787

08-04-2009 09:58 AM
Navigatr1 http://maps.google.com/maps?oe=utf-...8,0.013797&z=16
Extended Sabatical
2755 Turnbull Canyon Rd
Hacienda Heights, CA 91745-5137
Registered: Jul 2003 Attachment: rolf m treu map 2.jpg

Location:
Posts: 31403 This has been downloaded 19 time(s).
__________________
guys are."

their people."
13, 1787
08-04-2009 10:02 AM
Navigatr1 http://maps.google.com/maps?oe=utf-...003449&t=h&z=18
Extended Sabatical
Attachment: rolf m treu sat 1.jpg


Location: __________________
Posts: 31403 I am not a Lawyer. My opinions are my own, and not necessarily those of the
guys are."

their people."
13, 1787

08-04-2009 10:06 AM

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COPWATCH.com Forum - Pa. judges accused of REPEATEDLY jailing kids for cash
COPWATCH.com Forum > NEWS SECTION > News: PERVERTED JUSTICE > Pa.
judges accused of REPEATEDLY jailing kids for cash
Author Thread
huckabuck001 Pa. judges accused of REPEATEDLY jailing kids for cash

Senior Member
WILKES-BARRE, Pa. – For years, the juvenile court system in

Registered: Feb 2007 Wilkes-Barre operated like a conveyor belt: Youngsters were
Location: Florida
Posts: 577 brought before judges without a lawyer, given hearings that lasted
only a minute or two, and then sent off to juvenile prison for
months for minor offenses.
The explanation, prosecutors say, was corruption on the bench.
In one of the most shocking cases of courtroom graft on record,

two Pennsylvania judges have been charged with taking millions of
dollars in kickbacks to send teenagers to two privately run youth
detention centers.
"I've never encountered, and I don't think that we will in our

lifetimes, a case where literally thousands of kids' lives were just

tossed aside in order for a couple of judges to make some money,"
said Marsha Levick, an attorney with the Philadelphia-based
Juvenile Law Center, which is representing hundreds of youths
sentenced in Wilkes-Barre.
Prosecutors say Luzerne County Judges Mark Ciavarella and Michael

Conahan took $2.6 million in payoffs to put juvenile offenders in
lockups run by PA Child Care LLC and a sister company, Western PA
Child Care LLC. The judges were charged on Jan. 26 and removed
from the bench by the Pennsylvania Supreme Court shortly
afterward.
No company officials have been charged, but the investigation is

still going on.
The high court, meanwhile, is looking into whether hundreds or

even thousands of sentences should be overturned and the
juveniles' records expunged.
Among the offenders were teenagers who were locked up for

months for stealing loose change from cars, writing a prank note
and possessing drug paraphernalia. Many had never been in trouble
before. Some were imprisoned even after probation officers
recommended against it.
Many appeared without lawyers, despite the U.S. Supreme Court's

landmark 1967 ruling that children have a constitutional right to
counsel.
The judges are scheduled to plead guilty to fraud Thursday in

federal court. Their plea agreements call for sentences of more than
seven years behind bars.
Ciavarella, 58, who presided over Luzerne County's juvenile court

for 12 years, acknowledged last week in a letter to his former
colleagues, "I have disgraced my judgeship. My actions have
destroyed everything I worked to accomplish and I have only
myself to blame." Ciavarella, though, has denied he got kickbacks
for sending youths to prison.
Conahan, 56, has remained silent about the case.
Many Pennsylvania counties contract with privately run juvenile

detention centers, paying them either a fixed overall fee or a
certain amount per youth, per day.
In Luzerne County, prosecutors say, Conahan shut down the county-

run juvenile prison in 2002 and helped the two companies secure
rich contracts worth tens of millions of dollars, at least some of that
dependent on how many juveniles were locked up.
One of the contracts — a 20-year agreement with PA Child Care

worth an estimated $58 million — was later canceled by the county

as exorbitant.
The judges are accused of taking payoffs between 2003 and 2006.
Robert J. Powell co-owned PA Child Care and Western PA Child Care

until June. His attorney, Mark Sheppard, said his client was the
victim of an extortion scheme.
"Bob Powell never solicited a nickel from these judges and really
was a victim of their demands," he said. "These judges made it very
plain to Mr. Powell that he was going to be required to pay certain
monies."
For years, youth advocacy groups complained that Ciavarella was

ridiculously harsh and ran roughshod over youngsters'
constitutional rights. Ciavarella sent a quarter of his juvenile
defendants to detention centers from 2002 to 2006, compared with
a statewide rate of one in 10.
The criminal charges confirmed the advocacy groups' worst

suspicions and have called into question all the sentences he
pronounced.
Hillary Transue did not have an attorney, nor was she told of her
right to one, when she appeared in Ciavarella's courtroom in 2007
for building a MySpace page that lampooned her assistant principal.
Her mother, Laurene Transue, worked for 16 years in the child

services department of another county and said she was certain
Hillary would get a slap on the wrist. Instead, Ciavarella sentenced
her to three months; she got out after a month, with help from a
lawyer.
"I felt so disgraced for a while, like, what do people think of me

now?" said Hillary, now 17 and a high school senior who plans to
become an English teacher.
Laurene Transue said Ciavarella "was playing God. And not only
was he doing that, he was getting money for it. He was betraying
the trust put in him to do what is best for children."
Kurt Kruger, now 22, had never been in trouble with the law until
the day police accused him of acting as a lookout while his friend
shoplifted less than $200 worth of DVDs from Wal-Mart. He said he
didn't know his friend was going to steal anything.
Kruger pleaded guilty before Ciavarella and spent three days in a

company-run juvenile detention center, plus four months at a youth
wilderness camp run by a different operator.
"Never in a million years did I think that I would actually get sent
away. I was completely destroyed," said Kruger, who later dropped
out of school. He said he wants to get his record expunged, earn his
high school equivalency diploma and go to college.

"I got a raw deal, and yeah, it's not fair," he said, "but now it's 100
times bigger than me."
02-11-2009 06:50 PM
Night Raven 2 Pa. judges plead guilty in kickback scheme

Senior Member
http://www.charter.net/news/read.ph...USNWC34L1_UNEWS
Note: Access link above for a photograph of Judgescum
Conohan
2 Pa. judges plead guilty in kickback scheme

Thursday, February 12, 2009 3:37 PM EST
The Associated Press
Registered: May 2008 By MICHAEL RUBINKAM Associated Press Writer
Location:
Posts: 4804
SCRANTON, Pa. (AP) — Two Pennsylvania judges charged
with taking millions of dollars in kickbacks to send youth
offenders to privately run detention centers pleaded guilty to
fraud Thursday in one of the most stunning cases of judicial
corruption on record.
Prosecutors allege Luzerne County Judges Mark Ciavarella

and Michael Conahan took $2.6 million in payoffs to put
juvenile offenders in lockups run by PA Child Care LLC and a
sister company, possibly tainting the convictions of
thousands of juvenile offenders.
The judges pleaded guilty in federal court in Scranton to

honest services fraud and tax fraud. Their plea agreements
call for sentences of more than seven years in prison. They
were permitted to remain free pending sentencing.
The gray-haired jurists said little at Thursday's hearing, and

declined to comment to reporters afterward.
Prosecutors described a scheme in which Conahan, the

former president judge of Luzerne County, shut down the
county-owned juvenile detention center in 2002 and signed
an agreement with PA Child Care LLC to send youth
offenders to its new facility outside Wilkes-Barre.
Ciavarella, who presided over juvenile court, sent youths to

the detention center while he was taking payments,
prosecutors said.
For years, youth advocacy groups complained that Ciavarella was

ridiculously harsh and ran roughshod over youngsters'
constitutional rights. Ciavarella sent a quarter of his juvenile
defendants to detention centers from 2002 to 2006, compared with

a statewide rate of one in 10.
Among the offenders were teenagers who were locked up for

months for stealing loose change from cars, writing a prank note
and possessing drug paraphernalia. Many had never been in trouble
before, and some were imprisoned even after probation officers
recommended against it. Many of the youths didn't have attorneys.
Ciavarella has specifically denied sending kids to jail for cash, and
had indicated he would not go through with the guilty plea if the
government offered that as evidence.
Thus prosecutors left out any mention Thursday of a quid pro quo,
presenting only enough evidence to establish that crimes had
occurred.
But Assistant U.S. Attorney Gordon Zubron said after the hearing
that the government continues to allege a quid pro quo. "We're not
negotiating that, no. We're not backing off," he said.
The prosecutor said it will be up to U.S. District Judge Edwin Kosik

to settle the matter. Kosik could reject the proposed sentence as
too light if he decides there was a quid pro quo.
"I think there will be significant disagreements as to what the facts

are," Zubrod said. "Was there a connection between the payments
and the money, and young people going to prison? Those are issues
that are going to be addressed later by the court. There's going to
be plenty of time to fight about that."
The judges were charged on Jan. 26 and removed from the bench
by the Pennsylvania Supreme Court shortly afterward.
__________________

--Tom Robbins
02-12-2009 06:38 PM

Night Raven 2 Pa. judges sued in kickback scheme

Senior Member
http://www.charter.net/news/read.ph...USNWC34L1_UNEWS
Note: Access original story link above for photographs of the

judgescum
2 Pa. judges sued in kickback scheme

Registered: May 2008 Friday, February 13, 2009 8:33 AM EST
Location: The Associated Press
Posts: 4804 By MICHAEL RUBINKAM Associated Press Writer
ALLENTOWN, Pa. (AP) — A lawsuit has been filed against two

Pennsylvania judges accused of taking more than $2 million in
kickbacks to send youth offenders to privately run detention centers.
The suit names Luzerne County Judges Mark Ciavarella and

Michael Conahan and 14 other defendants. It was filed in
federal court late Thursday on behalf of hundreds of children and
their families who were alleged victims of the corruption.
"At the hands of two grossly corrupt judges and several

conspirators, hundreds of Pennsylvania children, their families and
loved ones, were victimized and their civil rights violated," plaintiffs'
attorney Michael Cefalo said in a statement Friday.
Prosecutors allege Ciavarella and Conahan took $2.6 million

in payoffs to put juvenile offenders in lockups run by PA
Child Care LLC and a sister company, possibly tainting the
convictions of thousands of juvenile offenders.
The judges pleaded guilty to fraud in federal court in Scranton on

Thursday. Their plea agreements call for sentences of more than
seven years in prison.
"It's our intent to make sure that the system rights this terrible
injustice and holds those responsible accountable," Cefalo said.
An attorney for Conahan said he hadn't seen the suit and declined
comment. Ciavarella's lawyer didn't immediately return a phone
message.
The lead plaintiff is Florence Wallace, whose 14-year-old daughter

Bernadine was charged with terroristic threats after getting into an
argument on MySpace. The lawsuit said the teenager was not
advised of her right to an attorney and was pressured to plead
guilty. She was taken from Ciavarella's courtroom in shackles and
spent time in PA Child Care and at a youth wilderness camp.
As a result of the judges' corruption, parents were forced to pay for

the "wrongful incarceration" of their children, the suit said. Some
parents had their wages garnished, public assistance benefits taken

and social security benefits seized.
In addition to the judges, the plaintiffs are suing two

individuals who allegedly paid the kickbacks: attorney
Robert Powell, who co-owned PA Child Care LLC and Western
PA Child Care LLC until last June; and Robert Mericle, who
owns one of the largest commercial construction firms in
northeastern Pennsylvania and built the detention centers.
Through an attorney, Powell has said he was the victim of extortion.

A spokesman for Mericle has denied making payments "to influence
a decision to secure a contract to build any PA Child Care facility."
Mericle's company was also named as a defendant.
The lawsuit is the first of what is expected to be several lawsuits

seeking class-action status in the case.
__________________

--Tom Robbins
02-13-2009 01:47 PM
Night Raven Addendum

Senior Member
Records key to cases against two corrupt judges may get destroyed
Share on Facebook By Agence France-Presse
Published: July 28, 2009

Registered: May 2008 Updated 10 hours ago
Location:
Posts: 4804
Lawyers who argue that thousands of juveniles were sentenced to

prison terms by corrupt judges are petitioning a US federal court in

Pennsylvania to preserve the case record so they can sue for

damages.
Attorneys are seeking to stop the destruction of files related to the

cases of an unknown number of juveniles who received prison
sentences for minor offenses from two judges who were later found
to have accepted bribes from private prison companies.
The petition before a federal judge in Scranton, Pennsylvania came

after the state’s Supreme Court in March agreed to expunge the
youths’ criminal records, but also ordered the destruction of their
files.
Without at least one copy of the relevant files, attorney Lourdes

Rosado told AFP, the juveniles will be unable to pursue a civil case
seeking damages.
“The federal court needs that information in order to decide

whether or not that claim is valuable and whether or not the
children are entitled to relief,” said Rosado, associate director of the
Juvenile Law Center, a non-profit group which advocates for
children’s rights.
After months of procedural battles, the state Supreme Court agreed

last week to preserve under seal a copy of documents related to
400 juveniles who have so far been identified as victims and have
filed lawsuits.
But, according to Rosado, the total number of victims “could be up

to 6,500″ and attorneys are now calling for a class action lawsuit to
be certified for all the children who appeared before the judges
between 2003 and 2008.
Judges Mark Ciavarella and Michael Conahan of Luzerne County,

Pennsylvania admitted last February to having accepted 2.6 million
dollars from private prisons in exchange for giving juveniles
sentences that were disproportionate to their offenses.
Ciavarella and Conahan have filed a petition seeking the dismissal

of lawsuits seeking damages, citing “the doctrine of judicial
immunity.”
Among those sentenced by the judges was a young man who

received nine months for having stolen a jar of nutmeg worth four
dollars, and another juvenile who was sentenced to three months
for stealing some change from a car.
http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/07...corrupt-judges/
__________________


--Tom Robbins
07-29-2009 10:09 AM

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COPWATCH.com Forum - perverted-justice.com: police sued in NBC stings
COPWATCH.com Forum > NEWS SECTION > News: PERVERTED JUSTICE >
perverted-justice.com: police sued in NBC stings
Author Thread
AVENGER perverted-justice.com
Senior Member
The link in the Subject line, http://www.perverted-justice.com is to the

site for the group seen on Dateline NBC. I have a story about these people.
First, how I met them online. No, I am not a pervert, nor do I participate
in anything that could be considered perversion (except with my hot wife),
I molest her as often as possible. =) I met the "PeeJ" people by accident
and long before I or anyone else I knew had heard of them. While in a
Registered: Feb 2007 chat room, a young kid appeared and began spouting sexual innuendo. So
Location: This is hell.
Posts: 679
I PMed them and informed them what a bad idea that was. Then, being
the paternal type goober that I am, I sought to help the kid out by talking
to them about whatever their real problems were--uncaring parents
(obviously, since they were online unsupervised), school issues, whatever.
After about an hour and forty-five minutes of continual sexual

commentary, they finally realized that I wasn't going to go there and
admitted to me that they were not children and explained what they were
doing. Do you know what my first reaction to that was? I was a bit pissed

off that these people had taken advantage of my kindness and wasted my
time. And what's worse--this happened more than once.
Eventually they invited me to check out their site. I went there and found
a chat area. In this chat area, they behaved like some of the most
perverted people I have ever seen online anywhere. It was actually
disturbing to watch. Just some background for you.
Now to the point. Since that time, I have watched them closely online and
now on TV. While I see nothing wrong with them doing what they do to
the potential predators of society (they even call them "wannabe
molesters," since they were caught before they could become actual
molesters--as far as we know), I want to point out the pointlessness of
the whole thing. On Dateline, once caught, they repeatedly ask these
pervs if they have done this before, etcetera. Of course, most say they
have not. The reality is that they have, which is why they continue to do
this even after being caught and with knowledge of the ongoing stings set
up by police and others. Why would they do this? Because it works. For
every so-called molester these people nail, there are hundreds or
thousands of vulnerable, yet sexually active children out there, just
waiting to "hook up" with some ass who can buy them beer and the like.
Why is this important? Because this society would do far better to help
these children and address the real problem than it does by locking up
thousands of desperate losers. In my opinion, most of these people pose
no threat to any reasonable person and have no victims available to them
in the first place if there aren't thousands of uneducated children online
unsupervised.
I'm not saying that the people at PeeJ should stop what they're doing. All
I am saying is that we should address the much larger problem of sexually
active children who have no clue about what they are doing.
Every time I see an article about protecting the children online, two things
occur to me. First, that is the responsibility of their jackass parents.
Second, I feel that I need to be protected from the children more than
they need to be protected. The 'Net is full of little script kiddies and the
like who come online and run their mouths simply to annoy the crap out of
anyone they can. I often wonder what would happen if I showed up at
their door and informed them why I was there--before "confiscating" their
damn computers, for their own safety, of course.
Anyway, just remember that for every jerk you see on Dateline, there are
hundreds or thousands of children out there who have and will participate
in sexual activities with these scumbags. If you choose not to believe that,
you need a wake up call. I'm sure that you remember when we were
younger, the girls our own age always dated some loser who was 10 years
their senior because it made them feel more mature. What a joke. My own
"mature" sister did this. She ended up pregnant at 15 by a guy who was
26 years old. This is a lot more common than people are comfortable
admitting. That's a far bigger problem than a bunch of hard up lowlifes
who are such cowards that they pose no threat except to the dumbest,
weakest segment of the population, who shouldn't be online unsupervised
in the first place.
I'm not advocating legislation of morality. I am advocating that parents be

held responsible for the actions and/or victimization of their own children.

Because if I have to go smash some little punk's computer with a sledge

hammer for harassing me online, I guarantee that these parents will get
the picture.
__________________
"...for I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every
form of tyranny over the mind of man."
Thomas Jefferson
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
Edmund Burke
"Better that ten guilty men go free than one innocent man be convicted."
05-18-2007 05:23 PM
Mack I was sitting on the patio of a coffee shop the other day, reading a book.
Assistant Moderator Two 12/13/14 yo girls (Lolita's stage of development) came and sat 20
feet away. One of them, wearing jogging shorts, sat facing me. She began
to engage in various stretches as she sat in her chair- lifting one leg over
her head, behind her neck, etc. She kept looking over to see if I was
paying attention. Her shorts were very loose, and her hairless cooch was
halfway displayed. Of course I averted my eyes immediately and said a
prayer for her eternal soul. She continued in this vein for about 15
minutes- standing up, doing lunges, touching her toes, etc. All the while
Registered: Jul 2003 gauging whether I was watching. Which I was, but only for research
Location: purposes.
Posts: 5215
It all seemed a little beyond the more common context of a girl
experimenting with the capabilities of her newly-gained feminine charms.
This overt exhibitionism was more extreme and almost bizarre,
particularly given that I wouldn't expect to be in her preferred age-range.
Made me wonder what her story was, and whether she'll ever meet Chris
Hansen.
Or whether Chris Hansen was lurking around the corner.
__________________
Justice Sanders, defending the right to forcibly resist false arrest, State v. Valentine,
[<LINK] 935 P.2d 1294 (writing in dissent). WA Supreme Court, 1997.

05-18-2007 08:32 PM

AVENGER I'm glad to see that some people understand what I'm talking about on
Senior Member this subject. I'm sure that most people just want to believe that I'm some
undersexed, bible-thumping, old-fashioned prude. The reality is that I am
as open-minded as anyone and I'm sure that my libido is above the
average as well. I'm male, so I have experience too since society doesn't
frown on that. The thing is, if I hadn't wasted so much time hanging out
with the wrong women, I might have met the right one a lot sooner. And
that is exactly why I don't understand the total lack of self-control
displayed in society today. If you give in to every urge, you will pay a
Registered: Feb 2007 price eventually. Whether it is low self-esteem, obesity, or whatever other
Location: This is hell. result, nobody rides for free. Worst of all is the fact that parents and
Posts: 679
society as a whole tolerate or even encourage things which are obviously
destructive. But I know why they have such a preoccupation with such
base wants. It's as simple as quantity over quality. Since they can't have
good food or good sex, they'll just have more of each. It's just a shame to
me that so many girls and women see no more value to themselves than
what lies between their legs--especially when women determine their own
worth in a society which doesn't allow rape and domination. I'm far more
interested in what lies between their ears and any man who is worth their
time and interest will agree. If a man only sees their boobs, he's obviously
not very evolved, mature, or whatever else you want to call it.
For the ladies: you can't change a man, especially where there is no
motivation for change. Exactly how long do you think that men could get
away with demeaning and using women if they were denied the prize? All
of the money and power in the world is useless to us when we sleep
alone. We only want money and power to get more sex. Trust me. Learn
it, live it and pass it on. Great. You're sexy. Just like 50% of the
population is to the other 50%. Girls Gone Stupid are a dime a dozen and
only inferior men are attracted to inferior women.
__________________
Thomas Jefferson
Edmund Burke
06-01-2007 09:32 PM

Mack quote:
Assistant Moderator
Originally posted by AVENGER
I If you give in to every urge, you will pay a price
eventually.
I agree. Well said.

Location:
Posts: 5215
__________________

06-01-2007 10:07 PM
Matt1 quote:
Senior Member
Registered: Feb 2004 I She continued in this vein for about 15 minutes- standing
Location: up, doing lunges, touching her toes, etc. All the while gauging
Posts: 1818 whether I was watching. Which I was, but only for
research purposes.
06-15-2007 07:19 AM

Navigatr1 Murphy City Manager Quits, Gets $255K Severance

Extended Sabatical
Jun 14, 2007 1:19 pm US/Central

Murphy City Manager Quits, Gets $255K Severance
Official Who OK'D Sex Sting To Resign
Registered: Jul 2003 http://cbs11tv.com/local/local_story_165122330.html
Location:
Posts: 31403
(CBS 11 News) The Murphy City Council emerged from a closed door
executive session about 1 a.m. Thursday and announced City Manager
Craig Sherwood would resign.
Sherwood authorized the city's participation in an internet sex sting

operation with an organization called Perverted Justice and Dateline NBC.
The sting conducted last year lured men seeking sex with children to a
house in Murphy.
Many residents were upset officials allowed the undercover operation to

occur in their community.
Although 23 people were arrested, the Collin County district attorney said
he won't prosecute those cases because they don't meet his evidentiary
standards. The people could still face federal charges.
But Police Chief Billy Myrick is talking with the US Attorney's Office about
prosecuting the cases in federal court.
"The new council, as well as the mayor were very much against the sting.
I think that has everything to do with that situation not with the past
three years," said Michelle Long, a former Murphy City Council member.
"I don't think it's fair to judge a person on one situation. (You should) look
at the overall production and stability they brought to the city."
Sherwood called the spilt amicable.
He will leave with a $255,000 severance package and insurance benefits

for a year or until he finds another job.
City records indicate Sherwood's salary was $121,000 per year and
included a $700 a month car allowance.
In a city news release, Sherwood thanked Murphy residents and the three
versions of City Council he has worked with during the past five years.
"I want to make it clear that it was my decision to bring this forward to
the Mayor and City Council and ask them to consider this at this time. I
am very grateful for the three City Councils that I have worked for during
my five years in Murphy. The City has a very dedicated and hard working
staff and I feel the City will benefit with a new leader that can hopefully
unite the City and take it to the next level," Sherwood said in the
prepared statement.
In that same release, the city statement was:
"We are deeply grateful for his hard work and service. He has benefited
the City in many ways. Mr. Sherwood has agreed to help the City through
this transition process. We feel that this action is best for Mr. Sherwood

and the City. We hope the citizens of Murphy will come together, support
us in this decision, and help us move forward as a community.”
In addition to the contract buyout, Sherwood be able to work as a

consultant at $75 per hour, up to another $25,000 total for the year.
His last day will be July 5.
__________________
I am not a Lawyer. My opinions are my own, and not necessarily those of the owners of
this board. Articles posted on this board by me, or other members, are merely a
collection of publicly published articles on the internet that are conveniently posted in one
place. The purpose of the articles is accountability for too often law enforcement officers
just get a slap on the wrist. The use of these articles is for non-profit use, as well as
educational and historical purposes.
Paraphrasing Maureen Kanka: "You got to be able to tell the children who the bad guys
are."

"People shouldn't be afraid of their government, governments should be afraid of their
people."
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and
tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson, letter to to William Smith; Paris, November 13, 1787
06-15-2007 03:39 PM
SHERIFF Re: http://www.perverted-justice.com/

Member
quote:
Location:
Originally posted by AVENGER
Posts: 37
In this chat area, they behaved like some of the most
perverted people I have ever seen online anywhere. It was
actually disturbing to watch.
And this surprises who?
06-19-2007 11:27 AM

GC Marciano Texas Town Roiled by NBC Sting

Copwatcher Extraordinaire Jun 28 01:57 PM US/Eastern
By GRANT SLATER
Associated Press Writer
http://www.breitbart.com/article.ph...icle=1&catnum=0
MURPHY, Texas (AP) - A sting in which police teamed up with

"Dateline NBC" to catch online pedophiles was supposed to send a
Registered: Jul 2003 flinty-eyed, Texas-style warning about this Dallas suburb: Don't mess
Location: Chicago, Illinois with Murphy.
Posts: 9967
Instead, it has turned into a fiasco.
One of the 25 men caught in the sting—a prosecutor from a

neighboring county—committed suicide when police came to arrest
him. The Murphy city manager who approved the operation lost his
job in the ensuing furor.
And the district attorney is refusing to prosecute any of the men,

saying many of the cases were tainted by the involvement of
amateurs.
"Certainly these people should be prosecuted to the full extent of the

law, but the fact that this was all done for television cameras raises
some questions," said Mayor Bret Baldwin.
It is the first time in nine "Dateline NBC: To Catch a Predator" stings

across the country in the past year and a half that prosecutors did not
pursue charges.
"Dateline" has made prime-time entertainment out of contacting

would- be child molesters over the Internet, luring them to a meeting
place, and videotaping their humiliating confrontations with reporter
Chris Hansen.
"Dateline" works with an activist group called Perverted Justice, which

supplies adults who troll Internet chat rooms, posing as underage
boys and girls, and try to collect incriminating sex talk.
City manager Craig Sherwood approved such an operation in this well-

to-do community of 11,000 after being approached by "Dateline" and
Perverted Justice, but he never informed the mayor or the City
Council. He said secrecy was necessary for the sting to be effective.
Over four days in November, 24 men were arrested at a two-story

home in one of Murphy's newer neighborhoods after allegedly
arranging to meet boys or girls there.
Some other suspects contacted Perverted Justice decoys online but

never showed up at the house. Among them was Louis Conradt Jr., an
assistant prosecutor from neighboring Kauffman County, who
allegedly engaged in a sexually explicit online chat with an adult
posing as a 13-year-old boy.
As police knocked at his door and a "Dateline" camera crew waited in

the street, Conradt shot himself.

His sister, Patricia Conradt, told the City Council that police acted as
"a judge, jury and executioner that was encouraged by an out-of-
control reality show."
Then, last month, Collin County District Attorney John Roach dropped
all charges. He said that in 16 of the cases, he had no jurisdiction,
since neither the suspects nor the decoys were in the county during
the online chats.
As for the rest of the cases, he said neither police nor NBC could
guarantee the chat logs were authentic and complete.
"The fact that somebody besides police officers were involved is what
makes this case bad," said Roach, who was informed of the sting in
advance but did not participate. "If professionals had been running the
show, they would have done a much better job rather than being at
the beck and call of outsiders."
As details of the suicide emerged, Murphy's mayor, City Council and

most of its residents learned for the first time that potential molesters
were being luring to their city. Many were furious.
"They can chase predators all they want, but they shouldn't do it in a
populated area with children, two blocks from an elementary school,"
said Lisa Watson, 33, who lives down the road from the sting house
and has three children and another on the way.
Bryan Whorton, who lives with his wife and baby across the street
from the house, said his neighborhood was put in danger. Cars sped
up and down the street and police sprinted from hiding spots, guns
drawn, to arrest suspects, he said. One suspect dropped a bag of
crack, Whorton said.
"This is a family community. It didn't look kosher at all," he said.
Two weeks ago, the City Council voted to buy out the city manager's
contract for $255,000.
NBC's Hansen said Murphy is the only place the show has encountered
such resistance.
"I don't want to get involved in the DA's business or the police
business," he said. "I can tell you in the other locations, these issues
did not come up."
Eric Nichols, a Texas deputy attorney general, said that when law
enforcement authorities pull an Internet sex sting, officers posing as
decoys follow strict rules. Detailed chat logs are kept to ensure that
"sex talk" is initiated by the potential predator. That way, a defendant
cannot claim entrapment.
Eric Chase, a defense attorney specializing in sex crimes, said stings

are the job of police, not TV crews. "Police should not be abdicating a
very important function to either private organizations or
entertainment organizations," he said.
__________________

"The purpose and the principal effect of posting information about bad cops on the
Internet is to inform the public for its own safety, not to humiliate the officer. Even if
the collateral effect of the Internet posting is to shame the officer, this effect is the
result of the Officer's crimes. We agree with the state that the right to be free from
the shame, stigma and embarrassment resulting from crimes committed by Sworn
Officers of the Law is not the kind of fundamental right contemplated by our
constitution." - Illinois Supreme Court
All statements and opinions expressed are my personal opinions and are not to be
viewed as fact. I am not a speaking agent for Copwatch and have no authority to
bind Copwatch or to act on its behalf. My opinions, ideas, theories and beliefs are my
own and are not necessarily supported, condoned (or often even appreciated) by
Copwatch, it's subsidiaries or agents.
06-29-2007 03:15 AM
AVENGER Re: Re: http://www.perverted-justice.com/

Senior Member
quote:
Originally posted by SHERIFF

And this surprises who?

Posts: 679 It always surprises me that people can be so unashamedly duplicitous. It
also surprises me that so many people are apparently developmentally
frozen at the age of twelve. There is more to life than cheap sex and
cheap cheeseburgers, kids!
__________________
Thomas Jefferson
Edmund Burke
07-07-2007 11:08 AM

AVENGER First of all, I never claimed to be sane. In fact, by the literal definition of
Senior Member sanity, which is whatever the majority believes to be sanity at any given
time, I am quite insane and proud of it.
You missed my point completely. My point was that these children are not
naive and innocent. They do need to be protected. But more from
themselves, their own stupidity and their irresponsible parents than they
do from these so-called molesters who don't even have the balls to take
on the pencil-necked Dateline reporter. And yes, since you ask, if YOUR
Registered: Feb 2007 child is molested through the Internet, which YOU provided, and YOU have
Location: This is hell. no idea about it, then YOU are a bad parent. It's about time that people
Posts: 679 stand the f**k up and take some personal responsibility instead of
constantly trying to blame others, which is how this society got so fu**ed
up in the first place.
I never said that these losers didn't need and deserve to be prosecuted. If
nothing else, they need to be stomped into bits until they learn how to be
men--something that this society no longer teaches. Don't put words into
my mouth and turn this into another piece of circular illogic provided by so
many idiots online who lack basic comprehension skills. You do that and
I'll just have to assume that you're a stupid cop and ignore you
completely.
__________________
Thomas Jefferson
Edmund Burke
07-11-2007 10:08 PM
Rylan 2.0 Check out the lawsuit:

Senior Member
http://www.courthousenews.com/BartelNBC.pdf
Location:
Posts: 2330
__________________
http://www.ronpaul2008.com
07-11-2007 10:28 PM

Mack quote:
Assistant Moderator
Originally posted by nicole1970
A child is ONLY CAPABLE of being a child, regardless of

the childs desire to be grown,cool, or accepted by any
adult who wishes to cause the child harm.

Location: I agree with your entire post, but on the other hand I don't think anyone
Posts: 5215 here is advocating the molestation of children.
__________________

07-12-2007 12:29 AM
AVENGER Thanks for that, Rylan. THREE wrongs don't make a right. And Merry
Senior Member Christmas to the poor lady. Rubber chickens? Freakin' juvenile delinquents
with badges. Exactly what we all need.
Right, Mack. I was only advocating that parents and society address what
I think is a bigger problem--children being left to their own devices
without being given any moral education. The perverts will always be
there, waiting for you to turn your back. And you can bet that if my kid
was molested by some idiot, I'd feel responsible enough to take care of it
Registered: Feb 2007 myself. But I'd also wonder what I'd done or not done to lead my kid to
Location: This is hell. even want to have anything to do with some obvious loser. And
Posts: 679 someone's getting a spanking, to put it nicely.
__________________
Thomas Jefferson
Edmund Burke
07-12-2007 02:45 AM

AVENGER Nicole, I never accused you of anything or threatened you.

Senior Member
"I was not accusing anyone of advocating the molestation a child and I do
apologize if I came across that way.
But I do not apologize for anything said."
It did come across that way. But I think you're confused and you
obviously didn't read or comprehend the gist of my post.
"And as far as Avenger accusing me of potentialy being a cop, he can go

Location: This is hell. to straight to hell."
Posts: 679
Look at my location.
"After all my kids and I have been through since October 14th 2006 I
hardly think some silly childish threat of
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You do that and I'll just have to assume that you're a stupid cop and
ignore you completely.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
is going make me quake with any kind of apprehension or alarm."
Now I'm childish as well, but I'm not supposed to be offended when you
completely disregard the point of my post and essentially attack me as if
I'm defending the scum of the earth?
"So being accused of possibly being a cop because I happen to disagree

w/ someone is preety much bull ****."
You can't disagree with what you didn't bother to read and understand.
"So hey Avenger... **** you right back!

I wont be bullied by a cop ar you."
I never said "**** you" and I am no bully. I am the real thing--not some
punk ass ****-talker, lady.
As far as your husband goes, I'm sorry for your loss. But don't vent it on
me. I am not the enemy. In fact, I just might be your best friend in the
world right now if you give me half a chance, because I have been where
you are my whole life.
I will apologize to you for my comment. It was meant to express my
annoyance at the fact that you apparently missed the entire point of my
post--which was meant to make a difference--but I should have chosen a
better way of saying it.
__________________
Thomas Jefferson
Edmund Burke

07-12-2007 03:05 AM
AVENGER I understand. I am all "psycho" about the system and the barrel of
Senior Member monkeys we call a society myself. It looks to me like you might have a
touch of PTSD (Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder), which would be
completely normal in your situation. I know I sleep with one eye open and
a hand on my pistol. My wife loves that. It's freakin' great.
I thought about it some and I can clarify a bit now.
My main beef about the media and society always pointing the finger is
Registered: Feb 2007 that since I was a teenager, I wondered things about my own "peers"
Location: This is hell. such as, "Where are these kids' parents?" I know that you can't watch
Posts: 679 children 24/7 and that there will always be people who creep in under the
wire. I just have a problem with the parents who think that their children
are little angels, no matter what the evidence is to the contrary. As an
example, there was an outbreak of esophageal gonorrhea here a while
back and one mother had the utter stupidity to call the radio show and
state, "Those weren't our kids. It was some kid from out of state." Well,
obviously their kids played an equal role, since they were the ones being
treated for VD of the throat. Right? That kind of head-in-the-sand thinking
just blows me away. I'm not blaming children, per se, but I think we all
know that a lot of teenagers think they are more mature than they are or
ever will be. I understand your comment about curiosity--I was a semi-
******ed kid once too. But I think there's something very wrong with a
culture that allows or even promotes teen girls basically prostituting
themselves and teen boys calling themselves pimps. If these were my
children, they would receive a major education in self-worth and self-
respect if I caught them posting swimsuit shots on MySpace, for example.
I didn't mean to imply that any parent is to blame when their child is
molested. No matter what you did or didn't do as a parent, it is still the
fault of the entire society and the useless system that we all pay for
protection. I can see that you've had some terrible experiences, to say the
least. I hope things get better for you soon and that you find some justice
and some peace. Feel free to PM me if you ever want to chat about it.
Anyone who loves cops is either sheltered and ignorant, or just plain evil.
I fight regularly with morons who take issue with my "there are no good
cops" mentality. I have begun to see the sheeple as a greater menace to
freedom than the stupid goose-steppers they support. They are all my
enemies.
__________________
Thomas Jefferson
Edmund Burke

07-12-2007 06:10 PM
AVENGER Ramble away. People need to know what the system and its thugs are
Senior Member really all about. As far as my day goes, I woke up dreaming about posting
a ton of video clips on a website so that people can see reality, instead of
the half-truths we all see on the so-called news. Take care. =)
__________________
Thomas Jefferson
Registered: Feb 2007 "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
Posts: 679
Edmund Burke
07-12-2007 09:54 PM
Mack This can't be a coincidence. The cop was targeting you for retribution.
Assistant Moderator
What's his name, and what department is he with?
__________________
Registered: Jul 2003 COPWATCH or by any other Moderators or participants.
Location:
Posts: 5215
07-14-2007 05:14 PM
madintx perverted justice

Junior Member
Owner of Perverted Justice on camera where he was teaching Police about

Registered: Jul 2007 Police work………..
Location:
Posts: 1
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c95_1184868760

http://www.wfaa.com/video/index.html?nvid=160087&shu=1
07-20-2007 11:47 AM
pat8942 Its pretty scary to think than these idiots feel the need to try to
Member incarcerate people for what they might do.
I agree that the real perverts deserve prosecution but isn't that supposed
to be the job of Law Enforcement?
Anyone who thinks that organizations like
Registered: Oct 2006 PeeJ are a good idea should think again.
Location: Deming,NM Guilty or not you could be next.
Posts: 59 Next thing you know they will target wannabe pot smokers,drunk drivers,
tax cheats,atheists,hindus,buddists and anyone else they can harass just
to get their jollies.
Trust me it won't be long till they are sued out of exsistance.
__________________
Law Enforcement Is Only A Tool Of The Rich And Powerful To Maintain The
Status Quo.
(LISA SIMPSON) Bart's Sister
07-20-2007 01:15 PM
Navigatr1 NBC's 'To Catch a Predator' is sued for $105M over man who killed himself
Extended Sabatical
NBC's 'To Catch a Predator' is sued for $105M over man who killed
himself as police arrived
http://www.wmcstations.com/Global/story.asp?S=6831108
Location: July 24, 2007 09:10 AM
Posts: 31403
NEW YORK (AP) - In the "Dateline NBC: To Catch a Predator" show, men
accused of having explicit online chats with people they think are
underage children go to a house to meet them, where TV cameras, host
Chris Hansen and police await.
Louis William Conradt Jr., of Terrell, Texas, a Dallas suburb, was

suspected of being one of those men, except he didn't show up at the
house. That didn't stop the TV producers and police from showing up at
his, though, and as officers knocked on his door and a camera crew
waited in the street, Conradt shot and killed himself.
His sister, Patricia Conradt, sued NBC Universal Inc. in U.S. District Court
in Manhattan on Monday for $105 million, accusing it of taking over police
duties and then failing to protect her brother.
In the lawsuit, Patricia Conradt accused NBC Universal of engaging in a

pattern of racketeering activity by bribing police across the country to let
it film encounters with suspects it lures to a home where it has set up
cameras.

She said in the lawsuit NBC "steam-rolled" police to arrest her brother
after telling police he failed to show up at the rigged house 35 miles away.
She said her brother was unable to defend himself when police, NBC
employees and associates swarmed his yard, creating a relationship
between NBC and her brother similar to the relationship a prison guard
has with an inmate.
"The suicide was reasonably foreseeable," her lawsuit said. "At this time,
the defendant wore the robe of a state official and Bill wore the shackles
of a detainee. Having trespassed and invaded upon Bill's property to
broadcast a spectacle to millions, the defendant took no more steps
toward protecting him than are received by a gladiator or bull."
A spokeswoman for NBC Universal, Jenny Tartikoff, said: "We have not
yet received the lawsuit, but we plan to defend ourselves vigorously as we
believe the claims in the suit to be completely without merit."
NBC and Perverted Justice have filmed similar operations in other cities,
and the network has said the show did not have the same problems
elsewhere.
The lawsuit said Conradt Jr., 57, an assistant county prosecutor, shot
himself after he was accused of engaging in a sexually explicit online chat
with an adult posing as a 13-year-old boy. It said a police officer at the
scene of the shooting told a "Dateline" producer: "That'll make good TV."
In the lawsuit, Patricia Conradt said NBC was "concerned more with its
own profits than with pedophilia."
Conradt Jr. became a target in a program in which NBC and the activist
group Perverted Justice set up shop for four days last November in a two-
story home in Murphy, Texas. Perverted Justice staff posed as boys and
girls online and arranged to meet men there.
Two dozen men were arrested, but the district attorney refused to
prosecute any of them, saying many of the cases were tainted by the
involvement of amateurs and that he lacked jurisdiction in most cases
because neither the suspects nor decoys were in the county during the
online chats. The city manager was fired for approving the arrangement
without telling the mayor or the city council.
__________________
I am not a Lawyer. My opinions are my own, and not necessarily those of the owners of
this board. Articles posted on this board by me, or other members, are merely a
collection of publicly published articles on the internet that are conveniently posted in one
place. The purpose of the articles is accountability for too often law enforcement officers
just get a slap on the wrist. The use of these articles is for non-profit use, as well as
educational and historical purposes.
Paraphrasing Maureen Kanka: "You got to be able to tell the children who the bad guys
are."

"People shouldn't be afraid of their government, governments should be afraid of their
people."
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and
tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson, letter to to William Smith; Paris, November 13, 1787

07-25-2007 11:27 AM

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perverted-justice.com: police sued in NBC stings
Author Thread
Navigatr1 Police in 'Predator' sex stings deny taking bribes

Extended Sabatical
Police in 'Predator' sex stings deny taking bribes
Suit alleges NBC paid several departments, former Murphy official

Registered: Jul 2003 http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcon...lo.32983a1.html
Location:
Posts: 31403 10:38 PM CDT on Sunday, July 29, 2007
By TIARA M. ELLIS / The Dallas Morning News
Police agencies accused in a lawsuit of accepting bribes in exchange

for allowing the Dateline NBC show To Catch a Predator to film
Internet sex stings denied receiving money or services.
The allegations against several police departments across the

country were detailed in a $105 million lawsuit filed last week

against NBC for the suicide of Louis "Bill" Conradt Jr., a former
Kaufman County district attorney who shot himself as police raided
his home. Dateline NBC cameras were waiting outside.
The suit alleges that NBC targeted high-ranking officials and used
bribery, and it describes the sting methods as sensational and for
the purposes of entertainment and profit.
NBC officials have said they plan to defend the show but would not
comment on specifics because of the pending litigation.
Bruce Baron, the attorney who filed the lawsuit on behalf of Mr.
Conradt's sister, Patricia Conradt, would not talk about bribery
amounts or precise ways city officials benefited from NBC. He
pointed out that the lawsuit names specific officers and police chiefs.
"Right now, this is only the beginning. It's the first complaint in this
case," Mr. Baron said. "Whenever there is illicit or a secret
arrangement, it's very, very difficult to pinpoint all the evidence
until you keep poking at it in discovery. There, all of the secret
deals and evidence of them come out."
Murphy was the only Texas city mentioned in the lawsuit and was
the police department that headed the November sting in Terrell,
where Mr. Conradt killed himself.
The lawsuit claimed that NBC also offered bribes to officials in

Greenville, Ohio; Fort Myers and Flagler Beach, Fla.; and Riverside
County, Petaluma, and Long Beach, Calif. In exchange, the lawsuit
contended, officials kept the busts secret from city officials.
Officials in all but Murphy and Fort Myers denied receiving anything
for letting NBC film the busts. Fort Myers Police Chief Hilton Daniels
had no comment because he had not seen the lawsuit. Murphy
Police Chief Bill Myrick could not be reached for comment, and the
city's attorney, Robert Brown, did not return repeated phone calls.
In the lawsuit, Murphy's then-City Manager Craig Sherwood is

named as the person who benefited financially through services or
other means. Mr. Sherwood did not return repeated phone calls.
Mr. Sherwood and Chief Myrick invited Dateline NBC to Murphy last
year, along with Perverted Justice, an Internet watchdog group
whose members act as decoys pretending to be teenage boys and
girls online.
Mr. Sherwood resigned from the city just after the Collin County
district attorney declined to prosecute any of the 23 cases that
resulted from the sex predator stings in Murphy. Prosecutors said
they could not prove a crime occurred in their jurisdiction. In other
cases, complete transcripts of the exchange between Perverted
Justice decoys and suspects were not available, District Attorney
John Roach has said.

The lawsuit said Flagler Beach Police Chief Roger Free questioned
allowing Dateline NBC to document busts because of Mr. Conradt's
death.
"Am I an idiot, after what happened in Texas?" the lawsuit quotes

Chief Free as saying. "We do not need this exposure."
Chief Free said he contacted Perverted Justice and Dateline NBC

and asked them to go to Flagler Beach. He said he had not heard
about Mr. Conradt's death at the time.
"I don't think they even knew where Flagler Beach was until we
contacted them," Chief Free said.
In Long Beach and Riverside County, police officials said their

officers might have talked to NBC officials originally. The police
chief and sheriff, respectively, make the final decision to allow their
busts to be recorded for television.
"It was forwarded to me for my review," said Tom Freeman, the

Riverside County sheriff's chief of media information. "Then I
shared that with the sheriff, and Sheriff Bob Doyle listened to my
recommendations. I felt this is something that would be a benefit to
our community ... in the sense that it would send a strong message
to people viewing the program that Riverside, Calif., is very, very
proactive ... in the pursuit of sex offenders."
In the lawsuit, Riverside County sheriff's Lt. Chad Bianco was

described as skeptical about the manpower needed and perception
of Riverside in the show. The lawsuit suggests that he was swayed
by money and an offer to "help you get away."
In Greenville, Ohio, the lawsuit accused the Darke County Sheriff's

Department of deputizing NBC employees and receiving money.
Darke County sheriff's Chief Deputy Bill Grice said the department
was already planning to use decoys from Perverted Justice and had
been working on an operation with them when NBC asked to join.
County prosecutors recommended that Perverted Justice volunteers

be deputized to help with the cases when they were brought to
court. But no one with NBC was deputized or given any special
treatment, Deputy Grice said.
"We received absolutely nothing from Perverted Justice. We

received absolutely nothing from NBC," Deputy Grice said. "There
were no reimbursements, nothing."
None of the cities have opened investigations into the accusations.
__________________

guys are."

their people."
13, 1787
07-30-2007 08:52 AM
Navigatr1 Police in sex stings deny taking bribes

Extended Sabatical
Police in sex stings deny taking bribes
Suit alleges NBC paid several departments, former Murphy official

Registered: Jul 2003 http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcon...lo.32983a1.html
Location:
Posts: 31403 06:13 AM CDT on Monday, July 30, 2007
By TIARA M. ELLIS / The Dallas Morning News
Police agencies accused in a lawsuit of accepting bribes in exchange

for allowing the Dateline NBC show To Catch a Predator to film
Internet sex stings denied receiving money or services.
The allegations against several police departments across the

country were detailed in a $105 million lawsuit filed last week
against NBC for the suicide of Louis "Bill" Conradt Jr., a former
Kaufman County district attorney who shot himself as police raided
his home. Dateline NBC cameras were waiting outside.
The suit alleges that NBC targeted high-ranking officials and used
bribery, and it describes the sting methods as sensational and for
the purposes of entertainment and profit.
NBC officials have said they plan to defend the show but would not
comment on specifics because of the pending litigation.
Bruce Baron, the attorney who filed the lawsuit on behalf of Mr.
Conradt's sister, Patricia Conradt, would not talk about bribery
amounts or precise ways city officials benefited from NBC. He
pointed out that the lawsuit names specific officers and police chiefs.
"Right now, this is only the beginning. It's the first complaint in this
case," Mr. Baron said. "Whenever there is illicit or a secret
arrangement, it's very, very difficult to pinpoint all the evidence
until you keep poking at it in discovery. There, all of the secret

deals and evidence of them come out."
Murphy was the only Texas city mentioned in the lawsuit and was
the police department that headed the November sting in Terrell,
where Mr. Conradt killed himself.
The lawsuit claimed that NBC also offered bribes to officials in

Greenville, Ohio; Fort Myers and Flagler Beach, Fla.; and Riverside
County, Petaluma, and Long Beach, Calif. In exchange, the lawsuit
contended, officials kept the busts secret from city officials.
Officials in all but Murphy and Fort Myers denied receiving anything
for letting NBC film the busts. Fort Myers Police Chief Hilton Daniels
had no comment because he had not seen the lawsuit. Murphy
Police Chief Bill Myrick could not be reached for comment, and the
city's attorney, Robert Brown, did not return repeated phone calls.
In the lawsuit, Murphy's then-City Manager Craig Sherwood is

named as the person who benefited financially through services or
other means. Mr. Sherwood did not return repeated phone calls.
Mr. Sherwood and Chief Myrick invited Dateline NBC to Murphy last
year, along with Perverted Justice, an Internet watchdog group
whose members act as decoys pretending to be teenage boys and
girls online.
Mr. Sherwood resigned from the city just after the Collin County
district attorney declined to prosecute any of the 23 cases that
resulted from the sex predator stings in Murphy. Prosecutors said
they could not prove a crime occurred in their jurisdiction. In other
cases, complete transcripts of the exchange between Perverted
Justice decoys and suspects were not available, District Attorney
John Roach has said.
The lawsuit said Flagler Beach Police Chief Roger Free questioned
allowing Dateline NBC to document busts because of Mr. Conradt's
death.
"Am I an idiot, after what happened in Texas?" the lawsuit quotes

Chief Free as saying. "We do not need this exposure."
Chief Free said he contacted Perverted Justice and Dateline NBC

and asked them to go to Flagler Beach. He said he had not heard
about Mr. Conradt's death at the time.
"I don't think they even knew where Flagler Beach was until we
contacted them," Chief Free said.
In Long Beach and Riverside County, police officials said their

officers might have talked to NBC officials originally. The police
chief and sheriff, respectively, make the final decision to allow their
busts to be recorded for television.
"It was forwarded to me for my review," said Tom Freeman, the

Riverside County sheriff's chief of media information. "Then I

shared that with the sheriff, and Sheriff Bob Doyle listened to my
recommendations. I felt this is something that would be a benefit to
our community ... in the sense that it would send a strong message
to people viewing the program that Riverside, Calif., is very, very
proactive ... in the pursuit of sex offenders."
In the lawsuit, Riverside County sheriff's Lt. Chad Bianco was

described as skeptical about the manpower needed and perception
of Riverside in the show. The lawsuit suggests that he was swayed
by money and an offer to "help you get away."
In Greenville, Ohio, the lawsuit accused the Darke County Sheriff's

Department of deputizing NBC employees and receiving money.
Darke County sheriff's Chief Deputy Bill Grice said the department
was already planning to use decoys from Perverted Justice and had
been working on an operation with them when NBC asked to join.
County prosecutors recommended that Perverted Justice volunteers

be deputized to help with the cases when they were brought to
court. But no one with NBC was deputized or given any special
treatment, Deputy Grice said.
"We received absolutely nothing from Perverted Justice. We

received absolutely nothing from NBC," Deputy Grice said. "There
were no reimbursements, nothing."
None of the cities have opened investigations into the accusations.
__________________
guys are."

their people."
13, 1787
08-02-2007 10:00 AM

Navigatr1 Deputies linked to bribe lawsuit against NBC

Extended Sabatical
Deputies linked to bribe lawsuit against NBC

http://www.sbsun.com/news/ci_6542350
Registered: Jul 2003 Rod Leveque, Staff Writer

Location: Article Launched: 08/04/2007 12:00:00 AM PDT
Posts: 31403
The Riverside County Sheriff's Department has been hit with
allegations that the NBC television network bribed a lieutenant to
win his cooperation for a televised sex-sting operation.
The claim is part of a lawsuit filed against NBC in a New York

federal court, alleging that the producers of the Dateline NBC
program "To Catch a Predator" routinely bribed law-enforcement
officials in exchange for their help in arranging the stings.
A sheriff's spokeswoman declined to comment on the allegations

Friday. She referred questions to her supervisors, who did not
return calls.
Neither the Sheriff's Department nor Sheriff-Coroner Bob Doyle are

named as a party to the lawsuit.
The stings aired on the show require close cooperation between law
enforcement and the television program.
To pull them off, undercover operatives pose as children in Internet

chat rooms in search of sexual predators, and then invite them to a
home for sex.
When the alleged predators arrive, they are met by television

cameras and a Dateline reporter. Officers then swoop in and arrest
them as they leave the house.
The Riverside County Sheriff's Department participated in such an

operation in January 2006.
In that case, roughly 50 men were arrested at a home in Mira Loma

over a three-day span.
According to the lawsuit, NBC approached sheriff's Lt. Chad Bianco

about setting up a sting in Riverside County.
The claim states Bianco was initially reluctant to participate out of

fear the operation would be "harmful to the community."
The lawsuit alleges Dateline employees suggested the show would

be beneficial to his career. It further alleges the network gave him
money, services or other things of value to win his support.
It gives no other specifics on the alleged bribery.
The lawsuit says Dateline producers struck similar deals with law

enforcement in Long Beach, Petaluma, Florida and Ohio.
The lawsuit was filed in federal court last month by Patricia

Conradt, the sister of a former Texas district attorney who killed
himself after becoming entangled in a "To Catch a Predator"
operation.
The woman is seeking more than $100 million from NBC.
The allegations in the lawsuit are in some ways similar to those

made in another case filed against NBC in May.
In that case, a former Dateline producer accuses the network of

using shady tactics to stage the stings.
Among her allegations, plaintiff Marsha Bartel claims NBC

"unethically pays or indirectly reimburses law-enforcement officials
to participate in the predator stings."
Her lawsuit also alleges the network inappropriately provides law-

enforcement agencies with video equipment used for the arrest and
prosecution of the alleged predators.
Bartel's lawsuit does not accuse the Riverside County Sheriff's

Department, or any any other law-enforcement agency, of
wrongdoing.
NBC News spokeswoman Jenny Tartikoff said Friday that the

network denies the allegations in both lawsuits and plans to fight
the cases vigorously.
Staff writer Rod Leveque can be reached by e-mail at

r_leveque@dailybulletin.com, or by phone at (909) 483-9325.
__________________
guys are."

their people."
13, 1787

08-04-2007 03:00 PM
Maxima I wonder if some of these sting opperations are happening in states

Moderator where both parties are supposed to okay the recording of audio.
Not only is in a felony in a lot of states, they also allow for civil
damages.
__________________

Registered: Mar 2007 may place too implicit a confidence in their public servants, and fail properly to
Location: St. Louis, MO scrutinize their conduct; that in this way they may be made the dupes of
Posts: 360 designing men, and become the instruments of their own undoing. Make them
08-05-2007 06:39 AM
GC Marciano quote:
Originally posted by Maxima
I wonder if some of these sting opperations
are happening in states where both parties
are supposed to okay the recording of audio.
In Illinois it is illegal to record the audio of any interaction

Registered: Jul 2003 unless the consent of both individuals is obtained... unless the
Posts: 9967 recording party has "reasonable suspicion" to believe the
recording will capture evidence of a crime.
It wouldn't surprise me if other states have the same clause.
__________________
Court


agents.
08-05-2007 12:38 PM
Maxima quote:
Moderator
In Illinois it is illegal to record the audio of any
interaction unless the consent of both individuals
is obtained... unless the recording party has
"reasonable suspicion" to believe the recording
will capture evidence of a crime.
It wouldn't surprise me if other states have the

same clause.

Posts: 360
From looking at recording statutes, that is actaully isn't a common
phrase.
Here is the part of the IL statute you are talking about.
quote:
(i) Recording of a conversation made by or at the

request of a person, not a law enforcement officer or
agent of a law enforcement officer, who is a party to
the conversation, under reasonable suspicion that
another party to the conversation is committing, is
about to commit, or has committed a criminal offense
against the person or a member of his or her
immediate household, and there is reason to believe
that evidence of the criminal offense may be obtained
by the recording;
From the writing of the statute, it apprear Chris Hanson would not
be protected from violating this law.
__________________



08-05-2007 08:15 PM
GC Marciano True... especially since there is no actual victim. The decoy is of

Copwatcher Extraordinaire legal age.
__________________
Posts: 9967 Court
agents.
08-06-2007 12:37 AM
Maxima quote:
Moderator
True... especially since there is no actual victim.
The decoy is of legal age.
You never know though. Now a days, the law is enforced to help the
police and it's helpers so it probably couldn't be used to convict
Hanson and his crew.

__________________
Posts: 360

08-06-2007 12:49 AM
GC Marciano ...Unless Hanson and his crew refused to pay the latest bribe.
__________________
Posts: 9967
agents.
08-06-2007 01:52 AM
Navigatr1 To Catch A Predator -- Lights, Camera, Entrapment?

Extended Sabatical
To Catch A Predator -- Lights, Camera, Entrapment?

http://www.tmz.com/2007/08/08/to-ca...era-entrapment/
Registered: Jul 2003 Posted Aug 8th 2007 4:30PM by TMZ Staff
Location: Filed under: Celebrity Justice, TV
Posts: 31403
Blair Berk: Click to watch
http://www.tmz.com/tmz_main_video?titleid=1134010198
A high-powered celebrity lawyer representing a doctor accused of

being a sexual predator went after "Dateline NBC" yesterday in a
California courtroom.
Blair Berk, whose clients include Lindsay Lohan, Mel Gibson and
Halle Berry, is currently representing Dr. Maurice Wolin, a

prominent oncologist. The doctor was taken down by cops last year
as "Dateline" cameras rolled. Prosecutors say Dr. Wolin made plans
to have a sexual encounter with someone on the Internet who he
thought was a 13-year-old girl. In fact, the person who was IMing
Dr. Wolin was self-proclaimed "evil vigilante" Xavier Von Erck,
founder of Perverted Justice.
DadtelineIn yesterday's preliminary hearing in Santa Rosa

California, Berk grilled a cop whose department worked with
Perverted Justice and "Dateline." Berk maintained that Perverted
Justice got money for snagging alleged predators and therefore
entrapped her client to make a buck. She claimed Perverted Justice
illegally recorded conversations with her client and also said the
chat logs could not be authenticated. The logs have not been
admitted into evidence.
Xavier Von Erck: Click to watchThe cop who testified yesterday

called the chat logs "extensive" and "extremely incriminating." In
one exchange, the doctor allegedly asked to come over to her
house, but added, "But you're under 18 and I'm over. We would
have to be soo careful."
NBC rented the house that was used for the doctor's alleged sexual
liaison.
Xavier Von Erck will testify when the prelim resumes next month.
The judge will then decide whether to admit the critical logs into
evidence and then determine if Dr. Wolin will stand trial.
__________________
guys are."

their people."
13, 1787
08-09-2007 10:33 AM

Navigatr1 Here is an organization that fights pervertedjustice.com

Extended Sabatical http://www.corrupted-justice.com/index.html
26 Jul 2007
Registered: Jul 2003 Documents for Hundred Million Dollar Lawsuit Against NBC's
Location: "Dateline" Predator Program Obtained by Corrupted-Justice
Posts: 31403
New York, NY – As recently announced by a number of major news

outlets, the sister of a former Texas district attorney who took his
own life after being targeted by the cyber-vigilante group
"perverted-justice" during one of their sting operations for Dateline
NBC's much-maligned "To Catch A Predator" series has filed a
lawsuit against the entertainment company for a staggering
$100,000,000.00.
As indicated in the original 18-page complaint (accessible below),

the legal firm of Baron Associates P.C. is requesting monetary
damages for their client, Patricia Conradt as administratrix of the
estate of her brother, for 3 separate "causes of action", namely:
1. $30 million for intentional infliction of emotional distress due to

the death of Mr. Conradt as a result of the methods used by
Perverted-Justice and Dateline NBC in their execution of their
populer entertainment program "To Catch A Predator";
2. $30 million for breach of the Civil Rights Act in that NBC deprived
William Conradt of life, liberty or property without due process, and;
3. $35 million for bribery of government officials (police) in violation
of the RICO act
4. Additional court costs and legal expenses
What follows is the original complaint, filed with the United States
District Court, Southern District of New York on 23 July 2007.
Conradt vs NBC Universal Inc. - Original Complaint

http://www.corrupted-justice.com/co...s/complaint.jpg
http://www.corrupted-justice.com/co...mplaint0001.jpg

__________________
guys are."

their people."
13, 1787
08-09-2007 10:52 AM
Navigatr1 'To Catch a Predator': The New American Witch Hunt for Dangerous
Extended Sabatical Pedophiles
'To Catch a Predator': The New American Witch Hunt for

Dangerous Pedophiles
Registered: Jul 2003 http://www.rollingstone.com/news/st...ican_witch_hunt
Location:
Posts: 31403 From Issue 1032
VANESSA GRIGORIADIS
Posted Jul 30, 2007 9:40 AM
No one is home at this house on the Jersey Shore -- no one, that is,
except a very cute and horny fourteen-year-old. Her parents went
to Atlantic City for the weekend, she is telling guys online, and she
wants to get laid. Dozens of men are now making their way to the
house, hoping to get lucky with an underage kid. One hopped on a
motorcycle for the six-hour drive from Pennsylvania; another
grabbed a train from New York in a SpongeBob SquarePants jacket,
armed with a bottle of K-Y Jelly. One by one, they pull up to this
white-shingled, weather-beaten house at the edge of the Atlantic
Ocean, with no cars in the driveway and the window shades drawn.
A mailman stuffs some bills into the shark-shaped mailbox next
door, pulling open its door of tiny white teeth.
This, as the men will soon discover, isn't just a house: It's the set

of the Dateline NBC show To Catch a Predator, the ratings

phenomenon that zooms into America's living rooms to humiliate
sexual perverts. The program's gotcha! moments are like those on
any reality show; who can forget the time they made a
bespectacled twenty-year-old come over naked for sex play with
some Cool Whip? Except Dateline sends people to jail and claims a
high-minded purpose: warning the American public about what it
calls a "growing national epidemic."
To transform a house into a giant flytrap for sexual predators, it

takes more than forty people, many of whom are hanging out in the
living room on this Friday afternoon. There's the face of the
operation: host Chris Hansen, a blond Dateline correspondent,
discussing helicopter trips to more glamorous assignments with his
producer. There's the eyes of the operation: Mitchell Wagenberg, a
spy for hire wearing a long, skinny braid down to his butt, presiding
over seventeen cameras hidden in dried-flower wreaths and the
toaster. And there's the body of the operation: Casey, a sexpot
college student and aspiring dancer in tight jeans who is playing
jailbait decoy today because her landlord dad owns this house.
(Added bonus: Local prosecutors wrote her college a note so she
could get out of a chemistry test.)
Casey gabs to potential predators on the phone. "Come on over,

we're not going to get caught," she says. "If we got caught, I would
get into trouble, and everybody would call me a slut, and I don't
want that, either. I'll pay for your gas. It's no big deal, trust me. My
dad gave me plenty of money for the weekend." When the guy fails
to take the bait, her voice rises in pitch. "OK, fine, whatever, lame.
L-A-M-E. You're being a baby. I told you I've done it a million
times!"
None of these people, however, are the brains of the operation.

Those, appropriately enough, are located upstairs, in the house's
third-floor attic. For the Dateline sting, the space has been
converted into the warren of Perverted Justice, a secretive citizenry
of seventy-five predator-fighting zealots determined to save
children from the long-term scars of sex abuse. The group is an
assortment of Genesis-loving fatsos from Texas, introverted
copywriters from Wisconsin, and New York nightclub doorgirls, with
a dedicated core of West Coast anarchist tech geeks and gamers in
their twenties and thirties. For those downstairs, To Catch a
Predator is just a TV show; for those upstairs, hunting predators is
both the coolest online game they've ever known and a life calling.
Many members of Perverted Justice use pseudonyms, keeping their
real names secret even from one another. One of the few who know
their true identities is their elusive leader, Xavier Von Erck, a
twenty-eight-year-old libertarian and atheist who kills on
Civilization IV.
It's getting late, and the four top-ranking members of Perverted

Justice here in the flesh -- Del Harvey, Frag, Pibb and Don Pedro --
are arranged around computers and video monitors balanced on the

attic's chairs and beds, eagerly awaiting their afternoon prey.

"Friday night, baby -- hookup central!" says Del. At twenty-five,
she's a computer geek's fantasy female: androgynous, beautiful,
pierced, with comprehensive musical knowledge and a house
overrun by pet Maine coons and an iguana. One of her favorite
shirts features two cars crashing into each other under the symbol
CTRL+Z. "Get it?" she asks excitedly. "It's a car crash, and Control-
Z is the command for undo!"
Del pecks madly at her keyboard, coordinating the thirty-five

volunteers who are working on this sting remotely. They chat with
men on Yahoo!, AOL and MySpace about topics such as "have u
ever given a bj b4?" and "do you have thick or thin pussy lips?" In
the past few days, PJ members posing as young girls and boys have
chatted with nearly 300 men. About thirty will actually show up at
the house this weekend. A few guys are scheduled to appear soon
-- a salesman, a printing-press operator and a college student who
has revealed that his uncle is a captain at a nearby police
department.
Suddenly Frag leans toward his IM screen, which is scrolling rapidly

with news from far-flung PJ members. "We got one -- Ikeman!" he
exclaims. "Ikeman coming from the south, in a blue Chevy Impala.
He's bringing wine coolers!"
Everyone turns their attention to the camera following the Impala

as it disgorges Ikeman, a.k.a. John Donnelly, a handsome twenty-
one-year-old who is wearing a striped sweatshirt and a look that's
equal parts sexual anticipation and terror. Casey runs outside to
meet him, taking a seat in a chair on the beach. He approaches
slowly.
"Where are the wine coolers?" she asks.
"I was going to get them after I met you because I was so
paranoid," Donnelly says, looking around. "Man, I was just worried
about this **** because I never met anyone under eighteen." He
scrutinizes a couple passing by. "I guess there are no cops around,
so it's cool."
"Yeah," says Casey, smiling. "You can see there's no one here."
He rubs his head. "I'm just worried that it's some crazy scheme,"
he says. "It's just like what you see on the news --"
"I don't watch the news!" she says, snickering.
"Well, I don't watch the news either," he says. "But you know on
Comedy Central's Daily Show, they make fun of the news, but it
really is the news, right? And I heard there's cops who pretend
they're girls and **** like that." He laughs as his body finally
relaxes, like a cat finding a patch of sun. "I guess everything's
cool," he says.

Just then, Chris Hansen streaks toward him, a camera crew not far
behind.
The degree to which things are about to get uncool for Donnelly is
amazing to contemplate. Twenty-eight men are caught in the bust,
and the local prosecutor's office brings charges against all of them.
If they're convicted, their sentences for attempted sexual assault
will range from five to ten years in prison.
In direct response to the high-profile success of To Catch a

Predator, laws against online predators have become increasingly
hostile: Internet solicitation of a minor is now a crime in a majority
of states, regardless of whether an actual minor is involved. By
2009, at least 600,000 of the country's convicted sex offenders --
including those who, like Donnelly, never met an actual minor --
will be required by a new federal law, the Adam Walsh Act, to be
listed on a national registry of sex offenders. There, on easy-to-
navigate maps for the entire country, their photos and home
addresses will appear next to categories such as aliases, sentence
and "computer used." Republican Sen. Orrin Hatch even thanked
Perverted Justice for "directly impacting" the law's passage.
Twenty-four states now forbid sex offenders from living near a host
of public places -- including schools, parks, day-care centers and
bus stops -- effectively shutting them out of many cities. Florida
and Oklahoma require some sex offenders to submit to GPS
monitoring for the rest of their lives. Ohio lawmakers even tried to
pass a bill in 2005 to force sex offenders to sport pink license plates
on their cars, but pressure from Mary Kay cosmetics, whose logo is
pink, stymied the plan. This year, legislators are trying again with
fluorescent-green plates.
This is much to the glee of Perverted Justice, which views child sex
abuse as a vastly underrated evil, one deserving of harsher
punishment. "I'm just a guy working within the Constitution to
make the world a better place, using my freedom of speech to chat
with individuals on the other end of the screen name," says Frag.
"How much more gratifying does it get than finding guys who are
about to molest children and putting them in jail? Not many
Americans have that."
In reality, though, the stings conducted by Perverted Justice are

essentially designed to circumvent the Constitution. Police
departments are largely overtaxed in the area of Internet crimes,
and since Dateline reportedly pays Perverted Justice $100,000 per
sting, the group is able to provide its services to the cops for free.
In many ways, it is a subcontracted police force, with Del and Frag
even deputized by local cops for one Dateline sting. But because its
members are private citizens, their actions are impervious to
charges of entrapment. Casey's come-on at the New Jersey house
is not unusual: Perverted Justice tries to talk predators who have
decided against a date into changing their mind, making calls in
calming, baby-girl voices to men who are having second thoughts.

While some police departments enjoy the publicity that Perverted

Justice brings, many in the criminal-justice field aren't so sanguine
about the group's tactics. "We can't let anyone who wants simply
become law enforcement," says Mike Iacopino, co-chair of a task
force on sex offenders assembled by the National Association of
Criminal Defense Lawyers. "This is no different than letting a guy
with a six-shooter walk around protecting your hometown." Indeed,
many child-protection agencies express a disapproval of Dateline.
"We've seen numerous cases that would constitute entrapment, and
then Chris Hansen shoves a camera in these guys' faces and they
end up convicted on the basis of the camera confession," says Brad
Russ, director of training for Internet Crimes Against Children, a
federally funded task force that declined to partner with Dateline.
"The whole thing is a perversion of the way the criminal-justice
system is supposed to operate."
There is something undeniably disturbing about watching a delicate

law-enforcement operation being orchestrated by a group of
citizens hellbent on revenge -- and anonymous ones at that.
(During a Dateline sting in Texas, one alleged predator committed
suicide while cameras waited down the street from his house.) In
addition to the seventy-five "high-security-clearance" members who
form the core of Perverted Justice, another 45,000 people have
signed up for the group's online forums, where anyone can puff up
their chest and play deputy dog. Despite warnings by the group,
these nameless volunteers have made harassing phone calls to
predators and mailed flyers to local businesses outing sex
offenders. In addition, they post their own "investigations" under a
section called "Human Shields." Perverted Justice also posts the
pornographic material that predators have sent to decoys --
Webcam photos of their penises, videos of themselves masturbating
-- alongside their first names and hometowns, thus disseminating
the very perversions it fights.
Even more disturbing, anti-predator stings involving decoys may

actually outnumber crimes involving real victims. On an early
episode of To Catch a Predator, Dateline estimated that there are
50,000 predators online at any moment -- a number the show
pretty much made up out of thin air, though that didn't stop
Attorney General Alberto Gonzales from citing it as fact in a speech
last year. But a study conducted by the University of New
Hampshire estimated that there were fewer than 2,900 arrests for
online sexual offenses against minors in a single year. What's more,
only 1,152 involved victims who were approached by strangers on
the Internet -- and more than half this number were actually cops
posing as kids.
Perverted justice started out as a hobby. You could call it Stupid

Pedophile Tricks -- Internet geeks have long pretended to be young
girls and boys in chat rooms and then turned the tables on
unsuspecting guys ("u be the nurse"; "I jam the thermometer down
the head til you feel it touch your pelvic bone"). In 2002, Von Erck,

at the time a tech for a TurboTax-like computer program, and Frank

Fencepost, a thirtysomething tattoo artist and motorcyclist, began
playing tricks in chat rooms in Portland, Oregon. Fencepost took
things to another level, telling guys to come over with Taco Bell and
pizza, then meeting them at the door with a raised baseball bat.
"Innocence is a very precious commodity, and it's in our interest to

preserve a kid's as long as possible," says Fencepost. "There's
nothing finer than the feeling when some bastard who thought he
was about to 'score big' with a ten-year-old gets the surprise of his
life: my face on his monitor, my voice on his phone and, in a
figurative sense at least, my **** in his mouth."
Fencepost and Von Erck posted the logs of these chats, attracting a
dozen others who wanted to get in on the fun. This new group
increasingly took its tricks offline, bullying alleged predators with
sinister phone calls. One PJ member who calls himself Antiperv said
he posed as the principal of a local elementary school. "I'm having
a 'Get to Know You Better Day,' and I'd like to have you come down
and piss on all the kids," Antiperv told his victim. "Talk to us about
the best liquids to drink to get a good yellow piss, and, if time
permits, allow the children to piss on you." They also made
inflammatory calls to the families, neighbors and employers of
predators. "It's important to be very explicit in your calls," says a
former member. "Once a predator is incarcerated, you can call the
prison and say, 'This particular prisoner wanted to make a thirteen-
year-old girl eat dog food while he ****ed her in the ass.' One can
assume that would stick in a guard's head."
But in 2004, Von Erck and Fencepost had a falling-out over tactics.
"Xavier became much more oriented toward getting pedophiles
arrested rather than just making them complete social pariahs in
their neighborhood," says Fencepost. A Detroit broadcast on Von
Erck caught the attention of Hansen, a smart reporter known for
using hidden cameras, who took the idea to Dateline in 2004. All
told, Perverted Justice has helped arrest about 250 men with the
show, nabbed 200 more in other stings and scared straight
hundreds of others. In a move that whitewashed the group's prior
bullying and abusive tactics, Von Erck has wiped all traces of early
chats, including Fencepost's, from the Perverted Justice Web site.
Earlier this year, he deleted entries from his personal blog as well,
upset that journalists had located them and quoted some of his
writing: "I wish I could ****ing kill 9/11 conspiracy theorists. Yes,
kill. I'd like to kill them. . . . I want you to die. I wish you would die.
Why don't you die? Just die." For a while clicking on his blog
brought up a message addressed to "lazy idiots who aren't that
bright." The subject line read, "You'll have to do some work now."
For a group devoted to exposing those who hide behind online

anonymity, the masterminds behind To Catch a Predator are only
sporadically accountable themselves. Perverted Justice didn't
respond to my e-mails for nearly two weeks, claiming that my
account had blocked its return messages because the "perverted" in

their URL was registering as pornographic. NBC, for its part, refused
to provide any phone numbers for New Jersey predators, citing a
"standards and practices" provision that bars it from sharing
unpublished news-gathering. And a particularly disaffected former
member of Perverted Justice left me a vaguely threatening voice
message: "The reason I'm calling is one of the things that makes PJ
cultlike is I spent some time wondering if you are who you said you
were or a PJer trying to see what they could find out about me. I
spent a half-hour poking around, I found out you and your husband
are thirty-three years old, and he's been arrested in California for
something minor, and you and I went to the same school. . . . Also,
you post too much information about yourself on the Web. I
wouldn't add to it. I just wanted to let you know I had that thought."
The predators themselves were incommunicado as well. I searched

for more than a hundred men busted by Perverted Justice and
found only eleven with listed numbers, all of whom were terrified --
worried about being evicted from their homes, losing their jobs,
even becoming targets of random violence. (One study shows that
as many as one in two sex offenders experience some form of
harassment by strangers.) I sat behind a noisy waterfall in a vegan
restaurant with one Dateline predator and in a banquette with high
seat backs in a Mexican cafe with another, and they were still
worried about who was watching them. "Maybe I'm paranoid, but
I've got good reason to be paranoid," wailed one. A divorced father
of two started to weep: "I love Dunkin' Donuts, but I won't go in
anymore. I'm so scared of the first encounter with someone I know
who has seen me on TV."
Although To Catch a Predator fosters the belief that child molesters

are largely violent and untreatable, sex offenders actually have the
lowest rearrest rates of all convicts. According to the federal Bureau
of Justice Statistics, only five percent of convicted sex offenders re-
offend in three years, and studies show that fewer than one in four
commit another sex crime in fifteen years. Men who rape women
are more likely to return to their old ways than pedophiles who
molest girls.
What's more, Perverted Justice's tactics may actually make the

threat of child sex abuse worse instead of better. While the group
has caught dangerous predators who eluded other law-enforcement
methods, ninety percent of the men busted on To Catch a Predator
have no rap sheet, and few have any sort of sex offense on their
record. By whipping up public frenzy about online strangers,
Perverted Justice diverts attention from the real source of child sex
abuse: relatives and acquaintances. According to the Bureau of
Justice Statistics, ninety-three percent of perpetrators of child
sexual abuse are known to the child. "The focus on 'stranger
danger' makes most people less suspicious of those they know,"
says Jill Levenson, a leading sex-crimes researcher at Lynn
University in Florida. "And that could make it easier for known
abusers to fly below the radar."

What Perverted Justice leaves in its wake are a lot of disturbed men
with deep psychosexual problems whose national humiliation robs
them of any real chance of re-entering society. Wesley Brannen, a
twenty-five-year-old carpenter from San Bernardino, California,
who was busted by the group, was released in January after
eighteen months in prison. At six-one and 265 pounds, he looks like
a white-boy gangster: shaved head, Vandyke beard, red plaid shirt.
His parole officer is making him wear a GPS bracelet, but Brannen
looks on the bright side. "The good thing is that not only child
molesters wear these things, but gang members too," he says. "So
I figure people will think I'm in a gang."
At first, Brannen speaks softly, talking about how he has slept with
only four women in his life. He says he even wrote Perverted Justice
an apologetic letter. But soon he's bursting with a toxic mix of
anger and bravado. "These thirteen-year-old girls don't look like
thirteen-year-olds no more!" he says. "Man, when I'm off parole,
maybe I'll get a woman from Peru -- one who doesn't speak
English, so she won't ask about my past."
As he talks, Brannen drives aimlessly around San Bernardino in his

Lexus. His dad and mom both live too close to schools, so Brannen
is staying at a halfway house in the hills. Though he's clean now, he
used to be a meth addict who made his living scamming credit
cards. He hit on Perverted Justice's thirteen-year-old decoy, he
says, only because he had just returned home from a weekend
smoking meth with some girls at a roadside motel and was still hot
and bothered when he got on Yahoo! chat. "I was thinking to
myself, 'This ain't right,' but I was so spun everything was off-
kilter," he says.
After a while, Brannen reveals that he was molested by an older

man when he was seven. "For so long I carried that around," he
says, "like it was my fault that he did that to me." Deep down, he
wanted revenge and became obsessed with searching for registered
sex offenders online. "If a guy did something serious, like molest a
young kid, I'd try to get the homeboys to go over there and clean
out the guy's house," Brannen says, stroking his beard. "Now I'm in
the same situation myself, and I'm worried about who is going to
come get me."
In recent weeks, it has started to seem like Perverted Justice may

have overstayed its welcome on the national stage. For the first
time, its tactics are starting to backfire. A district attorney in Texas
recently refused to prosecute twenty-four men busted by Dateline,
citing insufficient evidence, and the city manager who put together
the sting was forced to resign in disgrace. NBC also got rid of the
show's producer, who retaliated with a suit alleging that she
became a target when she expressed reservations about the ethics
of the show. NBC denies that claim, but a source within the network
says that the days of To Catch a Predator, unpopular with
advertisers, are numbered: NBC plans to phase out the show after
four more stings.

None of this bothers Xavier Von Erck, whose obsession launched

the franchise. "Hey, the TV show could go away tomorrow, and it
doesn't matter to me," he says. "Perverted Justice will still do what
we do, roll how we roll."
Von Erck, whose nickname is X, is sitting in a bookstore cafe in

Portland, dressed all in black. He looks a little like Philip Seymour
Hoffman, five-eleven and round all over. He wears tinted
eyeglasses and walks with a limp because he spends so much time
at the computer that his eyes are now light-sensitive and his leg
muscles have seized up. In a way, he's an odd doppelganger for
Brannen, another guy who seems childlike but wants to be a
gangster.
Though he wasn't molested himself, Von Erck felt robbed of his

childhood by his father and legally changed his name from Phillip
Eide to eradicate the last vestiges of his paternal namesake. "My
dad was an alcoholic scumbag commercial fisherman who hit my
mom," he says. "She left him when I was one, and he went on to
impregnate ten more women up and down the West Coast. His
name is garbage." As a teenager, the only thing that brought Von
Erck back to a state of innocence and wonder was the computer --
until he decided that the online world was teeming with sex
offenders. "I was so into the computer," he says. "I went into chat
rooms thinking it was going to be utopia, and it was dystopia."
It's easy to see how Perverted Justice resembles a game to Von

Erck. Intentionally enigmatic himself, he demands utter
transparency from predators and Perverted Justice members, like a
junior-high-school kid playing D&D who always wants to be the
dungeon master so he can control every aspect of the game. He
guards his power closely, requiring members to give him their
entire Internet history (all screen names, all pages joined) and
going to war with "stupid" people who dare to criticize Perverted
Justice. He exacted a particularly sadistic form of revenge against
Bruce Raisley, a software developer from Arkansas who launched
an aggressive anti-PJ crusade. Posing as a woman named Holly,
Von Erck began an online flirtation with Raisley, who was smitten
enough to leave his wife and rent a new apartment. On the day
Raisley went to pick up Holly at the airport, Von Erck sent a friend
to snap his photo and posted it with a warning: "Tonight, Bruce
Raisley stood around at an airport, flowers in hand, waiting for a
woman that turned out to be a man. . . . He has no one. He has no
more secrets. . . . Perverted-Justice.com will only tolerate so much
in the way of threats and attacks upon us."
Here, after all, is the point of Perverted Justice: to destroy and

vanquish, to re- establish utopia, both online and off. With or
without To Catch a Predator, the man known as X is onto the next
stage of the game, taking on even bigger prey than horny guys who
stalk young girls. Von Erck's new obsession is what he calls
"corporate sex offenders" – online sites that don't do enough, in his

view, to rein in the pedophiles who use their services. MySpace is

exempt from the campaign -- since March, at the request of PJ, it
has removed more than 3,000 predators from its site and
forwarded their addresses and online profiles to the police. But Von
Erck is mobilizing his thousands of followers to write letters to
companies advertising on LiveJournal and YouTube, demanding
they withdraw their support.
"Corporations have a choice about having the pedophile community

use their service and upload videos on their sites," he says. "People
want to know if you're responsible on this issue."
Von Erck looks out into the distance, imagining a world in which
every predator has been ferreted o ut and cyberspace is his again.
"When it comes to the Internet, pedophiles got there first," he says.
"It's a check game, where they make one move and we try to check
it. But slowly but surely, we're catching up."
__________________
guys are."

their people."
13, 1787
08-10-2007 09:47 AM
Navigatr1 Judge: Perverted Justice Founder 'Solicited Child Molestation'

Extended Sabatical
ON THE DOCKET
Judge: Perverted Justice Founder 'Solicited Child Molestation'
http://www.radaronline.com/exclusiv...-a-predator.php
Location: The pudgy, pasty, and exceedingly creepy founder of Perverted
Posts: 31403
Justice, the online vigilante group that NBC News pays to lure in
gap-toothed perverts for Dateline NBC's "To Catch a Predator,"
narrowly escaped a taste of his own medicine last week. On August
10, a judge in Oglethorpe County, Georgia, issued a previously
unreported order finding that "there is probable cause to believe
that Xavier Von Erck solicited ... child molestation, statutory rape,
or attempted child molestation or attempted statutory rape."

Sadly, it's not quite as deliciously ironic as it sounds: There's no

evidence (yet) that Von Erck is a secret pedophile. The case stems
from a rather novel legal theory pursued by Robert E. White, whose
son Robert Gerald White was arrested for attempted child
molestation and attempted statutory rape after a Dateline sting in
Harris County, Georgia, last year. The elder White thinks that Von
Erck, by posing as a 15-year-old girl during online chats with his
son, actually solicited the younger White into showing up at the
Dateline house for sex. And in Georgia, solicitation is a crime.
Robert E. White's attorney, Gary Gerrard, went to a Georgia state

judge last month seeking a warrant for Von Erck's arrest for
criminal solicitation, and the judge, by and large, agreed: He issued
an order stating that "there is probable cause to believe that Xavier
Von Erck communicated with Robert Gerald White with intent that
Robert Gerald White would engage in conduct constituting a
felony." In other words, Von Erck wanted the younger White to
break the law and tried to get him to do so, behavior that is usually
considered criminal in Georgia. But the judge declined to issue the
warrant, finding that there was no way the younger White could
have actually committed the crime that Von Erck was soliciting him
to commit—there was, after all, no 15-year-old girl to molest.
But it might not be that simple. Gerrard and other sources familiar
with Georgia criminal law say the judge plainly got it wrong.
Georgia law clearly states that "it is no defense to a prosecution for

criminal solicitation that the person solicited could not be guilty of
the crime solicited." So if Von Erck were prosecuted for solicitation,
he wouldn't be able to argue that he knew all along that no actual
15-year-old girl was going to be molested.
"The law says the impossibility of committing the crime is not a

defense," says Gerrard.
What's more, White was charged with attempted molestation, a

crime that he actually committed by showing up at the Dateline
house. And that crime, the judge's order says, was solicited by Von
Erck.
"It seems clear here that Von Erck did intend for this man to
commit a felony," said Robert D. Leonard II, a Georgia criminal
defense attorney who maintains a blog on Georgia law. "The felony
would be attempted child molestation."
Gerrard says he is considering his options and may appeal the order.
In a statement, NBC said, "We believe our newsgathering and

activities in connection with "To Catch a Predator" fully complied
with Georgia law."
E-mailed for a response, Von Erck replied, "Thanks for contacting us

for comment. Unfortunately, you're not a legitimate reporter, you're

just a rather scummy fellow who writes for a tabloid rag. Other than
being told that you're a scummy hack who resembles a stalker
more than a journalist, we don't have any comment for you on this
issue or any other issue."
By John Cook 08/17/07 8:45 AM
VON PERV Xavier

http://www.radaronline.com/exclusiv...81607_fresh.jpg
Attachment: xavier von erck.jpg

__________________
guys are."

their people."
13, 1787
08-22-2007 05:53 PM
Navigatr1 Strange Bedfellows

Extended Sabatical
Strange Bedfellows
Xavier Von Erck dropped out of college, started a pedophile-hunting
vigilante group, and spent months posing as a woman to trick an
Registered: Jul 2003 online enemy into falling in love with him. Meet the new savior of
Location: NBC News
Posts: 31403
http://www.radaronline.com/features..._bedfellows.php
By John Cook
As NBC gears up for fall, no doubt full of hope that it can avoid a
third consecutive season as the fourth-place network, you're likely
to see a lot of familiar faces plastered on the sides of buses:
Meredith Vieira, Brian Williams, Steve Carell, Donald Trump. One
face you won't see, however, belongs to a 27-year-old community
college dropout from Portland, Oregon, who is responsible for an
NBC ratings phenomenon that has eclipsed or matched those stars'
shows: His cunning idea, which makes for endlessly watchable and

deeply nauseating television, regularly doubles Today's audience,

draws more viewers than both the Nightly News and The Office, and
nearly tied The Apprentice in audience last season, a tonic that NBC
desperately needs as it founders in the ratings.
His name is Xavier Von Erck, and the program he helped create is
"To Catch a Predator," the recurring special "investigation" into the
sexual depravity of drooling, sweaty creeps that periodically hijacks
Dateline NBC during sweeps months. Xavier Von Erck—if the name
sounds invented, that's because it is, but more on that later—is the
founder and public face of Perverted Justice, an all-volunteer online
organization that seeks to expose adults who troll chat rooms
looking for youngsters to have sex with. Its members do this by
posing as 12- or 13-year-olds online, engaging in sexual banter
with older men, setting up meetings purportedly for sex, and then,
after verifying a target's identity, posting his name and personal
details online and encouraging readers to call his family and
employer to let them know what he's been doing with his free time.
But it's not only predators who have found themselves duped and
publicly disgraced by Von Erck. He once set out to destroy an
enemy by posing as a woman, seducing him online with graphic sex
chats, posting the transcripts on the web, and threatening to
release a purported video of his target masturbating—not the kind
of behavior you'd expect from NBC News's golden boy.
Von Erck, who previously worked tech support jobs, launched

Perverted Justice in 2003. "I was a chatter in the Portland Yahoo
regional rooms," he tells Radar in an e-mail. "I, like many, had the
notion that individuals going online to solicit kids would be arrested,
that cops were all over the chatrooms monitoring things. However,
week after week passed and the same guys who would mass-post
things like, 'Any 14-to-15-year-olds in here want to make money
modeling?' and other solicitations would still be there. It was
disturbing." He figured that if he could pretend to be a kid, he could
embarrass the lurkers and make every potential predator paranoid
about contacting children online.
Perverted Justice initially limited itself to publicizing the names and

contact information of its targets on the website. Eventually, local
news crews in Portland and elsewhere began collaborating with Von
Erck to set up sting operations—drawing perverts to a rented
house, filming them as they approached, and using the footage to
scare the **** out of parents during sweeps. It was, at best, a
mediocre gimmick suitable for mid-market local news until Dateline
hit on the idea that would make "To Catch a Predator" a cultural
touchstone: Set up a pompous correspondent inside the house to
interview the startled pervs and make them sweat. With smarmy
host Chris Hansen onboard, the show takes on the classic elements
of Aristotelian drama. First, viewers feel pity for the marks, who
slowly come to understand before our eyes that they've just
wrecked their lives; next comes fear, enhanced by creepy graphics
and hard-to-prove statistics indicating that everybody on the

Internet wants to molest your daughter; and finally we experience

a satisfying sense of purgation as each sucker is taken violently to
the ground by local police waiting outside the house.
Even by the bug-eating, race-baiting, promiscuity-celebrating

standards of reality television, "To Catch a Predator" is monstrously
exploitative—a Television Age Roman coliseum where freakish
criminals are publicly humiliated for bloodsport and ratings.
Granted, these are bad men, and it's a good thing they are being
stopped, hopefully, from hurting actual children. But they can be
stopped—and are stopped all the time by local police stings—
without parading them across our television screens for titillated
and enraged audiences to gawk at between commercial breaks.
And, of course, "To Catch a Predator" is not reality television. It's

produced under the auspices of NBC's vaunted news division, which
has gone to unprecedented lengths to secure Von Erck's ongoing
cooperation, reportedly paying him in excess of $100,000 per
episode for his services, and even giving him, according to one
source, a cut of any revenue from future DVD sales of the shows.
That arrangement, and the show's sensationalism, make some at
the network squirm.
"I think it's fascinating television," says one former NBC News
producer who loathes the show but often can't look away. "Although
I find myself rooting for the pedophiles."
Not much is known about Von Erck's background. He's cagey in

interviews—he agreed to talk to Radar only via e-mail—and doesn't
reveal much personal information for fear of being targeted by one
of the men he has exposed. He was raised in Portland by his
mother, who struggled to support the family by working odd jobs—
from Taco Bell to a gas station—and moved 12 times before his
junior year of high school. He was the captain of his high school's
mock trial team, and he continues to demonstrate a facility for
debate and rhetoric on his blog, Angry German, where he alternates
between charming posts about his love of Portland, video games,
and professional wrestling, and vicious, unhinged screeds against
various targets. Some of Von Erck's rants betray a hint of the
sadism that informs "To Catch a Predator." After a spate of
kidnappings and beheadings in Iraq in 2004, Von Erck wrote that he
was "positively appalled at Nicholas Berg," who "kneeled meekly
and struggled naught [sic] as his death was thrust upon him ...
bending to the will of the kidnappers." He was even more enraged
by the "shameless and pathetic" conduct of Kim Sun-il, a kidnapped
South Korean translator who appeared in a video released by Iraqi
insurgents (he was later beheaded). "The asshole, yes, the asshole,
screamed in English, pleading for his life," Von Erck wrote. "Let me
be the first and probably only American to wish for his speedy
death.... No life of such a worm, a coward, can be considered
important." Of 9/11 conspiracy theorists, Von Erck had this to say:
"I wish I could ****ing kill 9/11 conspiracy theorists. Yes, kill. I'd
like to kill them. Kill them all... I want you to die. I wish you would

die. Why don't you die? Just die."
Von Erck's birth name is Phillip John Eide. Although he legally

changed it earlier this year in a Portland court, he says he has gone
by Xavier Von Erck since he was 15. Erck is his mother's maiden
name, to which he added the "Von" in a nod to his German
heritage. "Xavier" he just picked. "My old name was the name my
father gave me," he says. "Being that my father had no role in my
upbringing, as a teen I did not see the logic in being stuck with his
name. So I took my mother's name as a tribute to her, and a new
first name." (In the Perverted Justice world, where anonymous
volunteers going by handles like Epiphany and Peppermint Patty
pretend to be children online, identity is a tricky thing to nail down.
Von Erck's longtime friend and roommate, formerly known as
Nicholas Wilkins, has also legally changed his name to his online
handle, Phoebus Apollo.)
Von Erck briefly attended Mt. Hood Community College before

dropping out in the face of what he called a "productive Internet
addiction." He then worked various tech support jobs while building
up Perverted Justice; now, running the website and coordinating
Perverted Justice's role in the Dateline busts is his full-time job. As
for how and why he made a career of humiliating perverts, Von
Erck is demure: "The site has grown and evolved because people
have come to it and suggested ideas, come up with technological
improvements, etc. I just organize and direct it. I try not to take
credit for the site succeeding, the credit goes to how pervasive the
problem is online and how dedicated people are toward fighting it."
Nevertheless, Perverted Justice has many enemies. There are

websites devoted to attacking Von Erck and his nameless volunteer
corps, and to outing and identifying the people who conduct
Perverted Justice's stings. These anti-PJ activists describe
themselves as combating vigilantism and what they see as the
group's entrapment tactics.
According to an account posted by Von Erck, one of Perverted

Justice's fiercest critics was a 44-year-old software developer from
Searcy, Arkansas, named Bruce Raisley. Raisley was a frequent
poster to a forum at an anti-PJ site called Anti-Vigilante Special
Operations (AVSO) and he posted several threatening and
seemingly deranged comments to the site. He claimed, among
other things, to have written a virus that he would unleash upon
Perverted Justice volunteers, and used his computer skills to harass
Perverted Justice members by exposing the online handles they
used when posing as children and tracking down their real
identities. He once threatened, during an IM chat, to "**** or beat"
one Perverted Justice activist if he ever met him (Raisley thought
he was communicating with a woman at the time). It's unclear why
Raisley, a private pilot and ham radio enthusiast, was so militantly
opposed to Perverted Justice. He has claimed he was once a
Perverted Justice member but broke with the group after another
member found a photograph of Railey's son online and used it in a

decoy Yahoo profile—in other words, used his son as bait for
perverts. Perverted Justice denies this.
Von Erck claims he contacted local authorities in Arkansas and the

FBI about Raisley but they "simply weren't moving fast enough for
my tastes, considering how bold he was getting about his threats."
So he decided to mete out his own form of perverse justice,
introducing himself to Raisley online, via instant messenger.
He called himself "Holly."
Holly and Raisley hit it off. They conducted a months-long

correspondence via IM, and gradually, Raisley fell in love with his
new online pal. Holly would occasionally inquire about Raisley's anti-
Perverted Justice activities, but eventually the conversation turned
to sex:
[Raisley]: what r u doing?

[Holly]: I have my fingers in
[Raisley]: i am holding it
[Holly]: are you rubbing it
[Raisley]: r u rubbing your clit?
[Holly]: yes. it feels so good baby
The couple had cybersex twice. Holly repeatedly begged Raisley to

masturbate in front of a webcam for her. Raisley told her about his
son, his job, his role as a Boy Scout troop leader. Eventually,
Raisley came clean to his wife about Holly, told her that they were
in love, and declared that Holly was moving to Arkansas. After
securing an apartment for the two of them to live in, he went to
pick up Holly at the airport. He was carrying flowers.
Von Erck never got on the plane, but he did find someone to go to
the airport at the appointed time to snap a picture of a hopeful
Raisley waiting for his love to arrive. Then he posted it online, along
with the entire text of their chat and a threat to release a video file
he claimed showed Raisley masturbating. And then this message to
Perverted Justice's detractors: "[W]hen you attempt to threaten
members of Perverted-Justice.com ... this can happen to you.
Tonight, Bruce Raisley stood around at an airport, flowers in hand,
waiting for a woman that turned out to be a man. He's not in love.
He has destroyed his relationship with his wife, he has denigrated
her, and he has betrayed all those around him. He has no one. He
has no more secrets. We at Perverted-Justice.com will only tolerate
so much in the way of threats and attacks upon us."
Today, Von Erck professes sympathy for his victim. "As much as I
hated Bruce Raisley for what he tried to do," he says, "I felt bad for
him in the sense that the guy definitely has some mental issues. My
hope is that Raisley gets mental health help, he sticks with his wife,
and they live a happy, threatening- and harassing-free life. The
head game that was played with him was only done in order to
'knock him out' so to speak."

Raisley was indeed knocked out. A call to his home in Arkansas was
answered by a woman who said she was his wife. "That was just a
big old mess," she said. "He's already lost one job over this, and he
doesn't want anybody to know about it. I'm just hoping this will just
fade away." Though she would not comment on the accuracy of Von
Erck's online account, she admitted having read it.
Von Erck is not the first strange man—and pretending to be a

woman for the purposes of seducing a man over a period of months
in order to publicly ruin him is nothing if not strange—that NBC
News has worked with in order to gather the news. But the extent
of the network's business relationship with Von Erck has raised
eyebrows in the halls of NBC News.
According to an April Washington Post story, Perverted Justice was

paid a "low six figures" consultancy fee to organize a sting
operation for Dateline in Ohio. Sources knowledgable about the
inner workings of NBC confirm that account, and say NBC is paying
the group between $100,000 and $150,000 per show. According to
one current NBC News staffer and one former NBC official, the
figure was arrived at after Perverted Justice saw the ratings success
of its first three Dateline shows and retained the services of Steve
Sadicario, a former ABC News executive and agent with NS
Bienstock, a firm that represents Bill O'Reilly, Anderson Cooper, and
Dan Rather. Sadicario, according to the sources, started a "bidding
war" for Perverted Justice's services after shopping an idea for a
show to Fox and ABC. NBC won.
The deal that Perverted Justice cut with NBC is unusual in two
respects: For one, according to the former NBC News official, it was
negotiated by the network's entertainment lawyers, not by the
news division's legal staff. Secondly, according to an NBC News
staffer, Perverted Justice is entitled to a portion of any revenue
from DVD sales of "To Catch a Predator" episodes—an arrangement
common in the entertainment world but unheard of in the context
of a news division's relationship with a consultant.
The staffer notes, "It would be the first back-end deal in the history
of journalism."
It's not hard to see why NBC would go to great lengths to keep Von
Erck in its stable, and to ride the "To Catch a Predator"
phenomenon as far as it can. So far, the original broadcasts have
averaged 9.2 million viewers, beating out such entertainment-
division staples as Will & Grace (with an average of 8.6 million
viewers last season) and The Office (7.9 million). In the advertiser-
friendly 18-to-49-year-old demographic, "To Catch a Predator"
episodes ranked 16 among NBC's 41 regularly broadcast shows last
season, beating Scrubs and Fear Factor. While it's a special edition
of Dateline NBC, rather than a show in its own right, it was one of
NBC's few successful new offerings last season. Only Deal or No
Deal, Surface, and My Name Is Earl outperformed it in the 18-to-49-
year-old demographic.

Both Von Erck and David Corvo, executive producer of Dateline,

who submitted to a brief interview and did not return subsequent
phone calls, say they are unaware of plans for a DVD, and both say
they don't know if Perverted Justice would get any portion of the
revenues if a DVD were sold. Sadicario did not return repeated
phone calls.
Both NBC and Von Erck declined to discuss specifics of the deal, and
Von Erck says that "by and large," he hasn't seen any of the NBC
money yet. (He told Willamette Week in May that he'd only been
paid $20,000 so far.) But if Perverted Justice is getting paid more
than $100,000 per sting, it has earned more than $400,000 since
April.
"It was getting expensive," Von Erck says. "We literally could not
keep our website up anymore due to the site traffic. At that point it
was either no more Datelines or a consultation fee. At the end of
the day, the cameramen were getting paid, Chris Hansen was
getting paid, the producers of Dateline were getting paid, the police
were paying themselves via public funds to do the arrests, the guy
who owns the house was getting compensated, the security there
was being paid. So it was only natural to seek compensation for the
expensive work that we do."
Asked to outline the expenses involved in operating Perverted

Justice, Von Erck cites only server costs to handle traffic driven to
the group's website by the exposure on Dateline and "confidential"
expenses associated with the stings. Perverted Justice has no paid
staff and no offices. In fact, it is not even a legal entity. Von Erck
says he is in the process of incorporating it as a nonprofit, but
claims not to know in which state. Von Erck says he is not
personally being paid by NBC and claims not to know precisely to
whom NBC is making out the checks.
The arrangement, and the fact that the shows involve cooperation
with law enforcement, has some NBC News staff apoplectic. "We've
crawled into bed with the cops. People think this will be the pickup
truck for the new decade," says one Dateline producer, referring to
the notorious episode in 1993 in which Dateline was caught faking
exploding gas tanks in GM trucks. "One of these guys is going to go
home and shoot himself in the head. The Perverted Justice people
are insane, and they'll do something to embarrass us. One of the
biggest corporations in the world ought to find a better target than
skanky guys in shorts."
"There's no doubt," says another NBC News staffer, "that

somewhere down the line, some district attorney is going to ask us
for outtakes or footage from a story, and we're going to say, 'We
don't do that because we don't want to be an agent of the police.'
And he's going to say, 'You did with "Predator." There is a sense [in
the news division] that standards don't matter."
Indeed, the network has already been confronted with such a

dilemma: In one prosecution that resulted from a Dateline sting,

that of Rabbi David Kaye of Rockville, MD, the defense issued a
subpoena for the unedited footage of Kaye's conversation with Chris
Hansen. NBC's lawyers filed a motion to quash the subpoena,
according to Kaye's attorney, in which they signaled their intent to
argue that as a news organization they should be shielded from
having to reveal the products of newsgathering. But it would be
incoherent of NBC to assert its independence when it comes to
judicial subpoenas at the same time it invites police officers to
participate in its newsgathering efforts. NBC's lawyers quickly
realized this and agreed to make the unedited footage available for
download on the Dateline website. If the network published it for
the world to see, the twisted logic went, it could avoid the
unpleasant prospect of defending in court the very principle of
independence that it had sacrificed on the screen. (On September
6, Kaye was convicted in federal court of enticing a minor and
crossing state lines for illicit sex with a minor.)
It's not just NBC staff that finds fault with "To Catch a Predator."
Brad Russ, the former commander of the Internet Crimes Against
Children Task Force (ICAC) for Northern New England, a federal
program designed to help local authorities fight child pornography
and Internet predators, has participated in many online sting
operations. "I have a real problem with any citizens' group
conducting any investigation into any crime," he says. "It's a
mistake for law enforcement to abdicate its responsibility to
citizens." And NBC, he says, is playing with fire by drawing
potentially dangerous men to residential neighborhoods and
confronting them. "How would you feel if the media rented a house
in your neighborhood and drew 30 people who've demonstrated a
propensity for children to your house? What happens when they
flee at a high rate of speed and they T-bone your wife's car? We
would never set up a sting in a residential neighborhood." Russ
adds that targets could be armed, and that an ICAC officer in
Florida was shot and killed during a sting.
Kimberly Mitchell, a researcher for the Crimes Against Children

Research Center at the University of New Hampshire, has studied
both the efficacy of Internet stings and the risks that children face
online. While she says properly conducted stings by law
enforcement are a useful tool, she worries that "Predator"
overstates the problem. "We've talked to kids, and I think [sexual
solicitations online] are something they've come to expect to
happen," she says. "It's fairly common for them to see these things
and experience them." In fact, according to Mitchell's research, fully
two thirds of children who were solicited online last year brushed off
the incident, and only four percent of children who regularly used
the Internet received "distressing" solicitations. "On the one hand,"
Mitchell says, "it's good that people are aware. On the other hand,
it's blown very far out of proportion—it's extreme. It tells you one
small piece of the story. It can distort the truth and present this
false fear."

NBC and Perverted Justice are in the process of filming more stings
for this season. "They have a whole fresh new bunch for
September," says the Dateline producer. "Several weeks' worth.
There are a lot of people who would like to see it as a show."
But if initial reports from the unaired stings are any indication, a
new series based on "Predator" wouldn't last long. One of the key
elements of "Predator" segments is Chris Hansen's "and you won't
believe ... " moment, when the predator turns out to be a teacher,
a lawyer, a rabbi. It's a message that plays well to the upscale
audience NBC caters to. These people could be your neighbors. But
according to an NBC News staffer, the stings have become a victim
of their own success. "What I heard was that they had a tough time
of it," the staffer says. "The smarter predators have figured it out.
You're not getting the rabbis, doctors, and teachers. You're getting
losers."
And losers, as the former NBC News official put it, "aren't in the
demo."
This story was updated on September 7 at 3 p.m. EST.
09/07/06
__________________
guys are."

their people."
13, 1787
08-22-2007 06:00 PM

AVENGER I told you so. Some of these PJ people are as strange as the people
Senior Member they target.
Thanks to Navigatr1 for investigating this story further.
__________________
Thomas Jefferson
Registered: Feb 2007 "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do
Location: This is hell. nothing."
Posts: 679
Edmund Burke
convicted."
08-23-2007 06:13 PM
Navigatr1 Show breaches legal boundaries

Extended Sabatical
Show breaches legal boundaries

http://media.www.beaconnewspaper.co...s-2981185.shtml
Registered: Jul 2003 Eric Feldman / Contributing Writer

Location: Issue date: 9/20/07 Section: Opinion
Posts: 31403
The issue of child predators has been continually addressed in the
media over the past few years, and law enforcement agencies have
been focusing on using the Internet to find persons using the Web
in hopes of soliciting sex from minors. By posing as children,
officers arrange to meet with predators who are subsequently
arrested.
These stings have been very profitable to outlets such as NBC who
regularly air them on the investigative series "To Catch a Predator."
Some students from the Miami area probably remember WSVN-7

meteorologist Bill Kamal, who was arrested for meeting a fictional
"young boy" he met via the Internet.
Many parents became alarmed when the Broward Sheriff's Office

launched a Web site where one could search for registered sex
offenders in their area, and The New York Times recently reported
that various agencies are using the popular website Craigslist.org in
order to weed out individuals soliciting sex.
All of the fear caused by the aforementioned have acted as a

catalyst for "Dateline" NBC to capitalize on the situation and you
have to question the motives of the show's investigations.

The fact that the program makes no attempt to conceal the identity
of these men but rather aims to humiliate them from multiple
camera angles once the sting is revealed, proving that host Chris
Hansen and his team are more concerned with powerful television
than a legitimate investigation.
It is a given that television is ultimately about ratings, and thus,

profit.
It is a business, and this is understandable. But there are some

things that should be kept from being turned into cheap
entertainment, and this is one of them.
In no situation is it all right for the media to nationally crucify an

innocent person.
How can I call these "perverts" innocent?
Because at the time of the airing of the show they have not been
convicted in a court of law. Every human being under the U.S. legal
system is innocent until that occurs.
Once we start making exceptions to this rule, we will end up back in

the days of the Salem witch trials.
There is also the issue of entrapment, which is the legal defense

that a suspect was incited to commit a crime by law enforcement.
In some of the investigations, it is the decoy who mentions sex

first, or otherwise hints, such as by saying that they will be home
alone, to imply that a visit should be in order.
In addition to the moral boundaries possibly violated by NBC,

officials who participate with the show may be shooting themselves
in the foot when it comes to protecting children.
According to WFAA, a news affiliate based in Texas near where one

episode was based, the district attorney will not even prosecute the
23 men arrested on the show due to concerns over whether the
arrests were even legal due to them being orchestrated by private
companies who are earning a profit from the operations.
NBC may want you to think that they are doing a public service by
exposing these criminals but they are really only humiliating the
potentially innocent, and possibly sending actual threats back onto
the street because their shoddy work can't even get a conviction.
The most important lesson here is do not buy into the paranoia sold
to you without investigating for yourself.
The media is an expert at taking advantage of insecurities and they

will continue to do so as long as there is a buck to be had.
Every situation, no matter how straightforward it may seem, leaves

room for intellectual discourse and shows like Hansen's aims to

undermine this through sensationalism.
FIU students are above this cognitive level and should be able to
tackle social problems through logic and reason rather than fear-
mongering propaganda.
__________________
guys are."

their people."
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09-22-2007 09:22 AM

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COPWATCH.com Forum - Prosecutors seek OK to create phony files
Prosecutors seek OK to create phony files
Author Thread
Navigatr1 Prosecutors seek OK to create phony files

Extended Sabatical
Posted on Thu, Feb. 15, 2007
COURTS
Registered: Jul 2003 Prosecutors seek OK to create phony files
Location: Prosecutors are urging a change in state law to allow them to falsify
Posts: 31403 court records in some cases.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/16701053.htm
By DAN CHRISTENSEN AND PATRICK DANNER

dchristensen@MiamiHerald.com
Florida's prosecutors are floating a proposal to the Legislature to

give them the power to secretly falsify public court records -- with a
judge's approval -- for undercover law enforcement purposes.

Spurred by Miami-Dade State Attorney Katherine Fernández

Rundle, the draft bill would limit the authority to manufacture and
plant fake documents in court files to 180 days. But it also provides
for an unlimited number of 30-day extensions.
''Judges would be very involved in the monitoring. It all has to go

through a judge,'' said Arthur I. ''Buddy'' Jacobs, general counsel
for the Florida Prosecuting Attorneys Association, which supports
the bill.
The American Civil Liberties Union of Florida opposes the idea.
''The fundamental problem is that it so goes against our notion of

the way our justice system ought to work,'' said ACLU legislative
director Randall Marshall. ``How would we ever be able to trust
anything in the judicial record knowing that something could be
intentionally falsified with a judicial seal of approval?''
Tallahassee Public Defender Nancy Daniels said the proposal

undermines constitutional protections for those charged with crimes.
''Even if this is temporary, what if someone testifies during that

time and we never get to know they had a criminal conviction? We
can't properly cross-examine to develop their motives for giving
testimony,'' Daniels said.
The bill has been prefiled with the Florida Senate for the legislative
session that begins March 6.
A second, longer version of the bill has been prefiled with the
House. It would convey authority to falsify any public record to
prosecutors, judges, mayors, sheriffs, coroners and other public
officers unless they were acting corruptly.
The Miami Herald reported late last year how judges and
prosecutors in Miami-Dade had official court records altered and
kept secret dockets to disguise what was happening in some court
cases.
Two cases were uncovered in which court dockets were altered to

cover up the felony convictions of informants, but more are known
to exist. Chief Assistant State Attorney Jose Arrojo said authorities
have altered the public records of informants for two decades.
It is a crime for anyone in Florida, including judges and prosecutors,

to alter or falsify court records or proceedings. Violators can be sent
to prison for a year.
STATE INQUIRY
The prosecutors' push to change Florida criminal statute 839.13

comes amid a statewide inquiry by Supreme Court Chief Justice R.
Fred Lewis into the improper hiding of court records. The probe
began last summer after The Miami Herald reported that hundreds

of civil and criminal cases, mostly in Broward County, were kept

hidden on secret dockets.
More recently, Lewis asked the Florida Bar to examine the propriety
of falsifying court records and to recommend rule changes by March
1. The high court is scheduled to hear oral arguments on secret and
false dockets March 5.
Rundle sent a letter to the chief justice in December defending the

practice of altering public court records as occasionally necessary to
protect informants and investigations. She also announced that
Miami-Dade judges and prosecutors would no longer ''affirmatively''
falsify dockets.
In response, the Florida Public Defenders Association has asked that

the practice be banned.
Ed Griffith, a spokesman for the Miami-Dade State Attorney's

Office, said the bill is a priority for the prosecutors' association, but
declined to comment further.
The Senate sponsor is Dave Aronberg, D-Greenacres, vice chairman

of the criminal justice committee. The House sponsor is Rep. Julio
Robaina, R-South Miami.
''Ultimately, this protects the public against the evil of corruption,''

Aronberg said. `Ìt's just another tool. How else can you get at a
corrupt judge unless you create false pleadings?''
TWO SCENARIOS
In an e-mail to Aronberg's office, Ted Mannelli, executive director to

the state attorney, wrote that prosecutors have used the technique
in ``two scenarios.''
''In a very, very, very limited number of cases, perhaps less than
five over the last two and one half decades in our circuit, bogus
court records have been generated in corruption investigations
targeting judges,'' Mannelli wrote.
The other scenario Mannelli described involves any case in which

defendants plead guilty and sentencing is deferred to let informants
work undercover.
Mannelli did not say how many times that has happened.
He wrote in the e-mail and confirmed in a phone interview that

prosecutors believe Florida's prohibition on altering court records
doesn't apply to them because they have acted ``without corrupt
intent.''
The law, however, makes no such distinction. The Florida Supreme

Court also has ruled that a lack of corrupt intent does not excuse
the faking of court records.

1997 CASE
Broward County Judge Laran Johnson backdated records in an

apparent attempt to keep her caseload low. In 1997, the court
removed her from office because ``her knowing and repeated acts
of falsifying public records strike at the very heart of judicial
integrity.''
Today, prosecutors want the law changed to make sure ''these

procedures are clearly legal and allow for their continuation,''
Mannelli said in the email.
__________________
guys are."

their people."
13, 1787
02-23-2007 11:25 AM
Navigatr1 Totally outrageous. Prosecutors falsifying court records goes against

Extended Sabatical everything the our courts stands for. The court system is supposed
to be for finding the truth, not planting false records. Maybe
someone ought to plant a false record on one of these prosecutors
who want this to become law. Let those prosecutors spend time in
Registered: Jul 2003 prison for a probation violation due to a false record about some
Location: crime they committed. I could see the whole justice system being
Posts: 31403 perverted by false records, and people falsely incarcerated as a
result of those false records.
--Navigatr1
__________________
guys are."


their people."
13, 1787
02-23-2007 11:30 AM
James Young The result of this would be that they could gain control of a citizen
Moderator for a prior violation created by judicial fiat without ever having to
arrest and convict that citizen of the original crime, say drug
Registered: Aug 2005 possession or disorderly conduct or any of the myriad offenses
Location: Austin, TX available to initiate control.
Posts: 280
As has been noted, the judical system's purpose is to ascertain the
truth. To assault the truth in order to assault the citizen is
repugnant.
__________________
Freedom is dangerous. You can either accept the risks that come
with it or eventually lose it all step-by-step. Each step will be
justified by its proponents as a minor inconvenience that will help
make us all 'safer.' Personally, I'd rather have a slightly more
dangerous world that respects freedom more. -- The Speed Criminal
02-23-2007 11:57 AM
liberranter Given our inexorable slide toward dictatorship, I predict that

Super Moderator this request will be granted and not a single word of it
mentioned by the State-worshipping, entertainment-obsessed
lapdog MSM.
__________________
Thomas Jefferson

Location: Tucson, AZ "And this brings us to a point that has to be driven home with
Posts: 5865 the pitiless force of a jackhammer: It is the guilty, collusive
Grigg


02-23-2007 12:02 PM
liberranter Here's an op-ed piece from today's LRC related directly to this:
Super Moderator
http://www.lewrockwell.com/floyd/floyd61.html
Bearing False Witness: A New Tool for Authoritarians
by Chris Floyd
February 23, 2007
Florida Bill Would Make It Legal To Falsify Court Records (Winter

Patriot)(http://winterpatriot.blogspot.com/2...t-legal-to.html)
Location: Tucson, AZ Our friend and colleague Winter Patriot unearths a disturbing
Posts: 5865 new innovation in law enforcement now being pushed down in
JebWorld: giving public officials the authority to create phony
documents and plant them in public record. This includes court
documents and other official papers, all created out of whole
cloth in "covert ops" kept secret from other agencies and from –
surely it goes without saying – that worthless gaggle of teeming
rabble known as "the people."
This astounding proposal – in a bill now being dangled like so

much dripping red meat before the rightwing Florida legislature,
ever ready to embrace any authoritarian notion that comes
along, including "shoot to kill if you're feeling paranoid" laws –
would "convey authority to falsify any public record to
prosecutors, judges, mayors, sheriffs, coroners and other public
officers," the Miami Herald reports.
Now, if you read a story like this about, say, Iran or China or
Venezuela or Zimbabwe, you would probably exclaim, "My god!
They're trying to construct a police state! Give government the
power to falsify documents, and they will be able to rig up a
case against anyone they please – false confessions, false
witness statements, false previous convictions, the works! No
matter what excuse is offered for such draconian authority, the
risk of its wanton abuse is far too great for any government that
pretends to popular legitimacy. Only a tyrant, or a would-be
tyrant – or a bunch of authoritarian bootlickers – would ever
call for such a law!"
And you would be right. But of course, it's OK to give this

authority to politicos and prosecutors in America, because we
are descended directly from the angels in heaven – unlike all

those other mud people around the world with their greed,
ambition, spite, jealousy, lust, fear, extremism and other
pathetic human failings that could tempt them to abuse such
powers. Right?
Really, this kind of thing not only boggles the mind – it beggars
the imagination of even the most cynical observer of the
virulent authoritarianism that is now coursing through the
natural gates and alleys of our body politic, covering the
Republic, most lazar-like, with vile and loathsome crust. Is
there no encroachment of liberty that these people won't
countenance?
They now want to use the ordinary court and police services of
our communities to run clandestine operations against our own
population. ("But only against criminals and terrorists!" they
say. Yes, and Stalin's security organs only targeted "criminals
and terrorists," too, just like the Gestapo. It's the age-old
argument of the apologists for power: "If you are innocent, you
have nothing to fear.") This move would also, in true Bushist
fashion, call into the question the validity of any public record.
As the ACLU's Randall Marshall puts it: "How would we ever be
able to trust anything in the judicial record knowing that
something could be intentionally falsified with a judicial seal of
approval?"
How indeed? But then, such confusion is precisely the point.

Those who seek to further their agendas through crime and
covert operations are well-served by covering reality with
squiddish murk. If there is no way of discerning the real truth, if
all official records (and scientific findings and first-hand
reporting and expert analysis, etc., etc.) are "tainted" somehow
by an ineradicable ambiguity, then the depredations of the
criminals and covertniks can never be nailed down.
The prisons of the America are already filled with people jailed
on manufactured and manipulated evidence, false testimony,
strong-armed confessions and other hugger-mugger by officials.
Are we now to give legal sanction to these rogue practices?
Well, why not? After all, in JebWorld, in GeorgeWorld – just as
in AdolfWorld and JosefWorld – "If you are innocent, you have
nothing to fear." Right? Right?
Chris Floyd is the author of Empire Burlesque: The Secret

History of the Bush Regime.
__________________
Thomas Jefferson


Grigg
02-23-2007 12:46 PM
James Young What is to prevent the construction of a warrant for unspecified or

Moderator 'sealed' offenses that would be used against those who question the
legitimacy of those who govern?
Location: Austin, TX Don't like those that are questioning your policies such as the War
Posts: 280 in Iraq? A warrant could be executed and the person named to just
disappear, rather like the "detainees" in the War on Terror.
Wait a minute. . .uh, I thought I just hear George Orwell calling

out. Or maybe it was Kafka.
__________________
Freedom is dangerous. You can either accept the risks that come
with it or eventually lose it all step-by-step. Each step will be
justified by its proponents as a minor inconvenience that will help
make us all 'safer.' Personally, I'd rather have a slightly more
dangerous world that respects freedom more. -- The Speed Criminal
02-23-2007 05:41 PM


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COPWATCH.com Forum - 8-Year-Old Charged For Sexual Conduct With Sitter
COPWATCH.com Forum > NEWS SECTION > News: PERVERTED JUSTICE > 8-Year-
Old Charged For Sexual Conduct With Sitter
Author Thread
Navigatr1 8-Year-Old Charged For Sexual Conduct With Sitter

Extended Sabatical
Jul 28, 2005 10:38 pm US/Mountain

8-Year-Old Charged For Sexual Conduct With Sitter
http://kutv.com/topstories/local_story_210004013.html
Location: Video:
Posts: 31403
http://www.kutv.com/video/?id=6900@kutv.dayport.com
(KUTV) SALT LAKE CITY, Utah A mother is upset after a 14-year-old

babysitter engaged in sexual conduct with her eight-year-old boy,
and the eight-year-old was charged with lewd conduct.
Prosecutors have since dropped the charges against the boy, but
his mother is still concerned.

The sexual conduct occurred during a game of “truth or dare” while

the boy was being watched by the babysitter.
Prosecutors say that, while the babysitter initiated the contact, the
young boy was a willing participant.
“She dared my son to touch her breasts,” says Michelle Grosbeck,

the boy’s mother.
After hiring the teenager to baby sit, Grosbeck got the feeling
something was wrong.
“It was just that sense that something wasn’t quite right with this
14-year-old girl,” she said. She asked her son what had happened.
“He just came right out as if nothing was awry, and just started
talking about what had happened.”
Grosbeck went to police and child protection workers, and the case
went to the district attorney, after which her son, age eight, had
been charged with an act of lewdness with a minor.
Grosbeck says the Salt Lake County District Attorney told her both
the child and teenager were equal participants. But Mrs. Grosbeck
didn’t believe that.
“My son is eight, he’s a little boy. He does not have the ability to
participate on the same level as a fourteen-year-old,” she said.
Although the charges against her son were dropped, she is

concerned that the same thing could happen to other victims of
sexual abuse.
“I don’t want parents to be afraid to go to the state agencies that

are supposed to be protecting our children when things like this
happen, out of fear that their children are going to be charged
The district attorney’s office confirmed the charges had been made,
and that they had been dropped. Other than that, they wouldn’t
comment. The Division of Child and Family Services also declined to
comment.
(© MMV, CBS Broadcasting,
__________________
guys are."

their people."

13, 1787
04-20-2006 10:21 PM
Anthony http://www.districtattorney.slco.org/
Senior Member There's an email at the bottom...
Registered: Mar 2005 Last edited by Anthony on 04-21-2006 at 04:49 AM

Location:
Posts: 219
04-21-2006 01:10 AM
GC Marciano Re: 8-Year-Old Charged For Sexual Conduct With Sitter

quote:

the eight-year-old was charged with lewd
conduct
Registered: Jul 2003 Serving and protecting, right?

Posts: 9967 __________________
Court
agents.
04-21-2006 01:28 AM

Libertine Insanity
Junior Member
Of course the ridiculousness of this act is obvious.

Location: Woodstock Nation BUT, that's the puritan, paranoid AmeriKa for ya.
Posts: 19
Laws will never be reasonable until we stop electing these geriatric,
dinosaur conservative evangelical ignorants.
As far as the situation itself, I blame the lack of REAL sex education
in our society as well as the avoidance of reality by our adults today
that children are curious and, whether you acknowledge it or not,
are sexual beings. In other words, they have sexual thoughts and
curiousities by nature.
To educate them and inform them would help them much more
than the ignorant fear-based, abstinence-based horrible failure of a
policy.
Was this 8-year old mentally ******ed? I mean it says he spoke

about touching a girl's breasts as if it normal in front of his
parents?!? When I was 8, I did a lot more than that with a
neighborhood girl who was 12. And I was smart enough to enjoy
the experience and keep it to myself.
What the hell? Has our culture of over-protection ENLONGATED

juvenality?
07-24-2006 06:09 PM
dr pepper I agree with LIbertine to a point, it was probably a normal situation

Senior Member for kids because they do know about sex and to infer that it is ugly
and dirty to them causes problems as well.
Location: Since it was in Salt Lake City, Utah, making me think the people
Posts: 138 were Mormon--well, they are weird people anyway and maybe it
was just a case of wife #2 being a bitch about wife #3's kid.
Yeah, I hate that show with Bill Paxton about the Mormon's.
07-25-2006 05:48 AM

GC Marciano Damn. My babysitter was never that fun.

__________________
Posts: 9967
agents.
07-25-2006 06:11 AM
SJ01 Oh dear. This would mean I've been a perv since I was like 6.
Senior Member

Location:
Posts: 126
07-25-2006 11:25 AM
OldManSenile quote:
Member
Originally posted by Stovepipe_Jam
Registered: Feb 2006 Oh dear. This would mean I've been a perv since I
Location: Missouri was like 6.
Posts: 88
I hear ya Stovepipe_Jam.
I remember a sitter I had out in Idaho. I was almost 10 and she

was 16. My god she was hot, and she tasted................ never mind

on that lol. Lets just say we had fun for a few years. I don't think
I'm to messed up in the head, but you never know....lol.
OMS
07-25-2006 12:38 PM
Libertine
Junior Member
I was humping my pillow at age 4.
Location: Woodstock Nation I had my first fool around experience at age 7.
Posts: 19
I had my first oral sexual experience at age 12.
I had my first sex at age 14.
When I was a kid I fooled around with a lot of girls older than me
and girls my age. I still look to them as positive experiences.
It's funny that NO ONE ever asks them how THEY feel. They always
want to project guilt and "sin" on them.
We aren't talking adults and kids here. We're talking KIDS and
KIDS.
It's just insane. Kids are GOING to do these things.
Remember: I'll show you mine if you show me yours? What ever
happened to that? Is it now a matter of the State legislators?
07-25-2006 12:56 PM
OldManSenile quote:
Member
Remember: I'll show you mine if you show me yours?
Registered: Feb 2006 What ever happened to that? Is it now a matter of the
Location: Missouri State legislators?
Posts: 88
Don't get me wrong. I think its asinine that it happened. Like you
said, show me yours and I'll show you mine.
Thats how my generation grew up. Yeah sure we had the

occassional talk from mom and dad, but the learning was strictly
us. And good learning it was.

07-25-2006 02:23 PM
Navigatr1 We have took the sexual abuse laws too far in this country, but not
Extended Sabatical far enough where cops are concerned. Utah, Wisconsin, and
Michigan have all prosecuted 14 and 15 year olds for having
consenual sex with each other. However cops usually recieve a slap
on the wrist while we prosecute teenagers as sex offenders for
Registered: Jul 2003 having consentual sex. The prosecutors look at how the law was
Location: written when prosecuting teenage consentual sex cases. Technically
Posts: 31403 each teenager is guilty of statutory rape of each other, so they get
prosecuted as a sex offender even though the law was intended to
go after much much older adults having sex with kids. In some
states 18 or 19 year old boyfriends have been and are prosecuted
for having consentual sex with their 16 or 17 year old girlfriends.
In the 1970's we had this great sexual revolution, and now have
turned into puritans trying to protect the children with knee jerk
feel good legislation that does nothing to protect the children.
Kanka, Lundsford, and whetterling (sp?) have all become political
fodder for the politicians to get re-elected. Most of the knee jerk
laws are already backfiring, and they continue to pass more knee
jerk laws in an attempt to fix bad legislation.
Maybe it will take more kids having consentual sex with each other
being prosecuted as sex offenders in order for this madness to stop.
--Navigatr1
__________________
guys are."

their people."
13, 1787
07-26-2006 12:09 PM

liberranter quote:
Super Moderator
Maybe it will take more kids having
consentual sex with each other being
prosecuted as sex offenders in order for this
madness to stop.
If we lived in a universe governed by logical human behavior,

Location: Tucson, AZ particularly in the political sphere, that would definitely be the
Posts: 5865 case. Unfortunately, we all know how the real world works.
__________________
Thomas Jefferson

Grigg
07-26-2006 07:33 PM


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COPWATCH.com Forum - Anti-2nd Amendment prosecutor murdered: FBI freaks out
COPWATCH.com Forum > NEWS SECTION > News: PERVERTED JUSTICE > Anti-2nd
Amendment prosecutor murdered: FBI freaks out
Author Thread
Mack Anti-2nd Amendment prosecutor murdered: FBI freaks out

Assistant Moderator
Could mystery letter solve case of slain prosecutor?

By Steve Miletich http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ht..._letter16m.
html
More than four years after the fatal shooting of Seattle federal
prosecutor Thomas Wales, the FBI has received an anonymous
letter in which the writer claims he was hired to kill Wales.
Location:
Posts: 5215
The letter was mailed Jan. 23 from Las Vegas to the Seattle office
of the FBI, which is investigating the unsolved slaying. Wales, 49,
was killed in his Queen Anne home on Oct. 11, 2001, by an
assailant in his back yard.
If Wales was killed because of his work, he would be the first

federal prosecutor in U.S. history to be slain in the line of duty.
The letter writer purports to be a hit man hired by a woman and

possibly others to carry out the killing. No motive for the act is
given in the letter released by the FBI.
FBI officials said they doubt the author's claims, noting the one-
page, typewritten letter was written in the style of a detective
novel, contains unrealistic information and provides no details
known only to the killer and investigators.
But based on similar contacts in other investigations, along with the

letter's sudden appearance so long after the shooting, FBI
behavioral experts have concluded the writer likely is connected to
Wales' killing.
One possibility is that Wales' true killer might have concocted the
hit-man story to create a diversion, according to the experts.
"It is one of the avenues" the FBI is pursuing, said James

Fitzgerald, a supervisory agent and behavioral expert with the FBI's
National Center for the Analysis of Violent Crime in Quantico, Va.
Copies of the letter and the envelope were provided to The Seattle
Times by the FBI, which is asking for the public's help in providing
any information that would help identify the writer.
The envelope bears an unusual name in the return address:

"Gidget." The name "Gidget" has long been associated with a
teenage female character in a popular 1959 film by that title, as
well as a 1960s television series of the same name.
Gidget is likely a name the author has used in conversations,

Fitzgerald said. "It's significant to the author, for one reason or
another," Fitzgerald said.
The return address is listed as "2400 W. Charleston" in Las Vegas, a

strip mall on a busy boulevard. The address doesn't appear to be
significant, FBI officials said. But, coincidentally, the FBI office in
Las Vegas is located at 700 E. Charleston, along the same
boulevard.
The trail in Las Vegas
Agents haven't been able to find the mail carrier in Las Vegas who
picked up the letter. They know only that it came from Las Vegas.
But disclosure of the envelope — handwritten in a distinctive style
— might jog the memory of a carrier, the FBI said.
Since January, the FBI has studied the letter while conducting tests
to lift fingerprints and DNA from the envelope and letter. But
nothing has been found yet, the FBI said. Two stamps on the
envelope were self-adhesive, and the envelope could have been
sealed with a sponge.

Handwriting experts are also analyzing the letter.
Fitzgerald said the penmanship on the envelope or the author's

writing style might be recognizable to someone who reads it.
The writer asserts he was broke and between jobs when he

received an anonymous call from a woman offering him money to
shoot someone he didn't know.
The woman provided him an address and gun, the writer says.
"I drove to the address, and then parked some distance away,
north of downtown," the letter reads. "I kind of camped out in the
backyard of this house, and waited for the guy to settle in at his
computer. Once he was there, I took careful aim. I shot two or
possibly more times, and watched him collapse."
The writer says he retraced his steps, dropped off the gun,
retrieved his money and returned to Las Vegas.
The letter is the latest in a string of intriguing but frustrating

developments in the case, which has been given top priority by the
FBI.
The bureau has designated the Wales killing a "major case file," on
par with the decades-long investigation that eventually led to the
capture of the Unabomber in 1995.
Publication in two newspapers of an anonymous anti-technology

manifesto written by the bomber led to his arrest. The bomber's
brother recognized the treatise as the work of his sibling, Ted
Kaczynski. Kaczynski, who killed three people and injured 23 others
between 1978 and 1995, was sentenced to life in prison.
Wales worked as a prosecutor in the U.S. Attorney's Office in

Seattle for 18 years, mostly handling white-collar crimes. He was
killed about 10:40 p.m., when he was struck by several shots fired
from the backyard through a basement window.
Pattern seen
Wales, the divorced father of two grown children, was alone in the
house, sitting at his computer. Neighbors heard the shots, and one
of them saw a shadowy figure walk quickly to a car.
The letter fits a pattern seen in dozens of anonymous or fake-name

letters received by investigators and the news media in high-profile
criminal cases over the years, said Fitzgerald, the FBI behavioral
expert.
The FBI has given the pattern a name: "Post Offense Manipulation
of Investigation Communications," or POMIC.
The writer is often the person who committed the crime or someone
who knows about it, Fitzgerald said. The writer tries to make the

crime seem like a random act, pointing to a contract killer or a

mentally ill person to throw off investigators or create a potential
defense issue if the case goes to trial, Fitzgerald said.
In the Wales case, the scenario in the letter is unrealistic because

the supposed hit man is easily contacted by a woman he doesn't
know, which would normally make a paid killer suspicious of an
undercover police operation, said Shawn VanSlyke, a supervisory
agent and behavioral expert at the FBI analysis center. It's also
unlikely a hit man would pay his own travel expenses and wait to
be paid after the killing, VanSlyke said
Still, the author is likely connected to Wales' slaying because

someone unattached to the killing probably wouldn't write such an
elaborate letter so long after the crime, VanSlyke said.
The letter mentions a sum paid for the killing. In the copy provided
to The Times, the FBI replaced the dollar amount with x's, holding
back that detail because only the writer would be able to verify the
amount if questioned. One line of the letter was omitted for the
same reason, the FBI said.
The FBI said it has not linked the letter to any suspect.
Agents have long focused on a Bellevue airline pilot as a prime

suspect, believing he was furious at Wales for prosecuting him in a
fraud case. The pilot — whom The Times is not naming because he
hasn't been charged — attended a movie in downtown Seattle the
evening Wales was killed, leaving the theater about an hour before
the shooting.
Court papers filed by a special prosecutor in the case have tied the
pilot to a grand-jury investigation, outlining escalating conflicts
between Wales and the pilot before Wales was killed.
But despite twice searching the pilot's home, conducting a massive

hunt for a unique gun barrel used in the killing, and calling the
pilot's associates before the grand jury, the FBI has been unable to
develop enough evidence to make an arrest.
The pilot couldn't be reached for comment on the letter, but a

lawyer who represented him in other matters dismissed its
significance.
"I've lost all faith in them as an investigative agency," said Seattle

attorney Larry Setchell, referring to the FBI. "I wouldn't be
surprised if they wrote [the letter] themselves."
Setchell declined further comment and said he doesn't represent

the pilot in the Wales investigation.
The pilot has previously complained to others that the FBI has
unfairly focused on him because it needs a suspect.
Wales had brought felony charges against the pilot and others in a

fraud case, accusing them of improperly altering a military

helicopter to make it look like a civilian model they could sell.
The charges against the individuals were dropped in July 2001, but
the helicopter-rebuilding business pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor
and paid a fine.
Shortly after, the pilot brought a wrongful-prosecution action

against the government, seeking $125,000 in legal fees. The pilot's
suit, which continued to be heard after Wales was killed three
months later, was ultimately dismissed by a federal judge.
Wales' work as a prominent gun-safety activist — he was

president of an organization called Washington CeaseFire —
also drew the ire of the pilot, who is a gun enthusiast, according
to law-enforcement officials.
Wales' work with the organization also could have provided

a motive for someone other than the pilot.
__________________
misconduct
generally."

misconduct.
04-16-2006 08:49 PM
Mack Looks like this group of gun-grabbers, (the dead prosecutor was
Assistant Moderator evidently a leading member), wants to prohibit ownership of certain
kinds of guns, and require all gun purchasers to be tracked by the
government.
Is it any wonder that they're hated by red-blooded Americans?
http://www.washingtonceasefire.org/index.php
Registered: Jul 2003 quote:

Location:
Posts: 5215 "Washington CeaseFire has lobbied the State
Legislature for the past 5 years to require background
checks at gun shows, calling it their number one
legislative priority. Currently, thousands of firearms are

sold at gun shows in Washington State with no

questions asked and no background checks required. "
quote:
Seattle, WA – In its ongoing attempts to close the

gunshow loophole here in Washington State,
Washington Ceasefire has repeatedly made the point
that gunshows allow terrorists ready access to assault
weapon and powerful 50 caliber rifles. The latter
weapons are capable of stopping tanks or shooting
down a plane from over a mile away.
quote:
Gun shows provide an open invitation for terrorists. On

almost any given weekend in this State, there are gun
shows where semi-automatic assault weapons and 50
caliber anti-armor sniper rifles are sold without any
background check at the point of purchase or any
record keeping. A Washington Ceasefire backed bill that
would have closed the gun show loophole recently
came up for vote in the State Senate Judiciary
Committee and failed by a 5-3 margin with one
abstaining despite being aggressively supported by two
state wide law enforcement organizations.
__________________
misconduct
generally."

misconduct.
04-16-2006 08:57 PM

liberranter I wouldn't be surprised if the letter is a plant by the very same

Super Moderator gun-grabbing group this guy worked for. Of course the feds will
use it as a pretext to further crack down on defenders of the
2nd Amendment, even knowing the letter's bogus nature. And
of course, we can't count on the press to highlight that fact to
the gullible masses who still get all of their news from the
agenda-laden MSM.
__________________
Registered: Jun 2005 Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 5865 "Oink If You Hate Freedom"

Grigg
04-16-2006 10:02 PM
Mack Interesting point.

Assistant Moderator
The Feds priorities are clear: kill a prosecutor, and whole apparatus
of government will be brought to bear until you are caught- no
matter how long it takes or how much it costs. Can't have the
populace get the idea that this kind of thing can be gotten away
with.
Never mind the danger from terrorists, which in all other

Registered: Jul 2003 circumstances is positioned as being the most urgent threat around.
Location: Compared to the death of a single prosecutor, terrorism fades into
Posts: 5215 insignificance.
Per the feds, it's far better to let the terrorists cross the border,
plan their attacks, and kill thousands of civilians than to let the
death of a single government apparatchik go unpunished.
Who cares if the resources expended are vastly disproportionate to

the benefit received (it's surely safe to say that whoever offed this
anti-constitutional prosecutor is not likely to engage in mass
murder, unlike terrorists).
In fact, the killer will probably never kill anyone ever again- yet the

FBI thinks it's more important to catch him than to secure the
border and apprehend foreign terrorists.
__________________
misconduct
generally."

misconduct.
04-16-2006 10:25 PM
GC Marciano It appears that a citizen decided to do his part in rising up

Copwatcher Extraordinaire against an oppressive government.
Thomas Wales was president of a group that fights to infringe

upon what our Constitution describes as a right that shall not be
infringed upon and as a result he paid the ultimate price;
undoubtedly at the hands of somebody who does not appreciate
his rights being stolen by anti-constitutional gun grabbers such
a Mr. Wales.
Registered: Jul 2003 While stopping short of publicly condoning this murder, the only
Location: Chicago, Illinois sympathy I feel in this specific situation is for his family
Posts: 9967
members and the loss of their loved one.
__________________
Court
agents.

04-17-2006 12:57 AM
Mack Well said.

Assistant Moderator
I also feel some sympathy for the poor guy who the feds are
persecuting.
The situation reminds me of the guy who was interminably

investigated for the anthrax mailings.
In both cases, it seems that the feds have no evidence, but they
drag the suspect through the mud anyway.
Location:
Posts: 5215 __________________
misconduct
generally."

misconduct.
04-17-2006 01:25 AM
Navigatr1 FBI Receives Letter Linked To Prosecutor's Murder

Extended Sabatical
FBI Receives Letter Linked To Prosecutor's Murder

http://www.komotv.com/stories/42968.htm
Registered: Jul 2003 April 16, 2006

Location:
Posts: 31403 By KOMO Staff & News Services
SEATTLE - The FBI has received an anonymous letter from someone

claiming he was hired to kill Seattle federal prosecutor Thomas
Wales four and a half years ago.
The letter was mailed Jan. 23 from Las Vegas to the Seattle office
of the FBI, which is investigating the unsolved slaying.
The FBI provided copies of the letter and the envelope to The
Seattle Times, asking for the public's help in providing any
information that would help identify the writer.
Wales, 49, was killed in his Queen Anne home on Oct. 11, 2001,

when he was struck by several shots fired from the backyard

through a basement window.
FBI officials told The Times they doubt the author's claims, saying it
reads like a detective novel, contains unrealistic information and
provides no details known only to the killer and investigators.
But because of similar contacts in other investigations, and the

letter's sudden appearance so long after the shooting, FBI
behavioral experts have concluded the writer likely is connected to
Wales' killing.
The letter writer purports to be a hit man hired by a woman and

possibly others to carry out the killing. No motive for the act is
given in the letter released by the FBI.
Agents have studied the letter since January. The FBI has
conducted tests to lift fingerprints and DNA from the envelope and
letter, but has turned up nothing.
The envelope bears an unusual name in the return address:

"Gidget." It's likely a name the author has used in conversations,
said James Fitzgerald, a supervisory agent and behavioral expert
with the FBI's National Center for the Analysis of Violent Crime in
Quantico, Va. "It's significant to the author, for one reason or
another."
The return address is listed as "2400 W. Charleston" in Las Vegas,

which is a strip mall on a busy boulevard. FBI officials said the
address doesn't appear to be significant.
Agents have not been able to find the mail carrier in Las Vegas who
picked up the letter. They believe the distinctive handwriting on the
envelope might jog the memory of a carrier.
The letter writer asserts he was broke and between jobs when he
received an anonymous call from a woman offering him money to
shoot someone he didn't know. The woman provided him an
address and gun, the writer claimed.
"I drove to the address, and then parked some distance away,
north of downtown," the letter reads. "I kind of camped out in the
backyard of this house, and waited for the guy to settle in at his
computer. Once he was there, I took careful aim. I shot two or
possibly more times, and watched him collapse."
The writer said he retraced his steps, dropped off the gun, retrieved
his money and returned to Las Vegas.
Wales worked as a prosecutor in the U.S. Attorney's Office in

Seattle for 18 years, mostly handling white-collar crimes. A
divorced father of two grown children, he was alone in the house,
sitting at his computer when he was shot. Neighbors heard the
shots, and one of them saw a shadowy figure walk quickly to a car.

The letter fits a pattern seen in dozens of anonymous or fake-name

letters received by investigators and the news media in high-profile
criminal cases over the years, Fitzgerald said.
In the Wales case, the scenario in the letter is unrealistic because

the supposed hit man is easily contacted by a woman he doesn't
know, which would normally make a paid killer suspicious of an
undercover police operation, said Shawn VanSlyke, a supervisory
agent and behavioral expert at the FBI analysis center.
It's also unlikely a hit man would pay his own travel expenses and
wait to be paid after the killing, VanSlyke said.
Still, VanSlyke surmised that the author is likely connected to

Wales' slaying because someone unattached to the killing probably
wouldn't write such an elaborate letter so long after the crime.
The letter mentions a sum paid for the killing. In the copy provided
to The Times, the FBI replaced the dollar amount with x's, holding
back that detail because only the writer would be able to verify the
amount if questioned. One line of the letter was omitted for the
same reason.
The FBI said it has not linked the letter to any suspect.
Agents have long focused on a Bellevue airline pilot as a prime

suspect, believing he was furious at Wales for prosecuting him in a
fraud case. Court papers filed by a special prosecutor in the case
have tied the pilot to a grand jury investigation, outlining escalating
conflicts between Wales and the pilot before Wales was killed.
But the FBI has been unable to develop enough evidence to make
an arrest.
The FBI has offered a $1 million reward for information that helps
solve the case.
Anyone with information about the letter or the author's identity is

asked to contact the FBI toll-free at 866-322-7009 or write to: FBI,
1110 Third Ave., Seattle, WA 98101.
Text Of The Letter
Re: Thomas C Wales
OK, so I was broke and between jobs I got an anonymous call

offering $xxxx to shoot the guy, so I drove to Seattle to do
the job. I did not even know his name. Just got laid off from a
job. Nice talking lady, I didn't know her name, she called me,
talked to me by name, and asked if I needed some money. I
agreed to pursue the matter, hell, I was going bankrupt.
Go to Seattle, heck I lived there once, no big deal. Hang out

in this guy's backyard, she even gave me the address. Stop

off at a place, pick up our gun, and drop it off at a specified
location when you are done. THEN, you will be directed to
where your money is.
The wife was out of town, I had no witnesses here, I was

curious about who knew me so well. I used cash to pay for all
my expenses to avoid an audit trail. No cell phone. I was
directed to a place to pick up the gun, they wanted me to
use, and an address. The gun was there.
I drove to the address, and then parked some distance away,

north of downtown. I kind of camped out in the backyard of
this house, and waited for the guy to settle in at his
computer. Once he was there, I took careful aim. I shot two
or possibly more times, and watched him collapse. I absurdly
waited a few minutes and then left. I was sure he was dead.
Retracing my steps, I dropped off the gun, found my money,

and returned to Vegas. I feel bad about it, but I needed the
money, and there were no witnesses. I really don't know who
fronted the money, but the $xxxx was there, and I sure
needed it.
( A portion of the letter has been omitted to ensure

investigative integrity.)
__________________
guys are."

their people."
13, 1787
04-17-2006 11:37 AM

Mack Tuesday, June 13, 2006 · Last updated 5:43 p.m. PT

Assistant Moderator FBI shakes up management of Wales investigation
By GENE JOHNSON
AP LEGAL AFFAIRS WRITER
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local...utor_Slain.html
SEATTLE -- The FBI has put its Portland, Ore., field office in charge
of investigating the 2001 assassination of Tom Wales, an assistant
U.S. attorney in Seattle, saying it hopes the shakeup will bring a
Registered: Jul 2003 "fresh point of view" to the unsolved case.
Location:
Posts: 5215 Seattle Special Agent in Charge Laura Laughlin had recently
faced criticism for trimming the number of agents assigned
to the case from four to two. That decision was reviewed by
FBI headquarters at the request of a special prosecutor
assigned to the Wales case.
Under the change, Portland Special Agent in Charge Robert Jordan

was named "inspector" for the case and will oversee day-to-day
operations. In a Tuesday night interview from Washington, D.C., he
told The Associated Press he anticipates increasing the number
of people working the case, and that he will meet with the
special prosecutor and the investigative team next Monday in
Seattle.
"I'm going to put any and every resource necessary to work

this case," Jordan said.
As part of the realignment, one analyst with the Seattle office's

Field Intelligence Group has already been assigned to the case,
joining the two remaining agents who will stay on to ensure
continuity, the agency said in a news release.
In 2003, there were eight agents dedicated to finding Wales' killer.
Wales, 49, who mostly handled white-collar crimes, was shot the
night of Oct. 11, 2001, while sitting at his computer in his Queen
Anne neighborhood home. He was hit by several shots fired through
a window.
The only publicly identified suspect in the case is a Bellevue airline

pilot who had feuded in court with Wales. No charges have been
filed. The pilot has not responded to numerous Associated Press
interview requests.
The FBI recently has focused its investigation on an anonymous

letter purportedly written by the shooter. The letter was sent to the
agency from Las Vegas in January; shortly before the letter was
sent, the pilot was in Las Vegas.
Members of the FBI's task force on the case have

interviewed more than 2,500 people and followed more than
3,000 investigative leads through all 50 states and half a
dozen countries, the agency's news release said. The task force

also conducted a nationwide search for replacement barrels for a

Makarov semiautomatic pistol, the weapon used in the killing.
"This is not a cold case," Laughlin said Tuesday in the news release.
"We are adjusting our approach and bringing new energy to an
investigation that has been long and difficult."
__________________
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generally."

misconduct.
06-14-2006 01:02 AM

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COPWATCH.com Forum - Judge Ottinger "censured" for routinely violating the rights of defendants
COPWATCH.com Forum > NEWS SECTION > News: PERVERTED JUSTICE > Judge
Ottinger "censured" for routinely violating the rights of defendants
Author Thread
Mack Judge Ottinger "censured" for routinely violating the rights of defendants
Assistant Moderator
Judicial conduct commission censures King County judge

Jurist routinely violated defendant rights, panel says
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/269273_judge06.html
Saturday, May 6, 2006
The state's Commission on Judicial Conduct has censured a

Registered: Jul 2003 King County District Court judge and recommended that she
Location:
Posts: 5215
be suspended for one month without pay, saying she
routinely violated the rights of defendants.
There was no evidence that the actions of Judge Mary Ann Ottinger
adversely affected the defendants' cases, the commission said in a
14-page ruling, but "the negligence of the judge cannot be

excused." Her actions included failing to advise them of

maximum penalties or of the right to an attorney before they
entered pleas.
The violations continued for years, even after she was first
warned by the commission in 2002. It wasn't until last June,
when the commission filed its complaint, that she made
substantial changes, requiring public defenders to be
present for all arraignments, and since then she has run a
"model courtroom," the commission said.
Censure is the highest punishment the commission can

impose. The commission recommended that the state Supreme
Court suspend her for one month without pay.
Ottinger's lawyers, David Allen and Todd Maybrown, had argued

that her errors amounted to technical slip-ups predicated largely by
a huge caseload. Allen said Friday that Ottinger will not appeal and
will be happy to comply with the commission's requirement that she
speak to other judges about her mistakes, which Allen said occur in
many courtrooms.
"It's a compliment to her they want her to go out and talk to other
judges in the county," he said.
The panel's complaint accused Ottinger, 56 and a district court

judge since 1992, of denying the rights of 12 defendants during the
summer of 2004. One of the 10 commissioners wrote a dissent
saying Ottinger should be removed from the bench.
__________________
misconduct
generally."

misconduct.
05-07-2006 10:13 PM

Mack http://www.metrokc.gov/kcdc/ottinger.htm
Assistant Moderator
quote:
Judge Mary Ann Ottinger has served in the Issaquah

Court since 1992. Prior to her appointment to the
bench, Judge Ottinger practiced law in King County for
nearly nineteen years. She resides in Sammamish and
Registered: Jul 2003 is active in community affairs.
Location:
Posts: 5215 The Issaquah Court serves the cities of North Bend,
Snoqualmie, Sammamish and Issaquah, as well as the
large geographic area running from Bellevue east to
Snoqualmie Pass. This is one of the fastest growing
areas in King County, both in population and commerce.
Judge Ottinger was recognized as "Judge of the Year"

by the Washington State Trial Lawyers Association in
1998, and received a similar award in 1997 from the
statewide organization of probation officers.
Judge Mary Ann Ottinger
Attachment: judge mary ann ottinger.jpg

__________________
misconduct
generally."

misconduct.
05-07-2006 10:14 PM

GC Marciano So after years of violating peoples rights, she gets docked one
Copwatcher Extraordinaire month pay.
How appropriate.
__________________
Court
agents.
05-07-2006 11:30 PM
mr.b Laughable
Senior Member
She should be thrown out off the bench.
__________________
copchaser
proverbs, 21, 21
Posts: 1072
05-08-2006 01:19 PM
Mack Re: Judge Ottinger "censured" for routinely violating the rights of
Assistant Moderator defendants
quote:

The violations continued for years, even after she
was first warned by the commission in 2002. It
wasn't until last June, when the commission filed
Registered: Jul 2003 its complaint, that she made substantial changes,
Location:
Posts: 5215

So she gets away with it for YEARS, even after being told to change
her ways, and still suffers no real repercussions. It's simply
outrageous.
quote:
Censure is the highest punishment the

commission can impose.
How can that be, when the penultimate paragraph states that one
commissioner wanted to remove her from the bench? They can't
have it both ways. Someone is lying here.
quote:
Ottinger will not appeal and will be happy to comply

with the commission's requirement that she speak to
other judges about her mistakes, which Allen said occur
in many courtrooms.
"It's a compliment to her they want her to go out and
talk to other judges in the county," he said.
What a collossal load of BS. She tries to play it off like she's going
to talk to the other judges in an enviroment of mutual admiration
and learning. Like she's doing them a favor by talking to them.
quote:
One of the 10 commissioners wrote a dissent

saying Ottinger should be removed from the
bench.
She should not only be thrown off the bench, she should be
PROSECUTED.
__________________
misconduct
generally."


misconduct.
05-08-2006 04:30 PM
liberranter Re: Judge Ottinger "censured" for routinely violating the rights of
Super Moderator defendants
quote:
There was no evidence that the actions of

Judge Mary Ann Ottinger adversely affected
the defendants' cases, the commission said in
a 14-page ruling, but "the negligence of the
judge cannot be excused." [b]Her actions
Location: Tucson, AZ included failing to advise them of maximum
Posts: 5865 penalties or of the right to an attorney before
they entered pleas.
How on earth can failure to inform defendants of maximum

penalites or their rights to counsel NOT adversely affect their
cases? That's a load of crap! Not only should this woman be
thrown off the bench AND indicted for crimes of judicial
misconduct, but the Washington State Judiciary Committee (or
whatever the equivalent is called) should be investigated for
negligience as well.
__________________
Thomas Jefferson

Grigg

05-15-2006 05:04 AM
Navigatr1 Washington State Commission on Judicial Conduct

Extended Sabatical
Washington State Commission on Judicial Conduct
Here is their website:

Registered: Jul 2003 http://www.cjc.state.wa.us/
Location:
Posts: 31403 --Navigatr1
__________________
guys are."

their people."
13, 1787
05-15-2006 10:59 AM
Navigatr1 In re Mary Ann Ottinger

Extended Sabatical
In re Mary Ann Ottinger

http://www.cjc.state.wa.us/CJC_Acti...ctions_2006.htm
Registered: Jul 2003 CJC No. 4475-F-119

Location: May 5, 2006
Posts: 31403
Commission Decision (723 KB) filed 5/5/2006.
Third Amended Notice of Fact-Finding Hearing (147 KB) filed

1/10/2006.
Second Amended Notice of Fact-Finding Hearing (136 KB) filed

10/11/2005.
First Amended Notice of Fact-Finding Hearing (139 KB) filed

9/26/2005.

Notice of Fact-Finding Hearing (144 KB) filed 9/14/2005.
Answer to Statement of Charges (219 KB) filed 6/30/2005.
Statement of Charges (595 KB) filed 6/14/2005.
__________________
guys are."

their people."
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their people."
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05-15-2006 11:17 AM
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Answer to Statement of Charges (219 KB) filed 6/30/2005.

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guys are."

their people."
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05-15-2006 11:19 AM
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Notice of Fact-Finding Hearing (144 KB) filed 9/14/2005.

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guys are."

their people."
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05-15-2006 11:21 AM
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Extended Sabatical
First Amended Notice of Fact-Finding Hearing (139 KB) filed
9/26/2005.

Registered: Jul 2003 http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html
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guys are."

their people."
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05-15-2006 11:23 AM

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Extended Sabatical
Second Amended Notice of Fact-Finding Hearing (136 KB)
filed 10/11/2005.

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guys are."

their people."
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05-15-2006 11:24 AM
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Extended Sabatical
Third Amended Notice of Fact-Finding Hearing (147 KB) filed
1/10/2006.

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guys are."


their people."
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05-15-2006 11:26 AM
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Extended Sabatical
Commission Decision (723 KB) filed 5/5/2006.

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guys are."

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05-15-2006 11:28 AM

Mack Great finds, Nav.

Assistant Moderator
This case is beyond belief.
Attorneys get disciplined and even disbarred on a regular basis for

conduct which is far less harmful to defendants.
Why should judges like Ottinger be permitted to get away with this
type of crap?
Makes one wonder if the system is salvageable.
Location:
Posts: 5215
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misconduct
generally."

misconduct.
05-15-2006 02:47 PM
Darryl Where is the zero tolarance policy now?

Senior Member
Location:
Posts: 755
05-20-2006 04:21 AM
GC Marciano quote:
Originally posted by Darryl
Where is the zero tolarance policy now?
That only applies to the taxpaying private citizens.
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GC Marciano Your Rights And How To Use Them:

LAW: You have the right to watch the police when they stop
someone.
REALITY: The police get very nervous when people watch their
actions. Like any common criminal, the police prefer their deeds
not come under scrutiny by the public. They may threaten you
with arrest for 'interfering' (Penal Code section 148). Tell them
politely but firmly that you don't want to interfere, but you have
a right to observe. Step back if necessary.
Posts: 9967 LAW: Police must identify themselves to the public. Officers
must wear a nameplate or badge number while on duty (PC
830.10)
REALITY: Those tiny plates are hard to read, and police will
often refuse to give you their name and number. Ask insistently
until you get it. If you are being ticketed, one of the officers'

names will be on the ticket; if you are arrested, most of them

should be in the police report which you can get from your
lawyer or public defender.
LAW: There are three ways you can be stopped by police.

In a casual encounter, the officer has no legal right to talk to
you, but is 'inviting' you to talk. He will, however make you
think you MUST talk.
A detention is when the police have "reasonable suspicion":
specific reasons (not a hunch, not a generalization) to believe
that you committed a specific crime.
Finally, the police can arrest you when they have "probable
cause" to believe you committed a crime. This is more than
reasonable suspicion, but less than complete proof. They don't
need to have a warrant to arrest you.
If you were just a witness to a crime, the police cannot legally
detain you.
REALITY: Stay away from casual encounters.
If an officer starts talking to you, for whatever reason, ask "Am

I free to go?" If yes, don't talk, just leave.
If the Officer say no, then you're being detained. Ask "Can you
explain why your detaining me?" and memorize the exact words
of the officer's response - this could be helpful in court if you
are arrested. If there are any witnesses, repeat the officer's
response "(Oh, so I'm being detained for...?) so they can hear
it. Immediately request an attorney, do not say anything else.
Talking will quickly turn your innocence to guilt.
LAW: You have the right to remain silent.

REALITY: Even if the police don't read you your rights, they
are in effect. People often talk to the cops because they don't
know they don't have to. Although it can be difficult to refuse to
answer any questions, it is the best idea. Tell the police that
you don't have anything to hide, but that you've been told not
to answer any questions without your lawyer present. Don't try
to talk your way out of anything. Even the truth can be
manipulated and used against you, and often is so the police
can make an easy arrest. If you get confused and start talking,
you can stop and assert your right to silence at any time. The
police may tempt you by saying that if you answer a certain
question, they will let you go, but this is just another of the
many lies that the police use to coerce information from people.
They may threaten you, scare you and try to coerce you. These
are common tactics. Keep quiet, demand an attorney.
When you don't answer questions, the police may threaten to

arrest you for refusing to cooperate with their investigation.
This threat is illegal yet widely used.
LAW: You don't have to show ID to the police, although you

must show your drivers license if you're pulled over while
driving.

REALITY: In a casual encounter, don't even give the police

your name - just walk away. If your being detained, you may
want to give your name, but nothing more; the police have a
right to take you in until you've been identified. If you've been
ticketed, you should probably show your ID. If you're being
arrested and taken in, you may have to show ID to be released.
LAW: When the police get your ID, they can run a warrant
check. This basically checks if you have tickets you haven't paid
in a long time, or charges against you which you may not be
aware of. If you have a warrant, they will arrest you.
REALITY: The computer system, or the police, may make a
'mistake' and say you have a warrant when you don't. Keep
copies at home of all your tickets and of the checks you paid
the tickets with.
LAW: If the police arrest you for an infraction (such as

jaywalking or possession of less than an ounce of marijuana),
they should give you a ticket and let you go. You may get a pat
down for weapons, but you should not be searched. If you don't
have ID, the police may take you to the station to "verify your
identity". If you are arrested for a misdemeanor, you may or
may not be taken in. If the police arrest you for a felony, you
will be taken to the station and booked.
REALITY: Whether you are charged with a misdemeanor or a
felony often depends on how the cop feels about you, not on
what you've done or not done. It is common for police to 'over-
book' people by adding on extra charges like resisting arrest or
blocking the sidewalk. This is usually done to satisfy their need
for power and control.
__________________
Court
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05-03-2006 01:36 AM

myjusticequest If cops enter a private home, unannounced, w/out a search or

Member bench warrant, and when no laws are being broken, and they beat
someone up and "arrest" them (by cuffing them and dragging them
away in the "paddy wagon"), but then dump the person at the
hospital E.R. and never take them to the station or book them, etc.,
I believe it's still false arrest, but is it false "imprisonment" if the
person isn't taken to the jail or police station?
Also, if not one gov't employee (like the FBI or the Atty Gen'l or the
US Atty or prosecutor or...), and not one attorney, and the ACLU, if
not one person or firm or entity will defend a person whose civil
rights were violated by cops, then who will? I keep hearing
conflicting stories about who polices the police.
Location: Kailua-Kona, Hawaii
(Big Island) Report this post to a moderator |
Posts: 82
06-21-2006 12:07 PM
ATFOTRAF Re: Your Rights And How To Use Them:

Member
quote:
Registered: Jul 2007 Originally posted by GC505

Location: A detention is when the police have "reasonable
Posts: 90
suspicion": specific reasons (not a hunch, not a
generalization) to believe that you committed a
specific crime.
If you really want to mess with the cops, the actual term is
"reasonable articulable suspicion," which means that they must be
able to speak the reason that they are stopping you. Ask them to
articulate their reasonable articulable suspicion for stopping you.
This usually gives them pause. At the very least, it will reveal that
you are more educated than the average sheep they encounter.
quote:

Stay away from casual encounters.
Yes, yes, yes. Furthermore, don't answer any question, even if they
taunt you with "What do you have to hide?"
The rest of the original post is awesome information!

__________________
No Liability Assumed, No Value Assured, Without Recourse,
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ADVENTURES IN LEGAL LAND should be the bible of COPWATCH!
1. Know who you are

2. Know who has the burden of proof
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Last edited by GC Marciano on 09-29-2007 at 10:52 PM
09-29-2007 10:36 PM
daspooter ok, so how does a "Terry frisk" fall into this? that's when a cop can
Junior Member frisk someone he stops on the street for his own safety with out
reason, other than he wants to.
Posts: 2
12-09-2007 02:22 AM
GC Marciano http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_v._Ohio
__________________
Posts: 9967
agents.
12-09-2007 03:27 AM

Maxima quote:
Moderator
Originally posted by daspooter
ok, so how does a "Terry frisk" fall into this?
that's when a cop can frisk someone he stops on
the street for his own safety with out reason,
other than he wants to.
That's not how it goes, but it's how police think it does. They have
to have some reason to believe you might have a weapon added
Registered: Mar 2007 with a few other points. Everytime I've ever been frisked was 10+
minutes into being detained and is normally when they are just
Posts: 360
grabbing at reasons to arrest me and hoping they will find
something on me, not actually concerned with their safety.
__________________

12-09-2007 05:38 AM
daspooter quote:
Junior Member
Registered: Dec 2007 They have to have some reason to believe you
Location: might have a weapon added with a few other
Posts: 2 points. Everytime I've ever been frisked was 10+
minutes into being detained and is normally when
they are just grabbing at reasons to arrest me
and hoping they will find something on me, not
actually concerned with their safety.
If they've detained you for that long, w/o frisking, what do they say
when they "request" to frisk you?

12-11-2007 11:29 PM
Maxima quote:
Moderator
Originally posted by daspooter
If they've detained you for that long, w/o
frisking, what do they say when they "request" to
frisk you?
When they come to the point of knowing they don't have anything
to charge me with, they say, "Turn around, put your hands on the
car, I'm going to check you for weapons". Sometimes I'll ask if
Registered: Mar 2007 that's all they are looking for. Then when they don't find anything,
they kick me loose.
Posts: 360
__________________

12-12-2007 01:10 AM
mr.b Hey maxima sounds like you have a good 4th amendment claim if
Senior Member they keep that up!!!
__________________
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proverbs, 21, 21

Posts: 1072
12-12-2007 02:32 AM

Maxima quote:
Moderator
Originally posted by mr.b
Hey maxima sounds like you have a good 4th
amendment claim if they keep that up!!!
Yes, one of the many. I'm really not as concerned about the pat
down now as much as I'm worried about what they might plant on
me when they do it. Of course they better smile cause they'll be on
camera.
Posts: 360
__________________

12-12-2007 06:27 AM
Cruise Jacket camera

Member
quote:
Location:
Posts: 66
Yes, one of the many. I'm really not as concerned
about the pat down now as much as I'm worried
about what they might plant on me when they do
it. Of course they better smile cause they'll be on
camera.
Did ya upgrade to something more capable of getting the swine up

close and personal? I did. I got one in my jacket that peeks out in
front of me with sound. It's color too. I can capture 14 hours of
video on a tiny dvr in my pocket.

02-11-2008 11:49 PM
CC Rider Re: Jacket camera

GOT FREE SPEECH?
quote:
Originally posted by Cruise

Registered: Mar 2007 Did ya upgrade to something more capable of
Location: Behind You getting the swine up close and personal? I did. I
Posts: 1060 got one in my jacket that peeks out in front of me
with sound. It's color too. I can capture 14 hours
of video on a tiny dvr in my pocket.
Cruise can you give us model # and manufacture of the unit you
have? I have two vehicles wired for video / audio and my home is
like a control center if they even step foot on my property!
__________________

tragedy.”
02-12-2008 12:03 AM

Cruise No Name
Member
I bought this from one of the spy shops online. It does not give a
Registered: Feb 2008 name brand. I just googled mini dvr and found this system. It is
Location:
Posts: 66 about 3x4 inches and about 3/8 inch thick. The screen is about the
size of the unit.It is amazing. It has a built in camera but it came
with a wireless and wired pinhole cameras. I cut a hole in a
bluejean jacket and use the wired camera with everything in the
inside pocket. The cameras and receiver are made by Ajoka. It has
crystal clear video and sound. I only paid about 500 bucks too.
Awsome! The unit without sd card can hold about 3 hours. I guess
that's enough.
02-12-2008 12:47 AM
CC Rider Re: No Name

GOT FREE SPEECH?
quote:
Originally posted by Cruise

Registered: Mar 2007 I bought this from one of the spy shops online. It
Location: Behind You does not give a name brand. I just googled mini
Posts: 1060 dvr and found this system. It is about 3x4 inches
and about 3/8 inch thick. The screen is about the
size of the unit.It is amazing. It has a built in
camera but it came with a wireless and wired
pinhole cameras. I cut a hole in a bluejean jacket
and use the wired camera with everything in the
inside pocket. The cameras and receiver are made
by Ajoka. It has crystal clear video and sound. I
only paid about 500 bucks too. Awsome! The unit
without sd card can hold about 3 hours. I guess
that's enough.
Thanks Cruise - I will look into this ASAP! That seems a little
expensive but I have not seen the quality so that may be the
reason for the price! I outfitted one vehicle for under $300 and
have coverage front, driver side and back - the audio is awesome!
The other unit was around $400 (I got it first) and it only has
coverage driver’s side and back, but I have found another set up
that will cover 360 degrees that may replace it very soon!
__________________



tragedy.”
02-12-2008 01:29 AM
Cruise They have units that cost over a thousand on the market that i've
Member seen. What I like about this is the portability. I may be walking
down the road away from the car when it is needed. Wherever I
Registered: Feb 2008 am , it is. Come summer, i'll have to figure something else out but
Location: it will still be in the car doing it's job there.
Posts: 66
02-12-2008 02:19 AM
CC Rider I think the reason this unit is a little pricy is that it is High Definition
GOT FREE SPEECH? (HD VIDEO). After looking the units over I am going to get one and
check it out.
I have an email in to the guy that owns the company and wanted to
Registered: Mar 2007 be sure if the range was acceptable for my need of wireless
Location: Behind You transmitting. I will keep everyone updated on the results!
Posts: 1060
This could be fun!
__________________


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02-12-2008 05:10 AM

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COPWATCH.com Forum - Police have no duty to protect the public
COPWATCH.com Forum > BEST OF... > Police have no duty to protect the public
Author Thread
GC Marciano Police have no duty to protect the public

Police are not required to protect:
At the bottom of this post I cite several examples in which that

the courts have ruled that the police have NO OBLIGATION to
protect you, they have NO OBLIGATION to arrest a criminal and
they have NO OBLIGATION to prevent a crime.
So what are our tax dollars paying them to do? ABSOLUTELY

Registered: Jul 2003 NOTHING, other than collect revenue for the state (in addition
Posts: 9967
to the taxes we are forced to pay). While the police are not
required to provide any service to the community or it's
citizens, the taxpayers are required, under threat of
imprisonment, to compensate them by allowing the government
to steal large amounts of their hard-earned money.

The Courts have ruled...
Following are a few examples of how the courts have ruled that
the police are not required to offer any protection to the people:
• Riss v. New York: 22 N.Y.2d 579, 293, N.Y.S.2d 897, 240 N.

E.2d 806 (1958)
The government is not liable even for a grossly negligent failure
to protect a crime victim. In the Riss case, a young woman
telephoned the police and begged for help because her ex-
boyfriend had repeatedly threatened, "If I can't have you no
one else will have you, and when I get through with you, no one
else will want you." The day after she had pleaded for police
protection, the ex-boyfriend threw lye in her face, blinding her
in one eye, severely damaging the other, and permanently
scarring her features. "What makes the City's position
particularly difficult to understand," wrote a dissenting opinion,
"is that, in conformity to the dictates of the law, Linda did not
carry any weapon for self-defense. Thus, by a rather bitter irony
she was reuiqred to rely for protection on the City of New York
which now denies all responsibility to her."
• Hartzler v. City of San Jose, 46 Cal. App. 3d 6 (1st Dist. 1975)

Ruth Brunell called the police on twenty different occasions to
beg for protection from her husband. He was arrested only one
time. One evening Mr. Brunell telephoned his wife and told her
he was coming over to kill her. When she called the police, they
refused her request that they come to protect her. They told
Mrs. Brunell to call back when her husband got there. Mr.
Brunell stabbed his wife to death before she could call the
police. The court held that the San Jose police were not liable
for ignoring Mrs. Brunell's pleas for help.
Here are a few other documented examples:
• Bowers v. DeVito, 686 F.2d 616 (7th Cir. 1982) (no federal
Constitutional requirement that police provide protection)
• Calogrides v. Mobile, 475 So. 2d 560 (Ala. 1985); Cal Govt.

Code 845 (no liability for failure to provide police protection)
• Calogrides v. Mobile, 846 (no liability for failure to arrest or to

retain arrested person in custody)
• Davidson v. Westminster, 32 Cal.3d 197, 185, Cal. Rep. 252;

649 P.2d 894 (1982) (no liability for failure to provide police
protection)
• Stone v. State 106 Cal.App.3d 924, 165 Cal Rep. 339 (1980)
(no liability for failure to provide police protection)
• Morgan v. District of Columbia, 468 A.2d 1306 (D.C.App.

1983) (no liability for failure to provide police protection)

• Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C.App 1981)

• Sapp v. Tallahassee, 348 So.2d 363 (Fla. App. 1st Dist.), cert.
denied 354 So.2d 985 (Fla. 1977); Ill. Rec. Stat. 4-102 (no
liability for failure to provide police protection)
• Keane v. Chicago, 98 Ill. App.2d 460, 240 N.E.2d 321 (1st

Dist. 1968) (no liability for failure to provide police protection)
• Jamison v. Chicago, 48 Ill. App. 3d 567 (1st Dist. 1977) (no

• Simpson's Food Fair v. Evansville, 272 N.E.2d 871 (Ind. App.)

• Silver v. Minneapolis, 170 N.W.2d 206 (Minn. 1969) (no

• Wuetrich V. Delia, 155 N.J. Super. 324, 326, 382, A.2d 929,
930 cert. denied 77 N.J. 486, 391 A.2d 500 (1978) (no liability
for failure to provide police protection)
• Chapman v. Philadelphia, 290 Pa. Super. 281, 434 A.2d 753

(Penn. 1981) (no liability for failure to provide police protection)
• Morris v. Musser, 84 Pa. Cmwth. 170, 478 A.2d 937 (1984)

__________________
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agents.
Last edited by GC Marciano on 04-30-2007 at 12:23 AM
04-17-2006 02:00 AM

Mack Good find, GC.

Assistant Moderator
It always suprises me that people are suprised to learn that the
cops have no duty to protect them, and that they face no liability if
they fail to do so.
__________________
misconduct
Registered: Jul 2003 upholds the law and renders a service not only to himself but the public
Location: generally."
Posts: 5215 Justice Sanders, defending the right to forcibly resist false arrest, State v.

misconduct.
04-17-2006 03:50 AM
liberranter The great-grandfather precedent of all of these cases would

Super Moderator appear to be South v. Maryland (1856), a summary of which
can be found here.
I think it should be crystal clear by now to all but the most

braindead (which unfortuantely includes not only most of
America's "law" enforcement agencies, but its courts AND the
public at large as well) that if such is the case, you CANNOT
enforce the concept of gun control. Otherwise, anarcho-tyranny
is the result, something that I doubt even the masses of
sheeple will tolerate for very long.
Location: Tucson, AZ __________________
Posts: 5865
Thomas Jefferson

Grigg

04-17-2006 12:02 PM
niugiovanni By law, you are correct that many courts have supported the
Incompletely Registered - argument that an officer should not be found negligent if he fails to
Possibly a SOL act under certain circumstances. Many department policies,
however, suggest standards to the contrary.
Location: That being said, if the law and even department standards do not
Posts: 5
"force" officers to protect the public then wouldn't it suggest
something endearing about officers who do work hard to protect the
public when they can?
06-02-2006 06:34 PM
liberranter quote:
Super Moderator
Originally posted by niugiovanni
That being said, if the law and even
department standards do not "force" officers
to protect the public then wouldn't it suggest
something endearing about officers who do
work hard to protect the public when they
can?

Posts: 5865 My answer would be "no", because if these people are not
required to protect the public, then there is no reason for their
institutional existence. If the police are not legally required to
protect me, my property, or my family, why do I have any use
for them in the first place? I might as well rely on my trusty .38
Special for that purpose, which I would rather do in any case
(cops can't be everywhere at once, and in an emergency
situation requiring quick, life-or-death response, common sense
would tell me not to wait for Officer Oinky to pull his ass off of
the donut shop stool and mosey on over to my rescue).
Ergo, it follows that if I cannot trust these "public servants" to

do what I need them to do most, why should I tolerate my
involuntarily and illegally-seized tax dollars paying for their
maintenance, particularly if I am getting nothing of tangible
beneft from them in return? More importantly, why should I be
grateful to Officer Oinky in the event that he, out of the
kindness of his heart and on a whim, decides in some rare burst
of beneficence to come to my aid merely because he feels like

it? I shudder to think of the world we'd live in if everyone

accepted that attitude and mindset from the rest of the
workforce in other professions.
__________________
Thomas Jefferson

Grigg
06-02-2006 07:07 PM
niugiovanni Then, by your reasoning, any department, community, or county

Incompletely Registered - that requires officers to act is appropriate and necessary.
Possibly a SOL
Additionally, your logic does not follow though you state that it
Registered: Jun 2006 does. You transition to an expression of a lack of trust for officers
Location: without substantiating a reason to distrust all police in all situations
Posts: 5
where the above is true. Now, if you're speaking inductively based
only upon your own community then I can't really argue with you.
If that's the situation that you're in then I find it unfortunate that
general apathy has resigned your civil services to uselessness. On
the contrary, those in communities where the police work dilligently
and are called upon regularly don't appear to fall within the
reasoning that you exhibited.
It's possible that I misread your post. If you care to elaborate could
you try to separate yourself from your own subjective cynicism. I'd
like to objectively examine your position as I think that it may have
some degree of merit.
06-21-2006 09:27 PM

Mack quote:
Assistant Moderator
Then, by your reasoning, any department,
community, or county that requires officers to act
is appropriate and necessary.
Additionally, your logic does not follow though

you state that it does. You transition to an
Registered: Jul 2003 expression of a lack of trust for officers without
Location: substantiating a reason to distrust all police in all
Posts: 5215 situations where the above is true.
By saying "where the above is true", are you implying that there
are some communities or counties that do impose upon police
officers an affirmative and general duty to act, (other than in
certain very limited circumstances), rendering them liable for failure
to act?
If so, please cite your sources, as I strongly doubt you are correct.
If instead you are merely raising a hypothetical scenario, it has

virtually no applicability to Liberranter's comment.
__________________
misconduct
generally."

misconduct.
06-21-2006 10:11 PM

GC Marciano quote:
Many department policies, however, suggest
standards to the contrary.
I'm fairly certain that many/most department policies suggest

standards that would prohibit their officers from soliciting sex
from a child, kidnapping/raping women, murder, driving under
the influence, dealing/using illegal narcotics, etc, etc... yet the
Posts: 9967 News section of the Copwatch Forums contain thousands upon
thousands of media sources that prove they do these things
anyway.
Are you suggesting that because department policy suggests it,

officers abide by the policies?
If so, that has to be one of the most outlandish statements I've

heard in quite a while.
__________________
Court
agents.
Last edited by GC Marciano on 06-21-2006 at 11:19 PM
06-21-2006 10:22 PM

liberranter Full Disclosure

Super Moderator
Niugiovanni:
What force do you serve on, and for how long have you served?
__________________
Thomas Jefferson
Registered: Jun 2005 "Oink If You Hate Freedom"

Posts: 5865 "And this brings us to a point that has to be driven home with
Grigg
06-21-2006 11:13 PM
niugiovanni I know of many police department manuals that specifically state

Incompletely Registered - that an officer can not disregard a call to service. In other words,
Possibly a SOL once dispatched, an officer who ignores or fails to act in responding
to a call to service would be penalized. That's specifically what I'm
Registered: Jun 2006 referring to.
Location:
Posts: 5
06-21-2006 11:15 PM
niugiovanni Re: Full Disclosure

Incompletely Registered -
Possibly a SOL
quote:

Location:
Posts: 5 Niugiovanni:
What force do you serve on, and for how long

have you served?

I can expect that this answer could be construed as a cop-out but I

make it a personal policy not to publicize what department I work
for. Unfortunately, one of the rights you waive upon becoming an
officer is freedom of speech.
I don't intend to omit such information out of disrespect, just a

personal policy. I hope you understand as I do enjoy perusing the
forums.
06-21-2006 11:18 PM
GC Marciano quote:
I know of many police department manuals
that specifically state that an officer can not
disregard a call to service.
Are you really dense enough to believe that a cop gives a shit
about policy? As a cop you know that is not true, in spite of
what you may claim...
Posts: 9967
Read the news and you will see that cops dont give a rats ass
about the law, so why would they pay any heed to policy?
Liberanter, you didn't really expect a cop to identify himself, did

you? Most crooks tend to hide their identity out of fear of
exposure.
quote:

I hope you understand as I do enjoy perusing
the forums.
Another cop that is just "here to learn" huh?
__________________
Court


agents.
06-21-2006 11:23 PM
liberranter Re: Re: Full Disclosure

Super Moderator
quote:

Unfortunately, one of the rights you waive
upon becoming an officer is freedom of speech.
Registered: Jun 2005 I have a hard time accepting this statement at face value; can
Location: Tucson, AZ you furnish some proof (e.g., contract clause) that expresses a
Posts: 5865 clause to the effect that an officer of the law, upon taking his/
her oath of duty, "waives" any rights whatsoever?
__________________
Thomas Jefferson

Grigg
06-21-2006 11:24 PM

liberranter quote:
Super Moderator
Liberanter, you didn't really expect a cop to
identify himself, did you?
You're kidding, right?
Registered: Jun 2005 __________________

Thomas Jefferson

Grigg
06-21-2006 11:27 PM
GC Marciano It's a shame they are not required to waive the right to be
Copwatcher Extraordinaire cowards... There would not be any cops.
__________________
Posts: 9967 Court
agents.

06-21-2006 11:27 PM
niugiovanni That seems a bit unfair. I'm just trying to engage in a legitimate
Incompletely Registered - and intelligent discourse on duty to act. Never once did I argue ad
Possibly a SOL hominem.
Registered: Jun 2006 I can't really apologize for whatever situation created such
Location: invariable prejudice but I am sorry to see that you are so
Posts: 5
vehemently predisposed.
I'll discontinue posting then if you feel that I'm inarguably a

criminal. I've always prided myself in taking the moral high ground
and trying to change a system from within. Maybe when we've both
exhausted our valuable time in this life we can speak again and
discuss who's approach to changing the system was more effective.
Thank you for the time and for supporting such valuable forums.
Honestly, these are necessary.
06-21-2006 11:28 PM
Mack quote:
Assistant Moderator
I know of many police department manuals that
specifically state that an officer can not disregard
a call to service. In other words, once dispatched,
an officer who ignores or fails to act in
responding to a call to service would be
penalized.
Location:
Posts: 5215
The remote possibility that an officer who breaks an administrative
regulation or departmental policy might actually receive a
substantive administrative penalty (or even anything worse than a
one-week suspension with pay) has little bearing upon whether or
not the officer would be exposed to civil or criminal liability for
breaking that rule or policy.
Unless the cop faces jail time or personal financial liability for failing
to act, your claim that he is "required" to act is hollow. It's like
saying the cop is "required" to obey the Ten Commandments,
because he'll be penalized if he doesn't.
It's not saying much, but you're obviously too smart to be a cop.
__________________

misconduct
generally."

misconduct.
06-21-2006 11:34 PM
GC Marciano Question for officer niugiovanni:

As a cop, do you think suspension with pay is an effective
punishment for a police officer who commits a crime?
__________________
Posts: 9967
Court
agents.
06-21-2006 11:37 PM

huckabuck001 I pity the po' fool...

Senior Member
If I'd have known this thread was here, I'd have posted this a LONG
time ago...
Location: Florida
Posts: 577
As you all may know, my entire experience with the JOPLIN POLICE
DEPARTMENT has up to this moment been entirely NEGATIVE!!! I
have no respect for any officer at the JPD based on my dealing with
them, but ACT respectfull for fear of being arrested. I've yet (in
over a year of dealing with them, on COUNTLESS occasions) find
one of their officers who does his job on any of the complaints I
have filed against JOSH SMITH or KIM BATH. We are currently to
the point with that department that NO officer will respond when I
call unless FORCED/ORDERED to do so, and then when they do,
they take a half-ass police report and never file it. I have
NUMEROUS police report numbers that were given to me when the
cops show up, but when I go to get a copy of the police report, I'm
told "the officer never filed a report on that call". The one exception
to that is that the officer filed a report on the MySpace incident I
posted about. Then it was a half-ass report that gives no details
except the BARE MINIMUM!!!
I pity the po' fool who put's his trust in a cop to do his job!!!
04-29-2007 11:08 AM
liberranter Re: I pity the po' fool...

Super Moderator
quote:
Originally posted by huckabuck001
I pity the po' fool who put's his trust in a cop

to do his job!!!

Location: Tucson, AZ Sadly, despite all of the hundreds of examples that occur daily
Posts: 5865 (a tiny fraction of which appear in print or broadcast news and
an even tinier fraction of which are mirrored here on the
CopWatch Forum) of why no one should ever trust a cop or
expect them to do what the public believes they are paid to do
(i.e., defend the lives, liberties, and property of the citizens), it
is obvious that the majority of the Amoricon public consists of
"po' fools" who are gulled, again and again. These people react
in shock, horror, anger, disbelief and disappointment when
Officer Oinky either does not respond to their call for help.
responds so slowly as to be useless (the situation already
turning lethal or injurious due to Oinky's tardy response), or

exhibits "attitude" toward the citizen in distress. Why they

would logically react this way remains a mystery; after all,
Oinky's behavior is exhibited frequently enough that it should
be about as shocking as having one's hand bitten off when one
sticks it into a cage containing an angry hyena, or one
contracting e coli after eating at a restaurant that has been
closed three times in the last year by the health department.
To sum it up, as long as John Q. Public is dense enough to

believe that cops will "do the right thing", despite repeated
evidence to the contrary, J.Q. will continue to --and deserves
to-- suffer the consequences. It's the rest of us who know
better and who still suffer that deserve sympathy.
__________________
Thomas Jefferson

Grigg
04-29-2007 12:49 PM

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COPWATCH.com Forum > BEST OF... > Police have no duty to protect the public
Author Thread
GC Marciano quote:
Question for officer niugiovanni:
As a cop, do you think suspension with pay is

an effective punishment for a police officer
who commits a crime?

Location: Chicago, Illinois I posted the above question to niugiovanni nearly a year ago,
Posts: 9967
you will notice how quickly he took his leave and refused to
answer.
Typical.
http://www.copwatch.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13664&perpage=20&pagenumber=2 (1 of 4)7/10/2010 7:41:23 PM

__________________
Court
agents.
04-30-2007 12:26 AM
huckabuck001 Yessirree, I noticed that immediately. And you'll notice how in MY

Senior Member situation, the criminals KIM BATH and JOSH SMITH have refused to
answer any of the allegations against them, and instead have made
Registered: Feb 2007 ME out to be the criminal (or at least that's what they are trying to
Location: Florida do). I mean, c'mon, A COP WITH A UNIFORM, A BADGE, AND A
Posts: 577
GUN... Internal affairs claims he is so afraid of me, that he calls Sgt
Burns "directly on his cell phone to report the sighting". Loosly
translated, he knows I saw him, and will report him for stalking me!
I told Jason Burns of Internal Affairs "if he or any of his rogue cop
buudies wants to surveylance me for his sister, don't hide! Let me
Know he's out there, and I'll bring them coffee and donuts."
04-30-2007 06:53 AM
liberranter quote:
Super Moderator
Originally posted by huckabuck001
Internal affairs claims [Josh Smith] is so

afraid of me, that he calls Sgt Burns "directly
on his cell phone to report the sighting".
He almost certainly is afraid of you. Most cops, absent their

guns and large numbers of their fellow thugscum to cover for
Posts: 5865 them, are ignorant, cowardly little bitches who live in abject
terror of any citizen with integrity who can see through their lies

and who is willing to stand up for their rights and property.
__________________
Thomas Jefferson

Grigg
04-30-2007 12:32 PM
jselvy If the cops have no requirement to do the duty that I pay them for,
Member what the hell am I paying them for?
Registered: Jun 2007 Report this post to a moderator |

Location:
Posts: 47
06-05-2007 12:14 AM
GC Marciano You are not paying them. "Payment" is voluntary, taxes are
Copwatcher Extraordinaire forcibly taken under threat of imprisonment (tax evasion), so in
effect they are stealing your hard earned money by force.
__________________
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06-05-2007 02:33 AM

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COPWATCH.com Forum - 154 cops died "in the line of duty" in '04, most in accidents:
COPWATCH.com Forum > BEST OF... > 154 cops died "in the line of duty" in '04,
most in accidents:
Author Thread
GC Marciano 154 cops died "in the line of duty" in '04, most in accidents:
Police groups: 154 officers died in 2004

www.CNN.com
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Law enforcement organizations

reported Tuesday that 154 officers died in the line of duty
in 2004, nearly half of them in traffic-related accidents.
Location: Chicago, Illinois The National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund and
Posts: 9967 Concerns of Police Survivors said the statistics for 2004 were
compiled from reports through December 24.
Seventy-two local, state and federal officers died from traffic-

related accidents while 57, about one-third, died from

shootings, the organizations said. A variety of causes led to the

other deaths.
"Better driver training, safer automobiles and the increased use

of bullet-resistant vests and less-lethal weapons are just some
of the measures that must be taken to help prevent our officers
from being killed while preserving public safety," Craig W.
Floyd, chairman of the National Law Enforcement Officers
Memorial Fund, said in a statement.
The number of deaths this year was 6 percent higher than the
145 reported killed in 2003 but nearly equaled the 153 killed in
2002, according to the groups' statistics.
In a six-year period, 1995-2000, officer deaths averaged 159

per year. In 2001, the year of the September 11 attacks, 234
officers died in the line of duty.
This year, the four most populous states led the nation with
officer fatalities in double digits: California with 15, Texas with
14, Florida with 12, and New York with 11.
Eight of the 154 officers who died across the nation were
women, the organizations said. Eight federal officers were killed
in the line of duty in 2004, compared with just one the previous
year.
__________________
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agents.
01-02-2005 05:59 PM

GC Marciano NOTE: Dying "in the line of duty" still covers tripping on the
Copwatcher Extraordinaire curb, hitting your head and dying as a result of your injuries.
It also covers the car accident in which the on-duty officer was
legally drunk.
"57, about one-third, died from shootings" ... This statement

includes death by self-inflicted gunshot wounds.
__________________
Posts: 9967 "The purpose and the principal effect of posting information about bad cops
Court
agents.
01-02-2005 06:05 PM
Texastwister1 I wanna see the real number for in the line of duty officer deaths.
Senior Member
Location:
Posts: 1744
01-02-2005 09:17 PM
GC Marciano Wreckless driving cop kills partner:

http://www.hoinews.com/home/headlines/1315381.html
A young Peoria Police officer is dead after a horrific car accident

on Thursday night.
10-year Peoria Police Veteran Cristy Tindall was killed when the
squad car she was in hit a utility pole. It was ripped nearly in
half.
Posts: 9967
She and another officer were responding to an emergency call.
“I heard a big squeal and big bang and saw it was a cop car,”
says neighborhood resident Kevin Shrum.

Kevin Shrum and other neighbors were on the scene within

minutes. They knew they had to act fast when they saw the
condition of the other police officer in the car.
“You couldn't even see the other person in it. He didn't even
know where he was at first. He was barely breathing,” says
Shrum.
The squad car hit the utility pole on the corner of Van Buren
and Adams, near the Komatsu Plant. The force of the impact
was so strong that parts of the car were strewn across this field.
In fact, you can still see where the battery landed, about 20
feet away--singe marks are still obvious on the grass.
“It hits home and makes you think that everyday you go out
you’re doing something very dangerous to serve your
community,” says Bartonville Police Chief Brian Fengel.
Chief Fengel worked with Officer Tindall when she was a rookie.
He says it's a shock Tindall died while responding to backup for
other officers.
“We do what it takes to get to assist other officers and she was
always one to be there for you if you ever needed it,” says Chief
Fengel.
The condition of the other police officer in the car is not known.
The Peoria County Coroner says she's not sure who was driving.
An autopsy is scheduled for January 1st.
__________________
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agents.
01-03-2005 02:17 AM

Texastwister1 I just can't see the protection the police provide to the public. All
Senior Member sh8t aside im really trying to be open minded about this.
Registered: May 2004 I dont wish harm to come to anyone cop or no cop.
Location:
Posts: 1744 Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
01-03-2005 02:59 AM
butterfly I've been to an officer's funeral and have known officers who were
Senior Member killed, what does that have to do with anything?
I've also been to funerals of those shot and killed by LE officers.
Funny thing, both types of funerals are filled with grieving people.
I've had officers ask me if activists for reform care if they die. I tell
them that you'll never see an activist joke, laugh, celebrate, hi-five
or use racial or gender slurs or "no human involved" when an officer
dies. Come back and we'll discuss the issue again, when the officers
conduct themselves with out doing these behaviors when they kill
people.
Registered: Nov 2004 That said.....
Location: inland empire
Posts: 99
Yes, officers die in accidents. Accidents are often statistically the #1
cause of death while onduty. Mostly, these deaths occur in car
accidents. Both homicides and accidents are dwarfed by suicides. Of
course, the accidents aren't as titilating or particularly useful to the
media as the homicides though they should be.
01-03-2005 06:36 PM
GC Marciano Officers funerals I've attended:

My uncle, 1984. Died in motorcycle accident while patrolling
interstate 1-80 in Illinois. Honored for his death "in the line of
duty".
Family friend, 1996. Died from heart attack brought on by

asthma attack, caused by severe allergies to cats. He had just
picked up a cat by hand to throw it out of the one-room police
station. Honored for his death "in the line of duty".
Posts: 9967
__________________

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agents.
01-03-2005 07:25 PM
Kamakazie Sith quote:

Possibly a SOL Originally posted by Texastwister
I just can't see the protection the police provide
Registered: Dec 2004 to the public. All sh8t aside im really trying to be
Location: open minded about this.
Posts: 520
I dont wish harm to come to anyone cop or no
cop.
I think that's a bad perception accidentally created by "protect and

serve" slogan.
A police officers job is to enforce the law and to bring those who
break the law in.
__________________
MEMBER of the Anti-PETA Anti-Facist LEAGUE
WWDVD - What would Darth Vader do?
01-04-2005 04:33 PM

GC Marciano quote:
Originally posted by Kamakazie Sith
A police officers job is to enforce the law and
to bring those who break the law in.
...If they have time between breaking the law, covering up their
crimes and helping cover the crimes of their fellow officers.
Posts: 9967
Court
agents.
01-04-2005 09:28 PM
Kamakazie Sith quote:

Possibly a SOL Originally posted by A. Shemonia
...If they have time between breaking the law,
Registered: Dec 2004 covering up their crimes and helping cover the
Location: crimes of their fellow officers.
Posts: 520
I'm talking about the good cops, Al.
__________________
MEMBER of the Anti-PETA Anti-Facist LEAGUE
WWDVD - What would Darth Vader do?
01-05-2005 01:55 AM

screwdaman quote:
Junior Member
Originally posted by A. Shemonia
NOTE: Dying "in the line of duty" still covers
tripping on the curb, hitting your head and dying
Registered: Oct 2004 as a result of your injuries.
Location: Michigan
Posts: 3 It also covers the car accident in which the on-
duty officer was legally drunk.
"57, about one-third, died from shootings" ... This

statement includes death by self-inflicted gunshot
wounds.
Self inflicted my ass you ****sucking waste of ****ing time.........
You ****ing people amaze the ****ign hell out of me.......You

have no god damn clue about the job but you can sit and be a arm
chair quaterback.
"He killed a innocent unarmed man!" "He beat me cause I was

black."
**** each and everyone of you inconsiderate bastards. I hope you

all die a horrible and firey death for wishing them harm and
thinking that they cause your **** ups.
They get honored because they protected **** ups and you can't
even think for one second to say damn maybe he/she died trying to
save my pathetic sorry ass from some psychopath with a gun.
Ungreatfull ****s is all you are and thats all you will ever be.
99.9999% of you have criminal records I bet and but of course you
didn't do anything wrong because the police framed you and
planted **** on you. KISS MY ASS.
When you loose brothers and sisters to ****s like you then you
would realize who is honorable and who isn't.
Cops are people and people are human and are prone to make a
mistake or 3 in their lifetime. I don't hear you bitching out the
drunken ass fire fighters that smoke crack, drink and steal from
peoples homes on the job.....OOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo thats cause they can't arrest you for
being a "COMPLETE AND TOTAL ****HEAD1"
Ban me if you wish but remember when you are getting the boots
put to you or someone just shot you don't call the police, call your
liberal mom's and cry to someone that gives a damn..........

02-16-2005 11:04 PM
Darryl Chances are you will not be banned.

Senior Member we have seen tons of rookies over the years like you.
CALM DOWN!!
Registered: Jul 2003 read some of the info posted on here.
Location: If you are a honest cop then your stake is as high as ours.
Posts: 755
02-18-2005 04:12 AM
butterfly Just give him a glass of milk and cookies.

Senior Member
I just love cop groupies. They make police reform so much
harder.... b/c like people caught in the throes of infatuation, they're
just too enamoured with their subjects to ask the really tough
questions.

Posts: 99
02-20-2005 08:02 PM
Anthony quote:
Senior Member
Originally posted by A. Shemonia
Registered: Mar 2005 NOTE: Dying "in the line of duty" still covers
Location: tripping on the curb, hitting your head and dying
Posts: 219 as a result of your injuries.
It also covers the car accident in which the on-

duty officer was legally drunk.
"57, about one-third, died from shootings" ... This

statement includes death by self-inflicted gunshot
wounds.
Are you talking about an accident or suicide? Suicides are not

included in those stats, just FYI.

07-08-2005 03:42 AM
butterfly Suicides are very high in law enforcement.

Senior Member
Cops who commit suicide site
Suicide memorial

Posts: 99
07-08-2005 04:57 PM
GC Marciano quote:
Originally posted by butterfly
Suicides are very high in law enforcement.
Of course. What are the primary reasons one commits suicide?

It is the overwhelming feeling of worthlessness and guilt. No
wonder so many cops off themselves.
Posts: 9967
Court
agents.
07-08-2005 07:40 PM

Anthony According my psychology classes I took in school, a large factor is

Senior Member the strain the jobs puts on their relationships and personal lives.
Registered: Mar 2005 I doubt the bad cops feel guilt and probably not the ones off'ing
Location: themselves.
Posts: 219
07-08-2005 10:00 PM
GC Marciano quote:
Originally posted by Anthony
According my psychology classes I took in
school, a large factor is the strain the jobs
puts on their relationships and personal lives.
Well naturally. I doubt the reports list the reason for the cops
suicide as "extreme worthlessness and guilt". Remember who
writes the reports... Oh yeah. The Coroner Investigators office,
Posts: 9967 a division of the County Sheriff's office... The cops.
Realistically, the "stress of the job" line is a good pawn. The

public will easily run with that one and probably even assist in
calling for more funding in order to reduce this alleged stress
that is causing cops to off themselves.
__________________
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agents.
07-10-2005 11:38 PM

GC Marciano In the evening hours of Dec 29, Chicago police officer Delvin
Copwatcher Extraordinaire Williams Pointed his gun at his wife and pulled the trigger.
Again. And again. And again. Seven times in all. After
murdering his wife, he turned the gun on himself and pulled the
trigger. Once. It was the third suicide of a Chicago cop last
year.
Retired Chicago police Officer Jack Felker spends his days at roll
calls as part of the departments push to draw attention to
suicide and depression in the police ranks.
Location: Chicago, Illinois According to Felker, 60 police officers died in gun battles or
Posts: 9967
similar shooting incidents. 318 cops killed themselves. In 2001
the numbers were even higher, as over 400 cops killed
themselves. The actual numbers may be much higher as it is
common practice for investigators to fraudulently attempt to
make the suicide look like an accident to protect benifits for the
dead cops family.
Most cops, caught up in the macho cop culture, won't talk about
their depression and suicidal thoughts despide plenty of studies
warning that cops are far more prone to depression and suicide
than the general public. The National Institutes for Health set
the national suicide rate at 12 per 100,000 people, but the
suicide rate among cops is more than twice that, at 26 per
100,000 officers.
What causes a person to contemplate suicide? In general, it is

overwhelming feelings of worthlessness or guilt. -Both very
common traits of police officers, as they are usually deeply
involved in criminal activity and are constantly fearful. The
general public have such a lower suicide rate, because common
citizens are generally honest, hard working, contributing
members of society. Not so with police officers. Cops are
generally worthless, ignorant people with low education and
little or no skill.
The Chicago police department has hired Felker full time to

address the issue of police suicide during morning roll calls.
They have also began sending all supervisors and field training
officers to special seminars about depression and suicide, all at
the expense of hard-working tax payers.
According to studies, cops most likely to kill themselves are

males in their 30's who are having job-related, financial or legal
problems or are involved in troubled relationships. Many are on
disability, and most often alcohol or drug abuse is a factor.
In 1998, following 4 suicides by Chicago cops, Supt. Terry

Hillard made a personal plea, taping a messege that was then
broadcast to every cop in his department. In his message, he
stressed the recent rash of problems: Suicide, Murder, shooting
the television, shooting the drywall, shooting through the floor

into the neighbors ceiling, pistol whipping ones wife of

girlfriend.
So now we know. Chicago has a full time position filled by Jack

Felker, who's primary job is to go around and attempt to keep
cops from killing themselves and/or their spouses.
God Bless America.
__________________
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agents.
07-11-2005 09:11 AM
Anthony Good point to bring up, b/c of the macho attitude and b/c the
Senior Member agency might respond by yanking them off duty, the officers don't
seek help like other citizens might until it bubbles up and it's too
Registered: Mar 2005 late.
Location:
Posts: 219
07-11-2005 01:24 PM


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COPWATCH.com Forum > BEST OF... > 154 cops died "in the line of duty" in '04,
most in accidents:
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k9deputy106 Here is a current list for this years officer deaths. It breaks them
Junior Member down more specificully then just grouping all vehicular deaths into
"accidents".
Registered: May 2005 Aircraft accident: 2
Location: Automobile accident: 14
Posts: 22
Drowned: 1
Duty related illness: 1
Gunfire: 31
Gunfire (Accidental): 4
Heart attack: 10
Motorcycle accident: 1
Stabbed: 1
Struck by vehicle: 4
Training accident: 1
Vehicular assault: 6
Vehicle pursuit: 1

This list does not include suicides, which I dont think should be
included in a line of duty list anyway. i am not going to say that I
have the most dangerous job around, but I will raise the question
for someone to show me a job where more people are killed soley
based upon their job and the sole fact that they are doing it.
Workmans comp stats only show that on average cops get hurt less
then other jobs. That makes sense, hell I drive around most the
time. But then there are those few moments when you are walkig
up to a domestic and wonder if one of the parties is waiting for you
with a gun. I do not think I have the most dangerous job out there,
but I do acknowledge each day that it CAN be a fatal one.
Anyway, thought maybe this would get the post back to its subjet
since it seems to have fallen into name calling. And yes... by that
statement I am also referring to those who profess to be pro LEO
yet can only argue with stupid threats and personal attacks.
__________________
*Cogito ergo non dormio
*There is nothing worse then he who did nothing because he could
only do a little
07-23-2005 11:38 AM
Anthony So, I guess the original post that made it seem like officers don't
Senior Member really get killed is misleading (like a lot of other information on this
site).
Location: It said half of them were from traffic-related. I bet they stuck in
Posts: 219 vehicular assault in with traffic, as well as getting hit by cars doing
stuff like traffic control or traffic stops. Then they didn't mention
stabbings, other attacks, and of course heart attacks that often
happen after a foot pursuit or physical struggle.
If you guys were less biased, more logical, honest, and

professional, this site could actually be much more popular and
respected by even the LE community. Too bad.
07-23-2005 06:04 PM

Observer3 Let me tell you something K9....

Senior Member
To "K9"
Let me tell you a little something about why people on here are so
bitter.
I am someone who lived my whole life respecting police officers and

what they do. I greatly respected them as registered nurse working
Registered: Jul 2005 in a level I trauma center emergency room.
Location: Michigan
Posts: 190 Then one day someone you call a "friend", a police officer turns on
you for his own personal gain and protection. He turns on you to
protect his own ass and reputation. He turns on you to prevent
from being publicy humilated and instead he commits perjury in a
court of law to bring false charges upon you...which of course...
since he is police officer are believed by the judge. You too would
be a little pissed. I am someone who has NEVER broken the law and
do NOT have a criminal record......until this "respected" police
officer changed all of that.
Perhaps your day will come when one of your cronies and someone
that you trusted as "friend" and co-worker turns on you!!
I KNOW about the ODMP where you got your statistics.

I KNOW about cops dying. I was there to help pick up the pieces of
this police officer in the trauma room:
http://www.odmp.org/officer.php?oid=16338
So please, dont go spouting off on here about how righteous you

are and how people on here should just resort to "the facts".
You come tell us how you might react when turned on by one of
your "brothers in blue".
A wise nurse who can forgive, but NEVER forget.
08-04-2005 10:11 PM

melt Re: Let me tell you something K9....

Senior Member
quote:
Originally posted by Observer3

To "K9"
Let me tell you a little something about why

Registered: Jul 2005 people on here are so bitter.
Location: Now Golfing in Sunny
Charleston SC and writing my I am someone who lived my whole life respecting
future award winning novel police officers and what they do. I greatly
Posts: 162 respected them as registered nurse working in a
level I trauma center emergency room.
Then one day someone you call a "friend", a

police officer turns on you for his own personal
gain and protection. He turns on you to protect
his own ass and reputation. He turns on you to
prevent from being publicy humilated and instead
he commits perjury in a court of law to bring false
charges upon you...which of course...since he is
police officer are believed by the judge. You too
would be a little pissed. I am someone who has
NEVER broken the law and do NOT have a
criminal record......until this "respected" police
officer changed all of that.
Perhaps your day will come when one of your

cronies and someone that you trusted as "friend"
and co-worker turns on you!!
A wise nurse who can forgive, but NEVER forget.
Observer 3, sorry to hear about your unfortunate experience.
You can make a difference, you sound like a person of reasonable

intelligence, so I would like to urge you to write to your senator,
congressman, governor and mayor and tell them your story. Tell
these men who are supposed to represent the people we demand
more from our law enforcement officers. I am sure if you were to
violate a patients civil rights and or strike a patient you would be
terminated and possibly have your licensed pulled, yet law
enforcement officers would receive a lengthy paid suspension for
the same offense.
I posted a couple links for you below, the pen is mightier then the
sword. Good luck
http://www.house.gov/house/MemberWWW.shtml

http://www.senate.gov/general/conta...enators_cfm.cfm
http://www.gop.com/ContactUs/Default.aspx
http://www.democrats.org/
__________________
"The problem of power is how to achieve its responsible use rather
than its irresponsible and indulgent use - of how to get men of
power to live for the public rather than off the public."
Robert F. Kennedy
"No man is above the law and no

man below it."
Theodore Roosevelt
"nemo est supra leges"
08-07-2005 10:11 PM
Observer3 thanks Melt

Senior Member
Hey Melt...
Thanks for the great links. Actually, I have already written my local
rep, state attorney general and senator. After about 6 weeks have
only heard from the senator. Basically, the senator told me he
sympathizes but offered no assistance. I am still waiting to hear
from the rep and the state attorney general.
Location: Michigan Obs3
Posts: 190
08-07-2005 11:12 PM
Satyr Observer3, what's your story? Did a p8g made you get fired and
The little bird that sings then filed up charges against you? I tell ya what... I use to respect
police officers until the local police department who arrested my
mother and threw her in jail refuse to get her a CLEAN pair of
panties because my mother was so afraid that she crapped in
herself... YES you hear it right... my mother had to sleep in a very
cold cell with crap in her pants... Is this the America that I know?
Or is America not so nice after all? I'm sure this happens
everywhere in the USA... Not to mention my mother told me how
the correctional officers was feeding them rotten foods! My mother
explained how they were giving people green baloney sandwiches!
Another incident happen with the same police department on on of

Registered: Sep 2004 it's officers who decided to play nazi with me with his shaved bald
Location: Florida
head.. While I was in a life crises He decided to take a advantaged
Posts: 930

of the situation and decided to arrest me for the possession of a

knife! The courts wanted me to pay a fine... which I decided that I
was going to fight... theirs no way I'm giving the courts free
money... no fuxing way! I was somewhat qualified to go to mental
court and won after words... I fought my misdemeanor... however
it's sad because after I was ( still am) grieving over my mothers
death I was in no peace.. Both the police department, the state
attorney and the courts were all harassing me!
You know how exhausting that was and for what? a skin headed
cop that wanted to arrested somebody that day without knowing
what was going on.
08-08-2005 05:12 AM
GC Marciano I recently watched the segment on America's Most Wanted (05-

Copwatcher Extraordinaire 21-05) dedicated to slain police officers.
It was absolutely pathetic. It's one thing to honor police officers

who have sacrificed their lives to save another, but host John
Walsh seemed exceptionally deceptive in this production, as he
conveniently neglected to mention that MOST officers who have
"died in the line of duty", died due to common accidents, health
issues and in many cases their own criminal activities.
Registered: Jul 2003 The "America's Most Wanted" segment made absolutely no
Location: Chicago, Illinois mention of this.
Posts: 9967
Instead it glorified every deceased officer as a national hero,
including the clumsy oaf that fell and struck his head on the
curb in front of the department, the officers that have shot
themselves while cleaning/unloading their firearms, the officers
that were accidentally shot and killed by their fellow officers,
the officers that were killed in single-vehicle accidents due to
their own inability to drive safely, weather disasters, etc.
2004 "line of duty" deaths:
* Aircraft accident: 3
1 died while on vacation, 1 died in an on-duty crash due
to pilot error, 1 was a pilot who crashed his own plane
during a stunt maneuver gone awry.
* Automobile accident: 35
This includes 9 incidents in which the officer was legally
intoxicated, 17 while enroute to or from the work place
and 10 while on vacation or other paid leave.
* Bomb: 2
1 died during a training exercise gone awry, 1 died in an
ambush explosion.

* Drowned: 3
2 were the result of scuba diving accidents, one was the
result of a boating accident involving the officers use of
alcohol. 2 civillians also died in this boating accident.
* Electrocuted: 1
This officer was working on the electrical system in his
own home.
* Explosion: 1
This single death was the result of a natural gas leak at
his residence, the officers wife also died in this incident. It
is reported that the officer had improperly installed a
water heater the day before the explosion.
* Fall: 1
This officer fell from a scaffolding unit while working his
part time construction job. His BAC was 0.09 at the time
of death.
* Gunfire: 53
Of these gunfire deaths, 5 were the result of bar room or
other off-duty brawls, 6 were related to domestic disputes
in their own home, 3 were mistaken identity by their
fellow officers.
* Gunfire (Accidental): 4
3 of these accidental gunfire deaths were the result of self
inflicted gushot wounds, 1 was a hunting accident.
* Heart attack: 11
...Hardly a heroic way to go out.
* Motorcycle accident: 7
4 were killed in on-duty freeway traffic accidents, the
remaining 3 are attributed to drag racing accidents, 2 of
which involved alcohol use by the officer involved.
* Stabbed: 1
This single stabbing death was stabbed and killed by a
convicted killer who had escaped from the Arizona Dept.
of Corrections. The suspect remains at large.
* Struck by vehicle: 7
5 of these officers died while exiting their vehicle during
routine traffic stops, 2 were run down by their own
vehicles after neglecting to properly engage the vehicle in
Park.
* Vehicular assault: 18
4 of these vehicular assaults were at the hand of their
spouse during domestic disputes, 1 was at the hand of his
father, 9 are labelled vehicular homicide because the
driver was legally intoxicated at the time of the var vs

officer accident. the remaining 4 were at the hand of

suspected or wanted criminals.
* Weather/Natural disaster: 1
Dripping in heroism... One Florida hurricane faces capital
murder charges.
* Vehicle pursuit: 6
3 were attributed to vehicle malfunction, 3 were
attributed to unsafe driving conditions.
__________________
Court
agents.
08-05-2006 10:45 PM

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The Citizens Rule Book

JURY HANDBOOK
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/7006/rulebook.html
Location: LINCOLN said "Study the Constitution!"
Posts: 31403
"Let it be preached from the pulpit, proclaimed in legislatures, and
enforced in courts of justice."
RIGHTS COME FROM GOD,
NOT THE STATE!
"You have rights atecedent to all earthly governments; rights that

cannot be repealed or restrained by human laws; rights derived
from the Great Legislator of the Universe."

John Adams,
Second President of the United States
TABLE of CONTENTS
Section I A HANDBOOK FOR JURORS
JURY DUTY
YOU ARE ABOVE THE "LAW"!
JURY RIGHTS
LAW OF THE LAND
TEN COMMANDMENTS
COMMUNIST MANIFESTO
GIVE UP RIGHTS?
JURY TAMPERING?
Section II GIVE ME LIBERTY...
PATRICK HENRY SHOCKED

JURY OF PEERS
FREEDOM FOR WILLIAM PENN
JEFFERSON'S WARNINGS!
Section III ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS
INDEX TO THE DOCUMENTS

Index to the unanimous Declaration
Index to the Constitution of the United States
Index to the Amendments to Constitution of the United States
THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE
THE CONSTITUTION
THE BILL OF RIGHTS
Copies of this information are available from Whitten Printers

Links to Related Subjects
Section I
A HANDBOOK FOR JURORS
Jury Duty!
The purpose of this information if to revive, as Jefferson put it, "The
Ancient Principles." It is not designed to promote lawlessness or a
return to the jungle. The "Ancient Principle" refer to the Ten
Commandments and the Common Law. The Common Law is, in
simple terms, just plain common sense and has its roots in the Ten
Commandments.
In 1776 we came out of BONDAGE with FAITH, UNDERSTANDING

and COURAGE. Even against great odds, and with much bloodshed,
we battled our way to achieve LIBERTY. LIBERTY is that delicate
area between the force of government and FREEWILL of man.
LIBERTY brings FREEDOM of choice to work, to trade, to go and live
wherever one wishes; it leads to ABUNDANCE. ABUNDANCE, if
made an end in itself, will result in COMPLACENCY which leads to
APATHY. APATHY is the "let George do it" philosophy. This always
brings DEPENDENCY. For a period of time, dependents are often not
aware they are dependent. They delude themselves by thinking

they are still free - "We never had it so good." - "We can still vote,
can 't we?" Eventually abudance diminishes and DEPENDENCY
becomes known by its true nature: BONDANGE!!!
There are few ways out of bondage. Bloodshed and war aften
result, but our founding fathers learned of a better way. Realizing
that a CREATOR is always above and greater than that which He
creates, they established a three vote system by which an informed
Citizenry can control those acting in the name of govenment. To be
a good master you must always remember the true "pecking order"
or chain of command in this nation:
1. GOD created man...
2. Man (that's you) created the Constitution
3. The Constitution created government...
4. Government created corporations...etc.
The base of power was to remain in WE THE PEOPLE but

unfortunately, it was lost to those leaders acting in the name of
government, such as politicians, bureaucrats, judges, lawyers, etc.
As a result America began to function like a democracy instead of a

REPUBLIC. A democracy is dangerous because it is a one-vote
system as opposed to a Republic, which is a three-vote system.
Three votes to check tyranny, not just one. American Citizens have
not been informed of their other two votes.
Our first vote is at the polls on election day when we pick those who
are to represent us in the seats of government. But what can be
done if those elected officials just don't perform as promised or
expected? Well, the second two votes are the most effective means
by which the common people of any nation on earth have ever had
in controlling those appointed to serve them in government.
The second vote comes when you serve on a Grand Jury. Before
anyone can be brought to trial for a capital or infamous crime by
those acting in the name of government, permission must be
obtained from people serving on the Grand Jury! The Minneapolis
Star and Tribune in the March 27th 1987 edition noted a purpose of
the Grand Jury this way: "A grand jury's purpose is to protect the
public from an overzealous prosecutor."
The third is the most powerful vote; this is when you are acting as
a jury member during a courtroom trial. At this point, "the buck
stops" with you! It is in this setting that each JUROR has MORE
POWER than the President, all of Congress, and all of the judges
combined! Congress can legislate (make law), the President or
some other bureaucrat can make an order or issue regulations, and
judges may instruct or make a decision, but no JUROR can ever be
punished for voting "Not Guilty!" Any JUROR can, with impunity,
choose to disregard the instructions of any judge or attorney in
rendering his vote. If only one JUROR should vote "Not Guilty" for
any reason, there is no conviction and no punishment at the end of
the trial. Thus, those acting in the name of government must come
before the common man to get permission to enforce a law.

YOU ARE ABOVE THE LAW!
As a JUROR in a trial setting, when it comes to your individual vote

of innocent or guilty, you truly are answerable only to GOD
ALMIGHTY. The First Amendment to the Constitution was born out
of this great concept. However, judges of today refuse to inform
JURORS of their RIGHTS. The Minneapolis Star and Tribune in a
news paper article appearing in its November 30th 1984 edition,
entitled: "What judges don't tell the juries" stated:
"At the time of the adoption of the Constitution, the jury's role as
defense against political oppression was unquestioned in American
jurisprudence. This nation survived until the 1850's when
prosecutions under the Fugitive Slave Act were largely unsuccessful
because juries refused to convict."
"Then judges began to erode the institution of free juries, leading to

the absurd compromise that is the current state of the law. While
our courts uniformly state juries have the power to return a verdict
of not guilty whatever the facts, they routinely tell the jurors the
opposite."
"Further, the courts will not allow the defendants or their counsel to
inform the jurors of their true power. A lawyer who made...
Hamilton's argument would face professional discipline and charges
of contempt of court."
"By what logic should juries have the power to acquit a defendant
but no right to know about the power? The court decisions that
have suppressed the notion of jury nullification cannot resove this
paradox."
"More than logic has suffered. As orignally conceived, juries were to

be a kind of safety valve, a way to soften the bureaucratic rigidity
of the judicial system by introducing the common sense of the
community. If they are to funciton effectively as the 'conscience of
the community,' jurors must be told that they have the power and
the right to say no to a prosecution in order to achieve a greater
good. To cut jurors off from this information is to undermine one of
our most important institutions."
"Perhaps the community should educate itself. Then Citizens called

for jury duty could teach the judge a needed lesson in civics."
This information is designed to bring to your attention one

important way our nation's founders provided to insure that you,
(not the growing army of politicians, judges, lawyers, and
bureaucrats, rule this nation. It will focus on the true power you
possess as a JUROR, how you got it, why you have it, and remind
you of the basis on which you must decide not only the facts placed
in evidence but also the validity or application of every law, rule,
regulation, ordinance, or instruction given by any man seated as a
judge or attorney when you serve as a JUROR.

One JUROR can stop tyranny with a "NOT GUILTY VOTE!" He can
nullify bad law in any case, by "HANGING THE JURY!"
I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do

something. What I can do, I should do and, with the help of God, I
will do!
Everett Hale
The only power the judge has over the JURY is their ignorance!
"WE THE PEOPLE," must relearn a desperately needed lesson in

civics.
The truth of this question has been answered by many testimonies

and historical events. Consider the following:
JURY RIGHTS
"The jury has a right to judge both the law as well as the fact in
controversy."
John Jay, 1st Chief Justice
United States supreme Court, 1789
"The jury has the right to determine both the law and the facts."
Samuel Chase, U.S. supreme Court Justice,
1796, Signer of the unanimous Declaration
"the jury has the power to bring a verdict in the teeth of both law
and fact."
Oliver Wendell Holmes,
U.S. supreme Court Justice, 1902
"The law itself is on trial quite as much as the cause which is to be

decided."
Harlan F. Stone, 12th Chief Justice
U.S. supreme Court, 1941
"The pages of history shine on instance of the jury's exercise of its

prerogative to disregard instructions of the judge..."
U.S.vs Dougherty, 473 F 2nd 113, 1139, (1972)
LAW OF THE LAND
The general misconception is that any statute passed by legislators

bearing the appearance of law constitutes the law of the land. The
U.S. Constitution is the supreme law of the land, and any statute,
to be valid, must be in agreement. It is impossible for a law which
violates the Constitution to be valid. This is succintly stated as
follows:
"All laws which are repugnant to the Constitution are null and void. "
Marbury vs Madison, 5 US (2 Cranch) 137, 174, 176, (1803)
"Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can

be no rule making or legislation which would abrogate them quot;

Miranda vs Arizona, 384 US 436 p. 491.
"An unconstitutional act is not law; it confers no right; it imposes no

duties; affords no protection; it creates no office; it is in legal
contemplation, as inoperative as though it had never been passed."
Norton vs Shelby County118 US 425 p.442
"The general rule is that an unconstitutional statute, though having

the form and the name of law, in in reality no law, but is wholly
void, and ineffective for any purpose; since unconstitutionality
dates from the time of its enactment, and not merely from the date
of the decision so branding it.
No one is bound to obey an unconstitutional law and no courts are

bound to enforce it."
16th American Jurisprudence 2d, Section 177
late 2nd, Section 256
A SUMMARY OF
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS
The TEN COMMANDMENTS represent GOD'S GOVERNMENT OVER

MAN! GOD commands us for our own good to give up wrongs and
not rights! HIS system always results in LIBERTY and FREEDOM!
The Constitution and the Bill of Rights are built on this foundation,
which provides for punitive justice. It is not until one damages
another's person or property that he can be punished. The Marxist
system leads to bondage and GOD'S system leads to LIBERTY!
Read very carefully:
1. Thou Shalt have no other gods before Me.

2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord
thy God in vain.
4. Remember the Sabbath to keep it Holy.
5. Honor thy father and mother.
6. Thou shalt not murder.
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery
8. Thou shalt not steal.
9. Thou shalt not bear false
witness.
10. Thou shalt not covet.
Directly above the Chief Justice's chair is a tablet signifying the TEN
COMMANDMENTS When the Speaker of the House in the U.S.
Congress looks up, his eyes look into the face of Moses. "The Bible
is the Book upon which this Republic rests."
- Andrew Jackson, Seventh President of the United States
"The moral principles and precepts contained in the Scriptures

ought to form the basis of all our civil constitutions and laws. All the
miseries and evils which men suffer from, vice, crime, ambition,
injustice, oppression, slavery, and war, proceed from the despising
or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible."
-Noah Webster
A SUMMARY OF
THE COMMUNIST MANIFESTO
The Communist Manifesto represents a misguided philosophy,

which teaches the Citizens to give up their RIGHTS for the sake of
the "common good," but it always ends in a police state. This is
called preventive justice. Control is the key concept. Read carefully:
1. Abolition of private property.

2. Heavy progressive income tax.
3. Aboliton to all rights of
inheritance.
4. Confiscation of property of all
emigrants and rebels.
5. A Central bank 6. Government control of Communications
and Transportation
7. Government ownership of factories and
agriculture.
8. Government control of labor.
9. Corporate farms, regional planning.
10. Free education for all children in
govenment contolled schools
GIVE UP RIGHTS
FOR THE "COMMON GOOD"?
When the people fear the government you have tyranny; when the
government fears the people, you have liberty.
Politicians, bureaucrats and especially judges would have you

believe that too much freedom will result in chaos. Therefore, we
should gladly give up some RIGHTS for the good of the community.
In other words, people acting in the name of government, say we
need more laws and more JURORS to enforce these laws - even if
we have to give up some more RIGHTS in the process. They believe
the more laws we have, the more control, thus a better society.
This theory may sound good on paper, and apparently many of our
'leaders' think this way, as evidenced by the thousands of new laws
that are added to the books each year in this country. But, no
matter how cleverly this Marxist argument is made, the hard fact is
that whenever you give up a RIGHT you lose a "FREE CHOICE"!
This adds another control. Control's real name is BONDAGE! The

logical conclusion would be, if giving up some RIGHTS, produces a
better society, then by giving up all RIGHTS we could produce the

perfect society. We could chain everybody to a tree, for lack of

TRUST. This may prevent a crime, but it would destroy PRIVACY,
which is the heartbeat of FREEDOM! It would also destroy TRUST
which is the foundation for DIGNITY. Rather than giving up RIGHTS,
we shoud be giving up wrongs! The opposite of control is not chaos.
More laws do not make less criminals! We must give up wrongs, not
rights, for a better society! William Penn of the British House of
Commons, once proclaimed, "Necessity is the plea for every
infringement of human liberty; it is the argument of tyrants; it is
the creed of slaves."
INALIENABLE, (UNALIENABLE) OR
NATURAL RIGHTS!
NATURAL RIGHTS ARE THOSE RIGHTS such as LIFE (from

conception), LIBERTY and the PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS e.g.
FREEDOM of RELIGION, SPEECH, LEARNING, TRAVEL, SELF-
DEFENSE, ETC. Hence laws and statutes which vilolate NATURAL
RIGHTS, though they have the color of law, are not law but
imposters! The U.S. Constitution was written to protect these
NATURAL RIGHTS from being tampered with by legislators. Further,
our forefathers also wisely knew that the U.S. Constitution would be
utterly worthless to restrain government legislators unless it was
clearly understood that the people had the right to compel the
government to keep within the Constitutional limits.
In a jury trial the real judges are the JURORS! Surprisingly, judges
are actually just referees bound by the Constitution!
Lysander Spooner in his book Essay on the Trial by Jury wrote as

follows:
"Government is established for the protection of the weak against
the strong. This is the principal, if not the sole motive for the
establishment of all legitimate government. It is only the weaker
party that lose their liberties, when a government becomes
oppressive. The stronger party, in all governments are free by
virtue of their superior strength. They never oppress themselves.
Legislation is the work of the stronger party; and if, in addition to
the sole power of legislation, they have the sole power of
determining what legislation shall be enforced, they have all power
in their hands, and the weaker party are the subjects of an absolute
government. Unless the weaker party have a veto, they have no
power whatever in the government and ...no liberties...The trial by
jury is the only institution that gives the weaker party any veto
power upon the power of the stronger. Consequently it is the only
institution that gives them any effective voice in the government, or
any guaranty against oppression."
The Complete TEXT of The Essay on the Trial by Jury is HERE
JURY TAMPERING?
A JURY'S Rights, Powers and Duties:
The Charge to the JURY in the First JURY Trial before the supreme
Court of the United States illustrates the TRUE POWER OF THE

JURY. In the February term of 1794, the supreme (Supreme is not

capitalized in the Constitution, however Behavior is. Art. III) Court
conducted a JURY trial and said: "...it is presumed, that the juries
are the best judges of facts; it is, on the other hand, presumed that
the courts are the best judges of law. But still both objects are
within your power of decision."
"You have a right to take upon yourselves to judge of both, and to

determine the law as well as the fact in controversy."
(State of Georgia vs. Brailsford, et al, 3 Dall 1)
"The JURY has an unreviewable and unreversible power...to aquit in

disregard of the instructions on the law given by the trial
judge..." (emphasis added)
U.S.vs Dougherty, 473 F 2nd 1113, 1139, (1972)
Hence, JURY disregard to the limited and generally conviction-

oriented evidence presented for its consideration, and JURY
disregard for what the trial judge wants them to believe is the
controlling law in any particular case (sometimes referred to as
"JURY lawlessness"{jury lawlessness means willingness to nullify
bad law}) is not something to be scrupulously avoided, but rather
encouraged. Witness the following quotation from the eminent legal
authority above mentioned: "Jury lawlessness is the greatest
corrective of law in its actual administration. The will of the state at
large imposed on a reluctant community, the will of a majority
imposed on a vigorous and determined minority, find the same
obstacle in the local JURY that formerly confronted kings and
ministers." (emphasis added)
Dougherty, cited above, note 32 at 1130
The Right of the JURY to be Told

of Its Power
Almost every JURY in the land is falsely instructed by the judge

when it is told it must accept as the law that which is given to them
by the court, and that the JURY can decide only the facts in the
case. This is to destroy the purpose of a Common Law JURY, and to
permit the imposition of tyranny upon the people.
"There is nothing more terrifying than ignorance in action."

Goethe - engraved on a plaque at the Naval War College
"To embarass justice by a multiplicity of laws, or to hazard it by

confidence in judges, are the oposite rocks on which all civil
institutions have been wrecked."
Johnson - engraved in the Minnesota State Capitol
Outside the supreme Court Chambers
"...The letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life."

II Corinthians 3 vs 6
"It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can
stand by itself."

Thomas Jefferson
The JURY'S options are by no means limited to the choices

presented to it in the courtroom. "The jury gets its understanding
as to the arrangements in the legal system from more than one
voice. There is the formal communicaiton from the 'judge'. There is
the informal communication from the total culture - literature,
current comment, conversation; and, of course, histo ry and
tradition."
Dougherty, cited above, at 1135.
LAWS, FACTS AND EVIDENCE!
Without the power to decide what facts, law and evidence are
applicable. JURIES cannot be a protection to the accused. If people
acting in the name of government are permitted by JURORS to
dictate any law whatever, they can also unfairly dictate what
evidence is admissible or inadmissable and thereby prevent the
WHOLE TRUTH from being considered. Thus if government can
manipulate and control both the law and evidence, the issue of fact
becomes virtually irrelevant. In reality, true JUSTICE would be
denied leaving us with a trial by government and not a trial by JURY!
HOW DOES TYRANNY BEGIN?

WHY ARE THERE SO MANY LAWS?
Heroes are men of glory who are so honored because of some

heroic deed. People often out of gratutude yield allegiance to them.
Honor and allegiance are nice words for power! Power and
allegiance can only be held rightfully by trust as a result of
continued character.
When people acting in the name of government violate ethics, they

break trust with "WE THE PEOPLE." The natural result is for "WE
THE PEOPLE" to pull back power (honor and allegiance).
The loss of power creates fear for those losing the power. Fearing
the loss of power, people acting in the name of government often
seek to regain or at least hold their power. Hence, to legitimatize
their quest for control, laws and force are often instituted.
Unchecked power is the foundation of tyranny. It is the JUROR'S

duty to use the JURY ROOM as a vehicle to stem the tide of
oppression and tyranny: To prevent bloodshed by peacefully
removing power from those who have abused it. The JURY is the
primary vehicle for the peaceable restoration of LIBERTY, POWER
AND HONOR TO "WE THE PEOPLE!"
YOUR VOTE COUNTS!
Your vote of NOT GUILTY must be respected by all other members

of the JURY -it is the RIGHT and the DUTY of a JUROR to Never,
Never, NEVER yield his or her sacred vote - for you are not there as
a fool, merely to agree with the majority, but as an officer of the

court and a qualified judge in your own right. Regardless of the

pressures or abuse that may be heaped on you by any other
members of the JURY with whom you may in good conscience
disagree, you can await the reading of the verdict secure in the
knowledge you have voted your own conscience and convictions -
and not those of someone else.YOU ARE NOT A RUBBER STAMP!
By what logic do we send our youth to battle tyranny on foreign

soil, while we refuse to do so in our courts? Did you know that
many of the planks of the "Communist Manifesto"are now
represented by law in the U.S.? How is it possible for Americans to
denounce communism and practice it simultaneously?
The JURY judges the Spirit, Motive and Intent of both the law and
the Accused, whereas the prosecutor only represents the letter of
the law.
Therein lies the opportunity for the accomplishment of "LIBERTY

and JUSTICE for ALL." If you, and numerous other JURORS
throughout the State and Nation begin and continue to bring in
verdicts of NOT GUILTY in such cases where a man-made statute is
defective or oppressive, these statutes will become as ineffective as
if they had never been written.
"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude

better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in
peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and
lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you,
and may posterity forget that ye were out countrymen."
Samuel Adams
Section II
GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH!
PATRICK HENRY SHOCKED!
Young Christian lawyer Patrick Henry saw why a JURY of PEERS is

so vital to FREEDOM! It was March 1775 when he rode into a small
town of Culpepper, Virginia. He was totally shocked by what he
saw! There, in the middle of the town square was a minister tied to
a whipping post, his back laid bare and bloody with the bones of his
ribs showing. He had been scourged mercilessly like JESUS, with
whips laced with metal.
Patrick Henry is quoted as saying: "When they stopped beating

him, I could see the bones of his rib cage. I turned to someone and
asked what the man had done to deserve such a beating as this."
SCOURAGED FOR NOT TAKING A LICENSE!
The reply given him was that the man being scourged was a
minister who refused to take a license. He was one of twelve who
were locked in jail because they refused to take a license. A license
often becomes an arbitrary control by government that makes a

crime out of what ordinarily would not be a crime. IT TURNS A

RIGHT INTO A PRIVILEGE! Three days later they scourged him to
death.
This was the incident which sparked Christian lawyer Patrick Henry
to write the famous words which later became the rallying cry of
the Revolution. "What is it that Gentlemen wish? What would they
have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the
price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know no
what course others may take, but as for me, GIVE ME LIBERTY OR
GIVE ME DEATH!"(view complete speech here) Later he made this
part of his famous speech at Saint John's Episcopal Church in
Virginia.
JURY OF PEERS
Our forefathers felt that in order to have JUSTICE, it was obvious

that a JURY of "PEERS" must be people who actually know the
defendant. How else would they be able to judge motive and intent?
"PEERS" of the defendant, like the rights of the JURY have also
been severely tarnished. Originally, it meant people of "equals in
station and rank." (Black's Law Dictionary, 1910), "freeholders of a
neighborhood," (Bouvier's Law Dictionary, 1886), or a "A
companion; a fellow; an associate." (Webster's 1828 Dictionary of
the English Language).
WHO HAS THE RIGHT TO SIT ON A JURY?
Patrick Henry, along with others, was deeply concerned as to who

has a right to sit on a JURY. Listen to our forefather's wisdom on
the subject of "PEERS".
MR.HENRY
"By the bill of rights of England, a subject has a right to a trial by

his peers. What is meant by his peers? Those who reside near him,
his neighbors, and who are well aquainted with his character and
situation in life." Patrick Henry, (Elliont,The Debates in the Several
State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution,
3:579).
Patrick Henry also knew that orignally the JURY of PEERS was
designed as a protection for Neighbors from outside governmental
oppression. Henry states the following, "Why do we love this trial
by jury? Because it prevents the hand of oppression from cutting
you off...This gives me comfort - that, as long as I have existence,
my neighbors will protect me." (Elliot, 3:545, 546)
MR.HOLMES
Mr. Holmes, from Massachusetts, argued strenuously that for

JUSTICE to prevail, the case must be heard in the vicinity where the
fact was committed by a JURY of PEERS. "...a jury of the peers

would, from their local situation, have an opportunity to form a

judgement of the CHARACTER of the person charged with the
crime, and also to judge of the CREDIBILITY of the
witnesses." (Elliot, 2:110).
MR.WILSON
Mr. Wison, signer of "The unanimous Declaration," who also later

became a supreme Court Justice, stressed the importance of the
JUROR'S knowing personally both the defendant and the witnesses.
"Where jurors can be aquainted with the characters of the parties
and the witnesses - where the whole cause can be brought within
their knowledge and their view - I know no mode of investigation
equal to that by a trial by jury: they hear every thing that is
alleged; they not only hear the words, but they see and mark the
features of the countenance; they can judge of weight due to such
testimony; and moreover, it is a cheap and expedious manner of
distributing justice. There is another advantage anexed to the trial
by jury; the jurors may indeed return a mistaken or ill-founded
verdit, but their errors cannot be systematical." (Elliot, 2:516).
FREEDOM FOR WILLIAM PENN
"Thoe people who are not governed by GOD will be ruled by

tyrants."
William Penn
Edward Bushell and three fellow JURORS learned this lesson well.
They refused to bow to the court. They believed in the absolute
power of the JURY, though their eight companions cowered to the
court. The four JURORS spent nine weeks of torture in prison, often
without food or water, soaked with urine, smeared with feces,
barely able to stand, and even threatened with fines, yet they
would not give in to the judge. Edward Bushell said, "My liberty is
not for sale," though he had great wealth and commanded an
international shipping enterprise. These "bumble heads", so the
court thought, proved the power of the people was stronger than
any power of government. They emerged total victors.
THE FIRST AMENDMENT
The year was 1670, and the case Bushell sat on was that of William
Penn, who was on trial for violation of the "Conventicle Act." This
was an elaborate Act which made the Church of England the only
legal church. The Act was struck down by their not guilty vote.
Freedom of Religion was established and became part of the English
Bill of Rights and later it became the First Amendment to the
Constitution of the United States. In addition, the Right to peaceful
assembly was founded.Freedom of Speech, and also habeas corpus.
The first such writ of habeas corpus ever issued by the Court of
Common Pleas was used to free Edward Bushell. Later this trial
gave birth to the concept of Freedom of the press.
Had Bushell and his colleagues yielded to the guilty verdict sought

by the judge and prosecutor. William Penn most likely would have
been executed, as he clearly broke the law.
HE BROKE THE LAW!
Then there would have been no Liberty Bell, no Independence Hall,

no city of Philadelphia, and no state called Pennsylvania, for young
Wiliam Penn, founder of Pennsylvania, and leader of the Quakers,
was on trial for his life. His alleged crime was preaching and
teaching a different view of the Bible than that of the Church of
England. This appears innocent today, but then, one could be
executed for such actions. He believed in freedom of religion,
freedom of speech and the right to peaceful assembly. He had
broken the government's law, but he had injured no one. Those
four heroic JURORS knew that only when actual injury to someone's
person or property takes place is there a real crime. No law is
broken when no injury can be shown. Thus there can be no loss or
termination of rights unless actual damage is proven. Many
imposter laws were repealed as a result of this case.
IT IS ALMOST UNFAIR!
This trial made such an impact that every colony but one
established the jury as the first liberty to maintain all other
liberties. It was felt that the liberties of people could never be
wholly lost as long as the jury remained strong and independent,
and that unjust laws and statutes could not stand when confronted
by conscientious JURORS. JURORS today face an avalanche of
imposter laws. JURORS not only still have the power and the
RIGHT, but also the DUTY, to nullify bad laws by voting "not guilty".
At first glance it appears that it is almost unfair, the power JURORS
have over government, but necessary when considering the
historical track record of oppression that governments have wielded
over private Citizens.
JEFFERSON'S WARNINGS!
In 1789 Thomas Jefferson warned that the judiciary if given too

much power might ruin our REPUBLIC, and destroy our RIGHTS!
"The new Constitution has secured these [individual rights] in the

Executive and Legislative departments; but not in the Judiciary. It
should have established trials by the people themselves, that is to
say, by jury." (emphasis added)
The Judiciary of the United States is the subtle corps of sappers and
miners constantly working under ground to undermine the
foundations of our confederated fabric.." (1820)
"...the Federal Judiciary; an irresponsible body (for impeachment is

scarcely a scarecrow), working like gravity by night and by day,
gaining a little to-day and a little tomorrow, and advancing its
noiseless step like a thief, over the field of jurisdiction, until all shall
be usurped from the States, and the government of all be

consolidated into one....when all government...in little as in great

things, shall be drawn to Washington as the centre of all power, it
will render powerless the checks provided of one government on
another and will become as venal and oppressive as the
government which we seperated. 1821 (emphasis added)
"The opinion which gives to the judges the right to decide what laws
are constitutional and what not, not only for themselves in their
own sphere of action, but for the legislative and executive also in
their spheres, would make the judiciary a despotic branch."
"...judges shold be withdrawn from the bench whose erroneous

biases are leading us to dissolution. It may, indeed, injure them in
fame or fortune, but it saves the Republic..."
Section III
INDEX TO THE
ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS
GENERAL INDEX TO:

THE UNANIMOUS DECLARATION
I. Need to dissolve certain political relationships.

II. Need to assume powers which God entitles man.
III. Declaring separation from unjust government.
IV. Self-evident truths elaborated.
A. All men are created equal.
B. God our Creator gives to each unalienable Rights
1. Life, Liberty, Happiness, property, safety, respect, privacy, etc.
C. The purpose of government is to protect the weak from the
strong.
D. Right and duty to abolish bad government.
1. Fact: The Revolution was not out of rebellion by the colonies, but
rather England rebelled
against God's Law by repeated injuries of usurpation and tyranny.
The young colonies were
forced to defend themselves against the King's tyranny.
a. eg. Bad laws, bad courts, police state (swarms of soldiers), taxes
without consent, deprived of trial by jury, deporting people for trial.
England declared the colonies out of their protection, rights of
individuals plundered.
b. The colonies repeatedly petitioned England, but only received
repeated injury.
c. England was warned from time to time.
d. England was deaf to the voice of justice.
V. The colonies appealed to God, the Supreme Judge of the world.

VI. The colonies right to be free and independent.
VII. Under the protection of God they pledged their lives, fortunes
and honor.
GENERAL INDEX TO:

CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES

Preamble: The people hold the power, "We the people...in order to
form a more perfect union...and secure the blessings of liberty..."
ARTICLE I
SECTION:
1. Legislative powers.
2. House of representatives; qualification of members;
apportionment of representatives and direct taxes; census; first
apportionment; vacancies; officers of the house; impeachments.
3. Senate: classification of senators; qualifications of; vice
president to preside; other officers; trial of impeachments.
4. Election of members of congress; time assembling of congress.
5. Powers of each house; punishment for disorderly Behaviour;
journal; adjournments.
6. Compensation and privileges; disabilities of members.
7. Revenue bills; passage and approval of bills; orders and
resolutions.
8. General powers of congress; borrowing of money; regulations of
commerce; naturalization and bankruptcy; money; weights and
measures; counterfeiting; post offices; patents and copyrights;
inferior courts; piracies and felonies; war; marque and reprisal;
armies; navy; land and naval forces; calling the militia; District of
Columbia; to enact laws necessary to enforce the Constitution.
9. Limitations of congress; imigration; writ of habeas corpus; bills
of attainder and ex post facto laws prohibited; direct taxes; exports
not to be taxed; interstate shipping; drawing money from the
treasury; financial statements to be published; titles of nobility and
favors from foreign powers prohibited.
10. Limitations of the individual states; no treaties; letters of
marque and reprisal; no coining of money; bills of credit; not
allowed to make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a tender in
payment of debts; no bills of attainder; ex post facto Law or law
impairing the obligation of contracts; no titles of nobility; state
imposts and duties; further restrictions on state powers.
ARTICLE II
SECTION:
1. Executive powers; electors; qualifications; vacancy;

compensation and Oath of the president.
2. Powers and duties of the president, making of treaties; power of
appointment.
3. Other powers and duties.
4. All government officers are liable to impeachment.
ARTICLE III
SECTION:
1. Judicial powers; all judges must have good Behaviour to stay in

office; compensation not to be diminished.

2. Jurisdiction of federal courts and supreme court; trials for crimes
by jury except impeachment.
3. Treason defined; trial for and punishment.
ARITICLE IV
SECTION:
1. Message to the states; each state is to give full faith and credit
to public acts and records of other states.
2. Citizens of each state shall be entitled, fleeing from justice.
3. Admission of new states, power of congress over territories.
4. Republican form of government guaranteed to every state;
protection from invasion or domestic violence.
ARTICLE V
SECTION:
1. Amending the Constitution.
ARTICLE VI
SECTION:
1. National obligations; Public debt; Constitution to be the supreme

Law of the land; Constitutional Oath of office; no religious test
required.
ARTICLE VII
SECTION:
1. Ratification of the Constitution; George Washinton signs as a

Twelfthindi, the highest rank in Saxon government, eg. He was the
equal of 1200 King Georges, or you as a juror are equal to 1200
presidents, congressmen or judges, local, federal or the supreme
Court.
GENERAL INDEX TO:

THE BILL OF RIGHTS
and Amendments
PREAMBLE:
Limiting the federal government: An expressed desire to prevent
abuse of federal powers!
ARTICLES - COMMON LAW
I. Religious freedom, both to an establishment as well as the free

exercise thereof; freedom of speech, press; right of petition.
II. Right to bear arms.
III. Quartering of soldiers.
IV. The right to privacy and security against unreasonable searches

and seizures: search warrants.

V. Grand Jury, double jeopardy, no one must witness against
himself, no loss of life, liberty or private property without due
process.
VI. Speedy and public trials, impartial jury; nature and cause, right
to confront; compulsory witnesses, assistance of Counsel - (note:
does not say attorney.)
VII. Right to trial by jury according to the rules of common law -
(note: Ten Commandements are the foundation of Common Law.)
VIII. Excessive bail, fines, punishement etc. prohibited,
IX. Rights beyond Bill of Rights belong to the people.
X. Undelegated powers belong to the people unless given by the
people to the states.
Articles I-X were proposed September 25th, 1789, and ratified
December 15th, 1791.
AMENDMENTS - EQUITY LAW
XI.Restriction of judicial powers, proposed March 5th 1794, adopted

January 8th, 1798.
XII. Manner of electing the president and vice president, proposed
December 12th 1803, adopted September 25th, 1804.
XIII. Slavery and involuntary servitude prohibited, took effect *
December 18th 1865.
XIV. Citizenship and status defined, privilege of 2nd, 3rd, or
whatever status of citizenship one selects for oneself, as opposed to
Freeholder with full sovereign rights: apportionment of
representatives; who is prohibited from holding office; public debt.
CAUTION: There is serious doubt as to the legality of this
amendment because of the manner of ratificatin which was highly
suspect. At least 10 States were held by force of arms until the
proper authorities agreed to vote for this amendment. An excellent
overview of this was written by the Utah Supreme Court - 439
Pacific Reporter 2nd Series pgs 266-276, and for a more detailed
account of how the 14th amendment was forced upon the Nation
see articles in 11 S.C.L.Q. 484 and 28 Tul. L. Rev. 22, took effect
July 28th, 1868.
XV. Non Freeholders given right to vote, took effect March 30th,
1870.
XVI. Income tax, took effect February 25th, 1913. possible only
four States ratified it properly.
XVII. Direct elections of senators; electors; vacancies in the senate,
took effect May 31st, 1913. This moved us from a complete
Republic to a simple republic much like the style of government of
the Soviet Union. States rights were lost and we were plunged
headlong into a democracy of which our forefathers warned was the
vilest form of government because it always ends in oppression.
XVIII. Prohibition of liquor traffic, took effect January 29th, 1920.
XIX. Voting for women, took effect August 27th, 1920.
XX. Terms of the president, vice president, senators and
representatives; date of assembling of congress, vacancies of the
president, power of the congress in presidential succession, took
effect February 6th, 1933.

XXI. Eighteen Article (Prohibition) repealed, took effect December

5th, 1933.
XXII. Limits of the presidential term, took effect March 1st, 1951.
XXIII. Electors for the District of Columbia, took effect April 3rd,
1961
XXIV. Failure to pay any tax does not deny one the right to vote,
took effect February 23rd, 1964.
XXV. Filling the office of the president or vice president during a
vacancy, took effect February 23rd, 1967.
XXVI. Right to vote at 18, took effect July 5th 1971.
*Took effect is used as there is a great deal of suspicion as to the

nature of these amendments (common law vs equity), also whether
these last 16 amendments are legal, how many were ratified
correctly, do they create a federal constitution in opposition to the
original, etc. For further studies a good place to begin is with the
article by the Utah Supreme Court on the 14th Amendment. 439
Pacific Reporter 2d Series, pgs. 266-276 , and Senate Document
240.
JURY:...Petty Juries, consisting usually of twelve men, attend courts

to try matters of fact in civil causes, and to decide both the law and
the fact in criminal prosecutions. The decision of a petty jury is
called a verdict..
American Dictonary of the English Language by Noah Webster 1828
PROCLAIM LIBERTY! Inscribed on our hallowed LIBERTY BELL are

these words " Proclaim LIBERTY Thoughout all the Land unto all the
Inhabitants Thereof."
Lev. XXV X
"Government is not reason; it is not eloquence; it is force! Like fire,

it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."
George Washington
"Woe to those who decree unjust statutes and to those who

continually record unjust decisions, to deprive the needy of justice,
and to rob the poor of My people of their rights..."
Isaiah 10 vs 1-2
"My people are destroyed for the lack of knowledge...!"

Hosea 4 vs 6
"The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do
nothing."
Edmund Burke 1729-1797
"If My people which are called by My name, shall humble

themselves, and pray, and seek My face, and turn from their wicked
ways; then will I hear from Heaven, and will forgive their sins, and
will heal their land."
II Chronicles 7 vs 14
"We must obey GOD rather than men."

Acts 5:29
Quality pocketsized hardcopies of this booklet may be

obtained from:
Whitten Printers
(602) 258-6406
1001 S 5th St.,
Phoenix, AZ 85004
Editoral Work by Webster Adams

PAPER-HOUSE PUBLICATIONS
"Stronger than Steel"
4th Revision
NOW IT'S YOUR TURN!
You - as a juror - armed merely with the knowledge of what a

COMMON LAW JURY really is and what your common law rights,
powers and duties really are, can do more to re-establish "liberty
and justice for all" in this State and ultimately throughout all of the
United States than all our Senators and Representatives put
together. WHY? Because even without the concurrence of all of your
fellow jurors, in a criminal trial, you, with your single vote of "NOT
GUILTY" can nullify every rule of "law" that is not in accordance
with the principles of natural, God-given, Common or Constitutional
Law. It is precisely this power of nullification that makes the trial by
JURY one of our most important RIGHTS. It can protect and
preserve all of the Citizen's other RIGHTS.
__________________
guys are."

their people."
13, 1787
09-04-2007 11:58 AM

Vigilance Go to the link below if you are called to jury duty.

Senior Member
http://www.fija.org/

Location:
Posts: 915
04-09-2008 01:43 PM

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COPWATCH.com Forum - A reckless grand jury can----------
COPWATCH.com Forum > THE MODERN POLICE STATE: JUSTICE DEFERRED, DENIED,
AND DESTROYED > THE JURY SYSTEM: A FALTERING IMPEDIMENT TO LEGALISTIC
TYRANNY > A reckless grand jury can----------
Author Thread
MGMAN A reckless grand jury can----------

Senior Member
I was searching the Hall County Georgia Court website today. I

came across this PDF file. Its a Grand Jury Handbook, and I read
some of it. I got really pissed at this statement.
quote:
A reckless grand jury can do as much harm to the

community and to law enforcement as a weak grand
Registered: Jan 2008 jury.
Georgia

Posts: 1129
Website
Then I found this statement. To me its only purpose is to

discourage the Grand Jury to investigate malfeasance in Goverment
quote:
While the grand jury may appear to have considerable

power and authority, the manner in which it can
exercise its power and authority is strictly regulated by
law and limited by the amount of time and resources
that are available. Experience has taught that no single
grand jury can do everything that the law allows them
to do.
This $hit makes me mad as hell, this crap needs to be removed.
We all know that most Grand Juries are nothing but pro cop and pro
prosecutor sycophants, but damn do they have to be so bold as to
put this in print?
__________________


murderers! They killed a man in cold blood!!
Militamus sub spe.

02-18-2010 04:44 PM
pyo1 Re: A reckless grand jury can----------

Senior Member
quote:
Location: Oklahoma
Originally posted by MGMAN
Posts: 1564
I was searching the Hall County Georgia Court
website today. I came across this PDF file. Its a
Grand Jury Handbook, and I read some of it. I got
really pissed at this statement.
Website
Then I found this statement. To me its only

purpose is to discourage the Grand Jury to
investigate malfeasance in Goverment
This $hit makes me mad as hell, this crap needs

to be removed.
We all know that most Grand Juries are nothing

but pro cop and pro prosecutor sycophants, but
damn do they have to be so bold as to put this in
print?
Now that they have put it in Black and White, they will expect the
sheep to blindly do as told. Any person who doesn't follow the rules
they establish will be dismissed and replaced with someone who will
folow orders as directed! IMO, pissed off should be an
understatement!
__________________
~Robert A. Heinlein

02-18-2010 04:51 PM

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COPWATCH.com Forum - Shocking Revelations from the Rosenberg Grand Jury Files
TYRANNY > Shocking Revelations from the Rosenberg Grand Jury Files
Author Thread
liberranter Shocking Revelations from the Rosenberg Grand Jury Files

Super Moderator
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig8/roots3.1.1.html
Shocking Revelations from the Rosenberg Grand Jury Files
by Roger Roots
The executions of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg in 1953 have

gotten a fresh look in the past two years. An association of
historians and journalists have unearthed the long-secret grand
jury transcripts from the Rosenberg case after years of
Location: Tucson, AZ litigation. Their findings have been released by trickles on a
Posts: 5865 website and in a few short news articles in America’s daily
papers.

Most living Americans probably don’t know much about the

Rosenberg case. Perhaps all they know is that it was a case of a
man and wife accused of spying or leaking some of America’s
atomic secrets to the Soviet Union during the Cold War. Most
who know that much are probably aware that there has been
controversy surrounding the case for decades. Since the 1950s,
opinions about the Rosenberg executions have tracked closely
with peoples’ political views. Those on the Left have long
thought the Rosenberg prosecution represented bare-knuckled
McCarthyesque hysteria, while those on the right have generally
viewed the Rosenberg case to have been a soundly proven case
of espionage.
The recent grand jury revelations provide fodder for both

positions. On the one hand, they shatter all doubts about
whether Julius Rosenberg was a Communist spy. He was. His
own sons, Michael and Robert Meeropol, who have long been
champions of their parents’ exonerations, have partially
recanted and resigned themselves to the reality that at least
their father really was a committed Communist spy in common
cause with the Soviet Union. It is now undeniable that Julius
Rosenberg and Martin Sobell forwarded certain military
information to the Soviets (although not the atomic secrets that
allowed Russia to produce atomic bombs – those secrets were
transmitted by high-ranking U.S. government officials, including
the Assistant Secretary of the Treasury). On the other hand, the
transcripts reveal that Ethel Rosenberg was almost certainly
innocent of the crimes she was executed for committing. It
appears that Ethel’s conviction was the result of perjured
testimony by two government witnesses – her brother- and
sister-in-law, David and Ruth Greenglass – who both testified at
trial that Ethel Rosenberg had typed up notes regarding U.S.
military systems provided by David Greenglass from the U.S.
National Laboratory at Las Alamos. In her recently unearthed
1950 grand jury testimony, Ruth Greenglass admitted it was
she (Greenglass) – and not Ethel Rosenberg – who transcribed
the notes, and in handwritten form.
The differing versions of events described in the 1950 grand

jury hearings (which were secret) and the 1951 trial
proceedings cannot be reconciled. Ruth Greenglass changed her
story between the grand jury hearings and the trial so as to
falsely implicate Ethel Rosenberg. We know from several
accounts that lawyers for the Justice Department coerced,
threatened and coached the witnesses for days before the
Rosenberg trial. The government’s star witness, Harry Gold, had
been prepped by four hundred hours of coaching by prosecutors
and FBI agents. The Feds apparently charged Ethel solely to
coerce Julius into confessing – which he refused to do.
Prosecutors then fabricated the story that Ethel had typed up
some atomic secrets from notes provided by David Greenglass

in order to bolster their otherwise shoddy case against her. The

prosecutor said in closing arguments that Ethel "sat at that
typewriter and struck the keys, blow by blow, against her
country" – the words that are most remembered from the trial.
Lost in the discussion of the transcripts has been their

astounding revelations regarding the grand jury process itself.
How could it take 50 years to reveal these government lies?
How could the government conceal for half a century evidence
that material testimony in one of the most closely watched trials
of the twentieth century was perjured? The grand jury
revelations highlight the fact that the grand jury process
in the United States – especially at the federal level – has
been hijacked by the government.
Ironically, the recent release of the Rosenberg grand jury

transcripts is a major break from contemporary practice. It is
highly unusual for federal courts to order federal grand jury
transcripts to be made public – especially after cases are
closed. Federal courts have even punished a reporter for airing
the names of witnesses who testified three decades earlier in
Jim Garrison's grand jury investigation of President Kennedy's
assassination.
The grand jury is an ancient common law institution whose

original purpose was to protect people from the prosecutorial
power of the government. Under the Fifth Amendment, the
Constitution’s Framers intended that no criminal charges could
ever be initiated by the government alone. A citizen panel of 23
people (more or less) was supposed to act as an obstacle to
prosecutors and ensure that any prosecution be preapproved by
common people. Yet today most commentators agree that the
government can get any grand jury to "indict a ham sandwich."
Federal "indictment rates" greater than 99 percent have
been reported in some years. In 2001, federal grand
juries declined to indict in only 21 cases nationwide.
"These numbers suggest that, whatever the reason, the
federal grand jury now exercises very little power as a
shield between the government and its citizens."
The story of how this once-proud institution fell under the

control of the very prosecutors it was supposed to control is a
long and tragic one. During the nineteenth century, all three
branches of government joined together to silence and deaden
the institution. Over time, it became common for government
prosecutors to be present in grand jury hearings (a practice
strictly forbidden at the time of the Founding), and eventually
prosecutors became managers of the proceedings. In 1946, all
three branches approved the Federal Rules of Criminal
Procedure, which purported to codify for the first time the
common law rules that govern criminal procedure at the federal
level. The rules pertaining to grand jury practice, however, were
deliberately altered to evade the plain language of the Fifth

Amendment ("No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or

otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or
indictment of a Grand Jury").
A presentment is an independent statement of a grand jury not

necessarily approved by a prosecutor. For centuries before the
enactment of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure, grand
juries would issue presentments exposing government
misconduct or accusing people of crimes known to the grand
jurors themselves. Occasionally, grand juries issued
presentments that openly proclaimed a person’s innocence in
defiance of the government’s allegations. The government rule-
makers in 1946 deliberately and calculatingly eliminated the
possibility of a federal grand juries issuing non-government-
approved statements or conclusions of any kind. Since 1946,
any publicized presentments by federal grand jurors have been
prohibited as violations of grand jury "secrecy" rules. Indeed,
grand jurors that release statements of any kind are now
subject to possible five-year prison sentences.
By the time of the Rosenberg case, the grand jury process had
been transformed into a rubber stamp for the government.
Federal prosecutors now dispense all evidence, witnesses and
testimony to grand jurors, who then retire to a deliberation
room to vote on whether to issue indictments. Because the
grand jurors are only given the government’s version of events
and are generally unable to investigate matters on their own
(like grand juries did from the Founding period through the end
of the nineteenth century), they almost always vote according
to the Justice Department’s wishes. In rare instances when
grand juries refuse to indict, federal prosecutors simply present
their same claims to a second (or third, fourth or fifth) grand
jury until an indictment is issued. In such cases, prosecutors
have been known to lie to the later grand juries by falsely
telling them that the first grand jury wanted to indict but ran
out of time, etc. There is never any punishment meted out for
such lies.
And there is more. The Federal Rules strip grand jurors of their
rightful control over the recordings of grand jury testimony,
notes, and "any transcript prepared from those notes." Rule 6
(e) places all grand jury transcripts in the hands of the U.S.
Attorneys Office, giving an awesome power to the government
never known under the common law. Even federal judges don’t
have easy access to the transcripts. In recent decades,
prosecutors have perfected the practices of granting immunity
to selected witnesses, denying it to others, concealing
inconvenient testimony or evidence from the public and
generally leveraging facts and accusations into an
overwhelming advantage over targeted defendants. Defense
attorneys, not even aware of what is said in the transcripts, are
usually unable to challenge them.

What’s more, the U.S. Supreme Court has assured that this
machine of tyranny can virtually never be challenged. In two
cases since the 1970s, the Court has held that grand jury
improprieties are never appealable after conviction and can only
be challenged in the most unusual circumstances via
interlocutory appeal (an extremely rare and disfavored pretrial
device). Of course, defense lawyers are systematically deprived
of the means to make such challenges because the prosecutors
keep all evidence of the improprieties in their own hands, and
courts of appeals almost never grant hearings for interlocutory
appeals in criminal cases even if by miracle some evidence of
grand jury misconduct surfaces.
It is noteworthy that the very grand jury secrecy that

now prevents grand jurors from revealing prosecutorial
misconduct – the same secrecy that kept the Ruth
Greenglass perjury in the Rosenberg case concealed from
the public for 50 years – now operates as a mockery of
the original intent behind grand jury privacy. Under the
common law, grand jury secrecy was a protection for
grand jurors from intimidation by the government. It is
said to have first arisen in England in 1681 when the King
demanded that a grand jury indict his rivals – the Earl of
Shaftesbury and Steven Colledge – for treason. The grand
jury won the right to hold its proceedings in secret –
away from the watchful eyes of the Crown prosecutor.
For two and a half centuries afterward, grand juries had
the right to operate in secret – but to waive secrecy and
issue public presentments when they concluded their
investigations. Today, however, the Federal Rules place
the prosecutor directly within the grand jury room and
expose any grand jurors who expose governmental
improprieties to possible five-year prison sentences.
If the Justice Department’s libraries of grand jury

transcripts were ever thrown open to public scrutiny,
they would speak of prosecutorial misconduct on a
massive scale. We know this because those few cases such as
the Rosenberg case in which grand jury proceedings have been
unsealed have revealed a level of misconduct and abuse by
prosecutors that can only be described as systematic and
pervasive. One federal judge recently wrote that in twenty-
three years of occasionally examining grand jury transcripts to
resolve pretrial motions, he had never once seen a case where
prosecutors gave grand juries accurate legal instructions.
For all its infamy and notoriety, the Rosenberg case is fairly
typical of the systematic injustice that federal criminal law has
degenerated into. As with so many other federal cases, the
most guilty and loathsome characters (e.g., Ruth and David
Greenglass) went unpunished or were given light sentences,
while minor players – Julius and Ethel Rosenberg – were
prosecuted to the max. The government’s most fearsome

prosecutions were and are reserved for those who refused to

ally themselves with the state. David Greenglass, who was
caught red-handed and quickly became a government witness
to save his own skin, watched as his own lies sent his innocent
sister to the electric chair. And, of course, the federal
prosecutors who suborned perjury in the same case were
lauded as great heroes. One of them became a justice on the
New York Supreme Court.
November 18, 2009
Dr. Roger Roots, J.D., Ph.D. is an assistant professor of

Sociology and Criminal Justice at the New York Institute of
Technology.
__________________
Thomas Jefferson

Grigg
11-18-2009 04:59 PM
Night Raven
Senior Member
quote:
If the Justice Department’s libraries of grand jury

transcripts were ever thrown open to public scrutiny,
they would speak of prosecutorial misconduct on a
massive scale. We know this because those few cases
such as the Rosenberg case in which grand jury
Registered: May 2008 proceedings have been unsealed have revealed a level
Location: of misconduct and abuse by prosecutors that can only
Posts: 4804
be described as systematic and pervasive. One federal
judge recently wrote that in twenty-three years of
occasionally examining grand jury transcripts to resolve
pretrial motions, he had never once seen a case where

prosecutors gave grand juries accurate legal

instructions.
Not unlike recent revelations about the true criminals and their
crimes on Wall Street and the Federal Reserve Bank, we can see
that one more "honored" aspect of Amerikanism--the Grand Jury--is
just another heap of horse$hit on the pile. More and more, it is
becoming obvious even to some of the most ignorant Amerikan
sheeple that the Amerikan system of "justice" is merely one more
illusion of the Great Amerikan Hologram of Democracy.
__________________

--Tom Robbins
11-18-2009 06:32 PM

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COPWATCH.com Forum - A Crime of Cowardice: The Unjust Imprisonment of Scott Molen
TYRANNY > A Crime of Cowardice: The Unjust Imprisonment of Scott Molen
Author Thread
liberranter A Crime of Cowardice: The Unjust Imprisonment of Scott Molen

Super Moderator
http://freedominourtime.blogspot.co...ment.html#links
Monday, August 17, 2009
A Crime of Cowardice: The Unjust Imprisonment of Scott Molen
By William Norman Grigg
"When you boil the whole thing down and look at it," comments
Ken McKay regarding the conviction of Boise resident Scott
Molen on charges of sexual misconduct with his step-
Posts: 5865 granddaughter, "there wasn't a single shred of evidence."

Certainly, the prosecution assembled a lurid and shocking story,

anecdote-rich and heavily seasoned with outrage. But examined
dispassionately, trying to make the evidence support the
allegations is as futile as trying to sit on a cloud.
"[T]here were kind of fantastic charges about -- for instance,

there was a pair of [girl's] undergarments that had a blood stain
in them," McKay recalls, but this piece of critical physical
evidence was "never produced."
This was probably not the product of an oversight, but rather a

deliberately deceptive partial disclosure by an opportunistic
prosecutor: The bloodstained underwear were discovered when
the purported victim, a pre-pubescent girl, was living in
Phoenix, Arizona, nearly 1,000 miles from the man accused of
molesting her.
At the time, the alleged victim's mother was effectively living

with a boyfriend of exceptionally dubious character (her most
recent of several paramours of that variety) who left the young
girl terrified, according to people who spoke with her.
Rather than incriminating Scott Molen, the underwear should

have served as a critical piece of exculpatory evidence --
assuming that the garment even existed.
There was also a significant contradiction in the prosecution's

description of the location at which the supposed defilement of
the child took place. The original narrative described episodes of
abuse taking place in a camper. But this was impossible, as
McKay recalls, because the defense was able to demonstrate
that "the camper was crushed by snow" before such abhorrent
acts could have taken place therein.
McKay likewise criticizes the interviewing techniques employed

by the nurse working for the Child At Risk Evaluation Services
(CARES) of St. Luke's Hospital in Boise during the original
examination in July, 2005.
"There was a point ... [when] the CARE interviewer made a

pretty critical mistake when she was interviewing" the alleged
victim, McKay insists. There was a point in the interview, easily
discerned by a reasonably careful observer, at which the
interviewer "actually put her words, used her own words to
describe what the young woman was saying and from that point
forward in the interview [the alleged victim] used the
interviewer's words."
This is a critical point: From that point it was the interviewer

who was effectively telling the story, rather than the supposed
victim. The CARES nurse was prompting the girl, guiding her,
molding the language in such a way as to fit the standard
template of a sex offense charge. "I remember watching [the
recorded interview] and thinking, wow that's really, that's really

incorrect," McKay relates.
All of this adds up to abundant reasonable doubt, McKay insists:

"{B}ased on the evidence, boy, I couldn't say the state made
their case." Yet McKay, who served as foreman of the jury that
convicted Molens, didn't act on that conclusion until a year after
Molens was sent to prison.
McKay's comments, as quoted above, were extracted from a

lengthy interview conducted by a private investigator hired by
Scott Molens' wife Connie as part of an attempt to overturn the
patently unjust conviction -- and, hopefully, to impose some
measure of accountability on those responsible for it.
Like too many spouses and family members of unjustly

convicted people, Connie has assembled and collated a huge
amount of evidence regarding the official misconduct, abuse of
discretion, and corruption that characterized the prosecution of
her husband. Examining that material, I am struck by the fact
that Molen would still be a free man (well, as free as any of us
are in late imperial America) if one of his fellow citizens had
thought like a citizen, rather than behaving like a dutiful
collectivist drone.
Long before McKay and his colleagues were sequestered to

deliberate the charges against Scott Molens, it was clear that
the prosecution's case was less substantial than the reflected
shadow of a boiled ghost.
Yet McKay, who could have -- and should have -- either built a
coalition for acquittal or hung the jury, meekly submitted to the
reflexive punitive instincts of the majority.
"I think some of the people that were [on the jury], I think they
had decided that he was guilty pretty early on and there was
really no reasoning with them about that," McKay recalls.
An appropriate word to describes that attitude is "prejudice"; a

better one might be "bigotry," a term describing a prejudice
that has made itself entirely impervious to evidence. That is a
perfectly suitable term to describe an unreasoning
determination to convict a defendant irrespective of the
evidence. McKay is an engineer by training; his professional
credo is "In God we trust; everybody else bring your data."
As jury foreman, McKay was ethically required to make every

effort to overcome the bigotry of his fellow jurors using the
tools of rational thought provided to him by his academic
training and innate intelligence.
Rather than distinguishing himself by standing fast in defense of

an indispensable principle -- namely, that the state has to prove
its case against the accused -- McKay sought refuge in the
consensus of the collective: "I remember ... we had gone I

think several hours in deliberation and a few of us were dug in

[on behalf of acquittal] and the guilty people were adamant that
he was guilty ... I was thinking, well, man, eight other people
say that he's guilty so where am I, what am I missing here?"
I cannot recall ever being exposed to a more perfect specimen

of collectivist thought. Here was a man sufficiently intelligent
and perceptive to recognize that the prosecution had failed to
prove its case, yet his faculty for rational action was preempted
by the irresistible need to conform -- even at the price of an
innocent man's freedom.
Confronted with a prosecution that couldn't muster a

substantive case, McKay focused not on the state's missing
evidence, but rather on his own supposed delinquency for
failing to see things the way the State required him to.
To someone capable of exercising a modicum of critical thought,

the grounds for reasonable doubt were so abundant as to
suggest that the prosecution of Scott Molen was an act of
deliberate, conscious malice.
The abuse of Molen's step-granddaughter supposedly began in

2004, when the child was eight years old. During a sleep-over
with friends in June 2005, the girl made comments that were
construed as "disclosure" of sexual abuse.
In short order she was interviewed by Boise Police Officer

Tammy Kennedy, who reported that the girl had described
multiple sexual contacts, including up to a dozen instances of
full intercourse.
The original audiotape of that interview, however, was

conveniently lost. Although Kennedy's report -- which contained
adult sexual expressions not likely to have fallen from the
mouth of an 8-year-old girl, however carnally precocious -- was
dated June 2005, it strongly resembles the CARES interview in
both tone and substance; this is significant since Kennedy's
report wasn't filed until after the CARES interview.
Furthermore, during the trial the child repudiated much of what

she had supposedly told Officer Kennedy, and at one point
suggested that she needed Kennedy's help to "remember"
certain things she had allegedly disclosed.
The initial physical examination of the child failed to turn up

conclusive evidence of assault rape, which was the charge
initially listed by Officer Kennedy. The CARES nurse reported
that the child's genitals appeared to display injuries "suggestive
of blunt force penetrating trauma often seen in sexual abuse."
However, the results of a a more detailed examination using a
specialized instrument called a colposcope were withheld from
the defense for two years; it wasn't until well into the trial that
this critical physical evidence was obtained through subpoena.

During his rebuttal testimony on behalf of the defense, Dr.

Edward Friedlander, chairman of the Department of Pathology
at Kansas City University College of Osteopathic Medicine,
evaluated the colposcopic images. His conclusion was that they
depicted the anatomy of a child who was a "perfectly intact
virgin," rather than one who had been forcibly violated ten or
twelve times, as the prosecution had alleged.
Scott was never put under arrest prior to his conviction, which
is a curious oversight if he were the kind of bipedal predator
who molests little girls. A search warrant for his home was
returned to the court without being executed, an oddity that
suggests, once again, that investigators didn't really consider
Scott a credible suspect. Yet the prosecution -- an apparatus
designed to secure convictions, not to pursue a true and just
verdict -- continued its plodding, relentless assault.
As almost always happens in cases of this kind, Scott was

approached by the prosecutor with a "deal": If he had been
willing to admit to unspecified criminal "misconduct" with the
child, he would be given a "lenient" sentence -- six months to a
year behind bars -- with assurances that his life would not be
ruined by having his name placed on the sex offender registry.
As he was guilty of exactly nothing, Scott turned down the
"deal," most likely prompting the prosecution to exert itself to
make an example of him.
Convicted on a single count of "lewd and lascivious conduct with

a child," Scott will not come up for parole for several more
years -- and he won't be granted parole unless he not only is
willing to admit to a crime he clearly didn't commit, but passes
a lie detector test to demonstrate that he believes that he
committed the crime.
"Scott spends his time in prison in the company of people who

really did vile, disgusting things like the ones he was falsely
accused of," his wife Connie told Pro Libertate. "Among
themselves, they're completely open in admitting what they did.
Some of them even brag about how all they have to do is to
admit their offenses and they can be paroled and go out and
commit the same crimes all over again. And Scott will stay in
prison just as long as the system can hold him, because he
never did those awful things and will never tell the lies the
system demands of him."
Ken McKay, the jury foreman who now admits Molen's evidence,
was entirely willing to endorse and sustain the lies of the
system that stole Molen's freedom. Despite knowing that the
case assembled by Prosecutor Justin Whatcott was entirely
spurious, McKay was willing to stand in the jury box and read a
guilty verdict he knew to be unjust while looking his victim in
the eye.

There are crimes of passion, of calculation, of opportunity. The

imprisonment of Scott Molen reflects the professional depravity
of Whatcott and his comrades, to be sure, but it was made
possible by a crime of cowardice committed in the jury room.
__________________
Thomas Jefferson

Grigg
08-18-2009 08:38 PM

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COPWATCH.com Forum - Man convicted in 1970 cop killing gets new trial
TYRANNY > Man convicted in 1970 cop killing gets new trial
Author Thread
Vigilance Man convicted in 1970 cop killing gets new trial

Senior Member
Man convicted in 1970 cop killing gets new trial
http://www.startribune.com/local/27...L7PQLanchO7DiUF
The Minnesota Supreme Court today reversed the conviction of

Larry L. Clark in the ambush slaying of St. Paul police officer James
Sackett.
Associated Press
Last update: August 28, 2008 - 5:16 PM

Location:
Posts: 915
ST. PAUL, Minn. - The Minnesota Supreme Court reversed the

conviction of a man charged in the ambush slaying of a St. Paul

police officer in 1970 and ordered a new trial.
The court ruled Thursday that a Ramsey County District judge gave
improper instructions to the jury two years ago about testimony
from an accomplice of Larry L. Clark.
The court ruled the judge should have instructed the jury that
under Minnesota law a criminal conviction cannot be based on the
uncorroborated testimony of an accomplice.
It's generally up to the jury to determine whether accomplice

testimony was properly validated at trial.
"We ... conclude that reversal of Clark's conviction is necessary in

the case to ensure fairness and integrity of the judicial process,"
according to the majority opinion. "Accordingly we hold that the
court committed plain error when it failed to give the accomplice
jury instruction and that Clark's convictions must therefore be
reversed on this basis."
A spokeswoman for the Ramsey County attorney's office could not

comment Thursday morning as she had not read the verdict.
Clark was convicted in 2006 of first-degree premeditated murder

while aiding another and was sentenced to life in prison. He was 55
at the time.
During the trial, prosecutors portrayed Clark as the right-hand man

of Ronald Reed, who was convicted two months earlier of first-
degree murder and conspiracy charges.
Prosecutors argued that Reed and Clark, who are black, wanted to
kill a white police officer to impress the national leadership of the
Black Panther Party.
The evidence showed Officer James Sackett was lured to a St. Paul
address on May 22, 1970, by a fake emergency call, then shot in
the chest from a distance.
The accomplice testimony in question before the Supreme Court

was from Reed's former girlfriend, Constance Trimble-Smith.
She testified that at Reed's urging she made the fake emergency
call that lured Sackett to his death. Trimble-Smith testified they
then drove straight to Clark's house — just 102 yards from the
crime scene — where Clark was waiting outside in a raincoat.
In the majority opinion, the justices noted that the details of

Trimble-Smith's account of the events of that night had changed
between her testimony to a grand jury and during Reed's and
Clark's trials.
In a dissent, Justice Alan Page argued that without Trimble-Smith's

testimony there wasn't enough evidence to convict Clark. "I would

reverse Clark's conviction outright and not remand for a new trial,"
he wrote.
She testified that at Reed's urging she made the fake emergency
call that lured Sackett to his death. Trimble-Smith testified they
then drove straight to Clark's house — just 102 yards from the
crime scene — where Clark was waiting outside in a raincoat.
In the majority opinion, the justices noted that the details of

Trimble-Smith's account of the events of that night had changed
between her testimony to a grand jury and during Reed's and
Clark's trials.
In a dissent, Justice Alan Page argued that without Trimble-Smith's

testimony there wasn't enough evidence to convict Clark. "I would
reverse Clark's conviction outright and not remand for a new trial,"
he wrote.
08-28-2008 08:59 PM

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COPWATCH.com Forum - Foreigners imperil justice, the jury system, and America at large
TYRANNY > Foreigners imperil justice, the jury system, and America at large
Author Thread
Mack Foreigners imperil justice, the jury system, and America at large
Assistant Moderator
April 20, 2008

Diversity Is Strength: It's Also Extended Crime Families, Tax Fraud,
And Hung Juries
By Steve Sailer
http://vdare.com/sailer/080420_diversity.htm
All this millennium, I've been banging on in VDARE.com about the

Registered: Jul 2003 links between immigration and crime families. But even I was
Location:
Posts: 5215
surprised when I ended up on the jury in a trial that so perfectly
exemplified what I've been saying that it sounds like I made it up.
Although this tax fraud trial in downtown Los Angeles was a VDARE.
com column come to life, one thing I did learn was that you don't

have to be a criminal mastermind to make millions in white-collar

crime.
The scam was incredibly simple. Get licensed as a car dealer and
buy a used car lot. Sell an old car for, say, $10,000 plus the $825
in sales tax, but send the state of California only $412.50,
pocketing the other $412.50.
Repeat until rich.
Unlike on Law & Order, real trials are not crackerjack battles of
wits. This one plodded on for a couple of weeks, but it did get more
amusing when the defense went on the offense.
The defendant was an Iranian immigrant with a shaved head and a

goatee. He lived in Orange County's idyllic seaside suburb of San
Clemente.
The colorless prosecutors laboriously demonstrated that charged

man had legally registered himself as president and owner of a
used car lot in a Latino part of the vast LA megalopolis. Over a
three-year period, his dealership had collected $4 million dollars in
sales tax from customers, but had only sent $2 million on to the
state, thus stealing $2 million, tax-free.
Brilliant, no?
There was just one little flaw in the accused’s otherwise perfect
plan: lots of other people had tried to pull this same fast one since
California started collecting sales tax in 1933. So the state
government employs accountants who check up on businesses to
make sure they are forwarding all the sales tax. The auditors kept
asking the CEO and his bookkeeper, another Iranian, why,
according to the tax records they had sent the state, all the used
cars had been sold for just a fraction of their Kelley Blue Book
values.
Eventually, the dealership had gone out of business and now the
CEO was in the dock.
So, maybe it wasn't such a perfect plot, but … Whose scheme was
it, anyway?
The preening defense attorney's claim was that, well, sure, his
client had signed all sorts of official documents proclaiming himself
to be the owner and chief executive of the car lot, but he wasn't
really the man in charge.
See, the defendant was just fronting for his brother-in-law, who
actually ran the business while the defendant was merely
responsible for deciding what repairs should be done on the cars
and which repair shops would do it. This hidden partner paid the
defendant $60,000 per year in salary, while he kept all the profits.
The defense passed around 8" by 10" glossies of the new house on

a golf course in San Clemente that the brother-in-law had built and
decorated for himself and his wife, the defendant's sister.
And decorated is the operative word. A year later, I was reminded

of this gaudy Persian palace when I saw South Park's parody of
300, the hit movie about the Battle of Thermopylae. In it, the
invading Persians, dressed in gold chains, silk shirts, and designer
sunglasses, want to take over South Park and redecorate the Les
Bos bar with the kind of "customized Gucci accessories which only a
Persian would think were cool."
Meanwhile, we learned from the defense, the poor defendant had to

make do living in the 2400 square foot home he had long owned in
San Clemente (market value at the time: seven figures).
The defense put on the stand the defendant's siblings to talk about
how he was "just a simple man" who, back in Iran, had merely
graduated from high school. (That, by the way, would make him
above average among Los Angeles Unified School District students).
He could never come up with or operate such a sophisticated
swindle himself.
So why the charade?
Because, we learned from the defense's own witnesses, the

defendant's brother-in-law was a notorious crook, with such a long
history of fraud that he wasn't allowed to work in the used car
business anymore. (Think about that for a second.)
Where, you might ask, is the genius brother-in-law now?
Well, after about a year and a half of the state sales tax auditors
questioning the nominal CEO, the hidden partner had fled back to
Iran. (Just before making a run for the border, he took out long-
term leases on five new cars, and then sold them for cash.) The U.
S., not surprisingly, doesn't have an operative extradition treaty
with Iran, so he's home free.
The defendant's sister, the abandoned wife of the fugitive hidden

partner, lamented on the witness stand how she had to sell the new
house and move with her two children into the house owned by her
brother. Her parents were already living there, so now there are six
people sharing merely 2400 square feet! (And not on a golf course
either, let me add.)
The defendant's older brother, a CPA with an MBA, explained that

he had decided during the used car lot's first year of operation to
wash his hands of keeping their books.
In the closing arguments, the defense asserted that the defendant

was the real victim. The prosecution pointed out that he had
admitted on the witness stand to having knowingly signed the legal
documents taking responsibility for the dealership.

Clearly, the arrested man wasn't the prime mover in the crime, but
equally clearly, he had made the crime possible by taking legal
responsibility for his con man brother-in-law's surreptitious return
to the used car business.
If you don't want to do the time, then don't sign on the line.
Being on a jury for a long trial is a strange experience because you

aren't allowed to talk about the trial while it's going on. You finally
get into the jury room and find out that … your fellow jurors just
don't get it.
The vote was 11-1 for acquittal from the beginning and it stayed
that way to the end three days later when a hung jury was
declared. I made sure the defendant could never say he had been
acquitted, but that was all the satisfaction I could get out of the
experience.
Why did 11 jurors vote to acquit?
First, dullness. Many didn't have the mental capability to synthesize

into a coherent narrative of cause and effect the pointillist data that
emerges over the protracted course of a trial. White-collar crime
cases, where many of the witnesses are auditors, are particularly
tedious, disjointed, and, by their very nature, misleading. Nobody
else on the jury had figured out during two weeks of testimony
what was going on.
Second, laziness. Nobody else saw it as his or her duty to figure out
what the story was. If the prosecution didn't explain it to them well
enough for them to understand it, they weren't going to think about
it.
Third, bias. Several of the jurors were immigrants themselves, and

the most energetic spokesman for the defendant, a Bulgarian
immigrant, turned out to be a used car dealer himself! He seemed
to take the whole case rather personally.
Fourth, guilt. Southern California's economy increasingly runs on

cash transactions that the taxman isn't supposed to hear about. In
an outstanding July 20, 2003 article in the Los Angeles Times
Magazine, Undermining American Workers, veteran newspaperman
Fred Dickey recounted:
"In April, I shopped for a contractor to paint my house trim. I got

three bids. One was for $1,600, about $400 less than the others.
The only condition was that payment be in cash. That wasn't
remarkable. Is there a Californian alive who doesn't know they can
pay under the table for cheap immigrant labor? You pay cash. There
are no checks. There is no tax record."
Dickey noted:
"But this bargain didn't come from an undocumented worker. It

came from an established businessman with good references. … He

vented: 'If I'm going to stay in business, I have to do what the
illegals do. They never pay taxes, on profits or on their employees'
pay. Right there, I'm at a 20% disadvantage.'"
In Los Angeles, immigrant businessmen from the Middle East (like

the defendant) and from ex-Communist countries (like the
Bulgarian juror) are particularly inclined toward the gray market.
They come from countries where you can't trust the government to
enforce contracts fairly. You can only trust your family. So, you
bring your whole family to America and keep operating just like you
did in the Old Country.
The size of the untaxed economy is big and growing. Dickey wrote
in 2003:
"A study last year by the Economic Roundtable, a Los Angeles

research group, found that the underground sector in Southern
California probably accounts for 20% or more of the economy, says
economist Dan Flaming, author of the report."
The newsman pointed out that this plays a large role in the state
government's recurrent fiscal disasters (and, by the way, there is a
new one now underway in California right now):
"As the underground sector surged in the '90s, an unpleasant

snowball began to gather mass. The amount of tax revenues
generated by the economy didn't keep pace with the population
growth and accompanying rise in demands for government
services."
Having served on this jury, I'm not at all surprised that California is
Ground Zero of subprime disaster that's taking our country into
recession. To a significant extent, it’s driven by mortgage fraud.
Diversity is strength, as we all know, but it’s also fraud—and a
failing jury system.
__________________
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generally."

misconduct.

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COPWATCH.com Forum - Convicted rapist released after "jury investigation" is exposed:
TYRANNY > Convicted rapist released after "jury investigation" is exposed:
Author Thread
GC Marciano Convicted rapist released after "jury investigation" is exposed:

Rape trial jurors ran tests on underwear

By Nick Britten
Last Updated: 1:49am BST 31/07/2007
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...31/nrape131.xml
A man convicted of rape three days ago was released from jail
yesterday after it emerged that jury members had carried out
their own investigations into the case.
Posts: 9967
Paul Boseley, 22, a former civilian police custody officer, was
convicted on Friday of raping an 18-year-old foreign student.

Much of the case centred on the alleged victim's torn

underwear, and it emerged yesterday that the jury had
bought five pairs of similar knickers and tested them in
the jury room to see how easily they would tear.
Yesterday, when Boseley was brought before the court for

sentencing, Judge David McEvoy revealed that after the trial, a
juror asked an usher to dispose of the underwear.
He told Worcester Crown Court: "They bought a pack of five

knickers. One is torn. They had been trying the strength of
knickers and comparing them with knickers in this case.
"The jurors said they had been conscientious, but they decided
the case on evidence not before the court."
The judge also said two sketches of him, drawn by one juror
during the trial, were found in a waste paper basket in the jury
room.
Judge McEvoy released Boseley on bail until today, when he will

be sentenced. He is expected to launch an immediate appeal.
Nicolas Cartwright, defending, told the judge: "The case turned

on the knickers and the damage done to them. The jury had
been conducting their own scientific experiments. There seem
to be good grounds for appeal."
Judge McEvoy agreed: "I think the appeal will be allowed and
the conviction quashed."
The court heard that Boseley met the Slovakian teenager in a

Worcester nightclub last December, after which they went back
to his home where he allegedly raped her, commenting:
"Welcome to England." Boseley claimed they had consensual
sex.
The prosecution said they would consider a retrial if an appeal is

successful.
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COPWATCH.com Forum - Jefferson plagued by jury no-shows (KY)
TYRANNY > Jefferson plagued by jury no-shows (KY)
Author Thread
Navigatr1 Jefferson plagued by jury no-shows (KY)

Extended Sabatical
Sunday, July 22, 2007
Jefferson plagued by jury no-shows

Registered: Jul 2003 Many summonses sent to wrong addresses
Location: http://www.courier-journal.com/apps.../707220484/1008
Posts: 31403
By Jason Riley
jriley@courier-journal.com
The Courier-Journal
Nearly 2,300 people from across Jefferson County were sent

summonses for jury duty in May, but fewer than 500 showed up.

For about 1,000 of these no-shows, the state had the wrong
addresses.
That has led the Commission on Racial Fairness to investigate

whether the bad lists contribute to an underrepresentation of
African Americans on Jefferson County's civil and criminal juries.
The lists for each county are taken from tax return rolls, lists of
registered voters and driver's licenses and are compiled by the
state Administrative Office of the Courts.
"We are just not reaching people because we don't have the proper
addresses we need," said Chief Circuit Court Judge Denise Clayton,
who is heading the fairness commission. "We don't know how many
minority citizens it's impacting."
The commission is tracking the undeliverable summonses by ZIP

code to see whether predominantly minority areas of Jefferson
County are most affected.
"If you can show there's a higher number of undeliverable

(summonses) in the West End, then that would account for why
there aren't as many (black people) coming through the door," said
Appeals Court Judge Thomas Wine, a member of the commission.
In November 2005, a Courier-Journal review of one year of jury

data found that residents from Jefferson County's largely black ZIP
codes were less likely to serve in a jury pool than people from
predominantly white ZIP codes.
Earlier this year, a study by the commission of jury trials also found
that African Americans are underrepresented on Jefferson County's
civil and criminal juries.
However, the newspaper found that the rate at which residents

were summoned for jury duty was about the same across Jefferson
County, regardless of where potential jurors lived. And the
newspaper found no major geographic, racial or income differences
in where the undeliverable summonses were being sent.
One reason for the high percentage of undeliverable summonses is

that the AOC has not been removing invalid names and addresses
or adding previously unreachable potential jurors from tax-return
rolls since 2003.
The result is that Jefferson County is wasting thousands of dollars

each month sending hundreds of summonses that can't be
delivered.
"These are bad, bad lists," said Robyne Ryan, the Jefferson County
jury manager. "I don't know how we're getting anyone down here."
Asked why the AOC has not been removing old names and
addresses from the jury lists over the years, Sara Boswell Dent,
with its office of general counsel, said: "It never occurred to

anybody that it should happen. This is a work in progress."
As for why so many addresses for potential jurors in Jefferson

County were wrong, Dent said the AOC "has absolutely no way of
knowing. We are at the mercy of the list provided to us."
Dead sent summonses
The state Board of Elections said it gets its list of registered voters
from the Jefferson County clerk's office, and that list is only as good
as the voters who update the office when they move.
"If they move and never tell us about that, we wouldn't know," said
Sarah Johnson, executive director of the state elections board.
It's the same story for the Transportation Cabinet, where addresses
are updated when, or if, the department is notified.
In May alone, nearly 1,000 of the 2,300 jury summonses sent out
in Jefferson County came back undeliverable, even with sheriff's
deputies going to more than 500 homes of people who didn't show
up for jury duty.
Of those 500, deputies tracked down about 120 people, often at

different addresses. Each summons cost $1.50 to mail. It cost an
additional $3 to send out a warning letter to those who don't appear
for jury duty.
"We have people who moved five to 10 years ago getting

summonsed," Ryan said. "We've had people who died 20 years ago."
Purging, updating lists
One problem with the AOC's master list is that it has not been
purged each year and annual updates have been mixed in with
thousands of old addresses of people who have moved or died,
Clayton said.
"If you have tainted water and you pour clean water in, it doesn't
get clean," Wine said at a recent commission meeting.
Wine said the AOC should purge its entire master list of jurors and
start over with fresh 2007 data.
Dent said the office must maintain the master list -- which contains
about 3.7 million names statewide -- for at least a year, to make
sure no citizens are called to serve jury duty twice within 12
months.
But Dent said that starting in February, the office removed more
than 30,000 names, getting rid of people who had not appeared on
tax-return rolls, lists of registered voters and driver's licenses list
for more than 18 months.
That practice will continue, she said.

Still, the 30,000 names removed is a "fairly insignificant number"

compared with the number of people in Kentucky eligible for jury
duty, about 3.7 million in total.
'I keep getting called'
The Racial Fairness Commission also is concerned that because the

AOC has not been purging the list of old names and addresses,
there may be thousands of duplicate names -- meaning a longtime
Kentucky resident might have several opportunities to get selected
for jury duty.
But Dent said that when the AOC merges the updated information
with the names already in the master lists, the older duplicate
names are removed.
James Mattingly is not so sure. Mattingly, a Jefferson County

resident for more than 50 years, said he is baffled as to why he has
been called for jury duty five times.
"I've got relatives and friends that have never been down there
once," he said. "I have no clue why I kept getting called. I've done
my civic duty and I never want to go back."
Tax-return rolls
In 2002, state law expanded its jury summons lists to include tax-
return rolls.
But after getting complaints that juveniles were being summoned

for jury duty -- because juveniles who work must file tax returns --
the AOC decided in January 2003 to exclude Department of
Revenue names from the master list.
In May of this year, however, Chief Justice Joseph Lambert said in a

memo to judges and clerks that after recently revisiting the issue,
the AOC had returned to using Department of Revenue names – an
addition of more than 63,000 potential jurors statewide.
The addition of these names to the master jury lists "will allow
juries to better represent the state's population," Lambert wrote.
Reporter Jason Riley can be reached at (502) 582-4727.
__________________
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COPWATCH.com Forum - The Jury system has been gutted
TYRANNY > The Jury system has been gutted
Author Thread
jselvy The Jury system has been gutted

Member
I believe that the jury system as it is currently in place is ultimately

Registered: Jun 2007 futile.
Location:
Posts: 47
Since the trial of the Branch Davidian Members it has become
accepted practice for a judge to overrule a jury.
The jury in this case returned a Not-Guilty verdict and was
overrruled by the presiding judge making a mockery of the jury
system.
This completely destroys any form of jury nullification, the whole

point of being tried by your peers. If anyone needs a definition of
jury nullification let me know.

06-04-2007 10:30 PM
GC Marciano Some opinions and dissenting opinions regarding Jury

Copwatcher Extraordinaire Nullification...
Interesting reading.
http://home.earthlink.net/~dlaw70/jurnul.htm
__________________
Registered: Jul 2003 "The purpose and the principal effect of posting information about bad cops
Location: Chicago, Illinois on the Internet is to inform the public for its own safety, not to humiliate the
Posts: 9967 officer. Even if the collateral effect of the Internet posting is to shame the
Court
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07-10-2007 01:24 AM

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COPWATCH.com Forum - Jury selection
TYRANNY > Jury selection
Author Thread
snarnuke Jury selection

Junior Member
In my County at least, juries are selected by the prosecution and

the judge. One woman was accepted even though her son was a
cop on the case before the court. In Placer County Ca. the juries
Registered: Oct 2006 are loaded by the justice dept employees for the desired outcome
Location: of the trial, period.
Posts: 25
12-06-2006 05:25 PM

liberranter If there were really such a thing as a "justice" system in any

Super Moderator state in this country, what you just described would not only be
automatic grounds for a mistrial in every case where this
practice went on, it would also result in the impeachment and
removal from the bench of all prosecutors and judges involved
in the practice.
__________________
Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 5865
Grigg
12-07-2006 12:57 AM
dr pepper I don't know how they pick the juries here where I live, either by
Senior Member voting registration or driver license. I never get picked and some
people I know get picked over and over again.
Location: When they were making a jury selection on one case, both
Posts: 138 attorneys asked the potential jurors if they knew the accused, had
they heard anything about the alleged crime, how did they come to
know about it, and a bunch of question like that.
Juries can work for or against a person but I doubt people ever
have a "jury of their peers" decide their fate.
12-08-2006 07:40 AM

liberranter The problem with the entire justice [sic] system is that the
Super Moderator judiciary is an arm of the State. While this may not be a factor
in the outcome of most civil lawsuits (two citizens suing one
another), it creates terrible havoc and miscarriage of justice in
criminal cases, particularly in cases where the rights of the
accused have been violated by agents of the State. Far from
being impartial, judges, in particular, are almost always openly
biased in favor of the prosecution (i.e., the State). This is only
logical since judges themselves are employees of the State and
therefore will never seriously bite the hand that feeds them.

The only way for true justice to be served is through an
Location: Tucson, AZ independent, private, and impartial body that is neither an
Posts: 5865 agency of the State nor under the sole employ of the defense.
Much like an arbitration panel that resolves labor disputes, this
body would be truly neutral in resolving disputes (for example,
jurors would not automatically be excluded from serving if they
know or are related to someone who has either been arrested,
imprisoned, or victimized by the police, as is the case in state-
controlled voire-dire processes).
__________________
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Grigg
12-08-2006 01:36 PM


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COPWATCH.com Forum - Is the jury system doomed? If so, why?
TYRANNY > Is the jury system doomed? If so, why?
Author Thread
Regicide Is the jury system doomed? If so, why?

Senior Member
A REALISTIC LOOK AT THE ASSAULT ON THE JURY SYSTEM

Registered: Oct 2003 By Hereward T. Wake
Location: Our Town, USA
Posts: 298 http://www.nationalpolicyinstitute....e.php?PostID=80
The right to trial by jury is an old Anglo Saxon institution that was
derived from the customs of the ancient Germanic tribes (including
the Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Frisians and Danes who settled in
England). It was formalized by demand of the Norman Barons at
Runnymede in the early 13th Century.
This Anglo Saxon institution was part of the English Common Law,
which was adopted by the United States at the time this nation was
first established.

It served the nation well for the first two centuries of its existence.
Since then, it has come under assault from powerful forces bent
upon greatly curtailing the right to trial by jury in certain instances.
Why has this come about in recent times?
First of all, the jury system was conceived and designed to function
in a homogenous (Anglo Saxon) society. As long as our society was
a predominantly Anglo Saxon society it apparently worked fairly
well. As northern European influence upon society weakened and
non-European minorities began to serve on juries in large numbers
in the big cities of America, jury verdicts became less
understandable to the majority of our society. It remains to be seen
whether the jury system can function as originally intended in a
polyglot society with competing minority interests and agendas.
The initial assault on the jury system was begun under the banner
of tort reform, mainly in medical malpractice cases, but it is unlikely
that it will end there. There are two reasons for this. First, the most
celebrated outrageous monetary verdicts have been returned in tort
cases. These verdicts, although generally limited to large urban
areas with a high percentage of minority jurors, have caught the
attention of the professional and small business owning classes and
combined with soaring insurance rates have caused concern. Thus,
there is widespread support among this class for “tort reform”.
The second and more likely the real driving reason behind the tort
reform movement is that being exposed to minority jurors who
have no real feeling of affinity with or vested interests in big
business poses the greatest financial threat to the elites who
influence, if not control, American public policy. These elites have
been able to insulate themselves from increasing crime rates to a
certain degree with gated communities and ranches in Wyoming.
They have insulated their children from the minority ridden failing
public educational system by sending them to private schools. They
can live lives mostly unaffected by the policies they have saddled
middle America with which have resulted in lost jobs, decaying
neighborhoods, crumbling health care systems overwhelmed by
uninsured aliens, rising crime rates and declining lifestyles. But,
when faced with jurors with uncontrolled power to call them to
account for the actions of their agents and employees, they face the
only remaining exposure which can significantly affect their secure
position in our society. Although the ruling elites are quite willing to
allow the country to be overrun with third-world immigrants in
order to take advantage of the availability of cheap labor, they are
unwilling to allow these people to have any power over them in the
courts. They would much rather trust their fate to a judge
(preferably a political appointee) than to alienated non-whites with
their own agenda for the corporate world.
These elites do not perceive crime as any real threat to them, so

they are perfectly willing to allow the right to jury trial to be
expanded to ridiculous levels in criminal matters while at the same

time moving heaven and earth to erode and restrict the same rights
in civil cases where they are more likely to have exposure. The
average American however has been affected by juries in criminal
cases much more than the elites. Time after time, minority
criminals have been released and allowed to prey upon society
again after jury trials resulted in hung juries because one or two
black jurors refuse to convict a “brother” who the remaining jurors
were convinced were guilty as charged. If crime ever begins to
significantly affect the ruling elites, then the assault on juries in
criminal cases will begin in full force. Until then, it will most
probably be focused on civil tort actions.
It should be noted that claims for racial or sexual torts have been
carefully excluded thus far from any move to limit the right to trial
by jury, even though these are the two areas which are the most
likely to result in an unreasoned jury verdict based more on the
sympathies and emotions of some jurors than on the law and the
facts of the case. These types of claims are viewed sympathetically
as furthering the agenda of the elites, although this may change as
more and more large corporations are held for ransom on charges
of racial and sexual discrimination.
In summary, as the international corporate elite and their hirelings

now basically direct American society for their own interests (which
are for the most part antagonistic to the interests of the majority of
the nation’s citizens), we will most likely see a continued assault on
the jury system in the future. Only a massive grass roots opposition
campaign can have any change of blunting this assault. Such a
campaign has had very little history of success in America in the
past and probably has only a small chance of success now. Even if
it were to succeed, the question that must be asked is whether the
jury system is even feasible in the multi-racial, multi-cultural
society which the ruling elite have ordained for America’s future.
05-10-2006 11:53 PM
ralphy For the most part. Jury trials are soo backed up that you are not
Junior Member allowed the right to a speedy trial.
Registered: Oct 2006 Futhermore. In my previous state. Without a lawyer you do not
Location: know your exact court date. You MUST show up to court week,
Posts: 9 every three months. Maybe in a year or two you'll get a jury trial.
Or the case will just be dropped.
Even if you live out of state. You must travel back to the court room
to sit for a week! Not much different that some type of jail/work
release program.
Blackmail. All of this for a minor traffic ticket that would have cost
me less than 100.00. I am not gulity of the crime and will stand up
for whats right.

10-14-2006 07:54 PM
liberranter Originally posted by ralphy

Super Moderator
For the most part. Jury trials are soo backed up that you
are not allowed the right to a speedy trial.
Further evidence of the government's criminalization of more

and more normal human behavior, resulting in clogged court
dockets and grotesque miscarriages of justice.
Blackmail. All of this for a minor traffic ticket that would

have cost me less than 100.00. I am not gulity of the
crime and will stand up for whats right.
Location: Tucson, AZ Good! Show these thieves that using the traffic "law" to raise
Posts: 5865
revenue is hopelessly counterproductive and expensive once
citizens begin exercising their rights.
__________________
Thomas Jefferson

Grigg
10-14-2006 10:21 PM

Liongait
Probably a Cop
This is an excellent thread!
Go.d-damn rights!(ALthough, my court cases would never give me
the benefit of a trial by Jury, unless I went and committed "the
unspeakable")
I've just learned something familiar, here, in that, that word, is/was
called= "Black Mail", you know I've heard it before, but the
underlying situation- with Ralphy- is almost exactly what I've been
dealing with for over the last year and a half,(a bit more serious
than a parking ticket- yet I'm guilty of it) in the same way, that I've
Registered: Nov 2006 had to spend all of this extra time in and out of the court room (for
Location: Victoria, Canada
whatever amusement's sake of the Judges) through and unnerving
Posts: 118
act of protecting myself from being taken into custody (it seems
like again and again or an eternity to see Justice's Fate play out)
from an 'Out-standing Warrant' a 'no-show' of my Public Taxpayer
Paid for Legal Aide Lawyer whose- went on vacation (it was said, )
that some-how, my file 'went missing'. Hence, the lame portion of
spending extra time sorting through my brain- 'the suspence' of
whether or not the Judge wants to throw me in. (Even though you
know it's not my responsibility) Someone was representing me,
they know this, but yet they have to have that presence to make it
fiduciary?
(Meanwhile my bastard Tax-payer paid-for 'Schlemeiling Lawyer'- is
having a fun time in the Cayman Islands!!_
I as said before I've been out on bail since December 2004, and
since this time, the bail orders have changed their status, my
lawyers have changed their status- but the main function of these
Bail Orders is, that, I'M STILL OUT ON BAIL!!
This long, the trial that I'm facing right at this moment from when
my lawyer skipped town on me, at the end of Aug. the Trial Date
was Originally set for a fixed-date of October 5th. But now, the
confirmation trial-date once again, has been set for Feb. 13th,
2007, following when I show-up (it's a good idea, since
'Schlemeiling Schmuck')[nice yiddish talk, n' i'm not even a
yehudi.... lol] then the 'Big Date' is set for March, 14th, 2007.
But since the begining, there were some 'over-laps' of cases that
were relatively similar to my assault case now, but the actual
transition of events was even more constricted than how the courts
were allowing to manage, that even the police- you could see- had
found the power- was above and beyond them here. (Not the
situation you like to face hear, but the good work something of
similarity to the terminology 'Black Mail' is a blood relative of
'BLACKMAIL' who goes by the name of -
"B-L-A-C-K-B-A-L-L"
So I could see that willfully I was seeing the light at the end of the
tunnel, but that light was only an illusion, because in retrospect to
the allegations of Assault that I've been surrounded, the allegations
I'm facing today are actually indeed, called 'Assault', where-fore

previous that I was accused of assault by former neighbours who

lied, and had me 'royally' screwed over if you catch my lingo here
kids you can say it with me... 'R-O-Y-A-L-L-Y' :roll:
There's all these different steps that the lead up to the first stages
of the court battle, 'in which case' there's the 'First Appearance',
then the "Enter a Plea" appearance, then there's the "Confirm Your
Trial Date" appearance... and then "THE BIG TRIAL APPEARANCE"
But nothing like having your lawyer skip town in between... then
you get to start half-way through the entire process again... and
then by the time the warrants outstanding for you.. you go to the
courtrooom..
You get to sit through, some other person's personal misery (and
not get paid for it while you're watching the judge swimming in
cash) and waste a few more hours of uneventful time..
Courts where I live have way too much power in some aspects, and
then oddly when I think of it, not enough... (There's no Death
Penalty/Capital Punishment here)
FYI- Judges aren't elected, in Canada. Jury Trials are few and far
between unless, it's some type of murder trial where you've killed a
lot of people.
http://scenepages.com/imageland/800074.jpg
11-05-2006 01:52 AM
9991 Anglo Law..

Senior Member
..based on 'Evil Thought / Intent' - which in the U.S. is as phantom

Registered: Aug 2006 a policy as speakeasy laws are.
Location:
Posts: 157
The prosecution and the prejudice players in command are playing
the courts, grabbing Defending council by the b@!!s from the get
go..
Protocol constraints on the prosecution during voire dire are

dumped on the desk of the accused so often, the 'worms' are often
bullying and bartering with defendents packed lunch.. "If you're
good, we'll let you eat your apple.."
Juror's are not even informed of the imposed sentences.. Cross

examination during the voire dire by defendents rep is
circumvented by way of 'common law' and constitutional law..
Intriguing perspectives of jurys - here

__________________
"Every man has character... But if you want to see if a man has
integrity, give him power."
11-05-2006 06:52 AM
Liongait The segement- was talking about mental compentency and being
Unregistered / Not Logged In/ tried as someone who is mentally competent to stand trial.
Probably a Cop
This is an illusion (voir dire) on two differents side of the coin.
None of this is specific in the presentation of feelings or complaceny

on both sides of the defence and proscecution.
Mental Compentency, is clearly a defineable way to categorize

somebody, or those actions, to what they are alleged to have
committed.
It's always easy to judge if there are witnesses to a crime, but ask
Posts: 118 yourself what if there is a alleged crime to have happened, that at
the hands of those victims to have made false statements and the
witness are not willing to tell the truth.
What does that entail? "Evil"
Say there are two different bodies that represent, Mentally/Non

Mentally competent (criminals) as seen by the voir dire of which
they face or accused of.
An outside panel who also represents those who indiscriminately

face a 'quick decision' whether to stand trial by a criminal panel or
something that solely places the accused in front of a panel of
Pyschiatric Dr.s' that place the accused into an 'environ-
mental' (friendlier) accomodation- outside of the criminal justice
system and regular penitentiary system. Depending on a choice,
that given the option by the court (which proves competency)
whether to face the Panel of Psychiatrists or a Prosecutor or Judge-
Without having to stand trial.
(I don't think there is an option to have a trial by jury, that give the
mentally uncapacitated that choice)
Common Law is definitive of the current status it provides through

the Law Society by the Legislative Bodies that Governs within.
The supreme decision- of being classified insane- is something

which is put into the public trust that has to be ultimately decided
by a cognetive professional- who by that protocol- proves this
diagnosis- without superficial discrimination of the accused.
The inner bureacracy, the 'turn-over' rate to file these charges on

simple levels of law, minor crimes in lesser comparison to more

serious in nature crimes, of which the system profits.
11-06-2006 12:31 AM
Liongait I've been told before- "You can eat your cake, but you can't have it
Unregistered / Not Logged In/ too.."
Probably a Cop

Posts: 118
11-06-2006 12:44 AM
Liongait [i]Or something to that extent...[/i} I sometimes forget some of

Unregistered / Not Logged In/ these witty anglo-saxon hyperboles.
Probably a Cop
I think the exact saying is- 'You can't eat your cake, and have it
too'...

Posts: 118
11-06-2006 12:55 AM
9991 quote:
Senior Member
It's always easy to judge if there are witnesses to a
Registered: Aug 2006 crime, but ask yourself what if there is a alleged crime
Location: to have happened, that at the hands of those victims to
Posts: 157 have made false statements and the witness are not
willing to tell the truth.
This happens often.. 'Especially' to rape victims.. To quote

Psychologists who specialize in this topic, "The reason for inaccurate

ID's from rape victims, is because they are always in 'survivor

mode'.."
Again.. I have all these documents 'somewhere' on my computer..
__________________
11-06-2006 08:05 PM
9991 Fallacious Appeal to Authority..

Senior Member
Ouch!
Location: I am guilty..
Posts: 157
Also Known as: Fallacious Appeal to Authority, Misuse of
Authority, Irrelevant Authority, Questionable Authority,
Inappropriate Authority, Ad Verecundiam
Description of Appeal to Authority

An Appeal to Authority is a fallacy with the following form:
Person A is (claimed to be) an authority on subject S.

Person A makes claim C about subject S.
Therefore, C is true.
This fallacy is committed when the person in question is not a
legitimate authority on the subject. More formally, if person A is not
qualified to make reliable claims in subject S, then the argument
will be fallacious.
This sort of reasoning is fallacious when the person in question is not an expert.
In such cases the reasoning is flawed because the fact that an unqualified person
makes a claim does not provide any justification for the claim. The claim could be
true, but the fact that an unqualified person made the claim does not provide any
rational reason to accept the claim as true.
When a person falls prey to this fallacy, they are accepting a claim as true
without there being adequate evidence to do so. More specifically, the person is
accepting the claim because they erroneously believe that the person making the
claim is a legitimate expert and hence that the claim is reasonable to accept.
Since people have a tendency to believe authorities (and there are, in fact, good
reasons to accept some claims made by authorities) this fallacy is a fairly
common one.
Since this sort of reasoning is fallacious only when the person is not a legitimate
authority in a particular context, it is necessary to provide some acceptable
standards of assessment. The following standards are widely accepted:
The person has sufficient expertise in the subject matter in question.

Claims made by a person who lacks the needed degree of expertise to make a
reliable claim will, obviously, not be well supported. In contrast, claims made by

a person with the needed degree of expertise will be supported by the person's
reliability in the area.
Determining whether or not a person has the needed degree of expertise can
often be very difficult. In academic fields (such as philosophy, engineering,
history, etc.), the person's formal education, academic performance, publications,
membership in professional societies, papers presented, awards won and so forth
can all be reliable indicators of expertise. Outside of academic fields, other
standards will apply. For example, having sufficient expertise to make a reliable
claim about how to tie a shoe lace only requires the ability to tie the shoe lace
and impart that information to others. It should be noted that being an expert
does not always require having a university degree. Many people have high
degrees of expertise in sophisticated subjects without having ever attended a
university. Further, it should not be simply assumed that a person with a degree
is an expert.
Of course, what is required to be an expert is often a matter of great debate. For

example, some people have (and do) claim expertise in certain (even all) areas
because of a divine inspiration or a special gift. The followers of such people
accept such credentials as establishing the person's expertise while others often
see these self-proclaimed experts as deluded or even as charlatans. In other
situations, people debate over what sort of education and experience is needed to
be an expert. Thus, what one person may take to be a fallacious appeal another
person might take to be a well supported line of reasoning. Fortunately, many
cases do not involve such debate.
The claim being made by the person is within her area(s) of expertise.
If a person makes a claim about some subject outside of his area(s) of expertise,
then the person is not an expert in that context. Hence, the claim in question is
not backed by the required degree of expertise and is not reliable.
It is very important to remember that because of the vast scope of human

knowledge and skill it is simply not possible for one person to be an expert on
everything. Hence, experts will only be true experts in respect to certain subject
areas. In most other areas they will have little or no expertise. Thus, it is
important to determine what subject area a claim falls under.
It is also very important to note that expertise in one area does not automatically
confer expertise in another. For example, being an expert physicist does not
automatically make a person an expert on morality or politics. Unfortunately, this
is often overlooked or intentionally ignored. In fact, a great deal of advertising
rests on a violation of this condition. As anyone who watches television knows, it
is extremely common to get famous actors and sports heroes to endorse products
that they are not qualified to assess. For example, a person may be a great actor,
but that does not automatically make him an expert on cars or shaving or
underwear or diets or politics.
There is an adequate degree of agreement among the other experts in the

subject in question.
If there is a significant amount of legitimate dispute among the experts within a
subject, then it will fallacious to make an Appeal to Authority using the disputing
experts. This is because for almost any claim being made and "supported" by one
expert there will be a counterclaim that is made and "supported" by another
expert. In such cases an Appeal to Authority would tend to be futile. In such
cases, the dispute has to be settled by consideration of the actual issues under
dispute. Since either side in such a dispute can invoke experts, the dispute
cannot be rationally settled by Appeals to Authority.
There are many fields in which there is a significant amount of legitimate dispute.
Economics is a good example of such a disputed field. Anyone who is familiar with
economics knows that there are many plausible theories that are incompatible
with one another. Because of this, one expert economist could sincerely claim
that the deficit is the key factor while another equally qualified individual could

assert the exact opposite. Another area where dispute is very common (and well
known) is in the area of psychology and psychiatry. As has been demonstrated in
various trials, it is possible to find one expert that will assert that an individual is
insane and not competent to stand trial and to find another equally qualified
expert who will testify, under oath, that the same individual is both sane and
competent to stand trial. Obviously, one cannot rely on an Appeal to Authority in
such a situation without making a fallacious argument. Such an argument would
be fallacious since the evidence would not warrant accepting the conclusion.
It is important to keep in mind that no field has complete agreement, so some

degree of dispute is acceptable. How much is acceptable is, of course, a matter of
serious debate. It is also important to keep in mind that even a field with a great
deal of internal dispute might contain areas of significant agreement. In such
cases, an Appeal to Authority could be legitimate.
The person in question is not significantly biased.

If an expert is significantly biased then the claims he makes within his are of bias
will be less reliable. Since a biased expert will not be reliable, an Argument from
Authority based on a biased expert will be fallacious. This is because the evidence
will not justify accepting the claim.
Experts, being people, are vulnerable to biases and predjudices. If there is

evidence that a person is biased in some manner that would affect the reliability
of her claims, then an Argument from Authority based on that person is likely to
be fallacious. Even if the claim is actually true, the fact that the expert is biased
weakens the argument. This is because there would be reason to believe that the
expert might not be making the claim because he has carefully considered it
using his expertise. Rather, there would be reason to believe that the claim is
being made because of the expert's bias or prejudice.
It is important to remember that no person is completely objective. At the very

least, a person will be favorable towards her own views (otherwise she would
probably not hold them). Because of this, some degree of bias must be accepted,
provided that the bias is not significant. What counts as a significant degree of
bias is open to dispute and can vary a great deal from case to case. For example,
many people would probably suspect that doctors who were paid by tobacco
companies to research the effects of smoking would be biased while other people
might believe (or claim) that they would be able to remain objective.
The area of expertise is a legitimate area or discipline.

Certain areas in which a person may claim expertise may have no legitimacy or
validity as areas of knowledge or study. Obviously, claims made in such areas will
not be very reliable.
What counts as a legitimate area of expertise is sometimes difficult to determine.

However, there are cases which are fairly clear cut. For example, if a person
claimed to be an expert at something he called "chromabullet therapy" and
asserted that firing painted rifle bullets at a person would cure cancer it would not
be very reasonable to accept his claim based on his "expertise." After all, his
expertise is in an area which is devoid of legitimate content. The general idea is
that to be a legitimate expert a person must have mastery over a real field or
area of knowledge.
As noted above, determining the legitimacy of a field can often be difficult. In

European history, various scientists had to struggle with the Church and
established traditions to establish the validity of their discliplines. For example,
experts on evolution faced an uphill battle in getting the legitimacy of their area
accepted.
A modern example involves psychic phenomenon. Some people claim that they
are certified "master psychics" and that they are actually experts in the field.
Other people contend that their claims of being certified "master psychics" are
simply absurd since there is no real content to such an area of expertise. If these

people are right, then anyone who accepts the claims of these "master psychics"
as true are victims of a fallacious appeal to authority.
The authority in question must be identified.

A common variation of the typical Appeal to Authority fallacy is an Appeal to an
Unnamed Authority. This fallacy is also known as an Appeal to an Unidentified
Authority.
This fallacy is committed when a person asserts that a claim is true because an
expert or authority makes the claim and the person does not actually identify the
expert. Since the expert is not named or identified, there is no way to tell if the
person is actually an expert. Unless the person is identified and has his expertise
established, there is no reason to accept the claim.
This sort of reasoning is not unusual. Typically, the person making the argument
will say things like "I have a book that says...", or "they say...", or "the experts
say...", or "scientists believe that...", or "I read in the paper.." or "I saw on TV..."
or some similar statement. in such cases the person is often hoping that the
listener(s) will simply accept the unidentified source as a legitimate authority and
believe the claim being made. If a person accepts the claim simply because they
accept the unidentified source as an expert (without good reason to do so), he
has fallen prey to this fallacy.
As suggested above, not all Appeals to Authority are fallacious. This is fortunate
since people have to rely on experts. This is because no one person can be an
expert on everything and people do not have the time or ability to investigate
every single claim themselves.
In many cases, Arguments from Authority will be good arguments. For example,
when a person goes to a skilled doctor and the doctor tells him that he has a
cold, then the the patient has good reason to accept the doctor's conclusion. As
another example, if a person's computer is acting odd and his friend, who is a
computer expert, tells him it is probably his hard drive then he has good reason
to believe her.
What distinguishes a fallacious Appeal to Authority from a good Appeal to

Authority is that the argument meets the six conditions discussed above.
In a good Appeal to Authority, there is reason to believe the claim because the
expert says the claim is true. This is because a person who is a legitimate expert
is more likely to be right than wrong when making considered claims within her
area of expertise. In a sense, the claim is being accepted because it is reasonable
to believe that the expert has tested the claim and found it to be reliable. So, if
the expert has found it to be reliable, then it is reasonable to accept it as being
true. Thus, the listener is accepting a claim based on the testimony of the expert.
It should be noted that even a good Appeal to Authority is not an exceptionally

strong argument. After all, in such cases a claim is being accepted as true simply
because a person is asserting that it is true. The person may be an expert, but
her expertise does not really bear on the truth of the claim. This is because the
expertise of a person does not actually determine whether the claim is true or
false. Hence, arguments that deal directly with evidence relating to the claim
itself will tend to be stronger.
Examples of Appeal to Authority
Bill and Jane are arguing about the morality of abortion:

Bill: "I believe that abortion is morally acceptable. After all, a woman should have
a right to her own body."
Jane: "I disagree completely. Dr. Johan Skarn says that abortion is always
morally wrong, regardless of the situation. He has to be right, after all, he is a
respected expert in his field."
Bill: "I've never heard of Dr. Skarn. Who is he?"
Jane: "He's the guy that won the Nobel Prize in physics for his work on cold

fusion."
Bill: "I see. Does he have any expertise in morality or ethics?"
Jane: "I don't know. But he's a world famous expert, so I believe him."
Dave and Kintaro are arguing about Stalin's reign in the Soviet Union. Dave has
been arguing that Stalin was a great leader while Kintaro disagrees with him.
Kintaro: "I don't see how you can consider Stalin to be a great leader. He killed
millions of his own people, he crippled the Soviet economy, kept most of the
people in fear and laid the foundations for the violence that is occuring in much of
Eastern Europe."
Dave: "Yeah, well you say that. However, I have a book at home that says that
Stalin was acting in the best interest of the people. The millions that were killed
were vicious enemies of the state and they had to be killed to protect the rest of
the peaceful citizens. This book lays it all out, so it has to be true."
I'm not a doctor, but I play one on the hit series "Bimbos and Studmuffins in the
OR." You can take it from me that when you need a fast acting, effective and safe
pain killer there is nothing better than MorphiDope 2000. That is my considered
medical opinion.
Siphwe and Sasha are having a conversation:

Sasha: "I played the lottery today and I know I am going to win something."
Siphwe: "What did you do, rig the outcome?"
Sasha: "No, silly. I called my Super Psychic Buddy at the 1-900-MindPower
number. After consulting his magic Californian Tarot deck, he told me my lucky
numbers."
Siphwe: "And you believed him?"
Sasha: "Certainly, he is a certified Californian Master-Mind Psychic. That is why I
believe what he has to say. I mean, like, who else would know what my lucky
numbers are?"
Shouldn't have made 'claim' to be an absolute..
__________________
Last edited by 9991 on 11-07-2006 at 03:53 AM
11-06-2006 11:14 PM
Liongait "In such cases, an Appeal to Authority could be legitimate."

Probably a Cop
Which entirely proves that this 'portrayal of existentialism' is

contradictory.
Assuming all that is stated, not just to be fictional characters as

written above- but real people, in a real world, with real solutions-
to real problems.
Location: Victoria, Canada Assuming all of the above is real, by personal judgements, in the

Posts: 118 guiding spectrum of fundamental ideology, advice given on such

morally prescribed solutions amidst a symposium of brash-thinking,
gullability, towards the false-litany without much scrutiny and vision
for truth?
This unseen- unproven scrutiny- is openly soluble of the ones who

digest- it at their will.
Far from rational guidance- a superficial- creature of will -and trust;

devisive of all that is tangible to the educated minds, eyes and ears,
devolve- their senses- in life.
The only real solution to the moral dilema above, is adjectively

corespondent of endearing the scientific discovery - an expert- a
portrayal of trust by those who collectiely hold the credibility to
show a provisional cortext of sustainability- amongst coordinated
and established trusts.
Preventative measures are something that seeing the right to

evolve and represent oneself in a rightful setting; given or providing
those who are given that right in fairness to 'free speech'?
Could also be exhonerated too, I suppose. Given the appeal process

is allowable, in the time frame coordinated to suit their corrigenda.
_________________________________
Talking about 'her', you could be talking about a lot of people,

either living or dead? Possibly even zombieotized maybe...? I
dunno.. for sure, that the one thing that really has me wondering
why- when pleading guilty- before a trial is almost subduing, or
projected as being dominated.
Simply, the bastard Crown including my own 'taxpayer, bought and

paid for Attorney wouldn't let me even though I was adamantly
saying 'plead not guilty for me you f.uckin' go.ddamn sunnofVa!
(WHich he plead 'guilty'- [I didn't get to say jack s.hit] the previous
trial, then this delayed trial I want to plead guilty- but the new
taxhump paid for Attorney is 'pleading not guilty'.)
The proof is somewhere out there....

An Appeal is a thoughtful process, from what I dream of being a
part of someday, but as these Monarchists have something up their
proscribed sleeve, (and lots of free-pills too) that the self enduring
process takes a lot of time, money, and that other bull..sh.it no-
good excuse for delaying freedom. The ''Common Wealth'' and
"Common Law's"- own standard version of [substantive] "Due
Process". (B.S.)!!!
I also remember the word 'rape' mentioned back at the beginning

and something about 'proof' and paperwork.

What are thou refering too? (The post was a little bit vague in
describing...)
11-07-2006 02:51 AM
Mack Re: Fallacious Appeal to Authority..

Assistant Moderator
quote:
Originally posted by 9991

Fallacious Appeal to Authority, Misuse of
Authority, Irrelevant Authority, Questionable
Authority, Inappropriate Authority, Ad
Verecundiam ..
Location:
Posts: 5215
Great post, 9991. I think that the failure of K-12 schools to teach
rhetoric, argumentation, and logic is part of a deliberate effort on
the part of governmental authorities to ensure that the populace is
incapable of detecting and rejecting the propaganda we're daily
inundated with.
__________________
misconduct
generally."

misconduct.
11-07-2006 03:45 AM

Mack Liongate- I empathize with what you've been through. That said,
Assistant Moderator please take a little more time to compose, proofread, and edit your
posts. I'm sometimes unable to decipher your point.
__________________
misconduct
generally."
Location:
Posts: 5215 Nothing I post constitutes legal advice. My opinions are not necessarily shared by

misconduct.
11-07-2006 03:49 AM
Liongait Okay, fine, long day, btw- there were 2 of the same points. (So I
Unregistered / Not Logged In/ didn't answer the question?
Probably a Cop
You did.
Or pointed it out again, I'll look more into it later...
but plz, 'no empathy.'
Registered: Nov 2006 I was randomly looking at my writing thinking that all I'd written
Location: Victoria, Canada was something that could at best, or maybe the worst be 'poetic'.
Posts: 118
poetic f/kin' justice...
(Is that spelling any better now?)
11-07-2006 04:28 AM

Mack quote:
Assistant Moderator
Originally posted by Liongait
but plz, 'no empathy.'
Amen, brother - we're on the same page. In modern American

society at large, empathy is often counterproductive.
Location:
Posts: 5215
__________________
misconduct
generally."

misconduct.
11-07-2006 04:32 AM
9991 quote:
Senior Member
The only real solution to the moral dilema above,
Registered: Aug 2006 is adjectively corespondent of endearing the
Location: scientific discovery - an expert- a portrayal of
Posts: 157 trust by those who collectiely hold the credibility
to show a provisional cortext of sustainability-
amongst coordinated and established trusts.
.. the priori and posteriori.
A lot of Kant enthusiasts here.
__________________

11-07-2006 04:56 AM
Liongait
Probably a Cop
Good thing for my spelling errors, otherwise (with a few of the
lurking cops on this site) I could have thought, I was being eyed-
down for being a plagiarist something for a second there...
THis Transcendental Thing...
I 'Kant' recall...
Another good book, 'The Western Tradition of Active Meditation'

Posts: 118 I almost recall, something of this person now, although that book
seemed to go on forever. (Changed my life)
11-09-2006 09:47 AM
Liongait No, Mack I hope you don't think, that you might think that I'm
Unregistered / Not Logged In/ refering to you as a 'cop'. (THat would be just plaing dumb..)
Probably a Cop
Being eyed down for my spelling, like I work long enough during
the day that I have to come home and hear it from some one,
who's seemingly that judgemental on 'spelling'..
Holy Spelling Bee's Batman?!

Posts: 118
11-09-2006 09:51 AM
liberranter quote:
Super Moderator
Originally posted by Liongait
Being eyed down for my spelling, like I work

long enough during the day that I have to
come home and hear it from some one, who's
seemingly that judgemental on 'spelling'..
Holy Spelling Bee's Batman?!

Posts: 5865
Nah, no microscope on that here. FWIW, while I'm a stickler for

proper spelling where my own writing is concerned, I'm pretty

liberal with everyone else, especially on a BB-type site such as
this one.
About the only time I ever get worked up over others' spelling
errors in a non-professional/academic environment is if I look at
what they write and just can't figure out for the life of me what
the heck they're trying to say. Fortunately, that rarely ever
happens. I guess when you've studied both multiple foreign
languages and cryptology at various points in your life, it's easy
to read through other people's writing and understand the
points they're making, no matter how unorthodox the form it
takes.
__________________
Thomas Jefferson

Grigg
11-09-2006 02:30 PM
Liongait Oh, I succintly agree, sometimes I have that issue with some
Unregistered / Not Logged In/ mispellings, and sure I blame the h4x0rz and the fact that you or
Probably a Cop whoever hosts the site, uses anti-virus programming, (I don't)
however I feel that somewhere there is an impact between interweb
communique that has an over-all effect on how the keyboard,
[including hand and eye coordination] will ultimately show proof to
the intricately type- face assimilation of data printed through
keyboard software word processing between- integration and
extrication formatting- anti-spyware vs. anti-virus protection;
without the two, my 'X, Y, and Z' coordinances are visually
imparative, to common mistakes, but more likely with newer
Registered: Nov 2006 updated sites that operate with anti-virus protection.
Posts: 118 All of my writing is my own self-practiced, self-willed and self-
projected ability by not using any typing enhanced programming
that corrects, spelling or grammatical errors.

Sometimes I get lucky, sometimes, I hit it dead on, other times,

I'm being h4x0r3d!!!
But sometimes I am tired, and I do admit to- mispelling- 'dilemma'.
Okay, you happy now?
C-I-R-U-S
11-12-2006 05:31 AM

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TYRANNY > Is the jury system doomed? If so, why?
Author Thread
Liongait But you know what the best thing for me at this very moment
Unregistered / Not Logged In/ would be?
Probably a Cop
Is some of the latest Adobe version 'something' out there, that with
my busy lifestyle; would let me scan my documents- then translate
them, without me typing or having to type a single freckin' word.
Ahhh... that would be so nice....

Location: Victoria, Canada *sigh
Posts: 118

11-12-2006 05:37 AM

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COPWATCH.com Forum - Blackmail via wasting your time
TYRANNY > Blackmail via wasting your time
Author Thread
ralphy Blackmail via wasting your time

Junior Member
Just got a good lesson on how Superior court works in Georgia.

Location:
Plead not guilty and request a jury trail. A year later show up to
Posts: 9
Superior Court and plead not guilty again. Even if you live out of
state you must travel and show up to court to say two words. Not
Guilty. This is how the blackmail begins.
1- Either plead guilty and pay a fine or travel hundreds of miles,

speed alot of money on gas, and take time off of work. Or you can
pay into "the system" and get a lawyer.
2- After you plead not guilty then every three months court trials
are held. You and everybody else who has not "paid into the

system" must show up each day for a whole week. Chances are
that your case will not be heard. So after taking a week off of work
($$$$) and traveling to the court ($$$) . Now if you pay a lawyer
you will know when you court date is and even be given a time of
day! But as an American working man they (snakes) will not tell
you when your court date is.
BLACKMAIL. either pay the fines, pay a lawyer, or pay alot more
money with lost wages and time.
10-13-2006 11:02 AM
liberranter Ralphy:
Super Moderator
You seem to have gamed the system perfectly. Unfortunately,
what you've just described isn't unique to Georgia (or any one
state) but is the norm everywhere in today's police-state
Amerika.
Welcome to Copwatch!
__________________
Location: Tucson, AZ Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 5865

Grigg
10-13-2006 12:47 PM


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COPWATCH.com Forum - Study on racially diverse juries. Right, Wrong, or Flawed?
TYRANNY > Study on racially diverse juries. Right, Wrong, or Flawed?
Author Thread
Mack Study on racially diverse juries. Right, Wrong, or Flawed?

Assistant Moderator
Diversity of juries may lead to fairer verdicts, study says

Members of mixed-race panels more likely to share information
By Hilary MacGregor
Originally published May 26, 2006
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/he...ealth-headlines
Do mixed-race juries reach fairer verdicts than all-white panels?

Location: Although social scientists say juries usually manage to produce
Posts: 5215
defensible verdicts, researchers have found that more diverse juries
-- specifically ones that include black and white members -- are
more likely to share information, make fewer errors in evaluating
the facts and perhaps reach fairer verdicts than all-white juries.

The study, conducted with mock jurists, was published in this

month's issue of the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology.
The difference in jury performance could not be attributed solely to

the input of minorities, the study found. Sometimes the mere
presence of minorities changes the behavior of white jurors.
"I think the traditional perception about diversity is that [it] is going
to be a good thing because African-Americans will bring something
novel to the table," said Sam Sommers, assistant professor in the
department of psychology at Massachusetts' Tufts University and
the study's author.
Although that's true, he said, "a lot of the results of this study come
from white jurors acting differently when they were in diverse
groups."
In short, Sommers said, diversity appears to help members of a

group think more deeply and clearly.
"I think the argument could be made that in a homogeneous group,

where everyone is like us, it's easy to be a little lazier and take
those cognitive shortcuts," he said. "Diversity seems to be one
potential way to shake us out of that, and to attend more carefully
to our surroundings."
Janet Schofield, a professor of psychology at the University of

Pittsburgh, said the study contradicts the idea of a "colorblind"
society. Juries made up of one ethnic group can let stereotypes
shape their assumptions, she says, but juries with at least two
ethnic groups are more likely to broaden their perspective.
"There is an awareness that other jurors may be watching you and

judging you," said Schofield, who specializes in integration and
interracial behavior. "It might make people be, or appear to be,
particularly careful. It could be that they really are, or they want to
look that way, so they are not open to charges of having been
unfair or racist."
For the study, Sommers recruited 121 people from a jury pool at a
courthouse in Washtenaw County, Mich., and 79 people through
newspaper advertisements in the same area.
All 200 of the study participants were eligible for jury duty. Of the
participants, 60 percent were female and 40 percent were male; 83
percent were white and 17 percent were black. They ranged in age
from 18 to 78.
Participants were randomly assigned to 29 six-person juries that

were either all white or made up of four whites and two blacks.
Most groups had an alternate.
Half the juries received a voir dire questionnaire that asked race-
related questions designed to detect racial bias, such as: "Do you

have any biases or prejudices that might prevent you from judging
an African-American defendant fairly?" or "In your opinion, how
does the race of a defendant influence the treatment she/he
receives in the legal system as a whole?"
The mock jurors were then shown a 30-minute video summary of

the trial of a black defendant charged with sexual assault. The
prosecution presented testimony from two victims, neither of whom
could identify the assailant's face, though one could describe a scar
on his torso.
The core of their case was forensic evidence from semen and hair at
the crime scene that were consistent, but not a definitive match,
with the defendant. The defense focused on the lack of eyewitness
evidence and unreliable methods used by the lab that did the DNA
analysis.
At this point -- before deliberations -- the mock jurors were

privately polled on whether they believed the defendant was guilty.
Of those who were not asked about race during voir dire, 47
percent said the defendant was guilty while only 34 percent of
those who were asked race-related questions said the defendant
was guilty.
The findings suggest that merely asking race-related questions

before the trial may remind jurors to keep their minds open and
free of prejudice, Sommers said.
In addition, 50 percent of the participants on the all-white juries

said the defendant was guilty before deliberations, while only 34
percent of the whites in the diverse groups made that judgment.
In this study, one all-white jury reached a unanimous guilty verdict,

16 groups reached a unanimous not guilty verdict, and 12 groups
did not reach a verdict within the one-hour time limit.
But perhaps more interesting than the outcomes was what went on
during jury deliberations, which were all taped, coded and analyzed.
Only five of the 14 all-white groups mentioned racism during
deliberations, and when they did, at least one member played down
the issue or tried to change the subject.
In the nine racially mixed juries, however, discussion of racism was

stifled only twice. Analysis also found that whites in all-white groups
made more inaccurate statements than either blacks or whites in
diverse groups.
Philip K. Anthony, chief executive of the trial consulting firm

DecisionQuest, agreed that members of a diverse jury would reach
out more to fellow jurors and make the effort to be understood.
"Fundamentally, when you are part of a diverse group, you have

less confidence in the place in society that the others in your group
come from," Anthony said. "As a result, people are instinctively

cautious. They want to make sure they are listening to fellow

jurors; they want to make comments that are interpreted clearly."
Hilary MacGregor writes for the Los Angeles Times.
__________________
misconduct
generally."

misconduct.
05-28-2006 04:51 PM
dr pepper I don't agree with that commentary one bit. However, I do believe
Senior Member that people of different races think differently and size up a
situation or in this case, a suspect or evaluate the evidence based
Registered: Jun 2006 on cultural values, mores, etc. I don't think white people are
Location: intimidated and watch what they are saying just because a black or
Posts: 138
yellow person is sitting next to them.
It amazes me what sociopsycho-studies are done these days.
That money could have been better used feeding the poor.
06-25-2006 03:20 AM
myjusticequest Dr. P wrote:

Member I
I don't think white people are intimidated and watch what they are
saying just because a black or yellow person is sitting next to them.
It amazes me what sociopsycho-studies are done these days.
That money could have been better used feeding the poor.
I don't know your race, Dr. P. I'm "haole" (Hawaiian slang for a
white person). I AM a minority here. I forget that all the time,
though. I'm not TREATED like a minority.
I am easily intimidated by white men, more than anything else;

then authorities in general after that.
Location: Kailua-Kona, Hawaii I am a white person, but I'm easily intimidated. Minority or not,
(Big Island) don't matter.
Posts: 82

06-28-2006 03:48 AM
dr pepper kona
Senior Member Do you believe white people, in general, are intimidated when
sitting next to a black person?
Registered: Jun 2006 I am intimidated by some people, for different reasons, but I am
Location: not intimidated just because someone has a different skin color.
Posts: 138
I do agree that white people are a minority without special rights.
06-28-2006 03:24 PM
myjusticequest Complex question, Dr. P.

Member
You asked if in general, white people are inclined to be

uncomfortable sitting next to a person who's other than "white"...
right?
I can't speak for white people in general, only for me. The answer is
"No"? (and I was raped at 14 at knifepoint by 2 black army men).
As for my friends, their answer is "No"...and that goes for my haole
(white) friends, my papolo (black) friends, my Hawaiian friends...all
my friends.
You see, Hawaii is special. We're a make-up of many nationalities,

Registered: May 2006 all blended together and we forget (well, most of us do) that our
Location: Kailua-Kona, Hawaii
(Big Island) skin or eyes are different from "da uddah guys". Except for a few
Posts: 82 extremists, we judge each other on our behavior, not our wrapping.
Hope that's useful information. Aloha nui, e hele ke ka pono!
Jules
Kona
06-30-2006 07:06 AM


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Grand Jury Handbook
From the Office of

Your District Attorney
Welcome to
The Grand Jury
Welcome. You have just assumed a most important role in the
administration of justice in your community. Service on the grand jury
is one way in which you, as a responsible citizen, can directly participate
in government. The grand jury has the responsibility of safeguarding
individuals from ungrounded prosecution while simultaneously protecting
the public from crime and criminals. The purpose of this handbook is
to help you meet these responsibilities and be knowledgeable about your
duties and limitations. Your service and acceptance of your duties as a
serious commitment to the community is greatly appreciated.
This handbook was prepared by the staff of the Prosecuting Attorneys’

Council of Georgia and provided to you by your district attorney’s office
to help you fulfill your duties as a grand juror. It summarizes the history
of the grand jury as well as the law and procedures governing the grand
jury. This handbook will provide you with an overview of the duties,
functions and limitations of the grand jury. However, the legal advice
given to you by the court and by me and my assistants will provide a more
comprehensive explanation of all of your responsibilities.
I sincerely hope you will find the opportunity to participate in the

enforcement of the law an enlightening experience. My office and staff offer
you our fullest cooperation and assistance as you undertake this important
office. If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to ask.
Grand Jury Handbook 1

Table of Contents
Guidelines . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 Criminal Or
Accusatory Function. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13
Glossary . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 How Cases get to the Grand Jury. . . . . . . . . . . 13
History . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 Procedure in Criminal Cases . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13
Preparation of the Case for Presentation
Selection & Administration . . . . . . 8 to the Grand Jury. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13
Presentation of the Case . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13
Qualifications . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8
Deliberations and Voting. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14
Selection . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8
Actions Taken if the Indictment
Organizing & Empaneling the Grand Jury . . . . . . 9 Is “True Billed”. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15
Qualifying the Panel & Criminal Proceedings Involving
Excusing Individuals From Service. . . . . . . . . . . 9 Certain Public Officials . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15
Length of Service as Grand Jurors . . . . . . . . . . . 9 Civil Functions & Duties. . . . . . . . 16
Selection of Foreperson &
Administration of the Oath . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 Inspection or Investigations of Public
Property, Records and Offices. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 16
The Court’s Charge to the Grand Jury. . . . . . . . 10
Conducting Inspections or Investigations. . . . 17
Grand Jury Organization and Operations. . . . . . 10
Duties Relating to Elections and Voting . . . . . 18
Foreperson. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10
Other Officers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 Appointments or Nominations
Made by the Grand Jury. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 18
Bailiff . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10
The Grand Jury’s Legal Advisor– Miscellaneous Duties. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .18
the District Attorney . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11
Local Duties. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 19
Other Persons Authorized to
Assist the Grand Jury. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11 General
Meetings and Quorum. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11
Presentments & Reports . . . . . . . 20
Disqualification of Grand Jurors Index. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .21
in Particular Cases . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11
Juror Notes . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 22
Compensation . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12
Secrecy of Grand Jury Proceedings. . . . . . . . . . . 12

Guidelines
Practical Suggestions for Grand Jurors
Attend the sessions regularly and on time.
If you are unable to attend, be sure to notify the foreperson or the district attorney’s office as the unexpected lack of
a quorum causes great inconvenience.
The oath should be administered to witnesses in an impressive manner, so that they will realize that it is a serious, judicial
hearing, and they must tell the truth.
Pay close attention to the testimony given and the evidence presented. The reputation and freedom of someone depends
on what is being told.
Be courteous to the witnesses and to your fellow jurors.
Listen to the evidence and opinions of your fellow jurors but don’t be a rubber stamp.
Be independent but not obstinate.
All jurors have an equal voice in determining an indictment and each juror has the right to state his reasons for his
or her views.
Express your opinions but don’t be dictatorial. Every juror has a right to his or her own opinions. You may try to
persuade other jurors, but do not try to force him or her to change his or her mind and agree with you. He or she might
be right.
Do not discuss cases with your fellow jurors or anyone else outside the jury room.
Be absolutely fair. Every matter which you consider and every person who appears before you should be given equal treatment
regardless of gender, racial or ethnic background, disability, sexual preference, age or ability to speak English.
Wait until the district attorney, assistants, witness, interpreter or court reporter has left the room before you begin your
deliberations or vote on an indictment or special presentment.
A reckless grand jury can do as much harm to the community and to law enforcement as a weak grand jury.
Your membership on the grand jury is a high honor. You are among a relatively small number of citizens of your
community who are chosen to serve. Your response should be devoted, trustworthy participation in performing the
duties of the grand jury. A humorous, but wise quotation attempting to summarize grand jury service is that “The grand
jury should know the difference between sin and crime and act accordingly.”
While the grand jury may appear to have considerable power and authority, the manner in which it can
exercise its power and authority is strictly regulated by law and limited by the amount of time and resources
that are available. Experience has taught that no single grand jury can do everything that the law allows
them to do.

Glossary
Throughout your service as a grand juror, you will hear references to words and phrases which have particular meanings
under Georgia law. Some of the more common words and phrases are defined below.
Accusation
A formal charge against a person, alleging that he has committed a crime. In Georgia, the term “accusation” is used
to describe a legal document used in lieu of an indictment or special presentment in misdemeanor cases and certain
felony cases.
Capital Felony
A criminal offense for which a sentence of death may be imposed.
Felony
A crime punishable by death, imprisonment for life, life without parole or for a term of more than 12 months.
General Presentment
A written report to the court by the grand jury, generally issued at the end of the term, in which the grand jury summarizes its
activities and makes findings and recommendations which are authorized in conjunction with its non-criminal duties.
Indictment
The document in which the grand jury charges that there is probable cause to believe that the person named therein has
committed the crime specified therein. Prior to its having been considered by the grand jury, a proposed indictment may
be referred to as a “bill of indictment.”
Juvenile Court
The court which has jurisdiction over children under the age of 17 who are alleged to be delinquent, unruly, deprived or
mentally ill.
Malicious Prosecution
A criminal prosecution initiated by a person for malice or spite when probable cause does not exist to believe that the
defendant committed the offense charged.
Magistrate
A judge of a court who is authorized to issue arrest and search warrants, and who has jurisdiction to conduct commitment
hearings and try certain misdemeanor and ordinance violations and civil cases. In Georgia, judges of the magistrates courts
and municipal courts are referred to as magistrates.
Misdemeanor
A crime, other than a felony, punishable by imprisonment for 12 months or less, or a fine, or both.
No Bill
After hearing the evidence, a finding made on a bill of indictment by the grand jury that the charges against the accused
are groundless or the evidence is insufficient to present an issue for trial.

Person
By law, person can mean an individual, a corporation, an association or a partnership.
Probable Cause
The term used to describe a finding by the grand jury that the facts would justify a person of reasonable caution to believe
that an offense has been committed. Probable cause does not involve a certainty, but requires merely a probability, something
more than a mere suspicion or possibility.
Prosecutor
In Georgia, the person who initiates a prosecution by making an affidavit before a magistrate or judge charging a named
person with the commission of an offense which results in an arrest warrant being issued or an indictment or accusation
being returned.
Special Presentment
A legal document which is substantially the same as an indictment except that no person is named as the prosecutor because, in
theory, the offense charged is based on the grand jury’s own knowledge or observation and not upon an arrest warrant.
State Court
A court established by the General Assembly in 66 counties having concurrent jurisdiction with the superior court over
civil cases and misdemeanors.
Statute of Limitations
The time limit, fixed by law, within which a criminal prosecution must be commenced by the filing of an indictment, special
presentment or accusation.
In Georgia, the statutes of limitation are:
Murder - no statute of limitation;

Other crimes punishable by death or life imprisonment - 7 years;
RICO - 5 years;
All other felonies - 4 years;
Misdemeanors - 2 years. There are circumstances, such as offenses where the victim is a child or the accused is a fugitive
which can extend the statute of limitation.
Superior Court
A court established by the Constitution of Georgia having exclusive jurisdiction over cases involving divorce, equity, felonies,
and titles to land, and having concurrent jurisdiction over other civil and criminal cases.
Term of Court
This phrase is used to describe the period of time, usually expressed in months, during which a court must hold court at least
once within the county and the time limit in which a particular grand jury will sit. In Georgia, the terms of court are set by the
legislature and vary from county to county from two months to six months.
True Bill
The endorsement made by a grand jury on an indictment or special presentment when they find there is probable cause to
believe that the accused committed the alleged act.

History
Service on a grand jury will provide you with a unique opportunity to participate in the administration of justice. In
order to better appreciate the functions of the grand jury today, it is necessary to understand a little about its history
and evolution.
While there may have been a similar body in Athens, Greece, before the first century A.D. and in 10th century Scandinavia,
the direct ancestor of the modern grand jury is generally accepted to date from the 1166 A.D. decree of King Henry II of
England. This decree required 12 knights or other freemen of every hundred and four men of every township to submit
accusations of murder, robbery, larceny and harboring of criminals. Under the Norman and Plantagenet kings, judges were
required to ride a circuit to hold court in the outlying counties. Because the majority of criminal cases were brought by
private citizens, many cases were found to be completely baseless. The panel of knights and freemen called for in Henry
II’s decree provided a ready screening device to weed out baseless cases before they went to trial. This panel became known
as the great or, in Norman French, the “grand” jury (the trial jury, by contrast, is the small or ordinary, the “petit” jury).
Because they were also charged by the King with discovering what crimes had been committed in the county since the
previous term of court, they were also called the “Grand Inquest.”
While during the 13th and 14th centuries the members of the grand jury formed the whole or part of the petit jury, eventually,
a total separation of the grand and petit juries evolved. By this time the primary function of the grand jury emerged: that
is, to look at the prosecutor’s evidence and determine if there was probable cause for indictment. In addition to acting as
a screening device, the grand jury also provided citizens a degree of local control over criminal prosecutions. Few criminal
cases could be presented to the courts unless at least 12 of the grand jurors in the locality where the crime had occurred
concurred in a “true bill.” This procedural safeguard, guaranteed to all Englishmen by the Magna Charta, provided protection
against attempts by the King and nobles to persecute citizens through the use of unwarranted criminal charges.
When English colonists began settling in North America, they continued to follow the English legal system which included
the grand jury. It was during this period that grand juries acquired many administrative duties outside the criminal law. In
Georgia, the grand jury is older than the superior courts, the first grand jury having been convened in 1735 in Savannah
1166 A.D.
The ancestor of the
modern grand jury is 1600s -1700s
formed with King Henry English colonists begin
II’s decree that twelve settling in North America
knights or other freemen and continue to follow
of every hundred, and four the English legal system
men of every township, which includes the grand
jury. The grand jury also 1775 -1783
must submit accusations
acquires administrative American Revolution
of murder, robbery,
larceny, and harboring of duties outside criminal
criminals. law.
1735 1785 -1795

The first grand jury in Grand juries are instrumental in alerting the
Georgia convenes in citizens to the Yazoo Land fraud, a scandal in
1200 - 1300
Savannah during the which four companies bribed and intimidated
“Petit” or trial juries and
Trustee Period. a bill through the assembly. The bill made
grand juries become
investors rich by selling them vast amounts
separate entities.
of land at low prices while higher bids for the
same land were ignored.

during the Trustee period. Prior to the American Revolution, grand juries in Georgia and the other colonies played a
significant role in opposing British policies.
After the Revolutionary War, the grand jury continued to be a part of the judicial systems in the 13 original states. While no
mention was made of the grand jury in the Constitution of the United States when it was proposed for ratification in 1787,
provisions for the grand jury were taken up by Congress when it met for the first time in 1789. In the Fifth Amendment to
the Constitution of the United States, it was provided that:
Fifth Amendment
“No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a
Grand Jury.”
In Georgia, grand juries played an important role in the development of the State. The routes for many of our early roads
were suggested by grand juries in their general presentments and grand juries were among the first public bodies to alert the
citizens of Georgia to the infamous Yazoo Land Fraud. Grand juries also were instrumental in the calling of the Constitutional
Convention of 1877.
Beginning in the late 1800s, questions about the grand jury began to appear. Critics characterized grand juries as “an expensive
and cumbersome relic that had outlived its usefulness” and by the early part of the 20th century many of the Western states
had abolished or limited the use of the grand jury.
In Georgia, concern that some grand juries were abusing their authority to review local government led the legislature in 1869
to provide that “the duties of a grand jury shall be confined to such matters and things as by law it is required to perform.”
In addition, courts began to impose limits on the contents of grand jury presentments, holding that a grand jury could not
accuse someone of misconduct except by indictment or special presentment.
The role of the grand jury continues to evolve to meet the demands of society. While duties such as inspecting and
recommending roads have passed into history, new duties have taken their place. These will be discussed in greater detail
in the sections that follow.
While the grand jury remains a powerful institution through which ordinary citizens can participate directly in local
government, its powers are not unlimited. Within the limits established by law, it is capable of providing a wealth of benefits
to all of the citizens of your community.
1869
1787 In response to a concern that some grand
The Constitution of juries were abusing their authority to review
the United States is local government, the Georgia legislature 20th Century - Present
proposed but makes provides that “the duties of a grand jury shall The role of the grand jury continues
no mention of grand be confined to such matters and things by law to evolve to meet the ever-changing
juries. it is required to perform.” demands of society.
1789 1887
Congress meets for the first time and Grand juries are
provisions for the grand jury are taken up instrumental in calling the
by instituting the Fifth Amendment, which Constitutional Convention
states that “No person shall be held to answer of 1887.
for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime,
unless on a presentment or indictment of a
grand jury.”

Selection & Administration
Many people who receive a notice or summons informing them that they have been selected to serve on the grand jury wonder,
“How did I get selected for this?” To understand how you came to be selected, we first must examine who is qualified for
service on the grand jury and then how grand jurors are selected.
Qualifications
All citizens of Georgia may serve on a grand jury if:
They are a citizen of the United States;
They are 18 years of age or older;
They are not incompetent because of mental illness or retardation;
They are a current resident of the county and have resided in the county
for six months prior to serving; and
They are the most experienced, intelligent and upright of persons.
Any citizen who meets these basic requirements is eligible to be selected for grand jury duty unless he or she:
Has been convicted of a felony in a state or federal court and has not been pardoned or had his or her civil rights
restored; or
Currently holds or has, within the previous two years, held an elected office in state or local government; or
Has served as a grand juror in a state court at the preceding term of court.
Individuals who are 70 years old or older may request, in writing, to have their names removed from the jury lists. For
further information on this, you should ask the district attorney.
Selection
All jurors are selected from a list of the qualified residents of the county. This list is developed by the Board of Jury
Commissioners so that it reflects a fair cross-section of the citizens of the county. The primary sources for this list are
driver’s license records and voter registrations, but the commissioners may use any other source to ensure that the jury list
fairly represents the population of the county.
The jury list is revised at least every two years. From this list the commissioners develop a second list containing names of
the most intelligent and upright citizens of the community from which the grand jurors will be selected.
Prior to each term of court, the grand jury list is used to select the names of those citizens who will be summoned for
service on the grand jury. This can be done either manually or by computer, depending on the county.
In counties which rely on a manual system, the commissioners take names from the grand jury list and place them on slips
of paper which are put into the grand jury box. The box is brought into open court where a judge of superior court draws
between 18 and 75 names of persons to be summoned for duty on the grand jury.
In counties which use a mechanical or computerized jury selection system, prior to each term, 18 to 75 names from the
grand jury list are selected at random by the computer in accordance with local court rules.
After the prospective grand jurors’ names have been selected, the clerk of the superior court is responsible for notifying
the prospective grand jurors when and where to report. This can be done either by mailing you a notice or summons or by
having it delivered to your residence by the sheriff. It should be noted that willful failure to report for grand jury service
is contempt of court and is punishable by fine.

Organizing and Empaneling the Grand Jury
Qualifying the Panel and Excusing Individuals From Service
At the time and date specified in the summons (usually the first day of the term), those selected for service on the
grand jury assemble at the county courthouse (or other location indicated in the summons). At that time, a judge
of the superior court or someone designated by the judge will usually ask the assembled jurors if any of them are
disqualified from serving. It is vital that you advise the court at this time if you have any reason to believe you
may be disqualified. Failure to do so can invalidate the work of the grand jury during the term and require
those criminal cases to be reindicted. The reasons which would disqualify someone from serving on the grand jury
are on page 8. The most common reason why someone is disqualified from serving on the grand jury is that they
have moved out of the county. On page 11 and 12 of this handbook, we will discuss those instances when a grand
juror may be disqualified in a particular case or cases. (Note: A grand juror who is disqualified in a particular case can
hear other cases.)
At the same time, the judge (or the person designated by the judge) will ask if there is anyone who is otherwise unable
to serve as a grand juror for that term because he or she will “be engaged . . . in work necessary to the public health,
safety or good order” or for other good cause. In these cases, the judge (or a person designated by the judge) has the
discretion on an individual basis to defer such person’s jury service to another time. By law, no one can be excused
totally from jury service unless he or she is permanently mentally or physically disabled to the extent that they cannot
perform the essential functions of a juror, even with reasonable accommodations.
After these persons are excused, the court will usually select the first 16 to 23 persons whose names are on the list
to serve as members of the grand jury and up to three alternate grand jurors. Those selected as alternates may be
called on to serve if a member of the grand jury is disqualified or is absent for any reason. They also may serve on
any inspection or examination committee in which case they have the same authority as other members of the grand
jury. However, an alternate should not be present with the grand jury when criminal cases are being considered unless
one of the members is disqualified or absent.
Length of Service as Grand Jurors

Those individuals selected as a grand juror or an alternate will normally serve for the full term of court unless they are
discharged from further service by the court. Because the length of a term of court varies from county to county, the
judge will usually advise you as part of the charge how long you are expected to serve. This does not mean that you
will be in constant session throughout the term, but you may be called in from time to time as necessary. The district
attorney will discuss the schedule for grand jury meetings with you during your first session.
Selection of Foreperson and Administration of the Oath

After the judge has selected the 16 to 23 persons and up to three alternates to serve on the grand jury, the remaining
prospective jurors usually will be excused. The judge will either appoint the foreperson or direct that the grand jurors
elect one of their members as foreperson (see p. 10) and the foreperson and other grand jurors will be administered
the oath of office.
Grand Jury Oath of Office

“You, as foreperson [or member] of the grand jury for the county of _____________________, shall diligently
inquire and true presentment make of all such matters and things as shall be given you in the court’s charge or shall
come to your knowledge touching the present service; and you shall keep the deliberations of the grand jury secret
unless called upon to give evidence thereof in some court of law in this State. You shall present no one from envy,
hatred, or malice, nor shall you leave anyone unpresented from fear, favor, affection, reward, or the hope thereof,
but you shall present all things truly and as they come to your knowledge. So help you God.”

This oath, which is over 300 years old, indicates, in a general sense, both the duties and limitations of the grand jury.
In taking the oath, each grand juror should understand the tremendous responsibility to the community which they
assume upon being sworn into office. You pledge yourself to act on behalf of all of the citizens of your county
without “envy, hatred, . . . malice, . . . fear, favor, affection [or] hope [of reward].” By taking this oath, you become,
for this term of superior court, a public officer. And while you have immunity from civil suit for your official acts,
violation of your oath or misconduct as a grand juror can subject you to contempt of court or criminal prosecution
with penalties of imprisonment for up to five years, fines up to $1,000 or both. The district attorney can provide you
with additional information about this.
After the grand jury has been sworn, the following oath is administered to the bailiff whose job it is to attend to the
grand jury:
Bailiff Oath
“You do solemnly swear that you will diligently attend the grand jury during the present term and carefully deliver to
that body all such bills of indictment or other things as shall be sent to them by the court without alteration, and as
carefully return all such as shall be sent by that body to the court. So help you God.”
The Court’s Charge to the Grand Jury

After you have been administered your oath of office and the bailiff has been sworn, the superior court judge will
“charge” the grand jury. In the charge, the judge will explain your duties, powers and responsibilities as grand jurors
in both criminal and civil matters (see pages 13-19 for more information on these). The judge may also direct the
grand jury to investigate other matters of public interest. Following the judge’s charge, the grand jurors will usually
retire to the grand jury room to begin their duties.
Grand Jury Organization and Operations

The first task facing any new grand jury is to develop their own internal structure and to identify the other individuals who
they will interact with throughout the term.
Foreperson
The foreperson is the presiding officer of the grand jury and signs all indictments and presentments. As indicated on
page 9, the superior court judge may appoint the foreperson, however, in many circuits, the judge will allow the grand
jury to elect its foreperson. The foreperson may administer the oath to and question witnesses.
Other Officers
In many counties, the court may appoint or the grand jury elect an assistant or deputy foreperson to preside at grand jury
meetings if the foreperson will be absent for any reason. Other officers commonly found in the grand jury are a clerk
and a doorkeeper.
The clerk is usually charged with keeping the records of the grand jury such as attendance and a record of matters
considered by the grand jury. The clerk should also check each indictment or special presentment after the grand jury
has voted and verify that the action taken is properly recorded on the backing and has been signed by the foreperson.
The doorkeeper’s job is to guard the door and notify the bailiff when the grand jury requires anything.
Bailiff
The bailiff is an officer of the court, appointed by the sheriff and assigned to attend the grand jury. The bailiff assigned
to the grand jury is charged with insuring that unauthorized persons do not enter the grand jury room when the grand
jury is in session. When properly sworn, as discussed above, the bailiff is authorized to deliver documents from the
court to the grand jury and to make the return of indictments and special presentments which have been either “true
billed” or “no billed” to the court so that they can be docketed.

The Grand Jury’s Legal Advisor – the District Attorney
By law, the district attorney is the legal advisor for the grand jury. In so providing, the legislature recognized that most
citizens who serve on the grand jury are unfamiliar with the many technicalities of the law. The district attorney is
responsible for advising you on any questions of law or procedure which you may have as a grand jury. In 1973, the
Georgia Supreme Court held that the grand jury must rely on the district attorney for legal advice and may not employ
any other lawyer for that purpose. Assisting the district attorney in carrying out these duties will be assistant district
attorneys and other employees of his or her office.
In addition to serving as legal advisor to the grand jury, the district attorney and his or her staff are counsel for the
State in all criminal cases which will be brought before you. The district attorney’s office will prepare the cases for
presentation to the grand jury and subpoena necessary witnesses. The district attorney and assistant district attorneys
are authorized to be present with the grand jury when cases are being presented. They may also administer the oath
to and question witnesses before the grand jury. Any presentments or indictments which the grand jury requests be
drawn will be prepared by the district attorney’s office.
Other Persons Authorized to Assist the Grand Jury

If a hearing impaired person is to testify as a witness before the grand jury, the court will appoint an interpreter of the
deaf sign language to interpret the proceedings and the witness’s testimony. Additionally, in counties with a population
of 150,000 or more, the district attorney may provide a stenographer to record and transcribe the testimony of witnesses
before the grand jury.
When requested by the grand jury, the foreperson or clerk of the previous grand jury may review and report on
actions taken by that grand jury. In such a case, they are entitled to the same compensation as members of the present
grand jury.
When carrying out its civil functions, the grand jury may form committees to conduct inspections or investigations.
They may also appoint a citizen of the county to provide technical expertise to either the grand jury or the committee.
This will be discussed in greater detail on page 16.
Meetings and Quorum

As indicated on page 9, meetings of the grand jury are scheduled based on the requirements of your court. However,
in order for the grand jury to hear evidence or take any official action, at least 16 qualified members must be present
in the grand jury room.
Disqualification of Grand Jurors in Particular Cases

On page 8, we mentioned that certain individuals cannot serve on the grand jury. However, there are circumstances
when a grand juror may be disqualified from serving for a particular case or cases because of his or her relationship to either
the victim or the accused. For obvious reasons, a grand juror who was either the victim of or a defendant in a crime being
considered by the grand jury is disqualified.
A grand juror who is related by blood or marriage within the sixth degree to a person under investigation by the grand
jury or any party interested in the results of the case is also disqualified. Normally, in addition to the accused, the
victim and the prosecutor are the “interested parties” but a grand juror who contributed to a fund to help prosecute
the accused has also been held to be an interested party. The chart on page 12 shows who are related within the sixth
degree by blood or marriage. “X” represents the grand juror.
If, at any point during your term, you have any concern that you, or any other member of the grand jury may be
disqualified in a particular case, please speak to the district attorney or an assistant district attorney. If a grand juror
deliberates or votes in a case in which they are disqualified, the court may be forced to dismiss any resulting indictment
or special presentment.

Compensation
The amount and manner in which you will be compensated for your service on the grand jury varies from county to
county. As page 18 will indicate, the grand jury empaneled at the fall term of court has the duty to recommend the
amount which jurors and bailiffs are paid.
Secrecy of Grand Jury Proceedings

The oath you take as a grand juror requires that you “shall keep the deliberations of the grand jury secret unless
called upon to give evidence thereof in some court of law of this state.” There are important reasons behind this
requirement as secrecy protects witnesses from intimidation or tampering and makes it more difficult for a witness to
avoid subpoena, hide or destroy evidence or for a defendant to evade arrest. Secrecy not only aids in the investigation,
but is of particular importance to an accused who is later cleared by a “no bill.”
To ensure secrecy, the law limits those who may be present in the grand jury room to the grand jurors, the district
attorney and his or her assistants, a stenographer or interpreter when authorized, and generally, only the witness who
is testifying. While the grand jurors are deliberating and voting on a case, absolutely no one except the grand jurors
may be present.
By law in Georgia, communications among grand jurors are excluded from evidence as a matter of public policy.
However, you may disclose anything which occurred during your term if ordered to do so by a judge of a court of
record in this State.
Relation Within the 6th Degree

“X” Represents the Grand Juror
First Degree Parents and children of x
Second Degree Grandparents, brothers and sisters of x, and grandchildren of x

Third Degree Uncles, aunts, nephews, nieces, great-grandparents of x, and great-grandchildren
of x
Fourth Degree First cousins, great-uncles, great-aunts, great-great-grandparents, great-nephews and
nieces of x, and great-great-grandchildren of x
Fifth Degree Great-great-uncles and aunts, the children of a first cousin, the children of great-
uncles or aunts, great-great-great-grandparents, great-great nephews and nieces of
x, and great-great-great-grandchildren of x
Sixth Degree Great-great-great-uncles and aunts, second cousins, first cousins twice removed
(being the children of the children of a first cousin), children of great-great-great-
great-grandparents, and great-great-great-nephews and nieces of x
This chart shows who is related within the sixth degree, by blood or marriage. A grand juror who is related
by blood or marriage within the sixth degree to a person under investigation by the grand jury or any party
interested in the results of the case is disqualified.

Criminal or Accusatory Function
Because Georgia law requires that the grand jury must find a “true bill” in most felony cases before the case may be
brought to trial, a substantial amount of your time will be spent inquiring into the existence of possible criminal conduct. It
should be noted that not every criminal case requires action by the grand jury. Indictment by the grand jury is not required
for misdemeanors and certain felony offenses and in all but capital felonies, the defendant may waive indictment by the
grand jury. In these cases, the prosecuting attorney may file an accusation, or in some instances a citation, directly with the
court. In addition, indictments are not used in cases when the accused is under 17 years of age and the case is brought in
juvenile court.
How Cases Get to the Grand Jury

Most cases which will be brought before you begin with a crime being reported to or discovered by a law enforcement
agency such as the sheriff ’s department, police department, or a state law enforcement agency. Following an investigation,
a law enforcement officer will obtain a warrant for the arrest of the person believed to have committed the crime.
In other cases, a private individual will have obtained an arrest warrant from a magistrate accusing a person of a crime. In
these cases, there often has been little or no investigation by law enforcement.
After the accused is arrested, he or she will be brought before a magistrate, who will decide if the accused should be released
on bail or held in custody. At that time, the accused may ask for a commitment hearing or allow the case to be bound over
to superior court. If a commitment hearing is held, a magistrate will consider the facts in the case and determine if there
is sufficient reason to believe that the accused committed the crime charged. If the magistrate determines that there is, the
case will be bound over to the grand jury. After receiving and reviewing the warrants, police reports and interviewing key
witnesses, the district attorney’s office will prepare an indictment or special presentment for presentation to you.
In addition to cases which are bound over, the district attorney’s office can bring an indictment or special presentment
before you for investigation where the accused has not been arrested. Finally, if you or another member of the grand jury
has personal knowledge that a crime has been committed for which the statute of limitations has not expired, the grand
jury may request that the district attorney prepare an indictment or special presentment so the case may be considered by
the grand jury.
It is the duty of the grand jury in criminal cases to determine from the evidence presented if there is probable cause to
believe that a crime has been committed and that the person or persons named in the indictment or special presentment
committed it.
Procedure in Criminal Cases

Preparation of the Case for Presentation to the Grand Jury
Prior to each meeting of the grand jury, the district attorney’s office will prepare an indictment or special presentment
for each case which is to be presented. In most cases, this is done from the arrest warrant and any reports prepared
by the investigating officers and the crime laboratory. In addition, the district attorney’s office will cause subpoenas to
be issued by the clerk for any witnesses or physical evidence which will be needed in order to establish that probable
cause exists.
Presentation of the Case

When the grand jury meets, the district attorney or an assistant district attorney designated by the district attorney will

either read or explain the proposed indictment (sometimes referred to as a “bill of indictment”) to the grand jury and will
acquaint them with the witnesses who will testify. This is done to allow the grand jurors to know who the parties to the
case will be in the event that one or more members are disqualified (see p. 11 and 12).
After explaining the indictment, the district attorney will begin calling the witnesses. These witnesses may appear
voluntarily, at the request of the grand jury or the district attorney, or they may be ordered to appear by serving them
with subpoena. Each witness who appears before the grand jury in a criminal case must be administered the following
oath by the district attorney, an assistant district attorney, or the foreperson:
Witness Oath
“Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the evidence you shall give the grand jury on this bill of indictment or
presentment shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. So help you God.”
If a witness fails to take the required oath, his or her testimony would not be evidence and any indictment or presentment
returned on this testimony would be invalid. In addition, if the oath administered to the witness is not substantially
the same as the statutory oath and the testimony given should prove to be false, the witness cannot be prosecuted
for perjury.
The witness will normally be questioned first by the district attorney or an assistant district attorney, then by the
foreperson, and finally, if desired, by any other members of the grand jury. If you have a question which you would
like to ask a witness but are in doubt whether or not it is a proper question, the advice of the prosecuting attorney
presenting the case should be sought. The prosecuting attorney may also advise the grand jury about what evidence
you may consider in your deliberations.
In most cases, the only witnesses who will be scheduled to appear before the grand jury will be the law enforcement
officers who have investigated the cases. These officers may testify as to statements made to law enforcement officers
by the suspects or by witnesses to the crime and to the results of any laboratory tests performed on physical evidence
in the case. Even though such testimony is considered to be hearsay (an unsworn, out-of-court statement), it can
be sufficient evidence on which to return an indictment. It is important to remember that at least one witness must
be sworn and give testimony as to each indictment or special presentment in order for the indictment or special
presentment to be valid.
As the case is being presented, each grand juror should be attentive to the testimony and evidence being presented. If
it should appear that there is a difference between the testimony and the facts alleged in the indictment, this should be
called to the attention of the district attorney or the assistant handling the case. (Example: the indictment alleges that
John Smith was robbed, but the testimony is that Jane Smith was the victim.)
Deliberations and Voting

After the evidence is presented the prosecuting attorney will leave the room and the grand jury will be given the
opportunity to discuss the case in private and to vote whether the bill of indictment is to be returned as a “true bill”
or a “no bill.” They may also defer taking action on the case by tabling it, holding the case for further investigation, or
request that additional or different charges be presented to them.
In considering an indictment, it is important that you remember that the function of the grand jury is not to try the
merits of the case but rather to determine if probable cause exists. It would be difficult, if not impossible, to determine
a case on its merits as the defendant does not have the right to appear before the grand jury, to cross-examine witnesses
or to present evidence on his or her own behalf. A defendant may not be compelled to appear and testify before the
grand jury.
The law requires that not less than 16 grand jurors actually participate in voting on an indictment or special presentment.
If 12 or more grand jurors vote in favor of the indictment, then the foreperson or clerk should enter the words “true
bill” in the appropriate space on the indictment. The indictment should also show on its face the names of all the
grand jurors who voted on the indictment (strike only the names of those who did not participate).

If, however, the grand jurors vote that there is insufficient evidence to believe that the person named in the indictment
committed the act charged, then the foreperson or clerk would enter the words “no bill” in the appropriate space on
the indictment. If in finding a “no bill,” the grand jury concludes that the indictment was unfounded or malicious,
the grand jury may endorse the indictment as a “malicious prosecution,” in which case the person instigating the
prosecution (the “prosecutor”) will be compelled to pay all costs for bringing the unfounded charge.
If two successive grand juries should make two returns of “no bill” on the same charge, further prosecution of the
same offense is barred, unless the “no bill” was procured by the fraudulent conduct of the person charged in the
indictment. Whatever entry is made on the indictment, it must be signed by the foreperson or acting foreperson.
Actions Taken if the Indictment Is “True Billed”

If a “true bill” is found, the indictment must be returned in open court, either by the entire grand jury or delivered
by the grand jury to the sworn grand jury bailiff to be returned in open court. In order for the return to be made in
“open court” it must be made “in the courtroom or place where court was being held open to the public with the
judge and clerk present.” If an indictment is not returned in open court or if it is returned by anyone other than the
grand jury or bailiff, the defendant can have the indictment dismissed.
If court has recessed for the day or the judge and clerk are not available when the grand jury is ready to have
an indictment returned, the grand jury bailiff may hold the indictment overnight and return it the next day when
court opens.
After a “true bill” has been returned, the accused has the opportunity to have a fair and impartial jury determine if
he or she is guilty of the crime(s) charged in the indictment.
Criminal Proceedings Involving Certain Public Officials

Although generally the accused has no right to appear before the grand jury, Georgia law allows some current and
former public officials and peace officers to be present when the grand jury is considering indicting them for offenses
involving the conduct of their official duties. These public officials include present and former:
State officials whose positions are created by the Constitution or by a statute;

Elected county officers (including judge of probate court, clerk of superior court, tax commissioner and county
commissioner); and
Mayors and members of municipal governing authorities.
In addition to public officials, a peace officer who is charged with a crime alleged to have occurred while the officer
was in the performance of his or her duties is also permitted to be present with the grand jury.
In these cases, the accused has a right to receive a copy of the proposed indictment before it is presented to the
grand jury and to be present with his or her attorney in the grand jury room during the presentation of all evidence
against him. The official or officer also may make a sworn statement to the grand jury but cannot be subjected to
cross-examination.
The courts have held that these procedures are based on the belief of the legislature that “... the smooth, uninterrupted
functioning of government, so important to the public welfare, may be endangered by requiring high public officials
to endure a time consuming trial ... (on) an unfounded indictment.”
The Supreme Court of Georgia has also held that a grand jury has no right, in the absence of specific statutory authority,
to return a general presentment which charges a public officer with misconduct in office. If the grand jury finds such
misconduct, they are limited to returning an indictment or special presentment charging the official with a crime.

Civil Functions & Duties
Since Colonial times, Georgia grand juries have been authorized, and in some cases required, to perform duties
unrelated to criminal law. These functions, traditionally referred to as civil functions or duties, fall into four categories:
inspections or investigations, elections and voting, appointments and nominations, and miscellaneous duties. Because
in the past some grand juries have “exceed[ed] their authority and . . . become involved in politics and local feuds,”
the legislature and courts have strictly regulated the grand jury’s duties and the procedures which the grand jury must
follow in performing its civil functions. The rules which apply to each of the civil functions vary considerably and in
most cases are too detailed to be easily summarized in this handbook. The district attorney or the court can advise you
about these rules as needed.
Inspection or Investigations of Public Property, Records and Offices
Generally
In 1994, the General Assembly eliminated most of the mandatory inspections and reports which the grand jury was required
to perform either annually or each term of court and replaced them with annual, periodic and optional inspections. The
grand jury may conduct civil inspections or investigations only where specifically authorized by statute.
Annual Inspections
The grand jury is to inspect the condition and operation of the jail at least once each calendar year.
Periodic Inspections
At least once every three calendar years, the grand jury is to inspect and examine the offices and operations
of the clerk of superior court, judge of probate court, the county treasurer or depository and the offices of
the district attorney, if located in the county. If the district attorney does not maintain an office in the county,
the grand jury may inspect the offices of the district attorney when they deem it necessary.
Optional Inspections or Investigations

Whenever deemed necessary by eight or more grand jurors, the grand jury shall appoint a committee of the
grand jury to inspect or investigate the following:
Any county office;

Any county building;
Any public authority of the county;
Any court or court official of the county;
The county board of education or county school superintendent; or
Any of the records, accounts, property, or operations of any of the entities described above.
When the grand jury conducts a civil investigation or inspection under the 1994 legislation, the district attorney
will advise you concerning the procedures which must be followed. During an authorized inspection or
investigation, the grand jury or the designated committee is authorized to examine books, records, and accounts,
to have witnesses subpoenaed, and hear evidence. Any oral testimony heard by the grand jury must be taken
under oath, as unsworn statements are not evidence.
The grand jury is authorized to appoint one citizen of the county to provide technical expertise during the
inspection or investigation. This technical expert receives the same compensation as grand jurors.

The following oath must be administered to witnesses who appear before the grand jury during a civil investigation
or inspection:
Witness Oath
“You do solemnly swear (or affirm) that the evidence you shall give the grand jury in its civil investigation of (here
identify the county officer, office or authority being investigated or inspected), shall be the truth, the whole truth and
nothing but the truth. So help you God.”
The grand jury is authorized to prepare and submit for publication reports or presentments based on its inspections
or investigations. (See p. 20).
Other Inspections, etc. Which the Grand Jury May Conduct

Several inspections which the grand jury can perform were not affected by the 1994 legislation.
County Tax Collector or Tax Commissioner

The county tax collector or tax commissioner is to submit the tax execution docket and cash book to the
grand jury empaneled for the spring term of superior court.
County Treasurer
At least twice a year, the county treasurer is to submit a report to the grand jury showing the amounts of fines
and forfeitures received by him and to whom such funds were disbursed for the six month period preceding
the report.
Reports of Receipts and Disbursements

At each term of superior court, the judge of the probate court, the county treasurer, the clerk of superior
court and the sheriff are to submit a report of any money belonging to the county which was received by
them and any expenditures. They are also required to provide the grand jury with a copy of the most recent
financial statements or annual audit of their office.
Public Education
Members of the State Board of Education and any other person having authority to select or aid in the selection
of textbooks for the schools are required to report any gifts or offers of compensation or remuneration made
to them on behalf of any schoolbook publishing house, corporation, or individual publishing textbooks.
Child Abuse
The Child Abuse Protocol Committee is to provide a copy of its annual report to the grand jury which meets
during the fall term of superior court.
County Jail Inmate Records

The grand jury is to examine inmate records at the county jail.
Conducting Inspections or Investigations

When the grand jury undertakes a civil investigation or inspection, the members must do so in a manner which protects
the Constitutional rights of the person who is the subject of the inspection. The courts have held that, at a minimum,
these include notice, the opportunity to present evidence and to respond to the report of the grand jury’s findings. In
the case of many public officials, the Georgia Court of Appeals has held that the public official must be afforded the
right to appear with counsel before the grand jury, to hear the evidence presented and to give sworn testimony. If the
grand jury conducts its investigation in a manner which is found to have violated due process, any report or general
presentment is subject to being rejected by the court.

Duties Relating to Elections and Voting
Following the certification of the results of a primary, general, or special election, the records of the election are stored
under the authority of the clerk of superior court. Twenty-four months following certification of the election, the records
are to be presented to the grand jury for inspection prior to being destroyed.
Prior to 2003, the grand jury had specific responsibilities to perform regarding the preparation of certain types of voting
machines. When the State of Georgia adopted direct recording electronic (DRE) equipment for use in all counties for
general elections, the requirement that the grand jury oversee the preparation of voting machines became obsolete in all
but a few municipalities that continue to use a voting machine that utilizes a mechanical counter to register the votes cast
for candidates or ballot questions. If this type of equipment is still used in your jurisdiction, the judge will instruct you
concerning these responsibilities and the district attorney can advise you concerning the legal requirements which must
be followed.
Appointments or Nominations Made by the Grand Jury
Offices to which the Grand Jury May Make Appointments or Nominations

Foreperson of the Grand Jury
If the superior court judge who empanels the grand jury does not appoint the foreperson, he or she may
direct the grand jury to elect a foreperson.
County Board of Equalization
Members and alternate members of the County Board of Equalization are appointed by the grand jury for
a three-year term. In the event of a vacancy, the grand jury may appoint a qualified citizen of the county to
serve out the remainder of the term of office.
County Voter Registrars
The grand jury is responsible for submitting to the senior judge of the superior court, a list containing
the names of 10 judicious, intelligent and upright citizens of the county for appointment by the judge as
voter registrars.
Procedures for Appointments Other Than Foreperson

Prior to the grand jury electing, selecting or appointing anyone to any public office, other than foreperson, the clerk
of superior court must publish a notice of the pending selection, election or appointment in the official newspaper of
the county at least once a week for two weeks during a period not more than 60 days prior to the date of the election,
selection or appointment.
Miscellaneous Duties
Setting Compensation of Jurors and Bailiffs

At the fall term, the grand jury fixes the compensation to be paid to grand, petit and coroner’s inquest jurors and bailiffs.
By law, the rate of compensation must be not less than $5 nor more than $50 per day for jurors and not less than $5 nor
more than $70 per day for bailiffs. However, any increase in compensation over and above that which was paid bailiffs
or jurors the previous year must be approved by the governing authority of the county. Any person who is summoned
and appears for service as a grand juror is entitled to be paid regardless of whether or not he or she serves.
Recommend Change of County Line

If a petition to change the county line is received from the judge of the probate court, the grand jury may hold hearings

on the petition. Two-thirds of the grand juries in each affected county must approve the petitions before the issue
may be considered by the governing authorities of the county. The grand jury may also recommend that the Governor
appoint a surveyor if the county line is disputed.
Historic Preservation
The grand jury may, by a majority vote, recommend that the county governing authority provide the probate court a
suitable case or container in which historical materials may be preserved.
Local Duties
In addition to the duties and functions summarized in this section, the General Assembly has enacted laws applicable to
one or a few counties which provide those grand juries with additional duties. Because they do not apply in all counties,
they are beyond the scope of this handbook. If there are local laws which provide that the grand jury in your county has
duties other than those discussed above, the judge or the district attorney will advise you.

General Presentments & Reports
It is customary for the grand jury to make a report to the superior court either at the end of the term or when they have
completed the majority of their work. This report, traditionally known as a general presentment, can contain general
information about the work of the grand jury during the term, their findings resulting from the performance of their civil
duties and making appropriate recommendations in areas within their jurisdiction. The general presentments may also contain
suggestions to the succeeding grand jury.
With some very limited exceptions, the general presentments are merely the recommendations of the grand jurors and are
not self-executing. The grand jury may recommend to the presiding judge that their general presentments be published and
the manner in which they are to be published. The judge is required to review the general presentments and determine if
they can be filed or published.
By statute, the grand jury is required to include certain matters in their general presentments. These include:
A report concerning the results of their inspection of the tax execution docket and cash book of the county tax
collector or tax commissioner. (See p. 17)
A report that the grand jury has inspected the reports of receipts and disbursements of the probate court, clerk of
superior court and county treasurer and found them to be correct. (See p. 17)
A finding regarding the record of inmates at the county jail. (See p. 17)
In preparing general presentments, you must be aware that there are limits imposed by the appellate courts on their contents.
While reports of a general nature concerning areas where the grand jury has a statutory duty to inspect or investigate are
acceptable, courts have repeatedly held that the grand jury cannot include, in a report or general presentment, comments
which charge or accuse identifiable person(s) of misconduct. This, the courts have said, can only be done by a “true bill”
of indictment or special presentment charging such person(s) with a crime.
The reason for this, the Georgia Supreme Court has explained, is that “when an indictment is returned, the accused has the
right of an open hearing in which to be tried and assert his innocence. Reports (or general presentments) . . . offer no such
right to the one defamed . . . [T]he individual who is named in the report or identifiable from it has little if any opportunity
to adequately respond to the report’s accusations.”
Where the grand jury has a clear statutory duty to report its findings, it may make a “fair report[ ] . . . even though such
report[ ] of necessity incidently reflect[s] negligence or incompetence.” In all other instances, the courts hold that the
grand jury may make only “general recommendations” which do not contain “reflections of misconduct.” If the general
presentments go beyond these limits, the court may seal or reject all or a portion of them. Additionally, any person identified
in the general presentment may have the court expunge the critical portions from the public records.
Thus grand jurors, including members of grand jury committees, must exercise both discretion and care in the drafting of
their general presentments if they contain matters which may be interpreted by others as being critical of any identifiable
person or institution. By so doing they will minimize the probability that all or a portion of the general presentments will
be expunged or not accepted by the court.

Index
Convicted felons 8 Interpreter 11 Selection

A Defendant disqualified 11 Judge may excuse 9
Accusation 4 Not resident of county 8
J Statute of limitations 5
Alternates Prior jury service 8 Jurors Stenographer 11
Duties of 9 Public officials 8 Compensation 12, 18
Selection by judge 9 Relative of accused or prosecutor Jury commission 8 T
Term of court 5
B 11, 12 M
Length of 9
Bailiff Victim of crime 11 Malicious prosecution 4, 15
Appointed by sheriff 10 District attorney Meetings 11 V
Compensation 12, 18 Assistants 11 Misdemeanor 4 Voter registrars
Duties 10, 11 Duties of 11 Nomination by grand jury 18
Oath of 10 Inspection of 16 O Voting by grand jury
Return of indictments by 11, 15 Legal advisor to grand jury 11 Oath In criminal cases 14
Indictment or special Foreperson 9
C presentment 14 Grand jury 9 W
Change of county line Presentation of criminal cases 11 Secrecy required by 12 Witnesses
Duty of grand jury 18 Subpoena witnesses 11 Witnesses, administered by D.A. 14 Calling 14
Civil functions or duties Doorkeeper Witness’s, criminal cases 14 Civil cases - subpoena for 16
Child Abuse Protocol Committee 17 Doorkeeper 10 Witness in civil inspection or Civil functions of grand jury 16, 17
Clerk of superior court 16, 17 Duties investigation 17 Criminal cases - subpoena for 13
County depository 16 Examination of in criminal cases 14
County jail 16, 17
Contained in charge 10 P Oath in civil cases 17
County line 18 Peace officer
County offices 16 Oath contains 9 Oath in civil inspections or
County public authorities 16, 1 Criminal proceeding against 15 investigations 17
Setting compensation of jurors and Penalties
County tax collector 17, 20 bailiffs 18 Oath in criminal cases 14
County treasurer 28, 30 Contempt 10 Questioning by district attorney 14
District attorney 16 E Criminal prosecution 10
Education, county board of 16 Elections, primary and general Person 5
Education, state board of 17 Duty of grand jury 18 Presentment
Historic preservation 19 General 4, 17, 20
F General, content of 20
Inspections 16, 17
Felony 4 General, expungment by court 20
Investigations 16, 17
Capital 4 General, limitations 20
Jail inmate records 17
Foreperson General, publication of 20
Judge of probate court 16, 17
Assistant 10 General, rejection by court 20
Local duties 19
Deputy 10 General, rights of identifiable
Procedure for appointments 18
Duties of 10 persons 20
Sheriff 17
Selection by judge or election, judge Special 5
Tax commissioner 17, 20
may permit 9, 10 Probable cause 5, 14, 15
Clerk, grand jury
Previous grand jury 11 Prosecutor 5
Duties 10
Previous grand jury 11 G Public officers
Clerk of superior court Grand jury room Criminal proceedings against 15
Inspection of 16, 17 Access to, restricted 10, 12 Disqualified from service 8
Publication of notices 20
H Q
Committees Qualifications 8
Appointment 16 History 6
Colonial 6 Convicted felons disqualified 8
Compensation 12, 18 Elderly may be excused 8
Constitution, U.S. Criticism of grand jury 7
Early 6 Elected officials disqualified 8
Fifth Amendment 7 Prior service as juror 8
County Board of Equalization Evolution 6, 7
First grand jury 6 Resident of county 8
Selection by grand jury 18
Limits placed on 7 Qualifying 9
Court
Revolutionary War 7 Quorum 11
Charging the grand jury 10
Juvenile 4 Role in Georgia 7 R
Magistrate 4, 13 I Reports
State 5 Immunity from civil actions 10 Contents 20
Superior 5 Indictment 4 Expungment by court 20
Criminal proceedings Deferring action on 14 Limitations on contents 20
Deliberation by grand jury 14, 15 No bill 4, 15 Rejection by court 20
Duties in 14, 15 Return of 14, 15 S
D Special presentment 5 Secrecy of grand jury proceedings
Disqualification True bill 5, 15 Disclosure, when permitted 12
Contributors of funds 11 When required 13 Oath Requires 12

Juror Notes

Thank you
Thank you for reviewing this handbook to better understand your duties as a grand juror. Serving on a grand jury is an
extremely high honor. We greatly appreciate your participation and hope that you will enjoy this opportunity to assist in
Georgia’s system of justice. By performing these essential duties, you will provide your government and your community
with an invaluable service.
ACKNOWLEDGMENTS
This is the fifth edition of the Grand Jury Handbook. The first edition was prepared in 1972 by George H. Lawrence,
district attorney of the Ocmulgee Judicial Circuit and Tony Hight of the district attorneys Association of Georgia.
The fourth edition was prepared by General Counsel Charles C. Olson with the assistance of numerous staff members and
reviewed by a select committee of experienced prosecuting attorneys. This edition is a reorganization and an update of design
of the fourth edition. Users of this handbook are encouraged to submit comments and suggestions for improvements to:
Katherine Dean, Communications Coordinator & Designer

Prosecuting Attorneys’ Council of Georgia
104 Marietta street nw, suite 400
atlanta, Georgia 30303
404-969-4001
Copyright April, 2006

Prosecuting Attorneys’ Council of Georgia
Atlanta, Georgia 30303
All rights reserved

Shocking Revelations from the Rosenberg Grand Jury Files by Roger Roots
Home | Blog | Subscribe | Podcasts | Donate
Shocking Revelations from the

Rosenberg Grand Jury Files
by Roger Roots
by Roger Roots
Recently by Roger Roots: Constitutional Dead Letters
The executions of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg in 1953 have gotten a

fresh look in the past two years. An association of historians and
journalists have unearthed the long-secret grand jury transcripts from the
Rosenberg case after years of litigation. Their findings have been
released by trickles on a website and in a few short news articles in
America’s daily papers.
Most living Americans probably don’t know much about the Rosenberg
case. Perhaps all they know is that it was a case of a man and wife
accused of spying or leaking some of America’s atomic secrets to the
Soviet Union during the Cold War. Most who know that much are
probably aware that there has been controversy surrounding the case for
decades. Since the 1950s, opinions about the Rosenberg executions have
tracked closely with peoples’ political views. Those on the Left have
long thought the Rosenberg prosecution represented bare-knuckled
McCarthyesque hysteria, while those on the right have generally viewed
the Rosenberg case to have been a soundly proven case of espionage.
The recent grand jury revelations provide fodder for both positions. On
the one hand, they shatter all doubts about whether Julius Rosenberg
was a Communist spy. He was. His own sons, Michael and Robert
Meeropol, who have long been champions of their parents’
exonerations, have partially recanted and resigned themselves to the
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig8/roots3.1.1.html (1 of 6)7/10/2010 10:28:45 PM

reality that at least their father really was a committed Communist spy in
common cause with the Soviet Union. It is now undeniable that Julius
Rosenberg and Martin Sobell forwarded certain military information to
the Soviets (although not the atomic secrets that allowed Russia to
produce atomic bombs – those secrets were transmitted by high-ranking
U.S. government officials, including the Assistant Secretary of the
Treasury). On the other hand, the transcripts reveal that Ethel Rosenberg
was almost certainly innocent of the crimes she was executed for
committing. It appears that Ethel’s conviction was the result of perjured
testimony by two government witnesses – her brother- and sister-in-law,
David and Ruth Greenglass – who both testified at trial that Ethel
Rosenberg had typed up notes regarding U.S. military systems provided
by David Greenglass from the U.S. National Laboratory at Las Alamos.
In her recently unearthed 1950 grand jury testimony, Ruth Greenglass
admitted it was she (Greenglass) – and not Ethel Rosenberg – who
transcribed the notes, and in handwritten form.
The differing versions of events described in the 1950 grand jury

hearings (which were secret) and the 1951 trial proceedings cannot be
reconciled. Ruth Greenglass changed her story between the grand jury
hearings and the trial so as to falsely implicate Ethel Rosenberg. We
know from several accounts that lawyers for the Justice Department
coerced, threatened and coached the witnesses for days before the
Rosenberg trial. The government’s star witness, Harry Gold, had been
prepped by four hundred hours of coaching by prosecutors and FBI
agents. The Feds apparently charged Ethel solely to coerce Julius into
confessing – which he refused to do. Prosecutors then fabricated the
story that Ethel had typed up some atomic secrets from notes provided
by David Greenglass in order to bolster their otherwise shoddy case
against her. The prosecutor said in closing arguments that Ethel "sat at
that typewriter and struck the keys, blow by blow, against her country" –
the words that are most remembered from the trial.
Lost in the discussion of the transcripts has been their astounding

revelations regarding the grand jury process itself. How could it take 50
years to reveal these government lies? How could the government
conceal for half a century evidence that material testimony in one of the
most closely watched trials of the twentieth century was perjured? The
grand jury revelations highlight the fact that the grand jury process in
the United States – especially at the federal level – has been hijacked by
the government.

Ironically, the recent release of the Rosenberg grand jury transcripts is a

major break from contemporary practice. It is highly unusual for federal
courts to order federal grand jury transcripts to be made public –
especially after cases are closed. Federal courts have even punished a
reporter for airing the names of witnesses who testified three decades
earlier in Jim Garrison's grand jury investigation of President Kennedy's
assassination.
The grand jury is an ancient common law institution whose original

purpose was to protect people from the prosecutorial power of the
government. Under the Fifth Amendment, the Constitution’s Framers
intended that no criminal charges could ever be initiated by the
government alone. A citizen panel of 23 people (more or less) was
supposed to act as an obstacle to prosecutors and ensure that any
prosecution be preapproved by common people. Yet today most
commentators agree that the government can get any grand jury to
"indict a ham sandwich." Federal "indictment rates" greater than 99
percent have been reported in some years. In 2001, federal grand juries
declined to indict in only 21 cases nationwide. "These numbers suggest
that, whatever the reason, the federal grand jury now exercises very little
power as a shield between the government and its citizens."
The story of how this once-proud institution fell under the control of the
very prosecutors it was supposed to control is a long and tragic one.
During the nineteenth century, all three branches of government joined
together to silence and deaden the institution. Over time, it became
common for government prosecutors to be present in grand jury
hearings (a practice strictly forbidden at the time of the Founding), and
eventually prosecutors became managers of the proceedings. In 1946, all
three branches approved the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure, which
purported to codify for the first time the common law rules that govern
criminal procedure at the federal level. The rules pertaining to grand
jury practice, however, were deliberately altered to evade the plain
language of the Fifth Amendment ("No person shall be held to answer
for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or
indictment of a Grand Jury").
A presentment is an independent statement of a grand jury not

necessarily approved by a prosecutor. For centuries before the
enactment of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure, grand juries
would issue presentments exposing government misconduct or accusing
people of crimes known to the grand jurors themselves. Occasionally,

grand juries issued presentments that openly proclaimed a person’s

innocence in defiance of the government’s allegations. The government
rule-makers in 1946 deliberately and calculatingly eliminated the
possibility of a federal grand juries issuing non-government-approved
statements or conclusions of any kind. Since 1946, any publicized
presentments by federal grand jurors have been prohibited as violations
of grand jury "secrecy" rules. Indeed, grand jurors that release
statements of any kind are now subject to possible five-year prison
sentences.
By the time of the Rosenberg case, the grand jury process had been
transformed into a rubber stamp for the government. Federal prosecutors
now dispense all evidence, witnesses and testimony to grand jurors, who
then retire to a deliberation room to vote on whether to issue
indictments. Because the grand jurors are only given the government’s
version of events and are generally unable to investigate matters on their
own (like grand juries did from the Founding period through the end of
the nineteenth century), they almost always vote according to the Justice
Department’s wishes. In rare instances when grand juries refuse to
indict, federal prosecutors simply present their same claims to a second
(or third, fourth or fifth) grand jury until an indictment is issued. In such
cases, prosecutors have been known to lie to the later grand juries by
falsely telling them that the first grand jury wanted to indict but ran out
of time, etc. There is never any punishment meted out for such lies.
And there is more. The Federal Rules strip grand jurors of their rightful
control over the recordings of grand jury testimony, notes, and "any
transcript prepared from those notes." Rule 6(e) places all grand jury
transcripts in the hands of the U.S. Attorneys Office, giving an awesome
power to the government never known under the common law. Even
federal judges don’t have easy access to the transcripts. In recent
decades, prosecutors have perfected the practices of granting immunity
to selected witnesses, denying it to others, concealing inconvenient
testimony or evidence from the public and generally leveraging facts
and accusations into an overwhelming advantage over targeted
defendants. Defense attorneys, not even aware of what is said in the
transcripts, are usually unable to challenge them.
What’s more, the U.S. Supreme Court has assured that this machine of
tyranny can virtually never be challenged. In two cases since the 1970s,
the Court has held that grand jury improprieties are never appealable
after conviction and can only be challenged in the most unusual

circumstances via interlocutory appeal (an extremely rare and disfavored

pretrial device). Of course, defense lawyers are systematically deprived
of the means to make such challenges because the prosecutors keep all
evidence of the improprieties in their own hands, and courts of appeals
almost never grant hearings for interlocutory appeals in criminal cases
even if by miracle some evidence of grand jury misconduct surfaces.
It is noteworthy that the very grand jury secrecy that now prevents grand
jurors from revealing prosecutorial misconduct – the same secrecy that
kept the Ruth Greenglass perjury in the Rosenberg case concealed from
the public for 50 years – now operates as a mockery of the original
intent behind grand jury privacy. Under the common law, grand jury
secrecy was a protection for grand jurors from intimidation by the
government. It is said to have first arisen in England in 1681 when the
King demanded that a grand jury indict his rivals – the Earl of
Shaftesbury and Steven Colledge – for treason. The grand jury won the
right to hold its proceedings in secret – away from the watchful eyes of
the Crown prosecutor. For two and a half centuries afterward, grand
juries had the right to operate in secret – but to waive secrecy and issue
public presentments when they concluded their investigations. Today,
however, the Federal Rules place the prosecutor directly within the
grand jury room and expose any grand jurors who expose governmental
improprieties to possible five-year prison sentences.
If the Justice Department’s libraries of grand jury transcripts were ever

thrown open to public scrutiny, they would speak of prosecutorial
misconduct on a massive scale. We know this because those few cases
such as the Rosenberg case in which grand jury proceedings have been
unsealed have revealed a level of misconduct and abuse by prosecutors
that can only be described as systematic and pervasive. One federal
judge recently wrote that in twenty-three years of occasionally
examining grand jury transcripts to resolve pretrial motions, he had
never once seen a case where prosecutors gave grand juries accurate
legal instructions.
For all its infamy and notoriety, the Rosenberg case is fairly typical of
the systematic injustice that federal criminal law has degenerated into.
As with so many other federal cases, the most guilty and loathsome
characters (e.g., Ruth and David Greenglass) went unpunished or were
given light sentences, while minor players – Julius and Ethel Rosenberg
– were prosecuted to the max. The government’s most fearsome
prosecutions were and are reserved for those who refused to ally

themselves with the state. David Greenglass, who was caught red-
handed and quickly became a government witness to save his own skin,
watched as his own lies sent his innocent sister to the electric chair.
And, of course, the federal prosecutors who suborned perjury in the
same case were lauded as great heroes. One of them became a justice on
the New York Supreme Court.
November 18, 2009
Dr. Roger Roots, J.D., Ph.D. [send him mail] is an assistant professor
of Sociology and Criminal Justice at the New York Institute of
Technology.
Copyright © 2009 by LewRockwell.com. Permission to reprint in whole or in

part is gladly granted, provided full credit is given.
Back to LewRockwell.com Home Page

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